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"They Couldn’t Take My Soul": Anthony Ray Hinton on His Exoneration After 30 Years on Death Row — Transcript

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0:00And this is democracyow democracynow.org
0:02the Warren Peace Report. I'm Amy
0:04Goodman. We begin today's show in
0:07Alabama where a prisoner Anthony Ray
0:09Hinton was released Friday after
0:11spending nearly 30 years on death row.
0:15For all of us that say that we believe
0:17in justice, this is the case to start
0:20showing because I shouldn't sit on death
0:23row 30 years. All they had to do was
0:25test the gun. But when you think you
0:28high and mighty and you above the law,
0:30you don't have to answer to nobody. But
0:32I got news for you. Everybody that
0:34played a part in sending me to death
0:36row, you will answer to God. That's all
0:38I have to say.
0:40Anthony Ray Hinton was convicted of
0:42murdering two fast food managers in
0:44separate robberies in 1985. He was 29
0:48years old at the time. The only evidence
0:52linking Hinton to the crimes were
0:54bullets that allegedly had markings
0:56matching a revolver that belonged to
0:57Hinton's mother. There were no
0:59fingerprints or eyewitness testimony.
1:02After Hinton was convicted, subsequent
1:04tests found the bullets at the scene
1:06could not be matched to the gun he was
1:09accused of using. Last year, the US
1:11Supreme Court threw out his conviction,
1:14concluding Hinton had been inadequately
1:16represented at trial. Hinton could not
1:19afford a defense lawyer his
1:20court-appointed attorney used as a
1:23witness a firearms expert he knew to be
1:26incompetent. According to the Equal
1:28Justice Initiative, which won his
1:30release, Hinton is among the longest
1:33serving death row prisoners ever to be
1:35freed after presenting evidence of
1:38innocence. We go now to Montgomery,
1:40Alabama, where we're joined by Anthony
1:43Ray Hinton himself, Just Freed, as well
1:46as Brian Stevenson, founder and
1:48executive director of the Equal Justice
1:50Initiative, the attorney who has worked
1:52on death row penalty cases in the Deep
1:54South for decades and represented
1:56Anthony Ray Hinton since 1999. He's the
2:00author of the book Just Mercy, a story
2:02of justice and redemption. His book was
2:05just nominated um for the Andrew
2:08Carnegie Medal for Excellence run by the
2:10American Library Association. We welcome
2:12you both to Democracy Now. Anthony
2:15Hinton, let's begin with you. How does
2:17it feel to be free?
2:20Oh, it feel wonderful. Uh a little scary
2:23at time, especially when I've been out
2:25to the malls and I'm not used to being
2:28around uh that many people at one at a
2:31certain setting.
2:33Where were you, Anthony, in prison when
2:36you heard that you would be freed? When
2:39was it?
2:41Uh,
2:42I was out in the day room at the
2:45Birmingham Jeff County Jail and uh just
2:49had got through talking to one of the
2:50attorney from EJI and then he told me to
2:54call Mr. Stevenson right away and I
2:56called Mr. Stevenson and Mr. Stevenson
2:59gave me the news, the wonderful news.
3:04Brian Stevenson,
3:06why did you take on this case? How did
3:09you hear about Anthony Ray Hinton in
3:11prison for at the point you took it on?
3:14Um, I mean, he was freed after 30 years.
3:17Um, how did you hear about the case?
3:20Well, we actually monitor almost all of
3:23the cases involving people sentenced to
3:24death here in Alabama. There is no
3:26public defender system. There is no
3:28right to counsel. We've got people on
3:30death row here who are literally dying
3:32for legal assistance. And so we're
3:33pretty familiar with all of the cases.
3:36We had recruited some lawyers to
3:38represent Mr. Hinton. But it's a very
3:40difficult thing to take on if you don't
3:42have a lot of uh resources and if you're
3:44far away, it's hard. So we had known
3:46about the case for some time. Mr. Hinton
3:47and I had actually met many years
3:49earlier. when his lawyers could no
3:51longer represent him, we decided to take
3:53the case on and and I got personally
3:55involved. Uh, and I just have to say how
3:58extraordinary it is to be sitting next
4:00to uh to my friend and my client. We've
4:03spent so many hours together at home in
4:06prison, but we've never been able to sit
4:08together in suits in a place like this.
4:10And I have to say, it's an extraordinary
4:12extraordinary feeling.
4:14So, Brian, can you explain this case?
4:16You took it on in 1999.
4:19um go back to 1985 and um what happened,
4:24what evidence wasn't presented, what
4:26evidence was presented.
4:28Well, in many ways, this is a very
4:30powerful demonstration of the critique
4:32of the American criminal justice system,
4:34uh which we contend treats you better if
4:36you're rich and guilty than if you're
4:37poor and innocent. Uh there was a great
4:40deal of concern in the community because
4:41these restaurant managers had been
4:43murdered. Uh they had these bullets. Uh
4:46the they falsely claimed that these
4:49bullets could be linked to a single
4:50weapon. They then uh falsely claimed
4:53that that weapon was Mr. Hinton's
4:55because his lawyer uh was only paid
4:58$1600 to represent him. He couldn't get
5:00an expert that was competent to disprove
5:03that. He got someone who was visually
5:04impaired, a civil engineer, and the jury
5:07convicted Mr. Hinton. Uh you know, had
5:10he had the resources to get the kind of
5:12legal help he needed, he would have
5:13never been convicted. Uh the real
5:16problem was uh years later when we
5:18developed the evidence that showed that
5:20these bullets could not be matched to a
5:22single gun and that it wasn't Mr.
5:24Hinton's gun, the state then refused for
5:2716 years to even retest the evidence.
5:30And that for me was the most distressing
5:32uh part of this case. Uh it was uh
5:36indifference. It was irresponsible. It
5:39was really unconscionable that they
5:41chose uh to risk executing an innocent
5:45person over risking the perception that
5:48they were somehow making a mistake or
5:50not being tough on crime. And they
5:52fought us tooth and nail. And I have to
5:55say it was quite uh an unlikely and rare
5:58occurrence uh that we could get the
6:00United States Supreme Court to intervene
6:02when we did. Had they not intervened, I
6:04think the risk of a wrongful execution
6:06would have been very very high. Uh
6:09there's been no accountability. Uh the
6:11experts have not been held accountable.
6:13Uh the prosecutors have not been held
6:14accountable. There's been no apology.
6:16There's been no offer of any kind of
6:18assistance. And I think this case is a
6:20really shameful example of all the
6:23reforms that are desperately needed. I
6:25might also say, Amy, that race was a
6:27factor here, too. I can't leave that
6:28out. Uh the uh investigators who worked
6:31on this case had been previously charged
6:33in federal court for torturing black
6:36prisoners. They had been using cattle
6:38prods to coersse uh statements out of
6:40black prisoners. The prosecutor claimed
6:42that Mr. Hinton was innocent by looking
6:45at him looking at him. He said he could
6:46tell he was evil just by looking at his
6:48face. That prosecutor had been reversed
6:51many times for excluding
6:52African-Americans from serving on
6:54juries. And Mr. Hinton wasn't convicted
6:56in part because of the burden of the
6:58presumption of guilt that gets assigned
7:00to too many black and brown people in
7:01this country uh when they're accused of
7:03a crime.
7:05Now, Anthony Ray Hinton, you were on
7:07death row for nearly 30 years. Did you
7:10ever face an execution date?
7:14No, I didn't. Thank God I did never
7:16faced the execution date. Uh, I thought
7:20about it a lot of time, but I, like I
7:22stated before, I just had faith that God
7:24would not let me be executed for
7:27something that I didn't do.
7:32Before 1999, that was um, well over a
7:35decade after you were imprisoned on
7:38death row, before EJI, the Equal Justice
7:40Initiative, Brian Stevenson, took your
7:42case on. Did you ever think that your
7:46verdict would be overturned? Who could
7:49you appeal to?
7:52Well, to be honest with you, when you is
7:55placed in a on death row, you have to
7:59have strong faith. and the lawyer that I
8:02had uh that represented me during trial
8:06uh once the case go through the Alabama
8:08criminal court appeal and you lose there
8:12uh you on your own. So I had wrote Mr.
8:18Stevenson and asked for assistance from
8:21them. And he got me an attorney out of
8:23Boston. And to be honest with you, the
8:28lawyer that from Boston come down and
8:30talk to me. And he stayed on the case
8:34maybe a year or so, a couple years. And
8:38uh it just wasn't working out in the way
8:41that I thought the case should be going.
8:43And uh I remember specifically that he
8:46told me he was trying to get me a life
8:48of doubt. And I told him uh get that for
8:50someone that is guilty. I'm innocent. I
8:53need someone that would believe in me
8:55and would fight for my life as hard as
8:57they could. And that's where Mr.
8:59Stevenson them came in.
9:02And this issue of money. I mean the
9:05ballistics expert explain his limited
9:08vision let alone his incompetence. And
9:12was money the key issue here, Anthony?
9:15Um, being able to hire a competent
9:19ballistics expert?
9:23Uh, yes, money was uh very important.
9:26Uh, not only uh the expert that I have
9:30at the time of my trial, he was blind in
9:34one eye. uh he when he went to the
9:38forensial signs to check the gun, he
9:41didn't even know how to turn on the
9:42basic uh machine. He had to ask for help
9:46to turn on the machine. And that should
9:50have been a red flag for those uh men
9:53that's sitting there watching in
9:55watching this man ask for help. And not
9:57only did uh that, he said once he got up
10:00under the micros uh scope, all he could
10:03see was his finger. So he testified in
10:06court that uh he had very limited uh
10:10eyesight. He had very limited in the uh
10:14telescope that he was using. Uh I just
10:16don't understand how a judge of anyone
10:20could qualify him as being an expert.
10:22And they kept using the term what he
10:26know more than the average person. Uh, I
10:29think it's some laws need to be changed
10:32around here. Just because you read a
10:34magazine about uh, surgery don't mean I
10:37can come up to New York and uh, give you
10:40a open heart surgery. And so this is
10:43what we need to try to change in uh,
10:46Alabama uh, people just getting up on
10:48the stand and testifying and considering
10:51yourself an expert.
10:53How did you maintain the sense of humor
10:55you have Anthony? I mean you were well
10:58respected by both the guards on death
11:01row and also other prisoners.
11:04Oh yes. Uh I think uh
11:08I was born with this sense of humor and
11:11that's something that the 20 30 years
11:14that they took from me. They couldn't
11:16take my soul. They couldn't take uh the
11:19fact that I love to make people laugh. I
11:21think you can find humor in anything.
11:25And I used that as a tool to uh make
11:29other people forget their problem. Uh I
11:33think it was my biggest asset that I had
11:37that uh having a sense of humor. Uh I
11:40recall sometime u just sitting up there
11:43and correction officer would come by and
11:46I said, "Hey, I need to go home for an
11:49hour and I promise you I come right
11:51back." Uh just different little stuff
11:53that I would say every day uh and try to
11:56get myself through it and as well as my
11:58other uh inmates that were surrounded
12:01with me. Brian Stevenson, the state's
12:03evidence of a match discredited by three
12:07highly qualified firearms examiners,
12:09including the former chief of the FBI's
12:12firearm and tool marks unit, who
12:14testified in 2002 that the bullets from
12:18all three crimes could not be matched to
12:20a single gun at all, much less to
12:23Anony's mother's gun. 2002 when you talk
12:27about they just wouldn't review it.
12:29Aren't there laws that say you have to
12:31review um exonerating evidence? I mean,
12:34the Supreme Court unanimously overturned
12:36the verdict.
12:38No, you're absolutely right, Amy. Um but
12:41no, there aren't those kinds of laws. Uh
12:43we rely on the integrity uh of
12:46prosecutors and the integrity of law
12:49enforcement officials uh to do what's
12:51required. And in this case, there was an
12:54absence of integrity. There was an
12:56absence of leadership. There was an
12:58absence of goodwill. And that's the
13:01challenge that we face right now. Mr.
13:03Hinton is the 152nd person to be
13:06exonerated after being sentenced to
13:08death. That means for every nine people
13:10who've been executed in this country,
13:11we've now identified one innocent
13:13person. And if we had integrity, uh we
13:16wouldn't we'd stop executing people
13:18until we dealt with these problems of
13:20unreliability. Uh but that's what was
13:22missing in this case. We went to every
13:24attorney general in the state of Alabama
13:26during four administrations.
13:28We repeatedly asked the prosecutor and
13:31they just decided to see if they could
13:34get away with holding on to this
13:36conviction. And it really is shameful
13:38because while Mr. Hinton is a remarkable
13:40human being who had just incredible
13:42resolve, uh he was on death row when 53
13:46other people were executed. They took
13:48them just a few feet from where he was
13:50housed and put them in the electric
13:51chair and strapped them on gurnies and
13:53they tried to kill him every day of his
13:55time on death row. And I I I I still
13:59think we've got great challenges. There
14:01are some parts of the country that have
14:02created uh conviction integrity units.
14:05We don't have them in Alabama. And I'd
14:08love to see the Supreme Court actually
14:09create some requirements that would make
14:11it easier for us to insist on the kind
14:13of testing we were denied for 16 years.
14:18You were the 152nd person to be
14:20exonerated um from death row, Anthony
14:24Ray Hinton. Um when you came outside,
14:27your first reaction to standing outside
14:30on the other side of the bars.
14:34[Music]
14:35uh
14:37thanking God all along uh seeing so many
14:40cameras and families and friends.
14:45It was a long time,
14:49but I just felt so relieved at knowing
14:51that I was finally being freed for
14:54something that I've been telling people,
14:56streaming to people that I didn't do.
14:59And uh I just it was a feeling like I
15:02never felt before. And I can't really
15:05explain it to you perhaps where you can
15:08understand it, but from where I've been
15:10for 30 years, just to be able to come
15:12out and knowing that I wasn't going to
15:14have to be locked back up is just an
15:17amazing feeling.
15:20Your mother died in 2002
15:24when you were in prison.
15:28Yes.
15:29Were you able to visit her grave when
15:31you left?
15:34Yes, I went to a grave.
15:39That was that was my rock. That was
15:44everything I had.
15:48And
15:50I would have loved been able to say,
15:54"They finally got a right mama
15:57and I'm home." I know she would have
15:58been the happiest person. She probably
16:01would have cooked me all my favorites
16:03and we would have just sat down and
16:05hugged and
16:08I wouldn't have pro I know she wouldn't
16:09have let me left and I definitely
16:11wouldn't have left her home. When you
16:13come up my mother had to be my father.
16:16My father lost his mind when I was very
16:18young
16:19and my mother instilled in us to do the
16:22right thing at all time and she was just
16:26a extremely ordinary woman and I loved
16:30her more than life itself and I just
16:33felt that
16:35I owed it to her
16:37to fight as hard as I could because she
16:41didn't raise no killer. And I thank God
16:45that he brought me through. And I'm
16:48pretty sure that she's jumping around in
16:51heaven
16:52saying, "Thank you, Jesus."
16:55Brian Stevenson, what about
16:57compensation? Anthony Ray Hentton was on
17:01death row for 30 years before he was
17:04freed, an innocent man.
17:08Well, there's no amount of money that
17:10can uh totally compensate you for that.
17:12they took something from him that they
17:14don't have the power to give back. Uh
17:16but I think they ought to want to
17:19initiate anything they can do uh to pay
17:22for some of the outrageous injustice
17:24that this case creates. Uh but I I think
17:27if there's going to really be any kind
17:28of meaningful response to this, uh not
17:31only should he be compensated, but
17:33people should be held accountable. Uh
17:35people should apologize. People should
17:37do some soularching. We should create
17:39some procedures that mandate that when
17:43there's evidence that suggests the
17:44person has been wrongly convicted that
17:46that evidence has to be reviewed. Mr.
17:47Hinton passed a polygraph test when he
17:49was first arrested. He was locked in a
17:51warehouse working when one of these
17:53crimes took place and they simply
17:55ignored that and we need to change those
17:57procedures. The Supreme Court has
17:59actually immunized uh prosecutors and
18:01law enforcement officers and judges uh
18:04and the Thompson case that was decided a
18:06couple of years ago. I think that's a
18:07wrongly decided decision that should be
18:09changed. We've got to incentivize
18:11greater commitment and responsibility in
18:13these kinds of cases. Uh and then
18:15finally, I think uh there has to be the
18:17creation of the kind of integrity
18:18conviction units that are too infrequent
18:22in in this country. Uh we're going to
18:24have to mandate some reforms here. I I
18:26just don't believe that we can rely on
18:28the goodwill of the people who have been
18:30elected, particularly when they've acted
18:32as irresponsibly as they've acted uh in
18:35Mr. Hinton's case. I mean, explain that.
18:37In one of the murders that took place of
18:40a fast food manager, Anthony was 15
18:44miles away, working in a place that was
18:47locked up, so you couldn't get out. And
18:50also this polygraph test.
18:53Yes. So, yeah, there were three crimes.
18:54Actually, they only charged him with the
18:56two murders, but there was a third crime
18:58where the surviving victim uh there was
19:00a surviving victim and that took place
19:02at a Quincy's restaurant in Bessemer. Um
19:06Mr. Hinton, it it took the crime took
19:08place around 12:15 in the morning. Mr.
19:11Hinton was working at a Bruno's
19:13warehouse, a a supermarket warehouse. He
19:16clocked in at 11:57 p.m. He was seen by
19:20the security guard uh going in. his
19:23supervisor gave him uh his work
19:25instructions for the night. A guy named
19:27Tom Dah at 12:10 uh the supervisor saw
19:30him repeatedly over the next several
19:32hours. There was no way that he could
19:34have committed this crime and they knew
19:36that. They absolutely knew that. Uh but
19:39because they had this gun and this false
19:41testimony, they decided to persist. They
19:44gave him a polygraph. He passed the
19:46polygraph. Uh they said that the car
19:48that was used in this crime was a big
19:51old mobile which a big Buick that had
19:53been uh reclaimed. He didn't own a car
19:55like that. He was driving a small uh a
19:57Nissan and they just ignored all of
19:59that. And that's where this presumption
20:01of guilt that gets assigned to black and
20:03brown people became a barrier. Uh if he
20:06had been presumed innocent, no
20:07reasonable jury would have convicted
20:09him.
20:09You mentioned
20:10presume guilty.
20:11You mentioned a a integrity conviction
20:15unit. What do you mean by this?
20:18There are some offices that have
20:19basically made a commitment uh to begin
20:22looking at cases where there is evidence
20:24of innocence. We've got, you know, our
20:26prison population has gone from 300,000
20:28in 1972 to 2.3 million people today.
20:32There's never been a time in America
20:33when we have more innocent people in
20:36jails and prisons than we have right
20:37now. We've invested in prisons. We've
20:40invested in policing. We've invested in
20:42prosecutors. We've invested in judges.
20:44We have not invested in the defense
20:46function to protect people from wrongful
20:48convictions. They don't have a right to
20:50counsel. They can't get to court. So
20:52only when you create uh these units can
20:54you really uh push the state to take
20:57seriously these claims. There's a
20:59prosecutor in Dallas that has done this.
21:00There are some places across the country
21:02where if you have compelling evidence
21:04that you've been wrongly convicted, they
21:06will initiate the investigation. That
21:09does not exist in Alabama. doesn't exist
21:10in most states, but it needs to given
21:13the incredible evidence that we have
21:15that there are so many wrongly convicted
21:18uh and condemned people uh in our jails
21:20and prisons.
21:22Anthony Ray Hinton, can you describe the
21:25cell you were held in for nearly 30
21:28years?
21:30Yes, it's uh 5x7.
21:34You have uh a bed that is mounted to the
21:38wall. You have your toilet and
21:42you got mash wire in front of the cell.
21:45Uh you got a little slot where they
21:47bring you your trays. Uh the flows is
21:52concrete. You don't have no uh
21:56ventilation to uh for air. Uh
22:02it's
22:04was dark. Now they had put some lights
22:07uh come through and fix the lights. So
22:09uh it's just a smallest the smallest
22:12sale and smallest room you can imagine
22:15uh being uh on death row.
22:19The way people were killed um on your
22:22death row, how many in the time that you
22:26were on death row? And what were the
22:30methods used?
22:33Uh when I was uh there first got there
22:36in ' 87, the method was uh primarily the
22:39electric chair and it was about 30 uh
22:45yard I would say from uh my cell and the
22:50next morning by using electric chair you
22:52could actually smell the flush of the
22:54person that they had executed that night
22:56before.
22:58Uh so they probably executed maybe 20 25
23:04uh
23:05in the electric and a few in the uh
23:11with the uh ger
23:15Brian Stevenson the equal just
23:18initiative um equal justice initiative
23:20published a major report that we talked
23:22to you about lynching in America
23:24confronting the legacy of racial terror.
23:27Do you see a connection between lynching
23:30and death row?
23:33I do. I I think that uh we created
23:36there's a narrative of racial difference
23:38that emerged in this country actually
23:40during the time of slavery. Uh when Mr.
23:42Hinton and I got together this morning,
23:43we paused outside our office where we
23:45have these signs that talk about the
23:47slave trade and we dehumanized people of
23:49color. We demonized them. We said that
23:51they were different. We said that they
23:52were dangerous. We said that we could
23:54own them to civilize them. And that
23:56narrative of racial difference was never
23:59really confronted. Uh the Emancipation
24:01Proclamation didn't deal with it. The
24:0213th Amendment didn't deal with it. And
24:04then we had these decades of lynching,
24:06of terrorism directed at
24:09African-Americans because that same
24:11presumption of dangerousness and guilt
24:13made people comfortable doing horrific
24:15things to people during the course of
24:17these lynchings. uh when the federal
24:19government threatened to intervene again
24:21in the south, there was great pressure
24:23to move the lynchings indoor and that
24:25was really the beginning of the modern
24:27death penalty. Uh these short,
24:29unreliable, meaningless trials where
24:32people were presumed guilty and quickly
24:34sentenced to death. And that legacy of
24:37inadequate justice that begins with the
24:40Scottsboro boys and continues in the 40s
24:42and 50s and 60s and 70s and was on
24:45display in the 1980s when Mr. Hinton uh
24:48was wrongly convicted has never really
24:51been challenged. And so yes, I don't
24:53understand why the state of Alabama who
24:56has killed so many people of color
24:58wrongly. The body the bodies of
25:00thousands of black men and and women are
25:02buried in the ground where we are
25:04sitting as a result of racial injustice
25:06and bigotry and ignorance. And yet we
25:09persist. Our death penalty 84% of the
25:13people who have been executed by capital
25:14punishment in this state are black. Uh
25:17we uh have a death penalty that's
25:19racially biased in so many ways. The
25:21prosecutor who prosecuted uh Mr. Hinton
25:23had been rehears reversed several times
25:26for intentionally excluding in an
25:28illegal manner African-Americans from
25:30serving on juries. And yet he was
25:32allowed to keep prosecuting cases. Uh
25:35we've got uh 65% of all murder victims
25:37in this state are black, but 80% of the
25:40people on death row are there for crimes
25:42involving victims who are white. The
25:43evidence of racial bias is so extreme
25:46and so overwhelming. And yet we do
25:48nothing. And you can't understand that
25:50without understanding lynching, without
25:52understanding slavery, without
25:54understanding segregation. And we won't
25:56overcome these problems until we start
25:59talking about these issues differently.
26:01And I hope that Mr. Hinton's case can
26:02really begin the kind of soulsearching
26:05and honest dialogue that we need to have
26:07not only about our biased criminal
26:10justice system, but about the way we
26:12tolerate uh inequality and unfair
26:14treatment of the poor and people of
26:16color.
26:18Well, I want to thank you both for being
26:19with us. Brian Stevenson of the Equal
26:22Justice Initiative um attorney who
26:25represented um Anthony Ray Hinton since
26:291999. And Anthony Ray Hinton, thank you
26:32so much for being with us and
26:34congratulations on your freedom.
26:37Thank you.
26:37When we come back, believe it or not,
26:39we're going to speak about the case of
26:41another man on death row. Yes. For 30
26:44years. His name is Glenn Ford. He now
26:48lays dying of cancer, but as a free man,
26:52his prosecutor, the lead prosecutor in
26:54the 1984 case that led to Glenn Ford
26:58being sentenced to death, is now
27:00speaking out. We ask you to take a
27:04listen to what he says as we go to
27:06Shriport, Louisiana. Stay with us.

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