The World Over | Violence in Nigeria: Nina Shea with Raymond Arroyo | December 4, 2025 — Transcript

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1. 0:00She's been tracking the persecution of
2. 0:02Christians in Nigeria for years and one
3. 0:04of the leading advocates for persecuted
4. 0:06Christians around the world. The Trump
5. 0:08administration recently redesated
6. 0:11Nigeria a country of particular concern
7. 0:15visav religious freedom. But what needs
8. 0:18to be done now to protect those
9. 0:20vulnerable communities? Here to discuss
10. 0:22it all, director of the center for
11. 0:24religious freedom at the Hudson
12. 0:26Institute, Nina Shay. Nina, always great
13. 0:28to see you. You recently testified to
14. 0:30Congress uh about this situation in
15. 0:32Nigeria. President Trump approved the
16. 0:35CPC designation on October 31st. The
17. 0:39next step after designation of this
18. 0:41process requires the president to adopt
19. 0:44a policy response. Can you give us a
20. 0:47sense first of all of the scope of
21. 0:49what's happening on the ground in
22. 0:50Nigeria? And has the violence subsided
23. 0:53at all since Trump turned the the
24. 0:57world's eye to this problem?
25. 0:59>> Well, there's been um a concerted
26. 1:01systematic egregious ongoing attack
27. 1:04against the Christians, particularly in
28. 1:06the middle belt or central area of
29. 1:08Nigeria. Now, Raymond, the the forces
30. 1:12attacking them are fani jihadists, fani
31. 1:16militias. These are nomadic Muslim uh
32. 1:21militants who are coming in not very
33. 1:24sophisticated. They come in either
34. 1:26walking or on on motorcycles with AKs.
35. 1:30The Christians have no guns. There's a
36. 1:32very uh strict uh firearms act that that
37. 1:35prohibits the Christians and all
38. 1:37law-abiding citizens from having guns.
39. 1:39But the fanis are all armed with AKs and
40. 1:42they mow down the Christians in entire
41. 1:45villages. There's also targeted
42. 1:48kidnappings and we heard recently since
43. 1:51this CPC designation in fact about 250
44. 1:55the school children from St. Mary's
45. 1:58Catholic School being kidnapped and
46. 2:00taken into the bush. That means into
47. 2:02this jungle like area and for some
48. 2:05reason nobody knows where they are. This
49. 2:07is the entire student body of this
50. 2:09school and and nothing's been heard from
51. 2:11them since. None there said that some
52. 2:13are as young as five years old.
53. 2:15>> There's also a priest that was
54. 2:16>> a priest yesterday was kidnapped from
55. 2:19his residence. Uh father Emanuel Azima
56. 2:23and um the his bishop sent out a
57. 2:26statement his the arch dascese there in
58. 2:28Kaduna sent out [clears throat]
59. 2:30a statement. They're very wordy asking
60. 2:32for world prayers.
61. 2:34>> It it's it's just I mean the scope of
62. 2:36this is simply unbelievable. What's
63. 2:38amazing to me, as we discussed it a
64. 2:40little bit earlier with the Posi, um the
65. 2:42Vatican seems completely unwilling to
66. 2:45call this what it is, to say this is
67. 2:47Islam driving this, radical Islam. They
68. 2:50say, "Oh, this is really just a land
69. 2:53dispute between herders and farmers."
70. 2:55You've been covering this for decades,
71. 2:56Nina. Is that accurate in any way?
72. 2:58>> Uh no, that's not accurate. In fact, we
73. 3:01had a bishop testify alongside me in
74. 3:04before Christmas uh subcommittee on
75. 3:07representative Christmas subcommittee on
76. 3:09Africa and he said that this is a land
77. 3:12grab by the fani who are the biggest
78. 3:15persecutors now of Christians in
79. 3:16Nigeria. Not Bakaran, not the terrorist
80. 3:18groups, but the East militias. It's a
81. 3:20land grab to Islamicize the area.
82. 3:24>> Outrageous. You've recommended several
83. 3:26actions the US should take immediately
84. 3:29uh to end these fani militia attacks on
85. 3:32Christians. This week, Secretary of
86. 3:34State Marco Rubio posted this. The
87. 3:36United States is taking decisive action
88. 3:38in response to the atrocities and
89. 3:40violence against Christians in Nigeria
90. 3:42and around the world. The State
91. 3:44Department will restrict US visas for
92. 3:47those who knowingly direct, authorize,
93. 3:49fund, support, or carry out violations
94. 3:52of religious freedom. This visa policy
95. 3:54applies to Nigeria and other governments
96. 3:57or individuals that persecute people for
97. 4:00their religious beliefs. Nina, this was
98. 4:02actually one of your recommendations.
99. 4:04>> That was one of my recommendations. It's
100. 4:05a great start and um I think it's very
101. 4:08important. A lot of Nigerians want to
102. 4:10come to the United States. They want to
103. 4:12shop here. They want to invest here.
104. 4:14They want to um send their children to
105. 4:16school here.
106. 4:17>> What else should the administration be
107. 4:18doing?
108. 4:19>> They should be taking away the guns from
109. 4:21the fani. There's no reason for these
110. 4:23herders to have uh AKs and uh assault
111. 4:26rifles. Um and then they should be um
112. 4:30ramping up the police. Now, the
113. 4:33president of Nigeria just announced that
114. 4:35he's um deploying a 100,000 police from
115. 4:39uh protecting VIPs to going to the
116. 4:42security areas. So, that may be a win
117. 4:44for the administration if it's if you
118. 4:46know, as one bishop said, let's see what
119. 4:48comes of it. Yeah. But um you know if
120. 4:50that w if that happens it could be very
121. 4:52very important if they send it to the
122. 4:54the right proper areas.
123. 4:55>> The Nigerian minister of defense
124. 4:58recently resigned allegedly for health
125. 5:00reasons. What do you think is that
126. 5:03about?
127. 5:03>> Well the uh he's been replaced by a
128. 5:07Christian general
129. 5:08>> um Christopher Musa who's well
130. 5:11respected. Some call him the Ulyses
131. 5:13Srant of Nigeria. They think he's he's
132. 5:16going to
133. 5:16>> he's the answer.
134. 5:17>> He's the answer. So we'll we'll see how
135. 5:19that you know we'll see what comes with
136. 5:20that too. But that that happened uh
137. 5:22today. So uh so this is uh breaking news
138. 5:26and this is happening as um as a result
139. 5:29of President Trump's CPC designation. It
140. 5:33was very consequential so far. The power
141. 5:35of the bully white house bully pulpit
142. 5:37pulpit should not be underestimated.
143. 5:39Now, according to the AP, the departure
144. 5:40of US forces from neighboring Niger and
145. 5:44their forced eviction from that French
146. 5:46base near Chad's capital last year have
147. 5:49left fewer resources in the region. Now,
148. 5:52we know President Trump floated the idea
149. 5:54of sending the military in recently. Do
150. 5:56you think this merits that or really
151. 5:59this is Nigeria's challenge and they
152. 6:01need to step up?
153. 6:02>> Nigeria ultimately Nigeria needs to do
154. 6:04it. They need to close their borders
155. 6:06because it they are coming in from Chad
156. 6:07and these other Niger um and they need
157. 6:11to um take responsibility for uh
158. 6:14protecting their own people including
159. 6:15their Christians.
160. 6:17>> Before we run out of time, we've been
161. 6:19covering for years now Jimmy Liy's trial
162. 6:22in Hong Kong. Uh this this uh hearing
163. 6:25that went on for 156 days, an
164. 6:27extraordinarily long proceeding. The
165. 6:30judges have yet to reach a verdict.
166. 6:31We're all kind of in suspense waiting.
167. 6:34He spent 52 days on the witness stand.
168. 6:36Uh here we are in December, no verdict.
169. 6:39What is your assessment first of all of
170. 6:41is a is a verdict imminent, do you
171. 6:43think? And what would you tell us about
172. 6:46the nature of this prosecution?
173. 6:48>> Yeah. Well, it's a very political
174. 6:50prosecution. Um they want to uh uh
175. 6:54suppress all independent thought and any
176. 6:57activity outside the party that involves
177. 6:59dem pro-democracy, free speech. Um, and
178. 7:03they uh didn't expect, I think, this
179. 7:06backlash from the West. They didn't
180. 7:07think the West would care about Jimmy
181. 7:09Lie, one person. Um, you know, I met
182. 7:12with his daughter Claire uh just a
183. 7:14couple weeks ago, and the family doesn't
184. 7:17expect a verdict until after uh the new
185. 7:20year and probably not a sentence till
186. 7:23late in the spring. So, he's already
187. 7:25been in prison in isolation for most of
188. 7:27it um for 1,800 days. I mean and and his
189. 7:32health is deteriorating. He has heart
190. 7:34palpitations. He has a number of chronic
191. 7:37diseases at this point contracted or
192. 7:40developed during his imprisonment.
193. 7:42>> Wow. Well, we got to pray for Jimmy Lee.
194. 7:44I know his children uh Sebastian Claire
195. 7:48uh were here in Washington meeting with
196. 7:50the press. They rallied support for
197. 7:52their dad. They met with uh Texas
198. 7:53Senator Ted Cruz. Now, Cruz has been
199. 7:56very vocal about the case, having called
200. 7:58for Jimmy's release when the proceedings
201. 8:00began in 2023. How important was that
202. 8:03meeting and Cruz and the Trump
203. 8:05administration keeping pressure on China
204. 8:08and Hong Kong?
205. 8:09>> Yes, it's absolutely essential. Um, they
206. 8:11do not want their uh their party and
207. 8:14their brand uh tarnished by this coming
208. 8:17out. They hope to suppress all news of
209. 8:18it. And maybe that's why they're
210. 8:20dragging out the verdict, too. Maybe
211. 8:22they'll hope he'll he'll pass away in
212. 8:24prison and they will never have to say
213. 8:26they convicted him. Um I I hope not. I
214. 8:29hope he's uh released. I hope uh you
215. 8:32know he he he's allowed to leave Hong
216. 8:34Kong uh and he's a British citizen.
217. 8:37>> Yeah. He should be returned to Britain
218. 8:39at the very least
219. 8:39>> if they don't want him. Yeah. So uh and
220. 8:42there's also um a pastor Protestant
221. 8:44pastor Jyn um who Ezra Jyn who is the
222. 8:48father-in-law of my colleague at Hudson
223. 8:50Institute. um who was imprisoned just in
224. 8:53the last month um for preaching on the
225. 8:56internet and um you know perfectly
226. 8:59harmless. He's uh preaching the gospel.
227. 9:02So um he he has not uh had a trial
228. 9:06either yet. So we'll see what happens.
229. 9:08But I think this is a very a bad sign
230. 9:10that they want to eliminate anyone who
231. 9:12raises their head or or does something
232. 9:14outside. You know, this should remind us
233. 9:16of that very first Christmas when Herod
234. 9:18sent the the the soldiers out
235. 9:21>> in the fear that this child would
236. 9:23somehow rise up. And we see the ongoing
237. 9:27shadows of that all through time. But
238. 9:29now with Jimmy, with Pastor Jinn and so
239. 9:32many others, the the brothers and
240. 9:34sisters in Nigeria, even here in the
241. 9:36United States and Canada, um there
242. 9:39clearly is an act of persecution. Thank
243. 9:41you for continuing to watch it, Nina.
244. 9:42We'll have you back. And you can find
245. 9:44Nina Sha's reporting on the persecution
246. 9:46of Christians worldwide at hudson.org.
247. 9:50Thank you. Thank you.