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The West Block: Roméo Dallaire speaks on Rwanda genocide anniversary — Transcript

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0:00[Music]
0:05Declassified summaries of top secret
0:07intelligence documents attempts to
0:09funnel a quarter million dollars and
0:11what was said about the two Michaels
0:14stunning testimony from the foreign
0:15interference inquiry is on the show this
0:18week I'm Mercedes Stevenson and the West
0:20block Starts
0:22Now this information now is in the
0:24public domain the head of Canada's spy
0:26agency takes the stand revealing
0:29critical information about cis's
0:31concerns on what foreign operatives were
0:33up to in the last two Canadian
0:36elections and on this somber anniversary
0:39of the Rwandan Genocide General Romeo
0:42deair tells us key actors in that
0:44Slaughter are currently hiding out in
0:48[Music]
0:58Canada
1:00the public inquiry into foreign
1:02interference is back and it has been a
1:04big week for the first time we're
1:06learning the details of what
1:08intelligence exactly the government had
1:10on the issue the director of cus and the
1:13commissioner of the RCMP both testified
1:16about significant and numerous attempts
1:18by Foreign governments to interfere in
1:20our democracy from propaganda to China's
1:23attempt to funnel about A4 million
1:25dollar in cash to influence Canadian
1:28politics and we learned learned new
1:30details about independent MP Han dong
1:33and the comments he allegedly made about
1:35the two Michaels a ceases document
1:37alleged details of a phone call between
1:39dong and China's Consul General in
1:41Toronto dong testified that he didn't
1:44recall making the statements about the
1:45two Michel alleged in the ce's report
1:48and said that he had always advocated
1:50for their early release one thing was
1:52clear in all of it China is highly
1:55capable and motivated when it comes to
1:57election interference joining me now at
1:59discuss this our former National
2:01Security adviser and ceis director dick
2:03Fadden and the globan males senior
2:05parliamentary reporter Steven Chase
2:07who's broken a number of the stories on
2:08foreign interference a really remarkable
2:11week in terms of a chance to see
2:13documents Canadians would typically
2:15never lay eyes on to hear from senior
2:17National Security officials about what
2:19was happening behind the scenes Steve I
2:21know you've been tracking every moment
2:23of this as it goes by what jumped out to
2:26you this week well what first of all
2:28what jumped out to me is that David
2:29Johnson really did a poor job we learned
2:32so much more in one week of this inquiry
2:34than we've learned from his entire
2:36report we had um the the revelations
2:40that there was uh serious concerns about
2:43uh Chinese disinformation campaigns
2:46being uh leveled against the
2:48conservatives that were not passed on we
2:50we we finally learned more about the
2:52conversation that hand dong had with the
2:54Chinese Consulate and the actual details
2:56of it we had uh Revelations about
2:59250,000
3:00being uh you know delivered by the from
3:03the Chinese government to threat actors
3:04in the region so and the week's not even
3:07over the inquiry is not even over we've
3:09got another week going and of course
3:11we're seeing uh public summaries of of
3:13what would have been highly classified
3:14documents we're not seeing the original
3:16documents or any of the things that were
3:17not permitted to see for national
3:19security reasons when you watch this
3:21through the National Security lens dick
3:23what does it all say to you about how
3:25significant this all was um and things
3:27that we've learned as as Steve points
3:29out through this inquiry that we
3:31otherwise never would have known and in
3:33some cases were denied by the government
3:35or by the Johnston
3:36report I think the main conclusion that
3:38I come to which I find very distressing
3:41is given everything that's been made
3:42public this week or quasi public this
3:44week in the context of the government's
3:47clear reluctance over time to admit that
3:49there was a problem I mean the
3:50government had to be driven to set up
3:53this inquiry I still don't think they've
3:55really registered how serious it is
3:57substantively it's certainly important
3:59publicly and in communication terms but
4:00the thing that came across to me mostly
4:02was all of this information or most of
4:05this information should have been
4:06available quite broadly not all publicly
4:08but broadly within the system certainly
4:11the political side of things should have
4:12known about it as should the senior
4:14public service and despite all of this
4:16as I said a moment ago the government
4:18was very reluctant to deal with the
4:20issue and they still are you know Mr
4:22leblan has been promising a uh foreign
4:24agents registry now I think for about 18
4:26months uh this is not a complicated
4:28piece of legislation
4:30is there any way they wouldn't have
4:33known some of this stuff because when
4:34you look back on some of the things that
4:36the government said a few months ago and
4:38now you look at what's before the
4:39commission did they never see this did
4:41they see this and think it would never
4:42come out so they could continue along
4:44their path uh there's some pretty
4:46glaring deficiencies in the public
4:48commentary compared to what we now know
4:50CES is saying yes we we had analysis
4:53that suggested this and that it would
4:54have been passed on to appropriate
4:56authorities I mean it's the job for
4:58example of PCO to make sure that when
5:00things like this come up the Prime
5:02Minister and pmo and ministers are
5:04available so I don't know why they've
5:07been reluctant to accept this in their
5:10public commentary as you say or to
5:12accept that they should have done
5:13something about it but uh I've certainly
5:16come to the conclusion having worked in
5:17Ottawa for a goodly number of years that
5:19nothing stays secret forever and I would
5:21have thought that that would have
5:23registered as well but it seemingly
5:24hasn't because you're right the contrast
5:26between what they've said and what now
5:27appears to be the case not quite
5:30congruent Steve what's the political
5:32Fallout of this for the government well
5:34I think it it shows that they weren't
5:36really uh on the job they were either
5:39there was a failure in communication or
5:42there was a deliberate decision not to
5:44share information about the extent of of
5:47the Chinese foreign interference and
5:49let's be clear 90% of what we're talking
5:52about here is is Chinese State Foreign
5:53interference although we've added other
5:55countries to the roster uh we don't have
5:57a lot of evidence uh of other countries
6:00uh being as as pervasive and aggressive
6:03and it was the the questions about China
6:04that initially sparked this inquiry of
6:06course we've since started talking about
6:07India Russia's been a persistent problem
6:09Iran uh it's a very broad scope and I do
6:12want to get to that in a moment but I
6:13wanted to ask you your opinion dick on
6:15on this information we got about the cus
6:17interception of the phone call between
6:19Hong and the Chinese Consul general and
6:22this has been you know a lot of
6:25controversy a lot of debate about this
6:26phone call we finally got the CIS
6:28summary of what they allege was said and
6:31it included things like um concerns that
6:34uh you know the Canadian public wanted
6:36more transparency on on the two Michaels
6:38being held which of course is true but
6:40you have handong in it suggesting that
6:42if the Chinese government were to
6:43provide more transparency about the
6:44detention it might plate public opinion
6:46it might give the liberal government
6:47some talking points that if they were to
6:49release the two Michaels right now um it
6:52in fact might embolden opponents of of
6:54the regime here in Canada and in the
6:55opposition who are hardliners on China
6:58um that was quite interesting to take a
7:01look at when you look at that as a
7:03national security official do you think
7:05that's an appropriate conversation if it
7:07unfolded that way this is what CA says
7:09if it unfolded the way that CA said it
7:10did well I have no reason to believe
7:12that what CA said did in fact not happen
7:14and no I don't think it's appropriate um
7:17you know MPS are entitled to have
7:19relationships with with embassies I mean
7:22socially and professionally to some
7:23degree but I think we have to look at
7:25the context Canada was going through a
7:28really rough patch
7:30with China we had two of our citizens
7:32being held so anybody who was mucking
7:35around complicating our relationships
7:37with China was doing so I think it
7:39variance with the best interest of both
7:40the country and the individuals
7:42concerned I understand why Mr Hong would
7:45be concerned and he might want to help
7:47it was not appropriate for a backbencher
7:49in my view at that time to try and play
7:53even if you attribute the most positive
7:54of of motives to him anything that
7:57complicated what we were trying to do
7:59with the Chinese was not helpful and
8:01Hong of course was up testifying this
8:04week that the first time that we've
8:05heard from him in front of the
8:06commission what did you think of what Mr
8:08dong had to say it was especially um I
8:12think difficult for him when he was
8:14asked about these specific summaries of
8:16his conversation with with with the with
8:18the consul and he couldn't recall
8:22advising them uh he couldn't recall
8:24saying that or didn't remember whether
8:26he had in fact advised them to uh right
8:30now might not be a good time to release
8:31the Michaels or that it might embolden
8:33the the hardliners and he didn't recall
8:36other other very specific and and
8:39tantalizing bits of the conversation
8:41that didn't I don't think that came
8:42across well and there was of course the
8:44question of this
8:46$250,000 that cus believed this
8:49essentially I believe the commission
8:50lawyer called it a slush fund that they
8:52were hoping to funnel through sort of a
8:53network of intermediaries to try to
8:55affect the election and it's not clear
8:57whether that money ever actually changed
8:59hands but that there was an intention to
9:01do so there I wonder dick when I look at
9:03all of this and and CE has had all of
9:05this information and they say that they
9:06passed it on to site which is the the
9:09elections body that's supposed to be
9:10monitoring and warning if there's an
9:11issue why didn't we hear anything about
9:14this publicly at the time given what we
9:16now know I think that's a $57,000
9:20question I think there are basically
9:21three reasons one the way the uh site
9:24was constituted it put Senior public
9:27servants in this role uh one of the
9:29things you're taught when you're a
9:30senior public servant is you stay as far
9:32away from elections as you possibly can
9:34it's part of the DNA and I think they
9:36would have been reluctant intuitively to
9:38make these things public um secondly I
9:42think
9:44um the views of the prime minister at
9:46the time were that this was not a really
9:48significant issue and I don't for a
9:51minute think that the Prime Minister
9:52told anybody don't release things but
9:54the views the moods of ministers and
9:56prime ministers permeate the system and
9:58I think that would have added a little
10:00bit to the reluctance and the third
10:02reason and I've felt this since the very
10:04beginning I think I may have said this
10:05on one of your shows I thought the
10:07constitution of sit was wrong uh I think
10:11that we would have been far better to
10:13have a retired politician you know uh
10:15former prime minister Clark he's not
10:17particularly partisan but he's well
10:19respected he understands elections in a
10:21way that none of these senior officials
10:23could have or I could have so I think
10:25for those three reasons in the end the I
10:28think the the the the problem would have
10:30had to be so serious that they would
10:32have felt compelled to release uh the
10:35information the other issue too is I
10:37think their mandate wasn't as clear as
10:38it could have been they interpreted it
10:40as requiring them to release information
10:42if there was a systemic issue not if
10:44there was an issue as Mr UL argues at
10:46particular constituency levels there was
10:48also an incident Friday that I thought
10:50was was really telling uh the prevy
10:53Council Office uh staffer from from that
10:56office revealed that they actually had
10:58had sort of intervened in the 2019
11:01election campaign and they asked
11:03Facebook to take down a a false
11:06allegations an article that made really
11:08false allegations about Mr Trudeau um
11:12publication called the Buffalo Chronicle
11:14at the same time they were asked by
11:16commission staff well how come you
11:17didn't take any action with respect to
11:19WeChat uh over the allegations that they
11:22made about aot tul and uh and Kenny Chu
11:26one the defeated conservative now
11:27defeated Conservative candidate and they
11:29said well we felt one was more of a
11:31personal attack and the other it it was
11:33not only it was in Mandarin so it only
11:35would have really affected the chines
11:37speaking Canadians it wouldn't have been
11:39didn't have the potential to go viral
11:41like the other article some interesting
11:43logic and I'm sure we'll hear more about
11:44it in the Commission in the coming week
11:45as we start to hear from politicians
11:47including the prime minister so much
11:49more for us to talk about including
11:50whether the commission has enough time
11:52to do all its work I'm sure we'll be
11:53back chatting about this again thank you
11:55both so much for joining us today good
11:57to be with you up next on a somber
12:00anniversary is there hope for
12:02[Music]
12:17peace it was 30 years ago today that the
12:20Rwandan Genocide began extremists in the
12:23dominant hu tribe started torturing and
12:26slaughtering the minority
12:28tootsies it happened so brutally and at
12:31such an alarming rate it was a clear
12:33attempt at wiping out the entire ethnic
12:35group the total number of people killed
12:37was first believed to be
12:40800,000 but bodies are still being
12:42discovered in fact another 100,000
12:44victims have been Unearthed in The Last
12:475 Years alone seven un peacekeepers were
12:50also slaughtered on this day three
12:52decades ago Canadian leftenant General
12:55Romeo deair headed the UN Mission his
12:57attempts at trying to Shel of vulnerable
13:00locals without external help were
13:02Valiant but he could not stop the
13:04genocide you are not to take s get down
13:08his first book about it sparked a
13:09Hollywood movie do they know how many
13:11people are going to die here it's
13:16over his latest book The Peace A
13:19Warrior's Journey explores the
13:21underlying causes of War and the need
13:23for more than Band-Aid solutions for a
13:25better and more peaceful Future
13:27something the world could certainly use
13:29right now retired leftenant General
13:31Romeo deair joins me now General deair
13:34thank you so much for joining us it's
13:35always such a pleasure to have you on
13:37the show thank you as we reflect on the
13:4130th anniversary of the beginning of
13:43such a a terrible time in Rwanda with
13:46the genocide one that stands out for so
13:48many Canadians is we watched an abject
13:51horror as people lost their lives hoping
13:54that help was coming that never
13:56materialized you have been the face in
13:59so many ways of that pain and suffering
14:01here in Canada as you reflect back on
14:03your time in Rwanda and I know you were
14:05able to return recently as well what is
14:08your feeling on this
14:10anniversary well there's enormous hope
14:13because the generation that's the young
14:17people are the generation post genocide
14:20now and that nation is making headways
14:24beyond belief in becoming a modern
14:27effective sophisticated country
14:29and so there's an enormous amount of
14:31optimism there
14:33however uh the genocide remains a
14:37reference point uh and the uh
14:42tribulations around the non-resolution
14:44of the genocide that is to say the world
14:47not getting involved the international
14:49tribunal not being complete uh and that
14:52there there's still some of the uh
14:55intellectuals that created the genocide
14:57are free in France still today um leaves
15:01a a level of concern about something
15:05trying to be reconstituted again in the
15:08future well the the Rwandan government
15:10is pretty close to authoritarian at this
15:13time in fact there's been evidence them
15:15trying to reach out and silence critics
15:16here in Canada there's concern that some
15:19of those underlying issues that led to
15:21the genocide as you mentioned have not
15:23been resolved are you worried that it
15:26could happen again in
15:27Rwanda there is a constant concern that
15:31because we've not truly moved towards
15:35human security and Lasting peace we are
15:40living in periods of trues even after
15:42World War I I mean everybody screened
15:45that we are peace the next day we
15:46started up with the with the Russians
15:48and the Warsaw pack so there is a
15:52constant um sort of acceptance that if
15:55we have a truth and we can work things
15:57out seem ly at certain levels uh that we
16:01will actually have peace but we haven't
16:04reached that we we've never gotten to
16:06that depth and so there's always a
16:09nagging concern that there are left uh
16:13frictions that can in fact uh regenerate
16:17the problem and all the more so uh when
16:20we know that there's activism to want to
16:23do that many of the bad guys of the Hutu
16:28regime regime ended up in Canada and
16:31I've testified in one one just one um uh
16:37trial there are other ones and so there
16:39are movements outside of Rwanda that
16:43want to undermine the political process
16:45inside Randa and so yeah I'm not
16:48surprised that there's concern about
16:50what's going on outside any diaspora
16:52that we have has connections with their
16:55old old countries and so there's nothing
16:57surprising that two dip hu and Tosi are
17:00here and there are elements that are un
17:03uncertain and unsatisfied so if they're
17:07here I assume the Canadian government
17:08knows they're here are they not holding
17:10them accountable or attempting to deport
17:13them when when I was testified against
17:17one of the Geno the trial was in
17:20Montreal lasted nearly two years uh cost
17:24a couple million bucks uh we had a list
17:27still then of people that should be
17:29brought in front of the the Canadian
17:32court because we have that international
17:34law that if we have people who have
17:36committed these crimes against humanity
17:37we can try them here in Canada and and
17:41the justice department kept telling me
17:42that we don't have the money to be able
17:43to do the trials and so these people are
17:46still living around but they are not
17:49sitting uh sort of Silent as they're not
17:53in Belgium as they not in France and so
17:56uh unless you bring
17:59Justice throughout the process you're
18:02going to continue to have people who are
18:04getting away with it and will nurture
18:06this in the Next Generation and that's
18:09the real concern because the Eastern
18:11Congo is a hotbed of of instability and
18:17they would love to get rid of all the
18:18tosis that are in the Congo let alone uh
18:22their hatred for for Rwanda and the
18:25power that Rwanda has that is horrifying
18:28to me that our justice department didn't
18:30want to hold or or doesn't want to hold
18:32war criminals accountable over a a money
18:35issue uh that just seems to be such a a
18:38clear moral question there with a clear
18:40answer I I know that you've just written
18:42a book called peace and and part of what
18:44you're looking at is this this moral
18:46question of whether we are doing what we
18:48can to stop genocides like Rwanda from
18:51happening again and I look around the
18:52world I see October 7th in Israel I see
18:55what's happening in Gaza I see Sudan
18:57Afghanistan Ukraine so many areas and
19:00and it seems like we are in a more
19:01complicated and dangerous time than we
19:04have been in decades what can be done
19:07what needs to be done to try to bring
19:11more peace to the
19:13world I think that uh first of all don't
19:17just think of the short term we're going
19:19to have uh these catastrophic fail years
19:23to still into the future remember that
19:26the nation states have only been
19:27existing for over three centuries and
19:29we've been
19:31battling you know beating each other up
19:33and slaughtering each other ever since
19:35and Humanity has been doing it from the
19:37start in fact for for power for money
19:40and whatever so there's going to be a
19:42need of a near revolutionary transition
19:45and that's why I based my book on a lot
19:47of the Italian Renaissance when they
19:49were able to create a revolution of
19:51thinking in humanity and now that we can
19:54talk to all of humanity all of it I
19:57believe that the Young
19:59Generations the the the Millennials the
20:02the Zeds the A's are going to master and
20:04mature the communications of the world
20:07they're now already Global they're what
20:11I call Generations Without Borders they
20:14see things in a grander scale of things
20:17both both the climate both the the
20:20planet and humanity and bring it they
20:22feel that we can in fact uh Thrive into
20:26the future and not simply continue on
20:28this rolled with nuclear weapons and so
20:30on of surviving the other angle that's
20:32coming into effect that is crucial is we
20:35got to get a hold of all these
20:37male-dominated institutions and
20:40organizations and governments that have
20:42been built by men under their ego under
20:46their often misogynous under their uh uh
20:50self-interest based uh uh concepts of
20:54what is right and what should be and we
20:57got to get the women to influence
21:00fundamentally the philosophies of
21:02leadership of the world and that with
21:05the Millennials with the the uh
21:08generations of borders those two gangs
21:11together are going to change the face of
21:14humanity and move us Beyond just
21:17thriving for PE for trues but actually
21:20looking for lasting peace an
21:23inspirational message thank you so much
21:25for joining us today General deair I
21:27know it's always a difficult an iversary
21:29and we appreciate your Insight and your
21:31wisdom well you're kind up next
21:34Revelations from the foreign
21:36interference inquiry last week that
21:38raised questions about the findings in
21:40the Johnston
21:42[Music]
21:44[Applause]
21:46[Music]
21:52[Music]
21:56report now for one last thing when it
21:59comes to foreign interference the
22:01question is not just what other
22:03countries were up to in Canada but what
22:06Canadian authorities and leaders knew
22:08who they told about it and whether they
22:10took the appropriate action to try to
22:12stop it this week prime minister Justin
22:14Trudeau will make a much anticipated
22:17appearance at the foreign interference
22:18inquiry Global News asked Mr Trudeau
22:21about CIS intelligence summaries that
22:24were presented last week and whether
22:26former liberal MP Han dong would be
22:28allowed to return to caucus we asked
22:30those questions in three different
22:32cities to the Prime Minister last week
22:35and while he gave us a response he did
22:37not give us an answer each time we asked
22:40obviously these are ongoing
22:41conversations that need to be taken very
22:43seriously and we are this commission is
22:46an important moment for Canadians and
22:48for uh for our institutions I think
22:51everyone is looking forward to uh the
22:53work of the uh independent inquiry into
22:56uh foreign interference and uh looks
22:58forward to seeing the commissioner
23:00reports uh in the coming months I look
23:02forward to uh taking all sorts of
23:04questions at the commission next week we
23:06hope to get some clear answers from the
23:08prime minister at the inquiry about what
23:10he knew and when he knew it that
23:12transparency is key to trust and to
23:15stopping future foreign interference
23:17that's our show for today thanks for
23:19watching we'll see you right back here
23:21next
23:22[Music]
23:27week
23:28[Applause]

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