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The Vice President and I Discuss Political Philosophy — Transcript

by Bishop Robert Barron · 12,170 words · 1,811 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:07Well, welcome to very special edition of
0:09Bishop Baron Presents. I'm here in the
0:11pool house of the vice president's uh
0:13residence and I'm here with the vice
0:15president of the United States, JD
0:16Vance. Mr. Vice President, thank you for
0:19taking the time. Of
0:19>> course, good to see you.
0:20>> I'm just eager to talk to you about a
0:21lot of things, but especially your new
0:23book, Communion, which is terrific and a
0:25great followup to Hillbilly Elegy.
0:27There's so many themes, you know,
0:29political, religious, personal,
0:30otherwise makes a very rich uh read,
0:33>> but you know, I want to start with the
0:34fact that uh your confirmation name when
0:36you were fully received into the
0:38Catholic Church is Augustine.
0:39>> Sure.
0:40>> And of course, you can't help but notice
0:41an Augustinian arc to this book.
0:44Augustine's a guy from the backwoods.
0:47You know, when he came to Milan and Rome
0:48and he spoke Latin, he's a great master
0:50of Latin, but they made fun of his
0:52>> accent, his African accent from the
0:54backwoods. his ambition drives him to
0:57the top of what he wanted. He gets there
0:59and then realizes the emptiness of it.
1:02Um, obviously you found resonance with
1:04[laughter] that Augustinian story. Tell
1:06me just a bit about that, the
1:07Augustinian arc of the book.
1:10>> Yeah. Well, [sighs] it's it's funny you
1:11you you drawn that parallel and I think
1:13others have drawn that parallel. It's
1:14not something I was even aware of
1:17entirely, just the there are certainly
1:19parallels between our lives, but what
1:21what always attracted me to to St.
1:23Augustine was more the intellectual
1:26piece of it than the personal piece of
1:27it. I definitely read, you know,
1:29confessions at some point. Actually, the
1:30the Dominican frier who baptized me,
1:33gifted me a copy and I read it and I
1:35was, you know, very moved by it. But I
1:37was much more interested in the city of
1:39God and some of the things that he had
1:40written about, you know, Roman politics
1:42and Roman philosophy and sort of the the
1:45way in which Christianity was in some
1:47ways an antidote to the things that he
1:49had seen in his own in his own life. and
1:52and frankly some of the problems that he
1:54saw in the Roman Empire around him.
1:56>> And you know in particular there there
1:57are two two things that I point out that
1:59you know I was definitely in my kind of
2:01atheist phase because I was raised
2:03evangelical as I talk about in the book
2:05fell away from my faith called myself an
2:07atheist for some time. Uh I was in
2:09college and we read the city of god in a
2:11political philosophy class and I was
2:13just really moved and affected by I was
2:15like this is like clearly a very
2:17profound person.
2:18>> Yeah.
2:19>> And you know and when you're in that
2:21kind of atheist phase or at least when I
2:22was there was sort of this idea that I
2:25had categorized religious people as
2:28simple as subrational or anti-rational
2:32whereas it was the atheists especially
2:34the new atheists who were super smart
2:36with the rights. That's right. and and
2:37and there were many ways in which that
2:40story is obviously wrong, but St. St.
2:43Augustine is one of the people who sort
2:45of pierced that in a very early phase
2:46for me. You know, to me, it's
2:47interesting because I'm focusing there
2:48on the on the confessions narrative, but
2:51the city of God,
2:52>> the principal theme of which I would say
2:54is right worship. His argument there is
2:56Rome went bad because of bad worship.
2:59Worship gods who themselves were jealous
3:01and and resentful and violent. And the
3:03Christian God, the God of love and
3:05forgiveness and so on, is the right one
3:07to worship. Correct.
3:08>> And that all of our political
3:09arrangement should follow from right
3:11praise.
3:12>> Yes.
3:12>> That to me, it's an ancient idea, but a
3:14very relevant idea and lively in the
3:17conversation today. Don't you think?
3:18>> That's right. Well, and I think that the
3:20subtext of it is that every society,
3:23whether it considers itself secular or
3:25not, every society has an underlying
3:27theology.
3:28>> Worships something. It worships
3:29something. And I think the the Roman
3:32Empire and I guess the 4th century that
3:34Augustine was surrounded by had become
3:36very corrupted. And you know, there's
3:38there's this there's this passage, I'm
3:40going to butcher it if I try to quote
3:41it, but I I talk about in the book
3:43where, you know, Augustine sort of
3:45criticizes the Roman elites where, you
3:48know, they they hang out and they care
3:51about money and then they get really
3:52drunk and then they it's just like it's
3:55a very vivid criticism of the decadence
3:59of the Roman elite. And it's like any
4:01society led by people like this is
4:04eventually going to go by the wayside.
4:06And that that is again it sounded very
4:09resonant to me because I do think that
4:10there is something very corrupt about
4:12American elites in in 2026 certainly in
4:1520 you know 13 2014 when I'm sort of
4:18struggling with this stuff and thinking
4:19about this stuff. So that that is all
4:23true but fundamentally every society
4:25worships something and I think that if
4:27you are worshiping the right things a
4:30lot of virtue and a lot of goodness will
4:32flow from it. If you're worshiping the
4:34wrong things, eventually you're going to
4:35go off track.
4:36>> You know, Paul Tillik, the Protestant
4:38theologian, who was a great devil tape
4:40Augustine, said that. He [clears throat]
4:41said, "All you need to know about a
4:43person or a society, you can derive from
4:46the question, what do you worship?"
4:47>> Interesting.
4:48>> What's of highest value to you? Yeah.
4:49>> I found that in spiritual direction with
4:51people, what are you worshiping? What
4:53are you after? And then everything else
4:55will fall in place around that central
4:57question. Yeah.
4:57>> Um,
4:58>> at one stage of your life, you were
5:00worshiping uh success. So you talk about
5:03it very frankly that you were after,
5:05>> you know, um, rising in the world and
5:07getting to the top of the, you know,
5:09Yale law school and then the legal world
5:11and all that stuff.
5:13>> Um, and and what you saw, it seems to
5:15me, is that was bad worship.
5:18>> Mhm. That's right. No, that's exactly
5:19right. So, I I don't know that this
5:21evangelical um you know, theologian you
5:23just mentioned, um Paul Pelic, it sounds
5:27fascinating to me and sounds like
5:28something I I should take a look at,
5:30>> but but no, I mean, so so I get to this
5:32this phase in my life and I'm, you know,
5:35I've gotten into law school. I worship
5:38success
5:39>> and it's it's not I I try to draw this
5:41distinction in some of the interviews,
5:43certainly in the book, where it it's not
5:45that ambition is always bad, right?
5:48That's not that's not the argument. But
5:50it's like there are two kinds of
5:53ambition here. Um there's the ambition
5:55to do something amazing or to do
5:58something transformative or to help a
6:00lot of people or to build a beautiful
6:02building. Like you don't build I mean
6:04speak of Milan if you've ever seen the
6:05Milan Cathedral, one of those beautiful
6:07buildings in the world. Ambitious people
6:09built this thing.
6:10>> But there's a separate kind of ambition
6:13that I think is much more endemic in our
6:15our society in 2026. again especially
6:18among our leaders which is like the
6:21desire to just get ahead for its own
6:23sake. You sort of have this sense of
6:26social rank and you assign value based
6:28on where did people go to school or how
6:30much money do they make or what are
6:32their credentials and that is I think
6:35very very common among the set that I
6:38was running in. So, you know, I'm in my
6:39mid20s. I'm at Yale Law School. And I
6:41just realized almost instinctively the
6:44social currency is credential. People
6:47don't care about what you've achieved.
6:49They don't care about what you're going
6:50to achieve. They don't care about your
6:52family. This is a very weird thing to me
6:54because I grew up in a community where
6:55like the thing that people were most
6:57interested in you is how are your kids
6:59doing? How's your wife doing? How's your
7:00husband doing? And yet at Yale it was
7:03who is going to get ahead in this game
7:06of life. And I found that very
7:08unsatisfying.
7:08>> What I, you know, gathered from your
7:10book very strongly and it's a standard
7:12bit of the spiritual tradition is that
7:14makes you a complete slave of the
7:16opinion of others.
7:17>> What you were going for was not really
7:18something in itself. You were going for
7:20admiration.
7:21>> Correct.
7:21>> A Christ would call that the lust for
7:23honor. Yes.
7:23>> Right. The the big four he says we seek
7:25in place of God are wealth, pleasure,
7:27power, and honor. Well, honor is that.
7:29>> Yes.
7:29>> But see, honor makes you a complete
7:31slave
7:32>> because
7:32>> Exactly. I could be doing the greatest
7:34things, but the people, they don't
7:36recognize it. Or, hey, I got this big
7:38degree and I got this big job and it's
7:39big because people admire it. Yeah.
7:42>> But that is an empty spiritual space to
7:44be and makes you a slave of other
7:46people.
7:46>> That's exactly. And you care way too
7:48much about what they think. You allow
7:50what other people think to influence
7:52again, not just what you do, but even
7:53the thoughts in your head. And this was
7:55another thing that I picked up when I
7:56was at Yale Law School is like again I I
7:58assumed that there was this
8:00hyperrational element to American
8:02elites. Yeah,
8:03>> these these are high IQ. These are high
8:05achieving. These are people who are
8:07people of the mind. They're not
8:08superstitious religious people like the
8:10ones that I discarded. And yet their way
8:13of thinking about the world is much more
8:15narrow and constrained for this very
8:17reason because their opinions are so
8:19based on just what other people believe
8:22that it becomes derivative of the social
8:24set in which they run in. And this, you
8:26know, leads me to another like Catholic
8:28philosopher where, you know, Renee
8:31Gerard talks about this idea that human
8:34beings are look, we're naturally social.
8:36>> Yeah.
8:36>> And and this can lead to certain virtues
8:38and certain vices. But one of the vices
8:40that it leads to is that we very often
8:43identify what we want based on what
8:46other people want.
8:47>> Metic desire.
8:48>> Metic desire. And that's exactly what
8:50was happening. It it describes so
8:52perfectly the world that I saw around
8:54me.
8:55>> Yeah. And then again you start saying
8:57well okay so I had this idea of what's
9:01right and what's wrong that's become
9:04unsatisfying to me and there are all of
9:06these people who happen to be like
9:08famous Catholics and famous Christians
9:10who seem to be identifying that there's
9:13like a fundamental weakness in this way
9:15of seeing the world and again that was
9:18that was very powerful to me and that
9:19kind of got me back on the right path.
9:21>> Tell me more about Gerard. You know, I
9:23had the chance to meet him toward the
9:24end of his career. He came to Mundeline
9:26Seminary to give a series of lectures.
9:27>> Okay.
9:28>> Marvelous person, great personality and
9:30remarkable looking person too.
9:32>> Um, you discover him through Peter Teal
9:34and you call Teal one of the smartest
9:36people you ever met. Yes, I've met him a
9:38couple times and he is indeed a a very
9:40bright man.
9:41>> Uh, I found with Girar once you get it,
9:44you can't unget it. Once you see what he
9:47saw, it's like, oh my, that's
9:49everywhere.
9:49>> Exactly. He's one of these I think he'll
9:51be seen as kind of a father of the
9:53church in 500 years because the the
9:55spiritual perception is so deep. Um and
9:58the mimemetic thing is I mean all the
10:00advertising based upon it. Why do I want
10:02that product? Well, because someone else
10:03wants it, you know, right?
10:05>> But then mimedic desire leads to mimedic
10:08rivalry.
10:08>> Correct.
10:09>> Now we're in conflict with each other
10:10which also is everywhere in our society.
10:13Correct.
10:13>> Mimetic uh conflict leads to the
10:16scapegoating mechanism.
10:17>> Sure. You say it there and I boy have I
10:19sensed it. You know, you want to go to a
10:21Gerardian playground. Go to the social
10:24media.
10:24>> That's right.
10:25>> Of mimemetic desire, mimedic rivalry,
10:27and scapegoating. Yes.
10:28>> The mobs that form on online.
10:30>> Correct.
10:31>> I think he's the great prophet of our
10:32time.
10:34>> No, I think that's very interesting. He
10:35is certainly the prophet of social media
10:37because the thing about mimemetic desire
10:40again, this this idea that we identify
10:42what we want based on what other people
10:43want. And and again, once you see it,
10:46like you said, it's very hard to unsee
10:47it. I mean, look, I I have a
10:48nine-year-old, I have a six-year-old, I
10:50have a four-year-old.
10:51>> To see it with children is unbelievable.
10:54Like my 9-year-old will pick up a toy
10:56that none of the kids has played with in
10:586 months. And instantly, all of them
11:00want that toy. You again, it is such a
11:03powerful explanation of of human
11:05psychology.
11:07But here's the thing. In a normal
11:10society, preocial media, right? This
11:14takes time, right? Like like mimemetic
11:18desire happens through normal social
11:21interactions. You see what somebody else
11:23is is focused on. You see what somebody
11:25else cares about.
11:27>> But social media sort of taken this and
11:29supercharged it. It can spread like
11:31wildfire. And so you see what other
11:34people are talking about, what other
11:35people are thinking, what other people
11:37are desiring much more quickly because
11:41the virality of social media puts it in
11:43front of you at such a quick speed. And
11:46so again, because it sets that desire a
11:49flame and and makes it spread so
11:52rapidly, it also makes the conflict side
11:54of it spread so rapidly. And how many
11:56times I mean you not even on on X or you
11:59know Twitter or whatever we're calling
12:00it these days but if if you go to like
12:04Facebook back in its early days how many
12:07times would I see people that I knew and
12:09loved get into arguments on the internet
12:12where I I would think to myself the this
12:15is not who you are the these are two
12:17really lovely human beings that are
12:19calling each other these terrible names
12:22on social media. Like how did we even
12:24get here? you know, Girar and and your
12:27friend Peter Teal as well. And we'll
12:29talk, frankly, about the demonic
12:30element. Yes.
12:31>> The devil is two great names in the
12:32Bible, right? He's Hosatanas. He's the
12:35accuser. And he's the diabolos, which
12:37means the scatterer.
12:38>> Yes.
12:39>> There they are.
12:40>> Go to social media. Accusation and then
12:43division.
12:43>> Yes.
12:44>> No, but it's a it's a playground for
12:45that. And I I really think the church
12:47has got to be involved, not just, you
12:50know, to inform people, but to name
12:52these dynamics that are going on. But
12:54you sensed them in your own you know
12:56rise your own career. I want to stay for
12:58a second too. The ambition thing is
12:59interesting to me because Aquinus talks
13:01about magna nimitas which means
13:02magnaanima big soul. Yes.
13:04>> He likes magnanimous people. To have a
13:07big soul means I want to accomplish
13:09something great for the kingdom of God.
13:11Yeah.
13:11>> But see the intake would be hey and you
13:14and I can both desire the same great
13:17goal. Let's say so you're a politician.
13:20It's the common good.
13:21>> Yes.
13:21>> And like hey let's all get involved. We
13:23all want the common good. We're not
13:25looking at each other. We're looking
13:27together at a transcendent third. That's
13:30Aristotle, too. But see, that's the
13:32distinction between a healthy
13:34>> ambition and the one that's that becomes
13:36fussy and self-regarding. Correct. You
13:38know.
13:38>> Yeah. And and I think it can become even
13:40the desire. This is again the social
13:43element to human beings. It's not always
13:45a vice. It's it can very often lead to
13:47virtue, right?
13:48>> But it has to be ordered in in the right
13:50way. And so, you know, if if let's say
13:52you take two politicians who both are
13:55trying to achieve the common good,
13:57>> now that can lead to them working
14:00together, them recognizing their
14:02respective strengths and weaknesses and
14:04actually trying to sort of do that
14:06together, right?
14:06>> That could also lead to well, if we both
14:09want the same common good and then we
14:11both, let's say, we both want the same
14:12office in order to get to that common
14:14good, then that leads to rivalry again
14:17for rivalry sake. And so I I do think
14:19that one of the takeaways of sort of
14:20this this throughine of Augustine to um
14:24to Gerard is that you constantly have to
14:26be on guard
14:28>> and recognize that something that is
14:31good in you can be ordered to something
14:33very positive but can also be distorted.
14:36And this is you know you talk about
14:37Satan like I I think of of of you know I
14:41forget who's who has this quote but the
14:42devil's greatest trick is to convince
14:44people that he didn't exist. There is
14:46this this thing where
14:49it's like a very very good thing and
14:51pointed in the right direction. If you
14:52just get a little off pace, it can
14:54become quite malicious very quickly.
14:57>> It can turn like that. It's a subtle
14:59thing which is why you need prayer and
15:01spiritual direction a lot in your life
15:02because you can be going this path. Oh,
15:04I'm on the magnanimous path. I'm just
15:06seeking.
15:07>> No, but you actually took a turn a while
15:08ago. But and the the signs of it though,
15:11look at in Galatians, look at the fruits
15:13of the of the flesh. you know, Paul
15:14calls some or look at at mimemetic
15:16rivalry breaking out. Then you know
15:18you've deviated from the right path.
15:20>> That's right.
15:20>> But I to my mind, spiritually speaking,
15:22that's the great thing in this book that
15:24people can really get. It applies to
15:26anybody, no matter what field you're in.
15:28>> How are you desiring? What's the nature
15:30of your desire and and you tell a moving
15:32story about your own, you know,
15:34conversion.
15:35>> Um, hey, tell me a bit more because I
15:37was really interested in the stuff on
15:39Catholic social teaching on the economy.
15:41>> Sure.
15:42um raram navarum the great you know
15:44fundamental text of the Catholic social
15:46teaching tradition Leo I the 13th late
15:4819th century a text you read even in
15:51your atheist period and you found
15:53>> powerful and and naming dynamics in the
15:55political order better than many people
15:57were left center and right
15:58>> that's right
15:59>> tell me what was it exactly that that
16:01grabbed you about that text
16:03>> well there are a few things I mean one
16:06is I I was just I was compelled by the
16:09fact that it was trying to strike a
16:10balance
16:12very
16:17industrializing
16:20communism, fascism, all these things
16:22rising up. And yet even though that you
16:25know like Leo the 13th doesn't talk
16:27about the fascist movement 70 years
16:29later 60 years later you can kind of see
16:32he's very worried about the tumult and
16:34he's very worried that if we don't
16:35strike the right balance between human
16:38dignity and prosperity between workers
16:40and capital owners that that it's going
16:42to inevitably lead to this conflict. So
16:44that's that's that's one thing that I
16:46found profounding profound about it is
16:48just the recognition that the balance
16:49really mattered. The other thing that I
16:51think is very interesting and I actually
16:53was was sort of thinking about Rum Narum
16:56in the speech that I gave on July 4th.
16:59There's this idea that in in Markx that
17:03the classes have to inevitably eveitably
17:05be in conflict against each other.
17:08>> And then I think that there's this idea
17:10in more traditional libertarian or free
17:12market thinking that you know there
17:15there's there's sort of never any real
17:18conflict. It's and to the extent that it
17:20is it's all a violation of individual
17:22rights. Whereas I think what Rio Nvaram
17:24is saying is that yes conflict can
17:27sometimes be an inevitable part of these
17:28social changes but the way to solve the
17:31conflict is by cooperating between these
17:34different sort of segments of society.
17:38And what a statesman should be doing,
17:39what somebody who's focused on the
17:41common good should be doing is not
17:42pretending that like there isn't a
17:44problem if you have destitution on the
17:47one hand and extreme wealth on the
17:48other.
17:50>> But also not pretend that the solution
17:52to that is conflict. The powerlessness
17:55versus the powerful and then the
17:57powerless sometimes win and the powerful
17:59sometimes win. There there can be a real
18:02compromise. And what you know in some
18:05ways the idea of a of a labor union you
18:08know there's sort of the classical
18:10Marxist understanding of a labor union
18:12which is conflict between the owners and
18:13the workers.
18:14>> But in the Catholic view it it's
18:16actually not conflict it's this is an
18:20institution that is meant to give the
18:21workers some say certainly some
18:24bargaining power some anchoring and
18:27there can be a more cooperative
18:29arrangement from there. doesn't always
18:30have to be a zero sum battle of one
18:32against the other. And I I I try to
18:35think about that a lot is how how can we
18:38how can we gear certain policy outcomes
18:40in a way that doesn't ignore the
18:43problems that come with destitution but
18:45tries to solve it through cooperation as
18:47opposed to conflict.
18:48>> Yeah. I think it's the central thing and
18:50you know we bishops wrestle with a lot
18:52because we're trying to teach the
18:53Catholic social uh doctrine and of
18:56course it famously doesn't fit within
18:57the leftight
18:58>> correct
18:59>> you know language of of our political
19:00parties and the way you put it there is
19:02really good because Ram Navarum stands
19:05>> firmly a thwart socialism it offers like
19:09five strong arguments why we don't like
19:10socialist or communist arrangements on
19:13the other hand you have a line like this
19:14from Leo the 13th once the demands of
19:17necessity and propriety have been met in
19:20your own life, everything else you own
19:22belongs to the poor.
19:23>> Yes.
19:24>> Now that's that's classical Thomas
19:26Aquinis. That's the universal
19:27destination of goods. Meaning
19:29>> this world belongs to God really. We're
19:31all stewards of it. And so once you know
19:34necessity and propriety now those can be
19:35defined broadly.
19:37>> But once that's been met in your life,
19:39the rest of your property belongs to the
19:42poor. Yeah.
19:43>> And I've been saying that to Catholics
19:45for years. Like that's a deeply
19:46challenging teaching. It's extremely
19:48challenging
19:48>> just as the opposition to forms of
19:50socialism is a deeply challenging
19:51teaching and Catholic doctrine is
19:53somewhere in that space.
19:55>> Yes.
19:56>> Not popular all the time. That's why you
19:58know we get caught in the crossfire a
19:59lot.
20:00>> No. No. I I I would say like not popular
20:03most of the time. And even in my own
20:04life and I I think about this all the
20:06time with our own economic policies in
20:08the administration is you're trying to
20:10strike that balance between promoting
20:12prosperity but also promoting the
20:13dignity of the poor, the dignity of
20:15workers. It it's it it is again it's a
20:17hard balance to strike. I'm not saying
20:19that it's easy, but again I I do think
20:21at its best what Catholic social
20:23teaching is doing is sort of asking very
20:28difficult questions and posing very
20:29difficult challenges to people like me.
20:31And I I like one of the the the basic
20:35axioms or the basic principles that I
20:37try to apply when I think about this
20:38stuff is to the extent that I get really
20:41comfortable that a thing that we're
20:43doing fits within Catholic teaching, I
20:46that's the thing that I should resist
20:48because it's not easy. It's it's
20:50demanding a lot of both public officials
20:53but also of all of us. And we, you know,
20:56we talk about this, of course, Bishop,
20:57with um w- with with the immigration
21:00question, right?
21:02>> And I I I think again there there is
21:05this demand that you treat people with
21:07dignity. There's also an acceptance,
21:10maybe even endorsement of the fact that
21:12nations are allowed to control their
21:13borders. How do you balance these things
21:16when controlling your borders inevitably
21:18leads to law enforcement operations that
21:20sometimes can uh can create can create
21:23issues? That's the balance that we we
21:25fundamentally have to strike. And I
21:27think to the extent that we ever feel
21:29comfortable, that's probably a sign that
21:31we should get out of the comfort zone.
21:32>> Yeah. And you know, it's we can stay at
21:35the high level of abstraction and and we
21:37tend to agree at that level. when you
21:38get down to cases,
21:40>> okay, in this particular case
21:42>> because I bring that up at our bishop's
21:44conference. I mean, we're always very
21:45strong on, you know, Jesus welcoming the
21:47stranger and being open to the immigrant
21:49and, you know, all of us look in my own
21:50dascese, we have a lot of folks from
21:52Honduras and Guatemala come to work in
21:54the port processing plants in my
21:56dascese. So, we all face the pastoral
21:58challenge of, you know, people coming to
22:00our country and and and being taken care
22:02of and so on. But then yes, as you say,
22:05the the right of a country to defend its
22:07borders, to enforce its immigration
22:08laws, and that see what I would say is
22:11it's not my job as a bishop to work out
22:14the details of that particular policy.
22:16That's your job. That's a job of people
22:18who really know what's what's obtaining
22:21on the ground and so on. Yeah.
22:22>> And that's an ongoing problem. That's an
22:24ongoing issue. How do we bring these to
22:26bear? I think my job as a bishop is to
22:28bring the great principles to bear and
22:29make sure that they're they're taught
22:32publicly and so on, but then it's the
22:33job of Catholic politicians, I would
22:36say, to now apply these in the
22:38particular case.
22:38>> That's right. And that that that's how I
22:40think of it, too. And I think that for
22:42that to happen the right way, for you to
22:45play your role correctly and for me to
22:47play my role correctly, it just requires
22:49a constant ongoing dialogue because as
22:52you get into the nitty-gritty of
22:53applying these principles in the real
22:55world, you're not always going to do it
22:57perfectly. There are going to be ways in
22:59which the pastoral duties sort of maybe
23:02we're not taking proper account of it.
23:05Yeah.
23:05>> So I I I think at its best again there
23:09is going to be an inherent sort of
23:14there's going to be a relationship where
23:15the clergy are constantly sort of trying
23:19to engage on these issues in a positive
23:21way and then we're constantly trying to
23:24apply these principles in the best way
23:26and the most consistent way and and that
23:28will you know as we've seen sometimes
23:30with uh the the Vatican and and our own
23:32immigration policies that sometimes does
23:34lead to conflict. But, you know, one of
23:36the things I've I've tried to drive home
23:38just over the last, you know, few months
23:40where I've been talking a lot about this
23:42and there's been a lot of discussion
23:43about, you know, the Catholic clergy
23:45disagreeing with Trump administration on
23:47this or that issue is I I try to say,
23:49you know what, like that's actually okay
23:51because that dialogue is sort of how the
23:55clergy does its job and it's how we sort
23:58of respond
23:59>> and and that's not a bad thing to me.
24:02like the there's this idea and it's
24:05again it's because of our like hyper
24:06mimedic political media but like every
24:09time the pope says something mildly
24:11critical of a Trump administration
24:13policy it's like oh the Trump hat the
24:15the pope hates the Trump administration
24:17>> well you know actually no maybe the pope
24:20is trying to provide the kind of moral
24:23teaching that is inherently part of his
24:25job and then we have to take that and
24:27try to apply it which is part of our job
24:29>> and conversation is essential to and not
24:32just
24:32>> kind of exchanging invective at a high
24:35level of abstraction because at the high
24:37level abstraction we tend to agree with
24:39each other. Yes.
24:41>> You know, openness to the stranger. Yes.
24:43A right to defend the border. That's
24:44right.
24:45>> Now, let's get down to cases. But to do
24:47that, you have to be in steady
24:48conversation.
24:49>> Exactly. Which is why I kind of, you
24:50know, not to take this obviously you ask
24:53whatever questions you want to, father,
24:54but I always found the conservative
24:57reaction to Pope Francis. I say this as
25:00a very conservative Catholic. I take the
25:02teachings of the church very seriously.
25:04I'm obviously very politically
25:05conservative. But I always kind of liked
25:08that Pope Francis would just throw these
25:09bombs out there in the media because it
25:12would force a conversation. Now
25:14sometimes, yeah, he would say things
25:16that I would say, wait a second, is that
25:17actually consistent or is that correct?
25:20But it forced a dialogue and he was kind
25:23of a genius at that. Stay stay with
25:25Francis for a minute because I think
25:26that document late in his papacy called
25:29Dignitas Infinita. Yeah. Is one of the
25:31best summaries of Catholic social
25:33teaching in its breath and its variety.
25:36Sure.
25:36>> So all you know leftwing people Yeah.
25:39love this this and that. Right-wing
25:40people love this this this and that. All
25:43the above
25:44>> and uh that was a good challenge you
25:47know to the political conversation.
25:48>> That's right. Um no Francis was was uh
25:52another good example is that universal
25:54destination of goods. So in another one
25:56of his later documents he talks about a
25:58nation's obligation to poor nations.
26:02>> So again once the demands of necessity
26:04and propriety have been met the rest of
26:05what you own belongs to the poor. That
26:07applies personally but also at the
26:08national level.
26:10>> Well he was being criticized by a lot of
26:11right-wing Catholics as a Marxist. I
26:14hate Marxism, but I wrote frequently
26:16saying, "No, that's not Markx. That's
26:18Thomas Aquinus." What he's saying there.
26:20>> So, that's a good example of how to
26:22shake up that conversation in a good
26:24way. That's right.
26:25>> And we should keep having it. Yes.
26:27>> That's what bugs me in some way. We We
26:28don't have it
26:29>> uh at the level we should. Well, and
26:31that's again back to the point of the
26:32the devil being a deceiver is one way to
26:36try to turn people's minds off of
26:40very traditional and I think ultimately
26:42true Christian teaching
26:44>> Yeah.
26:44>> is to name it as something else. Again,
26:47the right to your point, Catholics have
26:50very serious theological problems with
26:53Markx like we are not Marx Marxists,
26:56>> but there are ideas that are very not
26:59Marxist, but are also extremely
27:01Christian about the universal
27:02destination of goods that we have to
27:04contend with. And and again, like I I
27:07talk about this a little bit in the
27:08book. I'm not saying I have all the
27:09answers. I'm not saying I I know how to
27:11apply all these principles in the
27:13perfect way. there's always this kind of
27:14balance between, you know, promoting
27:17economic growth, but then ensuring that
27:19everybody has their sort of, you know, a
27:22good a good opportunity to get their
27:24piece of the pie, so to speak. But I I I
27:27find this just one of the things that I
27:30liked and one of the things that more
27:33importantly spoke to some deep part of
27:35me about the Catholic social teaching is
27:39this idea that Jesus Christ does not
27:43confine himself to little spheres of
27:45your life.
27:46>> That if it's true, it has to be true
27:48everywhere.
27:48>> And he's the Lord of your life, the
27:50whole of your life.
27:51>> Exactly. And he and he and Yes. like
27:53Jesus really cares about how you treat
27:55your wife and he really cares about how
27:57you treat your kids, but he also cares
27:59about everything else too. And I I do
28:01think that this is, you know, one of the
28:04frustrations I had growing up as a again
28:06as a young conservative Christian is
28:09this this idea that it sometimes felt
28:12like whenever Christians engaged in
28:14politics, we were very comfortable
28:16engaging with this or that social or
28:18cultural issue,
28:20>> but but not anything else. Mhm.
28:22>> And I actually think there's there's an
28:24opportunity for us to rediscover a more
28:27fully Christian politics that says that
28:29actually Jesus has opinions about all
28:31these things. And and in fact, if you
28:34don't get all of it right, you risk
28:37getting the most important parts wrong.
28:39You can't just confine your faith to
28:42these narrow little slices of society or
28:45of culture or of your own life. It's got
28:47to be true for the whole thing. Remember
28:50CS Lewis's line about uh most of us if
28:52we invite Jesus in is to the front
28:54parlor of the house for an hour a week
28:56and then please go away. Yes. But he
28:58wants to be lord of the living room and
29:00the dining room and the bedroom and the
29:01kitchen and the basement and the pool
29:03house.
29:04>> He wants to be lord of the whole
29:05operation. And that includes the our
29:07economic and political lives. We can't
29:09bracket those. That's not spiritual
29:10stuff. Of course it is. Everything.
29:12Yeah. No. And and I I think I gave into
29:13this again more in my sort of
29:15anti-Christian age. But there was a part
29:19of me that wanted to say
29:21God should be about God and religion.
29:24>> Churches should be about churches. Leave
29:26the politics to the politicians. But but
29:29again, I if you really believe that
29:31Jesus Christ is the son of God and you
29:34believe all the truths that flow from
29:36that, to your point, he actually has a
29:38lot to say about all parts of your life.
29:40>> Right. And see, I think the answer is
29:42people like yourself and others that
29:43that I've met, for example, in the Trump
29:45administration, a lot of Catholics.
29:47>> Yeah.
29:48>> Good. I Catholics in positions of high
29:50influence who understand the political,
29:52economic, social, all the details. I
29:55don't understand all that's not my
29:56Bailey wig. That's your Bailey wig.
29:58>> But to bring your Catholic formation and
30:01sensibility into that work is a way to
30:03do it. You know, I love the chapter in
30:05your book on the dismal science on
30:06economics because it reminded me very
30:08much of my training not far from here at
30:11Catholic U when I was a kid many years
30:12ago. Yeah. And we great professors of
30:14philosophy who would say we get it today
30:17completely backwards in in the classical
30:19world. Let's say Plato Aristotle.
30:20>> The point of politics was to make us
30:23virtuous. It was to make us good. Yes.
30:25To seek the common good to create the
30:27right society.
30:28>> Economics, right? Literally the law of
30:30the household was private matter. That's
30:33it was a household affair, right?
30:35>> And we reversed it where now they almost
30:39everything in politics is about
30:40economics. That's our main preoccupation
30:42economics and the moral order. Oh,
30:44that's private.
30:44>> That's right.
30:45>> Well, that stayed in my mind ever since.
30:47That's a really insightful thing. And
30:48you were catching that, I think, uh, as
30:51you look at how we measure the value of
30:54life and how much of political discourse
30:55is about GDP and it's it's read through
30:58an economic lens almost exclusively.
31:01That's right. and how problematic that
31:03is. Talk about that a little bit.
31:04>> Yeah. And [snorts] and it's not to say
31:05that, you know, growth doesn't matter.
31:07If you don't have growth, if you don't
31:08have prosperity, then obviously a lot of
31:10people will suffer. But, you know, a
31:12friend of mine made this observation. He
31:14called it economic piety, which you
31:16know, he was he was it's it's a play on
31:18words p i e t y. Okay.
31:21>> Which this idea is that we we have
31:23become so obsessed with the economic
31:25measurements that that's how we judge
31:28ourselves. That's how we judge our
31:29success as policy makers. and and like
31:32fundamentally let's just take like a a
31:34very simple example when a you know
31:38let's say you have a young married
31:39couple both are in the labor force okay
31:43let's say mom gets pregnant they have
31:46their first child and like a majority of
31:49American women right if you actually
31:50look at the data what most American
31:53young moms say that they want is that
31:55they want to spend a little bit more
31:56time with their kids when the kids are
31:57young but they also want to have access
31:59to their career
32:01Okay, economically, right, if you're
32:03purely measuring it by the economic
32:05statistics, the very best thing is for
32:08that young mom to literally go back to
32:10work the day after she has the baby. So,
32:12if if and this is like obviously it's an
32:15absurd argument that's meant to
32:17illustrate something, which is that if
32:18you obsess purely on what you're
32:21measuring economically, then you can
32:24come to all these like very distorted
32:26conclusions. And you will sometimes hear
32:28as as absurd as that example is,
32:30obviously we want, you know, even even
32:33the moms who want to go right back to
32:34their careers need a couple of weeks
32:36just to recover from obviously
32:37[clears throat] the stress of delivering
32:38a baby.
32:39>> But sometimes, you know, you will hear
32:43politicians on the other side say things
32:46like, well, you know, abortion is is
32:49really good because if you didn't have
32:51abortion, then you'd have way too many
32:53women who weren't able to join the
32:54workforce. It's like, wait, wait, wait a
32:57second. I I if I if if that's our
32:59argument here, our argument is that it's
33:02good because it allows people to join
33:05the workforce, then we have made an idol
33:07out of the American corporation. We've
33:09made an idol out of economic growth. And
33:11again, that is what I think is a deeply
33:13anti-Christian idea because the economy
33:16exists to serve the human person. We
33:19don't order our society so that we have
33:22a line on a chart go up. And if you do
33:24then it leads to a lot of absurd
33:26outcomes
33:27>> and the market can make us good. Think
33:30of like a Michael Novak you know
33:31argument that there are virtues
33:33associated with participation in market.
33:35>> Think of John Paul II saying the whole
33:37purpose of regulating the market is not
33:39to eliminate it is to invite more people
33:42into it and make it more entrepreneurial
33:44and make it more you know of a growth
33:46producing reality. To me that's a good
33:50place to get. It avoids the easy, you
33:52know, bifurcation,
33:53>> of course. Yeah. And and it can also
33:55lead I I think if you're obsessed again
33:57with the short-term economic numbers, it
33:59can lead to a lot of short-term
34:02thinking. Like one of the criticisms
34:04that I have of the the 20th century
34:07economy and I and I think it actually
34:10previewed the rise of Donald Trump and
34:13his ascension within Republican politics
34:15is that we didn't think enough about
34:18long-term investment
34:20>> and you know oh let's let's ship the
34:23factory to Mexico or to China. Now if
34:26you measure it by the economic
34:27statistics shareholder price goes up by
34:302.2% 2% and you know maybe GDP goes up
34:34by.1% and that actually was a rational
34:36decision but then all of a sudden after
34:3825 years of that you look and you
34:40realize you've atrophied the skills of
34:42your workers you've atrophied your
34:44industrial base you've made yourself
34:46less self-sufficient as a nation and so
34:49again even by its purely economic logic
34:53this short-term financial thinking can
34:56lead to some very bad outcomes
34:58>> let's think of that for a second uh I'm
35:00intrigued by how the two parties, the
35:02two great parties in our country have
35:03changed a lot in the last maybe 25
35:05years.
35:06>> Sure.
35:06>> Um how did Trump most change the party
35:09of let's say Ronald Reagan? Uh the first
35:11election I was able to vote in was
35:13Reagan 1980. Yeah, I was 20
35:16>> and um you know the people that trained
35:18me were very much shaped by JFK and the
35:21civil rights movement and the Peace
35:22Corps and all
35:24>> my generation it was Watergate. It was
35:26the end of the Vietnam War. was the
35:28Carter Malaise etc. For our generation,
35:32my generation, Reagan comes along as
35:34this great, you know, sunny optimistic
35:36figure that does bring the country back
35:38to greater economic health and so on.
35:40How is how has the party changed from,
35:42let's say, Ronald Reagan 1980 to to now?
35:45What's the biggest change? you know,
35:46Republican party.
35:47>> There's a lot there's a lot there, but I
35:49I do think the single biggest change is
35:52in the way that President Trump thinks
35:55about the economic development of the
35:58country versus versus President Reagan.
36:01And again, I think we're all in some
36:02ways subjects of our time. I don't mean
36:05this as a a great criticism of Ronald
36:08Reagan, but I I I do think that this
36:10idea that globalization in the economy
36:14was just an inevitable law that was
36:16going to march along and to the extent
36:18that your economic policy mattered, you
36:20should be facilitating it rather than
36:22pushing back against it. And I think
36:24what President Trump has brought is a
36:25recognition obviously I agree with this
36:27a recognition that there is a national
36:30and community element to economics that
36:33like you know if you look at it again
36:35purely by the economic numbers it
36:37doesn't matter whether your antibiotics
36:38are manufactured in China or whether
36:40they're manufactured in Milwaukee or
36:42Indianapolis but if you look at it from
36:44the perspective of what actually makes
36:46nations strong of course you have to
36:48manufacture antibiotics closer to home
36:51because if god forbid there was some
36:53conflict ICT or even just a coidl like
36:55supply chain disruption. You don't want
36:57to wake up in a country as we did in
37:00late 2020 where our doctors didn't have
37:02enough hospital gowns and hospital masks
37:05because of the supply disruptions.
37:07>> So I I I think there's just this
37:08recognition that, you know, yeah, you
37:11can buy and sell with other countries,
37:12you can trade with other countries, but
37:14you have to have some native economic
37:17self-sufficiency.
37:19And and that is a big difference. If you
37:20go back to the early Reagan era, if you
37:22look at what Milton Freriedman was
37:24writing about economic policy at the
37:26time, there are a lot of things where he
37:28would say, you know, particularly like
37:31let's say tariffs to protect your
37:32pharmaceutical industry. Milton Friedman
37:34would say that's insane,
37:35>> right?
37:36>> I think that Donald Trump clearly had
37:38the better of the argument then. I don't
37:40know how you even, again, I'm biased,
37:43but now the president saying, of course,
37:46we have to protect our pharmaceutical
37:47industry, our steel industry. that has
37:50now I think become almost conventional
37:52wisdom to the point where you know one
37:55one way of measuring success politically
37:58is at what point does a given idea
38:02become broadly accepted and then it's
38:04just a question of how to accomplish it.
38:06So if you go back to, you know, one of
38:08Reagan's great successes, Bill Clinton
38:10famously said the era of big government
38:12is over, right? He had sort of won that
38:14argument to the point where even the
38:16Democrats were mirroring his talking
38:17points. If you look today in 2026,
38:20Democrats may disagree about how we're
38:22doing it. But everybody pretty much
38:25agrees we have to bring more of our
38:28industry back to the United States of
38:30America. We have to be more
38:31self-sufficient.
38:32>> It's you mentioned Milton Freeman. I'm
38:34dating myself, but I remember this
38:35interview with um Phil Donahghue. The
38:38younger people don't remember Phil, but
38:39he was, you know, this talk show host
38:41had serious people on and uh Milton
38:43Freeman was an older man at the time and
38:45treated Donnu like a bright but not very
38:47well read, you know, sophomore and was
38:49laying out, you know, the fundamentals
38:50of the very lazy fair, you know,
38:52hands-off economic approach.
38:54>> And it's an entertaining interview, but
38:56it strikes he was that's not Catholic
38:58social teaching. We believe in the
38:59market. We do. We don't like socialism.
39:02We don't like we believe in the market
39:03but a market regulated in a morally
39:06alert manner. Something like that and I
39:08think that's what you're you're
39:09gesturing toward there.
39:10>> That's right.
39:10>> Tell me I asked the same question to uh
39:13Roan. I had him on my show. I I talked
39:15to Tom Suis about this.
39:17>> You know I'm from Chicago originally.
39:18I'm an Irish Catholic which meant
39:20Democrat. My family was involved in
39:23Democratic politics in Chicago. Um,
39:27Roie Wade had a lot to do with uh,
39:29Catholics getting uneasy with the
39:31Democratic Party,
39:33>> but [laughter]
39:34what has happened like the last about 10
39:37years where the Democratic Party today,
39:39it seems to me, is one that my father
39:40would not even recognize.
39:42>> Sure.
39:42>> Give me what's your read what happened
39:45>> to sort of to my in my judgment sort of
39:48radicalize the party.
39:49>> Yeah. So, I think a few things have
39:51happened. First of all, I do think that
39:52the the most fundamental change is
39:54religious. And in in you know, my my
39:57grandparents were classic blue dog
39:59Democrats. My grandfather was a Union
40:01Steel worker. This is the man who raised
40:02me.
40:03>> Scoop Jackson type Democrat.
40:05>> Yeah. Absolutely. And you know, voted
40:07for Reagan in ' 84 and otherwise never
40:10voted for Republican ever in his life.
40:12Right.
40:13>> So what what what happened though is if
40:15you go back to that that Democratic
40:17party in the 1980s
40:19>> and I actually talk about this I think
40:20some in the book that you know religious
40:22identification religious attendance both
40:25Republicans and Democrats were equally
40:27Christian. Yeah. They may have went to
40:29different churches and obviously, you
40:31know, Jewish Americans at the time were
40:34more in the in the Democratic party and
40:36the Republican party, but there there's
40:37still just this sense of we're like a
40:39broadly speaking ecumenical god-fearing
40:43country. You see that in both the
40:45Democrat and the Republican parties. I I
40:47think that what has happened is that
40:49religion itself has become very
40:52disfavored among democratic elites in in
40:55some ways for the reasons that I talk
40:57about in the book. And I and I think one
40:59of the really troubling trends in
41:00democratic politics and I always ask
41:02this question when I think about who is
41:04a really compelling Democratic
41:06politician on the other side. I always
41:09ask myself, who are the black candidates
41:12who came out of the black church
41:15>> because that is such a core anchor of
41:19the the Democratic party in this
41:21country. And if you look today, like go
41:23to go to the US Congress and ask
41:25yourself what Democrats under 50 came
41:28out of the black church, the answer may
41:30be none.
41:31>> You won't find any.
41:32>> The answer may be none. So, so I I I I
41:34do think that what has happened is that,
41:35you know, Christianity has always had
41:37this moderating influence on politics
41:40and unfortunately the Democrats have
41:43become less and less comfortable with
41:46any sort of religious role in politics
41:48and I think that's again as Jester said
41:51that doesn't mean they believe in
41:52nothing that believes they believe in
41:54anything and I think you see that very
41:56much in today's modern Democrats.
41:57>> Yeah. I mean look at somebody like like
41:59Martin Luther King. Um, so the civil
42:01rights movement is not just participated
42:03in by religious people. It was led by
42:05religious people.
42:06>> Correct.
42:07>> Explicitly gospel-based people. Uh,
42:10>> King gives the great speech on the steps
42:11of Lincoln Memorial and effortlessly
42:13weaves together American themes and
42:15biblical faith. Absolutely. Letter for
42:16the Birmingham City Jail. Same thing.
42:19Weaves together American civil rights
42:21activism and Thomas Aquinus.
42:23>> Like a super theologic letter from
42:25Birmingham jail is a super theological
42:27argument. People underappreciate that.
42:29And I, you know, I gave a talk at the
42:31250th thing on the the mall and I made
42:33that point because I was saying just as
42:35you know Jefferson uh these rights come
42:37from the creator and we're created equal
42:39and so on that that's what King saw as
42:42well that the American ideal is grounded
42:44in a finely biblical ideal. It's not
42:46theocracy. It's not the imposition of
42:47religion, but it's the information of
42:50the political by the religious. And
42:52yeah, I I would agree with you there
42:54that that's been lost in a lot of our
42:56political discourse and convictions.
42:58That's right.
42:58>> Um,
43:00tell me a little bit about I have a
43:01quote here from you uh when you went to
43:03the um Munich security conference.
43:07>> It's a really interesting gathering of
43:08some of the leading lights in politics,
43:10economics, the military too, I suppose.
43:13>> Here's your quote.
43:14>> It was Western Christian civilization
43:16and the values particular to it. The
43:18concept of natural rights including
43:20freedom of speech, a sense of duty to
43:22one's neighbors and obligation of the
43:23strong to protect the weak. Meaning
43:26that's what that undergurted the
43:29convictions.
43:29>> Correct.
43:30>> And that's even that's been lost.
43:32>> That's right. Yeah. So, so this is a
43:35very formative thing for me. So, I just
43:37become a United States senator.
43:39>> Yeah.
43:39>> I was, you know, young. I was sort of up
43:41and coming and I go to the security
43:43conference which really is it's the
43:45defense conference in the world
43:47especially for the United States and its
43:49allies. And of course, you know, the
43:51Ukraine conflict is sort of top of mind
43:53there in Munich, but there are a lot of
43:55other sort of bigger and deeper
43:56questions like what is the Western
43:58Alliance stand for? And what I realized
44:01is
44:03there is an extraordinary Christian
44:07foundation to the entire Western
44:09security alliance. like the person who
44:12founded the Munich Security Conference
44:14was one of the Christians who was
44:17involved in the attempt to assassinate
44:19Adolf Hitler and he was one of the few
44:21who survived.
44:22>> But then you you actually look at, you
44:24know, that that early postwar western
44:26alliance. Look at Eisenhower, some of
44:29the things that he said. I mean, he
44:31religious be called a theocrat if you
44:33gave anything like Eisenhower's speeches
44:36today.
44:36>> Or Conrad Adnau on the German side,
44:38right?
44:39Absolutely. And and and but all of these
44:42western leaders, they thought that they
44:44were creating something very influenced
44:47founded on a Christian concept. And now
44:51and what I saw in Munich was was a
44:53certain sense of tragedy or sorrow.
44:56There was a nostalgia for that era. Like
44:58the Western Alliance in 1950 was so
45:01strong and everybody felt and this is I
45:03guess in 2023. Well, now it's so weak.
45:06And I I I was kind of struck by the fact
45:09that people weren't asking the question,
45:12well, what had really changed about the
45:14West from 1955
45:17to 2023?
45:18>> It's obvious what chang
45:19>> and it's obvious, right? It's it's that
45:21our societies kind of lost that binding
45:25moral vision, that unifying moral
45:27vision, and they were trying to
45:29recapture all of the good things out of
45:31it without the underlying foundation.
45:33and they're and they're and they're
45:34they're almost, you know, there was
45:37something because I went into this
45:38conference and I remember I was kind of
45:39angry at them. I felt they were naive. I
45:42felt like they were dumb. I felt like
45:43they weren't really understanding what
45:44was really going on in the world. And I
45:47came out actually with this deep sense
45:48of respect but also sorrow because
45:52they're nostalgic for a world that
45:54doesn't exist anymore, but they can't
45:56quite bring themselves to get it back.
45:59Well, you know, it's that Will Herzburg
46:00the cut flowers theory, you know, that
46:02we cut flowers, you put them in a vase,
46:04they'll look fine for a while, but then
46:06they'll die in short order. They're cut
46:07off from their base. Well, the same
46:09thing with the great moral values and
46:10political values that that inform people
46:12like Eisenhower and Adnau and that
46:15generation. They were rooted in the
46:17ground of Christian faith.
46:18>> Correct.
46:19>> Now, cut them out. Oh, human rights and
46:21the freedom and the individual and put
46:22them in the in the water. Yeah, they
46:24look good for a while, but they are
46:25going to fade.
46:26>> Yes. And that's what you noticed, huh?
46:28>> That's exactly right.
46:29>> You know, and my little sermon on that
46:31point, and I it's self-reroachful here,
46:33is I think the church has lost their
46:35nerve. The church that I came of age in,
46:38so not because of Vatican 2, but after
46:40Vatican 2 was a hand ringing church. It
46:42was an apologetic church. It was unsure
46:45of itself,
46:46>> but that the church of the era you're
46:48invoking, that's a time of also like a
46:50Reinhold Nebore, right? The theologian,
46:52a Paul Till comes to mind, too. Thomas
46:54Merin, Fulton Sheen, of course, edify
46:57him soon. But these sort of confident
46:59Christian voices that were drawing upon
47:01the Bible and Augustine and Aquinus, the
47:03great people, they were applying it to
47:05the political conversation in a robust
47:07way. The church I came of age in was
47:10this hand ringing. I'm not sure we're
47:12here to listen to the culture. Uh I'm
47:14not I'm not here imposed upon you.
47:16>> That was a disaster.
47:18>> I agree. It seems to me and what you're
47:20saying and I really agree with it. Both
47:22are stronger when right both religion
47:25and politics are stronger when they're
47:27in a robust confident dialogue with each
47:29other.
47:30>> Uh and religion rightfully claims its
47:33place as as the ground the fertile
47:35ground out of which these values emerge.
47:38Augustine would have held that. Aquinas
47:39would have held that. Thomas Jefferson
47:41held it in his own enlightenment you
47:43know way. Uh Martin Luther King clearly
47:46held it, right? That's that would be my
47:49uh diagnosis. End of sermon on that.
47:52>> No, I look I I totally agree. And this
47:54is, you know, again, I think this scares
47:57certain non-religious people because
47:58they assume, okay, you know, Senator JD
48:01Vance, when I was a senator, I'm going
48:02to pick up the the phone and call Bishop
48:04Baron to tell me how to vote on a
48:05particular piece of legislation. No, no,
48:06that's not what we're talking about.
48:08What we're talking about is a more
48:09morally and spiritually assertive
48:11church. and the country just it needs
48:14it. And this is there are all these
48:16reasons why I wrote this book. I think
48:17the main reason I wrote this book is
48:19because I was trying to sort of puzzle
48:21through as a parent. Why does religion
48:23take for some kids and not for others?
48:25Well, why not start with me? Because I I
48:28I myself was raised in a religious
48:30family and then fell away from it and
48:32came back. But I I do think there is an
48:35implied message to the church itself and
48:37this is why I talk so much about Francis
48:40is like don't be so afraid to speak the
48:44truth of the gospel. The country
48:45actually needs it. And I and I, you
48:47know, I I talk about this a little bit,
48:49but okay, one of the craziest
48:52experiences I've had since being vice
48:54president is I went to do a TPUSA event
48:57>> and I was talking backstage to the kids
49:00>> and you I hate to say that, but they are
49:02kids to me, right? I'm 41 years old.
49:03They're all in their their late teens,
49:05early 20s to me. Yeah, that's right.
49:07[laughter]
49:08Um, but you know, I I just like was
49:10hanging out for a little while and
49:12talking to him and and and one just sort
49:14of crazy throughout, you know, she was
49:17like, you know, I think social media and
49:19AI is totally changing dating. And I was
49:22like, oh, really? Well, tell tell me
49:23more about that. And, you know, I live
49:25in a bubble. I'm surrounded by secret
49:26service agents. So, like whenever I like
49:28get in front of a crowd and I'm actually
49:30able to have a conversation, it's almost
49:32like, you know, a thirsty man gets to a
49:36well. I just like tell me all about this
49:38because it's so fascinating to me.
49:40>> And she was explaining that her and her
49:43friends
49:45were like engaged in in text
49:47conversations with with boys that they
49:49were seeing was to feed the conversation
49:52into chat GBT [laughter] and then to
49:54have chat GBT spit out
49:56>> like serum berserk, right?
49:58>> And I'm like, whoa, this is this is
50:00crazy. And then and then I I realized
50:02actually talking to these these kids
50:04like you cuz some of them were, you
50:07know, they were actually close to
50:08getting married, some of them were
50:09dating, some of them were just like very
50:11very down on and it was almost like an
50:14itch had been scratched cuz all of them
50:16just all of a sudden were telling me
50:18what what a bad situation there was in
50:22the dating culture. And I realized that,
50:24you know, the the the technology
50:27that actually brings man and woman
50:31together successfully is the church.
50:34>> Yeah.
50:34>> And yet, so you have young people who
50:37are using chat GBT and they don't want
50:39to. And meanwhile, you've got a church
50:42that actually is really good on this
50:44stuff and is an amazing institution to
50:47bring young men and women together and
50:49yet still feels to me a little bit like
50:52what you talked about sensitive or
50:54almost there's a lack of self-confidence
50:57that I see in the church. But the
50:59country needs a more assertive church, I
51:02think, to get back on track.
51:03>> Yes. You know, Pope Benedict said that
51:05the what people want out of a priest. He
51:07was saying it's not you know social
51:08worker it's not psychologist someone to
51:10hold your hand they want a master in the
51:12spiritual life
51:13>> yes
51:14>> I thought right now of course who is his
51:16great hero Augustine
51:17>> and what young people anybody but
51:19especially young people want they want a
51:21guide doesn't mean someone imposing
51:23himself and all that you know proitizing
51:26not that but someone that with
51:27confidence can say like what we talked
51:29about the outset of this conversation
51:31there are certain dynamics in the
51:32spiritual life that the great masters
51:33have known forever and things that are
51:36making us very unhappy. The church has a
51:38lot to say about that. Yes. Here is why.
51:40You know, um and so yeah, an assertive
51:43church in that good sense. Absolutely. I
51:45think is what we want.
51:46>> That's right.
51:46>> Hey, tell me a little bit. I was very
51:48intrigued by, you know, famously you're
51:50one of the last people to see Pope
51:51Francis alive.
51:52>> Yeah.
51:52>> Uh and he asked to see you and you're
51:54very moved by that. And here was a very
51:56frail man literally about to die had the
51:59conversation with you. But then
52:00afterwards you sat down I think it was
52:01Cardinal Peril and some of the other you
52:03know foreign policy people and and you
52:06just felt that they didn't get beyond I
52:07think as you put it trit platitudes.
52:09Yeah. It kind of speaks to our earlier
52:11part of the conversation but say a
52:12little bit more about that is what what
52:14was dysfunctional in that conversation.
52:16>> Yeah. So and I should say it's it's um
52:19the archbishop there who's who's from uh
52:22I think he's from Ireland Gallagher.
52:24Yeah. So, you know, he and and Cardinal
52:28Perilin, I I've spent a fair amount of
52:29time with them over the past year and a
52:31half. I have a lot of respect for them,
52:33but I also think that there was in in
52:36the first meeting that I ever had with
52:37them, I I found Cardinal Peril
52:39particularly fascinating, especially
52:40when it's just you and him one-on-one,
52:43>> but in this formal diplomatic setting,
52:45you're in this beautiful castle at the
52:47Vatican and you're in this amazing room.
52:50It just felt like they were they didn't
52:53want to move past the diplomatic
52:55platitudes
52:57>> and you know they they would say well of
53:00course a country has a right to control
53:02its borders but you know we would really
53:04prefer that you show more respect for
53:07the dignity of the migrant and it's like
53:10okay father
53:10>> which seems everyone of goodwill would
53:12agree with that.
53:12>> Exactly. Like father I don't disagree
53:14with that. Yeah,
53:15>> but like let's talk what what do you
53:17actually mean here or
53:20here's here's my my basic summary of
53:23that is is again I I think that there is
53:25a an impulse within the church
53:28>> that is very comfortable in dealing with
53:31the highest level of generality
53:34>> because then it's not challenging to
53:35anybody but I think what the country
53:37actually needs what society what the
53:38entire world actually needs again is not
53:42there's like the nitty-gritty
53:44We we don't need the pope to be the
53:46president or a king, but we I think need
53:49more than the level of generality that
53:52we currently see coming out of of the
53:55clergy today. And that's of course a
53:57difficult balance to strike. You know,
53:59you get sometimes too close to the
54:00details, sometimes too general, but I
54:03feel very strongly that right now the
54:05current hierarchy is way too
54:07uncomfortable dealing with anything
54:10other than abstraction. And that has
54:12that just really has to change. And like
54:14I you know I'm the vice president of the
54:15United States encouraging them to be
54:18more active even though I know it will
54:21mean they sometimes are going to be more
54:23critical of the things that I do or the
54:24things
54:26the conversation is very important. And
54:29I I think you know Pope Leo obviously is
54:32is is very new in his his pontificate.
54:35He's a very young man. Obviously, he
54:36understands American culture better than
54:38any any um pope in history. I really
54:43hope that he
54:46he actually changes this because I I
54:49think that he has he's clearly a
54:51brilliant guy. He's clearly a very holy
54:53man.
54:53>> Augustinian.
54:54>> He's an Augustinian. And I I think that
54:57at its best, he could make the church
55:00engage with the world in a much more
55:03direct way. And I, you know, we'll we'll
55:05see. I I think you see signs of that
55:07happening. I thought the AI encyclical
55:08was very very good. But I I think that
55:11is what the world actually needs out of
55:13the church in this moment. It is in a
55:15period of crisis. And the church in some
55:18ways is in a technological age. It's the
55:22most ancient technology that's ever
55:24existed.
55:26>> And the reason it survived this long is
55:27because it actually works.
55:28>> Yeah. Let me in the remaining minutes uh
55:31shift back into maybe a more personal.
55:33>> Sure.
55:33>> How do you pray? What's your prayer life
55:35like?
55:36>> Yeah. Well, I'm trying to get better on
55:38this. This is one of these things where
55:40you get out of practice on it and it's
55:42hard to fully get back into practice,
55:44>> but you got to take the time. That
55:46Thomas Merin, someone asked him, "What's
55:48the one thing I can do to improve my
55:50prayer life?" And Merin said, "Take the
55:51time."
55:52>> Yes. That's That's
55:53>> Was the number one recommendation.
55:54>> That's right. So what I I I normally
55:57will do and and this is you know a bit
56:00of practice is in the morning I will try
56:02to do a decade of the rosary and then
56:05before I go to bed as well and that's
56:07just kind of you know do the ala our
56:09father do the glory be do the Hail Mary
56:12um you know of course you know pray with
56:15the kids before dinner time
56:17>> but the thing that I'm I'm trying to do
56:19a little bit more is to get is to get
56:22the kids into it as well so to say
56:24prayers before bedtime, but probably 80%
56:27of the time I I fail on that because
56:30either bedtime is too chaotic or because
56:32I'm at the White House. So there's the
56:34thing I I I one of the things that I
56:37lost from going from my Christian
56:41upbringing to becoming an atheist is I
56:43just got out of practice with it. Yeah.
56:45And I found actually one of the things
56:46that really attracted me to Catholicism
56:48is that when I got back into prayer,
56:52it's like I didn't have a natural voice
56:55for prayer anymore. And it's hard to
56:57describe, but it's like when I was 17
56:59and I would get on my knees and clasp my
57:01hands together, I would know what to
57:02say.
57:03>> When I was 28, I didn't know what to say
57:04anymore. But there are all these prayers
57:07Yeah. that you don't, you know, you just
57:09doing it, getting into the practice of
57:11it. And this is one of the things that I
57:12always encourage people to do is
57:14>> you don't have to be perfect. You don't
57:16have to say you don't have to have this
57:18like super eloquent prayer. Sometimes
57:20just doing it is the most important
57:23thing. And so that's what I try to do at
57:24least once in the morning and once at
57:26night.
57:26>> Practice your way into it, right? So
57:28take the time but also have a practice.
57:31Um I also I think it's great to carry
57:34some symbol of faith around with you. So
57:36someone like you, I mean who facing
57:38every day tough decisions, important
57:42decisions affecting the lives of
57:43millions of people literally around the
57:45world.
57:46>> Sure.
57:46>> Um
57:47>> that you have a rosary in your pocket or
57:49you have a a crucifix or you've got a
57:51icon or something that you carry with
57:53you. Yeah.
57:54>> That you can touch with your hand.
57:56>> That's a good idea.
57:57>> Lord, help me.
57:58>> Yeah.
57:58>> You're you're tempted or you're you're
58:00torn. What do I do? How Lord, help me
58:03with this. You know, something as simple
58:05as that. Yeah. the, you know, the
58:06>> Jesus, I trust in you is sort of I I
58:09probably say that a dozen times,
58:11>> which is terrific. And the Jesus prayer
58:12is thinking of, you know, Lord Jesus
58:14Christ, son of God, have mercy on me, a
58:15sinner, repeated over and over again.
58:18And you get a little thing called the
58:19shotkey, a little
58:22rope of of um knots, you know,
58:25>> and carry that in your pocket.
58:26>> Okay.
58:27>> I think that sort of thing that really
58:28concretizes it. Having the kids too
58:30learning the ways of prayer, that's
58:31great because you know, kids, you got to
58:33discipline. Say just do it. That's
58:34right. I don't get I don't care if you
58:36just do it. But then you can participate
58:38in that too and say, "Okay, I'm going to
58:40I'm going to kneel down with you." I I'm
58:42with CS Lewis there too that you know
58:43the body has so much to do with prayer
58:46and that's a very Catholic thing. It's
58:48not just a platonic exercise of I'm
58:50going to flee from the body up to God.
58:52No, God is incarnate and and so prayer
58:55is something I do. So that kneeling like
58:58folding your hand or as a Catholic I was
59:00even even holding the rosary can put me
59:03in an attitude of prayer because it's an
59:05embodied thing. Sure, you know.
59:06>> Sure.
59:07>> But I think for someone like you as a
59:08Catholic in very high office and very
59:11important influence that right worship,
59:14you know, that you're ordered to God
59:16over and over again is uh is super
59:18important. Yeah. You know.
59:19>> Yeah. No, that's that's absolutely
59:20right. And and I I just want to be, you
59:23know, the one piece of advice I'd give
59:26is you don't have to be perfect at it,
59:28>> right?
59:29>> Like I there are just all of these ways
59:31in which, you know, it's 8:15 and I'm
59:35like, "All right, I'm going to get home
59:36and make the kids pray before bed and
59:38then I get home and, you know, it's like
59:40one we're trying to get the pull-up on
59:42and the other is, you know, arguing
59:43about brushing their teeth and then it
59:45just doesn't happen."
59:47what what I try to do is is like just
59:50try just do as much as you can. And one
59:54thing that I again the devil is a
59:56deceiver. One thing that was definitely
59:58true when I was like, you know, first
1:00:01getting back into the faith was this
1:00:04idea that, you know, this should be
1:00:06easier than it is, right? This should
1:00:08come more naturally. If God's actually
1:00:10speaking to me, then why why does this
1:00:12require so much like practice? And you
1:00:16know that that I think is the exact
1:00:18wrong way to think about it. You know
1:00:19sometime the reason it requires so much
1:00:21practice is because you know we are
1:00:23fallen creatures. Yeah. We're offer and
1:00:25the way that we get back to that good
1:00:27place is through the practices heaven
1:00:29will do. Yes.
1:00:31>> But we're in this fallen state where our
1:00:33our minds and souls and bodies are
1:00:35offkilter. And so but prayer is this
1:00:38conscious effort to say okay I'm going
1:00:40to I'm trying to get back online here. I
1:00:42maybe we can end with this. You know,
1:00:44um, Joseé Maria Esqueivva, the founder
1:00:46of Opus Day, someone was asking him
1:00:48about prayer and he said, and they
1:00:49thought, you know, I don't know how to
1:00:50pray. He said, the minute you say to
1:00:52God,
1:00:53>> I don't know how to pray,
1:00:55>> you're praying.
1:00:56>> Yeah,
1:00:57>> that's a great
1:00:57>> that's always helped me, you know, like,
1:00:59okay, that's all you need to do is take
1:01:01the time
1:01:02>> even to say, Lord, I'm lost. I I don't
1:01:05know. That's Thomas Merin's famous
1:01:06prayer begins, "My Lord God, I have no
1:01:08idea where I'm going." That's the
1:01:10opening line. you're already praying,
1:01:12you know, but I think for someone like
1:01:13you to to carry that symbol of the faith
1:01:15around maybe and to make prayer just a
1:01:17great idea a touchstone, you know, of
1:01:19your life.
1:01:20>> Well, with that, I think, Mr. Vice
1:01:21President, we'll bring it to a close,
1:01:22but thank you for taking the time out of
1:01:24your extremely important and busy
1:01:26schedule to talk to me today.
1:01:28>> Thank you.
1:01:28>> God bless you.
1:01:29>> God bless you. Thank you.
1:01:30>> All right.
1:01:38>> [music]

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