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The Untold Story of the Declaration of Independence | Victor Davis Hanson — Transcript

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0:00I mean, it's a miracle it exists.
0:01Congress was running away from the
0:03British during the Revolutionary War
0:06and the document went on the road with
0:07them. And there's you know, there's no
0:08guards for it. There's no you know,
0:10there's no secure storage for it.
0:12They're simply throwing it into we don't
0:14even know because they don't tell us,
0:16but they're either throwing it into
0:17sacks or chests. They're putting it on
0:19the carts. They're taking it out in the
0:20middle of winter, in the middle of
0:22summer.
0:23Of course, the the greatest threat is in
0:251814 and by the you know, just by the
0:28skin of its teeth 24 hours less, it
0:32escapes the British who you know, march
0:34into Washington. They defeat the ragtag
0:36American force at Bladensburg in in
0:39Maryland and then march into the city
0:41and then right next to the White House
0:42is the Department of State where the
0:44Declaration was and burned to the
0:46ground. So,
0:48if not for the incredible foresight of
0:50this of a clerk named Stephen Pleasanton
0:52and James Monroe, Secretary of State who
0:54says, "Yeah, you you might want to think
0:55about taking these documents out of the
0:57city." Really an afterthought.
0:59The British almost certainly would have
1:00burned it.
1:02>> [music]
1:07[music]
1:11>> Hello everybody. This is Victor Davis
1:13Hanson for the Victor Davis
1:16Hanson in his own words podcast. I'm
1:19doing solo today. Jack Fowler and Sami
1:21Wink are not with me. It's one of our
1:24frequent interviews, but I am
1:26talking to Michael Auslin. He's a
1:29colleague of mine at the Hoover
1:30Institution
1:31and his formal title is Payson
1:34Treat Distinguished Research Fellow at
1:36Stanford University's Hoover Institution
1:39and you know him probably from op-eds in
1:42the Wall Street Journal and he's got a
1:44brand new book out from Simon & Schuster
1:46called
1:47National Treasure: How the Declaration
1:50of Independence Made America.
1:53Thank you for being with us. If it's all
1:55right, I'll call you by what I know you
1:57as Misha rather than Michael. And I'm
2:00happy to that you're with us, Michael.
2:02Misha.
2:03>> Thanks, Victor. Thanks so much for
2:05having me, and it's great to see you.
2:06>> Yeah. And we're going to take a quick
2:08break, and we'll be right back with an
2:09interview with Michael Auslin and his
2:11new book, National Treasure.
2:13>> If you enjoy Victor Davis Hanson, you
2:15might enjoy the Daily Signal's flagship
2:17show, The Tony Cannitcast. The same
2:19common-sense perspectives you love
2:21weekdays at 7:00 p.m. Eastern. And
2:23unlike some of the other evening shows,
2:25we work up until showtime to bring you
2:27the latest breaking news, analysis, and
2:29good old American sarcasm.
2:31>> Thom Tillis, um I'm pretty sure might
2:33have been useful at one time as a
2:35doorstop.
2:36>> Find The Tony Cannitcast on YouTube, X,
2:38Radio, TV, or wherever you get your
2:41podcasts.
2:42>> And we're back. Uh
2:44Misha, why don't you just explain um
2:47why you wrote the book on the I know
2:49it's a 250th anniversary,
2:52and maybe why people
2:55have in this generation need to reread
2:58the the Declaration of Independence, and
3:00then I can ask you some questions about
3:02it, the content.
3:04>> Well, yeah, I you know, um Victor, you
3:06know, a lot of folks who may have
3:08occasionally seen something I did, it
3:09was mostly about Asia, and it was
3:11usually America in Asia, and that was,
3:13you know, what I taught and and spent a
3:15three decades on. And I guess at at a
3:18certain point, you know, I was I was
3:20looking for answers abroad, you know,
3:22trying to understand the world,
3:23understand America abroad. You know,
3:25growing up in the Reagan era, that was a
3:27big it was a big thing. You know, we
3:28were winning the Cold War, and so we
3:30were going to, you know, change the
3:31world, which we did in many ways.
3:33Um but at a certain point, you know,
3:34maybe uh at least for me, I I sort of
3:37felt like I wanted to come home and ask
3:39the same questions I was asking about
3:42America abroad. You know, what what our
3:44interests were, what our history was,
3:45why we were doing what we were doing,
3:47but try to understand our own story
3:49better, which is something I just
3:50professionally had never uh focused on
3:53as directly, you know, indirectly.
3:56So, I started looking at a project on
3:58the history of Washington D.C. in the
3:5920th century trying to cuz I live in
4:01Washington, not California.
4:04I'm trying to understand
4:05how Washington became the imperial
4:07capital. So, part of it's an urban
4:09history and urban history has just
4:10simply interested me. So, I went down to
4:12the National Archives. It's a
4:14significant building in a significant
4:16part of the city Federal Triangle.
4:18And I was talking to the archivist who
4:20was telling me these stories about the
4:21Declaration. I didn't know any of them.
4:24I was a little embarrassed. So, I
4:25thought, you know, I'll go buy a book on
4:27the Declaration in the gift shop and
4:28they didn't have one. And they they what
4:30they didn't have was really the one that
4:31I wanted to read. They had
4:33actually at that point in time literally
4:34they had none. But, you know, there are
4:36books. There there are books that are on
4:38the the political theory and the
4:39philosophy and and trying to understand
4:42you know, was it John Locke or Scottish
4:44Enlightenment that influenced Jefferson.
4:46But, I was more interested in
4:49sort of our our daily encounter with the
4:52Declaration through our history. How
4:53Americans, you know, engaged with it,
4:56thought about it, and you know,
4:57commemorated it. You know, what it made
4:59them think about the country. Now,
5:01honestly, it was a book I wanted my
5:02parents to read and that I wanted to
5:04read. And so,
5:05before I knew it, that's what I was
5:07doing and we were about 2 years away
5:09from the from the
5:11semi-quincentennial.
5:13And I found out that no one else was
5:15writing a book quite like that. There
5:17are other books coming out, but nothing
5:18that takes it from 1776 to today.
5:22So, that's really why I did it.
5:24>> And then
5:24and everybody should be aware that it's
5:26not just the content and the environment
5:30or the atmosphere in which it was
5:31written, but you
5:32you have some fascinating information
5:35on the odyssey or detail of the actual
5:38document. And maybe you could enlighten
5:40us on some of that that in times of
5:42conflict people were very worried that
5:44it might vanish or something.
5:46>> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's a miracle
5:48it exists. And in fact, because I
5:50started this at or came up with the idea
5:53at at the National Archives, my original
5:55plan was just to do a really quick book
5:57on the material history of the
6:00parchment, the one you go see with your
6:01kids at the National Archives. And you
6:03know, why is it here after 250 years in
6:06in really bad shape, but you know, why
6:08is it still here? Um and and it actually
6:10grew from that and and I talk about
6:13three declarations. Um the first one
6:16is this relic that you've just
6:17mentioned, the the the sort of official
6:20uh Declaration of Independence. Uh and
6:22I'll come back to that in just a second.
6:23The the second one
6:25is the symbolic one, the one that most
6:26academics will write about, you know,
6:28trying to understand what all men are
6:30created equal meant in 1776 and 1861 and
6:34today. Um and then the third one, uh
6:37which no one had written about, is the
6:39Declaration as a cultural object. Uh you
6:41see behind me three different printings
6:43of the Declaration. Um you know, and and
6:45so I go through the history of why do we
6:47hang the thing on our walls? Why do we
6:49put it on ball caps? You know, what so
6:50and so forth. I'm happy to talk about
6:52that. But to go back to your first
6:54question or you the question you asked
6:56is really the first Declaration. The
6:57relic, uh and it's an incredible
7:00adventure story. It's also an incredible
7:01scientific story that this uh this
7:05parchment, which no one at the time
7:07really thought was going to become an
7:09icon of any sort, uh and was just rolled
7:12up among all the other papers of the
7:13Continental Congress, survived. And and
7:16actually from 1776 on, it had a very
7:20harrowing life. Uh the the Congress was
7:22running away from the British during the
7:23Revolutionary War, uh and the document
7:26went on the road with them. And there's
7:27you know, there's no guards for it.
7:29There's no, you know, there's no secure
7:30storage for it. They're simply throwing
7:33it into We don't even know because they
7:35don't tell us, but they're either
7:36throwing it into sacks or chests.
7:38They're putting it on the carts. They're
7:39taking it out in the middle of winter,
7:41in the middle of summer. They're in um
7:44in Maryland, Pennsylvania, New Jersey.
7:46So right from the beginning this
7:49document that's going to become an icon
7:51is really battered about. Um
7:55even after the war, when there's no more
7:57threat, let's say the British will will
7:59you know take it back to London, let's
8:00say. Um government's still moving
8:02around. It's moving around Pennsylvania.
8:04It's it's in New York. It's in
8:05Philadelphia. It finally gets to
8:06Washington, D.C. But even there there
8:08there it's not settled buildings the way
8:10we have today. So the thing is still
8:12being moved around constantly. Are they
8:15moving it out of the city when there's
8:16yellow fever? They're bringing it back
8:17into the city. And so it it's just in
8:20terrible shape even just a few decades
8:23after it is is signed. Um of course the
8:27the greatest threat is in 1814 and by
8:30the you know just by the skin of its
8:32teeth, 24 hours less, it escapes the
8:35British uh who you know march into
8:37Washington. They defeat the ragtag
8:39American force at Bladensburg in the in
8:42Maryland and then march into the city.
8:44We don't think that they knew where the
8:46Declaration was and they weren't
8:48stopping really to loot. They were just
8:50they were burning straight off the bat.
8:52And uh when they burn the White House,
8:54they burn what's called Executive Square
8:56around it and right next to the White
8:57House is the Department of State, where
8:59the Declaration was. And it's burned to
9:01the ground. So
9:03if not for the incredible
9:04foresightedness of a clerk named Stephen
9:07Pleasanton who who got his uh got his
9:09you know sort of official orders, and
9:11James Monroe, Secretary of State, who
9:13says, "Yeah, you you you might want to
9:14think about taking these documents out
9:15of the city." Really an afterthought. Um
9:18the British almost certainly would have
9:19burned it. And so it's it's thrown into
9:21a cart. It's rushed into the Virginia
9:24countryside. It's thrown into a cellar.
9:26It's left there unguarded. You know,
9:28today
9:29you know, it's the most scientifically
9:31advanced casing with guards and security
9:33systems and the famous vault. They just
9:35threw it into a into a brick for for
9:37weeks.
9:38>> So, when do you when when do you think
9:40it attained a sacred status where people
9:43were aware that the original copy was
9:45sort of our national Bible, so to speak?
9:48>> Yeah, it was right after that, in fact.
9:50And and and uh
9:52remember, most Americans didn't even
9:53know that this existed because it was it
9:55was first secret, and then it was just a
9:57paper of state. So, it wasn't People
10:00knew the Declaration, and it had been
10:01printed, but that there was this
10:03parchment beautifully in engrossed and
10:06then signed by everyone. Nobody really
10:07knew.
10:09Once the story got out that it had been
10:11saved in the War of 1812, suddenly
10:15Americans went, "That's great. What was
10:17saved?" And so, it became more popular
10:20that people now wanted to see it. And
10:21so, we have accounts of those who either
10:24they had influence or they were simply,
10:26you know, um
10:28uh they they had enough uh gumption to
10:29try to get the Secretary of State to
10:31show them that they're rolling and
10:32unrolling the thing all the time. And
10:34so, people now really want to see it.
10:36So, two things happened in the late
10:381810s. First, a couple of guys come up
10:41with the idea um that we can make money
10:44off of making artistic reproductions of
10:47the of the Declaration. What they didn't
10:50do was uh redo the script entirely, but
10:53they did very faithfully redo the um the
10:57signatures. And that was the first time
10:59Americans had ever seen the signatures.
11:01So, from 1818 on, they're fascinated
11:03with the signatures and then with the
11:05lives of the signers that they'd never
11:07really talked about.
11:08Uh but but the text was very
11:11artistically done, and it it would have,
11:12you know, fact skis, and they would have
11:14cartouches, and they would have all
11:15sorts of, you know, bells and whistles.
11:17But then, in 1821,
11:20John Quincy Adams, the Secretary of
11:21State, he's looking at the document. He
11:23realizes it's 45 years later, and it's
11:26going to disappear.
11:27Um it's just not going to last much
11:29longer. They don't don't how to save it.
11:31But basically, he says, "Let's take a
11:32snapshot of it. So, he gets an engraver,
11:34William Stone, takes him 3 years, and
11:37whenever you see a declaration today,
11:39like the one in the middle over my
11:41shoulder, that with with the full script
11:43and it's beautifully done, whether it's
11:44the crinkly antique copy or a very nice
11:46printed copy,
11:48um that's from the Stone engraving.
11:51>> Mhm.
11:51>> Uh and that became, by the 20th century,
11:54that became the iconic vision or
11:57representation of the Declaration. But,
12:00all through the 19th century, people are
12:01making different types of of
12:04reproductions of it. Some very fanciful,
12:07some very faithful. We had over 100 of
12:09them by the turn of the 20th century,
12:11and then the Stone comes up. But, but at
12:13that point, it has become this icon for
12:16Americans, and as I'm doing right now,
12:18we're hanging it on our walls, or
12:20putting it in schoolrooms, goes into
12:22city halls and and churches and the
12:24like. And we do that really with no
12:27other document. So, the Declaration has
12:29>> whether all of these variants accurate,
12:31faithful, textual, or whether it's some
12:33modifications that people want to add or
12:35subtract.
12:36>> Some some were uh less faithful only
12:39because they were working off of
12:41corrupted uh printed block copies.
12:44Sometimes, well, first of all, one thing
12:46is that orthography was was, you know,
12:47not a scientific, you know, science at
12:50the at the time. Uh and so, different
12:52different capitalizations and sometimes
12:54different punctuation. Mostly, the words
12:57are there, but um there there were some
13:00done in the late 1800s where they tried
13:02to clean up some of the language. You
13:04know, you could Usually, that was fairly
13:06quickly discovered, and then they would,
13:07you know, they would try to go back to
13:08the original. Um but, what they would do
13:11was was put uh different things around
13:13it. There are some you can see in the
13:14Library of Congress that have
13:17statistical sort of statistical tables
13:19of population in the states and economic
13:21information all around the text. There's
13:24beautifully done, you know, again, they
13:26have fast keys as as um as sort of uh
13:29borders,
13:30um you know, Romanesque figures, you
13:32know, Liberty. Um it's surmounted by
13:34eagles. Everyone would have a little bit
13:36of a different take on it. And of
13:38course, in 1876, the Centennial, there
13:41are dozens and dozens of reproductions
13:43that they're selling. And it's this
13:45wonderful marriage of civics and
13:47commerce. And they're making money, but
13:49they're they're telling people this is
13:51your charter of freedom, as Abraham
13:53Lincoln said. So, put it on your wall.
13:56Tell your kids that this is their
13:57birthright.
13:58Um but, you know, pay us for the
14:00privilege.
14:01>> I remember in high school the first time
14:03we had it, and I'm doing this by memory,
14:06we all thought that all of the
14:07luminaries were going to be the signa-
14:10tories. So,
14:11there's Franklin, and there's Adams and
14:13Jefferson, but as I I'm I'm not
14:15mistaken, there's not Hamilton
14:17or Monroe.
14:19Or Washing- or Washington. What what
14:21what Why was that? Were they not at
14:23Philadel- What was it?
14:25>> They weren't. So, Washington's in the
14:26field. He's up in New York at the time.
14:28And in fact, he reads uh what what was
14:30printed right away, by the way, and you
14:32can see them over my shoulders here, are
14:34were called broadsides.
14:36Um the first one uh it was done by John
14:38Dunlap in Philadelphia on July 4th. And
14:42this was this was an official
14:43announcement. It was commissioned by
14:44Congress, and then it was sent to all of
14:47the state Well, you know, the colonial
14:49assemblies. Was sent to significant uh
14:51leaders, but it was sent to Washington.
14:53And he reads it as soon as he gets it.
14:54So, up and down the colonies, it's being
14:57read on different days as the post
15:00riders get there. So, pardon me, the
15:02first reading
15:04Philadelphia on July 8th. Uh then it
15:06gets up to New York on July 9th.
15:08Washington reads it.
15:10Eventually gets up to Boston.
15:12It takes 2 months to get down to
15:14Georgia. And it's not read in Savannah
15:16uh until uh sometime in August uh or
15:19later later August. So,
15:21um everyone's hearing it at a different
15:23point in time or seeing it at a
15:24different point in time.
15:25It's not signed until the beginning of
15:29August. You know, they got a lot of
15:31other things to do. And they really
15:32didn't Again, it's it's fascinating cuz
15:33we, you know, get to meet this is the
15:35national treasure. They didn't think,
15:37you know, we're going to we're going to
15:39you know, immortalize this and people
15:41250 years later are going to line up for
15:43hours to see it. But they do decide we
15:46need a more permanent version than the
15:48broadsides. So, they they commission
15:50Timothy Matlack, who's probably their
15:52top sort of their top calligrapher.
15:54He engrosses it and they begin signing
15:57it on August 2nd.
15:59So, the interesting thing is first of
16:01all, only those who were delegates to
16:03the Continental Congress sign. So,
16:05Alexander Hamilton's not, James Madison
16:08is not, James Monroe, who's very me much
16:10younger at the time, he's not.
16:12Washington's not.
16:15But also, many of the members who had
16:18been in
16:19Philadelphia on July 4th, they'd already
16:22left by August. You know, the
16:24declaration
16:25you know, independence was declared.
16:27They had other things to do. Congress is
16:28still sitting, but they're coming and
16:30going. So, some who were there, like
16:32Philip Livingston, who was actually on
16:34the committee,
16:35I'm sorry, Robert Livingston, who was on
16:37the committee to write the declaration,
16:38doesn't sign it. He's back up in New
16:40York.
16:41Others don't sign it because they're
16:43opposed to the idea at the time. And
16:46that's someone like John Dickinson of
16:47Pennsylvania. But he he goes and joins
16:51the army to fight. You know, he doesn't,
16:53you know, sit home and sulk. He's just
16:54saying he didn't think it was the time
16:56for independence, but now that it's been
16:57decided. So, there's a lot of people who
16:59aren't on it. And it's actually funny if
17:01you roll forward. We were just talking
17:03about the facsimiles.
17:04The second facsimile to come out, but
17:07the first that was proposed was by a guy
17:09named John Binns. And he does this
17:10really elaborate, really beautiful one.
17:13And he has three cartouches is the top.
17:16In the middle is Washington, then
17:18Jefferson, and then John Hancock.
17:20So, he sends these when he gets them to
17:23prominent Americans, including John
17:25Adams.
17:26And John Adams sends his back with a
17:28note saying, "Thanks very much, but I
17:29don't need it, and please don't send
17:31another."
17:32Because he didn't include Adams as as,
17:34you know, as one of these
17:36pantheon of gods of the declaration. So,
17:39there's this um, you know, there's as
17:41the declaration becomes the icon,
17:44the battle over its past, over who
17:46signed it, who didn't sign it, who was
17:47responsible for it, Thomas Jefferson or
17:49not, becomes a an object of battle in
17:53the 1800s. It's it's this new it's the
17:56last gasps of the old generation. So,
17:59Adams and and Jefferson are are feuding
18:01over who's responsible for it. And it's
18:04the new gasps of the first generation
18:06trying to to lay claim to it for their
18:08own purposes.
18:10>> The one The one that is signed though,
18:13and you discuss there's either
18:15iterations that Jefferson met some
18:16opposition about outlawing the slave
18:18trade. How many copies or how many
18:21versions
18:22did he have to get by the committee
18:24before they they agreed on this
18:26standardization of one copy?
18:28>> So, that's it's a fascinating question
18:30because they weren't taking notes. Now,
18:33in part everything that Congress did was
18:35under a cloak of secrecy. Secondly, they
18:38knew it was treason. And third, I I
18:39think they just literally didn't think
18:41it was that important. Um, we know what
18:44Congress did because they have the
18:45journals, which say Congress did such
18:48and such. What wasn't recorded were the
18:50debates, the arguments. Um, the only
18:52record we have even of the most critical
18:54debate of all over independence itself
18:57are private contemporary notes by Thomas
19:00Jefferson.
19:01So, that's all we have. We you know, we
19:03don't know how faithful it is to what
19:04was being said. We assume.
19:06Um, so what happens is uh, Congress
19:09adjourns because they want to get all
19:10the colonies on board for a unanimous
19:12vote. They adjourn on July 11th I'm
19:15sorry, on June 11th.
19:16They're going to reconvene on July 1st
19:19to be ready
19:21for the vote. They know they're going to
19:22get a majority, but they want the
19:24unanimity. But so to be ready for the
19:25vote, they appoint a committee to draft
19:28this announcement. There's also other
19:30committees that are appointed to make
19:32model treaties with France and Spain and
19:34to come up with articles of
19:35Confederation amidst all the other
19:38regular committees. So Jefferson gets
19:40the pen, he writes it out, writes it
19:42pretty quickly, probably 10 days or
19:44less, more like a week it takes him. He
19:47sends it to the committee and we don't
19:48know what the committee says. What
19:51happens is he has his rough draft, which
19:53still exists. It's in the Library of
19:55Congress.
19:56And as
19:58as the committee and then later Congress
20:00is going through this process, he's
20:03making edits following what they're
20:05doing.
20:06But then much later in life, as far as
20:09we can tell, he then annotates it. So he
20:11says, "Oh, this change was made by
20:13Franklin. This change was made by
20:15Adams." But many of the changes
20:18there's there's no accounting. We don't
20:19know who made them or suggested them or
20:22who said what. Um we know some of them
20:25or we believe we know based on what Adam
20:27said very crucially in the first line.
20:31Um Jefferson wrote, "When in the course
20:34of human events, it becomes necessary
20:36for a people
20:38to separate themselves." So on and so
20:40forth. And it's Franklin in his In
20:42Jefferson's hand says Franklin changes
20:44that to one people.
20:46Which is really critical, you know,
20:47because they're thinking of themselves
20:48as 13 sovereign states, but already it's
20:52the declaration talking about unity
20:54among these very different colonies. So
20:57So Jefferson on June 28th
21:00uh has shown it to the committee.
21:01They've made some of these changes.
21:03We're not exactly sure about all of
21:04them. And he writes out what he calls
21:06the fair copy. It's just a clean copy.
21:09He brings that to Congress. It's that
21:10moment that John Trumbull mythologizes
21:14and immortalizes in his painting later
21:16in the 18 teens. Um and it doesn't
21:18happen like that at all. It's a
21:19completely made-up scene. But, he gives
21:21this copy to Congress.
21:23Um we don't think any other copies of it
21:25are made officially by Congress to give
21:28to delegates.
21:29Um but they're all arguing over it. And
21:32uh they cut about a quarter of it. There
21:35are dozens and dozens of changes.
21:38Jefferson is so upset at what they're
21:40doing to it that he rewrites his own
21:43draft in about five different copies and
21:45sends it to friends and partisans
21:48saying, "See, this is what it really
21:49should be." Meanwhile, in Congress,
21:52they're taking out his passionate
21:54condemnation of the slave trade. They're
21:56also taking out a brutal ad hominem
21:58attack on the British people themselves.
22:00Um they're condensing some of the
22:02charges. They're uh they're changing,
22:04you know, they're uh they remove a
22:05reference to um inciting slave rebellion
22:08cuz they're very nervous about that. Um
22:11In essence, they're actually making it
22:12better.
22:13And uh by the end of his life, Jefferson
22:15recognizes that. And he it's why he has
22:18uh the request that on his tombstone,
22:21one of the three things that will be
22:22inscribed is author of the Declaration
22:24of Independence. He knew that the
22:26editing job was a pretty good one.
22:29>> We have a colleague, and I think all of
22:30our listeners know him very well, the
22:31wonderful Andrew Roberts in his um
22:34biography of King George, he dissects
22:36the Declaration and from a British point
22:39of view, and he dismisses
22:42many, but not all of the complaints that
22:45prompted the Declaration.
22:47Did people at the time in Britain reply
22:50formally to this, or was it it it was it
22:53considered just pro forma, or did they
22:55actually see this as
22:57a legal document that they were going to
22:59try to refute?
23:00>> There were dozens of replies. Um
23:02the King himself as and Andrew notes in
23:05his wonderful biography of George the
23:07III, uh, probably never read it and
23:10never, uh, referred to it directly. He
23:13obviously referred to the rebels and
23:14referred to what they did, but he never
23:16he never talked about the Declaration.
23:18Um, but there were dozens of responses,
23:21some of them
23:23full books, going point by point and
23:26much like what Andrew does in his
23:28biography. They go point by point. Uh,
23:30one of the most famous was by a an
23:32author named John Lind who literally
23:34goes point by I actually just saw the
23:35original copy or an original copy up at
23:37the Yale Beinecke Library and he starts
23:40off with with the very beginning and
23:41goes through each phrase and each
23:45charge, the 27 charges, uh, all together
23:47against the King, uh, refuting them all.
23:50And and most scholars, you know, agree
23:52that Jefferson was, uh, he was certainly
23:57passionate uh, and somewhat hyperbolic
24:00in some of them. Uh, but many of them,
24:01you know, obviously the taxation charge,
24:04uh, the quartering of soldiers charge,
24:05the making it difficult, uh, for, uh,
24:08assemblies to meet, for not assenting to
24:10laws. Most of those are are legitimate.
24:13Well, sometimes what Jefferson would do
24:15is say he has done X um, when he really
24:18did the King may have done it once and
24:21it's not continuous, but you read it and
24:22you think, "Oh, he's never assenting to
24:24laws." As opposed to there were times he
24:27didn't assent to laws. So, so that's
24:29where you know, our friends on the other
24:31side of the pond, uh, you know, get, uh,
24:34you know, a little touchy about, you
24:35know, whether this was really a
24:37legitimate set of grievances. But, you
24:40know, Jefferson is approaching it with a
24:42legal cast of mind and what we read
24:44today, you know, Victor, the the the
24:46preamble, uh, we hold these truths to be
24:48self-evident or the wonderful peroration
24:51of, you know, we pledge to each other
24:52our lives, fortunes, sacred honor.
24:54That was more or less window dressing in
24:561776. That was not what the people
24:59focused on. What the people focused on,
25:02because the whole issue of the
25:04revolution was protecting their rights,
25:06was grievances. The grievances laid out
25:09how their traditional rights as British
25:12Americans were being taken away in a
25:15conspiracy by the king, his ministers,
25:18and Parliament. So, they really cared
25:21about these charges. And today we barely
25:24read them, but
25:26This funny, if you read through them,
25:28is if your eyes glaze over after a
25:30certain point, but some of them even
25:32have a
25:33a resonance to today. So, there's one
25:35uh where he says, and you know, they
25:37don't number them, but one of them says,
25:39uh "The king has sent hither swarms of
25:42officials to eat out our sustenance."
25:45And you know, you read it and you sort
25:47of it resonates with sometimes what
25:50people say about Washington, D.C. today.
25:52Swarms of officials not doing anything
25:55but eating out our sustenance. You know,
25:57you can see that some of these same
25:59debates are going on. Like, how how what
26:01is bureaucracy? How should it run our
26:03lives?
26:04Are they necessary? Are they a waste?
26:06And you know, can we cut bureaucracy?
26:08And that's really what that charge was.
26:10So, some of these things you really do
26:12sort of stop and you go, "Wow, you know,
26:14it's
26:15We have some of the same concerns
26:16today."
26:17>> I I think that I'm I'm trying to
26:19remember which of these sort of
26:21radical populist movements
26:24about open ranging and things. They they
26:26mentioned quartering of troops when they
26:28said that
26:29when people were trying to arrest them,
26:31they used a barn or something that was
26:33theirs or, you know, every every once in
26:35a while that comes up. That certain
26:37>> what I don't I don't know as well. There
26:40there certainly are um the the quite so
26:43you know, some of the things they really
26:45were concerned about was taking away law
26:48legal processes from the colonies and
26:50moving it to Britain. So, for example,
26:51the um
26:53British officials charged with murder in
26:55particular would be tried in Britain and
26:56not and not locally. But but interfering
26:59with the legal processes and the
27:02legislative processes
27:04was really the thing that most animated
27:07the colonists. And and you know, they
27:09called it
27:10they were unwritten, but they called
27:11these their constitutions.
27:13This is what they felt they were they
27:14were defending.
27:16And you know, for Jefferson
27:18by the way, what he really wanted to do
27:19was write a constitution. He didn't want
27:21to write this administrative paper that
27:24was He was the youngest guy on the
27:26committee, so it's sort of forced on
27:27him, right? He wanted to write a decla-
27:29He wanted to write a constitution for
27:31the state of Virginia and in fact had
27:32started that right before being called
27:35to Williamsburg called to Philadelphia.
27:37He wanted to stay in Williamsburg and he
27:39brought with him the charges that are in
27:41the declaration. He had started writing
27:43those for the Philadelphia I'm sorry,
27:45for the for the Virginia constitution.
27:48So, to them, this is what's really
27:50critical. It's it's laying out now in
27:531776, eight of the 13 colonies are
27:56actually writing constitutions to to
28:00formalize in a way that hadn't been done
28:02before their ancient rights because
28:05that's what they felt was being taken
28:06away. Jefferson transposed that to the
28:10declaration, so we can see through that
28:13what really was the issue at at all
28:15these local levels, which was
28:18self-governance.
28:20>> We're with Michael Austin. He's got a
28:22new book out by
28:23Simon and Schuster, National Treasure:
28:25How the Declaration of Independence Made
28:28America. We'll be right back
28:30after we hear a word from our
28:33supporters.
28:34>> Hey, I'm Bradley Devlin and just like
28:36you, I'm a huge fan of Victor Davis
28:38Hanson. Whether it's his long-form
28:40podcast, Victor Davis Hanson in his own
28:42words, or his short-form content for the
28:44Daily Signal, Victor Davis Hanson in a
28:46few words, I always leave an episode
28:48learning something new.
28:49>> I think they forgot the 1982 Falklands
28:51War.
28:51>> And in the age of clickbait and rage
28:53bait, that's a really good feeling,
28:55right?
28:56>> The media, thank you. You can leave now.
28:59>> Well, if you agree, you might like my
29:00show, The Daily Signal's long-form
29:02interview podcast called The Signal Sit
29:04Down. Every week, we take you behind the
29:06scenes of the biggest battles in
29:08Washington, D.C. as they happen with
29:10some of the biggest names in politics.
29:12We explore big ideas, and we analyze the
29:14policy-making process from an
29:16unabashedly and unapologetically
29:18conservative perspective. And that's
29:20important now more than ever with the
29:21Trump administration back in office
29:23because in 2024, you sent Washington a
29:26message it couldn't ignore. It's your
29:28government, and together, we're taking
29:30it back. So, check us out on YouTube,
29:32Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever you
29:34enjoy Victor Davis Hanson, we're there,
29:36too. And drop me a follow on X at
29:38Bradley Devlin to stay updated with
29:39what's happening on [music] The Signal
29:41Sit Down.
29:42>> And we're back with Michael Auslin and
29:44National Treasure. I have a question,
29:46when the Civil War broke out,
29:48people like John Calhoun and John
29:50Breckinridge and Jefferson Davis, they
29:52looked at this, and there were so many
29:54Southerners that
29:57um Light-Horse Harry Lee and people like
29:59that had signed it, and they felt almost
30:02as if they had
30:04that they interpreted in a way that uh
30:08that made almost the Union play the role
30:10of Great Britain, it seemed to me, and
30:12they were the true inheritors. And that
30:14was I didn't realize that in the 1850s,
30:16there was a debate over the declaration
30:19in the context of the North-South
30:21rivalry that was heading toward war.
30:24>> Absolutely, and it was exactly
30:28that, and and later in the midst of the
30:30war, Jefferson Davis, the president of
30:32the Confederacy, says that what you just
30:34said, Victor, explicitly, we are the
30:35inheritors
30:37of freedom and and of the spirit of '76.
30:41Um
30:42they appeal to it
30:43uh
30:44for one of the two major claims in the
30:47Declaration. There's the equality claim,
30:49all men are created equal, and that of
30:51course is what animated Abraham Lincoln
30:53and and and formed his entire political
30:56philosophy and program. And then there's
30:59the uh liberty claim. Uh government is
31:01only legitimate with the consent of the
31:03governed. And the And in '76, these
31:06states have a right to do all these
31:08things as free and independent states
31:10do.
31:11Um
31:12when it comes to the crisis, uh the
31:15South does appeal to the liberty claim
31:19in saying
31:20we no longer consent to this government
31:22in their own declarations of
31:24independence. The first one is South
31:26Carolina in December of 1860. They state
31:29this explicitly, we no longer consent,
31:31and then they repeat verbatim from the
31:33Declaration stating you know, we have
31:36all the all the rights to do what free
31:38and independent states can do. Um
31:42even northern newspapers up to the war
31:45supported this position, and I quote one
31:48in the book that says, "Yeah, the the
31:49South is right. This is the central
31:51claim of the document. It's It's what
31:53gave it its force in 1776,
31:56consent of the governed. So, if they no
31:58longer consent, they can leave the
31:59Union, but
32:01the um the catch is you have to do it
32:04peacefully. And of course, [snorts] they
32:05didn't do it peacefully, and that's how
32:07Lincoln was able to deny
32:09that claim, but there's no question that
32:11the South felt as passionately attached
32:14to the Declaration as the North did. It
32:17was just a different interpretation, and
32:19and in fact, within the South, different
32:20interpretations uh even of the equality
32:23clause. Some, like Jefferson Davis,
32:25said, "No, not all men are created
32:27equal.
32:28And therefore, we no longer adhere to,
32:30you know, a government that's trying to
32:32enforce that. Uh even though Lincoln
32:34made clear he was not going to get rid
32:36of slavery in the South. But then
32:38there's others like Alexander Stephens,
32:40uh the vice president of the
32:41Confederacy, who writes that no, they
32:43that's they were right. That's what they
32:45meant. They meant that all men are
32:46created equal, but we don't we no longer
32:49believe
32:51that that is the right way. They're
32:52they're they're not he's not denying
32:54that all men are created equal. He's
32:56saying, "But we don't want to honor
32:58that. And so we're going to act in this
32:59way to maintain our as they called it
33:01the peculiar institution." Um so, I
33:04think that's a part that the northerners
33:06I'm I mean I'm a northerner didn't
33:07really understand. It's not that the the
33:09South hated,
33:11you know, the Declaration and what it
33:13stood for. They they passionately
33:14believed they were living up to the
33:16Declaration. And so it is, it's one of
33:18it remains our great tragedy tragedy.
33:21And it's very moving on both sides. It's
33:22moving that the South has to come to a
33:25new understanding of the Declaration
33:27after the war because their
33:29understanding has been refuted. And for
33:32Lincoln, of course, the great tragedy
33:35um is, you know, as he's going to
33:36Washington for his inauguration 1861, he
33:39stops at Independence Hall, talks about
33:42the Declaration, says I've never had a
33:43feeling that didn't emanate from the
33:45Declaration. And then he says, "And I
33:47would rather be assassinated than give
33:50up its principles."
33:51And 4 years later, he is.
33:54>> What is today
33:56in contemporary
33:58ideologies at war with each other, it
34:00seems to me that
34:02people on the left, maybe because of the
34:05later roll
34:06of the influence of the French
34:08Revolution, but they they seem to sit
34:11think that is the sacred document, maybe
34:13because of all men are created equal,
34:14where the Constitution, Bill of Rights,
34:17even though they're
34:18they're welded together, but it's more
34:20Madisonian. And
34:22was it is you feel today that that there
34:25are people on ideological grounds that
34:27gravitate toward the primacy of one
34:29document over the other, or do they see
34:31them complimentary, or
34:33>> Yeah, I think I think well, you know,
34:35the big debate of course with the
34:36Constitution is is it, you know, a
34:38living document, is it originalism, how
34:40you know, how much can you change it? I
34:42think there is, interestingly, and has
34:43been through our history, a debate over
34:45the Declaration
34:47with these two claims that I mentioned,
34:48the liberty claim and the equality
34:50claim. I think for the first 50 uh 50,
34:5360, 70 years, it was a liberty claim.
34:56Meaning when people referenced the
34:57Declaration, they usually referenced it
34:59as our great charter of liberty, or this
35:02was the document that essentially set us
35:04free. Lincoln recasts it in terms of the
35:08equality claim
35:10that all men are created equal, but he
35:12does that because he's saying without
35:14all equality, you you really don't have
35:16liberty.
35:17Um first of all, I think to Jefferson
35:19and the signers, they were two sides of
35:20the same coin. But Lincoln very much
35:23says, you know, we are if through the
35:24Dred Scott decision and through the
35:26Kansas-Nebraska Act of 19 of 1857 and
35:311854, respectively, that um
35:35uh we are mutilating the the meaning of
35:38the Declaration
35:39and how the Constitution is actually uh
35:43go you know, how
35:44the governing role of the Constitution.
35:47Um
35:48But of course, his goal is to is to
35:50preserve the Union. I think for us
35:53since the Civil Rights Movement, we have
35:55largely looked at the Declaration
35:57as an equality document. You know, that
35:59was the whole
36:00>> That's what Frederick Douglass said, I'm
36:02not I'm not inventing our freedom, I'm
36:04just demanding that you man up to what
36:06you said in the Declaration.
36:08>> Absolutely. All of the abolitionists
36:10did. That's right. That's right. And
36:12that's and that's why when you ask this
36:13question, I actually see
36:16um
36:16separate from the equality and liberty
36:18claims, I see an umbrella
36:21of a unity claim over the Declaration.
36:24When Frederick Douglass or David Walker,
36:26the abolitionist or or
36:28William Lloyd Garrison or Susan B.
36:31Anthony or Elizabeth Cady Stanton or
36:34immigrants
36:35Swedish
36:36Polish Greek and you know in the turn of
36:39the century when they all appeal to the
36:41declaration when they're translating it
36:43into their languages or they're making
36:44up their own declarations of
36:46independence all of them are trying to
36:49claim their rights their full rights as
36:51Americans they're not talking about
36:52separating from the country not talking
36:54about creating ethnic gendered racial
36:57economic enclaves. They're talking about
37:00being fully Americans and being accepted
37:02as Americans.
37:04And again, that's why I think that one
37:05people in the first line or we pledge to
37:08each other our lives fortunes sacred
37:10honor. They didn't pledge it to the new
37:11country or to their states. They pledged
37:14it to each other. I think there is a
37:16unity claim that is the proper reading
37:19of the document that is an umbrella over
37:22both.
37:23Um I do think since the 1960s and the
37:26Civil Rights Movement we have been more
37:27prone to read it simply as an equality
37:30document. But if you look at how Martin
37:32Luther King talked about it even at the
37:34famous speech in front of the Lincoln
37:36Memorial he's making very clear that
37:38equality is an end is a means to an end.
37:42The end is liberty right at that point
37:44they did not have their full freedom.
37:46And so he I think has that Jeffersonian
37:49and certainly Lincolnian understanding
37:52that it's not one or the other
37:54but it is that the two come come
37:56together.
37:57>> It's it's very different
37:59and I think
38:01you can see the Rousseau Voltaire and
38:03the French Enlightenment effect on the
38:05French Revolution when they have these
38:07even the slogan fraternity
38:08egalitarianism
38:10that's a lot more holistic. It's almost
38:12a quality of result whereas the
38:14declaration
38:16it does mention
38:17equality but it's very clear from the
38:20declaration and the Constitution it's
38:22talking about equality of opportunity
38:24and liberty.
38:26And then that seems to at the very
38:28beginning
38:29of the revolution and then the early
38:31nation, we were very different than what
38:34the European continental
38:36uh
38:36philosophers and the French
38:38revolutionaries thought. They really did
38:39want to have a year zero, we're going to
38:42remake
38:43uh you know, year zero, we're going to
38:45rename the names of the months, the
38:47year, days of the week, we're going to
38:49go after the church. But we were we were
38:51very fortunate that
38:52that's not in there. There's no
38:54indication that this is a cultural,
38:56social, economic, military, political.
38:58It's more just a political revolution
39:01and said, "We're going to let you be
39:02free and then you're going to determine
39:04your own
39:05ability based on equality of
39:07opportunity." That seems
39:10that that seems to be very important
39:11that even today distinguishes us from
39:14the European idea of government and
39:16freedom.
39:18>> I think that's absolutely right. Um you
39:19know, Gertrude Him- Gertrude Himmelfarb
39:21wrote a wonderful wonderful book called,
39:24I think it's Three Roads to Modernity,
39:25The French, British, and American
39:27Enlightenments.
39:28And
39:30you know, we we were thankfully children
39:32of the English Enlightenment and the
39:34Scottish Enlightenment. Uh and that's
39:37exactly and and and critical in in
39:40there, I think, is the religious
39:42element. That this was these were seen
39:45as as you know, natural rights, natural
39:49laws that had to be uh
39:52obeyed, that you know, had to be brought
39:53into um into balance with how people
39:57govern themselves so that you had
39:59limits. And that you know, that's why
40:00Congress puts in more references to God
40:03than Jefferson had in there. But clearly
40:05the the the
40:07the Declaration's a covenant. You know,
40:08it's a covenant among Americans, you
40:11know, we pledge to each other. But it's
40:12also a covenant between Americans and
40:14God. And And that that more moderate and
40:17congenial British Enlightenment, you
40:20know, whether meals a Scottish and
40:21English elements of it, combined with
40:23English common law
40:25uh and these these concepts of natural
40:27right and natural law
40:30um did mean
40:32that there was a a breaking mechanism
40:35on our revolution that the French did
40:37not have.
40:38Uh and you're exactly right this year
40:41zero, you know, Tom Thomas Paine tried
40:43to get us there a little bit right where
40:45he says, "We have it within us to make
40:47the world anew." And I think most of the
40:48colonists would have said, "No, no, we
40:49don't want to make the world anew. We
40:51want to save the old world that's
40:52disappearing." Meaning the world of our
40:54British rights.
40:55Um
40:56yeah, maybe yeah, you're making it anew
40:57with a new country and a new government,
40:59but but they felt that they were
41:01conserving not, you know,
41:04revolutionizing.
41:05Um or maybe the old the actual old
41:08concept of a revolution. They were going
41:10back to where they felt they they should
41:12have been. But um
41:13uh we're very lucky. Uh and Jefferson is
41:16in Paris by the way during the revol the
41:17French Revolution. And he's and he's
41:19talking with um people like like the
41:22Marquis de Lafayette. And he's saying,
41:24you know, um
41:25this declaration that you're coming up
41:27with is going too far. Um he wants to
41:30talk only about inalienable rights
41:32that can't be given away. And so he
41:34doesn't like the idea that you're
41:35putting property in there because
41:36property can be given away. It can be
41:38alienated. And so he already sees that
41:40they're going farther.
41:43>> We're talking with Michael Auslin. He's
41:44got a got a brand new book uh National
41:46Treasure. We'll be right back and we'll
41:48sum up
41:50um our discussion today. It's been
41:52fascinating.
41:54>> Since the founding of America [music]
41:55250 years ago,
41:58many things have changed.
42:00But some things never do.
42:02The commitment of husband and wife.
42:05The importance of passing along [music]
42:07our values to our children.
42:10The faithfulness of God.
42:12Some wonder how we can ensure [music]
42:13America will continue to thrive. As long
42:16as we keep first things first,
42:19we've only just begun.
42:21America the beautiful.
42:23>> And we're back with Michael Auslin, a
42:25national treasure.
42:27Uh when you look back at
42:30the Declaration, you every once in a
42:31while you get and I think we're in a
42:33period now where
42:35one of the political all both political
42:37parties are changing, but it does seem
42:39that the Jacobin view in the French
42:42Revolution is now sort of
42:44the base. When I hear people in the
42:47Democratic Party talk about
42:49equality, you know, man man uh
42:52equality of opportunity, a guaranteed
42:55income, a guaranteed this, a guaranteed
42:57that,
42:58and reparations, and this entire French
43:02Revolutionary view,
43:03do you have and
43:05you feel that there's more criticism of
43:07these
43:08foundational documents today or people
43:11attacking the Declaration or when you
43:14were doing your research,
43:15is it just a given that all Americans
43:18it's not a given they know what it is,
43:19but to those who know what it is, maybe
43:21in the universities are has the level of
43:24criticism of either constitutional
43:25declaration increased lately?
43:28>> I think um there's still the debate
43:30over, you know, when it says all men are
43:32created equal, what does that mean?
43:34Um I think there's no question that from
43:36the from the point of view of of men as
43:39children of God, Jefferson and all the
43:42signers felt that that everyone was
43:44equal. The problem was did they have the
43:47same rights in a political community?
43:48And there the answer is clearly clearly
43:50no. Um they didn't put it in these
43:53terms, but I think what what you're
43:54getting at, this question of
43:56equality of um
43:59opportunity versus equality of outcome
44:01>> Mhm.
44:02>> is really the one that we have come to
44:04this point uh or many have come to this
44:06point of saying, "Well, it's not just
44:07enough to have opportunity.
44:11The outcome The outcome must be the
44:13same." Sorry for the noises in the
44:15background there. Um the equality of
44:17outcome must be the same. And they they
44:19didn't They didn't put it in those
44:21terms, but but for them uh we we you
44:25know, we are now sort of on these
44:27battlefields
44:28uh of it. And so, the declaration, I
44:29think, does get drawn in. It's really
44:31more the Constitution.
44:33>> It is.
44:33>> You know, as as the formal legal
44:36battlefield that must, you know, where
44:38we fight these battles.
44:39>> The 3/5 clause about, you know, 3/5 has
44:42been misinterpreted. It was actually
44:44kind of a liberal effort to compromise
44:46so that the South
44:48couldn't get away with the idea that
44:51African slaves were not people, but they
44:54were going to be counted as people if it
44:56got them greater congressional
44:58representation. So, then the North,
45:00to save the
45:01Constitution, said, "Well,
45:03we'll give you some representation, but
45:05we have to
45:06signal that the you're not allowing
45:08these people to be completely free. So,
45:11the 3/5." And when you take that 3/5
45:13clause, and you compare it with all men
45:15are
45:16created equal in the declaration, you do
45:17get some kind of
45:19like friction, I guess, in the modern
45:21world, at least.
45:22>> Yeah, and and in fact, also just very
45:24briefly, in Jefferson's um
45:27condemnation of the slave trade in his
45:29draft of the declaration, he's he he's
45:32clearly states that what is being done
45:34to this distant people, meaning the the
45:36people from Africa being brought here,
45:38is against the the the moral law. And
45:42and he's making clear that they have
45:44rights as humans not to be captured and
45:48enslaved and brought across an ocean.
45:51That question of how do you deal with
45:53those here it is was a different one,
45:55you know, and again, the political
45:56community. But women weren't having, you
45:59know, didn't have same legal political
46:01rights or legal rights or political
46:03rights. And of course, the Indians uh in
46:05America were treated literally as a
46:07foreign nation. We made treaties with
46:10them as if they were a foreign nation.
46:13And so,
46:14but what I think, you know, to sum it
46:15up, that the greatness of the
46:16Declaration
46:18is that all of these silences in the
46:2018th century could be filled over time.
46:23And I think those who deny that the
46:26Declaration was the means by which we
46:29could come to a modern understanding of
46:33equality of all people, of what liberty
46:36means, I think they're they're
46:37misreading the document or reading into
46:40it things that really aren't supported
46:43because the document itself is enough.
46:45The document is has a greatness to it
46:47that allowed it not to just be forgotten
46:49on July 5th, 1776,
46:52but to inspire everyone up to and
46:54including us today.
46:57>> We're been talking with Michael Austin.
46:58I got two final questions. The first is,
47:00how can people What's the best way to
47:01get a hold of National Treasure?
47:04>> Oh, I mean, it's on everywhere. Amazon,
47:06Barnes & Noble. Yeah, just just when you
47:09when you Google it, you'll probably come
47:10up with the movie first. So,
47:12you can get the movie, but then keep
47:13looking for the book. Um you can also go
47:15to Simon & Schuster's uh own page, and
47:18they have links to all these different
47:20uh these different sites, but it's sold
47:21everywhere now.
47:22>> I know you're doing a lot of interviews
47:23and public appearances. Do you have any
47:25lectures that are open to the public?
47:27>> Oh, yeah, lots of them.
47:28>> Give us a couple of examples where they
47:30could come.
47:30>> Uh so, we're going to be So, let me see.
47:33We have the Nixon Library uh in
47:35California. I just did the JFK Library
47:37two nights ago. That's where we kicked
47:38off the book. We're doing the Nixon
47:40Library in um on May 27th.
47:44Uh June 11th, I'll be doing the National
47:46Archives in in uh here in Washington,
47:49D.C. Actually, tonight. Uh so, it's
47:51probably not going to get in time with
47:53the podcast is at Mount Vernon.
47:56Um there are a lot of different uh there
47:58are a lot of different uh things that
47:59are going on.
48:01But the Oh, and then in Philadelphia,
48:03Carpenter's Hall on June 9th
48:06>> Okay.
48:06>> is one and I have to look. There's
48:08actually a lot and I'm I'm just trying
48:10to keep them straight, make sure I show
48:12up to them all.
48:12>> Yeah.
48:13>> [laughter]
48:14>> And finally, what are you working on
48:15now? You finished this This was a little
48:17Everybody I think I should remind you
48:19what Michael said. He lived in Japan a
48:22number of years. He's fluent Japanese
48:24among other languages and
48:26he's he's known as a scholar of Asian
48:29studies in general and particularly with
48:31a specialization in Japan. But what are
48:34you What are you planning What are you
48:35working on now, Michael?
48:37>> Well, you know, it's it's been
48:38>> Other than trying to keep up with it.
48:40>> Yeah, it has been a bit of a whirlwind
48:41for 2 years and and focus but I I I
48:44think, you know, going back to that
48:45Washington book of trying to really
48:46understand how an imperial capital comes
48:50to be and and sort of the the the people
48:52and the ideas and the infrastructure
48:54that all makes it possible. So, I think
48:56that's at least something I'll be going
48:58back to to look at once I once I get
49:00past this but at least for a little
49:02while I'll I'll try to focus more on
49:04getting the word out about this book cuz
49:05I think, you know, what I hope we don't
49:07do is end our celebrations for the 250th
49:09on July 5th. I think it should go
49:11forward and we should be recommitting
49:13ourselves to its principles as President
49:15Truman and President Ford and others
49:16asked us to do. That we should be going
49:18forward talking about these things and
49:21hopefully, you know, this this book will
49:23get people thinking about the long sweep
49:25of American history and why it's an
49:27honest look. It's not a naive look but
49:29it is you know, it is a joyous look in
49:32many ways and a celebratory look at what
49:35we've accomplished and and how at the
49:36core of it through all whether it's
49:38World War II or the Cold War or the
49:40Civil War or whatever it is, the
49:42Declaration's been there for us and in a
49:44way we've been there for it.
49:46>> I hope I hope everybody hears that and
49:48and it bites. I'm I went to school about
49:522 miles from where I'm speaking a rural
49:54school from K through 6 and I can
49:57remember and almost all the classrooms
50:00there was a picture of the decoration,
50:01you know,
50:03an engraving and then one of the
50:04Preamble of the Constitution and then
50:06they had the silhouettes of pictures all
50:09the way around and I remember
50:12my first grade it was Eisenhower stopped
50:14and then JFK but it was everybody was
50:18acquainted with it and it was kind of a
50:20and
50:21I happen to be so-called white and it
50:23was mostly a Mexican-American.
50:26But it was a melting pot experience.
50:28Everybody took part of it and there was
50:30no distinction about your background or
50:32where you came from but it was it was a
50:34very
50:36deliberate effort at assimilation,
50:38acculturation, integration of immigrants
50:41and I think that's important.
50:43And any case, Michael, it's been a
50:46pleasure and I hope we can get you back
50:48on maybe later and you can tell us how
50:51everything went during the year. [music]
50:53>> I'd love to do that, Victor. Thanks so
50:54much for having me.
50:55>> Thank you.
50:59Thank you for tuning in to the Daily
51:01Signal. Please like, share, and
51:03subscribe to be notified for more
51:06content like this. You can also check
51:08out my own website at victorhanson.com
51:11and subscribe for exclusive features in
51:13addition.

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