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The True Story of Jeffrey Deskovic on his wrongful rape and murder conviction. Part 1 — Transcript

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0:00[Music]
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1:00[Music]
1:03good evening everyone and welcome to
1:05another edition
1:06of this is your city i am kim your host
1:12i i don't even know where to start with
1:14my guest today
1:15it's just something so different and so
1:18personal
1:20but can you imagine and i don't think
1:23any of us can
1:2516 years in prison and exoner
1:29exonerated by dna
1:34yeah in 1991 deskovic was convicted of
1:37raping and murdering a fellow high
1:39school student
1:41and he was sentenced to 15 years to life
1:44in prison
1:46and only after 16 years being spent in
1:49prison
1:50was jeffrey exonerated by dna
1:54in march of 2012 after finally receiving
1:57the personal means to do so
1:59deskovic acted on a dream since his
2:01release
2:02of establishing an organization that
2:05would help
2:06free innocent people who are
2:09or who were wrongly convicted
2:12and so he launched jeffrey deskovic
2:15foundation of justice
2:16where he used 1.5 million dollars of his
2:20own compensation
2:21from his own ordeal to make his dream
2:24come true
2:25he wanted to take the negative and turn
2:28it into something positive
2:30and to leave a legacy that of course
2:31would ultimately outlive him
2:34and what i find really exciting is that
2:37he didn't
2:38stay there what he did was he eventually
2:42went on and received a master's degree
2:44from the john jay college of criminal
2:47justice
2:48and then in mar may of 2019
2:52deskvick obtained a law degree from pace
2:55university
2:56and was admitted to the new york state
2:58bar
2:59in october of 2020. i just find that so
3:02exciting
3:04my guest tonight my guest
3:07jeffrey deskovic hi jeffrey welcome to
3:10the show and thank you for
3:12agreeing to sit with us how are you
3:15i'm i'm great uh very warm uh welcome
3:18thank you very much i'm
3:20happy you're sharing your platform with
3:21me today and i'm looking forward to this
3:23interview
3:24awesome i'm gonna do something a little
3:27different than i normally do with my my
3:29interviews and
3:31when i sit with my guests sometimes it's
3:32just like kind of having coffee
3:34and we you know we just talk about stuff
3:36but i feel like i need to
3:38honor you in a little bit where i get my
3:40facts straight so during this interview
3:42i might
3:43read off of some notes sure i typically
3:46do
3:47but just so i don't get anything wrong
3:49okay i'm going to do that
3:51this is real life and
3:54most of us thankfully cannot comprehend
3:56this so i want to get it right
3:58you are you know when i
4:01when you agreed to do this interview
4:03with me i was i was over the moon and
4:05i spent many nights pouring over some
4:08court documents some transcripts of your
4:10case
4:11i also read through some papers that
4:14were from the national registry of
4:15exonerations
4:17yes yes what what interests me was a
4:20report that i found
4:21on your conviction and it was prepared
4:23and requested by
4:25janet de fiore in westchester i think i
4:27got that right
4:29you did get that right you got all that
4:30right yes thank you the district
4:32attorney for there
4:33and and the reason that that really
4:36caught my eye and interest me because
4:38we don't often get the inside scoop of
4:41what
4:42the justice system and those involved
4:45did
4:45wrong right we don't really usually hear
4:48of that unless we watch the evening news
4:50or something
4:52and this document it it was full
4:55of things that went wrong in your case
4:58and yet
4:59you were still convicted and if you
5:02don't mind i'd like to just to go over a
5:04little bit of that before we get into
5:06the kind of behind the scenes stuff
5:08sure that's perfectly fine yeah
5:09absolutely how you steer the
5:11conversation up
5:12and how whichever way you take it is
5:14what i'm gonna follow along with
5:16awesome okay so let's start off with
5:20they did not test hair samples found on
5:22the body
5:24they didn't even take sperm or blood
5:26samples of any other people who may have
5:28been involved in this case is that
5:29correct
5:31yeah yeah well the caveat being that in
5:33terms of the hair
5:34they did compare the hair to me and they
5:37determined it didn't
5:38match me that it actually was from
5:40negroid and [ __ ]
5:41origin which you know i'm pretty much as
5:43white as you can get
5:45uh so the prosecutor's explanation for
5:47the hairs is he
5:49argued by inference he claimed well the
5:51hares must have come
5:52from medical examiner uh who's
5:54vietnamese and his african-american
5:56assistant
5:57but he never actually had samples
6:00collected from either of them
6:02so that the comparison could actually be
6:04made he just
6:05made the uh argument by uh inference
6:08and uh and you are correct that they
6:11tested the
6:11seminal fluid on the body versus me and
6:14found it didn't match me but that's as
6:15far as the
6:16that's as far as the testing went and
6:19then later
6:20on as well unfold uh in the
6:22post-conviction process
6:24i was blocked several times from having
6:27that dna
6:28put into the dna data bank once it had
6:30been created
6:31so yeah so so far you're batting a
6:33thousand
6:35oh my goodness now i just want to get
6:37this out there because
6:39you know people will go and read up on
6:40this later on and stuff
6:42you did confess at first to this crime
6:46i did yes i was coerced into that but
6:48yes
6:49right and we find that a lot especially
6:51with young people
6:53and you know if if we take the moment to
6:56read into some court case because i love
6:57this kind of stuff so i do read into it
7:00we rarely find um we we find a lot of
7:03similarities between your case and
7:05a lot of younger people being coerced
7:08into admit
7:09something they didn't do and you know a
7:12lot of psychology
7:13and and psychologists will say like the
7:15vulnerability of the brain
7:17and and the lack of experience and
7:21fear in somebody younger is quite it's a
7:24lot easier to coerce
7:25a young person into a confession i'll
7:28agree 100
7:29i just want to add for context that
7:31coerced false confessions have caused
7:33wrongful convictions in 25 of the dna
7:36proven wrongful convictions
7:37and you correctly point out that while
7:39this has happened to adults that
7:41particularly vulnerable populations are
7:43youth and people with mental health
7:45issues
7:46and i also read also with um people with
7:50lack of funding like
7:51poor people you know they are
7:55typically as well coerced into false
7:57confessions
7:59i don't right well i mean your inability
8:00to you know yeah i mean
8:02that ties into you know your ability to
8:03retain an attorney and then also
8:06you know the quality of representation
8:07that you get at the trial
8:09at which you're going to be challenging
8:10the confession i mean certainly if you
8:12have a paid lawyer
8:14that you know theoretically they're
8:15going to mount a much more
8:17aggressive defense i mean just for
8:19context and this is good we're going to
8:20need this info later
8:22uh normally when you defend the case uh
8:25which is a false
8:26confession you have to answer that
8:27confession you have to explain that
8:29confession
8:31uh you know you have to disprove that
8:32confession and bring it all together
8:35in your closing argument but you know my
8:38attorney didn't didn't do
8:40any of that uh in addition you know he
8:43sometimes he was kind of all over the
8:45place he sometimes he argued the
8:46confession never happened
8:48other times he argued well it happened
8:50but it was coerced that still other
8:51times he was arguing
8:53that it happened but it was false so
8:55you're already
8:56in a difficult spot just defending a
8:58case where there is a confession just
9:00just for to begin with there's a 80
9:02conviction rate but
9:04then when you're not going to allow your
9:05client to testify and you're gonna just
9:07throw
9:08all these different theories against the
9:10wall and hope that something sticks
9:12you know it's in a way it's not that
9:13surprising that i was uh wrongfully
9:15convicted
9:16exactly and and another thing is tape
9:19recordings
9:20they were all over and in all of these
9:22transcripts that i'm reading
9:24they talked about these transcripts the
9:26tape or the tapings the tape recordings
9:28were shut
9:29off and on multiple times with a huge
9:32space like
9:34and when you confessed
9:38everything prior to that was not on tape
9:41for a meaningful time time period they
9:43shut off those tapes
9:45multiple times there is no evidence of
9:48what
9:49how they coerced you but anybody
9:51especially like in a court system like a
9:53young man a young
9:55you weren't even a man you were a young
9:56boy
9:58no evidence the tapes are shut off
10:02at all of these like convincingly you
10:05know convincing
10:05areas why did you know these were being
10:09shut off at such a young age
10:11well i i did not used to clarify
10:13something so
10:14there was i had uh so there was like a
10:16six week
10:17run up to the coerced boss confession
10:20so i had a lot of interaction with the
10:22police and the
10:24the dynamic there would be first they
10:27would talk to me like a suspect
10:29and when they would push too hard and
10:31i'd become frightened and i'd want to
10:32get away from them
10:33that's when they would switch it up and
10:36jeff is this junior detective helper was
10:38the game that they were playing
10:40oh the kids won't talk freely around us
10:42they will around you
10:44let us know if you hear anything uh stop
10:46in from time to time
10:48they'd ask me opinion questions and
10:49congratulate me that my opinion was
10:52uh correct they did the good cop bad cop
10:54routine so i began to look up to the
10:56officer who was pretending to be my
10:58friend
10:59as a father figure which i was
11:01particularly vulnerable to because my
11:02own father had never been in my life in
11:04any aspect and
11:06prior to being a teenager i wanted to be
11:08a cop when i grew up
11:10so it was all during that six week run
11:12up to it that you correctly point out
11:14that you know the audio tape was uh
11:17being started and then stopped and i was
11:20not always aware
11:21of them doing that i was aware that they
11:24did it once but not
11:25after that but in terms of the day of
11:28the course
11:29confession none of that was audio tape
11:31not not not even a second uh
11:33of it you know there was no uh audio
11:35check there's no videotape there's no
11:38sign
11:38confession it's just the cops word for
11:40it and when they came
11:42to court they were able to leave the
11:43threat and false promise out
11:45so maybe this would be a good point just
11:47to take a brief minute or two
11:48just to provide some context so in terms
11:50of the day the course
11:52falls confession so first of all after
11:54that six weeks run up
11:56they got me to agree to take a polygraph
11:59by telling me that there was some new
12:01information that had come into the
12:02police file and they wanted to share
12:04that with me
12:05but i would first have to take and pass
12:07a polygraph
12:09so the next day rather than go to high
12:11school i went to the police station for
12:13this test
12:15my mother and grandmother whom i lived
12:17thought that i was in school because it
12:18was a school day
12:20they drove me from peak skill which is
12:21in westchester county new york they
12:23drove me
12:24across county lines 40 minutes away by
12:26car to the town of brewster in putnam
12:28county
12:29so now it means that i'm not able to
12:31leave on my own anymore i'm totally
12:33dependent on the police
12:35they even continue the psychological
12:38overreaching of me even in the car ride
12:40they
12:40they had me ride in the car by myself
12:43with the cop who was pretending to be my
12:45friend with the other two in
12:46in a different vehicle uh when i uh
12:50got there to the uh polygraph location
12:53it was in a private office it was not in
12:55a police station
12:56the polygrapher was dressed like a
12:59civilian
13:00uh he uh never identified himself as a
13:02police officer he never read me my
13:04rights
13:05there was no attorney present i i wasn't
13:07given anything to eat the whole time i
13:09was there
13:10they gave me a four-page brochure which
13:12explained how the polygraph worked
13:15uh but i had a lot of big words in it
13:16which i didn't understand
13:18of course but then i figured well i'm
13:20here to help the police so what does it
13:21matter let's just
13:22get on with it and from there they put
13:25me in a small room and
13:27the polygraph is gave me countless cups
13:29of coffee
13:30uh in order to get me nervous then he
13:32wires me up to this
13:34machine and then he launches into his
13:36third degree tactic so he invaded my
13:38personal space
13:39he raised his voice at me he kept asking
13:42me the same questions over and over
13:43again
13:44and as each hour passes by my fear
13:46increases in proportion
13:48to the time and he kept that up for six
13:50and a half to seven
13:52uh hours which by the way is more than
13:55double the maximum amount of time that
13:57even
13:58as unscientific as the polygraph is and
14:00it's not scientific at all in fact
14:02intelligence officers are even
14:04trained on how to beat the polygraph but
14:06even being unscientific it still has its
14:09own
14:09best practices or you know how it's
14:12supposed to be done and
14:13by him having me on that thing for six
14:16and a half to seven hours that was more
14:17than double
14:18the the the three hours that the most is
14:21the most they could see
14:22having somebody on it and he also did
14:25not
14:26uh or did not video or audio record it
14:29which was another
14:30requirement for that method of
14:31conducting the polygraph because there's
14:33such a high correlation
14:35between usage of the polygraph and
14:37coerced false confessions
14:39so he does that for six and a half to
14:40seven hours and towards the end he said
14:43what do you mean you didn't do it you
14:44just told me through the test result
14:46that you did
14:46we just want you to verbally confirm it
14:49and that really shot my fear to the roof
14:51and at that point it was the officer had
14:53been pretending to be my friend
14:54he came in the room and told me that the
14:56other officers were going to harm me but
14:58that he'd been holding them off but i
14:59can't do so
15:01indefinitely that i had to help myself
15:04then he added
15:04just you know say what just tell them
15:06what they want to hear and go home
15:08afterwards
15:09you're not going to be arrested being
15:11young naive
15:12frightened 16 years old not thinking
15:14about the long term
15:15just being concerned with my safety in
15:17the moment
15:18i was in fear of my life the fact that i
15:20didn't know where i was
15:22or where when no one else knew where i
15:24was either loomed quite large in my mind
15:26i was overwhelmed emotionally and
15:28psychologically
15:29and the possibility of harm and this
15:31false promise
15:32so the end result was i made up a story
15:34based on the information that they had
15:36given me
15:37by the time it was all said and done i
15:39collapsed on the floor into a fetal
15:40position and uh
15:41crying uncontrollably and obviously i
15:44was arrested
15:46at that point and they finally gave me
15:48something to eat after
15:49after going out there without eating
15:51anything
15:53that's incredible of course you were
15:54fearful of your life they were even
15:56the good cop was even telling you that i
15:59can't hold them back any longer and they
16:00want to do you harm like
16:03that's in the back of your mind too
16:04right absolutely yes it was
16:07that's incredible it was and i just
16:08wanted to get out of that i was
16:10desperate and by him throwing me that
16:11false promise i mean i
16:13i latched onto that it was down to that
16:15you know and
16:16that was a lie except i didn't realize
16:19that at the time
16:20i mean for somebody who's lived a life
16:23like a 40 year old 50 year old doesn't
16:25even matter for somebody who's lived
16:26life you know you might be able to hold
16:29out for a little bit longer but a 16
16:30year old boy
16:32okay for hours upon hours
16:35inside this room with people raising
16:37their voice threatening them
16:39good we couldn't even handle it now at
16:42our age
16:43let alone but that's not it that's not
16:46all jeffrey there was a ton of stuff
16:47like
16:48the courthouse cleaning crew like they
16:50inadvertently threw away many of the
16:52um of the much of the evidence right
16:55like
16:55yes yeah yeah let me explain that that's
16:58a wonderful point that you made
17:00uh so the victim's clothes including her
17:03bra had been admitted into
17:05evidence and the jury has to see the bra
17:08and that was important because one of
17:10the in one of the statements that they
17:11coerced out of me i
17:12said that i ripped her bra off which
17:14there's some bras that cannot be
17:16ripped off and so when the jury asked to
17:20see the bra that's when the judge said
17:22well the clothes uh including the bra
17:25had been left in the courtroom over the
17:27weekend and the janitors
17:29apparently thought it was trash and so
17:31it was thrown out
17:32oh my gosh and he substituted he refused
17:36to declare a mistrial
17:37and he substituted the bra which is no
17:41longer available with a photograph
17:43which he he the judge himself said
17:46uh quote unquote you can almost see the
17:49bra
17:49in it oh no
17:53wow that's incredible and you know all
17:56of these errors that the police and
17:58the prosecution and even your own lawyer
18:01not
18:02right sure all contributed to your
18:05conviction
18:05because 100
18:09let me just put a little bit more color
18:10to that and get into a few more of the
18:12specifics
18:12of that so in terms of the prosecutorial
18:15misconduct so
18:16one day before officially getting the
18:18dna test results
18:20back he rushed to the grand jury to
18:22indict me so that
18:23he didn't have to present that to the to
18:25the grand jury
18:27he the medic the medical ex once the dna
18:30didn't match me
18:31the medical examiner suddenly claimed
18:34that
18:35he just that he remembered that he
18:37forgot to document
18:38medical evidence that he said showed the
18:40victim had been promiscuous
18:42which is what opened the door for the
18:44prosecutor to argue
18:46that there must have been yet another
18:49person
18:49that she slept with prior to my
18:52murdering and raping her
18:53and taking it a step further he
18:56mentioned another youth by name that he
18:58claimed it had this encounter with the
19:00victim
19:00but much like the hair he again resorted
19:03to arguing by inference
19:05rather than by evidence he never
19:08got the dna sample from this other youth
19:11he never even called him as a witness he
19:13just made the unsupported argument to
19:14the jury
19:15and he got away with that because
19:18my my uh first of all my attorney should
19:21have my attorney was conflicted
19:22meaning that this other youth that the
19:24prosecutor was falsely saying had slept
19:26with the victim
19:28uh was rep was another member of that
19:30same public defender's office and
19:31specifically by the lawyer who was
19:33supposed to be supervising him on my
19:35case
19:36so that conflict prevented the defense
19:38from asking
19:39him for a dna sampler prevented the
19:41defense from calling him
19:43as a witness and another aspect of that
19:47was that the victim's family was not
19:49coming to court
19:50so they had no idea that her reputation
19:53was being trashed like that she wasn't
19:55promiscuous at all and in fact and they
19:58they knew that
19:59and the reason why i know that they knew
20:00that is because
20:02when the dna did not match me the police
20:06went back
20:07out into the field and they interviewed
20:0917 witnesses who
20:11knew the victim in one capacity or
20:13another and all of them told the police
20:15that there was no boyfriend there was no
20:17consensual sex
20:19but the police purposely did not
20:21document any of those witness
20:22interviews and as a result of that none
20:25of that was
20:26turned over uh to my attorney
20:30now speaking of my attorney in terms of
20:32his deficiencies
20:35rarely met with me whenever he would
20:36meet with me he was always shutting me
20:38up one time he told me he didn't care if
20:40i was guilty or innocent
20:42which is a hell of a thing to say uh
20:45then
20:46he never he literally never asked that
20:48medical examiner a single question
20:51never explained to the jury the
20:53significance of the dna not matching me
20:55never used that to challenge the uh the
20:58confession to argue it was coerced and
21:00false
21:01i mentioned about the conflict and
21:03lastly you know my attorney would not
21:05allow me to testify
21:07and then he was all over the place like
21:08i said before in terms of terms of
21:10his various arguments to the jury and so
21:13that along with all the other errors we
21:15talked
21:16about uh you know led to the wrongful
21:18conviction
21:20uh you know i just remember go ahead i'm
21:22sorry go ahead go i just remembered one
21:23more thing
21:24so not being content with having coerced
21:27the false confession out of me they also
21:29falsely attributed a statement to me
21:32what i mean by that
21:33is once the dna didn't match me
21:37suddenly the the police claimed that i
21:40said to them
21:41that i didn't know whether or not the
21:45uh what whether the perpetrator
21:47ejaculated or not
21:49and that word was not in my vocabulary
21:51as a 16 year old
21:53and when you look at their police
21:54reports
21:56that only appears in their police
21:58reports after the dna
22:00doesn't match me that did not appear in
22:02their reports
22:03prior to that so add it all
22:07up that was how i was wrongfully
22:09convicted
22:11yeah and as a 15 year old or 16 year old
22:1316 16 year old yeah
22:14as a 16 year old you know they're not
22:18your your attorney's going everywhere
22:20and he's not asking you he's shutting
22:22you up
22:24like i don't know if this is factual but
22:26it would appear to me
22:27that in those circumstances they
22:30wouldn't care anyway like you wouldn't
22:31have had a say even if you went up on
22:33stage on the stand
22:35which they did not allow you like you
22:37wouldn't really have had a said a say
22:39after all
22:40of this you know you couldn't go to your
22:42lawyer hey
22:43do this do that do this you're 16 years
22:45old yeah i
22:46clearly was in over my clearly in over
22:48my head never been arrested before
22:50i didn't fully understand what was going
22:53on and that was a situation
22:55that my attorney made worse because
22:58he would not allow my mother or any
23:00other adult
23:01to be in any of the conversations with
23:04him
23:04and i you know just yes for any of the
23:07strategic decisions such as
23:10whether to take the stand you know which
23:12i wanted to he wouldn't let me but then
23:13he gave me his rationale he said oh it's
23:15not up to me to prove you're innocent
23:17they gotta
23:18prove you're guilty but that's still a
23:20choice to make it's you still
23:22you know he's still taking a risk what
23:24you know both ways
23:25he would he wouldn't allow me to have
23:27the judgment of a mature adult
23:28in that conversation just like he would
23:31not allow me to have the
23:33input of a mature adult on the issue of
23:36whether to have a bench trial or a jury
23:40trial
23:41would you have known the difference back
23:43then um
23:45or if he explained it to me i might have
23:47but again that's where
23:49having an adult with me to further
23:50elaborate and
23:52and maybe the adult would have
23:54understood the implications
23:55more i probably i might have been able
23:57to get like a basic understanding but
23:59an adult would have understood the
24:01far-reaching implications assuming that
24:03he explained it to them correct
24:05but you know but you know he didn't he
24:08didn't allow that and
24:09speaking of that decision by the way i
24:11just remembered something which was
24:14when that decision was still up in the
24:16air even with my not being allowed to
24:18consult with an adult
24:19he came to my lawyer came to me one day
24:22and he told me
24:23that the judge came to him off the
24:25record and told him
24:27to pick a jury because he didn't want to
24:30be responsible for finding me not guilty
24:33wow so that wasn't proper for the judge
24:36to limit my decision that way
24:38and my lawyer was supposed to put that
24:40on the record and ask the judge to
24:42recuse himself because you know that
24:43sounds like this
24:45judge is letting the public pressure get
24:46to him and keeping in mind the context
24:49in which that i every time i
24:52made a court appearance it was this
24:54major media moment with
24:56virtually all the coverage from a guilt
24:57presumptive oriented perspective
25:00that's right that's right and there must
25:02have been a lot
25:03that oh my goodness i can't even imagine
25:05that as well the media
25:06the people with their cameras in your
25:08face you know at 16 years old
25:11i'm sure they're yelling i mean i watch
25:12movies so i'm sure it's not like that
25:14but they're yelling at you people
25:16it would have been terrifying it was
25:18very scary it was very scary to me so
25:20at that point i was 17 because i i
25:22turned 17 was before the trial
25:24it was still very very scary you know uh
25:27with with the media there and that
25:29you're seeing my own my name
25:30in newspapers you know for something you
25:34know
25:34like this you know being on the cover of
25:36newspapers
25:37you know it was uh it was a very very
25:39frightening out of control
25:41type of feeling and
25:44so and i read some information to
25:46jeffrey that new york
25:47is the third most dna exonerated
25:50state yes correct so
25:54what that tells me is if it's the third
25:57most
25:58exonerated state with from dna
26:03that means that that means it's the
26:04third the third so that that's another
26:07way of saying that
26:08you know at least as amongst the
26:10exonerated cases that
26:12new york wrongfully convicts uh fairly
26:14frequently
26:15fairly frequently and
26:18is it because you know people got to get
26:20voted into office so they have to close
26:22cases quickly you know there's
26:24there's a lot of speculation of why that
26:26can be well there's a multitude of
26:28reasons i mean what you just said is one
26:30reason i don't i don't think that that's
26:31the only reason
26:32or the rules in every instance but
26:34that's certainly an aspect of it
26:36uh another aspect would be uh tunnel
26:39vision
26:40which is when they when a conclusion is
26:42formed then working backwards and only
26:44trying to confirm that and
26:46ignoring evidence to the contrary or
26:48trying to explain it
26:49away in a in a way that just kind of
26:52defies
26:53uh logic and common sense such as the
26:55dna not matching me then we're going to
26:56go to a consensual sex theory
26:58and and promiscuity but the victim is
27:01leading a sheltered life and has no
27:03boyfriend but we're going to ignore that
27:05there has to be a way that
27:06just convicted this crime even though
27:09dna says it was not
27:11so tunnel vision but other things uh
27:14coerced false confessions you know we
27:16mentioned that at 25
27:18uh misidentification at 75 percent of
27:21the unapproved wrongful convictions
27:23lying informants at 15 bad lawyering
27:26which was certainly uh
27:28a factor in in in my case is uh
27:31prosecutorial misconduct is a
27:34factor that runs through nearly all
27:37of the wrongful convictions as an
27:38additional factor to the other things
27:40we've talked about
27:41uh forensic fraud which certainly was
27:44present in my case uh through the
27:47medical examiner and by the way we did
27:50find
27:50during the during the lawsuit process
27:53after i was exonerated that this medical
27:56examiner
27:57had altered his findings in three other
28:00cases
28:01in order to benefit the prosecution
28:03theory and in each one of those
28:05instances
28:06the prosecutor was the prosecutor in my
28:09case
28:09so they were used to tag teaming like
28:12that in an illegal fashion
28:14oh my gosh now i i don't know if you can
28:17answer this or not but those other three
28:18cases that you know of that you just
28:20mentioned
28:21um were they exonerated
28:24no they they have not been exonerated
28:26i'm not i'm not really clear whether
28:28those were
28:28right
28:31certainly at a minimum certainly at a
28:33minimum it's uh
28:35you could definitely say that none of
28:37them got
28:38a fair trial and actually one of the
28:40cases that i'm cold counsel on now which
28:43we'll maybe we'll get to a little bit
28:44later
28:45uh this medical examiner is present in
28:47that case
28:48and he altered his time of death and
28:51that had the impact of
28:53cancelling out the defendant's uh alibi
28:56oh my gosh yeah let's i want to get into
28:59a little bit of
28:59of a few different things here so and i
29:02know for
29:03lack of time i'm i don't want to feel
29:05like i'm rushing you but i
29:06i just want to know so much go ahead
29:08listen ask everything you want and uh if
29:11need be we could always do a part two
29:13i'm willing it's certainly up to you but
29:15i i
29:15i it's on the table on my end of it i
29:17would be willing to
29:19oh thank you so much for that one thing
29:21i want you to explain to my viewers and
29:23my listeners
29:24in case some of them don't know the
29:25difference because i didn't know the
29:26difference at one time
29:28the difference between being freed and
29:30exonerated
29:32so being exonerated is that the court
29:34recognized that you were innocent or you
29:36received a pardon from the governor
29:38on innocence grounds whereas being freed
29:42you might be freed because you got
29:44paroled
29:45or they have a lot of states have what's
29:47called a
29:48conditional release meaning that there's
29:50a time period where they
29:52unless you've done something to lose
29:54good time like say in the 5 to 15 like
29:56the mid
29:56that you know the the middle point would
29:58be about 10 years so that would be your
30:00conditional release so you could be
30:02out that way or you might have gotten
30:04out because the
30:05governor's office gave you a commutation
30:08i'll give you what's called clemency
30:09which means all right well we yeah you
30:12know there's some redeeming value in you
30:14you know and that we we think that
30:16merits you're doing less time than what
30:18you were sentenced to where
30:19sense could be modified through
30:21commutation or you might have been
30:22released
30:23uh because you maxed out you finished
30:25all the time either five to fifteen you
30:27somehow
30:28managed to do all 15 years and so you
30:31maxed out
30:32or you might even be released uh at a
30:34compassionate release whereby
30:36uh by coincidence you know your health
30:38has just deteriorated to a point where
30:41the president medical officials have
30:43determined that you're terminally ill
30:45and so you've applied to be released to
30:47compassionate relief so that you can
30:49die with a little bit of dignity with
30:50your friends and family in in
30:53the normal environment so you could have
30:55been out on any of those
30:57uh any of those ways but not exonerated
31:00or maybe your conviction was even
31:02overturned
31:03but rather than you being exonerated or
31:06going to trial and winning
31:08they offered you a plea bargain and you
31:10know just plead guilty to this and will
31:12release you right away
31:14and so you could be out that way but not
31:16exonerated
31:18right exonerated you were found innocent
31:21of a crime
31:22correct not commit but you were
31:24convicted of or charged of yeah
31:27that's incredible and you had made a
31:30comment
31:31and it's a quote that i took from you
31:34and
31:35i don't remember where it was forgive me
31:37but i it is a quote from you
31:39yeah and it says i don't get angry at
31:41what happened to me
31:42because if i did that would be like
31:45giving them the rest of my life
31:47and they already took enough from me
31:50instead
31:51i take that energy that i otherwise
31:52would feel
31:54and that drives me in my quest in my
31:56life-long struggle against
31:58wrongful convictions when i first read
32:01that quote from you jeffrey i actually
32:05i actually teared up because in my head
32:09i was thinking
32:10how angry you must be
32:13because some of the most important years
32:17of a human being's life you have
32:21your young teenage your young adult and
32:23your adult life like
32:25yes there are some who spend many many
32:28more years but
32:30you spent very very like where you're
32:34learning everything and everything
32:35changes in society i was thinking to
32:38myself
32:39those words are so humbling i didn't get
32:42angry because if i did
32:45i'd be giving them the rest of my life
32:47and they already took enough
32:49that does not come easily for most
32:52people to get to that
32:53place how did you get there well my
32:56first week home i was angry and
32:59at the end of the week i mean i felt
33:01like it was destroying me and
33:03and you know and i figured well you know
33:05i want to enjoy my life as much as i can
33:07i can't do that if i'm angry or bitter
33:10if i was to be angry it's not like i'm
33:14impacting the people who were
33:15responsible and and you know the other
33:18line of reasoning also which which you
33:20quoted also you know
33:21went through my mind as well so that was
33:24kind of how i got this so
33:26maybe a month before i
33:29was uh released uh whereby my conviction
33:32was overturned and then i
33:34wound up going back to court and where i
33:36was exonerated they dismissed everything
33:38on actual innocence grounds but a month
33:40before the conviction was overturned
33:42i saw on the television that there was
33:45another prisoner named alan newton who
33:47had been exonerated through dna
33:49testing and in his press conference he
33:52said that he was not angry
33:53and at the time i thought that was like
33:55the silliest thing ever
33:57and you know but after that first week
34:00of being home and being angry and
34:01nearly destroying me you know i
34:04remembered that i hearkened back to that
34:06and
34:06hence my coming up with those multiple
34:09line of reasonings
34:10all in that same uh direction
34:13yeah and i want to get into in a few
34:16seconds in a few minutes as well that
34:17whole thing how you were exonerated
34:19what happened leading up to that but
34:23something that we don't know because we
34:26can only know what we read
34:28about your case sure so what we don't
34:30know and
34:31again i struggled with what to ask
34:34because i don't want to
34:36like my ignorance and all of that could
34:38just
34:39no feel free to ask whatever you like if
34:41you're afraid to ask whatever you like
34:42i'm very transparent and you know if you
34:44do ask me something that i haven't
34:46gotten
34:49i appreciate that so look feel free to
34:51ask whatever you want okay
34:53well 15 16 years old 17 by the time you
34:56were you went into prison
34:57um so first of all did they put you in
35:00an adult prison at 17
35:02they did they put you right in with
35:05maximum security people like people who
35:07have done atrocious things in life
35:09yes because i had been charged as an
35:11adult tried as an adult sentence as an
35:13adult and therefore it followed that i
35:15would be sent to an adult
35:16maximum security prison yes and how okay
35:20how terrifying was that when you you go
35:21through that
35:23you know yeah actually how are you
35:24device you do they still do that stuff
35:26they still do that stuff yes back then
35:28delights you shower you check you do all
35:30of those
35:32very personal things to your body um
35:35give you your clothes and whatever it is
35:36you're going to be needing
35:38like how terrified was it
35:41walk us through that just for like just
35:43for a couple of moments of your of your
35:45memory
35:46yeah well it was it was terrifying i
35:48mean they gathered all of us together in
35:50this one
35:50uh in this one area and you know they
35:53they ordered us to take all of our
35:54clothes off so they could do the
35:56good do the the de-licing and so that
35:58was an unusual thing
36:00uh for me as well just to be naked in
36:03front of all these other uh
36:04you know men and then the the lysing i
36:07mean i remembered that smell stayed in
36:09my head
36:10for months i couldn't get it out even
36:12though i was
36:13you know showering and using shampoo
36:16so that all of that all that was
36:18frightening and even just the fact of uh
36:21you know how medicine the barbed wire
36:23appeared how large the prison wall
36:25loomed
36:26and uh the idea of being in prison were
36:29the ceos were in charge so in the county
36:32jail i was kept in the
36:33mental health wing of the of the prison
36:36where they were correction officers but
36:37they
36:38really weren't in charge the civilian
36:40mental health staff were in charge and
36:42the
36:43guards had a secondary role just in
36:45terms of security but
36:46you know it was a minimal amount of
36:48interaction whereas in a prison the
36:50correction officers are all
36:52in in charge and you know that in and of
36:55itself was kind of a frightening
36:56prospect and then
36:58being in uh you know not being used to
37:01being in the prison
37:02walls i mean i felt claustrophobic there
37:05and
37:05in that reception center downstate
37:07correctional facility which is uh when i
37:09say reception that's the first state
37:11facility that you're
37:12sent to that i was sent to prior to
37:15going to a different prison and that's
37:16where they issue the supplies they
37:18delicious
37:19you know they do they do uh medical and
37:21mental health observation and then they
37:24try to uh an assessment and they try to
37:25determine what facility you're going to
37:27be sent to
37:28originally so in that particular prison
37:32they had what was called a live count
37:34meaning that
37:35five times a day they would come around
37:38and you would have to be fully dressed
37:40standing up at the door with your lights
37:43on
37:43so you really it made it very difficult
37:46even just to sleep right you know
37:49because you could never really relax
37:51there because you if you're sleeping
37:52when they come around
37:54you you could get in a lot of trouble
37:55for doing that wow and
37:57and the other prisoners the men that
37:59were there with you
38:00did you did you have anybody that took
38:02you under their wing
38:04did you i mean you were there for 16
38:06years so
38:07maybe younger ones came in after you
38:09that you took under your wing how did
38:11that all right so both of those
38:12yeah that wouldn't be fair to say so
38:13that both of those things
38:15both of those things uh happen at
38:17various times and
38:18in various uh various ways i mean
38:21sometimes the people that
38:22took me under their wing it was that
38:25they gave me some advice here
38:26and there it's not like they were my
38:28protector 24 hours a day it wasn't
38:30on that level i mean that happened
38:32sometimes that never ever actually
38:34happened um for me
38:35but uh but people did you know educate
38:38me they kind of schooled me on you know
38:39various prison survival
38:41you know tactics things like we know
38:43when you're in your cell don't don't
38:44talk out of yourself some people do that
38:47but you know you
38:48you never know who you're talking to or
38:50someone might jump into the conversation
38:52and don't ask anybody for anything don't
38:54let anybody
38:55take anything you know from you don't
38:57don't try to be don't try to be popular
38:59or over overly familiar and
39:01you know don't don't get you know you
39:03don't want to gamble or get involved
39:04into
39:05uh borrowing something for somebody or
39:08get into a discussion about what's going
39:10to be watched on the television or not
39:13right you know and even trying to
39:16identify
39:17you know which people around you or in
39:19what gangs and steering clear of them
39:21because
39:22you know if you're hanging out with
39:24somebody that could
39:25draw you into something that you don't
39:27want to be involved in
39:29that's right wow there's a lot to know
39:32there's a lot to know did you take a lot
39:34of time to just observe
39:36and just did yeah because i did even
39:39when there was somebody
39:41new in one or if i moved to one gallery
39:43or some one different cell block or
39:45another which is kind of like moving
39:46from one city to the
39:48nexus for um listeners you know uh
39:52you know i would study my environment
39:53for several months before
39:55you know studying an individual for
39:56several months even before i even just
39:58said hello or said anything to them
40:00yeah but did you develop friendships as
40:03best you can yeah as
40:05best i could i mean uh i mean i looked
40:07at it more as activity partners but yeah
40:09i mean there's a general
40:10rule in prison you don't have any
40:11friends in prison that's a general rule
40:13i broke that rule a few times but
40:15but more than that you more have like
40:17activity partners but there's a whole
40:19set of people that
40:20i used to play basketball with it was a
40:23different set of people that i would
40:25play spades with a different set of
40:26people i'd play chess with
40:28and another sort of people that i would
40:30play ping-pong and still another set of
40:32people that
40:33were sports affectionately so we might
40:36you know watch sports on television or
40:38you know talk sports a little bit
40:40right and did what about um fightings
40:43did you get it in
40:44any fights or yeah yes i i did maybe
40:47like maybe like six or seven times i you
40:49know i got
40:50i peed up i was you know because i was i
40:52was a young kid in a
40:53present it was you know i mean i got
40:55into my mid twenties i mean i developed
40:57that i
40:58got a little stronger i got a little
40:59wiser and here and there i would
41:01come up with a victory at you but in
41:03general i'm not a fighter
41:05i'm not a fighter that's not who i am
41:06i'm not going to portray that so
41:08you know more often than not i i lost
41:10but i always did the best that i could
41:12yeah and what about visitors jeffrey did
41:14your mom because you said your mom and
41:15grandmother right
41:17yeah so yes i did so my my mother used
41:20to come
41:21a couple of times you know once or twice
41:23a month but that was uh
41:24my grandmother would accompany her but
41:26that that was initially uh
41:28so grandma actually passed away uh after
41:32uh five years five or six years while i
41:34was in prison
41:35so obviously that meant that she wasn't
41:36coming anymore uh the
41:38last five or six years uh my mother came
41:41like once every
41:42six months if i was lucky i had several
41:45sets of aunts and uncles that would
41:48you know visit disappear for three years
41:50visit disappear for three years
41:52uh my brother who was three and a half
41:54years younger than me
41:57came three maybe three times in 16 years
41:59not at all in the last decade
42:02i had two friends that came to visit me
42:04one person
42:05came one time and that was it never saw
42:07him again
42:09and i had another friend that stayed in
42:11touch with me that
42:13it would come up periodically but that
42:16was
42:16for five years and then that then he
42:18went into the military and we lost touch
42:20so
42:21uh based on all of that uh if i was to
42:23summarize i would say
42:25that while not literally uh in many
42:29ways uh i essentially did the time by
42:31myself
42:34now that's pretty lonely but yeah let me
42:37ask you were you able to
42:38forgive because i'm pretty sure you're
42:41probably a little bit angry at first
42:42right i
42:43i certainly was i was angry at first
42:46yeah and i
42:47really wasn't even really aware that i
42:49was it only kind of
42:50came out as i would meet up with them in
42:53person
42:54after after i was exonerated came out
42:57so i didn't yeah so that's how that but
43:00you know one um
43:00going back to the friend question there
43:02was a there was definitely a friendship
43:04that i did make while i was in prison
43:06that was uh
43:07with a prisoner named frank sterling and
43:10uh
43:10once uh frank was also innocent and so
43:13once every six weeks we would get
43:15together and
43:16try to keep each other going morale wise
43:19and we would also brainstorm about what
43:21the
43:22next move was to make to try to overturn
43:25the conviction and
43:26regain our freedom and you know frank
43:28was ultimately exonerated through dna
43:30testing um
43:31after 18 years in prison so a couple
43:33years after
43:34me uh and lastly
43:37yeah definitely it really uh it
43:40was kind of unknown it's kind of unusual
43:42in a way
43:44but the last thing i'll say is uh last
43:46couple years just desperate for outside
43:48contact because of the lack of visitors
43:51i did
43:51place an ad in a small newspaper um
43:55actually in california in sacramento b
43:57and
43:58i was looking for a pen pals just
44:00desperate for contact with the outside
44:02but
44:02i also had the ulterior motive i was
44:04hoping that at some point
44:06they would ask me well what are you
44:07doing in there by the way
44:09and that would be my chance to explain i
44:11was innocent and
44:12you know maybe they would believe me and
44:15they could help build a bridge between
44:17me
44:17and the necessary legal uh help that i
44:20needed to be exonerated i mean i had
44:21read that that had happened in
44:23a number and other uh wrongful
44:25conviction cases so i was trying to do
44:27the same thing
44:29and uh so there was somebody who who
44:32wrote me uh his name was um scott kiley
44:34and
44:34we used to we i was openly asking the
44:37stranger
44:38that i didn't know from anywhere and i
44:41was openly asking him
44:42uh in the last couple years look should
44:44i just quit should i give up
44:46should i just kill myself and be done
44:48with this i'm never going to get out of
44:49here
44:50and you know so he kind of showed up
44:53at the right moment right at the end
44:55just as i was
44:57about at the end of my rope
45:01wow that's amazing
45:04and i mean we do hear stories of
45:08you know pen pals and you know women who
45:11really love to fall in love with men in
45:13i was never so lucky with that i did
45:16fantasize about that i did fantasize
45:18about that for sure
45:20and there were you know in my own mind
45:22while i was in prison i mean um
45:24i kind of uh i kind of rotated schools
45:27of thought on that so
45:29uh there was one line of reasoning where
45:32you know i thought well
45:33you know i'm probably not going to find
45:36somebody of the caliber that i would
45:37want to be involved with i'm
45:39from on the outside and i can't really
45:41see stringing along somebody or using
45:43them
45:44and tying them up for however many years
45:46this lasts
45:47and then when i go home if i'm not you
45:49know if it's not up to par
45:51i'm not gonna just be miserable the rest
45:52of my life so i i don't have the heart
45:54to use people okay i don't
45:56i used to see it happening all the time
45:58but i didn't have the heart to do it so
46:01that was my main line of reasoning on
46:03that but listen don't get me wrong there
46:05were other times when
46:06other people were going on visits and
46:09getting
46:09you know they were making phone calls
46:11they were getting letter letters uh
46:13money was sent into them they were going
46:15on visits and they were
46:16getting food packages they even had
46:18conjugal visits in
46:20new york state so whereby uh you know if
46:22you're married uh you
46:24they could come up on a friday morning
46:25and they would be with you live with you
46:27on the
46:28there was trailers located on the prison
46:30grounds and they would be there until
46:32sunday morning so there were plenty of
46:34times where other people were doing
46:35those things and i felt like the biggest
46:37fool in the world
46:38with me in my line of reasoning so uh
46:40yeah at times i did
46:42think about it but and i did place uh
46:45you know i did place some ads and papers
46:47and they had websites at friends beyond
46:49the wall and other
46:51other made pen you know pen pals and all
46:54these different places and i
46:55i tried well i i tried putting ads and
46:58everything
46:59uh but nobody ever actually responded to
47:01me uh
47:02in in that in that way so i i i
47:05somebody another person actually uh i
47:07consulted with somebody once that had
47:09done that successfully like a number of
47:11times
47:13so i asked him well look here's my i'm
47:15not getting a response
47:17man what do you think here here's my ad
47:19you seem to you seem to know what you're
47:20doing you seem to have gotten this thing
47:22down
47:23you know this guy had like a whole huge
47:25big two
47:26several big uh uh see-through
47:29garbage bags full of letters from so
47:32many people it was
47:33ridiculous uh so yeah uh he didn't see
47:37anything wrong with the ad he came up
47:38with a theory which i think was right
47:41in which he said uh look i think that
47:44what's happening is these
47:45women are they're searching and
47:47determining what you're incarcerated for
47:50and they see that one of your charges is
47:52the rape right if it was just the murder
47:54you'd be good to go
47:55you know but uh yeah so because of that
47:58you know i think that that's why
47:59nobody's answering you
48:01you know so uh yeah so that uh that was
48:04my whole uh
48:05thing in terms of that yeah
48:08it would have been nice it would have
48:10been nice don't get me wrong
48:12uh at the same time though you know i
48:13have seen the other end of that so
48:16i know a bunch of exonerees now and even
48:19people on parole
48:21and they're caught in this ult this
48:24horrible dilemma because because
48:28they're with somebody now that in a way
48:30they feel a debt to
48:32because that person did hang out with
48:34them for like
48:35years on end they did help them and so
48:38they do appreciate that there is that
48:40loyalty aspect to it
48:42but on the other hand you know they're
48:45not really happy with that person that's
48:46not who's satisfying them and
48:48not enough of the different levels and
48:50so you know what do i
48:51what do i do now oh wow you know and so
48:54i i
48:55people have been caught in that in that
48:57dilemma and
48:58some some of the people uh you know
49:00through the conjugal visits they
49:02actually have children
49:03with them so that complicates things
49:05even more
49:06wow yes oh my gosh there's just so many
49:09facets to it isn't there
49:11yes there really is but i've no one's
49:14ever asked me about that
49:16before by the way so i kind of enjoyed
49:18sharing that aspect of my experience and
49:20the different lines of reasoning and
49:22all that stuff you know when people
49:24going on conjugal visits and i'm just
49:26sitting there myself for the afternoon
49:28on a saturday i felt like the biggest
49:30idiot in the world you know
49:31watching their trailer rock and when
49:33you're like yeah whatever
49:34[Laughter]
49:38right but uh i'm happy with how that
49:41turned out by the way i don't have to
49:42deal with that complication
49:44right so you don't have to have those
49:45regrets or those yeah exactly
49:48so okay let's go to because there's a
49:50few things i still want to get in and if
49:52we do it part two that's fine too
49:54sure i want to get into where you are
49:57today
49:58with your career which i i'm just so
50:01ecstatic about
50:02for you but i also want to get into now
50:06leading up to it okay so you had alluded
50:08to fact that you were losing hope
50:11yes you're at the end of your rope you
50:13know years are going by
50:15you don't have a lot of visitors from
50:17time to time but nothing to really
50:19touch that innate thing that we have
50:21exactly humans right connected
50:24yes yes so within this time like your
50:27lawyer did
50:28like a subpar i want to see terrible job
50:30because you ended up in prison
50:32did he come in did you have another
50:34lawyer like how did you
50:37fight for this like you started reading
50:38law books in there yeah yeah i got you i
50:40understand your question yeah so
50:42i started going to the law library so
50:44here's where somebody like pulled me
50:45aside and said look
50:47i have a paid lawyer you know i have one
50:49of the best lawyers of all time he
50:51actually had william the famous civil
50:52rights
50:53lawyer uh william consular um back when
50:55he was still alive
50:56he said look i have william cunsler as
50:59my lawyer
51:00and even i don't rely exclusively on him
51:02okay you have a public defender
51:04someone much less skillful so it's even
51:06more critical for you
51:08to go to the law library to learn the
51:10laws that you can give suggestions that
51:12you can keep up to date on
51:13what the latest decisions are that may
51:16have some implication for your case
51:19so i did start going to the law library
51:22and learning learning the law and that
51:24did give a sense of comfort and
51:26empowerment
51:27and right then i also started collecting
51:30articles about
51:31people who were exonerated and
51:34there was a number of reasons for that i
51:36mean it the main reason really was
51:38i wanted to see what route did they take
51:40and who actually helped them
51:42as another person to reach out to but i
51:45suppose an additional benefit to that
51:47was that it was uh inspirational you
51:50know it or
51:51you know would continue urged me to
51:53continue
51:54but but that became a double-edged sword
51:56too because i initially
51:58when i would read about that i would
52:00like imagine that what the scene might
52:02look like right outside
52:04the prison gate and the celebration so i
52:06kind of vicariously celebrate
52:08with them but at the same time many of
52:11those people were being exonerated by
52:13dna and so at some point my mind would
52:16shift
52:17and then i would start to feel
52:18frustrated because well what about me
52:20i'm innocent too the dna doesn't match
52:23me
52:24why should i be an exception right
52:27so that part of it was another thing but
52:30uh belief in god was one thing another
52:32thing
52:32was that in my mind i wasn't and i broke
52:35everything down to something manageable
52:37like
52:37in my mind i wasn't serving a 15 to life
52:40sentence
52:40i thought that i was just doing a year
52:42or two till the next appeal
52:44which i was sure i was going to win
52:46because i was innocent
52:47uh so there was that you want to ask a
52:49question on that sorry i just wanted i'm
52:51sorry for interrupting you but
52:53so you thought you were okay year so did
52:55was that here
52:56for the next appeal so every year that
52:58passed by or two for the next day every
53:00couple of years so
53:01for the next 11 years for the next 11
53:03years that got seven appeals got me
53:04through 11 years
53:05yes oh wow okay okay and another thing
53:09also uh was i engage i need i was
53:13desperate
53:14to get out of the prison for a couple of
53:15hours mentally so i
53:17engaged in this elaborate delusion when
53:19i would play basketball or chess or ping
53:21pong and i would pretend
53:23like i was a professional player and so
53:25are the other people
53:26but it wasn't really like kids fooling
53:28around on a playground someplace i mean
53:29this was more that
53:31this is defense mechanism and you know
53:33and then youth the role of euphemism so
53:35it's not
53:36the prison warden it's the
53:37superintendent right it's uh
53:39not the guards it's the correction
53:41officers and i'm not
53:43going to my prison assignment in the
53:45morning or in the afternoon i'm going
53:47to school or i'm going to work another
53:50thing
53:51was that when i listened to sports talk
53:53radio i mean it wasn't really sports
53:55talk radio that was a lifeline
53:57to the outside uh in 1998 they allowed
54:01us to purchase televisions for
54:03in-cell usage in elmira correctional
54:05facility and
54:06for the most part my tv stayed off
54:08because i was
54:09doing legal work and i was writing
54:11letters and the letter writing comes in
54:13because
54:14once your appeals are over the only way
54:16back into court
54:17is if you can find new evidence that
54:21probably would have led to a different
54:22outcome and so because i had no money to
54:24hire an attorney or an investigator
54:27hence the letter writing campaign so for
54:29those two reasons
54:30plus from 1998 to 2006 i read three or
54:34four non-fiction books a week
54:36so those are the things that i primarily
54:38did while i was in myself
54:40having said that when i purchased the
54:43television there were a few
54:45programs that i watched on a weekly
54:47basis
54:48and again i did another delusion so i
54:51would watch like a program and i would
54:53pretend like i was visiting with friends
54:56uh there was the pen pal i mentioned the
54:57other uh frank
54:59so all those were and the last thing i
55:01mentioned is that
55:02i collected i sometimes collected
55:06uh pictures of various nature scenes and
55:09there was a square
55:10box on one of the prison walls where per
55:13prison rules
55:14you were allowed to hang things up there
55:16and so
55:17i would use this awful toothpaste that
55:20the state made and provided you with
55:22i would use it as like a glue as an
55:24adhesive uh
55:25to uh tape up all these nature pictures
55:29and sometimes i would kind of travel
55:31there
55:32mentally so all those things were how i
55:34got through
55:36i had to keep fighting off feelings of
55:38hopelessness helplessness thoughts of
55:39giving up
55:40suicidal ideation you know it was it was
55:43as much a
55:44psychological and emotional battle as as
55:47it was actually in
55:48in the courts well i'm really thankful
55:51that you had that kind of imagination in
55:53that
55:54mindset because this is the devil's
55:57playground
55:58right and yes it's the only place he can
56:01get in
56:02to discourage us and so the fact that
56:05you were able to and i'm not i'm sure it
56:07didn't happen
56:08all the time for 16 years i'm sure there
56:10are times that you
56:11you know gave him a foothold in there
56:13but yeah of course the fact that you
56:15yeah the fact that you were able to put
56:17your mind in these different places i
56:19think that's amazing and that's
56:21really good technique for other people
56:24not just in prison but anywhere in life
56:26like put yourself somewhere
56:28you know it's going to get better it's
56:30going to get better and then it doesn't
56:31so what do you do
56:32right you have so many experiences that
56:34you can help so many people with that
56:36i'm just amazed at that mindset
56:38to carry you through but well another
56:41aspect of that though was that i knew
56:43that nobody that i already knew
56:46was coming to my rescue so i had to
56:49i knew i was going to have to try to you
56:51know find somebody else and
56:53and uh you know convert them into like a
56:55champion and then they connect me to the
56:57legal services that i needed and so in
56:59order to maximize my chances of that
57:02happening
57:03i had to hold it together i didn't have
57:04the luxury of
57:06losing my mind that concludes episode
57:09one
57:10with jeffrey deskovic what an amazing
57:13story
57:15we just heard how he got arrested why he
57:18got arrested
57:19what happened during those years now
57:22we're going to head into episode 2
57:25where we learn the process of what he
57:27went through
57:28to get exonerated through dna
57:32what he did after his release and where
57:34he is now
57:35there is so much more to go so join us
57:38for episode 2
57:39on this is your city with jeffrey
57:44[Music]
57:50descavent

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