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The Trolley Problem in Real Life — Transcript

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0:12[sneezes] Excuse me.
0:15You know, if I had been driving,
0:16that would've been pretty dangerous.
0:18Every time you sneeze,
0:19your eyes close for about one second,
0:21which means if you sneeze while driving at, say,
0:2470 miles per hour times 5,280 divided by 60 divided by 60,
0:28you will travel about 103 feet with your eyes closed.
0:34But don't worry.
0:36This is a self-driving car.
0:38It uses sensors and software to drive itself
0:40to keep me and other people safe.
0:43I hope.
0:44[tires screech]
0:46Impressive. But let me ask you a question.
0:49What if an autonomous vehicle had to make a choice
0:51between hitting two people right in front of it
0:53or swerving to avoid them
0:56and hit one person on a sidewalk?
0:58What should it be programmed to do?
1:00[tires screech, car crashes]
1:03What would you do?
1:04Now polls and surveys have been put together
1:06asking people what they think they would do,
1:08but no researchers have ever put people
1:10in that actual traumatic experience.
1:14Would we learn more about human nature if we did that?
1:17Would it even be ethical to put people in that sort of position?
1:20I'm about to find out.
1:22[theme music playing]
1:37In 1967, British philosopher Philippa Foot
1:41created a precursor to our self-driving car conundrum.
1:45The famous scenario she came up with
1:47is known as "the trolley problem."
1:49Imagine there's a runaway train hurtling down a train track.
1:52Directly ahead of the train,
1:54there are five people on the track.
1:57Now, imagine that you are too far away
1:59to help those five people, but right next to you,
2:02there's a lever that can divert the train onto another track.
2:07If you divert the train, the five people will be saved.
2:10But here's the catch.
2:12There's another person on the second track.
2:14Now you're faced with a dilemma.
2:17You can either do nothing
2:18and the train will kill five people,
2:20or you can pull the lever and save their lives,
2:24but be directly responsible for one person's death.
2:28What would you do?
2:30When surveyed, most people say that they'd pull the lever
2:33and sacrifice one person to save five.
2:36It's for the greater good.
2:38But how we say we'd act may not match
2:41how we'd actually act if the scenario really happened
2:45with real emotions and real lives at stake.
2:49Any difference between the two would reveal who we are
2:52compared to who we want to be, but a comparison
2:55could only be made by doing what has never been done before:
2:59making the trolley problem real.
3:13[Michael] Suppose we conducted an experiment
3:16in a realistic railroad switching station
3:18with test subjects watching trains on monitors.
3:21The trains and the people on the tracks
3:24would be staged and prerecorded,
3:27but the subjects would think it was all real.
3:29They would believe that they could control a lever
3:31that switches the tracks,
3:33and they'd have the option to divert the train or not.
3:36They'd be totally convinced that they have to choose
3:40between five lives or one.
3:42But wait, there's a greater-good dilemma
3:45about doing an experiment on the greater good.
3:48By forcing people to truly believe
3:51they might kill someone, are we risking
3:54serious psychological damage to them?
3:56Yes, it might be beneficial to all of us to see what happens,
4:00but would those benefits be worth potential trauma to a few?
4:06To actually conduct a real-life trolley problem,
4:09I needed to make sure it would be ethical.
4:12So I sat down with behavioral neuroscientist
4:15Professor Aaron Blaisdell.
4:17What you know about the trolley problem
4:19and what previous studies have found?
4:21Most people say they would pull the switch.
4:24Sure, it's one life versus five. The math works out.
4:27But what I want to know is that if we actually put them in front
4:30of a switch, watching a train barreling towards people,
4:33would they actually pull it in that moment?
4:36I bet a lot of them would freeze in that moment.
4:39When you're afraid,
4:41I think that shuts down a lot of action.
4:43-I'd like to find out. -Okay.
4:45What potential harms could come to someone in that position?
4:48Most people would probably be fine,
4:50but there is a small potential for harm
4:52in the sense of somebody being guilt-ridden
4:57over their decision, obsessive thoughts about,
5:00"I'm the person who would push that button
5:02and cause the train to go and kill somebody."
5:05Or they might think, "I'm the person who would freeze
5:08and I wouldn't be able to help those five people,"
5:10and that could be traumatic.
5:12Have we ever tested the trolley problem
5:15on human subjects for real?
5:18To my knowledge, we have not.
5:20Would you want to see the trolley problem
5:22enacted in real life?
5:24You know, I would.
5:26That would be very informative about how people really react.
5:29-If I were tell you we're going to run this... -Okay.
5:32...would you feel comfortable
5:34with that responsibility on your shoulders?
5:36No. I couldn't do it.
5:39For me to be involved in that,
5:41it would have to be on the shoulders of many people,
5:45including an ethics board.
5:46I couldn't just go through with that.
5:48[Michael] Dr. Blaisdell's reliance
5:49on an ethics board made sense.
5:52Most universities have ethics review boards
5:54to answer one crucial question:
5:57When is it okay to risk psychological harm
6:00in the name of science?
6:02[Narrator] It is May 1962.
6:04An experiment is being conducted at Yale University.
6:07[Michael] Ethics review boards were developed as a result
6:10of some controversial psychological experiments
6:12in the middle of the last century.
6:14One theory is that people learn things correctly
6:17whenever they get punished for making a mistake.
6:19-[buzzer] -Incorrect.
6:20You'll now get a shock of 105 volts.
6:22[man grunts]
6:24[Michael] Dr. Stanley Milgram
6:26tested how far subjects would go
6:28in obeying authority, even if they believed
6:30they were physically hurting someone.
6:32330 volts.
6:34[man screams]
6:36No one was being electrocuted, and the screams
6:39of the shock victim were fake, but the trauma
6:42that the participants suffered was very real.
6:45[man] You have no right to hold me here! Let me out!
6:47This sparked controversy
6:48within the scientific community.
6:50Many questioned Milgram's methodology,
6:52but unlike a research school, Mind Field doesn't answer
6:56to a university's ethics committee.
6:58That said, I wanted to get the thoughts
7:00of an institutional review board,
7:02so I tracked one down and proposed my idea
7:05for doing the trolley problem in real life.
7:08Do you think I could reach a point where you would
7:10feel comfortable approving this study?
7:13I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, Michael.
7:16Probably not.
7:18I'm not ready to say no quite yet.
7:21I would love to see your study pass,
7:24and I actually think the ways to make it pass
7:25is we should probably be screening out for people
7:27who might have posttraumatic stress disorder,
7:30you know, any kind of, like, clinical problem
7:32that could make them more vulnerable
7:34to a type of event like this with the addition of something
7:38like a trauma counselor on-site.
7:40I actually think that under those circumstances,
7:42-it might pass. -Can you present
7:44a compelling case as to the social good of this study?
7:47-I agree. -If you could find a way
7:49to say, "Look, this is why it's important.
7:50It's not just basic theoretical research.
7:52This has direct implications for mass transit,
7:56direct implications for self-driving cars.
7:59It's a risk-benefit,
8:00but the benefits are potentially tremendous."
8:02Right, and so my hope is that the good this experiment does
8:07is in revealing the difference between instinct
8:12and philosophical reflection,
8:16and I think that there could be an enormous benefit
8:19in learning the difference so that we can train people
8:21to act in the way that they wish they would.
8:24-[David] Yeah. -[Natasha] That's interesting.
8:26-That's a compelling argument. -[Natasha] Yeah.
8:29I came into this meeting expecting a lot of resistance,
8:33but, instead, I'm actually leaving invigorated,
8:36like, excited to take their concerns,
8:39implement them into the study,
8:40and make it not just more acceptable,
8:42which I thought was the purpose here,
8:44but to actually make it more beneficial,
8:46more fascinating, and penetrate deeper
8:50and have more applications in society.
8:57So I decided we were ready to move forward,
9:00to turn one of the most notorious
9:02hypothetical ethical dilemmas into a reality.
9:06[train horn blowing]
9:10We traveled to an abandoned railroad line
9:12and hired a freight train.
9:14Our subjects needed to be shown how switch points work.
9:17So the "Mind Field" production team
9:19shot a video of a train going down two tracks.
9:22Then we dressed six actors like railroad workers.
9:26Since we didn't want them to be at actual risks of harm,
9:28we took steps to make sure they were safe.
9:30You're all going to be workers on the track.
9:32We will not have the train moving
9:34while you are on the tracks.
9:36[Michael] We filmed our actors on the tracks,
9:39wearing ear protection and looking distracted
9:41to explain why they couldn't hear
9:42a train coming toward them.
9:43Then in editing, we employed visual effects
9:47to create the illusion of the train approaching.
9:49We then combined the shots together.
9:51During the experiment, we would play the video
9:54for our subjects, who would believe
9:55the action was happening live
9:57and transmitted from remote cameras.
10:02Our next step was to find an expert
10:04who would be willing to guide me through the process
10:06of selecting our subjects,
10:08in order to minimize psychological harm.
10:11So what should I be worried about?
10:13The worst would probably be posttraumatic stress disorder,
10:16and that's when they're going to be re-experiencing the trauma.
10:19They'll keep thinking about it over and over,
10:21and so to limit risk, you'd want to screen out people
10:25prone to a traumatic reaction,
10:27and then afterwards, do the debrief.
10:29That's the key to limit harm from happening.
10:32How are they feeling at this moment?
10:33What's going on with them?
10:35You can start to ease them into the reality
10:37of what is instead of what they thought it was.
10:40Would you be willing to help us conduct this experiment?
10:43Oh, uh...
10:45yes, I mean, I think I would.
10:47I think this is a really fascinating
10:49and valuable experiment, because people can have
10:52very uncomfortable lessons that they then start to learn from.
10:56If I can make sure that we get people who may be appropriate
10:59to do such a thing, I would be honored.
11:08[woman] I'm calling regarding a study we're doing
11:11for high-speed railway.
11:12I wanted to know if you might be interested
11:13in participating next week.
11:15[Michael] To disguise the true nature of our experiment,
11:18we placed an online ad recruiting people
11:21for a fake focus group to offer feedback
11:23on California's new high-speed rail.
11:26Today I'm just going to ask you to fill out a couple forms
11:29to make sure that there's a range of personality types
11:32in our group and for TSA security purposes.
11:36[Michael] These psychological surveys,
11:38used frequently by employers,
11:39look to uncover signs of depression, anxiety,
11:42and other conditions that might make someone
11:44unsuitable to participate in this experiment.
11:46Thank you very much. Have a great day.
11:48Thank you.
11:50Back in Dr. Cason's office,
11:52we reviewed the potential subjects' responses.
11:54This particular person, I was concerned about this.
11:58Some high suicidal thinking, high acting out.
12:02Those kinds of factors might not be good in an experiment
12:05where you want to try to prevent
12:07-some of the trauma from happening. -Right.
12:09These people, though,
12:10and there's a large group of them,
12:12they are more resilient.
12:14So I would be more comfortable with these people,
12:18because their ability to bounce back
12:19in difficult situations might make them
12:22less susceptible to a trauma.
12:24[Michael] Finally, after consulting two psychologists
12:27and a university ethics board,
12:29it was time to put our plan into action.
12:46[Michael] This is where we're going to physically create
12:48the trolley problem in real life,
12:50not with a trolley, but with a train.
12:53Our subjects will sign in at this booth
12:55for our phony focus test,
12:56which will never actually take place.
12:58It's going to be a hot day for them.
13:00So we'll offer them, while they wait
13:02for the actual test to begin, the chance to sit inside
13:05this nice air-conditioned remote switching station.
13:07Inside, they'll meet a kindly train-switch operator,
13:11supposedly an employee
13:13of the California Railroad Authority.
13:15The California Railroad Authority is real.
13:17Real fake.
13:19We invented this nonexistent government organization
13:22to convince our subjects that everything here is real,
13:26including these monitors showing supposedly live shots
13:30of actual trains from different tracks
13:32all around the California area.
13:34[horn blows]
13:38While the participant is waiting inside this room,
13:40they'll learn how the operator switches the tracks
13:42using a lever to remotely switch a train
13:44from one track to another.
13:46They'll see it happen.
13:47We're actually controlling the video
13:49on these screens from a different hidden control room.
13:52At a given time, the switch operator
13:54will leave the subject alone in the switching station.
13:57And at that point, a crisis will occur.
14:02-[brakes hiss] -[horn blows]
14:05A train will be barreling down the tracks,
14:08and workers will have made their way out to both tracks,
14:10five on one, one worker on his phone on the other.
14:15No one is around for them to alert
14:17who has any kind of control or authority.
14:19Switching the train is up to the subject alone.
14:22They'll feel like what they do has real-world consequences.
14:25-[train horn blows] -Will five people die...
14:28or will one?
14:30[horn blows]
14:37Our first participant is almost here,
14:40so it's time for me to get ready.
14:42Dr. Cason, how are you feeling?
14:44-Good. -My hypothesis
14:46is that we're going see people immediately,
14:49when they hear that first warning,
14:51leave the station and not want to get back inside.
14:53The other option would be, of course, the freeze action,
14:56where they don't do anything,
14:57'cause they don't know what to do.
14:59In that case, we want to know their thought process.
15:02It'll be interesting to see. This has never been done before.
15:05All right, well, here we go.
15:08[warning bells clanging]
15:11[Michael] Our first subject is Elsa.
15:13[woman] Do you wanna stand over here in the shade?
15:15Hi, I'm Elsa, nice to meet you.
15:17Nice to meet you, Elsa.
15:19[Michael] Everyone she meets is an actor,
15:21and all of our cameras are hidden
15:23so she has no idea that she's being watched.
15:26Oh, yeah, thank you so much,
15:27and then my phone if I can.
15:28Thank you.
15:30[Michael] Our subjects were told that the technology
15:32they're about to see is proprietary.
15:34This gave us an excuse to collect their phones
15:36so they couldn't call for help during the imminent crisis.
15:40-Thank you so much for coming out today. -Thank you.
15:42What we're doing here is, the California Railroad Authority,
15:45they're developing high-speed trains.
15:48And so we want the public to come in and give us
15:50some feedback on how comfortable they are, the decor, you know.
15:55-Oh, wow. -All that kind of stuff.
15:56-[cell phone chirps] -Um, oh, shoot.
15:59They're running a little behind from the last one.
16:01-That's okay. -So it's just gonna be, like, another 15, maybe 20 minutes.
16:04Yeah, that's fine, yeah. No problem.
16:06Um... you know what? I've got an idea.
16:10Okay.
16:11Michael: Now Elsa believes
16:13she has to wait for 20 minutes.
16:15-[knock on door] -Yeah?
16:16Our actress pretends to ask permission
16:18for her to wait inside the switching station.
16:19So, actually, this isn't part of it.
16:22This is a remote train-switching station,
16:24but since it's gonna be a little bit,
16:26and it's nice and cool and air-conditioned in there,
16:28I just talked to Eddie, and he said
16:30it would be totally great for you to come in...
16:32-Oh, yeah, okay. -...and just check it out...
16:34-Okay, cool. -...and see what they do in there.
16:39Eddie, this is Elsa.
16:41-How are you, Elsa? -I'm good, how are you?
16:43Good, come on in, have a seat.
16:46So what brings you out this way?
16:48Um, the focus group. [laughs]
16:50Focus group.
16:52Yes, the high-speed railroad. The luxury railroad.
16:55Okay. So what we got here is a remote switching station.
16:59These are all live feeds.
17:01What's happening is there's a lot of construction going on.
17:05We're going to have to put all new ballast through here,
17:07new ribbon rail right here on these.
17:09[Michael] In case you're wondering, we hired an actor
17:11who actually spent 20 years working on railroads.
17:14Can you imagine if we had an actor who didn't know
17:15a lot about trains?
17:17[Greg] He offers something called face validity
17:20in that you can look him, and you think,
17:22"Ah, this guy's real."
17:24My job here is to take care of all the switching
17:27right here on these two tracks right now.
17:29And so there needs to be someone in here all the time.
17:32Now, the other thing about this--
17:33[female voice] Attention, train approaching.
17:36This is probably a work unit that's coming.
17:39-Uh-huh. -We're gonna divert it to track two.
17:43Okay, so a train's coming.
17:44Now's a chance for her to learn how the switch works.
17:45Ah, very good.
17:47In fact, why don't you be the one to do that?
17:49Just go ahead and throw it yourself.
17:51-Pull it down. -Right now?
17:53Yeah, go ahead. Good.
17:55It's going much faster than you think.
17:58All right, it's gonna make the transition to track number two.
18:02Well, I tell you what. You're now a switchman.
18:06[both laugh]
18:08Okay, well, now that the trailing car
18:11is clear of the switch points,
18:13go ahead and switch it back to track one.
18:15-Okay. -That was kind of scary.
18:18I was like, oh, my gosh, I have to turn it.
18:20Well, just you wait.
18:22The good thing is we've got it back on line one,
18:24and that means that the next train that comes through
18:27will go through on track one.
18:29[Michael] Elsa now understands exactly
18:31where the trains will go,
18:32switch one to the left, switch two to the right.
18:36It was time to force her to make a very difficult decision.
18:40-[cell phone rings] -Hang on.
18:42-Oh, I gotta take this. -Oh, yeah, sure, no problem.
18:45Do me a favor.
18:46-Wait right here. -Okay.
18:48Someone has to be here at all times.
18:50Okay, no problem.
18:51I'm just gonna go out and take care of this.
18:53-Okay, no problem. Okay. -Be back in a sec.
18:58[Greg] Look at her eyes
19:00'cause she's concerned immediately,
19:01a little worried, like, "What?"
19:04[Michael] We gave Elsa a couple of minutes
19:05to acclimate to her surroundings, and then,
19:08we started the playback of our staged footage.
19:13[Michael] All right, here come the workers.
19:14[female voice] Attention, object on track.
19:17Yep, she just noticed them.
19:19Attention, object on track.
19:24Attention, object on track.
19:30Attention, object on track.
19:33[Greg] She's looking in her purse to find...
19:37-[Michael] No phone? -...no phone.
19:38Attention, object on track.
19:42Attention, object on track.
19:45[Michael] I think the warning does a lot.
19:47If you're in that station, you're supposed to do something.
19:50Attention, object on track.
19:55Okay, here comes the train.
19:57[train horn blows]
19:59Attention, train approaching.
20:01Here's the "train approaching" warning.
20:03Attention, object on track.
20:06[Greg] I don't think at this-- oh, there she goes.
20:08Attention, train approaching.
20:10There's a train approaching.
20:12[woman] What?
20:13I wanted to let him know that there's a train approaching.
20:17-Oh, my God, okay. -Can you tell him?
20:18Yeah, I will go look for him right now.
20:20[Michael] But the switch operator won't be coming back.
20:23The full weight of this crisis is all on Elsa.
20:26[female voice] Attention, train approaching.
20:31-Whoa, whoa, whoa. -Attention, object on track.
20:34-Attention, train approaching. -[Greg] I can't believe this.
20:36Attention, object on track.
20:40Attention, train approaching.
20:43Attention, object on track.
20:46Attention, train approaching.
20:49Attention, object on track.
20:53End of test. Everyone is safe.
20:56End of test. Everyone is safe.
21:00-Okay. -[Michael] We didn't want
21:02the participants to think that anyone actually got hurt.
21:04So we showed them this "everyone is safe" card
21:07before the train would have actually hit anyone.
21:09-Elsa. -I'm Michael.
21:11-Hi, -And this is Greg.
21:12-This was all an experiment. -Okay.
21:14Can we come on in?
21:15We want to ask you a few questions.
21:17Yeah, sure. Did I do something wrong?
21:19-Not at all. -How are you feeling right now?
21:21[chuckles] Um... just scared.
21:24-Go ahead and take a seat. -[Greg] Scared?
21:26-Yes. -So no one was in any danger.
21:30This is a psychological experiment that we're conducting
21:33on how people behave when decisions need to be made.
21:35-Oh, okay. -Walk me through how you felt.
21:38I felt the pressure. I'm like, "Oh, my gosh,
21:40these people are gonna die."
21:41I had to make a very quick and sound decision, like,
21:44immediately, right now, right this second.
21:46Their lives were in my hands.
21:48I need to change it to track two.
21:50[Michael] What was motivating your decision to switch?
21:55So I can save more lives.
21:56I didn't know if I was making the right decision.
22:00I mean, a life is a life, right?
22:05[Michael] So when confronted with two terrible choices,
22:07at least one person was capable of taking
22:10deliberate action to sacrifice one in order to save five.
22:14But we wanted to see if Elsa's reaction was typical.
22:18-Need my phone? -Yes, please.
22:20Would you be interested in high-speed transportation?
22:23-Oh, yeah, anything that cuts through-- -[cell phone rings]
22:25Shoot, sorry. I just got a text. I'm so sorry.
22:28Why don't you have a look in there
22:29and see the trains running?
22:31Oh, it's so much nicer in here than it is out there.
22:33When I first started out, I used to have to stand out in the sun.
22:36-What? -Do you know when the next train's coming?
22:38-There's one coming right there. -He has a great eye.
22:41[female voice] Attention, train approaching.
22:43[Michael] As with Elsa, every subject received a lesson
22:46in how to switch the tracks.
22:48Why don't you go ahead and switch them?
22:49-Right here? -Yeah.
22:51Go ahead. How does that feel?
22:53I was, like, exhilarated. I was, like-- I got nervous.
22:56-[cell phone rings] -One second.
22:57Let me check this. Hang on one sec. Ah.
23:01Someone has to be in here the whole time.
23:03-I got it, yep, I'm here. -Okay.
23:04-Hello? -[laughing]
23:06Breaker, one-nine, roger, copy that.
23:08He's actually tapping into the power of being in that position.
23:11[female voice] Attention, object on track.
23:14[Michael] Here comes the test.
23:15Attention, object on track.
23:18Attention, train approaching.
23:21[Greg] She's not moving.
23:23-Attention, train approaching. -Just watch his eyebrows.
23:25[Michael] Oh, yeah.
23:27Eyes are going back and forth.
23:29Train approaching.
23:30-Oh, she's worried. -Yeah.
23:32Train approaching.
23:34I don't know what I would do in this kind of scenario.
23:36Train approaching.
23:40This is sort of that frozen pose that we see.
23:43Paralysis in the face of danger is such a common reaction.
23:46Attention, object on track.
23:49Attention, train approaching.
23:52Object on track.
23:54[Michael] Even with the train seconds away,
23:56some are still looking for others to take control.
23:59I'll go try and find him. Okay.
24:01-[sings softly] -She's singing.
24:03This is self-soothing there, yeah.
24:05[female voice] Object on track. Attention.
24:08-She's not moving. -Oh, my gosh, wow.
24:11-Okay, -Is she gonna switch it?
24:13Train approaching. Attention, object on track.
24:19Attention.
24:20End of test. Everyone is safe.
24:24-What? -All right, let's go.
24:26[Michael] Not one of these participants pulled the lever.
24:29Time to find out why.
24:30[Michael] Hello, J.R.
24:31Oh, my gosh! How you guys doing?
24:33-My name's Michael. -J.R.
24:35Everything that just happened was an experiment.
24:37[laughs]
24:40This was an experiment.
24:41-Oh, my gosh. -Okay.
24:43What were you feeling when you were watching that?
24:46Terrified! I-- I just--
24:48I was feeling a little anxious when I saw
24:49the train coming, like, "Oh, my God!"
24:51-Your heart is beating fast? -Yeah, a little bit, yeah.
24:54Tell me what was going through your mind when you heard
24:55that first warning that a train was approaching?
24:57I thought about switching it,
24:59but then actually acting on it was a different thing.
25:02I kind of suspended my responsibility.
25:06Like, I didn't know what to do, so I was just like,
25:08"Oh, I better not touch it you know, because I don't know
25:10if I'll screw something up."
25:11I would assume that there would be--
25:13out of those five guys, someone would've looked back.
25:16They were gonna get out of the way,
25:18of the train was already planning to stop.
25:20I think they probably built those trains
25:21with some type of sensor or something like that.
25:23[Michael] "The train probably had sensors."
25:25"The workers would've noticed."
25:27"I didn't want to touch the equipment."
25:29These are all forms of attribution,
25:31when an individual assumes that others
25:34are either responsible for taking action
25:35or have already done so.
25:37-Both tracks had people on them. -Right!
25:39And I just didn't know who should live and who should die.
25:42Do I switch it, do I not switch it?
25:44I mean, either way, someone's gonna get really badly hurt.
25:46I didn't want that power.
25:47It was quite-- quite the test, I would say.
25:51[Michael] It is quite the test.
25:52At this point, one subject
25:54had switched the tracks, and five others had not.
25:57But we weren't done yet. Meet Cory.
26:00-Here, have a seat. -Much obliged, thank you.
26:04This is cool.
26:05This whole module will interconnect
26:07with the entire nation if we wanted it to.
26:10But right now, we're looking at just track one on the left,
26:13track two through there.
26:15-Nice. -These are many, many miles away.
26:17-Yeah, -But they're all live feeds.
26:20Surveying the scene. Eagle's point of view.
26:23-[cell phone rings] -Yeah. Let me see what this is.
26:26-Okay, I'll be right back. -Okay, got it.
26:32[Greg] He's remaining engaged.
26:39[Michael] Here come the workers.
26:41Oh, no.
26:44[female voice] Attention, object on track.
26:47Uh, yeah.
26:48So he realizes there's a potential problem.
26:51I think he's gonna go out.
26:53Attention, train approaching.
26:56Um, there's a train coming? Um...
27:00[Greg] Okay.
27:01Attention, object on track.
27:03Uh, yeah.
27:06Attention, train approaching.
27:13Okay, he realizes there's no one there, it's urgent.
27:16Okay, so this needs to go to...
27:18Attention, object on track.
27:20[Greg] Okay, he's rehearsing what to do.
27:22-Attention, train approaching. -Oh. Track two.
27:27Do they not know?
27:28Attention, train approaching.
27:30I know. They should see this.
27:33Object on track. Attention, train approaching.
27:37-Attention, object on track. -[train horn blows]
27:42-Attention, object on track. -Oh, my God.
27:45-End of test. -Okay, good.
27:48Everyone is safe.
27:56-Hello? -Hi, Cory, my name's Michael.
27:59There was just a-- almost an accident seemingly.
28:03-Cory, everything that just happened was an experiment. -Okay.
28:06-No one was in danger. -For sure.
28:08These were just loops of video taken before.
28:10This is a psychology experiment looking at how people behave...
28:14-Okay. Okay, yeah. -...in various circumstances.
28:17So tell me how you were feeling.
28:18-Mainly a bunch of terror. -[Greg] Terror.
28:22And responsibility, because I was at the helm.
28:26And just horrified about making a decision
28:30between, like, five people compared to one.
28:34It was very scary, to say the least.
28:38-It was scary, right. -Yeah. Oh, yeah.
28:39What was going through your mind
28:41as the train's coming down the track?
28:43It was mainly to warn them.
28:48There are-- just to reiterate--
28:49What's coming up? What's coming up right now?
28:52You don't want to have to choose between people.
28:55Right.
28:56And that was really tough.
28:59Either like six families or one family?
29:02It was, like... up to me, it felt like. Yeah.
29:08It was interesting to me that you had such presence of mind.
29:13[Michael] Yeah, look for help and make a decision.
29:15The one that everyone, if you ask them in a survey,
29:19says that they would like to be brave enough to make.
29:21Yes, so that was impressive, Cory, it really was.
29:25Thank you.
29:26You know, I think it would be good to have you meet
29:29-some of the people who participated so you can see. -Awesome.
29:33Yeah, let's go do that, just follow us on out
29:35-and meet the actors. -Awesome.
29:41[Michael] Cory showed us just how important
29:43the debrief was in this situation.
29:45Meeting the actors, which all of our subjects did,
29:48reinforced that this was not a reality.
29:54So, Greg, trolley problem.
29:56-Mm-hmm. -I went into this thinking
29:59we're going to tease out some general truths about human nature.
30:02However, what we've really seen
30:04is that you learn a lot about the individual.
30:07-Right. -Everyone had some explanation for their behavior.
30:11-Yes. -Each one was different.
30:12Yes, each one person told themselves a story
30:15about what was happening according to the facts
30:17and their analysis of the surroundings
30:19and what was going on at the moment,
30:21but it's also based on their own background and experience.
30:24Totally, there were people who were just frozen,
30:27realizing something was wrong and they weren't prepared.
30:29[Greg] J.R. was a great example of that.
30:31He evaluated everything, but at some point just said,
30:35"You know, I don't know what to do."
30:37Other people were ready to say, "You know what?
30:40This isn't on me. It's on the technology.
30:43I'm sure it's being taken care of by others."
30:45Whereas someone like Cory,
30:47-someone like Elsa said... -[switch clicks]
30:49-..."No, I have to take control." -[click]
30:51They still had some of those same thoughts,
30:53but I think what happened is they realized
30:55that if they did not do something,
30:58more people would be hurt.
31:00Neither of them really wanted to do something.
31:02They both felt compelled to do something,
31:05'cause they had to save lives.
31:07So was it worth doing the trolley experiment?
31:10I think it was definitely worth it.
31:11Some of these participants, if not all of them,
31:13learned something about human behavior.
31:16Although it was a difficult experience,
31:17Elsa learned what inner strength she had,
31:20and I think we had saw that with Cory as well.
31:22Every single one of our participants felt like
31:25-they just contributed to something. -Right.
31:27And they feel the value of what just happened.
31:29-Yeah. -It's not just us.
31:31Wow.
31:38We've since followed up with our subjects,
31:40and all of them are doing well.
31:42I'm glad we minimized risk
31:44by prescreening vulnerable individuals,
31:46debriefing the participants, and providing on-site counseling
31:50because doing so gave me confidence
31:52that we could explore this facet of human psychology ethically.
31:56We learned that there's a stark difference
31:59between what people think they would do
32:01and what they actually do when faced
32:03with a difficult moral dilemma.
32:05Instead of saving five lives,
32:08most of our participants did nothing,
32:11but is it wrong to freeze?
32:14Should people feel bad for being unable to act?
32:17Well, here's the thing.
32:19Freezing in the face of a threat is a behavior
32:23that can be found all over the animal kingdom,
32:25but we are the only animals that can study how we act,
32:30pontificate on how we ought to act,
32:33and program machines to do only that.
32:37To make progress in our study of the mind,
32:40we have to affect the mind,
32:42and that's not something that we should take lightly.
32:45Understanding who we are by taking ourselves
32:48to the limit comes with a risk, and as we've learned,
32:51that risk must always be balanced
32:53against the greater good.
32:56And as always, thanks for watching.
33:02This season, on Mind Field...
33:05You're going to be a lab rat in a maze.
33:08Nobody's ever done this before.
33:11It's quite pioneering work, really.
33:14As far as I'm concerned, you're already a co-author
33:16on our scientific paper.
33:17- Ready? - Ready.
33:19I'm here on the Amazon, where I will drink
33:21an ancients psychedelic drug-- ayahuasca.
33:25Don't worry, this is a self-driving car.
33:30We'll connect through Bluetooth to this living robot.
33:33Okay, and then to the left.
33:34-Whoa. -Whoa-ho-ho!
33:36I didn't realize that you were a real person.
33:39I'm gonna tear you apart if you don't give us some answers.
33:42I am going to be taking a lie-detection test.
33:45-[buzz] -[crackling]
33:47You know, Chinese water torture isn't even Chinese.
33:50Will five people die, or will one?
33:53This is a big first for us.
33:55We're actually getting to do this for real.
33:58Welcome to Mind Field.
34:00Thanks for watching!
34:02[theme music playing]

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