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The Tate-LaBianca Radio Program: Charles Manson - Tom Snyder 1981 — Transcript

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0:14On the discovery of these crimes in
0:15Southern California, a media circus
0:17followed. Banner headlines, normally
0:20reserved for the outbreak of war,
0:21trumpeted every gruesome detail. America
0:24read that Manson led the marauding
0:26killers, that he held drug and sex
0:28orgies at his makeshift ranch, that he
0:30commanded others to kill to prove their
0:31love and loyalty to him. At the trial,
0:34Manson called himself a child of the
0:36system, and some said he had satanic
0:38powers.
0:40Now 12 years later, at the age of 47,
0:43Charles Manson remains in prison,
0:45serving a lifetime at the California
0:46Medical Facility at Vakavville. I
0:49interviewed Manson last Saturday at the
0:50jail. You will see most of that tonight.
0:53It has been edited only for purposes of
0:55time and also because the language at
0:57times was rough, very rough. Certain
0:59words have been taken out. Some people
1:02might ask, why run the Charles Manson
1:04interview? Well, television is supposed
1:06to make all of us look at ourselves. And
1:09that responsibility goes beyond
1:11picturing all of us as normal and
1:13rational people who are suddenly shocked
1:15when the time bomb of insanity goes off
1:17in our midst. To not run the Charles
1:20Manson interview now would be to ignore
1:21his perversity and that of others which
1:23now and again disrupts our lives. To
1:26ignore it, to pass the interview by
1:28would mean accepting wickedness and
1:30insanity in place of dealing with its
1:32problems.
1:33The Charles Manson interview will
1:35probably provoke dismay, possibly fear,
1:37even some anger. I hope it provokes some
1:41thought. It begins right after this.
1:55Tell me about your life here in prison.
1:57Do you read newspapers? Do you listen to
1:59the radio? Do you watch television? Do
2:01you communicate with people in the
2:02outside? What goes on for Charles Manson
2:05in this prison?
2:09Well, I can feel the grass growing out
2:11there on the lawn and there's a few
2:13trees that's got some leaves on it that
2:15I can feel. And I've been in jail all my
2:17life. So, I'm actually right here at
2:19home.
2:21Uh, how long have I been in jail? 34
2:23years. 34 years. So, um,
2:26out of 47, you've been here 34.
2:28I've been in jail.
2:30uh prison uh a long time all my life I
2:34was raised up in here so I understand
2:36jail so I understand myself and I can
2:38deal with that I set myself and I do my
2:42number like a convict does his number
2:45you like jail don't you
2:47I don't dislike or like
2:52let's go back to 1967
2:55the time you were winding up serving a
2:57term of number of years 10 years and
3:01written accounts indicate that you told
3:04the authorities, "Don't let me out. I
3:06can't cope with the outside world." Do
3:08you have a recollection of that? And
3:09you make a desperate plea out of
3:11something, man. There's no desperate
3:13plea out of it. I say, "I can't handle
3:15the maniacs outside. Let me back in."
3:17I I didn't use the word desperate.
3:19That's your word, Charles.
3:19Yeah. Well, your your inflection and
3:21your voice tones were uh implications
3:24there. Well,
3:28you use the word maniacs on the outside.
3:31How are you different from the maniacs
3:33on the outside? And why do you call them
3:35maniacs? Because you know something?
3:37They think you are one.
3:39Yeah, it would reflect. If you hold the
3:42negative up to the light, you don't see
3:45the light. You just see the negative.
3:47So, I'm a reflection of your negative.
3:48There's no doubt about that. And I can
3:50handle that also. I've been handled.
3:52Ain't I?
3:53I don't know. Have you? Well, I've been
3:55up and down these damn hallways in and
3:57out of these nut wards for the last 10
3:58years. You think you could follow that
4:00act?
4:00Don't want to follow that act. I don't
4:01want to get into But why do you want to
4:02get into that?
4:03What crowd? Why do you
4:04What crowd you playing for?
4:06I'm playing for my life. You working for
4:08money.
4:10What does that mean? You're playing for
4:11your life.
4:12I'm working for my life, mister. I'm not
4:14playing for money.
4:14What do you mean you're working? You're
4:16working for your life.
4:17I'm just playing for real.
4:19What does that mean? You're playing for
4:21real. How how are you playing something
4:22you can't buy?
4:24When you say you're playing for your
4:25life, am I to assume that you think that
4:27someday you're going to get out of here?
4:30Get out of here.
4:34Get out of here. Where would I go now?
4:36See,
4:37what would you do if you got out of
4:38here?
4:39I got out of here.
4:39What if they said they said to you
4:40tomorrow morning, Charles, hey, listen,
4:42you're free. You can go wherever you
4:44want to go. Do whatever you want to do.
4:46What would you do?
4:47I'll probably go out in front on the
4:48grass and sit down.
4:52For how long?
4:54For uh
4:56right now.
4:58How long? I wouldn't I could put a track
5:01record on it or I could uh put a
5:04computer on
5:05No. No. Come on down. Get off computers.
5:06Get off tracks. If you got out of here,
5:08there are a lot of people who think
5:09you'd go start killing people again.
5:11Again?
5:12Mhm.
5:13Well, you guys have misinformed. I
5:14haven't killed anyone.
5:16What about uh what about Shay?
5:18What about him? Well, what about him?
5:20He got killed.
5:21Well, the word is you killed him. Word
5:23is you stabbed him. What's word? What
5:24does it feel like to kill?
5:25Words.
5:26Word is that you're an old woman. Word
5:29is you have turkey in sky. Word is I
5:32don't know what word is. Somebody else
5:33tell you that. I didn't tell you that.
5:34Did you kill Shay?
5:35Hell no.
5:36Did you cut Himman's ear off?
5:38Hell yes.
5:39Why? Why? How'd that feel when you cut
5:40his ear off?
5:41Uh, I felt bad.
5:43Truth is fun though. Isn't the truth fun
5:44now when you Okay. Okay. You cut his ear
5:46off. What did it feel fun? My goodness.
5:48What did it feel like when you cut his
5:49ear off? Tell me about it. Come on.
5:51What did it feel like?
5:52Yeah.
5:53Well, I had done what he said for about
5:5620 years. I've done everything he told
5:58me to do.
6:00And I got to thinking now, why don't
6:02this guy do something I tell him to do?
6:05And he said, um, no. I said, well, how
6:08comes I'm always doing what you tell me
6:10to do, but then you never do what I say
6:13do? And he said, well, blah, blah, blah.
6:17So I said, "Now you do what I say." And
6:21he said, "No." I said, "You do exactly
6:23what I say." And he said, "No, I'm
6:27telling you. I'm not asking you. I'm
6:29telling you, you do exactly what I say."
6:33And he said, "Why? Where'd you get
6:34that?" I said, "I got it from my father
6:36in prison." He gave it to me. I had a
6:38little charm bracelet. I used to carry
6:40it on when I was about that big.
6:42Mhm. Skip that for a second. Why was it
6:44so important for him to do what you say?
6:47Why do you like having people do what
6:50you want them to do? Why do you want to
6:51control himself?
6:52Wait a minute. No, no. I was asked. The
6:54dude asked me, he says, "You my
6:55brother?" I said, "Yeah, I'm your
6:56brother." He said, "How much are you my
6:58brother?" I said, "Completely.
7:01See, if I'm going to explain it to you,
7:02it's not going to be that easy. So,
7:05you're going to have to bear with me."
7:08So,
7:09Bobby said, he was a young dude, and he
7:11said, "I'm your brother." I said, "Okay,
7:13Bobby,
7:13I'm your brother." Bosle. Bosle. I just
7:16got out of prison.
7:17Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Yeah.
7:18Let me interrupt you for a second.
7:19Yeah. Well, then we're gone with that.
7:20No, no, no, no. Because you're you're
7:22getting on the
7:23We'll go to another one. Then you make
7:24me look crazy.
7:25No, no, no. You can make yourself look
7:27crazy, Charles. I can't make you look
7:28crazy. And please believe me.
7:30All right. I believe you. And I'll put
7:32it in my left hand pocket for later.
7:34Let me take you back to you wanting this
7:37man Henman.
7:39I cut to der because because he was over
7:43Bobby and Bobby was a youngster and
7:45really didn't know what the hell he was
7:46doing and he was a kid and he never had
7:49no man show him nothing. See? So I was
7:51telling the boy I said uh uh the guy he
7:57says you got my money. I said go and get
7:58the money or leave him alone.
8:00You're taking me to another story.
8:01No, I'm taking I'm trying to tell you
8:02the same thing and we'll be here for a
8:04thousand years unless you let me finish
8:06it.
8:06No, no, no. We won't be here for that
8:08long at all if you'll just speak to this
8:09one point.
8:10I point cut the dude's ear off, man.
8:13That's the point.
8:14I didn't ask you that. I said, why was
8:15it important to you to make Henman do
8:17what you wanted him to do?
8:19And if one follows your Okay. And if one
8:21follows your story through the through
8:23the times on the ranch down in Southern
8:25California. It was important for Charles
8:27Manson to be a leader, to have people
8:29following.
8:29Come on, district attorney. So you can
8:31full of brainwash. That's a district
8:33attorney. I'm nobody's and I'm nobody's
8:37follower. I got a pro officer. I got a
8:40sleeping bag and a guitar and I'm
8:41staying at old blind man's ranch and
8:44that's about the extent of it. All this
8:45all cult all that hocus pocus stuff that
8:48you guys are playing. I don't know
8:49nothing about all that.
8:50You know nothing about something called
8:51Helter Skelter. You know nothing about
8:53Yeah, I know about Helter Skelter. It
8:54was a song that some people sang
8:56and that's all it was.
8:57And some other kids picked it up in
8:58their minds and they said, "What do you
9:00think Helter Skelter is?" I said, "Well,
9:02I get out of the penitentiary in the 50s
9:04and everybody's going th
9:08locked back up. I get out in the
9:09penitentiary in the ' 65 and it's going
9:13and I get locked up again and I come out
9:14in the ' 69. It's going
9:17singing." Wow, man. Wow. Wow. Wow. What?
9:20Come on.
9:20Well, I was I was a beatnick in the 50s
9:23before the hippies came along. You know,
9:26I cut a rut down through Akapulco and I
9:29smoked Akapulco before you knew what it
9:31was. And I lived in the tombs and I was
9:33in the Cook County jail in Chicago when
9:35you were playing cricket in uh high
9:37school. See, like you live in another
9:40world. I live in street people's world.
9:57Yeah,
9:58Manson had a little scheme called creepy
10:00crawlers. He'd send people in to move
10:02furniture around. Is that all a figment
10:03of somebody's imagination so far? Or is
10:05that or is there any truth to that? Tell
10:06me, Charles. I don't know.
10:08It's a fairy It's worse than a fairy
10:10tale.
10:10It's a fairy tale.
10:12It's a It's It's a comedy. It's a comedy
10:14tragedy uh opera that uh was played uh
10:18in the early morning.
10:19Come on. Sickening off his face,
10:21you know. Well, that's what the DA gave
10:23you for reality. Okay.
10:24He stood in the courtroom and said,
10:25"This man did this and this man did
10:27that. You all believed him." He said,
10:29"This man did that." And I said, "Your
10:30honor, may I speak?" And they said, "No,
10:32you can't speak." I said, "My honor, I
10:33go to voice. Let me talk." He said, "No,
10:34sit down and shut up." Then he
10:36handcuffed me, take me to the back, whip
10:37my
10:39What are you going to do? I come out to
10:40sit down and I ain't going to get
10:41whipped again. Didn't uh you stand up in
10:43that courtroom and by the way by the by
10:46the way let me just go back.
10:47I felt the rep repercussions in the back
10:48of the
10:49Okay. But you you say the whole thing is
10:51a fairy tale. You say the whole thing is
10:52make believe.
10:53Yeah. That's his helter skeleton. It
10:55wasn't mine.
10:56The body of Sharon Tate is make believe.
10:58That's make that's make believe. That's
11:00make believe to the people that went in
11:01there and did what they did.
11:02Mhm. And who were those people? You know
11:04who you know but you know who they were.
11:06Sure know who they were.
11:07They were with you at the Spawn Ranch.
11:09They were part of this thing called if
11:11not the Manson family or the Manson
11:12cult, the the Manson ranch. Call it
11:14what?
11:16What?
11:17And Tex Watson testified in a court of
11:19law that you told him go to the house
11:21that Terry Meltchure used to live in and
11:24kill those people in a most gruesome
11:26way. A man that was once your associate
11:28said that of you and now you sit here
11:30and say that's not true. That's all make
11:32believe.
11:32You got a stone wall there. Won't you
11:34take it down a little bit? Look here.
11:36I'll explain something to you. Uh Tex
11:41took the witness stand and this is
11:42record and he said I don't know whether
11:45I'm Charlie Manson or my mother.
11:49Text didn't have his own mind one way or
11:52the other. He was balanced back and
11:54forwards because I had already took his
11:57mind in another game down the road that
11:59I was playing with some Hell's Angels
12:01that you don't know nothing about. And
12:03you probably never will know nothing
12:04about it because you would have to know
12:07those people to get in that thought.
12:08See,
12:10but there's different colors on
12:11different people's backs doing different
12:13things. It's a different world. I love
12:15the world I live in, too. Just like Rean
12:17loves the world he lives in. You would
12:19love the world you live in, huh? Most
12:22assuredly it's me. You love all the pain
12:24that you've caused people. All the
12:26anguish you
12:27Oh, I don't know pain. I don't know
12:29pain. I have no depth of pain. I have no
12:31depth of suffering. I don't know
12:33ridicule. I don't know all the bad
12:35things. I haven't been punished by you
12:37all my life since I was 10 years old.
12:39I've been in every reform school you got
12:41across the country and used to lay down
12:43have to get my ass whipped till I
12:44couldn't walk. Tell me about some pain.
12:47And that's our fault. That's all people
12:49fault. Make strong good pain. Understand
12:52pain. Not bad.
12:54Pain's not bad. It's good. It teaches
12:57you things.
13:00It teaches you things. Like when you put
13:01your hand in fire. I you know not to do
13:03that again.
13:04Yeah.
13:05Yeah. I understand that.
13:06But how come you didn't learn?
13:07That's the reason I never stick my hand
13:08in fire.
13:09But excuse me. You've got put been
13:11putting your hand in the fire since you
13:12were a little boy.
13:13I have.
13:14By you just told me a couple of minutes
13:15ago that out of 47 years you've spent 34
13:18of them behind bars. Now that isn't
13:19keeping putting your hand in the fire.
13:21I don't know what is.
13:22What year was that?
13:23It's the year is not important. What's
13:26important is you just say that you learn
13:28by pain not to experience again. Don't
13:30put your hand back in the fire. Why?
13:32You've been in and out of prisons for
13:33the last for 34 of your 47 years.
13:36You call that normal behavior, Charles?
13:38Is that something that you're proud of?
13:39I mean,
13:39no. Never. Well, I never thought I was
13:41normal. Never tried to be normal. Normal
13:44runs in a little rut down there. I don't
13:45know nothing about being normal. I've
13:47been in jail all my life, man. I've
13:49lived on a handball court. This guy
13:50raised me up. All the men in the joint
13:53raised me up, told me what to do, what
13:54was right and wrong, told me when to sit
13:55down, stand up. I just did everything I
13:57was told, you know, and I got to the end
13:59of it and I just turned around and said,
14:00"Wow, now that's hard."
14:01You know, and then I went outside and
14:02all these little kids got a hold of me
14:04and said, "We ain't going to stop the
14:05Vietnam War and we want to do this."
14:06What? It was a war. I don't know what's
14:08happening. I've been in jail all my
14:09life, man. I never went to vocational.
14:11You ever see me in vocational training,
14:12rehabilitation? Never played no
14:14rehabilitation. I sweep the floor in the
14:16kitchen, go out and play handball. I'm
14:19still 10 years old in your world. Your
14:21world. I'm still a kid. I'm not going to
14:23grow up. I'm not going to go to college.
14:24How old are you in your world?
14:26Uh, forever. Since the breakfast. I
14:28can't remember what
14:29I don't know what that means. Come on.
14:30Off the space shuttle. Charles.
14:31Yeah, it's off the space shuttle now.
14:32How old are you in your world?
14:34How old am I? I'm as old as my mother
14:37told me.
14:38How's that?
14:39Your mother. Tell me about your mother.
14:40What' your mother tell you? My mother
14:42told me when she worked on Death Road
14:44and they took that dude in to hang him
14:46and his head popped off and went down
14:47them 13 stairs and rolled over by her.
14:49It scared the out of her, you know. So I
14:52said, "Wow, that sure is a far out trip,
14:54mom." So then when I got up on death row
14:57in cell 13 for nine counts of murder
15:001969
15:02and I looked at at her fears that guy's
15:05head popping off that hangman's noose
15:08and I said to myself, uh, my goodness,
15:10what the hell am I doing here? I didn't
15:12want to come here. I didn't break the
15:14law. Judge knew that, but the people
15:18didn't want to hear it. The judge knew
15:20it. He washed his hands. He said, "I
15:22know it, but what can I do? People want
15:24this." Judge never said that. Yeah,
15:25judge.
15:26That's what older said.
15:27No, judge didn't say that.
15:28He got off and shook their hands, didn't
15:29he?
15:30Judge did not say that he washed his
15:32hands.
15:32He's a flying tiger, man. For Madam
15:34Chiang Kaek, I just wrote a letter.
15:35Judge Judge didn't say that you were
15:36innocent, Charles.
15:38Innocent.
15:38Let's go back to your mother.
15:40Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a
15:41minute. Let's get back to that word
15:42innocent. You're so white and pure.
15:45Judge didn't say you were innocent.
15:46Are you innocent?
15:47Innocent of what?
15:48Oh, that's what I'm saying.
15:49None of us are innocent.
15:50Yeah. Just because you're convicted in a
15:52courtroom doesn't mean you're guilty of
15:53something. What does mean you're guilty?
15:55Well, you know you're guilty.
15:56And how do you feel about yourself? Tell
15:58me about yourself.
15:58I feel I feel pretty good.
16:14Let me take you back to your mom.
16:16Take me back to
16:17What else did she talk to you about
16:19besides the fellow whose head popped
16:22off? The head popped off. Yeah. She was
16:24living in the Blue Moon Cafe and she'd
16:26hit a dude in the head with a with one
16:28of them bottles of uh Jim Beam whiskey.
16:31She tried to hustle a few dollars on the
16:33corner, but there was no money. So when
16:35she jammed this whiskey bottle upside
16:37that clown's head, he went down. She
16:38took the bread, come up, got me, and we
16:40left. Went to Indiana.
16:45When you were a boy, did you love your
16:46mother?
16:48Uh, I didn't know what that was.
16:52Did you respect your mother? How did you
16:54feel about How do you feel about your
16:55mom right now? If your mother I don't
16:57know if she's alive, Charles, or not?
16:58Yeah. You don't.
16:59Do you?
17:01Let's see.
17:03Alive now. Yeah.
17:06Yeah. Maybe.
17:06I mean, if she could be watching this
17:08right now,
17:08be watching this.
17:09What would you say to her, Charles?
17:11Oh, well,
17:12what would you say to mom? I'd say you
17:15sure went through a whole lot of changes
17:17to get me as far as you did and you did
17:20a damn good job with the help of my
17:22grandma. My grandma was a mountain girl
17:25from Kentucky up in the mountains and uh
17:27she never did drink or smoke or cuss or
17:30lie. She used to cook for the Salvation
17:33Army and she was a human being.
17:37Good one.
17:39I go to church down there and sweep the
17:41floor for
17:43Well, how were you in school? I hear
17:45that you weren't too good, but maybe I
17:46heard.
17:47Uh, depends on which school. I did very
17:48well in reform school.
17:50Yeah, I did good in uh in uh every place
17:54that uh I was ever told to do good in.
17:56As much as I was allowed to do, you
17:59know, a lot of times good for some might
18:01not be the same for others. And
18:03sometimes it kind of bumps heads, but
18:05when it does, then um
18:09I just chew on my pipe and think about
18:10it
18:12and do the best I can.
18:14Mhm. But
18:14you dealt you dealt the hand down there
18:16in LA. You in that press, you in that uh
18:19LA Times, you dealt the hand. You put me
18:21on Life magazine had me convicted before
18:23I walked in the courtroom. You had what
18:26people wanted to buy. When they wanted
18:27to buy it, they didn't give a damn if
18:29they had to convict the district
18:30attorney. They had convicted the whole
18:31building to get that dollar bill going
18:33there. They had big bucks going there.
18:35They made 27 million,000 billion. I'm
18:38buming 10 $15 for my friend here.
18:53Let me take you back to your mom.
18:55Take me back to
18:56What else did she talk to you about
18:58besides the fellow whose head popped
19:01off?
19:02The head popped off? Yeah. She was
19:03living in the Blue Moon Cafe and she'd
19:05hit a dude in the head with a with one
19:07of them bottles of Jim Beam whiskey. She
19:10tried to hustle a few dollars on the
19:12corner, but there was no money. So when
19:14she jammed this whiskey bottle upside
19:16that clown's head, he went down. She
19:17took the bread, come up and got me, and
19:19we left. Went to Indiana.
19:24When you were a boy, did you love your
19:25mother?
19:27Uh, I didn't know what that was.
19:30Did you respect your mother? How did you
19:32feel about How do you feel about your
19:34mom right now? If your mother I don't
19:36know if she's alive, Charles, or not?
19:37Yeah. You don't.
19:38Do you?
19:40Let's see.
19:42Alive now. Yeah.
19:45Yeah. Maybe.
19:45I mean, if she could be watching this
19:47right now watching this,
19:48what would you say to her, Charles?
19:49Uh, well,
19:51what would you say to mom? I'd say you
19:54sure went through a whole lot of changes
19:56to get me as far as you did. And you did
19:59a damn good job with the help of my
20:01grandma. My grandma was a mountain girl
20:04from Kentucky up in the mountains. And
20:06uh she never did drink or smoke or cuss
20:09or lie. She used to cook for the
20:12Salvation Army. And she was a human
20:14being.
20:16Good one.
20:18I go to church down there and sweep the
20:20floor for her.
20:22Well, h how were you in school? I hear
20:24that you weren't too good, but maybe I
20:25heard.
20:26Uh depends on which school. I did very
20:27well in reform school.
20:29Yeah,
20:29I did good in uh in uh every place that
20:33uh I was ever told to do good in as much
20:36as I was allowed to do. You know, a lot
20:39of times good for some might not be the
20:41same for others. And sometimes it kind
20:43of bumps heads, but when it does, then
20:45um
20:47I just chew on my pipe and think about
20:49it.
20:51and do the best I can.
20:53But
20:53you dealt you dealt the hand down there
20:55in LA. You in that press, you in that uh
20:58LA Times, you dealt the hand. You put me
21:00on Life magazine, had me convicted
21:02before I walked in the courtroom. You
21:04had what people wanted to buy. When they
21:06wanted to buy it, they didn't give a
21:07damn. They had to convict the district
21:09attorney. They had convicted the whole
21:10building to get that dollar bill going
21:12there. They had big bucks going there.
21:14They made 27 million,000 billion. I'm
21:16buming 105 dollars for my friend here.
21:31another newspaper account that you can
21:33now speak to since you haven't done it
21:35before that on the night following the
21:38uh killings at the house on Seattle
21:40Drive in Los Angeles, you accompanied
21:43four people to a home occupied by Mr.
21:46and Mrs. Leo Labiana.
21:48Yeah. that you went inside that house
21:50and you tied them up
21:52and assured them that they were not
21:53going to be hurt.
21:54That you went back outside and sent
21:56Cassabian and Krenwinkle and Watton and
21:59Atkins inside the house to kill him.
22:01True or false?
22:03Mhm.
22:06Cuz you know something, Charles, that's
22:08what you were convicted of, among other
22:10things.
22:10All right.
22:11Is it true or false?
22:12Do you deserve?
22:14No. No. No. It's it's it's a yes or a
22:15no. But it's so simple. Try it. Try it.
22:18Try it.
22:18No. Nothing. Yes or no? No. You You put
22:22through your little boxes and things,
22:24you know. Look here. Uh, first you have
22:27to see where I'm coming from.
22:31Not on that question. There's no coming
22:32from anywhere on that question. Charles,
22:39did you do that?
22:43Chair's getting hot, huh?
22:59Get mad, get angry, come over here and
23:02hit me if you like. But why don't you
23:04answer the question?
23:06Hit you
23:07if you like.
23:08No,
23:09answer the question.
23:09I didn't want to hit you.
23:14I uh got out of prison
23:18and I went up in the streams and I seen
23:21a big fat dead rat
23:23I'm going to ask
23:24laying in the water.
23:25Uh-huh.
23:26Same question again.
23:30Same question again.
23:31Mhm.
23:32Did I break the law? Is that your
23:34question? The question was that on the
23:36night following the murders or the
23:39killings
23:41or whatever else you want to call it at
23:42the uh Melture home
23:44Mhm.
23:45on Sello Drive in Los Angeles.
23:47Mhm.
23:48Newspaper accounts
23:50claimed that you, Krenwinkle,
23:53Atkins, Cassabian, and Watson went to
23:56the home of Mr. and Mrs. Labianca in Los
23:59Angeles.
23:59That you went inside their house, tied
24:01them up,
24:02assured them that they would not be
24:04hurt. and then went outside and sent the
24:06other four in newspaper I newspaper
24:08accounts and this is one of the things
24:10for which you were convicted in a
24:11courtroom in Los Angeles.
24:13Now here's your chance before the whole
24:15world to tell it straight once and for
24:17all. Did you do that?
24:20Did I kill anyone?
24:21No. Did you go in and tie up the Liancas
24:24that night? Very simple question.
24:26That night
24:28August 10th, 1969.
24:30That night. August the 10th 1969.
24:33Why duck it? Why do it? Why not answer
24:34it yes or no once and for all? Put it
24:36behind you.
24:46Did I kill anyone? Did you tie up the
24:49lobbyians?
25:01Atkins testified. You did.
25:05That's what Susie said.
25:06That's what she said.
25:07Yeah.
25:07And you remember you were in the
25:09courtroom when she said it.
25:10Mhm.
25:10She's written three books and each time
25:12she said something different.
25:13Mhm.
25:14Each time.
25:14Did you tie them up?
25:16Did I?
25:16Mhm.
25:18Well, we came down from Abberene
25:22and uh
25:23let's stay in Los Angeles. August 10,
25:251969.
25:26There was a hole in the wall gang there.
25:32Why don't you want to talk about it,
25:34Charles? Why don't you want?
25:35Because I'm an outlaw and I go so far
25:38and then that's all you know.
25:43And if you did,
25:44that's like asking Jesse James.
25:45And if and and if and and if, as others
25:48have written and as others have
25:49testified and as the media has reported,
25:52you did that.
25:53Yeah.
25:54And you sent your friends back in to do
25:56the deed, aren't you a coward? my
25:57friends back in to do the terrible deed.
26:00The wicked deed. Did we have the castle
26:02there with the vampires and the
26:04Frankenstein and the uh bugs and lizards
26:08dying in the deserts?
26:10Do we have the water that's dying and
26:12the whales are being killed and the
26:13seals are
26:14Here we go again. Lay it off on somebody
26:15else. Let's point to all the other
26:17interest.
26:17I'm I'm in the world all by myself.
26:21Yeah. On this one you are.
26:23Yeah.
26:23Yeah.
26:26was okay if that's the way you see it
26:28for you.
26:28Well, whether you like it or not,
26:30Charles, all those things that happened
26:32that August in Los Angeles are
26:34identified as the Manson killings.
26:36Yeah, that's what your history book.
26:38So, you can sit here and talk to me
26:39about the whales and Hiroshima, and you
26:41can sit and talk about the environment
26:42in the Great Lakes, and that's all fine,
26:44but what it really comes down to in this
26:46particular instance is that this one is
26:47your ball game.
26:49Yeah. Well, if I can get some help from
26:50the doctor, then I can get my mind
26:53straighten out a little bit and maybe I
26:54could come back and play like a human
27:09about this before, but I'm going to make
27:11it. I'm try it one more time. Pull cards
27:13out. You can see them where I'm
27:15You got a pistol on you?
27:16No, sir. They wouldn't let me in here if
27:18I had a pistol. You know that. as well
27:19as I do. So why even ask the question?
27:21Okay.
27:21Well, I just thought you might not like
27:23what I done. You want to do something
27:24about it?
27:25I don't much care for what you've done.
27:27Yeah.
27:28A lot of people don't. How do you feel
27:29about that?
27:30A lot of people think you're a monster,
27:32Charles. How you
27:32Yeah, they think you're a monster
27:34because you reflect this news media on
27:35me.
27:37Cult leader, I never had a long hair
27:39before I got busted. I never had a beard
27:40before I got busted. I went to shave and
27:43the guy said, "No, you can't shave." I
27:45said, "I need a razor shave." Said, "No,
27:46you can't shave us. Let me get a
27:47haircut." Now, we don't want you to
27:48change your appearance. So, when you put
27:50put the camera first on, you got long
27:52hair and a beard. First time in my life
27:53ever had long hair and a beard.
27:55You want to You want to shave and get a
27:56haircut? I'll shut them off. You get a
27:57shave and a haircut.
27:58Am I telling him right? I'm not of this
27:59generation.
28:00You want a shave in a haircut right now?
28:01I'll shut him down right now. You want
28:02to shave a haircut?
28:03I was trying to explain to you, man,
28:05that a lot they pushed off on me is not
28:07me.
28:09They said I had a great family and I was
28:11the following and leaders and all that.
28:12There was no followers and leaders, a
28:13bunch of kids out the ranch playing
28:16to me. Planet what?
28:17Planet Living.
28:20The accounts say that you that you gave
28:23him dope. I'm just saying what the
28:25accounts say. I'm not saying I know it
28:26to be so. So, here's your chance to to
28:28say it wasn't true. Okay.
28:30That there was a lot of hankypanky that
28:31you turn the girls on with dope and sex
28:33out there. That's art. That's what they
28:35said.
28:36What are they wrong?
28:38Oh, well, I went down to hate Ashberry
28:42and little kid 10 years old come up
28:43said, "You want an acid peel?" I said,
28:45"What's that? He said, "This is good.
28:47Make colors go." I said, "No, I heard
28:49about them things. I don't want none of
28:50that." And and then another little kid
28:53was rolling a joint. And they were
28:55sitting there smoking the joint. They
28:56asked me if I wanted one.
28:59What'd you say?
29:01I said, "I used to smoke this stuff in
29:02the 60s, but it never in the 50s, but it
29:05really really wasn't that, you know, it
29:07was funny, but it's not."
29:08How much How much dope did you use in
29:09your lifetime? Were you a heavy user of
29:11dope? No, I smoked a little grass and
29:13I've taken some acid masculine uh
29:16psilocybin peyote
29:20mushroom
29:22but actually take uh dope. No, nothing.
29:25I wouldn't take anything that I feel
29:26would hurt me.
29:27Mhm. Do you feel that those things that
29:28you just mentioned hurt you at all,
29:30Charles?
29:30Uh
29:32physically or spiritually?
29:34Mentally, you know.
29:35And then on what level? On the level of
29:36society, the way you view the norm?
29:38No, no, no, no, no, no. who stopped the
29:40hogwash. Do you feel that the drugs that
29:42you did use in your earlier lifetime
29:45confused you, altered your mind, uh,
29:49juggled it, scrambled it, made you see
29:51things differently?
29:54Stay on that level if you can.
29:56Maybe I find a spirit of uh, caveman
30:02think through brain.
30:03Let me try it again. Do you think the
30:04drugs you use hurt you?
30:08Drugs hurt me? No, I don't think the
30:10drugs have hurt me. If I overdone it, I
30:12think it would.
30:12You don't want to be anybody's leader,
30:14do you?
30:14No.
30:14Never did want to be anybody's leader.
30:17Don't like attention.
30:20Then why do you
30:22Most insecure people need attention? I
30:23don't
30:24Well, I was just going to say then if
30:25you don't want attention, why do you
30:26keep why all your life have you kept
30:28waving your arms saying, "Hey, look at
30:29me.
30:30That's what I've been doing all my
30:31life."
30:32Well, I would have to say that a young
30:33man,
30:33See if I got that documented. who by the
30:36time he's 20 years old uh has been in
30:39and out of jails and reform schools for
30:41a variety of offenses that include wife
30:44beating
30:45wife beating. Now that's never whipped
30:47my old lady.
30:48Didn't you?
30:48No, I punched my mother out once.
30:50Oh, you did? All right. Well, we'll call
30:51it mother beating. Uh uh forging checks.
30:54She was wrong and she lied to me and
30:56beat me for my money and uh and she
30:58didn't do right.
30:58Forging forging checks. Uh car theft. I
31:03mean, these are ways of waving your arms
31:04and saying, "Look at me. Give me some
31:06attention." Yet, you say you don't want
31:08any attention. Now, Charles, that's a
31:09contradiction. That doesn't make any
31:11sense.
31:11Well, over a period of about 20 years, I
31:14imagine you'd want to change something.
31:17I'm not very wise to many things, but I
31:21am wise to one thing, you know.
31:26What's that?
31:28Well, I'm going to tell you.
31:30Okay. You punched your mother. Did you
31:32hate your mother?
31:32No, I love her. She's a good girl.
31:36What about your wife? You you were
31:37married once, weren't you?
31:38Yeah.
31:39How'd that go? Why'd you want to get
31:40married? That's kind of conventional.
31:42That's kind of normal. That's kind of in
31:43the rut, as you say, to get married.
31:45Getting that. That's why I got married.
31:47Married for sex was the reason you got
31:49married.
31:49Yeah, that's what I didn't know what was
31:50happening. I knew there was something
31:51happening, but no one would tell me. So,
31:53I had to find out. You know, I didn't
31:54have books like you guys, Playboys and
31:56stuff in them days.
31:57I had to find out for myself.
31:58Why do you think us guys are all
31:59playboys? We keep
32:00Oh, man. I didn't say you would play
32:02boy. I was talking about Playboy
32:03magazine type thoughts.
32:04Okay. Okay. Okay.
32:08You had a son by that marriage, didn't
32:10you?
32:10Uh, yeah. I got a kid somewhere.
32:12Mhm. You think about him?
32:14Uh, not as about as much as my father
32:17did me.
32:18Mhm. So, two wrongs make a right in
32:20Charles.
32:20No, I didn't say there's anything wrong
32:21with way my dad's been taking care of
32:23me. He lets me live. I'm alive.
32:27M
32:28I remember you saying or being quoted in
32:31the courtroom in Los Angeles as saying,
32:35"The children who came at you with
32:36knives are your children."
32:39Yeah. I didn't raise them. You raised
32:40them.
32:42You are the ones who kicked them out.
32:45You are responsible for what they've
32:46done.
32:48That's right.
32:49Just as much as I am.
32:50Mhm.
32:52So you in my mind were criticizing
32:55society for kicking their children out
32:59and yet I've just seen you sit here and
33:01say, "Yeah, I got a kid somewhere."
33:04How can you criticize other people for
33:06kicking their kids out and you did the
33:07same thing?
33:08Difference. Difference. Many levels
33:09difference. See, my old lady left me and
33:12run off with a truck driver. She said,
33:14"Let's steal a car and go to
33:15California." And I said, "Man, I ain't
33:18going to steal a car and go to
33:19California and go back to jail." She
33:20says, "We won't get caught." We didn't
33:23get caught. Just I got caught. She
33:25didn't get caught. So then she had a kid
33:28and then some truck driver came along
33:29and I was a green kid and I didn't know
33:31what I was doing, you know. So she said,
33:33"You know, I got a ride from you. I'll
33:34see you later." She took off and got
33:36married to somebody else. You know,
33:39she's a good girl.
33:40And besides the son that you had in your
33:42marriage, you've got what? Four other
33:43children somewhere. I don't uh uh think
33:46I've been uh uh
33:49uh responsible for as much as you people
33:51want to lay on me.
33:52Well, how many children do you have,
33:53Charles?
33:54How many children do I have? Uh I don't
33:56know. Uh I have lots of children, man.
33:59Uh in fact, sometimes I even think
34:02you're a child.
34:03But you just said you don't have any
34:05children. You don't have any family in
34:07the context of the ranch. I'm talking
34:09about
34:10children that are your natural children.
34:14Children that are my natural ego.
34:16No, children.
34:17Oh, children. I would divide one child
34:20from the other. And
34:21All right. Somewhere out there
34:22somewhere, there's at least one son that
34:23we know of. That's your child who's
34:25probably about 25 or 26 years old right
34:27now. Yeah. Look in that camera. What do
34:29you say to that kid? What do you say to
34:30your son out there watching his old man
34:32on television? Maybe the first time he's
34:34ever seen his old man with his face all
34:36carved up and his eyes glowing. You talk
34:37to that kid. What are you going to say
34:39to him?
34:41You got to catch it on your own, boy.
34:44Train's hard. The road's rough.
34:48And that's it.
34:51It's all I knew. It's all anyone ever
34:52told me.
34:53All right.
34:59And you want to hear something?
35:00Yeah.
35:01He'll do it better than me.
35:03Do what?
35:04Whatever he does, he'll do it a little
35:06better. Kids do, don't they?
35:09Sometimes.
35:10Yeah. That's what makes him such a cast.
35:12They always seem to get through.
35:14There was a story about a celebrity hit.
35:16Did you ever a kid once?
35:18Absolutely.
35:19Still am in many ways, but not not not
35:21your way.
35:22Oh, my way. I don't know what my way is.
35:25Everybody keeps telling me I got all
35:26these things. I read the other day where
35:28I had magical powers and I told
35:30everybody in the chapel, I said, "Zap,
35:31zap, zap, zap." I said, "Where's my
35:33magical powers?" Well, you can't read.
35:36You can't believe what you read in the
35:37press. I ain't got no magical powers,
35:39mystical trips and all that kind of
35:41crap.
35:45Yeah, it's kind of silly.
35:47Yeah, I got witches and devils and one
35:50guy come up and said, "I I heard you
35:52said you were Jesus." I said, "Uh, no,
35:55man. I ain't said nothing." He said,
35:56"I'm glad." He said, "I'm damn glad." I
35:58said, "Why?" He said, "I know you ain't
36:00here." I said, "How do you know?" He
36:02said, "Cuz I am."
36:05I said, "Okay,
36:08but I mean, you know, I've been in the
36:09nut ward for 10 years, so you can't
36:11expect me to uh to rationally take this
36:13thing serious."
36:16Don't you think you belong in the nut
36:18ward?
36:19Well, it's all right. I could be
36:20I mean, but don't you belong there?
36:22Belong belong where I'm allowed to go,
36:24man. Like, uh, you know,
36:27um, I belong.
36:28Let me let me let me nail down one one
36:30other real simple one. Listen to how
36:32simple this is, Charles. There was a
36:34story in the media back when the trial
36:36was going on that Charles Manson had a
36:39celebrity hit list. I don't know who was
36:42on it. Maybe there never was such a
36:44list. But was there a list of people,
36:47famous people that you thought about
36:50harassing,
36:52bothering?
36:53If I wanted to harass them, I just
36:54wouldn't watch their TV show.
37:07Talk to me about your life in prison in
37:08terms of your being in isolation. You
37:10are not on what is called the main line.
37:12You don't you're not with the prison
37:13population here. How do you feel about
37:15that?
37:16Uh do I feel about it?
37:20I don't feel about it.
37:23Would you rather not be in isolation?
37:25Oh, I've been trying to get on the main
37:26line. I've been trying to get to the
37:27prison for the last 13 years. Why?
37:30Why?
37:32Walk around, play some handball, play a
37:34little guitar. Uh, do my number, do my
37:37time like any convict does, like I've
37:39always done, like my mind has been set
37:42to do, like my, uh, past lives have been
37:46in jail, doing time in jail. In fact,
37:51when I got out, I just got outside and
37:53sat down. I wasn't going nowhere. I gave
37:55up. See,
37:58if you were on the main line,
38:01wouldn't you be exposed to some dangers?
38:03Come on, man. If you're thinking
38:04exposure to danger, then that danger
38:06you're thinking is coming around you.
38:08Well, look what happened to James Ray.
38:09You heard about that, didn't you?
38:10James Earl Ray's got his problems. I got
38:12mine.
38:13But you heard what happened to him. Have
38:14you heard? He got stuck.
38:16Yeah. 22.
38:17People died in India, too.
38:18Got stuck.
38:19And some other people died in Hawaii.
38:21You wouldn't be staring all over.
38:22All right. You wouldn't be frightened or
38:24afraid then of the uh of the uh prison
38:26population trying to make a hit on you.
38:28Man, I been staying alive in prison this
38:31long
38:34without no help.
38:37What is sward?
38:38It's a nut warden.
38:40What goes on in there?
38:42Uh whatever goes on in there,
38:47you'd have to ask the people responsible
38:49for that. Well, do they do things to you
38:51in there?
38:52Do they do things to me?
38:54Mhm.
38:55Uh, that depends.
38:57They give you medication here?
38:58Yeah, they give you medication here.
39:08You on medication now?
39:09No.
39:11No. It took me about few years to get
39:13off of medication.
39:15The medication has toned me down quite a
39:17bit.
39:24whole lot.
39:27That's the reason I like the desert.
39:29When I get out in the desert, then I can
39:31let it out and say if I see within 50
39:33miles, they will know something. Yeah. I
39:36used to love that desert
39:40out in the woods and things. I didn't
39:41know you could get out in the woods 30
39:43years. How do you feel about spending
39:46the rest of your life in prison?
39:49Well, we're all our own prisons. We each
39:52are our own wardens and we do our own
39:54times. We get stuck in our own little
39:56trips and we kind of judge ourselves the
39:58way we do.
40:00You know, uh I can't judge nobody else.
40:03The best thing I could do is try to
40:05judge myself and live with that. See,
40:07what other people do is not really my
40:10affair unless they approach me with it
40:14and want me to do something about it. Uh
40:17then I'll uh
40:19take into consideration what has to be
40:21done. But other than that, I just uh try
40:23to do my number and do my time,
40:26get out on the main line, play some
40:27tennis, walk around, make the child a
40:29little better, you know, and then
40:32there's possibility the preacher could
40:33teach me something because the preacher,
40:36the reverend is is quite a guy. And I'm
40:39finding that got two, three doctors here
40:41got a lot of sense. I mean, as far as
40:44I'm concerned, they got a lot of sense
40:45in my world, you know, and I've tried to
40:48shake two or three of them, but they
40:49they're pretty smart. And uh then they
40:51got some uh pretty good inmates here
40:54trying to get out, work their lives into
40:56a decent sort of way. Uh trying to
40:59promote harmony, pull ourselves
41:01together, be right, do right, and have
41:06the understanding of what it is
41:10in a congenial form for world peace.
41:14There's a lot of people working for
41:15world peace.
41:16Let's assume that one day you were
41:18parrolled. Let's just unrove. Let's just
41:22make believe. Do you ever think you will
41:23be?
41:24Yeah. Do I ever think I will be?
41:27Well, I never been parrolled before.
41:30I went up to the board and they never
41:32would. They said I was incorraible.
41:35And not only was I incorable, but that
41:38I'd never grow up. And I kind of agreed
41:41with them. I had a war.
41:43Well, if I mean, let's just play make
41:44believe here for a second. Let's make
41:46believe. Let's let's make believe you're
41:48getting out tomorrow.
41:49Tomorrow?
41:50Okay.
41:51And tomorrow creeps this petty face.
41:53Yeah.
41:53Would you go after anybody, Charles?
41:55After anybody?
41:56Do you feel Let me let me try another
41:58way. Do you feel Do you Do you feel you
42:00have any scores to settle with anybody
42:02on the outside?
42:03What do you think?
42:05Do I have any scores out there?
42:08And we're making believe, right? Mhm.
42:10Well, I'll tell you, buddy.
42:18[Music]
42:26Well,
42:28I don't rightly know.
42:31I'm stupid to the point to where I'm not
42:35really sure.
42:36And if you'll ask the question again,
42:39maybe the answer will come to you.
42:43What was it again?
42:44If you got out tomorrow, do you have any
42:46scores to settle on the outside?
42:48Scores? You mean people that have done
42:50me wrong?
42:50Well, you feel you've done you wrong.
42:52Oh, that feel that I've done them wrong.
42:54No. Feel that they've done you wrong
42:56that you feel have done you wrong?
42:58Oh, well, most people do themselves
43:01wrong.
43:01But would you want to go would you want
43:02to go get anybody?
43:04No.
43:04If you got out No.
43:05No. They push See what they do?
43:08See, they take all that bad and they
43:09push it off on each other. I told the
43:12dude, "You're doing this to yourself,
43:13man. You know, I've been sitting in in
43:16there." In other words, I'm in the cell,
43:18right? And he let me out and I walk
43:20around. The guy says, "If you don't do
43:21this, we're going to lock you back up."
43:22I said, "Okay, I I don't care anyway."
43:25I didn't gave up that thought. Prison's
43:27in your mind, man. Like, you know, okay,
43:29you sit in the cell. And the guy said,
43:30"You're in prison." I said, "No, I'm
43:32just here."
43:33He said, "What are you doing?" Said,
43:34"I'm just sitting here waiting for these
43:35uh people to get done doing what they're
43:37doing so I could get out."
43:38Do you have a television set? Do you
43:39watch television? Yeah, I I used to
43:41watch it a little bit, but it kind of
43:42looks uh I don't really like it that
43:44much.
43:44Okay. Well, what about newspapers? Do
43:46you get newspapers?
43:47No, I don't bother with those. I know
43:48that they're they're jive in there.
43:50All right. What? Radio. Listen to the
43:51radio.
43:52I listen to Hearts and Space program.
43:54I like that. And the rest of it just
43:56like a bunch of devel There's no uh
43:59What about your music at one time?
44:00I get some classical music on the 98
44:02station that's saying something.
44:04Okay. But what about your own music? I
44:06remember reading that you at one time
44:07had a recording stint at at a studio in
44:10Hollywood and that you liked guitar and
44:12you you wrote music or sang music. Do
44:14you still do that?
44:14Yeah. Yeah, I do that. Yeah, I do that.
44:19But, uh, the way I do it ain't the same
44:23way you guys do it. And the way I do it
44:26scares you guys. So, I didn't want to
44:29scare you guys out of the neighborhood
44:30right away.
44:32So, I just took a can and started
44:34banging on it, you know.
44:36But we used to have some cosmic
44:37gatherings back in the mountains that
44:39would probably shake a a Mormon
44:41tabernacle choir's ear eard drums.
44:46You said uh the kind of music you play
44:49scares people.
44:51Why shouldn't people
44:53be scared by you? There's only one
44:56person you can be scared of, and that's
44:57yourself.
45:00Afraid
45:03of what? Losing your bank account.
45:05Afraid of your wife going uh away. You
45:09have all those things. I'm not afraid of
45:11losing my watch or someone taking my
45:13money or robbing me. I went down to
45:15Mexico in the 50s and down where the
45:17Yakis was. And they said, "Man, you
45:18don't go down where the Yankees are." I
45:20said, he said, "They're terrible." I
45:22said, "Why?" He said, "Well, they don't
45:24like people like you." I says, "Well,
45:27they didn't say anything."
45:27Yeah. But I asked the question in the
45:29context that will you believe it or not,
45:31there are a lot of people on the outside
45:34that think about the possibility of you
45:36coming out of here and they're genuinely
45:38scared of me.
45:38Oh boy, I might just just make dust
45:42everything. Terrible. One little guy.
45:44Terrible.
45:46Boy, how insecure are we as human
45:48beings? Put all our fear on one little
45:50guy. Afraid to let him out. He might
45:52break all the toys.
45:55Why do you say little guy?
45:58Because I'm not the guy you trying to
46:00make out of me. That's not me. That's
46:03some guy in somebody's imagination that
46:05wanted to make a couple hundred million
46:06dollars for himself. He got rich. He had
46:09a good game going. He had a better game
46:11going than I did. But he had a good
46:13mother to help him. She helped him in a
46:15nice game. I was kind of over on the
46:16sideline. See, I had to get around that
46:18game and look over the tracks.
46:19Okay. Now, here we go on mother again
46:21for a second. You said he had a nice
46:23mother to help him. Does that mean you
46:25did not have a nice mother to help you?
46:26Oh, well, I imagine I got a whole lot of
46:28nice mothers who would help me
46:32if I would help them. You know, how much
46:34would you help yourself?
46:36When I asked you why you got married,
46:38you said for sex.
46:42Uh,
46:42that's when I was 20 years old.
46:43Yeah.
46:45What kind This is funny. What kind of
46:47sex life is there for Charles in this
46:49prison?
46:50Well, I a bit now and then.
46:52Mhm.
46:54I try to hide it, not to embarrass other
46:57people, but I've been doing it ever
46:59since I was 10. I get to thinking here
47:01I'm an old man sitting in the cell.
47:04That's the damnest thing I ever seen.
47:05You know, it looks like uh I grow up,
47:08but I really don't know how yet. I'm
47:10learning
47:12teaching you how to grow up.
47:13Do you miss women?
47:14Certainly. My goodness. Yeah. Damn
47:17right. Yeah.
47:19What do you think of women?
47:21Oh, I like them. Yeah, they're nice.
47:23They're put together well and everything
47:25and they're soft and spongy. Yeah,
47:26they're nice. As long as they keep their
47:29mouth shut and do what they're supposed
47:30to do.
47:31Why do you say that?
47:33Cuz that's what a woman's supposed to
47:34do.
47:34Keep her mouth shut and do what she's
47:36supposed to do.
47:36Sure.
47:37Who taught you that?
47:39Well, I don't want to snitch it on me.
47:44New York for a couple of seconds, but we
47:45shall continue the interview with
47:46Charles Manson at the California prison
47:48facility in Bakavville in just a couple
47:50of moments. Here there is a man who's uh
47:52who's uh uh considered by prison
47:54authorities to be Charles Manson's
47:56closest friend in this world. His name
47:58is New Emmens and he has spent the last
48:00year researching and beginning to write
48:02the autobiography of Charles Manson
48:04which will be called Manson by Manson.
48:06More than anyone else, Emmens knows when
48:08Manson is telling the truth and when
48:09he's lying. Uh he uh is back tonight
48:12with us here in New York and he's been
48:14watching the interview with us and I
48:15want to get his views on what we've seen
48:16so far before we continue with Charles
48:18Manson. So, we'll continue with Mr.
48:20Emmens from New York in a couple of
48:21seconds, then go back to Bakavville
48:23right after this for the NBC television
48:24stations.
48:32Manson in the California prison shortly.
48:33But here in New York is a gentleman who,
48:35in the words of some authorities knows
48:36Charles Manson better than most people.
48:38His name is New Emmens who went to see
48:40Manson about writing a book a year ago
48:42and they've spent over 300 hours since.
48:44We hired New Emmens as a consultant for
48:46tonight's program and he's here this
48:48evening to discuss the interview and
48:50help us understand what is going on in
48:51the mind of Charles Manson. Before that,
48:53Mr. Emmens, could you just briefly trace
48:55your relationship with Charles Manson?
48:57Where did you meet him and how did you
48:58develop a relationship with him?
49:00Well, I've had a similar childhood as
49:03Manson, only unlike him with nobody, I
49:05did have people. So, I met Matson in
49:08jail in the U federal
49:11prison, I guess, uh at Terminal Island
49:14in uh middle 56 or so. And um so anyway,
49:20not that we lined up together, but I was
49:23a few years older than he, but I did
49:25know him and smaller. And again, we were
49:28both repeats. So then I ran into him
49:30again in McNeel Island years later, 59 I
49:34guess.
49:35And I um came home in ' 63 and since
49:38have straightened out my life and uh
49:41after the family was raised in whatever
49:43I began a writing career mostly
49:45journalistic stuff, sports and newspaper
49:48items.
49:48How can we tell when Charles Manson is
49:51conning and when he's on track? I was
49:53mystified by this man as you know. Thank
49:55you.
49:56Well, I um
49:59and
50:01prior to the interview, I think that he
50:03felt that the questioning line was going
50:05to be a little bit different. And I have
50:07a rapport with Manson where we talk
50:10almost as normal as you and I are
50:12talking right now.
50:14And I think when Manson is really unsure
50:17of himself, uneasy, he performs. And
50:20then also, but as far as conning, he
50:23does con. He pulls your leg to a certain
50:26extent, but uh if you've noticed, he did
50:31not lie. He evaded when he did not want
50:33to answer. So that's a con or a joke in
50:37a way. He plays games with people.
50:39Have you and he discussed this
50:40evasiveness that uh surfaces in him from
50:43time to time. And is he more level when
50:45you're talking privately without cameras
50:46on than he was during this?
50:49Oh, very definitely. You got to remember
50:51I we say a year or you said a year but
50:54uh it began in August of 1979 when I
50:58first began and renewed our acquaintance
51:00and at first he denied me. The book
51:02wasn't his ideal at all. He uh
51:07I he resents being a victim of as he
51:10told you in the interview in several
51:12places that uh he didn't do the things
51:15and it didn't come down as said. I don't
51:17think in essence Manson denies that he's
51:20guilty of things and he knows that he
51:23belongs in jail but the way it was
51:26convicted and came down and in his mind
51:30he has been served in injustice himself.
51:33Mhm.
51:34But uh we have a very rational
51:37relationship. I mean there are days when
51:40I don't gather any material but I accept
51:44that and come back again another day.
51:47Have you gotten him to the point where
51:48he has uh admitted or discussed any
51:52complicity or planning in the deaths of
51:55the people in Southern California
51:57or does he shy away from it as he did
51:59here when we got into this lobby? Well,
52:01there again he in this interview he uh
52:05says he referred to you as a prosecuting
52:07attorney. I mean in that in his thought
52:09well uh some of the questioning line was
52:11very similar to a prosecute and
52:13attorney's line. So he rebelled against
52:16it immediately and uh we have our
52:21moments of rebellion but yes but it's
52:24his version and it is contradictory to
52:26helter skelter I mean not the deaths I
52:29mean they're there for everybody to see
52:31and to know that it happened. However,
52:35uh there are many many circumstances
52:38that uh
52:40sort of destroys the
52:44motive and the image and everything that
52:46previous books have put out about him.
52:49And if I might go on, well, that's where
52:53my book is motivated. It isn't in
52:55defense of Manson. Uh I say not in
52:58defense. I think in the first portion of
53:00it, I do reach a certain amount of
53:02sympathy just illustrating a childhood
53:05and how he was unlike me. I had parents
53:09that cared and I had a trade and
53:12probably a better understanding. I don't
53:14say that the people in jail raised me
53:16like he does and he is a victim of that.
53:19But uh
53:21I lost my thought. You'll have to come
53:23back to me.
53:24No, no. you you you were saying that the
53:25that your book is not intended to be a
53:27defense of Manson or apologia for him,
53:29but that you understand him in terms of
53:32his upbringing without a family and
53:33you're sympathetic towards that, but
53:34then I think probably you part company
53:36as as his story develops.
53:38Right. Thank you. And anyway, well, he
53:40uh by his own admission, he doesn't want
53:43to be and he himself has become a
53:46considerable victim of the images. And
53:48you also said on your Wednesday night uh
53:52oh mention of the show for Friday night
53:55that uh you didn't find a mystic person
53:59or someone with powers.
54:02Well, the book brings that out very
54:04clearly, too. And I and Manson also
54:07resents those earlier publications and
54:10uh he feels and I feel also and I bring
54:14it out of my book that more injustice
54:17has been done because of similar books
54:19that particular book that we mentioned
54:22Helter Skelter has done more to create
54:25the image and the followers and
54:27everything that still persists
54:28except that Helter Skelter just didn't
54:30come out of the blue. Vincent Bulliosce
54:32didn't make that up out of whole claw. I
54:34mean, there was a lot of conversation
54:36that was tracked among the people
54:37involved in those killings where that
54:38thing kept coming out over and over
54:40again.
54:41And none of it came out until Susan
54:43Atkins made her first confession and
54:46then once heard it's almost as power as
54:49Manson himself projects power of
54:51suggestion and so on. We have heard it
54:54before and this is our best way out. And
54:57do you think there's anything today new
54:59like a Manson cult? Does he get letters
55:01to your knowledge from people who see
55:03him as a cult leader or somebody that
55:05they would like to pattern themselves
55:06after
55:07only after reading the books that have
55:09been written previously because and he
55:12does get letters the institution will
55:14verify it and I've been recipient of
55:16letters uh when I first my first media
55:19in
55:21release on Manson was uh I guess March
55:24of 81 and the paper I worked for the
55:28Yukaya Journal will it uh naturally you
55:30don't give your own address but I was a
55:33recipient of mail wanting to know how
55:35they could get in touch with Manson and
55:37so on and other people's other than the
55:40ones I got uh right to the institution.
55:43Have you ever gotten a letter from a
55:45purported Manson followers saying your
55:47book better be fair to him or else any
55:48threat?
55:49It's gone further than that. Uh one
55:51particular letter to the Yukaya Journal
55:54was from Hawaii. So I uh answered it.
55:57What's your interest? What's your
55:58concern? And I ended up meeting the
56:00party that wrote the letter and uh well
56:03where you at on this Manson thing and so
56:05on and I a little pride or a little I
56:09won't say pride but a little vanity and
56:11my writing and a potential book coming
56:14up. I mentioned where I was at and what
56:16I was trying to project. She says you're
56:18the luckiest son I've become in the
56:19world cuz I was she was prepared to
56:22waste me if I was going to be more
56:24detrimental to Manson than the previous
56:26books had been. So, it is an easy row
56:29and I uh I'm doing it for Manson as well
56:33as for myself and uh well, there's a lot
56:38of things because he says he's where he
56:42belongs in a sense.
56:43Do you think he is?
56:45Yes, I do think he is at this point
56:46because there's he's probably bitter
56:50today than he was in ' 69 through the
56:52things that he's gone through.
56:54Bill Lemons, thank you for being here in
56:55New York tonight. We're going back to
56:56Vakavville, California, and more with
56:58Charles Manson right after these
56:59announcements.
57:11[Music]
57:15He is,
57:16you know, you were sentenced to the gas
57:17chamber and then they modified the death
57:19penalty. Were you happy when that was
57:21done?
57:22Was I happy when what was done? When you
57:24found out that you weren't going to the
57:25gas chamber,
57:26you talking about dying.
57:29Now it gets me nervous.
57:30Why
57:31did you have any thoughts about
57:32something?
57:33Was you want to go anywhere?
57:39Were you happy when you found out you
57:40weren't going to go to the gas chamber,
57:41Charles?
57:43Uh, I knew I wasn't going to go to the
57:44gas chamber cuz I hadn't done anything
57:46wrong.
57:50You scared to die?
57:54Sometimes I feel I'm scared to live.
57:57Living is what scares me. Dying is easy.
58:02Getting up every day and going through
58:04this again and again is hard.
58:08So I'm carrying a heavenly thought. See,
58:10thought I'm carrying is very heavy.
58:14Like I'm on a football team and
58:16everybody's
58:19and I'm a little guy. I don't have no I
58:21don't have no home team. You got all the
58:24home. I got one uh one cheerleader
58:29or one uh uh coach.
58:32See, you got me at a disadvantage
58:34because I'm on your ground. See?
58:38So, and this is your street. I reckon
58:41you got the cameras and the money and
58:43the things,
58:48but you can believe me that Bulliosis
58:51had you all on a rib and all them guys
58:54that sold you most of that stuff sold
58:56you a bunch of things that weren't uh
58:59weren't real.
59:01Not to me.
59:03We used to have games we would play on
59:05the movie set. We would take on
59:07different people. I'd be riff raff
59:09rackus and Steve would be uh John Jones
59:13just come in from Minneapolis and
59:15driving the truck and we just take other
59:18people and play act other people and
59:20then we lost track of who we were
59:25and it went off into other dimensions
59:27and levels of thought and understanding
59:29and comprehension that were beyond most
59:32people's minds functions computers data
59:38So, um,
59:41all I did was watch and learn everything
59:43I could from everybody I ever met. Then
59:46when I got out of prison, I just walked
59:48around.
59:50I didn't tell nobody to do nothing.
59:53I said, do what you want to do to do.
59:56Don't tell me what to do. I don't like
59:58people telling me what to do. They just
59:59come from a place where they told me
1:00:00what to do all my life, you know. I want
1:00:02to find out what to do for myself, you
1:00:04know. I never did.
1:00:08Not yet.
1:00:11But I was going to take a trade one of
1:00:12these days. Maybe learn to be a welder
1:00:14or something.
1:00:21till I can get to the front gate anyway
1:00:39or people were killed. How did you get
1:00:42involved in that drama? Well, I was born
1:00:48illegitimately. That put me on the other
1:00:50side of the law. I've been an outlaw
1:00:53ever since I was born. I went to reform
1:00:56school when I was about 10 and I learned
1:00:59to box and cry and I learned to do all
1:01:02the things that you do in reform school.
1:01:04Then I went to uh I escaped there a
1:01:07bunch of times and I went to prison and
1:01:08I learned everything that you do in
1:01:10prison and I talked to all the guys and
1:01:12asked him everything they knew and they
1:01:14told me all the things they knew. And
1:01:16then I went to the end of it and then
1:01:18the old man would be ready to die. And
1:01:20he'd say, "Well, son, sincerity is the
1:01:22best gimmick. Remember that." And I
1:01:24said, "All right, be sincere. That's
1:01:25that'll win it." He said, "That's it.
1:01:27Sincerity and honesty." He said, "It'll
1:01:28do it. It'll trick him every time." I
1:01:30said, "Well, sincere and honesty. I
1:01:32never tried that. I tried everything
1:01:34else but I'll try sincere and honesty.
1:01:37So then I looked in the book and it said
1:01:39the wages of sin is death. Now I figured
1:01:42well I don't want to die. So maybe I
1:01:44have been sinful here. Maybe I am wrong.
1:01:47Maybe I'll take a look at my life and
1:01:48say well I'm going to change and start
1:01:50all over you know and I know I go to God
1:01:53and I say hey man you going to forgive
1:01:55me? And he going to say what do you do?
1:01:56You forgive you? I mean what do you come
1:01:59to me for? Forgive yourself man. Don't
1:02:01be bothering me. you know, and I think,
1:02:03well, he must be a big mighty God, man.
1:02:05He just, you know, he ain't got time.
1:02:06You got to make appointment or
1:02:08something, you know. So, I see the whole
1:02:10aspect of the whole trip for children to
1:02:12play, you know. Then I get stuck in the
1:02:16game of playing the goat here or the
1:02:18lamb or the or the some other trip. I
1:02:20was a teddy bear and then I was a a
1:02:23goofball and whatever. And uh
1:02:29what is the real one? Where is the real
1:02:31one? I don't know where the real one is.
1:02:33He's in a nut ward somewhere.
1:02:38The real Charles Manson, hardly the
1:02:40glowering, sinister, and assertive
1:02:42mastermind that was pictured of his life
1:02:44before and after the Tate Labian
1:02:46killings in Los Angeles. The real
1:02:48Charles Manson appears to be confused
1:02:50and frightened. Confused, if you recall
1:02:52his admonition that we look at ourselves
1:02:54to better understand him. Yet each time
1:02:57I pressed him on details about the
1:02:58murders, Manson could not even look at
1:03:00himself, nor his relationships with his
1:03:03mother, his wife, and his son. And he's
1:03:06frightened. During our conversation, you
1:03:08recall Manson said, "I'm living, aren't
1:03:10I? They let me live, didn't they?"
1:03:12Followed by that little nervous laugh.
1:03:14The man does not want to die. I think
1:03:16he's frightened by death, and I think
1:03:18that he is as scared of us as we are of
1:03:20him. I get the feeling he'll be quite
1:03:22content to spend the rest of his life
1:03:24playing mind games in the jail house.
1:03:26And I also believe that Charles Manson
1:03:28knows exactly what he's done. A word
1:03:31about what you might think was my
1:03:33belligerance with Manson. I lived in Los
1:03:35Angeles all during his trial. I still
1:03:37live there from time to time in a quiet
1:03:39neighborhood just across the canyon from
1:03:41where Sharon Tate and the others were
1:03:42murdered. At work by day, I broadcast
1:03:45the 6:00 news in Los Angeles. The whole
1:03:47story of the trial, the shaved heads,
1:03:49the car foreheads, the heranges and
1:03:51threats in the courtroom. And by night,
1:03:53I tried to assure my young daughter that
1:03:55yes, even though the murder house was
1:03:57close by, Charles Manson and company
1:03:59were under lock and key and there would
1:04:00be no creepy crawlers in the night. So
1:04:03it was that Manson I was listening to
1:04:05and not the one who now sits alone in a
1:04:07far away prison where, barring a most
1:04:10perverse miracle, he will spend the rest
1:04:12of his life. Thank you for watching and
1:04:15good night everybody.

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