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The Strange Psychology of Russell Williams — Transcript

by Matt Orchard - Crime and Society · 12,059 words · 1,867 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:03So, what am I doing, Russ? I put my best
0:06foot forward here for you, but
0:09I really have I don't I don't know what
0:11else to do to to m make you understand
0:14the impact of what's happening here.
0:17[Music]
0:19Do we talk?
0:24I want to um
0:29minimize the impact on my wife. So do I.
0:36So how do we do that? Well, we start by
0:40telling the truth.
0:47It's okay. Okay.
0:51So where is she?
1:01[Music]
1:05Get him out. If you're a fan of true
1:07crime, there's a very good chance you've
1:10seen the interrogation of Colonel
1:11Russell Williams before. And there's a
1:14couple of reasons for that. One is that
1:16it's the best. A bold statement, but a
1:19rather unimpeachable one as far as this
1:21channel is concerned. A fair few
1:24interrogations have interesting moments
1:26within them, but somewhere in the range
1:28of 80% of their contents is about as
1:31exciting as watching paint dry. The
1:33albeit significantly redacted 2 and a
1:36halfhour interrogation of Colonel
1:38Williams, however, is gripping in one
1:40way or another for just about its entire
1:43duration, including periods of sometimes
1:45more than a minute where he just sits in
1:48his chair breathing and thinking,
1:50probably as intensely as he ever has in
1:53his entire life. The second reason the
1:56footage is of such high profile is that
1:58Williams is among the most horrifying
2:00and depraved criminals in Canada's
2:03recent history. Though technically not a
2:06serial killer as he murdered two people,
2:08whereas most law enforcement
2:10organizations require a body count of
2:12three to qualify for that specific
2:14designation. This really is just a
2:17matter of semantics as the violent
2:19pattern he was rapidly developing makes
2:21it all but certain he would have killed
2:23again had he not been caught when he
2:25was. So serial killer is what this video
2:28will be classifying him as. More
2:30significant than body count. However,
2:32the want and cruelty of his crimes,
2:35juxtaposed with his exceptionally high
2:37standing in society and the spotless
2:40personal history that earned him said
2:42standing is what truly edged Williams
2:44into the collective psyche of a nation
2:47and crime watchers across the world.
2:49Which brings us to a central question of
2:52this video. Why do you think these
2:54things happen?
3:00Huh?
3:02Have you spent much time thinking about
3:04that? About why? Yeah.
3:08Yeah.
3:13But I don't know the answers
3:20and I'm pretty sure the answers don't
3:22matter. When it comes to the fate of
3:24Russell Williams and much more
3:27importantly his victims, it's true that
3:29the answers as to why he did the things
3:31he did don't matter. But that doesn't
3:34change it from being a fascinating
3:36question. Because beyond his
3:38exceptionally high standing, there are
3:40several ways in which he does not fit
3:42the mold of a typical serial killer. To
3:45give you an idea of what we mean and to
3:47fill in those of you who haven't
3:49happened to stumble upon today's subject
3:51before, we'll give you a brief primer on
3:54the background and criminal career of
3:56Colonel Russell Williams.
3:59He was born in England in 1963 to
4:02parents Christine and Cedric Williams,
4:04who immigrated to Canada with Russell
4:06and his younger brother Harvey in 1968.
4:09Not long after resettling, Christine and
4:12Cedric divorced under circumstances that
4:14could be described as less than
4:16amicable, but not so much so that they
4:18really warrant delving into in great
4:20detail. Aside from being a child of
4:23divorce at the age of six, Russell's
4:25upbringing can be fairly described as
4:27stable. His mother remarried to a man
4:29named Jerry Sofka, who he had, by all
4:32accounts, a healthy relationship with
4:34while also remaining close to his
4:36biological father. No red flags or
4:39developmental issues were ever noted
4:41during his childhood. When he reached
4:43adulthood, Williams studied economics
4:46and political science at the University
4:48of Toronto Scar Bro, earning a bachelor
4:51of arts. At university, Williams
4:54exhibited a few noteworthy personality
4:56traits. One that would prove to be
4:58significant to his ultimate career path
5:00as a military man was a need for order
5:03and tidiness so chronic that it could be
5:05argued to fall on the spectrum of
5:07obsessive compulsive disorders. Setting
5:10up and rigorously enforcing a roster of
5:12chores for him and his roommates to
5:14ensure communal living spaces stayed in
5:17immaculate condition at all times. In
5:20contrast to this stuffy quality,
5:22however, Williams also had a mischievous
5:24streak. He was a big fan of pranks, like
5:27jumping out of a roommate's closet to
5:29scare them, for instance. Sometimes
5:32lying in weight for hours in order to
5:34execute the gag. A level of discipline
5:36that seemed quirky at the time, but will
5:39become haunting in light of the modus
5:41operandi he will go on to develop later
5:43in life. In terms of dating, he had one
5:46known girlfriend in college who he was
5:48said to be enamored with, but some
5:50accounts suggest the level of affection
5:52in the relationship was not exactly
5:54reciprocal, and the woman in question
5:56broke up with Williams after a
5:58relatively short period of courtship.
6:01Friends recall him taking it very hard.
6:03Make of that what you will, but
6:05ultimately no violence or crimes of any
6:08sort can be attributed to Williams
6:10during his college years. He joined the
6:12Canadian Armed Forces in 1987 at the age
6:15of 24. Williams was never placed in a
6:18role that had him see combat, so
6:20post-traumatic stress won't be entering
6:22the equation at any point. In 1991, he
6:25married Mary Elizabeth Haramman, the
6:27second woman he is known to have ever
6:29had a romantic relationship with. The
6:32couple were known to be very private,
6:34but nothing has ever come to light to
6:36suggest their marriage was anything less
6:37than stable. They had no children, but
6:40were known to express a degree of
6:42affection toward their cat, Curio, that
6:44resembled the sort of love a parent has
6:46for their child. Meanwhile, the
6:49combination of William's natural
6:51intelligence and extremely disciplined
6:53and regimented personality saw him rise
6:56ranks in the Canadian armed forces at
6:58breakneck speed. At 27, he was a well-
7:01reggarded captain and skilled pilot. So
7:04much so that he was made responsible for
7:06flying dignitaries including the prime
7:08minister of Canada and the Queen of
7:10England. By 1999, he was promoted to
7:14major at the age of 36 and then
7:16Lieutenant Colonel in 2004 at the age of
7:1941. In 2007, at the age of 44, Williams
7:23broke into his neighbor's house while
7:25they were away and took 25 photos of
7:28himself in the room of a 12-year-old
7:30girl that depicted him naked and
7:32pleasuring himself on the girl's
7:33underwear. He took six pieces of her
7:35underwear with him, but the family did
7:37not notice any sign of an intruder.
7:40This is the first known instance of
7:42Williams ever committing any crime. By
7:462009, he was made full colonel at the
7:48age of 45 and sworn in as wing commander
7:51of Canada's busiest air force base, CFB
7:54Trenton in Trenton, Ontario. Needless to
7:57say, this was a very important and
7:59demanding position. Not demanding
8:02enough, however, to interfere with the
8:04colonel's seemingly newfound
8:06proclivities. In the time between and
8:08following his ghastly activities in his
8:11neighbor's home and his coveted
8:12promotion, Williams committed dozens of
8:15additional break-ins and underwear
8:17burglaries in the same neighborhood in
8:19the municipality of Tweed. Tweed was the
8:22location of a small cottage property
8:24owned by the Williams' serving as a
8:26secondary property in closer proximity
8:28to the military base than their main
8:31house in Orleans, Ottawa, where Russell
8:33Williams soon began committing similar
8:35nighttime break-ins as well. His targets
8:38were exclusively female with ages
8:40ranging from pre-adolescence to mid-4s.
8:43As in the first instance, his perverse
8:45heists were often so discreet that his
8:48victims did not even realize a break-in
8:50had taken place. But soon things began
8:53to escalate. On one occasion, he
8:56pleasured himself on a photo of one of
8:58his victims and left it out in plain
9:00sight. On another, he typed a message on
9:02a computer bragging about his intrusion.
9:05And on September 17th, 2009, he entered
9:09a home in Tweed while his target was
9:12inside. The 20-year-old, known only as
9:15Jane Doe, was sound asleep. Williams
9:18woke and subdued her before using
9:20pillowcases to bind her to a chair and
9:22blind her. Without going into too much
9:25detail, she was sexually assaulted for
9:27about 2 hours. Williams then told her to
9:30count aloud to 300 while he made his
9:32escape. The woman's infant daughter
9:35slept in the next room for the duration
9:37of the incident. William's next violent
9:40assault took place only two weeks later
9:42on September 30th, again in Tweed and
9:45only three doors down from his home. The
9:48victim was a 46-year-old woman named
9:50Lorie Massacott. Again, without going
9:53into too much detail, the incident was
9:55very similar to Jane Doe. Bound,
9:58blinded, assaulted, then Williams left.
10:02And less than 2 months after that on
10:04November 23rd, things escalated
10:07significantly yet again when Williams
10:09broke into the home of 37year-old
10:12Corporal Marie France Ko, a service
10:15woman stationed at the same base of
10:17which Williams was in command. Ko's
10:19residence was much further from Williams
10:21Tweed Cottage and closer to the military
10:24base than any of the previous break-ins,
10:27suggesting evading capture was beginning
10:29to instill a certain arrogance in him.
10:32This is further evidenced by the fact
10:33that Williams broke into the house
10:35before Marie France went to bed, opting
10:38to hide in the basement. Marie France
10:41wound up discovering him and a struggle
10:43ensued. Williams overpowered her and
10:46like the previous two incidents she was
10:48bound, blinded and assaulted for hours.
10:51Unlike the previous incidents, this one
10:54ended in murder with William suffocating
10:56Marie France with duct tape. He attended
10:59work on time a matter of hours later. No
11:03one observed anything unusual about the
11:05colonel's demeanor during the day. Then
11:08on January 28th, 2010, Williams broke
11:12into the home of 27-year-old Jessica
11:15Lloyd. Lloyd's ordeal was particularly
11:18harrowing with William seeing fit to
11:21transport her still bound and
11:22blindfolded to his Tweed cottage hours
11:25into the assault early in the A.M.'s. He
11:28called in sick to work that morning.
11:30Jessica Lloyd's nightmare lasted for
11:32about 19 hours before Williams killed
11:35her, striking her in the back of the
11:37head before strangling her. The
11:39disappearance of the universally liked
11:41Jessica Lloyd sent a shock wave through
11:44the community, and police rightly
11:46suspecting that the seeming abduction
11:48may be connected to the murder of Marie
11:50France Como and assaults of Jane Doe and
11:53Lorie Massacott went into overdrive
11:55trying to identify a suspect.
11:58Fortunately, they had something to work
12:00with. Lloyd's likely abductor had left
12:03tire tracks in the snow near a cornfield
12:06adjacent to her residence, and two
12:08people had spotted an SUV parked around
12:11that area the night before Jessica went
12:13missing. Police subsequently set up a
12:16roadblock near Lloyd's Belleville home
12:18on February 4th, stopping any vehicle
12:21that looked similar to the description
12:22of the SUV. and who should pull up
12:25shortly after 7:00 p.m. but the
12:28imminently respected Colonel Russell
12:30Williams heading home from work in his
12:33Nissan Pathfinder sporting exactly the
12:36make of tires they were looking for. The
12:39degree to which the colonel's status
12:40helped him evade suspicion is difficult
12:43to overstate and is perhaps best
12:45illustrated by the fact that even at
12:47this point, the officer responsible for
12:50taking Williams tire measurements,
12:52knowing who Williams was, debated with
12:54his colleagues for a moment whether it
12:56was worth their time investigating him.
12:59Fortunately, they convinced him his
13:01reservations were misguided, and
13:03Williams was immediately placed under
13:05surveillance.
13:07A few days later, on the afternoon of
13:10Sunday, February 7th, Colonel Russell
13:13Williams received a phone call from
13:15Detective Sergeant Jim Smith asking if
13:18he would be willing to pay a visit to
13:20the station downtown for an interview to
13:22assist in the investigation of Jessica
13:25Lloyd's disappearance. Having basically
13:27no choice, Williams agreed, resulting in
13:30the famous interrogation we can now look
13:33at in more depth. All right. You have to
13:37see Russ
13:39was speaking with whatever night that
13:41was was Russ as well. Oh, yeah. Took
13:44took every number I had. Yeah. Now, they
13:47were doing some pretty thorough
13:48interviews that night. Yeah, absolutely.
13:50Glad to see. Russell Williams wasn't
13:53actually glad to see the blockade,
13:55obviously. and he showed that at the
13:57time by trying to pull rank, attempting
14:00to bypass the check by telling the
14:02officers he was in a rush to get home to
14:04look after his sick child. Needless to
14:06say, when investigators discovered
14:08Williams had no children, their
14:10suspicions were raised considerably. I'm
14:13just going to move your gloves here.
14:14That's a little microphone just to make
14:15sure there's nice and clear. You ever
14:17been interviewed by the police in a in a
14:18room like this before? I have never been
14:20interviewed like this. Oh, no. When this
14:22interview was eventually played in
14:23court, Williams now infamous smirk at
14:26the camera and the arrogance that it
14:28encapsulated drew gasps from the
14:30gallery. But he is not as self assured
14:32as he is putting on. We know this
14:35because as soon as he finished his phone
14:36call with Smith, he rushed to hide two
14:39500 GB hard drives in the ceiling of his
14:42basement. The hard drives contained
14:45approximately 3,000 images and videos
14:47documenting his crimes, including those
14:50perpetrated on Marie France Como and
14:52Jessica Lloyd. In fact, his house in
14:55Orleans was brimming with similarly
14:57damning evidence that was bound to be
14:59unearthed by even the most cursory of
15:01police searches. Evidence he had
15:03absolutely no way of concealing or
15:05disposing of before making the trip
15:07downtown. So, don't let appearances fool
15:10you. Russell Williams must already be
15:12terrified. This is conceivably why he's
15:15seen chewing gum for the first hour and
15:17a half or so of the interview, as it's a
15:20relatively common mechanism for stress
15:22relief. Okay. Now, let's get this out
15:25here.
15:27I guess closest to
15:30interview by NIS for top secret
15:32clearance. Oh, yeah. All right. Well,
15:34again, Russell, I appreciate you coming
15:36in. Jim Smith's performance in this
15:38interrogation has been rightfully lorded
15:40as masterful. And that small moment was
15:43a great example of how masterful
15:45performances are often subtle. There's a
15:47bit of a tight rope he has to walk
15:49throughout this process. He doesn't want
15:52to cast himself as an adversary, as he
15:54needs to build as much rapport and trust
15:56as possible to avoid Williams clamming
15:58up, but not so much so as to set up a
16:01dynamic where the highranking colonel
16:03sees him as a peer, or worse yet, a sort
16:06of spiritual subordinate. So, when
16:08Williams makes a rather hamfisted
16:10attempt to incorporate his high standing
16:12into the conversation by casually
16:14mentioning he's been interviewed for top
16:16secret clearance, Smith is at a bit of
16:18an impass. It wouldn't be a good move to
16:20completely ignore the statement as that
16:22could be read as borderline hostile, but
16:25you certainly wouldn't want to pick up
16:26on that thread for any amount of time to
16:28build rapport as any time spent talking
16:31about William's status is liable to make
16:33him feel as if it's of any significance
16:35in this room and gives him more license
16:37to throw his weight around or otherwise
16:40be anything less than 100% cooperative.
16:43So what Smith does is acknowledge the
16:45statement but only just barely so as not
16:48to be perceived as rude with two words.
16:51Oh yeah. And then moves on to the topic
16:53at hand within 2 seconds of giving the
16:55non-engaging response. So Williams
16:58doesn't have enough space to elaborate
17:00any further on the matter.
17:02I guess closest to
17:05interview by NIS for top secret
17:07clearance. Oh yeah. All right. All
17:09right. Well, again, Russell, I
17:10appreciate coming in an investigation
17:12like this. I mean, I'm sure you can
17:13appreciate it's been big news, uh,
17:15especially down uh, Belleville Way. Um,
17:18and you know, obviously our approach to
17:20cases like this is that, uh, uh, we
17:22don't give up on somebody being alive
17:24until we get evidence that they're not.
17:26So, um, because of that, we're treating
17:28uh, Jessica's case as an e situation,
17:31obviously. Um, so we're we're fast
17:34forwarding things that we might normally
17:36take our time with. Um, and that's why
17:39we're here on a Sunday afternoon. So,
17:41uh, again, I appreciate it. Um, Smith
17:44sets a non-hostile tone for the
17:46interview, offering Williams coffee,
17:48which he accepts, though sort of
17:50interestingly opts to leave to the side
17:52for once he's done chewing his piece of
17:54gum. I have a simple rule when I talk to
17:56people. It's uh I'm sure you're the same
17:58way. I treat people everybody with
18:00respect. I don't know why I ask cuz they
18:01do the same for me. Um, so what we're
18:03going to do is we're going to start off
18:04by uh going through um what your rights
18:06are. Okay. Just like everybody else.
18:08Okay. Um, have you ever been read your
18:11rights before? I'm sure you've seen on
18:13TV a whole bunch of times, but that's
18:14usually the American version. So, I'll
18:16go over it with you briefly. Okay. We've
18:18explained how Canadians rights when it
18:20comes to being interviewed by the police
18:22work on this channel before. The short
18:24version is unlike Miranda rightites in
18:26the US, you don't actually have the
18:28right to refuse to be questioned without
18:30a lawyer, but you do have the right to
18:33consult with one who will invariably
18:35tell you not to say anything.
18:37Conventional wisdom states not talking
18:39to the police is the best play 100% of
18:42the time. With that said, if there was a
18:45case where trying to talk yourself out
18:47of trouble was the best strategy,
18:50there's an argument to be made that this
18:52is it. There's already sufficient
18:54evidence to issue a search warrant on
18:56William's house at this point. So, he's
18:58done no matter what. But he doesn't know
19:00that. Not for sure, at least. What he
19:03will know for sure is if the commander
19:05of CFB Trenton refuses to fully
19:08cooperate with an active investigation
19:10of this nature, he will immediately be
19:12subjected to a level of scrutiny that is
19:15bound to reveal him. So from William's
19:17perspective, if he is able to assuage
19:20suspicion through this conversation,
19:22even just enough to buy himself a day or
19:24two to destroy as much evidence as he
19:26can, then there could be an ever so
19:29remote chance of finding a road out of
19:31this. I want to explain to you exactly
19:33what's going on here. Okay. Um
19:37Jessica uh Lloyd is um is one of four
19:41cases that we're currently
19:42investigating. Okay. Um, and essentially
19:45what's happened is over the past uh u
19:48about four or five months
19:50um there have been four occurrences that
19:53like I said that we're looking into. Uh
19:56two of those occurrences occurred in
19:57September of 2009 um and very briefly
20:00they were up in the the tweet area. Uh
20:02they involved uh somebody entering two
20:05different women's houses um in the
20:07evening hours and uh committing sexual
20:10acts. Okay. uh in uh November of 2009, a
20:15young lady by the name of uh Marie
20:17France Como um yeah was found uh
20:21murdered in her home in Brighton. Yeah.
20:23And um we believe that there was a
20:24sexual component to that crime as well.
20:27And um then most recently we have
20:30Jessica Lloyd's disappearance. Okay. So
20:32essentially when you look at those kind
20:34of crimes we're looking at a number of
20:36different uh potential criminal charges.
20:38All right. Um, we're looking at issues
20:40uh all the way from the most serious
20:41one, which is first-degree murder, uh,
20:44kidnapping, uh, sexual assault, um,
20:46break and enter with intent to commit
20:48sexual assault, um, forcible
20:50confinement. Okay? And, uh, so what I
20:53want to make sure you understand, and
20:54this is what we've been doing with
20:55everybody we've been talking to, is that
20:57clearly when we find out who's
20:58responsible for one or all of those
21:00crimes, uh, they could be charged with
21:02one or all of those offenses. Okay?
21:04Whether it's you or whether it's anybody
21:05else, right? And that's why it's
21:07important that we uh make sure that
21:09people understand what they have to do
21:10and what they don't have to do when
21:11they're talking to us. Okay. So, as I
21:13said before, any point today uh you feel
21:16the need you want to speak to a lawyer,
21:17uh you let me know and uh we can take
21:19you to a room where you can do that in
21:20private. Okay. Okay. Um do you have your
21:23own lawyer?
21:25I have a realy lawyer, but Okay. I don't
21:27have a lawyer. All right. Um, if at any
21:30point you want to make that call and you
21:32don't know who to call, uh, we have a
21:34phone list of lawyers that are available
21:36to give you advice free of charge right
21:37over the phone. Okay. So, again, if at
21:39any point today you want to take
21:40advantage of that, you just let me know.
21:42Um, is there any reason you want to call
21:43a lawyer now? No. Okay. Um, couple other
21:47fairly simple and straightforward uh,
21:48things that you probably understand, but
21:50again, we go over them to make sure
21:52everybody's clear is that uh, you don't
21:54have to speak to me today. Okay. And the
21:57reason for that is because the law
21:58considers me to be what we refer to as a
22:00person in authority. Okay? Probably
22:02similar to what you may be considered to
22:03be on the base. Um, and because of that,
22:06I can be compelled to appear before any
22:08judge in the country basically to
22:09account for what takes place here today
22:11between you and I. Okay. Like with that
22:14just pleasant enough brush off we saw
22:16earlier, what Detective Smith did there
22:18was both subtle and masterful. What
22:21nicer way to say you're not the
22:23authority figure here I am than by
22:25pointing out that fact just to make sure
22:27the subject is fully aware of their
22:29rights and doesn't have to say anything
22:31they don't want to. So um understood
22:34these first two attacks happened uh not
22:37that far from my place in two equal the
22:39second one did. Yeah. We didn't even
22:41know the first one had happened, but uh
22:42I understand that was reasonably close
22:44as well, but the second one was uh was
22:47very close. And essentially, uh Russell,
22:49in a nutshell, that's what we wanted to
22:50uh to talk to you about. Okay. Um those
22:53four cases are of concern to us. And um
22:56you know, you've kind of almost hit the
22:58nail on the head about some of our
23:00issues that kind of uh make us want to
23:02talk to to Russell Williams. Okay. Um
23:04because essentially uh there was a a a
23:07connection um between you and uh and all
23:11four of those cases. Would you agree?
23:14Geographic. I drive past. Yes. I I would
23:18say there is a a connection. Yeah. The
23:20approach of asking Williams if he agrees
23:23the factors Smith has just gone over
23:25create a connection to him rather than
23:27simply asserting it speaks to something
23:30that makes this interrogation very
23:32different from most others. As you'll
23:33see, the broader interrogation method
23:36that Smith is largely drawing from in
23:38his approach is not actually an
23:40interrogation method at all. It's called
23:43motivational interviewing, a school of
23:46counseling that's applied in many
23:47contexts, most notably addiction
23:50treatment. The general approach of
23:52motivational interviewing is to put more
23:54of an emphasis on conversation than
23:56confrontation. With the example of an
23:59addict, for instance, rather than stress
24:01upon them the damage they're doing to
24:03their lives, you would ask questions
24:05designed to bring them closer to
24:07reckoning with that themselves as they
24:09answer. The thinking goes that a lasting
24:12commitment to change is far more likely
24:14to occur if it comes from within.
24:17Forensic professionals such as Smith and
24:19those consulting with him in his
24:21approach to Williams believe the same
24:23holds true for confessions.
24:26Yeah. And that's what that's why um I'll
24:29be quite frank with you. That's why uh
24:30things kind of um uh evolved when uh the
24:34officers talked to you on Thursday
24:35night. Okay. Uh we kind of went from
24:37there because uh when I think you
24:39discussed with them the fact that you
24:40were a uh uh a colonel at the base. I
24:44was in uniform at the time. So yeah. So
24:46pretty obvious, right? Um so essentially
24:49uh then the connection with Miss Ko um
24:52was made. Um, and I believe you're uh a
24:56door or two down from one of those two
24:59uh incidents uh in tweed. Three doors
25:02down. Yeah. Yeah. Very close.
25:03Absolutely. Yeah. Exactly. So, uh those
25:05are some of the issues we wanted to
25:06discuss with you. Okay. Um so, just
25:10getting back to uh these four incidents
25:12that we're talking about. Um maybe you
25:14could just give me a little bit of
25:16history as to uh your arrival in the uh
25:19in the base in Trenton. When did you
25:21start working there?
25:24Friday on the day I was um
25:31just shy of 15 minutes into the
25:34interview, Williams will already be
25:36feeling the heat. It will have certainly
25:38occurred to him before now that he won't
25:40be able to produce a verifiable alibi
25:43for any of the incidents. But being
25:45asked to walk Smith through his
25:47movements in and around the time that
25:49Jessica Lloyd went missing will really
25:51be bringing that fact home for him.
25:55Friday on the day I was at home most of
25:56the time. Most of the day I had a sort
25:58of a stomach flu. Okay. In Ottawa or
26:01Tweet? Tweed. In tweet. Okay. Yeah. Uh
26:04so we backtrack then. Smith says he
26:07wants to backtrack, but then appears to
26:09realize the importance of what Williams
26:11just said. So, he quickly changes course
26:14to confirm a very important fact before
26:17going backwards in the timeline.
26:21So,
26:22all day Friday, you're at home. Yeah.
26:25And then what time do you leave to go to
26:28the base to sleep there on the Friday
26:29night? Um,
26:34not sure. probably just, you know, went
26:37in for just before bed. Uh
26:40they're probably left tweeted between 8
26:41and 9 or so. Okay. So, William's
26:44location and movements are completely
26:46unaccounted for from the evening that
26:48Jessica was last seen alive until the
26:50following evening once it had become
26:52apparent she had disappeared. Do you
26:54remember what time you left the base at
26:56me?
27:04I don't remember anything peculiar. So I
27:06would say uh
27:09I don't know probably 7 to 9 somewhere
27:11in that range. Okay. That's when you you
27:13left left the base. Yeah. And what
27:15that's a 45minute transit. So 45 minutes
27:17home. Okay. Cool. Okay. Now I'm not not
27:20going to walk you through November, but
27:21I'm going to take you to a date that's
27:22probably pretty fresh in your mind. uh
27:24uh the day that uh that refle
27:32soothing begin to emerge in Williams
27:34body language as he discusses the time
27:36around Marie France Ko's death. Um do
27:39you remember how you found out? I do.
27:41Yeah, I was sent an email. Um
27:46well, as soon as the uh the off staff in
27:48the base learned that you told me. Okay.
27:52So, I got an email. I can't remember if
27:54it was late at night, early in the
27:55morning. It was certainly I saw it uh I
27:58want to say first thing in the morning
27:59because I had just come back from
28:00Ottawa. I was in Ottawa for um
28:06um a set of meetings on one of the days.
28:08I can't remember what what day of the
28:10week we're talking about, but uh
28:13yeah. No, I mean obviously one of your
28:15people gets killed, it gets your
28:17attention. So, absolutely. I very much
28:19remember that coming in. And how did you
28:21know Marie France Coleman? I'd only met
28:24her once. Um,
28:27she was on a crew I was on just after I
28:29got to the base. Okay. While there's
28:32nothing to suggest that Marie France and
28:34Williams had what you'd call a close
28:36relationship, he's still downplaying
28:38their level of familiarity here. Not
28:40long after receiving an email informing
28:43him of her passing, he actually took the
28:45time to make an edit to a press release
28:47that was set to go out from the base
28:49concerning the development. In it, she
28:52was named as Marie Ko. He corrected her
28:54first name to the full hyphenated Marie
28:57France. A correction that in other
29:00circumstances would be touching, but in
29:02this one is stomach tuning due to this
29:04piece of background. Several weeks
29:06before he brutally murdered her in a
29:08phone conversation with one of his few
29:10close friends, Williams mentioned a nice
29:13woman under his command who had been
29:15giving him pointers on his French. The
29:18friend is sure it was Marie France that
29:20Williams was referring to as he
29:22specifically remembers asking if the
29:24pronunciation of her surname was the
29:26same as the Canadian city Bcomo. So, if
29:29we were to uh to, you know, do a similar
29:33uh investigation in your background, is
29:34there is there anything you can think of
29:36that anybody may have misinterpreted or
29:38anything uh in your history that
29:40somebody might say Russell Williams uh
29:43absolutely did this? No. Okay. Be very
29:46boring. What's that? It'll be very
29:48boring. All right. Cuz essentially
29:51that's what I'm looking at is it uh um
29:56you seem like a very intelligent person.
29:57I think you can see how um a surprise
30:01like that would um certainly some alarm
30:03bells in our investigation, right? Okay.
30:06Um
30:08so the next thing we need to cover off
30:09is uh well, I'll just ask you straight
30:12out. Uh given the types of crimes we're
30:14investigating, uh do you get much chance
30:16to uh to watch television shows, CSI,
30:19things like that? I do watch uh I prefer
30:23Law and Order, but I do watch CSI
30:24occasionally as well. Okay. So you have
30:26an idea of obviously the forensic
30:27capabilities, things like that are out
30:29there.
30:30What would you be willing to give me
30:32today to help me um move past you in
30:35this investigation?
30:38What uh what do you need? Well, um would
30:42you be willing to supply things like
30:44fingerprints, blood samples, things like
30:45that? Yeah. Okay. Um footwear
30:48impressions. Yeah. Moments like this
30:51highlight just how advantageous it is to
30:53give a suspect as little of a window of
30:55time as possible between telling them
30:58you want to speak to them and actually
31:00getting them into the room. During the
31:03time Williams was hurriedly stashing
31:05those repulsive hard drives in his
31:07basement ceiling. He never had the
31:09thought to change into different
31:10footwear than he was wearing on the
31:12night he broke into Jessica Lloyd's
31:14house. Like Smith stated a moment ago,
31:17Russell Williams is very intelligent as
31:20well as pathologically detail oriented.
31:23It's highly doubtful such an oversight
31:25would have occurred had he been given
31:26much more than an hour or so to get his
31:28thoughts together. Okay. All right. Um I
31:32think that's what we're going to we're
31:33going to ask you to do. All right. So
31:35Russell Williams provides his blood,
31:37fingerprints, and boot impressions. And
31:39while he and Smith are waiting, we get
31:41another masterclass lesson in how to
31:44pate a person just enough to come across
31:46as courteous but not subservient.
31:51Can I assume you're going to be
31:53discreet? It's possible. Yeah, cuz uh
31:58you know this would have a very
32:00significant impact on the base if they
32:02thought you thought I did this. Well uh
32:05bottom line, Russell, that's one of the
32:07reasons we're here on a Sunday
32:08afternoon. Okay. Um, uh, the, uh, the
32:10military certainly be of great
32:12assistance for to us, especially in
32:14relation to Miss Cuomo's investigation.
32:16So, uh, that's certainly one of the
32:17things that went into our decision to to
32:19give you a call at home today and see if
32:20we could deal with this today. Okay. So,
32:22okay. Um,
32:28just a quick playbyplay of that
32:30exchange. Can I assume you're going to
32:32be discreet?
32:34a perfectly reasonable concern for
32:36anyone guilty or innocent in Williams
32:38position to have, but also a query that
32:41relates to how authorities will be
32:43conducting their business. So, just like
32:45at the very beginning, there's a fragile
32:47dynamic that needs to be maintained of
32:50Williams not feeling disrespected while
32:52at the same time conveying that his
32:54preferences will not be informing the
32:56way this investigation is conducted in
32:59any way, shape, or form. Smith first
33:01attempts to achieve this by again
33:03offering a response that addresses
33:05Williams concerns, but with just the
33:07bare minimum of words and energy to
33:10qualify as polite. It's possible. Yeah.
33:14But in this instance, that isn't quite
33:16enough for Williams to drop the subject
33:19cuz uh
33:21you know, this would have a very
33:23significant impact on the base if they
33:25thought you thought I did this. So,
33:28Smith engages him a little more deeply,
33:30but only really on the level of word
33:32count. Note that everything Smith says
33:35in his 18-second response simply
33:38outlines the approach and actions both
33:41he and Williams already know have been
33:43taken. There are no assurances
33:45concerning what will or won't happen
33:47next. For instance, Smith doesn't make
33:50any promises that it won't be front page
33:52news tomorrow that esteemed Colonel
33:54Russell Williams house has been torn
33:57apart from top to bottom as part of a
33:59double murder investigation. Well, uh
34:02bottom line, Russell, that's one of the
34:03reasons we're here on a Sunday
34:04afternoon. Um uh the uh the military
34:08certainly be of great assistance for to
34:10us, especially in relation to Miss
34:11Cuomo's investigation. So, uh, that's
34:14certainly one of the things that went
34:14into our decision to to give you a call
34:16at home today and see if we could deal
34:17with this today. Okay. So, Okay. Um,
34:26cuz it's tough to undo the rumor mill
34:28once it gets started. That was a
34:30follow-up statement that anticipated
34:32some sort of engagement. Smith quite
34:34deafly chooses to treat it as William
34:37simply thinking aloud, meaning normal
34:39decorum doesn't necessitate a response.
34:42i.e. he ignores him.
34:48I appreciate that. Okay. While they wait
34:51for various results to come back, Smith
34:53turns the heat up a little without
34:55directly asking Williams if he is
34:57responsible for any of the crimes in
34:59question, explaining how microscopic
35:01amounts of DNA can yield a match, and
35:04asking if Williams had any occasion to
35:06be in any of the victim's homes for any
35:09reason. Williams remains firm that he
35:11did not. And then they get to the piece
35:13of evidence that landed him here.
35:15Williams has done a decent job of
35:17maintaining his composure up until this
35:19point. Though crossed arms are said by
35:22some to be indicative of defensiveness,
35:24you can for want of a better phrase give
35:27him credit for choosing a path and
35:29sticking to it. Not showing much of a
35:31change in demeanor as Smith brings up
35:33what must be some pretty terrifying
35:35subjects. When he brings up the tires on
35:38William's car, however, you can see a
35:40bit of squirming start to break through.
35:43What kind of tires do you have on your
35:44Pathfinder?
35:48I think um I think they're
35:51Toyo. Do you know the brand name or
35:54sorry, the
35:56um I don't sorry the make is Toyo. Yeah.
36:00I don't know the model. Okay.
36:05See if read this off PS if it rings a
36:07bell.
36:14Ever heard of uh does Toyo Open Country
36:18HTS?
36:19Make any sense? Okay. Smith discusses
36:22Williams movements on and around key
36:24dates with him for a while before
36:26circling back to the subject of the tire
36:28treads. Would it surprise you to know
36:31that uh when the CSI officers were uh
36:34looking around her property uh that they
36:37identified um a set of tire tracks uh to
36:41the north of her property? Um looks as
36:44if the vehicle left the road and uh
36:47drove along the north tree line of of
36:49Jessica Lloyd's property. Okay. Okay. Um
36:52they took uh they examined those tire
36:56tracks and uh they have contacts in the
37:00tire business. Obviously tire tracks are
37:02a major source of uh evidence for us.
37:04Sure. Um they identified those tires as
37:07the same uh tires on your Pathfinder.
37:10Really? Yeah.
37:12Okay. Okay. One of the other uh one of
37:15the other things that they do to try and
37:17identify the type of vehicle that may
37:18have left those tires well is they do
37:20two things. They they talked to
37:21witnesses. Okay. Um there was a uh a
37:25female police officer that actually
37:27drove by that location uh that evening
37:30and recall seeing an SUV type vehicle in
37:33the field to the north of Jessica
37:34Lloyd's house uh consistent with a a
37:37Pathfinder. Okay. This is a very tragic
37:40story. A police officer on patrol in the
37:43area who just so happened to know
37:45Jessica Lloyd noticed Williams
37:47Pathfinder parked in the field near her
37:49house and felt it was out of place. This
37:51was before Jessica had arrived home and
37:53Williams was still outside lying in
37:56wait. The officer went to Jessica's door
37:58and knocked. But when there was no
38:00answer and the officer couldn't detect
38:02any sort of disturbance as there wasn't
38:04any at the time, she wrote it off and
38:06went on her way. If she had decided to
38:09investigate further by driving up to the
38:11SUV, Williams would certainly have at
38:13least been scared off and perhaps even
38:16caught depending on a number of
38:17variables. This isn't to criticize the
38:20officer, though, as it was frankly a
38:22remarkable show of intuition to have
38:24suspected something a missed to begin
38:25with based on something as commonplace
38:28as a truck parked in a snowy field. What
38:31they also do to try and identify the
38:32type of the vehicle is they look at uh
38:35what they call the wheel basease width.
38:37Okay, cuz different vehicles, different
38:38makes, models have wheelbase width. So,
38:40they can take those two sets of tire
38:42tracks, measure the distance between
38:43them, okay, and determine what the uh
38:47the width is and then they can enter
38:49that into a vehicle database and it will
38:50spit out the types of vehicles. Okay. Um
38:54your Pathfinder's wheelbase width is
38:57very very close to the width of the uh
39:00of the tires uh that were left in that
39:02field. Okay. Um,
39:05do you have any recollection at all of
39:07being off that road? I was not off the
39:09road. No. Okay. All right,
39:13Russell. Um,
39:16is there anything you can think of?
39:18Let's go talk about Marie France Como
39:20for a minute. Okay. Mhm. Is there any
39:22reason at all you can think of that
39:27during our investigation, obviously
39:29we're searching uh computers, uh things
39:32like Blackberries, right? Electronic
39:34devices, uh looking through houses for
39:37things that are in handwriting, written
39:39notes, diaries, things like that. Um,
39:42now I'm not at liberty to tell you what
39:44the content was, but is there any reason
39:45at all you can think of why Marie France
39:48Como would have specifically referenced
39:51you in some of her uh some of her
39:54writings?
39:56Not at all. No. From everything that is
39:59publicly known about the case, there is
40:01in fact no reason for Marie France Como
40:04to have written about Russell Williams,
40:06and no such writings have ever been
40:07disclosed. So, this is in all likelihood
40:10a bluff, but Smith won't need many of
40:12those. The problem is, Russell is every
40:15time I walk out of this room, there's
40:17another issue that comes up. Okay? And
40:19it's not issues that point away from
40:21you. It's issues that point at you.
40:22Okay? This is the first time that Smith
40:25has actually said point blank that there
40:27are factors pointing to Williams. Not in
40:30the sense that he may have known the
40:32victims more than he's letting on or may
40:34have been in their house at some point
40:36or parked on their property on the night
40:38of the crime, but that he is the person
40:41who murdered these women. As much as the
40:43first three accusations insinuate the
40:46last one, it's still a significant
40:48escalation to say so outright. Williams
40:51response to this escalation is
40:53conspicuously muted. Not only will he
40:56not protest as Smith goes deeper into
40:59his grounds for suspicion, he will offer
41:01physical and verbal affirmations and
41:04lean in with intrigue. And I want I want
41:07you to see what I mean. All right.
41:12This is the footwear impression
41:17of the person who approached
41:20the rear of Jessica Lloyd's house. Mhm.
41:23On the evening of the 28th and 29th of
41:25January. Okay. Cuz essentially when
41:27you're dealing with footwear
41:28impressions, um we have a gentleman on
41:31the OP who's uh basically worldrenowned.
41:33Uh his name is John Norman. And
41:36essentially with footwware impressions,
41:38uh, you're in a situation where you're
41:40you're pretty much in the area of of
41:42fingerprints. Okay. It's certainly an
41:45exaggeration to say that footwear
41:47impressions are in the same league as
41:48fingerprints in the main. Though, in the
41:50instance you are able to pull an
41:52impression clear enough to demonstrate
41:54unique marks of wear and tear, that
41:56would, as Smith says, essentially be the
41:59equivalent of pulling a clear
42:00fingerprint. Whether or not the prints
42:02in the snow were clear enough to draw
42:04that precise of a comparison, just the
42:07fact that it's the same make and size
42:09coupled with the tire tracks is
42:11obviously going to be caused many times
42:13over for search warrants, Williams nose
42:16will reveal video footage of him
42:18committing the crimes. So, you can call
42:20this the moment that any cintiller of
42:22hope he may have had in his mind of
42:24buying himself time evaporates. And one
42:27of the things that makes this
42:29interrogation so fascinating is watching
42:31a subject of William's intelligence deal
42:34with this reality.
42:39This is a photocopy of the boot that uh
42:43you took off your foot. Yeah. Just a
42:45little while ago. Okay. Now, I'm not an
42:48expert on footwear impressions, so I
42:50rely on the experts. You take a look at
42:52this print. And again, this is one print
42:54this person walked through. There's
42:56several different prints to compare. So,
42:58we're gonna get features off of one
42:59print to compare, features off another
43:01print to compare.
43:03These are identical.
43:09Okay.
43:11Your vehicle drove up the side of
43:13Jessica Lloyd's house.
43:16Your boots walked to the back of Jessica
43:19Lloyd's house on the evening of the 28th
43:22and 29th of January.
43:24Okay. You want discretion,
43:27we need to have some honesty. Okay.
43:30There are some subtle things about
43:32Smith's choice of words and general
43:34framing of the situation worth making
43:36note of in the next 25 seconds because
43:40this is this is getting out of control
43:42really fast, Russell.
43:44Okay. Really really fast.
43:48[Music]
44:02This is getting beyond my control. This
44:05being the situation is getting beyond
44:07Smith's control. Whereas, in fact, the
44:10situation is actually as stable as it's
44:13ever been up until this point now that
44:15the state has a dead to-right suspect.
44:17And consequently, it is of course
44:19Williams who has lost whatever control
44:21he may have had in his mind over what
44:23direction this is all headed. It's an
44:25artful way of maintaining as much of an
44:27I'm in this with you dynamic as possible
44:30given the circumstances, which protects
44:32a level of rapport and trust, which in
44:34turn creates more fertile ground for
44:37disclosures or even an outright
44:39confession. I came in here a few hours
44:42ago
44:44and I called you the way I called you
44:46today because I wanted to give you the
44:47benefit of the doubt. But you and I both
44:49know
44:51you were at Jessica Lloyd's house and I
44:54need to know why.
44:57[Music]
45:26I don't know what's
45:28um Well, you need to explain it because
45:30it looked as if Williams might have been
45:32about to come clean, which he may well
45:34have Mean this is why Smith
45:36appropriately backed off and gave him
45:38space. The principle behind this is
45:41actually the same as a mantra in sales.
45:44Shut up and close. The thinking goes
45:47that if a prospective buyer goes quiet,
45:50you shouldn't needle them with any more
45:52sales talking points because you're
45:54liable to break a train of thought that
45:56may have been on track to a yes. If they
45:59come back with a no, then you can start
46:01trying to sell again. Once William's
46:04next sentence after the prolonged
46:06silence forms enough words to indicate
46:08he's going to keep trying to stall the
46:10inevitable, Smith cuts him off and moves
46:13to disclose more information that
46:15further emphasizes how doomed he is. He
46:18needs to keep Williams in a no way out
46:20headsp space for as high a percentage of
46:22time as possible to create optimal
46:24conditions for a breakthrough.
46:27This is the other problem we're having,
46:28Russell. Okay. Again, these decisions
46:31are made by me.
46:33Right now, there's a search warrant
46:34being executed at your residence and on
46:38so your wife now knows what's going on.
46:41There's a search warrant being executed
46:43that day of your residence in Tweed and
46:46your vehicle's been seized. Okay.
46:49You and I both know they're going to
46:50find evidence that links you to these
46:55situations.
46:57Okay. You and I both know that the
46:59unknown offender male
47:04on Marie France Cromwell's body is going
47:07to be matched to you quite possibly
47:09before the evening's over.
47:12Okay. This is a major investigation. The
47:15Center for Forensic Sciences on call 24
47:17hours a day helping us with this.
47:21Your opportunity to take some control
47:23here and to have some explanation that
47:27anybody is going to believe
47:30is
47:33quickly expiring.
47:36Okay,
47:38we're applying the investigators now
47:40applying for a warrant to search your
47:42office.
47:46Right? These aren't decisions that we
47:47can say yes or no to. This is a
47:49practical steps in an investigation like
47:52this
47:55and Russell.
47:59When Smith notices Williams is going
48:01back into quiet mode, he opts not to
48:03finish the sentence he started, but
48:05after 15 seconds decides some further
48:08needling is warranted. Russell. Mhm.
48:11Listen to me for a second. Okay. When
48:14that evidence comes in, when that DNA
48:16match, when that phone rings and
48:18somebody knocks on this door,
48:22your credibility is gone. Okay, what are
48:24we going to do?
48:27You know, there's only one option. What
48:28do you What do you What other option is
48:30there? Again, asking Williams to
48:33articulate what choices he has other
48:35than to confess rather than telling him
48:38he has none is a very effective approach
48:40to conveying how hopeless a situation
48:43is. What's the option?
48:46Well, I don't think you want the cold
48:48blooded psychopath option.
48:51[Music]
48:54I might be wrong.
48:58Okay? Because don't get me wrong, I've
48:59met guys who actually kind of enjoyed
49:01the notoriety. Got off on it.
49:05Got off on having that label.
49:08Bernardo being one of them. Smith is
49:10referencing Paul Bernardo, possibly
49:13Canada's most infamous serial killer and
49:15rapist, who simply as a point of trivia,
49:18just so happened to study economics at
49:20the University of Toronto Scar Bro at
49:23the same time as Russell Williams.
49:25Though one year behind, there's no
49:27reason to believe there was ever any
49:29connection between the two. However,
49:31appealing to someone's self-concept and
49:34how their approach is liable to affect
49:36their perception in the eyes of friends,
49:38colleagues, and the wider public is a
49:40common interrogation tactic. Though,
49:42it's a particularly appropriate one to
49:44pull out when dealing with a subject
49:46like Williams, whose reputation as an
49:49honorable and exemplary military man has
49:51defined so much of his adult life. I
49:54don't see that in you. If I saw that in
49:56you, I wouldn't be back in here talking
49:58to you, quite frankly.
50:04For about 2 minutes, William sits in
50:07silence with Smith occasionally
50:09reiterating his lack of options in
50:11slightly different ways. Russell,
50:16what are we going to do?
50:19[Music]
50:24Call me Russ, please. Okay. A small
50:27gesture indicating Smith's moves to
50:29establish the least adversarial dynamic
50:32possible have been effective. In fact,
50:35Williams will request to speak with
50:36Smith for all interviews going forward,
50:39even after his imprisonment. And you'll
50:42note Smith never calls Russell Williams
50:44by his full first name again after he
50:46makes the request.
50:51We got any rest.
50:55[Music]
50:57Is Jessica somewhere we can find her
50:59easily?
51:02Like, is this something where I can make
51:03a call and tell somebody to go to a
51:05location and they're going to find her,
51:06or is this something where we have to go
51:07and and uh
51:11take a walk?
51:16press.
51:18Maybe maybe this would help. Can you
51:19tell me what the issue is you're
51:22struggling with?
51:28It's hard to believe this is happening.
51:34Why is that?
51:39Is there something missing that you're
51:40struggling with that I can shed some
51:43light on for you?
51:51I'm struggling with how upset my wife is
51:54right now. Russ, what are you looking
51:57for?
51:59I'm concerned that they're tearing apart
52:01my wife's brand new house. So am I.
52:06That if nobody tells them
52:09what's there and what's not, they don't
52:11have any choice.
52:14Computers will be brought to Microsoft
52:17in California. They'll be they'll be
52:19picked apart. You can't erase things
52:22from computers. You can with enough
52:25technical knowhow, though it is very
52:27difficult, which is why criminals often
52:29seek outside help or just opt for
52:31complete physical destruction of devices
52:33to be extra safe. That's completely
52:36irrelevant in this case, though. With
52:38Williams being the data hoarder he is,
52:41no forensic software will be required to
52:43incriminate him. I put my best foot
52:46forward here for you, but I really have.
52:49I don't I don't know what else to do to
52:50to m make you understand the impact of
52:52what's happening here.
52:55[Music]
52:58Did we talk?
53:02I want to um
53:06minimize the impact on my wife. So do I.
53:13So how do we do that? Well, we start by
53:17telling the truth.
53:21Okay. Okay.
53:25So where is she?
53:33[Music]
53:37And there you have it. About 4 hours and
53:4042 minutes after entering the room as a
53:43respected colonel claiming to have
53:45nothing to hide. Russell Williams has
53:47just indicated he's ready to make a full
53:49confession.
53:52Um, is she close to where she lives?
53:54I've got maps of that general area.
54:02Which town is she near? Why don't we
54:03start there? I'm not sure. If you give
54:06me a map of um that covers Caligar down
54:11to the highway
54:14and over to Tweed
54:17and stuff. I'll show you. Smith arranges
54:19to find a more detailed map and Williams
54:22discloses where in his property key
54:24pieces of evidence can be found.
54:26I'll tell you where the emergency cards
54:28are. Where are they? They're in the
54:31house there, but
54:34in Ottawa. Yeah. Whereabouts?
54:37Um
54:40some in the camera bag, which they would
54:41have found in my office. Mhm. And in the
54:45when you walk into the office on the
54:46left side there's a um
54:51uh dusted drawers set of drawers like a
54:54filing cabinet wooden IKEA
54:58in one of the top two drawers and
55:00there's a plastic divider. Yeah.
55:04And there's uh inside there there are
55:08two memory cards. Okay. which are blank,
55:11but I'm sure they can be re.
55:14And whose images are on those cards?
55:17Uh, well, I've erased them, but I expect
55:21uh you'll be able to draw images of uh
55:25Jessica and I.
55:28What about Marine?
55:37There may be images on there as well.
55:40and the two women from September.
55:43Yep. Okay. Do you have those images
55:46stored anywhere else?
55:53Yeah, there are um two hard drives in
55:55the house in Ottawa.
55:59I can draw you a little picture.
56:02Sure. Do you want to do that now while
56:04I'm getting the map? Okay. Then after
56:07retrieving a map and getting a specific
56:09location for Jessica Lloyd's body, it's
56:11time to gather more information as to
56:13how exactly Williams crimes transpired.
56:16What do you want to talk about?
56:21Guess it's uh pretty wide open now.
56:24Yeah. What do you want to know? Well, do
56:26you want to work forwards or backwards?
56:31Doesn't matter. Why don't we start with
56:33Jessica? Okay.
56:37How does that start for you?
56:42Um,
56:44I saw her in her house on a treadmill.
56:48Another thing Russell Williams
56:49interrogation is infamous for is the
56:52chilling level of detail he goes into in
56:54an almost business-like fashion about
56:57the horrific acts he perpetrated, some
56:59of which you'll hear in a moment. We
57:01pause here to note, however, that
57:03Williams is not so much an exceptionally
57:05honest serial killer, as he is an
57:08exceptionally pragmatic one. He's
57:10confessing to the murders and assaults
57:12because he's come to realize it's not
57:14possible to avoid being implicated in
57:16them. As to the grizzly details he'll
57:19disclose, those too are unconcealable
57:21because he filmed just about all of it.
57:24But he will still lie to try to cast
57:26himself in a better light when he thinks
57:28that he can. And what he just said about
57:31first spotting Jessica on her treadmill
57:33as he drove past her house is an example
57:35of this. The treadmill was situated near
57:38an above ground basement window at least
57:4150 yard from the road that Williams
57:43drove to and from work on. So it's
57:45highly implausible he just happened to
57:47see her there while driving past one
57:49day. It's much more likely and in
57:52keeping with his mo that he first saw
57:54her under different circumstances and
57:57then began stalking her for a period of
57:59time, which some might see is more
58:01sinister than spotting her once and then
58:03being overtaken by an irrepressible
58:06urge, even though the wickedness of what
58:08he did to Jessica is the same.
58:13So, I woke her up,
58:16didn't um didn't hit her. She only hit
58:19her once,
58:21Friday night. That is true. One thing of
58:24note that we'll explain the importance
58:26of in the final section of this video is
58:29the nonsexual physical violence Williams
58:31visited upon his victims was
58:33consistently just enough to achieve his
58:35ends. No overkill. Though, there's a bit
58:38of a qualifier to put on that when it
58:40comes to Marie France Como, which we'll
58:42explain momentarily.
58:46Well, so I raped her in uh in her house
58:53and then I took her to the car and took
58:55her to Tweet.
58:58Spent the day in Tweet
59:01and then I hit her uh as we were
59:04walking. She thought we were leaving.
59:12Hit her on the back of the head.
59:15What did the hit on the back of the head
59:16do?
59:21Well, I was surprised it uh her her
59:25skull gave way.
59:28She was there and immediately
59:30unconscious
59:32and I strangled her.
59:35Okay.
59:37What did you hit her with?
59:39Flashlight.
59:41Okay. in the house or outside the house?
59:44Who knows?
59:46God knows what detective Jim Smith is
59:48actually thinking and feeling right now.
59:51Enough time working as the head of a
59:52major crimes unit is sure to build a
59:54pretty strong stomach. But in any event,
59:57he needs to maintain as much of a
59:59neutral and non-judgmental stance as
1:00:01possible as any outward displays of
1:00:03disgust may inhibit further disclosures.
1:00:07Okay.
1:00:09Marie France uh como
1:00:12there was an open window in the basement
1:00:14of her uh her house when she was away.
1:00:19I went in there um a couple of nights
1:00:21before she came home,
1:00:25looked around.
1:00:30I went back in there uh late at night
1:00:32when she was at home.
1:00:35Was on the phone in her bedroom.
1:00:40She actually discovered me in the
1:00:41basement.
1:00:45She was trying to get her cat to come
1:00:47upstairs and the cat was in the basement
1:00:50seen me and was fixated on me in the
1:00:52corner. She couldn't get the cat up. So,
1:00:54uh,
1:00:57she came downstairs to try and get the
1:00:58cat. And
1:01:00I'm not sure why she, uh, came over to
1:01:04me. I guess the cat was staring at me,
1:01:05and she was wondering why the cat was
1:01:07staring at.
1:01:11So, when she spotted me, I um,
1:01:16had the same flashlight.
1:01:18I subdued her.
1:01:21How did you subdue her? And when you say
1:01:22subduer in the basement, what did you
1:01:24do? She she saw me right away. So it was
1:01:27just uh I hit her a couple of times and
1:01:30around her head, try and knock her out.
1:01:34Didn't but um she was bleeding a little
1:01:38bit
1:01:40eventually. Um
1:01:43struggled subdued her. Marie France Como
1:01:46was treated with more brutality and
1:01:48cruelty than any of Williams other
1:01:50victims. most likely on account of
1:01:52courageously putting up a struggle.
1:01:54Where Williams has documented loosening
1:01:57bindings when victims complained they
1:01:59were causing pain, Marie's complaints to
1:02:01this effect were totally ignored. At one
1:02:04point in the video he recorded of the
1:02:06incident. She can reportedly be heard
1:02:08pleading that she does not want to die
1:02:10after Williams whispers something in her
1:02:12ear, implying he is taunting her. This
1:02:15is in stark contrast to his other
1:02:17victims, including Jessica Lloyd, who he
1:02:20repeatedly assured would live. Did she
1:02:22recognize you? No, I had uh stuff on my
1:02:26face.
1:02:28So, you go upstairs and you said uh she
1:02:31suffocated.
1:02:33Well, I suffocated. I put tape on her um
1:02:36I put tape on her mouth
1:02:39and then I put tape on her uh nose and
1:02:44held it there so she couldn't breathe.
1:02:48Did you take anything out of uh Marie
1:02:50Franc's house or Jessica Lloyd's house?
1:02:54Uh yeah, some of their underwear.
1:02:58Okay, that's all. And where is that?
1:03:03Um,
1:03:05it's in some boxes
1:03:10in the basement here in Ottawa in that
1:03:12rec room. How much underwear is in those
1:03:14boxes? In the coming seconds, you're
1:03:16going to see Williams exhibit the
1:03:18classic mannerisms of a person who knows
1:03:20they have to admit something, but can't
1:03:23quite bear to say it aloud. Less because
1:03:26it's evil and more because it's
1:03:28humiliating.
1:03:34um
1:03:38probably 60 pieces or so total all
1:03:40women's. The word total implies all in
1:03:44all final count which Williams quickly
1:03:47realizes does not make his answer of
1:03:49probably 60 pieces or so a truthful
1:03:52reply to the question how much underwear
1:03:54is in those boxes. So he amends his
1:03:57answer.
1:03:59Yeah. 60 pieces of theirs
1:04:02[Music]
1:04:04of who's of Jessica's and uh
1:04:09Mary France.
1:04:12So you took what 60 pieces from between
1:04:15the two of them? Yeah. Okay.
1:04:18Even Detective Smith in his line of
1:04:21work, having spent this amount of time
1:04:24listening to Russell Williams recount
1:04:26these sorts of activities, is visibly
1:04:29takenback by the disclosure that
1:04:30Williams collected approximately 60
1:04:33pieces of underwear between just two
1:04:35victims. But that doesn't even scrape
1:04:38the surface of how astonishing the
1:04:40insatiability of his fetish has gotten
1:04:42by this point. which is why Williams is
1:04:45being koi around the question of how
1:04:47much missing underwear he's truly going
1:04:49to be found to be accountable for. Over
1:04:51the course of his criminal career, he
1:04:54stole at bare minimum 1,400
1:04:59pieces. On more than one occasion, he
1:05:02had to burn piles of them due to
1:05:04literally running out of physical space
1:05:06in his house to store his spoils where
1:05:08his wife wouldn't find them. Why do you
1:05:11think these things happen?
1:05:15[Music]
1:05:19Have you spent much time thinking about
1:05:21that? About why? Yeah.
1:05:25Yeah.
1:05:27But I don't know the answers.
1:05:30And I'm pretty sure the answers don't
1:05:31matter.
1:05:33Well, let me let me ask you this. Did
1:05:35you like or dislike these women?
1:05:40I didn't know any of them.
1:05:42Okay.
1:05:44I admit Maddie found us that one time in
1:05:48that in our airplane. Okay. Now, I guess
1:05:52I guess I'm going to add when you're
1:05:53going through these things. Um,
1:05:58are you Well, let me let's talk about
1:06:00Jessica cuz she was there with you for
1:06:02the whole day, right? What kind of
1:06:04feelings were you experiencing while you
1:06:06were with her that day?
1:06:17[Music]
1:06:23Oh, she's a very nice girl.
1:06:27Williams seems to exhibit in this
1:06:29moment, as he has in previous moments,
1:06:32something that is not at all common
1:06:34among serial killers. Genuine shame. not
1:06:38just stemming from his loss of standing,
1:06:40but what he actually did to Jessica and
1:06:43his other victims. You may disagree with
1:06:45this analysis, and you have perfectly
1:06:48good reasons to, but several people who
1:06:50have studied this case and/or had the
1:06:52opportunity to see Williams in person
1:06:55have drawn the same conclusion. We'll
1:06:57discuss the significance of that
1:06:59contention in the final section of this
1:07:01video. Can you tell me why you killed
1:07:03her, Russ? Do you know why you killed
1:07:06her? Well, I think I killed her because
1:07:09I knew that uh
1:07:12her story would be recognized.
1:07:15Her story would be recognized. How do
1:07:17you mean?
1:07:19Well, cuz she knew I was taking
1:07:20pictures.
1:07:22So because of the um two um
1:07:28stories in tweed
1:07:34that would have been fairly been quite
1:07:36obvious.
1:07:38Maybe the rationale behind murdering
1:07:40Lloyd that Williams is stating is
1:07:42truthful, but it doesn't logically make
1:07:44a lot of sense. To recap, he's saying
1:07:47the woman he assaulted in his home
1:07:49neighborhood of Tweed lived to tell the
1:07:51tale of a man who bound, assaulted, and
1:07:53most importantly in his mind, took
1:07:55pictures of them. If Jessica Lloyd and
1:07:58presumably Marie France Como, who lived
1:08:00further away from his home and closer to
1:08:02the military base, had the same story,
1:08:05the risk of the assaults leading back to
1:08:07him would dramatically increase. But
1:08:09that just isn't true. If the incidents
1:08:12in Tweed and those closer to the
1:08:14military base are connected, then it is
1:08:16true that a geographical link to
1:08:18Williams becomes more stark. But that's
1:08:21it, which is hardly going to be enough
1:08:23to put an esteemed colonel with no
1:08:25criminal record under the microscope, as
1:08:27we see demonstrated by the fact that the
1:08:29crimes were suspected as very likely
1:08:31being connected anyway due to their
1:08:33inherent abnormality in the area outside
1:08:36of the photography aspect. and this
1:08:38never caused Williams to come under
1:08:40suspicion until his tires were matched
1:08:42to the treads found on Jessica Lloyd's
1:08:44property. An alternative explanation is
1:08:47that Williams incorporating murder into
1:08:49his MMO was in a sense accidental. He
1:08:52may have had no intention of killing
1:08:54Marie France Como when he broke into her
1:08:57house, but wound up deciding to do so
1:08:59after things didn't go according to plan
1:09:01and he felt like she may have gotten too
1:09:03good a look at him, was enraged by the
1:09:05fight she put up, or a mixture of both.
1:09:08After doing so, he got an additional
1:09:10rush from the murder and getting away
1:09:12with it, which in turn raised the bar
1:09:14for what he needed to get his fix. This
1:09:17theory is, of course, impossible to
1:09:19prove. Williams discusses what he did to
1:09:22Jessica in rather harrowing detail, most
1:09:24of which we'll spare you. But there is
1:09:26one moment he discusses toward the end
1:09:29of the ordeal we want to pick up on. She
1:09:32had a seizure.
1:09:35Actually,
1:09:36she felt it coming on and um
1:09:42because she'd had some before.
1:09:44probably
1:09:46probably went on for about 15 minutes
1:09:49of it. So, how do you know she had them
1:09:53before? She told me Jessica Lloyd was in
1:09:57all likelihood faking the seizure as a
1:09:59ploy to end what by that point had been
1:10:01just about a full day long assault.
1:10:03Williams was filming during the moment
1:10:06and in the tape she can reportedly be
1:10:08heard saying that he needs to drop her
1:10:09off at the hospital because she only has
1:10:1220 minutes from the time it starts. Yet
1:10:14her family has indicated she had no
1:10:16history of seizures. Williams is said to
1:10:19appear to attempt to comfort her during
1:10:21this episode, telling her she'll get
1:10:23through this and the like. And such
1:10:25totally inongruous gestures of kindness
1:10:27are not out of the ordinary in his mo
1:10:30with the exception of Marie France Como.
1:10:32In the instance of Jane Doe, she reports
1:10:35that after she told him he didn't seem
1:10:37like the sort of person who would do
1:10:38these things, his demeanor seemed to
1:10:41become somewhat kinder. Notwithstanding
1:10:43the circumstances, he also made a point
1:10:46of reassuring her baby would not be
1:10:48harmed. In the case of Lorie Massacott,
1:10:51he even fetched her an aspirin at one
1:10:53point after she complained of head pain.
1:10:55None of this is to try to make the case
1:10:57that Williams is actually not that bad a
1:11:00guy, of course. But again, it should be
1:11:02noted that such behavior is highly
1:11:05atypical among serial killers. They may
1:11:08well express false gestures of caring
1:11:10and concern to achieve their ends, but
1:11:13very rarely after they have gained full
1:11:15control, as Williams had in all
1:11:18aformentioned examples.
1:11:21Then um I got her dressed.
1:11:25She thought she was leaving.
1:11:28And then as we were walking out, uh, I
1:11:31struck her on the back of the head.
1:11:34She was immediately unconscious
1:11:39and then I, um, strangled her.
1:11:43And from there, Russell Williams
1:11:46essentially volunteered for a fast track
1:11:48to life in prison, assisting authorities
1:11:50in locating Jessica Lloyd's body,
1:11:52further incriminating evidence on his
1:11:54hard drives, and pleading guilty to a
1:11:57total of 88 criminal charges, including
1:12:00two counts of first-degree murder. He
1:12:02was sentenced to two concurrent life
1:12:05sentences. And while Canada's criminal
1:12:07code dictates he must be eligible for
1:12:09parole after 25 years, there is
1:12:12absolutely no reason to believe it will
1:12:14ever actually be granted.
1:12:17But while the criminal case of Russell
1:12:19Williams is about as definitively closed
1:12:22as it can be, his psychological profile
1:12:25remains frustratingly ambiguous. This
1:12:28video has made references to Williams
1:12:30being in many ways an atypical serial
1:12:33killer. And in closing, we want to flesh
1:12:35out how that's so in a little more
1:12:37detailed. Very briefly, because there
1:12:40isn't much more to say beyond just
1:12:42pointing it out, first acting on deviant
1:12:44impulses at the age of 44 is extremely
1:12:48rare. Williams has estimated his
1:12:50obsession with women's underwear went
1:12:52back to his late 20s or early 30s, but
1:12:55he was able to keep it under control
1:12:57until 2007. As to a potential triggering
1:13:01event that might have pushed him over
1:13:02the edge, he claims to not be able to
1:13:05think of one. And the best explanations
1:13:07others have been able to posit are
1:13:09festering resentment over a rejection
1:13:11from his college years, struggles with
1:13:13arthritic pain, and grief over the death
1:13:16of his 18-year-old cat, Curio, which
1:13:19happened well after his first break in
1:13:21anyway. So, in other words, no decent
1:13:24explanation whatsoever. When it comes to
1:13:27defining the type of serial killer
1:13:29Williams is, it's not as if his behavior
1:13:31defies all categorization or fails to
1:13:34tick any boxes on a checklist of serial
1:13:36killer 101's. On the severe sexual
1:13:39sadism scale, one of the most
1:13:41contemporary evaluation methods for
1:13:44diagnosing sexual satists, William
1:13:46scores a six with only a four being
1:13:49required to qualify. A quick note on the
1:13:52scale for those of you paying attention
1:13:54to the individual criterion, you might
1:13:56notice that both torture of the victim
1:13:58and excessive physical violence are
1:14:00crossed, which could be perplexing given
1:14:03some of the details we've been over, as
1:14:05William's violence was clearly excessive
1:14:07relative to anything like normal
1:14:09behavior. And what his victims went
1:14:11through could safely be described as
1:14:13torture. But in this context, all of the
1:14:16descriptions are relative to someone who
1:14:18is already a violent sexual offender,
1:14:21not all of whom are necessarily sadists.
1:14:24Excessive then means excessive relative
1:14:26to what is required to achieve the
1:14:28offender's ends. Same goes for torture.
1:14:31As mentioned during the interrogation
1:14:33analysis, the physical and psychological
1:14:36cruelty that Marie France Como was
1:14:38subjected to did exceed what was
1:14:40required to achieve Russell Williams
1:14:42ends. However, because that behavior was
1:14:45so anomalous to William's other
1:14:47assaults, it can be reasonably inferred
1:14:50that it stemmed from rage at Marie
1:14:52France's resistance rather than
1:14:54gratification from the violence itself,
1:14:57making the behavior more of an extension
1:14:59of the second criterion rather than a
1:15:02qualifier for the third or seventh. In
1:15:04any event, Russell Williams is a sexual
1:15:07satist. With that established, let's
1:15:10move on to what he is not. In the
1:15:12opinion of several professionals who
1:15:14have evaluated him, including his own
1:15:16forensic psychiatrist, he is not a
1:15:19psychopath. There are numerous reasons
1:15:22various journalists, academics, and
1:15:24forensic professionals have put forward
1:15:26as to why that label is inappropriate.
1:15:28To boil it down as simply as possible,
1:15:31he does not seem to have a severely
1:15:33impaired sense of empathy or conscience.
1:15:36He exhibited what appeared to be genuine
1:15:38warmth and consideration in his personal
1:15:41relationships. The number one concern he
1:15:43cites in his interrogation of not
1:15:45wanting his crimes to unnecessarily
1:15:47burden his wife appears totally sincere
1:15:50and isn't in keeping with a psychopath
1:15:52who will typically be the center of
1:15:54their own concern when the chips are
1:15:56down. In terms of demonstrating empathy
1:15:58in relation to the crimes themselves, we
1:16:01know that both victims he allowed to
1:16:03live reported this rather bizarre
1:16:05dynamic where he seemed to want to
1:16:07comfort them, even as he brutally
1:16:10violated them. It can't be ruled out
1:16:12that this was just the approach he
1:16:14thought was best to minimize the chances
1:16:16of them fighting back or screaming out,
1:16:18of course, but he should put some stock
1:16:21in what they perceived. like Jane Doe
1:16:23noting that his demeanor seemed to
1:16:25become kinder after she appealed to his
1:16:27sense of character. It would be very
1:16:30unusual for a psychopath to care about
1:16:32living up to such a perception,
1:16:34especially in a circumstance where
1:16:36they're anonymous. As to after he was
1:16:38caught, well, as ill advised as it may
1:16:41be to take a serial killer at his word,
1:16:44the apology he offered at his sentencing
1:16:46reads as genuine shame.
1:16:49And while it should be noted that
1:16:51friends and family in attendance were in
1:16:53no way moved by it, the presiding judge
1:16:56believed it to be sincere, even while
1:16:58still referring to Williams as a sick
1:17:00and dangerous man whose depths of
1:17:02depravity knew no equal. However, if you
1:17:06still have doubts as to the sincerity of
1:17:08Russell Williams remorse, it can't be
1:17:10said that you don't have cause, because
1:17:13there does seem to be an inescapable
1:17:15contradiction at the heart of the
1:17:17proposition. How can someone capable of
1:17:19feeling remorse over such crimes also be
1:17:22capable of carrying those crimes out and
1:17:25enjoying it in the first place? We have
1:17:28absolutely no answer to that question.
1:17:32There is at very least good reason to
1:17:34hope his remorse is genuine. Not in the
1:17:37sense that it might allow us to view
1:17:39Russell Williams as an ever so
1:17:41marginally better human being, but that
1:17:43it creates a final picture of this case
1:17:46that most closely approximates what one
1:17:49could call true justice. There is no
1:17:52reversing what Russell Williams did.
1:17:54There is no bringing Marie France Como
1:17:56and Jessica Lloyd back to life and there
1:17:59is no death penalty in Canada. So
1:18:02Williams is now housed in a maximum
1:18:04security prison. And because the nature
1:18:06of his crimes and his background would
1:18:09make him unsafe among the prison's
1:18:11general population, he is kept in
1:18:14isolation, receiving meals through a
1:18:16slit in the door of his cell and having
1:18:19little to no contact with the other
1:18:21high-risk prisoners on his blog. The
1:18:23half an hour a day he's given to
1:18:26exercise in a small walled off yard
1:18:29alone is the closest thing he has to
1:18:31recreational activities. Outside of
1:18:34that, just about the rest of the
1:18:37entirety of Russell Williams existence
1:18:40will be spent sitting in his cell alone
1:18:42with his thoughts. If he really does
1:18:45have a conscience, as some claim, then
1:18:48that time with those thoughts, it could
1:18:51be argued, is a fate worse than death.

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