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The Speaking Expert: How To Speak So Everyone Hears You! Julian Treasure — Transcript

by The Diary Of A CEO · 18,907 words · 2,792 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00if you've got a boring voice you can do
0:01something about it it's possible
0:04Julian treasure the auth of how to be
0:07heard your Ted Talk is the sixth most
0:10listened to Ted Talk of all time I've
0:12assembled seven deadly sins of speaking
0:14here they are it's the most common
0:16mistake I see in business in
0:17relationships you're speaking to teams
0:19you're trying to inspire people you're
0:21trying to lead people build
0:22relationships with people this is part
0:24of your life and you've never paid any
0:26attention to it we teach reading and
0:29writing in schools we don't teach
0:30speaking which is absolutely nuts we're
0:33much Keener to be heard than we are to
0:35listen to others what's the biggest
0:37complaint in relationships he or she
0:39never listens to me our happiness and
0:41our well-being are fundamentally
0:42affected by whether we master the skills
0:45of speaking and listening
0:47how does one speak with authority in
0:49work in life in my relationships what
0:51advice can you give me people often say
0:53to me I don't feel confident how can I
0:54engage with people and the answer is
0:58before this conversation starts I've got
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1:29foreign
1:31[Music]
1:36you've had a pretty marvelous unique
1:39career and it's twisted and turned and
1:41twisted and turned in a really
1:42fascinating way one in which I I don't
1:44imagine anyone could have really
1:46predicted ahead of time
1:49what do I need to know about
1:52you and your earliest years to inform
1:56the person listening to this of any
1:58context that ended up steering where you
2:00would end up in your life
2:04I think I mean I was very fortunate to
2:06have a good education
2:08which I didn't use to the max perhaps
2:11but I appreciated enormously
2:15but I think from
2:16a young age I grew up
2:18with a confidence that all will be well
2:23and that's I suppose you could sum that
2:25up in the word faith
2:27not talking about religious Faith
2:28necessarily
2:30although I've been in and out of that in
2:32my life
2:33but just a conviction that all will be
2:36well
2:37and I think that's an important thing
2:39for I mean for entrepreneurs
2:41who tend to be the people who'll take
2:44the jump and say oh I think I'll get to
2:45the other side whereas a lot of people
2:47would be standing there going you know
2:49what you do that
2:51so when things have come along
2:54I've been
2:56comfortable to go with the flow to to
2:58say well let's see where this goes I'm
3:00sure it'll be interesting
3:03I read that your Ted Talk
3:06um on speaking and being heard I think
3:08that's the one
3:09um is the sixth or seventh most listened
3:12to Ted Talk of all time which is
3:16staggering because there are thousands
3:17and thousands of TED Talks I've done one
3:19nobody listened
3:21um and
3:22so I was when I saw that I thought how
3:25much did that moment change your life if
3:27at all
3:28um and can you just tell me about the
3:30decision to do that talk that day and
3:31how it came about
3:33well it was the fifth actually of five
3:35talks I did
3:37um in a row five separate teds
3:41uh Ted Global was in the UK and Oxford
3:43originally
3:45and the first one I did was about how
3:47sound effects is the four effects of
3:48sound it's called
3:50uh looking back at that that's a very
3:53younger Slimmer me on stage it's quite
3:55funny looking at it now
3:57um nobody's ever used sound before in a
3:59TED talk like that so they were quite
4:01excited about it
4:03and then I got to do the next one was
4:06about sound and health and then one
4:07about listening which is you know as you
4:10know kind of a religion for me and then
4:12one about sound and the environment the
4:15way Architects designed for the eyes not
4:17the ears so I had those four
4:19TED talks to kind of practice I suppose
4:21and become a master I suppose of doing a
4:25TED Talk I mean it's it's a discipline
4:27you have 12 minutes or maybe even I
4:30think my first one was six
4:33you can't gabble you can't cut turn cram
4:36too much in you have to be very clear
4:38about the big idea the why would people
4:41be interested in this the what's the
4:43journey I'm taking people on where am I
4:45moving them from to
4:47and
4:48you need to know how to do it how to
4:50stand on that stage on that red dot and
4:53project it with confidence and clarity
4:56and engage people in coming on that
5:00Journey with you so I suppose by the
5:01time I did that fifth one
5:03I was more experts think in giving Ted
5:06Talks than most people would ever have a
5:08chance to be because I'd done four
5:10before and that's unusual
5:12so certainly when I walked on stage I
5:14felt quite good on that talk and and
5:16yeah I think I nailed it you know I I'd
5:19rehearsed a lot and you know we can talk
5:21about the principles of public speaking
5:22and so forth which you know I've done a
5:24lot of work on
5:26but I did a good job and the audience
5:29really responded there was a great
5:30feeling in the room
5:32so when I walked off
5:33I felt that I'd actually you know done
5:37that one Justice they didn't release it
5:39for a year
5:42and I thought oh maybe they didn't like
5:43it you know but I do remember Bruno
5:46jassani who's one of the the guys who
5:48kind of runs Ted
5:50in Edinburgh Castle bumped into me uh
5:53about three hours after I gave that talk
5:55and he said hail
5:57and I thought ah okay well Bruno wasn't
6:00there so obviously word is getting
6:03around that there's some good stuff in
6:05there and and held the acronym that you
6:08delivered in that talk about how to to
6:10be a great public speaker
6:13um honesty authenticity integrity and
6:14love correct um how did when that Ted
6:17Talk came out how did your life change
6:21because I'm because I know how the
6:22algorithms work it takes some time for
6:24things to sort of pick up momentum but
6:25once they get going and the algorithm
6:27says the watch time on this episode is
6:29very very good so we're going to just
6:30keep showing it to more and more people
6:31so it might have taken some time but how
6:33did how did things change for you at
6:34that point and also your orientation
6:36personally and professionally
6:38yeah it took off quite quickly once it
6:41came out
6:43um I had long since kind of got past
6:46watching the numbers every day you know
6:48the first Ted Talk I did you know I was
6:51obsessive 10 000 people watch this you
6:53know and and I'm sure everybody does a
6:55TED Talk start stuff like that
6:58um
6:59but this one clearly was it was going
7:01ballistic quite quickly
7:03um it went up you know in a period of
7:06months it was in the top 20 I think
7:10and yes it has changed my life
7:12fundamentally really really powerfully
7:15because
7:16I have spent many many hours on planes
7:19going all over the world delivering
7:21talks getting paid to deliver talks so
7:24my career kind of shifted from
7:27running the sound agency an audio
7:29branding company in the UK which is you
7:32know relatively small business
7:34and writing you know my first book Sound
7:38business
7:39I then got the opportunity to write the
7:41second book which was off the back of
7:43that Ted Talk I got the opportunity to
7:45travel the world meet people
7:46um give talks and spread the message
7:48which is the important thing to me
7:50because as I say I'm a listening
7:52evangelist I I am passionate about
7:54persuading people to start listening
7:58um so yeah it moved my career
8:01totally onto a different track
8:04a track of public speaking of writing
8:06books of being a speaker and an author
8:08professionally
8:10and in hindsight when you look at this
8:12the wild success I mean the TED Talks
8:14combined have over 100 million views now
8:17right so that one particular talk I
8:18think it's about 40 million views on
8:20YouTube alone probably right I mean
8:22Chris Anderson says because you've got
8:24ted.com so it's got however many million
8:27on there I haven't looked recently but
8:30um then you add the YouTube views Chris
8:32says whatever it is on ted.com you need
8:34to double it to get a reasonable
8:36estimate of the number of views embedded
8:39podcasts and all that kind of thing
8:40across the internet so yeah way over 100
8:42million I think which is mind-boggling
8:44to me
8:46in hindsight as you look at the success
8:48of that the very very wild you know
8:50completely unprecedented success of that
8:52particular video delivered in that way
8:54on that topic what has it taught you
8:57about why people care so much about that
9:00video and the topic
9:02I think that a lot of people don't feel
9:04heard
9:05in the world
9:06so that that talk was about getting your
9:09message across how to how to speak so
9:11that people want to listen
9:14um and I think that's a need
9:17and it's interesting isn't it you said
9:18the five times number is really
9:20interesting the talk on listening has
9:22been seen by one-fifth as many people as
9:25the talk on speaking so we're much
9:27Keener to be heard than we are to listen
9:29to others and there's an imbalance there
9:31which I think is
9:33endemic in modern society
9:36why do we want to be hard
9:38um to make a difference
9:40to forge relationships to be validated
9:43to mean something to somebody to feel
9:46right unfortunately which is a big human
9:49need that I talk about quite a lot being
9:52right is quite a dangerous thing in the
9:55world at the moment and a lot of people
9:57need to feel justified in that way to be
9:59right
10:00what is it doing doing for us at our
10:02most Primal level to be to be heard or
10:04to be right what is it is it helping us
10:06to belong in a TR in the tribe is it
10:09yeah tribe family human race and um you
10:13know a reason for existing I suppose you
10:15know what am I doing here and if people
10:17are listening to me it gives me
10:18significance that's certainly true
10:21so I think it's it is about validating
10:24one's self I mean I'm big I'm a big fan
10:26of Eckhart Toller uh and his you know
10:30theories about ego
10:32and I think a lot of it would chime with
10:34that you know the ego needs to be
10:36massaged the ego needs to have
10:37affirmation and being listened to making
10:40a difference to people is part of that
10:43but you know on a more altruistic level
10:45making a difference in the world you
10:47know you your life has affected millions
10:50of people
10:51um my talks have hopefully you know cast
10:54a pebble into a pond and the ripples are
10:56going out and lots more people I hope
10:58are listening as a result well that's
11:00good you know whether it makes me feel
11:01good is another thing but it is actually
11:04a good thing in the world we were
11:06talking before we started um chatting
11:07about the uh there's an irony to you
11:09coming here today and speaking because
11:10you've got a bit of a chest call yeah
11:12well yes a head cold which is in my
11:15chest so my voice is pitched down I'd
11:17say two tones at the moment and it's a
11:19bit croaky you know it's frustrating as
11:22well as a speaker
11:24because I love this instrument that we
11:26have you know the human voice is an
11:27incredible instrument
11:29and it's an instrument we all play
11:31although most of us have never had any
11:33training or spent any time learning how
11:35to use it really well well I have and
11:38it's frustrating I'm now dealing with a
11:40slightly broken instrument it's funny
11:42because you know when I'm when my team
11:44send me potential guests that you know
11:46want to come on the podcast and we've
11:47reached out to them to come on this
11:48podcast there's a couple of criteria I
11:50look for and one of the most important
11:53one of the non-negotiables where we've
11:55had the most interesting smartest people
11:57in the world is their ability to speak
12:01and and when I say speak I don't mean
12:03you know how well they can you know how
12:05funny they are or things like that I
12:06literally mean if they're monotone we
12:09can't have the conversation because I I
12:12I've no I've got no data to support this
12:14but if someone is monotoning their
12:16delivery then I find it to be
12:20hard to follow the story regardless
12:22absolutely you say that you say that the
12:24two most important things with speaking
12:25are
12:26the content and then the delivery and
12:28that's what I'm actually getting to is
12:30like that delivery point
12:32have you got any evidence to back up the
12:34importance of that or am I is this just
12:35in my head that I think the well it's
12:38another thing I asked Chris Anderson
12:39who's got more experience of listening
12:40to speakers than probably anybody in the
12:42world because they do that all the time
12:43at Ted and I said to him which is more
12:46important content or delivery
12:49and his answer was answer was quite
12:51interesting he said well if I had to
12:53choose they're both important if I had
12:54to choose its content
12:57because if somebody's delivering
13:00earth-shattering content in a boring way
13:02I can really make an effort and listen
13:06to them and it's worth it at the end
13:08whereas if somebody's delivering vapid
13:10nonsense in a brilliant way it's just
13:12irritating
13:13actually so I I get that but I do think
13:16they're both important I mean it is a
13:18shame if somebody's saying something
13:19incredibly important and they're not
13:21using what I call the vocal toolbox you
13:24know there's all this stuff that we can
13:25deploy if we start paying attention to
13:28our voice you know if you've got a
13:30boring voice you can do something about
13:31it it's possible
13:34get a vocal coach work on it you know
13:37take up a breathing practice improve
13:38your posture just practice
13:41prosody prosody the intonation you know
13:44really exaggerating it I'm a great fan
13:47of doing this it's the kind of thing
13:48that actors do singers do
13:51and many times for example I've I've
13:53given talks where I've been looking at
13:55an audience of CEOs
13:57hundreds or thousands of them and I say
14:00how many of you have to talk in public
14:02Forest of Hands goes up
14:05how many of you have had formal vocal
14:07training three or four people
14:09I go what this is part of your life it's
14:12an important part of you you're speaking
14:14to teams you're trying to inspire people
14:16you're trying to lead people you're
14:18trying to communicate build response
14:20relationships with people you're trying
14:23to move you know mountains with your
14:27voice and you've never paid any
14:28attention to it
14:30it's tragic you know we we teach
14:33reading and writing in schools we don't
14:35teach speaking or listening which is
14:38absolutely nuts
14:39it's funny because I when people ask me
14:41I always say that the most important
14:43skill you can learn is to sell because
14:45you're selling all the time I'm selling
14:46right now I'm sorry I meet a girl in a
14:48bar I'm just going to sell to her to try
14:49and get her number I have a girlfriend I
14:51wouldn't do that
14:52um I'm selling in business I'm selling
14:53to my teams I've been trying to inspire
14:55investors to join us it's con this
14:56caught my life is full of the sales
14:57pitch whether I'm selling myself or an
14:59idea or a vision or whatever
15:01um but I've never really reflected on
15:02the fact that the foundation of that
15:04selling is this instrument of course
15:06well actually even more than that below
15:08that what's the most important part of
15:10the sales conversation listening
15:13it's not the speaker it's the listening
15:15listening to understand the other person
15:17to go onto their Island to understand
15:19what is it what's their pain Point what
15:22is it I can solve or help them with here
15:24because if you can't it's a waste of
15:26time how many times have we all had that
15:28irritating sales conversation where
15:31somebody's trying to sell something we
15:32don't at all need and because they're
15:34not listening so patter you know it can
15:37be good but really well targeted talking
15:42to somebody to whom we have listened
15:44respected and understand that's a
15:47different thing that's powerful
15:49what what would I have to do because
15:51there's lots of people that are out
15:52listening to this podcast that start
15:54their own podcast and want to be a
15:56podcaster and many of them message me
15:57and they want to come and sit here on
15:58this podcast one day what are the types
16:00of things
16:01um you would advise someone to do with
16:03their voice to be a to be heard
16:07well treating your voice as a skill is
16:11the first thing so becoming conscious
16:12that this is a skill it's not a natural
16:15capability just like listening is a
16:17skill hearing is a capability listening
16:19is a skill so I very much talk about
16:21these two things as skills speaking and
16:23listening are skills that we do not
16:25teach in school or university which is
16:27mad so we have to take it upon ourselves
16:30because they matter you know they they
16:33affect our outcomes in life they affect
16:35I always say are happiness our
16:37Effectiveness and our well-being are
16:40fundamentally affected by whether we
16:42master the skills of speaking and
16:45listening
16:46so in terms of speaking
16:48understanding there's a vocal toolbox is
16:50the first thing
16:51so things like breathing your voice is
16:54just breath that's all it is breath
16:56moving across your vocal cords
16:59and in order to speak well it's very
17:02good to develop a breathing practice
17:03maybe you do yoga maybe something else
17:06Jane my wonderful fiance has taught me a
17:09breathing practice which is very very
17:11simple anybody can do it and it's called
17:13resonant breathing which is breathing in
17:16through your nose
17:19and then out through your mouth like as
17:21if you're blowing
17:25so you can hear it and you practice that
17:28and lengthen you count and lengthen the
17:31in-breath and lengthen the out breath
17:33and also we ought to be breathing from
17:35our diaphragm from our stomach because
17:37you know if you watch a baby breathing
17:39it's their stomach that goes up and down
17:41not not the chest
17:43so just developing that I mean I wonder
17:45people listening to this podcast when's
17:47the last time you took a really deep
17:49breath we tend to breathe you know just
17:52to a fraction of our lungs like a little
17:54bird
17:55but with your voice
17:57it's very important to breathe deeply
17:59and to get into that practice also a
18:02great cure for nerves you know if you
18:04come on stage and you're a little bit
18:05like this hello everybody then a big
18:08deep breath will settle the voice right
18:11down so it's a really powerful thing to
18:13do that breathing practice what is it
18:15doing then in terms of improving my
18:16performance I've got the nerves part but
18:18in terms of my vocal cords or
18:20it gets you into it well what is it
18:22Aristotle said Excellence is uh no we
18:26are what we do repeatedly so Excellence
18:28is not an act it's habit
18:31so it gets you into the habit of
18:34breathing better and deeper
18:37and you know when you're speaking in
18:39public there's nothing wrong with taking
18:41a deep breath and filling your lungs
18:43actors do it all the time I mean a
18:45singer can sing for the most enormously
18:47long note uh you know what's the world
18:50record for static apnea 28 minutes
18:54something like that lying at the bottom
18:56of a swimming pool
18:58on one breath
19:00you know and that static apnea then
19:02you've got the the free divers there are
19:04things we can do with our lungs which
19:05are beyond the imagining virtually and
19:08yet most of us just breathe a little
19:10tiny tiny breaths
19:12so it's good for you as well to exercise
19:14your lungs to inflate them I I had
19:16unfortunately a few years ago
19:19pulmonary embolism
19:21which is quite scary and it can kill you
19:23and that's blood clots going to the lung
19:26they have to go through the heart to get
19:28to the lung so that you know that's
19:30where you can die
19:32um and so my lungs are not as efficient
19:35as they were before that and it's made
19:38me even more conscious of the importance
19:40of deep breathing of expanding the lung
19:43capacity
19:44it's part of being healthy apart from
19:46anything else to have great lung
19:47capacity is that what exercise does yeah
19:49kind of an advertently partly yeah
19:51absolutely releases all sorts of good
19:54the happy chemicals into your system as
19:57well exercise but uh breathing is very
20:00very good for you generally and we don't
20:02do enough of it so I've done my
20:04breathing exercises I'm I'm heading on
20:06to the Diary of a CEO podcast what else
20:07would I would I have to
20:09um do to be heard from by The Listener
20:12what are the sort of tips or skills or
20:15well I think variety just in general is
20:19a very important aspect of speaking
20:21so you talked about people who are
20:23monotonic and that literally means One
20:25Tone so if I speak like this through the
20:27whole podcast it would be extremely
20:29boring for people there's not a lot of
20:31intonation going on there I don't get
20:33any emotional resonance speaking like
20:35that so it's it's just boring so
20:38intonation the up and down of speaking
20:42is really important
20:44it's also crucial to be sensitive to
20:47cultural differences in that for example
20:50in scandalavia they have much restricted
20:53prosody or intonation compared to say
20:57the Latin countries where you know
21:00people are like why is it very up and
21:02down like this at the whole time I'm
21:04croaking here
21:05um I remember doing a talk in in Finland
21:08in The Amazing concert Center in
21:11Helsinki which was designed by a
21:13brilliant architect called Toyota and is
21:16acoustically unbelievable and at the end
21:18of my talk there was a little tiny
21:20Ripple of Applause and I thought ah
21:23bombed they didn't like it you know
21:25they've been America it'd be whooping
21:26and hollering and whatever going on and
21:29I went down for a coffee and people came
21:30up to me and said thank you that was the
21:32best talk we have had for some years
21:35that's fins for you they're very
21:36taciturned quiet people they don't get
21:38very excited much
21:40so unless they've had a vodka perhaps
21:42but you have to be adjusting to the
21:45prosody or president of the audience
21:48you're speaking to what's prostitute
21:50president is both intonation so the up
21:54and down delivery which is Route One for
21:56emotion it's it's absolutely crucial in
21:59speaking
22:00and it's also the rhythm of your
22:02speaking the the gaps you leave and the
22:04emphasis you put on words so it's
22:08understanding how to it's not just
22:09reading a script flat it's putting your
22:12personality into what you're saying and
22:15that makes all the difference in the
22:16world
22:17so anybody who it's interesting I mean I
22:20have friends who run um voiceover
22:22Studios and
22:24actors come in to read things TV
22:27commercials books and whatnot
22:29some actors can read some can't
22:34it's not a skill that everybody
22:35possesses to be able to
22:38read something or speak in an
22:40interesting way that's not a script you
22:43learn and then you really really work on
22:44it and so forth just reading something
22:47it's quite
22:49technical actually you have to get
22:51yourself out of the way
22:53so yes working on your voice is
22:57um
22:58about variety it's about breathing it's
23:00about being comfortable with silence for
23:02example
23:04not filling every tiny little Gap with
23:07arms as you knows you know what I means
23:10verbal ticks
23:12so all of these things it's quite
23:14important to record yourself listen back
23:17and start to take it as a skill and as
23:21Mastery become your own coach
23:23effectively I mean I'm sure you watch
23:26back your podcasts and there's always
23:29something to learn there's always
23:30something to look at and to say oh okay
23:32I could have not done that or I could
23:34have said that better or whatever it
23:36might be and that's how we become
23:38Masters and of course you can get a
23:40coach a vocal coach a singing coach a
23:43drama coach an acting coach a speaking
23:46coach there are lots of them out there
23:47so anybody who's
23:49for example got restricted Timbre I mean
23:53Timbre is the quality of your voice
23:55and we tend to like voices that we would
23:57describe in the way we would describe a
23:59hot chocolate rich dark warm sweet
24:02smooth all of those words
24:05if that's not you listening to this when
24:08you have a great voice but if it's if
24:10it's not if somebody's got a thin
24:12squeaky voice or scratchy Voice or
24:14whatever it may be get a vocal coach it
24:16can be worked on these are things that
24:18normally we're in a habit the way we
24:21speak is partly derived from our
24:23physical being
24:25I mean we have a body there are resonant
24:27cavities we have vocal cords but it's
24:30also how we use it and that's much more
24:32important
24:33anybody can learn to maximize their
24:36voice and to make the most the most of
24:38it
24:39so that's about the instrument itself
24:41and then how you play it what emotion
24:44you put into it whether you're conscious
24:47you know the thing I love most about
24:49public speaking
24:51it's making me more conscious in that
24:54moment than anywhere else
24:56standing on the stage you know I've I've
24:59talked to audiences of 11 000 people
25:02there's a big Spotlight there's cameras
25:04on you you're standing on a stage 11 000
25:06people are looking at you if you're not
25:08conscious in that moment you've got a
25:10problem you know so every gesture every
25:13moment of that
25:15is maximum consciousness of
25:18being me and and communicating with
25:22those people
25:23so it's kind of like switching the light
25:25on to maximum intensity
25:27and I really love that that that
25:29experience has colored the way I treat
25:32life in general now because you know
25:34it's my my biggest passion is to become
25:36more and more conscious
25:37to grow a little every day to become
25:39more conscious every day
25:41and speaking helps with that
25:43I've never really talked about it before
25:45but we um we've deleted a few episodes
25:47of this podcast so don't worry this is a
25:50perfect episode but what will happen is
25:52we've had a guest come and they might be
25:54honestly there's some cases where they
25:55are the biggest in the world in their
25:57industry and I can think of one
25:58particular example where if I said the
26:00name of the guest that we had the
26:02episode we had deleted people would be
26:03shocked because I believe they are one
26:05of the biggest stars in the world they
26:07have like 50 60 million followers online
26:10um and then there's another individual
26:11I'll think about who if I said the name
26:13now everyone knows this person they're a
26:15legend in many respects
26:17um but we deleted that episode as well
26:19and content is a factor but the other
26:21factor that really really does
26:23and result in that decision is I I think
26:27it'll be really difficult to listen to
26:28and I feel like I have this sense of
26:30responsibility on a Monday and a
26:31Thursday when we publish that even if
26:33they don't know the name our audience
26:35will listen and we see that in the
26:36numbers if we publish a no-namer or a
26:39superstar we get the same amount of
26:41Clicks in the opening 24 hours roughly
26:43because people are going I don't care I
26:45trust this team to put people out there
26:47so I just wanted to really state that
26:49because there's I know there's a lot of
26:50people that want to come on this podcast
26:51there's a lot of like big CEOs that
26:53contact us and one of the most important
26:55things in my decision criteria is
26:58literally how engaging they are at
27:00speaking and from that I mean the
27:01instrument the delivery
27:03um so I just don't think it's funny when
27:05you were talking I was thinking about
27:06individuals that have said no too big
27:08and they don't maybe I should give them
27:09feedback but maybe that's not my place
27:10it's literally about delivery
27:13um so often so let's let's continue then
27:15on the thread of of delivery you're
27:17talking about standing there speaking in
27:19front of 11 000 people on a stage one of
27:21the things that I'm sure would stop most
27:23of us from even endeavoring to do such a
27:25thing is a lack of confidence
27:29you've got almost a hundred thousand
27:31students online some something crazy
27:33like that that are all coming to do your
27:35courses and to learn from you
27:37confidence must be one of the first
27:39conversations you you you have right to
27:41get someone to be a great speaker
27:44yeah it's important although it's
27:46interesting to note that a lot of the
27:48people who've given some of the best TED
27:50Talks
27:50like me are actually introverts I'm not
27:54an extrovert it's not that natural for
27:57me to do these things
27:59and it's also true of people like Susan
28:03Kane introvert you can stand on a stage
28:05and you can
28:07overcome the fear which is part of
28:09growing as a human being I think
28:11um doing things which are challenging
28:12and pushing through the barriers and
28:14doing it anyway
28:16so yes confidence is important I mean we
28:19could have a long conversation about
28:20confidence because I was educated in a
28:23top Public School
28:26and I think one of the things that top
28:28public schools in the UK do is to give
28:31you an overbearing arrogance
28:33and um to make you absolutely convinced
28:36that you know everything about
28:37everything
28:38and more than that the ability to sound
28:40convincing and to persuade people that
28:43that is in fact the case
28:45and it's taken me decades to get over
28:48that at actually to discover humility
28:52and to discover The Importance of Being
28:53you know authentic about what I actually
28:55can do
28:57so yes I think
29:00public speaking like anything else it's
29:02like riding a bike if you do it enough
29:04you become confident you know the first
29:06time you or I drove a car our hands were
29:08welded to the wheel you know we were
29:10shaking with Terror now you drive a car
29:12and you think about everything but
29:13driving you know so it's just falling
29:15off a log I've done enough speaking now
29:18that's
29:19I do not get frightened anymore nervous
29:23yes nervous is good nervous gives you
29:26the right chemicals to perform at your
29:28Peak
29:29so I never want to lose contact with
29:32that
29:33and I think that's true of anybody only
29:35a professional footballer before a game
29:36nerves will be there adrenaline it's
29:39it's taking you up to the next level
29:42once you get bored with what you're
29:43doing
29:44should you be doing it that's a big
29:46question
29:47but the confidence to do it comes from
29:52practice and that's what I always say to
29:54people it's part of my course you know I
29:57talk about doing things just just doing
30:00the thing
30:01speaking in public
30:03Toastmasters for example you know
30:05they're in every city in the world you
30:07can go and join a Toastmasters chapter
30:08and and start speaking in front of
30:10people that's what they do and as you do
30:13it you become more and more familiar
30:15with
30:17the what goes on and that you know it
30:19isn't actually the end of the world
30:20nobody is actually going to stand up and
30:23and call you out for being a useless
30:25numpty you know you know even if you
30:28forget your words you can actually say
30:30I'm terribly sorry I've forgotten where
30:32I was and everybody I mean I've seen
30:34that happen at Ted
30:35okay people who rely on memory which is
30:37a very very high risk strategy to me you
30:41know I always use slides but if you go
30:43on stage and you've got a Memory Palace
30:45or a chain or one of those routes and
30:47you're like relying on that and you lose
30:49the chain breaks and your cast adrift in
30:52an ocean of Terror I've seen it happen
30:56and what happens when somebody goes red
30:59and starts shaking and says I'm so sorry
31:01I've completely forgotten what comes
31:03next the audience start to applaud
31:05because they're on your side it's not
31:08the end of the world and actually that
31:09can make a deeper relationship than
31:11being slick and perfect and and
31:13Brilliant at every moment I've seen
31:15people who are overconfident over
31:18rehearsed where you know every one of
31:20those gestures has been rehearsed a
31:22hundred times and it was there for the I
31:24mean there was a time at Ted when it was
31:25almost a Reger to cry in a TED Talk
31:28and I remember saying there was a talk
31:30by uh you know an international Banker
31:32or something about economics who halfway
31:34through talked about his fatherhood
31:37deceased and the tears came I thought
31:38please this is this is like being put in
31:42by a coach who says you've got to
31:43connect emotionally
31:45and it was just incongruous really so
31:49I think it's all about being yourself I
31:52mean that's the a of hail being
31:54authentic
31:55uh being yourself is fine it's so much
31:57easier than trying to be somebody else
31:59and having the faith that if you are
32:03yourself and you've got a good message
32:05that people will be with you on the
32:07journey and will be on your side that's
32:10certainly the case that Ted people don't
32:11go to it's not a stand-up comedy night
32:14where people throw things and Heckle
32:16it's a place where people expect to
32:19learn to be transported to be changed by
32:24almost every talk
32:26so the talk does that they love you on
32:28the on the a point in hell I've come to
32:31learn that I think humans are much
32:33better at spotting authenticity than we
32:35give them credit for big time I I think
32:39so from our own perspective we think we
32:42can blag it and we we underestimate how
32:46um how much the viewer or the person I'm
32:49trying to blag it to understands I'm not
32:50being authentic
32:52like we think we're better much better
32:53actors than we actually are and it's
32:55funny the one of the things that's put
32:56this friend of mine for me at the moment
32:57is about three weeks ago there was a CEO
33:01that went viral on LinkedIn because he
33:03had fired multiple members of his team
33:05and then he had taken a photo of himself
33:08crying and uploaded it with like a
33:10really like sorry caption like I'm so
33:12sorry today I had a really tough day I
33:14had to find members of my team and as
33:16you look at that
33:18it just feels wrong it's almost hard to
33:20explain it but the I think your mind
33:22goes well he would have had to cry a
33:24very unnatural thing to do mid crying is
33:26to pick up your phone and take a selfie
33:28and then to go to social media so on
33:31that point of authenticity
33:32um is your suspicion the same that we
33:35people are much better at spotting
33:37someone being inauthentic than we
33:38believe than we understand
33:40I think so we live in a world where um
33:44social media and
33:47um viral opinion spreading make it quite
33:51hard to be truly inauthentic I mean
33:53there's a lot of companies a lot of
33:54individuals who do what's now called
33:56virtue signaling
33:58and people can spot that you know we can
34:00we can catch the whiff of manipulative
34:03inauthentic stances that are trying to
34:07put us across in um the most the best
34:10the most acceptable way whatever the
34:12current you know meal is whatever the
34:15current
34:16um style is to be utterly acceptable and
34:19socially right
34:21so to me this is again this is part of
34:24the human need to be right
34:25and to be seen to be right which is
34:29huge problem in the world right now
34:32I think I mean we're seeing silos all
34:34over the world the interventors have
34:36made this way way worse where you know
34:39you go online and you say there you are
34:40I know I was right 10 000 people agree
34:42with me yeah but there's a million who
34:43don't but you don't go and ask them you
34:45just go and find the people you agree
34:46with in order to validate your point of
34:49view and that is why we get these
34:51extreme you know um conspiracy theory
34:54silos of people who have nutty views and
34:58are persuading each other that they're
34:59right because they only talk to each
35:01other they don't go and
35:03check you know kick the tires of the
35:05thing and check is there an alternative
35:06hypothesis here that would be perhaps
35:09worth entertaining so I think that's a
35:11bit dangerous uh at the moment and it's
35:14all about this need to be right and of
35:16course what's the easiest way for me to
35:17be right is to make you wrong
35:20if you're wrong I am writer
35:23and that is a slippery slope that's a
35:25slippery slope of depersonalization of
35:28dehumanization of
35:31um bias and and hatred and you know at
35:35the bottom of that slope is the kind of
35:36the Isis answer to the world disagree
35:39with me I'll kill you
35:40so that's a dangerous slope and the
35:43media have been contributing to that
35:44slope you know this all this outrage
35:47addiction that we see in the world
35:48that's outrageous somebody's to blame
35:50somebody should be punished and that's
35:52all me saying yeah somebody should be
35:54punished I'm right they're wrong
35:57so it's this kind of ego fire that we
35:59have Building inside of us the desire to
36:01be the rightest person and to cancel
36:03everyone else that's absolutely Council
36:05Council and make people wrong left right
36:08and Center be judgmental that's one of
36:10the seven deadly sins I talked about in
36:12that in that Ted Talk is judgmentalism
36:14is is pointing the finger at people you
36:17know the kind of parent whose son or
36:19daughter comes home and says I got 95 in
36:21the test and says what happened to the
36:23other five you know this it's difficult
36:25to be around people who are that
36:27finger pointy
36:29the other thing with with those with
36:31that a point inhale authenticity that
36:33I've come to learn actually from doing
36:34this podcast is um there's a real cost
36:36mentally to being inauthentic for a long
36:38period of time and I see I see it time
36:40and time and time again when I sit here
36:42with people who were forced to be in the
36:45media or who were first forced to not
36:48forced but chose to play a role or a
36:50character in the public eye and then
36:52their identity became they kind of their
36:55true authentic self became imprisoned by
36:57this public identity that they felt they
36:58had to keep up and then the midlife
37:00crisis comes it's usually like 35 45
37:03where they have some kind of burnout
37:05blowout they find themselves in the case
37:06of one of my guests last week just
37:08coming home and crying every day and
37:09having no idea why they're crying
37:11because they'd spent a decade being
37:13inauthentic in every interaction because
37:15they felt they had to sometimes to
37:17survive because of some early trauma
37:20um and we don't talk about that enough
37:21that and I've you know I've learned it
37:23from doing this podcast myself as in the
37:26most liberating thing for me ever is to
37:28sit here in my socks in my house saying
37:31whatever I want for three hours and
37:33knowing that quite honestly if I tweeted
37:36it I'd get dragged it would get quite
37:37retweeted people taken out of context
37:39and goes into different Echo Chambers
37:40and they all try and
37:42um find a way to get likes off what I've
37:44said whereas I can sit here and say
37:46anything about pretty much
37:47anything in my most authentic self it's
37:49like a weight I get to lift every day
37:52um and it's been so good for my mind
37:54but do you know what the biggest
37:55challenge is about being authentic
37:58what's that was knowing who you actually
38:01are yeah good point so what are your
38:03values Stephen it's a good question
38:06because because you know when people
38:07asked
38:09I'm so scared of saying
38:12what I think people want to hear how do
38:13I know what my values are you write them
38:15down you think about it what I would
38:17what I would write down
38:19I'm worried that what I would write down
38:22are things that have been so deeply
38:24conditioned to be my values by Society
38:26well okay yeah that's worth challenging
38:28isn't it so this is a great exercise I
38:31mean I strongly recommend everybody does
38:32this because not many people do you know
38:34we just live our life in this kind of um
38:36bumping into things making that up as we
38:39go a long way if you have values that's
38:41your moral compass if you have values
38:43that's that's you tending to Define who
38:46you are then you can be authentic what
38:48is a value this sounds like a crazy
38:50thing for me to say but I want to be
38:51really clear like what is a value it's
38:53something that you believe in that is um
38:57what they call in business a North star
38:58for your life it's something that you
39:00will sacrifice to achieve so I carry
39:03mine okay I've got four values which I
39:06made into an acronym because I have a
39:08terrible memory so I like acronyms the
39:10acronym is flag so they are Faith
39:13and that is all will be well I'm not
39:15talking about a religious faith I'm just
39:17talking about the sense that all will be
39:19well because to me if I have faith that
39:21the future will be okay it gives me the
39:24courage to take things on try things and
39:27find out you know it may be a disaster
39:29but if I get to the disaster I've had a
39:32nicer Journey than if I am always oh
39:35it's going to be a disaster it's going
39:36to be a disaster there you are I told
39:38you well I've had a miserable journey
39:39and I've ended up a disaster
39:41so I I prefer to go the way of it'll be
39:44okay oh it's not yeah but even then
39:47it'll be okay to find a way yeah uh so
39:50Faith the L is love
39:52by which I mean thinking well of people
39:56and there's a great practice that
39:58um a very wise old friend of mine gave
40:00me many many years ago which is amazing
40:03um instead of walking around you know
40:05we're in London right now well I live in
40:07a much more remote place so you walking
40:09around London you're always walking
40:11through people and we have this if we're
40:14not careful we have this nasty voice in
40:16our head get out of my way you fatted
40:18yet and oh you're ugly and you're stupid
40:20and you know this kind of nasty side of
40:23us which is doing a little monologue and
40:25being really judgmental and critical
40:26about people
40:28instead of that it's cultivating habit
40:30of saying in the head not out loud bless
40:33you
40:35not religiously again just bless you I
40:38wish you well I'll leave you get into
40:40that habit of walking around going bless
40:42you person who just got in my way
40:44it is amazing the difference it makes to
40:48your likeness of being it's like walking
40:50floating three inches above the ground
40:52you meet people's gaze
40:54and you might even share a smile because
40:57you're not guilty about you or just
40:58thinking they're horrible
41:00you know whereas you've got this nasty
41:02voice going on in your head all the time
41:03you don't look at people in case you
41:05catch their eye and they can see what
41:06you were thinking
41:08so love in that way wishing people well
41:12um and of course love for family and
41:13love for well love for life as well just
41:16being positive you know uh the a is
41:20acceptance which is a really important
41:22thing to me and I tend to try and go
41:26with the flow if an opportunity comes
41:28along I'll try that there's a reason
41:30that's come along so I'm not getting
41:32into you know the secret or any of those
41:35things but I do tend to believe that
41:36things come to me for a reason
41:39um you know whether it's God or the
41:41universe or whatever one wants to say
41:43I'm happy to go with the flow and to
41:45accept also when things don't work you
41:48know I don't bang my head against a
41:49brick wall forever trying to make them
41:52work okay that's not working we'll try
41:53something else so acceptance and also of
41:56people as they are that's really really
41:58important
41:59we spend a lot of time disparaging
42:03people why are you like this why are you
42:05doing this well that's the kind of tree
42:06that person is
42:08and you know you don't get angry at
42:09trees for being that kind of tree so
42:12that is the kind of person that is in
42:14front of you except someone once said
42:17something to you in the podcast which
42:18plays into that they said if if you had
42:19been through
42:20if you'd walked in their shoes and had
42:22their experiences you'd be doing the
42:24exact same oh totally well let's come on
42:26to validation in a minute the and then
42:28the G of um flag can I guess yes is it
42:33gratitude yes it totally is
42:36um I you know I I don't like that catch
42:39phrase and attitude of gratitude but it
42:41is really important to me uh you know to
42:44do a gratitude list when I'm feeling
42:46miserable when I'm feeling down you know
42:47I've got a cold yes but let's now look
42:50at all the good things I've got in my
42:52life you know I have a loving partner I
42:53have two gorgeous little children I live
42:55an amazing orkney which is a joy every
42:57day you know there are so many things to
42:59be grateful for
43:00and I've got some Financial Security
43:02I've got uh you know so much in life to
43:06to be thankful for that way outweighs
43:10normally the the bad things now that's
43:12not true for everybody you know if I
43:14were living in cursing at the moment for
43:17example or somewhere like that there
43:19would be a lot more to be ungrateful for
43:22to be frightened about and so forth so
43:24I'm not saying that in a kind of bland
43:26way but even in the worst places
43:29it's important to focus our attention on
43:33the good things
43:34because a lot of this is about where you
43:36focus isn't it all the time reality is
43:39huge it's all around us we don't
43:41perceive reality we have a map in our
43:43head
43:44and it's up to us to select what it is
43:48that we pay attention to
43:50so that's you know it's very much the
43:51same as as listening which is selecting
43:54certain things to pay attention to and
43:56then making them mean something
43:58well it's the same with gratitude
44:00there's always something or usually
44:02there's something you can focus on and
44:04say okay there's a thing I can be
44:05grateful for
44:06so that's it yeah Faith love acceptance
44:08gratitude so those are mine and I know
44:10that's my moral compass and that's what
44:12I try to be in life and I do recommend
44:15to anybody listening to this if you've
44:17never written your values down
44:19think about it not the ones that you
44:21think will be accepted by more people
44:23out there the ones that actually ring
44:25true in your heart what does your heart
44:28tell you and then you've got a map uh
44:32you've got a you've got a root you've
44:34got a direction in life which I think is
44:36incredibly important quick word from my
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45:30a point about um if you were in their
45:32shoes you if you'd live their life you'd
45:34be doing the validation yeah yeah what
45:37is this validation uh well it's part of
45:39active listening so you know if we talk
45:40about listening
45:42um I talk about listening positions
45:44and one of those is active listening so
45:47it's a place to listen from
45:49and inactive listening to me there are
45:52three stages so stage one is reflection
45:56where I repeat exactly what you said
45:59without coloring it without making it
46:02make sense in the way that I understand
46:04but I say something along the lines of
46:07okay what I just heard you say is which
46:09can be a bit formulaic or you know so
46:12you said this or so are you saying this
46:15so I'm checking that I actually got what
46:17you said I heard you it's amazing how we
46:20don't very often do that so stage one is
46:24reflection
46:25which is used in the therapeutic
46:27professions a great deal
46:29I hear you say this
46:32stage two stages of being a great
46:34listener it's a very important form of
46:37listening it's not appropriate all the
46:39time to be an active listening
46:42um because it's kind of a sledgehammer
46:43to crack a nut in Social conversations
46:46for example you know if we were sitting
46:49in a in a pub or a coffee house and I'm
46:51going what I heard you say Stephen is
46:53this well and then validation goes um
46:56okay I understand it makes sense that
46:58you would feel that
46:59I totally get why you would think that's
47:01true I disagree with you but I
47:04understand why you think that because
47:06then I'm thinking about your background
47:07and your road to this conversation and
47:11we've come different roads to this
47:12conversation and you will have different
47:14life experiences
47:16so validation is really important that's
47:18the empathy bit of active listening and
47:22once I've reflected and validated
47:25then we're into stage three which is I
47:27can contribute
47:29so as opposed to me invalidating yeah oh
47:32don't no that's nonsense to you why
47:34would you think that you know we do so
47:36much in validating in the world of other
47:38people's positions and you can't sell to
47:41somebody or persuade somebody if you
47:42invalidate them as a human being
47:44it's really important to validate
47:48to show that you understand where that
47:50person is coming from even if you
47:52completely disagree then we can start to
47:54put things together and make sense and
47:57move forward I'm thinking of every
48:00romantic conflict I've ever had but also
48:02I you took me back to many client
48:03meetings where the client brings forth a
48:06concern or a problem
48:08um and in that moment you even if you
48:10disagree you know you have to show
48:12you've accepted their concern and then
48:15use that acceptance that place of
48:17empathy to move them to another place of
48:20thinking but also you know obviously the
48:22most obvious
48:23scenario people will think of is with
48:25their Partners when they're trying to do
48:27conflict resolution you know so what's
48:30the biggest complaint in relationships
48:32he or she never listens to me
48:34and that's not just about hearing the
48:36words it's about validating the other
48:38person or invalidating the other person
48:40and if we do that as a habit it can be
48:44very damaging there's a thing actually
48:46uh called stress induced audio
48:49dysfunction s-i-a-d
48:52which can afflict people when there's a
48:55noise that they are exposed to a great
48:58deal and they don't like and they
49:00psychologically start to wipe it out
49:03so for example my father in the later
49:06years of his life was deaf at the
49:08frequency of my mother's voice
49:10and that's not uncommon in relationships
49:12where one partner is in the habit of
49:16hectoring
49:18or nagging at the other partner and they
49:21simply cease to be able to hear it
49:24because it's a noise they don't enjoy
49:26just like it you know it can happen to
49:29people with industrial noise or
49:30irritating noises
49:31uh so it is really important not to be
49:35invalidating somebody as a habit and we
49:38can easily fall into that habit and it's
49:41so powerful in relationship to be
49:44validating people you know one of the
49:46seven deadly sins I talk about in in
49:48that Ted Talk is negativity
49:50and that's a very strong habit that
49:54people can fall into so you can audit
49:56that how often do I say the word no or
49:58not or can't anything negative like that
50:03because if that's a habit that you fall
50:05into it tends to lead to invalidating
50:07other people a great deal I can't do
50:10that I don't see why you'd think that
50:11you can't be serious you know and that's
50:15not a very nice way to behave with
50:17people even if you don't agree even if
50:20they are being stupid
50:21I can see why you think that
50:23now would you like an alternative
50:25perspective
50:27can I give you a different way of
50:28looking at it that might be useful to
50:30you
50:31so you've said you know what you're
50:33doing is not worthless it's not stupid
50:36but maybe there's another way and that's
50:39respectful I think everyone has the
50:42experience of invalidating someone and
50:45them then repeating themselves and then
50:47you invalidate them again and then they
50:49repeat themselves yeah that's called
50:51argumentation yeah well I know it well
50:53because I think in my previous
50:55relationships I would it was funny
50:56because I think I was the problem I was
50:59definitely the the one that was
51:01unwilling to allow them to feel heard
51:03it's the it's the joy of listening
51:06actually
51:07um listening is at the heart of all good
51:08relationships to me and if you listen to
51:12somebody I mean what was it Scott Peck
51:14said you cannot truly listen to another
51:15human being and do anything else at the
51:17same time
51:18and I absolutely agree with that because
51:21it's so rare in this world now we're so
51:23distracted
51:25um you know I I'm a big fan of near
51:27isle's book
51:28um indestructible yeah because we are so
51:31prone to being distracted now I am
51:33listening to you now you're sending a
51:34text that's not listening that's doing
51:36something else so it's rare that we will
51:39put everything down
51:40and do what you and I are doing right
51:42now which is look each other in the eye
51:44you know when you look when you're
51:45listening I've got an acronym for this
51:47um in in the book in the courses and so
51:49forth rasa Russia which is r-a-s-a and
51:53the r is receive and that means look at
51:57the person who's speaking the dance of
51:59the eyes in in the west tends to be that
52:02the person who's speaking
52:04looks around
52:06as I am now you know thinking about
52:08other things and checks back in from
52:10time to time to see if the other
52:11person's still listening
52:13if you're with somebody who's speaking
52:16and they look at you the whole time it
52:17can become a little bit intimidating I
52:20mean we're in a slightly unnatural
52:21situation here so you know we're across
52:24a table from each other which is you
52:25know potentially conflicting
52:27but we're you know really making an
52:30effort to communicate here so you know
52:32I'm looking at you quite a lot more than
52:33I would if we were just you know in a
52:35street or
52:37um you know having a chat
52:38so that's rasa the r is receive which is
52:42pay attention body language facing the
52:45person not feet pointing towards the
52:48door which is always a good indication
52:49that somebody actually doesn't want to
52:51listen to you not doing anything else at
52:53the same time
52:54the a uh is appreciate which is little
52:58noises and head Bobs and gestures you
53:02know eyebrow raises Smiles oh really ah
53:06those kind of things that oil the
53:07conversation the s is
53:10summarizing which is the word so and I
53:13get very angry about the word so
53:14actually it's been
53:17totally debased in the modern world for
53:20some reason it's become a habit for
53:22people to start every sentence with the
53:24word so
53:25so what's your name so I'm John
53:28what you're John because I just asked
53:30you because so means therefore no you
53:33were John before and you're going to be
53:34John afterwards the word so doesn't I've
53:36seen people come onto the Ted stage and
53:38say so no I don't know who you are I
53:41don't know what you're going to say
53:42there is no before
53:44um it is debased a lot but it's such a
53:47powerful word
53:48so we've all agreed this now we can move
53:51on to that or in the long Corridor of a
53:54conversation so what I understood you
53:57just said is this is that right the old
53:59repeating reflecting and so forth
54:01closing doors behind you in the corridor
54:03so you can move on and keep moving
54:05forward
54:07so that's the S of rasa and the final a
54:10is ask asking questions at the beginning
54:12during afterwards you know people often
54:16say to me I I don't feel confident
54:17people don't listen to me how can I
54:19engage with people when they're speaking
54:21the answer is asking questions and if
54:24you're on a bit of territory that feels
54:26unfamiliar or uncomfortable you can ask
54:29questions that form linking that's
54:31really interesting Stephen you just said
54:33that How would how would that relate to
54:34this thing I know about
54:36so I can kind of bring the conversation
54:39to home turf and start to feel I can
54:41contribute something
54:42so that's rasa and that really helps in
54:46a conversation to direct listening and
54:49to and to make the conversation fruitful
54:50for both parties
54:53so yes therefore
54:58one of the things you said that um
55:00reminded me of another topic which I
55:03think is really important when we're
55:04talking about speaking which is how to
55:05speak with with authority I think about
55:08all the people that are in boardrooms
55:09and that might be a little bit Junior in
55:11an organization and that's struggling to
55:12be heard because they don't lack the
55:14The Authority that a title will give
55:17them how does one speak with authority
55:19what advice can you give me to be a more
55:21authoritative speaker
55:22um in in work in life my relationships
55:24wherever
55:25well let's steal the situation first
55:27where you're talking you you want to
55:29speak to somebody who is a powerful
55:31figure or you consider them to be
55:34powerful
55:35um I'm a great believer in agreements
55:38contracts in an informal way
55:41Stephen do you have five minutes I've
55:44got something I really want you to
55:45listen to
55:46well that puts you in a position you can
55:48either say yes or no if you say no
55:50that's fine I won't say it now when
55:53would be a good time
55:54but I'll tell you a great experience I
55:56once had on a beach in India and this is
56:00one of the best sales people I've ever
56:01met it was about a seven-year-old boy
56:04and he came up I was sitting on the
56:06beach he came and said you want Coke
56:08and I said um you're trying to be
56:10British not right now thank you very
56:12much okay when you want Coke
56:16oh uh well four o'clock at four o'clock
56:18he was back here your Coke
56:21I love that it was brilliant so it
56:23taught me a lot about
56:25um being authentic because I wasn't
56:27being was I no I don't want to buy a
56:29Coke from you
56:31um and also about persistence and you
56:33know asking the right questions and and
56:35so forth so in the same way if I ask you
56:38do you have five minutes and you don't I
56:41can park it and come back another time
56:43because it wouldn't be the right time if
56:46you haven't got five minutes that's fine
56:47I can respect your time but from your
56:49point of view yes okay I've got five
56:52minutes and you have just made a
56:53commitment to listen to me so I have a
56:55right if I'm talking to you and you're
56:57off doing something else you know
56:59answering email or something Stephen you
57:01said you had five minutes I do
57:03understand if you're busy when would be
57:05a better time so there's a kind of
57:08obligation there for you to listen to me
57:10so that's one thing I think that's a
57:13strategy that works very well if you're
57:14on a meeting
57:16and you don't feel you're the most
57:18powerful person then again asking the
57:21meeting for permission is a good thing
57:23uh guys I have something that I think
57:25really will contribute here would it be
57:27a good time now to say it to you all
57:31it doesn't always work but I think if
57:34you're asking and people give you a
57:37commitment then you have a contract and
57:39you have a Channel of communication
57:41that's been opened explicitly
57:43one of the things you talked about there
57:45is that kid on the beach with the um
57:46Coca-Cola offering you a can of Coke
57:49and how that kind of violates your
57:53a inhale the authenticity piece
57:57um it also violates the honesty
58:01so
58:03my question is
58:05is there a time when one should not be
58:08honest
58:09well I think that the honesty needs to
58:12be tempered with love
58:15so the answer is it's a filter which is
58:18the L inhale as well absolutely okay
58:21I think that uh being dedicated to
58:24ruthless permanent uh always on honesty
58:26is a pretty dangerous strategy in life
58:29because you'd be going around saying to
58:31people you look terrible today I really
58:33don't like you what you just said was
58:35stupid you know it's not necessary to
58:38say those things to people depends on
58:39what you want to achieve I don't think
58:42it's dishonest to withhold
58:45judgment
58:47and a lot of the things I just said are
58:48opinions
58:50and it's very important to distinguish
58:52between opinions and facts they're not
58:54the same thing and they're very often
58:56confused in the modern world so opinions
58:59that's what I think what I believe what
59:01I judge
59:03fact it's Saturday matter of fact we're
59:06not going to disagree about that we can
59:08disagree about my opinions and you know
59:10I often say I wish that we lived in a
59:13society where perhaps people asked
59:15before giving opinion would you like my
59:17opinion on that no
59:19I had such a good opinion all ready to
59:21go and you don't want it but we don't do
59:25that do we we just proffer opinions and
59:26and a lot of the time we we confuse them
59:28with facts which leads to a lot of table
59:31thumping I grew up in a family where
59:33there was that confusion there was a lot
59:34of argumentation and table thumping
59:37because people had different opinions
59:39and didn't accept that they could
59:41possibly be challenged talking about
59:43your parents talking about your mother
59:45no my father actually he was a my father
59:48was a massively confident and very
59:52successful man in advertising he was you
59:54know he was known as Mr advertising
59:56um for some years in the 1960s
59:59hugely confident and hugely
1:00:03expressed in that way but didn't Brook
1:00:07disagreement very easily
1:00:09so disagreeing with him was quite
1:00:11difficult
1:00:12and that was certainly my experience
1:00:14growing up that you had to be ready with
1:00:16chapter and verse and references if you
1:00:19were going to challenge a point of view
1:00:22how did how did that shape you because I
1:00:24think a lot about how my parents you
1:00:25know my mum was sounded a little bit
1:00:27like what you described earlier where
1:00:29shouted so much at my dad that I I
1:00:31couldn't understand how he stopped
1:00:33reacting to the sound of the shouting as
1:00:35a young age I remember wanting them to
1:00:37divorce because I didn't like shouting
1:00:39for six hours my dad would not really
1:00:41shout back but um that definitely has
1:00:44shaped how I communicate now but how did
1:00:46it shape you that that environment well
1:00:48very similar I mean I think you know my
1:00:49first response to conflict is exit
1:00:53it's the same strategy really and I
1:00:55think probably a lot of uh quieter
1:00:58people who've had the experience of
1:01:00conflict growing up are pretty conflict
1:01:03diverse and I think that's it's quite
1:01:06important to toughen up on that to a
1:01:09degree
1:01:10because conflict exists all over the
1:01:13place I'm not talking about physical
1:01:14conflict which of course we want to
1:01:15avoid at all at all times but uh um
1:01:18disagreement
1:01:20or somebody being crossed with us
1:01:23or somebody being upset well sometimes
1:01:26those are necessary in life
1:01:29and responding to those in inappropriate
1:01:33ways can actually really damage
1:01:36relationships I mean I talk about four
1:01:37leeches which undermine communication
1:01:40and the fourth of those is fixing
1:01:43fixing is it's not okay for somebody to
1:01:46be upset around me don't be upset don't
1:01:49cry don't express emotion you know uh so
1:01:53it's it's a kind of smothering of
1:01:56everything that goes on around
1:01:59um I'll tell you a story about that my
1:02:01art told me um when her little sister
1:02:05was due to be born with my grandparents
1:02:08there was great excitement they
1:02:09decorated the nursery uh the the the
1:02:12room was made already came the day off
1:02:14her parents went to the hospital and she
1:02:16was beside herself with excitement aged
1:02:18about six
1:02:20they returned no baby
1:02:23never was a word said about the whole
1:02:26thing because they didn't want to upset
1:02:27her
1:02:28and what she learned from that for the
1:02:30rest of her life was you can't trust
1:02:32people people don't tell you what's
1:02:34going on you never know your people
1:02:37aren't straight you know there were a
1:02:39lot of bad lessons she learned out of
1:02:40that lack of communication
1:02:43the child had been still born it was a
1:02:45tragedy they were upset but they didn't
1:02:47share it with their daughter because
1:02:48they didn't want to upset her that's
1:02:49fixing
1:02:50and it can be enormously damaging in
1:02:52relationships to behave in that way
1:02:56obviously one wants to be sensitive you
1:02:58know you sit the child down you explain
1:03:00in little ways perhaps starting off with
1:03:03you know the baby's not coming and then
1:03:06moving on to explain what happened as
1:03:07the child gets older
1:03:10um Jane and I had to survive uh having
1:03:12uh a baby who could not survive and it
1:03:17was deeply traumatic for us
1:03:20um and I'm very glad to say that with
1:03:22Holly we involved her every step of the
1:03:24way Holly was
1:03:25uh what six at the time five I can't
1:03:29remember
1:03:30um but we brought her in you know when
1:03:34um
1:03:35Little Lily was still born we brought
1:03:39her in she met Lily we called Lily a
1:03:41name you know we did everything we
1:03:43possibly could and Holly still talks
1:03:45about Lily she talks as if she can
1:03:46communicate with her she she accounts
1:03:49her as a member of the family so we
1:03:51didn't fall into that trap of pretending
1:03:53nothing had happened and fixing
1:03:55sometimes people need to be upset you
1:03:58know Holly was upset we were upset and
1:04:00it's authentic to be upset
1:04:02so I think being that averse to upset is
1:04:07quite a dangerous thing in life
1:04:12it's funny because when you told that
1:04:13story I was engrossed
1:04:14I was engrossed for a number of reasons
1:04:16that exact point there when you said
1:04:18that I was engrossed and I've spoken a
1:04:21lot about the delivery itself of a point
1:04:23and a story but um not a lot about what
1:04:26it takes to design the content in a way
1:04:28where you can engross somebody
1:04:30what advice would you give to someone
1:04:32that is
1:04:33potentially you know presenting has a
1:04:36pitch coming up is going to do a podcast
1:04:37about how to deliver their thoughts in a
1:04:39way which is engrossing
1:04:40as it relates to the content itself
1:04:42because I can I can Hazard a guess as to
1:04:44why I was engrossed but well it's a
1:04:46story yes story we love stories
1:04:48storytelling is really really powerful I
1:04:50mean what's the number one Ted Talk of
1:04:51all time it's a talk by Sir Ken Robinson
1:04:54sadly missed dead now but see a
1:04:56wonderful man and at the heart of that
1:04:58talk is a little story he tells because
1:05:02the thesis of the talk is that we're
1:05:04educating creativity out of children
1:05:06that's what his talk is saying and he
1:05:09tells this story about a little girl
1:05:11who's drawing at the back of the class
1:05:12and she doesn't normally and the teacher
1:05:14goes to the back and says what are you
1:05:16drawing and the little girl says I'm
1:05:17drawing a picture of God
1:05:19and the teacher says but nobody knows
1:05:21what God looks like and the little girl
1:05:23says they will in a minute
1:05:26it's a classic story it takes 15 seconds
1:05:29to tell it makes me laugh every time
1:05:31that is his whole Ted talk in a
1:05:34beautiful encapsulating enchanting story
1:05:38storytelling is the best way to get any
1:05:41talk across really if you can think of a
1:05:44a metaphor
1:05:46which matches what you're trying to
1:05:49communicate to people
1:05:51in a captivating story where perhaps
1:05:54there's you know the classic elements of
1:05:55a story there's a protagonist there's an
1:05:57antagonist there are challenges there's
1:05:59a journey there's a destination there's
1:06:01help on the way from unexpected quarters
1:06:04obstacles to overcome you can do it in a
1:06:07very short space of time you can do it
1:06:10as a personal story as I did in my TED
1:06:12talk about uh my mum's negativity you
1:06:15know that's a true story that you know
1:06:17she was in hospital I took a paper in
1:06:19and I said oh look it's October the 1st
1:06:21and she said I know isn't it Dreadful
1:06:23and I you know well if somebody's that
1:06:25negative
1:06:26it's very difficult to be around them
1:06:28and that was a true story that I told
1:06:30so it's almost like uh you could have a
1:06:34little storytelling niche in your talk
1:06:36you know I'm gonna can I tell you a
1:06:38story and everybody goes oh yes come on
1:06:40SO storytelling is a massive massively
1:06:43powerful way there are books on this uh
1:06:46if anybody wants to speak in a
1:06:47captivating way become a good
1:06:49Storyteller and it will really really
1:06:50help
1:06:51but the other big part of it I always
1:06:53say
1:06:54is
1:06:56understanding the listening you're
1:06:58speaking into
1:07:00say that again
1:07:01understanding the listening that you're
1:07:03speaking into okay
1:07:06because we all have unique listening
1:07:08this is something it's the most common
1:07:10mistake I see in business in
1:07:11relationships is people thinking
1:07:13everybody listens like I do
1:07:16they don't
1:07:18our listening is unique your listening
1:07:19is as unique as your your irises your
1:07:21fingerprints your voice print and so is
1:07:24mine and they're different
1:07:26so it's a huge mistake to assume other
1:07:29people are going to receive this message
1:07:30the way I would receive it
1:07:33so it's a massively valuable tool if
1:07:36you're speaking to one person or ten
1:07:38thousand doesn't matter to say what's
1:07:40the listening I'm speaking into
1:07:44what's the listening I'm speaking into
1:07:46who is this person
1:07:48what's their listening where will it
1:07:51have come from or who are these 10 000
1:07:53people because in a big room you have a
1:07:55Gestalt listening
1:07:57which changes over time
1:07:59you know that I've done talks
1:08:01immediately after lunch in what they
1:08:03call the graveyard slot he's a Ted
1:08:05talker he can cope with that and
1:08:07everybody's a bit woozy the blood's all
1:08:09gone to their guts they're a bit tired
1:08:11they're not very bright you know or
1:08:13there's the final slot in the day just
1:08:15before people are leaving when they're
1:08:17all desperate to go and have a drink in
1:08:18the bar or something you know there are
1:08:20different listenings through the day
1:08:22and different listenings from person to
1:08:24person
1:08:25so it's not a fixed thing and it's
1:08:27important to be sensitive
1:08:29and actually do you know what I've
1:08:31discovered is all you have to do is ask
1:08:34the question
1:08:35what's the listening and you become
1:08:38really good at spotting it I don't know
1:08:41how it might be tiny body language cues
1:08:45it might be pheromones it might be
1:08:47intuition whatever it is you will if you
1:08:50pay attention to it and you ask that
1:08:52question consciously at least you're
1:08:54respecting the other person enough to
1:08:56say this person speaks really slowly so
1:09:00I should probably slow my Pace down a
1:09:02little bit
1:09:03or this is a really really fast person
1:09:05so let's be Buzzy here or you know they
1:09:08might have cultural or uh they might
1:09:11have political views or something like
1:09:13that that you need to be sensitive to if
1:09:15you're trying to achieve something
1:09:18the the point as well about about
1:09:20storytelling I was I was fascinated by
1:09:23it because it reminded me of um
1:09:25my time at Social chain we bought the
1:09:27social media company
1:09:29um we never had us outbound sales team
1:09:31our strategy was kind of there was maybe
1:09:32fourfolds but the two that are most
1:09:34pertinent what I'm to the point I'm
1:09:35making are personal branding and
1:09:38speaking on stage so we grow our
1:09:40business from nothing to tens and tens
1:09:42and tens of millions in Revenue the
1:09:43agency business the global business 600
1:09:45700 million in Revenue never with an
1:09:48outbound sales team and the the sole
1:09:51thesis which I don't think people ever
1:09:52realize who are trying to scale an
1:09:54agency is we just told really great
1:09:57stories and the best way that I can
1:10:00demonstrate this is I remember my first
1:10:02talk when I started social chain at
1:10:04maybe 21 years old and I was in London
1:10:06and I woke up on stage and I say
1:10:09that's exactly why you were kicked out
1:10:11of school you're incapable of listening
1:10:13to anybody and you always think you know
1:10:15a better way don't call me or the family
1:10:18until you go back to University
1:10:20and with that my mum hung up the phone
1:10:23that's how I started all of my talks for
1:10:25about four years I'm trying to sell you
1:10:27social media advertising here and at the
1:10:29end of this the presentation you would
1:10:31find out what happened with minor mum's
1:10:33relationship so it'd be this heart and
1:10:34it would say and me and my mum have
1:10:36never had a better relationship and I
1:10:38genuinely you know of all the things we
1:10:40did as a business I genuinely believe
1:10:41that I was speaking 50 weeks a year I
1:10:44was going to every corner of the world
1:10:45meeting every brand our biggest brands
1:10:47like Coca-Cola they all came from
1:10:48hearing that exact talk with about my
1:10:50mum
1:10:51um
1:10:52the conventional and the the normal
1:10:56thing to do is to bring information
1:10:58I'll give you as much information as I
1:11:00can you see it in every slide deck every
1:11:02pitch deck but we all know from a human
1:11:04level the best part of this conversation
1:11:06is going to be the stories yeah of
1:11:07course it's going to be engaging people
1:11:09and causing them to be curious
1:11:12curiosity is absolutely fundamental in
1:11:15listening now I talk about four C's of
1:11:18listening which are
1:11:20um compassion
1:11:22for the other person for the audience
1:11:24whatever it might be commitment because
1:11:28it takes time and effort to listen
1:11:31listening is work it's not just a
1:11:34capability yes we have ears but we
1:11:36actually have to put things down focus
1:11:38and so forth Consciousness that you're
1:11:41actually doing something now this is an
1:11:44action this is not something that goes
1:11:46on in the background
1:11:47and curiosity
1:11:49and if you can engender those things in
1:11:51people
1:11:52especially the Curiosity which we get
1:11:54with stories especially if you start a
1:11:56story and you don't finish it
1:11:58come on Stephen we want to know what
1:12:00happens at the end yeah yeah so you then
1:12:02got the bit in the Middle where they're
1:12:03all going I really want to know what
1:12:04happened at the end and then you give
1:12:06them the end at the at the end to
1:12:09satisfy them that is a brilliant way of
1:12:11engaging people
1:12:14could listening to this and
1:12:16actually that's funny because I was
1:12:17actually reflecting on we I told you my
1:12:19company in San Francisco has just raised
1:12:20a lot of money and I broke all the rules
1:12:22that I've just said it's just it's just
1:12:24there's 10 slides of just information I
1:12:26mean it worked but I think it's funny
1:12:28because I actually thought I don't
1:12:30actually care if it worked I would have
1:12:31liked to do it my way yeah you know well
1:12:32also because you're then kind of
1:12:34conforming to the the Norms out there
1:12:36which is that's where everybody does
1:12:37stuff that's a deck you know I mean I
1:12:39hate that word deck anyway but you know
1:12:41here here let me show have you got a
1:12:43good deck yeah but there's something in
1:12:46in the actual design of the deck that
1:12:48says way more about you than the
1:12:49information ever will yeah and it's
1:12:50funny because this is genuinely what's
1:12:52going on in my head as he was talking
1:12:53about storytelling is I was thinking
1:12:55about how I should have structured sorry
1:12:56for not listening but you just inspired
1:12:58me to to go from this tangent in my head
1:12:59cool I was thinking about how much I
1:13:01should have started that deck as a story
1:13:03and that would have been so much more
1:13:05gripping yeah
1:13:06um versus just like put your logo on the
1:13:08front and then you know you waffle into
1:13:10like stats and figures I broke my own
1:13:13rule there and I'm kind of disappointed
1:13:14my own personal philosophy which I
1:13:15consider to be the most important thing
1:13:16for not doing that it's a struggle for
1:13:19me as well I mean I'm writing a book
1:13:20right now about sound and what I'm
1:13:24trying really hard to do is to get human
1:13:26stories into it you know but I have a
1:13:30terrible memory and when I read great
1:13:32books by people I mean I I read you know
1:13:35books by people who've written amazing
1:13:36books about all sorts of different
1:13:37subjects
1:13:39and what impresses me is they say on
1:13:41March the 5th 1992 I had this
1:13:44conversation with this person who walked
1:13:46you know that way and did this thing and
1:13:48said this thing and I think how how the
1:13:50do you remember with you I mean I
1:13:52have no idea what I was doing in 1992.
1:13:55I don't remember my childhood so it is
1:13:58you know it's quite a big problem if
1:14:00like me you were kind of in a miasma of
1:14:02I mean it's very good because I'm a
1:14:03great believer in be here now and living
1:14:05in the common in the in the the current
1:14:07moment living in this instant which is
1:14:09all the life we ever have this instant
1:14:11the the future hasn't happened the past
1:14:14has there's nothing we can do about
1:14:16either of them much at this instant
1:14:19so being here now is really important to
1:14:21me
1:14:22but it's kind of become an excuse almost
1:14:24for me for getting everything I do too
1:14:27imagine imagine how many I have the
1:14:29privilege of sitting here with the
1:14:30smartest people in the world who are
1:14:32giving me all these amazing things so
1:14:34you're massively wise yeah you would
1:14:36think so but I sit here and I go oh my
1:14:38God flag I'm gonna write that down later
1:14:40and then we get an hour and a half in
1:14:41and I'm just my it's like I've got this
1:14:43short-term memory yeah the thing I I
1:14:45fall back on is I go the best stuff will
1:14:47stay with me because it will help me in
1:14:49such a deep emotional way that I won't
1:14:51be able to forget so maybe I'm just
1:14:53absorbing the very best well maybe and
1:14:55also you do have the privilege of having
1:14:57recorded it all in high quality video
1:14:59and audio so you can watch it back I
1:15:01don't always have the time to watch all
1:15:03of them yeah but in the gym I try and
1:15:05make sure I listen to them What would
1:15:06life be like if we could watch back
1:15:08everything that we've done all the
1:15:10conversations that we've had and learn
1:15:12from them blimey pretty scary yeah
1:15:16I'd be a lot better as a of a human
1:15:18being me too I know I tend to see life
1:15:21it's it's a spiral staircase so the
1:15:23important thing to me is to grow a
1:15:25little bit every day that's the
1:15:26important thing to learn something you
1:15:28know even if it's how not to do
1:15:30something
1:15:31so you know when I meet people that
1:15:34evidently are making a mistake or doing
1:15:36something wrong it's okay I learned not
1:15:38to do that doesn't work very well
1:15:40why have you struggled to grow
1:15:43um but you have continually intended to
1:15:47uh I would say uh in my nutrition more
1:15:51than anything else probably I am very
1:15:54fortunate to live with Jane who is a
1:15:57four-time world champion martial artist
1:15:59a health and fitness expert I train with
1:16:01her multiple times a week so you know
1:16:04I'm a 64 year old man who can easily
1:16:07touch his toes and uh is you know my
1:16:10core strength and my flexibility are
1:16:12amazing for somebody of my age
1:16:14but I still eat too much I really enjoy
1:16:17food and unfortunately not always the
1:16:20right food I think that's again you know
1:16:23that's something that comes from our
1:16:24upbringing from our childhood where food
1:16:27was very much a part of our family and
1:16:28it was a reward and it was um you know
1:16:31my mother was a very very good cook as
1:16:33well so there was always too much of it
1:16:35and it was like a trough with me and my
1:16:37brother sort of having huge helpings so
1:16:41um I'm I I became acclimatized from a
1:16:43very young age to having huge helpings
1:16:45of not necessarily very healthy things
1:16:48it's a tough one isn't it to adjust
1:16:50one's upbringing and relationship with
1:16:54food in that way so kale is good really
1:16:59okay I have to kind of really learn some
1:17:03of those things and get away from Habits
1:17:06which have been with me for 60 years or
1:17:09more it's so deeply emotional though and
1:17:11that's what we don't really ever
1:17:12appreciate we think it's just a a
1:17:14decision yes or no but it's actually
1:17:16such a deeply emotional thing all of
1:17:18these things are yeah um deeply
1:17:20psychological so I actually I was funny
1:17:22I was talking to my friends about this
1:17:23the other day and I said I think if you
1:17:24will because we're all trying to get in
1:17:26shape and we're working out together Etc
1:17:28um and my one of my friends was like
1:17:30well I'm gonna go on a diet I was like
1:17:32the problem with that is it's not
1:17:33sustainable what you're doing there is
1:17:34you're you're depriving yourself you're
1:17:36actually sacrificing something you want
1:17:38to do how do you get I said I think that
1:17:40the best way for all of us to get
1:17:41healthier is actually to go see a
1:17:43therapist
1:17:43you know what you just said I absolutely
1:17:46resonate with because Jane's always
1:17:47saying to me that many times with
1:17:48clients they come in and it's more of a
1:17:50therapy session than a physical workout
1:17:51because they're talking as they're doing
1:17:53things and it's the talking that helps
1:17:55them more than perhaps the exercise or
1:17:57at least as much so you know I do get
1:18:00that and and adjusting one's whole
1:18:02psyche to see things that were perceived
1:18:06as treats in childhood as not really
1:18:09treats and things that were perceived as
1:18:12punishments or um you know really
1:18:14negatively in charge of your Hail yeah
1:18:17exercise go for a run do something you
1:18:19know these things are actually good for
1:18:21us and they're really important to do
1:18:23it's funny because there is a sound
1:18:24Associated to food yeah in the sense of
1:18:26just a from a psychology or an emotional
1:18:29perspective you know sweets
1:18:32it always sounds like that well the
1:18:34sweet rapper's crinkle for a reason oh
1:18:36yeah and so the crisp crisp packets are
1:18:39crunchy for a reason uh because if you
1:18:41had crisp packets in soggy you know
1:18:44rubbery rubberized containers you
1:18:47wouldn't think the crisps were going to
1:18:48be fresh or as nice so the sound of
1:18:51packaging certainly has a big effect on
1:18:53the way we perceive taste I mean sound
1:18:56and taste are very Associated I've never
1:18:58heard broccoli said with excitement but
1:19:01I've heard McDonald's and sweets yeah
1:19:03and Coke you know yeah but also from a
1:19:05marketing and branding perspective you
1:19:07know Brands like Coca-Cola spend so much
1:19:08of their time trying to associate even
1:19:18a bottle so sound has been used in
1:19:20advertising for many many years in a
1:19:22very profitable way I think the first
1:19:24sound was Wheaties way back in about
1:19:261926 and it was a four-part barber shop
1:19:30quartet who had a little song so have
1:19:32you tried Wheaties and it massively
1:19:36revolutionized the sales of Wheaties and
1:19:38from that point on it's been huge and
1:19:41appetizing
1:19:42it was only a few years ago that I got a
1:19:45ston to the term
1:19:47audio branding and then I got really
1:19:50obsessed with it because obviously
1:19:51running a podcast people are listening
1:19:53to our podcast every week it's in their
1:19:55ears there's certain sounds they're
1:19:56familiar with there's even certain
1:19:57sayings at the start the podcast where I
1:19:58say I hope nobody's listening for you
1:20:00I'll keep this to yourself they've
1:20:01become accustomed to
1:20:03um what is what is it to have a good
1:20:05audio brand and how does if because
1:20:08there's multiple CEOs and brand owners
1:20:09that are listening to this that have
1:20:10never considered the fact that they have
1:20:12an audio brand as well how does one go
1:20:15about doing that is it important
1:20:18well the first thing to say is that all
1:20:21businesses all organizations and all
1:20:23brands are making sound already
1:20:25because I've had a conversation lots of
1:20:27times with marketing directors or CMOS
1:20:28where I've said you know this is how
1:20:30powerful it is and they go oh maybe we
1:20:32should start doing some sound you
1:20:33already are it's just not designed it's
1:20:36accidental it might be the sound of your
1:20:38delivery trucks pissing people off at
1:20:40four o'clock in the morning might be the
1:20:42sound of your uh your on hold music or
1:20:45your automated call handling system
1:20:47press one for this press two for that
1:20:49you know nine levels later you're still
1:20:51going those kind of sounds can really be
1:20:53damaging and can lose
1:20:56unbelievable amounts of money for a
1:20:58business I mean how many times have we
1:21:00slammed the phone down in frustration
1:21:01that one of those systems which is
1:21:03designed by a technical person not a
1:21:05marketing person
1:21:06um which doesn't I mean older people
1:21:08hate them and we have an aging
1:21:11demographic in every Western Country so
1:21:14they're becoming less and less popular
1:21:16so sounds like those can be enormously
1:21:19damaging the sound of your corporate
1:21:21reception the number of corporate
1:21:23receptions I've walked into where
1:21:24they've got a TV been on the wall with
1:21:26news on and I remember you know when 9
1:21:2911 happened I walked into the reception
1:21:31of mechanics and in London they had big
1:21:33TV screens with burning skyscrapers on
1:21:36them
1:21:37how are you expecting to have a good
1:21:38meeting when you inflict that kind of
1:21:41thing on people I suppose it's supposed
1:21:43to say we're current and we're up to the
1:21:45minute and we're you know in tune with
1:21:47the world's events but news generally is
1:21:50bad news I think it's unthinking yeah it
1:21:53is someone just said put something on
1:21:55there if you have a screen in reception
1:21:56they have something playing about your
1:21:58company that's informative that engages
1:22:01people not you know news especially not
1:22:04commercial news which may have ads from
1:22:06your competitors showing in your own
1:22:08reception so those kind of sounds I
1:22:11think are very mindless there's a huge
1:22:13amount of mindlessness about sound we
1:22:16design for the eyes largely and it's not
1:22:19that often that companies think about
1:22:20designing with the ears
1:22:22so very often you have a company that
1:22:24spends masses of money on visuals
1:22:26whether it's a retailer you know like a
1:22:28supermarket and doesn't think about the
1:22:31appalling sound of checkout beeps and
1:22:34trolleys clashing and some awful tinned
1:22:37music coming across on tiny little
1:22:39loudspeakers that were never designed to
1:22:41play music and so forth you know the
1:22:43cacophony that you and I have to go
1:22:45through a lot of the time in life which
1:22:46is
1:22:47the result of people not designing what
1:22:50brands do that well
1:22:51do sound well yeah generally
1:22:54well
1:22:56I think that Airlines and airplane
1:22:59manufacturers and car manufacturers are
1:23:02getting very good at it in terms of
1:23:04Designing the Sonic experience of using
1:23:07the airplane I mean there is an
1:23:09unbelievable noise on the fuselage of an
1:23:11airplane traveling at 500 miles an hour
1:23:13and inside you don't hear it so the
1:23:15design in there is very good and the
1:23:17same with cars these days most of them
1:23:19sound very good although there's a thing
1:23:22with electric cars we have electric cars
1:23:25at slow speed they're very silent and it
1:23:27can be dangerous so you need a noise to
1:23:31warn people the car is coming
1:23:33um and you know a lot of the time they
1:23:35make a nice chord or something like that
1:23:37as they're moving through
1:23:40um brands that have great powerful Sonic
1:23:43logos there are plenty of those you
1:23:44think of Intel for example down down
1:23:48which is something you know if I say to
1:23:50people can you sing intol's logo lots of
1:23:52people can if I said to you can you draw
1:23:54Intel's logo
1:23:55no not really
1:23:58squarish thing isn't it or something
1:24:00that sound which was designed by a guy
1:24:03called Walter was our is worth hundreds
1:24:06of millions of dollars to Intel and
1:24:09brand value
1:24:10and they have batteries of lawyers who
1:24:13approve any tiny change to it because
1:24:14it's a it's a trademark for them and
1:24:17it's a really important one that's
1:24:19consistency right because we've heard it
1:24:20so much yeah is there anything else
1:24:22other than consistency for people that
1:24:23are thinking about their sonic signature
1:24:25and their content in their podcast in
1:24:26their brand videos whatever is the is
1:24:29there anything else other than just
1:24:30making sure people hear it a lot
1:24:32yeah so well if you're going to hear it
1:24:34a lot it has to be not irritating as
1:24:36well and there's there have been some
1:24:37pretty irritating Sonic logos but I mean
1:24:40if you think back we talked a moment ago
1:24:42about the history of advertising and
1:24:43sound through advertising I can remember
1:24:45from my childhood so this is addressed
1:24:48to your older listeners uh things like
1:24:51the fairy liquid jingle you know four
1:24:52hands that do dishes those kind of
1:24:54things that was from 1965 or something
1:24:57and I still remember it right now so
1:24:59there there are things that can be
1:25:01enormously iconic and Powerful uh from
1:25:04the the the Tony the Tiger there great
1:25:07those kind of things which last for
1:25:10years and years and years there's been
1:25:11at least five Tonys saying that it's
1:25:13gone on so long they've kind of all died
1:25:15off and been replaced
1:25:17um is there an emotion to even though
1:25:19it's a jingle we talked about earlier
1:25:21how storytelling implants it into your
1:25:23brain in a way that information can't is
1:25:26there a certain emotion to the sound or
1:25:28the jingle that is important big time
1:25:30because sound effects has four ways and
1:25:34this is a conversation which is really
1:25:36interesting to me I mean it was my first
1:25:38Ted Talk it's not the most watched of of
1:25:41the TED talks and it's something which
1:25:44is
1:25:45um the reaction I get from people is is
1:25:47often the same it's well that's
1:25:49absolutely obvious but I never thought
1:25:51of it I've never been conscious of it
1:25:53you know we're very very ocular in the
1:25:56Western World particularly and we're
1:25:58very oriented around the eyes there are
1:25:59loads of Design Awards in the world
1:26:00they're all for how things look
1:26:02there's no Design Awards for how things
1:26:03sound it's it's bizarre architects
1:26:06are all about how things look very often
1:26:09and they design things that sound awful
1:26:11and aren't fit for purpose because they
1:26:13look great and that's all they care
1:26:14about
1:26:15so
1:26:17it is very important to become sensitive
1:26:18sound changes your body
1:26:20physically so for example I could
1:26:23entrain your heartbeat if you go if I
1:26:25drop you in a nightclub with pounding
1:26:27dance music at 140 beats a minute your
1:26:29heart rate will immediately increase or
1:26:31if there's a sudden sound
1:26:34you got me yeah so your heart rate just
1:26:37jumped because you had a shot of
1:26:38cortisol your fight flight hormone and
1:26:40noradrenaline and that gets you ready to
1:26:42fight or flee so your heart rate your
1:26:45breathing your hormone secretions your
1:26:47brain waves they all get changed by
1:26:49sound
1:26:51that's the first way sound changes your
1:26:53feelings think of music it's the most
1:26:55obvious example but for me you know my
1:26:57favorite sound in the world is the sound
1:26:59of rain on leaves outside the window
1:27:01Summer Rain on leaves outside the window
1:27:03well that's enormously calming to me
1:27:06other people it might be gentle surf or
1:27:08something like that so sound can affect
1:27:11our feelings bird song makes people feel
1:27:14secure
1:27:15because the birds have been here far
1:27:17longer than we have and we've learned
1:27:19over hundreds of thousands of years so
1:27:21when the birds are happily tweeting
1:27:22things are safe we're okay
1:27:25if they suddenly stop you need to be
1:27:27worried because Birds stop it there's a
1:27:29big Predator like a lion okay
1:27:32then the Third Way sound effects is how
1:27:34well you can think cognitively you know
1:27:36we are all completely used to the the
1:27:39would you be quite I'm trying to think
1:27:41here especially people's conversations
1:27:44the most damaging sound of all it's
1:27:46really difficult to think which is why
1:27:47we are one-third as productive in open
1:27:51plan offices as we are in quiet working
1:27:54spaces one-third
1:27:56if we're trying to do knowledge working
1:27:58you know manipulate
1:27:59words or numbers in our head and write
1:28:02for example so I have friends at the BBC
1:28:05you know the BBC have gutted that entire
1:28:07building in Portland Place and it's now
1:28:09got a basement where they all sit
1:28:11writing with it four floors of space
1:28:13above them
1:28:14and it drives them nuts if you're a
1:28:16journalist trying to write a story and
1:28:18you're finding on a deadline and you've
1:28:20got people around you talking it is
1:28:21really difficult to concentrate
1:28:25so that's uh in terms of cognition how
1:28:28well we can think is affected by noise
1:28:30around us or sound around us
1:28:32um
1:28:33and finally sound changes our Behavior
1:28:35it changes what you do and what I do
1:28:37every day
1:28:38there's a brilliant study actually which
1:28:40was done some Years Ago by some
1:28:41academics they had a supermarket with
1:28:43two Gondola ends French wine on one
1:28:46German wine on the other one visually
1:28:49identical and all they did was to
1:28:51alternate the music so day one you had a
1:28:53bit of French or accordion music day two
1:28:56you had a bit of German kind of umpire
1:28:58music and they kept doing that for an
1:29:00extended period of time
1:29:02on the French music days French wine
1:29:04outsold German wine by five bottles to
1:29:07one which may not be surprising it does
1:29:09sell more in the world so okay we might
1:29:12expect that but
1:29:14on the German music days German wine
1:29:16outsold French wine by three bottles to
1:29:19one
1:29:20now that is a massive shift in behavior
1:29:22and that's not people coming in going ah
1:29:25German music therefore I shall buy a
1:29:27bottle of German wine they were they
1:29:30weren't even aware of the music most of
1:29:31the people who were surveyed they hadn't
1:29:33noticed so this is unconscious response
1:29:36to a sound situation that's how much
1:29:38sound is changing our behavior all the
1:29:40time and so part of my message part of
1:29:43my my whole thrust and the difference I
1:29:46want to make in the world is to get
1:29:47people listening consciously
1:29:49so that we start to become aware of the
1:29:52ways in which sound is changing our
1:29:54bodies Our emotions our thinking and our
1:29:58Behavior so we can start to take
1:30:00responsibility for the sound we consume
1:30:03and possibly even more importantly
1:30:05responsibility for the sound we make
1:30:07with our voice
1:30:09and you know also willy-nilly inflicting
1:30:13sound on other people possibly unkindly
1:30:15uh which very often happens also
1:30:18everyone listening to this podcast you
1:30:20know and I even imagine the title that
1:30:22will work best when we do our a b tests
1:30:23will be about how to be a great speaker
1:30:25we've talked about why that is why we
1:30:27all want to be heard more it gives us a
1:30:29sense of significance helps us to feel
1:30:31valued which makes us part of the tribe
1:30:32and all of these things but you as as we
1:30:35said at this very start of this
1:30:36conversation you really are leading a a
1:30:38crusade to get people to listen more why
1:30:41should that be the title of the podcast
1:30:42why is that potentially even more
1:30:45important
1:30:47um to the world and if we all started to
1:30:49listen a bit more why would the world be
1:30:51such a better place personally and
1:30:52globally because I think with conscious
1:30:55listening the result is always
1:30:57understanding
1:30:59and that's what we need
1:31:01understanding in the world de phrase
1:31:04conflict it means that people can
1:31:06co-exist side by side with people with
1:31:08whom they disagree and we've seen the
1:31:10way that's not happening in the
1:31:12polarization of politics for example in
1:31:14America where it becomes
1:31:17a hated thing for somebody to disagree
1:31:19with your views uh you know that we're
1:31:22seeing such polarization in so many
1:31:24countries now and that's all about this
1:31:27thing of being right and not listening
1:31:28to other people not not trying to learn
1:31:30anything but becoming more and more
1:31:33entrenched in a set of opinions which
1:31:38you know they may be useful to you but
1:31:41is that true is that universally true
1:31:44would you Brook any kind of
1:31:47antithesis to that any kind of counter
1:31:50view any competing solutions to the
1:31:54world how can you grow if you are stuck
1:31:57in a bunker
1:31:58and you're listening through a tiny
1:32:01little slit of an entrenched listening
1:32:03position that I'm writing everybody else
1:32:05is wrong certainly on this issue
1:32:08so to me a passion for listening is
1:32:12about coexisting with people
1:32:15I don't agree with I may not like but
1:32:18they have a right to be here and they
1:32:19have a reason there's usually a good
1:32:21reason for what people think or what
1:32:23people do often
1:32:25and you know I'm not saying
1:32:28pity the mass murderer and so forth
1:32:31necessarily you know there'll be
1:32:32possibly reasons for that as well we
1:32:35certainly need to understand them to
1:32:36stop it ever happening again
1:32:39so listening even to people like that I
1:32:41think there's things to learn I mean how
1:32:43could you ever become like that and why
1:32:46would you ever behave like that
1:32:48so if we just dismiss people that we
1:32:50don't approve of or people we don't like
1:32:52then
1:32:53we don't learn very much at all so I
1:32:55think listening is you know I said this
1:32:56I did a tedx talk in Athens the Cradle
1:32:59of democracy and I went on stage and
1:33:01said listening is the sound of democracy
1:33:04because without it it's very hard if I'm
1:33:08the minority
1:33:09it's very hard to accept the majority
1:33:12view isn't it you're all wrong and I'm
1:33:14gonna fight well that is just a recipe
1:33:17for recipe for Anarchy conflict War as
1:33:21we've seen
1:33:22whereas if I can say okay I can
1:33:23understand why you all think that I'll
1:33:25try and change your opinion but you know
1:33:28I'm not de-personalizing you I'm
1:33:30understanding that you're human beings
1:33:32you have a different view from me and I
1:33:33can see why you got to that view
1:33:35then I can grow you can grow we can
1:33:38possibly come to some sort of synthesis
1:33:40thinking a lot about modern listening
1:33:43there and the tools we have to listen to
1:33:44each other one of them being social
1:33:45media yeah one of the things that's so
1:33:47tempting to do for all of us which I've
1:33:48refrained about two years ago I made a
1:33:50very conscious decision to
1:33:52to do this but I used to just unfollow
1:33:55people that
1:33:56I didn't like what they said so like I I
1:33:58wouldn't follow Trump for example or
1:33:59like Nigel farage or like people that I
1:34:01thought were just idiots who had
1:34:03ulterior motives whatever I would just
1:34:04unfollow them and what I'm the problem
1:34:06with that approach is I was as I saw
1:34:08other Echo Chambers emerging online is
1:34:10that I wasn't progressing in any way I
1:34:12was as you've said it like I was
1:34:15increasing the size of my information my
1:34:18exposure therefore my ability to have
1:34:20empathy or to understand people out that
1:34:21didn't think like me so I did a I
1:34:24started following people who were who I
1:34:27who made me feel uncomfortable it's the
1:34:29best way to describe it yeah well
1:34:30uncomfortable is a call for reassessment
1:34:33isn't it yeah and that's really
1:34:35important but I do think social media
1:34:38has got a lot to answer for in the way
1:34:39that it's been abused by people
1:34:42um with trolling and particularly with
1:34:44shaming there's a brilliant talk by um
1:34:47John Ronson who's who's become a friend
1:34:48of mine over the years on social media
1:34:51shaming and if anybody hasn't seen that
1:34:52I do recommend you watch it because it
1:34:54is truly chilling to recount how a mob
1:34:58can beat somebody out of their job for
1:35:03what was originally quite an innocent
1:35:04post
1:35:06so we now see this you know we see slurs
1:35:08being um unacceptable words being
1:35:11labeled on top of people uh who find it
1:35:15difficult to defend themselves whether
1:35:16we're talking about racist or we're
1:35:18talking about homophobe you know at the
1:35:20moment that person is labeled with that
1:35:22thing it's very hard to get the stain
1:35:24off isn't it and then you get a mob who
1:35:26go on and start castigating the person
1:35:29without ever understanding what caused
1:35:31this in the first place
1:35:32so I think we've got to be very careful
1:35:34about the way these things are used and
1:35:36without listening to the person and what
1:35:39their views really are
1:35:42it's all too easy to get into a kind of
1:35:44knee-jerk mob Lynch Mob kind of
1:35:48mentality where we're being right it
1:35:50comes back to that again doesn't it and
1:35:52that person is wrong and must be
1:35:54punished or shamed or canceled or
1:35:56whatever it may be so I think listening
1:35:59is really important and as you say to
1:36:01people who make us feel uncomfortable
1:36:02well that's a warning sign that perhaps
1:36:05we need to reassess or analyze or what
1:36:07is going on here why is this making me
1:36:09feel uncomfortable is it actually
1:36:11against my views or my values or is it
1:36:13against my social conditioning and would
1:36:16my friends disapprove of me if I thought
1:36:17that that kind of thing I'd love to live
1:36:20in a world where we um we all including
1:36:22myself we're much better at listening
1:36:24and also accepting ideas that made us
1:36:26feel uncomfortable that's in part what I
1:36:28think we're trying to do here is to have
1:36:30conversations to see ideas Collide that
1:36:33help to move the the world forward
1:36:36um
1:36:37and I only started thinking about that
1:36:39the other day when we had a guest on
1:36:40called Africa Brook that maybe that's
1:36:42ultimately the the net benefit of this
1:36:44is just Fearless conversations in a
1:36:46medium where no one's going to be edited
1:36:47or or cut down and manipulated that will
1:36:50hopefully push the conversation forward
1:36:52and I'm not right and my guests are
1:36:53sometimes it's just all opinion
1:36:55um we do have a closing tradition on
1:36:57this podcast where the previous guest
1:36:58asks a question for the next guest they
1:37:01write it in the book
1:37:02Jack gets to see it I don't get to see
1:37:04it
1:37:05um until now so give me a second to read
1:37:07it they don't know who they're writing
1:37:09it for
1:37:10and you will also be asked to do the
1:37:12same I have been dreading this moment
1:37:13really why it's so funny that everyone
1:37:15gets really nervous now yeah and I'll
1:37:17just say you know everyone takes a long
1:37:18time to answer but then they also take
1:37:20an even longer amount of time to think
1:37:21of a question to write okay
1:37:25okay
1:37:27this person wrote see they've really
1:37:29given themselves away but
1:37:31I have played sport for a living
1:37:34I've presented I've done acting
1:37:37and I've sang songs
1:37:39but I would still love to do one more
1:37:42thing with my life
1:37:46what's your one more thing
1:37:54I think for me
1:37:56um I've resisted doing a lot of
1:37:59um
1:38:01things that I know intellectually are
1:38:03really really good for me
1:38:06so I can probably crystallize that we
1:38:10haven't in Scotland where I live we have
1:38:12a thing called Monroe's
1:38:14these are a set of Peaks
1:38:16I think they're over
1:38:183000 feet or something like that I can't
1:38:21remember how big they are but they're
1:38:22you know it's sizeable and
1:38:25um
1:38:26I saw an amazing story the other day
1:38:28about an 83 year old man I think who has
1:38:33just completed climbing all of the
1:38:34monroes there are a lot of monroes
1:38:36you're talking about more than a hundred
1:38:38and he's just completed that I mean
1:38:41these are serious
1:38:42uh schleps you know and at his age he's
1:38:46just completed it was a wonderful
1:38:47picture of all his friends with walking
1:38:48sticks forming a kind of
1:38:51um Corridor for him to walk through on
1:38:53his final complete
1:38:56um
1:38:56I would love to take on doing at least
1:39:00one Monroe a year
1:39:03as a walk Jen and I have just got into
1:39:05serious walking where we live in orkney
1:39:08and we did Eight Mile Walk the other day
1:39:10and I was virtually crippled the
1:39:12following day I couldn't move so I'd
1:39:15love to get to the stage where I get my
1:39:16body used to that kind of thing it is so
1:39:19beautiful to be out in the fresh air to
1:39:21be in beautiful scenery to be exercising
1:39:23my body in that way to be losing weight
1:39:25to be becoming fitter I mean it's just
1:39:28nothing but good from the whole thing
1:39:30and taking it on to do it up on Monroe
1:39:33that would be a serious challenge for me
1:39:34so one a year for the rest of my life
1:39:38would be fantastic
1:39:40amazing and I'm gonna find out if that
1:39:42happens so me and Jane are gonna stay in
1:39:44touch fair enough
1:39:48um and maybe I'll come do a couple of
1:39:49the monroes with you because I've got
1:39:50increasingly um interested in like
1:39:52hiking we'd love it lately so do invite
1:39:54me if you do end up doing it but um
1:39:55definitely thank you so much for your
1:39:57time today thank you Stephen you've
1:39:58given me so much from through your
1:40:00content and the videos and especially
1:40:01the TED Talks you've made me it's one of
1:40:03those conversations that we've had today
1:40:04but also from watching your videos where
1:40:06I start to reassess all of the as I
1:40:08describe it like the unthinking I've
1:40:09done with sound I just haven't thought
1:40:11about it enough and it through this
1:40:13conversation I even thought about our
1:40:15little jingle at the start of the Diary
1:40:16of a CEO which we've always had since
1:40:18episode one and to be honest I've never
1:40:19really thought about it it's just been
1:40:21there and it's and that kind of
1:40:23reassessment because I completely agree
1:40:25with everything you've said about the
1:40:26importance of sound but if I agree then
1:40:28why aren't my actions
1:40:30and my why isn't it such a high priority
1:40:32in the way that I'm thinking and
1:40:34designing the things that I create so
1:40:36yeah
1:40:38and also everything you've said about
1:40:39conflict resolution and relationships
1:40:41and the importance of that sound plays
1:40:42there it's such an important
1:40:43conversation one that I hope we can
1:40:45continue long after this podcast but I
1:40:46just wanted to say thank you for your
1:40:47time today thank you for listening
1:40:50that's a yeah it's a lovely way to end
1:40:52thank you for speaking and thank you for
1:40:53listening it means the world to me thank
1:40:55you thank you Stephen
1:40:56I had a few words to say about one of my
1:40:58sponsors on this podcast my girlfriend
1:41:00came upstairs yesterday when I was
1:41:01having a shower and she said to me that
1:41:03she tried the heel protein shake which
1:41:05lives on my fridge over there and she
1:41:06said it's amazing low calories you get
1:41:08your 20 odd grams of protein you get
1:41:10your 26 vitamins and minerals and it's
1:41:12nutritionally complete in the protein
1:41:13space there's lots of things but it's
1:41:15hard to find something that is nice
1:41:17especially when consumed just with water
1:41:19and that is nutritionally complete and
1:41:22that has about 100 calories in total
1:41:24while also giving you your 20 grams of
1:41:27protein if you haven't tried the heel
1:41:30protein product do give it a try The
1:41:32Salted Caramel one if you put some ice
1:41:34cubes in it and you put it in a blender
1:41:36and you try it is as good as pretty much
1:41:40any milkshake on the market just mixed
1:41:42with water it's been a game changer for
1:41:43me because I'm trying to drop my calorie
1:41:45intake and I'm trying to be a little bit
1:41:46more healthy with my diet so this is
1:41:49where heel fits in my life thank you
1:41:50heal for making a product that I
1:41:51actually like The Salted Caramel is my
1:41:53favorite I've got the banana one here
1:41:54which is the one my girlfriend likes but
1:41:56for me salted caramel is the one
1:42:00[Music]
1:42:12thank you
1:42:17[Music]

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