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The Secret to Happiness with Harvard professor Robert Waldinger | A Bit of Optimism Podcast — Transcript

by Simon Sinek · 8,312 words · 1,142 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00you might know this because you are a
0:02psychiatrist how many psychiatrists does
0:04it take to change a light
0:06bulb one exactly one but the light bulb
0:10has to really want to
0:11[Music]
0:12change we all want to live a happy life
0:15of course in fact we want it so much
0:18that there is a whole cottage industry
0:20built around helping us find it but what
0:23does a happy life actually look like in
0:25the 1930s some Harvard scientists
0:27started tracking 724 teenag
0:30they kept detailed records about how
0:32they lived their lives and what gave
0:34them satisfaction they tracked all 724
0:37people for their entire lives only 10 of
0:41them are still living today and they are
0:42all in their hundreds but just like the
0:44people the study tracked the scientists
0:47got old too so the director of the study
0:49was handed to subsequent generations and
0:52Dr Robert waldinger is the current
0:54director a position he's held for the
0:56past 22 years so he knows a lot about
1:00what actually leads to a happy life I
1:02wanted to know the things he's learning
1:05I also wanted to know how he's changed
1:07his own life as a result of the data he
1:10reads and let's just say I'm making a
1:12few changes to how I live my life too
1:16this is a bit of
1:22optimism I don't know how to ask this
1:24without it sounding
1:27um not polite but
1:31the only way I can think to ask
1:33it how come they picked you to lead the
1:37the the the happiness study well well I
1:41you're not the only one who asked that
1:42question I asked that question did you
1:45draw the Short Straw you know I might
1:47have drawn the Short Straw what happened
1:49was my my predecessor George Valiant
1:52asked a couple of other people and they
1:55said no they said this is a great big
1:58messy albatross data that goes back to
2:011938 so he got turned down so he proudly
2:05got his third choice I think I was at
2:08least his third
2:10choice so so what made you say yes let's
2:13go there then oh well so the research
2:17project that I begged them to fund the
2:21federal government said nah we're not so
2:23interested so I was in that place and my
2:27predecessor said come over to my office
2:29and just read through one person's file
2:34and so I said okay the file was probably
2:36a th thousand pieces of paper and I
2:39started reading through and I read about
2:42this 19-year-old guy and what he hoped
2:45for for his life and what was most
2:47important to him and what it was like to
2:50be dating and then I read about his
2:5340-year-old aspirations and then I
2:56flipped to his 60-year-old discussion of
2:59his marriage and how disappointing it
3:01was you read his whole life I read his
3:03life I sat there and read his life and
3:06it was like this is like the coolest
3:08thing I could do based on the the actual
3:10people you
3:11studied tell me something they get right
3:15as they are young kids in their teens
3:18and they or even in their early 20s and
3:20they start to think about what will make
3:22them happy and they get it
3:26right A lot of them care about making a
3:30difference in the world and they care
3:33about the world and the people I think
3:35who who stay with that who they may not
3:38be the same purpose all the way through
3:40their lives but the people who stay with
3:43that aspiration I think stay engaged in
3:46life and I think that's what they get
3:48right that's really significant right
3:51because if we look at how we're teaching
3:53our children universities advertise as a
3:56reason to choose them over another the
3:59starting of their graduates yeah and our
4:03guidance counselors they don't ask us
4:06the right questions about how we want to
4:09contribute to the world they ask us what
4:10we can do and where we think we can get
4:12employment and so what I find very
4:13significant about what you're saying is
4:15what if our guidance counselors what if
4:17our Deans what if our parents start
4:20instilling at us at a very young age the
4:22importance of simply wanting to be a
4:24part of something bigger than ourselves
4:26forget about actually achieving it
4:27simply wanting it yeah right that that
4:30as you said the data shows that people
4:32who at a young age want to contribute to
4:34something bigger themselves they will
4:36somehow pursue that ideal for the rest
4:39of their lives which keeps them at above
4:41average happy
4:44rates yes and I think what happens is
4:47that many people have posited a kind of
4:50psychological maturity that involves
4:53wanting to be part of something bigger
4:54than the S Eric Ericson I don't know if
4:57you've heard of his stuff but he was
5:00Viking yeah yeah yeah no no he was a a a
5:05psychoanalyst from Vienna in the 30s and
5:0840s who came to Boston who taught for a
5:11while at Harvard and he started talking
5:15about the stages of adult development
5:17nobody had talked about adult
5:19development everybody was interested in
5:20kids because they so obviously developed
5:23right but he said you know adults go
5:25through these stages and one of his
5:27stages he called generative ity versus
5:32stagnation and the generativity was
5:35wanting to be part of something bigger
5:37than yourself realizing oh I want to
5:40help raise kids or I want to Mentor
5:42people or I want to do something that's
5:44yeah not just me and he said that the
5:48people who do that become the people who
5:51are going to look back on their lives
5:53with less regret with more of a sense
5:57that the my life was good enough
6:00I think we're living in a time where
6:02though we intellectually know that
6:04because it's the subject of so many
6:05social media posts I think we're living
6:07in a time where people don't feel
6:08connected to something bigger than
6:09themselves in general you know we don't
6:11work for companies for 30 or 40 years
6:13anymore Church attendance is down right
6:17even the great power competitions of US
6:19versus the Soviet Union that we were
6:21proud to be a part of this side versus
6:22that side like even even at a global
6:24politics level like those things have
6:25gone away and I think you see it on the
6:28left and the right ially people latching
6:30onto
6:32absolutely that gives them that sense of
6:34belonging but it doesn't last those
6:36attachments don't last but you can see
6:38them just grasping for it yeah yeah in a
6:41way that maybe I'm idealizing but I
6:43don't have memory of people doing in the
6:46past the sort of the the the intense
6:49latching onto whether it's a far left or
6:51a far right point of view about how the
6:54world should work and they latch onto it
6:57as if it's their life's purpose but it
6:59isn't right it lasts for a period of
7:02time and then onto the next or it
7:05dissipates right or an identity as a
7:08certain kind of influencer or an
7:11identity as a certain as a person living
7:13a certain style of life materially I
7:16mean there are all all these various
7:18identities that people are struggling
7:20for I think you're right Robert putam is
7:23a political scientist he wrote a book
7:25called bowling alone yeah and yeah right
7:28so you know about so he he tracked he
7:31tracked how we've stopped belonging
7:34right we've stopped all the things you
7:36just said and we've been stopped joining
7:38clubs and volunteering and having people
7:40over to our houses and what he's found
7:44is that it's gotten worse since the
7:47digital Revolution the digital
7:49revolution has accelerated the trends
7:51that were already there and so the path
7:55of least resistance now is social
7:57isolation greater and greater isolation
8:00and and we're all kind of desperate for
8:02what to do about it and how to feel like
8:04we belong I wonder if we need a new word
8:08and I'll tell you what I mean because
8:10the technology has
8:12co-opted words right so a desktop used
8:15to be a horizontal surface yeah yeah and
8:17now a desktop is a vertical surface yeah
8:20and a folder was something you used to
8:21put away in alphabetical order and now a
8:23folder is something you click on
8:24absolutely it's taken words and things
8:28to make to make the transition to living
8:30in a digital world I know why they do it
8:33it's because it's easier but the word
8:35Community used to mean like showing up
8:38and wearing a fez you
8:40know there were secret handshakes and
8:42there was a time to meet up and there
8:44was free food and Community meant a
8:47thing and now that word has been
8:48co-opted to like being on an email
8:51list exactly now what you and I are
8:54talking about we're attempting to offer
8:56an archaic definition of what community
8:58is and I wonder if instead of trying to
9:01fight it we just need a new
9:03word and then people will want the
9:06that's the new word because Community
9:08already belongs
9:11online but I worry that the word we're
9:14substituting is something like tribe and
9:18tribe has all those connotations of who
9:20we exclude yeah who we make other you
9:24know all that stuff yeah um and and I
9:27think I think we're all stuck in this
9:29place where we don't know how to belong
9:32without making other people enemies yeah
9:36I want to scratch this just a little bit
9:38more because when I articulated the
9:40concept of why the reason I called it
9:42the why was a SE was a semantic problem
9:44that I faced right which is I got tired
9:48of debating with people what comes first
9:51Vision or
9:53Mission and the debate would go on
9:55forever yeah and so I finally realized
9:57we were having a semantic debate yeah
10:00yeah and so I asked the people who
10:01believed Vision was preeminent what is
10:03the definition of vision to you and they
10:05said it's why I get out of bed in the
10:06morning and I went to people who
10:08believed mission was preeminent and I
10:09said what's mission to you and they said
10:11well it's why I do what I do yeah so
10:13everybody whether it was purpose or
10:14brand or whatever whatever word they
10:16thought was the thing they all gave me
10:18the same definition and so I said okay
10:21so let's call it the why and now we can
10:23all agree what it is and now we can
10:25actually figure out how to do it rather
10:26than debate what comes first right
10:29right exactly and and so I I wonder how
10:32people are defining community and maybe
10:35you have some data that explains that
10:38like it's one thing to say I want my
10:39life to be a part of something bigger
10:40than itself I want to feel a sense of
10:42purpose but what actually based on this
10:45longitudinal study what actually do
10:47people mean when they say these
10:51words the people who talked about it the
10:54most meant something quite fluid and
10:58quite individual je
11:01so the people who are the best at this
11:03would have like work mates over for
11:05barbecues but they'd mix in their family
11:08they'd mix in cousins and they'd mix in
11:11people from their church and they'd
11:13introduce each other and so you have
11:15these people who become like the nodes
11:18of a group of people that get connected
11:20they become if you will connectors but
11:23that means that each person might be the
11:26node of a unique collection of people
11:30right as opposed to one thing going to a
11:34church going to a synagogue yeah you can
11:37do that and that is a defined Community
11:39but most of us have these things that
11:42are more fluid and individual yeah one
11:44of the one of my friends who's the best
11:46at this keeps connecting his friends
11:48from random parts of his life and it's
11:52really fun to get to be part of that
11:55group of people because it's so diverse
11:57I think you're touching on something
11:58that I think is really magical if we're
12:00saying it's important for us to build
12:01community and I've done this I've gone
12:03to dinner parties and it's the same 10
12:05people at somebody at a just a different
12:07house yeah you know and they say we care
12:11about Community but as you're defining
12:13it it's not really Community it's just
12:15the same 10 people at different houses
12:18and I think what you're talking about is
12:19the importance of the salon the old the
12:22old school Salon which is instead of
12:24hosting a dinner party we should take it
12:25upon ourselves to build salons which is
12:28I'm going to invite some tried andrue
12:30friends I'm going to invite some people
12:32who I just met recently I'm going to
12:34invite somebody who I met at a different
12:35dinner party and and I may or may not
12:37give a subject to discuss at the table
12:39but this is what's going to happen
12:41because then I'll go to somebody else's
12:42dinner party who was at mine and it's a
12:44lot of new people for me too yeah and I
12:47love this idea of us not just hosting
12:50dinner party for the people we know but
12:52for hosting specifically hosting dinner
12:55parties for people we know that our
12:57friends don't know EX exactly because
13:00the same 10 people is in a silo right
13:04like it's it's almost it could be
13:06hermetically sealed and so you know what
13:08each other thinks you know each other
13:10but the most exciting conversations
13:13happen for me when people come who do
13:16completely different things who come
13:18from different backgrounds I mean today
13:21I was on a call with a researcher who
13:24was growing nerve cells from
13:27schizophrenics and he he's trying to see
13:30is a nerve cell different in how it
13:33makes connections if it's got the genes
13:35of a someone with schizophrenia and
13:38therefore someone who has
13:40delusions are do the connections that a
13:43nerve cell make are they different for
13:45people with delusions and I'm like I'm
13:48like buzzing with all these ideas and
13:51it's because a student of mine is also a
13:54student of his and brought us together
13:57and our heads started to explode with
13:59excited possibilities and I think what
14:02you're talking about is we connect not
14:03on the interest that stuff is
14:05superficial and that stuff is good at
14:07you know sort of getting people in the
14:08room yeah and but we're talking about
14:11deep deep values that are deeper than
14:13our political points of view because I
14:14can have the same values of somebody
14:15with a different political point of view
14:16than me and I think people confuse those
14:19things sometimes I love this how long
14:22have you have you led the the how long
14:23have you been the boss of the study uh
14:2622 years 22 years and what did did you
14:29learn from the data that you've been
14:31able to apply to your life that has made
14:33you
14:36happier I now like like you read you
14:38were reading some data and you're like
14:40huh I'm gonna start doing that and you
14:42did I now call up my guy friends and I
14:47say let's go for a walk let's go out to
14:49dinner um we're not just going to wait
14:52for our wives to do this thing to
14:55organize our social lives we're going to
14:57do this and and it first it's really
14:59awkward like we don't do this we're guys
15:03and then it's been a wonderful thing in
15:05terms of really getting to know
15:08individually people who were otherwise
15:11part of a social group part of the same
15:1310 people if you will yeah yeah but we
15:15never Dug Dug more deeply into knowing
15:18each other and so it made me do that
15:21because I thought otherwise I'm just
15:23going to sit here on my computer all day
15:25long doing my research stuff doing my
15:28academic
15:29and pick my head up and have no friends
15:31that's a really good one
15:33yep somebody
15:36said take care of your body like you're
15:39going to need it for a hundred
15:42years and I realized that boy this
15:45really really matters that in our data
15:48the people who took care of themselves
15:49so we're talking regular exercise not
15:52abusing drugs and alcohol not becoming
15:54obese all that stuff they lived on
15:57average 10 years longer and stayed
15:59healthier so even though it's not rocket
16:02science and it's not
16:04news I could see in my own data how much
16:08it really matters people I assume are
16:10starting to die now in the studies most
16:12of the original folks have died 724
16:15original people right fewer than 10 are
16:17still alive and they're all overage 100
16:20okay so of the ones of those 724 the
16:23ones who lived the longest you know
16:25because biohacking is a thing now and
16:27like the obsession there's an obsession
16:29with longevity and so the people who
16:32lived the longest was there a pattern
16:35that you were able to discern and the
16:37people who lived the shortest was there
16:39a pattern that you were able to discern
16:41yeah yeah yeah yeah the longest was
16:44literally taking care of your physical
16:46health and being really socially engaged
16:50in the world okay those were the two
16:52things and the people who lived the
16:54shortest it was the opposite people the
16:56opposite who you know who became out
16:58alcoholics who became obese who didn't
17:01take care of themselves and who were
17:03isolated this is why I think your work
17:05is very very important is because I
17:07think a lot of the longevity people and
17:08biohackers and all of that they're all
17:10talking about vitamins and exercise and
17:12sure sure sure that stuff's great and
17:13they pay lip service to community
17:16whereas they're giving exact
17:18dosages of vitamin D that I should be
17:21taking on a daily basis but nobody's
17:23giving me a prescription to how to hang
17:25out with my friends because Community
17:27doesn't make money you can sell vitamin
17:29D you can sell supplements you can
17:32package them in fancy ways you can sell
17:35them on a podcast right I appreciate the
17:37cynicism so much you have no idea I'm so
17:40sorry that's no I think you're 100%
17:43right I think you're 100% right there is
17:44a financial incentive to sell half a
17:48solution exactly you know and what I
17:50struggle with so as you know I'm a
17:52physician I'm a psychiatrist and one of
17:54the difficulties with medicine is that
17:59the vast amount of disease is
18:01preventable but you don't make money in
18:03medicine preventing disease you make
18:06money curing disease or trying to
18:08ameliorate disease with medications with
18:11procedures you don't make money
18:13preventing Disease by encouraging people
18:16to socialize by encouraging people to
18:18exercise you've been doing this for 22
18:21years you get tired talking about it
18:24yeah actually no I mean okay I do I
18:28don't get you're getting the same qu
18:30like you could do a bunch of pod you're
18:31GNA have to answer the same questions
18:33five times in a row yeah but how they
18:36get asked is so different I mean talking
18:38with you right now is really fun right
18:41because of the way we're talking no but
18:44really because there's this kind of
18:46there's a real back and forth right it's
18:48we're having a conversation there are
18:50other times when it's like just shoot me
18:54if someone says I'm you know I'm really
18:58looking for forward to reading your book
19:00can you explain to our listeners what
19:02you do that's that's like fingernails on
19:07black the interviews that I that I hate
19:10doing is where the people are so
19:12overprepared to talk to me that they ask
19:15me questions about my book like Simon
19:16what are the five elements of the
19:19infinite game and I was like well you
19:21you know the answer you you say it like
19:23why you ask me questions you know the
19:24answers to ask me questions you don't
19:26know the answers to that's more fun
19:28absolutely absolutely absolutely and so
19:31so when something spontaneous happens
19:33like is happening now with you I could
19:36do this forever uh but but when the
19:39other happens I just I just want to be
19:41done in so I have to I mean you might
19:42know this because you are psychiatrist
19:45how many psychiatrist does it take to
19:47change a light
19:49bulb one exactly one but the light bulb
19:52has to really want to change I love that
19:54joke I love that joke what was your
19:57journey how did you get into Psych
19:59like why when you decided you want to go
20:00to med school why the Mind well when I
20:04decided to go to med school it wasn't
20:06going to be the mind I'm a Jewish kid
20:08from De Moine Iowa I did not know the
20:10Jewish kid from De Mo Iowa well close no
20:13no we had about a thousand Jewish
20:15families in De Mo we had three and a
20:18half synagogues wow but yeah but so most
20:22of the psychiatrists I knew worked with
20:25seriously mentally ill people in Asylum
20:28and Psychotherapy was not a thing you
20:30did in De Moine unless you were really
20:33ill and needed to be in a hospital so I
20:35didn't know anybody but I knew I really
20:37liked working with people and so when I
20:40got to med school I realized that
20:43Psychiatry was like by far the thing
20:45that excited me the most but Psychiatry
20:48is the stepchild of medicine so a lot of
20:51my professors said you know either
20:53you're at the bottom of the class or you
20:55yourself are crazy because there'd be no
20:57other reason for you to go into
20:59Psychiatry so it took me a long time
21:02before I finally admitted like who am I
21:05kidding this is really the most
21:07interesting thing because otherwise it
21:08was memorizing the 12 types of thyroid
21:11tumors and I didn't care about thyroid
21:13tumors unless somebody I knew had one
21:16but I I cared deeply about the mind and
21:19especially how my own worked so I had to
21:22come around to it uh despite the stigma
21:25of being a psychiatrist how did you get
21:27over the stigma because there's a lot of
21:29pressure to become an accountant or
21:31choose the the line of medicine that's
21:33most in demand right now because it's a
21:35better business option you followed
21:37passion I did I did well partly I
21:40followed passion because what I I'm I'm
21:44not good at doing things I'm not
21:46passionate about actually all my energy
21:49drains and I start to shut down and I
21:51start to feel terrible and I started to
21:54do that I realized I don't care about
21:56most of medicine so yes I could become a
21:59cardiologist like many of my aunts and
22:01uncles wanted me to do because
22:03Cardiology is a nice field right but I
22:06realized I would just die I would just
22:08Wither on the vine and what I've finally
22:11learned to do over time is to listen to
22:14that gut that says I'm drawn to this and
22:18I'm not drawn to that that's probably
22:20the hardest lesson I've had to keep
22:22learning throughout my life so good
22:26segue if we look at the the world as it
22:29is now it
22:31seems
22:33that younger people who are trying to
22:35figure out what to do with their lives
22:37their quote unquote passion for
22:38something seems to be I don't know if
22:41it's driven by external reward structure
22:43you know the number of young people who
22:44say I want to be an influencer it's like
22:46people who come up to me and say Simon
22:47can I get your advice I'd love to be a
22:49speaker I'm like oh amazing or I want to
22:50be an author I'm like great what do you
22:52want to speak about they're like I don't
22:53know yet I'm like well then no no you
22:55got it in the wrong order like I want to
22:56be an influencer influencer is a
22:58mechanism to spread something but what
23:00is the thing you're passionate about to
23:01spread exactly that the thing that they
23:04think they're passionate for is
23:05something that looks cool sounds cool
23:08gets a lot of adoration gets a lot of
23:09money gets a lot of Fame and it it's an
23:12age-old question how do I know what I'm
23:13passionate
23:15for for me it literally has been
23:18learning to tap into my energy is my
23:22energy higher or lower In This Moment
23:26than it was a few minutes ago literally
23:29and I had to learn that for example I'm
23:31really enjoying this conversation my
23:33energy is higher and if I'm in a
23:36conversation where it where it starts to
23:38lower I get it right away and one of the
23:41things I've come to understand is that
23:43we get trained to ignore those signals I
23:45was at least think about all the times
23:47you had to sit in a classroom in school
23:50and you'd have these urges to do
23:52something or explore something but of
23:54course you had to sit still and watch
23:56the clock until the class was over over
23:59we've been taught to suppress these
24:02inner voices I think since we were in
24:05preschool I think you're right but
24:07there's a Nuance here that's very
24:08important and I need you to unwrap it
24:10for me which is we evaluate friends like
24:13are our friends generative you know you
24:15know unbalanced not every time because
24:17sometimes we're tired sometimes they're
24:18tired but in general when I hang out
24:21with x-friend versus yri is that friend
24:25generative in How I Feel do I leave my
24:27time with them happier elated as you
24:29said like up right yeah and am I paying
24:32attention to that that I want to spend
24:33more time with them versus H well we've
24:35been friend for 15 years so I guess I'll
24:37go out with them you know exactly um and
24:40I think that's true with our work as
24:42well and it obviously it conflicts with
24:44things like responsibility because
24:46sometimes you have to suppress that
24:47feeling because I have to be responsible
24:50it's an imperfect standard right uh I
24:54don't always feel like changing that
24:55diaper right exactly I think you're
24:58touching upon it which is folks like us
25:00are giving advice like trust your gut
25:02follow that Elation but the problem is
25:04is that I don't know if people are
25:06running towards it or when they don't
25:09feel it they rebel against it so for in
25:11a work environment right we see this a
25:13lot where it's particularly young people
25:15but not exclusively they just have more
25:17courage I think which is if they're in a
25:20job that doesn't do that they're very
25:22vocal and sometimes rejecting of the the
25:25culture the leader the boss the job
25:27itself and I think there's more about
25:30speaking out against the fact that I'm
25:32not elated thinking that by speaking out
25:36against that I will find the Elation
25:39rather than doing more of the thing that
25:41elates me like going to work and saying
25:43hey my boss this elates me in general
25:47this elates me less in general can I do
25:50more of that please rather than
25:51rejecting throwing the whole the baby
25:53out with the bath water absolutely it's
25:55there's more of a need to take
25:58responsibility for that right to have a
26:00sense of agency okay if I if if this job
26:04is draining as it is what can I do right
26:08what can I do and some of that as you
26:10know has to do with connecting with
26:12people on the job like one of the things
26:14we know is that if people have have
26:16friends on the job if they have people
26:18they want to show up for that in and of
26:20itself is energizing even if you're
26:24making widgets in a way that's boring to
26:26you yeah creating a problem here do you
26:29realize that which is because we're
26:31saying don't run away from run towards
26:34run towards a feeling run towards the
26:36contribution to something bigger and yet
26:39I think people if they're listening will
26:40say ah I think I'm running away more
26:43often than I'm running towards I'm
26:44running away from relationships rather
26:46than towards new ones I'm running away
26:47from a job I hate rather than one toward
26:50the one that I think I'm going to love
26:52so now it begs the question how do I
26:54know what to run towards
27:00okay I have an example coming to mind I
27:02loved doing theater as a high school kid
27:06as a college kid and if I just ran
27:09toward what I loved I would be a failed
27:12actor today so what I had to do was
27:17really take in the whole picture to
27:18realize okay I do I love theater I still
27:21love theater but the whole picture was I
27:23came to understand that a doing theater
27:27involv d a lot of Rejection it involved
27:31getting bad reviews of plays sometimes
27:34in college it involved getting turned
27:36down for parts it involved feeling like
27:39I was acting with people who I didn't
27:42think were any fun to be with all that
27:44right and what I had to do was take in
27:48the the larger picture not just the
27:50isolated passion that I was looking at
27:53right and so some of this is a kind of
27:56discernment where you say okay the what
27:58goes with the whole package we go back
28:01to Psychiatry what I found was that
28:04Psychiatry has a whole package it's one
28:06of the lowest paid Specialties in
28:09medicine but it's got one of the best
28:12lifestyles on the other hand Cardiology
28:15is way better paid but I don't like
28:18doing it so there's a kind of
28:20discernment that's required for what do
28:23I run toward what do I hang back from or
28:26walk away from
28:28but the challenge is to take it all in
28:31not just to say okay I'm going to focus
28:33on this one one tiny part of it so
28:37you're asking people to do a cost
28:38analysis yeah I guess I am and I think
28:42that's right I love photography and I'm
28:44an active photographer and I actively
28:47did not choose a career in photography
28:50because I interned at a couple photo
28:51studios when I was younger and I kept
28:54meeting people who were artists they
28:55defined themselves as artists
28:57photographers and here they were
28:58shooting bottles of ketchup for an ad
29:01campaign absolutely and they their love
29:03and I asked them do you ever shoot for
29:04art anymore they said I either don't
29:06have the time or I don't have the energy
29:08and so their passion became a job I mean
29:12that pejoratively yeah yeah it became
29:15work yeah and and I think that's where
29:18when people say I want to be in theater
29:19I want to be in fashion I want and I
29:21think they forget that they're just
29:24businesses right they're just businesses
29:26and I can tell you somebody who was
29:27passionate for fashion who's a job and
29:29fashion living their childhood dream and
29:30they hate their life and I can show you
29:32somebody who stumbled and bumbled and
29:33found themselves in manufacturing making
29:35a widget like they're making a screw
29:37that fits in the back of a thing that
29:38nobody ever sees and that they're the
29:40happiest people alive yeah in fact I was
29:42talking to a a contractor and I asked
29:45him just out of the blue I sort of
29:46making small talk I'm like just out of
29:48curiosity do you like your job yeah and
29:51he says I love my job he says I love it
29:54and I he he he said it with such passion
29:57no other word for it and I was like what
29:59do you love about it he goes I get to
30:01build things with my own hands and I get
30:03to see them built yeah I get to see what
30:06I built I start with nothing I start
30:08with a pile of wood and some nails and
30:11some Sheetrock and then when I'm done
30:13you get that right and then I go do it
30:16again and again and again and again
30:19whether it's a kitchen remodeling or
30:20whatever it is and he had such Elation
30:23to see the fruits of his actual
30:25labor right what you're saying reminds
30:28me of something I've come to understand
30:30which is there's there's grunt work in
30:32anything there's boring work in anything
30:36and
30:37so really what we have to figure out is
30:40what is the thing we are aiming toward
30:42that has enough in it that we love that
30:44it's worth doing all the boring parts
30:47right yeah and so I'm sure not every bit
30:51of his Contracting work his construction
30:54work his enlivening but boy seeing he's
30:58built lights him up right and he can he
31:01can hold on to that Vision while he's
31:03pounding that um teenth nail I'm having
31:05an Insight
31:07here here's where we make a
31:10mistake we're looking for the work to be
31:12the thing that is that is
31:14passionate and it's not the work that is
31:16the thing that is passionate it is what
31:18that work produces right because raising
31:21kids it is awful in the early part you
31:25don't sleep you got as you said changing
31:28diapers in the middle of the night you
31:29get peed on and thrown up on and then
31:32they get a little older and they become
31:34teenagers and they're pain in the ass to
31:35be around and then one of them gets bad
31:38grades and you got to deal with that and
31:40another one gets a fight in school and
31:42punches a kid and then you got to deal
31:43with that and like where's the joy that
31:46I thought that having kids are supposed
31:47to be joyful right but but then you have
31:51these unpredictable glimmers yeah of
31:54your kids helping each other or another
31:57parent saying your kid's great or the
31:59teacher saying your kid helps all the
32:01other kids you you get these unexpected
32:04glimmers that make all of that worth it
32:07in an instant yes yes and and I know
32:11that from my work like writing books is
32:13the it's the worst thing in the world
32:15yeah I don't know why anybody I don't
32:16people like I want to be an author I'm
32:17like don't it's the worst yeah but when
32:20you put something out in the world that
32:23that that resonates with people it's
32:26instantly worth all of it and I do it
32:27again
32:28yeah even though every time I've written
32:30a book I've said this is the last one
32:32yeah and I think people are looking for
32:34the passion in the wrong place they're
32:36looking for the passion in the
32:38labor but they're not looking for what
32:41the labor produces and maybe this is one
32:42of the problems with knowledge
32:44work which is knowledge work is kind of
32:47sitting at a desk I don't even know how
32:49you define what quote unquote labor is
32:51in the lot of knowledge
32:52work and and then what's the result of
32:55that labor and do we appreciate the the
32:57results like we don't think about what
32:59the things we make we don't think about
33:01the impact they have in the world I'll
33:03give you an awful example I I met
33:06somebody recently who has a very Niche
33:10specialty she helps project
33:13manage the building of super Yachts for
33:16the Mega
33:17wealthy there you go of course my first
33:20question was how the hell did you get
33:21into that you know really and I asked
33:24her this is do your clients ever say
33:27thank thank you so much why don't you
33:29take the yacht with your family for a
33:31week and she said it's never happened
33:35never right so I said to her so what
33:36you're telling me is these
33:37multi-billionaires who build these
33:39Yachts for many hundreds of millions of
33:42dollars that they use for two weeks a
33:44year and they sail around the world just
33:47in case the family might want to use it
33:49at no point on this empty yacht has
33:52anybody ever said to you thanks for all
33:53your hard work why don't you borrow the
33:55yacht and she said it's never happened
33:59and I said well how does that make you
34:01feel she go it also occurs to me that
34:03what the hell good am I doing in the
34:05world and so tremendous amount of Labor
34:08I'm sure incredibly well compensated but
34:11there's no glimmer there's no there's no
34:15what an amazing opportunity that I have
34:16to give to my family the opportunity to
34:18go on a mega yacht that none of us could
34:20afford that none of us will ever have
34:22the opportunity I'm going to take my
34:23friends that I grew up with who have
34:25middle-income jobs and I'm going to show
34:26them something and give them an
34:28experience and that makes all of this
34:30worth it because I get to give that
34:32to people that I love and she never gets
34:34that
34:34glimmer is she happy in her job no yeah
34:39yeah no no it pays well yeah yeah yeah
34:44but don't don't you think it has to be a
34:45combination of getting there and the
34:48outcome because like when you talked
34:50about kids and you listed you named I've
34:53been through every horrible scenario and
34:55many more in raising my children but
34:58there's also stuff along the way that is
35:02hilarious and wonderful and wacky right
35:06there's like stuff punctuating all the
35:09crap that is
35:11absolutely wonderfully wild and and and
35:15like getting to relive your own
35:16childhood is part of it for me I got to
35:18go to all these kids movies that I would
35:20never go to I got to be on roller
35:22coasters I couldn't do the work that I
35:25do if it was only the outcome because
35:27the outcomes are so far into the future
35:30like writing a book right as one of my
35:31friends said who's in publishing he said
35:34only write a book if it's going to move
35:36along your own thinking in some ways and
35:39it's true like I and I bet for you too
35:43that it wasn't just that you were
35:45regurgitating stuff that was tried I was
35:48I was learning along the way yeah I had
35:50insights along the way that as I'm
35:52writing I feel electric because a new
35:54idea is pouring out of me in that moment
35:57yeah and that that I bet that was part
35:59of what kept you going not just the
36:01outcome of having it to put into the
36:02world you know what we're defining here
36:04you know what we're defining we're
36:05defining a purpose-driven life yeah
36:07because if you think what purpose is
36:08purpose is idealism and idealism by its
36:11very definition is
36:12unrealizable right all men have created
36:14equal never going to happen never ever
36:16ever not in a million years right
36:19however it's the striving towards that
36:22and to your point it's the the mile
36:25markers I don't know how to define them
36:26but like for example
36:29uh women's suffrage civil rights
36:31abolition of slavery it's like ah ooo
36:34look we got we're getting closer guys
36:36we're getting closer let's keep going
36:38right right to your point I think if it
36:40was just awful work the whole time
36:42waiting for the final outcome then we
36:44should then you should we should
36:45absolutely quit and I think you're right
36:47I think th it goes back to those
36:49glimmers which is the the little
36:50glimmers that say you know what this is
36:53worth it I'm going to keep I'm going to
36:54keep on this I'm going to keep doing
36:55this kid rearing thing and not put them
36:57up adoption because you know that was a
36:59fun family dinner last night yeah
37:01exactly exactly exactly I so I think so
37:05I think if we're talking about
37:06purpose-driven life if we go right back
37:08to the beginning of this conversation
37:10there's the and then this comes directly
37:12from your data which is what I love
37:13which is from a very young age we
37:15instill in people we instill in our in
37:17our youngest Generations it is good to
37:20be an idealist it is good to strive to
37:23contribute to something bigger than
37:24yourself you won't know how to get there
37:27you'll change your mind a hundred times
37:29but you have to keep your head above the
37:31looking Beyond the Horizon and so long
37:34as you feel like you're getting closer
37:35to the Horizon even if it's a windy
37:37difficult road so long as you have
37:38elements that say no no no I think
37:40you're on a good path here you will have
37:42a happy
37:43life and as long as there's something
37:46nourishing along the way there's got to
37:49be something along the way to keep me
37:52going does money play any role in
37:54people's happiness according to your
37:56study it does
37:58but that what we find is that you need
38:00to get your basic needs met in order to
38:02be happy and that every dollar you make
38:05toward getting your basic needs met like
38:07you know food and shelter and educating
38:09your kids like every dollar you make
38:11makes you happier we know that but that
38:14then you buy that hundred million do
38:17yacht it doesn't really make you happier
38:20yeah um on average like you know if you
38:23if you took all the hundred million do
38:25yacht owners they there would they
38:27wouldn't be happier on average than the
38:29people who basically had enough who only
38:33have a $50 million yacht yeah yeah yeah
38:36exactly but you but you know comparison
38:38is relative right because billionaires
38:40aren't comparing themselves to us
38:42billionaires are comparing themselves to
38:44each other absolutely and so this is the
38:47part of the problem right it's a
38:48relative scale yes because sometimes
38:51these billionaires are in great pain
38:53because they have a couple fewer billion
38:56than somebody else I mean it's it's hard
38:58to imagine and yet I know it in my own
39:00life like I I can compare myself on the
39:03most trivial things to other people and
39:05then I try to pull back from that and
39:07notice what I'm
39:09doing unrelated I'm just going to say it
39:11because it's fun do you want to you you
39:14want to understand the difference
39:15between a million and a billion tell you
39:17when people talk about Millionaires and
39:18billionaires yeah so an easy way to
39:21understand the difference a million
39:23seconds is 11 and a half days a billion
39:28seconds is 31 a half years wow whoa whoa
39:35yeah okay and that's the difference
39:38between being a millionaire milona a
39:41billionaire billionaire it's not even
39:43close yeah but you know the most
39:47valuable thing we have is time so it's I
39:50like your analogy that you were talking
39:52about seconds but those seconds are are
39:55far more precious ultimately
39:58than those dollars and money is a is a
40:00redeemable commodity we spend it we lose
40:03it we can make more but spending time or
40:07energy these are non-redeemable
40:08Commodities and everyone gets the same
40:11amount from day
40:14one day get but we don't know how much
40:18we get right that's the thing oh oh in
40:20terms of lifespan yeah that's even
40:23that's even more interesting yeah so you
40:25but you're right we all have 24 hours we
40:27have 24 hours in a day but we don't know
40:28how many 24hour days we get
40:31exactly and so when we give that
40:33precious commodity to another human
40:36being when we when somebody's struggling
40:38at work and we sit down with them and we
40:41we give them some tough love when your
40:44kid is struggling at school and the
40:46teacher spends an hour after school when
40:49our friend is moving and we go to their
40:51house and we pack boxes yeah these these
40:56the expense of time
40:58as a gift I mean it as a gift yeah not
41:01not in terms of are you being because I
41:03I'm totally anti that you have to use
41:05all that time to be productive as well
41:07because I think sometimes zoning out and
41:09watching TV is the best use of that time
41:11so I'm not I'm not making the analogy
41:13that you have to make use of all your
41:15time I'm talking very specifically about
41:17the value of time as a gift to another
41:19human being yes is more valuable than
41:22any gift on the planet I have a quote
41:25here from one of my zen teachers his
41:28name is John tarant and he said
41:32attention is the most basic form of
41:37love and if you think about it our
41:40undivided attention it's the most
41:42valuable thing we've got to
41:45give oh the only thing we have these
41:49days is divided attention
41:52yeah and we can't even watch
41:56TV without also checking social media
42:00and sending a text absolutely I mean
42:02they research shows we typically have
42:04two or three screens open at
42:08once so the only thing we have these
42:10days is divided attention and yet the
42:12best way to express love to someone is
42:15undivided attention
42:18yeah you're blowing my mind a little bit
42:21I want to ask you two final questions
42:23okay I'm having such a good time by the
42:26way this is
42:27ask another 100 then okay how happy do
42:30money and fame actually make people huh
42:34they don't they don't make people not
42:36happy either well actually Fame May
42:39because Fame can can make people intrude
42:41on your life and stuff so Fame actually
42:43might make you less happy money doesn't
42:46make you happier or not happier once you
42:48get above a certain level you don't get
42:50much of a bump you get some bump but not
42:53that much Fame uh Fame is really a
42:57double-edged sword and you might be able
42:59to say something about that because
43:00you've received a lot of public
43:02attention and I'm sure it's not all
43:03wonderful I think of it is cost yeah
43:06right so my goal is to spread a message
43:10and to make a leave this world in better
43:13shape than I found it and contribute to
43:15the lives of my friends and the people I
43:17don't know as well and part of the cost
43:20of that is some loss of privacy and and
43:23it's worth it because the the benefit so
43:26outweighs that very small
43:28cost oh can I tell you when my TED Talk
43:31went viral so I'm I'm very seriously
43:34involved in Zen and someone said you
43:37should put up a website and I had no web
43:40Presence at all yeah and I said no I
43:43wasn't going to do that that that was
43:44all ego that was all going over to the
43:46dark side and my zen teachers said you
43:49have the ability to convey ideas to
43:53people that will matter to them don't do
43:56that
43:57and so they pushed me toward what you're
43:59describing which is they said don't stay
44:01in the shadows if you can be of use yeah
44:04that is my experience that the in the
44:06early days when I my work started to
44:07gain traction I was militant about
44:11keeping my face and name off everything
44:13like I wanted to put my name on the book
44:15in like Mouse type because the idea
44:17never would put my picture on the cover
44:18of a book I still won't because I'm not
44:21the thing and I refused to have my
44:23picture on my website for years and I
44:25wouldn't let my name be the UR L because
44:27it's not about me and then at some point
44:29I made the realization that I and you're
44:33this as well which is you you actually
44:35live two versions of yourself you are
44:37you obviously but you are also the
44:40representation of your message
44:42absolutely absolutely and how dare I
44:45selfishly deny the representation of my
44:48message because people don't follow
44:50ideas they follow people because ideas
44:52are abstract and people are real so we
44:54create representations of a set of value
44:56so Martin Luther King is a
44:58representation of a set of values and we
44:59follow Martin Luther King but not really
45:00we really follow the ideals that he
45:02stood for because I stand for those
45:03ideals too they're my ideals as much as
45:05they are his for example and in that
45:08sense you're a placeholder if you will
45:10for a whole set of values and
45:12aspirations right and that's a function
45:15that's important to serve here's another
45:18question for you what's the best thing
45:19we can do right now for our happiness
45:22two things be engage with people and
45:26engage in things you care about ideally
45:29engage in things you care about with
45:30people you care about That's The Sweet
45:32Spot Bob what a joy yeah this was fun
45:36this what an absolute Joy I leave elated
45:39and
45:40buzzing me too actually this was a
45:43pleasure an unexpected pleasure thank
45:45you so so much I truly appreciate it all
45:47right take
45:49care if you enjoyed this podcast and
45:51would like to hear more please subscribe
45:54wherever you like to listen to podcasts
45:56and if you'd like even more optimism
45:58check out my website simon.com for
46:01classes videos and more until then take
46:05care of yourself take care of each other

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