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The Science of Making & Breaking Habits: How to Change Your Life in 1 Month — Transcript

by Mel Robbins · 19,091 words · 2,808 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00Procrastinating is choosing to delay a
0:02better future. It's choosing to ignore
0:05the results that you could be having,
0:06the potential that you could be
0:08fulfilling. Fix the inputs and the
0:10outputs will fix themselves. Fix the
0:11daily habits and you'll be led to a
0:13different destination. Time is precious.
0:16>> Today you and I are getting to learn
0:18from the incredible James Clear. He's
0:20widely regarded as one of the top
0:22experts in the world on habit formation
0:25and behavior change whose book on habits
0:28has sold 25
0:31million copies. I'm talking about none
0:34other than Atomic [music] Habits.
0:36>> I feel like if I sit there and I
0:37ruminate about something, it just gets
0:39worse. It gets bigger in my head. But if
0:41I take one small action on it, if I just
0:43get started on it, now I'm influencing
0:45the outcome. You know, now I'm shaping
0:47what's going to happen. Action relieves
0:49anxiety.
0:49>> [music]
0:49>> You said at the very beginning is that
0:51the secret to winning is knowing how to
0:53lose. How do you start the engine up
0:56again and what's the mistake you see
0:57people making?
0:58>> There's just a period where you just got
1:00to get through. Life might be bad now,
1:02but that doesn't mean it's always going
1:03to be that way. Life might be hard now,
1:05but it's not always going to be hard.
1:07And you're going to be okay. You're
1:08going to make it out [music] the other
1:09side. I think we should all give
1:10ourselves permission for our habits to
1:12shift based on the season that we're
1:13facing.
1:16>> Explain the four laws of behavior
1:18change.
1:18>> The first law is to make it [music]
1:20obvious. The second law is to make it
1:22attractive. The third law is to make it
1:24easy. [music] The easier, more
1:25convenient, frictionless, [snorts]
1:28simple a habit is, the more likely it is
1:30to be performed. And the fourth and
1:31final laws
1:33>> That's amazing.
1:35Hey, it's your buddy Mel. And before we
1:37jump into this unbelievable
1:40conversation with James Clear, you're
1:42about to learn that you're not the
1:43problem.
1:44The fact that you don't have systems is
1:46the problem. You're going to learn these
1:47systems. We're going to get right into
1:48it. You're going to love this. It's
1:50going to help you achieve your goals.
1:51But I have a goal too. My goal is that
1:5350% of you who watch here on YouTube are
1:56subscribers. And right before we were
1:58about to this episode, my team showed me
2:01this.
2:0257% of you who watched the Mel Robbins
2:05podcast here on YouTube are not
2:06subscribers.
2:08You're the kind of person who likes
2:09supporting people who support you. My
2:11goal is that we get to 50%. So please,
2:13if that subscribe button is lit up, it
2:15means you're not a subscriber. Please
2:17hit subscribe. It's free. That's how you
2:19can show your support to your friend Mel
2:21Robbins and that way you don't miss a
2:22thing. It also tells me and the team, oh
2:24my gosh, you love the guests that we're
2:26bringing you, the content that we're
2:27putting here in an attempt to support
2:29you in creating a better life. All
2:30right, thanks for doing that. You're
2:32ready to break bad habits and lock in
2:34new ones using James Clear's research. I
2:36bet you are. So let's jump in.
2:39James Clear, welcome to the Mel Robbins
2:42podcast.
2:42>> Hello, Mel. How are you?
2:44>> I am fantastic. I am so excited to
2:48be able to have this conversation with
2:50you because your work has made such a
2:52big difference in my life. I have bought
2:55Atomic Habits and pressed it into
2:58people's hands more times than I can
3:00count and to be able to unpack
3:03the simple but powerful insights today.
3:06I I've just been looking forward to this
3:08since I started the podcast.
3:09>> Mel, thank you so much. That's very nice
3:11of you to say.
3:11>> Well, it's true.
3:13And here's where I want to start.
3:15What will I experience in my life that
3:17could be different, James, if I take
3:19everything that you're about to share
3:21with us and teach us today to heart and
3:23I apply it to my life?
3:25>> [snorts]
3:25>> Well, I'll give you three things right
3:26off the bat. So first is action relieves
3:29anxiety. Action relieves anxiety. So if
3:32you're feeling stressed about something,
3:33you fear something, there's a problem
3:35that's kind of bothering you, taking
3:36[snorts] action on it reduces the fear
3:39that you feel about the problem because
3:41now you're influencing the outcome.
3:43Second thing is it builds resilience. So
3:45in a lot of ways I feel like the secret
3:48to winning is knowing how to lose.
3:50And what I mean is it's knowing how to
3:52bounce back from a loss. And so many of
3:55the things that we'll talk about today
3:57are about getting started and about
3:59making it easier for yourself to get
4:00started, particularly after you fail,
4:03after you suffer something. And so, the
4:06secret to winning is knowing how to
4:07lose, and these strategies will teach
4:10you how to be more resilient and bounce
4:11back from those losses. [snorts] And
4:13then, the third thing is better results.
4:15You know, um in a way,
4:18procrastinating is choosing to delay a
4:20better future. It's choosing to ignore
4:24the results that you could be having,
4:25the potential that you could be
4:26fulfilling. [snorts] And most of our
4:29outcomes in life are a lagging measure
4:32of the habits that precede them. So,
4:35your bank account is a lagging measure
4:37of your financial habits. Your um
4:40physical fitness is a lagging measure of
4:42your training habits. Your knowledge is
4:44a lagging measure of your reading
4:46habits. It's the thing that is the
4:48result of the action.
4:50>> You're basically saying the bank account
4:52I see today is a result of the habits
4:54that I had like a year ago?
4:56>> Yeah, almost all things that we have now
4:58are a result of the daily life, the
5:00daily system that we've been following
5:02for the last, say, 6 months or a year or
5:042 years. You know, it's it's the things
5:05that you do each day that lead you to
5:07the outcomes that you have right now.
5:09Now, look, I'm not saying that habits
5:11are the only thing that matter in life,
5:12right? You have luck and randomness.
5:14You've got misfortune. There are all
5:15sorts of things that can influence the
5:17final outcome,
5:18>> [snorts]
5:19>> but
5:20by definition, luck and randomness are
5:22not under your control,
5:24and your habits are.
5:25And the only reasonable rational
5:27approach in life is focus on the pieces
5:28of the situation that are within your
5:30control. And so, we also badly, this is
5:33interesting thing in life, we also badly
5:34want better results. You know, we also
5:36badly want to
5:38make more money or double productivity
5:39or be fit or reduce stress. But the
5:42irony is the results are not actually
5:44the thing that needs to change. It's
5:46like fix the inputs and the outputs will
5:48fix themselves. Fix the daily habits and
5:50you'll be led to a different
5:51destination. You know, in some ways, I
5:53feel like the two time frames that
5:54matter most in life are like 10 years
5:57and 1 hour.
5:58So, 10 years is shorthand for like what
6:01are the big meaningful things that you
6:03really care about in life? I mean, sit
6:04there and think about most of us, like
6:06what do we really want to do? You know,
6:07we want to have a marriage that we're
6:09proud of or raise kids that are
6:11successful or to build a business that
6:13thrives or to get in the best shape of
6:14your life. Whatever it is, whatever that
6:16big thing is, it's almost always a
6:18multi-year, sometimes a multi-decade
6:21process. So 10 years is shorthand for
6:23like what's that big vision?
6:24>> Yeah.
6:25>> And then 1 hour is shorthand for what
6:27can I do in the next hour that
6:29contributes to where I want to be in 10
6:30years? You know, like never let a day
6:32pass without doing something that is
6:35going to benefit you in a decade. And if
6:36you can live in those two mind frames,
6:38if you can have like both this long-term
6:40vision and this bias for short-term
6:42action, you don't let a day pass without
6:44doing something that's going to benefit
6:46you 10 years from now,
6:48you don't even you should need to wait
6:4910 years usually. Usually it's like a
6:50year or two and you're shocked by how
6:52much progress you made.
6:53>> Well, already you are dropping very
6:57clear,
6:58very simple and very powerful truths,
7:01I'm going to call them,
7:02that action relieves anxiety, which
7:04we're going to get dig into, that the
7:06secret to winning is knowing how to
7:08lose.
7:09And tell me the third one again about
7:11procrastination.
7:12>> Procrastinating on something important
7:13is choosing to delay a better future.
7:15>> Mm.
7:16>> So you know this is important to you,
7:18you know this is important to your life,
7:19but not taking action on it, now you're
7:20just pushing kicking the can down the
7:22road, right? Pushing the results further
7:23and further out. And so by um you the
7:26question you asked me was if I take this
7:28seriously and I follow through on these
7:29things, how will life change? And the
7:31answer is you'll no longer be delaying a
7:33better future, you'll be working toward
7:34it. You'll be contributing to it.
7:37>> Interview's over. I mean, that right
7:39[laughter] there
7:40absolutely I cannot wait to dig into
7:44this. What I would love to talk about
7:46first though, in case the person who is
7:48listening right now or who's watching on
7:50YouTube
7:52doesn't know what a habit is, what is
7:54the simplest definition for how to think
7:55about a habit and why are they so
7:57important?
7:58>> Sure. Okay, so good question. I'm going
8:00to define a habit in a couple of
8:01different ways. So the first way, if you
8:02were to talk to an academic or a
8:04researcher, they're going to tell you
8:05habits are these automatic, mindless
8:07routines, things you do without even
8:08really thinking about it.
8:09>> Okay. So like how you pull your pants
8:11up.
8:11>> Brush your teeth, tie your shoes, put
8:12your pants on the same leg each time.
8:14Like you know, it's just these automatic
8:16mindless behaviors. And it is true that
8:18there are many habits that are like that
8:20throughout the day. But there's I think
8:21a different type of way that we use the
8:24word habit to describe most things. Like
8:26if I were to ask you, Mel, what are some
8:27habits you're going to work on? You're
8:28not going to say stuff like that. You're
8:29going to say I'm trying to get in the
8:31habit of meditating every morning or I
8:33want to get in the habit of writing
8:34every day or going to the gym three days
8:36a week or whatever.
8:37>> Yes.
8:37>> And that is more
8:39[laughter] all those.
8:40Um
8:41that's more like a routine, you know, in
8:43a technical academic sense. It's not
8:45automatic the way that brushing your
8:46teeth might be. But what you mean is I
8:48want to do it consistently and you know,
8:50regularly. And so most of Atomic Habits
8:53is about that stuff. It's about how do
8:55we pick these big important things in
8:56our lives and do them with greater
8:58consistency and frequency.
8:59>> There are these
9:01simple systems and things and rules that
9:03you're going to teach us today that
9:05that I love because I think when you're
9:07somebody that's struggling to make
9:09changes stick in your life or to even
9:11get started, you see it as a deficit
9:15in your personality. You beat yourself
9:17up and say I have no willpower. I'm the
9:19only loser on the planet who doesn't
9:21have a morning routine. And what I love
9:24so much about your work is you're about
9:25to show us no, no, no, no, no.
9:28It's not a failure in you. It's a
9:29failure in the things that you're going
9:31to teach us.
9:31>> Well, you know, a lot of the
9:32conversation about habits kind of frames
9:34things that way. You know, like if you
9:36hear people say, oh you know, oh I wish
9:37I just had the discipline to follow
9:39through on this or hey, maybe if you
9:40really wanted to do it, then you would
9:42follow through. You know, maybe if you
9:43really wanted to do it, you would have
9:44more willpower or discipline or grit.
9:46And you know, I don't want to totally
9:48dismiss discipline and willpower and
9:50grit. Like they're all very important
9:51qualities in life. But I don't know that
9:53that answer is quite right. You know, I
9:56think many people, I bet you know, most
9:58people genuinely do want to improve,
10:00genuinely do want to perform at a higher
10:02level, genuinely would like to have
10:03better results. So what I would say is
10:06look, if you're struggling to improve,
10:08the problem isn't you.
10:10The problem is your system.
10:11You know, we don't change not because we
10:12don't want to change, but because we
10:15have the wrong system for change. And if
10:17you can have the right system, the right
10:18elements in place, then improving
10:20becomes much easier.
10:22>> Well, I flagged that exact quote. I'm
10:25going to read to you from Atomic Habits,
10:27page 27.
10:30If you're having trouble changing your
10:31habits, the problem isn't you. The
10:32problem is your system.
10:34Bad habits repeat themselves again and
10:36again, not because you don't want to
10:38change, but because you have the wrong
10:39system for change. You do not rise to
10:42the level of your goals, you fall to the
10:45level of your systems. And one of the
10:48core themes that you're going to teach
10:50us today
10:51is how to stop focusing on the goal or
10:54the change we want to make and really
10:56focus on the system that helps us create
11:00that goal. Would you define what exactly
11:04is a system?
11:07>> A system is just a collection of habits.
11:09So it can be it can be really small
11:10habits, but it's just it's a collection
11:12of habits that are all oriented toward
11:14the same outcome.
11:15>> I'm thinking about how to make the
11:17habits stick. So you're first talking
11:18about, okay, you've got this result that
11:20you want, you have this goal, but what
11:22is the system, the daily things that
11:24you're going to be doing in order to
11:26make this result happen in the future?
11:28Now, before we get into goals versus
11:31system, for somebody who hasn't read the
11:33book, could you
11:34talk about that concept in Atomic
11:38Habits, getting 1% better every day?
11:41>> This is one of the key ideas in the
11:42book, and it's just this idea that tiny
11:44changes add up to a surprising or
11:47remarkable degree. So the math of this,
11:49if you get 1% better each day for a
11:51year, so 1.01 to the 365th power, you
11:55get 37.78
11:57times better by the end of the year. If
11:59you get 1% worse, so 0.99 to the 365th
12:03power, you drive yourself almost all the
12:05way down to zero. I think it's 0.03. Um
12:08and so you have these results that are
12:11shockingly large or shockingly small
12:13based little tiny actions that you do
12:15each day.
12:16And I think it's interesting because,
12:18you know, like what is the difference
12:19between a choice that's 1% better or 1%
12:21worse? I mean, on any given day, not a
12:23whole lot. I mean, what is the
12:24difference between somebody who reads
12:26for 10 minutes today and somebody who
12:28doesn't read at all?
12:28>> Mm.
12:29>> Basically nothing. You know, like
12:30reading for 10 minutes does not make you
12:32a genius. Um but if you're the type of
12:35person who always goes to bed a little
12:36bit smarter than they were when they
12:38woke up, the person who always finds a
12:39little bit of time to learn something
12:40new,
12:42yeah, that can be a pretty meaningful
12:43difference in wisdom and insight,
12:44especially over a 10, 20, 30-year
12:46period.
12:47[snorts] So we all have these habits
12:48that we're doing each day and um it's
12:51easy to overlook them, but time will
12:53magnify whatever you feed it.
12:56So if you have good habits, time becomes
12:58your ally. Every day that goes by, you
13:00put yourself in a stronger position. If
13:01you have bad habits, time becomes your
13:03enemy. And every day that goes by, you
13:04dig the hole a little bit deeper. And
13:06that's really what getting 1% better is
13:08about. It's this emphasis on trajectory
13:11rather than position. Now if you had a a
13:13747 that was sitting on the runway in
13:15Los Angeles
13:16>> Yeah.
13:16>> and it takes off and it's going to go to
13:18New York, if you nudge the nose of the
13:20plane 6 ft at the start when it takes
13:23off, it you will land in Washington DC
13:24rather than New York City. And it's just
13:27about this difference that a tiny change
13:29can make, the the difference that a
13:31small improvement or being on a slightly
13:33different trajectory can result in.
13:35Small changes when they're compounded
13:37over a great distance or a long time can
13:40lead you to a very different result.
13:42>> It's hard to wrap your mind around the
13:44fact that if I just focus on getting 1%
13:48better
13:49every day for a year that I end up
13:5237.7
13:54times better? Can you give me like a
13:56like like what? If I do like a push-up
13:58every day and then maybe at the end of
13:59the day Like no, I'm serious. I want to
14:01visualize what this is because that's
14:02amazing.
14:03>> think first all first of all, it's not
14:05really about getting caught up in the
14:06exact number. It's more about the
14:08philosophy. It's like an attitude, an
14:09approach of can I try to find some small
14:11way to get better each day? Um the math
14:14of it is just compound interest, You
14:16know, like it's just it's just a
14:17compounding curve. And compound interest
14:19is almost always surprising what it
14:20turns into in the long run. And the
14:22effects of your habits can also almost
14:24always be surprising what they can turn
14:25into. Now, your habits are not exactly
14:28like a mathematical formula, right? Like
14:30your your life is not exactly like some
14:32equation that you're going to calculate.
14:33But the principle of trying to find some
14:35small way to improve and trusting with
14:38how that can accumulate and compound
14:40over time, that is very true. And it
14:42also, I think is
14:44very much how it feels on a given day,
14:46which is the actions feel kind of
14:48insignificant on a daily basis. They're
14:50very easy to overlook on a daily basis
14:53and very surprising what they turn into,
14:54good and bad, a year or two or three
14:57from now. And so it's really about
14:59mastering those small daily actions and
15:01what that can lead us to in the long
15:02run.
15:02>> What are the top two or three surprising
15:05ones that if you did 1% better every
15:07day, you'd be shocked at where you ended
15:08up in a year?
15:09>> You'd be surprised if you work on almost
15:11anything consistently for say two years,
15:14you're almost guaranteed to be in the
15:16top, you know, 1 to 5% of the population
15:19on it. I mean, nobody else is spending
15:20that amount of time on it. So that
15:23doesn't mean that you're going to play
15:24in the NBA if you practice basketball
15:25for two years, but it does mean you will
15:27be a much better basketball player.
15:29>> You know, James, let's talk more about
15:31this.
15:32There's a deeply personal story,
15:34something that happened to you
15:36that explains the 1% rule.
15:38>> Yeah, so I you know, I grew up in a
15:40family played lots of different sports
15:42and I played baseball for a long time.
15:44And when I was in high school, I
15:45suffered this really serious baseball
15:46injury where I was hit in the face with
15:48a baseball bat. And it was an accident,
15:50you know, classmate of mine took a swing
15:51and kind of bat came out of his hands
15:53and rotated through the air and struck
15:55me right between the eyes. Broke my
15:57nose,
15:58shattered both eye sockets,
16:00broke the bone behind my nose kind of
16:02deeper inside your skull. I was air
16:04cared to the hospital and I was in a
16:06medically induced coma overnight. And
16:08then the next day my vitals had kind of
16:10stabilized to the point where they could
16:11release me from the coma.
16:13And it was a really long road back.
16:16You know, I couldn't drive a car for the
16:17next months. When I went to my first
16:19physical therapy session, I was
16:21practicing basic motor patterns, like
16:22walking in a straight line, had double
16:24vision for weeks. [snorts] So it took a
16:26while.
16:28And
16:29all I wanted, you know, I was a
16:30teenager, I was 16 17 years old, all I
16:33wanted was to get back to being this
16:35normal young healthy kid before, you
16:37know, be able to drive a car and go to
16:39baseball and play and whatever. [snorts]
16:41But it was a time in my life when I was
16:43forced to start small. You know, I had
16:45to just focus on what can I do at this
16:47physical therapy session? Am I making
16:48any progress from today yeah, the last
16:50session to this one?
16:52You know, if I can't do anything
16:53physically, I couldn't play baseball for
16:54about a year, then, you know, can I
16:56study and do well on this test or try
16:58try to find some small win, some small
17:01improvement that I can make? [snorts]
17:02And all the things that we're about to
17:04talk about today, I would never have
17:06said it that way then. Like I wouldn't
17:07have said, oh, I'm just trying to get 1%
17:09better. You know, like I didn't I didn't
17:10have a language for it.
17:12But it was an experience that forced me
17:15to realize
17:17how small actions can be and still be
17:19meaningful.
17:20>> Yes.
17:20>> And that progress can take a long arc. I
17:25barely played baseball in high school.
17:26After the injury, I basically missed my
17:28whole the whole next year. I went to
17:29college. First year I came off the
17:32bench. Second season I was a starter.
17:34Third season I was team captain. Then
17:35fourth year I was an academic all
17:37American. And that's like a five or six
17:39year arc from that stuff. And I never
17:42played professionally.
17:43But I look back on that and I feel like
17:45I was able to maximize my potential.
17:47>> Mm.
17:47>> And you know, we all have things in life
17:50that we don't ask for. And this was one
17:52for me. It was one of the first things I
17:53said when I woke up the next day was I
17:54never asked for this. But you have to
17:56get out of that self-pity loop. It just
17:59does not serve you. A bad attitude and
18:01self-pity makes every problem harder.
18:04And so you're just layering on another
18:07challenge to the already challenging
18:08situation.
18:09[snorts] And so instead, I tried to be
18:11as positive as I could about it, you
18:12know, and try to find things to to
18:13improve each day. And again, it took
18:15five or six years, but I think that
18:17process taught me a lot about building
18:19small habits and bouncing back from
18:21challenges.
18:22And so, eventually, 10 years later, when
18:25it came time to write the book,
18:27I think the book is better because I
18:29struggled. It was better because I had
18:31to go through that process. And now I
18:33know, just like everybody else, how hard
18:35it is to build habits and how long it
18:37takes to make progress and, you know,
18:39how challenging it can be to see the
18:40improvement that you've been wishing
18:41for. And so I think those struggles
18:43ended up resulting in better material.
18:45>> Wow, that that story really struck me
18:48when I read the book and I'm so glad you
18:50shared it because it does illustrate the
18:52power of the 1% rule.
18:54>> The human mind is a learning machine.
18:57Almost every skill that you have today
18:59was previously unknown to you. When you
19:01were born, you didn't know how to tie
19:02your shoes or cut a tomato or make
19:04spaghetti or whatever.
19:06But you know all that stuff now because
19:08you practiced it.
19:10And you can get better at anything that
19:12you practice.
19:13I think it's interesting if you look at
19:14people, what are people spending their
19:16time practicing each day? You know, like
19:18a lot of people are practicing the art
19:20of getting mad on social media. People
19:22are practicing the the fine craft of
19:24being fearful and reading about all the
19:26ways that the world is falling apart.
19:28They're practicing scrolling their
19:30phone. You know, like what what are you
19:31trying to get good at? I think it's
19:33worth to ask like what am I practicing
19:35each day? What am I training for? And
19:37every moment is a repetition and your
19:39brain will automatically get better at
19:42the things that you repeat.
19:44Whatever you repeat, you reinforce. And
19:46so you want to make sure you're
19:47reinforcing the right things.
19:49>> What I love about what you just said
19:51is that oftentimes when you're thinking
19:53about habits, you're thinking about the
19:55new ones. And we don't often have that
19:58moment of honest reflection with
20:00ourselves where we say, wait a minute, I
20:03already have a lot of habits.
20:05And if I don't like how my life looks
20:07and feels right now, whether that's the
20:09balance of my bank account or the way
20:10that my I feel in my body or the kind of
20:14relationship I'm in or my drinking
20:16habits or what I'm doing with my free
20:18time,
20:20then
20:21changing my habits is the way I changed
20:24circumstances of my life.
20:26>> here's an interesting one for you. I
20:28Something like scrolling your phone or
20:29whatever. Most people would be like,
20:31yeah, that's probably one I don't want
20:32to do as much. But what I find
20:34interesting are the habits that used to
20:36serve me well, but don't serve me as
20:39well now. That Those have been much
20:41harder for me to give up. The way that I
20:43think about it is
20:44I like to ask myself this question of
20:45what season am I in right now?
20:47>> Mm.
20:47>> You know, and life has a lot of
20:49different seasons. Sometimes There can
20:50be all kinds of reasons that seasons
20:52shift. You know, maybe it's you get
20:53married or you have a kid or maybe you
20:55move to a city or start a new job. I was
20:57just talking to a mom who she just
20:58became an empty nester and she's like,
21:00you know, for 25 years I've been taking
21:01care of these kids. Now all of a sudden
21:03nobody's here. Like what season am I in?
21:05And what I've slowly learned I I can be
21:08a slow learner in a lot of ways um is
21:11when your seasons change, your habits
21:12often need to change.
21:14And I found you know, for me I a lot of
21:16the time I'll have a season shift and
21:18then I keep trying to force fit my old
21:20habits into this new season. It takes me
21:2318 months to realize, hey, something
21:25needs to change. And
21:27I think this is an important
21:28conversation to have about habits
21:29because people don't say this
21:31explicitly, but a lot of the time when
21:34people are focused on their habits and
21:36they start something new,
21:37they don't say it to themselves, but
21:39they're kind of thinking in the back of
21:40their mind, what would it look like to
21:41be successful with this? Oh, well, I
21:42would just do this habit forever is what
21:45it And if I stop doing it at some point,
21:47that must mean that I failed or I quit
21:49or something like that. I I don't think
21:51it has to be like that at all. You know,
21:52like take my writing habit, for example.
21:55For the first three years I wrote two
21:57articles a week. Those are about 2,000
21:58words each. Then I signed a book deal
22:00for Atomic Habits. Season changes. Can't
22:03Can't write those anymore. So that
22:04shifted. Then I worked on the book for
22:05three years. Now uh for the last five
22:08years I've been writing a newsletter
22:09once a week um that's much shorter um
22:12but at no point in there do I feel like
22:14my writing habit failed. Just cuz I'm
22:16not writing two articles a week anymore
22:18doesn't mean that I don't know, I
22:20screwed up or something. Um the habit
22:22just needed to change shape based on the
22:24season that I was in. And I think we
22:26should all give ourselves permission for
22:28our habits to shift based on the season
22:30that we're facing.
22:30>> That's so relatable and helpful, because
22:32as you were talking about writing, I was
22:34thinking, well, that's just happened for
22:35me around exercise and around nutrition.
22:39The more that I learn about the
22:41difference between men and women
22:43physiologically, the more I learn about
22:45hormone changes in women, the more I'm
22:47like, oh, wait a minute, running, yoga,
22:49that's not going to help me the way that
22:52it used to. I got to focus on protein
22:54and I got to focus on resistance
22:56training. Different season, different
22:58habits.
22:58>> Mhm.
22:59>> Makes a lot of sense.
23:00>> Yeah, I think knowing which season
23:02you're in right now is a really helpful
23:03thing. There there's a certain There are
23:05like some questions I like to ask just
23:07for self-awareness. They help bubble up
23:10some insights about yourself that then
23:12lead to some discoveries about maybe how
23:14I should shift my habits or whatever. So
23:16some of the questions I like One is,
23:18what am I optimizing for?
23:20Different people optimize for different
23:21things. You will probably optimize for
23:23different things at different points in
23:25your life. Sometimes you optimize for
23:26making money, sometimes you optimize for
23:28free time or creative freedom, sometimes
23:30you optimize for family. But whatever it
23:33is, the answer is probably very personal
23:34to you and the season that you're in. So
23:36what am I optimizing for?
23:38Second question is, what season am I in
23:40right now? So we already talked about
23:41that.
23:42The third one can be a little bit
23:44cutting, but it's if I I call it like
23:46the It's kind of like the alien test or
23:48something. Imagine Imagine that an alien
23:50comes down from outer space, right? And
23:51it's going to follow you around
23:52throughout your day. Can't speak your
23:54language, can't communicate to you.
23:56If it could only see your actions and
23:58not hear your words, what would it say
24:00your priorities are?
24:01The interesting thing I think especially
24:03about smart people is you can come up
24:05with a good excuse for most things. You
24:07have very good reason for why things
24:09aren't happening. And so it's very very
24:11easy for you to talk your way out of why
24:14things didn't occur.
24:15But the alien can't hear you. It doesn't
24:17care. It's only looking at what you're
24:19spending your time on. And it's just a
24:21nice way to kind of level set and, you
24:24know, see, okay, I say things are a
24:25priority, but how am I actually spending
24:27my time?
24:27>> Tell me why these tiny changes create
24:30such massive transformation, and why
24:32it's frankly the only way.
24:33>> First of all, it matters because it's
24:35doable. You know, you really only have a
24:37certain amount of time each day that you
24:39can work with. Everybody says, oh, you
24:40have the same 24 hours in the day, but
24:41it's even less than that. I think a more
24:43useful way to frame it is how many hours
24:45per day are under your control.
24:47>> Ooh, I love that. How many How many
24:48hours
24:49>> There's very few, you know? It's very
24:51few.
24:51>> Thank you for telling the truth.
24:52>> And so really it's about what do you do
24:55with those one or two hours, you know?
24:56Maybe three, I don't know, but there's,
24:58you know, how many are really under your
24:59control. And so that amount of time is
25:02what you have to work with. And so for
25:03that reason, starting small makes sense.
25:06But the bigger thing, and I think that
25:08this is something I've learned over
25:09time, and especially through that
25:11injury,
25:13is how fun it can be to make a small
25:15amount of progress. Even if you aren't
25:16where you wanted to be yet,
25:18you feel good, you know? You have
25:20something to look back on and be like, I
25:21got a little bit better today. So much
25:23of life is lived in this gray zone. Am I
25:25a better spouse today than I was
25:26yesterday? Am I a better friend? Did I
25:28improve my career? I, you know, I don't
25:29know. It's hard to know on any given
25:30day. And so anytime that you can make a
25:33little bit of progress and be able to
25:34look back on that and be like, you know
25:35what, that was better than yesterday,
25:37that feels really nice.
25:38>> Yes.
25:39>> And so I think that that's another
25:41reason. And then the third thing, and
25:43this is really what getting 1% better is
25:45actually about.
25:46>> Okay.
25:46>> It's an it's about an emphasis on
25:48trajectory rather than position.
25:51>> You know, there's
25:52>> what that means.
25:52>> Well, there's a lot of discussion about
25:53position in life. You know, what's the
25:55number on the scale? How much money's in
25:57the bank account? What's the current
25:58stock price? What are the quarterly
25:59earnings? We have all these
26:00measurements, all these metrics for
26:02determining our current position.
26:04>> Uh-huh.
26:04>> And then if the position isn't what we
26:06wanted it to be, if the number isn't
26:07what we like, then we get frustrated or
26:09we feel guilty or we start to judge
26:11ourselves or
26:12>> yet. Why isn't this working? I haven't
26:13made it. I don't have the money. I'm
26:15never going to get out of debt.
26:16>> And you hear people say things like this
26:17all the time. I've been running for a
26:18month. Why can't I see a change in my
26:20body?
26:21Our, you know, team has been meeting
26:22every Friday for the last 6 months. We
26:24still haven't shipped this feature. And
26:25that that's when like the frustration
26:27starts to build.
26:27>> Uh-huh.
26:28>> And Uh it is not actually about your
26:31current position. What instead it is
26:33about is your current trajectory. Am I
26:34getting 1% better or 1% worse?
26:36>> How do you know?
26:38One of the things and I love that your
26:39last name's clear. You have the best
26:42>> Yeah.
26:42>> on brand name for the way that your
26:44brain thinks. But one of the biggest
26:47things that I see from the folks that
26:50listen around the world is not being
26:54clear about what you want and not
26:57knowing what you want. And so is there
26:59any way that you think about
27:02how to even understand this concept of
27:07trajectory, right?
27:08>> So I don't think there's one answer. I
27:10think there are many to this. Um but
27:12first thing is yes, you're right. Many
27:14people lack think what they lack is
27:15motivation, but what they really lack is
27:17clarity.
27:18Um you know, you feel like, oh, I just
27:20need to get more motivated. But what you
27:21really need to know is what is what is
27:22the most important thing? What am I
27:23working on? The the motivation is
27:25actually quite easy if you're very clear
27:27about what the most important thing is.
27:29But usually people have seven things
27:31that this are important to them and then
27:32it's not easy because you're being
27:33pulled in all these different
27:34directions. [snorts] Um
27:36the second thing is some of the best
27:38advice that I got early on in my
27:40business career was try things until
27:42something comes easily. And I think you
27:44can apply that advice advice almost
27:45anything. Try things until something
27:47comes easily. And the point is
27:50there's this common um refrain of try,
27:53try, try again. You know, if things
27:55don't work, try, try, try again. I think
27:56instead it would be better if it was
27:58phrased if things that don't work, try,
28:01try, try differently.
28:02You need to you need to keep trying. You
28:04need to keep showing up, but you need to
28:05try different lines of attack. You know,
28:07different things work better than
28:09others. And so by trying a range of
28:11options, especially early in a process,
28:13you put yourself in a much better
28:15position to succeed. So here I'm going
28:17to try to tie all this together. So if I
28:18could add one thing to Atomic Habits
28:20that wasn't in the book,
28:21it would [snorts] be this question of
28:22what would this look like if it was fun?
28:25What would this look like if it was fun?
28:26What would it look like if meditating
28:27was fun? What would it look like if
28:29going to the gym was fun? What would it
28:31look like if, you know, making sales
28:33call each morning was fun? [snorts] And
28:35that doesn't mean that your habits are
28:38going to feel like the most fun thing in
28:39your life. You know, it's not like, oh,
28:41this will feel like going to a concert
28:42or something. [snorts] But let's take
28:44just the like a common one like
28:45exercise.
28:47A lot of people go to the gym in
28:48January, and I feel like they kind of
28:49are going because they feel like they
28:51should go or society wants them to go or
28:54something. But [snorts] if we just take
28:5610 minutes and write out what are ways
28:58that we could live a healthy active
29:00lifestyle, there's dozens. You know, go
29:02to the gym, kayak, rock climb, do yoga,
29:05like you can come up with a lot of
29:06things, right? And I think you should
29:08just write that list out for whatever
29:09the habit is that you're working on, and
29:11then look at the 10 or 20 or 50 things
29:14that you have, and then say which one of
29:15these sounds like the most fun to me?
29:17You know, which one of these sounds most
29:18engaging? And you're much more likely to
29:20follow through on that than you are on
29:23something else.
29:23>> Okay, can I give you an example?
29:25Because this is such an important nuance
29:29that
29:30could truly change your ability to make
29:34something meaningful stick. Because when
29:36you started talking about the fact that,
29:38you know, as as you're trying exercise,
29:40let's say,
29:42I have the hardest time motivating
29:43myself. I'm very clear that I want to
29:47exercise four or five days a week
29:49because I want to live a healthy,
29:51vibrant life. I want to be hiking into
29:53my 90s and 100s. I want to be able to
29:56dance at all my kids and grandkids'
29:57weddings. Like that's the why, and I
30:00know that that means today I got to do
30:01this annoying thing called exercise. And
30:04it's always befoozled me that my husband
30:06with zero resistance, zero friction can
30:09just walk right into a gym, motivate
30:11himself. My daughters like that too. Not
30:13me. I wander around like an idiot. I get
30:15bored. I can't stay motivated. I don't
30:17know.
30:18What I've discovered is that if I go to
30:21a class,
30:22it's fun.
30:23>> Mm.
30:23>> And so that question, how could I make
30:26this fun? What if this were fun? What
30:27would that look like?
30:29That changes everything.
30:30>> The first key, the first hurdle to clear
30:33is to find things that are genuinely
30:35interesting to you, that genuinely fun
30:37to you. You know, the person who felt
30:39like it was a hassle at the start or it
30:41kind of feels like it's a chore and
30:42they're sort of making themselves do it,
30:45as soon as it gets hard, they're going
30:46to stop. They didn't want to do it to
30:47begin with. But the person who is having
30:49fun, the person who's engaged and
30:51interested, the person who's curious and
30:53excited about it, they're way more
30:54likely to stick with it when it gets
30:56hard.
30:57>> You know, one of the things that I'd
30:58love to have you unpack for us is, you
31:02know, when someone's sitting around
31:03waiting for motivation
31:06and they're struggling to either get
31:08started or they're struggling as they're
31:09waking up today to do the thing they say
31:12that they want to do, and could you
31:13unpack for the person listening why
31:17you have to take the action first and
31:20how motivation shows up after the
31:22action, not before?
31:24>> So
31:26a habit is a behavior that you want to
31:27do consistently, right? You want to do
31:29it
31:30>> to do consistently.
31:31>> to do consistently.
31:32>> Okay.
31:32>> Motivation, we all know, sometimes
31:34you're motivated, sometimes you're not.
31:36And motivation rises and falls
31:37throughout the day. So why would you
31:39want a behavior that you want to do
31:41consistently to rely on something that
31:44fluctuates? It doesn't make sense. And
31:46so this is a good reason why you want to
31:48scale habits down to a level where
31:50they're so easy to do, getting into it
31:52is so simple that you'll do it even when
31:55motivation is low.
31:57And so this is another reason for the
31:59phrase atomic habits, right? It's about
32:00making it tiny and small so that you
32:02stick to it even when motivation isn't
32:03there.
32:04>> Well, what does that mean to scale down
32:05if I'm trying to meditate or I'm trying
32:07to exercise or I'm trying to make that
32:10sales call?
32:11>> I'll give you two examples. So there's
32:12this concept in chemistry called
32:14activation energy. And it's how much
32:15energy is required to activate a
32:17reaction. So you can think about like
32:19striking a match. There's a certain
32:20amount of effort that you have to put in
32:22to strike the match and for the flame to
32:24start, okay?
32:25Your habits are kind of like that. Some
32:27habits have really big activation
32:28energy. If you want to do 100 pushups a
32:30day, that requires a certain amount of
32:32motivation. You got to keep doing sets
32:33of five and 10 throughout the day or
32:34whatever. And if it gets to 9:00 one day
32:37and it's time to go to bed and you
32:39haven't done your 100 push-ups yet, you
32:41got to kind of motivate yourself quite a
32:42bit to get that in before you go to
32:44sleep.
32:44>> I need gasoline for the bonfire in that
32:45case. Yes.
32:47>> if your uh objective instead is to do 10
32:49push-ups a day, well then it's 9:00 and
32:52you still haven't got them in yet, but
32:53you're like, I can probably do 10 before
32:54I go to sleep. That's that's probably
32:56doable. Um and so you can see these two
32:59habits have very different activation
33:00energies. They have very different
33:02amount of effort that they're requiring
33:03from you. So, scaling it down is
33:05choosing the thing that's easy to do
33:06that has small activation energy.
33:07>> be 10 push-ups a day.
33:09>> Do 10 instead of 100. Read instead of
33:11reading 30 books a year, it's read one
33:12page, right? It's like stuff like that.
33:14Scale it down.
33:15>> Okay.
33:15>> There is something that can be tied to
33:17this or is related to this, which is a
33:19phrase that I feel like I remind myself
33:22of a lot, which is reduce the scope but
33:23stick to the schedule. So, there's so
33:25many times where the day kind of gets
33:27away from you, you know, like thing
33:29things get busy. Let's say you wanted to
33:30work out today, and then you look up the
33:32clock and you know, you were planning on
33:33doing an hour workout or 45 minutes and
33:35you only have
33:3615 or 20 minutes.
33:39In that moment,
33:40the conversation I used to have with
33:42myself was, well, I guess I don't have
33:44time to work out today. Uh and then you
33:46move on. But instead, what I'm trying is
33:48to say reduce the scope but stick to the
33:50schedule.
33:51And so I'll go down, I'll change in my
33:52workout clothes and go down to the my
33:54basement and go down to this little home
33:56gym area that I have, and maybe I only
33:58have 15 minutes and I can only do one
34:00set of squats, but that's what I do. And
34:02in some ways, I feel like the bad days
34:05matter more than the good days.
34:07You know, it's showing up on the days
34:09when it's not ideal. It's showing up on
34:10the days when you don't have energy or
34:12time or capacity that keeps the habit
34:14alive.
34:15And if you keep the habit alive, all you
34:17need is time.
34:19But if you throw up a zero, now the
34:20streak is broken and
34:23sometimes one day can turn into five
34:25days and can turn into three months and
34:26then you find yourself wanting to get
34:27back on track. And I think rather than
34:30asking yourself, what can I do on my
34:32best day, you should start by asking
34:34what can I stick to even on the bad
34:35days.
34:36>> Oh, I love that. So,
34:37>> becomes your baseline.
34:38>> Okay, so you've already given us two
34:39incredible things which is,
34:41what if this were fun? What would it
34:42look like if it were fun? And as you're
34:44thinking about the beginning of a habit,
34:50defining it by what could I actually
34:52stick to even on my worst day?
34:53>> Right.
34:54>> How
34:55is it that motivation shows up after the
34:58action?
34:59>> Because you have this feeling of
35:00progress. Now you have something that
35:02you Oh, look, I've made some I've made
35:04some movement forward. You know, you
35:05have something to look at. It's the
35:06difference between um hope and evidence.
35:10Now you have some evidence, and so you
35:12have a reason to believe it. Say, oh,
35:14look, you know, look at myself moving
35:15forward. And that starts to feel really
35:18good once you stack a couple days
35:19together. You know, it doesn't I think
35:21this is one of the lessons of my work,
35:23which is it doesn't take much to feel
35:25good again. You'd be surprised what you
35:27can do with five good minutes. You know,
35:29five good minutes of conversation can
35:30restore a relationship. Five good
35:32minutes of exercise will leave you
35:34winded and like reset your energy and
35:35mood for the day. Five good minutes of
35:37writing will make you feel like the
35:38manuscript is moving forward again. It
35:41doesn't take much to feel good. And so
35:43you just need a little bit to get you
35:45get yourself back on the path.
35:47>> That's the entire premise of this
35:50podcast, that it's
35:52takes so little to make you feel good
35:55again. And once you do, the progress and
35:57the momentum kicks in. If you're the
36:00kind of person
36:01who's listening and you're like, God,
36:03I've just failed too many times, and so
36:08you feel discouraged about starting in,
36:10whether it's putting yourself back out
36:12there on the dating scene or it's
36:15dusting off your resume after getting
36:17laid off and feeling like what value do
36:20I have to offer? Or you tried yet again
36:23to lose the weight or to stick to the
36:25meditation and you failed again. So what
36:27is the failure premortem?
36:29>> Okay, so first you want optimism. My
36:31little shorthand is I I don't want to be
36:34my own bottleneck. Okay? So um
36:37I try to work backwards from magic at
36:39the start. What would the magical
36:40outcome be? What would the thing that I
36:42really want to achieve like? What's the
36:44optimal outcome look like? [snorts] Then
36:46the next phase, this is where the
36:47failure pre-mortem comes in. So you
36:49switch from optimism to pessimism. All
36:51right, I know where I want to go. So now
36:53let's be let's be my own critic for a
36:55minute. The failure pre-mortem, it's
36:57just the simple question of if we look
36:59back six six months from now and this is
37:01failed, where does it fail? So it's just
37:04your pre-analyzing where the potential
37:07points of failure
37:07>> you even get started. You haven't done
37:09anything yet.
37:10>> But you're trying to be the one to
37:11figure out what are the flaws and what
37:13I'm about to do. And so the the failure
37:15pre-mortem just says if this fails,
37:17where does it fail?
37:18And you can come up with all kinds of
37:20things like that. Let me give you an
37:21example for habits. So like let's say
37:22that you want to start going to the gym.
37:24>> Yes.
37:24>> And you're like, well, if this plan
37:26fails, where does it fail? And you might
37:29fail because you don't know which gym
37:31you're going to use. So you're like, all
37:31right, I'll pick one that's on the route
37:33of my commute each day. So then you say,
37:35okay, it might fail because I don't have
37:37my gym clothes ready. So you're like,
37:38all right, I need to set my clothes out
37:39the night before, have my gym bag ready
37:41early. I [snorts] had one person who
37:43they were like, I am going to the gym
37:46and I wish I could stick to it more, but
37:47I just this gym doesn't have a water
37:49fountain. And so when I go there, I'm
37:51like, I always forget to bring my water
37:53bottle and that's enough to make me be
37:54like, I'm not going to go because they I
37:56they don't have a water fountain there.
37:57And little points of friction like that
37:59kind sound kind of silly when you say
38:01it, but you're like, yeah, that's a
38:02that's a potential point of failure and
38:04you need to have a plan for getting your
38:05water bottle full and make sure that you
38:06bring that each day. And so you start to
38:09check off these boxes of what are the
38:11things that could hold you back from
38:12this plan working. And then you switch
38:14back to optimism because what you don't
38:16want is to go into this process feeling
38:18like you're doubting yourself to begin
38:20with. Yeah.
38:21>> I even doing this?
38:22>> That's not that attitude is just going
38:23to make it harder. So you start with
38:25optimism, you switch to pessimism, try
38:27to poke the holes in your argument, and
38:28then you're back we're back to optimism
38:29again. We want everybody on board and
38:31feel like we've got the right attitude
38:32going into it.
38:32>> Okay. I love this because one of the
38:35things that I immediately thought as you
38:37were using the gym example is I
38:39immediately could pop into
38:42the pessimism mindset.
38:43>> Mm.
38:44>> And I think I'm a good problem solver,
38:45but I was like, okay, well, I don't know
38:46what do at a gym. And so I walk around
38:48and then feel overwhelmed and
38:49intimidated because I'm not quite sure
38:51what the routine should be, and then I
38:52leave.
38:53>> Mhm.
38:53>> The other one is I would immediately see
38:56that I would have shot the goal too high
38:58>> Mhm.
38:58>> and would have started with an hour
39:00every day for the next six months. And
39:03so now I'm like, oh, wait a minute, I
39:04got to reduce the time and stick to the
39:06schedule and what could I get done on my
39:08worst day? So what could the goal be? So
39:10now I'm using your tools. And then I
39:13finally am now saying, well, I would
39:15about a weekend go this isn't fun
39:17anymore.
39:18And so I can see how you can anticipate
39:23ways in which you would break your own
39:26>> Mhm.
39:27>> ability to make it happen.
39:29>> So two things here. The first is some of
39:32this depends on how you're measuring
39:33things. It can really be helpful to pick
39:35a different form of measurement. So if
39:38you take like going to the gym, what's
39:40the common measurement? Everybody's
39:41like, what's the scale say and how do
39:42you look in the mirror? That's what
39:43everybody's measuring. But let's forget
39:45about that. Measure it in a totally
39:47different way. So this reader, his
39:49name's Mitch, and I mentioned him in
39:50Atomic Habits.
39:52When he first started going to the gym,
39:54right? So he lost over 100 lbs. He's
39:55kept it off for more than a decade now.
39:57And when he first started going, he had
39:58this strange little rule for himself
40:00where he wasn't allowed to stay for
40:02longer than 5 minutes.
40:03So he'd get in the car, drive to the
40:05gym, get out, do half an exercise, get
40:07back in the car, drive home. And it
40:09sounds silly, you know, you're like this
40:11doesn't this is not going to get him the
40:12results that you want.
40:13[snorts] But
40:14if you take a step back, what you
40:16realize is he was mastering the art of
40:18showing up.
40:19Right? He was becoming the type of
40:20person that went to the gym 4 days a
40:22week, even if it was only for 5 minutes.
40:24And that's that's the different form of
40:26measurement there. He's not measuring
40:27the results. He's measuring did I show
40:29up or not.
40:30And that gives him something else to win
40:33on in the early days. [snorts] I think
40:36this is a pretty deep truth about
40:37habits, something that people like often
40:39overlook, which is a habit must be
40:41established before it can be improved.
40:44It has to become the
40:45>> a second. A habit must be established
40:47before it can be improved.
40:49>> Habit must be
40:49>> established before it can be improved.
40:51You have to standardize before you
40:52optimize. I mean, how often in our lives
40:54do we try to optimize things before we
40:56get started? You know, you're so busy
40:57finding the perfect sales strategy, the
41:00best workout plan, the ideal diet to
41:02follow.
41:03>> Best journal.
41:04>> Right? You want You want to optimize
41:06everything from the start. Um but
41:08>> it makes me think I'm doing it, James.
41:10>> Right. That's exactly it. It's the
41:11>> of procrastination for me.
41:13>> I call it the difference between motion
41:15and action.
41:16So motion are things that make you feel
41:18like you're making progress. So I'm
41:20going to look up a trainer that maybe
41:22could help me at the gym. Doesn't matter
41:24how many times you look up trainers in
41:25your area, it's not going to do anything
41:27to get you fit. Doesn't mean you don't
41:29need a trainer. It doesn't mean you
41:30shouldn't use one. I'm not saying that.
41:31I'm just saying that action is never
41:33going to result in the outcome that you
41:35want.
41:36Doing [snorts] a set of squats or doing
41:38five push-ups, that now that's something
41:39that could get the result that you want.
41:42[snorts] Um and so uh researching
41:44business names. I want to launch a
41:45business. Let me Or designing a logo.
41:47Doesn't matter how many times you design
41:49your business logo, it's never going to
41:50result in a paying customer.
41:52Um doesn't mean a business doesn't need
41:54a logo, but it's just one is motion, one
41:56is action. So action is a a behavior
41:59that can get the result that you want.
42:01Motion is a behavior that
42:03makes you feel like you're making
42:04progress.
42:05>> um one of the things that I love about
42:07the way that you think about habits and
42:09behavior change is you talk about the
42:12connection between identity
42:15and behavior.
42:16And
42:17you write, you know,
42:19who do I want to become is a way better
42:22question to ask yourself than what do I
42:24want to achieve?
42:25Why?
42:26>> I think it's very natural to start with
42:27results and outcomes, but
42:30the results are not the thing that you
42:31really need to change. You know, what
42:33you need is to be consistent, to stick
42:34with it. You need to show up
42:35consistently. You need to fall through
42:37on, you know, the actions that are going
42:38to lead to that outcome.
42:40So
42:41I kind of think of it almost like the
42:42layers of an onion.
42:43>> Okay.
42:44>> So the outermost layer of the onion are
42:46the results that you want the outcome.
42:47So let's say lose 40 lbs.
42:49The next layer in is the action, the
42:52plan that you have, the the actions that
42:54you take. Most of the time when people
42:56want to make a change, they're like,
42:58yeah, I, you know, I want this result,
43:00so I need to do follow through on this
43:01plan. I need to go to the gym four days
43:02a week and eat on this diet or whatever.
43:04And the implicit assumption is if I do
43:07those things and get that result, then
43:09I'll be who I want to be. I'll I'll be
43:11happy with who I am. I'll be more like
43:13the person that I hope to be.
43:15>> [snorts]
43:15>> But the innermost layer of the onion,
43:17the core, is who you are, your identity,
43:20who who you become. And so it's like
43:23what, how, and who. And instead of
43:26starting with what you want and figuring
43:28out how to do it and assuming that I
43:31will then be the person I want to be, I
43:32think it is better to invert that
43:34process and start by saying, who do I
43:37wish to become? Or in this example, who
43:40is the type of person that could lose 40
43:41lbs? Well, maybe it's the type of person
43:44who doesn't miss workouts.
43:46And then you're focused on that, not on
43:48the weight. And so what it does is by
43:51focusing on the identity, it kind of
43:52inverts how you think about the habit,
43:54rather than it being about hitting a
43:56certain number on the scale, it becomes
43:57about becoming a certain type of person,
44:00being the type of person who doesn't
44:01miss workouts
44:02in this example. Your habits are how you
44:04embody a particular identity. So every
44:08day that you make your bed, you embody
44:10the identity of someone who's clean and
44:12organized. If you study biology for 20
44:15minutes on Tuesday night, you embody the
44:17identity of someone who is studious.
44:19Your habits provide evidence of who you
44:21are. This is the real reason, the deeper
44:23reason that habits matter. We often talk
44:26about habits as mattering because of the
44:28external results that they get you. Hey,
44:30habits will help you be more productive
44:31or make more money or reduce stress. And
44:33like, look, habits can do all that stuff
44:35and that's great. But the real reason,
44:37the true reason that habits matter is
44:40that every action you take is like a
44:42vote for the type of person you wish to
44:43become. So no, doing one push-up does
44:47not transform your body, but it does
44:49cast a vote for I'm the type of person
44:50that doesn't miss workouts. And no,
44:53giving one bit of positive feedback to
44:55somebody on your team does not make you
44:56the world's best leader, but it does
44:58cast a vote for, I'm the type of team
45:00member who cares about the people around
45:01them. [snorts] And I think this is a
45:03little bit different than what you often
45:04hear. You often hear something like fake
45:06it till you make it.
45:06>> Yeah.
45:07>> And I don't necessarily have anything
45:09wrong with fake it till you make it.
45:11It's asking you to believe something
45:12positive about yourself. However,
45:15it's asking you to believe something
45:16positive without having evidence for it.
45:19And we have a word for beliefs that
45:21don't have evidence, call that delusion,
45:23right? Like we have this mismatch
45:24between what you say you are and what
45:26you're actually doing.
45:27And [snorts] so my encouragement is to
45:29let the behavior lead the way.
45:31To let
45:32sending one email or writing one
45:34sentence or meditating for 5 minutes, to
45:36let that small action be evidence that
45:38in that moment you were that kind of
45:39person. And then as you start to cast
45:41votes for that identity, you have every
45:43reason in the world to believe it. And
45:45so I think this is what really gets
45:47habits to stick. It is the
45:50reinforcement of your story. It's the
45:53reinforcement of how you see yourself
45:55and the identity that you're trying to
45:56build. And that's why I say I think we
45:58should often start by asking not what do
46:00I wish to achieve, but who do I wish to
46:03become? And how are my actions
46:04reinforcing that? And if you can get
46:06those two things aligned, now you have a
46:08really deep through line from your daily
46:11actions to this bigger, larger identity
46:13that you want to build. And if you can
46:15connect the things that you do each day,
46:17those small choices with the person that
46:18you want to be in the long run,
46:20you can see how important they are even
46:22when they're little.
46:23>> I want to make sure that as you're
46:24listening or watching, you really
46:27got that question, who do I want to
46:29become?
46:31If you start there and you start with a
46:34vision for the kind of person you want
46:36to become, and then we invert that onion
46:39that you were talking about, so you know
46:40who you want to become, then you ask
46:42yourself, well how do I become that kind
46:44of person and what do I need to do?
46:46Now we have a road map that leads you to
46:49the small daily habits that cast the
46:51vote to get you there.
46:53>> I think what we're ultimately trying to
46:54get to is a place where you take pride
46:56in being that kind of person.
46:57>> Well, this brings us to one of my
46:58absolute favorite parts of Atomic Habits
47:01and your research. This changed my
47:03entire mindset
47:05and honestly changed the type of person
47:09that I am. And it's the difference
47:11between setting goals
47:14versus focusing on systems. And so I
47:17want to read to you from this section
47:20titled Forget About Goals, Focus on
47:23Systems Instead. And you write for many
47:25years uh this was how I approached my
47:28habits.
47:29Each one was a goal to be reached. I set
47:32goals for the grades I wanted to get in
47:33school, for the weights I wanted to lift
47:35in the gym, for the profits I wanted to
47:36earn in business. I succeeded at a few,
47:39but I failed at a lot of them.
47:41The results had very little to do with
47:43the goals I set and nearly everything to
47:46do with the systems I followed. What's
47:50the difference between systems and
47:52goals? It's a distinction I first
47:54learned from Scott Adams, a cartoonist
47:56behind the Dilbert comic.
47:58Goals are about the results you want to
48:00achieve. Systems are about the processes
48:04that lead to those results. And you
48:06write about this just one example that
48:08made so much sense.
48:10If you're a coach, your goal might be to
48:12win a championship,
48:14but your system
48:16is the way you recruit players, manage
48:17your assistant coaches, and conduct
48:20practice.
48:22And you pose this interesting question.
48:26What if you completely ignored your
48:27goals
48:28and you focused on your system?
48:31And I'd love to unpack this because I do
48:33think that this is where I got things
48:36wrong for so long. I was very focused on
48:40defining goals
48:41and I spent little to no time
48:44really looking at the systems that
48:47create progress toward those goals. Can
48:49you unpack this for us?
48:50>> I was like that too. I think in my
48:52nature is I'm naturally very
48:54goal-oriented and outcome-oriented. And
48:56you know, we all want better results,
48:57right?
48:58Um so I don't think goals are ever going
49:00to be like a zero in your life and
49:02you're never going to think about them.
49:03It's just so natural to focus on them.
49:05What I'm trying to encourage here is to
49:06focus on the other side of the equation,
49:08which is the daily habits that you are
49:10following. If I was going to put a
49:12little finer point on the language
49:13there, what do I mean by goal and
49:15system?
49:16>> Yes.
49:16>> Your goal is your desired outcome, the
49:18target, the thing you're shooting for.
49:21What is your system?
49:22It's the collection of daily habits that
49:24you follow.
49:25And if there is ever a gap between your
49:28goal and your system, if there's ever a
49:29gap between your desired outcome and
49:32your daily habits,
49:34your daily habits will always win.
49:36I mean, almost by definition, your
49:37current habits are perfectly designed to
49:40deliver your current results. Whatever
49:42habits you've been following for the
49:43last 6 months or a year or 2 years, it's
49:45carried you almost inevitably to the
49:47outcomes that you have right now. So
49:50where I've kind of come down on this
49:51after thinking about it for a little
49:52while is
49:54goals are good for clarity. They're good
49:55for setting a sense of direction, get
49:57everybody rowing the boat in the same
49:58same direction. They can be good for
49:59filtering. So if somebody comes to you
50:01with an opportunity and they say, hey,
50:02do you want to do this? You can run it
50:04through your list of goals and say,
50:06well, does this get me closer to what I
50:07want or not?
50:09Maybe it makes it easier to say yes or
50:10no to that.
50:11But the vast majority of your time
50:14should be spent focused on building a
50:16better system.
50:17Goals are good for people who care about
50:19winning once. Systems are best for
50:21people who care about winning
50:22repeatedly.
50:23>> Mhm.
50:23>> Now, if you really want to make progress
50:24and make it again and again, if you want
50:26to get high performance and keep the
50:28performance high, you need some set of
50:31systems, some collection of daily habits
50:32to keep you up there.
50:34The other interesting thing that I
50:35realized is that the winners and the
50:37losers often have the same goals.
50:40You know, if you have a job opening and
50:41100 people apply,
50:43presumably every candidate has the goal
50:45of getting the job. The goal is not the
50:47thing that determines the outcome. It's
50:49presentation skills in the interview,
50:50who they know at the company, education,
50:52experience, like all sorts of things,
50:54right? Or um, you know, at the Olympics,
50:57presumably every athlete who's competing
51:00has the goal of winning the gold medal.
51:02You know, the is not the thing that
51:03determines the outcome. Again, it's
51:05genetic ability, talent, coaching,
51:07strategy, how much sleep they got the
51:09night before, like all sorts of factors.
51:11And so if the winners and the losers
51:13have the same goals,
51:15the goal cannot be the thing that makes
51:17the difference in their performance. It
51:18has to be something else. And that
51:20something else is the system. It's their
51:21daily habits.
51:23>> So you've talked a lot about this word
51:25systems.
51:26I would love to have you just break down
51:29some for some of the habits that people
51:32tend to
51:35take on a lot. What about for saving
51:37money? What might be a system just to
51:38jog the person who's listening?
51:40>> So here's an interesting one that one of
51:42my readers uses. Saving money is an
51:45interesting and there's an interesting
51:46category of habits which are things that
51:48you basically don't do and then you need
51:51to feel good about it. Like saving money
51:52is basically when I don't spend is when
51:54I'm achieving this goal. And you know,
51:57it's like not playing video games or
51:58don't drink wine, like things like that
52:00are tricky to feel good about because
52:02you're just resisting doing something.
52:05So [snorts] I thought this was a clever
52:06solution. I have I have this one reader,
52:08he and his wife wanted to eat out less,
52:11spend less money eating out at
52:12restaurants and cook at home more. But
52:14again, if you just well, we're not going
52:16to go out to eat tonight, that doesn't
52:17really feel great. So what they came up
52:19with was they opened a separate savings
52:22account and they labeled it trip to
52:24Europe.
52:24And then anytime that they stayed home,
52:26they would move 20 or 50 bucks or
52:28whatever over that they were going to
52:29spend that night, they move that over to
52:31the account. And what they get in the
52:33moment is the feeling of
52:36oh, we're building toward this vacation
52:38that we want to go on.
52:40And then at the end of the year, they
52:41took the money and put it toward the
52:42trip.
52:43And so they found a way to take
52:44something that usually doesn't have much
52:46of a benefit and give it a positive
52:49association, a positive feeling. And so
52:51that was part of their system for saving
52:53money or for not eating out was well,
52:56first we're going to move the money over
52:58and then we're going to choose what
52:59recipe recipe are we making tonight and
53:01then we go into the kitchen and prep it
53:02and whatever. And so it's just a simple
53:04a couple of steps, but it makes it a lot
53:06more enjoyable.
53:07>> What about a system for eating
53:08healthier?
53:11>> Eating healthier is interesting and it's
53:12a tricky one. Um
53:14I think it provides a good example of
53:17people will say something that they
53:19think is simple, but it's actually not
53:21that simple. They think they're making
53:23it easy and simple, but they need to
53:24scale it down even more. So like let's
53:26say somebody says, all right, I'm just
53:28going to focus on one habit. I'm just
53:29going to try to eat healthy. Well, you
53:32know, what is involved in that, right?
53:33Like if you're if you're currently
53:35eating a lot of meals out or ordering a
53:36lot of meals, well, first you need to
53:38decide what you're going to make. You
53:39need a grocery shopping habit, so you
53:41got to get the stuff. You need some meal
53:44prep habits. Maybe you even need new
53:45skills. Like do you need knife skills or
53:47like learn how to do some stuff that
53:48maybe you didn't know how to do before.
53:50After you make the meal, you have a
53:51bunch of dishes that need to be cleaned.
53:53So now you need to develop like a
53:54cleaning habit of washing those. So
53:56there's actually like six or seven
53:57things that are all separate habits. So
54:00I would say you can try to scale this
54:02down and start easy on yourself. And
54:05maybe, you know, for like let's take
54:07doing the dishes for example, maybe for
54:09the first week you just eat off of paper
54:10plates. And no, it's not super
54:12sustainable and it's not the thing that
54:13you want to do forever, but you're
54:15trying to take one element out of the
54:16equation so that you make it easier for
54:18yourself to do it.
54:20Um another example that I thought was
54:21interesting, I talked to one woman who
54:23she took this idea of we talked about
54:25earlier of what would this look like if
54:26it was fun.
54:27>> Mm.
54:27>> So she wanted to start eating healthier
54:29and bring her her lunch into work each
54:31day, but she realized the making a salad
54:33didn't sound that fun to her.
54:35>> Yeah.
54:35>> And so she came up with this phrase that
54:37she called a party in a bowl.
54:39And so she would make a salad, but she
54:41would do like all kinds of wild things
54:43at the start. Like she would chop up
54:44Snickers bars and throw them in or she
54:46would like crumble potato chips on top
54:47or whatever. She just wanted it to feel
54:49like a party in a bowl. And she did that
54:51for the first like two weeks or month.
54:53And then after a month of bringing her
54:55lunch in, she was like, okay, now I'm
54:57actually making it every morning.
54:59Um then she was like, how can I make
55:00this healthier? Um how can I, you know,
55:02improve the quality of this? And so
55:04>> I love, by the way, the potato chips on
55:06the salad. I think that sounds
55:08fantastic. What a great idea. Little
55:10crunch, little salt.
55:12>> seems good. Um, but you know,
55:15how do you make it fun? How do you
55:17increase the odds that you master the
55:18art of showing up? That's kind of that's
55:20the like first hurdle to clear.
55:21>> Yeah, and what I also loved is that
55:23you're identifying for us the fact that
55:26we trip over ourselves because we make
55:29the results that we want either too big
55:32or too vague, that we underestimate the
55:35complexity of the amount of change we're
55:37asking ourselves to make.
55:38>> If you start with perfection as the bar,
55:40it becomes really hard to get started.
55:42>> How do you think or what have some of
55:44your readers said about the systems and
55:46habits related to cutting back on
55:48something like drinking or vaping or one
55:49of those things?
55:50>> let's talk a little bit about breaking
55:51bad habits. There's kind of there's if
55:53if you want to break a bad habit,
55:54>> Yes.
55:55>> there are three different things you
55:56could do. So first thing is you could
55:58eliminate it entirely. So cut it out
55:59cold turkey, right? Second way to break
56:02a bad habit is you could reduce it. So
56:04you don't necessarily stop it, you just
56:05reduce it to your desired degree. I
56:07would say a lot of people probably feel
56:08this way about their phones. It's not
56:10that I never want to use my phone. I
56:11just want to use it a little bit less or
56:13scroll a little bit less or whatever.
56:14>> Yes.
56:15>> Um, and then the third category is you
56:16could replace it. So you can eliminate,
56:18you can reduce, or you can replace.
56:20Those are really your three options if
56:21you want to break a bad habit. And if
56:23you replace it, then you're substituting
56:24a new habit in its place, um hopefully
56:27one that's more healthier and more
56:28productive. [snorts] Um, let me kind of
56:30answer these in reverse order, right? So
56:32replace it.
56:34Habits and we talked a little bit early
56:36on about some ways to define a habit.
56:38Here's another way to define it. A habit
56:40is a solution to a recurring problem in
56:43your environment. Right? So it's a
56:44solution to a recurring problem that you
56:46face. Let's say for example, you come
56:48home from work and it's 5:30 and you're
56:50feeling exhausted and tired from a long
56:52day, right? That is a recurring problem
56:55that is going to happen throughout the
56:56weeks and months that your brain has to
56:59figure out how to solve. And for one
57:01person, maybe they solve it by scrolling
57:03on Instagram for 30 minutes.
57:04>> Mm.
57:04>> For another person, the way that they
57:06solve it is maybe they smoke a
57:07cigarette. For a third person, maybe the
57:09way they solve it is they go for a run.
57:11And you can see that some of these
57:13solutions are healthier than others, but
57:15they're all solving the same root
57:16problem, which is I feel stressed and
57:18exhausted and tired after a long day and
57:20I want to find a way to reset and kind
57:21of change my energy.
57:23[snorts] Um and
57:25early in your life, I think particularly
57:27in your twenties, you may have this
57:29realization where the solutions that you
57:31have to the problems that you face are
57:33kind of things that you inherited or you
57:35picked up from your parents. Uh you
57:37know, what are the odds that the first
57:40way that you learned to solve this
57:41problem is the best way? Uh
57:43mathematically speaking, it's very
57:45unlikely that the way that your current
57:48solutions to the problems that you face
57:49are the best solutions.
57:50>> So let me just give you an example. So
57:51if you uh grew up in a household where
57:54you saw mom or dad come home from a long
57:56day at work and they poured themselves a
57:57glass of wine as a way to unwind, turn
58:00off their brain, step into the evening,
58:03if you inherited that habit as the way
58:07you solved the problem of I've had a
58:09long day at work, I'm totally stressed,
58:11I want a quick way to de-stress and the
58:13habit is pour a glass of wine or pour a
58:15drink,
58:16that's an example of the type of thing
58:19you're talking about.
58:20>> Yeah, and I think the first step is not
58:21to judge yourself for it or to feel
58:23guilty about it. You don't You don't
58:24need to feel bad about it. It's just
58:25It's almost like sometimes I try to look
58:27at my habits almost like I'm going to
58:29the zoo. You know how you like go and
58:30look at an animal you're like, oh, how
58:31interesting that they would do that, you
58:33know, like oh oh, isn't that silly that
58:35they behave in that way? Like you kind
58:36of look at yourself with that lens and
58:38you're like, oh, okay, interesting that
58:39I'm doing this. Um
58:41>> [snorts]
58:41>> and you just want to see things clearly.
58:43And then once you see how you 're
58:45actually behaving, well then there are
58:46adjustments that you can make and I
58:47think at that point you realize, all
58:49right, it's not my fault necessarily
58:51that I'm doing these things or that I
58:53learned this way to do it, [snorts] but
58:55now it is my responsibility to make the
58:57change.
58:58The next level is you say, all right,
59:00I'm going to try to reduce the amount of
59:02time that I do this. One way that I try
59:05to practice this, so I have a home
59:06office and I have this little rule where
59:08I try to keep my phone in another room
59:10until lunch each day.
59:12Um usually it ends up being like 9 to
59:1411, 9 to noon, something like that. And
59:15I can't do it all the time, but I can do
59:17it maybe 70% of the time. And whenever I
59:20do it, I think it's interesting cuz it's
59:22like the phone is just down the hallway.
59:24It's only 30 seconds away, but I never
59:26go get it. And so I'm like, did I want
59:29it or not? You know, on the one hand, I
59:31wanted it so bad that when it was next
59:33to me, I would check it every 3 minutes.
59:35And on the other hand, I never wanted it
59:36badly enough that I would be willing to
59:38work 30 seconds and go down the hall and
59:40get it. And a lot of your habits are
59:41like that. They will curtail themselves
59:44to the desired degree if you just
59:46introduce a little bit of distance or a
59:47little bit of friction. The more that um
59:50you increase friction between you and
59:52the behavior, the more likely it is to
59:54reduce itself.
59:55>> Uh-huh.
59:56>> So there are a lot of environmental
59:57changes that could potentially work
59:58there.
59:59>> Talk to us about the environment and the
1:00:03role that environment plays in terms of
1:00:07sticking to habits.
1:00:08>> There's a chapter in Atomic Habits
1:00:09that's called The Secret to
1:00:11Self-Control.
1:00:12>> Uh-huh.
1:00:12>> And there's a story that many of us tell
1:00:14ourselves, which is, oh, you know, if I
1:00:16was just more disciplined, if I just had
1:00:17more self-control, then I would be able
1:00:19to do these things.
1:00:20>> Uh-huh.
1:00:21>> But the big takeaway from the research
1:00:22in that chapter, the surprising insight
1:00:24is that
1:00:26when you look at people who exhibit high
1:00:28levels of self-control, the common
1:00:31pattern across them is not that they
1:00:33have higher discipline than the average
1:00:34person. The common pattern is that they
1:00:36are in situations where they're
1:00:37attempted less frequently.
1:00:39>> Tempted, tempted less frequently. Okay.
1:00:49>> So the to be more disciplined. You don't
1:00:52need to wish that you were a person with
1:00:53more willpower. You need to take a
1:00:55little bit of time to design an
1:00:57environment where you're not tempted as
1:00:58frequently. So that could mean simple
1:01:00things like not having chips in the
1:01:02house or not having cigarettes in the
1:01:03house or things like that. Um, it could
1:01:05mean more complicated things like
1:01:07looking at your relationships and
1:01:08saying, who are the people that have the
1:01:10behaviors that I want to have? You know,
1:01:11what what are the common habits of my
1:01:13friend group or my peer group? And
1:01:15that's not necessarily saying I never
1:01:16see these people again, but maybe I only
1:01:18see them in pockets or, you know, or in
1:01:20certain situations. And then other
1:01:21people I'm trying to expose myself to
1:01:23more and hang out with more. And um so
1:01:27those are all ways that you can start to
1:01:29think about where the temptations in my
1:01:31life or where am I having to
1:01:34Where do I need to go against the grain
1:01:36of the situation to have the habits that
1:01:38I want to have and where am I working
1:01:39with the gradient of the situation?
1:01:42>> And working with because it's actually
1:01:44taking me in the direction of the kind
1:01:46of person I want to become.
1:01:48And working against is you recognize
1:01:51you're in an environment that is taking
1:01:53you away from the kind of person you
1:01:55want to become. Let's stay for a second
1:01:57on
1:01:59people. What are the systems or changes
1:02:02or ways that
1:02:03that you think about being surrounded by
1:02:07people
1:02:08>> Mhm.
1:02:09>> that aren't supporting who you want to
1:02:11become.
1:02:12>> It's a huge driver of our habits. There
1:02:14there's a chapter in Atomic Habits um
1:02:16about the influence of friends and
1:02:17family on our behaviors. And I think if
1:02:20I could write it again, I would even
1:02:21expand it because it's it's even bigger
1:02:23than I think I realized. So humans are
1:02:26very social creatures. We we all have a
1:02:28deep desire to bond and connect to to be
1:02:32part of something. And if people have to
1:02:34choose between, you know, I have habits
1:02:38that I don't really love, but I fit in.
1:02:40I belong. I'm part of something. I'm
1:02:42supported. Or I have the habits that I
1:02:45want to have, but I'm cast out, I'm
1:02:47ostracized, I'm criticized.
1:02:50A lot of the time the desire to belong
1:02:52will overpower the desire to improve.
1:02:55And so as best as possible, you need to
1:02:56get those two things aligned. Um
1:02:59and I think the way to do it is you want
1:03:02to join groups where your desired
1:03:04behavior is the normal behavior.
1:03:06Because if your desired behavior is
1:03:08normal, as you make friendships and
1:03:10build relationships in that group,
1:03:11you're going to soak up so many big and
1:03:14little habits from the people that are
1:03:16part of that group.
1:03:17We all belong to multiple groups or
1:03:20multiple tribes. Some of them are large,
1:03:22like what it means to be American or
1:03:23what it means to be French. Some of them
1:03:25are small, like what it means to be a
1:03:26neighbor on your street or a member of
1:03:28the local CrossFit gym or a volunteer at
1:03:30the elementary school. But all of those
1:03:32groups, large and small, have a set of
1:03:35expectations for how you act. You know,
1:03:37like take the neighbor on the street
1:03:38example. If I walk outside and look at
1:03:40my neighbor's house and they're mowing
1:03:41the lawn, I might think, oh, I need to
1:03:43cut the grass too. And you might stick
1:03:45to that habit for 5 years or 10 years,
1:03:47however long you live in the house. Like
1:03:49we wish we had that level of consistency
1:03:51with our other habits. And why do you do
1:03:54it?
1:03:55Partially you do it because it feels
1:03:56good to have a clean lawn, but mostly
1:03:58you do it because you don't want to be
1:03:59the sloppy one who's like ruining how
1:04:01the neighborhood looks. So you want to
1:04:03join groups where your desired habits
1:04:06align with the expectations of the group
1:04:08so that you don't have to run against
1:04:09that friction. One [snorts] of the best
1:04:11things that I ever did in my
1:04:12entrepreneurial career, so I have no
1:04:14authors in my family, no entrepreneurs
1:04:15in my family,
1:04:16but I um looked around and I said, who
1:04:20are some other people that are doing the
1:04:21thing that I want to do? You know,
1:04:23they're like 2 or 3 years ahead of me.
1:04:24That's this is like maybe 10 years ago.
1:04:26And I started hosting these retreats
1:04:28where I would get other authors
1:04:29together, 6 or 8 people, and I say,
1:04:31let's just split the cost of an Airbnb,
1:04:33get together for like 2 days and we'll
1:04:34talk about how to build an audience and
1:04:36how to write a book and how to launch a
1:04:37book. Um so anyway, the point being
1:04:41that requires a little bit of courage,
1:04:42you know, like I I reached out to
1:04:44people. I was always worried that I was
1:04:45going to look like a dummy and you know,
1:04:47be like, you want to go hang out for 2
1:04:48days and everybody would be like, no,
1:04:49you know, but um but everybody says yes
1:04:52because they're waiting for the same
1:04:54thing, which is people want like-minded
1:04:56people to get together. They're waiting
1:04:57for somebody to gather people together.
1:04:59So um sometimes the spaces are ready for
1:05:02you, sometimes it requires a little bit
1:05:03of courage to create it, but the outcome
1:05:05is the same, which is you're trying to
1:05:06put yourself in a room with people who
1:05:08have your desired behaviors.
1:05:10>> James, what are the four stages of
1:05:12building habits?
1:05:13>> Well, all habits go through this kind of
1:05:15four-step loop here. I can draw it out.
1:05:17>> Great.
1:05:18So he's grabbing a quick whiteboard if
1:05:19you're listening.
1:05:20>> So
1:05:20>> have these four stages. Almost like a
1:05:22quadrant, but you you start and the
1:05:25beginning of it is there's some kind of
1:05:26cue,
1:05:27okay? So, I'll just put a C there for
1:05:29cue. Right? So, you have the cue and
1:05:31that leads to a craving which then
1:05:33drives a response and then ultimately
1:05:36you get a reward. And so you kind of go
1:05:38around the loop like this. Right?
1:05:40>> cue, craving, response, reward. Cue,
1:05:42craving, response, reward. And it's true
1:05:44for little things like
1:05:46>> let's [snorts] say that you um walk into
1:05:48a room, the room is dark, and you the
1:05:51cue is, oh, the room's dark, I want to
1:05:52be able to see. The craving is, I want
1:05:55to be able to see. The response is, I
1:05:57flip the light switch and then the
1:05:58reward is, oh, now the lights are on I
1:06:00can see. Um but it's true for other
1:06:01stuff too. Like the cue might be um
1:06:04you're driving down the road and you
1:06:06hear an ambulance come up from behind
1:06:07you. The siren is an auditory cue.
1:06:09>> Okay.
1:06:09>> Or your phone buzzes in your pocket.
1:06:11That's a physical cue that starts the
1:06:13habit of checking your phone. Or um you
1:06:16see a plate of cookies on the counter in
1:06:17the kitchen. That's a visual cue that
1:06:19starts the habit of eating a cookie. So,
1:06:20you have the cue that leads to the
1:06:22craving.
1:06:23Um you hear the the siren uh from the
1:06:26ambulance. Oh, now I need to pull to the
1:06:27side of the road or
1:06:28>> the craving is just the impulse to do
1:06:30something.
1:06:30>> desire, the the desire to do something.
1:06:33So, cue, craving, response, reward. Um
1:06:37>> And you know what's interesting is now
1:06:38I'm understanding as you're explaining a
1:06:39habit
1:06:40is that you're not even really thinking
1:06:42about those things. They're just all
1:06:44kind of sandwiched together in that loop
1:06:46you just drew.
1:06:47>> It can happen almost instantaneously
1:06:49like all inside of a whole second. You
1:06:51know like it's but it it it's very rapid
1:06:53and it's um once a habit is established
1:06:55it's almost entirely non-conscious.
1:06:57>> How does that connect to the four laws
1:07:00that you created around behavior change?
1:07:02>> So, we have this scientific backbone,
1:07:04these four stages, cue, craving,
1:07:05response, reward, and we know that our
1:07:08behaviors are going through that cycle
1:07:09each day. And what I care about is how
1:07:12do I operationalize that? How do I
1:07:13translate this into something actionable
1:07:15for daily life and work? And so that's
1:07:17why I came up with what I call the four
1:07:19laws of behavior change.
1:07:20>> All right. Well, let's go into the four
1:07:21laws.
1:07:22>> So, the first law is
1:07:23>> make it obvious. You want the cues of
1:07:25your habits to be obvious, available,
1:07:28visible, easy to see. The easier it is
1:07:30for a habit to be noticed and for it to
1:07:32get your attention, the more likely you
1:07:34are to act on it.
1:07:35The second law is to make it attractive.
1:07:38So, this comes back to that question we
1:07:39asked earlier about what would this look
1:07:41like if it was fun?
1:07:42>> Yeah.
1:07:42>> The more fun, the more engaging, the
1:07:45more um
1:07:46motivating and or enticing a habit is,
1:07:49the more likely you are to follow
1:07:50through on it, right? So, make it
1:07:51attractive.
1:07:53The third law is to make it easy. The
1:07:55easier, more convenient, frictionless,
1:07:58simple a habit is, the more likely it is
1:08:00to be performed.
1:08:02And the fourth and final law is to make
1:08:03it satisfying. So, the more satisfying
1:08:05or enjoyable a habit is, the more
1:08:07rewarding or pleasurable it is, the more
1:08:09likely you are to feel compelled to do
1:08:10it.
1:08:11The first three laws, make it obvious,
1:08:13make it attractive, make it easy. Those
1:08:16three are about priming you to get
1:08:18started. They're about making it easy to
1:08:19get into the habit this time.
1:08:22The fourth law, make it satisfying, that
1:08:24like closes the feedback loop. The
1:08:27behavior's already happened at that
1:08:28point, but the reward is important
1:08:30because it helps you feel good. And that
1:08:32gets you to show up again the next time.
1:08:34Make it obvious, make it attractive,
1:08:36make it easy, make it satisfying.
1:08:38If you're trying to build a new habit,
1:08:40if you're sitting there and you're
1:08:41thinking, you know, I have
1:08:43this habit that I want to do, but I keep
1:08:44procrastinating on it.
1:08:45>> Let's take Let's take exercising since
1:08:47that's the number one thing people want
1:08:49to do.
1:08:50>> I wish I could get to the gym, but I
1:08:52just haven't been doing that. You can
1:08:53just go through these four laws and ask
1:08:55yourself, how can I make the habit more
1:08:57obvious? How can I make it more
1:08:59attractive? How can I make it easier?
1:09:01How can I make it more satisfying? And
1:09:03the answers to those four questions will
1:09:05reveal different steps that you can
1:09:07take. They're naturally going to
1:09:08generate answers for things that you
1:09:10could do. They're kind of like levers,
1:09:12and when the levers are in the right
1:09:13positions, building habits is easier,
1:09:16and when they're in the wrong positions,
1:09:17building habits is harder.
1:09:19>> Um I want to see if this example maps to
1:09:24those four steps and related to making
1:09:27exercise stick.
1:09:28So, making it obvious, one of the things
1:09:31that I did that made a difference is
1:09:34laying my clothes out the night before
1:09:36so that when I wake up in the morning I
1:09:39see the clothes and that's the cue.
1:09:41>> Yep.
1:09:42>> Uh-oh, I said I would exercise today. I
1:09:45make it attractive by saying I'm going
1:09:48to go somewhere outside my house like to
1:09:51a yoga studio or something, right?
1:09:52>> it's what you did earlier. Didn't you
1:09:54say you didn't like working out on your
1:09:56own but you do like a class?
1:09:57>> Yes.
1:09:58>> it's it's choosing a version of that
1:10:00habit that is fun and attractive to you.
1:10:02A class is more attractive.
1:10:03>> the third one is I picked it the night
1:10:05before.
1:10:06So now it's easy to know. I don't have
1:10:08to stop and think. I don't have to look
1:10:10at a schedule. I don't have to fit it in
1:10:12because I made it easy because I picked
1:10:13it the night before. And satisfying,
1:10:16there's a coffee shop next door that
1:10:17makes a great iced latte.
1:10:19And I
1:10:22have it when I'm done.
1:10:23>> when that's your reward for when you get
1:10:24done.
1:10:25>> Yes.
1:10:25>> So yeah, I think it definitely maps and
1:10:28you can imagine lots of versions of
1:10:29this. I do think the obvious piece is
1:10:31often about knowing exactly when you're
1:10:33going to go or setting your clothes out
1:10:35the night before or having, you know,
1:10:36there's some kind of obvious element in
1:10:38your environment there. The attractive
1:10:40piece is usually choosing a version of
1:10:42exercise that you're really excited
1:10:43about. The easy piece I think can often
1:10:45be about scaling it down rather than
1:10:47>> it 10 minute or make it 10 push-ups
1:10:49instead of the other one.
1:10:50>> Exactly. Rather than an hour it can be
1:10:51for 10 minutes or whatever. It's, you
1:10:52know, scaling down the the scope of it.
1:10:55And if you can do more, great. Go ahead
1:10:56and do more. But you're what you
1:10:58consider a success is the smaller
1:11:00version. Um and then the reward in the
1:11:03beginning a lot of the time I think it
1:11:05looks like what you just described,
1:11:06which is is the latte or it's the, you
1:11:08know, whatever the thing is that that
1:11:10you want.
1:11:10>> it as I'm driving to the yoga studio.
1:11:13I'm not thinking about getting on the
1:11:14mat. I'm like, ooh, I get a latte after
1:11:15this.
1:11:16>> which is great. Um
1:11:18in the long run, sometimes it takes a
1:11:19decade or more,
1:11:21it can become the reinforcement of the
1:11:22identity that you want to have. So for
1:11:25me, I I work out now
1:11:28because I I like the results everybody
1:11:30else wants, right? Like you want to look
1:11:32good and stay fit and be able to move
1:11:33when you're 70 and, you know, all that
1:11:34stuff.
1:11:36But
1:11:37I also do it because I like who I am
1:11:40when I'm doing it.
1:11:41>> Mm.
1:11:41>> Steven Pressfield has this concept where
1:11:43he says
1:11:44uh he's talking about writing.
1:11:46But he says in the beginning you start
1:11:47creating and you feel kind of like an
1:11:49imposter. You sit down to write. It's
1:11:51kind of hard. It's difficult. You don't
1:11:52really feel like you fit. Um
1:11:55[snorts] but a wolf has its territory.
1:11:58And the way that it becomes its
1:11:59territory is by walking it, by showing
1:12:01up every day, by being there. And it's
1:12:03not its territory the first day, but
1:12:05eventually after it's been there for a
1:12:06while, it starts to feel like home. And
1:12:08all of your habits are kind of like
1:12:09that, too. You know, the first day you
1:12:11go to the gym, you feel kind of stupid
1:12:13and foolish. You're like, are people,
1:12:14you know, looking at me? Am I doing this
1:12:15the wrong way? You feel out of place.
1:12:18You go for 6 months or a year. You start
1:12:20to get a little bit more comfortable.
1:12:21Maybe it still doesn't feel like home
1:12:23yet. Turn around 2 or 3 or 5 years later
1:12:26and you're like, this is just part of
1:12:27what I do. This is my territory now. And
1:12:30the only way you develop that level of
1:12:31comfort is by being willing to go
1:12:34through a little bit of discomfort early
1:12:36on. You know, like sometimes I try to
1:12:38remind myself,
1:12:40am I willing to look foolish for 5
1:12:42minutes? Or am I willing to be
1:12:43uncomfortable for 5 minutes? That's
1:12:45really all you're talking about. My So I
1:12:48I've been working with a trainer
1:12:49recently, and he told me this story. He
1:12:51was teaching a class in the morning, and
1:12:53it was a bad weather day. There was It
1:12:55was just rainy and really gross. It was
1:12:56kind of cold and just gray. It was just
1:12:58kind of nasty.
1:12:59And he was supposed to have eight people
1:13:01in his class, and he showed up and only
1:13:03two were there.
1:13:05And
1:13:06I We were talking about I I think that's
1:13:07kind of interesting, you know, because
1:13:09the workout's indoors, right? The
1:13:11workout Once you get to the gym, the
1:13:12workout's the same as it always is. Um
1:13:14it's no different as as when it's sunny
1:13:16and the sky is blue. Um
1:13:17>> true.
1:13:18>> but what you really notice there is just
1:13:21how little bit of an edge you need to
1:13:24gain an advantage um or to to have a
1:13:26different outcome than most people.
1:13:28Six of those eight people didn't show
1:13:30up, not because of the workout. The
1:13:32workout's the same as always. It's
1:13:33because they didn't want to be
1:13:34uncomfortable for like five or ten
1:13:36minutes, getting ready, getting through
1:13:37the rain, getting into the car. It was
1:13:39just kind of gross enough that it let
1:13:41them ignore it.
1:13:42>> Yeah.
1:13:42>> Um and so
1:13:45in a lot of ways
1:13:47what this all boils down to is getting
1:13:49started. It's being Are you willing to
1:13:52get started? Are you willing to be
1:13:53uncomfortable for three minutes?
1:13:56And if you can get over that hump, then
1:13:58the rest of it kind of cascades
1:13:59naturally.
1:14:00>> You write about the two-minute rule.
1:14:02What is that?
1:14:03>> It's a really easy way to um force
1:14:06yourself to get started. I hope that you
1:14:08find all the ideas interesting and
1:14:09useful that we talk about today, but if
1:14:11you can only remember one thing, the
1:14:13two-minute rule is a good thing to
1:14:13remember. And I say that because it can
1:14:16be applied to pretty much any habit.
1:14:18So you take whatever habit you're trying
1:14:20to build and you scale it down to
1:14:22something that takes two minutes or less
1:14:24to do.
1:14:24>> Oh.
1:14:25>> So
1:14:27>> Meditation.
1:14:28>> Yeah, meditate um meditate for 20
1:14:30minutes because becomes meditate for one
1:14:32minute. Uh read 30 books a year becomes
1:14:34read one page. Do yoga four days a week
1:14:37becomes take out my yoga mat.
1:14:39And sometimes when I tell people this,
1:14:41they resist it a little bit.
1:14:42They're like, okay, buddy. You know, I
1:14:45know the real goal isn't just to take my
1:14:46yoga mat out. I know I'm actually trying
1:14:47to do the workout, you know? So you're
1:14:49like, okay, if I know it's a trick and
1:14:51why would I fall for it basically?
1:14:53But
1:14:54there's this great quote from Ed
1:14:55Latimore where he says the heaviest
1:14:57weight at the gym is the front door.
1:14:59And man, there are a lot of things in
1:15:01life that are like that, you know? The
1:15:03hardest action is the first movement.
1:15:04The most difficult step is the first
1:15:06one. And once getting when you're in the
1:15:08work, once you've already started, it's
1:15:10often easier to keep going. Um it's
1:15:13starting the work that is the hard part.
1:15:14All the friction's at the beginning.
1:15:15There there's this concept in physics,
1:15:17coefficient of friction. The friction is
1:15:19highest when you're not moving. It's
1:15:21once you're moving that things start to
1:15:23go a little bit easier. Momentum works
1:15:25in both ways, you know? Like
1:15:27if you sit on the couch and you ruminate
1:15:29on, you know, how things aren't going
1:15:30well in your life, you you kind of
1:15:31lethargic, like that's easy to be low
1:15:33energy and for things to not go well
1:15:34right then. But you start moving a
1:15:36little bit, even if it's just stretch on
1:15:37the floor for five minutes, now you
1:15:39start to move forward and things go, you
1:15:40know, go a little bit faster.
1:15:42>> You know, speaking of friction, there's
1:15:44a concept that
1:15:46is floating around called habit
1:15:48stacking. What is that?
1:15:51>> Habit stacking, I think habit stacking
1:15:52is a great um approach for building
1:15:55habits. It's a concept that comes from
1:15:57BJ Fogg. He's a professor at Stanford
1:15:59and he had a great insight, which is
1:16:03[snorts]
1:16:04habits tend to be easier to build or
1:16:06stick to if they're tied to a behavior
1:16:09that you're already doing. So we all
1:16:12have habits that we already do, okay?
1:16:14Like maybe you already make a cup of
1:16:16coffee every morning
1:16:17>> Yep.
1:16:18>> and your new habit that you want to
1:16:19build is you want to start meditating.
1:16:21So you can stack that new habit on top
1:16:23of the old one. So your habit stack
1:16:25could be something like
1:16:27after I make my morning cup of coffee, I
1:16:30will meditate for 60 seconds.
1:16:32And then, you know, you can start to
1:16:33chain this together. You could like
1:16:34create multiple. So you could say after
1:16:35I make my cup of coffee, I will meditate
1:16:37for 60 seconds. After I meditate for 60
1:16:40seconds, I will write my to-do list for
1:16:41the day. After I write my to-do list for
1:16:43the day, I will prioritize them and
1:16:45start working on the first one or
1:16:47whatever. And now you've got a little
1:16:48stack, a little package of behaviors
1:16:49that happens the same way every time and
1:16:51you do it each morning.
1:16:53And
1:16:54from talking with a lot of readers,
1:16:55people like to use these at certain
1:16:57moments throughout the day. They people
1:16:58like habit stacks in the morning. I have
1:17:00a lot of readers who they'll come up
1:17:02with one for what they do when they get
1:17:03into the office. They'll be like, I go
1:17:05into the office, I hang up my jacket, I
1:17:07set my purse on the desk, I take my
1:17:09water bottle and I fill it up, and then
1:17:10I sit down and I answer the first email.
1:17:12And I always do it in the same order and
1:17:13that like helps me get into the day and
1:17:15I just know exactly what I'm going to do
1:17:16when I get there.
1:17:18Sometimes you'll see people have one
1:17:19like a power down routine at the end of
1:17:21the day to kind of help them, you know,
1:17:24wrap the day up and get ready for bed
1:17:25and whatever. So you can use it
1:17:27anywhere.
1:17:28I have some readers who have come up
1:17:29with very creative ones. I had one guy
1:17:31who was he was such a bro and really
1:17:33liked going to the gym and um he was not
1:17:36managing his finances well. And so his
1:17:38new habit stack was, whenever I drink a
1:17:41protein shake, I will check my finances.
1:17:43Um and it just it happened frequently
1:17:45enough that it would force him to check
1:17:47in on his budget and stay more on top of
1:17:49it. Um so you can do you can do strange
1:17:51ones like that. You have to be
1:17:54willing to experiment.
1:17:55>> Mm.
1:17:56>> Um you know, I Atomic Habits I I've
1:17:58tried to lay everything out that I can.
1:18:00Like I wanted it I I don't know whether
1:18:02I reached or not, but my objective when
1:18:03I was writing was I want to write the
1:18:05single best book that's ever been
1:18:06written about habits. But even so, even
1:18:09if in some magical world I achieved that
1:18:11outcome, you as an individual still have
1:18:13to be willing to experiment because what
1:18:15matters is does it work for your life,
1:18:17you know? And so you got to maybe you
1:18:18need to rearrange the habit stack. Maybe
1:18:20you need to change when you're inserting
1:18:22things. You know, for one person
1:18:24putting the uh meditating right after a
1:18:26cup of coffee makes a lot of sense. If
1:18:29you have three toddlers and you're
1:18:30trying to get pants on your
1:18:31four-year-old, that's not a good time to
1:18:33meditate, you know? So you need to find
1:18:35the right time of day to insert um your
1:18:38habits and behaviors. And that requires
1:18:40a little bit of experimentation.
1:18:41>> So for somebody who has a a goal that's
1:18:44really big,
1:18:45whether it's I want to write uh a novel,
1:18:48I want to start a business, I want to
1:18:50take on a big project and they're clear
1:18:53about that,
1:18:54what would you recommend
1:18:56is the one habit to build first
1:19:00since that's such a big
1:19:03goal out there?
1:19:04>> Interestingly, I would so I'd say
1:19:06there's probably two things to focus on
1:19:07first. The first is you probably need a
1:19:09habit of reflection and review.
1:19:12>> What does that mean?
1:19:12>> Well,
1:19:14what are the odds that if you keep your
1:19:17head down and you work really hard
1:19:19that you're going to be working on the
1:19:20the highest and best thing? It's just so
1:19:23unlikely that out of all the things that
1:19:24you could be doing that you're working
1:19:26on the best thing right now. And so it
1:19:28it's this interesting tension because on
1:19:30the one hand, having a great work ethic
1:19:32and working hard is really valuable in
1:19:34life. And um it does pay off in some
1:19:37sense. Like you can't get results
1:19:38without working on things.
1:19:40[snorts] But
1:19:41it can also become a crutch where if you
1:19:44like for myself, a lot of the time, I
1:19:46know for many years like if I had a
1:19:47problem, my solution was I'll just work
1:19:48my way out of it. And
1:19:51that works for a little while, but at
1:19:52some point it breaks. You know, like you
1:19:53break yourself down. And then also you
1:19:56can only work so much. Like you maybe if
1:19:58you really grinded, you could work 10%
1:20:00harder than you are right now. But you
1:20:02can't work 100% harder or like 100x
1:20:04harder. It's not possible. Um but you
1:20:07could work on something else that gets
1:20:09you 100x the result if you're working on
1:20:11the right thing. Um and so for any
1:20:14project, you know, this hypothetical
1:20:15question that you asked is what if I
1:20:17have this big goal? I have a business I
1:20:18want to launch. I have you know an
1:20:20initiative I want to start. I have you
1:20:21know whatever. Um
1:20:24there's going to be many ways to do it.
1:20:26And you need to have at least some time
1:20:28to sit and think each week and come back
1:20:30to saying are we doing this the right
1:20:32way? You know, if we I think if you if
1:20:34you have two things in life, if you have
1:20:37a bias toward action and you really move
1:20:39fast and you continually revisit this
1:20:42question of what are we really trying to
1:20:44do here and is this the best way to do
1:20:45it? If you can do those two things and
1:20:47you just keep doing them on repeat, you
1:20:49can really get a lot done in life. But
1:20:51but you need both. Um and so that that's
1:20:53the second thing that I was going to
1:20:54mention is this bias toward actions.
1:20:56Getting started. It's finding some small
1:20:58way to move now. Um
1:21:00my little saying that I try to remind
1:21:03myself of is don't rush but don't wait.
1:21:06You know, I find that if I am in the
1:21:08mix, if I'm taking action, if I'm
1:21:10working on things, then that's great. I
1:21:12need to be patient. I need to let the
1:21:13results accumulate. But if I'm not
1:21:15actually taking action, I'm not being
1:21:18patient. I'm just waiting.
1:21:19And nothing's going to happen in that
1:21:21case. So
1:21:23both
1:21:24thinking big picture, what are we really
1:21:26trying to do here and is this the best
1:21:28way to accomplish it? And then having a
1:21:30bias toward action and moving fast.
1:21:32Those two things work really well
1:21:33together.
1:21:33>> Amazing advice.
1:21:35You know, one of the things you said at
1:21:37the very beginning is that the secret to
1:21:39winning is knowing how to lose.
1:21:41What do you do and how do you pick
1:21:43yourself back up if you've had a little
1:21:45bit of a good streak?
1:21:47And then you don't go to the gym or you
1:21:49don't write or you start to drink again
1:21:53like those like how do you start the
1:21:55engine up again and what's the mistake
1:21:57you see people making?
1:21:59>> I try to keep this little mantra in
1:22:00mind, which is never miss twice.
1:22:03And so, you know, maybe I show up and I,
1:22:06you know, do the right thing. I've been
1:22:07writing for six days in a row and then
1:22:09the seventh day I miss. Well, you know,
1:22:11I wish I hadn't missed, but that's okay.
1:22:13Let me pour all my energy into getting
1:22:15back on track the next day.
1:22:17And what you realize is that at the end
1:22:19of the year those mistakes are just like
1:22:21a little blip on the radar, but that's
1:22:23only true if you never miss twice. It's
1:22:24only true if you get back on track
1:22:25quickly. And I think you see this in
1:22:28many domains, which is the top
1:22:30performers have this interesting
1:22:32quality. They're all human. They all
1:22:34make mistakes like everybody else, but
1:22:36the thing that they share is they tend
1:22:38to get back on track quickly.
1:22:40And [snorts] if the reclaiming of a
1:22:42habit is fast, the breaking of it
1:22:44doesn't matter that much, but it's it's
1:22:46all about getting back on track that
1:22:47matters. So it's again, it's this
1:22:49concept of bouncing back from a loss
1:22:51that um that is really critical.
1:22:53>> James Clear, what are your parting
1:22:54words?
1:22:55>> No matter what the habit is that you're
1:22:56trying to build, it's easy to talk
1:22:58yourself out of it because you know that
1:23:00the results aren't going to be good
1:23:01right away, but like your favorite
1:23:05athlete's first workout was just as bad
1:23:07as yours. You know, your favorite chef's
1:23:09first meal was just as bad as yours.
1:23:11Your favorite writer's first sentence
1:23:13was just as bad as yours. You need to
1:23:14keep going. You need to do the early low
1:23:18stakes stuff to prepare for the high
1:23:21stakes stuff, to to build the capacity
1:23:23and the ability to do the other things.
1:23:25And so don't overlook the small moments
1:23:28that you have each day. You every day
1:23:30has an opportunity built into it. You
1:23:32know, whatever whatever age you are
1:23:35right now, your future self would love
1:23:37to be in. When you're 70, you would give
1:23:40anything to go back and be 60 again and
1:23:42have the opportunity of those next 10
1:23:44years. And you should use that as best
1:23:46as you can. And whether that's a small
1:23:48moment like a little dance recital or
1:23:50some stupid little speech that you're
1:23:52going to give to your friends or
1:23:53whatever it is, to do it well. You know,
1:23:56whatever thing that you have in front of
1:23:57you, try to do it well. If you do it
1:24:00well, if you take advantage of the
1:24:01moment that you have, you earn the right
1:24:04to do more things.
1:24:06You proved to yourself that you have
1:24:09high standards and that you take
1:24:11advantage of the opportunities that are
1:24:12in front of you. And you put yourself in
1:24:14a better position to gain more
1:24:16opportunities. We all have varying
1:24:17degrees of luck or circumstances or
1:24:20misfortune or whatever that come to us
1:24:21in life.
1:24:22A lot of things that we ask for and a
1:24:23lot of things that we don't ask for, but
1:24:25all you can do is try to use the moments
1:24:27that you have to the best of your
1:24:28ability. And the better you do that, the
1:24:30better positioned you are to not only
1:24:32build good habits, but have a good life.
1:24:34>> James Clear,
1:24:37I I don't even have words. I am so proud
1:24:40of you. I am so grateful for the work
1:24:43that you do.
1:24:44>> Thank you so much, Mel. I appreciate it.
1:24:45It's great to have you as a fan and as a
1:24:46supporter of the work and yeah, I hope
1:24:48the audience loves it too.
1:24:49>> I'm sure they will. And I also want to
1:24:51thank you for finding time and making
1:24:53time to listen to this episode in
1:24:57particular and to share it with people
1:24:59that you care about.
1:25:00The amount of takeaways, the amount of
1:25:04just advice and tools that James just
1:25:06gave you,
1:25:08I want you to ask that question, who do
1:25:09I want to become? And then I want you to
1:25:11follow every single thing he told you
1:25:14because it will work. I'm going to keep
1:25:16listening to this. I'm going to share
1:25:18this with all three of my adult kids and
1:25:20our entire team. This is one of the
1:25:23best episodes we've ever done. So I'm
1:25:25absolutely thrilled that you're here.
1:25:26And in case no one else tells you, I
1:25:27wanted to be sure to tell you as your
1:25:29friend that I love you and I believe in
1:25:31you and I believe in your ability to
1:25:32create a better life because James Clear
1:25:35just gave you the road map for how you
1:25:37[laughter] do it. So go do it and I'll
1:25:40be waiting to welcome you into the very
1:25:42next episode the moment you hit play.
1:25:43I'll see you there. And thank you for
1:25:46watching all the to the end here on
1:25:48YouTube. I love that. I love that. And
1:25:51thank you, by the way, for hitting
1:25:52[music] subscribe. If it's lit up, it
1:25:54means you're not subscribed. Just take a
1:25:56second, hit that. It's free. It's a way
1:25:58that you can say, hey, thanks, Mel.
1:26:00Thanks for showing up here and doing
1:26:02your best to support me in creating a
1:26:03better life. And that way, by the way,
1:26:05if you're a subscriber, you're not going
1:26:06to miss a thing. Okay, we just dug into
1:26:09habits. So you're probably thinking,
1:26:10Mel, what should I watch next? Oh,
1:26:13you're going to love this one. And I'll
1:26:14welcome you in the moment you hit play.
1:26:15[music]

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