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The Science Of Being "Ugly" | Dr. Mike Israetel — Transcript

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0:00I was at uh was at a college party once
0:04and there's tons of people in the party,
0:06guys, girls, everyone, you know, just
0:07college. There was a poster on the wall.
0:09It wasn't very big. Um
0:13but it said no fat chicks.
0:16I remember turning my head at one point
0:18during the party and I saw two girls
0:22standing there well away from the
0:24picture and they were chatting having
0:27fun and they were both like Mike like
0:30they were fat. I'm not going to walk
0:31around it. I wondered at the time, and
0:33I've wondered many times since
0:36what it would feel like to read that
0:38mid-con conversation with someone at the
0:40party,
0:42like
0:44it can't feel good.
0:48By a certain age, if you are not
0:50conventionally attractive or at least
0:51like decent, you start to learn
0:53subconsciously or consciously that all
0:55of these things that people live in
0:56their lives, romance, interaction,
0:58things like that, they're just not for
0:59you.
1:01That is a giant unmititigated tragedy.
1:04The aesthetic revolution using biology
1:06and technology and all of our best
1:08efforts. Whatever the hell you brought
1:09with your biology, however you look,
1:11we're going to make it a little bit
1:13better and then better and then better
1:15until you look like what you want. And
1:18then those people will have a
1:21psychological healing that is
1:23unprecedented.
1:24>> That means there's some kind of
1:25preassumption that those who are
1:26unattractive are broken.
1:28>> Do you believe that? Interesting choice
1:30of words by you.
1:33Not wrong, hurt.
1:37H hurt and thus requiring healing.
1:39>> On this episode, I welcome back my
1:41friend Dr. Mike Israel. To refresh your
1:43memory, he's a bodybuilder with a PhD in
1:46sports physiology from East Tennessee
1:49State, co-founder of Renaissance
1:51Periodization, and a former exercise
1:54science professor at Temple University.
1:56I was excited to have him back on to
1:58speak on his recent decision to undergo
2:01plastic surgery as well as his choice to
2:03return to competitive bodybuilding.
2:06However, upon the start of our
2:07conversation, he mentioned a new book
2:09he's written on aesthetics. This led to
2:11a lengthy discussion on beauty
2:13standards, the impact of them on mood,
2:16mental health, and even quality of life.
2:18Given that this podcast is focused on
2:20getting to the truth regardless of the
2:22perspective, I think it's important to
2:24note that some of the research I looked
2:26at after the conversation shows broad
2:29variability on certain claims discussed
2:31on the episode. You'll hear some strong
2:34strong takes about the universal beauty
2:36rules and preferences. To be fair, there
2:39are broad patterns. symmetry, clear
2:42skin, and some sex typical cues tend to
2:45be considered attractive across many
2:47groups. But significant cross-cultural
2:50research like the International Body
2:52Project show body size and shape ideals
2:55shift quite a bit with culture,
2:58resources, and media influence. There
3:00isn't one global template. Even for
3:02faces, twin and large sample studies
3:05show personal experience drives
3:08preferences more than genetics. That
3:10being said, attractive people seem to
3:12have certain real world advantages. So,
3:14Dr. Mike's advice surrounding nutrition
3:16and fitness could be valuable from a
3:18practical perspective. We just need to
3:20remember an important distinction. While
3:22these aesthetic, nutrition, and exercise
3:25driven recommendations can help with
3:26mental and cardiomatabolic outcomes,
3:29purely cosmetic changes show mixed
3:32psychological outcomes, and they require
3:35screening for conditions like body
3:36dysmorphic disorder. That being said, I
3:39hope you enjoyed my conversation with
3:41the other Dr. Mike. Huge thanks to
3:43Incogn for sponsoring this video. Let's
3:45get started. Tell me about the book.
3:47>> So, I just finished a rough draft and
3:50submitted it to the editing team.
3:52>> Okay.
3:52>> For a book. The editors hated it.
3:54>> Oh, great.
3:55>> And they said it needs to be completely
3:56different.
3:56>> But that's what that means. You're doing
3:57the right thing.
3:58>> I guess I
3:59>> I think so because that means you're
4:01getting an emotional response.
4:03>> Yeah. Um I'm kidding. They didn't say
4:05anything. No one reads. No one's ever
4:07going to read it.
4:08>> No one reads it. Okay.
4:09>> But uh so the book, the working title
4:12and likely the final title is the
4:14aesthetic revolution.
4:16>> And so this is some combination.
4:17>> Is this like the golden ratio thing?
4:20>> Uh yeah. Yeah. But applied to bodies.
4:23Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold up.
4:26>> Is that your body you're drawing?
4:27>> No. No, it was yours.
4:29>> Okay, got it.
4:30>> God, I have that many curves.
4:32>> Well, I don't know. You gave a lot of
4:34curves. There's like calf muscles in
4:36there in that curve.
4:37>> That's my little joke cuz like in
4:38hip-hop they do this like
4:40>> Oh, got it.
4:40>> And then I I just expanded it like roly
4:42the roly pololy body which I'm a huge
4:44fan of.
4:44>> Is that what the aesthetic revolution
4:46has become?
4:47>> To turn us all into roly polies 100%.
4:50The shell everything
4:52>> everything.
4:53>> Um okay. So serious note the aesthetic
4:56revolution is my attempt to do kind of
4:57two things. The book is going to be uh
5:00hypothetically although the rough draft
5:03is literally this part practical guide
5:05on how to get in shape for visual
5:09aesthetics.
5:10>> Okay.
5:11>> Part
5:13understanding why getting in shape for
5:15purely visual aesthetics in most cases
5:17makes you way healthier,
5:20way better quality of life, way better
5:23longevity and obviously massive
5:26psychological benefits. And then the
5:29kind of third part is to talk about what
5:33we've already figured out how to
5:34leverage in biology in order to change
5:38your body. But really, and the part I
5:40kind of like a lot is to talk about
5:44what's coming down the pipeline in the
5:46near term. Like that means drugs for
5:48example already in phase two or three
5:50trials and then what's coming in the
5:52medium-term and the long term. And long
5:54term here is like um AI long term which
5:57means 15 years. Anything past that I
5:59think like uh difficult to predict.
6:01>> What was the claim you made on the last
6:02podcast that by 2029 we'll have robot
6:06servants for homeless people? What do
6:07you
6:08>> I don't think it was 2029. I think I
6:09probably said it's likely I said
6:10something within 10 years sometime in
6:12the 2030s.
6:13>> It's it's a shame that we do podcasts so
6:15often that I can't call you on it
6:18soon.
6:19>> Yeah. Um
6:21>> do you still stand by that?
6:22>> Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. I was like as an
6:25example of what robotics will be able to
6:26do categorically yes.
6:28>> Uh will the policy situation result in
6:32that being the case is much more
6:34difficult to predict. Got it. But
6:35there's
6:35>> yeah I mean we're cutting funding for
6:37vaccinations
6:38across the globe for children. So
6:40>> do you mean poisons that our children
6:42get without consent?
6:44>> Oh no they're not our children.
6:46>> Oh no they're our children. I meant the
6:48grand children of the world. Um but
6:51yeah, so the aesthetic revolution is um
6:54and and I guess there's another element
6:56to it which I'd love to discuss today is
6:58the emotional component
7:01especially for females
7:04>> of how it feels to exist in society with
7:07a certain type of look and how
7:10differently it can feel and how deep the
7:13psychological implications go of
7:15existing with another type of look. a
7:17look that is much more preferred by
7:19mostly women themselves and then the
7:21majority of onlookers. To put a fine
7:23point on it and start this off with a
7:25bang, I'm going to use some terminology
7:28here that I mean in all of the best
7:30possible ways, but it's going to be ugly
7:33ugly terminology because these are very
7:35emotionally laden issues and they're
7:36very real. And so when you present as a
7:41male or female, especially as a female
7:44as more or less fundamentally
7:49I was going to let me use more
7:50scientific parlance. There is a normal
7:52distribution uh bell curve about which
7:55you can rank general attractiveness. How
7:58do you do this? It's super easy. You get
8:00like a,000 people or 10,000 people to
8:03just rate pictures of people like do you
8:05like this one better or that one? just
8:06be like just two, one at a time. Uhuh.
8:08Uhuh. And what you get from that if you
8:10rate a whole bunch of people is normally
8:11distributed. Most people get rated as
8:14like a she looks all right. Uh some
8:16people get rated like whoa tough. And
8:20some few people get rated like holy crap
8:22like Scarlett Johansson type of stuff.
8:24>> If you won't that change culturally,
8:28>> there are cultural differences, but
8:31they're actually smaller than most
8:32people expect. And so like there is
8:34actually not a place in the world where
8:36peak Scarlett Johansson can go and be
8:39nearly ubiquitously considered
8:40unattractive. There are foundational
8:43universal paradigms for attractiveness
8:47and um they are human universals in the
8:49technical sense that there is no
8:51recorded society that violates them on
8:54Moss and they're universal probably for
8:56genetic reasons as well. And so when you
8:59aggregate all of the insight on who is
9:01kind of most and least attractive on
9:03average, mind you, everyone has their
9:05own pick of the litter, what I like best
9:07in a female or a male is a little bit
9:09different than what most people like
9:10potentially. Everyone has their own. But
9:12if you aggregate the big numbers, how
9:14you walk through the world, how other
9:16people treat you, how you treat yourself
9:18in your own head when you look in the
9:19mirror does really depend on where on
9:21that spectrum you fall
9:23>> and who's doing that research that
9:24you're talking about. I've never seen it
9:26cuz obviously it's not a med school
9:27topic that gets
9:29>> like which one of your patients is more
9:30attractive like why does this matter
9:32like shut up anyway so here's a picture
9:33>> maybe in a plastic surgery residency
9:35>> ah so there it might matter um
9:38evolutionary psychology generally
9:40concerns itself with this um and so they
9:42have all kinds of evoc is one of these
9:44things where like the little bit that
9:47most people know about it is like oh
9:48cookie neat like we used to be primates
9:49or whatever we still are and like we
9:51have kind of internal drives that make
9:53sense we want to eat we want to have
9:54sex, blah, blah. You dig real deep into
9:56that field, you come out reeling a
9:58little bit cuz you're like, "That [ __ ]
9:59is ruthless." Uh and it is exactly as
10:02ruthless as many people's experiences of
10:04middle school for example
10:06>> because you can tell for example you can
10:09tell a girl who is
10:1315 years old now high school get
10:15whatever
10:17that is substantially overweight
10:20and has mostly android adoposity which
10:24means mostly excess body fat around the
10:26midsection thinner legs thinner arms and
10:30has a a pretty substantially notably
10:33asymmetrical facial structure with some
10:35parts of the face, eyes, ma nose, mouth
10:38radically different in uh size
10:41relationship to one another.
10:44You can tell her all sorts of things
10:46about how beautiful she is and as a
10:49human soul, as a being. Every single one
10:51is true. Unless she's like a junior
10:53league Stalin and you just don't know
10:54about it. You're like, "You're
10:55beautiful, Nancy." And she's like, "I am
10:58beautiful." are like, "Okay, where did
11:00your gerbil go?" Like everywhere. Oh
11:02god, you're not beautiful at all. You're
11:05terrible. But like, you know, every
11:07human is super beautiful in that deep
11:08way that is kind of just true for
11:10everyone.
11:11But if you are very well-meaning parents
11:14and you say, "Oh, Nancy, you look
11:16amazing."
11:18It's true between you two. But there's
11:20two problems with that. One is the same
11:23evolved software that all of us carry to
11:25assess other human bodies incredibly
11:27rapidly. incredibly subconsciously for
11:29general attractiveness exists in us and
11:32works in the mirror. So 15-year-old not
11:36so conventionally attractive looking
11:37Nancy will look at her own body in the
11:39mirror and be like, I I don't think I'm
11:43beautiful. I think people are telling me
11:44something that's generally not true.
11:47And when she interacts with other people
11:49at school, you're going to get a few
11:52different kinds of interactions. One
11:54kind of interaction is just really
11:55awesome. You ever meet like 15, 16 year
11:57olds? They're just so [ __ ] great.
11:59Like, why couldn't I be more like you
12:00when I was a kid? They just treat
12:01everyone with mega respect. They love
12:02everyone. They're super popular. It's
12:04just great. You were probably like that
12:05when you were a kid.
12:06>> Then there
12:08was the annoying clown.
12:10>> Uh oh, my man. Yeah. Same. And here we
12:13are.
12:13>> Mics.
12:14>> Yeah. Yeah. Um and then there is another
12:17kind of interaction where you um for
12:21example get outright bullying or
12:24degradation on the other extreme like
12:26hey you're fat you're ugly and like kids
12:30will say stuff like that all the time.
12:32Kids are a certain brand of ruthless
12:34that we as adults tend to forget until
12:36we experience it. Like you're around
12:37kids like what did you just say to your
12:39friend? Like you can't talk like this to
12:41people. But there's another kind kind of
12:43in the middle where everyone's cool with
12:46you. Everyone thinks you're dope. You're
12:49that 15-year-old girl that's
12:50significantly out of shape, let's say.
12:53And um but it's the subtleties that hit
12:55you the hardest. Um you're friends with
12:57all the girls, all the pretty popular
12:59girls and everyone in between. And they
13:01all like boys or whatever other girls,
13:03right? Trying to be inclusive. Cut me
13:05some slack. They like other people. And
13:07when you're an attractive female of that
13:09age and you like someone else, there's a
13:11pretty even chance that they're going to
13:12like you back. Decent at least. And so
13:15you're like, "Oh my god, like I love
13:17like John. He's so hot. Oh my god." And
13:19John's like, "Yeah, send it back. Text
13:20the whole thing." When you're that girl,
13:23when you're not conventionally
13:25attractive, and I'm using it very
13:27mildly, you are conventionally
13:28unattractive.
13:31Nobody tells you outright potentially
13:34that you're like that. And you know,
13:35people like to bring the pretty girls
13:36down. They call them ugly, too. So, it's
13:38all same same. And you could have gone
13:40through some of your life until that
13:42point thinking like, I fit in.
13:44Everything's great. I'm just like my
13:45super hot friends that are popular, too.
13:48And then you're like, I think I like
13:50Eric. I think Eric's amazing. I'm
13:52actually using subconsciously names of
13:54fictional characters in the book, by the
13:55way. People read that, they'll be like,
13:57ah.
13:58>> But, uh, here's a big problem. There's a
14:01high probability that Eric doesn't like
14:02you back, and that's going to hit you
14:04like a ton of bricks. Because it's not
14:07going to happen once. It's going to
14:08happen over and over and over to you in
14:10your life. It may start when you're
14:11eight, when you have little kid crushes.
14:12And it may extend all the way through
14:14your entire life where just because
14:17you're shaped a certain way, it doesn't
14:20matter how you are on the inside. It
14:21doesn't matter how gorgeous you are as a
14:24human being to others, how intelligent
14:25you are, how patient you are. All those
14:28real qualities that we know like people
14:29get married for, you know, like can you
14:31imagine someone's like, "Oh man, uh you
14:33marry your wife cuz she was hot." you'd
14:34be like, "Oh, that would be a profoundly
14:36stupid decision just to make on that one
14:38metric, right?" And so
14:41most people will never see that part of
14:43you because they evaluate you on just
14:45one metric. It's like a gateway. The
14:47rest of you is behind it, but your
14:49gateway doesn't look like they want to
14:50go through and they just don't. And you
14:52want them to go through. You read no
14:54romance novels. You watch romcoms like
14:56everybody else. But by a certain age, if
14:59you are not conventionally attractive or
15:01at least like decent, you start to learn
15:04subconsciously or consciously that all
15:05of these things that people live in
15:07their lives, romance, interaction,
15:08things like that, dating, they're just
15:10not for you. And I happen to think that
15:15is a giant a first world problem, right?
15:18But a giant unmitigated tragedy. and the
15:22aesthetic revolution, the culmination of
15:24this idea that using biology and
15:27technology and all of our best efforts
15:29that we're going to make every uh for
15:31the purposes of this uh and my own
15:33personal view at the very least adults
15:35uh over 18, whatever the hell you
15:38brought with your biology, however you
15:39look, we're going to make it a little
15:42bit better and then better and then
15:43better until you look like what you
15:45want. so that your external presentation
15:48matches your internal representation of
15:50what you think you want to look like.
15:52And then those people will have a
15:55psychological healing that is
15:58unprecedented.
15:59And I think that getting folks to look
16:02exactly how they want to look could be
16:05such a major amazing thing that happens
16:08that I'm both excited about it, but also
16:12hoping that it gets ushered in faster
16:14rather than slower. And one of the
16:17purposes of this book is to tell folks
16:19about these things happening in the tech
16:21space, in the biological space, and
16:22already how much you can do about it now
16:24with training and diet, which we can get
16:25into. um so that they know that uh they
16:30don't have to settle for looking like
16:32what they're supposed to look like and
16:34they can get much better because the
16:39amount of psychological healing that can
16:41occur from someone who has been
16:45oh how do I say this best significantly
16:48below average in attractiveness for much
16:50of their life
16:52when they gain that above average
16:54attractiveness they've always wanted
16:57that can change them profoundly in a way
16:59that is not to be understated and that's
17:02kind of the big thesis.
17:03>> So as a doctor
17:06would you say that they they can
17:08experience tremendous healing that means
17:11there's some kind of preassumption that
17:12those who are unattractive are broken?
17:15>> Do you believe that?
17:19Interesting choice of words by you. Um
17:23not wrong, hurt,
17:26hurt, psychologically hurt. Um and thus
17:30requiring healing. So um
17:32>> and how are you landing there?
17:34>> Yeah. I mean, so if you look at the
17:37literature on how
17:40the degree of
17:42>> I'll just throw a random non-related
17:44example of where my mind's going.
17:46>> Sure. Sure. There is this presumption
17:48that if you're not as wealthy as someone
17:50else, you're sadder,
17:53>> not as happy. But then when we look at
17:56basic needs being met,
17:59you have security, you have a home,
18:00whatever that magic number is, one
18:02documentary, one study will tell you
18:03some specific number, $70,000 or the
18:06year, happiness doesn't really change.
18:10Is this the same principle where like
18:12your looks really don't matter
18:16even in a situation where people say,
18:18"Oh, if I lose a limb, I'm going to be
18:19so much less happy." But then you have
18:22the same interviews with people who have
18:24lost a limb or are paraplegic or
18:26quadripollegic and they say, "No, my
18:28happiness is levels the same."
18:31>> Is this the same wrong assumption that
18:33we could make as humans in those
18:35examples?
18:36>> Mhm. That's a great point. the amount of
18:40psychological healing that can result
18:43from you radically upgrading your appear
18:46appearance so that you look like what
18:47you want
18:49um is not boundless
18:52and it also requires a certain bit of
18:55work on at least two other fronts. One
18:58is really kind of um doing the inner
19:01inner work of accepting and loving
19:03yourself. Nobody can do that for you.
19:05therapists can help a ton, but uh you
19:08can look flawless and you there are many
19:10many Instagram girls that are look like
19:12oh my god this is a real person and
19:14they're brains are all sorts of gnarly
19:16because they hate themselves. So that's
19:18definitely a thing and also
19:22once you become much more attractive you
19:25have to let it sink in. And the way I've
19:28been thinking about it is this. Let's
19:30say that between the age of five when
19:33you first found out that people thought
19:34you were ugly generally and some people
19:36were nice enough not to say it but many
19:37people were not nice enough to say it
19:39and up until you're 35 and you finally
19:41get uh let's just pretend it's just all
19:43one radical procedure together and you
19:45come come out as a Barbie you have an
19:47area under the curve of 30 years of
19:50trauma basically
19:52and you may need 30 years of really
19:58embibing with your true deep self, this
20:01new reality. Because a lot of people
20:04when they get an upgrade, they'll go,
20:06"Oh, yeah." People like, "Oh my god, you
20:08look gorgeous." Like, "Oh, yeah. Ah,
20:10it's no big deal." And it's fine to say
20:12that for a polite company, but even in
20:14their own heads, they'll try not to
20:16accept the fact that no, they do belong.
20:18Now, I think that acceptance takes a
20:20long time and is something optional. You
20:22can do it or you cannot do it. Some
20:24people have made radical transformations
20:25in a variety of things and have never
20:28really let them sink in and then they're
20:31making I think a gigantic mistake
20:33because all of that stuff that happened
20:36to you in your childhood that people
20:37said hateful things, you thought such
20:39hateful things about yourself, that's
20:41neural wiring and you don't really in
20:44most cases I mean unless you smash a ton
20:46of psychedelics or something even that
20:48doesn't work all that well. You don't
20:49just rewire everything right up. Like
20:50your brain doesn't work like a CPU where
20:52just delete this part of the drive and
20:54install a new program. It takes a long
20:56time to upgrade. And so the benefits of
21:00looking substantially more attractive
21:02than you used to are not infinite. And
21:05you can absolutely collect very few of
21:07them even if you look super attractive
21:08if you resist really like floating in
21:10that wonderful sea of compliments and of
21:12looking yourself in the mirror and
21:14going, "Yeah, hell yeah. Hell yeah. This
21:15is working." Cuz like I know people in
21:17bodybuilding that look like like
21:18machines, like androids, like flaw. Like
21:20you look at them, you're like, "How the
21:21hell do you look like this?" And they
21:23like point to like one part, they're
21:24like, "Yeah, I only love how my chest is
21:26shaped." That shit's on their mind 24/7.
21:28And if someone compliments them like,
21:29"Yeah, I don't know. I kind of have
21:30small arms." The hell is wrong with you?
21:32Don't you ever want to feel like you
21:33actually did the thing? And most people
21:35around you won't help you feel that.
21:36It's something you have to feel
21:37yourself. So it is definitely not a
21:40thing. Uh just like the wealth example,
21:42you can't really say like as soon as you
21:44get wealthy, you'll be happy forever. Is
21:46this solve all your problems? Absolutely
21:48not. But I will say the the the opposite
21:51is also an interesting thought
21:52experiment. If you're like, well, you
21:54know, people who lose limbs are
21:55statistically roughly as happy after,
21:58say, years of agony of trying to accept
22:00the fact that they don't have a limb
22:02anymore. By the way, uh that as the rest
22:04of us, that's totally true. If I give
22:06you a saw, how likely are you to chop
22:08your leg off? I say profoundly unlikely
22:10for good reason. At least the acute
22:12trauma of having to deal with the fact
22:13that your limb is gone is substantially
22:15different. Now, what would be really
22:16wonderful is people who've lost limbs
22:18to, you know, get to a place where
22:20synthetic biology is so good it can grow
22:21you a limb back. So, you have all of the
22:23deep lessons of happiness that you took
22:25away from that traumatic incident and
22:27having to cope with it. Plus, you have a
22:29limb. That would be really awesome. So,
22:32the money thing is also uh I like that
22:34you brought that up. So, it turns out my
22:36my last look at the data, it looks like
22:38the relationship between money and
22:40happiness is roughly linear and a very
22:43steep slope up until you get to like
22:44whatever $70,000 roughly blah blah blah.
22:47Uh let's call it $100,000 inflation
22:49adjusted, etc. Because like basic needs
22:51met and you have enough money for
22:53entertainment, you don't feel super
22:54constrained anymore. uh uh to get that
22:58much happiness takes, you know, from
23:00going from $10,000 a year to $100,000,
23:03you get like, let's say, 1x improvement
23:05in happiness. You actually get the same
23:071x improvement again, 2x improvement,
23:09but you you have to make about 10 times
23:12more money. So, their happiness going
23:15from 100,000 a year income to a million
23:17is the same as going from 10,000 to
23:19100,000, but it's 10x. And so if you go
23:21from 100,000 to 200,000, you're like,
23:24"Oh, my happiness is going to double."
23:25No, it's not. It's going to be like 1.15
23:27or whatever, and you're like, I feel
23:29basically the same. But if you get to a
23:31million, Yeah. Oh, yeah. And if you get
23:33to 10 million, oh yeah, you're going to
23:35get another big happiness boost. If you
23:36get to 100 million a year, holy [ __ ]
23:39it's going to be a thing. Now, your
23:40brain has way ways of leveling you off
23:42like it's um hideonic treadmill 100%.
23:46But uh there is also another perspective
23:49I think is is super super important
23:51here. When you're telling people that
23:54becoming more attractive won't make you
23:56happier.
23:59Maybe as happy as you think it will.
24:01That's super valid. It hits different
24:03when you're telling someone who's like
24:05pretty damn good-looking that like that
24:07extra little part of perfection won't
24:08make a big deal. It hits real different
24:10if you're telling someone who has been
24:12made fun of for how they look and it is
24:14clear to everyone, including themselves,
24:15that they're very grotesqually
24:16unattractive. They're like, "Oh, well,
24:18it really won't matter much in your
24:20life." It's tantamount to telling
24:22someone who scrapes by on $10,000 a year
24:25like, "Listen, I have money, kid. You
24:27don't want money. It's more problems.
24:28The girls get crazier." And it's like,
24:30"Hey, rich guy. Can you get the [ __ ] out
24:32of my face until you have money for me
24:34and then you can tell me things like
24:35that?" So, I think that for people who
24:38have been thinking like, "Oh, I I could
24:40like I could use bigger boobs. That'd be
24:41nice." Yeah, like you get a little bit
24:43of happiness out of that when you get
24:45them installed and that's about it. for
24:46people who have been and I mean
24:48traumatized traumatized with years of
24:51having to deal with the fact that they
24:52are very unattractive. Um I think they
24:55get big boosts out of becoming
24:58substantially more attractive doing the
24:59inner work and accepting the fact that
25:02they now live in a a new reality and
25:03they have to embide that all the time.
25:05>> Yeah. I think about this um from a
25:08cognitive behavioral standpoint.
25:09Obviously, I'm a family medicine doctor,
25:11not a psychiatrist or a psychologist,
25:13but given the limited availability with
25:16mental health access these days with
25:17patients, I end up filling the role of
25:21beginning or doing an intro session
25:23about what CBT is quite often with
25:24patients.
25:26>> And a lot of it is figuring out what
25:28version of the hyonic treadmill patients
25:30are on, what they envision happiness to
25:34look like. And a lot of times it's set
25:36to extrinsic goals like wealth, a number
25:40of followers, uh a specific cup size, uh
25:44height size these days, uh bicep size.
25:47And the reality is none of those things
25:49actually yield long-term happiness. Like
25:52having Yeah. Like the fact that you
25:54could change those things in a moment
25:56will create a spike on the chart because
25:59it's something different. It's something
26:00new. You're going to get accustomed to
26:02this new lifestyle. But the fact that
26:03you will get accustomed to it means that
26:06there's something intrinsically going on
26:08that's driving the unhappiness. So like
26:10wouldn't the better exercise instead of
26:14trying to fix what perhaps a generation
26:17of individuals or culturally we believe
26:19to be attractive instead focus on let's
26:23go on a higher level of what it means to
26:26be human. Let's not devolve to the the
26:29childlike state of calling each other
26:31ugly. Let's figure out how we value
26:33other traits. The kindness, the
26:36intellectualness, the curiosity that
26:39someone has, the humor someone can bring
26:41to a conversation and put that as the
26:44priority of what we should be focusing
26:47on. Or do you feel like no matter what
26:48we do, we're so biologically driven, it
26:51doesn't matter that we're going to put
26:53our focus into that? Doesn't matter that
26:54we're going to focus with cognitive
26:56behavioral therapy to help individuals
26:58if they do carry trauma. You think that
27:01the physically there's better bang for
27:03your buck to make that transition?
27:07>> I don't know if it's better. I think
27:09it's additive. I think both would be
27:12great. And if we can solve both
27:14problems, that would be great. I also
27:16think there are some things in life that
27:20uh really good-looking people have
27:22access to that not really not
27:24good-looking people don't. And there's
27:27unlikely to be an amount of therapy in
27:29any approximate time frame that's going
27:32to mediate those. For example, as a
27:36single woman in her late 20s who is
27:39conventionally profoundly unattractive,
27:41radical morbid obesity, very
27:43asymmetrical face shape, the whole
27:44thing. I don't have to say it. We know
27:45what it is. um
27:48like it's really if you go on a real
27:50spirit journey to deep into Eastern
27:53Buddhist tradition, it is possible you
27:56will come out um changed profoundly and
27:59a level of serenity and happiness that
28:00you didn't even think was possible.
28:03Um and then there's that guy at work you
28:05like and you want a family
28:08and you realize that uh you can't trick
28:11romance. Humans are primates and uh they
28:16uh could love you as a human a ton, but
28:19there's no spark because the spark is
28:22largely physical. Um
28:25people have this term called love at
28:27first sight. I'm sure you've heard it.
28:28So, first of all, that's not love.
28:30That's ridiculous. That's crush at best,
28:32maybe.
28:32>> I mean, I don't know. People sat across
28:34from me and said some pretty miraculous
28:36things about seeing their loved one for
28:38the first time. You've seen Goodwill
28:40Hunting. I hated that movie.
28:42>> What?
28:43>> Yeah. For one very autistic reason.
28:46>> Like for all the controversial things
28:47you say, that's the wildest thing I've
28:48heard you say.
28:49>> I was 13 when I watched that movie.
28:51>> Well, that's why.
28:52>> You don't get it.
28:53>> Oh, I got it.
28:54>> You're still stuck at age 13.
28:55>> I'm still trying to figure out the
28:56equations on the board. Um, well, there
28:59was a recruiter from uh the military
29:01that military intelligence that came to
29:02try to recruit Matt Damon for
29:04>> and he gave like a really funny speech.
29:05Uh, the baby seal.
29:07>> He gave like a like a retort that was
29:09just wrong. And the only thing I could
29:11think about it was like, "Wow, you're
29:12not really that smart, are you?"
29:13>> Well, it's a movie.
29:15>> Okay.
29:16>> That's why I hated it. Well, yeah, but
29:17it's with bad fiction. Is that okay?
29:19Although, it's very realistic. Like, uh,
29:21a cocky person who's really high raw IQ
29:24and doesn't know geopolitics well, could
29:25very well have given that answer. But I
29:27hated it because he gave a stupid answer
29:28and I hated him and I hated the movie. I
29:30did a lot of hating.
29:31>> He was being witty. I don't think he was
29:33looking to be
29:34>> Well, he actually rejected the offer.
29:35>> Yeah. Yeah. But I don't think he was
29:36looking to be accurate.
29:38I thought he was looking to to respond
29:40in a really piffy way that really
29:42undercut the entire premise of the
29:43military. Sure. But failed that.
29:45>> I don't think that he was trying to be
29:47factually accurate while doing so. The
29:49same way that he was perhaps calling one
29:51of the therapist gay.
29:53>> Mhm.
29:54>> I don't think he was trying to really
29:56call him gay. I think he was trying to
29:57throw him off his game.
29:58>> I think the people that wrote that line
30:01in the script, those lines, I think they
30:03thought those were lines that other
30:05smart people would be like, "Ah, he got
30:06him." But if you really know anything
30:08about geopolitics, you'd be like,
30:10"That's a clown take." And that's wrong
30:12in any case.
30:13>> Okay. So, that one line killed you in
30:15the movie.
30:16>> 100%.
30:16>> No. Come on. What about the relationship
30:18with Robin Williams? Robin Williams
30:19speaking about his wife.
30:22>> Uh,
30:23yeah. It was dope.
30:24>> Okay.
30:25>> On the Metrics. Phenomenal movie.
30:28>> It's just a good movie. Oh,
30:30>> but I hated it. I make a real good hobby
30:32out of hating good movies.
30:33>> Any other good movies you hate?
30:35>> Name a good movie. probably hated
30:37Shashank. I cried like a child. I love
30:39that movie.
30:40>> So there you go.
30:41>> Who's I don't know. I thought you would
30:43hate it. You're like, "What is he doing
30:44with those rocks?" Rocks are meant for
30:46skipping.
30:47>> I I want to see the person that can
30:50watch the end of Shashank when he's
30:51walking down the Pacific coastline and
30:52they see each other and not cry and be
30:54like, "Keep that person the psychopath."
30:56>> That's another good movie that um
30:58>> Forest Gump.
30:59>> Forest Gump's really good. Uh I like one
31:02that's not known to be a favorite
31:04amongst anyone. Man on Fire, Denzel,
31:07Dakota Fanning, Kidnapped Girl in
31:09Mexico, Mark Anthony. Did you see it?
31:12>> Did you think it was good? Whatever.
31:14Yeah, most people feel that way about
31:16it. I like the music.
31:17>> There's this genre of movie where it's
31:19um
31:21>> um a real jilted man, jilted
31:24protagonist,
31:25>> and he's struggling internally. Like
31:27Will Smith has a lot of these roles
31:29where he does the Will Smith face where
31:30he's like,
31:32>> and I just I just don't it just never
31:34hits. I'm like, I don't know what he's
31:35thinking.
31:35>> What was that Will Smith movie when he
31:37was a broke guy, but he was really
31:39smart?
31:41>> And he went with his uh pursuit of
31:42happiness.
31:42>> The pursuit of happiness.
31:44>> Did you like that?
31:45>> I never saw it.
31:45>> Oh, that was good.
31:46>> I watched the preview and I was like,
31:47never in a million years am I watching
31:48that [ __ ]
31:49>> You don't like movies?
31:50>> Yeah. No. God, no. I'm the worst movie
31:51critic of all time.
31:52>> You hit me like a guy who watches police
31:54body cam footage or something.
31:56>> It's exactly what I watch.
31:57>> That see
31:58>> Crystal and I watch that all the time.
32:00Nothing beats reality, bro. That's real.
32:02Nobody scripted that [ __ ]
32:03>> Yeah. The fact that you watch that is
32:04scary. Why that?
32:06>> Um, humanity in the raw, I think, is
32:09actually one of the the futures of
32:11content creation because curated content
32:13that's designed to deceive you into a
32:15false reality is like awesome from an
32:17artistic perspective, but something
32:20about seeing [ __ ] as it really is is
32:23really, really intense because you
32:24actually just don't know what's going to
32:25happen. You know, it's not narrative
32:27driven. It's just like this is real
32:28life. Um, also, uh, I don't want to get
32:31too far on this tangent. Uh, the
32:33politically correct understanding of
32:35criminology is so at odds with the real
32:37understanding of criminology that police
32:38body cam videos, if you have the
32:40incorrect understanding, will inoculate
32:41you within several videos to like, what
32:42the hell the hell is going on here?
32:44Like, most criminals are uh, the kind of
32:47people that once you get to know them,
32:48you realize why they're in trouble with
32:50the law all the time, and it's not a
32:51mystery anymore.
32:52>> And so, it's always like, oh, these are
32:54real human beings. [ __ ] actually is like
32:56that.
32:56>> All right. So, wait, love at first
32:57sight. off.
32:58>> Let's let's move off police body cams
33:00because that's gonna take us in a
33:01direction.
33:02>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right.
33:03So, love at first sight
33:05>> is um a thing that is fun fundamentally
33:08reserved mostly for attractive people
33:10>> and through no doing of their own mostly
33:12because attractiveness is largely
33:14genetic unless we have tractable ways to
33:16change it, which is what the book is
33:17about. And so, you could be that girl
33:19that went on a Buddhist spirit journey.
33:21She's okay with how she looks at a huge
33:23deep level. You're still not going out
33:24with that guy at the office who you
33:25adore. He's never going to marry you.
33:27you're never going to have children with
33:28him. You may not ever have the candidacy
33:30of a man that you consider worthwhile of
33:32your time on a financial level, on a
33:35status level, on a deep emotional
33:37connection level, on an intellectual
33:38level. All of those guys have pursued
33:40women significantly more attractive than
33:42you physically. And you're never going
33:44to eat at that table. And that is a
33:46tragedy because inside you're much
33:48better.
33:48>> That's an unfair assumption that that
33:50would happen.
33:54>> It's statistically true. So, minority.
33:58>> This is a statistic that you
33:59specifically
34:00>> Yeah. Uh statistically true in the sense
34:02of that it happens on on average and on
34:04aggregate. So like is there a
34:05probability that you're fundamentally
34:07very unattractive and you meet a guy
34:09who's way super attractive in all of the
34:11ways that matter and the physical ways
34:13and he says yes, you're that girl. Yes.
34:16Is it so unlikely that there are romcoms
34:19about it? Yes.
34:20>> Yeah. like on a vocabulary English level
34:26of the words you're saying, I could say
34:28it makes sense.
34:29>> Mhm.
34:30>> The same way that I can say, "Oh man,
34:33putting chemicals in children is bad."
34:37>> Mhm.
34:37>> Also makes sense, but vaccines are good.
34:40>> Yeah. So, like, how do we distinguish
34:42between what you're saying as sounding
34:44good versus
34:47this is actually what plays out all the
34:49time and it's not socially driven by
34:52movies and influence from a Hollywood
34:55side of things? Like, what's the
34:57reality? If humans were left to their
34:59own devices, how do we figure that out?
35:01M
35:05if you dig a level deeper on the
35:08chemicals claim, you realize that it
35:10actually doesn't make any sense because
35:12if you've ever paid attention for
35:14several days in high school chemistry,
35:16you know that everything is a chemical
35:17pretty much except for like the neutron
35:19star or something. And uh then you
35:21realize that actually is a a meaningless
35:23statement. And if you dig down deep
35:26enough on the claim that physical
35:28attractiveness matters a great deal for
35:30outcomes in the world, you run into two
35:33things. One is the statistical data on
35:36various coralates of success, outcomes
35:38at work, outcomes in social spheres,
35:40number of friends, intimacy with other
35:42people. They correlate uh um grandiosely
35:45with physical attractiveness in a way
35:47that I consider both true, real, and
35:50disgusting.
35:52It's a thing. The other way you can do
35:54it is just talk to regular people. Uh I
35:56think it passes the obvious test. Um and
35:59I'll say this and I mean this with all
36:01very very due respect. You're very
36:03attractive conventionally. I do have a
36:06citation. You've been in multiple
36:07magazines as one of the most attractive
36:08doctors of all time or whatever.
36:11>> Good luck refuting that.
36:12>> Okay.
36:12>> Okay. Um
36:14>> which by the way I think I tricked them.
36:16But
36:16>> my man, that's all angles, right? Cuz
36:18like this you don't look back like that.
36:20>> That's face. Clint Eastwood 1972.
36:23>> This whole podcast has been facetuned.
36:26>> Do you know what Facetune is?
36:27>> Uhhuh.
36:28>> Oh, it's an app.
36:29>> Oh, it looks
36:30>> like Photoshop your face.
36:32>> Yeah.
36:33>> I tried to download one of those apps
36:34and the algorithm is like this just too
36:36much.
36:37>> It doesn't do it automatically. It's not
36:39an AI thing.
36:40>> You have to know what's messed up.
36:42>> Yeah. Right. I need a lot of AI. So, um,
36:46you have likely, at least for times in
36:47your life, experienced reality at a very
36:49different How tall are you? 6'3.
36:51>> 63.
36:53Super handsome,
36:55super educated,
36:57iridite, very well spoken, fashionable,
37:01I might add. Um, did I mention ultra
37:04wealthy? I saw your Ferrari's video, so
37:06can the [ __ ] Thank you. And then,
37:08damn it, pull that video off YouTube.
37:11Um, and then you're 63 and the way
37:17humans treat you in the world is going
37:18to be very different than they treat
37:20other people.
37:21>> And if you get folks and talk to real
37:24humans that have the opposite of all of
37:26those things on the metrics I just
37:27listed, their perception of how other
37:30humans treat them is going to be very
37:31different. And that's their real truth
37:33that they live every single day. And so
37:36if we look at the statistical data on
37:37like life outcomes and on people's
37:40emotional um regulation and stability
37:42and perception of their happiness during
37:44various formative years looking like
37:45some other things, we find that like
37:47it's pretty grim picture, pretty grim.
37:49And if we kind of step back and think
37:51like have I ever had times in my life
37:53where I was less than, where I didn't
37:55fit in and uh it's tough. It's really
37:58really tough. And so what I would say to
38:01answer that kind of final place where
38:02this started is I think it's
38:04combinatorial
38:06accepting that your attraction to other
38:09people etc really is only skin deep and
38:12that most of the value of who you are
38:14really is up here somewhere I think is
38:16phenomenal. I think uh making sure that
38:20you attend to your inner dynamics is
38:23huge therapy etc. But I think that
38:26there's a certain kind of benefit to
38:29actually looking like you always wanted
38:32that if we heal that, if we fix that, it
38:35both makes these things easier and it
38:38adds to the slice of the pie because
38:40when I ask myself how happy can people
38:43get, how fulfilled can they get? I don't
38:45really tend to see a top end to that. I
38:47think it's boundless. And so I say why
38:49not more? And also none of this is
38:51prescriptive. I could give in the best
38:54way possible a flying how anyone looks I
38:58will accept you as you period. Um do you
39:02accept you as you is a very different
39:04question. How do you want to live your
39:06life is a very different question. And
39:08there are a lot of people that have
39:10grown up attractive and have never been
39:12not attractive that run into one
39:14hypothetical problem and one real
39:16problem. One hypothetical problem is if
39:18they were in an unattractive body and
39:20face, they would think that the world
39:22changed overnight for them. And it
39:23really kind of would have. And the real
39:25problem is a lot of women who put a lot
39:27into how they look when they're younger.
39:30As they get older, and you can see this
39:32evolve on social media, they start to
39:34report that people are so much meaner
39:36nowadays. People are so rude nowadays.
39:39Everyone used to be so cool. Well, cuz
39:42everyone used to want to stick it in you
39:43and now you're old. Sorry, it's real
39:46life. And I I don't like any part of
39:49that. Uh I think that that rude
39:52awakening to the fact that you never
39:53really invested in much of anything else
39:55and you just assumed you were cool, but
39:57really it's cuz you were hot. I think
39:59there's like a the ugly people in the
40:01back are like, "Yeah, take that, you
40:02know, Stacy." But I'm trying to be like,
40:05why why does anyone ever have to be
40:07unattractive? Like this is a solvable
40:09problem. And my prediction is that over
40:11the next 10 to 15 years, it's going to
40:13be basically completely solved problem
40:15that everyone will just access like, oh,
40:18I want to look like this now. I look
40:19like this. And I think that's almost all
40:21upsides. Do you think that if someone's
40:24watching this and they feel they're
40:27unattractive or perhaps kids in their
40:30class tell them they're unattractive in
40:31high school, middle school, college,
40:33whoever's listening,
40:34>> do you think them hearing what you're
40:36saying is valuable to them? Or do you
40:39think it potentially perpetuates the
40:42idea that they're broken
40:43>> and they should feel broken and they're
40:45going to have a terrible life and that
40:47people won't like them? No one's going
40:49to fall in love with them at first
40:51sight.
40:52Do you think that is helpful to them?
40:55>> I think to them it's like telling
40:57Ukrainians that live close to the
40:59battlefield that war sucks.
41:02They know you don't have to tell them
41:04[ __ ] They know better than you that it
41:06sucks.
41:06>> Well, I would say that they don't. Not
41:08because that perhaps people haven't told
41:09them or they haven't felt it. Is this
41:11feeling that you're describing of
41:13feeling less than or feeling
41:14unattractive. This isn't
41:18universally isolated to people who are
41:20unattractive.
41:22Attractive people feel ugly. If you ask
41:26some of the most beautiful people in the
41:27world, they'll often times talk about
41:28how ugly they feel.
41:29>> Yeah. Totally.
41:30>> So, this feeling could be implanted
41:34>> in people who don't feel ugly.
41:36>> Mhm.
41:37>> When by your measurements and aesthetic
41:39principles, you may deem them ugly.
41:41>> So, that's my question. Can you implant
41:43that in them?
41:44>> Yeah. Yeah.
41:45um quadrant
41:48how you feel, how you actually look.
41:52Four possible scenarios. One is that you
41:56look amazing on average. Um and you feel
42:01awesome. You feel beautiful. Amazing.
42:05The aesthetic revolution is just trying
42:06to get everyone into that quadrant, by
42:07the way. That's the best quadrant.
42:09>> But feel great and look great.
42:10>> Yeah. Um not so controversial. Mhm.
42:14>> You mean like who's trying to get them
42:15there when you say they're trying to get
42:17them there?
42:18>> Me.
42:19>> Writing.
42:20>> What do you mean? Okay.
42:20>> Yeah. Yeah.
42:21>> So, you're trying to get people into
42:22that.
42:22>> Yeah. Oh, yeah.
42:23>> You want everyone to feel good and look
42:24good.
42:25>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Look like you want and
42:27then feel also like you want. Most
42:28people probably want to feel good and
42:29look good, but that's none of my
42:31business. If you want to look like
42:31whatever, again, like I have cart
42:33blanch. I have t tons of money. Okay. I
42:36have a loving wife who accepts me no
42:37matter what. I could have already got
42:39height enhancement surgery. I could have
42:40had lots of face surgery. They're
42:41fundamentally not terrible looking, but
42:43there's stuff to improve. I could have
42:44gotten the hair [ __ ] I don't give a I
42:45want to look like a Teenage Mutant Ninja
42:47Turtle that like was more mutant than
42:49Teenage or or Turtle. Uh, ta success,
42:52right? So, if you want to look a certain
42:53way, I love it. But the thing is, most
42:56people, if you survey them just want to
42:59look conventionally attractive. It's
43:01just really the thing. And so, like, you
43:03know, the whole Lizo situation,
43:05>> what's the whole Lizo situation? So,
43:06like there's a a real fun kind of inside
43:08joke that uh you know your hot
43:10girlfriends are like, "Oh my god, Lizo's
43:12so gorgeous." And then you're like, "You
43:14look like Lizo." And they're like, "What
43:15the [ __ ] do you mean I look like Lizo?"
43:16They don't take it well. I thought she
43:18said she was gorgeous. Like, I meant
43:19like, you know what? They just shut up.
43:20And they don't want the conversation
43:21because even Lizo wants to look like
43:24Scarlett Johansson fundamentally. So, I
43:27digress. We all want to be in that that
43:29one quadrant. There are people that look
43:31good to your point, and they don't feel
43:33so good inside. They feel ugly.
43:37number one candidate therapy immersion
43:40that's a path you have to walk yourself
43:41totally there are people that look
43:44terrible again on statistical aggregate
43:46not in some moralistic way but how most
43:48people perceive them and how they
43:50perceive themselves
43:51and they feel amazing they feel
43:54beautiful Lizo I don't know how she
43:57feels on the inside she got more swag
43:59than half of Manhattan all put together
44:01so I feel like she probably feeling
44:02pretty goddamn good about herself and so
44:04that is nothing short of wonderful. And
44:08if that's where you want to stop, God
44:11bless you. Then there are people who
44:14feel ugly and look ugly and almost every
44:19interaction they ever have that's not
44:20neutral reinforces both of those things.
44:23So if you tell someone, hey,
44:27you're not attractive conventionally.
44:29You know this, like, yeah, no [ __ ] But
44:32like through a personal journey, you can
44:33just shrug all that off and feel your
44:35best. They're like, "Dope."
44:37That's very easy to say, profoundly
44:40difficult to do because every sign you
44:44get around you, especially as a younger
44:46person and really as a person of any
44:47age, especially as a woman is the sign
44:50is the opposite. the amount of inner
44:52work and the amount of strength you have
44:54to hold uh keep your self-esteem and
44:57self-image up at all times is really
44:59tough to do in in the face of
45:01everything. It's similar to telling
45:02someone who's profoundly desperately
45:05poor be like, "Well, like everyone in
45:071700 was poor and they pulled themselves
45:09up by their bootstraps. They did great."
45:11Like you just have to have more
45:12resilience. You know what the thing is?
45:13To your point that is true. Every single
45:15poor person could have more resilience
45:17and just deal with it and they get
45:18themselves out. People do it all the
45:20time. Immigrants do it all the time, but
45:22it hits different when it's coming from
45:23someone who has money telling a poor
45:25person like just you don't need all this
45:27money. You just got to get, you know,
45:28it's all up here. Like, all right. It
45:31would sure [ __ ] help if I had some
45:32money, though, wouldn't it? And we know
45:34it would. And so, I say both. And I say
45:37that there are definitely people that
45:40are gorgeous on the outside, but
45:42struggle deeply mentally. But who we're
45:44forgetting are the people that have the
45:46exact same genetic proclivity for poor
45:48self-image, but they are existing in
45:50bodies that are statistically
45:52unattractive. That's extra double double
45:55misery. That sucks in a way that at
45:57least the attractive person's like, "Oh,
45:59I feel like shit." And Kevin's like,
46:01"You're so beautiful, Stacy." And she's
46:03like, "Oh, stop. I don't believe it." At
46:04least she's got Kevin over here telling
46:06her some [ __ ] And every other guy she
46:07loved from me, he'd be like, "Oh my
46:08god." Like, you know, when you're hot
46:09enough, it gets annoying because there's
46:10guys just ugly all the time. Hey, what a
46:12great problem to have. What if you want
46:14people to augle you and they never do?
46:15And the people that you like and you
46:17want to reach out to romantically,
46:18almost never do they say yes. And at
46:21some point you learn that they're
46:22probably not going to say yes. Mike,
46:24there are I would say very heristic,
46:27very handwavy uh estimate here.
46:30millions of American women and around
46:32the world, God knows tens of millions
46:35that have written off the probability
46:37that they will find physical intimacy
46:39with someone because it has been so
46:41unavailable to them in their real life
46:43that they're like, "That's just not me."
46:45That's tragic. I don't want to say
46:47everyone deserves physical intimacy and
46:49the recognition of beauty of another
46:51person. Someone to touch your body and
46:53accept it for what it is and find it
46:54attractive. Um, it deserves as a strange
46:58word, but is there a reason those people
47:00don't have it and other people do? And
47:01there there is. It's just genetics and
47:03we can change some of that stuff.
47:04>> What about the fact that I I I don't
47:07know what great studies have been done
47:09on this. I haven't studied the subject
47:11enough. In fact, this is my first time
47:12discussing the subject with you. um that
47:15people who let's say if you get a
47:18thousand people uh a diverse enough
47:20sample size rank someone a five or they
47:24rank themselves a five on a scale of 1
47:26to 10. They then select a partner that's
47:30in a similar range. And given the fact
47:33that there are perhaps people who based
47:35on these aesthetic principles will be a
47:37one.
47:38>> Mhm.
47:38>> They will find someone else who's a one
47:41and they will deem each other beautiful.
47:43You disagree with that as a compensatory
47:46natural mechanism that nature designed.
47:50>> I wish it were so man.
47:53Some people really do function like
47:55that. And I think like that's such a
47:58huge unlock. What an incredibly
48:01massively beneficial adaptation to kind
48:03of detect where you are in the social
48:05physical hierarchy and be like ah that's
48:07who my candidacy group is. I squint
48:10really hard. I'm going to find that
48:11person attractive. Maybe I think that
48:13does happen for some people. What I
48:15would surmise
48:17is that reality is mostly much grimmer
48:19than that. Um, we know this from lots of
48:23dating uh dating app studies, which by
48:26the way, if you ever looked into it,
48:27there are studies now with millions of
48:28people in in the sample groups. Like
48:30that's crazy that you don't even need
48:32stats for that. You're like, which bar
48:33is higher? You know, like statistical
48:35significance is eight zeros and [ __ ]
48:38Um, and what we get from that is that
48:42tall, handsome, wealthy men that have
48:44some ability to be social, uh, they eat,
48:48bro. They eat. I'm talking about they're
48:50getting almost all the hot women. Don't
48:52you smirk at me. You look like you have
48:54real full belly. You know what I'm
48:56saying?
48:56>> The fact that you're saying they eat
48:58>> is Come on. Am I street yet? Was that
49:00cool? Am I cool? So, uh, I hang around
49:03with pieces of [ __ ] that talk like that
49:05all the time. my friends and my wife.
49:07So, um,
49:10and women that are, uh, super super
49:13attractive, they just get cart blanch,
49:14pick of the litter. And if you look at
49:17the bottom 10% of attractiveness for
49:19both sexes, you get uh, two things. One
49:23uh, is probability that you're very
49:25successful with the other sex is or with
49:28whichever sex you like is low. Much
49:30lower, not zero. Of course, to your
49:32point, they find each other. The thing
49:34is that the general software for
49:37determining attractiveness is really um
49:41varied at the at the edges, but at its
49:43core it's universal. And so most of us
49:46think roughly the same things are pretty
49:48attractive um no matter what. Like like
49:50think of Disney princesses like they're
49:52all kind of shaped the same. Not
49:55identically, but very similarly. I mean,
49:57part of it though is like hyper racist
49:59because the people who were drawing them
50:01only had one idea of beauty in their
50:03mind, right? Like where did Disney come
50:06from?
50:07>> You know, Disney is reflecting cultural
50:08universals. Um,
50:10>> yeah. From the time where it was deemed
50:12as one race was specifically more
50:14beautiful.
50:14>> If you like analyze exclusively black
50:16men in Africa, they choose almost the
50:20exact same silhouette that white dudes
50:21in Norway choose as maximally
50:23attractive, except 10 to 15% thicker.
50:28What if you weigh 400 lb, Mike?
50:30>> What about skin color?
50:31>> When you have a giant Oh, wait. We're
50:32talking about the shape. Just shape.
50:34Skin color. You're totally correct. But
50:36it also works both ways. Almost every
50:38pale white woman wants to look like JLo.
50:40And almost every darkened black woman
50:41wants to look like JLo. Really? The the
50:43Hispanics one. If you ever Google
50:45Latinas, anything else after really, oh
50:49boy, don't they look great? Uh on a So,
50:53so let me make my final big point here.
50:56to answer your question.
50:58There are realities in the world that
51:00are serendipitous and beautiful. There
51:02are realities in the world that are a
51:03mixed bag. There are other realities in
51:05the world that are ugly, real ugly, but
51:08they're true. And we have to face them
51:10as adults and be like, they're true. And
51:12one of the realities is that if you most
51:15people have the same basic software for
51:18analyzing who's attractive and who's not
51:19and ranking them basics on the on the
51:21edges they fray and there are exceptions
51:23100%. But when you are a one out of 10
51:27to most people, what you want in your
51:30heart of hearts for your partner is for
51:32them to be a 10. [ __ ] at least an
51:34eight, you know what I'm saying? At
51:35least a six for the love of God and
51:38maybe a four. But you almost certainly
51:40don't want a one. And so the idea that
51:42there's this everyone just pairs is in
51:45contradiction to evolutionary psychology
51:47and to lived experience of people, to
51:49primatology, by the way, and to almost
51:51every interaction we've ever come to
51:53know. there is a competition for the
51:56most attractive people and it's not even
51:58a slot hierarchical. It's like if you
51:59look like this, I don't care where you
52:01rank. I like that look. And if you don't
52:03look like this, if you look very far a
52:05field from this, again, 400 lb and uh
52:09androgynous obesity. There just aren't
52:11that many people that are into that
52:13look. And if you're a woman who's 400 lb
52:15with androgynous obesity, you don't
52:18necessarily look at like 400 lb truck
52:21drivers. God bless them. They're
52:22wonderful people who have also
52:25androgynous obesity and you're like
52:26that's my man like the Shrek idea like
52:29Lady Shrek and Shrek Shrek and they're
52:31like oh like this what they like. The
52:33reality is if you're that woman you
52:34probably read romance novels with Fabio
52:36on the cover or some mother that looks
52:38like you and that's what they want.
52:40That's what most people want. And if you
52:42were like hey lady cart blanch how do
52:44you want to look? Turn the magazine to
52:46JLo or Scarlett Johansson or someone
52:48else and be like like that. And it's
52:49just not rocket science. That's how most
52:51people want to look. That's what most
52:53people want to interact with. So the
52:54aesthetic revolution to me in a big part
52:56is about like there are so many just
52:58unbelievable people in bodies and faces
53:01and hairlines and everything that just
53:03don't add up. Like a lot of hot people
53:05too are just like you've met lots of hot
53:07people that are just like no offense,
53:09everyone's on their own journey. Total
53:10dog [ __ ] on the inside and you're like
53:12you're like she's like do you want to
53:14like go on date number two? And you're
53:15like I would pay really good money to
53:16never see you again at the very least
53:18talk to you. And that mismatch is
53:21tragic. I think that everyone who is
53:24just simply born into a body and face
53:26and physique that just doesn't add up as
53:27far as attraction, um I think life for
53:31them would be really different. Maybe
53:34not ecstatically happy to your point,
53:36but better better than it is if they
53:39just made the outside match the inside.
53:42And yes, I do it. It really is skin deep
53:44because all of a sudden if you get uh
53:46you go on a lifting journey, you do your
53:47diet right, some stuff we could talk
53:49about next maybe because that's mostly
53:50what the book is about and then get all
53:52the cosmetic surgeries and all the you
53:54know eventual age reversal genetic
53:56modification blah blah blah and you
53:58finally look like whatever you wanted to
53:59look like. Then people talk to you and
54:02they engage with you in a discourse that
54:04they never would have engaged with you
54:05before and you get romance and all that.
54:07You never change. The real you is always
54:09in there, quote unquote, but it was
54:11wrapped up in a in a gift pack that
54:13didn't look appealing to most people.
54:15And I think, should we work on our inner
54:17selves? Yes. Should we work on the
54:19rapping? Yeah, why not, man? And people
54:21that tell you the rapping is overrated
54:23are unfortunately fall of one of two
54:26camps. Unattractive people that coping
54:28and really attractive people that have
54:30just never seen the other side before.
54:32It's like a billionaire's inheritance
54:33son be like, I don't know what people in
54:35Africa keep complaining about with their
54:36water supply. Mine's fine. Like,
54:38>> what about people who feel it's taboo to
54:40say they like something that is perhaps
54:42deemed society unattractive?
54:46>> Give me an example.
54:47>> Um, people who are overweight, carrying
54:52300 lb overweight, they say, "Oh, when I
54:55go on social media, the amount of men
54:56that message me is wild." But they are
54:59embarrassed by it because society deems
55:02people who are overweight as
55:03unattractive. So they feel like if they
55:05were to message me publicly, it would be
55:07taboo.
55:09>> What do you mean message publicly? Like
55:11comment?
55:11>> Yeah, like they won't com comment on
55:13their stuff, but they'll message them
55:14privately saying, "I'm really interested
55:15in you."
55:16>> Some of those guys are dogs, man. They
55:17they comment, too.
55:19>> You've seen
55:19>> But I'm saying that's a thing that
55:21people say. Again, I'm pointing out just
55:23from a
55:24>> That's definitely a thing, too. 100%.
55:27The reason why I think of society
55:29playing such a big role here and
55:31magazine culture, like if I think back
55:33to the shape magazine and Vogue telling
55:35people to just do champagne and
55:37cigarette diet and all all of these
55:39ridiculous things to just try and
55:43weaponize beauty in a way to make
55:45themselves feel better
55:47>> and make who feel better?
55:50>> The people who are already physically
55:51attractive at baseline. And the reason
55:54why there's a theory why that could play
55:57out is because there is some sort of
56:00distribution from a bell curve
56:02standpoint about who is attractive by
56:04these standards that we're discussing
56:06here aesthetically.
56:07And the people who are on the tail end
56:09of the curve are rare.
56:11>> Mhm.
56:12>> So they know that's rare. They dangle it
56:15in front of people as a form of rarity.
56:16Just like how if there's a rare Ferrari,
56:18I really want it. If there's a rare
56:20watch, I really want it. if there's a
56:22special edition coming out, I really
56:24want it. So, there's plenty of we even
56:27see this play out in the social media
56:29world, Instagram influencers who talk
56:31about being lifestyle coaches and here's
56:35how to get a waistline like mine. Here's
56:38how you could get my Brazilian butt
56:40going just like your uh just like you
56:43can. and they're doing it because it
56:45makes them appreciate what they have and
56:48they know that
56:51they got theirs either gifted to them or
56:54they bought it and yet they're still
56:56dangling it. So basically they create
56:59this artificial demand just how Hermes
57:01does when they only release a certain
57:03number of Birkkins for example
57:05>> and everyone's like, "Oh, I want the
57:06Birkin." Is the Birkin that much more
57:08beautiful than any other bag? Well, it's
57:10limited. It's it's people want it. there
57:13is demand for it culturally and then
57:15we've created this artificial demand for
57:17a product that perhaps isn't any more
57:19special than any any other person
57:21doesn't do anything different
57:22>> just like how a person that
57:24aesthetically could be a 10 or a one
57:27they could both be amazing humans or
57:29both be terrible humans it doesn't say
57:31anything just by looking at them
57:32aesthetically and I think about how in
57:35talking about these aesthetics we could
57:37take people in the little diagram you
57:40created and go into the diagram of where
57:42someone feels is great, but perhaps
57:43aesthetically is on the low scale. And
57:46by having this conversation, by talking
57:48about in the way that we are, by looking
57:50at the magazines and social media the
57:52way that they value a certain type of
57:55look, and now they suddenly fall into
57:58the category of being unhappy and they
58:01feel like they need whatever it is that
58:04the next plastic surgery wave, AI wave
58:06is going to be trying to sell them. Are
58:08we just creating consumers for beauty in
58:10that in that way?
58:11That's definitely a factor. If I had to
58:14rough estimate, I would say that is a
58:17roughly one to nine relationship with
58:2010% of the variance of how people feel
58:23what they should look like explained by
58:24cultural forces and uh 90% explained by
58:28deep evolutionary roughly static forces
58:31that tell you look like this or you look
58:33like that. Um and it doesn't work so
58:36well on the extremes. So, if you look in
58:39in a way that most people think is not
58:41great, um it's profoundly difficult to
58:44drum up demand for yourself, you there's
58:47certainly some Instagram profiles of
58:49people that look, let's say, very
58:50different charitably and they're just
58:51doing amazing, right? And people message
58:53them all the time. The thing is like um
58:56most of the people that don't look that
58:58great, they don't get very many messages
59:00and an even random decently attractive
59:03girl gets dozens all the goddamn time.
59:06Even though she's not dangling [ __ ] she
59:07just like posted her and her dogs and
59:08it's like, "Hey, what are you up to? I
59:10love you." They get that [ __ ] all the
59:12time. There's a massive real asymmetry
59:15and the amount of beneficial attention
59:16that they get. Now, also there's
59:18negative attention, too. Sure, everyone
59:19gets some kind of negative attention,
59:21but it sure is nice to get negative
59:22attention born out of jealousy. Uh, like
59:25guys will call girls the sword. S L U T.
59:29I don't know if we're allowed to say
59:30that. Does YouTube detect like speaking
59:34dogs? P whoop you.
59:35>> Yeah, there we go. Uh and uh then you
59:40can say like, "Oh, he's just jealous,
59:41right?" Uh is a very different thing to
59:44get criticized for something you also
59:45agree with the critic about. Like you're
59:47ugly and you know you're ugly. That
59:50hurts way way deeper than like, "Oh,
59:52that guy's just coping." And so there is
59:55to some extent, not to underweight it,
59:56there are definitely cultural
59:58variations. There are historic
59:59variations. But if you look at the
1:00:01variations, you're unlikely to find a
1:00:04lot of like radical discordance from
1:00:05just average. So for example, you look
1:00:07at like what the like pre- maji
1:00:09restoration Japan's most attractive kind
1:00:12of girl looked like. Yeah, she could get
1:00:14it today, man. She could get it from
1:00:15almost anybody. Little 110 lb thing with
1:00:18whatever little little body. Yeah, hell
1:00:21yeah. Line them up. Where in culture do
1:00:23we see grotesqually hideous, wildly
1:00:27overweight, and not the fun big hips and
1:00:29ass way, but the big gut way? Where do
1:00:31we see those women being vaunted as like
1:00:34the most strictly a conversation about
1:00:36weight?
1:00:37>> No,
1:00:38>> but that seems to be like the prime
1:00:39example here because if we
1:00:40>> weight's a big deal,
1:00:41>> let's remove the weight as an example
1:00:42and talk about height in men, right?
1:00:44Because that's a factor that's been
1:00:45studied.
1:00:47I like in a child who let's say is
1:00:50lacking growth hormone,
1:00:52>> we worry like oh we should supplement
1:00:54growth hormone in this child because
1:00:55they have a deficiency and we worry
1:00:57about them
1:00:58>> uh developing a very short stature which
1:01:01could be intervened with and helped with
1:01:02by giving them growth hormone. But and
1:01:05at the same time, if we had, let's say,
1:01:08some knowledge and we say, "Oh, uh, this
1:01:10child is going to grow up 56 versus
1:01:14six." We're not going to be like, "Oh my
1:01:15god, by all means, get him to six cuz
1:01:18that's going to change his life."
1:01:20>> You will, though,
1:01:22>> but that's the question. Will it or are
1:01:25you studying after the fact of judging
1:01:28it and putting this out into the world?
1:01:31>> Oh, I'm not judging it. women that say
1:01:33yes or no when you ask them on dates
1:01:34judge it and they and you can see this
1:01:36on okaycid studies and all that stuff
1:01:38you know like so I don't remember the
1:01:40figure offhand somebody correct me in
1:01:41the comments but I think if for every
1:01:43extra inch of height a man has in order
1:01:46to become equally as attractive at that
1:01:47lower height he has to make like 50 or
1:01:50$100,000 more dollars a year or
1:01:52something totally insane to
1:01:54overcompensate that so you you don't
1:01:58have to tell a 5'6 kid like hey kid you
1:02:00got a real short end of the literally a
1:02:02little bit. You don't have to say that.
1:02:04That's toxic. It promotes the wrong kind
1:02:05of attitude. But if he was like, "Hey,
1:02:08is me being taller going to make me more
1:02:11likely to girls that I like say yes to
1:02:13me when I ask him out on dates?"
1:02:14Categorically, the answer is yes. And if
1:02:16you don't tell them that, you are
1:02:18foisting upon them a great illusion that
1:02:20does them no good. You're trying to
1:02:22boost their self-esteem by giving them
1:02:23the big lie. And the big lie is like,
1:02:25"Well, look, height doesn't matter. The
1:02:27depth of your voice doesn't matter. Your
1:02:28hairline doesn't matter. Your income
1:02:29doesn't matter. your looks don't matter.
1:02:31After a while, you're like, why why the
1:02:32hell do people like anyone ever at all?
1:02:34Uh, and the reality is all these things
1:02:36matter and they're true and they're real
1:02:38and they're profound. They matter in
1:02:40terms of getting variety, but does it
1:02:43matter on a scale long term of a life of
1:02:46happiness of finding a partner period?
1:02:50>> Do we see profound loneliness in someone
1:02:52who's 2 in shorter?
1:02:53>> Yeah. God, yeah. Yeah. Massive
1:02:56loneliness in physically unattractive
1:02:58women. massive loneliness. There's this
1:03:00whole thing. It's called incels, right?
1:03:01These are real people. If you are male
1:03:04and you are like below 5' three, the
1:03:06probability that you get any any attra
1:03:11to go on a date with you is teeny tiny.
1:03:15As if you were 6'3, it would be like way
1:03:17way way way bigger. I don't personally
1:03:19give a about height at all. I think I
1:03:21was in my late 20s when I learned that
1:03:23height is statistically attraction
1:03:24factor for women. I literally just
1:03:25didn't know that my whole life. It
1:03:26couldn't care less. So, didn't that help
1:03:28you not knowing?
1:03:31>> Uh,
1:03:32>> because now you're telling everyone.
1:03:34>> Yeah.
1:03:35>> So, what if like when you were 12, you
1:03:37heard this conversation and I'm like, if
1:03:39you don't grow, your life's going to
1:03:41suck. Would that have helped you to get
1:03:43to where you are today?
1:03:44>> So, that statement right there is so
1:03:46exaggeratory that it borders on being
1:03:48false.
1:03:49>> In what sense? You just said
1:03:50>> it's not going to suck. It's going to be
1:03:52worse than if you were taller. And then
1:03:55they go, then they go,
1:03:56>> but there's so many other variables.
1:03:57Totally. Exactly. Life is so they go,
1:03:59okay, okay, I'm not winning it on
1:04:00height. You're like, nah, you're not.
1:04:02So, I better like work extra hard at
1:04:04school and maybe get into some hobbies
1:04:06and really push some other way so that I
1:04:07can have all these very pretty girls
1:04:09saying yes to me. And then that's not
1:04:11the end be all to life.
1:04:13>> Said by someone who eats a lot,
1:04:15>> right? It's not ideal that I'm the one
1:04:17having this conversation, but
1:04:18scientifically
1:04:20>> that's not the end all to be all to
1:04:22happiness. If that was, then the people
1:04:24who just date pretty women would
1:04:26statistically have the highest happiness
1:04:28flow.
1:04:28>> It's a part of it. It's a part of it.
1:04:30And uh let me give you another example.
1:04:32Uh how do you pick an excellent partner?
1:04:35There's actually one true thing about
1:04:37this is you get to know lots of people.
1:04:40And only through getting to know and
1:04:41dating lots of people can you ever
1:04:43possibly tell what you like in a person.
1:04:46because it's all pretend until you're
1:04:48like sitting on the couch with him and
1:04:49you're 6 months into dating him and
1:04:50you're like, "Okay, they look great.
1:04:53There's a huge mismatch on hobbies and
1:04:55interests. Next girlfriend, I'm going to
1:04:57make sure there's not that mismatch."
1:04:59You got to sample. You got to sample.
1:05:01And if your sample size is one person
1:05:04ever said yes to on your date, the
1:05:07probability that you settle and end up
1:05:09with them is higher. And the probability
1:05:11that that person is much closer to your
1:05:14ideal match is way way lower. And thus
1:05:16the probability that you have a not so
1:05:19ideal relationship is also uh way lower.
1:05:22>> I don't know if that's true because if
1:05:24you look at grocery store shelves and
1:05:26you see 10 options for ketchup, you have
1:05:29more options than two. But if you had
1:05:32two, statistically, you're probably
1:05:34happier with your choice because you're
1:05:35like, "Oh, well, I I know I don't like
1:05:37that one. I like this one." But when
1:05:38there's 10, you're like, "Oh, well, do I
1:05:40want this one or do I want that one?"
1:05:42It's like the the mantra of uh some
1:05:44options are better than none. More
1:05:45options aren't better than some.
1:05:48>> That's true. And uh in an acute sense,
1:05:51if just standing there and you're
1:05:52overwhelmed with options, but if you try
1:05:54a bunch of different ketchups all the
1:05:55time, eventually you're going to be
1:05:57like, "This is amazing. Where did this
1:05:59come from?" You're like, "Oh, they make
1:06:00it in Denmark. Do you want a box so you
1:06:01can have a lot of it?" Yep. Now, every
1:06:03time you go to another restaurant, they
1:06:04don't have that ketchup. They're like,
1:06:05"You're not eating ketchup." They're
1:06:06like, "I don't [ __ ] with any ketchup.
1:06:07that's not my [ __ ] You're like, "How
1:06:08did you find that out?" Well, I tried a
1:06:09lot of ketchups. If ketchup is really
1:06:11meaningful to you, and I think long-term
1:06:13committed relationships are probably
1:06:14really meaningful, you're going to want
1:06:16a bigger sample size just mathematically
1:06:18enhances the probability that you will
1:06:20get the outcome that you're looking
1:06:21through two ways. One, the chance that
1:06:22you'll randomly find a person that's
1:06:23your person goes up literally scale
1:06:25linearly to how many people you date.
1:06:27And two, how you know yourself as a
1:06:29person in a relationship is a big deal.
1:06:31Who you are in a relationship is a
1:06:32little bit different than who you are
1:06:33just casually. You might not know who
1:06:35you are as a relationship. might not
1:06:36even know what you want if you never
1:06:38tried many relationships. You're going
1:06:40to have a really [ __ ] sample size and
1:06:41you're not going to be able to pick a
1:06:43person as well as if you had lots of
1:06:45people to choose from. So that doesn't
1:06:48mean that someone can't meet and then
1:06:49after two dates like this is it, this is
1:06:51it, this is it, we're good. That happens
1:06:53100%. But what I want for people is
1:06:56let's say u I get to know someone who's
1:06:58a co-orker and she just looks like this
1:07:00the wrong look, right? Just the wrong
1:07:01look. And I know her cuz I work with her
1:07:03all the time. She's so goddamn beautiful
1:07:05on the inside. She's 28. She's 29. She's
1:07:0830. No one. No one. No one. She wants
1:07:10marriage. She wants children. I want her
1:07:13to look like she wants to look so that
1:07:16she can start dating people uh in higher
1:07:20numbers and much more importantly in
1:07:22higher quality bandwidth and then really
1:07:24get pick of the litter because she's so
1:07:27goddamn wonderful. I want her to have
1:07:29the best. I want her to have something
1:07:30that's ungated by her physical
1:07:32appearance. And physical appearance is a
1:07:34problem we can just solve. We just solve
1:07:37it.
1:07:38>> So why don't we solve it?
1:07:40>> I think the issue becomes again with the
1:07:42rarity aspect. I think the reason is we
1:07:44found a hierarchy with this genetic
1:07:47distribution of looks and we've tied it
1:07:51to something culturally the same way
1:07:53that like there was an improvement in
1:07:56bags over the years. Some bags became
1:07:58sturdier, the materials changed, there's
1:08:00innovation, and then we've gotten to the
1:08:02point where like, let's just release
1:08:04less of a certain one, and that one's
1:08:05going to be special. So, once everyone
1:08:07starts looking the same aesthetically,
1:08:10there'll be a new way.
1:08:12>> I didn't say the same.
1:08:13>> Well, not the same meaning the same
1:08:14level
1:08:15>> of whatever it is, there's a huge
1:08:17diversity in the same level.
1:08:18>> There'll be a new hierarchy that forms.
1:08:21>> Oh, totally. But um everyone
1:08:23>> which is why focusing on intrinsic is
1:08:25way more valuable because irrespective
1:08:28of what happens in the world whatever
1:08:30the cultural norm whatever lip size is
1:08:32popular in a given moment whatever suit
1:08:35style is it doesn't matter.
1:08:38>> So like it's irrespective of where
1:08:40cultural norms shift or biological norms
1:08:42shift because those two adapt.
1:08:44>> So cultural norms also affect people's
1:08:47uh assessments of intrinsic value. If
1:08:49you were in the culture of the 1940s and
1:08:5150s in the United States, complacency as
1:08:52a female would be culturally very very
1:08:54high regard. Independence and
1:08:56ruthlessness like my wife has would be
1:08:58like, "Ugh, she sucks." That stuff also
1:09:00changes. So you could spend a lot of
1:09:01time upgrading your internals only to
1:09:03find out that there's a cultural shift
1:09:04and your internals are now in
1:09:06>> cultural don't matter. You're talking
1:09:08about societal successes versus internal
1:09:10happiness and fulfillment, joy, more
1:09:13lasting.
1:09:14>> None of this is to argue against
1:09:15internal work. But I think arguing even
1:09:19to the degree that you're arguing for
1:09:21aesthetics actually hurts the internal
1:09:23work.
1:09:24>> Why? Because the focus shifts. You have
1:09:27limited focus just like you have limited
1:09:29time in life. So if you're going to be
1:09:31talking about focus on what you want to
1:09:33look like, focus on changing your
1:09:36aesthetic.
1:09:38>> Your time is limited. Your focus is
1:09:40limited. Your focus is now on something
1:09:42that's everchanging.
1:09:44that's delegated by perhaps whoever is
1:09:47at the head of Hollywood in a given
1:09:48moment.
1:09:49>> That's not how any of that works, by the
1:09:50way. I'm sorry. So, Hollywood can't cart
1:09:53blanch choose what the trend is. The
1:09:55trend is usually contained in a very
1:09:57small box of what is acceptable to look
1:09:59like attractive wise and then there are
1:10:01slight variations that bounce around
1:10:02with there based on a bunch of inputs
1:10:04and some decision by people to front
1:10:07certain people. But there's all sorts of
1:10:08people at Hollywood, they're like, "Ah,
1:10:09here's the new hot girl." And she says,
1:10:10"No one gives a shit." And there's
1:10:12sometimes where like the new look is
1:10:14kind of wacky and they're like, "I guess
1:10:15this is who's popular. Go put her on
1:10:17stage or whatever." There's no one at
1:10:18the top deciding. Magazines almost never
1:10:20decide what's attractive. They really
1:10:22just really good at writing trends and
1:10:23sometimes not even so good at writing
1:10:25trends. Um so I don't think it's nearly
1:10:27a top- down hierarchical system as as it
1:10:30is. Uh um classically we're educated to
1:10:33believe that it is. Um, many people go
1:10:35around thinking that the reason we have
1:10:36beauty standards is because the
1:10:38magazines made made like just just
1:10:40randomly propped up like skinny girls or
1:10:42whatever. That's it's 90% wrong, 10%
1:10:45right. It absolutely matters, but to a
1:10:47very very tiny percent. Most of it is
1:10:49deeply biological, deeply ingrained, and
1:10:52is really not cultural at all. Um, and
1:10:55and that stuff some people lack in such
1:10:57a huge regard that they can make and
1:11:00should make all of the upgrades in their
1:11:01own brain of how they feel about
1:11:02themselves. But how you feel about
1:11:04yourself only gets you so far. It sure
1:11:06[ __ ] gets you internal happiness. But it
1:11:08can leave you bereft of meaningful human
1:11:10interactions like romantic interactions
1:11:13like acceptance in a deep way by someone
1:11:15who's assessing your body and face and
1:11:17telling you you're wonderfully beautiful
1:11:18that you just can't get unless somebody
1:11:20else thinks you're beautiful. And no
1:11:22amount of pizzazz and rz is going to
1:11:24cross the line with everyone. And that
1:11:26if you actually look um to use a term
1:11:29you used earlier not broken, it's going
1:11:31to be a real thing. Now, here's the
1:11:32thing. If you tell young people
1:11:36the only thing that matters is how you
1:11:38look, and if you just get these
1:11:40surgeries and these genetic upgrades,
1:11:42your life's going to be serene. You're
1:11:44selling people a lie. That's a stupid
1:11:47like Hollywood transformation lie and
1:11:49like 13 going on 30 type of [ __ ] It's
1:11:51wrong. Of course, it's wrong. But if you
1:11:53tell them, hey, um, work on your inner
1:11:55self and beauty externally doesn't
1:11:57matter. It's the same kind of lie in
1:11:59reverse. They both matter and I like to
1:12:02treat people as an
1:12:04>> when you say they matter. What's your
1:12:05definition of matter?
1:12:06>> The matter to you and how awesome of a
1:12:08life you're going to live and are you
1:12:09going to get. So how you feel dayto-day?
1:12:13Like you're writing in your diary, you
1:12:14know, I feel great in here. And the
1:12:16other one is like, do I have a family?
1:12:18Do I have people around me that are
1:12:19awesome? Do I get to go to dance clubs
1:12:22and like walk around and dance with
1:12:23people? Like isn't it fun going to a
1:12:25dance club and just dancing people? Oh,
1:12:27for sure. But what if it's for me and I
1:12:29don't look like it's for me?
1:12:30>> I'm sure you'll find a place where you
1:12:32can dance and people will find you
1:12:33awesome if you're a great dancer.
1:12:34>> Why do I have to find a place, a one out
1:12:36of 50, a one out of a 100 place where
1:12:38they
1:12:39>> Because everyone is doing this.
1:12:40Everyone's finding their place. No, no,
1:12:42no. Attractive people are are welcome
1:12:44everywhere except for one in 50 places
1:12:47where they look too too vanilla.
1:12:50>> Yes. Or it functions the other way and
1:12:52there could be predators that are
1:12:54negatively impacting them. certain girls
1:12:57don't feel comfortable walking on the
1:12:58streets because of the way that they
1:13:00look. So like there's variables that
1:13:02shift in life and like why we're
1:13:04hyperfocused on that variables
1:13:06interesting I guess is biological I
1:13:08would say
1:13:10>> when you say biological what are you
1:13:11looking at
1:13:12>> it's um do you remember the first time
1:13:14you were attracted to female breasts?
1:13:17>> First time. No.
1:13:18>> Okay. Sweet. I do. Um it's not a thing.
1:13:22I thought you're going to start telling
1:13:23me a breastfeeding story, right?
1:13:25>> You think it was feeding related? How
1:13:26dare you? Well, it was. How did you know
1:13:28that?
1:13:28>> Because you said you like to eat.
1:13:29>> Pause the interview. Oh, literally. I
1:13:31see. Well, it's drinking. Really?
1:13:32>> Okay.
1:13:33>> Comes out as a solid. You're like, I I
1:13:35think you need to go to the doctor. I
1:13:36don't think it's supposed to be solid.
1:13:38>> Um, it uh Okay. When I was Oh, jeez. I
1:13:44was probably 10. Um, one of my
1:13:46acquaintances at a Jewish community
1:13:48center camp in the locker room for the
1:13:51pool was like, "Hey, Mike, do you like
1:13:53girls yet?" And I was like, "Gee whiz, I
1:13:56sure do, mister." And in exactly that
1:13:58voice, 1950s kid voice. And he was like,
1:14:02"Oh, um, you know, like tell me about
1:14:06like what kind of girls you like." And I
1:14:07was like, "Well, they have to be real
1:14:08special, you know." And he was like,
1:14:09"You don't like girls yet. In a few
1:14:11years, you're going to like every girl."
1:14:13And I was like, "No, I won't." because
1:14:15I'm special. And he's like, "Okay, kid."
1:14:16And then like when I turned like 12 or
1:14:1813, whatever the hell, when I like saw
1:14:20it for the first time, I was like, "Oh
1:14:22[ __ ] I do like most girls at this point
1:14:26in that way." It was not something that
1:14:29seemingly came from the societal ether.
1:14:32We actually know it doesn't come from
1:14:33the societal ether. Um, if you give your
1:14:36dog a toy, he has no other dogs to look
1:14:39at. He's going to grab it and he's going
1:14:40to do this with it. Completely
1:14:42genetically programmed behavior. It's to
1:14:44um disassemble the spinal cord.
1:14:46>> Motion again.
1:14:48>> It actually hurts my head a little bit
1:14:49to do that. But for you, I did it twice.
1:14:52>> So, uh I have other motions I do with my
1:14:53head which you might find in private
1:14:55even better.
1:14:56>> Uh forward and back ones, Mike, in case
1:14:58you were filling the blanks, but also
1:14:59side to side. I I've stopped. I swear.
1:15:01Okay. So there are many many things
1:15:04about our human nature which are
1:15:06biologically driven and biologically
1:15:08expressed and they do not require
1:15:09consent and they take some modification
1:15:11for culture but only at the margins. And
1:15:14so in the same way that nobody tells you
1:15:17like you're going to like breasts. It's
1:15:18not like you were reading a magazine and
1:15:20you were like oh current literary
1:15:22criticism says I should like spherical
1:15:24objects. Well here we go. It's guttural.
1:15:26It's deep. It's automatic. That's how
1:15:28most people's assessment of
1:15:29attractiveness at large is. And it's
1:15:31something you program into people, which
1:15:33is how cultural universals are
1:15:34discovered. Like why in God's name is a
1:15:37girl that is considered highly
1:15:38attractive in India also very likely to
1:15:40be considered very highly attractive
1:15:42literally anywhere else. I mean Indian
1:15:44girls are gorgeous. That's not here or
1:15:46there. But godamn how how these cultures
1:15:49like this is also true in pre-industrial
1:15:50times. There's no communication between
1:15:52cultures. And so what is considered
1:15:54attractive is considered attractive
1:15:56mostly for very well understood
1:15:57biological reasons. uh detection of
1:15:59fertility, health, youth, etc. And it is
1:16:02one of these things that if you have it,
1:16:04dope, but then you have almost nothing
1:16:06else and all of your points completely
1:16:08apply. Like the rest of life is like,
1:16:10okay, you don't have happiness, you're
1:16:12just hot. You have to deal with a bunch
1:16:13of [ __ ] and predators and people
1:16:15DMing you and people making it seem like
1:16:17they're interested in up here, but
1:16:19they're really interested in here and
1:16:20here. 100%. But if you are the opposite
1:16:23of hot, if you are very undesirabl
1:16:26looking, the stack is sole against you
1:16:29in so many ways that fixing that problem
1:16:33just fixes the problem and allows you to
1:16:37enter into the conversation for the
1:16:38kinds of problems everyone else has to
1:16:40deal with. Problems you also deal with,
1:16:42but you also deal with this extra
1:16:43problem. I don't want people to have to
1:16:44deal with this extra problem. It's a
1:16:45solve problem. Let me give you an
1:16:46example. Dental work. You know, everyone
1:16:49used to have teeth back in the day. M.
1:16:51So, we fix people teeth. Uh, why why do
1:16:53we do that? I mean, you could say like,
1:16:55look, like society tells you people have
1:16:57perfect teeth. That's not true. Snaggle
1:16:59tooth, you're totally great. Like, it's
1:17:00dope. Or you could just take your
1:17:028-year-old who has messed up teeth and
1:17:04the year 2025 and be like, "We're just
1:17:06going to get these fixed. We're just
1:17:07going to fix them."
1:17:08>> Well, there's health benefits to getting
1:17:09them fixed.
1:17:10>> There are so many health benefits to
1:17:12losing a substantial amount of
1:17:13adoposity. Well, if you were telling me
1:17:15the reason that you want people
1:17:16aesthetically to change is cuz it's good
1:17:17for their metabolic health, that's one
1:17:20conversation. You telling me that they
1:17:21have to stack against them otherwise is
1:17:23a different conversation.
1:17:24>> Sure. But um most people don't get kids
1:17:27teeth fixed due to the health benefits.
1:17:29They get them fixed the aesthetic
1:17:30benefits because the kids don't want to
1:17:32grow up making people getting people
1:17:34make fun of them for their nasty teeth.
1:17:36Most of the the way braces are
1:17:38constructed is from an aesthetic
1:17:39perspective. I mean, your teeth are
1:17:41still functional. How many kids get
1:17:42braces in non-functional teeth? like
1:17:44very few. That's an orthodontics
1:17:45problem. That's like one in 10. Most
1:17:47people get braces. Your teeth are just
1:17:48misaligned and you want to look better.
1:17:50>> Well, because if they misaligned at
1:17:52childhood, by the time you're in
1:17:54adulthood, your jaw changes, impacts
1:17:56breathing, eating, etc.
1:17:59>> This much unless you
1:18:00>> We got to be careful to not come outside
1:18:02of our fields.
1:18:03>> Totally. Totally. But like
1:18:05>> we're already doing it by having this
1:18:06conversation.
1:18:07>> For sure. For sure. But um uh aesthetics
1:18:10matter. And they matter deeply to people
1:18:12because even though it would be cool if
1:18:14we all switched off our aesthetic
1:18:15comment, like I would do it instantly.
1:18:16Like if I could just switch that part of
1:18:18my brain off and I would stop appraising
1:18:20other people as attractive or not or
1:18:21whatever on the spectrum. If everyone
1:18:22could do it, if kids could do it, it'd
1:18:23be wonderful. That's not the reality of
1:18:25the world at all. There's another
1:18:27argument here. Uh people will say like,
1:18:29you know, inequality, right, is a
1:18:31problem. Inequality is actually not a
1:18:32problem. It's straight up not a problem
1:18:34in in a very narrow lens of analysis.
1:18:36The only problem is how do the the
1:18:38poorest people in society live? like
1:18:39what is their standard of living?
1:18:40Because anything north of that basic
1:18:41needs is just a good irrelevant. We
1:18:43already discussed it, right? And so, but
1:18:44still people uh because we're animals
1:18:46that are hierarchical have kind of like
1:18:48a little bit of a problem with people
1:18:49making a gazillion dollars and other
1:18:51people making much less. And you can
1:18:53tell them, hey, inequality doesn't
1:18:54matter. That's probably a little bit
1:18:55easier to intellectualize, but still
1:18:57insanely difficult to do in a much much
1:18:59deeper way. You can tell people, look,
1:19:01how you look doesn't matter, but it does
1:19:04because everyone thinks it does and they
1:19:06think it does. And they can't just
1:19:07brainwash themselves into thinking it
1:19:09doesn't. That's much easier than done.
1:19:11>> You're you're functioning on two
1:19:12extremes like this false dichotomy.
1:19:14Either you tell them it doesn't matter
1:19:15at all or you tell them that it matters
1:19:18so significantly that they have the deck
1:19:19stack against them. And I don't think
1:19:21it's either of those. And I think it's
1:19:23going to be a spectrum. And that
1:19:24spectrum is largely influenced by their
1:19:27own perceived notion of whatever that
1:19:30stack is.
1:19:31>> The dating thing is not influenced
1:19:33hardly at all by what their perception
1:19:34is. If someone feels super demotivated
1:19:38by the way they look and they're not
1:19:40actively seeking other people's
1:19:42companionship. Oh yeah, it is.
1:19:45>> As a male, yeah. But as a female, most
1:19:46of the [ __ ] comes to you and you don't
1:19:47have to go looking for it. So as a
1:19:49female, if you feel demotivated and
1:19:50you're hot as your DMs are full of that
1:19:52[ __ ] If you're feeling really motivated
1:19:54and hot as your DMs are still full of
1:19:55[ __ ]
1:19:56>> You're saying on the lower end of the
1:19:57aesthetic?
1:19:58>> Yeah. On the lower end of the aesthetic,
1:19:59you could feel all sorts of ways about
1:20:01how awesome you are and the DMs are
1:20:02still empty as or they're full of just
1:20:04perverts and people who don't want to go
1:20:05any further than you and just sending
1:20:06you a pick to be completely honest.
1:20:08>> Yeah, I don't know if that's true. I
1:20:09feel like we're jumping to a lot of
1:20:11>> How do you know that it's true?
1:20:13>> I mean,
1:20:13>> I wish we had a evolutionary
1:20:15>> I wish we could bring up Yeah, sure. You
1:20:18feel free uh to get one of those people.
1:20:20Um it's to me true on two different
1:20:22levels. One is a level of not some
1:20:26personal but mostly vicarious experience
1:20:29talking to people that were in their
1:20:32younger years substantially
1:20:33unattractive. You get a taste of what
1:20:35life really is like. Um
1:20:38lots of grains of salt in there.
1:20:40>> Sure.
1:20:41>> Yeah.
1:20:41>> Um
1:20:42>> and also on the statistical level of we
1:20:44know how people interact with people
1:20:45that are unattractive and it's different
1:20:46than how they interact with attractive.
1:20:48So, we're also talking about extremes of
1:20:50people on the lower end. But you're
1:20:51saying that if you're somewhere in the
1:20:52middle, you're in the bell curve, that
1:20:54this conversation won't really apply.
1:20:56>> It applies to you on a marginal level.
1:20:57So, like if you're a four and you want
1:20:59to feel life like an eight, just feel
1:21:01free to upgrade to an eight. Uh but if
1:21:03you're a one it and someone's like, "Do
1:21:05you want to be a 10?" Almost no one
1:21:07answers no to that for very good reason.
1:21:09So, it's one of those things like if
1:21:11someone is so weak, uh to use an
1:21:13analogy, that they can't get up out of a
1:21:15chair, how important is strength
1:21:16training? It's lifesaving. uh if someone
1:21:19wants to put an extra 10 pounds in their
1:21:20already world record squat total, how
1:21:22important is it? It's not. But it still
1:21:24matters, right? It just matters more and
1:21:26more and more the bigger the the
1:21:28disparity is. And I think that these
1:21:30kinds of aesthetic things, if you're
1:21:31like an eight or seven and you read the
1:21:33book, you're going to be like, "Oh, this
1:21:34is a dope book. I love it. It's great
1:21:35vibes, great advice." Is it going to
1:21:36really hit? If you read it as having at
1:21:39some point in your life or currently
1:21:40been, let's say, a two or a three or
1:21:42four, zing, you're going to be holy
1:21:45[ __ ] That right there has some weight
1:21:47to it because it does.
1:21:49>> And how would you in this book recommend
1:21:51people to uh get aesthetically?
1:21:54>> Yeah. Yeah.
1:21:54>> On your level.
1:21:55>> So again, super super clarification. I
1:21:57said this once before, but it bears
1:21:58repeating. I this is none of this is
1:22:00prescriptive. Um I agree with you
1:22:03entirely that the inner self matters way
1:22:05more than the outer self for sure. But I
1:22:08also know that people care about what
1:22:09their outer self matters. And so I'm
1:22:10kind of like, well, if if you want to
1:22:12upgrade your look, God bless you. here's
1:22:15how to do it. You don't have to do it at
1:22:17all, but here's how to do it. So, here's
1:22:18how to do it.
1:22:19>> I mean, you you're on one hand saying if
1:22:23you want to do it, here's how you can do
1:22:24it, which I think is a totally
1:22:26reasonable message because people have
1:22:28these interests and want to get
1:22:29stronger, faster, bigger, whatever. Um
1:22:32but then on the other hand if you say
1:22:33like look how bad life is if you don't
1:22:37do this
1:22:37>> not life certain elements of life
1:22:39>> which then ends up being huge life
1:22:42factors like you pointed out
1:22:43companionship how awesome it is to go to
1:22:45a club and have someone dance with you.
1:22:46>> Yeah. Yeah.
1:22:47>> So like significantly will impact your
1:22:50life in a bad way.
1:22:51>> Yeah. Yeah. and then say, "But if you
1:22:54want to do it,
1:22:55>> well, it's like you just went on to tell
1:22:56me how awful things will be if I don't
1:22:59do these things."
1:23:00>> Not things will be, things are likely to
1:23:02be, but this is all um all averages and
1:23:05all bell curves all the way down. You
1:23:07could be a girl that weighs 400 lb
1:23:10androgen obesity. You just got balls for
1:23:13balls of confidence and you like being
1:23:16iconoclastic and you're also a
1:23:18professional dominatrix and you're in
1:23:20the fetish scene and you're a goddess
1:23:21and a queen and someone's like, "Do you
1:23:23want to be skinny or whatever?" You're
1:23:24like, "Fuck no, the hell would I do
1:23:25that? Also, I lose a shitload of money
1:23:26because most of my clients like me this
1:23:28big." Are you is your life?
1:23:29>> That's a really that's that's the
1:23:31extreme version of that for you. And you
1:23:34have you have to be a dominatrix. You
1:23:37have to go into these ridiculous like
1:23:38you're basically saying join the circus
1:23:40>> or do my boosting of
1:23:42>> I don't remember when I said you had to
1:23:44do that Mike.
1:23:45>> But you're saying that that you gave an
1:23:47example
1:23:47>> just as an example.
1:23:48>> But like is there a lesson?
1:23:51Yeah, sure. What's a
1:23:52>> 100%. You don't look so great on the
1:23:55outside. You don't have a very high sex
1:23:57drive. You met the person that was going
1:23:59to be your lover forever when you were
1:24:01both 12 respectively and it became
1:24:02sexual and you were 17 and you work at
1:24:05Microsoft and you work in AI and you
1:24:07work on that Azure platform and you're
1:24:09got everything you need and everything's
1:24:10awesome and your partner's awesome.
1:24:12>> Got it. And then who's the person again
1:24:15not extreme that would benefit from
1:24:18doing this program?
1:24:21Someone who
1:24:23has really done a lot of work and has a
1:24:27lot of their life really stapled
1:24:29together super well, but is missing that
1:24:31external attractiveness factor that
1:24:34they've always wanted and never could
1:24:36have. Cuz some people just want it more.
1:24:38>> Sure.
1:24:38>> Like I could have wanted to be 6'3 my
1:24:40whole life. And like who's to tell me
1:24:43that that's bad? Uh dope kid. Here's get
1:24:46the bone growing [ __ ] and you're good to
1:24:48go. If that's what you want, amazing.
1:24:50What I'm saying is that tens of millions
1:24:52of women and men want that. They do.
1:24:55They really actually do want it. Some a
1:24:57ton, some a little bit, most people in
1:25:00between somewhere. And so the utility
1:25:03you'll get out of the aesthetic
1:25:04revolution ranges from literal zero to
1:25:07be like don't give a [ __ ] all the way to
1:25:09this is the most life-changing and
1:25:10impactful thing that has ever happened
1:25:12to me. Period. And that's real, but it's
1:25:14everything in between.
1:25:15>> Mhm. So what's the plan?
1:25:18>> All right. You just download my app and
1:25:21you pay me money. You know, I'm not an
1:25:23engineer. I don't know what happens
1:25:24between then and I just know I get paid.
1:25:27>> Tracking. Got it.
1:25:28>> This was an amazing talk. Mike, listen.
1:25:29Thank you for having me on. It's
1:25:31ww.mmikeapp.com/pay.
1:25:34>> We got to be careful cuz whose app that
1:25:36that's someone's website.
1:25:37>> Do you think that's like Mike's app?
1:25:38>> Yeah, same. Who owns mikeapp.com?
1:25:44>> Uh, it comes up as mikeap.com.
1:25:47Don't give Mike Zap any money.
1:25:50>> Everyone's got back. Mike Zap will make
1:25:52me beautiful.
1:25:53>> Thank God.
1:25:53>> For sale for $695.
1:25:56>> Oh, look. Aesthetics matter, but $695.
1:25:59Jesus. Back to the interview in just a
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1:27:19or click the link in the episode
1:27:20description box. All right, let's get
1:27:22back to the other Dr. Mike.
1:27:24>> There are multiple things that you can
1:27:26do to upgrade your look and I'm going to
1:27:29list them. I think they're like off hand
1:27:31like six or something. I split them into
1:27:33like roughly six categories and they're
1:27:35also scaled in time of how over history
1:27:38and over current and over future time
1:27:40we've gained tractions on these things.
1:27:42So the first basic one is training. So
1:27:46if you do enough physical activity and
1:27:48you do resistance training just regular
1:27:50normal lifting then you're able to
1:27:52upgrade your muscularity, reduce your
1:27:54body fat percentage and it makes most
1:27:56people more aesthetically pleasing to
1:27:58the average. Right? Straight up. It
1:28:00gives you all the cool curves and all
1:28:01that stuff. So, that's great. That's
1:28:02ingredient one. Very easy to do. Most
1:28:05people can get all of the aesthetics
1:28:06that most people want with like two
1:28:09workouts a week, each taking 20 to 30
1:28:11minutes if done right. No problem. The
1:28:13next one is diet. Oh, here's another
1:28:14thing. We know a lot about training for
1:28:16aesthetics. I don't want to say we know
1:28:19everything about it, but god, we know a
1:28:20ton. Like, we have a real good
1:28:22understanding of that problem space.
1:28:24Like, if someone if you're sitting next
1:28:25to me on a plane and you're like, "So,
1:28:26like lifting, have we figured out how
1:28:27lifting like why like how do I lift to
1:28:30grow muscle?" Is that like a solved
1:28:31problem or is it super mysterious to be
1:28:33like it's not solved but like well on
1:28:34our ways. I'm going to give you five
1:28:36points right now that are just going to
1:28:37take really good care of you. The next
1:28:38is diet. Dietary control huge. Dietary
1:28:42control has a bigger impact on
1:28:43aesthetics than uh lifting does on
1:28:45average by several factors. Mostly
1:28:48because the number one reason that the
1:28:50average person isn't as aesthetic they
1:28:51would want be today in Western society
1:28:53in modern society is that they're
1:28:55overfat which is a technical term
1:28:56overweight obese etc. And so diet can
1:28:59just crush out your body fat stores to a
1:29:01huge extent and that's a big deal. So
1:29:03getting your diet right, the book's
1:29:05going to have all these excellent, super
1:29:06simplified basic recommendations for how
1:29:08to eat long-term, sustainable, super
1:29:10healthy that will shrink your fat. So,
1:29:13so far we got some muscle growth, we got
1:29:14some fat loss. What are we left with
1:29:16next? For many people, that's just it,
1:29:19man. Like you're you look amazing.
1:29:21Awesome. There is another thing that's
1:29:24um been around for a while but is
1:29:26getting much better now and that's
1:29:27cosmetic surgery. There are numerous
1:29:30reasons to get cosmetic surgery. The
1:29:31simple simplest ones to understand in
1:29:33this context. If we're saying okay we're
1:29:35going to use all of these things in
1:29:36succession. First we lift weights we get
1:29:37some muscle. Cool. Then we start
1:29:39dieting. We burn the fat. Cool. If you
1:29:41have more than oh depending on your
1:29:43frame size 20 to 30 lbs of excess fat on
1:29:47you at any one point. Also depending on
1:29:49how it's distributed, you can get some
1:29:50loose skin after you lose it. And loose
1:29:53skin does resorb over time and with some
1:29:55external cream modalities that are
1:29:57non-farm pharmaceutical, but just a
1:29:59teeny bit. And so you could get, for
1:30:01example, skin excision surgery, which I
1:30:03just had recently and I'm still
1:30:05recovering from. It's been traumatic,
1:30:07but thanks for asking. Like I know you
1:30:08don't care about my feelings. Anyway, so
1:30:10um and so
1:30:12>> all of a sudden, cuz here's the thing.
1:30:14Um, people will go from 400 lb to 150
1:30:17lb. People do this all the time. I mean,
1:30:19it's incredibly rare, but we have so
1:30:21many people that you see this on
1:30:22Instagram over and over. And a lot of
1:30:24people think, "I'm going to lose weight.
1:30:25I'm going to look phenomenal." And they
1:30:26look so much better. It's unbelievable.
1:30:28They take their shirts off and there's
1:30:29just loose hanging skin everywhere. That
1:30:31is a tractable problem that aesthetic
1:30:34surgery can solve. Uh, the solution is
1:30:36not perfect, but they get better all the
1:30:38time. It's like what aesthetic surgery
1:30:39looked like in the late 80s. Like toss
1:30:42considered like brutal and not ideal. In
1:30:45the late 2020s, holy crap, they got
1:30:47dude, they got robot surgery now. They
1:30:48got compounds that like weird like
1:30:50stitching inside that helps you heal way
1:30:52faster. All this really cool [ __ ] So
1:30:54you can excise fat cells so they can't
1:30:56regrow bigger. You can uh a variety of
1:31:00surgical techniques can make the skin
1:31:01tighter and that's amazing. So if we
1:31:03take a person and I do this in the book
1:31:05through a kind of long story that I
1:31:06weave. We take a fictional character was
1:31:08450 pounds at the beginning and at the
1:31:10end like 175 or something like that and
1:31:13we say okay she got more muscle then she
1:31:16basically lost most of her fat and then
1:31:20it's uh potentially surgery time to kind
1:31:23of you know draw down the skin of the
1:31:25arms, the legs, the tummy so on and so
1:31:27forth. And uh at some point that g gains
1:31:32you lots of traction, but for many
1:31:34people it doesn't go as far as we'd like
1:31:37because some people have the kind of
1:31:38genetics that makes fat loss dieting
1:31:40profoundly difficult due to high levels
1:31:42of food noise of a huge food drive or
1:31:45they have levels of muscularity that are
1:31:47capped genetically at very low levels.
1:31:49They may want to be significantly more
1:31:50muscular, but they just can't do it. And
1:31:51those people are real. And so we have
1:31:53another thing which is now an exploding
1:31:56field is drugs uh modern pharmaceutical
1:31:59inventions for the purpose of body
1:32:00composition enhancement. And that
1:32:02doesn't end with just like growing
1:32:05muscle and burning fat. It goes all the
1:32:07way into what are called exercise
1:32:08mimetics um which are currently several
1:32:11of them are in various stages of FDA
1:32:13approval. What is an exercise mimetic?
1:32:15It's a pill that you take that maybe
1:32:17does biochemically what 50 to 65% of all
1:32:20of the things exercise does for you. But
1:32:22it's just in a pill. This [ __ ] is real.
1:32:24If anyone's interested, Google Ael
1:32:26Prague. You can't buy it yet. It's
1:32:29research chemical. Um, and you read
1:32:31about what it does and you're like,
1:32:32"This is a real thing that does this."
1:32:34>> I think I saw it on Mike's app's
1:32:35website.
1:32:36>> It's a great website and a phenomenal
1:32:38app. You It's only accessed by money. Do
1:32:42you want to split it with me?
1:32:43>> Yeah.
1:32:43>> It's Mike's app. Like, which Mike? Like
1:32:45just Mike?
1:32:46>> No, Mike's.
1:32:47>> Mike's app.
1:32:48>> Apostrophe.
1:32:49>> No.
1:32:49>> After.
1:32:51Yeah, that way we share.
1:32:52>> Yes, of course. So on the drug side, you
1:32:56have drugs, of course, like trespathide
1:32:58for example, cuz it's easy to tell
1:32:59someone, hey, do a diet, and then they
1:33:01have like psychotic hunger 3 weeks later
1:33:03and they're like, realistically, this is
1:33:04not going to work for me. I can't even
1:33:05think at work anymore. You take
1:33:07something like Tresepide, you're well on
1:33:08your way. The drug wave is just cresting
1:33:12up right now in Oh man, these these
1:33:16predictions get really tough for a
1:33:18reason. I'll tell you right now. There
1:33:20are I can separate drugs into there are
1:33:22many more classes in this but three
1:33:23classes of drugs are instructive. There
1:33:25are drugs uh this is some of the stuff
1:33:27that you know pretty well biologics
1:33:29right like you don't just take them a
1:33:32lot of times you have to go to the
1:33:33hospital to get them infused if you do
1:33:34take them they're like do not drop this
1:33:35vial keep it in a air a cool environment
1:33:38it's $10,000
1:33:40it there are biologics that do crazy
1:33:42[ __ ] to your body but they're not
1:33:43realistic um and they can become
1:33:45realistic with like a 10-year research
1:33:46pipeline but what's happening right now
1:33:48is as some of these biologics are in
1:33:50phase two and three trials they already
1:33:51have small molecule drugs that are as
1:33:53good as the biologics but they're oral
1:33:55super cheap, insanely easy to
1:33:57manufacture, and they could eventually
1:33:59cost what like blood pressure drugs do.
1:34:00Like nominally, like write aids, like
1:34:02it's $9 for a 90-day supply. And like I
1:34:04don't even know how anyone makes money
1:34:05selling this [ __ ] Like miracle [ __ ]
1:34:07Then there's one last one, and that I'm
1:34:10going to save for a little bit later.
1:34:11And that's genetic engineering. Like if
1:34:13you have a thing with your cells, which
1:34:15is like they make you hungry all the
1:34:17time. It's from your DNA. Why not just
1:34:20change your DNA? So that's downstream.
1:34:22Predicting what drugs are going to be
1:34:24like in 5 years is tough because you
1:34:26could be like, man, we're all going to
1:34:27be taking awesome biologics in 5 years,
1:34:29but actually we're going to be taking
1:34:30small molecules, but actually halfway
1:34:32through stage two of small molecule
1:34:33research, they go, we could actually hit
1:34:35the DNA itself. We don't even need to be
1:34:37selling drugs. So these these waves kind
1:34:39of crash onto themselves. But in any
1:34:41case, the drug revolution is a huge deal
1:34:44because if you lift, if you control your
1:34:47diet, eventually, even if you do zero of
1:34:49those things, drugs are going to be able
1:34:50to give you right about as much muscle
1:34:53as you want, as little fat as you want,
1:34:55as much daily energy as you want, and
1:34:57all of the benefits of exercise in a
1:34:59pill. Phenomenal. Let's take this
1:35:01further. So, we have all these things
1:35:03already. And already, if we're
1:35:04constructing our fake person, they got a
1:35:06lot of tools, man. Like, you can really
1:35:08change your body in a ton. I'm not going
1:35:10to address the face in this podcast. All
1:35:12the same [ __ ] applies to the face,
1:35:13cosmetic surgery, creams, etc., etc. And
1:35:16then we get to age reversal.
1:35:19Age reversal is nearly inevitable. It is
1:35:24going to be one of the biggest
1:35:25revolutions anyone has ever seen in 50
1:35:28other ways that have nothing to do with
1:35:29aesthetics. You know, like you don't age
1:35:31anymore. Kind of kind of sweet. But on
1:35:34aesthetics, age reversal is enormous
1:35:37because at some point when you're a
1:35:38woman, let's say in your late 40s and
1:35:41you've been that woman that wasn't
1:35:42conventionally attractive and never got
1:35:44that taste of romance that you really
1:35:45wanted. And so you can get uh jacked,
1:35:48you can get lean, you can get the
1:35:49surgery to cut out all the excess skin,
1:35:51you can take the advanced drugs in the
1:35:52late 2020s that'll make you just like
1:35:54awesome. But but but but you're still
1:35:57now 50 looking. And it's just very
1:36:00wellestablished fact that a huge part of
1:36:03female attractiveness is basically
1:36:05proxies for youth. Like that's just a
1:36:06thing. The cosmetics industry knows that
1:36:08very well. And so if we can meaningfully
1:36:11and we will reverse human aging back to
1:36:14like whatever like age 22 kind of vibes,
1:36:18then that is going to be such an
1:36:19enormous impact on aesthetics that it's
1:36:22going to change tons of stuff. And then
1:36:24the last biological revolution will be
1:36:27the genetic engineering revolution. I
1:36:30don't know which one will hit first,
1:36:32meaningful age reversal or genetic
1:36:34engineering. Though if you um hit
1:36:37genetic engineering first in a big way,
1:36:38it actually swallows up the whole aging
1:36:40revolution. And the genetic engineering
1:36:42revolution is basically going to be like
1:36:44you can look like whatever the you want.
1:36:47Like you can have horns, you can be
1:36:48purple, you can be 6' n, doesn't matter.
1:36:51Because once artificial super
1:36:53intelligence gets cart launched on human
1:36:55DNA, it can just send you something in
1:36:57the mail. It's like just jab this in and
1:36:58over the next 2 months you're going to
1:36:59transform into the thing that you
1:37:01designed on your computer interface to
1:37:02want to look like. Um there's nothing
1:37:04about that that is impossible. It's not
1:37:06intractable for an artificial super
1:37:09intelligence which is probably I don't
1:37:10know several months away now in some
1:37:12ways already here. Uh it's going to be a
1:37:14thing that gets solved. So all of these
1:37:17things for the aesthetic revolution are
1:37:19such a big deal because right now in
1:37:202025, if you're listening to this
1:37:22podcast, you go, "Okay, cool. Artificial
1:37:24super intelligence guy's out of his
1:37:25mind. Age reversal sounds wacky. It's
1:37:28not going to be here for a little while.
1:37:29It's true. It won't. But um what can I
1:37:31do now to get to my best look if I
1:37:35care?" And the answer is, and all will
1:37:38be in the book, is you can control your
1:37:40weight training. You can exercise, you
1:37:43can control your diet a ton, you can
1:37:44already have access to some drugs, and
1:37:46you sure should have access with enough
1:37:48saved money to a lot of surgery that
1:37:49really makes you look very different in
1:37:51a really awesome way. And some of the
1:37:52surgeries uh more subtle nowadays,
1:37:54there's this like facial like deaging,
1:37:56it's not really de-agging, procedure
1:37:58that people do, like really subtle
1:37:59facial surgery now that all the
1:38:00Hollywood people get. You know, there's
1:38:02the look. Do you remember like the mid9s
1:38:04facial surgery look in females? Puffy
1:38:07lips, like cheekbones that look like
1:38:10this, and you're like, "That's not a
1:38:11real human face. That's a surgery face."
1:38:14The new kinds of surgery are so subtle,
1:38:16you can't really tell. Someone just
1:38:17looks like kind of 10 years fresher and
1:38:20like a little prettier than they've ever
1:38:21looked. That stuff you can access
1:38:23already today. It's very expensive
1:38:25today. In the future, it's just it
1:38:27always does this. It's just it's been
1:38:29coming down in price this entire time.
1:38:31And so you can access these things as
1:38:34they come out and eventually accessing
1:38:36age reversal and eventually accessing
1:38:38genetic engineering. So that to the
1:38:41people that care the most eventually and
1:38:44by eventually I really mean probably the
1:38:46mid 2030s no more than 10 years maybe 15
1:38:49years depending on regulatory stuff from
1:38:50now to whoever is left that still cares
1:38:53about how they look at a deep level
1:38:55you'll be able to look more or less like
1:38:57what you want. I think that's a great
1:38:59thing. Why does the subject of
1:39:01attractiveness matter so much to you?
1:39:03Like how did this become? Do you think
1:39:05it really matters much to me?
1:39:06>> I mean, so much so that you're studying
1:39:08it, you're writing a book on it, you're
1:39:11trying to figure out how people feel,
1:39:12how to help them. Where did that come
1:39:15from?
1:39:18>> So,
1:39:21actually the the current intro to the
1:39:23book addresses this. Uh, I might as well
1:39:26tell the story. I was at uh I was at a
1:39:28college party once. I mean that just
1:39:31once but it was so fun.
1:39:34And um there was a poster on the wall.
1:39:39It was like you know like guys own the
1:39:41house like a college house and
1:39:44well-meaning just decent human beings
1:39:46just dudes. And there's tons of people
1:39:48in the party, guys, girls, everyone, you
1:39:50know, just college. And there was a
1:39:53poster on the wall. It wasn't very big.
1:39:55Um, but it said no fat chicks
1:40:00and I remember not like I don't know
1:40:03it's a joke I guess. I'm not going to
1:40:06judge other people's humor. My [ __ ] is
1:40:08wacky so whatever. Haha.
1:40:11Uh, I remember turning my head at one
1:40:13point during the party and I saw two
1:40:16girls standing there well away from the
1:40:18picture and they were chatting, having
1:40:21fun, and they were both like they were
1:40:24fat, you know, I'm not going to walk
1:40:26around it. Not thick, not pudgy, not
1:40:29whatever, not whatever terms, like
1:40:31straight up.
1:40:32And uh
1:40:35I wondered at the time and I've wondered
1:40:36many times since
1:40:39what it would feel like to read that mid
1:40:41conversation with someone at the party
1:40:45like
1:40:47it can't feel good.
1:40:49And then that thinking layers on to
1:40:54reading like evoc literature, talking to
1:40:57real humans,
1:40:59examining my own feelings on the matter,
1:41:02talking to my wife at length.
1:41:05And uh you realize that like when you
1:41:09grow up as an unattractive
1:41:12girl,
1:41:14you grow up differently. your experience
1:41:16is very very different than if you grow
1:41:18up even just average being attractive,
1:41:21just average.
1:41:23Um, and that difference is massive.
1:41:27And there is a world of deep hurt that
1:41:31is available to you if you simply just
1:41:33are normal because we're talking about
1:41:34all the self-work stuff which is so
1:41:36valuable.
1:41:37The average human being to your point
1:41:40has only so much bandwidth.
1:41:42And if your degree of nastiness that you
1:41:44gained from the world being the other
1:41:48was so high,
1:41:51your realistic probability of self-
1:41:52workinging through that is lower.
1:41:56It's just too much toxicity for most
1:41:58people to eat. And I don't like that.
1:42:02Um, imagine being a kid not of financial
1:42:05means and you go to a party with like
1:42:08wealthier people and there's a poster on
1:42:10the wall says no poor kid, but you're
1:42:12talking and laughing with people and
1:42:13they didn't ask you how poor you were.
1:42:15No one cares. No one's they just assume
1:42:16you were with the rich kid you're also
1:42:18rich like. How's that make you feel?
1:42:21How's that make you feel when everywhere
1:42:23in the world poverty matters? You ever
1:42:25see like slum dog millionaire and [ __ ]
1:42:26like that cast system?
1:42:30There's not a cast system for
1:42:31attractiveness
1:42:33um in the modern world. But I tell you
1:42:36what, middle school sure [ __ ] feels like
1:42:38that sometimes, man. Did you when you uh
1:42:40went to middle school, did you guys have
1:42:41clicks?
1:42:43>> Yeah.
1:42:44>> Yeah.
1:42:44>> I mean, to some degree.
1:42:46>> In the middle schools and high schools I
1:42:48attended, the click structure, you could
1:42:51you could frame it with a with a knife.
1:42:54It was that clear. It was based wildly
1:42:58on external physical attractiveness for
1:43:00females and for males that plus how like
1:43:03cocky you were or whatever the um it was
1:43:07clear as day and people treated each
1:43:09other very differently based on how they
1:43:11looked. And so my assessment of that is
1:43:16that if you have to go through the world
1:43:19with a lot of toxicity and a lot of not
1:43:21fun experiences and a lot of not fun
1:43:23experiences in your head cuz remember
1:43:24most people who are not attractive when
1:43:26they look in the mirror they're under no
1:43:28deep illusions about who's attractive
1:43:30and who's not. And no amount of society
1:43:33telling you you're beautiful can go all
1:43:35the way to clearing that cash.
1:43:37Absolutely not. But I don't think that
1:43:39like the solution isn't to tell people
1:43:41they're beautiful. That's also an
1:43:43equally judgmental standpoint.
1:43:45>> People do it all the time. It's really
1:43:46well intentional.
1:43:47>> I'm not saying that that's not done. I'm
1:43:49just saying that's not what the opposite
1:43:52strategy would be. The opposite strategy
1:43:54would be saying that this is not as
1:43:56important and we should seek to change
1:43:59it. So like
1:44:00>> how do we change it? People just don't
1:44:01want to have sex with me. Well, the
1:44:02example of middle school, I think now
1:44:05middle schools function quite
1:44:06differently from what I've seen in my
1:44:08nephew's middle schools
1:44:09>> also. Um,
1:44:12>> even from like the changing of uh
1:44:16genders and how people view sexuality
1:44:20has drastically changed from the way
1:44:22that I even went to middle school. Um,
1:44:25and the fact is that
1:44:29when we we could set up people for
1:44:32failure
1:44:34or we could set up people to be adaptive
1:44:37to circumstantial change. The idea that
1:44:40you're seeing this no fat thing and
1:44:42having the strong emotional tie to it is
1:44:44very positive. Like you're creating an
1:44:47evolution in your mind of what it's like
1:44:49to be a higher level human. That's how I
1:44:51imagine it to be.
1:44:53So the question is how do we play that
1:44:54out of actually solving this societal
1:44:57dilemma where people are judgmental of
1:44:58someone saying no fat chicks.
1:45:01Is it make people who are overweight
1:45:04lose weight or adjusting how people that
1:45:09treat individuals who are overweight as
1:45:12that's the problem not the weight? So,
1:45:16uh, it's both for sure, but treating
1:45:18people, see, you can be treating people
1:45:21bad in a, uh, positive way or negative
1:45:22way. I don't mean positive, negative,
1:45:24like motions. I mean, like actively or
1:45:26neutrally. So, not saying mean [ __ ]
1:45:29Dope. Really good idea, right? But like,
1:45:32I'm a fat chick, right? Who's going to
1:45:34go on a date with me? They don't call me
1:45:36fat anymore. That's great. Look, like
1:45:38the 70s and [ __ ] were ruthless places.
1:45:40Middle school, people throw rocks at
1:45:41your head if you were fat. Terrible.
1:45:43Awful. Thank god we don't do that
1:45:44anymore. But um are people who are not
1:45:49con who are conventionally very
1:45:50unattractive seeing a much higher rate
1:45:54of people giving them the kind of
1:45:56physical affirmation and love that they
1:45:58want? I mean statistically people are
1:46:01having way less sex than ever. So that
1:46:03would be tough to say.
1:46:04>> And also statistically more people are
1:46:06overweight and obese.
1:46:07>> Yeah.
1:46:08>> So is the norm changing?
1:46:10>> No. I would say it's a reflection of the
1:46:12fact that the norm is not changing. More
1:46:13people are overweight, fewer people find
1:46:15each other attractive, fewer people have
1:46:17sex. If people were everyone was really
1:46:20attractive,
1:46:20>> you're saying that people gaining weight
1:46:22has led to people having less sex.
1:46:24>> I would I'm not making that claim, but
1:46:26it wouldn't be surprising if that was
1:46:28the case. It perfectly makes sense.
1:46:31Here's the other thing. Like
1:46:33we can do lots of postulating in public
1:46:36life, but in private life, two things
1:46:38interfere. Do you really want to touch
1:46:40that person in a sensual way and also do
1:46:43your downstairs bits cooperate? I could
1:46:45be a feminist in the real true sense of
1:46:47the word and have total body acceptance,
1:46:49but Mr. Winky doesn't give a flying and
1:46:52he only wakes up for when [ __ ] is hot
1:46:53and he only works on raw biology. You
1:46:55can't trick him into culture for [ __ ]
1:46:58Like that's the thing that revealed
1:46:59versus stated preferences, right? People
1:47:02say they like this. You look at their
1:47:03porn cash, it looks different. That's
1:47:05what they really like. That stuff's much
1:47:07deeper. that stuff's more biological.
1:47:09That stuff you actually have to look the
1:47:11part for. And so what I'm saying is we
1:47:13should work and and have been very
1:47:15successfully, I might add. And we need
1:47:16to do more to make everyone feel never
1:47:19hated and super fully accepted. But
1:47:21there is a level of acceptance that's
1:47:22not up to your generous nature. It's up
1:47:25to your endowed nature. And that just
1:47:28doesn't like imagine you're sitting
1:47:30across from like imagine you're in high
1:47:31school and one of your best friends is
1:47:33super fat, super unattractive, but she's
1:47:35so cool, right? And she goes, "Hey, um,
1:47:37I have like a crush on you legit and you
1:47:39feel nothing in that department." Like,
1:47:41[ __ ] are you supposed to do, man? How
1:47:43much social how much social
1:47:45indoctrination
1:47:46>> truly not feel it? Or are you blocking
1:47:48it for the fear of social norm
1:47:50rejection?
1:47:50>> Social norm rejection means you say,
1:47:53"Oh, hey, uh, let's talk about this
1:47:55later." And you go to her house later.
1:47:57So, we're assuming you really want it,
1:47:59right? You go to the house, radical make
1:48:02outs, just tons of real fun. And you're
1:48:04like, we have to keep this secret
1:48:06because they won't understand. And then
1:48:08it's two things. On the one hand, up,
1:48:10right? On the other hand, forbidden and
1:48:12awesome. Everyone likes a forbidden
1:48:13affair. That's half of all romance
1:48:15novels. Mike, what I'm trying to bring
1:48:16to the conversation is that there is
1:48:18another option here. Is that nobody says
1:48:20yes to you or the people that say yes to
1:48:22you, you don't like, and then you're not
1:48:24having, it's not that they're secretly
1:48:25not into you, which I think probably
1:48:27accounts for some of the variance, but
1:48:28also makes that cool off offhand seated
1:48:31seated romance thing possible. There
1:48:33there's also just the real raw and this
1:48:35is brutal but it's true in many cases.
1:48:38No one's going to you man. No one wants
1:48:40to make out with you. I don't mean no
1:48:41one in the literal sense. No one at your
1:48:43school, no one that you know, no one
1:48:44that you trust, none of your friends in
1:48:46your circle who you actually like. His
1:48:48thing is like guys will be like if
1:48:49there's a girl out there in the world,
1:48:51she's a reproductive age. I'll hit it.
1:48:53Girls don't work like that. They work
1:48:54off relationships and getting to know
1:48:56people much more. What if the the one
1:48:58guy you really really like you're just
1:49:00not physically attractive enough for?
1:49:01And here's the other thing. You look at
1:49:03yourself in the mirror and you agree.
1:49:05You look at yourself, you go, I'm not
1:49:06physically attractive enough. I wouldn't
1:49:08I wouldn't be banging me if I was a
1:49:10dude. And it's not like you got um
1:49:11tricked by society into thinking that.
1:49:13Maybe some element of that is true. But
1:49:16even if it was just super raw, it's just
1:49:17that this ain't it. Like what do you do
1:49:19then? And my answer is like, well, okay,
1:49:21so what's exactly the problem? Super
1:49:23first principles. It's like, okay, the
1:49:25guy I like loves my soul. Mhm. But I
1:49:27didn't like the container. Uhhuh.
1:49:31He already loves my soul. You don't have
1:49:33to change your soul. Okay. Can I change
1:49:35my container? How old are you? I'm over
1:49:3818. Yes. Yes.
1:49:40>> Yeah. This isn't a conversation about
1:49:41whether or not plastic surgery should be
1:49:43illegal.
1:49:43>> Not just plastic surgery, but all these
1:49:45other things. I'm not saying illegal.
1:49:46Legally legal. Um the right thing to do
1:49:49from a compassionate perspective from
1:49:51onlookers. I don't want to be telling
1:49:54people who go consult for plastic
1:49:56surgery that look, well, honestly,
1:49:58you're already beautiful on the inside.
1:49:59Yeah, I know, mister. I'm here to fix
1:50:02the other [ __ ] and be like, well, it
1:50:03doesn't matter much. I know, but it
1:50:05matters some. And when you don't have
1:50:06that romantic interaction, acceptance
1:50:08that many other people take for granted,
1:50:10then it can matter a lot to you. What
1:50:13everybody else thinks. If you have a
1:50:14vision of how you can be more externally
1:50:17beautiful and you have the money and you
1:50:19have the intelligence to pursue that,
1:50:21the aesthetic revolution book and
1:50:22philosophy is like great, this is it. So
1:50:24for this book
1:50:26>> in order to like you're giving people
1:50:29the
1:50:31ammunition for lack of a better term.
1:50:33>> It's very combative. I don't like that.
1:50:34>> Yeah. It's not This is a combative
1:50:35statement. You're giving people the not
1:50:38the food
1:50:38>> ammunition.
1:50:39>> Ammunition uh
1:50:41>> the equipment.
1:50:42>> Sure.
1:50:43>> The equipment and principles by which
1:50:46they can change their appearance.
1:50:47>> Mhm. But then within you giving those
1:50:51principles and equipment, you're also
1:50:53passing a form of judgment of what it's
1:50:56like to be them. Are you doing it from
1:50:59personal experience? Here's what I've
1:51:00seen these people treated as. Or are you
1:51:04saying it, I'm one of those people. I've
1:51:06been treated like this and here's a way
1:51:08to get better. Or are you saying it even
1:51:10from a more scientific standpoint like
1:51:12I've studied this, here's what I've
1:51:15studied, here's what I've seen outcomes
1:51:17with. Which one of those three are you
1:51:19writing from?
1:51:20>> All three, but in different proportions.
1:51:22My own personal experience, very small.
1:51:24I would love to. It would just be better
1:51:26for the book, man, if like I was like a
1:51:29formerly really fat girl and then I
1:51:30changed my body and [ __ ] like that. Like
1:51:32it would be dope. Uh it's not me. It's
1:51:35not my history. Um, I have my own
1:51:37aesthetic preferences for my body and
1:51:39you know they're but they're wacky and
1:51:41they're really out there and they have
1:51:42nothing to do with being attractive to
1:51:43women or like I've done things to my
1:51:45body that I knew for a fact were making
1:51:46me less attractive to women because they
1:51:48were raising my powerlifting total. I
1:51:49wasn't going to give a flying [ __ ] like
1:51:51so very small me but enough me to relate
1:51:54to other people's emotions. Like someone
1:51:57uh stomps on your toe and it hurts a
1:51:59lot, right? You see someone get shot and
1:52:01their arm gets shot off in the street,
1:52:02you're like, "Oh my god, you want to
1:52:03help them?" Like you assume they're in
1:52:05pain. like you've never been shot. What
1:52:06if it just doesn't feel like anything?
1:52:07You're like, I don't know, man. My toe
1:52:09really hurt. And if I extrapolate that
1:52:11blown off arm really hurts and then all
1:52:12the neuroscientists come in, they go,
1:52:14"Yes, getting your arm blown off is
1:52:15probably the kind of pain you never want
1:52:16to with." And so it's a little part me,
1:52:20decent part research, although a lot of
1:52:22this stuff is like super obvious, but if
1:52:24you look in the research, it's the kind
1:52:26of research that like, you know, like
1:52:27people people with certain morphology
1:52:29have lower body like acceptance
1:52:31standards and self-image and all the
1:52:33stuff. like I could have told you that
1:52:35uh when people lose weights direct
1:52:36studies people lose weight their body
1:52:38image and self-efficacy goes up period
1:52:40right again it's easy to say it's easy
1:52:43to envision easy to study all the stuff
1:52:45is there a big part of it is what
1:52:48technically called vicarious experience
1:52:50of communicating with others and
1:52:51watching others go through the world and
1:52:54um you know also I have been not Mr. or
1:52:58I'm not good-looking like you, but uh
1:53:01stop it. I hate it when people
1:53:02compliment me. You will shut up and you
1:53:04will take it. Uh sorry to get the crew
1:53:06laughing. So, um I've been that guy in a
1:53:10few circumstances where I've interacted
1:53:12with people that wanted more and just
1:53:15for physical reasons, the answer was no.
1:53:17I hated it. I hated it. But I couldn't
1:53:20change it. It's just that's just who I
1:53:22am. No, I can put the words on like in
1:53:26the bedroom or whatever at a date. I can
1:53:28touch in a real cool way. I can say all
1:53:29the [ __ ] I can do the eye contact. Like
1:53:31I got the whole psychopath lying thing
1:53:33down. It's great. It's easy. Um, so I
1:53:36got I got some game.
1:53:39I can't do that to a real human being
1:53:42for real. For real. And be like, "You're
1:53:44so gorgeous. I can't tell you that if I
1:53:47don't believe it." Like, you have real
1:53:48feelings. You got to believe me. And
1:53:50then what the [ __ ] going to happen?
1:53:51I've been that person and a lot of it's
1:53:53been the vicarious part. So, I'd say
1:53:55it's probably 50% vicarious part uh 40%
1:53:59research and then maybe 10% of my own
1:54:02like wishing I looked different so that
1:54:05I could uh I don't even know man get
1:54:08success with girls I guess like I don't
1:54:09know when you make enough money that
1:54:11problem solves itself to be completely
1:54:12honest.
1:54:12>> Why did you get plastic surgery?
1:54:14>> Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, in my quest to be to
1:54:18get as as as strong, absolutely strong
1:54:20as possible, I was under the illusion
1:54:23that the bigger you get, the stronger
1:54:25you get, which is, uh, not so much an
1:54:27illusion, it's true, but I just didn't
1:54:29know that when you get really fat uh,
1:54:32and muscular at the same time, that some
1:54:34of the skin doesn't res. And so now that
1:54:36I'm into bodybuilding and I have an
1:54:38aesthetic vision for my physique, um, a
1:54:40huge limiting factor of mine was that
1:54:43like I just had love handles and when
1:54:45they weren't filled with fat anymore,
1:54:46they were filled with water and then
1:54:48they just looked like [ __ ] all the time
1:54:49and I was like this, I can just get them
1:54:50cut out. So I did.
1:54:53>> It really just goes about that deep.
1:54:55>> How did that go?
1:54:56>> Um,
1:54:58so like um, alpha male plastic surgery
1:55:02do Dr. Douglas Steinbrook, Chicago, New
1:55:05York, Beverly Hills. Amazing
1:55:08recommendation.
1:55:08>> You went to Beverly Hills to get your
1:55:10plastic surgery.
1:55:10>> No, I'm not beautiful enough. I went to
1:55:12Chicago where ugly people go.
1:55:13Chicagoans, it's a joke. Stay calm.
1:55:15They're like, "How could you?" You know,
1:55:18typical Chicago. Uh, mind you, I grew up
1:55:20around Detroit, so all the jokes apply.
1:55:22I did meet a gentleman, Crystal, and I
1:55:24met a gentleman yesterday who was from
1:55:25Cleveland, and we were like, "Oh." And
1:55:26he was like, "I know. I know."
1:55:28>> Why? What happens in Cleveland?
1:55:31>> Nothing. Yeah.
1:55:32>> It's a terrible place.
1:55:33>> Do you know that Cleveland has a has had
1:55:35a nickname called the mistake by the
1:55:36lake for a long time?
1:55:38>> No.
1:55:38>> Yeah.
1:55:39>> I grew up in the city Sten Island that
1:55:41it was called the forgotten burrow.
1:55:42>> Yeah. I didn't even know it was a burrow
1:55:44for a long time. Look at that.
1:55:45>> People are like, "I'm from Staten
1:55:46Island." Like, "Where's that?" They're
1:55:47like, "New." Like, nah, I've never heard
1:55:48of that. Like,
1:55:49>> some people call it a dump. Which is
1:55:50unfair
1:55:51>> cuz there used to be a Sen Island dump.
1:55:53>> That's true.
1:55:54>> So,
1:55:54>> I like the [ __ ] that was true in the 40s
1:55:56like follows into the 2000s. Come on.
1:55:58Well, we put a park over it, so that
1:56:00means
1:56:00>> That's nice. Yeah, it's fine.
1:56:02>> I think I I got to fact check that.
1:56:03>> This park smells weird.
1:56:05>> Um,
1:56:07okay. So, I got the procedure and um a
1:56:12lot of it is expectation setting cuz a
1:56:14lot of not all plastic surgeons will be
1:56:17like, "This is what you want. This is
1:56:20what we can give you." And there's a lot
1:56:21of ways it can go wrong in between
1:56:23because they do not want you to have
1:56:25expectations are the the the mother of
1:56:27all like uh
1:56:28>> lawsuits and plastic surgery.
1:56:30>> Yeah. And also just um bad vibes because
1:56:32if you think it's going to make you
1:56:34flawless overnight, you know, a big
1:56:35mistake. Also, the surgery takes one
1:56:37full year to completely recover from,
1:56:39including all water retention in the
1:56:41area. So, if you think you're going to
1:56:42walk out of surgery and look amazing
1:56:43that next day, you have something
1:56:44completely else coming. So, I did all
1:56:46that stuff. Um got the procedure. I've
1:56:50had several other surgical procedures
1:56:51before. Um I've been put under
1:56:53anesthesia before. I generally think
1:56:55it's awesome. And I wake up like I don't
1:56:57know like you're alled up but it's fun.
1:56:59Um
1:57:01there is this thing that when you
1:57:02>> Were the other surgeries aesthetic as
1:57:04well?
1:57:05>> Uh this is my first aesthetic surgery.
1:57:06The other umbilical hernia repair uh and
1:57:09one. Yeah. So totally. Yeah. And so um
1:57:14basically I woke up and my body was
1:57:20screaming at me subconsciously that I
1:57:22had taken a lot of damage. You know like
1:57:24if you uh this is super [ __ ] up but if
1:57:26you injure an animal they start making
1:57:29the yelping sound and they crawl away.
1:57:32That's how I felt. I didn't even know I
1:57:34was supposed to feel like that cuz
1:57:35usually I come out of the procedure and
1:57:37you're on like fentanyl and whatever the
1:57:38hell you guys give people there. Hell
1:57:39yeah. I the doc gave me some extra to
1:57:41take home. I'm kidding. It's a joke.
1:57:42Doc, he's great. And so um I woke up and
1:57:46I was just like
1:57:49what the hell happened to me? And I mean
1:57:51there was like so blood just keeps
1:57:55coming out of the area and all kinds of
1:57:57crazy drainage for like days. We had a
1:57:58hospital hospital bed a hotel room bed
1:58:02covered and just just like World War II.
1:58:05Um, your movement restrictions are
1:58:07profound because because if I if I lean
1:58:09forward this the uh Douglas Steinre, Dr.
1:58:13Douglas Steinre said that he used this
1:58:14term those hideous um a cheese wire
1:58:17effect. When he said that I was like
1:58:22and so like you can barely move. Uh
1:58:24pooping is really difficult because
1:58:26you're neither allowed to bend over so
1:58:27you have to sit down on a toilet
1:58:29completely vertically which is cool. And
1:58:31also if you in the first like several
1:58:33days after surgery overstrain you can
1:58:35get a hematoma. And so you know the what
1:58:39they did was he cut a 270°ree incision
1:58:43from my hips all the way back around my
1:58:45back and then did two roughly 6-in
1:58:47vertical incisions kind of uh in the
1:58:50love handle area side/back
1:58:52and then pulled a crapload of skin out
1:58:54of that. Uh did a bunch of lipo suction
1:58:57and then sucked it all back in etc. And
1:59:00so side to side movements, no go, front
1:59:02to back's nogo. It's really kind of a
1:59:04zombie. You have to wear the compression
1:59:05garment for like 6 weeks. I wore it in
1:59:08total for uh all all together 12 of
1:59:11various compression garments. They had
1:59:13the drains you like the grenade drains
1:59:15or whatever. Showering is weird. I'll
1:59:17say uh my first shower was like 5 days
1:59:19after the procedure. Miraculous. Like
1:59:22you ever gone 5 days without showering
1:59:24other than as a child or whatever? It's
1:59:26a trip, right? Yeah. Camping or some
1:59:28[ __ ] like that. And so um for the I I
1:59:31thought I would miss training. I wasn't
1:59:32allowed to train for 6 weeks. After 6
1:59:33weeks I had another uh 6 weeks of um
1:59:36pretty restricted but full body training
1:59:38and then after that they're just like
1:59:40you everything's healed as much as it
1:59:41will on structural grounds you could
1:59:43just do. So I'm well into that phase
1:59:45now. But I thought six weeks of no
1:59:47training by about week two I was going
1:59:49to go psychotic because other than
1:59:51taking a few weeks off here and there
1:59:52for uh healing reasons for 25 years I
1:59:55have never taken off more than two weeks
1:59:57of training ever. Um and for two weeks I
2:00:01didn't want to train cuz my body felt so
2:00:03screwed up that my brain was like you
2:00:05know I don't do anything. And so that
2:00:07was not fun. Two weeks after that I felt
2:00:10like h I don't know. I feel a little
2:00:12better but I don't know how training
2:00:13would work cuz everything's all [ __ ]
2:00:14up. The last two weeks I was like, if I
2:00:16don't train, man, I don't know what the
2:00:17hell's going to happen. So, that was
2:00:18really tough. The amount of pain was
2:00:20really intense. Um, I will say that I
2:00:23ended up taking a new drug that is a
2:00:27nonopioid pain modulator.
2:00:30>> Um, and it is um it was revoly. It was
2:00:35unbelievable cuz like you can only take
2:00:36Vikes and Perks for so long until you're
2:00:38like, am I a drug addict? And this drug
2:00:41just had like zero side effects as far
2:00:43as I could tell except on clinical
2:00:44trials and in my experience like got the
2:00:47pain down to as much as Vicodin did. It
2:00:50was phenomenal. Um so the recovery was a
2:00:53real pain in the ass. Um way way harder,
2:00:56way more uncomfortable than any diet
2:00:57I've ever done than any training cuz
2:00:59like like I've had leg workouts where I
2:01:01barely like you remember you and I
2:01:02trained legs. You're limping around for
2:01:03like a week. You think like that's a lot
2:01:05of damage. Nah, it's not [ __ ] man. and
2:01:07you cut your body up and your body's
2:01:08like you're done. You know how like um
2:01:11in movies when the good guy gets like
2:01:13real hurt and eventually he saves the
2:01:15day but he's like lying there with a
2:01:16sword and he's like like his girl is
2:01:18she's about to get killed and he's like
2:01:21and he and he stabs the guy and you're
2:01:22like why doesn't he just like wake up
2:01:24and just okay your leg is broken just be
2:01:26athletic just have that raw you can't
2:01:28cuz your brain when it detects mega
2:01:30trauma is like you get regressed back
2:01:32into like fetal form that feeling was
2:01:35weird I was not ready for that [ __ ] so
2:01:38that was my talk about the the pain that
2:01:41you would experience in the rehab.
2:01:42>> So, I'll tell you something about
2:01:43surgeons. When you've done like hundreds
2:01:45of procedures, maybe thousands, like the
2:01:47the best folks have, it becomes so
2:01:50routinized to you that the way you
2:01:52interact about it is very um antiseptic.
2:01:56It's just like there's no it's not
2:01:58nonchalant, barereft of any connected
2:02:00emotion. I'm not sure. Also, most of
2:02:02these doctors haven't had surgery
2:02:03themselves, so they can't come at you
2:02:05from like this is how you're for sure
2:02:06going to feel feel. Um, so like you know
2:02:08they tell you all the stuff, but here's
2:02:10also the reality I think they're maybe
2:02:12basing this on. They don't tell you much
2:02:14about how up you're going to be because
2:02:17after six weeks you look back and you're
2:02:19like that actually went by really fast.
2:02:21Uh, and you and you're in the thick of
2:02:23recovery, you're like this is terrible.
2:02:24They also say that many people within
2:02:26the first several weeks post surgery
2:02:28will be like I made a huge mistake. They
2:02:32surgeons are pretty good at prepping you
2:02:33for that and I was like I'm not going to
2:02:35feel that and I didn't feel that. Dude,
2:02:37I came close. I could I totally see how
2:02:39that would work.
2:02:40>> Do you feel like you made a mistake now?
2:02:42>> God, yeah. I just want my old body back.
2:02:44Really? No. No. No. This is amazing.
2:02:46>> Really?
2:02:46>> Yeah. What's amazing?
2:02:47>> Um, looking at
2:02:50um my body from certain angles. I do
2:02:53this religiously daily anyway. and uh
2:02:57seeing that I don't have love handles
2:03:00and seeing them no longer uh to be
2:03:04artistically expressive here, not
2:03:06poisoning the rest of my physique
2:03:07anymore is uh sublime. It's sublime.
2:03:13It's unbelievable.
2:03:14>> Interesting. Why is that so valuable to
2:03:17you? So, I decided to point my vision at
2:03:22crafting the most aesthetic physique
2:03:23that I was capable of crafting.
2:03:26I got pretty far. Pretty jacked, pretty
2:03:29lean, the whole [ __ ] all the shapes.
2:03:32And there are just probably two main
2:03:36ways in which my physique really doesn't
2:03:38measure up to my own standards. The
2:03:41biggest one was the fact that no matter
2:03:43what look I had, I still had love
2:03:45handles. I mean, I was down to a Dexa
2:03:48confirmed under 6% body fat and I still
2:03:52had love handles. I crossed striations
2:03:54in my glutes. You ever see that in real
2:03:55life where someone flexes their butt and
2:03:56it goes walnut and I still had love
2:03:59handles? At some point, you're like,
2:04:03"What body fat will I not have love
2:04:05handles?" And the answer was there was
2:04:06no because just excess skin. It was just
2:04:08got to be there. And so imagine you're a
2:04:10painter and you you make this grand work
2:04:14and there's just this jut of color that
2:04:16doesn't match and someone's like, "Can
2:04:18you get rid of that?" You're like,
2:04:19"Nope. No eraser I have will get rid of
2:04:21that." At some point it's going to drive
2:04:22you insane. I'm kidding. But it's like
2:04:24it's super giant nuisance. And so I'm
2:04:26like, "Yeah, I've had enough of this
2:04:28shit." So I got to cut the out, man.
2:04:30>> That's it. Does it impact the fact that
2:04:33you're a bodybuilder, but part of your
2:04:36body was no longer built by you, but by
2:04:39Dr. What's his last name?
2:04:42>> Douglas Steinre.
2:04:43>> Steinbrick.
2:04:44>> So now,
2:04:45>> probably one of us.
2:04:46>> Now, yeah. Is uh is now your
2:04:49bodybuilding journey
2:04:51somewhat attributed to him?
2:04:55>> Yes.
2:04:56I consider it a great honor for a master
2:04:59of his craft to apply literal body
2:05:03recomposition science at the highest
2:05:05level to me. Um, one of my favorite,
2:05:09most inspirational short YouTube clip
2:05:12videos that I've ever seen. Um, anyone
2:05:16can Google this or YouTube it. Uh,
2:05:18Frieza, spell it however you like.
2:05:19YouTube will fix it for you. Frieza
2:05:20reborn. Okay, it's Dragon Ball Z. Frieza
2:05:23is an evil villain that inconsequential
2:05:26to the story and he gets like basically
2:05:28cut into pieces, blown into pieces
2:05:30during a battle and then his top
2:05:32engineers and scientists literally put
2:05:34him back together and upgrade him with
2:05:36technology. That little clip about how
2:05:38that happens is religious dogma to me.
2:05:41Like to be a recipient of advanced
2:05:44science and then come out better,
2:05:46however you measure better is so
2:05:49wonderful. Um it's unbel it's just
2:05:51amazing. So for me getting the surgery
2:05:53it was just like this is so sweet like
2:05:57this is exactly everything I believe in.
2:05:59And also like uh for the record I don't
2:06:02resonate much and for people that do I
2:06:05think it's wonderful. I never res
2:06:08resonated much with the pride of having
2:06:10built my physique because here's the
2:06:12thing like I had a pretty cool physique
2:06:13when I was drug free. I didn't care
2:06:15about physique then just did
2:06:16powerlifting and I got really strong.
2:06:18was ever like proud that I built the
2:06:20strength. Like I could tell you I was,
2:06:23but it's not an emotion I've really
2:06:24experienced much. And so I was never
2:06:28really a person in my physique who
2:06:30looked at it and and had some kind of
2:06:32resonant thought in the background
2:06:34flexing in the mirror like this is me,
2:06:36you know, I did this. Like
2:06:37>> so what was giving you joy at that time?
2:06:40>> At the time the process of upgrading
2:06:43like becoming better by whatever.
2:06:45>> Well, isn't that the work?
2:06:47Not only I mean so okay so it's it's
2:06:50work but also it's multiplied by
2:06:51genetics like I started gaining muscle
2:06:54when I was like 15 and I just got lucky
2:06:56enough genetically that uh I got up to
2:06:58like crazy level of muscle mass that
2:07:01most people can only get from drugs uh
2:07:03completely drug-free and it just kept
2:07:05coming and like I didn't even know what
2:07:06like struggling to gain strength. Even
2:07:08if you were genetically
2:07:11weaker or had less muscle, you still
2:07:13would have been making some progress
2:07:14that you could have been feeling joy
2:07:16about.
2:07:18>> Yeah. No, no, no. So, the progress was
2:07:20good, but there's not a part of what
2:07:22loops back effectively to my ego to say
2:07:24you earned this. Um, like also I come
2:07:27from an eastern meditative practice.
2:07:29Like I do Sam Harris's Waking Up app and
2:07:31all that stuff and I've been doing
2:07:33meditation for years. I don't have much
2:07:35of like a like a real ego left in there,
2:07:37man. Like to be totally transparent,
2:07:39like
2:07:39>> but the love handles feed the ego or the
2:07:42lack of love handles.
2:07:44>> It seems like the love handles were
2:07:45blocking happiness.
2:07:46>> No, no, no. I was perfectly happy. I
2:07:49just like wanted to look cooler.
2:07:51>> I think a lot of people think that like
2:07:53>> it's not as deep as most people think it
2:07:55is.
2:07:55>> No, no. I mean, like it's pretty deep
2:07:57cuz this is my sculpture. I made this,
2:07:59you know? Well, that's the thing.
2:08:01>> I made it. But I don't take a lot of
2:08:03pride out of me having made it. I put it
2:08:05together through having sweet genetics
2:08:08for the like you know like not elite but
2:08:10like pretty goddamn good and then uh you
2:08:12know people say like what about the time
2:08:14you spend training I love training it
2:08:16doesn't seem like time to me like I'll
2:08:17put all this suffering like all right
2:08:20suffering through diets yeah that's dope
2:08:22um but like also diets like compared to
2:08:24some of the other [ __ ] I've done in life
2:08:25they're not that hard like and they're
2:08:27hard but but also when you get into a
2:08:29diet you get this like my friend Jared
2:08:31who's a pro bodybuilder he's in the
2:08:32state now where he's towards the end of
2:08:33it my man
2:08:34he's towards the end of a diet, he's in
2:08:36like a zen-like state. Like, if you
2:08:37really bite into the diet and accept it,
2:08:39it it's it's fun. It's radical. It's
2:08:42awesome. So, all of a sudden, if
2:08:43everything's really fun and you're
2:08:45struggling, but you love the struggle,
2:08:47you can't there's nowhere to rest your
2:08:48ego on like I overcame this. And you've
2:08:50overcome a lot of stuff, which is cool.
2:08:52But, um, that's awesome. But what works
2:08:55for me is two things. One is making
2:08:57progress. Like, I love upgrading my
2:08:59physique. Like if you tomorrow I woke up
2:09:02and I was like a flabby 120 lbs and I
2:09:04was 20 years old, I would love it, bro.
2:09:07I just be like, "Let's build, baby.
2:09:09Building is everything." And it's not
2:09:11that I'm building it. It's that it is
2:09:12getting built. And if I have to get in
2:09:14external contractors, hell yeah. And
2:09:16dude, I've taken tons of steroids and
2:09:17[ __ ] like that. How can I possibly take
2:09:19credit for anything? I can't. And I
2:09:20don't need the credit. I just need
2:09:22upgrades. And the second thing is to
2:09:24look sweet. And so my goal is to keep
2:09:26making upgrades to some extent and
2:09:28towards a look that I think is cool.
2:09:30That's it.
2:09:30>> In the level of difficulty, uh, dieting,
2:09:34all the work you put in with exercise
2:09:36and surgery,
2:09:38what's that level?
2:09:39>> Surgery is, uh, super easy, but
2:09:41incredibly painful and dis and and
2:09:43uncomfortable to the extent that dieting
2:09:45and training can never touch. I didn't
2:09:47know that until I got the surgery. I
2:09:49thought I was going to be like, dude, I'
2:09:50I've trained my ass into the ground.
2:09:51I've black belt in jiu-jitsu. I've
2:09:52gotten elbows in my face and all this
2:09:54crazy [ __ ] Blood everywhere. Uh limbs
2:09:56damn near snapped off. And I was like,
2:09:57"Ah, this is fine." And then I was like,
2:09:58"Oh [ __ ] this is damage-wise. It's just
2:10:01orders of magnitude more." And I was
2:10:03like, "This sucks." Like it sucks in a
2:10:04real special way. Um but as far as like
2:10:08overall how much uh I was pushed to my
2:10:10limit in a short time surgery by a long
2:10:13shot cuz those six weeks like blow in a
2:10:14way that's really difficult to conceive
2:10:16of um over the some total area under the
2:10:18curve of my career. Uh yeah, I mean
2:10:21training and diet uh I mean God gez 25
2:10:23years of training and dieting the total
2:10:26amount of suffering you have to go
2:10:27through for that one surgery is not
2:10:29going to do it so 100%. But any one
2:10:31given diet yeah if you were like hey if
2:10:34you could just somehow you discovered a
2:10:36pill to take that you had to do the diet
2:10:39hard but that pill would attack the skin
2:10:41and fat cells of your love handles and
2:10:43you wouldn't need surgery can you go
2:10:44back and do that yes absolutely 100%. Oh
2:10:46my god, I never want to go through
2:10:48surgery again, but I will be going
2:10:49through surgery again probably at least
2:10:51a few more times, right?
2:10:53>> Uh to enhance my physique even further
2:10:55>> to do what?
2:10:56>> Uh so I have at least two ideas. One is
2:10:59I have some uh loose skin and extra fat
2:11:02cells around my lower chest area and uh
2:11:06uh some cases around my back and
2:11:08actually just out of sheer genetics in
2:11:10my tie-in between my uh biceps, triceps,
2:11:13and shoulders like right this area. And
2:11:15those can actually be uh kind of
2:11:16furrowed out with surgery. Much less
2:11:18invasive. Um a procedure called body
2:11:21tight where they basically chemic they
2:11:23they treat your skin with heat so that
2:11:24it contracts. They also lipo out the fat
2:11:26and then microlipo can fix all that. So
2:11:28eventually I'll do something like that
2:11:30because it'll be sweet. And uh I do have
2:11:33hypothetical probable plans for a very
2:11:35ambitious surgery. Um I think it's
2:11:38pretty neat. Um uh so I have this thing
2:11:42where no matter what body fat I have and
2:11:44I've there's tons of YouTube videos of
2:11:45me doing this. I have a big gut just
2:11:48plain old and I can even suck in and do
2:11:50the vacuum pose or my waist looks super
2:11:52tiny and then I just go back to regular
2:11:53and there's just gut that just just
2:11:55comes out. And my parents both have it.
2:11:57It's just like pot belly and it's really
2:11:59just a genetic laxity of the abdominal
2:12:01wall. Has nothing to do with muscle
2:12:03strength and none of that [ __ ] And so
2:12:06there are procedures where they do it's
2:12:09quite extensive. They basically plecate.
2:12:12You know what plecating is? Uh they yeah
2:12:13pull your muscles in kind of to each
2:12:15other and kind of stitch them together.
2:12:17And so you can plecate the obliques. You
2:12:19can plecate the rectus abdominis and it
2:12:21brings your waist in and just in case
2:12:23you were ever going to blow that out and
2:12:25it kind of absorbs after a little while,
2:12:27you get a um polymer sheath installed
2:12:30around your entire like a corset sheath,
2:12:33plastic sheath internal installed and
2:12:36then it constantly keeps your waist to
2:12:38the size that most people of my leanness
2:12:40have. Um but I don't because I just have
2:12:43the flabby gut situation. Um, I have
2:12:46been I thinking about potentially going
2:12:48to that next level of surgery and
2:12:50getting uh my two bottom ribs broken
2:12:53inwards to have an even cooler uh even
2:12:55smaller waist cuz hipwise and some of my
2:12:58bodybuilding photos show this off.
2:13:00Genetically I have a very small waist
2:13:02structurally. The love handles are done.
2:13:04That's cool. Now the guts kind of
2:13:05hanging out and I'm like I could really
2:13:07like stand to get this smaller. And so,
2:13:10um, I think small waists look, uh, uh,
2:13:13in a way that I really like. I'd like to
2:13:16have a small waist. Not just small.
2:13:18Ideally, I'd like to have a tiny waist.
2:13:20I think it's magical. And, uh, I would
2:13:22like to I would like to have that look.
2:13:23That surgery is really intense.
2:13:26>> Yeah. Like the idea of uh, fitness and
2:13:29nutrition uh, and talking about
2:13:31aesthetics and how it could benefit
2:13:32health is interesting because you're
2:13:34benefiting health. That's why I talk
2:13:36about it as a doctor.
2:13:37This is risking your health.
2:13:39>> Oh yeah.
2:13:40>> With no health benefit. Am I right? Like
2:13:43removing your love handles, doing the
2:13:45polymer inside.
2:13:47>> The polymer inside. No. The love handle
2:13:48removal. Yes. Cuz you're removing fat
2:13:50cells. They scream chemical noise into
2:13:52the ether and you have to contra
2:13:53counteract them with drugs. So that's
2:13:55probably net benefit over the long term,
2:13:57but marginally and not as net of a
2:13:59benefit as putting on more muscle and
2:14:00and losing fat through diet and
2:14:02exercise. For sure. And huge risks. So,
2:14:04how do you decide to go down one of
2:14:06these paths that's obviously risk
2:14:09benefit, more risky for your health,
2:14:10less health benefit, and more for the
2:14:12aesthetic? Like, how do you decide which
2:14:14three buckets lead your decision where
2:14:17you put your emphasis?
2:14:18>> I'm really riskaverse in very many
2:14:20aspects of my life, but not risk averse
2:14:22in some other aspects of my life. And
2:14:25for me my journey in modifying my own
2:14:28body and learning about that uh through
2:14:30this aesthetic proced process is quite
2:14:34important and um
2:14:36>> what are you hoping to learn on this
2:14:38journey?
2:14:39>> Oh my god, how long do you have? One is
2:14:42like what things actually work and what
2:14:43things don't. One is through helping
2:14:46other folks. What works for some people
2:14:48doesn't work for other people. Another
2:14:50one is how body image interacts with
2:14:55actual body shape and esteem and all
2:14:58this stuff. Um, another one is social
2:15:01perception. It's been fascinating to see
2:15:03how some people react to because I've
2:15:05been very public about having get the
2:15:06get the surgery. I'll be super public
2:15:07with all the other ones in the future
2:15:09and it's just been ultra fascinating to
2:15:11see how people react to that sort of
2:15:12thing. Uh,
2:15:13>> so part of your drive for wanting to get
2:15:15the surgeries is to see public
2:15:17perception of what it's like to get the
2:15:18surgery. Mhm.
2:15:20>> That's interesting.
2:15:20>> Yeah. Yeah. Just part of it though. But
2:15:22most of it is just like at the end of
2:15:23the day, I want to look like my vision
2:15:26of what a cool physique looks like.
2:15:29>> Even if it means being less healthy.
2:15:31>> Yeah. Oh yeah. Well, I already did that
2:15:32with steroids, so no surprise.
2:15:34>> Well, that's the thing. Like your
2:15:36Renaissance periodization is a way for
2:15:39people to get healthy and you're doing a
2:15:41lot of things that make you unhealthy.
2:15:43>> How does that vibe?
2:15:45One of those is a company in which I
2:15:47help others and the other thing is just
2:15:49me and what do I do with myself?
2:15:52>> So like uh it's tantamount to being so
2:15:54let me ask you a question. Do you drink?
2:15:56>> Sure.
2:15:57>> It's [ __ ] up. You're a doctor. Alcohol
2:16:00is insanely delarious.
2:16:02>> Mhm.
2:16:02>> Trade-off. Drinking is a sweet vibe.
2:16:05>> Right. But if I have a patient who has
2:16:07one drink a week, I'm not going to
2:16:09dissuade them from drinking it. The
2:16:10impacts on their health are probably
2:16:12negligible.
2:16:14Mhm. And if I have people at RP ask me,
2:16:16should I get the surgery? I'd be like,
2:16:18there are very many other questions to
2:16:19ask before the answer to that is yes.
2:16:21These are very, very serious things.
2:16:22>> So, when would you say yes?
2:16:24>> When someone has
2:16:27consistently for years worked on
2:16:30upgrading their muscularity in most
2:16:31cases, consistently for years worked on
2:16:34their diet and physical activity to to
2:16:36contract body fat and has maintained
2:16:39excellent results and consistency and a
2:16:41huge buyin. Like so here's a tragedy of
2:16:44surgery you see in many people. They get
2:16:45in shape over like 6 months or a year
2:16:47better shape and they're like all right
2:16:48I don't want all this gone the excess
2:16:50skin and they never like uh inculcated
2:16:52the the deep consistency and then so as
2:16:54soon as the surgery is over they just
2:16:56like blow the back up and then like need
2:16:57round two of surgery and like you know
2:16:59that's not fun.
2:17:00>> So um
2:17:01>> so long-term consistency
2:17:02>> long-term consistency and a clear need
2:17:05for surgery cuz some people just have
2:17:06like a teeny bit of loose skin. I'm like
2:17:08bro you just keep going and in 3 months
2:17:10>> a teeny bit of loose skin. Someone can
2:17:12say that about you when your tricep
2:17:13issue.
2:17:17>> Well, you were saying that you have
2:17:18>> Oh, not loose skin. Uh, excess fat
2:17:19cells. Yeah.
2:17:20>> Well, they'll say tiny bit of fat. I
2:17:22suppose a tiny bit of loose skin. So,
2:17:23how do you judge?
2:17:24>> So, this my next question comes up is
2:17:26how much do you give a [ __ ] about this?
2:17:28How meaningful is it to you to do this?
2:17:30Because if you currently in your your
2:17:33body have like this much risk tolerance
2:17:36and you care to change this this much
2:17:40smaller amount for sure don't do it.
2:17:42Most those people don't ask about
2:17:43surgery because they can go through that
2:17:44in their own head. the the the real fun
2:17:47cases to consult with are the people who
2:17:49for whom it's really close because some
2:17:51people they're um they so for example
2:17:55you got much leaner but you were way way
2:17:57fat and you have tons of loose hanging
2:17:59skin and you've been dying your whole
2:18:01life to go to the beach and not get
2:18:03stared at for being a fat or for being
2:18:04loose skin freak or whatever the hell
2:18:06that's in your head about it and most
2:18:08other people's heads by the way being
2:18:09transparent here uh it means a ton to
2:18:12you and the risks are like whatever
2:18:14people go skydiving diving. Hell yeah,
2:18:16do surgery. Uh if it's close, you got to
2:18:20think real hard about that [ __ ] cuz
2:18:21surgery is very serious. Very things can
2:18:23go wrong and even if they all go right,
2:18:25the look may not be the look that you
2:18:27want to go for. Um surgeons are do a
2:18:30pretty good job of vetting and consult.
2:18:32I have spoken with many surgeons. Many
2:18:34of them will tell tell you they reject
2:18:37patients all the time. And one of the
2:18:38reasons they reject patients because
2:18:40they know like put this comedically,
2:18:42they say it more charitably, they're not
2:18:44right in the head in the extent that
2:18:47they haven't really swallowed what
2:18:48they're doing and they're being
2:18:50impulsive and they're just going to keep
2:18:52making really weird decisions. A surgeon
2:18:54doesn't want to be associated with that.
2:18:56Um, at the end of the day, it is a
2:18:58hugely personal decision. So, to the
2:19:00extent that I could tell anyone else
2:19:02anything about this, it would be like
2:19:04this is not a game. It's not a joke. um
2:19:07serious downsides, but the upsides can
2:19:09be transformative. Can be. How do you
2:19:12know they're going to be? There's no way
2:19:13to be sure, but you have to check a lot
2:19:15of boxes about you really thought this
2:19:17through and you have at least a pathway
2:19:20hypothetically to how this is going to
2:19:22make things better for you. And if that
2:19:24pathway is the real deal, hey man,
2:19:26surgery is a serious thing that you
2:19:27consider. And I will say as surgical
2:19:29techniques get better, the downside risk
2:19:32falls precipitously and the upside
2:19:35actually goes up a little bit because it
2:19:36just all the scars get smaller and all
2:19:38the curves get better. And so over time
2:19:40surgery is going to be a thing that I
2:19:41think more and more people access
2:19:43because the trade-offs are less and less
2:19:45wacky. I mean imagine getting surgery in
2:19:46like in in in France in like the 70s
2:19:49like some of the first people to get
2:19:50plastic surgery. Like I wouldn't do that
2:19:52[ __ ] Uh there are some procedures that
2:19:54are possible today that only a few
2:19:56doctors do. I'm not going to get that
2:19:58because I don't want to be a the first
2:20:00first person to get them. Uh so that's
2:20:02kind of how I see things. You know,
2:20:04>> in your factors that you take under
2:20:06consideration when telling people
2:20:08whether or not to go for surgery, you
2:20:09didn't touch on mental health at all. Is
2:20:11that a factor for you?
2:20:12>> No, I I did when I said like the the
2:20:14some people aren't right in the head
2:20:15situation.
2:20:16>> In terms of for the person to figure out
2:20:19like is it really your love handle
2:20:21that's bothering you or is it the love
2:20:23handle is just the next thing and then
2:20:25after the love
2:20:26>> Yeah. Yeah. that comes in that remember
2:20:27the margins conversation like it's
2:20:29really close. When it's really close, we
2:20:31know what the surgery is going to get
2:20:32you. What we're um testing it against is
2:20:35how much do you really want it? And uh
2:20:39that's not like an amount. They're not
2:20:40like 8 out of 10. It doesn't tell me
2:20:42much. That's a conversation. Why do you
2:20:44want it? What's going to happen? What if
2:20:47you never get the surgery? What's the
2:20:49How are you going to feel?
2:20:49>> Well, let me ask you that question. How
2:20:50would you feel if you never had your
2:20:52love handle surgery?
2:20:53>> Totally fine. But like I'd feel better
2:20:56if I had it.
2:20:58>> Yeah.
2:20:58>> Based on what like what score, what
2:21:01factor, like every day you wake up and
2:21:03you're like less love handle, I'm one
2:21:05out of 10 more happier.
2:21:09So when I look in the mirror, either for
2:21:11physique purposes or just examining my
2:21:13genitals to make sure everything is in
2:21:15one place. Um
2:21:17before
2:21:19I used to kind of look at my love
2:21:20handles and be like it gets weird,
2:21:23right? When the rest of your body you
2:21:24think is like this is sweet and then you
2:21:26got this one part you're like it gets
2:21:28lame. It gets really lame. And then now
2:21:30when I look at that part of my body even
2:21:32though the scar is really intense and
2:21:34even though most of the inflammation is
2:21:35still there I'm like sweet. And that's a
2:21:39piggy bank you go to all the time and it
2:21:43never gets not cool. M
2:21:45>> um the first time I got like jacked as
2:21:48far as like a regular person would think
2:21:50I'm jacked was probably when I was like
2:21:525'5 and 160 lbs in high school. It's
2:21:56pretty jacked for 5'5. And I I drank
2:21:59from that cup of feeling jacked and I
2:22:01loved it. I loved it so much. Drinking
2:22:04from that cup feels even better today
2:22:05than it did back then. So 25 years or 23
2:22:09years of being more and more jacked and
2:22:12loving it the whole time cuz people
2:22:15think like oh you get the surgery and at
2:22:17first it's cool but then later you just
2:22:19don't care anymore. Uh for my rest of my
2:22:21physique journey I have absolutely not
2:22:23found that to be the case. That's just
2:22:25me though. To your point you could be
2:22:27one of these people that you're like I
2:22:29thought the surgery was going to like
2:22:31make me feel in a deep way more accepted
2:22:34by others and it hasn't.
2:22:37don't do surgery. You got to talk a lot
2:22:38and that's again surgery is very very
2:22:41serious. Um
2:22:43you got to think through the [ __ ] a lot
2:22:45and you have to feel through it a lot.
2:22:47But for some people the answer after all
2:22:48of that will be like yes. Some of those
2:22:50people
2:22:52um
2:22:54they will have loved it and thought it
2:22:55was an excellent decision. A small but
2:22:58notable fraction of people will be like
2:23:0050/50.
2:23:02A vast minority of surgical candidates
2:23:05that go through with plastic surgery do
2:23:07not like how it looks even after
2:23:08revision.
2:23:10>> Those are real people though and there
2:23:12are thousands and thousands of them and
2:23:15that you don't want. So before you get
2:23:18surgery ask yourself very ask yourself
2:23:21the most difficult possible questions
2:23:23you can because you don't undo the
2:23:24surgery. One of those questions is
2:23:28how will I deal if I'm in that percent
2:23:30of regret? There are ways to answer that
2:23:33question. Like the yolo answer works
2:23:35like [ __ ] happens, man. Like I you've
2:23:37made mistakes in life. So have I. Do you
2:23:38think about them all the time? Do you
2:23:39burn them? Of course you do. You're
2:23:40Ashkanazi Jew. That's what the hell we
2:23:42do before we fall asleep and in our
2:23:44dreams and upon waking. But all jokes
2:23:46aside, some [ __ ] you're like, "Yeah, I
2:23:47[ __ ] up. [ __ ] happens. We move on." If
2:23:50you're not ready to swallow that upfront
2:23:52before surgery and you're like, I need
2:23:54this to feel better. And if it doesn't
2:23:56go well, I don't know what I'm going to
2:23:58do. Man, you need some more therapy. I'm
2:24:01not using that as a derisive tactic. I
2:24:03mean, really, you need to think things
2:24:05through way before you go through
2:24:06surgery. And surgery has to be a
2:24:08calculated risk because it is. Do you
2:24:11want to have kids?
2:24:13Uh
2:24:15Mike, like we've been cool for a while,
2:24:17bro. But like that's so We haven't even
2:24:18kissed yet.
2:24:19>> That's okay.
2:24:20>> Well, that's true. Technically, we don't
2:24:21need to kiss. Like, god, how mechanical.
2:24:24>> You're so predictable,
2:24:26>> aren't I? You knew I was going to make
2:24:28it about that.
2:24:29>> Yeah.
2:24:30>> Yeah. Because you're good-looking and
2:24:31you're taking that for granted. Everyone
2:24:33always says yes.
2:24:33>> I think it's cuz you always just go
2:24:34there.
2:24:35>> Yeah, I do always just go there. Um,
2:24:38do I want kids? So, the answer to that
2:24:41is actually quite complicated, but I'll
2:24:43use the simplified version.
2:24:44>> Can you give me the complicated version?
2:24:46>> All right. Waste podcast minutes with
2:24:48this.
2:24:49>> What's these data cards?
2:24:51>> Waste.
2:24:52>> We're monetizing.
2:24:54>> Um,
2:24:56a version of my life with my wife
2:25:00Crystal and I where we had kids
2:25:03would have been really dope in many
2:25:05ways. I think it would have been
2:25:06beautiful. the version of my life with
2:25:09Crystal in which we don't have kids is
2:25:11dope in many ways and beautiful. And so,
2:25:15um, right now I'm not in a position in
2:25:18which I want children. Um, but I have
2:25:22before wanted children and, uh, I think
2:25:25it would be a really awesome thing. And
2:25:27I think a lot of really smart, really
2:25:29wise people correctly say that having
2:25:32children is one of the most meaningful
2:25:34experiences you'll ever have. And that
2:25:37experience lasts all the way through
2:25:39your life. Um I don't just handwave
2:25:41that. That's it's a dope thing. It's
2:25:43clearly real.
2:25:44>> Um but um I don't uh currently have
2:25:48plans for children.
2:25:50>> Yeah. I'm not asking about plans. I'm
2:25:51not going to get that personal. I was
2:25:52just asking from like a philosophical
2:25:54standpoint.
2:25:54>> Oh yeah. Uh so the two answers are like
2:25:57if you were like, "Hey, you're in this
2:25:58new life and you have kids." I'd be
2:25:59like, "All right." Uh and if you're
2:26:01like, "Hey, you're in your current life
2:26:02and you don't have kids." All right.
2:26:03like Chris and I can have kids anytime
2:26:06we want, but we don't for various
2:26:08reasons.
2:26:09>> Sure. You said that at one point in your
2:26:11life you wanted kids and you kind of
2:26:13maybe changed your mind. What led to
2:26:14that change?
2:26:16>> Um,
2:26:18approximately what led to that change is
2:26:20that um Crystal and I had this plan that
2:26:25after she was done with her medical
2:26:26training, we were going to move to
2:26:29Michigan and we were going to start a
2:26:31family. And it's easy for the husband to
2:26:34say cuz you know like oh we're pregnant
2:26:36like m you look the same go but she's
2:26:38pregnant and I just like
2:26:39>> your love handles look the same
2:26:40>> right they look the same they look
2:26:41terrible she gets surgery and um it
2:26:45turned out that Crystal never had a
2:26:48chance to let her career bloom and she
2:26:53never had a chance to go on her own
2:26:56physique journey to look like she wanted
2:26:58cuz all the stuff I'm saying about
2:26:59myself the [ __ ] matters to her too in a
2:27:02different way. Um, but we were like, you
2:27:06know what? Uh, career is a big deal for
2:27:09both of us. And my [ __ ] was going like
2:27:11this and her [ __ ] was going like that.
2:27:12And we're like, yeah, like we could we
2:27:14could have kids now. We could, but we're
2:27:17kind of feeling more like, let's do the
2:27:19career thing. Because when we talked
2:27:22about having kids, it was two sides of
2:27:23the coin. One side was like, it's going
2:27:25to be amazing. the other side was like,
2:27:27"Whoa, we're going to have to really
2:27:29change our life priorities
2:27:30substantially." And we just weren't in a
2:27:33place where we were like, "Yeah, we're
2:27:35totally cool with that." I think a
2:27:37massive mistake some people make is
2:27:40having kids because one of the partners
2:27:42wants it, but the other doesn't. And
2:27:43like, you know, man, that that leads to
2:27:45some gnarliness. Like, you know, like,
2:27:47oh, it's Jimmy's 8year-old birthday
2:27:49party and you're like, that could have
2:27:50been my PhD dissertation, but whatever.
2:27:53like in the end I think everyone o
2:27:55almost everyone thinks it's a great
2:27:56thing but there's rough times there and
2:27:58so we kind of thought like you know her
2:28:00and I take things very seriously like
2:28:02when it matters we're like really
2:28:03focused we weren't going to like
2:28:04half-heartedly have children and so
2:28:07because we were so invested in our
2:28:08career procurement and doing our own
2:28:10thing we were like yeah like kids
2:28:12wouldn't our kids wouldn't appreciate us
2:28:14being like yeah well here you are hate
2:28:17that you cry all the time but it's nice
2:28:20you know uh so we decided we were going
2:28:22to pivot and uh TMI, but you know,
2:28:24Crystal's at that age where we can still
2:28:26theoretically have children, but it
2:28:28would be a little tougher. I think
2:28:30that's an attractable problem that'll
2:28:31get solved probably in the next my usual
2:28:33[ __ ] 5 to 10 years. I mean, every
2:28:34word of that that you'll be able to be
2:28:36any age and have biological children. Uh
2:28:38but like the thing with biological
2:28:40children, man, is like,
2:28:41>> man, they're around a long time. That's
2:28:43a big project. That's an 18-year long
2:28:45project minimum.
2:28:46>> Probably more.
2:28:47>> Right. Exactly. And so for that reason,
2:28:50we were like, "Yeah, we're going to kind
2:28:52of do our own thing in in some way." And
2:28:54we definitely have parental vibes um
2:28:57like uh that we just basically laser
2:29:00focus onto our dog. You know how that
2:29:02works. And it's just I mean she's the
2:29:04baby. And uh it's really fun to like dog
2:29:07parent or whatever. There's orders of
2:29:09magnitude of complexity between the
2:29:11other. It's not like we're What I'm
2:29:13trying to say is we're not like we just
2:29:15can't connect to like why people would
2:29:16have children like oh they're gross
2:29:18because people think like children are
2:29:19annoying they're gross
2:29:20>> people putting that image on you like
2:29:22why feel the need to defend that. Okay
2:29:24>> not defend it just to clarify cuz like
2:29:25here's the thing if you think kids are
2:29:27gross and annoying like you're not like
2:29:28wrong like a lot of parents listening to
2:29:30this are like [ __ ] you ever seen my
2:29:32house? Um but like that's not why we
2:29:35didn't want the [ __ ] Uh for us it was
2:29:37like we do have that drive to be
2:29:38caretakers and stuff like that but it
2:29:41was like other priorities were kind of
2:29:43at the four.
2:29:43>> Yeah.
2:29:44>> If you had the choice given that you're
2:29:46so passionate about genetics and
2:29:48aesthetics
2:29:50to make your child
2:29:52have the chance at being beautiful
2:29:54meaning that you would just leave it up
2:29:56to chance or you could guarantee that
2:29:58your child will be an eight but it's a
2:30:01risk that they'll have something bad
2:30:03happen to their health. Is that a risk
2:30:05you would take? You would want the
2:30:06control over their aesthetics.
2:30:09>> I'd need to see the relative risk
2:30:11ratios.
2:30:12>> So there would be a situation where it
2:30:15would be in value to have the chance of
2:30:18them being beautiful.
2:30:19>> Yeah.
2:30:20>> Why?
2:30:20>> It matters to people, matters how they
2:30:22look, it matters to kids a great deal. I
2:30:25I keep coming back to this and I think
2:30:27it's important
2:30:29how your middle school goes. And I use
2:30:31middle school just as a sampling of
2:30:32where maybe it's most intense, but for
2:30:33some people it's more intense in high
2:30:34school, some in elementary. Um, and if
2:30:38you happen to be very low on the
2:30:39attractiveness scale, you can have a the
2:30:42kind of time that I wouldn't damn
2:30:44anybody with. It's a real thing. We are
2:30:48I think we are to be under no illusion
2:30:50that there is this um what's the
2:30:52technical logical fallacy? The Nirvana
2:30:55fallacy that everything's all right in
2:30:57the end. That's not true. It's not true
2:30:59at all. I think that if you grow up and
2:31:02you have the certain kind of psychology
2:31:04matched with a certain kind of life
2:31:05experience from being not so attractive,
2:31:08and I'm using that politely, um, you can
2:31:11have a real bad time at it. And if there
2:31:13was some kind of corrective factor that
2:31:16had some sort of risk, we would really
2:31:18have to look at what risk that was.
2:31:20>> Um,
2:31:22mind you, the magnitude of risk matters
2:31:24a ton,
2:31:25>> of course. Yeah. So, but uh basically
2:31:27that's a statistical way of me saying
2:31:30>> it's very important.
2:31:30>> How you look is very important. It's not
2:31:34the most important thing in the world.
2:31:35It's not even close. But there's lots of
2:31:37very important things that are not the
2:31:39most important and they still matter
2:31:41because look, the whole aesthetic
2:31:42revolution is the most first world
2:31:44problem ever. You imagine someone from
2:31:46Ethiopia being like, "I'm sorry, you
2:31:47serve with what? To make people who have
2:31:50all the food and money they want in the
2:31:52world to look marginally better when
2:31:53they're 50? The [ __ ] is wrong with you?"
2:31:55be like, "Yo, facts." You know what I'm
2:31:56saying? But it's a real thing. It's a
2:31:58real thing nonetheless.
2:32:00>> If there was a chance that you didn't
2:32:02have the genetics available to you, the
2:32:04genetic modification, and your child was
2:32:06born unattractive, what or unesthetic,
2:32:09what conversation would you have with
2:32:11your child? How would you deal with it?
2:32:15>> I would try to do two things.
2:32:19Fill them with as much love and joy and
2:32:21hope as possible.
2:32:24like I'm real wacky. I get along with
2:32:27kids great because they think they're
2:32:29wacky and I'm like, "Ah, there's levels
2:32:30to this." I'm like, "Holy [ __ ] you're
2:32:31like eight in there." I'm like, "Oh, I'm
2:32:33much younger than eight in there." And
2:32:34so we'd be having a grand old time. And
2:32:37that person, that child would never feel
2:32:40anything other than fundamentally loved
2:32:42and accepted on my end.
2:32:45And I would prepare them actively,
2:32:48probably not much, or to any extent, for
2:32:50the potential that other people think
2:32:51you look so not great. and they say mean
2:32:53things to you. But if they came back and
2:32:56said, "Hey, people were making fun of
2:32:58high look at school," then I would be
2:33:00interested in having many very in-depth,
2:33:02very compassionate, but realistic,
2:33:04scaled to how old they are and how well
2:33:06they take things conversations about how
2:33:07do we deal with such a thing? Cuz they
2:33:09could say like, "Well, you know, uh, is
2:33:13it true that I'm ugly?" And I'd be like,
2:33:14"Bro, that's like, you know, everyone
2:33:16has their cup of tea, man. You look
2:33:18great to me." And they're like, "Well,
2:33:20you know, is it true that I'm
2:33:22statistically ugly?" Be like, "God damn,
2:33:23kid. You're going to math camp and
2:33:24coding camp saying some [ __ ] like that
2:33:26when you're eight." You know, but if
2:33:27they were old enough to understand that
2:33:29human variation is a thing, I'd be like,
2:33:31"Look, how do you appraise your average
2:33:33attractiveness?" They'd be like, "I
2:33:34appraise it fairly low." I'd be like, "I
2:33:36don't like what do you think?" Like,
2:33:37well, you're my kid. I'm not going to
2:33:38ever see you objectively. Jesus Christ.
2:33:40But like, if you think that's the thing,
2:33:42maybe it is a thing. And then here's
2:33:44your next question to yourself. Kid, do
2:33:46I get a name? Can I have a name? What's
2:33:47my kid? No. No. You name the kid. Come
2:33:48on. This is
2:33:49>> I'm naming your child.
2:33:50>> Come on. Please, man. It's an honor.
2:33:51>> Uh,
2:33:55>> don't say Mike. Don't do it.
2:33:56>> No, no, no, no. Obviously, that's
2:33:58>> There must be three of us.
2:33:58>> That's too predictable. Um, I'm going to
2:34:01make the name so it's unisex.
2:34:04>> Well, what
2:34:05>> canyon?
2:34:07>> What are we in, Hollywood?
2:34:09>> You sort of are. Um,
2:34:10>> your mother and I conceived you in the
2:34:11Grand Canyon. It was miraculous.
2:34:14>> Um, all right. We're gonna do something
2:34:16where it could be either way. Sam. Sam,
2:34:20um
2:34:22the big question after you have
2:34:23appraised your own attractiveness to
2:34:25other people
2:34:27is to do two things. One is it's quite
2:34:33easy nowadays to um get a more realistic
2:34:38appraisal in a variety of more objective
2:34:41places for like there's beauty and
2:34:44aesthetics people that can tell you like
2:34:45actually you're delusional. are really
2:34:47good-looking. Um, and there's other
2:34:50play, you know, the other thing is like,
2:34:52yeah, you know, like we're all, you
2:34:53know, they say it very softly. So, one
2:34:55is a realistic appraisal just to make
2:34:56sure you're not too much in your head.
2:34:58And the other one is like,
2:34:59>> so you would encourage them to try and
2:35:01find that
2:35:02>> maybe. Yeah. Sure. Well, cuz like a lot
2:35:04of times kids just like have a way lower
2:35:06appraisal of how they are than as a
2:35:08reality.
2:35:08>> Sure. So, you would want them to be hit
2:35:10with the reality that in this situation
2:35:12they're one.
2:35:13>> Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, so the the reality
2:35:16hits either way. It's not up to us. Do
2:35:19you want that person knowing they're
2:35:20going into a minefield or do you want
2:35:22everybody here's flowers go skipping
2:35:23around that? But what I'll say is this,
2:35:26like you look like how you're going to
2:35:27look.
2:35:29You got two things to do about it. One
2:35:32is understand that that is a reality and
2:35:36and don't ever let anyone get to you
2:35:38making fun of you because you're just
2:35:40saying a true thing. Like if you call me
2:35:42short, I'll be like, "Yep, that's
2:35:42correct." And you're like, "Aren't you
2:35:44feel bad about that?" Like, "No, I know
2:35:45I'm short. Next question." You're like,
2:35:46"H, that didn't work." Right? Because
2:35:48you can you can preempt people if you're
2:35:49real clever and fast. It' be like some
2:35:51bully's about to be like be like, "Oh,
2:35:53wow. I'm ugly. I'm ugly. My teeth are
2:35:54all drop. Is that what you're going to
2:35:55say? What about the dumb [ __ ] you have
2:35:56in your head? I can make fun of you
2:35:57better than you can make fun of me." And
2:35:58like, you know, bullies are like, "What
2:35:59the see myself?" You know the Eminem
2:36:01thing.
2:36:01>> Of course, I watch 8 mile. It's
2:36:03>> my man. I'm You know what I'm saying?
2:36:04I'm I was born on 8 Mile like physically
2:36:06on the road, Mike.
2:36:07>> Guy's an MC. I know what everything he's
2:36:09going to say against me.
2:36:11>> I'm so good. So,
2:36:13>> I still remember the lyrics.
2:36:14>> Dude, are you Eminem?
2:36:16>> Yeah.
2:36:16>> The story was actually based on Dr.
2:36:18Mike. Ah, that's true. That's true.
2:36:21>> Damn. Maybe you do have a career in rap
2:36:24music ahead of you still. Um, but the
2:36:27thing I would try to get across the most
2:36:29is first of all, live that [ __ ] Accept
2:36:32your reality. Don't be under any
2:36:34illusions. And two is what are you going
2:36:38to do to
2:36:41improve the very rest of you that
2:36:43matters so much more to be the best that
2:36:46you can be. Because I got I got news for
2:36:48you, kid. When you get older and you
2:36:50make some money, your appearance is cart
2:36:52blanch where the hell you want it to be.
2:36:54Dude, plastics is getting really crazy
2:36:57and like it's just not going to matter.
2:36:58So what you can do now and if it's a
2:37:00boy, child, Sam, I'd be like, "Check
2:37:02this out, pimp. Here's what really
2:37:03matters." I would love to give a lot of
2:37:05kids the conversation what really
2:37:06matters in life. Check this out. You're
2:37:08going to study real hard in school cuz
2:37:10everyone that doesn't a [ __ ] idiot
2:37:12and for not doing it. And you are going
2:37:14to have Napoleonic plans for success and
2:37:18you are going to exploit those plans and
2:37:20you are going to be incredibly
2:37:21successful at something you love to do
2:37:23that consumes every waking hour of your
2:37:25day. And you're going to get really rich
2:37:26doing it. And then everything else you
2:37:28want is just a matter of buying the
2:37:29[ __ ] And that's how life works. Because
2:37:33a lot of people are like, "I'm in
2:37:34seventh grade and I'm having a bad
2:37:35time." And be like, "Guess what matters
2:37:37about seventh grade when you're grown up
2:37:38other than your memories and trauma from
2:37:40it?" Nothing. Nothing. It seems at the
2:37:43time it's the biggest thing in the
2:37:44world. But it just doesn't matter. And
2:37:46almost all the really cool fun you're
2:37:47going to have comes later in life
2:37:49anyway. I wish somebody I had a real
2:37:51tough time in my mid20s as a personal
2:37:54trainer in New York. Just like a rough
2:37:56time. And one of my clients who was a in
2:37:57his 40s, he was um hedge fund guy, super
2:38:00super wealthy, really good-looking, just
2:38:02amazing. He had it all. And he noticed I
2:38:04was sad one day. He was like, "Check
2:38:05this out. Your 20s are going to suck.
2:38:07Just swallow it. Your 30s are going to
2:38:08be a lot better. Your 40s are going to
2:38:09be [ __ ] unbelievable." And I was
2:38:11like, "Okay." But hearing it from him
2:38:13cuz he was such a pimp. I was like,
2:38:14"Dope." It hit. And I never forgot. And
2:38:18hilariously, he was completely correct.
2:38:19It's like I wish someone in my life when
2:38:21I was much younger been like, "Hey kid,
2:38:22none of this [ __ ] really matters, bro."
2:38:24You know, people take middle school
2:38:25really seriously. It'd be cool if an
2:38:27adult who was super dope and had lots of
2:38:28success sat down with you and was like,
2:38:30"I know that you're feeling a lot of
2:38:31feelings and they're all valid. They're
2:38:32all super valid, but just remember like
2:38:34in the end, in the end, the shit's all a
2:38:36joke. All of it."
2:38:37>> I mean, that isn't that the slogan, it
2:38:39gets better.
2:38:40>> I mean, yeah, 100%. And
2:38:42>> kids are told that.
2:38:43>> They are told that, but they're usually
2:38:44told that in ways are just very vague in
2:38:47general from people that do not
2:38:49demonstrate with their daily life that
2:38:50things for them have gotten better. Uh
2:38:52cuz you know people can tell you that
2:38:54and you just don't believe it
2:38:55whatsoever. But I have my way of using
2:38:58colorful adjectives and meeting children
2:38:59at their level to tell them [ __ ] that
2:39:00they're like nah this is clearly not. So
2:39:02people talk to you like an adult to a
2:39:03child. Like if you level with children
2:39:05and you swear a little bit with them
2:39:07they're like this is a person who's like
2:39:08real real and I don't think they're with
2:39:10me. Like cuz you know parents will say
2:39:12very nice things to the kid they don't
2:39:13really mean. And kids can tell a lot of
2:39:15the times, but if you really level with
2:39:17kids, you're like, "Look, man. I'm
2:39:18telling you right now, man." Like, and
2:39:19and and I would love to answer
2:39:21questions. You tell me how I'm wrong.
2:39:23You tell me why today in seventh grade
2:39:25matters a ton, and I will talk you
2:39:26through it, and I will tell you what
2:39:27matters about it, and what doesn't, cuz
2:39:29that one cart blanch statement is
2:39:30[ __ ] Like, of course it matters.
2:39:32Chelsea won't take me to the prom or
2:39:34whatever. Is that the wrong time scale,
2:39:36seventh grade dance? Um, really
2:39:39communicating with humans is tough to
2:39:41begin with. Um, but very valuable. So,
2:39:44if I had kids, I would try to just be
2:39:47like as real of a person to them as
2:39:49possible and a super awesome teammate
2:39:51that's always on their side for their
2:39:53long-term view and telling them like,
2:39:55look, whatever. Like, did you expect to
2:39:57have all the best things all at once?
2:39:59Did you expect perfection was going to
2:40:00be the nature of your life? No. All
2:40:02right. Dope. You got some good things,
2:40:03you got some bad things. Maximize the
2:40:05good things. Accept the bad things until
2:40:07you can change them later. That's it.
2:40:09There's been some
2:40:12tabloid stories, magazine stories of
2:40:15teens 13, 14 years old getting plastic
2:40:18surgery. Would you recommend that for
2:40:20your child if they felt some kind of way
2:40:22about a part of their body?
2:40:24>> It was a great question.
2:40:28I'd be real careful about how I say
2:40:30this, otherwise I'll be getting a
2:40:31mailbomb.
2:40:34>> Why are you trying to destroy this
2:40:36podcast? A mailbomb?
2:40:39Do you want me to die in some other way
2:40:40that's more creative? Is that what
2:40:41you're saying?
2:40:42>> No.
2:40:42>> Okay. Uh you're like assassinations for
2:40:46the sniper rifle is so much easier. Um
2:40:50it's one thing
2:40:55to pat yourself on the back as you
2:40:57probably should be doing and calling
2:40:59yourself a good person which you
2:41:00probably are not. You royal you.
2:41:03that you accept kids for what they are
2:41:05and you don't want them bought into this
2:41:06Hollywood toxic plastic surgery [ __ ]
2:41:09and it's super valid,
2:41:11but there's a part of it that is you pay
2:41:13zero cost of any of that [ __ ] and you
2:41:15get to feel real nice about yourself
2:41:16that you prevented the kids from doing
2:41:18that.
2:41:20And it's usually the right answer
2:41:23because when you're a kid, your ability
2:41:24to appraise how bad of a time you're
2:41:26having, even that sucks. Things that
2:41:28seem like the end of the world to you
2:41:29today, tomorrow, or like whatever.
2:41:32And so massive decisions like having
2:41:34plastic surgery are like just generally
2:41:36outside of your realm of proper
2:41:37decision-making and thus are not like a
2:41:39good idea for you to even decide on
2:41:41which means we just do default consensus
2:41:43which is just don't do anything. So
2:41:46that's real as [ __ ] There's another
2:41:48side of that story and that side starts
2:41:50to figure itself out depending on how
2:41:52bad it really is and the kind of
2:41:53childhood you want your kid to have.
2:41:57If what they're dealing with
2:41:59aesthetically is a minor procedure, it
2:42:02does not interfere with overall facial
2:42:04engagement. Imagine you have a kid who
2:42:07has like a giant wart that's like one
2:42:10inch off their face,
2:42:13right?
2:42:13>> Like protruding
2:42:14>> protruding and it's a different color
2:42:16than the rest of their face and they're
2:42:18six.
2:42:20You got to send them through school with
2:42:21that [ __ ] on their face. Well, I'm
2:42:23saying cosmetic surgery, not like bar
2:42:26medical deformity.
2:42:27>> Hold on. Hold on a second. Yeah. Yeah.
2:42:28Well, not really like the doctor.
2:42:30>> I mean, like a crooked nose versus a
2:42:33giant thing that's changing your face
2:42:35completely.
2:42:36>> Just just to illustrate a point. Just to
2:42:37illustrate a point. Um, most people
2:42:40would take their total um excision of
2:42:44plastic surgery as a consideration off
2:42:47the table when you're like, listen, the
2:42:48doctors are going to just ablate the
2:42:50thing. You just won't have it anymore.
2:42:52Now you lose something there. You do you
2:42:54lose the potential mental strength that
2:42:56you get from having to go through life
2:42:58with that freaky [ __ ] on your face.
2:43:01You gain something too which is your
2:43:03childhood becomes like I don't know
2:43:04infinitely more happy because people are
2:43:06constantly telling you you have
2:43:08something on your face. Where is it?
2:43:10Which side? Do you see this little
2:43:11little thing right here on my ear? Sure.
2:43:13Yeah. When I was a kid endlessly from
2:43:16almost all children I heard about it day
2:43:17and night. kids are ruthless in a way
2:43:19that adults I think just forget
2:43:22>> or have never experienced because they
2:43:23were born perfect like
2:43:26he's like no that was not a joke I was
2:43:27born perfect oh please continue um so on
2:43:31the extremes we can see that there are
2:43:32reasons to do reconstructive surgery if
2:43:35the problem is insane enough that you're
2:43:37like this kid's going to have terrible
2:43:38time with this and it doesn't hurt their
2:43:40growth trajectory or some some [ __ ] like
2:43:41that so if your crooked nose is off by
2:43:45just a little then the answer is like ah
2:43:47kid you know what I'm saying when you're
2:43:4818, get that [ __ ] handled. You're good.
2:43:50You'll learn a lot of lessons and you'll
2:43:51big personality. You get better. It's
2:43:53still not clear to me. People will say
2:43:54like if you're beautiful, you don't have
2:43:56to develop a personality, but if you're
2:43:57ugly, you do. I actually say zero
2:43:59literature to confirm that. And
2:44:00mechanistically, I don't know how that
2:44:02adds up. Uh it could very well be that
2:44:04people who are physically unattractive
2:44:05just have a worse time of everything.
2:44:07It's just worse. That could very well
2:44:10be. I'm not sure that it is, but it
2:44:11could be. And so, but you say, "Okay,
2:44:14it's a little deformity. Whatever. Kid,
2:44:15everyone's different. Fine. Get out of
2:44:16Also surgery's risky and you know your
2:44:18nose might be growing still and who
2:44:19knows but if it is a significant enough
2:44:22deformity
2:44:23>> I guess what's the line?
2:44:24>> Oh it's nuanced. Oh it's entirely
2:44:26individual dependent and it requires a
2:44:28lot of thought and a lot of
2:44:29consternation 100%. So there's no clic
2:44:32if I had a clear line that'd be the
2:44:33first answer I'd give. But um what I
2:44:36want to demonstrate with this answer
2:44:37here is that it is absolutely not a
2:44:40clear yes or no question. Should
2:44:41children be receiving plastic surgery
2:44:43for cosmetic benefits? Because the
2:44:45answer is absolutely not until you get
2:44:48to a kid's face that you're like, "Okay,
2:44:51yeah, for your for you, yes." And
2:44:52they're like, "Aren't you mangling that
2:44:54child?" Be like, "Did you see them
2:44:56before the surgery? They were born
2:44:58mangled." And that's a thing, you know,
2:45:00cleft lips and stuff like that. Like
2:45:02that's
2:45:03>> scars. I mean,
2:45:03>> yeah. Well, think about this. A cleft
2:45:05lip.
2:45:06>> Uh
2:45:06>> I meant something on the level of uh a
2:45:09love handle,
2:45:12>> like body surgery. I mean on whatever
2:45:15level of deformity you deem love handles
2:45:17to be
2:45:18>> for me.
2:45:19>> Yeah.
2:45:20>> Oh, hell no. No. That's icing on the
2:45:22cake. No, little kid. It doesn't matter.
2:45:24Are you not?
2:45:26>> Uh, no. Hell, this is like this is like
2:45:28my body
2:45:29>> pinning their ears back. I don't know
2:45:31something.
2:45:31>> I don't know what that is.
2:45:32>> Like kids have sometimes ears that come
2:45:34out and then they get them pinned back.
2:45:37It's a pretty small surgery, but
2:45:39>> but people don't want to be teased for
2:45:42having ears that come out. So, parents
2:45:44do it or if they have a oblong nose or
2:45:46something.
2:45:47>> Yeah. I think that's in the conversation
2:45:48for totally reasonable stuff. What what
2:45:50you don't want, I think, is for your
2:45:539-year-old to be like, I want to look
2:45:56like Kim Kardashian in her prime, and I
2:45:58want to look like that right now. And be
2:45:59like, oh boy, no. Um there's a
2:46:03difference also between attending to
2:46:04clear obvious I don't want to call them
2:46:06deformities but irregularities that no
2:46:08one likes almost no one likes uh versus
2:46:11uh you look totally cool but you want
2:46:13enhancement
2:46:15>> as a young child um what you think
2:46:18enhancement should and would look like
2:46:19is already kind of out of your realm to
2:46:20even comprehend and if there's any
2:46:23probability that it screws up your
2:46:25development or is a very big surgical
2:46:27risk uh the probably the answer is no
2:46:30but I guess what I'm trying to get in my
2:46:32answer get across is yeah to repeat
2:46:35myself it's not cut and dry and u there
2:46:39are going to be lots of people in my
2:46:40comments who think it's cut and dry and
2:46:43it's not again it feels really amazing
2:46:46to do two things be super pro body
2:46:49positivity and be like every way a kid
2:46:52wants to look different we should allow
2:46:53them to do that if your 8-year-old wants
2:46:55a different nose and you have the money
2:46:56you should it's the same as you they're
2:46:58a person like you they don't want to be
2:46:59ugly just like you got the no surgery,
2:47:01so should they. And they're going to pat
2:47:03themselves a lot on the back and say
2:47:04they're really good people for thinking
2:47:05that. And you know what? They are good
2:47:06people for thinking that. There's going
2:47:08to be another group of people that are
2:47:09never ever surgery for children because
2:47:10they're not adults. They don't know what
2:47:12they want. And this whole reliance on um
2:47:14how you look and overvaluing that is
2:47:16toxic and it needs to [ __ ] stop.
2:47:18They're also totally right. They're
2:47:19going to pat themselves on the back a
2:47:20lot. Neither one of those really awesome
2:47:22things that gives us lots of feelings
2:47:24gets us to a nuanced answer on a case-
2:47:25by case basis.
2:47:26>> Right. Uh I'm going to ask you
2:47:29ultimately a question about spectrum but
2:47:31uh I'm going to start it with two uh
2:47:33different starting points. Uh there's
2:47:36two people uh one on my right, one on my
2:47:38left. Uh person on my right is your
2:47:40biggest fan, watches all your videos,
2:47:44philosophical videos, nutrition videos,
2:47:47supports your brand, is always there for
2:47:49you.
2:47:52Summarize how what that person thinks of
2:47:54you. I have almost no idea, man.
2:47:56>> I mean, you you you're you can summarize
2:47:59it to some degree.
2:48:00>> Oh, I I really uh I'm really glad you
2:48:02asked this.
2:48:02>> So, maybe we could start it from the
2:48:03other side.
2:48:04>> Okay.
2:48:05>> Person on my left hates what you stand
2:48:08for, constantly commenting on Reddit
2:48:10threads negatively about you. What does
2:48:12that person think of you?
2:48:14>> Those people actually make it very clear
2:48:15what they think about me,
2:48:16>> which is what
2:48:17>> um
2:48:19speak way outside of my depth way too
2:48:20often.
2:48:22sound very self- assured when the
2:48:24reality is I'm probably not. Um,
2:48:27take a tone of authority about things
2:48:29I'm not nearly as good at as they would
2:48:31like me to be good at to have a tone of
2:48:32authority. Like I'm a physique expert,
2:48:34but my physique to them compared to the
2:48:36best in the world sucks total.
2:48:38Um,
2:48:42those probably are really big ones. Oh,
2:48:44and when I'm in a mood, I say really,
2:48:46really hateful, nasty things that
2:48:49clearly point to my insufficient ego and
2:48:53not so great thoughts about myself.
2:48:55>> Mhm.
2:48:56>> There's probably more, but those might
2:48:58be some of the core of that.
2:49:00>> What's the other person saying?
2:49:02>> I love your [ __ ]
2:49:04>> Why?
2:49:05>> No, that's what they say. They almost
2:49:06never say.
2:49:07>> Come on. They do.
2:49:08>> They don't, Mike.
2:49:09>> So, you don't read the You You've only
2:49:11read this negative
2:49:12>> critic. Yeah. Yeah. No. So what I'm
2:49:13saying is positive crit positive
2:49:15feedback is almost always very general
2:49:17and negative criticism is is much more
2:49:20often highly specific.
2:49:23That's a reality. Here's another thing.
2:49:26I've met zero people in real life as far
2:49:28as I can tell. Uh with a few exceptions,
2:49:31I guess almost zero people that are that
2:49:34person. Because in real life, no one
2:49:35ever talks to me that doesn't like me.
2:49:37They just don't.
2:49:38>> So when they talk to you in real life,
2:49:39what did they say positive to you?
2:49:42Um,
2:49:43you're Dr. Mike. Yes, dude. I love your
2:49:46[ __ ] Thank you, dude. I love your
2:49:47philosophy channel. I just think about
2:49:49that [ __ ] all the time, dude. Amazing. I
2:49:51love it. Can I take a picture? Yeah, you
2:49:52bet.
2:49:54>> I mean, that's that's a starting point.
2:49:56>> Yes. It's It's not very content heavy.
2:49:58>> Um, it's
2:49:59>> anything I tell you on that is ideas
2:50:01about myself that I like. It's not from
2:50:03real humans.
2:50:04>> Well, that's what I'm saying. To try and
2:50:05do it from someone else's standpoint.
2:50:07And then,
2:50:07>> but that's just projection.
2:50:09>> Yeah. or or your summary of what you
2:50:11feel objectively is said to you.
2:50:13>> What I'm saying is there's almost
2:50:14nothing said to me that has much
2:50:16substance on the positive side, but lots
2:50:18of substance on the negative side.
2:50:20>> So, how would these two people argue if
2:50:22the person on the left started saying
2:50:24all the negative criticism you said, how
2:50:26would this person defend you?
2:50:31>> Like in an ideal world or how do I think
2:50:33realistically they would defend you?
2:50:34Like if someone said something like,
2:50:36"Oh, speaks outside of his depth, says
2:50:38mean things when they get angry." What
2:50:40would this person counter to that be?
2:50:42That's not true.
2:50:43>> Yeah. Uh
2:50:45they would usually do an ad hominemum
2:50:47attack on that other person.
2:50:49>> So be like, "So what depth are you
2:50:50speaking from? I checked your profile.
2:50:51You look like shit."
2:50:53Not a lot of productive comments in
2:50:55YouTube.
2:50:56>> Got it. So not not as clear. Uh, I mean
2:51:00I know how I would argue, but I would be
2:51:02literally projecting onto a person who
2:51:05would support me.
2:51:06>> Well, how would you do it
2:51:08>> on my best day or on my worst day?
2:51:10>> I can do both.
2:51:12>> Well, right now I can go either way.
2:51:14>> So, perfect. Give me the middle ground.
2:51:16>> Oh, it really it really is biodal.
2:51:19>> Come on. It can't be biodal. All right.
2:51:21Give me both then.
2:51:22>> Both.
2:51:24The following is an example. I do not
2:51:26endorse the following take in case it
2:51:29definitely gets clipped out of context.
2:51:31>> Okay.
2:51:34Uh, cool story. Don't give a you're
2:51:38irrelevant and when you see me in life,
2:51:40you'll probably never look at my
2:51:41direction.
2:51:44Not very nice.
2:51:45>> Why is that not
2:51:46>> mostly false? I don't think any
2:51:48>> Wait, what's mostly false? Everything I
2:51:50said is if I had to examine it from a
2:51:52more objective perspective is not true
2:51:54except for the last part which they
2:51:55generally don't look in my direction.
2:51:56That's just observed reality. Um
2:52:00I don't like in my best self to degrade
2:52:04people. I don't think I'm more relevant
2:52:06than anybody else. It's easy when you
2:52:08have a platform and you're all famous
2:52:09and rich or whatever to be like you
2:52:10don't matter. You're a [ __ ] insult.
2:52:12You don't even have a profile picture.
2:52:12You have a private account. You suck.
2:52:14Oh, by the way, looked at your pictures.
2:52:15you should justing. There's no reason
2:52:17for you to keep talking to me cuz how
2:52:19dare you. I'm anointed and you're
2:52:20nothing. Every part of that is toxic as
2:52:23and I don't mean any single part of it.
2:52:24When I'm upset, I sure [ __ ] want to say
2:52:26stuff like that. Every now and again I
2:52:28do and I always feel like that's so bad
2:52:30to say to someone cuz that person first
2:52:32of all is a human being and they're
2:52:34awesome
2:52:34>> sometimes. Or they're a bot.
2:52:36>> Oh, I love the bots. The bots just don't
2:52:38clap back too much. Um and uh you know
2:52:41everyone fundamentally all humans have
2:52:44the same value. That's how society
2:52:46works. And uh every time I meet real
2:52:48humans in the world, uh I am always
2:52:51almost always over the top impressed
2:52:53with how wonderful humans really are.
2:52:55And a lot of times I know for a fact
2:52:57that people who criticize a lot when I
2:53:00want to clap back at them and I dig
2:53:03through their profile, I realize like,
2:53:06oh man, life brought this person down a
2:53:08lot already. I'm not going to add fuel
2:53:10to that fire. I just say, hey man, like
2:53:12I feel you. I'm a piece of [ __ ] a lot
2:53:14and my physique sucks.
2:53:15>> You're looking at them.
2:53:16>> Yeah.
2:53:16>> Like from uh a part of is there any
2:53:20truth to their criticism or anything you
2:53:22agree with?
2:53:23>> Yes. Absolutely. The the thing is most
2:53:25of the people that will write criticism
2:53:27um there's like a an emotional uh
2:53:30minimum that has to trigger you to start
2:53:32typing and that emotional minimum is
2:53:35quite high. And so almost all of my
2:53:37critiques about me are insanely
2:53:38emotionally uh salient and thus tend to
2:53:41be wildly irrational in the sense that
2:53:43they're massively overexaggerated.
2:53:45Like like facts wrong and stuff like one
2:53:47of the things about me is that at my
2:53:49last show apparently I blamed the judges
2:53:52for not turning me pro. I play sixth.
2:53:55Okay. So first of all I never blamed the
2:53:57judges. I said I had a [ __ ] contest
2:53:59color and I might have bumped up a place
2:54:00maybe uh with better color which is has
2:54:04a decent probability of being true
2:54:06though by no means clear true and it was
2:54:08like one post and people would be like
2:54:09this guy thinks the judges him and he
2:54:11should have been a pro. Like that's a
2:54:12typical critique. It's nonsense. I just
2:54:14never said that. I don't mean that and I
2:54:16never did. And so like how do you
2:54:17respond to that, right? Like it's tough.
2:54:20Um
2:54:20>> well that's why I'm saying if you were
2:54:22to choose one that you feel like has
2:54:23some substance and then to what degree
2:54:25it has substance. I think I've said some
2:54:27things that I uh are real mean things to
2:54:30say.
2:54:31>> Um I said them publicly and they involve
2:54:34other people and I think it was a thing
2:54:37that I wouldn't in the future repeat.
2:54:40>> Uh and so when they say you said this
2:54:42and you're an [ __ ] I'd be like,
2:54:45"Yeah, I said that." And I meant it and
2:54:48I still think it's true, but it's a
2:54:50thing to say. I think it's valid. Um,
2:54:54whenever when people can examine your
2:54:56entire things, I've said a lot of stuff.
2:54:57I've been prolific on YouTube podcasts.
2:55:00And so when you pick like the out of the
2:55:02top 10 worst things I've ever said,
2:55:04there's plenty of [ __ ] there that's
2:55:05really toxic and up.
2:55:06>> And I will say agree, most of that is
2:55:08toxic and and I have no excuse for it.
2:55:10Um, it's it blows and I probably
2:55:13shouldn't have done it, but I did, so I
2:55:14own it 100%.
2:55:16>> And a lot of those comments I own. Yeah.
2:55:17Like Yeah. Me.
2:55:19>> Um, speaking outside your expertise, how
2:55:21do you feel about that?
2:55:23My first thing that popped into my mind
2:55:25to say was going to be one of those
2:55:26toxic comments. Um,
2:55:29>> so we're getting better. It's good.
2:55:30>> Yeah. Yeah. I feel better already, Mike.
2:55:35Um, speaking. So, uh, I will often say
2:55:39things that are categorically false. I
2:55:42will often say things that are wild
2:55:44exaggerations. And I will often say
2:55:46things that are pretty true, but way
2:55:48lacking in nuance. and I don't catalog
2:55:50that and don't put that into the
2:55:52description.
2:55:53Those are all valid critiques. I
2:55:56absolutely do talk way too much [ __ ]
2:55:58outside of my expert area.
2:56:01I would say that's probably 10% of the
2:56:04[ __ ] I say that's outside of my
2:56:06technical expert area. And that's a lot
2:56:07of [ __ ] and it's like some combination
2:56:09of wrong or up or stupid or misleading.
2:56:12Say 90% of the [ __ ] I say that's outside
2:56:14of my expert area is most of the actual
2:56:16experts would be like, "Yep, that's 100%
2:56:18factual.
2:56:19Like I'm trying to carry the torch for
2:56:22toxicology even though I'm not a
2:56:23toxicologist. Uh toxicologist plural and
2:56:27I think most toxicologists will take
2:56:28most of my takes on like artificial
2:56:30sweeteners and be like this. I thank God
2:56:32somebody's saying this [ __ ] There's
2:56:33just not a toxicologist as famous as me.
2:56:35Like you're saying stuff a lot for other
2:56:38doctors, psychiatrists and stuff. I
2:56:39guarantee you all the [ __ ] you said
2:56:40about psychiatry earlier. Tons of
2:56:41psychiatrists are like that's right on.
2:56:43Thank god he's saying it. That's way
2:56:44outside of your expert area. And so I
2:56:46think my marginal utility to say truth
2:56:49in a way that many people can understand
2:56:50and is marginally more interesting than
2:56:52other people saying it is still worth
2:56:54the risk that I'll get it wrong
2:56:56sometimes. Um, nobody ever gets it right
2:56:58perfectly. And if you constrain yourself
2:57:00to only your expert area, I think it's
2:57:02wonderful, but I think if you expand out
2:57:04to other reasonable things that you can
2:57:06do way more good than bad. And I think
2:57:07the trade-off is worth it.
2:57:10>> Interesting take. Um,
2:57:13where is the future? Where are we going?
2:57:17like Subway or something probably
2:57:18something healthy but
2:57:19>> I mean five years down the line.
2:57:20>> Oh uh as far as aesthetics
2:57:24>> anything life I mean we talked a lot
2:57:27about books kids this that what else
2:57:30>> do you hear those uh incoming drums of
2:57:32my artificial super intelligence talk?
2:57:34>> No no for you.
2:57:36>> Oh that's what I was talking about.
2:57:37>> You're going to do something with
2:57:38artificial intelligence.
2:57:39>> Oh I always do. I talk to chat GPT
2:57:41daily.
2:57:42>> Um what's what's coming for me? And I
2:57:45mean, I'm going to be competing in
2:57:47bodybuilding again. Uh, probably. It's
2:57:48going to be sweet. Um,
2:57:51>> you had a moment where you said you're
2:57:53not doing that anymore. And then you've
2:57:56chosen to come back.
2:57:57>> Take me through that cuz I should be
2:57:59more familiar.
2:58:00>> I got super busy with YouTube and going
2:58:02on people's podcasts right when I was in
2:58:04the middle of a competitive at the start
2:58:05of a competitive season and it was just
2:58:07like, what do you want? Do you want to
2:58:08blow up on social media or do you want
2:58:09to have a successful competitive season?
2:58:11And I talked to my team. I talked to
2:58:13myself and it was like clearly we're
2:58:15going to be like when um oh my god
2:58:17what's the podcast diary of a CEO when
2:58:19they want you on you know say no to
2:58:21those people man you know how many views
2:58:23you get off something like that and I
2:58:25have a fiduciary responsibility to my
2:58:27company in which I'm an equity holder RP
2:58:29to like run with the brand can you
2:58:31imagine me telling my software guys that
2:58:32own part of the company and Mr. Nick
2:58:34Shaw, who owns a big part of the
2:58:35company, the CEO, they're like, "Hey,
2:58:36like I could do a lot of good for us by
2:58:39making myself like 10 times more popular
2:58:41in the next several months, but like I'm
2:58:43just going to go and hide in a hole and
2:58:44diet and do bodybuilding." They'd be
2:58:46like, "Okay,
2:58:48thanks." And so that was off the table.
2:58:50So I had to be basically take a step
2:58:51back from competitive bodybuilding and
2:58:53address the the rise. Now that it's at a
2:58:56more stable point and I've learned how
2:58:58to organize my life in such a way that I
2:59:00get to do podcast appearances more when
2:59:02I want and less when I have to. Uh then
2:59:05um and I've kind of finished a couple
2:59:07big projects. Now I'm ready to come back
2:59:08and do bodybuilding.
2:59:10>> Okay.
2:59:10>> Mhm.
2:59:10>> So you'll you'll be back in shows and
2:59:12then you were saying some other things
2:59:14you got going on.
2:59:14>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, writing
2:59:16a few books. Um, and just, uh, a big
2:59:21part of what I think I'm going to be
2:59:23doing is staying on the cutting edge. Do
2:59:27we need to shut up for a bit?
2:59:28>> No. It adds to the flavor that is
2:59:30>> Oh, yeah. New York.
2:59:33>> Um,
2:59:35I am really interested in the
2:59:39pharmaceutical revolution that is upon
2:59:41us and I want to understand it better. I
2:59:45want desperately to help promote, and I
2:59:49mean this, this is going to sound wacky.
2:59:52I want to promote the pharmaceutical
2:59:54industry and the mass social acceptance
2:59:56of using drugs to enhance every part of
2:59:59your life that you think they will as
3:00:01much as humanly possible.
3:00:03>> Are you a fan of Secretary Kennedy?
3:00:08>> I'm really into salt and pepper older
3:00:11guys, so that absolutely. Yes. Are you a
3:00:14fan of his health policies?
3:00:18>> The most popularized of his health
3:00:20policies.
3:00:22Um,
3:00:25need a bit more science in there.
3:00:28>> That's the nicest criticis.
3:00:30>> You're like, I'm trying to be nice now,
3:00:32right? It's not me. See,
3:00:34>> um, when did you become politically
3:00:36correct?
3:00:37>> You were talking about mail bombs a
3:00:38second ago.
3:00:39>> Hey, Trump's sending people out of the
3:00:40country forever. They got to send me. Uh
3:00:43yeah, man. Like real talk. Yeah.
3:00:45>> You wouldn't do well in an El
3:00:46Salvadorian prison
3:00:48>> or real God. The no one has knives,
3:00:51right? Probably all
3:00:52>> knives. And now you don't have the extra
3:00:54padding from the love handle to protect
3:00:56you.
3:00:56>> That's right. I'm Dr. Mike from YouTube.
3:00:57It's like crickets. I'm like, soy Dr.
3:00:59Mike and YouTube. They're like still
3:01:01crickets. I'm like,
3:01:02>> Miguel,
3:01:03>> hell doctor.
3:01:05>> Um,
3:01:07Secretary Kennedy,
3:01:09where is Dr. OS in government at this
3:01:11point.
3:01:12>> He's head of CMS.
3:01:14>> Dope.
3:01:14>> Center for Medicaid.
3:01:17>> I come from two perspectives on this.
3:01:20One is you and I are like relevant
3:01:23enough now that Secretary Kennedy may
3:01:25hear this. His staffers may hear this.
3:01:28>> Yeah,
3:01:29>> I know that's your opinion. And then
3:01:31other very well-meaning conservatives
3:01:33will hear this definitely. And what I
3:01:35want to say to those folks is we're all
3:01:36on the same team and we're all trying to
3:01:38do better. And I think that Secretary
3:01:40Kennedy's way of approaching better is
3:01:44in many ways awesome. His interest in
3:01:46getting Americans more healthy and more
3:01:48active and more into fitness. His
3:01:50interest in uh supporting like
3:01:51testosterone replacement therapy and
3:01:53[ __ ] like that is I think wonderful. But
3:01:55there are other ways in which we
3:01:56disagree radically and I would love to
3:01:58have that logical conversation with
3:02:00anyone who wants to listen.
3:02:02>> And uh so that's that take. The other
3:02:04take is I want to raise the sword and
3:02:08flag of science and scream at the top of
3:02:11my lungs what the is going on. Um that's
3:02:14probably not the most productive thing
3:02:15to do but it's a real thing. And so
3:02:18mostly is I watch you debate folks like
3:02:20that on your show and I watch with my
3:02:21wife from my living room like get them
3:02:23like get these mother. Well, because you
3:02:26know you you say a statement like I I
3:02:28support RFK's idea of getting people
3:02:31moving again, focusing on nutrition, all
3:02:33that stuff, but like in reality, those
3:02:36are his talking points and that's it.
3:02:39He's not actually doing any of the
3:02:41things to get people to eat healthier.
3:02:44Changing the sugar component in soda is
3:02:46not a win. It's still sugar. I
3:02:49>> have a script for a video that's coming
3:02:51out in a few weeks. It's going to be
3:02:52like just that. um cutting research in
3:02:56nutrition within the NIH is doing the
3:03:00opposite of those things that it seems
3:03:03like people get on board with his
3:03:04messaging. He just fired or had the
3:03:08person resign, retire. Um Kevin Hall,
3:03:11>> Kevin Hall's a legend. Yeah. Kevin Hall
3:03:13invented Metabolism. I mean, I basically
3:03:15called him the other day on an
3:03:16interview, the Michael Jordan of
3:03:17Metabolism Research,
3:03:18>> like I said,
3:03:19>> and he was just my last guest or two
3:03:22guests ago.
3:03:22>> He sat here.
3:03:23>> Mhm.
3:03:25>> So,
3:03:26to have him get thrown out of the United
3:03:30States research facility
3:03:31>> because his findings were contrary to
3:03:33what the political establishment today
3:03:34would like to believe.
3:03:35>> Sure. About dopamine in mice.
3:03:39>> Well, basically it was like uh what was
3:03:40it? I I barely remember. It's like
3:03:42actually like uh you can't say food
3:03:44addiction cuz it's not really addiction.
3:03:47>> It wasn't even that far because he
3:03:48doesn't make grand statements from his
3:03:50research. I think he's more honest about
3:03:52what the findings are and speaks only to
3:03:54the findings and what future potential
3:03:57questions could be made.
3:03:58>> Totally. And in his research for
3:04:00specifically that one where they were
3:04:01trying to censor it or change what he
3:04:02was saying to news outlets was they
3:04:06thought food could be addictive due to
3:04:08certain neurotransmitters being released
3:04:09upon eating the food. Much in the same
3:04:12way certain neurotransmitters are
3:04:14released when given ecstasy at cocaine
3:04:16etc.
3:04:17>> Miami.
3:04:18>> Miami. Why is Miami linked to that?
3:04:21>> That's where you do ecstasy and cocaine.
3:04:22Mike,
3:04:22>> who's you?
3:04:24>> The royal you.
3:04:25>> Royal
3:04:25>> people of money and
3:04:26>> the royal. Well, Trump's definitely
3:04:28never done both of those in Miami. I'm
3:04:30sure
3:04:31>> you're gonna get cancelled. Um,
3:04:33>> we all did some fun drugs.
3:04:36>> No change.
3:04:38>> Yeah.
3:04:39>> No, no. Like change meaning that like it
3:04:42came the neurotransmitters were equal in
3:04:44both groups. They couldn't even measure
3:04:47on average any release y
3:04:49>> of the neurotransmitter in food. So like
3:04:53>> the the model needs to change.
3:04:55>> Yeah. our our next test has to be
3:04:57different. Our mantra has to change. We
3:04:59need to insert more skepticism in the
3:05:01idea that food is addictive the same way
3:05:03that cocaine is.
3:05:05>> So
3:05:06>> yeah,
3:05:06>> they didn't like that and they started
3:05:08saying, "Oh, it's a small study. It's a
3:05:09worthless study."
3:05:10>> Yeah. And Kevin Hall was like that. Um,
3:05:12you know, that's part of the, so far as
3:05:15I can tell, at least some part of
3:05:16Kennedy's plan, that plan, politics is a
3:05:20trippy thing. And one of the things
3:05:22that's very common in politics that does
3:05:24a gigantic disservice to actual real
3:05:26humans is uh the attempt by people from
3:05:29all parties, unfortunately, not all, but
3:05:31at least the two major parties in the
3:05:32United States, a massive attempt to make
3:05:34it so that the individual on moss cannot
3:05:37be blamed for the outcomes that they
3:05:39have. And so typically Republicans to my
3:05:42liking are really big on individual
3:05:44responsibility whereas people on a
3:05:46political left typically it's all
3:05:47society you can't ever have done
3:05:48anything wrong as a person which again
3:05:50is half true and it's really dope coming
3:05:51from a great place wrong in a really big
3:05:53way because sometimes it is just you
3:05:55[ __ ] up and what's been really
3:05:57unfortunate to notice is that the um I
3:05:59don't want to republicans I guess or
3:06:01people who are more conservative leaning
3:06:03whatever the [ __ ]
3:06:03>> Secretary Kennedy's also a Democrat so I
3:06:05know technically that's why I'm having
3:06:07trouble with these terms right so people
3:06:09currently in power are people part of
3:06:11the maha movement.
3:06:13>> Um uh is that they're going for the same
3:06:17other things caused this problem and not
3:06:19you? I have been big on countering this
3:06:22to some extent and I'll give a quick
3:06:24sort of briefing. They're trying to say
3:06:26it's uh addictive. Junk food is
3:06:29addictive. They're trying and you know
3:06:31addiction implies loss of control which
3:06:33is true. um they're trying to say that
3:06:38you, you know, there's all these
3:06:40additives and foods and that's what's
3:06:42bad for you. It's the seed oils, it's
3:06:44the high fructose corn syrup, it's the
3:06:48uh you know it, if you replace these,
3:06:50just make these little little chemical
3:06:51changes, you're going to be able to just
3:06:54get way healthier. It it wasn't ever
3:06:56your fault. It's the system's fault.
3:06:57It's food corp's fault. And the reality
3:07:00is, and I've said this a few times, junk
3:07:02food tastes really good and you can't
3:07:04stop eating it. And that's why you're
3:07:07fat, mother. And nobody wants to hear
3:07:09that [ __ ] including me. If I was
3:07:10overweight, this guy's a But it's true.
3:07:13And politicians usually don't say really
3:07:15true nasty things that is not going to
3:07:17get them elected cuz everyone's like,
3:07:18"Oh, way to alienate everything." But
3:07:21can you imagine going to some ethnic or
3:07:22racial or gender or body composition
3:07:24group and being like, "You're the
3:07:26problem. Oh my god, good luck getting
3:07:28elected ever. You don't want to You
3:07:29don't want to tell people they're the
3:07:30problem. You want to say it's other
3:07:32things and I'm going to fix them. I'm
3:07:33the politician. I'm going to come clean
3:07:34it up. You're good. You've been doing
3:07:35everything right. Food aggro business
3:07:37has done you wrong. When the reality is,
3:07:39you know that like meme is like here's
3:07:40the enemy and it's just a picture of
3:07:42you. You're like, "Oh [ __ ] that is me."
3:07:43That's real truth. Much closer to the
3:07:45truth than that other stuff. And so on
3:07:48the one hand, it's easy for me to say,
3:07:49"Hey Kennedy, like just say it for what
3:07:51it is, man. Americans just eat a ton of
3:07:53junk food cuz it's really tasty. Let's
3:07:55treat that problem seriously and not try
3:07:57to look for boogeymen because there are
3:07:59none or few and they don't account for
3:08:00much of their variance. It's easy for me
3:08:02to say but like I don't know who Kennedy
3:08:04is as a human. I don't know how politics
3:08:06work in real life is you know all sorts
3:08:07of illusions about how you're going to
3:08:08do things. And as soon as to to quote my
3:08:10favorite uh Thomas soul the proximate
3:08:14job sometimes the ultimate job of almost
3:08:15every politician is one thing
3:08:17re-election period and if that's not
3:08:19your proximate or ultimate job you just
3:08:21don't exist in the ecosystem long enough
3:08:23to matter. And so, you know, if he wants
3:08:25to get re-elected or get a bit higher
3:08:26position of power, no doubt, I'm sure
3:08:28he's interested in a presidential bid at
3:08:30some point, um, blaming people for their
3:08:33problems is going to land really poorly.
3:08:35And if he can say, "Oh, I did these
3:08:36great things and made us healthier in a
3:08:38way that didn't really matter." I don't
3:08:39know the kind of person he is in real
3:08:40life. Who cares? Does he know? I also
3:08:42don't know what he knows. As one thing,
3:08:44I've have had some interactions with
3:08:45politicians lately, and I I could tell
3:08:48you, they're people like you and me,
3:08:49bro, and they don't have all the
3:08:51answers. They're smart. They're not that
3:08:52smart. like they're not some kind of
3:08:54super like they're not like Elon or
3:08:55whatever and so when you're like well
3:08:57shouldn't Kennedy know better like I
3:08:59don't know who's telling him better his
3:09:00staffers all sit there and do this and
3:09:02just wait for his every word and then go
3:09:03like that and they just do what he wants
3:09:04and when you're in power and you have
3:09:06lot cart blanch to get rid of people or
3:09:08bring people in whatever hairrained idea
3:09:10you have a lot of yesmen around you who
3:09:12have basically all the no men have all
3:09:15gone they're going to tell you what you
3:09:16want to hear and so like I don't even
3:09:18know if like Kennedy legit has ever like
3:09:20someone for real in his cabinet was like
3:09:21yo RFK none of this shit's true. You
3:09:23know that, right? He's like, "Yeah, shut
3:09:25up. I'm trying to get reelected." That
3:09:26would be kind of okay, fine. But he
3:09:28probably thinks like, "Yes, seed oils
3:09:30really are bad for your health."
3:09:31>> But when he gets like, we had Peter
3:09:32Hotz, Dr. Peter Hotz on the podcast, and
3:09:35he had multiple hour-long conversations
3:09:37with him, I believe, in late 201.
3:09:44And he's having legitimate scientists
3:09:46talk to him, but he
3:09:47>> What do you mean didn't care for the
3:09:48science? Do you have any more insight on
3:09:50that?
3:09:52when they were talking about autism, Dr.
3:09:55Peter Hotz raised environmental
3:09:57exposures as playing a role in autism
3:10:00development or increased autism
3:10:03development. And he said, "You're an
3:10:04environmental lawyer. Like, this is your
3:10:06bread and butter." Like, there are
3:10:07actual good scientific ties to certain
3:10:10exposures that look like they could be
3:10:13contributing to the rise in autism. And
3:10:15he labeled them. I don't remember them
3:10:16now offhand. There was like exposure to
3:10:18some medication during childirth, etc.
3:10:21and he had he didn't want to hear it. He
3:10:23said, "No, no, no, it's it's it's
3:10:24vaccines."
3:10:26And what's interesting is like I I try
3:10:29and get into someone's head in uh mid20s
3:10:34Secretary Kennedy RFK Jr. at the time
3:10:36was writing books that it was the
3:10:39mercury component in vaccines as the
3:10:41driver of autism.
3:10:44But they were uh the ingredient that he
3:10:47labels mercury is
3:10:48>> styarisol. Mhm.
3:10:50>> It was removed from almost the entire
3:10:52childhood vaccination schedule in the
3:10:54year 2000.
3:10:55>> I mean that's like a simple fact that
3:10:57like any everyone tells him
3:10:59>> a lot of people don't know simple
3:11:00>> and he said yeah but it's still present
3:11:01in multi-dosese flu vials.
3:11:04>> So he's like uh basically guarding his
3:11:06position. He doesn't want to admit
3:11:07publicly that he was mega wrong.
3:11:09>> And
3:11:11I don't get it like how like we removed
3:11:14it and nothing changed. We removed it
3:11:15just to be safe, even though we didn't
3:11:17think it was causing a problem. And
3:11:18nothing changed. And nothing changed.
3:11:21>> And yet he's still saying that it has
3:11:24some negative impact.
3:11:25>> Yeah.
3:11:26>> Um he on his Twitter when I was making
3:11:29my video uh covering his statements had
3:11:32a thing saying that the Gardicell HPV
3:11:34vaccine was causing more damage than it
3:11:38was helping. Meanwhile, every health
3:11:40agency across the globe, not like some
3:11:42dude in the US. He's not disagreeing
3:11:44with Peter Hotes. He's disagreeing with
3:11:45international tens of thousands of
3:11:48physicians, experts, scientists that are
3:11:50like, "No, no, no. You are factually
3:11:52wrong. Here's studies. Here's what we
3:11:54did. Here's how we tested it. We want
3:11:56the best for our people." And he's like,
3:11:58"No."
3:11:59>> Yeah.
3:12:00>> I said different.
3:12:01>> Yeah.
3:12:02>> But like, how do you get that?
3:12:03>> It's a trip. Politicians have lots of
3:12:06power. I think that's probably not
3:12:07great. They have lots uh currently in
3:12:10our the way the government works is they
3:12:11have lots of especially in the
3:12:14administrative wing they have a lot of
3:12:15like but this is the policy I'm now in
3:12:17charge for the next four years of these
3:12:18federal agencies and this is law. Um a
3:12:21lot of people think that should change.
3:12:22I agree. Uh it's it's pretty messed up.
3:12:24Um it's it's not even a partisan thing
3:12:26either because just whether on your
3:12:28right or left you just have your little
3:12:29emotional stuff like currently RFK has
3:12:31this like vaccine thing and autism and a
3:12:34few other environmental things. um when
3:12:36it's just wacky. He's just like in just
3:12:38boldfaced letters wrong according to
3:12:40consensus and science. The same can be
3:12:42said unfortunately for uh various
3:12:44certainly various uh people on the
3:12:46conservative party. But just to keep it
3:12:47nice and fair uh you know on the
3:12:49political left like so like um Alexander
3:12:51Accaziocortez has a few views on
3:12:53economics that would just um if she
3:12:56answered like that on a test back in her
3:12:58schooling she would have failed the
3:12:59test. Um it's just wrong. um Elizabeth
3:13:02Warren, Bernie Sanders, I mean these are
3:13:03people who are wildly considered
3:13:05economically illiterate. That would be
3:13:06accurate to say they run large fractions
3:13:08of the economy and they have big votes.
3:13:10So right um I think um somehow we have
3:13:15to get to a place socially where um
3:13:19factual accuracy is by real humans, real
3:13:23voters something that is like you got to
3:13:26have that. And if you start getting real
3:13:28arry of the basic facts, man, you're
3:13:31going to have to get like not voted in
3:13:33again or something like that. I'm not
3:13:35sure how we get there. I think AI is
3:13:36going to be really helpful because like
3:13:38chatbt, Gemini, all these things, if you
3:13:41ask them factual questions, they cut you
3:13:43the pretty real deal and you're like,
3:13:44>> but no one's listening to them. I mean,
3:13:46Elon Musk loves Secretary Kennedy
3:13:49constantly supporting him on Twitter.
3:13:52And if you ask his own AI, Grock, what
3:13:55is the factual accuracy of the majority
3:13:56of Secretary Kenny's health statements?
3:13:58It says most of them are inaccurate.
3:14:00>> Yeah.
3:14:00>> Like, bro, your own thing that you say
3:14:03is great is telling you the guy that
3:14:05you're supporting is lying, is
3:14:06inaccurate constantly.
3:14:08>> I see this in two ways. One, there are
3:14:10things that Elon knows better than his
3:14:11AI because Elon's one of the smartest
3:14:13people who's ever lived flat out. Um
3:14:18uh on the other hand,
3:14:21it is um
3:14:24Elon also has a lot of feelings, bro. We
3:14:27all do. You've seen his Twitter feed,
3:14:29right?
3:14:30>> And so people just like have their [ __ ]
3:14:31that they feel like and they're they're
3:14:33going to bat for it. The other thing is
3:14:35this, and I I've wondered whether or not
3:14:37I wanted to say this publicly, but I
3:14:39suppose like anyone can really think it.
3:14:40I don't think it's going to cause some
3:14:41kind of mass movement or whatever. But
3:14:44when you enter into the world of
3:14:46politics,
3:14:48you have to start thinking at least
3:14:50consider thinking in a mavelian way. And
3:14:53that means that things you say and the
3:14:54people you support can be for kind of
3:14:58functional reasons for a grand strategy.
3:15:00You're going to say a lot of [ __ ] that's
3:15:02wrong on the way and you're going to
3:15:03know it's wrong, but you're going to
3:15:04swallow it and you're going to tip your
3:15:06hat anyway to that person because
3:15:08they're in charge. for example, very
3:15:10many people who were tech billionaires,
3:15:12either the smartest people on the
3:15:14planet, um they are at least for a time
3:15:17and still to some extent super proTrump
3:15:20and um a lot of them were asked about
3:15:23their Trump's opinion like Trump's
3:15:24tariffs for example now in the economics
3:15:26profession tariffs are like a
3:15:28laughingstock like if any time after
3:15:301790 you're still supporting tariffs
3:15:32it's insane and uh most of these people
3:15:35know that they're quite economically
3:15:36literate I listen to podcasts about how
3:15:38these people talk Peter Teal types, you
3:15:40know, they're real sharp guys. And when
3:15:42you ask a lot of these people like
3:15:44Jensen Wong was asked about what he
3:15:45thinks about tariffs, his answer, as far
3:15:47as I can remember, was, you know, I
3:15:48generally tend to leave economic policy
3:15:50in the hands of the folks that have the
3:15:51control and uh they're doing the best
3:15:52with it. And he kind of dodged the
3:15:53question. We think Jensen Wong would
3:15:55have really thought, you know, we got
3:15:57insane. This like of course it's wrong.
3:16:00Of course, it's going to cost us it's
3:16:01going to cost the American economy
3:16:02[ __ ] trillions of dollars. The
3:16:03stupidest thing in the world. How do you
3:16:05think that would have affected his
3:16:06probability of data center construction
3:16:08approval and pipelines for microchip
3:16:10components is when Trump's the guy in
3:16:12charge? What do you think Jensen Hong's
3:16:13going to say if you're a Stalin Stalin
3:16:16early Stalin and you're in his cabinet
3:16:18you know he's like hey let's go start
3:16:19killing a bunch of people like no hey
3:16:20hey Stalin let's not do that you
3:16:22wouldn't say shut your mouth and either
3:16:23try to leave as fast as possible and
3:16:25make sure you weren't the second guy in
3:16:26line to die. So I think a lot of people
3:16:29who are pro- various political leaders
3:16:32that are very smart AI people or just
3:16:34really good technologists uh just anyone
3:16:36good scientists always try to think like
3:16:38how close to politics are they and how
3:16:40likely is it that the views they espouse
3:16:42are the ones they actually hold deep
3:16:43down inside and I say for some people
3:16:45yeah really is what they believe for
3:16:47many other people they just got to say
3:16:48what they got to say so that Nvidia
3:16:50doesn't get and medic
3:16:52>> yeah but he didn't say in that statement
3:16:53I support the tariffs
3:16:56>> he just said, "I'm staying out of it."
3:16:59>> Yeah.
3:16:59>> Which is different than saying I support
3:17:01them.
3:17:02>> Uh, for sure.
3:17:03>> Which is what Elon's doing with RFK.
3:17:05>> For sure. No. So Elon also, to his
3:17:06credit, has had a huge rift with Trump
3:17:08because he was like the big beautiful
3:17:10bill can't be a cogent concept because
3:17:12>> Well, because his breaking point was the
3:17:13the budget, the deficit. That was his
3:17:16thing that he was focused on.
3:17:18>> But up until So I I can almost promise
3:17:21you that if you got Elon in a box and
3:17:23you were like, "Hey, we solved
3:17:24everything. ASI is here. Magical,
3:17:25perfect. The world is awesome. Mars is
3:17:27colonized. How did you really feel about
3:17:28all these things back in the day? I can
3:17:30almost guarantee you'd be like, "Yeah,
3:17:31of course I thought various political
3:17:33leaders were completely insane people,
3:17:35vastly out of their depth." But you got
3:17:37to play the game. You got to play the
3:17:38cards as they're dealt. So when we're
3:17:40talking about individuals who say or
3:17:42don't say various things, it's easy for
3:17:44us to say cuz we're not in politics. um
3:17:46when you're in politics remotely and
3:17:48when the success of the entire techni so
3:17:51for example Trump with uh the uh
3:17:53situation the political stuff with AI
3:17:55that he just did um was probably I would
3:17:58say if I had to catalog it I'm no
3:18:00historian one of the most important
3:18:01decisions ever made in the world and
3:18:04definitely in the free world definitely
3:18:05in the United States and it made it in
3:18:07the right in the right way so for all of
3:18:09Trump's maladies his pro-AI stance
3:18:11really empowering and deregulating AI in
3:18:13the United States might have just like
3:18:14preempted or won us World War II against
3:18:16China. Oh my god. So if you say, "Oh
3:18:19man, somebody should have stood stood up
3:18:21to Trump." Imagine if all the tech guys
3:18:23were like, "Dude, you suck. Like you
3:18:25really just need to appoint someone
3:18:26else." Like JD Vance is way smarter than
3:18:28you. Like we have really talks with him.
3:18:30He's like, "No, I know this is crazy. I
3:18:31can't believe this guy's in power." That
3:18:33they would have all been ousted and then
3:18:34he would have been like, "Hey AI sucks.
3:18:36I changed my mind." And you know, even
3:18:38more protectionism, more anti-China
3:18:40jingoism. And we would have been in a
3:18:41losing World War II in like two years.
3:18:43So when when people say Elon said this,
3:18:45Elon said that, I have half a mind to
3:18:47think Elon's just having some feelings
3:18:48and he's entitled to his opinion. Maybe
3:18:49he's right, we're wrong. But I also
3:18:51think like I don't for people that
3:18:53famous, that impactful, that close to
3:18:54power, like the Mark Andre types, I
3:18:56don't anything they say about politics,
3:18:58I'm like maybe he thinks that. Uh I
3:19:01generally tend to listen to them more on
3:19:02like, you know, their opinions on social
3:19:04matters, grander political forces, but
3:19:06specifics, it's tough. So the RFK
3:19:07support, maybe Trump really thinks that
3:19:10or sorry, maybe Elon really thinks that.
3:19:12Maybe there's some sort of association
3:19:14that's beneficial for as Elon assesses
3:19:18the state of humanity going forward. I
3:19:19do believe that um Elon is very sincere
3:19:22when he really cares about the survival
3:19:23of humanity into the long term. I think
3:19:25uh I don't know why he would say things
3:19:27that often which usually land on deaf
3:19:29ears if it didn't really mean it because
3:19:31most people are like what?
3:19:32>> Yeah, we should get him on the pod next.
3:19:34>> It' be tough. Is it tough? You're
3:19:36famous. You could do something like
3:19:37that.
3:19:37>> Or maybe both of us
3:19:38>> if you get Elon on the pod tell him I'm
3:19:41a massive fan. And I said, "Hello." And
3:19:43he's going to be like, "Who's that?"
3:19:44Like that. Like that.
3:19:46>> Well, in a way, like, "Oh, come on. I
3:19:48got to make these jokes." I got Oh, god.
3:19:50So many jokes about that, man.
3:19:52>> I'll just say he said hi
3:19:54>> just like that.
3:19:55>> Mhm.
3:19:55>> With a more extended arm deal.
3:19:57>> And one of these like, you know,
3:20:00>> he's uh he's an interesting character
3:20:02for sure. I think we covered a lot of
3:20:04topics.
3:20:05>> Too many as usual.
3:20:06>> Too many.
3:20:06>> I think most of your heroes by this
3:20:08point are either asleep or have
3:20:09unsubscribed.
3:20:10>> I don't know. I think a lot of people
3:20:11enjoy your your conversations for better
3:20:13or worse.
3:20:14>> For worse.
3:20:15>> Well, thank you for your time. Hope you
3:20:17had fun.
3:20:17>> Always fun, Mike. Thank you for having
3:20:18me on. And I once again, I will say I
3:20:20absolutely appreciate the fact that you
3:20:23basically grill everyone on your show
3:20:25because you seem like a very pleasant
3:20:26guy and you really are. But when you're
3:20:28in the hot seat, it really is the hot
3:20:29seat. And I love it. I love it. I love
3:20:30it. I love being grilled.
3:20:32>> Curiosity. Maybe curiosity. Jewish
3:20:35curiosity, you know, like my wife will
3:20:37be like, she'll be hanging out with some
3:20:38of our Jewish friends and she's like
3:20:40they just debate each other all the
3:20:41time. Like that's what we do. Like a lot
3:20:44of people are into that. I love it.
3:20:45>> I feel like that's how you find tune
3:20:46ideas through discourse and debates.
3:20:48>> 100%.
3:20:48>> Cool. Thank you, sir.
3:20:49>> Thank you so much.
3:20:51>> Speaking of beauty standards, I
3:20:53interviewed Hannah Brown, the former
3:20:55Bachelorette, and learned about the
3:20:57ridiculous things she's had to deal with
3:20:58in her career while on reality
3:21:00television. Click here for that
3:21:02interview. And as always, stay happy and
3:21:04healthy.

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