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The school choice wave sweeping America | Corey DeAngelis | The Reason Interview With Nick Gillespie — Transcript

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0:00this is the recent interview with Nick
0:01Gillespie today's episode is sponsored
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1:00link in the show notes to join the
1:02dispatch today my guest is school choice
1:05activist Corey d'angelus whose
1:08provocative new book is the parent
1:10Revolution rescuing your kids from the
1:13radicals ruining our schools a senior
1:17fellow at the American Federation for
1:18children and a former education policy
1:21Analyst at the reason Foundation Cory
1:24has been called the most effective
1:25school choice Advocate since Milton
1:28fredman his new book explains why K
1:30through2 education failed so badly
1:33before and during covid and how to fix
1:36it once and for all by making the needs
1:38of parents and students the central
1:41concern of schooling here is the reent
1:43interview with Corey
1:46[Music]
1:47[Applause]
1:48[Music]
1:51d'angeles Cory thanks for talking hey
1:54thanks for having me okay you hey Nick
1:57real quick you call me doctor the
1:58reality is I'm not a real doctor I'm
2:00more like a Jill Biden doctor okay that
2:04uh joke never gets old
2:08because yeah that is um wins I won't be
2:13able to use it anymore what is your PhD
2:15in is it uh you're education policy at
2:18the University of Arkansas it's actually
2:20a department called the Department of
2:22Education reform so it's not some total
2:25Marxist education school like most of
2:27them is actually uh my advisers there
2:30one of the journals is called the the
2:32Journal of school choice is actually
2:34housed at the University of Arkansas so
2:37um my professor at the University of
2:39Texas San Antonio where I did my
2:40bachelor's and Masters in economics he
2:42was affiliated with uh the the freedan
2:45foundation at the time now called Ed
2:47choice and he recommended that I go
2:49pursue the PHD at Arkansas and my first
2:51study there actually linked the
2:53Milwaukee Voucher Program started in
2:561990 to long-term reductions in crime
2:58later on in life so that kind of thrust
3:01me into the national Spotlight for a
3:03while and I'm glad that really quickly I
3:06found out that the University was not a
3:08friend to me um it was a it was rough
3:11going through the peer review process in
3:13that study in particular we submitted
3:15the the paper It ultimately got
3:17published in a journal called social
3:18science quarterly but that was after
3:20going through a lot of the education
3:22journals and one of them was called
3:24Urban education and one of the journal
3:27one of the journal reviewers after the
3:28other one accepted it the reviewer
3:30number two said that well you didn't
3:33discuss how your results related to
3:36whiteness structural oppression and
3:39power and then they also were upset that
3:41we Ed the term Urban student and they
3:44said well students aren't Urban they
3:45live in urban areas and I said okay but
3:48the reason that we put that in the
3:49article is because you're about the
3:51journal said Urban students right it
3:53just goes to show you they they will try
3:55to reject anything that doesn't fit
3:57their their worldview uh if it found a
3:59negative result for school choice you
4:01know they would have accepted it right
4:02away talk um before we get into the book
4:05I guess proper um you mentioned you were
4:08uh uh raised in San Antonio you what was
4:12your school experience as a you know as
4:15like a grammar school and high school
4:16kid because that obviously feeds into
4:19your interest in school choice
4:21policy yeah so if you get a book
4:24afterwards I highly recommend it it's a
4:26hit the national bestseller list and it
4:28was recently endorsed by Trump you might
4:30like that you might not like that but
4:31either way it uh it tells you people are
4:34talking about it so you might want to
4:36figure out what's what's in the book
4:37what Trump say he obviously didn't read
4:39it but what did he say about it I will
4:42tell you that Senator Ted Cruz got in an
4:45early endorsement on the back and he
4:47says you can ruin Randy we Garten's Day
4:50by reading this book but explain to who
4:53I mean there's many cognizant here who
4:55is Randy weard so I dedicated the book
4:57to Randy wearden too I and she's the
5:00head of the American Federation of
5:02teachers they fought to keep the schools
5:03closed lobbied the CDC to make it more
5:06difficult to reopen schools they were
5:07threatening strikes in 2020 she called
5:10the plan to reopen schools by the
5:12president Reckless callous and cruel
5:15they threw every buzzword at the wall to
5:16see what would stick they were
5:18fear-mongering every step of the way she
5:20had local affiliates in Chicago they
5:23were saying that the push to reopen
5:24schools is rooted in sexism racism and
5:28misogyny they actually deleted a tweet
5:30saying that but I dedicate the book to
5:32her at the very front page for
5:35overplaying her hand Awakening a
5:37sleeping giant and inadvertently doing
5:39more to advance school choice and
5:41homeschooling than anyone could have
5:43ever imagined yeah but to get to my
5:45schooling experience really quickly yeah
5:47I grew up in San Antonio Texas if you do
5:48get a book and did Randy wein Garten
5:51steal your lunch money is that where
5:52this I mean we're coming for full circle
5:56now I'm bringing it back but uh no she
5:58actually didn't do that I also did send
6:00a book to her I also sent one to Chicago
6:03Teachers Union boss Stacy Davis Gates
6:06She called school choice racist last
6:09year and guess what she sends her own
6:11kid to private school we found out this
6:12year total
6:14hypocrisy uh she said it wasn't enough
6:16money in the public schools that was the
6:18problem it wasn't because her unions
6:19were pushing for the worst policies ever
6:22and protecting the lowest common
6:24denominator employee they spend about
6:26$30,000 per kid in the government
6:28schools in Chicago it's not as bad as
6:30here it's $40,000 per kid in New York
6:32City well before we uh get into all of
6:35that what happened to you in high school
6:38yeah yeah why why am I so uh such a
6:42fighter for school that's what president
6:44Trump said he's a fighter for parental
6:46rights um but I went to government
6:48schools all through K through yeah like
6:50just to kind of clarify this at the
6:52beginning most of us call them Public
6:53Schools you insist on the term
6:55government schools what do you why me if
6:58you have any Economist in the room you
6:59know it's not a public good schooling is
7:01rivalrous and excludable but more
7:03importantly it's not accessible to the
7:05public government schools discriminate
7:08on the basis of zip code families have
7:10actually gone to jail for lying about
7:12their address to get into better
7:14so-called Public Schools they're not a
7:16public good they're not accountable to
7:17the public we saw what happened over the
7:20covid era when families weren't happy
7:22with what they were seeing in the
7:23classro through Zoom School through
7:25remote learning which let's be real we
7:27should have called it remotely learning
7:28there wasn't a lot lot of learning going
7:30on families weren't happy so guess what
7:32the unions had told them all along that
7:35well if you just go show up at the
7:36school boards we'll listen to you well
7:39we saw how well that worked out they
7:40tried to bully and silence parents into
7:43submission they cut off their mics so
7:45I'm sorry just and so you call them
7:47government schools because they're run
7:50by the government operated by the
7:51government regulated by the government
7:53they are compelled by the government
7:55they're assigned by the government they
7:57are funded by the government or at least
7:58the taxpayer
7:59they're government schools not Public
8:01Schools okay um but to get my experience
8:04really quickly we really it's like a hot
8:07stove we don't want to touch what
8:09happened to you in public school
8:11government schools I went to school in K
8:14to2 education and if you get my
8:17signature afterwards you will understand
8:20um you know my people are making fun of
8:23me online recently my handwriting is
8:25horrible you can't blame me I went to
8:26government schools you can't say it's
8:28because I'm a doctor I'm not a real
8:30doctor I'm a Jill Biden doctor but I
8:31went to government schools K through 12
8:34and in high school I had the opportunity
8:35to go to something called a magnet
8:37school you have magnet schools here in
8:39New York City I'm I'm assuming and it's
8:42not they're still run by the government
8:44but you're not assigned to them they
8:45don't have as much Monopoly power they
8:48have to attract their clientele their
8:49customers they can have a specialized
8:52Mission I thought that was a good
8:53opportunity for me I think other
8:54families should have similar
8:56opportunities as well but it shouldn't
8:57be schools limited to ones that are run
8:59by was the magnet but what was the
9:02special curriculum at the yeah so we had
9:04choices among like business careers my
9:07sister went to something called health
9:09careers mine was Communications Arts so
9:13if I'm talking too much maybe that's
9:14have they invited you back or are they
9:16kind of like not back I don't think they
9:17like me very I don't know I don't know
9:19um the San Antonio Express News ran one
9:23of my op-eds recently but I went and
9:25talked to the editorial board they
9:26weren't too happy with what happened I
9:28mean though you were you know what was
9:30your experience and when did you start
9:32going to a magnet school yeah I started
9:34in nth grade so in middle school went to
9:36the government run school that I was
9:37assigned to and look it wasn't high
9:40expectations I I turned out fine I think
9:43you tell me if I'm wrong Nick but um got
9:47yeah there was a lot of you know gang
9:50activity on campus people would get into
9:52fights all the time that was the cool
9:53thing to do we would play this game
9:55raise your hand if you've done this it
9:57was called 10 seconds anybody heard of
9:59that game
10:00you guys all went to private schools or
10:02something I don't know but where I grew
10:04up that was the thing to do you fought
10:05for 10 seconds and then they' call it
10:08you know the third party would say okay
10:10that's the end at the end of the timer
10:11and that was it um but people would get
10:14rolled into gangs in the bathroom I
10:16don't know if that's a thing anywhere
10:17else but that was a thing at my middle
10:19school and drugs were were rampant on
10:22campus as well so uh look in as a
10:26Libertarian a audience drugs are fine
10:28but not it should not be around young
10:31children young impressionable Minds all
10:33right yeah now but I mean you had I mean
10:38it was it was not a good environment
10:40right yeah so I didn't think it was a
10:41great environment but I was on the
10:42campus in high school of my assigned
10:44school had some of the same problems and
10:47so I saw a night and day difference for
10:48four years and that was a good
10:50opportunity for me I think other
10:51families should have opportunities too
10:53but it shouldn't be again limited to
10:55schools that happen to be run by the
10:56government what uh what did your parents
10:58do um what's their background and how
11:00did how did they view education yeah my
11:02dad actually grew up in Philly I was
11:04just there last week he went to a school
11:05named called Gerard College it was
11:08actually at the time a school for
11:10low-income kids who didn't have fathers
11:12uh my dad's dad passed away at eight
11:15when he was eight years old and so uh
11:18you know he was fully covered by a
11:19privately funded scholarship there he
11:21had gone to Catholic school before that
11:24they met in San Diego California uh my
11:27dad actually got went into the Air Force
11:30and I was born in Sacramento not a lot
11:32of people know this I I grew up in Texas
11:34but I was actually born in Sacramento my
11:36dad was in the Air Force and we moved
11:38around and I don't know about you guys
11:41but there was a lot of lunacy during the
11:43co era would you agree with me there was
11:44a lot of stupid rules that didn't make
11:47any sense in Sacramento County I talk
11:50about this in a book as one of the
11:51examples there was actually a stupid
11:54Health order that arbitrarily applied to
11:56schools that had to close but not not
11:59daycares right because Co was smart it
12:02knew if you were learning something it
12:03was going to get you but if you're just
12:05sitting there in the same building it
12:06would it would deactivate not not do
12:08anything same thing with the planes it
12:10was a courteous virus if you were eating
12:12and you were snacking on pretzels it
12:14would say I'm going to let you finish
12:16your meal before I come attack you uh
12:18but there was a private school in
12:20Sacramento County during the co era saw
12:22all this for what it was a bunch of BS
12:25and they actually rebranded themselves
12:27as a daycare they retrained all their
12:29employees as daycare workers and said
12:31hey yeah we're learning too but this is
12:33really a daycare and they were able to
12:35open their doors for their customers and
12:37that just goes to show you the
12:38difference in incentives that are in the
12:40private versus the government sector um
12:43let's talk about the title of the book
12:45The Parent Revolution and you use that
12:48you know that's an organizing principle
12:50uh Define for us what is the parent
12:52Revolution that you're talking about
12:53yeah for far too long in K to2 education
12:56the only special interest represented
12:57the employees the adult in the system
13:00but now the kids have a union of their
13:02own they're parents they basically
13:04become a new interest group more of a
13:06general interest group they're fighting
13:07for their own kids as opposed to a
13:09special interest group like the teachers
13:11unions but they become a political
13:13Juggernaut a political force to be
13:15reckoned with and it's all because the
13:17unions overplayed their hand by fighting
13:19to keep the schools closed for so long
13:22you started to have families who thought
13:23things were okay because they had a
13:26ratings on their from the state the the
13:28kids were getting all a on their report
13:30cards they thought things were fine but
13:33VOD bacham said it best we cannot
13:35continue to send our children to Caesar
13:37for their education and be surprised
13:39when they come home as Romans well the
13:42good news is parents aren't surprised
13:44anymore one they saw the unions didn't
13:46care about them when they fought to
13:47close the schools but even after the
13:49schools were open families saw through
13:51Zoom school that the curriculum wasn't
13:54aligned with their values and the best
13:56solution is not from the top down to ban
13:58certain con CS are to promote others
14:01because that doesn't get you out of the
14:03core root of the problem which is we
14:04force millions of families to send their
14:07kids to a one-sized fits-all government
14:09school system that by definition is
14:11never going to meet the individual
14:13varied needs of families the better
14:15solutions from the bottom up talk a bit
14:17about you know let's let before we get
14:19to co um can you do a quick history of
14:22school choice in America and obviously
14:26there's you know one story that we tell
14:28is that in the mid-50s miltton Freeman
14:31wrote an article you know where he
14:33introduced the idea of of universal
14:34School vouchers um as a more effect
14:37efficient way of kind of parceling out
14:40dollars and experiences for schools can
14:43you take it back a little bit further I
14:44mean because the United States had
14:47including before it was the United
14:49States has a kind of unique and strange
14:51and kind of wonderful but also
14:53disturbing history with education you
14:55know what's what's the Genesis of
14:58Education in America of common education
15:00and um you know bring us up to co in you
15:04know two minutes yeah look Milton
15:05fredman's essay was the role of
15:07government in education in 1955 he
15:09should have really called that the lack
15:11of a role of government in education um
15:14the the word education isn't in the in
15:16the Federal Constitution the US
15:18Constitution so we should abolish the
15:20Department of Education it never should
15:21have been born it was a pay exist when
15:23he wrote it I mean and educ education
15:25then was mostly funded at the state and
15:27local level which is still state
15:29governments but to go back a little bit
15:31further than that we actually had
15:32voucher programs in the US in States
15:35like Maine and Vermont back in the late
15:381800s uh these were for students who
15:41were assigned to school were in school
15:43districts that were so rural they didn't
15:45have any public schools uh so they found
15:48out over 150 years ago not having a lot
15:51of opportunities or options was an
15:52argument to expand choice not to
15:54restrict it in some rder states right
15:56now like my home state of Texas some of
15:58the the Republicans have tried to have
16:01their cake and eat it too by saying well
16:03we can vote against our own party
16:04platform because we're in rural areas
16:07the public school is the only option
16:08they'll say but in the next breath with
16:10a straight face they'll try to tell you
16:12well this is going to destroy our
16:13fantastic rural public school hold on
16:16which one is it if you don't have a lot
16:18of options if you're not going to go
16:19anywhere else by giving families a
16:21choice but public schools are funded
16:23based on enrollment counts they're not
16:25going to lose any money at all but
16:26secondly more importantly if they're so
16:28fantastic they shouldn't have anything
16:30to fear uh with a little bit of
16:32competition but in the 1930s we had the
16:34father of public education Horus Mann in
16:37the US in
16:381830s uh not 19 1930s went over to the
16:42to modern day Prussia and no but I'm I'm
16:46sorry it's 19th century horse man is
16:4819th centur and so he comes over to the
16:51US and he's the first Secretary of
16:53Education in in man in
16:56Massachusetts and their their whole
16:58aidea of the compulsory government
17:00school system there was uh to create
17:04obedient soldiers obedient Factory
17:06workers and so you see a lot of that
17:08ideology kind of percolating in the
17:10system today that's how a lot of people
17:12say the school system's failing we throw
17:14more money at it over time since 1970
17:17per student spending has increased by
17:19170% in real terms the academic outcomes
17:23haven't gotten better but maybe we're
17:24looking at the wrong outcomes it's more
17:26about control and obedience to Authority
17:28you have to raise your hand whenever you
17:30want to do anything in the school system
17:32and that's why I'm a big proponent of
17:34homeschooling too and homeschooling has
17:36at least doubled relative to
17:37pre-pandemic levels as well so that's
17:39another Silver Lining of when the
17:42government closed the schools family
17:44started to re a lot of them didn't like
17:46the the zoom school at home but others
17:48who might not have tried homeschooling
17:50before said hey this is something I can
17:52do they had more confident in in their
17:54ability to do so and uh they started to
17:58realize they can learn a lot more at a
18:00fraction of the in the fraction of the
18:01time and as far as socialization is
18:04concerned uh they were able to cut out a
18:06lot of those negative forms of
18:07socialization that I experienced in my
18:10government schools uh growing up and
18:12they were able to capitalize on positive
18:13forms of socialization you know we we
18:15kind of go from horse man in the middle
18:17of the 19th century um and you know the
18:20the beginning of compulsory schooling um
18:23to you know in the early 20th century
18:26and particularly as immigrants were
18:28coming in the public schools took on a
18:31certain uh kind of heroic cast right
18:33because they were assimilating you know
18:36the children of immigrants and things
18:37like that what's wrong with that because
18:40even even people like Milton Friedman
18:41would kind of wax nostalgic about how
18:44public schools in the teens and 20s
18:47helped americanize people like him uh
18:50and whatnot they're not actually doing
18:53that I mean you have a lot of
18:54polarization right now politically and
18:56guess what 90% of kids are in government
18:58School today mhm um maybe that has
19:00something to do with a lot of the
19:01divisiveness that we see in society
19:03today if your school is not doing a good
19:05job teaching academics and they're
19:06teaching kids to to not like each other
19:09based on a mutable characteristics with
19:11Marxist ideology that could be a problem
19:14and so you start to attack each other
19:15with ad hominum as opposed to just
19:17saying hey you might be a good person I
19:20just disagree with you based on XYZ I
19:22think you're logic is flawed I I think
19:24too many cases if you're not getting a
19:26good education you're going to attack
19:28people
19:29people's uh motives as opposed and them
19:32as a human being as opposed to just
19:33their arguments so what happened in the
19:36uh 50s why did uh why did Freeman start
19:39talking about school choice I mean Brown
19:42versus Board of Education and so
19:45actually in anybody know Phil Magnus he
19:48had a he had a good article in the Wall
19:50Street Journal called School choices
19:51anti-racist history so some people claim
19:55that school choic is rooted in in
19:57segregation and people trying to get
19:59away from the desegregated government
20:01run schools and they wanted to flee to
20:03private schools well guess what in the
20:051950s in Virginia at least Phil Magnus
20:08talks about this in the Wall Street
20:09Journal the teachers unions actually
20:11locked arms with staunch segregationists
20:14to block School vouchers because they
20:17knew that private school choice would
20:19lead to more racial integration as
20:21opposed to segregation because the
20:23public schools are already so racially
20:25segregated and if you look at the
20:27evidence that we have today there's
20:29eight studies on this topic seven of
20:31them find overall that school choice
20:34leads to more racial integration as
20:37opposed to segregation why why does it
20:39do that because the government schools
20:41are already so segregated by ZIP code
20:43and that it reflects race and income and
20:45other factors too and so school choice
20:47is an equalizer the families who are
20:50able to afford private school tuition
20:51and fees as right now are the most
20:53advantaged families and so if you give
20:55the the funding to the parents we spend
20:57about $20,000 on average in the US per
21:00student per year average private school
21:02tuition in fees is only about 12 to
21:0413,000 per student year per year
21:07nationally if you give that money to the
21:09parents even if you give them half
21:1010,000 you can save taxpayer money but
21:12you can also allow for more families to
21:14access opportunities who wouldn't had
21:17those opportunities before could you
21:18talk a little bit about the history of
21:20Catholic schools and all of this because
21:23you know Catholic schools were and I
21:26guess they still are the largest kind of
21:28single type of private school up through
21:31about 1960 when people started uh you
21:33know leaving cities uh in big numbers
21:36Catholic schools were an important kind
21:38of competitive alternative to uh public
21:42schools in cities um what's going on
21:45with that now so the the government run
21:48schools were deao Protestant schools a
21:50long time ago so the Catholics set up
21:52their own schools and that's so that's
21:53why today you have the I mean I think
21:56it's about half of all the private
21:58religious schools are Catholic schools
22:01and they tend to be lowered cost they've
22:02been around for a long for a while
22:04they''re subsidized by Church donations
22:07and and and other Revenue sources as
22:09well and endowments and so those are
22:12that's that's why most of them exist uh
22:15why so many of them exist today and then
22:17there there was an attempt to to try to
22:21fight back against the Catholic schools
22:23with the Blain amendments so Most states
22:25have something called a Blain Amendment
22:28where they tried to pass this in
22:29Congress to prevent any of the public
22:31school funding to go to the Catholic
22:33schools that had been set up and so when
22:35they met American they met you know they
22:37basically wanted they didn't want you to
22:39be Catholic immigrants you you wanted to
22:42assimilate to be
22:44Protestant um and so they didn't have
22:47the votes in Congress and so they
22:49started pushing these bills in different
22:51state legislatures and they were able to
22:52pass them in more than 30 States and
22:57most recently uh we've had a couple of
22:59of good Supreme Court cases in 2020 and
23:03in 2022 that basically dealt a mortal
23:06blow to the Blain amendments and they B
23:08they most recently said one school
23:10choice is not a violation of The
23:12Establishment Clause some people will
23:13say it's a separation of church and
23:15state issue but it's not for the same
23:17reason that pel grants can be used at
23:19religious universities pre programs with
23:22State funding can be used at religious
23:24pre because the funding primarily
23:27benefits the family the student and then
23:29you can choose religious or
23:30non-religious providers same thing with
23:32Medicaid vou vouchers basically for
23:34hospitals you can use those if you want
23:37at religiously Affiliated hospitals and
23:39no one says this is a violation of The
23:41Establishment Clause it's not um
23:43establishing a state religion and so uh
23:48the 2022 2020 Carson uh 2022 Carson BM
23:52and 2020 Montana V Espinosa case they
23:56both ruled that one uh they reminded
23:59everybody this is not a violation of the
24:01establishment cause but two if you're
24:02going to have a school choice initiative
24:04you can't exclude religious schools from
24:07benefiting because that would be a
24:09violation of the free exercise clause
24:11and it would also be a fourth I would
24:12argue a 14th Amendment issue um let's
24:15talk a bit about the parent Revolution
24:18and the way that you anchor it to the
24:20covid experience so I mean there have
24:22there have been experiments uh you know
24:25more or less robust more or less
24:26explicit with school choice from the
24:28beginning including a lot of people
24:31leaving you know cities or or moving
24:33from one town to another because of you
24:35know the the perceived quality of public
24:38schools um let's walk through how covid
24:41really supercharged just poured gasoline
24:44on school choice yeah we're winning so
24:47much I'm almost getting tired of winning
24:49not yet we haven't gotten in New York
24:51yet we can talk a little bit later about
24:52how we bring school choice to Bluer
24:54areas and Union controlled areas but
24:57look before 2021 we had zero states with
25:00Milton freedman's vision of universal
25:03school choice what do I mean by that
25:05every single family in States like
25:07Arizona they were one of the first
25:08movers can now take their child's State
25:11portion of Education dollars to the
25:12education provider they're choosing no
25:14more picking winners and losers it's
25:16regardless of income background zip code
25:18every family can take that money to a
25:21public school how much is that it's
25:23about 7,000 in Arizona half of the total
25:26they spend about $14,000 per student so
25:29it's usually State portion is half and
25:31they can use that to go to a school they
25:34can use it to take trips they can I mean
25:37it's the schooling it's it's it can't be
25:40used for drugs okay can't do that so you
25:44could it has to be used for Education
25:46pretty broadly defined yes I'm sure you
25:48can make it how many well how many
25:50people uh you know how many families or
25:52how many kids are participating in in
25:55Arizona actually when they open the
25:57floodgates in 201 22 they broke the
25:59government website now you can say it's
26:01because it was a government website we
26:03didn't know it first is there actually a
26:05lot of people using this when the data
26:07came in they went from they had an
26:09existing program of about 10,000
26:11kids right after that past 2022 we now
26:14fast forward to today having about
26:1680,000 kids using the program so this is
26:19why the unions are so terrified of
26:21competition they know that families are
26:22going to flock to these opportunities
26:24when given the choice but in places like
26:27Arizona yeah you could take that money
26:28to the assigned school if you want if
26:30you like your public school you can keep
26:31your public school for real this time un
26:33like with your doctor the public schools
26:36believe it or not they do get better
26:37they up their game in response to
26:39competition most studies find that 26 of
26:4229 find more school choice it's a rising
26:45tide that lifts all boats the public
26:46schools actually do get a little better
26:49it's not extremely better but it's still
26:52it's everybody UPS their game right I
26:55mean the the the claim by the other side
26:57is going to destroy the public schools
26:58and if a little bit of competition is
27:00going to destroy your institutions maybe
27:02you deserve to die uh but that's not
27:05actually what happens they do get better
27:08and so we've had 12 States now going
27:10Universal on school choice again you
27:11might say that's only 12 States but
27:13that's 12 States and that's all I mean
27:16Arizona started down this road in 2011
27:19but then it jacked up over the past
27:21couple years and are all of the other
27:24states that have joined are they all
27:26kind of postco or during the y 2021 was
27:29the first it was actually West Virginia
27:32Arizona um I would say passed a better
27:35policy in
27:3620122 that was immediately Universal
27:39West Virginia's a lot of people say
27:40Arizona's first because they got to
27:42Universal first but West Virginia in
27:442021 passed the bill that became
27:46Universal after a couple was this mostly
27:49you know parents when schools got shut
27:51down and everything shifted to you know
27:54remote learning people just looking and
27:56being like I can't believe this or yeah
27:59I mean I think it had a lot to do with
28:01the values misalignment and again some
28:04red states have taken one approach to to
28:06ban certain Concepts and I I don't think
28:08that's it look if if you if you if you
28:11don't like the concept that is a step in
28:13the right direction it's unenforceable
28:15though I mean these are governments
28:16they're not accountable and so what
28:18we've seen in States like my home state
28:20of Texas and Idaho in Iowa and Tennessee
28:23a lot of red States they've banned CRT
28:25for example and explain that's critical
28:27r
28:29div students into oppressors and the
28:32oppressed and a lot of people might even
28:34disagree on what the definition is this
28:35is another part of the problem you might
28:37teach something through a critical race
28:39Theory lens that might actually be okay
28:41to some parents whereas when you see
28:43kids getting separated by their race in
28:46in class and then doing having to do the
28:47privileged walks and and stuff like that
28:49families aren't happy with those things
28:51now is that defined as critical race
28:52Theory a lot of people disagree on what
28:54that definition do you think it was
28:56mostly a values m alignment where people
28:59were looking and I like I don't
29:01recognize what kid my kids are being
29:04taught and it wasn't about you know God
29:06they're not learning any math they're
29:07not learning how to read because the
29:09advantaged families already their kids
29:11were still fine for the most part and so
29:15for a long time we did make the argument
29:17for school choice which is a good
29:19argument that there are kids who are
29:21stuck in objectively failing schools
29:23based on math and reading test scores MH
29:25but the school Choice Movement wasn't
29:28ratch it up a lot of wins with Democrats
29:30this wasn't translating to victories in
29:32terms of Democrats actually voting for
29:34it unfortunately as everybody in the
29:36room knows politicians respond more to
29:39power than than logic or morality and so
29:42we could hit them over the head with
29:44these with data points and arguments
29:45from the left and the right and they
29:47weren't voting for it well school choice
29:50kind of changed that with Co because one
29:53it did expose a lot of the rot with
29:55academics not doing really well but also
29:57more importantly it mobilized parents
30:00because they thought their kids are
30:01being brainwashed for 13 years of their
30:03lives for seven hours a day uh in values
30:06that were not aligned with their own so
30:08that got parents really upset and they
30:11tried to go back to the Schoolboard
30:12meetings with this fairy tale model of
30:14democratic accountability that actually
30:16does not work in practice it's not true
30:19accountability and we all saw that right
30:20before our eyes and families were
30:23labeled as domestic terrorists by the
30:25national school boards Association which
30:27sent a letter to Biden implying that
30:29under the Patriot Act of all things
30:31parents should be investigated for quote
30:33unquote domestic terrorism get this an
30:36earlier version of that letter that
30:38wasn't circulated publicly actually
30:40called for the military to be deployed
30:42to Schoolboard meetings the National
30:44Guard to be deployed to school board
30:46meetings to bully and silence parents
30:48into submission uh but the the the sign
30:51of Hope is that families were only
30:54emboldened to push back even harder and
30:572016 states have since left the national
31:00school boards Association what is the
31:02national school boards Association who
31:04knows what benefit they actually provide
31:06and maybe that some states started well
31:07we don't actually need them very much
31:09they provide lobbying assistance at the
31:11federal level and so a lot of the state
31:14school boards and the local school
31:15boards are were part of the national
31:17school boards Association um so you know
31:21in the states that really pushed kind of
31:23a universal school choice approach where
31:25and I I guess does it often work in
31:27lockstep that that they create education
31:29savings accounts or something like that
31:31where you can take a large chunk of
31:33money and spend it how you see fit do
31:35they also tend to increase the number of
31:37charter schools or liberalize
31:38homeschooling laws so charter schools
31:42that were already legal before you know
31:44in like 47 States so Charter Schools but
31:48they can be there's more or less right
31:49more more or less and there's tweaks to
31:51the laws like in Virginia they have
31:53seven charter schools because McDonald's
31:56has to approve every Burger King opening
31:58the school district has to approve every
32:00charter school that opens up of course
32:02they're not going to approve the good
32:04their good competition because they
32:05don't want to lose any money H which was
32:08also interesting in in Pennsylvania and
32:10in California I believe when the
32:13government schools closed and they were
32:14failing with zoom school they started
32:17lobbying the government and they were
32:18successful in Pennsylvania and
32:19California probably other states too
32:22they prevented the funding from
32:23following students to Virtual Charter
32:26Schools it showed you had nothing to do
32:28with safety they even admitted was we
32:30don't want to lose any money we're
32:31closed um we don't know how to do Zoom
32:33School the virtual Charters have been
32:35doing this for decades families realized
32:38that but then they got blocked because
32:40so many um families wanted it I mean it
32:43just sheer protectionism before we
32:46continue with the Reon interview I want
32:48to tell you about today's sponsor
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34:01can join in and support their efforts
34:04and now back to the reason interview as
34:07long as we're talking about Virginia you
34:09spend a good chunk of time and there's a
34:11kind of breakdown of how the
34:14gubernatorial race between Glenn yunan
34:16and Terry mlli kind of is a is you know
34:19the paradigmatic example of how
34:22education Choice became Central to a
34:25gubernatorial race That Then followed
34:27through can you talk walk us through
34:29that anybody remember Terry I don't
34:30think parents should be telling schools
34:31that they should teach mcalli from
34:33Virginia he was in a state that went 10
34:35points to Biden just the year before the
34:38former governor of Virginia basically an
34:40incumbent he lost to Glenn yunan by six
34:43points with education voters a
34:45republican a republican winning on the
34:48issue of education and guess what that
34:50was the number two issue in that
34:51election education is usually at the
34:53bottom of the list of priorities but
34:55after that Gaff or him letting the the
34:58mass slip Terry mccauliff on the final
35:00debate stage Glenn yunan was smart he
35:02turned that into an attack ad on
35:04mccauliff and Terry he didn't back away
35:07from his anti-parent rhetoric he kind of
35:09quadrupled down up until election night
35:11where he had Randy weart of all people
35:14stumping for him the night before the
35:16election the the school closer was his
35:18campaign closer it's a bold strategy
35:20cotton let's see if it works out for him
35:22it didn't work out for him and a
35:24Virginia mom even went on CNN the next
35:26day and said that that was was the nail
35:28in the coffin moment for her and
35:31so youngan basically laid out a
35:34blueprint for political success for
35:36Republicans to talk about school choice
35:39and education policy and a in a wide
35:41umbrella of parental rights and
35:43education because if you want to argue
35:45with that position you got to basically
35:47take the far socialist position that you
35:50believe kids belong to the government
35:52and that parents shouldn't be in the
35:54driver's seat it puts them on defense
35:56and Terry just did not know how to
35:57handle it and so what did he do he just
35:59kept quadrupling down uh with the unions
36:02as opposed to the parents and I think
36:04that has led to some Republicans leaning
36:07into the issue trying to become the
36:09parents party and it's become more of a
36:11GOP litmus test issue if you think about
36:14Tennessee 10 of the Republicans running
36:17for house in the Tennessee primaries in
36:202022 were indorsed or funded by the
36:22teachers unions nine of them
36:25lost it became a a form of political
36:29suicide uh the political Kiss of Death
36:32to accept the teachers union endorsement
36:34postco as a republican in my home state
36:37of Texas our our Senate passed Universal
36:39school choice last year um it moved over
36:43to the house where he had Republican
36:46majority and 21 of the Republicans voted
36:49with all the Democrats against their own
36:51party platform to kill school choice to
36:53side with the status quo 18 of those
36:55guys were already endorsed by the state
36:57of of the Nea but out of the 21 14 of
37:01them are gone and so Republicans usually
37:05win their reelection 95% of the time
37:08that Trend was inverted in Texas and
37:11look in in 2022 there wasn't a red wave
37:14we all were talking about the red that
37:16didn't really happen there wasn't a Blue
37:17Wave but there was a school choice wave
37:19this didn't just happened in Texas and
37:21Tennessee nationally my group targeted
37:2369 incumbents what is your group the
37:25American Federation for children not the
37:27reason Foundation it's a separate
37:29organization I am a senior fellow at the
37:31reason Foundation sure we only have
37:33senior fellows though I just want to
37:35point that out um you know explain you
37:38know it's it's easy to understand that
37:40teachers unions as a political force
37:43because in almost every state school
37:47teachers are either the single biggest
37:49block of employees or close to it and
37:52then you know they have families and
37:53things like that it's easy to understand
37:55how they can bring lot of money and a
37:58lot of power and a lot of intensity to
38:00things who are the parents just kind of
38:02loosely Affiliated or you know what
38:05what's happening there like how do they
38:07show up on mass uh and vote in a
38:10particular way his moms for Liberty one
38:12group I came out to New York City a
38:14couple months ago and spoke at one of
38:15their events and Ma are you here yeah
38:18she spoke there as well thanks for
38:19coming uh I got one with me thank thanks
38:22for being here uh but look parents
38:25thought they were powerless before and
38:27so if it's a coordination problem
38:29economists in the room are really
38:31familiar with this but this is why
38:33special interests usually get what they
38:35want they're coordinated and they have a
38:36lot of funding but parents even though
38:38there's more of them they're dispersed
38:40it's a dispersed cost to have the status
38:42quo well mods for Liberty and other
38:45groups like that have shown parents that
38:47they have a support group basically if
38:49they stick their neck out we're going to
38:51come to defend you you're not going to
38:53be the only one showing up at the school
38:54board meeting and social media has
38:56helped with that too uh where you kind
38:58of you can have your social group even
39:00if it's not an in-person group where
39:02where people will support you when you
39:04go out and fight back at the school
39:06board meetings or in other Arenas as
39:08well but parents have also fought back
39:09just at The Ballot Box and school choice
39:13again has become a GOP litus test issue
39:16and some Democrats are coming along too
39:18which is uh which is a welcome change in
39:21chapter 4 I coin a term I call a phrase
39:25I call bipartisan ship or
39:28nonpartisanship through hyper
39:30partisanship it might sound
39:31counterintuitive at first yeah I have no
39:33idea what you're talking about yeah so
39:34how can something so politically
39:36polarizing the short run turn into
39:38something that is more nonpartisan in
39:41the medium to long term well it has all
39:44to do with the reality of what I pointed
39:46out earlier that politicians don't
39:47really care all that much about logic or
39:49morality they care about power and
39:51politics and so you got to hit them
39:53where it hurts at The Ballot Box and
39:56with the more that the op leans into
39:58parental rights as a political winner I
39:59don't care which party it is if there's
40:01one party that's a first mover on the
40:03issue and it's popular among voters
40:06Republican Democrat and independent well
40:08then the elected officials on the other
40:10side will feel pressure to to follow
40:13through as well and we're seeing some of
40:15the things that I called in the book
40:16happening in real life right now one
40:18thing that I did include in the book was
40:20Josh Shapiro and Pennsylvania in 2022 he
40:23was up by double digits in the polls his
40:26opponent Doug mastriano started calling
40:27him a hypocrite he said hey I support
40:30school choice you went to private school
40:32why don't you support it too Josh
40:34Shapiro was politically Smart in one way
40:37in that he changed his education
40:39platform to include private school
40:41choice even said Lifeline scholarships
40:44was what's the name of a bill that was
40:46one run by a republican that year and so
40:49that a high-profile Democrat felt
40:51compelled to Signal support for for
40:54private school choice was is good news
40:57as Milton Freedman once famously said
40:59the way that you change things is not
41:01about getting the right people into
41:03office the way that you truly change
41:05things is by creating a climate of
41:07opinion where it becomes politically
41:09profitable for the wrong people to do
41:12the right thing and so Josh Shapiro
41:14might have been looking over to Terry
41:16mccauliff and saying I don't want that
41:17to happen to me he was up in the polls
41:19too and then JB pritzker deep blue
41:22Illinois he sucks for a lot of reasons
41:24but I mean 3 weeks before the election
41:27he answered a candidate survey saying he
41:29would support the same program and
41:32saving the scholarship program the same
41:34one that he vowed to eliminate that he
41:36fir when he first ran for office in
41:392017 now the program got nixed last year
41:42in Illinois but he did respond to the
41:45Chicago Tribune again last year saying
41:48if a bill got to his desk he would sign
41:50it to save the program he probably knew
41:52that bill was never going to make it to
41:53his desk but that's not my point I
41:56wasn't writing those articles in the
41:57journal to say you should go vote for
41:59these people the reason was is to try to
42:01put a spotlight on it to try to keep the
42:04keep them uh to hold their word and if
42:06they don't have some political
42:07ramifications for them in the future for
42:09lying are schools of choice better than
42:14residential assignment schools or or how
42:16do you measure that or is that the right
42:19Criterion look I don't even the
42:21preponderance of the evidence suggests
42:23that private and Charter Schools do more
42:26with less money they get better academic
42:28outcomes even when you're looking at the
42:30lottery based studies in in New York
42:33City there's a study published in
42:34Journal of political economy by Dobby
42:36and frier and they found that winning a
42:39lottery so it's like a medical trial you
42:41can compare the winners to The Losers of
42:43the lottery and you can say that the
42:45students are basically the same on all
42:47background demographic characteristics
42:48on average they found that winners of
42:51the lottery for male students they had a
42:54complete elimination through the study
42:56period of the likelihood of
42:57incarceration and so the the control
43:00group The Losers of the lottery about
43:02four or five% of them were incarcerated
43:04through the study period 0% of the
43:06lottery winners for female students they
43:09found about a 59% reduction in the
43:12likelihood of teenage pregnancies and so
43:15the reason I bring up these other types
43:17of outcomes too is that parents are
43:18choosing schools for a lot of different
43:20reasons and test scores that's just one
43:23part of the equation families want to
43:25get their kid in a safe environment they
43:27they want to their kid in an environment
43:28that's aligned with their values and
43:31test scores and academics are part of
43:33the
43:34the in preparing for this I looked at
43:37wallet Hub which is not necessarily the
43:39the greatest source of anything but they
43:40ranked School outcomes and States like
43:43Massachusetts Connecticut New Jersey
43:46have really high performing Public
43:48Schools based on you know they use 33
43:50criteria including ACT scores and how
43:54many schools in the you know are ranked
43:56in the top quarter of this or that and
43:59then states with a lot of school choice
44:01like Arizona and Florida and Nevada do
44:04kind of poorly so I mean how do you how
44:07do you address like is the ultimate kind
44:11of marker of school choice is it
44:13parental satisfaction um or is it test
44:16scores or how do how do you kind of
44:18quantify I think it's all the above
44:20right I mean it's based on what the
44:22parent wants right we it shouldn't be
44:25based on some average test score then
44:26also if you look at the data out of
44:28Florida the urban Institute has
44:30something called uh America's grade book
44:34and so you can plug in controls for
44:36different demographics of students
44:38across States and then once you do that
44:40in Florida despite them spending far
44:42less than the national average they're
44:44ranked in the top five for a whole host
44:47of different outcomes academically after
44:50controlling for differences in students
44:51and they do have a lot of school choice
44:52and they've also found there have been
44:5411 studies in Florida on the topic 10 of
44:56them positive more school choice better
44:59outcomes in the public schools and just
45:00think about it over time in Florida they
45:03were at the bottom of the pack on the
45:04nation's report card a couple decades
45:06ago fast forward to today as they've
45:08expanded school choice they've gotten a
45:11lot better and then the latest study on
45:13this is actually out of Florida by David
45:15figlio and his research team in the
45:18American economics Journal a top
45:19economics Journal finding again more
45:22school choice better outcomes in the
45:23public schools but at the end of the day
45:25this isn't really public versus private
45:27or government versus private this isn't
45:29parent versus teacher it's about Pro
45:32Freedom
45:33pro-choice and and families having the
45:35opportunity to choose and you might be
45:37in a school that's high rated school
45:41you're getting good test scores but if
45:43you're being bullied each day your
45:44mental health isn't in the right space
45:47and your friends are at another
45:49institution family should be able to
45:51choose to go somewhere else so it's
45:54quality is not one siiz fits all either
45:56and it differs based on it's just like I
45:58I I mean I think that's you know really
46:01key to the the way that you talk about
46:03it in a way that I find very uh
46:05appealing um I was looking at uh I guess
46:08these are u u National Center for
46:10educational statistics uh or uh parental
46:14satisfaction for people with kids in
46:16private school so this where kids are
46:18actually going was 81% 63% for charter
46:22schools which are public schools of
46:24choice 61% for choice schools within a
46:27district setting so that's more like
46:28magnet schools and 56 for uh people who
46:32are just assigned to a school based on
46:34location so there you know it does seem
46:37like there's some broad correlation with
46:40people liking to be able to choose where
46:42their kids go to school yeah and there's
46:43tons of evidence on it there's like 30
46:45or so studies on linking private school
46:48choice to satisfaction all finding
46:50improvements um now you are really uh
46:54we'll get to uh uh questions in about 5
46:57minutes but um you know you you are very
47:01hardcore in a way a lot of school
47:02reformers are not you might have
47:04particular points of view about things
47:05like CRT or various kinds of curricula
47:08but the idea is that you know schools
47:12should be as varied and as you know
47:14experimenting and innovating all over
47:17the place does that put you in the
47:19minority of a lot of school reformers
47:21who often times will say well we know
47:23how to teach reading we know how to
47:24teach math we know what good values are
47:27and we should be enforcing that at the
47:29highest level possible so that everybody
47:32is learning the same thing yeah more
47:34from the bottom up right so yeah there
47:36are some people who think they know
47:37better than others and maybe they're
47:40right but that's not I mean you can push
47:42those views all you want right and you
47:44should if you if you have what you think
47:46is the right idea um and if you want to
47:49push that into the public school system
47:51fine but at the end of the day I'm more
47:54of a thousand flowers bloom kind of guy
47:56and I see schools basically as an
47:59extension of parenting and I think this
48:00is why this battle is so important
48:02because you have typically a special
48:05interest the minority a a teachers union
48:08controlling the minds of other people's
48:10children and you can't beat that problem
48:13and shape the direction of our country
48:14just by outp populating the other side
48:18uh because there the government schools
48:22educate 50 or so million kids a year for
48:2613 years their lives for seven hours a
48:28day those kids are going to turn out to
48:30vote for socialist policies in the
48:32future they're learning that big
48:33government is the solution to all their
48:35problems if you don't care about
48:37education policy you should because
48:39let's say you care about tax policy
48:40they're going to vote to raise your
48:41taxes later on in life but if they hate
48:43school aren't they going to vote against
48:46it I mean this you're you're making the
48:48case that Cubans who escaped pastro come
48:51here and vote for socialism I mean their
48:53their teachers might be telling them
48:54though that that the school sucks so bad
48:57because we don't have enough money so we
48:59got to raise taxes just put a point on
49:01that for people you know we're in New
49:03York City and New York State uh
49:05currently the new uh the state says they
49:08spend about $30,000 per pupil in 1970
49:13that was and this is an inflation
49:14adjusted terms it was 177,000 so New
49:17York State and there's a wide variation
49:20between school districts but for 30k a
49:23year you you know we could be doing a
49:25lot better and the charter schools they
49:27get like 80% of the funding of what they
49:29spend in the government run schools and
49:31in New York City you have a charter
49:33school cap that arbitrarily limits
49:36competition you got tens of thousands of
49:38kids on weight list each year to try to
49:39get into better charter schools and the
49:43status quo doesn't doesn't care what's
49:45interesting actually is during the
49:47election of C of of your
49:50govern um during theath hok we're not on
49:54a first name yeah yeah why didn't you
49:56show up and she's trying to improve
49:58education but she actually during the
50:01final debate it was zeldon she was
50:03running against R zeld all in on school
50:05choice they both answered in the
50:08affirmative that they would support a a
50:10lift of the charter school cap has she
50:13done anything to really pass that maybe
50:15she doesn't have the
50:17votes we're going to can we set the mic
50:21stand up uh we're going to ask one more
50:23question then we'll go to audience Q&A
50:24and you can please uh
50:27when uh hunt puts it up here if you can
50:29line up uh you can start lining up um
50:33one of the
50:34things
50:36uh uh I know uh both as a property owner
50:40as well as somebody who grew up in New
50:41Jersey in a town that had very high uh
50:44school taxes and things like that
50:47people people consider the value of
50:50their house very much tied to the
50:53perceived quality of school districts um
50:56it's also way you know of keeping
50:58certain people out and things like that
51:00is that connection the idea that well we
51:03have good schools here and we spend a
51:05lot of money on them which raises taxes
51:07which makes it more expensive which
51:09keeps it nice um is that starting to
51:11fray the association between home value
51:14and the quality of the school district
51:17yeah especially because the you know the
51:19definition of quality varies now and
51:21it's more about values than about
51:23standardized test scores MH so I think
51:26that's part of the the the new Coalition
51:29that's been fighting for school choices
51:30families who are politically Mo um
51:33powerful who could afford to live in the
51:36best school districts were seeing that
51:38these schools aren't that good either
51:40and so we've had more of a broader
51:42Coalition pushing for school choice and
51:44politics is all about organized interest
51:46pushing for what they want and when
51:48you're only saying that certain families
51:50low income families and failing school
51:52districts are benefiting well that
51:54wasn't as
51:55compelling um to to voters who thought
51:58that things were okay before so now you
51:59have a much broader Coalition I think
52:01that's been why so many politicians are
52:04being held accountable right now and
52:06it's I looked at I mean there are a wide
52:08variety of surveys and and whatnot but
52:12school choice support and this is for
52:13Universal vouchers 60% of blacks uh
52:17support Universal vouchers 60% of
52:20Hispanics 60% of whites um which is kind
52:24of fascinating because when people start
52:26to say well well this is a plot to
52:29disenfranchise racial or ethnic
52:30minorities or whatever it's like there's
52:32a
52:33broad-based support across all groups I
52:36mean look at the DC voucher program that
52:38Biden doesn't support He's a hypocrite
52:39on the issue he went to private school
52:41sent his kids to private school and then
52:42tries to pull up the ladder from behind
52:44himself to fight against education
52:45freedom for others but in DC the voucher
52:48program out there it's only about a
52:50third of what you would get in the
52:52government schools it's 10,000 per kid
52:54in scholarship money each year they have
52:56thousands kids on the wait list to get
52:57into that program and despite it
53:00spending a costing a third of what they
53:02spend in the government schools and 95%
53:05of the kids are Black Or Hispanic and
53:06the average household income of students
53:08using that program from a the most most
53:11recent day that I've seen is only about
53:13$30,000 a year it might be higher now
53:15but in DC that's a pretty low number for
53:17an entire household and um the little
53:20story that I included in the book about
53:22Florida is that look Dan santis won by
53:2520 points and 20 22 so you might not
53:27remember in 2018 he barely won by a
53:30fraction of a point against Andrew
53:33Gillum a Democrat and the story there in
53:36the headline in the Wall Street Journal
53:37the next day was that school choice moms
53:40tipped the governor's race in Florida
53:43CNN exit polling found that DeSantis
53:46overperformed with black women in
53:48particular because his opponent Andrew
53:51Gillum called to get rid of the
53:53scholarship program that was benefiting
53:55over 100,000 families at the time
53:57disproportionately lowincome families
54:00and disproportionately non-white
54:02families as well so a lot of the
54:03families who might not have agreed with
54:05Dan santis on a whole host of other
54:07issues turned education into a voting
54:09priority and they showed up in force for
54:11Dan santis and so yeah and that was a
54:14very tight uh yeah you uh WR about how
54:18uh he owed his first Victory to 100,000
54:21black women who voted for him in which
54:23was odd for a republican to get that
54:25kind of support okay let's start with
54:28questions um please just ask a question
54:31don't uh comment on how well quaffed
54:34Corey is or how much you know the the
54:38food before was wonderful or things but
54:40please just ask a question thank you
54:43he's like shoot I didn't have my name is
54:46Tom dilling and my last name comes from
54:48my hometown in Germany and I wanted to
54:51know uh what you think the role of a
54:53public school is in forming that
54:55identity because it was so important to
54:57my ancestors how how is it important to
55:00the students who go to a home uh who
55:02have a a unified Public School in their
55:04Hometown versus you know one student
55:07goes to Coca-Cola public uh private
55:10school here and someone down the street
55:12goes to Pepsi public private school
55:16that's a great question yeah I would say
55:18look uh this is some of the argument you
55:20hear in the rural opposition to school
55:22choice say it's is the lifeblood of our
55:24community it's so important to our
55:25community to the Cru of American
55:28democracy yeah it's it is the Bedrock of
55:30democracy and my response to that is if
55:33you like your public school you can keep
55:34it but for real if it's so important to
55:38have your identity tied to the
55:39government school system go have at it
55:42you should still have that option when
55:44school choice bills don't abolish the
55:46government school system altogether it
55:48does actually improve them
55:50but I don't know how much that's
55:53actually the case it's it's the theory
55:54right but in practice
55:56it doesn't seem like you know there's
55:59there's there's so many negatives
56:00associated with the government school
56:02system and that's why they fight so hard
56:04against School choices they know a lot
56:05of families aren't happy with with what
56:06they're getting do you condition do you
56:09put any conditions on taxpayer money
56:12that goes to education whether directly
56:15or indirectly to parents so yeah you
56:17know um I mentioned drugs earlier I said
56:19no drugs right okay um so yeah I mean
56:23look you gota you got to pass these
56:25things right make it politically
56:27palatable and I I as a Libertarian
56:29actually an Narco capitalist
56:31philosophically I've pushed for the
56:33least amount of red tape as possible and
56:36I would point to Arizona as being the
56:38model they have no required standardized
56:41testing no um you can't the government
56:46can't tell you what your curriculum
56:47ought to be basically all they have is a
56:51random audit each year to make sure
56:54you're spending the money on education
56:55loosely to find to make sure you're not
56:57buying big screen TVs and and drugs and
57:00other things like that thank you yes hi
57:04um in New York City during the pandemic
57:07there was there were a lot of
57:08educational activists here in New York
57:10City who were looking to change and
57:13devalue Merit and remake the public
57:16school system um and 100 I noticed at
57:20this time that 100% of them were people
57:22who either didn't have kids or had their
57:24kids in in private school or had had
57:28their kids in screen public schools and
57:31then as you say pulled up the ladder and
57:34and my idea is that shame could be a
57:37powerful
57:39motivator because how else are you going
57:41to change the educational system in a
57:44deep blue City like New York City unless
57:47you expose the people for their
57:49hypocrisy thank you yeah look I would
57:51say yes shame them um as a as as a
57:56logically oriented person like I got
57:57into this as an academic of sorts I
58:00thought if I just hit people on the head
58:01with a book full of data that they were
58:03going to vote for my policy and it was
58:05going to that's important you got to
58:06have data and the facts on your side but
58:09you have to also incentivize people
58:11through human nature and shaming them
58:13publicly and calling out hypocrisy I
58:16pull no punches in this book every time
58:18I reference an opponent it seems that
58:2099% of the time I also mentioned well
58:22they sent their kids to private school
58:24too uh including St
58:27is that effective I mean it is with v
58:29it's not going to get them to vote for
58:30it but it'll tell voters maybe I don't
58:32like this person very much and we've
58:34done polling at this nationally with
58:36real clear opinion research just ask
58:38people uh American voters if you found
58:41out that someone um on the
58:45ballot voted against school choice but
58:47then sent their own kid to private
58:49school would you be more less likely to
58:50vote for them uh surprise surprise they
58:52overwhelmingly said they'd be a lot less
58:55likely to vote for them so but to to
58:57your second part of your question how do
58:58you get uh school choice done in a deep
59:00blue
59:01State my more hopeful kind of long-term
59:04strategy is is this bipartisanship
59:07through
59:11hyperarid Union the parents as opposed
59:13to the teachers union but it's going to
59:15require one party becoming the first
59:17mover if they start to win at The Ballot
59:19Box even at the margins you'll have some
59:22defectors on the Democrat side this
59:23happened in North Carolina and in
59:25Georgia had sitting legislators on the
59:27Democrat side actually flipped to the
59:29GOP on the issue of school choice you
59:32think about I mentioned uh Illinois I
59:35mentioned Pennsylvania already Louisiana
59:37they just became the 12th state to pass
59:40Universal school choice they didn't need
59:42a single Democrat vote in their house
59:44they still passed it with super
59:45majorities but guess what 20% of their
59:48Democrats voted for the bill the first
59:50time it was called so one of the
59:53Democrats pointed out like I don't need
59:54this job I don't need the teachers Union
59:56support this is too important so that
59:58was a heroic move by representative
1:00:00Jason Hughes a democrat in in uh
1:00:03Louisiana in Nebraska they need
1:00:06two-third Super majority to end
1:00:08filibuster there because they have a
1:00:09unic Camal one chamber they need 33
1:00:12votes to get anything done they had a
1:00:14vote from Justin Wayne one of the
1:00:16Democrats who went viral calling out his
1:00:19his colleagues for being Hypocrites on
1:00:21the issue of school choice so I think
1:00:23that's the long-term strategy you have
1:00:25more these Laboratories of democracies
1:00:28uh engaging in competition to empower
1:00:30parents maybe some blue blue States come
1:00:33along maybe some blue States become red
1:00:35States and maybe just some Democrats
1:00:37defect on the issue in the the shorter
1:00:40term there's a tax credit scholarship
1:00:42that is proposed at the federal level
1:00:44called the educational choice for
1:00:45children act has 140 co-sponsors in the
1:00:48house Speaker Mike Johnson's signed on
1:00:51to it as well and it's a tax credit it's
1:00:54not government money following the child
1:00:56and every family could choose whether to
1:00:58get a tax benefit from the federal level
1:01:01for using expenses for K the 12
1:01:03education that's uh question and make it
1:01:05a question all right so my question is
1:01:08why is it so important that school
1:01:10choice be Universal and maybe this is a
1:01:12common question you get but you know
1:01:14from many people's perspective it's like
1:01:17before you know Rich families who are
1:01:18sending their kids to private schools
1:01:20anyway were paying property taxes but
1:01:22they're paying out of their own pocket
1:01:24now they're getting you know, of dollars
1:01:26to send it so so is this really the best
1:01:28use of sort of taxpayer money yeah no
1:01:30one should have to pay twice no one
1:01:32should have to to pay once for the
1:01:34government schools through tax systems
1:01:35and then not get any money back to pay
1:01:37for private school tuition and fees we
1:01:39don't restrict access to government
1:01:40schools based on income we don't say
1:01:42Bill Gates can't go to the government
1:01:43school we'll still spend money to pay
1:01:45for him to go there so at least families
1:01:47should get the average amount back
1:01:49they're paying more than the average
1:01:50into the tax system they should get at
1:01:52least some of it back and then the side
1:01:54benefit there is a political one where
1:01:56if you have more people benefiting you
1:01:58again you create a broader coalition to
1:02:01to advance the policy and to keep it
1:02:03around in Illinois we kind of mentioned
1:02:06this on the side that they got rid of
1:02:07their program it was a low-income
1:02:09targeted program and it was on the
1:02:10shopping block but my theory is if you
1:02:14had a much larger population but also a
1:02:16wider range of families benefiting they
1:02:19would fight harder to keep it which
1:02:21would also benefit the kids who lost
1:02:22their scholarships so you have a kind of
1:02:25a
1:02:26it yes it benefits the higher income
1:02:28families too but it also can save the
1:02:31program to keep the lower income
1:02:33families getting the scholarship so this
1:02:35I mean this is the inverse of the
1:02:36argument that social security has to go
1:02:38to everybody because otherwise if it's
1:02:41just for poor people people won't
1:02:43support it exactly you want to structure
1:02:45school choice like Social Security but
1:02:47you're still saving tax M terrible
1:02:49program you're still say yeah but just
1:02:51politically speaking to keep it going uh
1:02:54you don't want to make it like food
1:02:55stamps where on the chop chopping block
1:02:57um and
1:03:00then the yeah the other response to that
1:03:03is look we tried this incremental stuff
1:03:06before and we thought that if we just
1:03:08started small and get bigger later then
1:03:11the Unions would shut up they would stop
1:03:13acting like the sky is falling well that
1:03:15does nothing to they're at Volume 11 no
1:03:18matter what whether it's 1% of the
1:03:20population or 100% of the population you
1:03:22might as well mobilize your side to pass
1:03:25the policy
1:03:26because you're not going to do anything
1:03:27to lower the volume on the other side so
1:03:29it is a political calculation uh but I
1:03:32it still does disproportionally benefit
1:03:34the least advantaged more than anybody
1:03:36thank you um we're going to do two more
1:03:39questions so make them brief and uh
1:03:42questiony it's mostly my fault I I
1:03:44answer three questions no no don't I'm
1:03:47sorry but I I have to start with a
1:03:49compliment the this is just thank you
1:03:51for for what you're doing this has to be
1:03:53the most important long-term issue for
1:03:56the country
1:03:58and I know that you
1:04:01favor uh you've written that you
1:04:04favor HSA uh savings account educational
1:04:08savings accounts over
1:04:10vouchers and I know that in Rand was
1:04:14skeptical of the vouchers she thought
1:04:15they would lead to government control so
1:04:18I I wonder how these savings accounts
1:04:20compared to the vouchers and the tax
1:04:23credits in terms of
1:04:26between the government and the end
1:04:28provider because the voucher is
1:04:30basically going directly to the school
1:04:32whereas the the funding is going into a
1:04:34savings account directed by the parent
1:04:35it's much harder to regulate when you're
1:04:37spending it on a bunch of different
1:04:38things and at the end of the day we we
1:04:41got we got to be careful not to
1:04:42overthink things you don't want to make
1:04:44perfect the enemy of the good uh because
1:04:47again the government can already
1:04:48regulate private and home education some
1:04:50people have said with government shekels
1:04:52comes government shackles well you can
1:04:54get the shackles without the shekels and
1:04:56this has happened historically it's
1:04:57happened in New York City you have the
1:04:58worst homeschooling laws on the books in
1:05:00New York according to the hslda and
1:05:03their map homeschool legal defense
1:05:04Association and they don't have any
1:05:06private school choice programs here you
1:05:08look at States like Iowa and Oklahoma
1:05:10they have Universal school choice and
1:05:12they have less regulation of
1:05:14homeschooling and so in Oregon in 1922
1:05:18they outlawed private education all
1:05:19together in in 1922 in 1925 thankfully
1:05:24the Supreme Court famously ruled that
1:05:25the child is not the mere creature of
1:05:27the state some people would be wise to
1:05:29remember those wise words today so let
1:05:31me ask you as a self professed a narco
1:05:35capitalist why aren't you talking about
1:05:37the separation of state and school why
1:05:39are tax dollars chasing anybody yeah
1:05:42this is the this is the easiest policy
1:05:44tweak to make and you know look we're
1:05:46winning on the issue and maybe we go
1:05:47there next um and maybe someone else
1:05:50makes that argument um then I I won't
1:05:52fight against you if you do go and
1:05:53advance that argument it's just going to
1:05:55be a tough tough lift in state
1:05:57legislatures to to to call for a total
1:06:00separation of Education in state so it's
1:06:04much easier to say hey look you support
1:06:07all these other initiatives where the
1:06:08funding follows the student or the
1:06:10parent or the
1:06:11family but then you don't support it for
1:06:13K through 12 and then it just exposes
1:06:15them for siding with and I may uh also
1:06:18you you know you you use the metaphor a
1:06:21lot of if you get food stamps for
1:06:23instance or or government food
1:06:24assistance they don't say you can only
1:06:27use it at the corner grocery store you
1:06:29can go to Walmart you can go to Kroger
1:06:30you can go to wherever so um that choice
1:06:34in how you spend your money is obviously
1:06:37yeah and I'm not arguing whether we
1:06:38should or should not have food stamps
1:06:40I'm arguing that if we're going to spend
1:06:41the money it's should go to people not
1:06:43the government yeah all right any
1:06:45question okay last question I'm M Maron
1:06:47and Corey as you mentioned uh we last
1:06:49saw each other at the moms for Liberty
1:06:51event so you got a taste of how blue
1:06:53Mother Jones reported on that event
1:06:55after right great how blue New York City
1:06:57is and how opposed to some of the
1:06:59policies you support New York city folks
1:07:00are what I wanted to ask you about is um
1:07:03you talked about the multiple metrics
1:07:05that can motivate parents on the school
1:07:07you know choice issue
1:07:09including um you know things Beyond
1:07:12standardized tests one of the issues in
1:07:14New York city that um is enjoined right
1:07:18now and a very significant way is the
1:07:20gender battle and sports is a big one
1:07:23and on your statistics the you know the
1:07:26majority of of Democrats a larger
1:07:28majority of Republicans but a majority
1:07:30across the board think that biological
1:07:32males shouldn't participate in corl
1:07:33sports I am going to give I'm going to
1:07:35break the rule Nick for one quick second
1:07:36and give a plug because tomorrow night
1:07:38there is a Community Education council
1:07:40meeting which is the largest School
1:07:41Board in New York City where we passed
1:07:44in March a resolution asking for a
1:07:46committee to examine the 2019 gender
1:07:49guidelines and said only that we would
1:07:53ask the committee to consider female
1:07:55athletes coaches parents to your book
1:07:58parents and relevant you know uh medical
1:08:01professionals it has produced so much
1:08:04rage and fury among the political class
1:08:05in New York including a letter signed by
1:08:0718 politicians from Jerry Nadler all all
1:08:10the way down to city council U members
1:08:13because they're calling it hateful
1:08:14discriminatory and bigoted to ask for
1:08:16the committee my question to you so by
1:08:18the way anyone who wants to come out
1:08:20it's at 10 East 15th Street on the
1:08:21Clinton school and there's public
1:08:22speaking session and you can come give
1:08:23your opinion but my question question to
1:08:25you is how can the school choice agenda
1:08:29be furthered by the fact that across the
1:08:31board politically so many parents are
1:08:33unhappy with the radical gender
1:08:36policies yeah I mean look I would
1:08:39say that is part of the reason why
1:08:42families are motivated to to to send
1:08:44their kids somewhere else and at the end
1:08:47of the day we also got to be okay with
1:08:49fames sending their kids to schools with
1:08:51curriculum that we disagree with too so
1:08:53it goes both ways and that might be one
1:08:55one of the ways you can get some
1:08:56Democrats on board and actually I
1:08:58covered this in the Wall Street Journal
1:08:59too during the co era uh we had a survey
1:09:02from Real Clear opinion research asking
1:09:05people Republicans Democrats
1:09:07Independents if they would support a
1:09:09voucher if they their public school did
1:09:13not have a mask mandate and Democrats
1:09:16supported school choice because of that
1:09:18so people support choice they dis they
1:09:20they might disagree about why
1:09:23that the reason about why you would want
1:09:26to exercise that choice um but you know
1:09:29they could imagine a scenario where they
1:09:31might not agree with the policy too and
1:09:33and so maybe if you reframe it do you
1:09:35think people would uh parents would also
1:09:38support schools that don't have sports
1:09:40teams yeah as a alternative I grew up in
1:09:43a place where it was the Catholic
1:09:45schools that generally really amped up
1:09:47uh you know sports for a variety of
1:09:49reasons and uh you know you could choose
1:09:52not to go to a big sports team uh let me
1:09:54end with uh one final question for you
1:09:57uh Corey d'angeles doct Corey d'angeles
1:10:01PhD how are teachers not a real doct
1:10:06responding um you know are they are they
1:10:09okay like the jigs up we had a great run
1:10:12are they pushing back and is you know
1:10:15one of the one of the main things that
1:10:18you talk about in the book is how
1:10:19teachers unions have been doing a very
1:10:22bad job of actually representing
1:10:24teachers
1:10:25in terms of getting more money and more
1:10:27compensation so talk a little bit about
1:10:30that I mean I talked about earlier how
1:10:31since 1970 per student spending has gone
1:10:34up by 170% teacher salaries over the
1:10:36same period have only gone up by about
1:10:3910% so the money's not making its way
1:10:41into the classroom where is it going
1:10:42well at NCS they report data from 2000
1:10:45to today on the number of students in
1:10:49the system increased by about 7% since
1:10:522000 the number of Administrators in the
1:10:54system inreased by 30 90% 90% it's
1:10:59become more of a jobs program for
1:11:01administrators than a education
1:11:03Initiative for kids and the teachers
1:11:05aren't really seeing the benefit either
1:11:07because the Monopoly has no incentive to
1:11:08put that money into the classroom it's a
1:11:11definition of insanity doing the same
1:11:12thing over and over again throwing more
1:11:14money at the pro at the problem and
1:11:16expecting different results and with
1:11:19teachers there actually have been five
1:11:21studies finding that more Charter and
1:11:23private school competition it's not a
1:11:25lot of studies but it's it is what it is
1:11:28all five of them finding positive
1:11:31effects on teacher salaries in the
1:11:33public schools too and so that's because
1:11:36if their employer is not a monopoly
1:11:37anymore they'll have an incentive to
1:11:39actually spend the money wisely on the
1:11:41teacher in the Washington Post anybody
1:11:44like the Washington Post me either um
1:11:47they they hey Broken Clock right um
1:11:50during the co era they wrote an article
1:11:53about a new JY Jersey public school
1:11:56teacher that had been in the system for
1:11:58decades left started a micro school and
1:12:02they were bragging about how happy they
1:12:03were with it they had a fraction of the
1:12:05class size five to 10 children as
1:12:06opposed to 40 uh in a class and they're
1:12:10making it the same amount of money and
1:12:11they had more autonomy not as much red
1:12:13tape and bureaucracy to deal with so
1:12:15school choice can benefit teachers too
1:12:18and there should be a teachers for
1:12:19Liberty Group we have monst for Liberty
1:12:21already we need the teachers for Liberty
1:12:23so teachers don't feel like they're the
1:12:25only ones fighting back against the
1:12:27status quo too final final question you
1:12:29went to public grammar school you went
1:12:32to a public undergrad College you went
1:12:34to a a state assisted University for
1:12:37your
1:12:38PhD um also Drive I also drive on the
1:12:41roads are you a
1:12:43hypocrite Road you're as much of a
1:12:45hypocrite as the people you say who send
1:12:47their kids to private schools but refuse
1:12:50to let people do you have do you have an
1:12:52answer to that Dr Corey yeah look I
1:12:54drive the roads doesn't mean I think the
1:12:56government should build the roads right
1:12:57or or fund the roads it's look you live
1:12:59in this in the society that you live in
1:13:01you try to do the best you can with what
1:13:03you have and tweak the system to make it
1:13:05better and hey look I I I I did what I
1:13:08did and I've gotten as far as I have
1:13:10despite the failures of the school
1:13:12system not because of them and look if
1:13:15maybe if I went to a private school
1:13:17maybe I'd be doing even better than I am
1:13:18today but yeah so like and then also I
1:13:21didn't choose what elementary school I
1:13:23went to so you can't really hold me to
1:13:24that okay fair enough we're going to
1:13:26leave it there this is Corey deangelus
1:13:29he's the author of the parent Revolution
1:13:31rescuing your kids from the radicals
1:13:33ruining our schools Cory thanks so much
1:13:36thanks Nick
1:13:39[Music]

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