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The Real History of Islam with Raymond Ibrahim — Transcript

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0:01It's not Islam, it's Islam. And it's not
0:03Muslim, it's Muslim. And the two words
0:05are connected. And what that means is
0:07submit or surrender. You know, how did
0:09it go from this guy who was just sitting
0:12in a cave, they've conquered most of
0:15what was the old Roman [music] world,
0:1766%, let's say, of the original
0:19Christian world.
0:21>> Where are these Islamic radicals?
0:23>> Where are they?
0:23>> Yeah.
0:25>> Everywhere. The UK's problems, man.
0:28They're just uh kind of mindboggling.
0:30Your Islam problem is less about Muslims
0:33and it's more about the people who are
0:34enabling and empowering them [music] and
0:36bringing them in against your will. I
0:38mean, I see in the UK radical Muslims
0:40screaming, you know, like actual Islamic
0:43jihadist stuff and they don't get in
0:45trouble, but then when a a British
0:46person fights back, they get arrested.
0:49>> Do you think [music] the religion of
0:50Islam is compatible with the West?
0:55This episode is sponsored by our friends
0:56at Hillsdale College. Right after this
0:59episode, go check out their incredible
1:01online courses which are absolutely free
1:04at hillsdale.edu/trigger.
1:07Raymond Ibrahim, welcome to
1:09trigonometry.
1:10>> Happy to be with you guys. Thanks.
1:11>> It's super cool having you on. We've
1:13been looking forward to this for a long
1:14time. Um, you are someone who's written
1:17a bunch of books, particularly about the
1:19Islam and the interaction between Islam
1:21and Christianity. Um, and the most
1:24interesting thing to start with, I
1:26think, is to talk about how Islam comes
1:28into being. It doesn't exist. Christians
1:30and Jews have existed for hundreds of
1:32years at this point. Tell us about the
1:34start of Islam.
1:36>> Sure. So, as usual, especially nowadays,
1:38there's different approaches to history
1:41and there's conspiracy theories, etc.
1:42So, what I'm going to give you is the
1:43traditional account of the coming of
1:45Islam, which Muslims believe and which
1:47Christians and non-Muslims in general
1:49also believe and they have for
1:51centuries. And I only tell you this by
1:52way of preface because as of late
1:54there's a lot of attacks on the early
1:56historicity of Islam and Muhammad and
1:58did he exist did he not exist much of it
2:01I think is kind of pmical. It's the same
2:03sorts of things that arose against Jesus
2:05etc. So anyway, the standard uh theory
2:09or sorry the standard idea the rise of
2:11Islam of course is tied up to the person
2:13of Muhammad the prophet of Islam who's
2:16born around 570 AD in the Arabian
2:18Peninsula
2:20and um by the time he's 40 around 610 he
2:24gets uh he starts having revelations as
2:26he calls it by the angel Gabriel who
2:29tells them is the word we get Quran from
2:32which means recite and so he supposedly
2:34starts reciting what becomes the Quran,
2:37the verses and this goes on year after
2:39year for decades actually and um these
2:43are all so now you have the Quran is
2:45supposedly based on that and you have
2:47suras which is essentially chapters made
2:49of a which are verses which he
2:51supposedly recited because Gabriel told
2:53him and these are supposed to be
2:55understood as the words of Allah the the
2:58god of Islam of Arabia the god in fact
3:02the word Allah is it's in Arabic it it
3:05really means God. So it's a you know
3:07when they when they translate it as God
3:08that is not unfair. Um I prefer using
3:11the you know the proper name Allah
3:13because it's more distinct. At any rate
3:16so Muhammad does all this and he starts
3:18reciting and and telling the people
3:20around him the Arabians who are by and
3:22large polytheists at this time
3:24especially he comes from the Kurish
3:26tribe. Um he starts essentially he he
3:29tries to he presents himself in a long
3:31line of the prophets that are everyone
3:33knows about all the way from Abraham to
3:36Jesus who of course is a prophet
3:38according to the Islamic tradition and
3:39according to Muhammad and anyway he so
3:42he he preaches basically a sort of
3:44staunch monotheism
3:46and that's why if you look at the Quran
3:47there's a lot of things that you know
3:49Christians and Jews would find agreeable
3:51um and then the important thing that we
3:54have to understand is because I told you
3:55goes on for year after year and it's in
3:57stages and so it actually the tone of
4:00what um what Gabriel's telling him to
4:02read kind of changes over time and it
4:05really in if you look at it it depends
4:07if you want to look at it as a cynical
4:08non-believer or if you want to look at
4:10it as a pious believer as a cynical
4:12non-believer who's trying to read
4:13between the lines who doesn't believe
4:15that Muhammad was necessarily being told
4:18to recite from God whether he made it up
4:20or whether you know it was an evil
4:22spirit talking to him and these of
4:23course are the popular non-Muslim
4:25especially Christian understandings of
4:27what Muhammad was going through. In
4:29fact, Muhammad himself when he was first
4:32broached by Gabriel thought it was a
4:34demon because it sort of it physically
4:36attacked him and squeezed him and he was
4:38sweating and he had to go to his wife
4:40Khadijah and she told him, "Oh no, this
4:42is from God." Okay. So, even even in in
4:44the own the Islamic tradition itself,
4:46it's a little curious.
4:48>> Sorry, let me interrupt you very
4:49briefly. Who who is Muhammad when he
4:51begins to receive these revelations?
4:54He's just a he's a camel driver and he's
4:57part of the Kurish tribe which is kind
4:59of noble but he's a lesser noble who's
5:00being who's he's an orphan and he's
5:02being raised by his uncle. Um and at at
5:05this time he's very relatively unknown
5:07and insignificant and he marries Kada
5:10who's an older woman and who is uh rich.
5:13She she's got wealth, she's got property
5:15and livestock and he starts essentially
5:17kind of working for her. Um, so that's
5:20that's so he's relatively an
5:21insignificant obscure person in
5:24>> in the larger scheme of things
5:26>> and that's why in the beginning so what
5:28I was trying to say is there's Muslims
5:31understand two stages.
5:33>> He starts off in Mecca. This is where
5:34he's young and where he's born and where
5:37he grows up and this is where he starts
5:38getting his early revelations. So from
5:40let's say 610 622 those 12 years it's
5:44what's called when you look at the Quran
5:45these are known as the Meccan verses.
5:47>> Mhm. And at this time, Muhammad is
5:49essentially, as I just said, he's
5:51insignificant. He's weak. He's
5:52preaching. He's an itinerant preacher.
5:54And um, you know, he has like a handful
5:56of followers. And over 10, 12 years, he
5:58has maybe a hundred followers. Most of
6:00them are family. And basically
6:04um, so his message is p is uh is not
6:08violent. It's all about um it's all
6:11about you have your religion, I have my
6:13religion. So when you get moderate
6:14Muslims and they quote from the Quran,
6:16there are in fact moderate verses uh
6:19that say there's no coercion
6:22which means there's no literally yeah
6:24you can't be coerced in matters of
6:25religion and um like I said you have
6:28your religion I have my so he was
6:29preaching that when he was weak and
6:31outnumbered because he had to um because
6:33he had no military power whatsoever and
6:36then eventually you know due to his
6:38agitations apparently the kuresh the
6:40polytheist drive him out and they mock
6:42him you're not a real prophet you're
6:43making this up, you're a liar, etc. And
6:45he ends up going to Medina at the time,
6:48Yathrrip. Uh, and there he starts
6:50getting a bigger following and he
6:52becomes essentially a political leader
6:54now. And this is so this is called the
6:56Hijra in the year 622 and he goes to
6:59Yathra and this becomes it's so
7:01important in Islam because it becomes
7:03year one in the Islamic calendar 622 and
7:07he goes there and he becomes essentially
7:08a warlord. Okay? And now he starts going
7:10on raids against everyone who does not
7:13submit. Okay, so Islam, you know, I
7:17unfortunately I always end up
7:18pronouncing things like an American.
7:20It's not Islam, it's Islam and it's not
7:22Musl it's not Muslim, it's Muslim and
7:24the two words are connected, right? A
7:26Muslim is one who does Islam. So you see
7:29the SLM and what that means is submit or
7:32surrender. Okay, so that was it. So the
7:34one who is a Muslim is someone who is
7:36submitting and surrendering to
7:38Muhammad's call because if you didn't
7:40you'd get killed at this point now that
7:42he's gone to Medina and he's become a
7:44warlord
7:44>> to Muhammad's call or to the glory of
7:46Allah.
7:47>> Well they're the same aren't they?
7:48Muhammad's presenting it as if you do
7:51what I say you're doing God's will
7:53because I'm the prophet. I'm the last
7:55prophet who has come to correct. And the
7:58other thing he positioned himself as as
8:00the last prophet meaning there's been a
8:02succession of prophets from like I said
8:03Abraham, Moses,
8:06Moses, etc. all the way to Jesus. And
8:09but the problem is Christians and Jews
8:11even though they were given scriptures,
8:12they're known as the people of the book,
8:14they've um over the years distorted it.
8:16So for example, when it comes to the
8:18person of Jesus, he was just a prophet,
8:20but the Christians made him into the son
8:22of God. And so for example in the Quran
8:24you actually have thundering verses that
8:26are attacking Christians and calling
8:28them infidels or kufur which is a very
8:30bad designation because they make Jesus
8:32to be the son of God as one example and
8:34then also attacks on the trinity and so
8:37forth. [clears throat] So he presents
8:39himself as I'm coming to basically
8:41straighten out the true religion which
8:43these Christians and Jews were handed
8:45but they've ruined it by and that's why
8:47they say till today the Bible or what
8:51the New Testament the Old Testament
8:52whichever case has been Muslims claim
8:54has been tampered with. It's not the
8:56original. Okay. And I gave you the
8:58perfect example about Jesus. So they say
9:00that that's been added in later and so
9:03forth. Anyway, so he now he goes on the
9:05war path and it becomes jihad. Jihad and
9:08that's just a word which means to strive
9:10and to struggle. And I always find it
9:13ironic because the apologist for Islam
9:15um or let me let me go back a little
9:17bit. Orientalists back in the day
9:20Europeans when they would translate the
9:21word jihad and and they had to do this.
9:23They would just usually translate into
9:24holy war which was fair. I mean it's
9:27legitimate. You can't when you're
9:29translating words you can't just sit
9:30there and break it down and get into the
9:32etmology. So that's what they do. But
9:34then the apologists lately say, "No, it
9:36doesn't mean that it means um strive and
9:38struggle." And it does, but the irony is
9:41that actually makes it worse. And it
9:42just shows you how multi-entacled the
9:44idea of jihad is because so yes, it does
9:47mean strive and struggle. Jihad, which
9:49was introduced again by Muhammad,
9:50especially now in this final phase when
9:53he's in Medina and he's on the war path.
9:55Um but historically, the only way you
9:58can struggle and and and what is it
10:00you're trying to struggle and do? like
10:01you said, it's you're trying to bring
10:02Islamic rule. You're trying to bring the
10:05glory of Allah. Okay. And uh the logic
10:08is and according to Islamic teaching
10:10till today, Islam must continue to
10:12spread including by force. Not that you
10:14have to convert by force. You're not
10:16you're not supposed to force people to
10:17convert, especially if they're people of
10:19the book because they're kind of close
10:21enough. But Islamic law has to govern
10:23the whole globe. And so if you are a
10:25Christian or a Jew, you have to live in
10:27tribute, you know, pay tribute and
10:28you're like secondass citizen. And if
10:30you're not, you you do have to convert
10:32if you're a pagan. If you're a Buddhist
10:33or a Hindu, theoretically, you're
10:36supposed to convert or die. You can't
10:37even pay tribute. So I just tell you
10:40that to give you the idea. So when they
10:42do jihad and they say it means to strive
10:44or struggle. That makes it all the much
10:47worse because historically the only way
10:48you're going to spread Islam was through
10:50force and violence. But who's who's
10:52going to accept it? you're not in Europe
10:54for example when when the time came for
10:56the jihad to enter there you know
10:58Europeans fought tooth and nail I'm sure
11:00we'll get into that but um today of
11:03course you are able to trick people and
11:06empower Islam not through force so
11:09you're today you can do there's all
11:11these classifications of different kinds
11:12of jihad which is different forms of
11:15struggle and they actually have uh I can
11:17give you quickly their names in Arabic
11:19you know uh jihad jihad of the tongue uh
11:22jihad
11:23you know, jihad of the pen, jihad, jihad
11:26of the money, you know,
11:29jihad or basically the baby jihad. All
11:32of these in their own way help empower
11:34Islam. So with your mouth, you can
11:36engage in propaganda. With your money,
11:38you can support disseminating Islam. You
11:41can support terrorist groups. And with
11:43your womb, women are encouraged to have
11:44as many kids as they can, Muslim women
11:46and men also to impregnate women,
11:49including non-Muslim women, with their
11:50seed. So you can, you know, in in
11:52inundate the world with Muslims. And
11:54these are actually, this isn't me
11:56theorizing. This is actually a lots and
11:57lots of Islamic clerks have modern day
11:59clerks um articulated what I'm telling
12:02you right now. And you know, obviously I
12:04jumped from Muhammad to this to give you
12:05an idea of what jihad is, but
12:07historically during his time, you can't
12:09get away with that stuff. You're not
12:10going to through propaganda or lying
12:13trick anyone because everyone had their
12:15own faith that they were going to fight
12:16to the death for.
12:17>> So he goes on the war path. uh he wages
12:20jihad. How much is he able to secure in
12:24terms of land by the time of his death?
12:27>> Almost the whole of Arabia as we know
12:29it. Yeah. But I mean there's still It's
12:31funny too because a lot of them just in
12:33the Hinter regions, not all of it, but a
12:36big chunk of it. And his ultimate goal
12:37was Mecca, which you know he was driven
12:39out and then he came back and um he
12:42conquered it. But um a lot of the a lot
12:45of the Hinter tribes kind of gave paid
12:47lip service and and then once he died it
12:50was interesting because what happened
12:51immediately was the Ridda wars which is
12:53known as the wars of the apostasy. Right
12:55when he died it was all these tribes
12:57especially that were away from the
12:59center immediately kind of were like
13:01okay so the jig is up he's dead we're
13:03going back to our ways and the first
13:05khalif Abu Bakr waged another new jihad
13:08against the apostates.
13:09>> What does khalif mean? Khalifa, which
13:11Khalifa in Arabic means successor.
13:14>> So he's the successor of Muhammad.
13:17>> And a caliphate is a a form of
13:19governance based on the successors of
13:21Muhammad.
13:21>> Just come back to Muhammad for one
13:23second because it's quite an
13:25extraordinary story.
13:27a man, not particularly anybody really,
13:31preaches the revelations that he's got,
13:34gets chased out of the city he's from,
13:36goes to another city, and then suddenly
13:38he's a warlord who effectively conquers
13:42a huge swath of land. Uh, what do we
13:46know about Muhammad that meant that he
13:48was able to do this?
13:50>> Well, I mean, keep in mind, by the time
13:52he dies, it's not really a huge swath of
13:54land. We're talking about the Arabian
13:56Peninsula which looks large but it's
13:57mostly desert and he has control over
13:59various tribes and I I think what you're
14:02getting at is ultim it's not he himself
14:04I mean one century after Muhammad Islam
14:07now governs all of North Africa all of
14:09the Middle East and is in the middle of
14:11France. So that's the the historical
14:14kind of um conundrum that a lot of
14:15people have been wondering about. How
14:16did it does of course start with
14:18Muhammad.
14:19>> Yeah. Um, and you know, how did it go
14:21from this guy who was just sitting in a
14:24cave talking to Gabriel to a century
14:27later essentially, you know, they've
14:29conquered most of what was the old Roman
14:32world and most of it on Christian
14:33territory and even further east into
14:35outside of the uh Roman Christian world.
14:38So that's always been the great riddle.
14:40And um earlier historians, including
14:42those who were contemporary, believe it
14:44would it had to do with the fusion of
14:45jihad, the doctrine of jihad. Because up
14:48until then um look you had war people
14:50engaged in war non-Muslim non-Muslims
14:52engaged in war Christians engaged in war
14:54but it had especially with Christians it
14:56became a just war type thing and there
14:58were limitations to how you can do it
15:00but with Muhammad he basically what I
15:03always say is the genius of Muhammad
15:05which goes to your question is that he
15:07basically fused the the sort of tribal
15:10mores of his society and rearticulated
15:14them rather than fuse but he fused them
15:16with theology and rearticular ated them
15:18through sort of a a theological
15:20paradigm. So they became okay. So what
15:22is tribalism? The tribalism of Arabia
15:25which also prevailed in most tribal
15:26societies, pastoral societies was
15:29basically what is tribalism? It's me and
15:31my kin. You know that's it. Everyone
15:32outside of the tribe is the enemy.
15:34That's how tribalism works. It's not
15:36that we're not your friends. You are the
15:37enemy. You exist for me to kill and
15:39plunder and enslave and do whatever
15:40with. And um and the tribe of course you
15:44know the f the closest is the you know
15:46the the the nuclear family and then it
15:48keeps spreading you know cousins and
15:49whatever so it keeps growing.
15:51[clears throat] What Muhammad did is he
15:53maintained that paradigm which was
15:56integral to the Arab society that he was
15:58born in but like I said he re
16:00rearticulated with these Islamic
16:01teachings. So now you it so now you
16:05still hate people. The Quran commands pe
16:08Muslims to hate, not outside tribal
16:11people, but anyone who's not a Muslim.
16:13And you can see how that's tribalistic
16:15because we are the ummah, right? The the
16:17nation, we are the Muslims. Everyone
16:19outside of it, we are commanded to hate.
16:21And this is in the Quran. This is Quran
16:2364 where Allah says, you have a good
16:26good example in Abraham or Ibraim. Um
16:29because and so and this gives you
16:31another really good example of what I'm
16:33talking about how how um Islam
16:35appropriates the biblical figures but
16:37recasts them in a way that validates
16:40itself. So they say so we know the
16:42Abraham from the Old Testament in the
16:44Bible he leaves what God calls him he
16:46leaves what is it the land of you know
16:48he he begins the great migration uh
16:51towards the holy land which eventually
16:53gets conquered Joshua etc. Um, but when
16:57he leaves Abraham in the Bible, there's
16:59nothing about hating anyone. In the
17:00Quran, all of a sudden, God Allah tells
17:02Muslims, you have a good example in
17:04Abraham because he told his kin, "We
17:06hate you and enmity will last between us
17:09until you believe in Allah alone." And
17:10so that became sort of an Islamic and in
17:13the Quran, it also says similar things
17:15about how a true Muslim can't he has to
17:17have these feelings and disassociate
17:19from his father, his mother, his
17:21brother, his his wife. I have an Islamic
17:24clerk recently who I translated a a
17:25while back who literally says because of
17:27this doctrine you can as a Muslim marry
17:30a Christian or a Jewish woman people of
17:32the book because that is permitted in
17:33Islam but you have to hate them and you
17:35have to show them you hate them but you
17:37can copulate with them and you know but
17:39you always have to make sure they know
17:41you you hate them. Okay. So this is an
17:43ironclad teaching and as you can see how
17:46so this is tribalism of course 101 but
17:48now it has a theological veneer
17:50>> and then so what what do you do in
17:52tribes? We hate each other. Well I go
17:54and I plunder you. Right? So that became
17:55jihad. Jihad is warfare on the outsider
17:59who I'm already bred to hate. I I could
18:03say I mean in a in a secular setting
18:04tribalism not doesn't necessarily I
18:06would I wouldn't say teach you to hate
18:07the outsider. You just fear him. They're
18:09they're outsiders and you can kill them.
18:11But it's much more when you really hate
18:13that person. And this this is something
18:15we can get into because it's really this
18:16is the whole the heart of the matter to
18:19me. This doctrine that I'm I'm
18:20belaboring and it in Arabic it's kind of
18:23it's it's a dichotoized doctrine is
18:25called alat two Arabic words. Well that
18:28means loyalty and love for Muslims which
18:30we can put that aside. And what I'm
18:32looking at is the barat which is hatred
18:34and enmity for non-Muslims. Okay. And so
18:36that manifests in jihad. And um so
18:40anyway, so so and then if you die,
18:43right? So you're the warrior, you hate
18:45the infidel, you do jihad. Now in a
18:48secular setting, you that happens all
18:50the time historically, even in the
18:51present day, and people go fight to
18:53plunder, right? But now if you win,
18:56well, you get all these whatever the
18:58booty, you know, animate and inanimate
19:00you can gain. And if but if you die, you
19:02get even more. Now you go straight to
19:05heaven, straight to paradise where it's
19:07again hedonistic and materialistic and
19:08you get women and you know it's very
19:11carnal the way it's described in the
19:12Quran. Okay? You know there's beautiful
19:14boys circulating around looking like
19:16pearls and these supernatural women who
19:18you will copulate with in perpetuity who
19:21are made specifically uh for sex. Okay.
19:24And rivers of wine etc.
19:26>> Rivers of wine.
19:27>> Yeah. Yeah. Now you can drink wine once
19:29you get to heaven. But not here.
19:32I'm sorry. May maybe rivers of honey or
19:34wine, but I know there is wine.
19:36>> Yeah, sorry. I just Sorry, that just
19:38took me
19:39>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It might something I'm
19:40I'm being it's poetic language is being
19:42used and I you know, but definitely but
19:45I know I do know alcohol is permissible
19:47then because that's something they talk
19:48about. Um so my point is the genius of
19:51Muhammad if you're asking is that he
19:53just took that tribalism but
19:55rearticulated in a way that it became a
19:57win-win thing. So now when I go and
19:59plunder the outsider, the non-Muslim,
20:02the infidel, I'm the good guy now. I'm
20:04pious. And if I win and I subjugate,
20:08kill, whatever, take and conquer, well
20:11then, you know, I'm I'm even more
20:12righteous. And if I die, I get the
20:14highest level of paradise. So that was
20:16one of the earliest um interpretations
20:19by non-Muslims as to as to the efficacy
20:22of jihad. It's not very popular
20:24nowadays. You know, your your average
20:25secular historian will laugh at this and
20:27tell you no, no, but but your average
20:30secular historian will also tell you no
20:31one really knows how to explain the Arab
20:33conquests and how rapid they were
20:35because uh you know they shouldn't by by
20:37any means they should not have done what
20:39they did. The most popular theory is
20:41that the two contending powers that the
20:43Arabs eventually in the seventh century
20:45conquered Rome or Bzantium and the
20:47Cassanian Persians were so weak because
20:49they had been fighting each other. So,
20:50that's kind of the most popular theory,
20:53but still, I don't think that's uh
20:54convincing in and of itself.
20:56>> The [snorts] news doesn't just tell you
20:58what's happening. It so often tells you
21:00what to think is happening. And these
21:02days, the biggest red flag isn't what's
21:04said, it's what gets left out. That's
21:06why I use Ground News. It's the only
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22:14So Raymond, so we have Muhammad. By the
22:17end of his life, he has conquered the
22:19Arabian Peninsula. He dies. So what
22:22happens next? Who comes after him?
22:24>> The the the successor Abu Bakr who was
22:27also his father-in-law and whose
22:29daughter Aisha, the young, you know,
22:31child bride of Muhammad, one of his
22:33wives that he married, um he becomes a
22:36successor but only for two years because
22:37he's elderly and he dies. And so he he's
22:39his claim to fame is what I was saying,
22:40the Ridda wars, the apostasy wars. Mhm.
22:43>> which is so he's the one that really
22:44consolidates Arabia more than Muhammad.
22:46Muhammad it begins with and there's a
22:48lot of um you know like I said you know
22:51um nominal submission to him but also a
22:54lot of real submission but once he dies
22:56Abu Bakr those two years he's known as
22:58the guy who brings in and really
23:00consolidates Arabia and then under the
23:02the the the second khalif um Omar Omar
23:06the first this is when the great Arab
23:08conquest begin. So from 636 is uh which
23:13is when Omar becomes the khalif. This is
23:15when the jihad erupts on everyone
23:19around. Okay. And of course so Arabia
23:21the first part they attack is what's
23:23called greater Syria which really
23:24encompasses the entire you know eastern
23:26Mediterranean.
23:27>> Syria all the modern day countries that
23:29you can think of Lebanon, Israel, uh
23:31Jordan portions of Iraq people forget
23:34were actually very Christian. But they
23:36also attack Persia. you know they go
23:38there and even go further um and this is
23:41all dur so during Muhamm Omar's
23:44caliphate which I think lasts a decade
23:47>> um that's when you get the massive Arab
23:49conquest so Egypt was conquered um
23:51around 640 641 and like I said all the
23:55greater greater Syria there's a pivotal
23:56battle the battle of the Yarmmuk I wrote
23:58my master's thesis on that actually 25
24:01over 25 years ago because it's that
24:03pivotal um historians call it the most
24:05consequential battle in history Because
24:08had the Arabs been defeated at the
24:10battle of Yarmmuk, which is a river in
24:12in Syria, um it's believed that, you
24:15know, history could have been completely
24:16different. But because they beat the
24:18Romans, that's when it was like a domino
24:20effect and they started splur conquered,
24:22you know, Egypt. Jerusalem was conquered
24:24a year later. um Egypt like I said 640
24:27641 and then further west um until
24:30[clears throat]
24:31um by so by 7-Eleven all of North Africa
24:35has been conquered and now they're in
24:37Spain the Arabs conquering Spain. Now
24:40it's important to keep in mind because
24:42most people don't get this but when we
24:44talk and this is by design I believe but
24:46when we talk about these regions if I
24:48say Egypt or Syria or whatever Morocco
24:50or Moritania to give it its historical
24:52name people just had this idea that
24:54these areas were kind of always Muslim
24:56or something
24:57>> and those were of course the the
24:58heartlands of Christendom not Europe.
25:01Okay. So if if you looked
25:02[clears throat] at Christianity, the
25:03Christian world and it had you know
25:05spread very far especially after
25:07Constantine uh in the early you know
25:09300s because he was the first Christian
25:11emperor but all of North Africa right so
25:13from Egypt to Morocco all of the Middle
25:15East all of Asia Minor Anatolia what we
25:18call Turkey and then you know Europe of
25:20course um you know the southwest of the
25:22Danuban Rine and that that's
25:25Christianity that's christryendom okay
25:27and in that one century that we're
25:29talking about from 632 Muhammad's
25:31the 732 which is the battle of TS which
25:34is in the middle or by Poier in middle
25:36of France they conquered all that which
25:38if you look at the map is something like
25:40you know depending on how you look at it
25:42two or three quarters of of uh uh 66%
25:46let's say of the original Christian
25:48world and the more important one because
25:50there were five ecclesiastical centers
25:53you know bishops essentially Rome is the
25:55one that everyone remembers which was in
25:57the west and that didn't get conquered
25:58the other four did Right. And that would
26:01be Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, and
26:03Constantinople itself later got
26:06conquered.
26:06>> So I know we're talking about an
26:09ideology, Raymond, that is incredibly
26:11powerful and it's heavily incentivized
26:13people to go and be warlike and also to
26:15be fearless because you know that if you
26:17die, you're going to, you know, you're
26:18going to get all the ladies, should we
26:20just say. So it's, you know, it's a good
26:21deal and personally, if I was around
26:23then, I might well have signed up.
26:24However,
26:26they there must have been something else
26:28to these to to these warriors because to
26:31take on the Romans, to take on all these
26:33ancient civilizations, the Persians,
26:36they must have been incredibly well
26:38drilled as armies and ferocious fighters
26:41and also highly trained.
26:43>> Okay, so yeah, like I said, this is
26:45known as one of the big history big big
26:47mysteries of history, the Arab conquest.
26:49They're not easy to um explain. Um okay
26:53some of the theories there was this
26:55massive desecation of Arabia they claim
26:57where it was really becoming barren and
26:58so this caused a massive migration that
27:00we don't really know about of who who
27:04knows the number of Arabs with their
27:06women and children and camels just
27:07inundating regions. That's one theory.
27:10The other theory which I already
27:11mentioned the mo most prominent one
27:13which is that the Persians and the
27:14Romans were so exhausted from constant
27:16warfare. Uh but you can't really say
27:19that these guys were well militarily
27:21trained. They actually weren't. And when
27:22you and we know their weapons, their
27:24weapons are whatever they could plunder
27:26from their slain victims, you know.
27:27Okay, that mean that was it. Um, so and
27:29they didn't really we don't know of any
27:31kind of Arab uh military, you know,
27:33formations. It was just it was the
27:35Betawin raid where, you know, which
27:37continues in fact with a lot of
27:39historically the Islamic nomadic
27:41peoples, Turks and Mongols and Arabs,
27:43they they were great horsemen, that's
27:45for sure. So I mean they definitely had
27:46that lightning speed. The battle of
27:48Yarmmuk, for example, we know that one
27:50of the reasons that they won is because
27:51they were used to desert fighting and
27:53apparently there was a desert storm
27:55which the Romans couldn't handle and it
27:56blinded them whereas the Arabs were used
27:58to those conditions. Um, but one of the
28:01things that I always found interesting
28:02is there's a relatively obscure but
28:04early um chronicle that it's from Spain
28:08and it's uh in the 8th century. So, it
28:11talks about uh the 700s. It talks, it's
28:13very early and it talks about the Arab
28:15conquest and it makes this kind of
28:17curious remark about how they did not
28:19win through manliness but through
28:22stealth and deception. Okay, which you
28:26know I mean I don't know how to
28:27interpret that. Uh but basically the
28:29idea is they they weren't they they
28:31wouldn't fight head-on in a kind of you
28:33know in a sort of chivalick which didn't
28:35even exist at that point necessarily
28:36kind of way or like blunt force. It was
28:39just hit and run tactics kind of
28:41deception which definitely marks the
28:44later excuse me way of war of like I
28:47said the Turks and the Ottomans and the
28:49Seljixs and these groups. So that's
28:50another you know thing I'm throwing out
28:52there because I I don't hear people talk
28:54about it but it is in in the Chronicles
28:56the the official Christian explanation
28:58was God had done this to punish us for
29:00our sins. He had raised Amalcch to come
29:03and punish us because we deserved it.
29:05>> Now that must
29:06>> for crossdressing purposes. I'm not even
29:08kidding. [laughter] There's an there is
29:10an early document that talks and it says
29:13and it says uh I have it quoted in in my
29:15book Sword and Scimitar. I'm forgetting
29:16right now. Um Pseudo Methodius I think
29:19uh but it says something like he he he
29:22raised them up to punish us and because
29:24and it lists all kinds of numbers of
29:26immoralities and one of them is because
29:28men were dressed like women.
29:30>> There you go. Well, so God is
29:33anti-trans. Grunt's a trans file
29:35[laughter]
29:35anyway. But that must have sent real
29:38shock waves through the Christian world
29:40to see this new religion, these new
29:43armies fight in this new style almost
29:46guerrilla warfare style and just cut
29:48through swaves of Christian heartland.
29:51>> And that's see that's the missing piece
29:53of the puzzle and nobody you know
29:55invariably when we talk about Islam
29:57Muslim Christian hostilities from a
29:58historical point of view
30:00>> it starts with the Crusades. Everyone
30:02starts with the crusades and nobody
30:03seems to understand what was building up
30:05towards the crusade in which included a
30:07lot of fear and terror because um you
30:10know Bernard Lewis has a great quote
30:11which I quote from him and he talks
30:13about how you know by the time it was
30:15you know after these Arab conquests and
30:17now let's say it's the 8th and 9th
30:19century the Europeans were just
30:20traumatized and devastated and a lot of
30:23what we called or used to call it's not
30:25a very uh favorable term anymore but the
30:27dark ages was in large measure because
30:29of these Arab conquests. Okay. And uh
30:32Henry Pin for example, he was a
30:33historian 19th century that was his
30:35thesis which which is that the dark ages
30:38was a byproduct of these Muslim
30:40conquests which took what was once a
30:42Roman Christian lake at the time, right?
30:45Egypt had commerce with Spain and with
30:47Rome and Syria, you know, it was one all
30:50it was christendom
30:51>> and by by you know chopping that in half
30:54and essentially appropriating and
30:55seizing the older, richer, more
30:57sophisticated, more educated region
30:59which was the Middle East and the near
31:01east that's one of the main reasons that
31:03Europe entered into this perilous dark
31:05age and Henry Pin also you know he I
31:07think the title of his book or the his
31:09argument is or his famous line is that
31:11without Muhammad there's no Charlemagne.
31:13Okay. So the one necessarily led to the
31:15rise of the other and that entire system
31:18and you know so most people don't know
31:20what built up and what was coming you
31:22know in the centuries before the first
31:24crusade. They just assume there's these
31:25you know these powerful land grabbing
31:27hungry greedy knights want to go and
31:28just I I've I've quoted this quote and
31:31I'm going to quote it for you guys so
31:32many times I think I've memorized it but
31:34it just it shows you the rot of academia
31:37and uh it really underscores what I'm
31:38trying to tell you and it's by John
31:39Espazito.
31:41This is a professor at Georgetown
31:43University. I don't know if he's still
31:44there. He's probably very old uh right
31:46now, but he was there when I was there.
31:48I I went to Georgetown University for a
31:50time in Washington DC and um and it it's
31:53a bastion of kind of Islamic studies and
31:55whatnot, but I didn't know this at the
31:56time, but it it was a very kind of
31:58compromised bastion.
32:00>> Anyway, one of his books, which is uh
32:02it's it's called Islam, the straight
32:03path. And keep in mind, this guy, he was
32:06[clears throat] this is in the early
32:072000s, let's say. He was very very
32:09active and his book came out and he's
32:11the editor of the Oxford um history of
32:14Islam for example. He was the guy that
32:16the you know the the FBI and the CIA
32:18intelligence analyst they talked to him
32:20to understand about Islam and whatever.
32:22He has this line in his book Islam the
32:24straight path which verbatim I might be
32:26getting a little off but he says five
32:27centuries of peaceful coexistence
32:29elapsed between Christians and Muslims
32:32before an imperial papal power play led
32:34to a series of so-called holy wars that
32:37have left an enduring legacy of mistrust
32:40from Muslims to Christians. So what he's
32:43saying is before the first crusade which
32:45starts in 1095 everything before that
32:48from moment from Muhammad's life until
32:50all the stuff I'm telling you was
32:52peaceful coexistence.
32:54Okay that that's the official narrative.
32:56So that's why I think it's very
32:57important to really highlight what you
33:00just mentioned which is this really this
33:02was a traumatizing event the sundering
33:05you know the first breakup of
33:06Christendom with most of it being
33:08conquered by this hostile faith and the
33:11rest of it being bombarded in the 8th
33:13century all these islands were con the
33:14Mediterranean islands were constantly
33:16being attacked and conquered slave raids
33:19were constantly a given thing the whole
33:22idea so much of what we know as
33:23feudalism and had to do with all these
33:26the coasts of the southern coast of
33:28Europe. So many people actually
33:29abandoned them because they were the
33:31site of raids, slave raids, coming from
33:33the Islamic world, now North Africa. And
33:35they would habitually go and enslave
33:37Europeans and take them back. And and
33:39the emporium for white flesh was Cordoba
33:43in Spain, which was conquered, like I
33:44said, uh starting in 7-Eleven. And
33:46that's where they would that was where
33:48they would sell white flesh, which
33:50always, you know, fetched a high price
33:52amongst the Muslims. So before we move
33:55on to the crusades, I just wanted to
33:57concentrate on the Islamic Golden Age.
34:00Was that around the time that we know as
34:02the Islamic Golden Age?
34:04>> Yeah. So the Islamic Golden Age,
34:06[clears throat] well there's kind of two
34:08and the one is the Abbassids in Baghdad.
34:11And this is the the Abbassid um empire
34:13starts after the Umiads. And the Umiads
34:16are like so around 750. Usually the
34:18Abbassad golden age would be sometime
34:20after 800.
34:22>> Okay. And this is Haron al- Rashid who's
34:25now allied with or f on friendly terms
34:27with Charlemagne. But there's also a
34:30supposed golden age in Spain, Umiad,
34:33Spain uh in Cordoba. And what what needs
34:37to be understood about the golden age is
34:38this um the let me try to start off by
34:42giving you an analogy, right? I I forget
34:45which country which Arab country or you
34:47know in the Gulf which is the one that
34:48has those skyscrapers that everyone
34:50>> Dubai Dubai UAE Yeah. Okay,
34:53>> imagine you know many many let's say
34:56decades or centuries from now those
34:57buildings are still standing there and
35:00you know the whole everything's changed
35:01and you know Islam maybe is gone or
35:03whatever and um people look at it and go
35:06wow that was a golden age that country
35:09that civilization because look what it
35:11led to
35:12>> now we would say well no I mean they had
35:14their Islam sure but this is actually
35:16money and westerners built it western
35:19technology western workers and it just
35:21so happened that these Arabs had the
35:23money to spend on it. That I submit to
35:25you is the best way to understand the
35:26golden age that happened historically.
35:28It didn't happen due to anything to do
35:30with Islam. Quite the contrary, it
35:32happened despite Islam. Okay? And it was
35:34basically so let's uh if we go to the
35:36Abbassad, as I was telling you, which is
35:38the primary golden age, um this is now
35:41okay. So now the Abbassad Empire is more
35:43Persianized and it's it's in it's in
35:45Baghdad. Okay. And it's it's heavily
35:48Persianized
35:50and um at the time a lot of the people
35:53keep in mind when these Arab Muslim
35:55conquests happen most of so let's say
35:58Egypt and Syria which were highly
35:59Christian let's say in the 8th century
36:029th century 10th century they're still
36:03majority Christian
36:05>> and there's Jews also as well especially
36:07in Alexandria and various cities and you
36:10have a lot of Zorastrians in Persia okay
36:12you have all these different groups who
36:14are living underneath now Islam Islamic
36:16rule. They're the ones who are doing all
36:18the stuff that we call the golden age.
36:20Okay? It's Christians, it's Jews, and
36:23and especially it's Persians in in in
36:26the Abbassad era. And it's not because
36:28of anything special about Islam. I mean,
36:30they are literally not Muslims and and a
36:32few of them who are are literally like
36:34they just converted. They're first
36:36generation converts, which means they're
36:38still primarily whatever their former
36:40religion was. So the best that you can
36:43say is that the Muslims uh you know uh
36:46sponsored it maybe paid for it. Okay.
36:48But it there was nothing intrinsic to
36:51Islam and once Islam started to harden
36:53because even at this time the Abbassad
36:55caliphate in the golden age there's
36:57still debates uh between the various
36:59schools of Islamic law and there's some
37:01that were actually considered liberal
37:03you know to if we can use that term. Um
37:06but by I forget the exact time something
37:08like in the 10th century what's known as
37:10uh the doors of Ishtahed Ishtad was a
37:13way for the liberals to get around
37:15draconian Islam and the saying is the
37:18doors were closed and basically the
37:20hardliners won the Islamic debate and
37:23now if anything all that stuff started
37:25dwindling away okay so it was never
37:28because of Islam but there was a time
37:30where Islam in its early national period
37:32was you can say liberal enough to allow
37:34this sort of thing to happened. But the
37:36people who were doing the achievements
37:38were actually not Muslims. And if they
37:40were, they were like literally just
37:41converted to join the winning crowd like
37:43a lot of people did over the years. And
37:45their mind and the way they thought and
37:47their heritage was still non-Muslim. So
37:50that's why I give you that analogy, you
37:52know, of yeah, Saudi Arabia and these
37:55places, if you look at their worldview,
37:57their culture, which is based on Islam,
37:59well, yeah, it's draconian Sharia law,
38:02living in a desert, polygamy, etc.,
38:04etc., But they have wealth and look at
38:06what they can have and they can build
38:08skyscrapers. They can have the greatest
38:09stuff that Westerners can't have. That
38:12doesn't mean it's actually part and
38:13parcel of Islam.
38:15>> So that's uh the best way I think to
38:17understand it.
38:18>> The holidays are supposed to be
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39:32>> And uh you mentioned that after the
39:36rapid expansion, you might even say
39:38explosion of Islam across what was prior
39:40to that the Christian world, there were
39:42nonetheless lots of Christians uh and
39:45Jews living there and also of course in
39:47the Persian side, Zorastrians, which was
39:48the religion of Persia until the Islamic
39:52conquest. Um, what was life like for
39:57non-Muslims under Muslim rule?
40:00>> Well, so we Okay, let's first start off
40:02with what Islam teaches because Islam is
40:04very specific about life for
40:06non-Muslims.
40:08If you're going to be a a [laughter] if
40:11you're going to be a non-Muslim, so
40:13again, like I said earlier,
40:14theoretically, according to Islamic law,
40:16you have to be a person of the book to
40:18be granted any measure of tolerance. All
40:20right.
40:20>> Monotheistic. You have to believe
40:22there's one God. Yeah. Yeah. And well,
40:25but
40:25>> or what do they mean specifically
40:27Christians and Jews?
40:28>> No. Well, that's that's the question.
40:30The term is which means literally the
40:32people of scriptures or the book and the
40:35idea it was more or less the Jews and
40:37the Christians. But then later on it
40:39sort of became um it was extended to
40:42people who weren't Jews and Christians
40:44and that was because they got tired of
40:46the blood bath. So for example when for
40:49five c for five centuries I want to say
40:51between let's say the year th00and to
40:531500 Muslims according to well doumented
40:56historians uh historical sources and I'm
40:59the historian I'm thinking of uh I know
41:02his name but uh he's an ind Indian
41:04historian and anyway he says that in
41:07that five centuries um 80 million Musl
41:09Hindus were slaughtered because they
41:12weren't granted the option of becoming
41:15them which Christians and Jews could you
41:17could keep your religion. You just have
41:18to pay extra tribute and you of course
41:21have to be a secondass citizen which was
41:23not in any way, shape or form.
41:24>> Let's dig into that. So you have to pay
41:26jazia.
41:26>> Yeah.
41:27>> Uh don't know if I'm pronouncing that
41:29correctly.
41:29>> No. Yeah. Jiza.
41:30>> Jiza. You I thought you laughed in my
41:32face for the pronunciation. Um
41:34>> no, it's just a funny word.
41:36>> Uh so you have to pay Jizia and you uh
41:39you are allow allowed and not allowed
41:42certain things, right? So talk to us
41:44about what that looks like. Okay. So, it
41:46goes back uh according to Islamic
41:48teaching, remember the khalif Omar?
41:50>> Yeah.
41:50>> The second khalif. So, um apparently
41:52when he historians aren't sure where,
41:55but the Islamic tradition believes it's
41:56when Jerusalem was conquered in 637 and
42:00he came there. There's this big, you
42:01know, narrative about how he came there
42:03and whatnot, but supposedly he made a
42:05pact. It's called in Arabic the Omar or
42:08the this the pact of Omar with the
42:10Christians. And they basically told
42:13them, "Here's what you have to do in
42:14order for us to not kill you."
42:17Basically, and according to this pact,
42:19things that they could not do, they
42:20can't build churches. They can't repair
42:22churches. They can't sing out loud. They
42:25can't show a crucifix or a Bible around
42:28Muslims. They certainly can't try to
42:29proitize. They can't stand in the way of
42:32their own relatives being uh turning
42:34Muslim. Okay? And it's a it's a number
42:37of lists. I actually translated in one
42:39of my books. It's and I it's called the
42:40conditions or stipulations of Omar. Some
42:42of them are if a Muslim wants your seat
42:44get up and give it to them. If a Muslim
42:46is traveling and wants to enter your
42:47house, you have to let him live there.
42:48Okay? So it's not stuff that you
42:50necessarily want to enjoy. But what it
42:52really coalesed around is and it's still
42:54evident till today. Okay? is, you know,
42:57you're just, you know, it's it's I I
43:00guess to give you a good analogy is kind
43:01of think of uh, you know, how blacks
43:04were treated in America and, you know,
43:06before civil civil rights and uh and
43:09that which is like kind of like who do
43:10you think you are? Okay, you know, to
43:12even think you're my equal. That kind of
43:15mentality is what prevailed in these
43:17Islamic societies. If you're a Christian
43:18or a Jew, you better know your place and
43:21don't complain and don't if someone if
43:22if they abuse you or if a Muslims rise
43:24up and and commit an injustice against
43:27you, the law is not going to come on
43:28your side. That continues till this very
43:30day in even even in you know the things
43:33about like building churches that's
43:35still very evident in places like Egypt
43:37you know where they it's so hard for
43:38them to get you know it used to be
43:40actually you need a presidential decree
43:42to build a church in Egypt. Okay. and uh
43:44now it's supposedly become lenient but a
43:46lot of that people say it's just for
43:47show for western consumption um but in
43:50Egypt constantly just this weekend I I
43:52covered a story which has happened
43:55countless times including going
43:57centuries back which is basically some
43:59sort of romantic leazison grew between a
44:02Christian man in Egypt and a Muslim
44:03woman and so the Muslims after Friday
44:06prayers rose up completely devastated
44:09the Christian village or where the
44:11Christians were living burned homes
44:13attacked through rocks, rioting,
44:15screaming Allah Akbar. And why? Well,
44:17actually because according to Islamic
44:19law, um a Muslim man can marry a
44:22Christian or a Jew or person of the
44:24book, like I said, but he has to hate
44:26her.
44:26>> But uh a a non-Muslim cannot marry um a
44:29Muslim woman. And the obvious reason in
44:32the Islamic mentality is the man's in
44:34charge. So we cannot have an infidel in
44:36charge of a Muslim. Okay? But it's okay
44:38if the man's a Muslim and the infidel
44:40it's already a secondass, so it's a
44:42woman. you know that's the mentality. Um
44:44so that's why they got angry. But this
44:46story has happened countless times in
44:48Egypt where they get up and they engage
44:50in collective punishment which the the
44:52conditions of Omar which I was
44:53describing to you actually um it says if
44:56one of you does this then the pact is
44:58broken for all of you. So it actually
45:00does promote collective punishment of
45:02the dimm as they're known. And this like
45:04I said it just happened this week. It
45:06happened maybe two weeks before that
45:07because there was a rumor of a church
45:09being built also in Egypt. And it goes
45:11way way back. So my point is that it's
45:14it's it's actually a written codified
45:16thing and it's become absorbed in
45:19Islamic law and Islamic Sharia, but it's
45:21also just part of the society because
45:23it's it's a supremacist idea. Okay, I'm
45:25better than you. You're the dirty keer.
45:27You're the infidel. You're the
45:28Christian. You're the Jew. Whatever. So
45:31how dare you want equal rights with me?
45:33That's the overarching principle. And it
45:36continues to manifest itself with
45:37extreme regularity. And your thesis
45:40essentially is, if I'm understanding you
45:42correctly, is you have this rapid
45:44expansion of the Islamic world from
45:46nothing into taking over most of the
45:49Christian world, including its Kiaras.
45:51That would be equivalent of like most of
45:53Europe and half of the United States
45:55being conquered by Hindus, right?
45:58>> Uh over what 100 years, something like
46:00that?
46:01>> Uh yeah. Yeah. I mean the let's say the
46:04I mean in the first 10 years a huge
46:06chunk you know Egypt and Syria were
46:09taken and uh which is by Syria I mean
46:11the Middle East
46:12>> and Egypt and most of what we would call
46:13Libya though there wasn't much there
46:15anyway. Um and then you know Tunisia I
46:18mean think about Augustine St. Augustine
46:20who's known as the father of sort of the
46:22western theology. Well he was from North
46:24Africa from Hippo which I believe is in
46:26or in Tunisia that too was conquered
46:29very early maybe by like 650s. So
46:31continuing my metaphor, let's say for
46:34just for the avoidance of any uh
46:36triggering too far. Um the Hindus have
46:40taken over most of Europe and half of
46:41the United States and North America.
46:44And you're what you're saying is that
46:47plus the way that the the pre-existing
46:50population were being treated by their
46:53conquerors is what gives rise to the
46:55crusades.
46:57>> Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean what I what it
46:59depends on the the time we're talking. I
47:02still haven't gotten to what really gave
47:03it rise which is similar. It was more of
47:06the same.
47:07>> Okay. So, in other words, what I'm
47:08talking about is, you know, the seventh,
47:108th, 9th centuries, and that's what's
47:12going on. And, you know, Europe knows
47:14about it. Europe is also bombarded,
47:16especially from Spain because that's now
47:19the the latest they're in the continent,
47:21right? They're in Europe. Um, but right
47:23before the first crusade, there was a
47:24new sort of outburst, Islamic outburst.
47:27And now the Turks come onto the scene.
47:29[clears throat]
47:30They start coming in really in the 9th
47:32century um as slaves, slave soldiers,
47:35and they're very good warriors. So the
47:37caliphates start bringing these Turks uh
47:40from Central Asia as slaves and they
47:42Islamize them and they just train them
47:44to be great warriors, jihadists. And
47:46before long, they essentially take over.
47:48And uh so this is the Abbassad
47:50caliphate, the golden age caliphate. And
47:52before long, you know, you have these
47:54the Turks, especially with the Seljic
47:56Empire. This is now we're coming right
47:58before the first crusade. Um they
48:00essenti they keep the Abbassad khif as a
48:03puppet, right? But now they're the real
48:05power and um they're [clears throat] the
48:06sultan. In fact, the word sultan means
48:08power holder.
48:09>> So now uh so let's say okay the first
48:12crusade is 1095. The Turks really start
48:14spreading and causing havoc around 1037
48:17and it's especially against the
48:18Armenians. You know, you talk about the
48:20Armenian genocide. It actually goes back
48:22a millennium before what we think. you
48:24know, it's it's not uh it's not in in
48:26the year just 1900, early 1900s or late
48:291800s. It actually goes back to the year
48:311000. And if you read the sources, and I
48:33have in mind, especially Matthew Vessa,
48:36who's a [clears throat] near
48:37contemporary,
48:38the what the Turks were doing to the
48:40Armenians and of course other Christians
48:42as they went further west into Asia
48:45Minor is just mindboggling. I mean, it
48:47talks about tens of thousands of
48:49Armenians just being massacred,
48:51thousands of churches being set on fire.
48:53the capital at the time ani was known as
48:55the as the city of a thousand1 churches
48:57all of which were just completely
48:59devastated and torched and you know it's
49:01also interesting to note and a lot of
49:03historians don't do this they make you
49:04think okay these seljixs were nominal
49:06Muslims uh you know yeah they're called
49:08Muslims but they were just you know
49:10fighters who were conquering whoever but
49:12in the sources you see the religious
49:14hostility okay where they like to go and
49:16desecrate break crosses and decapitate
49:19statues and gouge the eyes of icons and
49:21you know of course and uh desecrate
49:24tabern or the ar the altars. Um so that
49:28also comes out and um this is now going
49:31on and until the year 1071. Now in 1071
49:34you have the pivotal battle of manzakert
49:37which is in that area. It's actually
49:39it's again in Asia Minor sort of near
49:41Lake Vaugh I think again by the Armenian
49:43areas and the Eastern Roman Emperor the
49:46Byzantine [clears throat] emperor
49:48marches one of their largest um armies
49:50to stop these Turks and they lose and
49:53it's one of the worst and the emperor
49:55gets captured the first one in like a
49:57thousand years I think and um so
49:59[clears throat] now after that they
50:01start just spreading further west and
50:03cover all of Asia Minor Turkey till
50:05they're not far from Constantinople now
50:08at At the same time these same Turks are
50:12from the moment the holy land was
50:14conquered it was very early on a lot of
50:16these khifs including the ambassad like
50:18I told you who was who was sort of
50:19diplomatic relations with Charlemagne
50:22they allowed Christ pilgrimage was very
50:23important to Christians okay especially
50:26after Constantine um you know really
50:28rebuilt Jerusalem built the church of
50:30the holy supplr around where Christ was
50:32buried and crucified and resurrected was
50:34a huge complex so pilgrimages were a
50:37major And a lot of Muslims allowed
50:39Christians to come especially during the
50:41Abbassad period. You have to pay of
50:43course and you know put up with all
50:44sorts of things. But they would come.
50:46But now the these Turks they really went
50:49they ran havoc and um they started
50:52attacking pilgrims. They started
50:54charging them even more money and then
50:56not letting them go. And one of the
50:57worst [clears throat]
50:59one of the worst anecdotes that was
51:00pretty famous that happened in 1064 was
51:03a large German pilgrimage
51:05[clears throat] went uh to went to the
51:07Holy Land and among them it is described
51:10it's it's an early source they describe
51:12a very beautiful Abbis head nun who was
51:15told don't do it because everyone knew
51:16it was dangerous to go on pilgrimage and
51:19but she wouldn't relent and she went and
51:20they say you know all all the all of
51:22them were killed by the Turks and she
51:24was gang raped until she died and then
51:27it says in the end and the Turks
51:28[clears throat] did this very frequently
51:29to pilgrims and of course they were
51:32desecrating the Christian holy sites
51:34including the holy supplr And actually
51:36before that before the Turks just just
51:38so you don't think it's just the Turks
51:40but a Fatimid Khalif from Egypt Hakimah
51:44in the year 109 actually destroyed the
51:47holy supplr raised it to the ground and
51:50according to Muslim sources and I'm
51:52thinking of um El Maki who was an
51:54Egyptian historian he wrote that that
51:57this guy this Fatimid Khalif destroyed
51:5930,000 churches um and synagogues in
52:03Egypt and greater Syria which makes
52:05sense. because like I told you that was
52:07a very Christian heavily Christianized
52:09region, one of the oldest. Okay. So, and
52:12at that time in 109 the pope of the time
52:14wanted to call a kind of of a a proto
52:17crusade. They didn't have it at the
52:18time. Um and nothing happened. But then
52:21as like I said, so now it's building up
52:23and you're getting these Turks doing
52:24what they're doing and they're killing
52:25European pilgrims and and now the
52:27emperor of uh you know, Constantinople,
52:30they're right there at his doorstep, you
52:32know, there in Asia Minor, right across
52:34the streets from Constantinople. So he
52:36calls for aid and that was the origin of
52:39the first crusade.
52:40>> And what was the stated objective of the
52:42first crusade? What did they actually
52:43want? For the pilgrims to be able to go
52:45unmolested or to recapture the the land
52:48or what was the plan? Well, the ultimate
52:50goal of course was to have pilgrims to
52:51be able to go to the Holy Land
52:53unmolested. That was, you know, the
52:54number one. But it was obvious that's
52:56not going to happen. It hadn't really
52:57happened even before the Turks. Like I
52:59told you, there was a lot of
53:00exploitation and abuse. But now they
53:01were just running, you know, a mock and
53:04killing anyone and everyone and abusing
53:05them. So, it was basically time to
53:07retake the Holy Land, which used to be
53:09Christian before the Muslims took it.
53:11And um because you couldn't rely on the
53:13Muslims anymore. So it was time to
53:15retake and rededicate and you know
53:17cleanse the holy land from these people.
53:20That was number one. But also the number
53:23one the second one which is not really
53:25remembered much or talked about is was
53:27to help fellow Christians the eastern
53:29church. The the call from you know
53:31according to some historians that was
53:32the chief catalyst. Um one historian
53:36recently wrote a book Franco Pan I think
53:37is his name and that's the whole thesis
53:39which is this was really orchestrated
53:41and ultimately because of Alexius the
53:43emperor who needed because because of
53:45what was happening to him and so one of
53:47the verses even that biblical verses a
53:49lot of Christians and you see it was
53:51basically you know where Jesus says love
53:53God with all your heart and love your
53:54fellow man. So loving God was going
53:57because holy places mattered then and it
54:00was going to liberate his holy the holy
54:02land and loving your fellow man was
54:04helping these eastern Christians and
54:05pilgrims who wanted um you know to go
54:08and not be molested. So that and it it
54:12you know it's just sad because a lot of
54:13people and historians will argue you
54:16know give you these cynical motives uh
54:18you know oh this is second sons this was
54:21an old thesis that I think goes to you
54:22know runsman
54:24um Steven runsman where basically oh a
54:28lot of these were just second sons who
54:29just had no inheritance so they just
54:31wanted to go and it was it was a
54:32colonizing mission that had no rhyme or
54:34reason well if you look at the sources
54:36that's all they talk about is what's
54:37happening to Christians how they're
54:39being slaughtered
54:40how the holy land is being defiled and
54:42polluted and how we have to do something
54:44about it. So that I mean that is
54:45unequivocally clear from a objective
54:48reading of the sources.
54:50>> There's something powerful about going
54:51back to first principles, especially
54:53when it comes to thinking about politics
54:55and liberty. The Federalist Papers do
54:57just that. They lay out the original
55:00arguments behind the US Constitution
55:02written by people who had just won a
55:04revolution and were trying to build
55:06something better. Hillsdale College's
55:08new online course, The Federalist, takes
55:10you inside these essays. You'll learn
55:12how Hamilton, Madison, and Jay thought
55:15about government, human nature, and
55:17freedom, and why their ideas still
55:19matter today. Watch it all now for free
55:21at hillsdale.edu/trigger.
55:24It's not a dry history lesson. It's a
55:27window into the foundations of real
55:29democracy. How to design a system that
55:31guards liberty without collapsing into
55:34chaos. It's thoughtful, clear, and
55:36entirely free. If you care about
55:38political philosophy, good government,
55:40or just want to understand how power is
55:42supposed to work, go to
55:44hillsdale.edu/trigger.
55:46That's hillsdale.edu/trigger
55:49and enroll for free. And we we had
55:53another historian, Dan Jones, on the
55:54show to talk about the Crusades. It
55:56didn't sound like um the way he told it,
55:57at least like a particularly successful
55:59or happy story, really.
56:01>> Yeah. The really the only one that was
56:02successful was the first one. it did
56:04achieve its mission. It liberated you
56:06know Jerusalem and you and not just
56:09Jerusalem but various they had various
56:11counties um and the first one being
56:13Adessa and principalities. So they you
56:16know they carved a whole niche that
56:18became part of Christendom and pilgrims
56:20were allowed to come and whatnot. But
56:22then after that yeah I mean every other
56:24crusade the second was a complete
56:26disaster. The third had made minimal
56:29gains with King Richard. Um, but it it
56:31didn't it didn't rein Jerusalem, but it
56:35made good gains because right before it
56:37right before the third crusade, it
56:39looked like Saladin was going to
56:40completely eject the crusaders once and
56:41for all. That was his goal. But with the
56:44with the third, that's the second most
56:46successful uh King Richard actually gave
56:48kind of a breathing space back to the
56:50Christians and reunions.
56:53Um, and then, you know, the fourth
56:55crusade is neither here nor there. that
56:57just went spun off course completely.
56:59>> Well, they sacked Constantinople.
57:01>> That's the one where they sacked
57:02Constantinople and I mean that's the big
57:04aha moment that everyone loves to like
57:07harp on, you know, the fourth crusade
57:09and it's just uh I don't find it as
57:11remarkable as most people think. Um if
57:13you really look at it, uh it started off
57:15as a normal crusade and you had all
57:17these crus various crusaders I think
57:19from France wanted um you know
57:22commission Venice to build a lot of
57:23ships for them. But when the time came,
57:26only one-third of the crusaders actually
57:28showed up. The rest came to the Holy
57:30Land. I think they were going to Egypt
57:32again. That was the target. But they
57:33went through different routes and they
57:35couldn't pay. And the, you know, the
57:36Venetians just insisted. So the
57:38Venetians kind of said, "All right, you
57:40know, we'll forgive the debt, but come
57:41help us conquer these guys,
57:43>> um, fellow Christians who were creating
57:45problems for Venice." Um the long story
57:48short though is the pope was completely
57:49against all this you know and if you're
57:51if you're going to judge an institution
57:52you have to look at its head not the
57:54individuals who go off you know go off
57:56on their own thing and a lot of the
57:58Christians even from when they made this
58:00pact left so it was a small core that
58:03went and sacked this I think it's Zora
58:06um on behalf of Venice and then long
58:09story short you know they still were
58:11trying to go and they ended up you know
58:13making an alliance with some ousted
58:15Byzantine prince
58:17and uh you know and they helped him and
58:19this goes on for two years but then they
58:21don't get what he said they should get
58:23um the reward or whatever and finally
58:25they just ran a muck and conquered it
58:28and they all got excommunicated. Pope
58:30Innocent III was just completely
58:33disgusted with the whole affair. So my
58:35point is, you know, of course things go
58:38off the rail, but officially the
58:40representatives of the crusading venture
58:42were completely against it, you know, so
58:44these individuals did what they did. Um,
58:46but anyway, I uh and then the fifth
58:48crusade comes and that goes again to
58:51Egypt and that almost won. They almost
58:53were victorious because before long they
58:56realized you can't you can't hold
58:57Jerusalem without conquering Egypt.
58:59>> And so a lot of them that's it became
59:01the focal point. Um but that also failed
59:05and uh there the sixth crusade isn't
59:08really a crusade. It's uh you know the
59:09emperor Frederick uh I forget which
59:12number but he actually reclaims
59:14Jerusalem and without war and he's hated
59:18um because the way he did it is seen
59:20very cynical and he in fact is kind of a
59:21cynical guy. He's a very interesting
59:22character. I talk about him um in that
59:25book actually. But um he kind of you
59:27know he just mocks Christians and Jews
59:28and Muslims and thinks are all you know
59:30but he'll give lip service to whoever.
59:33Anyway, it was seen as a cynical deal
59:34that was not good or advantageous. And
59:36before long it all does unravel again
59:39and and one of the worst attacks comes
59:41soon after which prompts the seventh
59:43crusade in 1244.
59:46the attack by this kind of m Muslim
59:49Egyptian Tatar or or they're they're
59:52both Muslims with some savage group the
59:54quariz who come from the east and they
59:57engage in some of the most obscene
59:59atrocities against the Christians of the
1:00:01holy land who are already quickly
1:00:03dwindling and then you get the seventh
1:00:04crusade king Louie St. Louisie another
1:00:07abysmal failure you know um but the guy
1:00:10meant very well that's why he became
1:00:12sainted and then the eighth crusade is
1:00:14him again and then he finally dies and
1:00:16that fails and then you have the ninth
1:00:18crusade which is very very uh small
1:00:20scale and it's prince Edward who becomes
1:00:22king Edward long shanks um and not
1:00:26>> he's the bad guy in uh
1:00:27>> right in Braveheart
1:00:28>> in Braveheart right
1:00:29>> who's actually kind of he seems like a
1:00:30good guy though when you read um the
1:00:32actual sources but um and the long
1:00:34shanks apparently was very all. So
1:00:36anyway, yeah, the ultimately the
1:00:38Crusades were a failed venture, but when
1:00:41you really look at, you know, the wise
1:00:43it if if anything, they're actually more
1:00:45impressive because of how long they they
1:00:49managed to last against the odds that
1:00:51they were in. Remember, this is a small
1:00:53group of European Christians traveling
1:00:56to the heart of the lion's den and
1:00:58trying to hold on to it. You know, the
1:01:01differences between the Crusades and the
1:01:02Islamic conquests is the Islamic
1:01:04conquests were basically we're going to
1:01:06conquer anyone who's an infidel. And so
1:01:08that what that meant is my immediate
1:01:10neighbor, which also meant I got all the
1:01:13I got all the resources. I'm I'm not
1:01:15deep into enemy territory. Behind me are
1:01:17all my my whole world. Right.
1:01:19>> Right.
1:01:19>> I have an endless supply. So I I'm here
1:01:22and I conquer here and then I
1:01:23consolidate. Then I go here and I
1:01:24conquer. And that's exactly what they
1:01:26did. But the crusaders for ideological
1:01:29Christian purposes went all the way into
1:01:31the heart of it and became a tiny group
1:01:35that was continuously dwindling. Okay,
1:01:37this is what gave rise to the military
1:01:39orders who really became the heart of
1:01:40it. These guys who were just so utterly
1:01:42committed but and especially as Europe
1:01:44became more and more secularized, the
1:01:46numbers became ridiculous. So habitually
1:01:49in these battles, you would get a guy
1:01:51like Saladin or Babbars. They would show
1:01:53up with just ridiculous amounts of
1:01:54numbers, which makes sense cuz this is
1:01:56their homeland. They can raise any
1:01:58number of armies. And the crusaders are
1:02:00always limited to a few hundred,000
1:02:02guys. So if anything, it's actually
1:02:04remarkable that they were able to hold
1:02:05out that long.
1:02:06>> So we've been focusing a lot on the
1:02:09Christian and Muslims. So where were the
1:02:13Jews in this? because obviously they
1:02:15were in the holy land and I mean we can
1:02:19see what happened to Jewish people
1:02:21particularly with Israel and so on and
1:02:23so forth but what role did they play in
1:02:25all of this? Were they seen as part of
1:02:26it or were they just marginalized and
1:02:29very much a second second secondary
1:02:31player?
1:02:32>> Um well I mean it depends on which era
1:02:34and which country and which region.
1:02:36So you know the Jews are especially
1:02:38prominent in Spain. That's often where
1:02:40you hear about them because you had
1:02:42large, you know, of course, Muslim
1:02:43control in the south and then you had
1:02:46the small Christians in the north who
1:02:47began the reconista from the north and
1:02:49spread downwards and then you had the
1:02:51Jews mostly in the south where also
1:02:53other Christians as dimmies lived. Um,
1:02:56and it really depends. Often times they
1:02:58were actually seen as working and siding
1:03:00with the Muslims. And in fact, so for
1:03:02example, when it came to, you know, the
1:03:04famous um expelling of Muslims, it was
1:03:07it was Muslims and Jews who were
1:03:08expelled in 1492 out of Spain. And it
1:03:11was kind of for the same reason because
1:03:13they were and this is another very
1:03:15complex topic, but you know when when so
1:03:19we have to I guess we should talk about
1:03:21Spain because it's really a microcosm of
1:03:23everything we're talking about.
1:03:23>> Absolutely.
1:03:24>> And it and a lot of things are very
1:03:26clear when you look there. But so as I
1:03:28said is Spain gets conquered in the year
1:03:317-Eleven and before that it's Christian.
1:03:33Okay, it was ruled by the Visigoths. Um
1:03:36and anyway,
1:03:38a small remnant survives of these viths
1:03:41and they get holed up in the north in
1:03:42some in the mountains of Atoria in the
1:03:44northwest. And even the Muslim sources
1:03:46kind of say what are they going to do?
1:03:48Who cares? Let them live in like live up
1:03:50in that crag. They like a bunch of bums.
1:03:53They're like they it's literally calls
1:03:54them like 12 people living on honey.
1:03:56Anyway, um before long they persevere
1:03:59the Christians and they start what's
1:04:00called the reconista slowly kind of
1:04:02coming southwards and fighting. But
1:04:04before that the Muslims in Elandaloo as
1:04:07it's known okay Spain and that name by
1:04:10the way is uh you know the Vandals like
1:04:12the Visigoths. The the Vandals were
1:04:14another kind of Germanic tribe but they
1:04:16entered into North Africa so they were
1:04:18familiar to Muslims and so when they
1:04:20came to Spain you know Visigoth Vandal
1:04:22same thing but they just knew the word
1:04:23Vandal. So van lend and dulus became the
1:04:26name. That's why it's called that. Um so
1:04:29Muslim controlled Spain you had what we
1:04:32were discussing which is this dimmi
1:04:34system. If you're a Christian or a Jew
1:04:36you live uh secondass right and they
1:04:38lived in their own communities at this
1:04:40time. Um they didn't really consort with
1:04:42each other uh to a large extent. And
1:04:45then up in the north you got the free
1:04:46Christians who are making a comeback.
1:04:49Okay. And um so
1:04:52uh that's the context and this goes on
1:04:54literally for centuries until uh you
1:04:57know Spain this it was known as the
1:04:59Spain because it was really just various
1:05:01kingdoms Aragon, Castile, Leon, Portugal
1:05:04became its own. Um but when it gets
1:05:07unified with Ferdinand and Isabella
1:05:09right in the 1400s um they finally
1:05:12managed to get the last Islamic
1:05:14stronghold which is
1:05:15>> Granada
1:05:16>> and it's had like half a million Muslims
1:05:19and uh what happened is they let them
1:05:22live. They said okay fine you guys can
1:05:24stay here. You can even have your own
1:05:25Islamic culture and your own law and
1:05:27whatever and what and but what happened
1:05:29is the Muslims were always seeking to
1:05:32subvert. So on the one hand they acted
1:05:34like they were friends. or or being
1:05:36docile.
1:05:38>> On the other hand, they were conniving
1:05:40with the Ottomans and the Barbrey
1:05:41Muslims to help try to bring Spain back
1:05:44to Islamic rule.
1:05:45>> And so in this context, this is when uh
1:05:48this is why so for example, you know,
1:05:50you hear these crazy things and it the
1:05:52the medieval Christians just look so
1:05:54intolerant and just evil. But here's the
1:05:56backdrop. So you hear how the Christians
1:05:59said, "Oh, you have to become Christian
1:06:00or get out." Mhm.
1:06:01>> Well, that was because before that they
1:06:04gave them the right to do their thing.
1:06:06So, the idea of Christianizing someone
1:06:08was not because I'm a fanatic and I
1:06:10don't believe in you having your own
1:06:11faith. It was that you're never going to
1:06:14stop trying to kill me until you become
1:06:15like me.
1:06:16>> As long as you maintain that tribalistic
1:06:18Islam, which they understood, you're
1:06:20going to be you're gonna obviously work
1:06:23against me. So, they came up with a
1:06:25decree, which is basically become
1:06:26Christian or leave, go back to North
1:06:28Africa. And then a fatwa appeared. Fatwa
1:06:32is a decree by you know learned Islamic
1:06:34sheh which promoted the concept of tea.
1:06:37And tea in Islam is basically uh you can
1:06:40if you're under duress or being
1:06:42threatened by the infidel you can lie
1:06:43you can say cheat you can say anything
1:06:45you can even engage you can get baptized
1:06:48you can engage in communion you can do
1:06:50all these things as long as in your
1:06:51heart you're still working you're still
1:06:53striving for Islam. Um and then all so
1:06:56overnight like half a million Muslims
1:06:57from Granada became Christian and the
1:07:00the the crowd thought okay you know and
1:07:03but then what happened is generation
1:07:04after generation and you have the
1:07:06Christians saying these guys were acting
1:07:08like they were better Christians than
1:07:09us. They literally just everything about
1:07:11them was more Christian than they went
1:07:13every Sunday but then they found out
1:07:15they were still Muslim at heart and
1:07:17still actually um clandestinely working
1:07:19to somehow subvert Spain to Islamic
1:07:22rule. And so that's when it finally came
1:07:24to okay even if you convert it doesn't
1:07:26work so you have to leave.
1:07:27>> Okay. Now the Jews are also and so the
1:07:30inquisition that's that the the initial
1:07:33inquisition start in this context
1:07:35because you're saying I'm a Christian
1:07:37but you're really a Muslim right and
1:07:39they had they have words for them both
1:07:41for the Jews that were doing this and
1:07:43the Muslims who were doing the morisco
1:07:44is a Muslim and uh [sighs] I I forget
1:07:47the Jewish word or the word for the Jews
1:07:49that were doing morenos. Um anyway, and
1:07:53um so the Jews, you know, despite
1:07:57despite how things are today, the Jews
1:08:00were often actually conflated with
1:08:02Muslims, okay? And and and often times
1:08:05they did work and help them, not always.
1:08:07And sometimes the Muslims turned and
1:08:08attacked on the Jews as well. I mean, so
1:08:10it's it's kind of complicated. You can't
1:08:12say, you know, it was always this way or
1:08:13always that way. Um but for example when
1:08:16you know another famous instance where
1:08:19people attack the crusaders is during
1:08:21the first crusade the people's crusades
1:08:23or the peasant crusade went off track
1:08:25again and attacked Jews. Okay. And again
1:08:28the church and the nobles were against
1:08:30that because that's not but the logic
1:08:31was why are we traveling and suffering
1:08:33and going all the way there to fight
1:08:35these Christ enemies when they're right
1:08:37here amongst us. Mhm.
1:08:39>> So yeah, the you know the the Jews in
1:08:43during this time sort of uh I think
1:08:45maybe they had a survival instinct and
1:08:47whoever whoever whether there was a
1:08:49Christian or the Muslim was doing better
1:08:51they probably would ally with or try to
1:08:53be on that be on their good side which
1:08:55kind of makes sense from a survivalist
1:08:56point of view.
1:08:58>> So Raymond we get we we've got to the
1:09:00point where
1:09:02we've got peak Islam. Islam is at its
1:09:04strongest. It is dominant across
1:09:07southern Europe, North Africa, the
1:09:09Middle East.
1:09:10>> We actually haven't though, just so you
1:09:11know, because I didn't even get into the
1:09:12Ottomans who conquer southeastern
1:09:13Europe. We can talk about it or not, but
1:09:15I mean, well, that still isn't even the
1:09:16peak yet, but okay.
1:09:17>> Right. Um, I guess what where I want to
1:09:20take this bit of the conversation now is
1:09:23uh Islam is dominant and remains
1:09:27dominant for many many centuries and as
1:09:29you say all the way through to the
1:09:30Ottoman Empire. uh gets as far as India,
1:09:33the Mongols at some point, right? Uh you
1:09:36know, I was just inbakistan a few the
1:09:38the gray warlord uh
1:09:41>> Timor lang.
1:09:42>> Yeah. Well, they don't like it when you
1:09:43call him that. Tim the great
1:09:45>> not the lame.
1:09:46>> Yeah. Yeah. They [clears throat] don't
1:09:47like you calling him lame. Tim the
1:09:48great. As far as the north of Russia,
1:09:50this guy conquered went as far as
1:09:51paisant and the west, as far as China
1:09:53and the east on the Mongols, the same.
1:09:56[clears throat]
1:09:56>> Right.
1:09:58And then
1:10:01we we are we arrive today. If you're
1:10:03born today, your instinctive
1:10:06understanding of Musl the Muslim world
1:10:09is it's in the Middle East
1:10:14objectively speaking, technologically
1:10:16quite backward, militarily quite weak,
1:10:20um not dominant around the world, and is
1:10:25at least on the surface. This is just
1:10:27how you would think if you were born
1:10:28today engaged in some sort of guerilla
1:10:31warfare against a much more powerful
1:10:33western force. That that would be not
1:10:36putting my own perspective on it, but
1:10:38that would be the impression you'd get.
1:10:40>> And you mentioned Bernard Lewis. He's
1:10:42obviously you wrote a whole book about
1:10:43this. What went wrong?
1:10:45How do you get from bam massive Islamic
1:10:50expansion conquering all the bits of the
1:10:53world that really matter at that point
1:10:55at least from a you know western
1:10:57perspective
1:10:59to the complete collapse of that
1:11:02dominance and where we are today.
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1:11:55>> All right, so let's go back a little to
1:11:58the colonial era because this is really
1:12:00where what what this what you're
1:12:01describing.
1:12:03uh Islam stays dominant and you're right
1:12:05uh people forget that Islam especially
1:12:07the Ottoman Empire was the powerhouse
1:12:10you know it's it's ingrained in people's
1:12:12mind as if Europe was always super
1:12:13powerful and everyone else all these
1:12:15brown people were just being abused and
1:12:16scared of Europe it was the opposite
1:12:18okay as as we discussed but especially
1:12:20with the rise of the Ottomans and these
1:12:22guys last from you know 1300s to the
1:12:251900s and in 1683 they're in Vienna okay
1:12:28with two to 300,000 fighters surrounding
1:12:31it so I So keep that in mind. We started
1:12:34off in the 600s with Muhammad and the
1:12:36first attack on Christian territory in
1:12:37636. 1683 now we're talking a thousand
1:12:41years later. They're around Vienna and
1:12:44uh they're using the same logic and
1:12:46rationale and they're talking about
1:12:47Islam and jihad and you have three
1:12:49choices etc etc. Okay.
1:12:51>> Um and it's not even just at 1683 to
1:12:53bring it to this country, the United
1:12:54States. its very first war as a nation
1:12:58in uh in the as a nation meaning after
1:13:00independence from Britain.
1:13:03>> No need to rub it in. [laughter]
1:13:05>> Yeah, I was trying to word it correctly
1:13:06here. But um uh after that uh and now
1:13:10it's its own country. Its first war is
1:13:11with Muslims, the Barbrey Wars. And
1:13:13again, they're acting exactly on the
1:13:15same logic. and Thomas Jefferson, this
1:13:18great paragon of enlightened thinking,
1:13:20uh, didn't know Islam as well as he
1:13:22should have because when he met with
1:13:24what the Barbary Paris started are doing
1:13:25is actually attack. So, this is very
1:13:27interesting because it goes back to the
1:13:28idea of Jiza. So, a lot of these
1:13:30European powers and I'll get to I'll get
1:13:32to your point, but I'm just trying to
1:13:33build it up to show you what happened.
1:13:34But a lot of these European powers um
1:13:37instead of fighting with the Barbrey
1:13:39Muslim pirates of North Africa whose
1:13:40entire uh economy consisted of slave
1:13:44raids on Europeans as far as Iceland
1:13:46they would go and enslave them uh
1:13:49started just paying them off which the
1:13:51Muslims took as Jiza tribute. Okay. Now
1:13:53when the US uh the United America broke
1:13:56away from Britain, it was no longer
1:13:58covered by Britain's Jiza payments. And
1:14:02once the Muslims found that out, they
1:14:03started attacking American vessels in
1:14:06the Atlantic and in the Mediterranean
1:14:07and enslaving them and engaging all
1:14:09sorts of horrific, you know, abuses
1:14:11against them. I talk a lot about that in
1:14:13one of my books, Sword and Scimitar.
1:14:14Actually, I have a whole chapter about
1:14:16it. Um because if you really read about
1:14:18what was happening to European slaves,
1:14:19including these American ones, it was
1:14:21really sick stuff. Anyway, so that's
1:14:23what provoked the first war uh of
1:14:25America with the Barbrey. But when
1:14:27Jefferson and John Adams met, they tried
1:14:29to, you know, find a diplomatic
1:14:30solution. So they met with um one of the
1:14:32ambassadors from Barbrey
1:14:34Abdul something. And um he they say to
1:14:38him, "Hey, why can't we just have
1:14:39peaceful trade and work together, etc."
1:14:41Typical Americans. And uh he basically
1:14:44he he sounds like an ISIS guy. He goes,
1:14:46"Our prophet and our holy book says you
1:14:48are the infidel. You're the enemy and
1:14:50it's our right to plunder, kill, and
1:14:51enslave you until you acknowledge Allah
1:14:53alone. Okay. So my point is uh just to
1:14:56give you a sort of totality, we started
1:14:58in the 600s. This is now 1800. First war
1:15:01of America. Same mentality, same logic.
1:15:03Now what's interesting also about the
1:15:061800s is that same year around the first
1:15:10Barbary war is around I think 18 or 1801
1:15:12it starts and but in 1800 Napoleon
1:15:15enters Egypt or I'm sorry 1798
1:15:18>> and he easily conquers Egypt. Okay. And
1:15:20this is known also as kind of the
1:15:22beginning of the colonial era. So the
1:15:24colonial era you see Islam go from this
1:15:27super powerful thing and it starts now
1:15:30it becomes now Europe is super powerful
1:15:33technologically militarily economically
1:15:36and it starts spreading out and
1:15:38conquering its former foe people don't
1:15:40realize this but to the colonial powers
1:15:42a lot of them saw themselves as
1:15:44crusaders they were continuing the war I
1:15:47forget his name is it Allen B some guy
1:15:49came and uh you know when they entered
1:15:50and conquered Syria went up to Saladin's
1:15:53tomb supposedly and kicked it and said,
1:15:55"We're back." Meaning, you know, the
1:15:56Franks or the crusaders are back.
1:15:58>> So, to a lot of these Europeans, they
1:16:00they still understood it that way. But
1:16:03>> why it happened? I think because is the
1:16:05Islamic world, as I was kind of telling
1:16:08you, its entire economy was based on war
1:16:10and plunder and slave and the slave
1:16:13system. Okay? And they it never produced
1:16:15anything the way Europe eventually went
1:16:18to, especially technologically and
1:16:19militarily. Um so I think on once once
1:16:23any Muslim region power is unable to
1:16:26conquer and plunder it has no economy
1:16:28and it starts falling apart and this
1:16:30happened before. So the Ottoman Empire
1:16:32still persists
1:16:34and why does it persist? because it
1:16:36westernizes whereas the rest of the
1:16:38Middle East, you know, Egypt and which
1:16:40was by then sort of run by the Mlukes
1:16:42and all these other areas are completely
1:16:44now just spent, you know, uh there's
1:16:47nothing to plunder. There's no economy.
1:16:49Everything's falling apart. It's very
1:16:50easily taken over. Uh but but the
1:16:53Ottomans, they westernized,
1:16:55>> which is ironic because the Ottomans
1:16:56were the chief uh you know, standard
1:16:59bearers of jihad. They actually took to
1:17:01jihad and articulated it more than the
1:17:02Arabs, their forebears did. That was
1:17:05their thing. Okay. And you know under a
1:17:08turk they actually got rid of the Arabic
1:17:10script took the Roman alphabet dressed
1:17:12in Roman I'm sorry not Roman western
1:17:15attire shave the beards etc etc. So
1:17:17there everyone became westward looking
1:17:20including you know the Muslims who could
1:17:21because that was the way to you know win
1:17:24and the Islamic way now that it it's it
1:17:27it kind of spent it became a spent force
1:17:29at this point and it was kind of an
1:17:31anacronism and really didn't have much
1:17:33kind of the way it did things was no
1:17:35longer going to work in this new world
1:17:38with Europe the way it was and uh so
1:17:40that's so the colonial era is a very
1:17:43important thing to keep in mind because
1:17:45uh you know these It's it's funny too
1:17:48again. Here we go. The the colonial
1:17:50colonial era and what happened nowadays
1:17:53is presented as so horrible. You know
1:17:55these evil European white guys going
1:17:57into you know these countries not just
1:17:59Muslim countries India and colonizing.
1:18:03But what's funny is if you read the
1:18:05written the writings of natives from the
1:18:08colonial era they talk about it as the
1:18:09greatest time. This is the time when we
1:18:11had learning, when we had medicine, when
1:18:14we had science and technology because
1:18:16the Europeans also brought this stuff
1:18:17with them. They did, right? Um whereas
1:18:20you know if you look at places that
1:18:21Islam conquered there's places in Spain
1:18:23where they had that constant war in the
1:18:25middle you know you had the Christians
1:18:26in the north and that are just until now
1:18:29like infertile and just totally
1:18:30devastated because um so at least you
1:18:34know the Europeans brought all this
1:18:35stuff and a lot of this is the time when
1:18:39so here's an irony you know when I think
1:18:41of when I think of religion or whatever
1:18:44someone becoming conservative and and
1:18:46clinging to the old ways I just can't
1:18:47help but think that through time things
1:18:49become more liberal. What's happening is
1:18:52actually the opposite in the Islamic
1:18:53world. If you go to the Middle East in
1:18:55the 1930s,
1:18:57way way more liberal and western looking
1:18:59than anything today. The people weren't
1:19:02resentful. They were actually trying to
1:19:04westernize. They dressed like
1:19:06westerners. They uh the women didn't
1:19:08have the hijab. They dress they were
1:19:10decent. Not I don't mean in a
1:19:12promiscuous way, but they dressed in
1:19:14dresses and they looked good. men were
1:19:16in suits and ties and they shaved. So,
1:19:19Islam was sort of uh Islam's appeal was
1:19:22it's the strong horse and if you join
1:19:25us, you get all these benefits that we
1:19:27were talking about.
1:19:28>> And once Muslims start seeing that that
1:19:30wasn't the case, it's really fell by the
1:19:32wayside.
1:19:33>> And so, that's why I find it ironic if
1:19:34you look at you would think that, you
1:19:37know, in 2025 Muslims are going to be
1:19:39more liberal than in 1925. It's the
1:19:42exact opposite. And I find that very
1:19:44interesting. And I think it starts going
1:19:46to where we're headed talking the bigger
1:19:48talk about you know the modern era and I
1:19:50believe a lot of that actually has to do
1:19:52with this that in as much as the west
1:19:56exuded power and confidence Muslims
1:19:58followed it and which is human nature
1:20:00whoever you know whoever's strong or
1:20:02smarter than you or whatever you can
1:20:04learn from you're going to try to
1:20:05emulate and but once the west sort of
1:20:08started hating itself and promoting
1:20:11everyone else so let's say in the
1:20:12whatever 1960s just to give a a rough
1:20:14date where all of a sudden now you know
1:20:17it was all how we're it's it the
1:20:20narrative became Europeans are the
1:20:21horrible people everyone is great and in
1:20:24fact Islam is even better and Islam is
1:20:27what a wonderful religion I think that
1:20:29actually pushed Muslims back so on the
1:20:31one hand it actually [clears throat] get
1:20:33made them disrespect the west naturally
1:20:36so it's it's very easy to
1:20:38[clears throat] have contempt and
1:20:39disdain for someone who just disrespects
1:20:41themselves and and fawns over you that's
1:20:43just human nature And it also sort of
1:20:46made so it made them go back said who
1:20:48they basically said yeah you're right
1:20:49you're just a bunch of dirty infidels.
1:20:51So the theory became and it was very
1:20:52well articulated by an Egyptian
1:20:54theoretician of the Muslim Brotherhood
1:20:56Sey Dut who came to America
1:20:59>> and he was kind of a moderate Muslim
1:21:02then he came to America I think in the
1:21:0350s and he was just scandalized by how
1:21:06liberal Americans were and you know men
1:21:08and women were consorting together etc
1:21:10etc. So he developed this idea which
1:21:12became very prominent which is you know
1:21:14these infidels in the west you can
1:21:16appropriate and learn from them
1:21:17technology or science things of this
1:21:20nature but when it comes to mor to the
1:21:22greater metaphysical issues religion
1:21:24certainly we have to stick to Islam and
1:21:27that was really this is one of the chief
1:21:29return to Islam. So the idea is yeah we
1:21:32can learn from them secular
1:21:33materialistic things but as far as how a
1:21:36society is governed or structured or how
1:21:38individuals should live their lives or
1:21:40even as collectives this is of course
1:21:42Islam and all the while the west further
1:21:45promotes that and sponsors that kind of
1:21:46thinking and uh stifles its own heritage
1:21:50and this is my point is you see how
1:21:51that's very different than their
1:21:53forebears the colonial the the
1:21:55colonizers the colonizers were
1:21:57unabashedly proud there's this famous
1:21:59story I forget his name but
1:22:01general in India during the colonial era
1:22:03where they you know he just saw some
1:22:05ruckus and a bunch of Indian Indians who
1:22:07were going to burn a woman alive. Sati I
1:22:10think it's called where if if your if a
1:22:11man dies and his woman is still alive
1:22:13they burn her on his p and he found out
1:22:16what's going on and he tried to ban it
1:22:18and they said uh well this is our custom
1:22:20and etc. And he said okay you do your
1:22:22custom we'll do ours and our custom is
1:22:24when men burn women alive we hang them
1:22:26all. Okay. So that kind of perspective
1:22:30the west had which was respectable from
1:22:32even from the adversary whereas now it's
1:22:35completely gone. Now it's oh yeah you do
1:22:36whatever you want you're right your
1:22:38culture is superior etc etc. And this of
1:22:40course continues till this day. And I
1:22:42believe that's what exacerbates and
1:22:44brings out the worst of Muslims. This is
1:22:47why it's ironic when you look in the
1:22:48west and in Europe often times the
1:22:50Muslims who are the most radical are the
1:22:52second third generation Muslims. And I
1:22:54think a lot of it has to do with this
1:22:56sort of symbiotic relationship with sort
1:22:58of western um self-degradation which
1:23:01only provokes them to fall back more on
1:23:04their own Islamic heritage and have even
1:23:06more contempt for westerners even as
1:23:08westerners fall over themselves thinking
1:23:10oh I need to you know appease him some
1:23:12more that's how he'll like me when it's
1:23:14of course doing the exact opposite.
1:23:16Well, just on that, sorry France, just
1:23:18to finish on this. Um, just on that
1:23:20actually, we were talking, France and I
1:23:22were talking the other day and we we
1:23:23talked about one of the reasons that
1:23:24there does seem to be a difference in
1:23:27integration
1:23:28uh in America versus Europe. Uh, and one
1:23:31of the reasons is the first thing an
1:23:33American new a first generation American
1:23:35does is teaches kids to love America. At
1:23:37least historically speaking, that was
1:23:39that was the trend in Europe. that sort
1:23:42of cohesive idea of like well you're one
1:23:45of us now but like you better be one of
1:23:46us now doesn't really exist in the same
1:23:49way and I guess that's what you're
1:23:50saying
1:23:50>> yeah and it doesn't exist because no
1:23:52you're instead of being proud a European
1:23:55or an American and saying hey join us be
1:23:57one of us I I would never do that please
1:23:59stay your way I mean here in America for
1:24:01example this is the same logic behind
1:24:04where every wherever I go I don't just
1:24:06see English I see Spanish and I see
1:24:07Arabic and I see you know Hindi it's
1:24:09kind of like well most countries It's
1:24:11it's it's actually perceived as a sort
1:24:13of weakness and it's not something that
1:24:15makes these immigrant people respect you
1:24:17because that's not how they would be
1:24:19ever.
1:24:20>> If you come to their country, you will
1:24:21you will you're the one who's going to
1:24:23um assimilate. That's the logic and that
1:24:25makes sense of course. So, um a lot of
1:24:28that is why these and it's even worse I
1:24:31think in Europe than in America. One of
1:24:32the the the issues it's not just what
1:24:34you were saying. Another thing is that
1:24:37especially if it comes to Muslims, uh
1:24:38the numbers are so much smaller. And
1:24:40what's happening in Europe is they're
1:24:42just they're they're ghettoized. There's
1:24:44so many and they just literally they
1:24:46live amongst each other. They they don't
1:24:48even speak or whatever the language,
1:24:49let's say it's in in the UK, English.
1:24:51They may go whole days and weeks without
1:24:53needing to speak it because everyone
1:24:54around them just speaks their language.
1:24:56So they never assimilate and then they
1:24:58become sort of like a little enclave or
1:25:00a little ghetto. And it's funny because
1:25:02there's actually a historical precedent
1:25:04to this and it's a it's an Arabic word
1:25:07which is called rabbot. It's a military
1:25:09term and a rabbot is basically remember
1:25:11how I was telling you Muslim conquest
1:25:12they go as far as they can until they're
1:25:14stopped. Now wherever they're stopped
1:25:16they would form uh fortresses and
1:25:18barriers known as ribbot. Rabbat is
1:25:20actually like a word connected to the
1:25:22idea of a rope or or a tight chain. So
1:25:25they would form these fortresses and
1:25:26from there they would continue harassing
1:25:29the infidel whenever they can and just
1:25:31engaging in terror tactics or raiding
1:25:33them etc etc and their goal was to
1:25:35eventually conquer more land. What I
1:25:37find interesting is a lot of these
1:25:38Muslims in in the European cities they
1:25:41they see themselves actually as and I've
1:25:44seen them talk of themselves as we are
1:25:46rebotists. Okay, we are the jihadists
1:25:48who are forming a chain in now. It's not
1:25:51it's not just on the border with infidel
1:25:54countries. It's right smack in the
1:25:55middle of their cities because they've
1:25:56been allowed to come in. Um so they see
1:25:59themselves as actually jihadists and uh
1:26:02we're here we're you see it all the time
1:26:04where they just throw it in the face of
1:26:06the natives of Europe. You know, your
1:26:07country is going to be Muslim in a few
1:26:09years. You know, you guys it's and it I
1:26:12it probably will due to demographic
1:26:14changes and birth rates and whatnot. It
1:26:16makes sense. Um,
1:26:19>> and on that uplifting note, [laughter]
1:26:23let's talk about the West as it is
1:26:24because you've identified the key
1:26:26points. You know, the confidence is in
1:26:28decline.
1:26:30Birth rates are in decline, demographics
1:26:32are going to change. So looking forward
1:26:36and looking at the immigration that's
1:26:38coming in, but also Muslim birth rates
1:26:40in the UK and the West more generally,
1:26:43what can we see through this trajectory
1:26:45and where do you think is going to be
1:26:47the final destination as it were?
1:26:50>> Um, again, that's going to I guess
1:26:52depend on the nation and the region
1:26:54we're talking about because and here's
1:26:56the thing. I guess the first thing I'd
1:26:57like to say is what's happening.
1:26:59>> Here's the difference between Islam
1:27:01historically and Islam today. The
1:27:03continuity is that Muslims are creating
1:27:04problems. Okay? [laughter] They did it
1:27:06historically. The violence and the
1:27:08intolerance and the supremacism. Okay?
1:27:10And it's happening now in the present.
1:27:12The difference is historically, like I
1:27:14said, it was the jihad of force, right?
1:27:16They had they had no choice and no one
1:27:18was going to let them in. So Europeans
1:27:19fought tooth and nail, you know, fight
1:27:21fighting to the death. Now the problem
1:27:24is I think you mentioned it earlier or I
1:27:27don't know if it was you Francis but you
1:27:28talked about Muslims how they're very
1:27:30weak right now and uh you know they're
1:27:32not a they're they're a weak force why
1:27:34are they a problem and the answer is
1:27:37because the west makes them a problem or
1:27:39the specific country in the west let's
1:27:41say the UK okay all the problems that
1:27:44the UK is going through for an example
1:27:46due to or and not just UK much of
1:27:48Western Europe it's all self-made okay
1:27:50and you know that because I can look at
1:27:52an Eastern n country like Hungary and it
1:27:54has none of these problems. Is that
1:27:55because Muslims tried to invade Hungary
1:27:57by force and somehow the Hungarians
1:27:59resurrected John Hunyatti and they and
1:28:01they beat them back? No. They just said
1:28:03no immigration. We don't want it. And
1:28:05guess what? No problem. So this is I
1:28:08think the and this is why a lot of
1:28:09people get upset. I remember I once
1:28:11wrote an article because a lot of people
1:28:13in the UK were complaining about you
1:28:15know there's an Islamic invasion,
1:28:16Muslims are invasion and I basically
1:28:18said no get your terms right. This is
1:28:21not an invasion. An invasion is when
1:28:23people come by force and they're trying
1:28:24to take it. This is an invitation. Okay.
1:28:27This is an enablement from your leaders.
1:28:30So I think it's very important. My point
1:28:31is to I like to when I look at a
1:28:34problem, you know, not not veer off kind
1:28:36of um in tangents, but get to the heart
1:28:38of it. And the heart of the problem
1:28:40today with Europe and Islam, it's really
1:28:42not the Muslims. I often give this
1:28:44analogy where like um I say imagine a
1:28:47enclosure of zebras and I all of a
1:28:49sudden decide to put a lion in and lo
1:28:51and behold a lion starts killing the
1:28:52zebras. Who's really at fault? Me or the
1:28:55lion? I think it's me. The lion's a
1:28:57lion. Okay, lion's going to do what a
1:28:59lion's going to do. Muslim's a Muslim.
1:29:01He's going to have the anti-infidel
1:29:03thing going on, the tribalism that I
1:29:05mentioned. Okay, but why are they being
1:29:08brought in with all these massive
1:29:10numbers? Why are the native Brits let's
1:29:12say or Europeans in general being their
1:29:15heritage and their religion and their
1:29:16cultures being suppressed to make room
1:29:19for these people in the name of some
1:29:21sort of amorphous tolerance or you know
1:29:23multiculturalism which is obviously not
1:29:25working. So my point is the ultimate if
1:29:27you want to talk about trajectories it
1:29:29depends really on the countries and it's
1:29:31actually in a way easily fixed if the
1:29:34actual supposedly uh elected
1:29:37representatives of these various nations
1:29:39do the will of the people but they're
1:29:41not and that's really the issue. So I
1:29:44would tell people you know your Islam
1:29:46problem is less about Muslims and it's
1:29:49more about the people who are enabling
1:29:50and empowering them and bringing them in
1:29:52against your will. These are the people
1:29:54who have the same names like you and
1:29:55they look like you and they are
1:29:56apparently, you know, ruling in your
1:29:58name, but they're obviously not. And
1:30:01it's, you know, it's it's become very
1:30:02obvious right now. So, I think people
1:30:04should look at the ultimate source of
1:30:06the problem. Islam is a problem
1:30:08intrinsically. You can say that, but now
1:30:10there's an instrumental there's an
1:30:12instrumental force empowering it, which
1:30:14is, like I said, why in other countries,
1:30:16Poland and Hungary, it's not an issue.
1:30:18and uh you know they it can be fixed or
1:30:22I mean it's not going to be easy now
1:30:23obviously but something can be done if
1:30:25the actual elected officials cared to do
1:30:27it but they don't
1:30:28>> so but so you've used the example of
1:30:30Poland or Hungary and they're relevant
1:30:32but don't you think part of it as well
1:30:34Raymond is for one of a better term
1:30:37white guilt you know we went the British
1:30:39went out we colonized we colonized a lot
1:30:42of these countries and a lot of the
1:30:44Islamic immigration into the UK is from
1:30:47Pakistan and Bangladesh both former
1:30:49colonies. So that must play its own role
1:30:51as well.
1:30:52>> Oh yeah, the white guilt. But I mean
1:30:53that is to me the most contemptable of
1:30:55all factors that really needs to go
1:30:57away. This white guilt I never
1:30:58understand it. Um you know I I did a
1:31:01recent like study about because we have
1:31:03Columbus Day here and all these people
1:31:05get up and oh you know himing and hawing
1:31:07oh horrible Columbus and what he did to
1:31:08the natives etc. In fact and Muslims are
1:31:10doing this too. And my point is like
1:31:13talk about living in glass houses all
1:31:14their heroes did far worse than
1:31:16Christopher Columbus. So my point is
1:31:18whatever the white man's guilt
1:31:20>> it's it the same thing's been done to
1:31:22him and to everyone else okay whites
1:31:25were enslaved by blacks
1:31:26>> whites were in you know uh conquered and
1:31:29I told you Muslims Moors as they were
1:31:31known from North Africa because of their
1:31:33dark skin went all the way to Iceland
1:31:36very fair people and enslaved them in
1:31:38the 1500s and in there in in by England
1:31:41there was a little island maybe you know
1:31:43called Lundy which actually was a haven
1:31:45of barbary pirates who would
1:31:47raid and enslave British people. So my
1:31:50point is this white guilt is really
1:31:52manufactured and it needs to be you know
1:31:54seen for what it is. If anything I mean
1:31:56being objective I was just telling you
1:31:58that the colonial era which is the white
1:32:00man they actually okay you can say they
1:32:02conquered uh whatever the Muslim world
1:32:04India deep into Africa but they actually
1:32:07brought good stuff with them. Okay, this
1:32:09which is why the native population
1:32:10speaks well about that time like they
1:32:13brought science and technology and you
1:32:15know literacy, medicine etc. Okay, what
1:32:18did now the other people we're talking
1:32:20about that conquered including the
1:32:22conquered Europeans brought nothing but
1:32:24death, destruction and slavery. Okay, so
1:32:26when it's all said and done I don't
1:32:28think there's much for the white man to
1:32:30really feel guilty about. And I say this
1:32:31as a guy as a guy who doesn't think of
1:32:33himself as white by the way. Okay. So,
1:32:35I'm just trying to be as objective as
1:32:36possible and uh and but see, the fact
1:32:39that this exists, and I'm glad you
1:32:40brought it up, just shows you how far
1:32:42gone so many white people are, that
1:32:44they're so caught up in something so
1:32:45silly that all these other peoples who
1:32:47are not white would never even think and
1:32:49shouldn't think of something like that
1:32:52to actually govern how they see the
1:32:53world that, oh, my forefathers did
1:32:55something, so England is bringing
1:32:57Pakistanis in because they feel bad
1:32:59because they colonized Pakistan. I mean
1:33:01that is just [laughter] such silly and
1:33:04stupid thinking
1:33:05>> Raymond and you you use the example and
1:33:07I mean it was a provocative example of
1:33:10uh zebras and a lion and then there'll
1:33:13be people who are listening this or
1:33:14watching this going yeah but I've got a
1:33:16Muslim mate he's a nice guy he's like
1:33:18he's not like that bl you know is isn't
1:33:21that just a bit reductive and unfair
1:33:25>> yeah yeah no I'm not saying that uh
1:33:27every Muslim is a lion who's trying to
1:33:29kill you what I'm saying is So, let's go
1:33:31with okay, the most conservative
1:33:32estimate I've ever heard. I often hear
1:33:34like 10% of Muslims are radical. I I
1:33:37mean, I think and I've heard a lot of
1:33:38people say it's more than that. Okay,
1:33:39but let's say 10. I think that's fair.
1:33:41>> And I think it's important to delineate
1:33:43what does actually radical mean.
1:33:44>> Okay. Well, now we're going to go down
1:33:46another rabbit hole. But so radical,
1:33:48what it means, what people mean by that
1:33:50is this is the weird crazy Muslim who's
1:33:52not not practicing true Islam. He's
1:33:54doing this crazy violent Islam.
1:33:56>> Mhm. To me, radical Muslim is just a
1:33:58fundamentalist Muslim who's following
1:34:00his religion to a tea. Okay. And the
1:34:03moderate Muslim in this parlance, which
1:34:05is not accurate, is supposedly the
1:34:06Muslim who's who's practicing good true
1:34:08Islam.
1:34:09>> To me, the moderate Muslim who exists is
1:34:11actually the nonchalant Muslim who's not
1:34:13taking his religion all that seriously.
1:34:15So, they exist. I do believe that these
1:34:17two distinctions exist. I just think the
1:34:19words are uh inaccurate. Okay? It
1:34:21shouldn't be a moderate and a radical.
1:34:23It should be a purist and an observant
1:34:26Muslim which is the radical and the
1:34:28nonchalant secular cultural Muslim okay
1:34:30which is the moderate and they exist. So
1:34:32now let's say these um let's let's say
1:34:3410% are the observant radicals right and
1:34:38I give you that number because that's
1:34:39the smallest number I've heard from
1:34:41people who are serious. Okay so my point
1:34:43is yeah um but when you bring in
1:34:46millions of Muslims okay what's 10% of
1:34:49that? I don't know what the population,
1:34:50let's say, England is, but I know it's
1:34:52>> 4 million
1:34:52>> 4 million Muslims. Okay. So, you have
1:34:54400,000 radicals, right? So, you have
1:34:57400,000 who might act like a lion. And
1:35:00um so, does what does that mean? I'm I I
1:35:02agree. The other ones don't, right? But
1:35:05you're taking a chance. It's kind of
1:35:06like saying um it's kind of like saying,
1:35:09you know, I'm going to give you a jar of
1:35:10candy and only 10 10 out of the hundred
1:35:1310 are poisonous. Big deal. Take a
1:35:16chance. They taste good. Right now,
1:35:18again, all of this the these are, like
1:35:19you said, reductive analogies. And I
1:35:21understand and I do believe a lot of
1:35:22Muslims who come, especially a lot of
1:35:24them, like I said, come from they come
1:35:26from an Islamic background, but they're
1:35:27not observant.
1:35:28>> Okay. Yeah, I do believe a lot of these
1:35:30people come to Europe looking just for a
1:35:32good life um and whatnot and are not
1:35:35necessarily dedicated to conquering and
1:35:37and what I've been discussing. I get all
1:35:39that, but it's it's the numbers and it's
1:35:41the fact that they don't assimilate and
1:35:43the fact that if it's 10%. 10% is still
1:35:45a humongous number. If you said it's 4
1:35:47million, we're talking 400,000. And I
1:35:49would and again, I'm giving you the 10%.
1:35:51I'm I'm trying to be kind of lenient
1:35:53here, but I think it's more. You know,
1:35:55maybe it's 20 25%. Um, and you know this
1:35:58because if you listen to what comes out
1:36:00of these mosques, including in the UK,
1:36:02it's it's the radical variety, that is
1:36:04to say, the accurate variety. So um yeah
1:36:08I so this is what makes this kind of a
1:36:10quagmire and not an easy thing
1:36:12especially from the western liberal
1:36:13mentality which wants to help the
1:36:15underdog and in fact there is some a lot
1:36:18of them are underdogs but it comes with
1:36:21a risk and the risk is what you see
1:36:22happening in the UK which is once in a
1:36:24while a Muslim man gets up and stabs
1:36:26children and people and just uh drives
1:36:29his truck into some people. Okay.
1:36:30>> Why does he do that?
1:36:32Well, one one of the reasons that most
1:36:34people don't realize is that the Islamic
1:36:35State uh in fact always issues these
1:36:38kind of um calls telling them to do
1:36:41precisely that. It tells Muslims that if
1:36:43you're living in the West, terrorize
1:36:45them. Don't forget you're a member of
1:36:46the Islamic State and drive your trucks
1:36:49into them, drive your cars into them, go
1:36:51stab them, um attack civilians, don't
1:36:53attack uh military, in other words,
1:36:55attack whatever is easy and soft
1:36:57targets. Um, so one of the reasons that
1:36:59they're instructed to by these Islamic
1:37:01radicals and the other is
1:37:03>> where are these Islamic radicals?
1:37:04>> Where are they?
1:37:05>> Yeah. [laughter]
1:37:06>> Everywhere. You mean ISIS? Where are
1:37:09they?
1:37:10>> Well, I don't know. I mean um the one
1:37:12there's a they issue a magazine uh that
1:37:15comes out every couple weeks and you
1:37:17know comes online in the darknet and uh
1:37:20but and that's another term you know
1:37:22when you a lot of people get caught up.
1:37:24Okay, I understand there's bad guys,
1:37:25it's ISIS, it's al-Qaeda, etc., etc. I
1:37:28don't get caught up in these these kind
1:37:29of terms because the issue we're talking
1:37:32about is ideological and it transcends
1:37:34these finite organizations that come and
1:37:37go.
1:37:37>> What about the Muslim Brotherhood?
1:37:39>> Well, they're they're known as the sort
1:37:40of granddaddy of all these
1:37:42organizations. Al-Qaeda was u you know
1:37:45Aean Zahari I was telling about Sey Kut
1:37:47of Muslim Brotherhood. He's one of the
1:37:48earliest. Aean Zawahari was also who
1:37:50became the leader of al-Qaeda was
1:37:52formerly the Muslim Brotherhood. and the
1:37:54difference that the Muslim Brotherhood
1:37:56and these groups have. So, for example,
1:37:57in the writings of Aean Al- Zwahari,
1:37:59which I translated from Arabic way, way
1:38:01back almost two decades ago, um he
1:38:03complained about the Muslim Brotherhood
1:38:04because they're too patient and they
1:38:06take a sort of incremental approach and
1:38:08they don't want to do jihad, which is in
1:38:10fact what makes them more dangerous. So,
1:38:12he was more representative of the sort
1:38:15of ISIS thing, which is I want to do
1:38:16jihad now, you know, I want to go kill
1:38:17the infidel. Whereas the Muslim
1:38:19Brotherhood um is sort of it's just a
1:38:22subversive kind of power. And I don't
1:38:24know if you know, but the FBI actually
1:38:26caught some documents back in 2009 that
1:38:29actually are from the Muslim Brotherhood
1:38:31talking about how they're waging a
1:38:33civilizational jihad in America trying
1:38:36to subvert etc etc and all these
1:38:38organizations that are branches from it
1:38:39like CARE, the Council on American
1:38:41Islamic Relations. So, these are the
1:38:43groups that are engaged in what I told
1:38:44you, the jihad of the tongue, the jihad
1:38:46of the pen, the jihad of um, you know,
1:38:48the money. They're all working for the
1:38:50same purpose that ISIS is, but through
1:38:52legal measures, um, you know, through
1:38:54propaganda and whatnot.
1:38:55>> And I know that to someone who is as
1:38:57indepth with all this stuff as you,
1:38:59these questions may sound kind of naive,
1:39:02>> but what do they want exactly? Like if
1:39:06if they keep stab We just had a ter
1:39:08several terrorist attacks actually in
1:39:10the UK. just a guy goes up to somebody
1:39:13in the street, stabs them, no
1:39:14provocation, nothing. What is that
1:39:17designed to achieve? What's the point of
1:39:18that?
1:39:19>> That's actually a good question. Um, so
1:39:21on the one hand, and this is actually
1:39:24really interesting because there's a
1:39:25school of thought. So I told you about
1:39:27ISIS issuing these um these uh
1:39:29directives.
1:39:31A lot of Muslims in the Muslim world
1:39:33tell you ISIS isn't an Islamic
1:39:34organization. It's actually working uh
1:39:36for Western elements to make people hate
1:39:39Muslims. And honestly, when I see
1:39:42because you asked a good question. What
1:39:43is the point in telling Muslims go and
1:39:45stab people? What does that do? Does
1:39:47that somehow have a strategic purpose?
1:39:49All it does is make people hate Muslims,
1:39:51right? I mean, that's that's the logic.
1:39:53And I'm only I'm not telling you this is
1:39:54what I believe, but I've never I've the
1:39:57civilizational jihad via the Muslim
1:39:59Brotherhood. That makes more sense to me
1:40:01than these organizations who just say,
1:40:03"Hey, all they literally the the Islamic
1:40:06State once said they issued a a kind of
1:40:10one of their declarations at the peak of
1:40:12uh you know the I think it was the
1:40:14beginning of the um when the Israeli
1:40:16Palestinian stuff a couple years ago and
1:40:18they told Muslims don't attack Israel
1:40:20because if you do you're going to only
1:40:22empower Hamas and they're not true
1:40:24Muslims and the PLO. Okay? and instead
1:40:28we want you and then they attacked Iran.
1:40:30It was in the context of of they killed
1:40:32like a hundred people in Kermon.
1:40:34>> And so they said this is we're attacking
1:40:36Iran because Iran's evil stupid Shia,
1:40:39you know, Sunnis Shia and why would you
1:40:41want to fight Israel and help these
1:40:43other guys like the PLO who are not true
1:40:45Muslims. Instead go to Europe and do
1:40:47that crash into them, decapitate them
1:40:49and and throw terror in their hearts.
1:40:52And everyone in the Arab world said,
1:40:53"See, this is not real ISIS." But on the
1:40:56other hand, what they are teaching is in
1:40:59the Quran. So when they so Quran 95
1:41:02famously it's known as a sword verse and
1:41:05it tells Muslims it's actually remember
1:41:06I was telling about Jefferson talking
1:41:08with an ambassador. He basically
1:41:10paraphrased it. That verse says when you
1:41:12know the forbidden months have passed
1:41:14wait slay the idoltors wherever you find
1:41:17them. The pagans lay and wait for them
1:41:18ambush them terrorize them. Okay. So
1:41:21what you're saying is, and correct me if
1:41:22I'm misunderstanding, this is not
1:41:24strategic. This is doctrinal.
1:41:26>> Yeah. From from the Islamic State,
1:41:28that's what I would argue. And this is
1:41:30why a lot of other Muslim groups who
1:41:32have the same goal, they'd like to see
1:41:34Islamic hedgemony around the world, um,
1:41:37don't take that route because to them,
1:41:40you're even al-Qaeda, for example, which
1:41:42is ISIS when I translated the writing.
1:41:45So what they said to the West was we're
1:41:47doing this because you attacked us.
1:41:48We're doing this because you support
1:41:50Israel. We're doing this because you
1:41:51didn't sign the Kyoto Protocol. It was
1:41:53always a grievance. Seriously, it was a
1:41:55grievance after grievance. And it was
1:41:57had nothing to do with doctrine. Then
1:41:59the writings I came across, this is my
1:42:01first book, the al-Qaeda reader, which
1:42:02came out 2007. And the reason it was a
1:42:05kind of a big deal at the time, I was
1:42:06working at the Library of Congress and I
1:42:07came all across these Arabic writings by
1:42:08Osama bin Laden and Aean Zahari. And
1:42:11they said now they now they sounded like
1:42:12ISIS and it was we're hate them not
1:42:15because of what they do. It's because
1:42:16they're infidels and we have to hate the
1:42:17infidels and we have to fight them and
1:42:19we have to do jihad. Okay. So, even
1:42:21al-Qaeda was smart enough to, you know,
1:42:24play the double game and and say, "Hey,
1:42:26we're we're only doing this to you
1:42:28because you you hit us first." But ISIS
1:42:30is is so to me, I always say they're
1:42:32refreshingly honest. But in a way that
1:42:35doesn't really help the cause as a lot
1:42:37of Muslims point up because what you're
1:42:39doing is you're sort of exposing us. And
1:42:41yeah, when you go and you stab toddlers
1:42:43in the UK or whatever, what is that?
1:42:46How's that helping from a strategic
1:42:48point? So, it's it's a it's a good
1:42:49question.
1:42:50>> Uh I suppose the interesting question
1:42:52for me is how do we move forward with
1:42:54given the realities that we have? uh and
1:42:58uh one thing that I have some hope for
1:43:00but I want to run it by you and get your
1:43:02perspective is we do see uh the in some
1:43:06Middle Eastern countries like the UAE
1:43:08like Saudi Arabia also in central Asia I
1:43:10like I mentioned I was inspectan
1:43:13they don't tolerate the you might not
1:43:16agree about the terminology but they do
1:43:18not tolerate violent jihadis
1:43:20>> they themselves
1:43:22>> know that they are the first target of
1:43:24these
1:43:24>> jihadis and they actually deal with the
1:43:27Muslim Brotherhood. They deal with all
1:43:30of these terrorist adjacent or actual
1:43:32terrorist organizations. They don't
1:43:34allow preaching extremist versions of
1:43:36Islam and mosques. In Usbekistan, if you
1:43:39want to work for the government, you
1:43:40can't have a beard. Uh you can't wear uh
1:43:43not just a hijab, you you can't even
1:43:45wear a headscarf of any kind if you're a
1:43:48woman. So do you think that there is
1:43:52some hope that because of this kind of
1:43:54thing, the Muslim world, the the center
1:43:57of gravity in the Muslim world will move
1:44:00towards a more uh a less extreme and
1:44:04more moderate version of of the of the
1:44:06faith?
1:44:07>> You mean if more Muslim nations act more
1:44:09like Central Asian Asians?
1:44:10>> Yeah. Or or like the UAE or like Saudi
1:44:12Arabia increasingly, right? Um do you
1:44:15think that that will move the center of
1:44:17gravity towards a different kind of
1:44:19Islam and therefore a different kind of
1:44:20relationship between Islam and
1:44:22Christianity?
1:44:23>> Yeah, if if Islam can be changed. Okay.
1:44:26And immediately I'm struck with a quote
1:44:27from the Encyclopedia of Islam which was
1:44:29written by a jurist and he said Islam
1:44:32needs to be completely made over for the
1:44:34doctrine of jihad which it defined as
1:44:36what I defined which is unprovoked
1:44:38warfare to conquer the world. Okay. He
1:44:40said it had to be remade over. Can that
1:44:43be done? I suppose. Um, but it would not
1:44:46it would no longer really be Islam. And
1:44:48I think I mean if you look around at
1:44:49certain versions of Christianity, I mean
1:44:52that's the case there. That's not
1:44:53historic Christianity. So I suppose that
1:44:56can be done. Um, you know the examples
1:44:59you gave of these Central Asian
1:45:00countries. It's very interesting because
1:45:02you know they are nominal Muslims but
1:45:04like you said they're the first ones who
1:45:06clamp down on that stuff because they
1:45:07will be the first victims. It's even the
1:45:10Muslim Brotherhood is outlawed in Egypt
1:45:11where it was born,
1:45:12>> right?
1:45:13>> But at the same time, Cece and his
1:45:14government pays a lot of lip service and
1:45:16is engaged in Islamizing Egypt and he
1:45:20will ally with the Celies who are
1:45:21actually more ideologically draconian
1:45:23than Muslim Brotherhood. So there's a
1:45:25lot of kind of like shifting back and
1:45:27forth with how this works. But you know
1:45:29the bottom line is Islam is what Islam
1:45:31is. Okay? And unlike other religions,
1:45:33it's very black and white. you know the
1:45:35the whole concept the problem with
1:45:37western people is they project their own
1:45:39religion kind of and they then they're
1:45:40convinced that for example Christianity
1:45:43is you know separation of secular and
1:45:45and spiritual you know Caesar the coin
1:45:48and whatnot but that's not Islam Islam
1:45:50is not it's not about the condition of
1:45:52your heart and relationship you have
1:45:53with God it's actually all about the law
1:45:57it's legalistic and uh in fact and
1:46:00everything in Islam is there's five you
1:46:02know either it's forbidden you can't do
1:46:04It's disliked. You shouldn't do but you
1:46:07can technically it's neutral. You can or
1:46:09don't have to do. It's recommended. You
1:46:10should do but you don't have to. Or it's
1:46:12obligatory. Everything in life. So Islam
1:46:14really permeates. So can it change? Can
1:46:17they rearticulate it? I suppose. But
1:46:19you're always going to have the
1:46:20hardliners who say, "Hey, that's not
1:46:22what our book says. That's not what the
1:46:23Quran says. That's not what Muhammad
1:46:25said in the hadith." Um so I think it
1:46:28would actually be easier to just snuff
1:46:29it out altogether. Um from Muslims
1:46:32themselves. In other words, I always
1:46:34find the apostate more honest with
1:46:37himself or herself than the moderate
1:46:39Muslim. And uh because the apostate is
1:46:41kind of like, you look, I'm not going to
1:46:43kid myself. It is what it is and I don't
1:46:45want to be like that. Whereas the
1:46:46moderate, you know, they engage in all
1:46:48these um sort of intellectual gymnastics
1:46:50in their head to get by. I mean, if if
1:46:52Muhammad himself in a canonical hadith
1:46:54says whoever the apostate, kill him.
1:46:59Okay? or you know or in the Quran itself
1:47:02you are allowed to you're it's
1:47:03permissible for a man to have sex slaves
1:47:05infidel female sex slaves as many as
1:47:07your right hand possess okay these sorts
1:47:10of things if if I'm a Muslim and I don't
1:47:13want to accept that for example you know
1:47:15what do you do with those verses and I
1:47:17often watch in Arabic these clerics and
1:47:20that's what they say remember I was
1:47:22telling you about um the one guy who was
1:47:23basically saying yeah if you're married
1:47:25to a Christian you can but you have to
1:47:26hate her and yeah lo and behold a lot of
1:47:28the people sitting there were kind of
1:47:30questioning like are you serious and he
1:47:32finally gets frustrated he goes well
1:47:33it's written you know what do you do
1:47:34with the verses that I just quoted
1:47:36including you know you got to hate
1:47:37Abraham and whatnot so the crux of the
1:47:40matter is the religion itself which is
1:47:41so easily identified and clear-cut
1:47:44teaches what we call radical things okay
1:47:47um they're only radical from our
1:47:49perspective subjective perspective
1:47:51they're not radical from a Muslim point
1:47:52of view
1:47:52>> well but that's where that's exactly the
1:47:54point I'm putting to you which is it
1:47:56clearly is radical from the perspective
1:47:57of the rulers of the UAE from the rulers
1:47:59of Saudi.
1:48:00>> Right. Right. Right. It's radical
1:48:01because it's radical to them because
1:48:03they can suffer from it because they're
1:48:05not seen as legitimate Muslim rulers.
1:48:07>> Right.
1:48:07>> And at the same time, they have to pay
1:48:09lip service to Islam. So they're not, in
1:48:11other words, a lot of these rulers are
1:48:13just not Muslim at heart obviously. And
1:48:15they're but they govern Muslims. So they
1:48:17want to create the most, you know, on
1:48:19the one hand, they want to be legitimate
1:48:21and show their legitimacy as, hey, I can
1:48:24be your ruler. uh and which means they
1:48:26have to kind of let you know let the pot
1:48:28kind of steam come out a little bit so
1:48:30the Muslims can feel this is actual
1:48:32Islam and on the other hand they got to
1:48:34kind of clamp down on on certain
1:48:35teachings. So that's why a lot of these
1:48:38rulers um are often just you know
1:48:41denounced as you know puppets of the
1:48:42west and not true Muslims including the
1:48:44ones in Saudi Arabia who are actually
1:48:46nominal Wahhabis which is as radical as
1:48:48you can get and in fact they do
1:48:50disseminate and and and play a huge role
1:48:52in sort of uh disseminating jihadist
1:48:55literature and they're still hated and
1:48:57seen as pawns of the West.
1:48:59>> Roman, I'm going to ask a provocative
1:49:01question but I think it's an important
1:49:03one. Do you think the religion of Islam
1:49:06is compatible with the West?
1:49:08>> No, it's not. And if you mean by the
1:49:11West, the sort of secular liberal west,
1:49:13it's certainly not. If the West believes
1:49:16in freedom of religion and uh gender
1:49:19equality and everything that the West,
1:49:21you know, prizes, well, in Islam, it's
1:49:23not. It's not that there's a radical
1:49:25interpretation. Honestly, it's not. Like
1:49:27I told you, that's the observant
1:49:29interpretation. Um, which is that. So,
1:49:31for example, um you have to okay, you
1:49:34have to hate the non-Muslim.
1:49:37Is that something that you know if
1:49:38you're living in a liberal western
1:49:40secular society, you really want a group
1:49:42of people who are bound to feel that way
1:49:44towards you? How's that going to work
1:49:46out? Oh, I know how it works out. Just
1:49:48look at the UK, right? Um so there's
1:49:50there are builtin teachings in Islam
1:49:54inherently. Not a lot. I'm not saying
1:49:55the whole religion. There's a lot of it
1:49:57that's actually neutral. Maybe some of
1:49:59it that's admirable, but there aren't
1:50:01just enough that bring it at odds with
1:50:04the things that the west actually
1:50:06prizes. Okay. Um
1:50:09the okay killing blasphemers or you know
1:50:13attacking them. So in the west freedom
1:50:15of expression and art and whatnot and
1:50:17then what was his name? Van Gogh. That
1:50:19guy gets killed right because well in
1:50:22the Muslim world everyone would agree
1:50:23with that and they would pat him on the
1:50:25back because that's what you do. So the
1:50:27religion itself has built-in sort of
1:50:29mechanisms that does make it
1:50:31antithetical to a lot of the things that
1:50:33the west prizes.
1:50:35>> And so I guess the next question is
1:50:38if it's if it's completely antithetical,
1:50:40is it therefore an existential threat to
1:50:43the west?
1:50:44>> Yeah. Again, but again it gets murky
1:50:48when you realize so what are we talking
1:50:49about Islam? You know, I'm almost it's
1:50:51kind of like I'm anthropomorphizing it
1:50:54as if Islam is a man. Islam is made up
1:50:56of Muslims and I already readily agree a
1:50:58lot of Muslims are not real Muslims or
1:51:00not observant Muslims or cultural
1:51:01Muslims or secular Muslims. You have a
1:51:03lot of that. I get that and they uh you
1:51:06know presumably can assimilate and I'm
1:51:08sure a lot of them do.
1:51:09>> But the problem is you have the the
1:51:11teachings exist and though the teachings
1:51:14themselves are the existential threat
1:51:15because there will be people who do
1:51:18adhere to those teachings and once they
1:51:20do they become the bad guys. Okay. Which
1:51:24uh which and nobody wants to see. It's
1:51:25funny. Every time I re I look at Muslims
1:51:28attacking someone randomly in Europe for
1:51:30example and all of a sudden it's
1:51:31dismissed as oh he had mental problems.
1:51:33Oh, he had psychological issues. No, he
1:51:35was actually I mean that's how we see
1:51:37it, but no, he was actually following a
1:51:39directive and something that breeds a
1:51:41certain contempt and hatred for
1:51:43precisely the kind of person he
1:51:44attacked. Okay. So again, I'm not trying
1:51:47to say that would be scaremongering if I
1:51:49was sitting here to tell you every
1:51:50single Muslim wants to kill you and be
1:51:52No, they don't. I get that. You know how
1:51:55many time you know how many Muslims that
1:51:57you can look at today and you might be
1:51:59like, "Oh, is this guy dangerous?" And
1:52:00then tomorrow that guy converts to
1:52:02Christianity, but for 10 years and I've
1:52:04known them. This guy has been conflicted
1:52:06and and for those 10 years he was not
1:52:08even a Muslim but and he was almost a
1:52:10Christian. So my point is you don't
1:52:11know. There's a lot of these people.
1:52:13There's so much gray and a lot of them
1:52:15are not a threat. A lot of them are
1:52:17great people. Okay, but again, you know,
1:52:19it's how do you differentiate and how do
1:52:21you know and uh and this is why, you
1:52:24know, it's it's nice and it's good for
1:52:26the west to not discriminate. Okay. But
1:52:27on the other hand, by not discriminating
1:52:30or just being intelligent, we're going
1:52:32back to the analogy of, you know, 100 um
1:52:34you know, candies and one even is
1:52:36poisonous and you know it is and you so
1:52:38okay the 99 didn't cause the problem,
1:52:40but the one will and that's why you
1:52:42continuously have the attacks that you
1:52:44continue having because in as much as
1:52:46you keep taking these numbers, there's a
1:52:47percentage that's going to come with the
1:52:49violence and those things that are
1:52:51antithetical to Western culture.
1:52:53>> So that being the case, the UK is in the
1:52:55situation it's in. If you were advising
1:52:58the UK on this particular issue, what
1:53:00policies would you put in place? What
1:53:02advice would you give the government?
1:53:04>> Yeah. Well, that's not that easy
1:53:05because, you know, the the UK has really
1:53:07dug itself deep already. It's one thing
1:53:08to say, hey, we don't want to bring in
1:53:10too many Muslims, okay, like these other
1:53:12countries we were mentioning. But when
1:53:14you already have what is it you said 4
1:53:15million?
1:53:16>> Mhm.
1:53:16>> Um,
1:53:18you know, it's uh well, first of all,
1:53:19anyone who's illegal, I would say, has
1:53:21to go immediately. I mean, if you're
1:53:24there illegally by no more coming in,
1:53:27um, I would I don't know how if they do
1:53:29this, but I would really be monitoring
1:53:31uh mosques and the Islamic kind of uh
1:53:34programming and what Muslims are being
1:53:36exposed to, including on the internet,
1:53:38which I'm sure is not so easy. So, and
1:53:40this is, you know, and it's and you at
1:53:42one point you start wondering, is it
1:53:43worth all this? Like, what does a
1:53:45western nation get from having to live
1:53:47constantly on its toes um just to be
1:53:50able to live side by side with Muslims?
1:53:52But I guess again in this case I get it
1:53:54because they're already there, right? Um
1:53:56but I would have no I would have no
1:53:58compunction or sympathy for any sort of
1:54:00radical preaching. I mean I see in the
1:54:03UK radical Muslims screaming, you know,
1:54:05like actual Islamic jihadist stuff
1:54:08>> and they don't get in trouble. But then
1:54:09when a a British person fights back,
1:54:12they get arrested. Okay. So this is what
1:54:14I'm telling you. This is the real
1:54:15problem right now. And you know, so when
1:54:17you tell me you what advice I could
1:54:18give, how about start off by um just
1:54:21being objective and without this
1:54:23two-tier system where you're actually
1:54:24oppressing the natives and empowering
1:54:27those who are actually, you know,
1:54:29pushing for this sort of thing, the
1:54:30jihadist mentality.
1:54:31>> Would you would you do more hardline
1:54:33approaches? For instance, something like
1:54:35banning halal, banning uh facial
1:54:39coverings, banning burgers, et the
1:54:41facial covering is there's that's a
1:54:43security reason. In fact, in some in
1:54:45Muslim countries, it's sometimes the
1:54:47case women can't wear the hijab because
1:54:49it's sometimes you get a terrorist.
1:54:50>> Like I said, in Isbekistan, you can't
1:54:52wear you can't wear full face cover.
1:54:54>> Yeah. So that Yeah, for sure. There's no
1:54:56problem with that. Um
1:54:59and and you know, if there's a way to
1:55:01stop the sort of de ghettoize them so
1:55:04they they do possibly assimilate instead
1:55:06of always kind of living closely and is
1:55:08like I said, a small rebot or Islamic
1:55:11fortification. Um, it's not very easy. I
1:55:14mean, I think and especially for
1:55:16especially for the mentality that
1:55:18prevails right now in the UK and its
1:55:20leadership, like I said, they you're
1:55:22asking me, let's say this is neutral,
1:55:24you're asking me the measures they can
1:55:25take. They're still here, you know,
1:55:27where they're attacking their own and
1:55:29you can't, what country tells its
1:55:31citizens you can't, you know, wave your
1:55:32flag. I mean, you know, this is one of
1:55:34the things that I often point out. If
1:55:36you want to know how insane it is in
1:55:38Europe, always look at by analogy other
1:55:41non-western regions. And guess what? You
1:55:43know, like I I I made this argument
1:55:45recently, you know, I don't know if you
1:55:46use the same ter terminology, but in
1:55:48America, the ultright is like the bad
1:55:50guy. This is like the racist xenophobe,
1:55:53you know, crazy patriot. And to me, the
1:55:55ultraight is actually how everyone
1:55:58outside the west thinks and acts. Okay?
1:56:00They're all if you go to any country
1:56:02non-western subsaharan, Asian, Latin
1:56:05American, what we call ultraite,
1:56:07traditional, you like your country, you
1:56:09like your flag, that's what they're
1:56:11that's normative there. And the ones who
1:56:13support it most are their own
1:56:14governments. That's what they want you
1:56:16to be like. It's very weird to go to a
1:56:18nation like the UK where, oh, you're the
1:56:20bad guy because you're waving your
1:56:22nation's flag, but then these people are
1:56:25coming in waving their flags, including
1:56:27ISIS, and that's okay. I mean, so UK,
1:56:30the UK's problems, man, they're just uh
1:56:33kind of mind-boggling. I don't even know
1:56:34where to begin. It's just uh it's really
1:56:36worked.
1:56:38>> Raymond, on that happy note, um we're
1:56:40going to ask you our final question.
1:56:41Before that, tell us about your latest
1:56:42book.
1:56:43>> Yeah, The Two Swords of Christ. Thanks.
1:56:45Um the subtitle is The Five Centuries of
1:56:47War between Islam and the Warrior Monks
1:56:48of Christendom, which comes out, it can
1:56:49be pre pre-ordered now. Comes out later
1:56:52in November. So, this book is basically
1:56:55a third of it's my trilogy. have been
1:56:56writing books that deal with the history
1:56:58of Christendom and Islam. And the first
1:57:00one was sword and scimitar which looked
1:57:01at the general kind of what we talked
1:57:03about. The second one was defenders of
1:57:05the west which looked at men. So the
1:57:07first one looks at decisive battles
1:57:09between Islam and the in the west like
1:57:10yarmmuk and manzer which I mentioned.
1:57:13The other one looks at decisive
1:57:14Christian men. And a lot of people like
1:57:16that second book because it's uh they're
1:57:18just shocked that western Christians can
1:57:20act this way. But this book is even more
1:57:22so because this this book deals with the
1:57:24warrior monks, the Templars and the
1:57:26hospitalers and uh and and what their
1:57:29rationale was. And I think what people
1:57:31will find interesting is, you know, on
1:57:33the one hand these guys were very
1:57:34militant. On the other hand, they were
1:57:36very Christian, more Christian than your
1:57:38average guy. And to your average
1:57:40Christian today, of course, the two
1:57:41don't mix. You know, there's what I call
1:57:44um doormat Christianity,
1:57:46>> which is what kind of is very prominent
1:57:48in the West. to be a good Christian is
1:57:50essentially to be a doormat. And um it's
1:57:52easy to be a doormat too, you know,
1:57:54non-confrontational. So a lot of people
1:57:56make a virtue of a vice, you know, and
1:57:58they're non-confrontational. They're
1:57:59cowardish, coward, cowardly, and they
1:58:01pat themselves in the back, say, "I'm
1:58:02just being a good Christian." Not so
1:58:05these guys. Okay? So these guys were
1:58:07immensely militant and they really took
1:58:09the war to Islam. And talk about I was I
1:58:12kind of alluded to it earlier when we
1:58:13were talking why the crusades failed
1:58:15because of numbers. It really came down
1:58:17in the end. it was just these guys and
1:58:18these were monks and warrior you know
1:58:20holy warrior monks essentially types and
1:58:23so I think people will be fascinated at
1:58:25their theological underpinnings and one
1:58:27of them which I get into because and
1:58:29that's the title of the books the two
1:58:30swords of Christ um is are you familiar
1:58:33with the verse there's a biblical verse
1:58:35where Jesus tells his disciples so you
1:58:37know sell your cloak and buy a buy a
1:58:39sword and they say look Lord here are
1:58:41two swords and you say that's enough so
1:58:44to your average modern-day Christian
1:58:46that has absolutely no meaning Today it
1:58:47has nothing to do with real swords.
1:58:49Okay. To medieval Christians especially
1:58:51and a lot of premodern Christians in
1:58:53general, what that verse meant is you
1:58:56have two we're facing two battles as
1:58:58Christians. One against spiritual forces
1:59:00and you need a spiritual sword and one
1:59:02against physical secular forces and you
1:59:04need a physical secular sword. So that
1:59:06was understood by a lot of um
1:59:08theologians and that's what gave rise to
1:59:10these sorts of military orders and it
1:59:12was of course also fused in the concept
1:59:13of just war. Uh but anyway, yeah, I
1:59:16think it's going to be an interesting
1:59:17book to a lot of people and it's going
1:59:18to be eye openening at how Christians
1:59:21used to behave in the face of these
1:59:23sorts of existential threats.
1:59:25>> Well, with that, we're about to go to uh
1:59:27triggerpod.co.uk where our audience get
1:59:29to ask you their questions. But before
1:59:31we do, what's the one thing we're not
1:59:32talking about that we should be?
1:59:34>> Before Raymond answers a final question,
1:59:36at the end of the interview, make sure
1:59:38to head over to our Substack. The link
1:59:40is in the description where you'll be
1:59:42able to see this. Is there a sect of
1:59:44Islam that is nonviolent, does not
1:59:46believe in jihad, and does not want
1:59:48violence and to topple Western powers?
1:59:51>> What I don't see very much of is
1:59:53Christians in the West being concerned
1:59:55about the mass slaughter of Christians
1:59:57in Africa and the Middle East.
2:00:01Do you have an explanation of why that's
2:00:02happening and not happening?
2:00:05>> What's the one thing we're not talking
2:00:06about that we should be?
2:00:08>> Oh boy. Um, you know, I think I' I've
2:00:11we've talked about a lot of things, but
2:00:13it's it's something I brought up which I
2:00:14think is the most important thing never
2:00:16to forget, which is again, you know,
2:00:18don't lose sight of the real source of
2:00:19the problem. And in the the Islam
2:00:22problem in the West, it's not the
2:00:23Muslims, okay? It's the policies. It's
2:00:26the policies that actually enable um
2:00:29empower uh Muslims and bring them in by
2:00:32the millions. Okay? And that's actually
2:00:34supposedly something you can do about
2:00:36assuming you know you live under some
2:00:38sort of democratic rule or you have
2:00:40representatives that that you supposedly
2:00:42elected. Um okay and if if it doesn't
2:00:45work then there's something else going
2:00:47on and the problem um needs to really be
2:00:50be looked at a little closer. But the
2:00:52point is a lot you know this isn't about
2:00:54hating Muslims. That's not what I'm
2:00:56trying to say. I'm trying to say
2:00:57historically there was always a clash.
2:00:59You know, the people that I'm talking
2:01:00about in this book or just historically,
2:01:02if they if they thought their
2:01:04descendants are bringing Islam in, they
2:01:06just I mean, I'm sure they're spinning
2:01:08in their grave right now because it just
2:01:09wouldn't make any sense to them. Okay.
2:01:11So, a lot of it a lot of the problems
2:01:13are just self-made by the West. Okay.
2:01:16Islam is weak. As you pointed out
2:01:18earlier, Islam is inherently weak right
2:01:20now physically, economically,
2:01:21militarily. It can't do what it does.
2:01:24But why is it doing it? It's because
2:01:26western elements are making it is are
2:01:28empowering and allowing it. So like I
2:01:30said, I like to get to the heart of
2:01:32matters and in this current case it's
2:01:34not Islam itself, it's um the west.
2:01:37>> Head on over to Substack where Raymond's
2:01:39going to answer your questions.
2:01:42[music]
2:01:42>> There seems to be a belief particularly
2:01:44in leftwing circles that Islam spread to
2:01:46billions of people with flowers and
2:01:48chocolate. My question is in Islamic
2:01:50schools and [music] universities, is
2:01:52this how Muslims understand their own
2:01:53history?

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