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The Psychology Of Seduction: How To Become Impossible To Ignore | Robert Greene | FO565 Raj Shamani — Transcript

by Raj Shamani · 17,388 words · 2,614 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00how to seduce anyone.
0:01>> People who are insecure have a very hard
0:04time seducing. So the first quality in
0:07all these form of seductions is to try
0:09and get rid of your insecurities. And
0:11the way you get rid of your insecurities
0:13is when you're with people, you're not
0:15thinking about yourself. You're focused
0:18on them. What they want, what they need,
0:20what their weaknesses are. You give that
0:22to people, the world will [music] open
0:24up to you. Tell me, what is the most
0:27seductive quality somebody can possess?
0:29You have to have some skills with words
0:31and language. Women are very susceptible
0:35to words. [music]
0:36When they hear somebody talking well,
0:38who's funny, who's witty, who's good
0:40with [music] compliments, etc., it has a
0:42very seductive power.
0:44>> What is the difference between people
0:45who are remembered and people who get
0:48forgotten in a day?
0:49>> The game is to make [music] people think
0:51about you when you are not there in
0:53front of them. So, if there's a woman
0:55and you're out on a date and [music] she
0:57goes home and she's thinking about you,
0:59you've seduced her. So, you need to
1:01create a little bit [music] of mystery
1:03about yourself.
1:04>> Robert Green, the author of the 48 laws
1:07of power, the art of seduction and
1:09mastery. And in this episode, we get
1:11inside his mind and uncover the rules of
1:13power, influence, and human behavior
1:16that could make you the most powerful
1:18person in the [music] room. Human desire
1:22is very much viral. [music] We want what
1:25other people have. You never had a
1:27girlfriend. Women really aren't
1:29interested in you. But if they see you
1:31surrounded by [music] other people who
1:33are attractive, it makes them interested
1:35in you as well.
1:36>> What are small [music] behaviors that
1:39people are unconsciously doing and it's
1:41making them appear weak.
1:42>> People who talk a lot, who are always
1:44blathering about what [music] they
1:46think, about their emotion, that makes
1:48you look weak. I noticed in meetings
1:50[music] the person who talks less but
1:53has a commanding presence to him or her
1:55is kind of [music] emanates power and
1:58then when they do say something
1:59everyone's listening what did they
2:01[music] say? So talking all of the time
2:03makes you feel weak. How do you become
2:05the most powerful person in the room?
2:08>> Well um how do you not feel powerless
2:10and insecure in front of a very powerful
2:12person?
2:13>> I tell you and I know this because I
2:15have to interact sometimes [music] with
2:16powerful people. You said we all are
2:19attracted towards dark traits. What are
2:22these [music] dark traits?
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2:47follow us and listen to the new episodes
2:49as well. Now let's get into the episode.
2:56One of the first things in my head comes
2:59is
3:01how do I become the most attractive
3:03person in the room so that I start
3:04attracting opportunities. Right? And I
3:06often ask myself the same question which
3:09you answered in your books but I want to
3:11ask you again. How to seduce anyone?
3:15[laughter]
3:18>> Well um is it seducing a woman? Is it
3:22seducing an audience? Is it seducing the
3:25world? Is it s What is it you're What
3:28kind of seduction are you?
3:29>> Let's go one by one. All three.
3:30[laughter]
3:33>> Seduction is a psychological process.
3:35It's not a physical thing. It's pure
3:38psychology. And one thing we can say for
3:41sure that people who are insecure
3:45do not have a very hard time seducing.
3:48It makes if you've ever had this
3:50experience where you're around somebody
3:53who you can sense is very insecure. It
3:56makes you a bit insecure, it makes you
3:58feel odd, right?
4:00But if you're around somebody who's
4:02confident, who feels secure, who feels
4:05powerful and accomplish things, yes, you
4:07might be a little bit intimidated, but
4:09it also is very seductive to be around
4:12that person. You could kind of catch
4:14some of their confidence. So the first
4:17quality in all these form of seductions
4:20is to try and get rid of your
4:22insecurities.
4:23And the way you get rid of your
4:25insecurities is when you're with people,
4:29you're not thinking about yourself.
4:31You're focused on them, right? You get
4:34outside of yourself. People think
4:37seduction is evil. The word is evil, but
4:39it's not. It's a form of therapy and
4:42it's actually a form of being social.
4:44You get outside of all of your problems,
4:46all of your worries, all of your
4:47anxieties, and you focus on the other
4:50person, what they want, what they need,
4:53what their weaknesses are, what they're
4:55not getting from life, and you give that
4:57to them. And so getting outside of
5:00yourself and all of your worries and
5:01concerns, projecting a feeling of
5:04strength and confidence and focusing on
5:07their spirit and getting inside of that
5:10and giving them. Think of how rare it is
5:13in your life or anybody's life that
5:16people recognize you and validate who
5:19you are and understand what your
5:23psychology is and kind of, you know, get
5:26inside your world and are interested in
5:29it and think that there's something
5:31great about you. It hardly ever happens.
5:33True. Because everybody's thinking about
5:35themselves.
5:37>> You give that to people, the world will
5:39open up to you. like so be interested in
5:43the other person and you said find out
5:46what do they need, right? How do I find
5:48out what another person needs in a
5:52social setting?
5:54>> Well, if you're talking about individual
5:55people,
5:56>> yes,
5:57>> um it's you can't do it like in one go.
6:00You you'd have it takes a little bit of
6:02time. We think so much in words and it
6:06we're in our heads a lot. But there's an
6:08animal part of our nature, right? That's
6:11very powerful. If you stop you stop your
6:14thoughts and you stop thinking about
6:17yourself and you absorb yourself in the
6:20energy of the other person, you start
6:23picking up signs and signals that are
6:26nonverbal, that are physical, that come
6:29from who they are.
6:31You say something and their eyes light
6:33up and they get very excited. Ah, you
6:37know that that's something that that
6:39they're missing that they want that they
6:41need that no one's giving them, right?
6:43But you're not going to pick up that
6:45signal if you're thinking about
6:46yourself. Do they like me? Do I look
6:49good? Am I wearing the right clothes?
6:51You won't pick up their signals. So, but
6:54you know, Raj, it's not easy to cut off
6:57internal chatter. That takes practice
7:00listening to people and not having all
7:02that inner chatter and focusing on them
7:04and slowly it'll become a skill that you
7:06can develop. It's the most important
7:08skill that you'll have for success in
7:11life for seduction or for any kind of
7:12power
7:13>> to shut down inner chatter. Is there a
7:16practice or a trick that somebody could
7:18practice in their life on daily basis to
7:20learn that? Well, I tell people um like
7:25[snorts]
7:26go out in the world in in something that
7:28you do every day like you go to the
7:30supermarket every day and you buy uh
7:34whatever it is in here in the States,
7:37you go to the counter and you buy fish
7:39or meat from somebody behind a counter,
7:41right? You see them every day, but
7:44they're not a person to you, right? And
7:46I say, pick somebody out like they're in
7:48your life that you see often but you
7:52never pay any attention to, right? And
7:55try to think of what their world is like
7:58as you talk to them. Like imagine their
8:02apartment and where they live and their
8:05day-to-day life and what their family is
8:09like and what their childhood must have
8:11been like. Of course, you're not going
8:13to figure it out. It's not going to be
8:14accurate.
8:16But it's fun. We don't do things unless
8:19they're fun, right?
8:21>> Yeah.
8:22>> So going out in the world and thinking
8:24it's like a movie and I'm going to
8:26figure out what these characters are
8:27like, what their world is like is
8:30actually entertaining.
8:32And I because I've been doing it my
8:35whole life and maybe it is who I am. I'm
8:38always doing that with other people.
8:40Tell me what is the most seductive
8:44quality somebody can possess?
8:46>> Well, I'll tell you. Uh, I lived in
8:49Paris many years ago, well before you
8:51were born. Uh, I was like 21 years old.
8:55>> I was working in a hotel. Uh, I was a
8:58receptionist in a hotel. And there was
9:01this man who was from Brazil, very tall,
9:04very handsome. He was the most brilliant
9:07seducer I've ever seen. Right. And I
9:12remember once he had all these women
9:14were attracted to him. He he was so easy
9:17for him to seduce. Um but he never was
9:20faithful, right? He was always cheating
9:23on whatever who it was.
9:26I was walking down the street with him
9:29and this woman came up to him very angry
9:33because she saw he was with another
9:35woman and that implying that he was
9:37cheating on her. She got she got really
9:40angry. She started yelling and he stood
9:43there and he was so calm and he didn't
9:46get angry and he didn't get apologizing.
9:50So, oh, I'm so sorry. He just stood
9:52there and he was he was understanding.
9:55He was listening to her and he had this
9:58kind of calmness and this coolness about
10:00him and he he expressed regret for this
10:04etc. But he wasn't weak and muing and
10:07apologetic, right? And she just melted.
10:11She just melted. She she couldn't resist
10:13it. So the point I'm saying is the lack
10:17of defensiveness in a person is
10:20incredibly seductive, right? So most
10:25people that you meet are all defensive
10:27and closed and resistant, right? They're
10:30so worried and so trying to protect
10:32themselves, right?
10:34You meet somebody and they don't have
10:36that quality and they it's like almost
10:39like they don't have an ego, right? and
10:41they're not defensive
10:43and they're not resisting you. It draws
10:45the same quality in you as well.
10:49There was an actor in Hollywood named
10:51Errol Flynn who it was like the he was
10:56women just dreamed about him. He was
10:58very handsome. He was just a very
11:00seductive male figure and he was an
11:04incredible seducer. He probably slept
11:07with over 5,000 women and he died when
11:10he was 50 years old because he was an
11:12alcoholic. [gasps] But I found a quote
11:15from a woman. I was trying to figure out
11:17why was he so seductive. And the quote
11:20from this woman was being around him was
11:24like having drunk three martinis.
11:28You just felt so relaxed. He made you
11:31feel so relaxed. He had this animal
11:34presence. He wasn't nervous. He wasn't
11:36defensive. He wasn't all tight.
11:39It just was like drinking an like a
11:41martini. He just made you relax. It's
11:44not an easy quality. A lot of people
11:46don't have it, but it's by far the most
11:48seductive quality you can.
11:50>> So, let's say if there are two people,
11:51right? One
11:54becomes very memorable and seductive in
11:58one room and the other person is also
12:01let's say it's social is great but other
12:03person becomes instantly forgettable.
12:06What is the difference between people
12:07who are remembered and people who get
12:11forgotten in a day?
12:14>> Well um I' I'd go around this question
12:17from a different angle. So, um,
12:21seduction is a game where you're trying
12:23to make the other person think about you
12:26when you're not there, right? So, if
12:29there's a woman and you out on a date
12:32and she goes home and she's thinking
12:34about you, you've seduced her. If she
12:38goes home and she's kind of thinking
12:40about you a little bit, but she's also
12:42thinking about other people, her job,
12:44you haven't really succeeded. So the
12:46game is to make people think about you
12:49when you are not there in front of them.
12:51Right.
12:53So I wrote a whole book about that and
12:55what you need to do.
12:56>> Yeah.
12:56>> But you need to create a little bit of
12:58mystery about yourself.
13:00>> Like you said something that's kind of
13:03provocative that they don't quite
13:05understand and it makes them go home.
13:07They think about you. What did you mean?
13:09You have qualities
13:12that I had a chapter in seduction called
13:14mixed signals. Sending mixed signals.
13:17You appear to be something very strong,
13:20but you send a sign of there's something
13:22else going on inside of you that's quite
13:24different. Right? So, you're a man. You
13:27feel very you come across as very
13:29masculine and strong, but you send a
13:32signal that there's something about you
13:34that's almost feminine where you're you
13:36have you're aesthetic. you're interested
13:38in flowers or whatever. The woman goes
13:41home goes, "Hm, what an interesting
13:43character. I've never met anybody like
13:45that. He's he's very masculine, but he
13:48has this other side to him." You know,
13:50so she's thinking about you.
13:52>> So, if you don't if you're just trying
13:54to be yourself, if you don't understand
13:56the game, if you don't put any effort
13:59into it, people won't remember anything
14:02about you.
14:04They'll only remember you when you're
14:06there in front of them. But when you
14:08leave the room, when they're not there,
14:10forget it. And that's the whole game is
14:12making them think about you when you're
14:14not there.
14:15>> Give me one more example. I love this.
14:17This is how to make people think about
14:20you when you're not in the room.
14:22>> Well, I mean, uh, as I said, these are
14:25all things in the art of seduction. So,
14:28um, when I first met the woman that I'm
14:31with now,
14:34um, was a while ago, right, before I
14:36wrote The Art of Seduction, um,
14:40I we had gone on a date, but nothing
14:44really came of it. Okay? And so, I
14:47didn't know if she was interested in me.
14:50My birthday was coming up and I happened
14:53to have at that time I still do. I had a
14:56lot of female friends who were very
14:58beautiful, right? And I was going to
15:01have a birthday party at this restaurant
15:04and there would be four or five of these
15:06very beautiful women there. I very
15:08clearly invited her to come to this
15:11party afterwards, you know, when we were
15:13having dessert and everything. So she
15:16would see me surrounded by attractive
15:20women who were interested in me, right?
15:23So knowing that somebody that is
15:26attracted to other people is very
15:29seductive, particularly to women who can
15:31be very competitive that way, but it
15:33works with men as well. So the sense
15:37that nobody desires you, that nobody you
15:40you never had a girlfriend, women really
15:42aren't interested in you makes the other
15:45person wonder. But if they see you
15:48surrounded by other people who are
15:50attractive and know that you that there
15:53are other people interested in you, it
15:55makes them interested in you as well.
15:58And then they will go home and they will
16:00think about you because they will be
16:01competitive.
16:03So human desire is very much viral. We
16:08want what other people have. If you pass
16:12by a restaurant,
16:14you you want to have dinner
16:17and it looks good, but there's nobody in
16:19the restaurant. H I don't know. But the
16:23food's good, but you don't want to go in
16:24there. You pass by this other
16:26restaurant, which might have mediocre
16:28food, but it's 20 people are in there.
16:30They're all laughing. They're drinking.
16:31They're having a great time. I'll go in
16:33there, right? Because other people are
16:36enjoying it. And and our desire is
16:38viral. It's contagious.
16:41So if you make other people feel like
16:43you are desired by others, they will go
16:45home and they will be thinking about you
16:47because they're competitive. They're
16:49going to want to be one of those people
16:50that desire you as well. See, that's
16:52true. But somebody who's not desired at
16:55all, someone who is not in demand is
16:58not, it doesn't look like that man or a
17:00woman is being desired by anyone. How
17:03can they manufacture this? How can they
17:04actually do this? Because their first
17:06problem is that nobody's interested in
17:08them. How can they make other people?
17:10>> You can't make somebody like that into a
17:12great seducer. You have to work at it.
17:15So it's not like it's not like people
17:18are born great at this game, right? The
17:21man I mentioned in Paris, it wasn't
17:23that, okay, he was handsome. I I I grant
17:25you that, but he had been working on it
17:27for a long time. He understood the
17:29psychology of it. So, you have to if you
17:32understand the psychology of it, you're
17:34going to go, "All right, I have to find
17:38people have I have to get people
17:40interested in me, right? I have to get
17:43women looking at me. What is the
17:45qualities that I can have that will do
17:47that?" Right? You have to put some
17:49effort into. You have to work on it.
17:50>> True.
17:51>> So,
17:52nobody is born with, you know, all these
17:56women coming to them and and looking
17:58attractive. You work at it. You I built
18:01those friendships over years because I
18:04happen to like women and I I was a rake
18:06back then. But it took work. It took
18:08effort. It took effort to be desired by
18:11other people, right? You have to have
18:14some skills with words and language.
18:17Women are very susceptible to words.
18:21When they hear somebody talking well,
18:23who's funny, who's witty, who's good
18:26with compliments, etc., it has a very
18:29seductive power.
18:30>> True.
18:31>> Men, their weakness is the visuals, is
18:34the looks, is the physical aspect of the
18:36woman. Right? So, you have to be aware
18:39of the psychology of what's going on and
18:42play to those things and build up those
18:44qualities in yourself. You're not born
18:46that way. I can't take somebody who
18:49feels like they're a loser, that nobody
18:52likes them. I can't instantly turn them
18:54around. They have to work at it, right?
18:57And I've helped people before who've
18:59been in that situation and slowly we
19:02build up confidence. We get rid of the
19:04insecurities.
19:06step by step. If you're that person that
19:08you mention, if you start getting rid of
19:10your insecurities, if you do things that
19:13will make you confident and sometimes
19:15you can fake a little bit of confidence,
19:17you will start attracting interest, you
19:19will start attracting people and then
19:21you will build some momentum and then
19:23the things that I'm talking about about
19:25creating triangles of desire will start
19:28to be powerful and effective. Right.
19:30>> True. True. You know, you you gave an
19:33example of this Brazilian man. You said
19:36that he was unfaithful
19:39[snorts] and yet
19:42women would engage with him, right? Yet
19:45women would will melt in front of him
19:49and we all have seen this, right? The
19:52kind people, the generous, the most
19:53nicest people, they don't end up getting
19:56[laughter] a lot of lot of women, right?
19:59Why do you think like why nice people
20:01don't
20:02>> Well, it's not completely true. Some
20:05nice people can be very seductive, but
20:07if you're too nice, it comes across as
20:10weakness and it comes across as
20:12insecurity.
20:14So, we talked about mixed signals.
20:18You're a genuinely nice person. You
20:20can't help it. That's who you are. But
20:22if you can mix in something that's a
20:24little bit harsh, that doesn't seem
20:27quite so nice, that will have some
20:30seductive power. But, you know, if
20:34you're if you're so if you're so weak
20:37and you're so nice, people will wonder
20:40about you. What's wrong with you? Right?
20:43But so like with with the rake like this
20:46man the Brazilian man women knew that he
20:50was never faithful but it's always in
20:52the back of their mind maybe I will be
20:55the one that will finally make this guy
20:57faithful right that competitive interest
21:01in the other person. Why? Like why the
21:03person who's faithful you don't you're
21:05not attracted to that?
21:08Because
21:10there's a side of people that feels that
21:12there's something weak about you. So if
21:16this man is desired by all these other
21:18women,
21:19well, there must be something very
21:21interesting about him. There must be
21:22something very attractive about him.
21:24There was an English poet named Lord
21:26Byron who was like Eduardo, this
21:29Brazilian man. He was extremely
21:32unfaithful
21:33and there was a reputation that he was
21:37kind of evil, right? Did he actually
21:41sleep with his sister? Did he actually
21:44maybe kill somebody? It made them really
21:47really interested in him. That hard
21:49edge, they're very makes them very
21:51attracted to it. men. If the woman is so
21:55soft and so sentimental and so nice,
21:58something feels wrong about it. But you
22:01give me a woman who's got a little bit
22:03of an edge to it, who maybe isn't so
22:06nice to me, who feels like there is
22:09something slightly dangerous about it,
22:11that is incredibly, incredibly
22:13seductive. that very nice woman. You may
22:16want to marry her and have children with
22:18her, but it's not the same thing as a
22:20seduction, as a woman who's very
22:22seductive. But have you noticed that the
22:26woman that you're describing, u woman
22:28who's nice, she is most trusted, she's
22:33genuinely a good person, often get
22:36played the most.
22:38>> Yeah.
22:40Well, because they're they're very naive
22:43and they're very trusting and their
22:44trustingness makes them open to the
22:47worst kind of man, you know. But also,
22:50I'll make this point.
22:53>> People are secretly drawn to what is
22:57dark and transgressive. So, we all
22:59pretend to be interested in virtue and
23:02being so nice and loving and caring and
23:04doing all the great things that make us
23:06virtuous
23:08>> because that's the culture we live in.
23:10We're social animals. But at the same
23:12time, we're attracted to the dark side,
23:15to what's transgressive, to what has a
23:17little touch of evil to it, right? And
23:21because there's so much pressure in our
23:23world
23:24>> to be so nice all of the time that we
23:27get kind of sick of it, right? And so
23:30the woman who is very nice and sweet and
23:34trusting secretly she is drawn to the
23:38rake, to the rebel, to the man who's
23:40going to hurt her. She doesn't want to
23:42be hurt, don't get me wrong, but she's
23:45secretly drawn to that man who is not
23:48like her at all. Right?
23:50>> [snorts]
23:50>> Then
23:52is like being good or like being a good
23:56person a big disadvantage in today's
23:58world?
23:59>> No. I mean uh it depends on how you play
24:02it. I mean
24:04>> see because you said a good naive
24:06[clears throat] woman gets played. A
24:08good man doesn't usually end up getting
24:10a lot of attraction. So technically a
24:13good being a good person it looks like a
24:15disadvantage to me.
24:17No, I would never I would never say
24:19that. We're talking about seduction in
24:22the realm of seduction. But in the world
24:25when it's like politics or it's dealing
24:27with your family or dealing with
24:29friends, I I would never say that being
24:32a bad person or being mean to people is
24:35good. I I I I don't like that quality in
24:38people. But when it comes to love and
24:40seduction and sex and the physicality,
24:43an edge, all I'm talking about is you
24:45have an edge,
24:47>> right? If you're just all soft and
24:50cuddly and you have no edge, that isn't
24:53a seductive quality because we live in a
24:57culture and a time where it's kind of
25:00woke and people are supposed to appear
25:01virtuous and good. A lot of people who
25:04appear nice and virtuous aren't inside
25:07don't have that quality. They're
25:09actually not like that. They're covering
25:11up something else going on inside of
25:14them.
25:14>> Yeah.
25:14>> So, the real quality is is much
25:17different. When I worked in Hollywood,
25:21there were it's a world where everyone's
25:23supposed to be so liberal, so nice, so
25:25wonderful, so woke. But they're not like
25:28that at all. you close the door, they're
25:30yelling at their secretary, they're
25:32screwing people around, they're being
25:33manipulative, but nobody ever sees that.
25:36So, there are a lot of people who are
25:38fake with their virtue, you know. Do you
25:41feel and that that's something that I
25:43think and that's my belief based on what
25:45we just spoke about. I feel being little
25:49evil and playing these games or
25:50manipulating
25:52is a leverage in environments where
25:55there's anonymity. And what I mean by
25:58that is when you're in a big city, when
26:01you meet new people every day, when
26:02you're on dating apps, when you're just
26:05like there's any number of people and
26:08you don't have to meet them again and
26:09again, probably manipulation and evil
26:12games takes you a little further and
26:14makes people more attractive towards
26:16you. But when you're in an environment
26:19where there's lot of social and
26:21community around you where you have to
26:22see the same person again and again and
26:24again then their manipulation usually
26:27becomes a disadvantage because the word
26:30travels all around and people know you
26:33and once they know that you're a liar
26:35you're manipulative your chances of
26:37succeeding in that small environment
26:39actually reduces.
26:40>> I don't disagree with you but there's
26:43there's um it's it's a subtle game. It's
26:46not like just black and white. So let's
26:49say you you enter an office and you have
26:52a job and there are 40 people there,
26:54right? That's a pretty small limited
26:57community. Okay?
26:58>> And inevitably in an environment of 40
27:01people, there will be one or two
27:04manipulators,
27:06power players, people who understand the
27:0848 laws of power but have never read the
27:10book, right?
27:12And you are all trusting and naive and
27:15good, right? And they use you and they
27:18manipulate you and they play games with
27:20you and you're hurt and you get
27:22emotional and you get upset and this
27:24makes you weaker and it makes it harder
27:25to get in life and you go home and you
27:28carry it home with you and then you quit
27:31and then and then it it has like
27:33cascading effects on you
27:34psychologically.
27:36So, what I'm telling people in the 48
27:38laws of power and even in the art of
27:40seduction is don't be so damn naive. I
27:44don't want you to go out there and be
27:46manipulative.
27:47>> I'm telling you, be aware of these games
27:50that are being played and don't be so
27:52naive. So, law number four, always say
27:57less than necessary. It's not really
28:00manipulative or evil. It just means
28:04don't be talking so much. Control you
28:07what you say a little bit. Be more in
28:09control of yourself, right? Be aware
28:12that other people are looking at you and
28:14judging you. And so that kind of
28:16self-awareness will help you in the
28:18world. You spoke something about weak
28:20like don't be weak in environments.
28:22That's something that you want people to
28:24learn.
28:26What are small behaviors
28:28that people are unconsciously doing and
28:31it's making them appear weak, insecure
28:34and desperate?
28:35>> Always say less than necessary. So
28:40people who talk a lot, right, who can't
28:42control themselves, who are always
28:44blathering about what they think, about
28:46their emotions, about their feelings,
28:50that makes you look weak. You don't
28:52think that. You think, "Wow, I'm just
28:54being honest. I'm being sincere. I'm
28:56just talking about who I am. What's
28:58wrong with that, Robert? Man, can I just
29:00be myself? Well, but we're not. Humans
29:03are animals, too. And we smell that if
29:07you can't control yourself. If you're
29:09always having to talk, then you can't
29:11control other things about yourself. And
29:13that's a sign of weakness. And
29:15inevitably, if you talk and talk and
29:18talk and talk, you're going to say
29:19something stupid. Right.
29:21>> True. If you're able to control
29:23yourself, if you're able to talk, let
29:26the other person do more of the talking.
29:28First of all, that that'll be a
29:29seductive quality. And also, I noticed
29:33in meetings, in business meetings, etc.,
29:36the person who talks less but has a
29:39commanding presence to him or her is
29:43kind of emanates power. Right. Right.
29:47And then when they do say something,
29:50everyone's listening. What did they say?
29:51I mean, I had that experience with 50
29:53Cent when I did the book with him,
29:55right? I was in there on several
29:57meetings. People could not stop looking
30:00at 50 Cent. What's What's going on with
30:02him? Cuz he never said anything. He
30:04never he sit in this very powerful
30:06meeting with millions of dollars at
30:08stake. He would sit there all calm with
30:11this kind of strange smile on his face.
30:14He appeared to be listening, but he
30:15never said anything. What's going on
30:17with 50? What's he thinking? It was so
30:20powerful, right? So talking all of the
30:23time makes you feel weak. Makes you look
30:25weak. Trying to please too many people
30:29makes you look weak. Sometimes it can
30:32make you look weak. The people pleaser.
30:35Sometimes you think, well, that's a
30:37great quality. You're always trying to
30:38please people and get them to like you.
30:40Okay. But it doesn't feel like sometimes
30:42it doesn't come from a position of
30:44actually comes from insecurity, right?
30:48you're you're defensive. You're worried
30:49that people might hurt you, so you're
30:51always trying to please them. That makes
30:53you look weak. Some of these qualities
30:55you having demonstrating that you have
30:58self-control, that you can kind of craft
31:02your your appearances, that you have
31:05this presence is very powerful. But the
31:08feeling that you have somebody has no
31:10control, they're just who they are.
31:12They're just blathering and talking and
31:14trying to please people, it makes you
31:16look weak.
31:18You said people who try to please
31:20people, they they look weak and that
31:24makes you weak, right? And I've also
31:26noticed that
31:28when you're trying too hard to impress,
31:31it makes you less desirable. Why is
31:34that? because you're essentially just
31:37trying to probably do more things which
31:40makes you desirable in front of someone
31:42else
31:44because um it doesn't really feel like
31:47it comes from a place of strength and
31:50security. So if you're if you're a
31:53Buddha, if you're Gandhi, if you're
31:56somebody of that high level,
32:00it's genuine. You're a genuine saintly
32:03person. It's very powerful and it reads
32:06that way. We can smell when when that
32:09desire to impress people and get them to
32:11like you comes from a genuine love of
32:14other people, a genuine concern. We can
32:17feel it. But a lot of times it feels
32:20desperate.
32:21>> It feels like they want you to like them
32:24so that you won't hurt them. And we
32:26smell that kind of weakness. Now, I'll
32:28tell you something, Raj.
32:30I'm normally, I think, a fair a pretty
32:34nice person, right? I came from the side
32:37that's more naive. I have a bit of
32:39weakness to myself.
32:42I've learned over the years that playing
32:45up the niceness
32:48and you know going along with people
32:51being interested in them can work if I
32:55demonstrate there are limits and there
32:57are boundaries and you do something to
32:59me and I'm going to mess with you. You
33:02can't go that far with me. I'm nice. I'm
33:05gentle. I like what you say. I'm
33:08interested. Then you start taking
33:09advantage of me. I'm gonna put the
33:11hammer on your head in an instant. I'm
33:13going to show you the limits and the
33:15boundaries and then my genuinely nice
33:19nature which I do have works for me.
33:22>> Right. But I have limits and I there are
33:26people out there who will attest to how
33:28I can be when you test those limits.
33:30>> In middle you said we all are
33:35unconsciously
33:37attracted towards dark traits. attracted
33:40towards evil traits. What are these dark
33:43traits that people are attracted
33:46towards?
33:48>> Well, first of all, you have to
33:50understand
33:52the the dark side of of of everybody,
33:55right? So,
33:59uh when you were a child, you were just
34:02a complete individual. You weren't yet
34:04socialized. You would maybe beat up your
34:07sister. You would hit your sister. You
34:09would steal from her. You would do
34:11things. But you would also be sweet and
34:13nice. And then slowly you become
34:16socialized. Your parents tell you,
34:18"Don't do that, Raj. Don't hit yourself.
34:20Be nice to her." Your teachers are doing
34:22that on and on. And that kind of human
34:25quality that we all possess, that kind
34:28of animal energy that's just explosive.
34:31It gets pressed down further and further
34:33and further and repressed. Okay? And we
34:36suffer from that because we're not
34:38complete human beings anymore. A big
34:41part of ourselves has been cut off from
34:43us. Something that was in our childlike
34:46nature.
34:47Okay. So when we see people who give out
34:52some of that energy from childhood, it
34:56seems very authentic to us. It seems
34:58very real and we're attracted to people
35:00like that. If you look at entertainment
35:05in movies and television shows, it's the
35:08dark characters. It's the evil ones.
35:10It's the Machavelians that were
35:12interested, that we're excited in it,
35:14that make us want to watch that movie,
35:16makes us want to know what's going to
35:18happen. The villains. If there were no
35:20villains in this world, there'd be no
35:22drama. There'd be no entertainment. We
35:24are drawn to that secretly. We're drawn
35:26to those types of people because it's a
35:29part of ourselves that we've had to cut
35:31off and repress. Now, I'm not telling
35:35you to go out there and be evil and be
35:38dark and steal and rob and cheat and
35:41kill. I want you to take that dark
35:43energy that you have that we all have
35:46and channel it into something productive
35:48and make it work. So I took all of my
35:52dark
35:54evil Machavelian energy which I've had
35:57since I was a child and I put it into
35:59the 48 laws of power which has had some
36:03success and has helped a lot of people.
36:06>> Tell me top three dark traits which
36:09people are really attracted to.
36:13Well, I know for instance, um there's an
36:17athlete um that I admired very much,
36:20Kobe Bryant, basketball player.
36:22>> Love him.
36:23>> Okay. He was my idol. He's he's the
36:25greatest.
36:27>> Kobe had a lot of dark energy to him and
36:29he talked about it a lot.
36:32>> And when he was young, it could get him
36:34in trouble. And I remember when he first
36:37got on the Lakers, there was something
36:38about him that wasn't mixing well with
36:40the team. He was so competitive, so
36:44ambitious. He was just going to he would
36:46do anything to get an edge on you,
36:49right? And Michael Jordan was a bit like
36:51that as well. Okay. So that sense of
36:56somebody who has that kind of ambition
37:00[clears throat]
37:01but is controlling it and putting it
37:03into the a basketball game is incredibly
37:07powerful and we're attracted to it right
37:11on the court particularly.
37:13Another thing was um so willingness to
37:17do anything for your ambition in a
37:20professional setting that's an
37:22attractive trait. Yes. I I mean Elon
37:25Musk is not somebody that I admire,
37:28but his quality of he'll do anything to
37:32promote himself, anything to promote his
37:35business is what attracts a lot of
37:37energy towards him, hatred and love as
37:40well. Right? Another quality is I talked
37:45in the art of seduction
37:47about charisma, right? And I equate
37:51charisma. A charismatic person is like
37:54they have a light inside of them that
37:56animates them. They're so excited. You
37:58see it in their eyes and their voice.
38:01One of the people I talked about in
38:03there was Malcolm X, a very important
38:06figure here in America. He had a lot of
38:08anger
38:10and and righteous anger because he was a
38:13black person in America who suffered
38:14very deeply. He was a hustler who was
38:17put in prison for many several years. He
38:20was in prison, right? And then he came
38:22out and he saw all the racism in America
38:25and it made him so angry.
38:28But he when he spoke he was one of the
38:31most elegant speakers and you can look
38:33at it on YouTube and watch one of his
38:35talks. He doesn't seem angry. He doesn't
38:39come across yelling and bitter. He
38:41controls it. It's in his word. It's in
38:44his tone. It's in what he says. It's in
38:46his gestures. It's in his body language.
38:49It's very, very powerful. Anger can be
38:53very, we're drawn to it if it's in that
38:57chneled controlled way. Somebody who
38:59yells and screams like a Hitler, like a
39:01Mussolini. Yeah, that could be some
39:05people are drawn to that. But the person
39:07who channels that energy, that anger
39:10into something that's kind of
39:12controlled, right? that's in the
39:14background is very very we're attracted
39:17to that.
39:19So, I took my own anger and I put it in
39:23the 48 Laws of Power. And when you read
39:25it, you're not aware of an author who's
39:28angry, who's been screwed in Hollywood,
39:30but it's in the background.
39:32>> And the kind of darkness in the 48 Laws
39:36of Power is what has made it, I'm
39:38afraid, so successful because people are
39:42secretly drawn to that. There's so many
39:45icky, gooey, sweet, sentimental
39:47self-help books out there that say just
39:50be kind, just be good, just be a team
39:52player, just be cooperative. Yuck.
39:54That's all we've read. We know that the
39:56world isn't like that. But here's a book
39:58that kind of talks about, you know, act
40:01like a friend, be like a spy, crush your
40:04enemy, totally, you know, play a sucker
40:06to catch a sucker. Yeah, man. Yeah, I'm
40:08interested in that. So, I I kind of
40:10accomplished that in in my book itself.
40:13So first was am willingness to do
40:15anything for ambition. Second was anger.
40:19What's the third one? [laughter]
40:24>> Jeez, I don't know. I have to think
40:26about I have to think about people who
40:28have that quality. The other thing is
40:30you're giving me a hard time. That's all
40:32right. I deserve it. The [laughter]
40:33other thing is that you have a past.
40:36>> What do you mean by that?
40:38>> That there's something dark in your past
40:41>> that makes people nice. uh more
40:42attracted towards you.
40:44>> Yeah,
40:44>> I think so too.
40:45>> Yeah.
40:45>> When you show people that you're broken
40:49in a way which and you accept that in a
40:52way that most people will never accept
40:54and you show up out there, it makes you
40:56instantly attractive.
40:57>> Yeah. All right. I got one.
40:59>> Yeah. [laughter]
41:02>> Yes. Because [snorts] in fact I've seen
41:06this is to me personally
41:09people who appear to be having a great
41:15past and they have no darkness and they
41:18it feels like they're too good to be
41:20true. I find it very difficult to trust
41:23them.
41:24>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
41:25>> Like I I want to be careful of them.
41:28>> Yeah. And if somebody comes and tells me
41:31about some broken bad thing which
41:34probably is negative, I still trust them
41:38more than the people who appear to have
41:40no past at all.
41:41>> And also if you've been hurt really
41:44badly and you had a bad childhood or
41:48something, there's some something very
41:49we're drawn to people like that.
41:51>> We're drawn towards broken people.
41:53>> Yes,
41:54>> that is
41:56it's it's true. That is so true.
41:59>> Yeah. I know personally in the realm of
42:03seduction, I'm the woman that has had a
42:06wonderful childhood, everybody treated
42:09her well, who's so happy doesn't
42:11interest me. [laughter]
42:13So I'm particularly vulnerable to that
42:16problem. Yeah.
42:18>> So being broken, being ambition and
42:20anger. Okay. [laughter]
42:25You know one thing which helped me a lot
42:27>> not yeah like I started purposely
42:31following that rule in my life at in the
42:35beginning of my professional career in
42:36last
42:38now I' don't think about these things at
42:40all it was [snorts] law of absence
42:44>> what does that mean
42:45>> that don't be present everywhere
42:48>> what what
42:49>> don't be present everywhere like be
42:51absent
42:51>> oh yeah yeah of like that.
42:54>> Well, you know, I talk about that a lot.
42:56>> That's why that's what like you talked
42:57about it and that's how I got to know
42:59and I started putting that in my life
43:02and I've seen changes. I never used to
43:04believe in that. I used to feel and this
43:06is strictly professional that if I go to
43:10every networking event, every place,
43:13every conference, I'm there, I'm being
43:15seen everywhere, you know, it's going to
43:18help my career. It's usually the
43:20opposite. If I'm seen at very few
43:22places, that has helped me way more than
43:26being seen everywhere. So the law of
43:28absence became a primary rule in my
43:31life. I'm so glad to hear that.
43:32>> Everybody in my team follows it.
43:34>> I'm so glad I'm glad glad you realize
43:36that. Well, I said before that the art
43:39of seduction is maybe people think about
43:41you when you're not there. So if you're
43:44there at every event, every networking
43:46thing, they take you for granted. True,
43:48right? But if you're not there, why
43:50isn't Raj here? What's going on with
43:53him? Does he have better things to do?
43:54Better than being here? They make You're
43:56making them think about you. You're
43:58creating a little bit of mystery so that
44:00when you do show up, it has meaning. It
44:02has import. Yeah. It's an incredibly
44:05important law because
44:07in the age of social media, it almost
44:10seems counterintuitive. I've got to be
44:12seen everywhere. I've got to have
44:14attention. I've got to have as many
44:15followers as possible. If a day goes by
44:18and I haven't posted something, people
44:20aren't thinking about me. They're not
44:22talking about me. But what you don't
44:23realize is that in playing the game that
44:26way, you're just like everybody else.
44:29>> And other people are going to come along
44:31and they're going to attract attention
44:33and people will forget about you because
44:35they take you for granted. You're just
44:37like everybody else. And the game is to
44:40be different, is to be not like anybody
44:42else, to be who you are. So, it's not
44:45like Raz shows up every other time at an
44:48event. We don't know. We can't figure it
44:51out. He's got his own weird pattern.
44:54He's got his own weird things. And so,
44:55with you, you makes you unique. And as
44:58you get older, cuz you're only 29,
45:02you'll see more and more of
45:04possibilities to be different and be
45:06yourself and have power in that. Because
45:09it's hard when you're in your 20s to
45:11think that way because you think I've
45:13got to be like everybody else. I've got
45:16to fit in because that's what it means
45:18like to be young, to be hip, to be
45:20right. But as you get older and you're
45:23confident and you know yourself, you
45:25know the game is actually to not be like
45:27anybody else out there. That's what
45:30really draws attention. And so not
45:32showing up is is part of that game.
45:34Yeah, true. There's nothing wrong
45:37with that kind of manipulation. I mean,
45:40you're going out on a date with a woman
45:42that you're very interested in, right?
45:45So, you dress nicely,
45:48right? You dress nicer than you normally
45:50would. You think more deeply about what
45:52I have to wear and you think, "I want to
45:55take her to a good restaurant." These
45:57are things you wouldn't normally do.
45:58You're playing a game. You're
46:00manipulating her. She thinks you dress
46:02nicely. We don't normally dress that
46:04way. So this that's part of being a
46:07human being. It's part of being a social
46:08animal. I get a little bit angry
46:12sometimes with people who are so worried
46:14about always having to be like an angel
46:17because the people who have to pretend
46:19that they're always an angel are
46:21actually hiding something very deep
46:23inside. You know,
46:25>> we all play games.
46:27>> True. That is so true. Thanks for saying
46:30out loud. [laughter]
46:33because I do sometimes have certain
46:36guilt about certain things. So, thanks
46:38for pointing out that one thing. Okay,
46:41tell me when you you know when you
46:42practice all of these things, right? And
46:45you become this one person who is
46:49who is this you become this person who
46:52everybody's attracted towards, right?
46:55Then a lot of people get addicted to you
46:57and people get obsessed with you. So
47:01when someone is obsessed with someone,
47:05what are they really addicted towards?
47:08Why
47:10like what quality is there that
47:14that is that is making this one person
47:16so addictive that you can't leave that
47:18person? You know that this person is not
47:21right. You know that this person
47:24shows 50% interest, 50% doesn't show
47:26interest.
47:27>> I mean um
47:28>> you get addicted to it. Why?
47:30Well, the most powerful uh you know, in
47:32the art of seduction, I have the nine
47:34types of seducers.
47:36The most powerful of them all is the
47:38coette.
47:40Often traditionally associated with a
47:42woman, but men equally can play the
47:43game.
47:44>> And a coette is someone who blows hot
47:47and cold, right? So, if this, let's just
47:51say it's a woman, but it could be a man.
47:53If this woman were always cold and
47:55indifferent, nobody would be interested
47:58in her. If she was always hot and
48:00exciting and sexy and coming on,
48:03but she's exciting and sexy and
48:06alluring. You go after her, then she
48:09pulls back and she's a little bit cold
48:12and you go, "But she was interested.
48:14What's going on? What's my problem?
48:15She's not interested in you. I've got to
48:17try even harder." It's a very addictive
48:20type of person. It makes you chase them.
48:23So people who withdraw,
48:26who step back and make you chase them
48:29and make you go after them, it becomes a
48:32form of addiction. It becomes a kind of
48:33a hunt. You want to conquer them. You
48:35want to get them. You want to be the
48:37person that has them as well. So that
48:40sense of mystery, of retreat, of a
48:44little bit of absence is what can make
48:46you very addicted to them. Right.
48:48>> True. True. You know, I was reading
48:51>> I mean like I'm sorry, but when you're
48:53addicted, what makes you addicted
48:55>> is withdrawal.
48:57>> You don't have that drug and now you've
48:59got to get it. That's what this person
49:01is doing.
49:02>> True. True. I was reading a little bit
49:05of neuroscience around this. And and I
49:08found out that
49:11your dopamine neurons, they fire up not
49:16because of the reward, it's because of
49:18the anticipation. Ah, very interesting.
49:20>> And they fire up to the maximum not at
49:24100% but at 50%.
49:28So whenever you're chasing something and
49:30there's an anticipation that you're
49:32going to get 50% and 50% you might not
49:34get
49:35>> that is when your dopamine neurons are
49:37fired up to the maximum and that's why
49:40you get addicted to it. That
49:42>> she might say yes, she might say no.
49:45that
49:46like neuro by like
49:50neurologically it's more addictive and
49:52it's it's proven by science. So this
49:55whole anticipation game works way
49:57better. A lot of people think that the
49:59reward makes them addictive but it's
50:02actually the anticipation insight that
50:04maybe I'll get it and maybe I'm not.
50:06>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean um I talked in in the
50:10in the war book um about leaders who are
50:14very good at motivating people
50:17>> and one of the greatest motivators was
50:19Napoleon Bonapart and Napoleon
50:21Bonapart's strategy was mixing harshness
50:24with kindness.
50:26So he he was very interested in his
50:29soldiers. He was very thinking about
50:32them and trying to protect them and
50:34making them comfortable. But when he was
50:37harsh men, he would make a show of it.
50:39And he was the meanest person of all.
50:41And there was no leader who who who
50:44people were more addicted to who were
50:46more in love with than Napoleon
50:48Bonapart. Even though he led millions of
50:50young men to death, literally in the
50:53wars in Europe by mixing that harshness
50:56and kindness, they were constantly
50:59thinking about him. They were so
51:00enraptured by him because those moments
51:03of harshness, whoa, it's like a slap in
51:04the face. That's not who Napoleon is,
51:07but yeah, he is. And it made it made him
51:10the respect levels go way up.
51:13>> 5050% true.
51:14>> And they were anticipating that moments
51:16of harshness as you say
51:18>> when exact. So it's like then the
51:21obsession with the leader or with a
51:24woman or a man
51:25>> is not about the person at all. It's you
51:28are not addicted to that person. you're
51:30actually addicted to the unanswered
51:32question
51:33>> which you feel like only this person can
51:35answer
51:36>> and that's why you get more addicted.
51:38>> That's
51:38>> I mean the only the the flip side of it
51:40is I'm wondering like algorithms are
51:44designed to be incredibly addictive,
51:46>> right?
51:47>> They figured out how to kind of capture
51:50our attention and to return over and
51:53over and over and over again to the same
51:55kinds of posts on social media
51:57>> because it's the same rule, right? You
51:58don't know if the next next reel is
52:00going to be good or bad.
52:01>> Yeah.
52:02>> So in your head you're anticipating next
52:04one's a little better or this little and
52:07>> that's very interesting. You give it
52:09something.
52:09>> Yeah. Right. Like you've just gified the
52:11whole anticipation mechanism in your
52:13head.
52:13>> Well, you know, um all that stuff like
52:15neuroscience that you mentioned, they're
52:17all reading all about that. They know
52:19about all these studies and they're very
52:21clever in getting us hooked and
52:22addicted.
52:23>> True. That they all they do is this. I
52:26mean, is is it's seduction
52:29ultimately the art of discovering
52:33an unmet emotional need of someone else?
52:37So, um
52:39in in in ancient Greek, the uh god of
52:43love was was Cupid or Aeros and he had a
52:47bow and an arrow and what that meant was
52:50he would wound you with the bow and
52:52arrow and in that wound you would fall
52:54in love. Now, because if we feel
52:58completely secure and happy in our
53:00lives, we can't be seduced, right?
53:03There's nothing there's nothing to
53:05seduce. We're already so perfect and
53:06happy.
53:07>> Yeah.
53:08>> But if we're missing something, if we
53:10have a wound from our childhood, most
53:13often something that was hurt us,
53:15something that we never got before, then
53:18we are extremely vulnerable to being
53:20seduced. Right? So if somebody as a
53:25child
53:27um never got enough attention, right,
53:31their mother was was a narcissist,
53:34wasn't really attending to them very
53:36much. They're going to spend their
53:38entire life with that emptiness, that
53:40wound in them that they never got enough
53:43attention, that they never got enough
53:44recognition. When a person comes along
53:48who senses that weakness in them and
53:50gives them that attention, they're just
53:52going to melt, right?
53:54>> Yeah.
53:55>> Everybody has a wound from their
53:57childhood, something missing, right? And
54:01you're playing you you realize what that
54:03is and you're giving it to them in some
54:05form or another. It could be wicked and
54:08manipulative or it can be very caring
54:10and and helpful to the other person. But
54:13if someone is completely happy and has
54:15no wounds, you cannot seduce them.
54:17>> True. It's it's always like that that
54:21your childhood voids end up becoming
54:24your adulthood things that you value the
54:27most in life,
54:28>> right?
54:28>> And then if you can figure out that void
54:30and become a person who provides that,
54:33you usually end up making other person
54:37fall in love with you. Well, you see the
54:39thing is, as I mentioned before,
54:41you're not going to figure out what
54:43people are missing in life if you're
54:45thinking about yourself and your own
54:47wounds. True.
54:48>> So, the problem that people have is
54:52when you're somebody who is wounded from
54:54childhood, like you weren't given
54:56something, it tends to make you very
54:58self-absorbed and it makes you a bad
55:01seducer. So the problem is you have to
55:04overcome that and you have to be
55:06outerdirected and very much looking at
55:08the other person so that you can figure
55:10out what they are missing. Sometimes you
55:13can sense that intuitively the moment
55:15you meet somebody and you don't have to
55:17put it into words. But most often people
55:20aren't realizing it. They're not
55:22conscious. They're not aware because
55:23they're not paying deep attention to the
55:25signs that people give. I tell that if
55:28you um
55:30if you get people to talk about their
55:32childhood,
55:34right, but you're not obvious about it,
55:37you you don't make it look like you're
55:39questioning them for information, but in
55:42the course of a conversation, you get
55:44them to talk about their child, about
55:45their parents, their early years. You're
55:48going to figure out very quickly what
55:49that wound is. They're going to reveal
55:51it. things that excite them, things that
55:53they tell, and then little dark secrets,
55:56little shadows and corners that they
55:59don't really want to talk about, but
56:01kind of come out. Get people to talk
56:03about their childhood, and you'll pretty
56:05quickly figure out what it is that
56:06they're missing.
56:07>> True. True. It's
56:12and
56:14when you figure out something about
56:15other person's childhood and when you're
56:17interested in you're trying to know that
56:20it somehow I don't know why it somehow
56:24gets you closer as well as two people
56:26like when the moment you start talking
56:28about childhood the good bad and ugly
56:31things all together it just brings you
56:33so much closer to the other person.
56:35>> Yeah. Yeah. Right. When people talk
56:37about their childhood, they become like
56:40a child.
56:41>> Yeah.
56:43>> They're reliving experiences
56:45and they have their facially their
56:47smiles, their laughter, uncontrollable
56:49things light up. You can see the four or
56:525year-old in them coming out. It's very
56:55interesting. And people love to talk
56:58about their childhood. Even if you had a
57:00bad childhood, people love to talk about
57:03it. You could think you get them to open
57:05up because they're dying to share their
57:07their little secrets and their and
57:09everything that they suffered and all
57:11their pleasures that they had. It would
57:13work wonders on me as well. I I I have
57:16that weakness too.
57:17>> Yeah. You know, that's one of the
57:19questions, one of my most go-to
57:22questions when I meet someone for the
57:24second or the third time is this that
57:27what do you used to do the most as a
57:29kid? And then it just starts a new segue
57:33into a conversation which can either go
57:35very deep or into so much fun or can
57:38lead to a different adventure that hey I
57:40used to do this and I missed it. Okay,
57:42let's go do that.
57:43>> Right. And then and then brings you out
57:45in you and you want to share your own
57:47experiences and then you can kind of
57:48bond on some level.
57:50>> Yeah. So and then people end up telling
57:51you what they miss today,
57:53>> what they used to get
57:55>> and what is something they continue to
57:56do. So, and then it's a great way to
57:59realize what other person likes or
58:00dislikes.
58:01>> And when people talk about their mother
58:03or their father, that's particularly
58:07powerful. So, for a boy, the
58:10relationship with his mother is
58:13extremely potent. All sorts of things
58:16are constellated around that
58:17relationship.
58:19All the things they never got, all the
58:20things that they love, what they're
58:22attracted to. I don't mean to get
58:24Freudian on you, but your relationship
58:26to your mother is incredibly powerful.
58:29And for women, it's also the mother, but
58:31it's also the father. And their
58:33relationship to the male figure, to that
58:35dark, shadowy father that was looming in
58:38the background carries all sorts of
58:40power in it and reveals all sorts of
58:42weaknesses and things that they're
58:44afraid of and things that they're
58:45attracted to.
58:47>> Yeah, I absolutely agree. That makes me
58:49question,
58:51do you fall in love with another person
58:54or do you fall in love with the fantasy
58:57of who you become with that person?
59:02Well, it depends. It depends on on most
59:04often we fall in love with the fantasy,
59:07right? But sometimes it can happen.
59:10Also,
59:12what often happens is when you first
59:14fall in love, it's the fantasy. And then
59:17if a relationship develops and it's
59:18several years down the road you start
59:21falling in love with the person as they
59:23are the real person with all their
59:24weaknesses and all their foibless and
59:27even the things you don't like about
59:28them and the imperfections in them
59:30become something that you cherish and
59:32you love when you think about them what
59:34you would miss if they were gone. But
59:37originally in the first moments we're
59:39almost always attracted to the fantasy
59:41that that they're somehow fulfilling for
59:43us. Definitely true because I often
59:46believe that
59:51you usually don't fall in with the
59:54person right you fall in love with the
59:57idea of you around them how they make
1:00:00you feel who you become how enlarged you
1:00:03get or how empowered you feel when
1:00:05you're when they are around you because
1:00:08that is a different personality of you
1:00:10which you really get addicted to. So you
1:00:13always keep asking yourself a question,
1:00:16who am I without you and who am I with
1:00:18you? And that usually is the answer to
1:00:22why did you fall in love with someone?
1:00:24Because even if you look at when they
1:00:25when people break up, they usually don't
1:00:29tend to miss the person. They miss the
1:00:32version of themselves which they were
1:00:34with that person. Yeah. And that's what
1:00:36they moan the most because they almost
1:00:38feel like they've lost something a part
1:00:42of personality which they had in
1:00:45themselves when they were with this
1:00:47partner who they absolutely love.
1:00:49>> Then they go in search of someone else
1:00:50who will give that to them
1:00:52>> and it's very difficult to find that.
1:00:54>> Yeah. Yeah. So in in my new book I have
1:00:58a chapter on on it's a book about the
1:01:00sublime and I have a chapter on love
1:01:02sublime
1:01:04and I talk about this story from the
1:01:06middle ages in Europe of Abalard and
1:01:09Eloise one of the greatest love stories
1:01:12in in western culture [snorts] and
1:01:15essentially Abalard was this professor
1:01:19um in Paris who was very logical very
1:01:23could figure things out but he had never
1:01:25had a relationship ship with a woman.
1:01:27And there was this w young woman named
1:01:30Eloise who was the most educated
1:01:33um philosophical and desired woman in
1:01:36all of France. It was very unusual for a
1:01:38woman to be a scholar, but she knew
1:01:40Hebrew and Latin and Greek and she was
1:01:43beautiful.
1:01:45And he sees her one day walking by the
1:01:48river and he tells himself, I'm going to
1:01:50I'm going to be the one that conquers
1:01:52Eloise. I'm going to seduce her. I've
1:01:53had no uh experience with women, but I'm
1:01:57gonna I'm gonna seduce her somehow
1:01:59because it was for his ego. He wanted to
1:02:02show everyone that he was the greatest
1:02:04person of the time. And so he becomes
1:02:06her tutor.
1:02:08And as he starts instructing her, they
1:02:10start becoming physical because he was a
1:02:13very handsome man. And quickly, they're
1:02:15having sex and they're doing all sorts
1:02:16of very naughty things for the time. and
1:02:21he starts falling in love with her and
1:02:23he starts realizing that what he thought
1:02:26she was, the fantasy that he had
1:02:28imagined, isn't the reality. She seems
1:02:31so sweet and innocent, but actually
1:02:34she's got a very dark and devilish side.
1:02:37He's always afraid that they're going to
1:02:38be caught and will ruin his reputation.
1:02:40She doesn't care. She wants to be
1:02:42caught. She they they sneak into
1:02:44churches and they have sex inside the
1:02:46church. She's transgressive. I didn't
1:02:49understand who she was. So, he gets to
1:02:51ignore her more and more and more. And
1:02:54finally, the fantasy that drew her into
1:02:56her turns into the reality that this is
1:02:58a person who is incredibly interesting,
1:03:01incredibly dimensional. And he's
1:03:04completely hooked and he falls deeply
1:03:06deeply in love. and their story and
1:03:08their connection is one of the most
1:03:10fascinating stories because we have the
1:03:12letters between them and the connection
1:03:14that they they develop between each
1:03:17other was just insane and I'm trying to
1:03:20say so we say that love is like we say
1:03:22falling in love right so it's a
1:03:26brilliant metaphor because it is like
1:03:27falling you're falling because you're
1:03:30letting go you're letting go of all of
1:03:32your defenses you're letting go of all
1:03:34your vulnerabilities you're letting go
1:03:36of all that keeps you a separate from
1:03:38other people. You're letting go of your
1:03:40ego. You fall and you fall and you fall
1:03:43and you fall. You let go of all that.
1:03:45You reach a point where there's nothing
1:03:47left and you become like the other
1:03:49person and you have this incredible
1:03:51bond. It's an ideal that is very rarely
1:03:53realized. But to get to your point, what
1:03:56happens is
1:03:58for most people, they start falling and
1:04:01they get afraid. Oh no, I'm going to get
1:04:04hurt.
1:04:05You know, I don't want to give up so
1:04:07much of myself because what if this
1:04:08person suddenly doesn't desire me
1:04:11anymore? I fallen this far. If I fall
1:04:14any further, the pain will be that much
1:04:16greater. I'm going to stop. Right? And
1:04:19then you start you start hearing from
1:04:22friends about, oh, there's somebody. You
1:04:24start thinking, oh, there must be
1:04:25somebody else out there because you're
1:04:27addicted to that sensation of falling
1:04:29and letting go. But you wouldn't let go
1:04:32far enough to fall really in love. So
1:04:35you become addicted to the sensation of
1:04:37falling but you won't let yourself fall
1:04:38far enough for anything meaningful to
1:04:41happen. So you go search for other
1:04:43people and you never quite f you never
1:04:45quite let go enough to ever have that
1:04:47sort of sensation that is the deepest
1:04:51it's almost a religious feeling that a
1:04:53human can have because it's combining
1:04:55the physical and the spiritual.
1:04:58It's the physical powerful connection to
1:05:00a a a woman or a man and it's the
1:05:03spiritual side of getting to understand
1:05:05what makes them a unique individual.
1:05:07They become something that lives inside
1:05:09of you. It is a religious experience. It
1:05:12could be very powerful, but people are
1:05:14too afraid to let go to have that happen
1:05:17because they're so defensive and worried
1:05:19about the pain that might occur. And
1:05:22then
1:05:26[clears throat] do you feel that
1:05:29a lot of people they get this kind of
1:05:33really
1:05:34aggressive love deeply love feeling and
1:05:38even after that then they then they
1:05:41leave like they get really into the
1:05:44relationship. They are in love. They're
1:05:46addicted to it. they're enjoying
1:05:49and then they leave like immediately
1:05:51something goes on and they try to look
1:05:53for that kind of feeling or maybe a
1:05:55deeper feeling with someone else. It's
1:05:57like almost they feel like there's
1:06:00something which is
1:06:01>> better
1:06:02>> better and not ful not completed here.
1:06:06>> Well, the thing is um humans are flawed
1:06:10individuals. They have imperfections.
1:06:13uh they have weaknesses and the longer
1:06:16you're involved with someone, the more
1:06:17you're going to see their flaws and
1:06:19their weaknesses and what makes them a
1:06:21human being. So, you fell in love with
1:06:23the fantasy,
1:06:25the image, which is idealized and kind
1:06:27of perfect. And then you start seeing
1:06:29that they're not really what you thought
1:06:31of. Some of what you now discover is
1:06:33interesting, but some of what you
1:06:34discover is kind of off-putting. You
1:06:37didn't realize they were so needy and so
1:06:39insecure. you didn't realize they needed
1:06:41all these things that you w aren't
1:06:43necessarily prepared to give them. All
1:06:46right, I'm going to cut off that falling
1:06:48process and I'm going to find somebody
1:06:51else who's better, who's more perfect.
1:06:53And we live in a time where the
1:06:56prevailing metaphor is the marketplace.
1:06:59So, it's Tinder, Swipe, ah, somebody
1:07:02better. They're going to be better.
1:07:03They're they look a little better. They
1:07:05look a little bit younger. They're not
1:07:06going to have all of these flaws. But of
1:07:08course, inevitably they do because
1:07:09they're a human being. So you have to
1:07:12get rid of your fantasies and think of I
1:07:16mean having if you value having a
1:07:19relationship over time and I can tell
1:07:21you personally as someone who was a rake
1:07:24in my 20s who had many different women
1:07:27that I was involved in having a
1:07:30relationship over time is incredibly
1:07:32satisfying, incredibly enriching. It's a
1:07:35beautiful wonderful thing, right? But
1:07:38it's not going to happen unless you
1:07:39accept the the very glaring imperfection
1:07:42in the other person and even come to
1:07:45love them and appreciate them and
1:07:47realize that the imperfections is what
1:07:50makes them a human being and what makes
1:07:51them in some ways very attractive to
1:07:53you. But you know, you're always
1:07:56listening. Your friends are always
1:07:57telling you, "Oh, there's somebody else
1:07:58out there. There's something wrong with
1:08:00that person. She's like this. She's like
1:08:02that. You can find somebody better."
1:08:04Right. And then you have this the
1:08:06swiping thing going on. So you're never
1:08:08going to let yourself ever have that
1:08:10sensation of of falling in love with the
1:08:14with the complete human being that they
1:08:17are and the imperfections and all.
1:08:20This gets me to a larger point which you
1:08:22also mentioned in the beginning of the
1:08:24conversation was something missing. Why
1:08:28do young people today feel that there's
1:08:30something missing?
1:08:33This has almost become like a constant
1:08:36emotion or a constant state of living. I
1:08:39feel there's something missing.
1:08:41>> You know, when you're young, it's it's
1:08:43like I had that feeling as well, like
1:08:45something was missing. You have all of
1:08:48this energy, all of this excitement
1:08:50inside you physically. You're so
1:08:53charged. You look good usually, you
1:08:56know, and you want things to happen and
1:09:00the world isn't providing it for you
1:09:02because everything nowadays is so
1:09:03virtual that to have a real experience,
1:09:06to have a real adventure, to be taken
1:09:08outside of yourself, to be taken onto
1:09:11into something so different and
1:09:13exciting, it just never happens anymore.
1:09:16So the feeling like something is
1:09:18missing, a lot of it has to come from
1:09:20our technology and how we're being
1:09:22programmed and we're not experiencing
1:09:24things for ourselves. And so the book
1:09:27that I've just written is about how to
1:09:29get out of that trap and how to live
1:09:32your own life more intensely, more
1:09:34connected to the world, and to have real
1:09:37concrete physical experiences and get
1:09:40outside of your goddamn phone. You know,
1:09:43that's why I think a lot of people are
1:09:44feeling like they're missing. They won't
1:09:46admit it because they're addicted to
1:09:48their phones and to their screens, but
1:09:50they're what they're missing is real
1:09:52life, life intense, life physical, life
1:09:55exciting, direct, immediate, not not
1:09:58mediated by this thing. Tell me how how
1:10:02someone who's socially anxious, is
1:10:05always feeling that something is
1:10:06missing, is trapped in this feeling, can
1:10:09get out of it. Tell me one interesting
1:10:11framework from the book that people can
1:10:14implement today to get out of this whole
1:10:16trap of feeling something missing.
1:10:18>> So first of all,
1:10:20give yourself moments where you put the
1:10:22phone away. Give yourself some moments
1:10:25of silence. Take a walk and not hear
1:10:28anything. Just look around and be
1:10:30observant and get rid of this addiction.
1:10:33Right? I mean, I remember I used to swim
1:10:36all of the time and there would be
1:10:38people who had earphones in their head
1:10:40while they were swimming. I mean, what's
1:10:42wrong with you? Don't you want to be
1:10:45directly related to what's going on to
1:10:47your environment? That's the first
1:10:50thing. It's the most important thing of
1:10:51all is putting your stupid phone away,
1:10:54putting it in a drawer, taking a hike,
1:10:56taking a walk, going on a date, and
1:10:59putting your phone away and talking to
1:11:01the other person. You'll see couples at
1:11:03restaurants and both of them are like
1:11:05this, right? So, you're not living your
1:11:07life. You're living the life that other
1:11:09people are giving to you, that are
1:11:11programming you, that are conditioning
1:11:12you. You're not even aware of it. When I
1:11:16meditate, I become aware of how
1:11:18programmed I am, right? I become aware
1:11:21of these thoughts that I can't get rid
1:11:23of, but that were literally on my phone
1:11:26half hour before when I looked at them.
1:11:28Then I'm aware, god damn it, I am being
1:11:30programmed. I am being conditioned. So
1:11:33the first thing you can do is experience
1:11:35life around you directly. You're young.
1:11:39Your senses are alive and awake and
1:11:41aware. When you get older, your senses
1:11:43become dulled and you're not so active.
1:11:46Okay? But you're not attuned to your
1:11:49body. You're not attuned to yourself.
1:11:51You're not attuned to your own rhythms.
1:11:53Put the phone away and start opening
1:11:55yourself to your environment, to the
1:11:57things around you, to the sounds. I do
1:12:00this exercise when I'm riding my bike up
1:12:03in the hills. I do two things. I absorb
1:12:06my mind completely in the environment in
1:12:09the strange trees and the rock
1:12:11formations and to the sounds. I'm not
1:12:14hearing in my head thoughts. I'm hearing
1:12:17the traffic in the distance. I'm hearing
1:12:19the bird calls. I'm hearing the wind.
1:12:22It's I can't tell you how how wonderful
1:12:25it is. What a wonderful sensation it is.
1:12:28But I won't have it if I'm like like
1:12:30this, you know.
1:12:32>> But do you think that will help people
1:12:35feel better?
1:12:38Because what I'm talking about is this
1:12:41constant constant anxiety that people
1:12:44feel like there's something missing in
1:12:46my life. I'm doing everything right and
1:12:47yet I'm not fulfilled. Do you think just
1:12:50by getting close to nature and leaving
1:12:52technology is going to help them that
1:12:53much?
1:12:54>> Yes. It'll it's not going to solve all
1:12:57of your problems. There's there are
1:12:58other things I can talk about from my
1:13:00book.
1:13:01>> Tell me one of the other things.
1:13:02>> Well, I have a chapter in there about
1:13:05your childhood
1:13:07>> and how when you were a child, the world
1:13:10was so much more intense,
1:13:12right? Um I mean nowadays, I don't know,
1:13:15children with their iPads, it's
1:13:16changing. But for me at least, my
1:13:19childhood was the most intense period of
1:13:21my life. Okay? And I'm telling people
1:13:25what you're what you're nostalgic about
1:13:28isn't being young. What you're nostalgic
1:13:31about is the intensity of your
1:13:33experience. Right? So I try to analyze
1:13:37what made the experience so intense back
1:13:39then.
1:13:41A lot of it was you were curious about
1:13:44the world. So the problem that you have
1:13:48when you get in your 30s and 40s and 50s
1:13:51is you think you know everything.
1:13:53>> Yeah.
1:13:53>> Uh I've read all of these books. I know
1:13:56what the world is. I know what reality
1:13:57is. I know what politically is great and
1:13:59right. And your mind just closes and
1:14:02gets narrower and narrow and narrow on
1:14:04these certain small little set of ideas.
1:14:06You think you know them, right? When you
1:14:09were a child, you had none of that. What
1:14:11is you're you're interested in
1:14:13everything because you're so small and
1:14:15the world is so weird and mysterious.
1:14:16You want to understand
1:14:19well You go back to that go back
1:14:21to that feeling of curiosity.
1:14:24Start playing the exercise. And I do
1:14:26this exercise on myself as I go around
1:14:29and I look at things. I don't know
1:14:32anything. I have no ideas. I don't know
1:14:35what the world is like. I don't know
1:14:37where why there's a sun out there. I
1:14:39don't know where birds come from. I
1:14:41don't know what my body is. I don't know
1:14:43who I am.
1:14:45Give return to a sense of mystery and
1:14:47wonder about the world like you had when
1:14:49you were three or four or 5 years old.
1:14:51You can do that by doing so each chapter
1:14:55in my book ends with literally exercises
1:14:58that you can practice for putting this
1:15:00into your daily life because I don't
1:15:02want this to be some boring academic
1:15:05book about the sublime. It's about how
1:15:07you can have these experiences. So I
1:15:10literally give you exercises to enact
1:15:13each of these things. Right? So
1:15:16interesting. There's something similar
1:15:18which I do in my life but it's
1:15:20accidental. Now I can just draw
1:15:23parallels. I do this to stay
1:15:27purposely and intentionally to stay more
1:15:29curious. If I have to go to one place
1:15:33let's say every day I usually try to
1:15:35take different routes. Uh-huh.
1:15:36>> And if I'm going to any new new place,
1:15:39new city or just a new area, I try to
1:15:43just look around and look at houses,
1:15:45look at trees, look at the shapes of
1:15:46leaves, look at all of these things and
1:15:48make theories in my head. Why is this
1:15:52leave round? Why is this one pointed?
1:15:54>> And then I make make up theories in my
1:15:56head to just amuse myself. And then when
1:15:59I come home then I like whichever thing
1:16:02I'm most curious about then I start uh
1:16:05googling it and try to find out that
1:16:07okay oh this theory no this was
1:16:09completely wrong this is completely
1:16:10right and it just keeps me so much more
1:16:12curious about the world.
1:16:13>> Yeah.
1:16:14>> It helps me
1:16:15>> well I would give you one wrinkle to
1:16:17your exercise. So you take a different
1:16:18route.
1:16:19>> Yeah.
1:16:20>> Try taking the same route but making
1:16:22yourself observe things you had never
1:16:24seen before on that same route. M
1:16:26>> so my bike rides there I have only like
1:16:29five different versions I can go on but
1:16:32I take the same one and I'm always
1:16:34looking for something I had never
1:16:36noticed before
1:16:38some strange tree growing out of the
1:16:40ground. So one thing in the book I say
1:16:44is everything you do is is is
1:16:46languageoriented right? So you don't
1:16:49look at a tree you just think of the
1:16:51word tree.
1:16:52>> Yeah.
1:16:52>> The general category of tree. But look
1:16:55at that strange thing emerging out of
1:16:58the ground that doesn't have a brain but
1:17:01is alive. It has its own strange
1:17:04consciousness cuz trees do have a
1:17:06consciousness.
1:17:07If you came from another planet where
1:17:10there there might be life but there are
1:17:11no trees. What a fascinating weird
1:17:14thing. And each one is different. There
1:17:17may be the same tree but no two trees
1:17:19are the same. Right. So I mean that's
1:17:22part of the exercise that I try to do
1:17:25that.
1:17:25>> Okay.
1:17:26>> Tell me the most interesting chapter
1:17:28from your book which you feel is
1:17:30interesting.
1:17:32Well, the chapter I I'm personally um
1:17:36most drawn to is one about animals. I
1:17:39call it the interecies sublime.
1:17:42And it's
1:17:44so
1:17:46a lot of the book I tell you that your
1:17:48brain is wired a certain way and it
1:17:51makes you think a certain way and you
1:17:53take that for reality.
1:17:56So when I'm meditating, I be try to make
1:17:59myself aware of consciousness itself and
1:18:02how it feels, right? And I tell myself
1:18:06if I came from another planet, my brain
1:18:10would be wired so differently, I
1:18:11wouldn't have this consciousness. So
1:18:13this consciousness has a feeling towards
1:18:16it. It's like it's not inside of my
1:18:19brain. It's not in the world. It's
1:18:20nowhere. It's like the sky. It's empty.
1:18:23What is the feeling of it?
1:18:25But animals
1:18:27have a different kind of consciousness.
1:18:30Their brains are wired differently. Each
1:18:32one has their senses are different. A
1:18:35dog lives in a world of smells.
1:18:38They can tell more things about the
1:18:41world through smells than we can ever do
1:18:43through our intelligence. They're
1:18:45brilliant. They're philosophers, right?
1:18:49Cats live in their own world. Bats live
1:18:51in a world of sound, as dolphins.
1:18:54Spiders are blind, but they live in a
1:18:57world of vibrations. They can feel the
1:18:59world. They understand the world through
1:19:00vibrations. The point of this chapter is
1:19:05you think that you understand the world,
1:19:07but you're just seeing a version of what
1:19:09your brain is telling you because your
1:19:11brain is wired a certain way. Animals
1:19:14are like alien beings on our planet.
1:19:17We're so interested in science fiction
1:19:18in things that don't re that don't exist
1:19:21that are not real, but we're surrounded
1:19:23by aliens, by space aliens, by spiders,
1:19:27by bats, by butterflies, by dogs and
1:19:30cats. They're insane. They're amazing.
1:19:33They evolved over millions and millions
1:19:36of years with their own consciousness.
1:19:38And I give you exercises about how to
1:19:40get outside of your consciousness and
1:19:43enter into their world. And I have
1:19:45examples of people who've done this with
1:19:47octopuses, with whales, with wolves, and
1:19:51with birds.
1:19:53The second chapter that I'm most excited
1:19:54about is one about history. And I'm
1:19:57trying to tell you that [snorts] history
1:19:59is not about like dead facts and things
1:20:03that you read about in a book. People
1:20:06500,000,
1:20:0810,000 years ago were alive just like
1:20:10you. They had emotions. They had
1:20:12feelings. They had sensations. They had
1:20:14dreams.
1:20:16They were alive. Enter their world.
1:20:19Enter into the past as if it's something
1:20:21present. And I give you exercises on
1:20:23that. And I recreate the past for you.
1:20:27So for instance, I take you on a journey
1:20:30through ancient cities. Ancient
1:20:33Babylonia kind of fascinated me. And I
1:20:36literally take you on a walk through the
1:20:38city of ancient Babylonia. And I make
1:20:41you aware
1:20:42that you think New York is beautiful or
1:20:44San Francisco, Los Angeles. These places
1:20:47were unbelievably beautiful in a way we
1:20:51can't even begin to comprehend. These
1:20:5340ft statues, these ziggurats going up
1:20:57into the sky, these buildings that were
1:20:59all reflecting the sunlight in the same
1:21:01way, these gods, the hanging gardens of
1:21:04Babylon. If you were to transport
1:21:07yourself there now and look and look how
1:21:08strange it was,
1:21:11my god, my world is so ugly and drab,
1:21:13but these cities were unbelievable. They
1:21:15were so beautiful, right? And then at
1:21:186:00 at night as the sun goes down in
1:21:20ancient Babylonia, suddenly there's this
1:21:23wild sexual energy where prostitutes,
1:21:26male and female, are filling the streets
1:21:28and everyone's having sex and there
1:21:30these orgies going on even in temples.
1:21:34I just want you to make the past come to
1:21:36life and not see it as something dead.
1:21:37And so those are the two chapters
1:21:40that I love the most from the book. And
1:21:42there are 12 of them. 12 chapters.
1:21:44>> Nice. Give me an exercise. Give me one
1:21:47exercise which helps me become better
1:21:51with the world of history specifically
1:21:53which you just told me.
1:21:54>> Okay. Well, um, one of the exercises I
1:21:56have is [snorts] if you can remember
1:21:59the apartment or the house that you grew
1:22:01up in originally, right? And the objects
1:22:05that were there, right? Okay. So, the
1:22:08exercise is to think about the house and
1:22:12the furniture and the objects that were
1:22:14there. Some of them were there before
1:22:17you were born, right?
1:22:19>> Yeah.
1:22:20>> Okay. And they come from a world that
1:22:21you never lived in.
1:22:23>> True. the early 90s, the 80s, the 70s.
1:22:26Your parents probably even have things
1:22:28from the 60s, things that they inherited
1:22:30from the 50s and 40s. Okay? There are
1:22:33objects in your house that were there
1:22:35before you were born and they have a
1:22:38style to them that's alien to you
1:22:40because it's not the world that you
1:22:42lived in, right? They they inherited
1:22:44they lived before you were born. Do you
1:22:46understand what that means? You were
1:22:48literally not existing. You were dead.
1:22:49You were not a creature. But these
1:22:51objects were there before you. They
1:22:54carry a weird energy and a weird life to
1:22:56them because they're signs of the past
1:22:59and it's sort of a a twilight zone.
1:23:03[snorts] So they're things that you can
1:23:04remember that you lived with, but they
1:23:07come from a period before you were born.
1:23:09And so they have an energy to them. And
1:23:12so I'm trying to show you that the past
1:23:14is like lives in these objects and they
1:23:17have a life of their own. and the life
1:23:20of their own is the past and they're
1:23:22full of this weird energy. You can do
1:23:25that with movies. You can look at movies
1:23:27from the 1980s and you could go, "This
1:23:30is when my parents were young and
1:23:32exciting and happening and they first
1:23:34met and they were like in their 20s,
1:23:36right? And they had these weird fashions
1:23:38and these weird hairstyles and these
1:23:40clothes. You can look at the movie and
1:23:42go, "This was the world before I was
1:23:44born."
1:23:46It's strange yet it's familiar because
1:23:49there was something still like that when
1:23:51when I was living, right? So that I'm
1:23:54trying to give you a sense of what the
1:23:56past was like as something alive, not
1:23:59dead. And it's carried in these objects.
1:24:01And so then when you go to a museum or
1:24:04you see photographs from the past, you
1:24:06can go through the same exercise and see
1:24:08them as something that was once very
1:24:10much alive. So that's one of my
1:24:12exercises.
1:24:13>> And what happens if I do that?
1:24:16Well
1:24:18um
1:24:21first of all you become aware of another
1:24:25world. So you the world now is something
1:24:30that you take for granted that um it it
1:24:34it's like this is how things are right
1:24:38but the world was different 50 years ago
1:24:41was very different had a different
1:24:43energy a different cultural moment a
1:24:45different zitgeist and so by connecting
1:24:48to the past you become more of a human
1:24:52the problem I think that a lot of people
1:24:54have nowadays I read a lot of history.
1:24:56Okay, I'm not good at many things, Raj.
1:24:59I have many weaknesses and flaws, but I
1:25:01read a lot of history. I understand
1:25:04history on a very deep level. And it
1:25:06gives me a perspective on life and the
1:25:09world that is very different if you
1:25:11don't understand history. If you don't
1:25:12understand it, it expands my mind. It
1:25:15makes me aware that there are other ways
1:25:16of thinking, other ways of of behaving
1:25:19in the world, different customs,
1:25:21different cultures.
1:25:22Going through this exercise takes you
1:25:24out of your narrow little moment in the
1:25:26present and makes you aware of the world
1:25:29before you were alive, but that still
1:25:31has some spirit to it. Still has some
1:25:33livveness to it. So, it's opening your
1:25:36mind up to a different world, to a
1:25:37different reality, the world of your
1:25:40parents.
1:25:41>> It's not a world that's dead. It's a
1:25:43world they are alive. They they raised
1:25:45you. And so, you're entering into their
1:25:47world. And you're entering into the
1:25:48world of your grandparents.
1:25:50I don't know if you don't find that
1:25:52exciting. There's nothing I can I can do
1:25:54that's going to make it for to me.
1:25:55>> I find it exciting.
1:25:56>> And into the past is one of the most
1:25:59immense [clears throat] experiences.
1:26:00>> Yeah. I love I love both of these things
1:26:02because
1:26:03>> it gives me a perspective of what my
1:26:06parents or grandparents
1:26:09must be going through or living through.
1:26:12And the second I think that's even more
1:26:15fascinating exercise that I live in some
1:26:18in some civilization which was thousands
1:26:20of years ago and then I try to
1:26:22understand what happens when the sun
1:26:25rises and when the sun sets and I try
1:26:27I'm trying to experience it by just
1:26:31expanding my imagination
1:26:33>> and that helps me a lot and helps me see
1:26:36things today from a different
1:26:37perspective and not just in one
1:26:38perspective.
1:26:39>> Well, that's what the my book is about.
1:26:41But look at the sun someday. Just stare
1:26:44up at the sun and realize
1:26:47that 20,000 years ago, our ancestors
1:26:50back in the Paleolithic era were looking
1:26:52at the same thing and having strange
1:26:55sensations from it because the sun is a
1:26:58very strange thing you take for granted.
1:27:01It's a star that at some point will
1:27:03disappear. And in one of my chapters, I
1:27:06described the birth of our son.
1:27:09But they were having the same sensation
1:27:1120,000 years ago that you can have. I
1:27:14don't know. For me, that's that's a very
1:27:16powerful thought.
1:27:17>> How do you become the most powerful
1:27:19person in the room?
1:27:21>> Okay. Well, um, in the laws of human
1:27:24nature, I have a chapter on nonverbal
1:27:28communication and I talk about the
1:27:31qualities
1:27:32that emanate power
1:27:35in people.
1:27:37So if you read that chapter and you
1:27:39study that you will understand the
1:27:41qualities that you should have. So first
1:27:44of all a powerful person is not like the
1:27:49is not like looking everywhere. It's not
1:27:52like cuz that's a sign of nervousness
1:27:54like oh are people looking at me? People
1:27:56noticing me. Okay. So you're you're
1:27:58controlling your facial expressions.
1:28:00You're not you're not looking
1:28:02everywhere. you're you're have a focus
1:28:04on something in particular, a particular
1:28:06person, a point in the room. Okay? You
1:28:09have a posture that um you're not like
1:28:14you feel confident. You have a
1:28:16particular pose. And so I say that a
1:28:19powerful person is relaxed,
1:28:22right? So when you enter that room, you
1:28:25are relaxed. You're not nervous. You're
1:28:28not looking for attention. You're not
1:28:29wondering what people think about you.
1:28:32You're inside your body. You're calm and
1:28:34you're confident and you're relaxed.
1:28:36That relaxed quality is incredibly
1:28:39powerful, incredibly attractive because
1:28:42if you enter a room and you're a
1:28:44stranger or people don't know you,
1:28:47everyone's nervous. Everyone naturally
1:28:49is nervous, but you're not. You're calm.
1:28:51You're not looking everywhere. You're
1:28:53not touching yourself. You're not
1:28:54talking a lot. You're relaxed. You're
1:28:57going to draw a lot of attention, a lot
1:28:59of power. Okay? And don't talk a lot.
1:29:03Control your words. Have a sense of
1:29:06mystery. So when I when we talked about
1:29:09withdraw and absence,
1:29:13you can be in a room but also slightly
1:29:15absent. How? Well, you're not trying so
1:29:20hard to get attention. You're almost
1:29:22stepping back and letting people come to
1:29:25you instead of you having to go out and
1:29:27get them. So, you're inwardly stepping
1:29:30back and people are drawn to you in that
1:29:34way. If you're always like in their face
1:29:36trying to get them to talk to you, but
1:29:38you're stepping back and you're the one
1:29:40kind of inside your own body and
1:29:42commanding, they're going to come to you
1:29:44and they're going to want to talk to
1:29:45you. So, that sense of withdrawal of
1:29:49retreating is very, very powerful. I
1:29:52told you in that room with 50 Cent.
1:29:56Of course, it's a little bit skewed
1:29:57because he's 50 Cent.
1:29:59>> Exactly.
1:29:59>> So, I'm sorry. But the fact that he
1:30:02wasn't talking at all, that he was so
1:30:04quiet and had that kind of enigmatic
1:30:07smile on his face, being sort of
1:30:09mysterious and enigmatic is very
1:30:11powerful. Made everybody like, "What's
1:30:14he thinking? What's he doing? What's he
1:30:15up to?" So, a little sense of mystery.
1:30:18You're not obvious and you're relaxed
1:30:20and in control. I think that will
1:30:22command attention when you enter that
1:30:23room.
1:30:24>> Let's say you're not someone who's
1:30:26popular and famous. You're an average
1:30:29person. You're on your journey to become
1:30:31someone exceptional. You enter a room.
1:30:34You enter a social gathering and you're
1:30:36confident. You're relaxed. And what do
1:30:38you do? You just stand in the corner and
1:30:39do nothing and just look at people.
1:30:42That's going to make it very weird,
1:30:44right? You're just standing alone.
1:30:48Well, I mean, you can go up to somebody
1:30:52if you recognize that there's a person
1:30:54that's like um maybe they're kind of
1:30:57powerful or interesting, you can go up
1:30:59to them. But, uh I mean, you're asking
1:31:03kind of a slightly impossible question
1:31:06because
1:31:08you can't command a room without a
1:31:10reputation of some sort. You have a
1:31:12past. People know you. If there's just
1:31:15strangers, what I'm telling you will
1:31:18have some power, will have some effect.
1:31:20But yeah, if you just walk into the room
1:31:22and you just relax and you don't do
1:31:24anything, okay, I I agree with you,
1:31:27right? But normally in normal life,
1:31:31people have reputations.
1:31:33So when 50 Cent enters the room, wow,
1:31:37when Robert Green when he was 20 years
1:31:39old enter the room, who cares about him,
1:31:41right? So your reputation carries a lot
1:31:44of power behind it.
1:31:46>> How do you not feel powerless and
1:31:48insecure in front of a very powerful
1:31:50person?
1:31:52>> I tell you and I know this because I
1:31:54have to interact sometimes with powerful
1:31:56people by being calm and relaxed and not
1:32:01asking them a million questions and not
1:32:04acting like I think they're a god. I
1:32:07feel like they're a human being. So when
1:32:09I met 50, I was very normal and natural
1:32:13around him. And I talked to him like I I
1:32:16talked to anybody. And boy was that kind
1:32:18of powerful for him cuz he was expecting
1:32:20me to be all weird and Henry Kissinger-l
1:32:23like with him or Machavevelian. And
1:32:25instead I was talking to him about
1:32:27strategy and and how he was strategizing
1:32:30with his record albums. that are just
1:32:33just being a normal human being because
1:32:35they're so used to people
1:32:38famous celebrities are so used to people
1:32:40being weird around them and being
1:32:42intimidated and being insecure and not
1:32:45knowing when someone's natural around
1:32:48them and relaxed. Wow, that's that's
1:32:52really interesting because that mean
1:32:53almost makes it seem like you're equals
1:32:58>> right now. could be a little bit
1:32:59insulting if you're not careful. So,
1:33:02it's not like you're equals because I'm
1:33:04as powerful as 50, but it's equal as
1:33:07human beings and I'm not in really
1:33:10intimidated by you. I actually want to
1:33:12talk to you about regular things. If you
1:33:14do that in the right way, it can be very
1:33:16powerful. It could also be taken the
1:33:18wrong way too. So, you have to be
1:33:19careful.
1:33:20>> When did you feel the most powerless in
1:33:23your life?
1:33:26Well, um,
1:33:29prior to writing the 48 laws of power,
1:33:32um, I had been working in many different
1:33:36jobs. Like my girlfriend, my wife, and I
1:33:38counted it must have been 60 different
1:33:40jobs. I couldn't I couldn't hold any job
1:33:44down because I wasn't happy. I wanted to
1:33:47be a writer
1:33:49and I had no success. I tried
1:33:52journalism. I tried writing novels. I
1:33:54tried working in Hollywood. And so in
1:33:57the '9s, in the mid '9s,
1:33:59I fell into a very deep depression
1:34:02because my life wasn't going anywhere.
1:34:04And that's when I felt very, very
1:34:07helpless.
1:34:08>> Not this time.
1:34:10>> This time I feel physically helpless.
1:34:14That time I felt mentally kind of
1:34:16helpless.
1:34:17>> And what was worse?
1:34:19>> It's a good question. I think the
1:34:22depression in the '9s was worse because
1:34:26I now have all of this success that I
1:34:29never had before. So having my body kind
1:34:33of destroyed, at least I have
1:34:36accomplished something. I've achieved so
1:34:38I could die and I and I I could die
1:34:40happy because I did what I wanted to do.
1:34:43>> But back in the '9s,
1:34:46it was it was very bad time for me. It's
1:34:49very fascinating that you ranked
1:34:53psychological help helplessness
1:34:57above then physical helplessness.
1:35:01Yeah. Because um physically you know you
1:35:05can do things you can do therapy you can
1:35:10try like the hybraric chamber you can
1:35:13practice walking you can deal with it. I
1:35:16got a um because I was very physical. I
1:35:20did a lot of exercise. I got a um a
1:35:24special kind of bicycle. It's called a
1:35:27recumbent bike.
1:35:29And I live near this giant park and I'm
1:35:32able to go ride up into yesterday I took
1:35:34a 2-hour bike ride way up into these
1:35:36hills. Physically I can deal with it. I
1:35:39can deal with it. It's It's not fun. It
1:35:42it was a big loss for me but I can
1:35:45handle it. But the psychological
1:35:48you don't know what to do. You don't
1:35:50know where to turn. You feel I knew that
1:35:53I had
1:35:55something important to express to the
1:35:57world. I have a strange way of thinking.
1:36:00I had lots of experiences and I knew
1:36:03that there was something inside of me
1:36:05but I couldn't connect it to anything. I
1:36:07couldn't get it out into the world and
1:36:10that was that that was worse I think
1:36:12because there was nothing I could do you
1:36:15know and I was very fortunate to meet a
1:36:18man in 1995
1:36:22who packages books
1:36:25and he's basically the one who kind of
1:36:27saved my life because he gave me the
1:36:30opportunity to write the 48 laws of
1:36:31power. So I think that was worse than
1:36:34what I'm going through now in in a
1:36:36strange way. Yeah.
1:36:38>> You know, there was a time in my life
1:36:40where [snorts]
1:36:42this was 5 and a half years ago where I
1:36:47was feeling completely helpless and
1:36:49powerless and psychologically How old
1:36:51are you, Raj? I'm just curious.
1:36:52>> I'm 29 now.
1:36:53>> Wow, you're so young. Okay, go on. I'm
1:36:56sorry. So there was a point where I was
1:37:00I was leaving my home and in India you
1:37:03live with your parents you don't move
1:37:04out it's not a very normal thing to do
1:37:07>> right and it's like almost seen as a bad
1:37:10thing if you leave your parents and live
1:37:11somewhere something I I wanted to leave
1:37:13and start something of my own
1:37:17and that was a point where I felt
1:37:20really helpless in my head because I
1:37:22didn't know what to do the idea of
1:37:25podcast or anything was not in my head
1:37:27at all and
1:37:30I have to thank you because I used to
1:37:32read like a lot of small snippets which
1:37:35was just roaming around on internet by
1:37:37you.
1:37:38>> I'm sorry what was that about
1:37:39>> like small snippets like tweets or like
1:37:41small quotes of you
1:37:43>> which were roaming around on the
1:37:44internet all around. Uh-huh.
1:37:46>> That helped me a lot
1:37:47>> really
1:37:48>> like and I'm so grateful because I I
1:37:53think in my head when I look back and
1:37:55when I think about those days one of the
1:37:58big reasons I got the courage to do
1:38:00certain things was uh your quotes
1:38:04>> really.
1:38:05>> So thank you so much for
1:38:06>> Oh did you get the book?
1:38:08>> Yeah. So I read I read the seduction I
1:38:11read art of war. I read bits of mastery.
1:38:14I read 48 laws of power. I was like a
1:38:16Robert Green junkie. [laughter]
1:38:18>> Wow. Wow.
1:38:20>> That's very good.
1:38:22>> Even right now couple of months ago,
1:38:24[snorts] there was a big decision in my
1:38:26life that I wanted to take and I've been
1:38:28dabbling around that decision since last
1:38:30uh one year or so
1:38:33and I was going through this
1:38:34frustration. I'm like I really don't
1:38:36know what to do and I read a tweet by
1:38:38you. I'm paraphrasing it but it was
1:38:41something around death ground like if
1:38:44you are not on the death ground you
1:38:46can't actually go out and win and that
1:38:48was the day we took a decision to just
1:38:51do [snorts] something we were scared of.
1:38:53Do you think every young person at some
1:38:55point to become someone really big
1:38:58should put themselves in a death crown
1:39:00should leave everything and should start
1:39:03somewhere new.
1:39:05>> Well it depends. Some people can't
1:39:07handle it. You know, some people are so
1:39:10much anxiety
1:39:12and they've had issues from early
1:39:14childhood and they can't handle it. If
1:39:16they if you put them on death ground,
1:39:18they would just destroy themselves. It
1:39:20would be too powerful, right?
1:39:23So, you need to have a certain degree of
1:39:26inner strength, which you probably had
1:39:28even when you were 24 and you were
1:39:30feeling helpless. So just to backtrack,
1:39:33even when I felt helpless and desperate
1:39:36in the '9s, I never gave up on myself
1:39:40because I knew that there was something
1:39:42I could express to the world. You have
1:39:45something like that in yourself. So if
1:39:47you have a foundation,
1:39:49a degree of inner strength, then the
1:39:51death ground is fantastic for you. But
1:39:53if inside you're sort of weak or you're
1:39:56soft, and I'm not criticizing because
1:39:58this world is a hard place, then death
1:40:01ground could just absolutely destroy
1:40:03you. So it just depends on the
1:40:05individual. But I would advocate for a
1:40:08lot of young people who don't know any
1:40:11don't have any direction who feel lost
1:40:13in this world to try that if they can
1:40:16because I think it could if you feel
1:40:19like
1:40:21tomorrow I could die. I'm 25 years old.
1:40:24I've gone to college. I have these
1:40:26ideas, these businesses I want to start,
1:40:30but it could all end tomorrow. I could
1:40:31have a terrible illness. I could die. I
1:40:34better get going. I better get moving.
1:40:36Yeah, it could be huge motivational
1:40:38factor.
1:40:39>> But how to build inner strength? That's
1:40:41the most difficult part. How to build
1:40:44inner strength?
1:40:47>> Well, it's one thing you cannot fake,
1:40:51right?
1:40:52>> Yeah.
1:40:52>> And you can't take a drug for it.
1:40:54There's no hack. There's no app. There's
1:40:57nothing on the internet that's going to
1:40:59give it for you. It can only come from
1:41:01you. But it has to be built up slowly.
1:41:05It has to come from doing things in the
1:41:07world, from trying things, from trying
1:41:10to start a podcast, from trying to go to
1:41:12the university and getting a degree. You
1:41:15fail, but then you realize, well, I can
1:41:18pick myself back up. I can I can get
1:41:21back up and I can try again. I can do
1:41:23something else. It builds you build some
1:41:25confidence in yourself slowly slowly,
1:41:29day by day by day. If you're patient and
1:41:32you don't give up, you have down moments
1:41:34but then you get up. Then you have down
1:41:36moments and you get up, you're going to
1:41:38build that inner strength. It's
1:41:39resilience. That is the word. You can
1:41:42bounce back from adverse situations,
1:41:45right? And so I can say for writing this
1:41:49book, you know, for seven years in the
1:41:52beginning, I just couldn't imagine
1:41:55accomplishing it because it was so there
1:41:58was so much difficulty.
1:42:00But as I started ga going the second
1:42:03year, the third year, the fourth year
1:42:04and I was making progress, I started
1:42:06developing a kind of inner strength and
1:42:09and confidence in myself.
1:42:12>> So you have to build confidence in
1:42:14yourself, but it can't come from talking
1:42:16or thinking or hanging out with your
1:42:19friends. It can only come from doing
1:42:21things in the world and failing and
1:42:24having tough times and things going bad
1:42:27and doubting yourself. getting back up.
1:42:29It has to be through your actions, not
1:42:31through a lot of talk.
1:42:34>> True. Here's the last question that I
1:42:36ask all my guests.
1:42:37>> Is these are [snorts]
1:42:40>> What is the cost of becoming Robert
1:42:43Green?
1:42:46>> Well, um
1:42:50that people think I have an answer to
1:42:52everything and I don't.
1:42:54Sometimes I'm just stupid and sometimes
1:42:56I don't have an answer. And you ask me a
1:42:59question and I kind of blather and I
1:43:01give this thing but I'm actually kind of
1:43:03just covering up my ignorance. I don't
1:43:06know everything. I have gaps, right? And
1:43:09so sometimes
1:43:11if I think about it, I come up with a
1:43:14good answer. But on the moment I don't
1:43:16have any answers. So the cost of it is
1:43:19that people think I know a lot more than
1:43:21I actually do know. So that's the
1:43:23problem. But do you sacrifice personally
1:43:26anything in life to become who you are
1:43:28today or
1:43:30the kind of successful person you have
1:43:32become?
1:43:32>> Well,
1:43:34I write these books that are like I'm
1:43:37not bragging but they're like marathons.
1:43:39This last book took seven years. The
1:43:41laws of human nature took six years and
1:43:44it led to my stroke cuz it was so
1:43:45intense. Mastery took me five. They keep
1:43:48getting longer and longer. They've worn
1:43:51my body down. They've just made me age.
1:43:54They've just really sucked a lot of
1:43:57energy out of them, out of me. So, the
1:44:00cost has been physical, right? And um
1:44:05you know, when I wrote the 48 laws of
1:44:07power, I was 38, 37. I was young,
1:44:11relatively young. I was bursting with
1:44:13energy. I wrote that book in 2 years. I
1:44:17could never do that now. So the cost has
1:44:20been slowing down, slowing down, taking
1:44:25more and more time and physically
1:44:28draining myself. So um but on the other
1:44:32hand, I have a very rich life. So I I
1:44:35cannot complain.
1:44:37>> Absolutely. Thank you so much.
1:44:39>> Thank you.
1:44:39>> Thank you for spending time with me. It
1:44:41was honor to have you.
1:44:42>> Oh yeah. Well, we'll have to do it
1:44:43again.
1:44:44>> Absolutely. It would be my honor again.
1:44:46Whenever you tell me you're free, I'll
1:44:48come down.
1:44:49>> Hello.
1:44:49>> Hi. You're right.
1:44:51>> Yes.
1:44:51>> Very nice. My pleasure.
1:44:52>> Pleasure meeting you, sir.
1:44:54>> Is there any feedback for me? How can I
1:44:56do this better?
1:44:58>> You have a very good style. You have a
1:45:00very good style. Um, I can't think of
1:45:04any. And first of all, that's a very
1:45:05good question. instead of uh asking like
1:45:09a general question, if you could make me
1:45:12make it a little more specific with a
1:45:14particular scenario,
1:45:17so it's easier to answer,
1:45:20>> but
1:45:22I'm I'm sorry, but I have really no
1:45:23other comments because of you're you're
1:45:25a great interviewer.
1:45:27>> I'll do that next time. Every question
1:45:29is going to be specific. Not every
1:45:30question.
1:45:30>> It's a great feedback. Thank you so
1:45:32much.
1:45:32>> No, no, no. You're welcome. You're very
1:45:33welcome. Thank you for watching this
1:45:35episode till the end. We would love to
1:45:37know what you liked or disliked about
1:45:39this episode and which guests you would
1:45:42like to see on the show. Let us know in
1:45:44the comments. Your feedback help us
1:45:46improve and make every episode a little
1:45:49better. I'll see you next time. Until
1:45:51then, keep figuring out.

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