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The Psychology of Lesbian Relationships: Homophobic / Sexist Therapeutic Culture Miriam Grace — Transcript

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0:04hello thanks for joining me again for
0:06the second part of my paper so this
0:12paper I delivered at a conference and it
0:14was directed towards um psychotherapists
0:18in particular Gish
0:20psychotherapists and my motivation was
0:23to help therapists really think about
0:27their approach to working um in
0:30particular with women coming out later
0:32in life but more broadly um to look at
0:36our unconscious bias and Prejudice and
0:39assumptions and how we can work with
0:41ourselves to be better therapists so
0:45that was the angle It Was Written in um
0:48so since then I've
0:51been recording shorter I say shorter
0:54they're not that short but some um some
0:57chunks of um the paper and the main
1:02audience for this is is an informal
1:04audience of um friends colleagues
1:08clients um interested people who want to
1:12know more about this stuff so a lot of
1:14the people listening to this video will
1:18be later in life lesbians or
1:21psychotherapists working with that
1:24demographic so last time I was speaking
1:28about my theory about
1:31why relationships in particular bring
1:35out more Prejudice and more bias in US
1:39perhaps in some some of the topics and
1:43um if you listen to that um you'll see
1:47that I was saying it's you know it's a
1:49very intense process and um it's our
1:53fear and our need for certainty that
1:56gets us into this idea that we can
2:00know in advance what a good relationship
2:03is and what a bad relationship is and
2:07certainty and that the extreme version
2:09of that is is Prejudice rigidity rules
2:14inability to see other people's versions
2:17of the best relationship that they can
2:20have for their personality for their
2:22Partners or or plural Partners
2:26personalities and um you know in the
2:29circum cumstances that they're within um
2:34so this all arose from my research into
2:38women at midlife and those coming out as
2:40lesbian and why um they were going to
2:45support groups which is what I was doing
2:48um rather than
2:50therapy um so and this process for me
2:54happened at the same time as
2:57perimenopause and menopause
3:00um and I'm completely um engaged in
3:05researching this so thank you for
3:07joining me listening and I really hope
3:11that you'll comment as well because this
3:14is something I want to talk about so um
3:18I'm hearing my side of the conversation
3:20I would love love to hear um your side
3:24of the conversation
3:26so um this you know this wish to
3:32explore this topic came from my own
3:34personal and professional experiences in
3:36recent years and the paper has a classic
3:40gestel agenda which is to become more
3:42aware it's not to try and change bias um
3:47we have bias but it's to make it
3:49conscious um so that we can see our bias
3:54see our prejudice and name it and my
3:57invitation to anybody listening is to
3:59reflect together on our own bias and um
4:03and to begin to encapsulate our approach
4:06to diversity in our own words you'll
4:09notice that um there'll be some Spanish
4:12um in these slides because the
4:14conference was in Madrid and that was
4:16that was part of the request um in
4:19presenting our papers if you look at the
4:22um the picture um
4:25gelt um has a theory um called field and
4:29ground which um or figure and ground um
4:32I mean um so what's figure is is what um
4:36what we see and what is fi is the whole
4:40picture or
4:41and it depends on our Focus how we see
4:44the picture so this picture I don't know
4:48how you're seeing this um I tend to see
4:51it as um a young woman with
4:57um uh slender neck wearing some sort of
5:01fur
5:02collar looking away from us but I can
5:06also see it as an old woman with a a
5:09large nose and Chin um and a head scarf
5:14um so it the image itself um says a lot
5:20to me
5:21about um how we see women and um and how
5:25much can change just from um what we
5:30focus on or what is figure for us so to
5:36introduce myself um I'm a
5:38psychotherapist with 34 years
5:41experience um I'm a woman who married a
5:44man and I raised a family and had a
5:47private Psychotherapy practice it was
5:50very successful and then at the age of
5:5250 I came out as lesbian and now I'm
5:55happily married to a woman who is part
5:58of my adult 's
6:00family and I broke my own
6:04assumptions about myself and I broke
6:06other people's assumptions too and the
6:10paper's very much about challenging our
6:12judgments of what a healthy relationship
6:14is and noticing our own
6:18contradictions so where could I find the
6:20therapy I needed to process the
6:23consequences of such a huge life change
6:27and I remember scrolling through list
6:29therapists trying to work out um whether
6:33they might be an ally to LGBT people
6:36from their profile photograph you know
6:39could you tell from their shirt or their
6:41haircut um whether they believed in
6:44conversion therapy or were supportive
6:47and a point that I think is important to
6:50make to um therapists who are allies is
6:55is they need to put that in their
6:58information um um so that um people like
7:02us can feel
7:04safe when we go into
7:07therapy so um within a short amount of
7:11time I found that my new community the
7:14rainbow Community wasn't assumption free
7:17either um so we'll be looking at that um
7:22today and repeatedly the answers to
7:25research questions about therapy just
7:28showed very little understanding
7:29understanding of lesbians of coming out
7:33um or of coming out later and the lack
7:35of awareness wasn't always limited to
7:38straight
7:40therapists so um I'm wondering is
7:44psychotherapy influencing our culture to
7:48self diagnose and label others or is
7:52popular psychology culture perhaps
7:55influencing therapists to judge
7:57relationships more than philos opical
8:00stance would have because we're not
8:02trained to judge um and and analyze we
8:07are trained
8:09to was particularly um humanistic or gel
8:12therapists we're trained to um observe
8:16the world from the client's perspective
8:19and and feed that back to them so I have
8:22a lot of perspectives to bring but but
8:25um four perspectives I have to bring to
8:28this topic is that I've been a straight
8:30therapist and a gay therapist and I've
8:33been a straight client and a gay client
8:37and um I've got a lot of material to to
8:42think um about
8:45therapy with um so the question why many
8:51women in need of support prefer informal
8:55online support groups to psychotherapy
8:57and a condensed version of my findings
9:00is written up in quering Gish out
9:02therapy which was published by Routledge
9:06in
9:082023 um there's the picture of the cover
9:12um and this paper's a
9:15continuation of the theme um of what was
9:18published in the book um but I want to
9:22extend my exploration to the training of
9:26therapists and the extensive bias within
9:29the very foundations of
9:33psychoanalysis Psychotherapy and and
9:36therefore popular psychology which I see
9:40all feeding into each other um you know
9:44the precepts of a humanistic therapy
9:46like gal should mean it's ideally placed
9:49to be a radical countercultural space
9:52but we're part of a deeply oppressive
9:55field this bigger picture is deeply
9:57oppressive and it doesn't magically
10:00disappear inside the training room or
10:02the therapy room or within ourselves and
10:05um one of the um
10:08quotes uh that I quite like to use was
10:12written above Carl yong's door and um
10:15translated from the Latin it says called
10:18or not called God will be present um and
10:21to me this is not so much about God it's
10:25um about the wholeness or the wholeness
10:28of the person
10:29everything's in that room um
10:33because my client is in the therapy room
10:36and I'm in the therapy room and so
10:38everything we've absorbed comes in with
10:41us and so our sexuality is in the room
10:45and our bias and our prejudice is there
10:48and we can't leave it outside
10:50so what can we do about that we can't
10:53keep those things out what we can do is
10:58um is become consci ious of and
11:01acknowledge um all the subtle
11:06um behind the scenes stuff going on with
11:10the S so this work around our own
11:12Prejudice and bias never um never ends
11:16um and it's important that it's
11:20constantly challenged so um let's take a
11:25brief look at the certainty of popular
11:28psychology and I'm using the word
11:30certainty um because this relates back
11:32to another part of the paper which is in
11:35the first
11:37bze um chunk that I recorded which is
11:41relates to this idea that because we're
11:44anxious about
11:47attachment we like certainty in
11:49relationships and if we can be certain
11:52that you know we can have the
11:54relationships that we want and we can
11:57have love and attachment
11:59um it you know temporarily soothes our
12:03anxiety but of course nothing is certain
12:06and I go into more detail on the other
12:09recording about that um so um when we're
12:15frightened we need certainty so I just
12:18went through Amazon um looking for books
12:21on relationships so here we've got how
12:24not to die alone I mean you can't get
12:26you can't get a better
12:29description of the fear um and uh and no
12:33doubt um the sales um were very much
12:37affected by such a um a scary title um I
12:43can't see so well um eight dates to
12:45bring your
12:47relationship happy does it say something
12:50unlasting um and uh Mars and Venus
12:54together forever you know forever is
12:56another one of these certainty words
13:00um so you know and getting past your
13:03breakup women who love too much there's
13:05all these answers in these in these
13:08books and some of
13:10what um I'm working with for myself of
13:16course and with my clients is
13:18that there there aren't there isn't
13:21certainty and there aren't answers and
13:24part of the maturing and the growing and
13:26the strengthening is is to is is to
13:29really begin to trust ourselves that we
13:32can cope with
13:34uncertainty and that's that's a far more
13:37achievable goal to begin to trust
13:40ourselves than achieving certainty
13:44because there is no
13:45certainty um okay so by and large my
13:48first
13:50assumption um that common relationship
13:53rules tend to serve old now dead white
13:56men is correct and this certainty
14:00creates a market for anyone acting as a
14:02relationship Guru um who can make money
14:05from a client's need for certainty in
14:08rules and you know and my stance is not
14:12popular for me to say well there is no
14:14certainty and um you know I can't make
14:17your relationship last forever um it's
14:20not a great selling point so so much
14:23better to sell the solution of how not
14:25to Die Alone um so most of us have a
14:29selection of self-help books that help
14:31inform our practice as therapists as
14:34well as our personal lives and
14:37increasingly more and more clients are
14:40learning theory and strategies from Tik
14:42Tok and Instagram um they can learn five
14:45rules for one issue and a breathing
14:47technique for the next issue arising and
14:50I'm not putting that down at all I think
14:52it's you know I think sharing
14:54information is great and and much of
14:57this information is useful
15:00um but as therapists as Gish Del
15:03therapists we we're not reliant on
15:06techniques we don't like
15:08techniques um for techniques sake or
15:11techniques per se and we we don't like
15:15theories because it can just become new
15:19rules um for the client to swallow from
15:21the so-called expert and what what I you
15:26know my passion is is for
15:29my clients for all of us is to trust
15:33ourselves and if that isn't what coming
15:36outs about you know what is um we don't
15:40want to be out of the frying pan Into
15:43the Fire swapping one set of rules about
15:46how to be as a as a straight woman um
15:49for another set of rules about how how
15:53to do
15:54gay properly yay you know um it's it's
15:59not about being straight or gay it's
16:01about being um comfortable in yourself
16:06and um and trusting yourself and for me
16:09certainly it's about my relationship
16:11with
16:12myself um so we don't want new injects
16:16injects is the gal word for rules things
16:21that we swallow whole we don't want new
16:23injects for our clients to swallow um in
16:28gel therapy and person centered and
16:31humanistic therapies we support clients
16:34to explore to create to
16:38destroy and to
16:40play so um
16:43it's yeah it's a different it's a
16:45different way of thinking that's quite
16:47unusual in a world that likes to go to
16:51the the doctor for the
16:54medication um that isn't the sort of
16:56therapy that I practice
17:00so yeah um
17:02hormones
17:04so I I don't have an answer by the way
17:07um why you know why do so many women
17:10come out in
17:12midlife
17:14um I think that women come out later
17:19generally um because of the social
17:22conditioning and this is what a lot of
17:25my paper's about um
17:29and and that invisibility to to
17:33ourselves and having spoken with you
17:36know with other people who work in this
17:38area um like um amarie zanel um she she
17:43says that you know some some people are
17:46just
17:48um what you call it um gay in glass in
17:51glass closets it's like they're so gay
17:54it's it's obvious and others are more
17:58Fem or more straight
18:01passing um and in the support groups for
18:04later in life women that she works with
18:07um there are a lot more of the fem
18:10straight passing and I think that um
18:13because of stereotypes again
18:18um it's it's more the
18:23um the VIS the visible person that looks
18:27like a lesbian whatever a lesbian looks
18:29like I mean lesbian looks like this um
18:33but you know what um those people who
18:36fit The Stereotype um maybe have to come
18:40out earlier because they're seen they're
18:44visible
18:45um so and I recently learned that women
18:48who have existing dopamine management
18:52issues um that's a complex way of saying
18:56ADHD those those types of neur
18:59diversity they might have increasing
19:02difficulty in managing their dopamine
19:04levels as their estrogen
19:07drops um now you see I see this as a
19:12judgment of women's Behavior to even
19:14call it dopamine management issues um do
19:18the women themselves have issues or does
19:20the society have issues with the
19:23exuberance and flourishing of the said
19:26woman
19:28um just a question um so I wrote um in
19:33the um routage book um no one is
19:37suggesting that estrogen makes women
19:39straight but a majority of menopausal
19:42women concur that they have decreased
19:44capacity to accept other people's
19:46standards or ideas about how they should
19:49live their lives it is possible that a
19:52drop in estrogen is a contributory
19:55factor for some women to be less
19:57conforming and more self
19:59directing so that's a um a formal um
20:03more academical literary way of saying
20:07that a middle-aged woman ain't going to
20:10put up with your
20:13um so we we'll move
20:16on um one of the I I found so many um
20:22exciting and interesting um papers and
20:25studies and literature um but I spoke um
20:29for a bit with a woman called Michaela
20:32Johnson who wrote a paper called from
20:36dead to Fem a qualitative analysis of
20:39lesbian representation on
20:41television and um I hope one day that
20:45I'll be able to um interview her and uh
20:48put her on my um upcoming
20:51podcast um this quote really um struck
20:57home for me messaging about a
20:59marginalized group can impact how
21:03someone in that group sees
21:05themselves and that's that is core
21:10to this coming out process and the need
21:14for
21:17therapy um the thesis that she wrote was
21:20so riveting and well written I've
21:22struggled to cut it down for the
21:25presentation um and to just pull a few
21:28few things but um this is what I pulled
21:32out as a complete novice to
21:36lesbianism um on television and
21:39especially in porn lesbians are
21:41portrayed and created for the male
21:44gays um they fit society's ideal Active
21:48slim tall long hair
21:51beautiful um sometimes a lesbian kiss or
21:54lesbian sex is portrayed in a way that
21:56is purely aimed at male sexual fantasy
21:59and doesn't even look like lesbian sex
22:02to me um for example heterosexual sex
22:06seems to have a clear start and end and
22:09on TV at least ends with both Partners
22:12flopping back onto the bed post orgasm
22:15some minutes after having torn each
22:17other's clothes off and my experience of
22:20lesbian sex is that it can last a couple
22:22of days incorporates decent snacks some
22:26naps baths cooking
22:29and it doesn't end because one or both
22:31of the partners have orgasm just the
22:34once um and then there are these other
22:37portrayals of lesbians the the Dyke with
22:39shaved hair and piercings and tattoos um
22:43and often in in the dramas on TV this
22:46character dies or is a humorous
22:49supporting character and um they don't
22:51hang around with other dkes but they
22:54prop up straight people in their more
22:57important
22:59lives um and until someone like me who
23:03fits neither of those stereotypes joins
23:05a group like mine we don't often see
23:08ourselves reflected
23:09anywhere um so I I really loved um Sarah
23:14Lancers portrayal of a head teacher
23:17coming out later in life in the TV show
23:20Last Tango in Halifax but let's just um
23:24have a bit more of a look at Michaela
23:26Johnson's work um so she says that
23:30although lesbian characters have been
23:32present since the early history of
23:34Television they have often been
23:36portrayed in a negative light initially
23:39these characters were limited to villain
23:41roles where they prayed on young
23:43straight women until they died
23:46violently um lesbian characters Were
23:48Expendable and easily written off making
23:51them easy characters to hate um
23:55and that she also notes that in recent
23:58years a growing number of shows have
24:00contained lesbian
24:02representation and by the Numbers things
24:06look to be
24:07improving um but are they let's have a
24:11look
24:12um so what she says while this increase
24:15in representation is no trivial feat the
24:19messaging surrounding these characters
24:21also needs to be addressed Studies have
24:23shown that messaging about a
24:25marginalized group can impact how
24:28someone one in that group sees
24:30themselves and negative messaging can
24:33impact the self-esteem of an individual
24:35and shift how they view themselves so
24:38while the quantity of lesbian characters
24:41have grown over the years that does not
24:44mean that the ways these characters are
24:46portrayed has improved since the early
24:49days of television and many stereotypes
24:52and tropes still exist today and um that
24:57just felt so true for me and um so you
25:01can you can find her paper um I also um
25:06spoke to her on LinkedIn and um if you
25:10you know if you like what she's done let
25:12her know um uh I think it's it's it's so
25:17important and this needs to be published
25:19this needs to be out there so I just
25:23thought I'll come back to why I love
25:25Sarah Lan here um so because she was a
25:28lesbian I could relate to she she wasn't
25:31a porn star you know or bordering on
25:33porn star sort of that sort of lesbian
25:37um and she didn't adhere to the
25:39stereotypical lesbian dress code and
25:42haircut and um I've I've said already
25:46you know my behavioral choices at this
25:48time in my life for simply a deeper and
25:51broader authenticity than I'd
25:53experienced or been able to express
25:55before um and uh
25:58perhaps naively I was delighted I could
26:01create my role in a relationship with a
26:04woman without having any prototypes or
26:07expectations to adhere to and I thought
26:10um my partner and I could start with a
26:12blank
26:14slate um well you you you live and learn
26:19don't you I mean it is much more of a
26:21blank slate um than uh other
26:25relationships I've had before so um
26:31um uh Nina sna who plays um Kate um in
26:38in the drama says that the relationship
26:42between the couple was one of the most
26:44normalized lesbian relationships shown
26:47on the small screen and um Sarah lanare
26:52said that she got letters from women
26:55saying that Caroline's same seex related
26:58relationship personally inspired them
27:00and she said that when you know when
27:04asked how did
27:05she um act this she said that she
27:09focused on the humanity of
27:12Caroline more than the
27:15sexuality um yeah
27:19and that's nice we hey we're human
27:22beings um
27:26good this
27:29this quote from me this voice bubble bit
27:32here we are made so invisible we can't
27:34even see
27:36ourselves came up in my writing and in
27:40my work
27:42and it's this is this is the emotional
27:48punch really for you know this is the
27:50impact um and I still can't say that or
27:54read that without feeling
27:58um something very strong and
28:02um it's mixture of horror and grief I
28:07think um and this is why seeing
28:10ourselves represented is so
28:13important
28:14um how how can we begin to see ourselves
28:18more um it helps the representation
28:22helps the space helps um the
28:26encouragement to think that noticing who
28:29you are and listening to your inner
28:32voice is important that all helps so you
28:35know there's the representation in the
28:37media there's therapy there's meditation
28:39there's journaling there's these support
28:41groups all of these things help make us
28:45not just visible to other people but
28:47visible to ourselves and um yeah this
28:51touches on a very
28:54raw um place for me um um and my
28:59research led me to conclude that we some
29:03lesbians are so
29:05marginalized and Mis
29:08misrepresented um or under
29:10represented that you know that we lose
29:13sight of ourselves and again you know
29:17some people say oh you know it's it's
29:19obviously a lot easier to come out now
29:21and maybe maybe that's why you came out
29:23late and um to me 20
29:2824 has nothing to do with with a woman's
29:33process of coming out it's it's what she
29:36was raised in and some of my writing
29:39sort of talks about you know it's being
29:41raised in the you know um the 60s and
29:44the 70s and the 80s but I was I was just
29:47interviewing somebody the other day and
29:50um you know she was half my age but she
29:55had absorbed you know a lot of anxiety
29:58around um her sexuality and coming out
30:02was you know it is a big deal it it's
30:05still a big deal um so you know looking
30:09at an
30:10individual's um culture environment and
30:13what they're absorbing is is important
30:16and we all of us are growing up in a
30:19sexist and homophobic environment to
30:23some
30:25extent um when we are represented rough
30:28curated for the male gays um and again
30:32like I say even when women are going
30:35into therapy um there seems to be very
30:39little understanding of lesbians coming
30:42out and and coming out
30:45later so um
30:49lesbophobia
30:51um it's seen as typical that lesbian
30:54relationships are fast intense and deep
30:57and result in the lesbian New Hall and
31:01that refers to women moving in together
31:03very quickly or moving across country to
31:06be with each other and it's a joke about
31:09lesbians that I believe is
31:12derogatory um it appears to indicate a
31:14lack of self-control or a lack of an
31:17ability to make rational decisions and
31:20many avoid the U-Haul simply because of
31:23its
31:25perception um there are reasons
31:29in you know every case needs to be taken
31:32on its own Merit but there are reasons
31:34to um to be wary of a U-Haul um but it's
31:41you know it's it's not um it's very
31:46contaminated by by this um
31:50lesbophobia and then there's Lesbian Bed
31:52Death which refers to the dying off of
31:55the original frequent and amazing sex
31:58which happens at the beginning of
32:00relationships and both these terms um
32:04and there's more but both those terms
32:06arise from a type of
32:08sneering about the depth of attachment
32:11that's possible between two women um so
32:15I hate them I hate both those
32:17terms um I also dislike the fact that um
32:23the words limerance and codependency are
32:26often used by therapists and their newly
32:29lesbian clients um depending on the
32:34length of the relationship they might
32:36use limerance for a new relationship or
32:39codependency for a longer term one and
32:44um I haven't got the time today to go
32:47into um into that but it's
32:52it's about
32:56pathologizing the just
32:58um the diversity of
33:02relationships um and some people um do
33:06move fast and do feel intensely and do
33:09feel deeply women do naturally in their
33:13bodies have more oxytocin which is the
33:16bonding hormone um oxytocin um helps
33:20facilitate the merger between a mother
33:23and a baby and helps um with the falling
33:28in love process and the falling in love
33:30process is is extremely important in in
33:33all um romantic sexual relationships um
33:38because it's it's that bonding that
33:42gives strength for the the testing
33:46that's coming down the road and
33:49limerance um and falling in love um have
33:53exactly the same symptoms they have
33:56different Behavior um limerance is a a
34:01disorder um of in you know of
34:05inappropriate obsessive
34:08rumination um in a relationship where
34:12the feelings are not
34:13reciprocated so there there's something
34:16about making women mad and crazy and
34:20hysterical that just SMX of the old you
34:24know the old
34:26sexism and and uh you know lesbian love
34:31isn't a joke and the U-Haul and the bed
34:36death aren't particularly lesbian it
34:38happens all the time in straight
34:41relationships it's common um so that
34:45this is my um my request for us to be
34:50very cautious about um
34:54labeling other people's relationship and
34:58processes
34:59[Music]
35:00because psychology and popular
35:04psychology um I would be suspicious of
35:08as being rooted in
35:11sexism so um the later in life lesbians
35:14often been confused by a lack of
35:17representation or misrepresentation of
35:20lesbians as I've said then she meets
35:22popular psychology which is based on
35:24male and heterosexual Norms so the
35:27importance of an informed therapist is
35:30twofold um and then a second caution for
35:34therapists is that I believe that coming
35:36out is a
35:38trauma um and because the lack of
35:41representation results in confusion
35:43about
35:45sexuality um one of the um research
35:48questions I asked was about the you know
35:51participants whether they um have known
35:55or seen lesbians when growing up in the
35:571950s or 1960s and uh the responses were
36:02all similar no
36:04um no they didn't have any experience so
36:07they had limited experience which just
36:09wasn't relatable to the participant
36:12themselves
36:14um
36:15so the and the this lack of information
36:19wasn't just limited to straight
36:22therapists um either and uh I now I've
36:26now turned this into one of the
36:28exercises in my uh workbook um which I
36:33have called Cameo Cameo appearances of
36:37lesbians and and you do it on your life
36:40timeline so there's a a timeline drawn
36:43out and um and the point the exercises
36:46is actually very very few of us have
36:49much to put on that
36:51timeline um right so our lesbian
36:56relationship just some poor imitation of
37:00heterosexual
37:01relationships what do you
37:06think and
37:08then going going from you know what do
37:11you
37:13think going into what what do you
37:17feel because the you know the
37:22conditioning is is is that you know
37:26you're just a lesbian because you've not
37:28found the right man
37:31um uh or you're just passing time with
37:34women until until you find a man to
37:38settle down with um so just you know
37:42watch for your um
37:46unconscious bias being being a lesbian
37:50doesn't mean that there there isn't that
37:55somewhere in a small corner
37:57small dark corner of your psyche um be
38:01aware of your
38:02ableist and um lack of awareness
38:05guarding regarding disability and
38:08sickness in
38:10relationships um and your agism because
38:13relationships in the first half of Life
38:15can look different to relationships in
38:17the second half of life and and so
38:22on um yes I wanted to um again I we're
38:30getting towards about 40 minutes on this
38:32recording I think so
38:36um they there was a study done um around
38:41um
38:42delegitimization and women's perceived
38:46emotionality um and the hypothesis is
38:50that calling a person emotional is more
38:53delegitimizing than identifying that
38:56person's argument is
38:58wrong again you know it that that sort
39:01of realization is like yeah yeah I know
39:05that you know right right to the core of
39:09me um and women are more delegitimized
39:13than men when this
39:15occurs um so yeah I'll I'll let you read
39:19that slide in your own time
39:23but um I think that's an important part
39:27of what I'm putting forward
39:29today um also want to mention the the
39:32doubling effect um uh again I'm not sure
39:37that I agree with this particularly
39:38because it does rely on uh gender
39:41stereotypes but the doubling effect
39:44refers to the fact that in same-sex
39:46relationships certain features of
39:48feminine or masculine relationship
39:50Styles can be
39:52doubled um but summarized it might mean
39:55that gay women might be prone to merge
39:57in and talking and crying and loving and
40:00adopting several pets and gay men might
40:03have some communication problems sex
40:06outside the relationship and be more
40:08dependent of each other um so you can
40:10see there's there's some massive
40:12generalizations here and it it we're
40:14sort of on dodgy ground really um
40:17because these are assumptions um on the
40:21other hand I have noticed that women
40:23seem to be more prone to deep and
40:25intense attachments in same sex
40:28relationships and we do you know we have
40:30that
40:31um as we said you know that there's
40:34generally more oxytocin within a a
40:38woman's
40:40system um and uh so we're more likely to
40:43get some of the features of what's
40:45called
40:46codependency um but this is where a
40:48great deal of misunderstanding comes in
40:51in terms of therapeutic support of these
40:53women
40:55because my question question is is what
40:58if we don't pathologize the intensity of
41:00the relationship but accept
41:03it if we if we you know when we're
41:06calling it codependency or too
41:10intense what sort of a norm are we
41:13comparing it with who's it too intense
41:16for if the couple are fine with it why
41:19why is it too
41:20intense um it's it's really you know
41:25about working with the couple about what
41:29they find problematic rather than
41:33deciding because you've grown up with
41:36with these Norms about um how a
41:39relationship should be
41:43um you know when we're applying those
41:45Norms we're applying sexism and we're
41:47applying homophobia um relationships
41:51between two women are different and I I
41:55you know I stand by that and I think
41:58what if we don't pathologize what if we
42:03accept um and
42:07understand so
42:09um has my slide moved on no
42:14um has now okay just check I haven't
42:17missed
42:19one I have missed one okay so um a
42:23complaint about therapy for women who've
42:25had their heartbroken by a woman is that
42:27the therapist doesn't understand how
42:29different this is to straight
42:32heartbreak um and straight Norms about
42:35um Independence and codependence don't
42:37know where translate for lesbian
42:40relationships um and I think as well
42:43those of us who've come out later in
42:45life we're prone to apply our straight
42:47Norms to the lesbian relationships
42:50because that's that's what we know but
42:53if two consenting adult women engage in
42:55a depth of connection that's previously
42:58been impossible for them in their
42:59relationships with men isn't it somewhat
43:03discriminatory to throw up our hands in
43:05horror because it doesn't reflect the
43:07standard accepted individualized Norms
43:10of heterosexual
43:12relationships I think working with a
43:16huge number of women coming out later in
43:18life that some of these women carry some
43:21Shame about the experience of the lovely
43:25Confluence and merger Confluence is a is
43:28a Gish out word they you know every
43:31every process has a purpose merger as
43:34I've said is is very very important in
43:37the bonding um for romantic
43:39relationships sexual relationships for
43:43um you know mother and baby and so on
43:45this this you know I am you and you are
43:49me merg process is you know it's it's
43:53intoxicating it's wonderful it's lovely
43:55enjoy it don't miss sit doesn't last
43:58that long you know um and uh they they
44:02often present these women they often
44:04present in therapy believe there's
44:06something wrong with them because of the
44:08impact of the breakup or because you
44:11know they they were so
44:13intensely involved and um there's
44:16nothing wrong with them it's just that
44:19that particular combination of those two
44:22people um that's that's how it was
44:26experienced and felt and if that's how
44:29it was experienced and felt then of
44:31course it's devastating to end so
44:34straight therapists or therapists
44:36trained by Straight therapists in
44:38straight
44:39Psychotherapy in a society that's sexist
44:41and patriarchal they might just miss
44:44their Prejudice here and
44:46believe the client's perspective that
44:49their attachment style or personality is
44:51disordered I have had several clients
44:54come to me and tell me that you know
44:57that their attachment is disordered and
44:59you know and they you know they have
45:02certain personality disorders and and on
45:05all sorts and
45:07um I I I don't you know it turns out
45:10that is not the case at
45:14all um
45:16so we're beginning to learn that
45:19codependence is defined differently in
45:21different
45:22cultures and uh Western Society just
45:25loves Independence and
45:27individuality and uh some Eastern
45:29cultures are more Community Based there
45:31are some cultures that don't really have
45:33a word for I or self um so in recent
45:39years I've come I've come out not just
45:41as lesbian but I've also come out as
45:44disabled following severe illness and so
45:47there are multiple layers of
45:49codependence in my own relationship
45:52based on the necessity of the physical
45:55care and emotional care we care for each
45:57other we both have vulnerable parts and
46:01we
46:02both do anticipate um that the other
46:05person will find something difficult and
46:08sometimes preempt that or um help steer
46:12things so that the other person doesn't
46:14get upset that could be called
46:17codependency um that is very functional
46:21um for us in our
46:23relationship um to do that we both we
46:26both both skilled at doing that we've
46:28both had a lifetime experience of doing
46:31that um so for me it's not so much about
46:36doing that it's about the consciousness
46:39of that the discussion the communication
46:41the acknowledgement that that is what's
46:44happening um you know so what we can do
46:48in therapy with the lesbian couple is we
46:50can explore the processes of assuming
46:53Clairvoyance in the relationship and we
46:56can explore
46:57the impact of Confluence and merger and
47:00we can have some fun with it um but
47:04please therapists please respect the
47:07Dignity of these women um they're not
47:10hysterical they're not disordered they
47:12don't need to be put into institutions
47:15or
47:16asylums um it's phenomenally powerful to
47:20fall in love with a woman um for the
47:24first time if you didn't realize that
47:27you were gay and you know and then
47:31you're suddenly with the the right
47:33gender and I am sure some of the
47:36discrimination against women in same-sex
47:38relationships is based on jealousy and
47:42fear so um without being grandiose the
47:45conclusion I came to is is that one has
47:48to be emotionally mature to have a
47:50successful lesbian relationship and to
47:53be quite honest when I was
47:55younger I I wasn't mature enough to
47:57handle it um so as a therapist I began
48:02to create lesbian friendly therapy to
48:05take um a person's context into account
48:10um and you can see some of uh my adverts
48:15um on YouTube um I won't show this now
48:19but um I can put a link in the the
48:25notes okay so what about the clients um
48:30that therapists might have who've come
48:32out younger um those clients um you know
48:37invite you to explore the high alert
48:40that they'll be on um and you know that
48:44they will have experienced either
48:47directly or just in the soup of living
48:51death threats daily
48:53microaggressions I think it's it's
48:56sensible to assume trauma with any
48:58marginalized group even if that's not
49:02how the
49:03individual um names it or constructs it
49:06is to understand that um some of the
49:10processes um physiological psychosomatic
49:14and so on will be um within that person
49:18we know that marginalized groups do have
49:21more health problems um and higher
49:24stress levels and and so on um rainbow
49:27flags have not defeated homophobia any
49:30more than black lives matters has
49:32defeated racism and the importance of
49:35community in the healing Journey can't
49:38be underestimated so if you're a
49:41therapist and you're not part of the
49:43rainbow
49:44Community um obviously your compassion
49:48and your education about working with
49:50this demographic are essential but
49:53there's still not enough um do help them
49:56to find at least one person who gets it
50:00so that you know they can continue to
50:02have good therapy with you but um they
50:05will need to find Community as part of
50:07the healing
50:12Journey so my early injects around my
50:15own sexuality being born in the 60s came
50:18from the values of people born in the
50:2130s my parents whose own parents were
50:24born at the turn of the century
50:27and as I was looking in Cosmopolitan
50:30magazine in the
50:32hairdresses um you know it's just clear
50:34that that very little has changed the
50:38imperative on these titles are um you
50:42know that as a woman it's my job to have
50:44great sex and to understand the
50:47psychology of men who are seemingly not
50:50Ted with understanding the psychology of
50:53women um one of the downsides sides of
50:57the um 50s and 60s and the emergence of
51:01popular
51:02psychology um and text by do Spock for
51:05children or the classic for a married
51:08couple The Joy of Sex um one the
51:11historical sociological impact of that
51:14is that women then had to expand their
51:18capacity not just to keep their husbands
51:20and children
51:21wellfed um the woman's now being tasked
51:24with being their therapist of
51:26understanding child behavior and her
51:28husband's emotional and sexual needs so
51:31the birth of popular
51:34psychology became another
51:37chain um with uh with which women were
51:41bound up taking
51:43responsibility um for other people
51:46Beyond um what well beyond that that
51:50they need to so the message on the
51:53magazines I just picked out for this
51:56this um paper um are women need to study
52:00and learn how to catch and keep a man
52:03through sex so read this article do your
52:06homework catch a man and have sex
52:10otherwise he'll go away sex is based
52:14around men's need here a woman needs to
52:16know a man's favorite kinky moves not
52:20their own kinky moves not what turns
52:23them on but what a man's favorite is
52:26um good sex will capture a man's love
52:29the word capture is in there on a title
52:32of a
52:33magazine um in
52:372023 um another message there is is that
52:41men think about sex and women think
52:44about men thinking about them in a
52:47sexual
52:49way um you'll have to go back and look
52:51at the titles um I'll just say that
52:54again men think about sex and women
52:56think about men thinking about them in a
52:58sexual
52:59way um and uh that for all of this that
53:05um women need to have a particular type
53:08of body that needs to be constantly
53:12worked
53:13upon so
53:15psychology is born out of oppressive
53:18assumptions um and takes these
53:22assumptions far and wide until the
53:24population are seasoning their dialogues
53:26with judgmental
53:27terms um and no long you know no longer
53:31do people break up with a jerk but they
53:33separate from a narcissist and they're
53:36setting boundaries and um they're
53:40codependent and they're being gaslighted
53:43and and so on um again there's nothing
53:46wrong with the with understanding these
53:48Concepts and these terms but you know
53:51what one of my worries is that as
53:53therapists we can be a prejudiced
53:55psychotherapist therapist at work and a
53:58judgmental popular psychologist in our
54:00social life and rolling our eyes at red
54:03flags along with the rest of society
54:05without considering um how sexist and
54:10homophobic the roots of of some of these
54:14things
54:15are um you know we have a cultural
54:18obsession with relationship norms and
54:21it's likely that it's not just our
54:23clients that are asking themselves um
54:26about C trying to seek certainty in
54:29relationships it's it's probably the
54:32therapist as
54:34well um so I just have so much evidence
54:39around um the history of women's mental
54:41health so um just popped a small slide
54:46in here about women's
54:48hysteria um other signs of insanity are
54:51being the victim of domestic violence um
54:55one of the
54:57um treatments for being a victim of
55:00domestic VI violence that was in the DSM
55:04the diagnostic statistical manual um was
55:07labotomy so women are being abused by
55:13men which makes them hysterical so give
55:16them a labotomy um other signs of
55:19insanity were pregnancy grief or
55:23attraction to women um not having having
55:26enough sex with their husbands not
55:28smiling enough being interested in
55:30politics masturbating overusing their
55:33limited female mental Powers this is
55:37recent the lobotomy was
55:411930s okay so this is really recent okay
55:46so from heal self-help relationship
55:48books to the arrival of the Tik Tock
55:51armchair therapist um the popular
55:54psychology movement of the 60s which
55:56tasked women um with with yet more
56:01responsibility is now a hobby for us all
56:04and as I said earlier these rules uh
56:07relationship rules serve old dead white
56:10men um and help make money for you know
56:15relationship
56:16gurus um so what makes a good
56:21relationship um this cartoon's by a guy
56:24called Edward monton I love this
56:26cartoons are you normal no um so just as
56:31a little bit of homework after listening
56:34to me for nearly an hour what makes a
56:37good relationship are you having enough
56:39sex do you have friends and activities
56:41outside your relationships when did you
56:44last have a date night with your partner
56:45how long have you been together have you
56:48always been monogamous might you be
56:49codependent are you sure you've spotted
56:52any red
56:53flags um there isas the reason I've uh
56:57put that there is
56:59because I think that I really don't
57:02think that men sit down and go through
57:05this sort of lists um but uh I think
57:11that all of us should men women um and
57:13non-binary people um we should go
57:16through this to just um be aware of our
57:22unconscious bias and assumptions and his
57:25his you know second a second page of
57:29this what do you think's okay or not
57:32okay um I've put down same-sex
57:35relationships um right over just so that
57:38you can find things that you do have uh
57:41you know bias about I've um put at the
57:45end um sexual attraction to children and
57:49sexual attraction to animals um well
57:53the the attraction bits debatable but
57:56behavior um sexual behavior perhaps
57:59towards children that is wrong that is
58:02absolutely wrong sexual behavior towards
58:05children so I do have an assumption and
58:08a bias and a Prejudice and I you know
58:10I'm not asking anybody to get rid of
58:13their bias I'm asking you to be
58:16aware that you do somewhere for the line
58:21um but you might if you've got
58:24internalized homophobic phobia and
58:26you're gay and you you you
58:30know um you might be Drawing the Line in
58:32a place that puts you at odds with
58:35self-acceptance and self-care and self-
58:40protection so um I've covered my purpose
58:44and my motivation today and just to
58:47summarize um injection of cultural norms
58:51does not support the exploration of
58:54authentic contact for women
58:56um for the disabled for lesbians in fact
58:59for anyone um cultural norms best serve
59:03old dead white
59:04men um and engaging in the egotism of
59:08overthinking has never lent itself to
59:10improved relationship or improve contact
59:14there's something particular about
59:15romantic sexual Partnerships that means
59:18we abandon our core belief in just
59:21trusting the process or trusting our
59:25capacity to be okay with ourselves so
59:29the freedom to be who we are and evolve
59:31our awareness of the other is distinct
59:33and different to us helps us begin to
59:36undo some of the
59:38Discrimination within the inherited
59:41archaic and fidan
59:43psychology I drew a little map for the
59:47Journey of the later in life um
59:50process um so we start off on the left
59:53hand um top
59:56go across and then left hand bottom and
59:59go across and we finish on the right um
1:00:02so we don't see lesbians then we don't
1:00:05see
1:00:06ourselves and then we're in congruent
1:00:10which means we're at odds with ourselves
1:00:12as a dissonance of this injected
1:00:17invisibility um people say how did you
1:00:20not know but we've internalized that
1:00:23we're invisible so it's then the
1:00:27shame and self-doubt and self blame how
1:00:30did you not know how did you not know
1:00:33shame self-doubt self-blame managing
1:00:37others assumptions trying to deal with
1:00:39other people's questions there's
1:00:42self-criticism or lesbophobic criticism
1:00:46there's something wrong with me because
1:00:48I'm deeply
1:00:50attached um and uh you know this is the
1:00:55your own heterosexual bias and your own
1:00:59gender expectations in
1:01:02relationships and then to come you know
1:01:06to really arrive in a more comfortable
1:01:09place um as women perhaps we can begin
1:01:12to say I'm not the only one responsible
1:01:15for the relationship yes um that you
1:01:19know um that's that is the conditioning
1:01:23of women and um and it's reinforc L if
1:01:26you've had um long experience of
1:01:29heterosexual
1:01:31relationships so um I saw a a short bit
1:01:37of comedy by um Rosie Wilby the other
1:01:40day saying about how some woman came up
1:01:44to her at the end of a a show um for a
1:01:47book signing and said oh I'd love to be
1:01:50a lesbian you know um and uh and uh yeah
1:01:55it's not as fun as it sounds we've got a
1:01:59lot of work to do because of the um the
1:02:04bias and the Prejudice and the society
1:02:06that we live in and the internalized
1:02:09stuff um if you're gay um then it is
1:02:15wonderful to be in a
1:02:17relationship um with with the right
1:02:21person it is but um we've got a long way
1:02:24to go in terms of
1:02:27marginalization um my greatest teachers
1:02:30of course are my clients my research
1:02:34participants um and um you
1:02:38know I've learned so much from my wife
1:02:41um from my girls um from my clinical
1:02:45supervisor I'm so lucky have the support
1:02:48I have um and thank you thank you for
1:02:51supporting me and listening to me um and
1:02:54given that this is about a third of my
1:02:56paper you can see um how how I had a lot
1:03:01of problems I had to cut it down
1:03:04massively I hope I hope this helps you
1:03:08um feel
1:03:10understood um as well as really think
1:03:13about um how well you understand and
1:03:18support
1:03:24yourself for

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