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The Pro-Life Legal Case with Frank Beckwith - The Dr. Jeff Show Ep. 83 — Transcript

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0:00foreign
0:02welcome to another episode of the Dr
0:05Jeff Show podcast this show is available
0:07on Apple Google Spotify edify liftable
0:11or wherever you get your podcast please
0:14take a moment to go review the show so
0:17more people can find out about it
0:19because this is the show where I
0:21interview major thought leaders who show
0:24that world view changes everything my
0:27guest for today's podcast is professor
0:31and philosopher Dr Frank Beckwith Dr
0:35Beckwith is Professor of philosophy and
0:37church State studies at Baylor
0:38University he teaches undergraduate
0:41students graduate students doctoral
0:43students and has been published in all
0:47kinds of places this is a he's a major
0:49writer of academic articles and books
0:52Harvard Journal of Law and public policy
0:54the Journal of medical ethics the
0:56Journal of Social philosophy he's also
0:58written a number of books on all kinds
1:02of issues from law to politics to
1:04pro-life and in our conversation we're
1:06going to talk about Dr beckwith's
1:09responses to the Dobbs decision and some
1:12of the work that he did to help make
1:15good Arguments for pro-life viewpoints
1:17in his book defending life please
1:20welcome Dr Frank Beckwith to the show Dr
1:22Frank Beckwith welcome to the Dr Jeff
1:25Show podcast it's great to be here
1:27thanks for having me well you've been
1:28one of my favorite philosophers and you
1:31are also a professor at Baylor
1:32University I got my Master's Degree at
1:35Baylor University so I'm a Baylor grad
1:37sick and bears and you've taught there
1:40now how many how many years this
1:44let's see in beginning in Fall of 2022
1:47it'll be my 20th year 20th year so in 20
1:51years so your your older students now
1:53are going to be in their early 40s yeah
1:56and they've got careers of their own and
1:59the impact that you've been able to have
2:01through teaching in that program it just
2:03seems extraordinary to me it is I mean I
2:06think not so much about my undergrads
2:09although I've had many undergrads some
2:11of whom have gone on for to have great
2:13careers but we have a doctoral program
2:15in philosophy at Baylor and the thing
2:18that I find just astonishing is how well
2:21our PhD graduates have done in terms of
2:23their placement where they're at in
2:27terms of their professional status and
2:30appointments we've had
2:32philosophers who have left our program
2:34and have become Department chairs uh
2:38University Deans I mean it's it's so one
2:41of the things about Baylor
2:43at least in terms of our graduate
2:45program we have this sort of vision of
2:47placing our graduates in positions of
2:50leadership at Christian institutions and
2:53so it's been a it that's I think one of
2:55the most gratifying things
2:57you've got at Baylor you've got a
2:59historically Baptist University it's
3:02super famous now everybody wants to go
3:04there you know all of the students I
3:06talk to all want to go to they all want
3:08to go to Baylor and and as I think
3:12through the when my on my time there
3:16I think my fellow graduate students and
3:18I had a worry that having gone to Baylor
3:23would be a
3:25diffic would be make our careers more
3:27difficult
3:28because it because of its Baptist
3:32orientation sure in fact my
3:34undergraduate advisor when I told him I
3:37was going to Baylor because I could go
3:39there I could teach speech and Coach the
3:41debate team and go for free yeah because
3:43I was involved in the Collegiate debate
3:45program he said Baylor is nothing but a
3:48neo-fascist finishing school those were
3:51his exact those were his exact words
3:54uh about about the school and I
3:57I mean
3:59we had different relationships with our
4:01professors in those days you could talk
4:02back more and not get in trouble and so
4:05I kind of talked back at him a little
4:07bit but I just I just remember thinking
4:09is this is this the end of my career but
4:13what you're telling me is these students
4:15are coming out of this program and
4:16they're really rising to the top yeah
4:19now I the uh some of the other
4:21departments have done very well also but
4:24I can only speak for for philosophy I
4:27think one of the things that that
4:30I guess we didn't really expect but it
4:33but it's worked out this way that a lot
4:36of Christian institutions trust us in
4:39terms of uh the sort of graduates that
4:42we're putting out people that are
4:44committed Christians that
4:46they are looking to be affiliated with
4:49an institution that has a mission but
4:51they also want to be really good
4:53Scholars and so we we've been very
4:56fortunate in having grad students come
4:58in who have published in the leading
5:01journals who have
5:02received contracts from major Publishers
5:05and so we've developed this kind of
5:08interesting niche our Stu our graduates
5:11mostly get hired at Christian
5:13institutions but we've had some hired at
5:16secular institutions uh not too long ago
5:18we had we've had a few at State
5:21institutions we have two right now at
5:23Air Force Academy who are on the faculty
5:25there yeah yeah
5:27I love it I'm I'm very glad to hear that
5:29and we could probably talk Baylor all
5:31day but I really wanted to in the time
5:35that we have together uh talk about the
5:38Dobbs decision now the a little bit of
5:41background for people who are watching
5:43or listening is uh Frank you wrote a
5:47book many years ago called defending
5:50life
5:51and it was I hope I'm describing this
5:54accurately
5:55because it's been a long time since I
5:57read it but it was formative for me in
6:02making public arguments that have a a
6:06strong philosophical grounding
6:08defending life
6:11yeah it was a I published it in 2007 it
6:14with Cambridge University press which
6:16was really important for my career with
6:19the one of the two top presses or Oxford
6:22and Cambridge
6:23I was pleasantly surprised when they
6:26when they sent me a contract and made me
6:29the offer but the purpose of the book
6:31was to offer a sophisticated defense of
6:34the pro-life position that did not
6:37appeal to theology or scripture I do
6:41think that you can make theological and
6:43scriptural arguments I obviously have
6:45done that in other venues but this book
6:48was really presenting to a more secular
6:51public this is why pro-lifers hold the
6:54views that they do and so in the book I
6:57present a kind of brief
7:01analysis of why you can even argue about
7:04abortion and then I talk about the legal
7:07cases that time there was obviously no
7:09Dobbs it was Roe v Wade and Casey versus
7:12Planned Parenthood and then for the
7:14remainder of the book mostly dealing
7:16with philosophical Arguments for
7:18abortion rights and making a case as to
7:21why they they fail
7:23and the book has done very well for an
7:27academic book I think it's in its fifth
7:28printing wow it is probably the most
7:31cited
7:32pro-life academic book in in the
7:35literature it's helped me get a lot of
7:37citations on Google Scholar but uh the
7:42other thing is that since Dobbs has come
7:44out I've actually approached Cambridge
7:45by doing revised Edition and they've
7:48invited me to uh
7:51make a proposal so I'm I'm confident
7:55although not you know nothing is for
7:58certain but I'm I'm confident given how
8:00well the book did before that if that
8:03they will allow me to do a second
8:05edition which will deal with not only
8:08Dobbs but there's been a lot of other
8:09things written since then the climate in
8:12America has changed uh the level of
8:14discourse is not as polite as it was 15
8:17years ago so they're going to be aspects
8:20of of my case that are going to be
8:22slightly different and I'll have to also
8:23respond to critics people have written
8:25critical reviews of the book yes well
8:29all of that is
8:30I think that's just fascinating I'm so
8:33glad you have the opportunity to do that
8:34I I didn't know how to say this but I
8:37think your your book has been
8:41extraordinarily influential
8:43in the way that people think about life
8:46philosophically but also legally when
8:48you and I first met in fact you were
8:51you just went to law school on top of
8:52having your doctorate in philosophy you
8:54went to law school because you wanted to
8:56master the legal process or the legal
8:59arguments and so forth yeah 11 years
9:01after my PhD my wife let me go to law
9:03school I went to washu in St Louis and
9:07earned a degree which they no longer
9:09offer there anymore called a master of
9:11juridical studies where I took most of
9:14the required curriculum and then but
9:17unlike a regular law degree I had to
9:18write a dissertation and that was
9:20basically an academic degree in law and
9:23it's one of the at least in terms of
9:25professionally it was one of the best
9:26decisions I made because it opened up a
9:28lot of doors yeah yeah well when I
9:31talked to elected officials on any issue
9:34the main question they asked me is can
9:37you give me that argument without Bible
9:39verses yeah because I need to be able to
9:42make it to people
9:44who don't see the Bible as a source now
9:48that you can use the logic that flows
9:51from the Bible yeah but if you start
9:53quoting scripture verses
9:55from what people are telling me it makes
9:58your case weaker
10:00that's right public eye that's right I
10:03mean you have to consider your audience
10:05I mean think about
10:07the model of Saint Paul on Mars Hill the
10:11Apostle Paul is preaching to an Athenian
10:14audience that is not
10:17Jewish they don't accept the Hebrew
10:20scriptures and so he says I'm going to
10:23tell you about this Temple this unknown
10:26God that you have a temple to and and of
10:29course he basically describes God as the
10:31Creator right and quotes from that's
10:34right from the from their poets from the
10:36Greek poets right yeah and now but
10:38interestingly earlier in the the same uh
10:41chapter Acts chapter 17 Paul is in a
10:45synagogue he doesn't have that strategy
10:47he has a different strategy and that
10:49tells us something about how Christians
10:51ought to interact right if you're if
10:54you're with people that don't share our
10:57uh High view of scripture you're going
10:59to have to find other ways to to speak
11:01to them and I think Paul's the model
11:03yeah yeah start with where people are
11:05that's right and then move them toward
11:07truth well this is really
11:09this is a lot of fun to have the
11:12opportunity to sort of process through
11:15the Dobbs case
11:17ruling that the Roe v Wade and
11:21Planned Parenthood versus Casey
11:24decisions were wrongly decided
11:27that they are unconstitutional
11:30and that now we've got to
11:33take a different approach yeah so you
11:36you've got you can't you can't use the
11:38courts to bypass
11:41Congress congress makes the laws and if
11:45and now each state is having to make all
11:47of these decisions so I'd love for you
11:49to just talk about Frank when you
11:53first heard
11:54and we all sort of had a preview because
11:56this decision was leaked
11:59uh but when you were in law school
12:02it's about the time when when was that
12:05that was 2000 2001. okay so over 20
12:09years ago it's about the time when
12:11Samuel Alito was
12:13being yeah at that time Alito was a
12:18federal Appellate Court Judge I believe
12:20in the third circuit I'm not sure uh it
12:24was a couple years later that George W
12:26bush nominated him and he was confirmed
12:31but yeah so when I went to law school I
12:33actually took a course called
12:34reproductive control seminar
12:37which was taught by a professor named
12:40Susan Appleton who was very strongly
12:42pro-abortion
12:44and uh we went over this of course
12:46entirely on
12:48the the abortion cases and she was
12:51actually a very good professor even
12:52though she and I didn't agree she was
12:54very fair-minded and I will tell you I
12:56got the highest grade in the class and I
12:59got an award for it which was you know
13:01for me I was just I I really spoke well
13:03of her I mean she was yes but uh yeah so
13:07when I went to law school I actually got
13:09to meet Ruth Bader Ginsburg uh she
13:11visited uh a washu law school and I
13:15heard her speak and I actually spoke to
13:17her for about five ten minutes
13:18afterwards and even though I didn't
13:22don't agree with her Judicial philosophy
13:24it was an honor to be able to meet a
13:27member of the Supreme Court yeah yeah so
13:30so way back then yeah is when some of
13:32these things were starting to be decided
13:35yeah you know Samuel Alito was on he's
13:37written a lot of decisions yeah but it's
13:40been the lead author in a lot of
13:41decisions
13:42yeah but would you say this is the most
13:44consequential decision that he's oh yes
13:47yeah but by far no matter who who would
13:49have written it would have been the most
13:51consequential for their career so what
13:54makes it so I mean amazing to me is that
13:58you have to go back to Roe v Wade so
14:00like go if let's go back to Roe and and
14:03why was it Con why was that
14:04controversial to begin with well Justice
14:07Harry Blackman who wrote the majority in
14:09row had to if he wanted to get a right
14:12to abortion found in the Constitution he
14:15had to make a case for it so how do you
14:17make a case for something that's
14:18actually not in the Constitution right
14:20so you read the Bill of Rights there's
14:21nothing that explicitly says that
14:25there's a right to abortion like there
14:26is a right to freedom of speech or
14:28religious free exercise
14:30to do that he has to say that there is
14:34there are unenumerated rights
14:37what's an unenumerated right well it's a
14:40right that's not written down and
14:43you know I you could have a right that's
14:45not written down so so for example
14:48um there are uh
14:51assumptions that are made in the very
14:55existence of a legal regime so imagine
14:57for some strange reason uh the state of
15:01Colorado said we're going to make
15:02marriage illegal
15:04right even though there is no right to
15:07marriage in the Constitution
15:09the Supreme Court I think would
15:11rightfully say no in order to have a
15:13human civilization uh people have to
15:17have the right to join together and
15:20beget children and to create families
15:23this is just part of what we presuppose
15:24as part of the infrastructure of our
15:26civilization and every civilization so
15:29so I I you know I know a lot of legal
15:33conservatives want to say there are no
15:35unenumerated rights I think that's a
15:37mistake I think that there are
15:39okay there are on a new and like that
15:41that that and they're part of what our
15:45part what Lido calls our nation's
15:47traditions and history so so so what
15:50what Justice Blackman did in in Roe v
15:52Wade he said well there's this
15:54unenumerated right to abortion that's
15:57tied to another unenumerated right the
15:59right of privacy
16:01where do they get that well from a case
16:03called Griswold versus Connecticut which
16:05said that there's a fundamental right to
16:09contraception
16:10and so uh
16:13the problem though with abortion
16:16is that unlike contraception and and in
16:19Griswold the court tied it to the
16:21intimacy of married life and you can
16:24sort of see that yeah so there could be
16:26an unenumerated right to that but here's
16:28the problem with abortion there's a
16:30third party the fetus it's not a right
16:34that simply exercised in terms of a
16:36self-regarding act it involves a being
16:39whose nature we share so what does
16:43Blackman do he says that the court is
16:47not going to decide whether you know he
16:51says well experts disagree about when
16:53life begins so the court at this point
16:56in the development of man's knowledge is
16:58not ins is not a position to speculate
17:01so he basically kicks the can down the
17:04road he says that there is that we're
17:05not deal with this and besides uh all
17:09the laws that prohibited abortion
17:11because remember that when rovie was
17:13inside 1973 if you just went back one
17:15decade to 63 every state in the United
17:18States prohibited abortion in some form
17:22or another in fact very few exceptions
17:24most virtually all of them had life of
17:26the mother
17:27exceptions but in the mid 60s or mid 60s
17:30early 70s states start
17:33decriminalizing abortion but not
17:35everywhere they were maybe 12 13 states
17:37that had
17:39uh you know allowed for liberalization
17:42but the with the exception of New York
17:44and Colorado virtually all of them were
17:46still quite conservative in in what they
17:48permitted
17:50so what does Blackman do
17:53to get to get a right to abortion he
17:56says well the anti-abortion laws that
17:59were in place for nearly a hundred years
18:02in the U.S were originally
18:07put in place to protect women from
18:09dangerous operations not to protect
18:12unborn life what we've learned since
18:14that decision in fact he relied and this
18:18is something a leader brings up in dogs
18:20for like 15 pages that's right so he he
18:24points out what Lido points out is that
18:26black men relied on two articles
18:30for the whole history of American
18:32abortion law they were written by a
18:34lawyer named Cyril means who was who was
18:37an attorney for the national abortion
18:39rights action
18:40and so Alito points out in Dobbs that
18:44that entire grounding of the purpose of
18:47abortion laws was fabricated that in
18:51fact if you go back and look at the
18:53reasons why those laws were put in place
18:55they were put there primarily to protect
18:58unborn life and of course also to
19:01protect women from
19:02you know illegal and dangerous
19:04uh operations but they but they were
19:07primarily there to uh defend and protect
19:11unborn human beings and so part of the
19:14Dom's opinion by Alito is to show that
19:18the entire grounding of Roe v Wade
19:21was flawed that the historical arguments
19:25were entirely Fabrications and most
19:28people who were Scholars at the time
19:30knew that and so much of what Alito
19:34relies on in terms of scholarship a lot
19:37of us have known about for a long time
19:39in fact a lot of the scholars that Alito
19:42cites in his opinion I cited in
19:45defending life 15 years ago but I I
19:47wasn't unique I mean there were lots of
19:49other people who did the same thing so a
19:51lot of this is stuff that people have
19:53known about for quite some time
19:57yes and it's probably a good idea
20:00because this is so consequential to font
20:04for for people who are watching or
20:05listening to find that decision
20:09and read it yes
20:11and it's uh depending on how you print
20:13it out it's
20:1580 Pages including all of the citations
20:17I guess yeah and of course legal opinion
20:20Supreme Court opinions it's 80 pages but
20:22the words are big so so I tell it to my
20:25students I teach I teach several law
20:27common law classes at Baylor uh and I
20:30tell them when I said you know it says
20:3175 pages but it's really you can really
20:34Breeze through this yeah the words are
20:36big as in the type sizes the types yeah
20:39that's right not not length of words
20:41there are some long words but generally
20:42yeah typeset is pretty large
20:45I think people will be surprised at the
20:48fact that they can read it and now we
20:52we've had on this show we've had
20:54different people who've been involved in
20:57the pro-life movement some of whose
21:00focus is caring for moms who are in
21:04in unplanned pregnancies
21:06others who are more focused on the uh
21:10debunking abortion arguments but in the
21:14in the time that we have I wonder if if
21:16we could just talk a little bit about
21:18what this likely means
21:21for the future of laws related to
21:25abortion
21:26in the United States because it seems
21:29like we're sort of moving from a nation
21:32where we're one of the most permissive
21:34along with North Korea China yeah you
21:37know now that I'm trying to be
21:40hyperbolic that's literally the case
21:41there are only a handful of nations with
21:44laws that were as liberal as ours now to
21:47where we're
21:49in the different states anyway going to
21:51be a little bit more aligned with what
21:52most other nations
21:54have in terms of their abortion law but
21:56I'd love to just hear you speculate
21:58about
21:58that's right so what Roe v Wade
22:00essentially did obviously not really
22:02Dobbs essentially did was to say that
22:04there is no constitutional right to
22:06abortion but that doesn't mean that
22:08states can't have liberal laws as you as
22:11you alluded to so I think you're going
22:13to find
22:14different states are going to be all
22:16over the place so States like California
22:18New York probably Colorado
22:21states that tend to be more blue rather
22:26than red are going to have more liberal
22:29abortion laws in fact
22:31I think New York's most recent law which
22:34they put in place anticipating Roe v
22:36Wade being overturned is actually more
22:38radical than rophie Wade wow uh and I
22:42suspect that's the case in California
22:43although I've not read read their
22:45statute
22:46so so what you'll have is fights in
22:49every state debates in in different
22:51states now certain States like Texas
22:53Mississippi states that tend to be more
22:56red you're going to probably have
22:58greater limitations on the right to
23:00abortion uh interesting cases will be
23:03the the more purple States the ones that
23:06may have more liberal leadership but the
23:11uh or divided leadership but the con the
23:15state population is let's say more red
23:18like maybe Pennsylvania that's an
23:20interesting case right so Pennsylvania
23:22where you have people that uh the state
23:25typically will vote
23:27um
23:27lean a little bit liberal but generally
23:30on moral issues the most of the state
23:34accepting Pittsburgh and Philadelphia
23:36tends to be more like Alabama in fact it
23:39reminds me of an old saying by uh I
23:42think it was Jim car James Carville who
23:44said that uh I don't want to do I do
23:47have a cardinal impression I'm not going
23:48to try it here but Carville said said
23:50that you know I'll explain I'll explain
23:52Pennsylvania to you it's uh two New
23:55Yorks with an Alabama in between you
23:57know and that's yeah so they're going to
23:58be States like that right where where
24:00there are going to be really big debates
24:03and uh it will probably involve some
24:06kind of compromise at the end of the day
24:08because political officials will want to
24:11sort of move past the issue and then
24:12you'll have cases like Michigan which is
24:15a lot like Pennsylvania where in this
24:18right now we I think we have an attorney
24:19general and governor who are both very
24:22strongly pro-abortion uh but there's a
24:25law that uh that now because roevaway
24:30has been overturned a law that's pre-roe
24:32v Wade that severely restricts abortion
24:35that they don't want to enforce right
24:38but they probably don't have the numbers
24:40in the legislature to
24:42actually write a new law so what they're
24:45doing it my understanding is the
24:47attorney general is is actually going to
24:49the Supreme Court of of Michigan
24:51making the argument that the law
24:54actually is inconsistent with Michigan's
24:56Constitution
24:57the attorney general for Michigan from
25:00Michigan yes wow so okay you know it's
25:03one of those things where there there
25:05may be something in the Michigan
25:07Constitution that maybe has a vague
25:09right of privacy and she may want to
25:11argue oh that implies the right to
25:13abortion something like that was done
25:15actually in Kansas I think about five or
25:18six years ago Kansas of all places
25:20actually their Supreme Court says that
25:23there's a Kansas constitutional right to
25:25abortion and right now there's in Kansas
25:28I think a referendum to try to have a
25:31constitutional amendment to overturn
25:33that Kansas Supreme Court opinion yeah
25:36yeah
25:37so now instead of having one National
25:41battle so to speak you've got 50
25:45State battles
25:47talk to you know Colorado is a this
25:49weird mix of libertarian and liberal
25:51yeah so
25:54it's almost it's it wouldn't surprise
25:56anybody who's lived here for a while
25:58that Colorado was a Battleground in the
26:01legalization of abortion to begin with I
26:05think it was the first state to
26:06liberalize abortion yeah I think in 67
26:09yeah
26:11okay so talk to people in States like
26:15Colorado
26:16or other states because there there's
26:20going to be a difference Arkansas is
26:22going to have a different kind of battle
26:23Kansas it's probably going to have some
26:25change over in their leadership and
26:27they're going to have a different kind
26:28of battle but then you've got States
26:30like Colorado Massachusetts New York
26:34you know any really any other New
26:37England most New England states
26:39California you know then you've got
26:41California Oregon Washington Nevada it's
26:45going to be a very different kind of
26:47issue yeah I think that I even think
26:50there's going to be differences between
26:51let's say a Colorado and a California in
26:54this regard you mentioned Colorado's
26:55libertarian leaning
26:57you know I think pro-lifers
27:01will have greater success in a place
27:03like Colorado for things like conscience
27:05protection for for Physicians or uh less
27:10Draconian regulations on crisis
27:13pregnancy centers simply because of the
27:15libertarian intuitions that people have
27:17right I mean it's uh what I mean by that
27:19is that you know Libertarians who may be
27:22let's say pro-abortion they also
27:24would be inclined to protect Physicians
27:27who don't want to participate in
27:28abortions because they hold a very
27:30strong view of of personal Liberty and
27:32they would also extend that to to
27:34Physicians on the other hand people that
27:36tend to be more kind of progressive left
27:39of center they they see abortion as
27:42quote unquote health care and this is
27:44why they don't they've actually if if
27:47you've been paying care I just noticed
27:49this was actually brought to my
27:50attention about a a month ago I was at a
27:52conference and a another pro-life
27:54Professor told me she she said if you
27:57ever noticed you don't hear the word
27:58pro-choice anymore
28:00it's it's now uh access to abortion
28:05I noticed it she said the reason for
28:07that is that if you you if they use the
28:09language of pro-choice that means that
28:10choice would also extend to people that
28:13don't want to cooperate with it like the
28:15physician or the nurse and so they want
28:17to they don't they want them to be
28:19coerced to cooperate because they
28:21believe that this is a good yes so I
28:23think that we have to be I think in
28:25certain places like Colorado it's going
28:27to be conscious protection will probably
28:29be
28:31um you know have a greater chance of
28:33being protected I would even say places
28:35like Massachusetts and maybe even uh you
28:39know maybe Connecticut just because
28:41there's this older kind of religious
28:44culture you know a lot of Catholics live
28:46there so so there's a so to give an
28:49example that's right so Massachusetts
28:51actually the the year I think that
28:53Colorado
28:54passed a um a uh I think it was 2012 or
28:59maybe in 2016 there was something on the
29:01ballot for uh right to
29:03physician-assisted Suicide Mass
29:05Massachusetts didn't vote for it
29:07and you think well Massachusetts is
29:09really liberal what happened well it's
29:11because they still have a lot of that
29:13residual religious culture there yeah
29:16um so at least that's my theory on it
29:18okay but things change uh but I do think
29:21you're going to have dip as you know
29:22different fights in different states and
29:25um I think in in certain States like
29:27California New York I think the battle
29:29is really going to be over whether
29:32Christian institutions or even
29:35non-Christian institutions that let's
29:37say share pro-life values are they going
29:39to be coerced by the state to cooperate
29:42whether pro-life Physicians and nurses
29:45and other health care Personnel are they
29:47going to be uh given the Liberty to say
29:51no I won't cooperate that's I think
29:53going to be the battle in those places
29:55Okay so
29:57in a place like Colorado we could start
29:58with something like conscience
30:00protecting the conscience yes uh
30:03objections based on conscience
30:06and then move from there to
30:10you know abortion facility or
30:12regulations maybe I'm just trying to
30:14think of what the path is toward having
30:18a more pro-life view in a state where
30:20you're not likely to get an actual limit
30:22on the number of weeks in utero or
30:26abortions I I think that that's right I
30:28do think the matter now is protecting
30:32our institutions uh you know private
30:35schools
30:37hospitals Health Care Facilities
30:39Physicians and nurses and then crisis
30:43pregnancy centers
30:45we saw this attempt I think a year or
30:48two ago in California
30:49the California legislature signed by the
30:52governor that basically would have
30:55hamstrung crisis pregnancy centers from
30:58uh speaking uh their views and I think
31:02it was a requirement that cpcs actually
31:04had to refer
31:06I remember this case and yeah it was
31:08from uh California yeah right yes I
31:11remember the I remember the case so but
31:13the Supreme Court ruled on that that's
31:14right and they ruled in favor of the
31:16cpcs a form of coerced speech yeah so
31:20there's actual that's actually a
31:22legitimate
31:23yeah way to to approach the issue as
31:25well
31:26yeah did you ever think this is going to
31:28happen in your lifetime
31:31I mean I it was a part of me that hoped
31:34and I
31:36would have I I would have never I mean
31:38there
31:39I remember when Dobbs was decided I mean
31:42I remember where I was so uh I was
31:44actually in the Dallas airport uh
31:46waiting to board I was my flight to Waco
31:50I had just given a couple of talks in
31:52Grand Rapids Michigan and I was sitting
31:55next to a uh a professor from Cal
31:58Baptist who was at the same conference
32:00an economist and we were sitting there
32:03and we saw up on the screen movie Wade
32:06is overturned and he texted his daughter
32:10who had read my book defending life and
32:13he said Roe v Wade is overturned and I'm
32:16sitting next to the guy who wrote that
32:17book that you read about and so I was
32:19like I actually was choked up about it
32:21it was it was moving but the thing that
32:24I turned to him and I said I said Andy
32:27do you realize that Roe v Wade began
32:29here in Dallas it was a case involving
32:33uh a woman Norma mccorvey in Texas and
32:38the attorney that was representing the
32:40state was a gentleman named Wade who was
32:43the district attorney of Dallas
32:46who would have prosecuted Lee Harvey
32:48Oswald if he had lived so I mean it was
32:51interesting to be actually in the place
32:54where it began and to hear the news
32:55there I think
33:00it's going to be interesting Jeff in
33:03terms of
33:04how it's going to change the way we talk
33:06about this because the other side on
33:08this has never really had to defend
33:11itself in public in a way that's
33:15meets the pro-life arguments head on so
33:18we're going to see in legislatures all
33:20over the country debates uh
33:23assemblyman Senators attorney generals
33:27Governors actually making a case in
33:30public and it's going to have to be
33:32recorded and it'll be on YouTube and I I
33:35think that we we I don't know where it's
33:37going to lead to right I mean I think we
33:39have the better arguments I think we
33:41have the right case I think we have the
33:44correct moral position uh
33:47is the country ready to accept that yeah
33:50and that's so you know I don't know I
33:53mean it's it this is Uncharted Territory
33:56yeah
33:58help somebody who's watching or
34:00listening right now and I know a lot of
34:02people like to listen to the show when
34:04they're riding around in the car or
34:06so I want to give some hooks to hang on
34:08hang on to so let's say somebody's out
34:11for a walk right now
34:12and they actually have a friend who says
34:15oh this is
34:16this is about access to health care
34:18that's what it is that's the core issue
34:21so they say they say that over lunch and
34:25you've got just a few minutes to sort of
34:27give them a different perspective what
34:29do you say yeah well that's it
34:32I'll tell you that how I've responded to
34:35to that in my own conversations
34:37uh are you saying
34:40that pregnancy is a disease because to
34:44say that abortion is Health Care is to
34:46say that pregnancy is an illness now
34:49it's not to say that people don't get
34:50ill when they're pregnant it's but that
34:53doesn't mean that pregnancy itself is
34:55the illness imagine when a woman finds
34:57out she's pregnant does she have the
34:59same response that she has when she
35:01finds out she has cancer
35:07she sometimes is troubled by it right
35:09it's on it may be unexpected she may
35:11have joy I don't know of anyone who's
35:13ever gotten cancer who's been Overjoyed
35:15yeah so there's something about it look
35:17at my cancer test so posting it on so
35:20again so I think that by by raising it
35:23that way it's to say that there's
35:25another party involved with this and
35:27that's why we respond much differently
35:30to a pregnancy than we do
35:33to all sorts of other physical
35:37um
35:37states that we can be in uh and we
35:41clearly don't do that if we if we're
35:43diagnosed with the tumor or something or
35:45we find out we have arthritis or
35:48something like that we so so there's
35:50something different about
35:53um uh different about the question of
35:56abortion and it also means in a weird
35:59way if in fact
36:01if you want if let's say someone bites
36:03the bullet and say yes pregnancy is a
36:04disease that means that every single
36:06human being who's ever come into
36:07existence
36:09is an illness I mean that just is it's
36:12an astonishing claim right that none of
36:15us is entitled to be alive that the only
36:18reason why we're alive is that somebody
36:21willed us
36:23that there's not that we're not gifts to
36:25be received
36:27but objects
36:29under the total will of another and I
36:32just that that I think is dehumanizing
36:35yeah that's not to say again that people
36:38don't struggle over this that there
36:39aren't difficult pregnancies and not
36:42suggesting that at all but I think that
36:44we that we have to look at
36:47pregnancy as it really is it's it's the
36:50bringing into existence or it's the
36:53existence a being has been brought into
36:55existence that is radically dependent on
36:58us and that radical dependency doesn't
37:00end after birth right right that's right
37:03uh and I mean there's something about I
37:08mean Parenthood that just is different
37:11from other relationships
37:13right so I mean think about the ways in
37:15which we actually use Parenthood to
37:18describe other relationships we we use
37:20analogies right we say you know he
37:22treats him like a father treats a son
37:25right she mothers her right even if it's
37:29not
37:30the mother yeah yeah right so so I mean
37:32it's it's part of the infrastructure of
37:34Our Lives to think of that that
37:36relationship of dependency uh so to sort
37:40of so if someone raises that that's how
37:43I would respond I would say well you're
37:45saying that pregnancy is a disease I
37:48think most people would say no
37:51now it's not to say that there aren't
37:53diseases or ailments that accompany that
37:56but that pregnancy in and of itself
37:57doesn't seem to be right yeah yeah
38:00that's a that's a fantastic Point
38:03um I think most people that I've talked
38:05to about this have engaged on the merits
38:07of the argument
38:09but I I've been surprised I was
38:12surprised Stephanie and I had a
38:13conversation with a guy who said
38:15basically here's what it comes down to I
38:18was raised by a single mom I basically
38:21raised myself she didn't care for me and
38:23everything would have been better off if
38:25I had just been aborted
38:27yeah and I I thought okay I can
38:30understand why he would have no respect
38:32for the life of an unborn child he
38:34doesn't have respect for his own life
38:37yeah and of course that changed the
38:39nature of our conversation to trying to
38:42you know yeah address the value of his
38:44life but but the question then is that
38:47don't you think that people can be
38:49mistaken about their own lives
38:52I mean the guy that's standing on Golden
38:54Gate Bridge about to jump his view of
38:57his life is that it's worthless and we
39:00don't do we really want to tell people
39:02that that's an appropriate way to think
39:04about something like that I mean we can
39:07be mistaken about ourselves right I mean
39:08we do have this view in our general
39:11culture that people sort of subjective
39:14Judgment of their own selves ought not
39:16to be challenged but to me that's
39:18actually falls right yeah I mean people
39:21can be mistaken I take it from a fellow
39:23human being I've been mistaken about you
39:26know the the my I've had exaggerated
39:28views of myself and a you know
39:31diminished views of myself right we all
39:33go through that that's part of the
39:34struggle of being a human being but we
39:37all recognize the intrinsic goodness of
39:40life in fact even this the gentleman you
39:42just mentioned I mean in a sense he's
39:43saying that you know his life would have
39:46been better if Circumstances had been
39:50different right but doesn't that tell
39:51you that there's something actually
39:53worthy about it to begin with
39:56so I yeah I mean it's yeah people
40:01will will oftentimes appeal to their own
40:04subjectivity but sometimes we're just
40:06mistaken about ourselves
40:08yeah well this is really good you so
40:12I've got a practical question for you
40:14because we have a couple of minutes left
40:15you've got students coming back to
40:17Baylor this fall
40:19um
40:20the Dobbs case was decided yeah during
40:23the summer time
40:25what are the discussions going to be on
40:27your campus and in your classes do you
40:29think interesting question I Am The
40:31Faculty advisor for bears for life and I
40:35one of the
40:37things I'm going to actually recommend
40:38or suggest to to the students in in the
40:42group that maybe we should have a like a
40:44public event about it in my own classes
40:47I'm actually teaching
40:49um a graduate seminar religion law and
40:51politics and then an undergraduate class
40:52called Philosophy of Law
40:55I I'm gonna probably include something
40:58about it in um
41:00Philosophy of Law I haven't put together
41:02my my syllabus yet I usually don't in
41:05that class I have another class called
41:07philosophy and the Constitution where we
41:08actually spend three weeks on abortion
41:11but given the unique circumstances I
41:14think I'm gonna maybe include a little
41:16bit uh about that I have a section in
41:19the class about constitutional
41:20interpretation so I'll probably find a
41:22place there The Graduate seminar uh
41:25maybe I haven't I haven't quite decided
41:28yet although I've had a couple of my of
41:30my grad students kind of egging me on to
41:32to maybe include something but
41:36definitely in in the spring when I cheat
41:37contemporary moral problems uh we will
41:40have a probably two to three weeks just
41:43on on abortion right right yeah yeah you
41:46don't want to force it into the syllabus
41:48just because it's a current issue but at
41:51the same time it's really really
41:53important for people to read judge
41:55alito's words and also to read the
41:58dissenting views
42:01uh because they're quite strident it is
42:05it's it's an amazing uh descent uh and
42:09we could obviously talk talk about that
42:11I'm actually thinking about
42:13working on an academic article on The
42:16Descent I was invited to contribute to a
42:20special issue on Dobbs uh of the journal
42:24the new bioethics and they they asked me
42:27what would you want to write on and I'm
42:29thinking about doing it on on that
42:31because I I suspect there aren't going
42:33to be a lot of people writing a lot
42:34about The Descent and I think it's worth
42:36dealing with because the rhetoric in it
42:39is much different than Roe v Wade
42:41majority opinion you see the real
42:43cultural shift in the way in which uh
42:46Breyer Kagan and sotomayer uh go after
42:49uh justice Alito and defend the right to
42:52abortion yeah
42:54well as you mentioned this is one of the
42:58most consequential things to happen
43:00during our lifetime
43:01something I never imagined would
43:03actually take place I like you I had
43:05hoped
43:06but I wasn't really
43:10optimistic that it could actually take
43:12place and here you have people who
43:15trained as attorneys to be focused on
43:18being a textualist originalist you know
43:22the particular focus on the Constitution
43:24worked their way up through their
43:26careers get to the place where they
43:28could be appointed to the United States
43:30Supreme Court
43:32every one of those steps along the way
43:34could have resulted in an opposite
43:37sort of you know Samuel Alito could have
43:39retired as an appellate judge and never
43:41been heard from again
43:42but we have to be prepared I think and
43:45you know I think his men of faith we
43:48have to think this way
43:49perhaps God will use me and I have to
43:54live every day in the belief that he
43:57will and then let him
43:59determine the outcomes
44:01yeah I mean I think you have to be open
44:04to where the Lord is is leading you uh
44:08and you know they're going to be
44:10conversations in churches and family
44:13gatherings and I think
44:15you know the one thing as pro-lifers and
44:18it's not fair what I'm going to say that
44:21we we have a I think an um a reputation
44:26of being harsh and overly critical which
44:30I think is not not true I most people
44:31that I know that work in the pro-life
44:33movement are amazingly
44:36careful caring good people but you know
44:40the media gives a certain portrayal of
44:42us so I think we have to
44:44you know be careful with our words be
44:46kind to people when people are angry at
44:49us you know that could be somebody that
44:51may have had an abortion in their and
44:53and they're they're they're wrestling
44:55with internal guilt they could be a man
44:58that who maybe encouraged his wife or
45:02girlfriend to have an abortion and you
45:04don't so we we have to remember that
45:05there that sometimes the anger against
45:08us isn't always
45:10in fact I think it's virtually never a
45:12sort of intellectual thing I think it's
45:14it's emotional so we have to we have to
45:16be you know I think
45:18compassionate to people yeah yeah
45:21Frank uh this has been a really amazing
45:24discussion thanks for taking time to be
45:25on the show today thanks for having me
45:28thank you to my guest today Dr Frank
45:30Beckwith for joining on the Dr Jeff Show
45:32podcast so you can find out more about
45:35Dr beckwith's work and philosophy law
45:38politics abortion and more through his
45:41website which is Francis
45:44beckwith.com the Prophet Jeremiah said
45:48to the people stand at the crossroads
45:50and look ask for the ancient paths ask
45:53where the good way is and walk in it and
45:55you will find rest for your souls
45:58this conversation today with Frank has
46:00demonstrated that when we go back to
46:03God's truth and we learn to articulate
46:06it in a way that makes sense to our
46:07society
46:09we can not only Advance truth we can
46:12also help reach the minds and hearts of
46:14our friends and Neighbors
46:16see you next week
46:22podcast I'm excited to be releasing the
46:25new book this is the book I wrote during
46:28my cancer Journey called Truth changes
46:30everything it's the book that I thought
46:33if this isn't the last thing you ever
46:34get to write this is what I want to
46:36write about I want to write about truth
46:39I think at the core of all of the
46:41cultural conflicts we have today is a
46:43battle over truth I mean a battle
46:45between the idea of capital T truth the
46:48truth actually exists and can be
46:50discovered and the idea of small tea
46:52truth that ultimate truth cannot be
46:53known truth is up to the individual one
46:56side says seek the truth the other side
46:58says speak your truth if you face this
47:01in your own life
47:02the question as I wrote the book is all
47:05right so what do you do there's really a
47:07battle you can really see the truth
47:09exists
47:10what's the most helpful thing so I went
47:14back into history and I just wrote the
47:16book telling stories of amazing people
47:19who were Jesus followers who believed
47:22that Jesus is the truth and as a result
47:25of that belief they changed the world
47:27even in times of great crisis when it
47:30seemed that the world is going to come
47:32to an end
47:33that sounds like the kind of book you'd
47:34like to read I'd love for you to
47:36pre-order a copy wherever you get your
47:38books and if you will take a picture of
47:40your receipt and send it to me at Jeff
47:43summit.org then I'm going to send you a
47:46little signed book plate and then you
47:48can stick that inside your book when it
47:50arrives you'll have a signed copy of the
47:53book so the book is truth changes
47:55everything and my email is Jeff
47:57summit.org pre-order it please and then
48:00just send me the receipt and we'll take
48:02it from there
48:05listeners I want you to know that our
48:08podcast is on edify which is a truly
48:10powerful app that brings together
48:11thousands of the best Christian podcasts
48:14in one place for your listening
48:16enjoyment you can download it at edify
48:19edifi dot app be sure to share this show
48:23if you have enjoyed listening to it and
48:26leave a review if you would on the site
48:28where you download the show that helps
48:31more people know about the Dr Jeff show
48:33and I'll look forward to seeing you next
48:35week

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