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The Porn Addiction Crisis No One Wants to Talk About – Dr. K — Transcript

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0:00Anytime we watch pornography, masturbate
0:02and get sexual stimulation, our negative
0:04emotions like fear and anxiety, that
0:06part of your brain just gets suppressed.
0:08And this is where people get into a lot
0:09of trouble because suppressed emotions
0:10just grow over time. So the more guilty
0:12I become, the more of a loser I become,
0:14the harder it is to date, the worse I
0:16feel about myself, the more I fall into
0:17pornography. So this becomes a
0:19neurological cycle. But here's the real
0:22problem. All addictions are on the rise.
0:24And this is why
0:25Dr. K is back and the Harvard trained
0:28psychiatrist is breaking down modern
0:30mental health, addiction, and the
0:32non-traditional ways to break away from
0:34their cycles. There's lots of stuff
0:36happening around us that affects our
0:38lives that we have no control over. For
0:40example, because of the dating and
0:41mating crisis, we no longer have sexual
0:44connections, emotional connections, and
0:46there's a part of the brain that is
0:48getting starved because sex is so
0:49important. So, there's something missing
0:51in our lives, and that's what is
0:53necessary for addiction to grow. And
0:54this is creating huge problems because
0:56it's sort of like if I fill up your
0:58stomach with unhealthy food. You don't
1:00have any micronutrients, but you're not
1:02going to crave broccoli. So that's
1:03what's happening in our society. We're
1:04using porn as a substitute for
1:06relationships. And that's creating these
1:08really strong societal pressures,
1:10including a mass extinction event
1:12because we've got 32-year-olds who do
1:14not know how they're going to ever have
1:15children. Men are getting really, really
1:17angry. There's like this incel movement.
1:18Like women feel safer with a wild bear
1:21than they do with a man. I mean there's
1:22there's a lot that I'm thinking about
1:24like what do you do about this?
1:25The whole reason we get trapped in a
1:27cycle of addiction is because we have
1:28one solution to one problem. The moment
1:31that we create a second solution, a lot
1:33of things change and we'll get to that.
1:35What what about psychedelics?
1:36So here's the real problem with
1:38psychedelics.
1:41Listen to my regular listeners. I know
1:43you don't like it when I ask you to
1:44subscribe at the start of these
1:45conversations. I don't like saying I
1:46don't like it being in there. None of us
1:47like it. It's frustrating. Do you know
1:50what's also frustrating? It's also
1:51frustrating when I go into the back end
1:53of the YouTube channel and I see that
1:5456% of you that listen frequently to
1:56this podcast haven't yet subscribed and
1:58so many of you don't even know that you
1:59haven't subscribed because I see in the
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2:02"I didn't even realize I didn't
2:03subscribe." And that actually fuels the
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2:06a donation to the show. So that's why I
2:08ask all the time because it enables us
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2:13So, all I'd ask you is if you've seen
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2:22you to all of you guys that do
2:23subscribe. Means the world to me. Let's
2:25get on with the show.
2:27[Music]
2:30Dr. K, Stephen, what's up, dude?
2:32We've obviously met several times
2:33before, but for those of you that might
2:35not be familiar,
2:37who are you and what do you do? I'm a
2:39psychiatrist and what I try to do is
2:42help people understand themselves
2:45because one of the harsh lessons of the
2:47world that we live in today is there's
2:48lots of stuff happening around us that
2:51affects our lives that we have no
2:53control over. So if you look at
2:55fundamentally, you know, there's like
2:57war, there's inflation, there's like a
2:59dating and mating crisis, like whatever,
3:02there's AI, there all these like
3:03existential threats, but like you as a
3:05human can do nothing about any of that.
3:07All you can really control is like the
3:09bounds of what's in here, right? That's
3:12like literally the only thing that you
3:14have control over. And so, um, one of
3:17the lessons I learned very early on, I I
3:20spent years studying to become a monk,
3:21was that if I can learn how to master
3:24this, then the rest of the world becomes
3:28way more manageable um, at a minimum and
3:31hopefully incredibly easy.
3:33Is there a step one in understanding
3:35that this is all we can control and
3:37taking control of just this? Is there a
3:39first step that you went through?
3:40Yes, absolutely. Yeah. The first step is
3:43uh trying to control things outside of
3:45me and failing miserably time after time
3:47after time.
3:48Check
3:49because I think it's wild, right? So I I
3:51think it's like most people will try to
3:54get their boss to do something, try to
3:56get their boyfriend to do something, try
3:57to get their girlfriend, and forget
3:58about boyfriend, girlfriend, this person
4:00that I am texting, right? Try to get
4:03them to respond. And we spend so much of
4:06our energy trying to shape the world to
4:10fit us.
4:12And this has also been the direction of
4:14like technology too where we don't want
4:16to change anymore. We want the things
4:19around us to adapt to our environments
4:22like air conditioning. I don't want to
4:24change my tolerance to heat. I want to
4:27change the entire space that I live in
4:30to be more comfortable for me. And this
4:33is creating huge problems because I want
4:36to change the environment to suit my
4:37preferences. you want to change the
4:39environment to suit your preferences and
4:41then we have to be in the same room. So
4:43this is why we fight over where the
4:46climate control is.
4:47And what's the risk there then of of us
4:50having this focus on changing our
4:51external environment? Obviously we're
4:52going to fight, but is there any other
4:54risk in that? Is it just going to be
4:55that me and you our relationship's going
4:56to fray when you want a certain
4:57temperature and I want a different
4:58temperature?
4:59That's a huge problem, right? So I think
5:01if we look at like conflict in the
5:02world, it is two groups of people
5:05wanting the world to be different. So I
5:08want the boundaries of my country to be
5:10here. You want the boundaries of you
5:13want to move that line somewhere else.
5:14And this is literally why wars start.
5:16So I I think that what we spend a lot of
5:19time and energy in is trying to shape
5:22the world towards us. But that is not
5:25fundamentally possible. And so instead
5:28like we could be investing that energy
5:31into ourselves. learn how to craft
5:34myself into let's say perfection
5:38loaded word which carries a lot of stuff
5:39but then the moment that you do that
5:41things become really really easy
5:44things become really easy
5:45yeah so I think if you look at like um
5:47you know there's a ton of research that
5:49shows that you know happiness
5:51productivity success all of these three
5:54things like come together so the one of
5:57the biggest mistakes I think people make
5:58in society is like they talk about work
6:00life balance like that's wrong. Work
6:03life balance implies that you have to
6:05make a sacrifice for the other thing,
6:07right? That these two I I don't think
6:09that that's actually technically true.
6:11If you if you look at the way that
6:12society really I mean the way that a
6:14human being really works, people who are
6:17happy with their work will feel happy
6:20and they will work the best, right? The
6:22outcomes from their productivity will be
6:24higher. This is not a trade-off that we
6:26need to make. The biggest problem is
6:28that most people are forced to make
6:31trade-offs and then what they try to do
6:33is they try to find the perfect job. And
6:35this is what's so silly, right? People
6:36will say do what you love for work and
6:39you'll never work a day in your life,
6:41right? Like people will say like if your
6:44passion becomes your job, like you'll
6:45never work a day in your life. And then
6:47there are other people who also say, you
6:49know, keep your passion is your passion
6:51because the moment it becomes your job,
6:52you'll start to hate it.
6:54And that's like how can both of these
6:56things be true? It's and it kind of is
6:58like there's no way to win. So I think
7:00that's where like winning happens
7:01internally and once you start doing that
7:03and there's tons of research about flow
7:05state and things like that that once you
7:07become happy internally even in terms of
7:09relationship success you know if you
7:11carry a lot of unhappiness with you in a
7:13relationship it won't work well. So
7:16internal work like will manifest outward
7:18and I don't mean that in a spiritual
7:20sense I mean that like in a I mean that
7:22that is true but in in like a very
7:24concrete sense right if you show up at
7:26work and you feel happy like people will
7:28like you more
7:29you'll be more productive
7:30and is so is there a second step so I
7:32understand I tried to control the world
7:33I wasn't successful step two is to focus
7:37that energy inwards and take control of
7:40my internal state which is difficult
7:43because it feels to us like We're very
7:45much being dragged often by our
7:47temptations, the dopamine receptors in
7:49our brain or something.
7:50Yeah.
7:51And we have a bad night's sleep, we wake
7:52up in a bad mood, and then we have a bad
7:54day.
7:56That's how it feels.
7:57So So, and I I think if we sort of think
7:59about it, right? So, it's like uh you
8:02know, I I started my car this morning. I
8:04I looked at the gas tank. There was only
8:07a little bit of gas left and then I
8:09ended up on the highway without any gas.
8:11I ran out of gas. Right? That's one
8:13follows the other. Like that's how it
8:15feels, right? Like I just I left and I'm
8:16like, "Oh no, I'm running low on gas."
8:18And then I run out of gas. That's what
8:19happens logically, right?
8:21So how do you fix that problem?
8:23Go to the gas station.
8:24Absolutely.
8:25The whole problem is if I ask you what
8:28is go to the gas, what's the equivalent
8:30in that analogy for a human being? No
8:32one knows. You're like, right? So if I
8:35were to ask you, okay, you wake up, you
8:36slept poorly, you wake up, now you're in
8:39a bad mood, therefore you have a bad
8:41day. you're assuming that those two
8:43things are connected. Those two things,
8:46I mean, are connected, but only if you
8:49don't know how to go to the gas station.
8:51So, they're literally everything from
8:52like practices to things you can eat to
8:55all kinds of things to alter that chain
8:57of causality. So, I think the second
8:59step is first of all understanding what
9:02is going on inside you. How how do how
9:04can you move the levers? What is the
9:06internal chain of causality? And once
9:09you understand that, then you can start
9:10to implement change. And that's when it
9:12becomes easy. So if you sort of think
9:14about it like I know it sounds weird
9:15because it sounds really hard but
9:17literally the difference between
9:19something hard and something easy is
9:20whether you know how to do it.
9:23Right.
9:23Yeah.
9:24It's like oh like the Rubik's cube is
9:25hard. Like a Rubik's cube is hard but if
9:28you know how to do it it becomes easy.
9:30So it's about really understanding where
9:32do my desires come from? Where do my
9:35temptations come from? And here you are
9:36trying to control them. Forget about
9:38controlling them. Like I don't like
9:40controlling my desires. I hate it. It's
9:42hard. It requires a lot of discipline.
9:44It requires a lot of willpower. What
9:46works way better is sublimating them.
9:48What does that mean?
9:49Getting rid of them.
9:51How would how would you put it in the
9:52context of pornography in terms of
9:53controlling that desire and being
9:56productive and not letting it consume
9:58you.
9:58Let's start with PR first principle.
10:01Good diagnosis precedes good treatment.
10:04Right? So in medicine, the quality, this
10:06is what a lot of people think. Doctors
10:07are about treating people, right?
10:09Medicine is about treating things. But
10:10actually 50% or more of our training is
10:14in diagnosis. So you have to understand
10:16the problem. And this is not just true
10:18of doctors. This is like if I have a
10:20plumber who's coming to my house,
10:22whether they can fix what the problem is
10:24depends on whether they can find the
10:26problem, right? What's actually causing
10:27the leak. Then you replace that. So
10:30that's true of life in general. So if
10:31you have a problem like pornography, the
10:33first thing that you have to do is
10:35understand
10:36why you were addicted to it because
10:39that'll show you what you need to fix.
10:41And with pornography, I think there are
10:43basically like five layers to it. The
10:45first is a societal layer. There's a
10:48reason why all addictions are on the
10:50rise. There is a fundamental change in
10:54society, in the way that we connect with
10:56society that makes us more addicted to
10:58stuff. So if it was in the substance
11:00itself like in pornography itself then
11:02what we would see is there's a rise only
11:04in pornography addiction. But since
11:06there's a rise in everything that means
11:08that something is fundamental is going
11:10on. We can get to that a little bit
11:11later. Next thing that we need to do
11:13about understanding about pornography
11:14addiction is understand physiology
11:16neuroscience and psychology. So if we
11:19look at pornography addiction
11:22first thing is that it is a very
11:24powerful emo emotional coping mechanism.
11:26So the way that our brain is designed is
11:29like procreation kind of is the point,
11:31right? We can sort of say that like the
11:33reason that life exists, the purpose of
11:35life is to procreate,
11:37which means to have kids.
11:38Yeah. Right. So So this is where if you
11:40kind of look at like the way that our
11:41body and our brain are designed, it's
11:44like if the opportunity for sexual
11:46relations and procreations is there,
11:49then we're going to push everything else
11:50to the side.
11:52So anytime we watch pornography or we
11:55get sexual stimulation, our amygdala,
11:57which is our emotional circuit of the
11:59brain, experiences negative emotions
12:00like fear and anxiety. It's also our
12:02survival center of the brain. And you
12:04turn on porn. That part of your brain
12:07just gets suppressed. And this is why a
12:09lot of people don't realize what a
12:11pornography addict looks like. A lot of
12:13people think it means like I'm watching
12:15porn and masturbating a lot. But most
12:18pornography addicts will watch it and
12:20not even necessarily masturbate or
12:23they'll watch it for hours throughout
12:24the day and aren't necessarily
12:26masturbating during that time. And
12:29that's because once you have that
12:30stimulation on the side, it's kind of
12:32like aromatherapy for your brain. It's
12:34kind of suppressing your amydala. It's
12:36kind of calming you down because it has
12:38that neurologic effect. The reason that
12:40it has that neurologic effect is because
12:41sex is so important, right? So these
12:43circuits of the brain are very
12:45powerfully activated. The other thing
12:47that is really addictive about
12:50pornography is that it does cause a
12:51dopamine secretion. So orgasm feels
12:55really good. And so anytime we have an
12:58orgasm, we get a a surge of dopamine. We
13:01get a surge of pleasure. It feels really
13:03really good. And then the other problem
13:05that that creates and this is the curse
13:07of humanity is that anytime we get
13:09pleasure we also buy ourselves craving
13:12and motivation. So when we secrete
13:14dopamine in the nucleus ccumbent, it
13:17doesn't just do one thing. These three
13:19functions are fundamentally tied
13:21together in our neurosircuitry. So if I,
13:24you know, drink this and I enjoy it, I
13:26will want it tomorrow. That's like
13:28there's no way to escape that effect. So
13:31when I gain pleasure from pornography, I
13:33am buying myself craving. I am buying
13:36myself motivation towards it
13:38in the future.
13:39In the future 100%. Right? So it's it's
13:41behavioral reinforcement.
13:43And then what happens is so these are
13:45the two fundamental pieces at a
13:47neuroscience level. Then what happens is
13:50we kind of find ourselves like in a trap
13:52because since it is so good at these two
13:55things nothing else is as effective. And
13:59we as human beings if you look at like
14:01what we're designed to do on a
14:02physiologic level it is to be efficient.
14:05So why do we love unhealthy food?
14:08because we evolved in in areas where if
14:10there's one bite that has 300 calories,
14:13like that bite will save you, right?
14:15That's that's what allows you to
14:17survive. So, what we sort of got is like
14:20a a calorie dense neurological
14:23dopamine surge from pornography. And
14:26it's also like suppresses our emotions
14:29really, really, really deeply. And this
14:31is like like literally true. So, I don't
14:33know if you've ever, you know, if you've
14:35been in love or like you've known
14:37friends who who are in love, but like
14:38when you're in love and you're like
14:40horny for something, right? There's like
14:42this idea of postnut clarity and like
14:44pre-nut fog, I guess. So, literally the
14:47way that our our lust circuitry works is
14:49it suppresses all of these other parts
14:52of the brain. It suppresses the part of
14:54our brain that assesses risk.
14:56For someone that doesn't know what that
14:57means, could you be a bit bit more sort
14:59of direct?
15:00Yeah. So like when you fall in love on
15:02the less vulgar side. So when you fall
15:04in love like you start to do stupid
15:06things,
15:07right? Like you do stupid things when
15:09you're in love. And that's not a
15:11mistake. That's the way that it's wired
15:13because evolutionarily there were
15:15basically two human beings. Okay. One
15:18who would fall in love and did not do
15:20stupid things and one who did fall in
15:23love and did do stupid things. Which one
15:26of those two do you think is more likely
15:27to procreate? When you say stupid
15:29things, give me an example.
15:31Uh, I'm gonna ignore my job. I've just
15:34gotten financially stable and I've
15:37fallen in love with someone who has a
15:38pile of credit card debt. This is a
15:40terrible idea to enter a relationship
15:42with them because I've just gotten all
15:43my [ __ ] sorted out and they don't have
15:45any of their [ __ ] sorted out. So, there
15:47are all kinds of red flags that we
15:49ignore
15:50on purpose because if if we didn't
15:52ignore those red flags, then we wouldn't
15:54end up procreating.
15:55Got you. We don't want to be rational in
15:57that moment because rationality would
15:59say and and that's literally what
16:00happens. So we have circuits of the
16:02brain that will actually inhibit and
16:05shut off the rational parts of our
16:07brain. And this is where we get to
16:09postnot clarity which is this experience
16:11that many men have where after you
16:14finish the sexual act you feel like very
16:17clear-headed right and so then what
16:19happens is now what's and why is that?
16:21That's because the lustful parts of your
16:23brain, we're inhibiting, like literally
16:26inhibiting and and and shutting off the
16:28thinking parts of your brain. And once
16:30the lustful part shuts off,
16:33then we start thinking again.
16:35Probably in my early 20s was the first
16:37time I experienced postnut clarity. And
16:38it was, I think it was 2 3 a.m. in the
16:41morning. Here's me talking about my
16:43masturbation. It was like 2 3:00 a.m. in
16:46the morning. And there was this person
16:48that I was like vaguely interested in.
16:50I'm like super horny. I'm arranging to
16:52meet them at like 3:00 a.m. I think I'm
16:54like 21 years old. And I decide to
16:56masturbate instead. And immediately
16:59after I masturbated instead, it was like
17:01a completely different person inhabited
17:03my body. I was like, why? Within
17:05seconds, I was like, why the [ __ ] were
17:08you going to get out of bed at 3:00 a.m.
17:09in the morning and drive for 55 minutes
17:11to meet someone you have really no
17:13interest in? And it was like that person
17:15could not recognize the person I was 10
17:17minutes earlier. And I I I remember one
17:20day trying to explain this to um a woman
17:23and she couldn't understand it. And I
17:25actually think she was quite offended by
17:26it because it's quite an offense
17:28offensive concept I imagine to a woman
17:30to hear that men experience a a drop in
17:34interest potentially sometimes
17:37um after they masturbate.
17:39Yeah. And I I think the reason it's
17:41offensive to women is because in that
17:43moment the dude is objectifying her,
17:45right? Like it's like the the woman
17:46becomes a sexual object. It's you're not
17:48a human anymore. And like the reason
17:50they're offended is because that's
17:52exactly what happens. In that moment,
17:54there are such powerful drivers in our
17:56brain to drive us to procreate that like
17:59we don't view them as a complex human
18:02being with thoughts and feelings, right?
18:04We are just really really horny. And
18:06that's literally what happens like in
18:08our brain. We stop viewing them as
18:09complex objects. And so the reason they
18:11get offended is is sort of because
18:13they're right. and we start to view them
18:15that way and but that's also like
18:17biological there are absolutely like
18:19societal and psychological things that
18:20we can get into in a minute but like
18:22that that make things that worse but I
18:24think it's like it's understandable and
18:26it's also like how we work
18:27yeah it's which is difficult to say you
18:29just I just want to be honest about it
18:31because I think if we start from a place
18:32of like total honesty about these things
18:34we can actually reason up to some real
18:36solutions if we're trying to be
18:37politically correct or whatever we're
18:38never going to get to real answers here
18:40absolutely and all all men I I hope will
18:43experience postnut clarity and also like
18:46that doesn't make us bad men. It's a
18:49it's a physiologic thing. And I think
18:51the key thing about whether you're good
18:53or bad is the way that you manage it,
18:56right? And that's kind of what I'm
18:57talking about is like you have to
18:58understand what is happening in your
19:00brain in order to then willfully take a
19:03step back and and sort of like think
19:06about what am I feeling? And then
19:08eventually once we understand where
19:09postnut clarity comes from, we can
19:11cultivate it without
19:14having to not
19:15just just this is I know we're on a
19:16little bit of a tangent here, but do
19:18women experience the inverse of postnut
19:20clarity because there's a lot of
19:21oxytocin released when we have sex. So I
19:25was just just reading a study from 2021
19:27in the journal of sex research and it
19:29found that women were more likely to
19:30feel emotionally connected, vulnerable
19:31and have a desire for postcoidal
19:34closeness like cuddling or talking.
19:36However, men who are in long-term
19:38relationships reported feeling similarly
19:40bonded to women, which is probably
19:42explains actually why I'm also down to
19:44cuddle after because she's been my
19:45partner for seven years.
19:46Yeah. So, there is so much there. So,
19:49the now we're getting I mean, if you
19:50want to go into that, that's the
19:52societal element, right? So there is the
19:55neuroscience of
19:58pornography addiction, what it does to
19:59your brain, but there is a fundamental
20:02societal issue which is driving men
20:05towards pornography and also addresses
20:08this kind of thing where relationships
20:10between men and women are getting
20:12harder. And as relationships between men
20:15and women are getting harder, there's a
20:17part of the the the brain more often the
20:20male brain that is getting starved for
20:23something because we no longer have
20:25sexual connections, emotional
20:27connections with women. And so when we
20:29get hungry for something, then the brain
20:31will try to find what it can to satisfy
20:34it.
20:35Right? Right. So there there's a part of
20:37our brain that you know that drives us
20:39towards procreation but often times in a
20:42real relationship it comes with a lot of
20:44other things.
20:45Yeah.
20:45Right.
20:46The problem is that when we're and this
20:49gets a bit technical but when our brain
20:50wants something it usually wants a whole
20:53package. So for example like if you feel
20:56hungry you don't want calories. I want
20:58to eat this and I want to eat this and I
21:00want to drink this and I want to have
21:02some of this. Right? So there are lots
21:03of different things that my brain wants
21:05or my body wants and they're usually all
21:07they all come together in in a real
21:09healthy way in in a sorry in a natural
21:11way which is why it's healthy. Not that
21:13natural is healthy but that's what we've
21:14adapted to. The problem with pornography
21:17is that it gives us a slice of what our
21:20brain craves. And the problem is once it
21:23gives you a slice once you get that
21:24sexual gratification your emotion your
21:27emotional connection is not met. You
21:29have no bond. You have no feeling of
21:31safety nothing like that. that often
21:32times you're filled with like regret and
21:34all kinds of guilt and things like that.
21:36And so even though you're satisfying
21:38that sort of procreative drive, all of
21:40the stuff that comes with it stays
21:42unsatisfied.
21:43And then the real problem is once we
21:45satisfy the procreative drive, the
21:48motivation to go and get all of those
21:51other things disappears,
21:55right? So once I nut postnut clarity, I
21:58don't need a relationship with anyone
21:59else.
22:01Right? I'm not willing to sacrifice to
22:03deal with this person. So, so it's it's
22:06kind of like it's sort of like if I if I
22:08fill up your stomach with just unhealthy
22:11food, like let's say I just give you
22:13straight calories like some highly
22:15processed like hamburger
22:17wrapped in donuts or whatever and
22:19drizzled with take your pick of artery
22:22clogging stuff. After you eat that, you
22:25don't have any fiber, you don't have any
22:27micronutrients, but you're not going to
22:28crave broccoli.
22:29Yeah.
22:30Right. So that's what's happening in our
22:31society is we're using porn as a
22:33substitute for relationships and that's
22:36creating these really strong societal
22:38pressures and being driven by. So what
22:42have you seen happening between men and
22:44women right now? H um women I think
22:49don't need men as much as they used to
22:51and I think this is in part because of
22:53this whole sexual revolution and the
22:55pill and the feminism and all these
22:57things which is has you know tremendous
22:59upsides. I think that women and men are
23:03having less sex, they're getting married
23:05less. Men's attitude towards women has
23:08become
23:10a little bit more resentful in certain
23:12pockets of the internet.
23:15They perceive relationships with the
23:17other sex to be
23:20disposable more than ever before.
23:22Men's spe view women
23:24I would say both. And I think in part
23:26that's because of dating apps. Just the
23:27perception of choice. The feeling that
23:29if you don't work out there's another
23:30thousand people on my phone that I could
23:32give a shot to. I think the equation of
23:35a relationship when we think about the
23:39investment it takes for it to work and
23:41what you get from it, people now
23:42perceive the equation not to be worth
23:44it.
23:45Okay. I think there's a lot of great
23:47stuff there. So, so you're like a fully
23:49formed adult man, right?
23:51I think so. I hope so.
23:52Yeah. Like you're you're like you're
23:53like a man.
23:54You're not like a kid. You're not like a
23:56like a dude in early stages of
23:58development. You've like you've got a
23:59career. You've got a relationship.
24:01You're buying a house. Like you were an
24:03adult.
24:04Yeah.
24:04So if I was an 18year-old.
24:06Yeah.
24:07And I came to you and let's say I'm your
24:08nephew or something like that and I'm
24:10like Stephen, fully formed adult,
24:13handsome man in relationship. I'm
24:15struggling to date.
24:17Yeah.
24:18What should I do?
24:19You want me to give you advice? [ __ ]
24:22Um I think you should work on yourself.
24:24Okay.
24:25Especially as an 18-year-old man because
24:26I think you need to, especially at that
24:28age, create some advantages. is. And so
24:30working on yourself could be learning,
24:32reading, going to the gym, building up
24:34the ability to provide for someone else
24:36and to protect somebody else. That's
24:38kind of really where I'd start. And
24:39again, that's biased because that's what
24:40I did at 18 years old. I actually didn't
24:42date. I think I've been on five dates my
24:43entire life.
24:44Okay. So, let's say I do that.
24:46Yeah.
24:47And it doesn't work.
24:49Yeah.
24:49Okay. So, I'm like, "Hey, I'm on this
24:51growth journey." And I'm sure you've
24:53encountered this and there are going to
24:54be people in the audience who are like,
24:56"The reason they're watching this
24:57podcast is because they're trying to do
24:58that. They're still not getting dates,
25:00right? It's still hard to find a
25:01girlfriend.
25:02Then what do you have to say to them?
25:04I would assume that the reason it's not
25:08working is because they're not in this
25:10frame of mind to find love.
25:13And when someone says when a dude says,
25:17I I'm trying to do everything right,
25:19what is the most common response that
25:21they get? Right. So like
25:22try harder or like
25:24Yeah. Right. If you kind of like look at
25:26Twitter, what you'll find is people will
25:28be like, "It's impossible to find a good
25:30woman." And then like men will be and
25:32let's say a dude says that or a woman
25:34says that doesn't. It's on both sides.
25:36It's impossible to find a good man. And
25:38then people won't be like, "Yeah, it's
25:40impossible to find a good man." Maybe
25:41some people will be supportive. So
25:42you'll have a woman who says it's
25:44impossible to find a good man. You know,
25:45they'll there are a lot of people who
25:47are like, "Yeah, like like men are
25:48trash." Fine. And then a lot of people
25:50will be like, "You're not trying hard
25:51enough. You're not going to the right
25:53places." is that's that gets we as men
25:55get that a lot more because there's a
25:56societal bias that men don't need help.
25:58Right? So if if if you look at like the
26:01the comparison of scholarships, male
26:03only scholarships versus female only
26:05scholarships, there's about $4.9 billion
26:08worth of scholarships given out in the
26:09United States from private sources. Uh
26:12female scholarships outside of athletics
26:14are way higher than ma male
26:15scholarships. So if you look at
26:16athletics, the number is way higher for
26:18men. But the really weird thing is that
26:20like 60% of people who graduate from
26:22college or in college somewhere in there
26:24are women. So the the people who need
26:26more gender-based support are men, but
26:28we don't really do that. We're usually
26:30like if a man has a problem, this is a
26:33man's problem to solve. And when a man
26:36goes out and says, "I'm having trouble
26:37dating." But what people will say is men
26:40will say, "Work harder, try harder." You
26:43know, people will like like and people
26:45will really be nasty about it. They're
26:46like, "Do you not know how to talk to
26:47women? stop being a creep, things like
26:49that. And then the other thing that
26:51we're sort sort of starting to not
26:52starting, we're really seeing is that
26:54there is like this very very like deep
26:56anger, entitlement. There's like this
26:58incel movement. Um, you know, there's
27:00this like alpha male, beta male kind of
27:02thing. And I don't know if you kind of
27:03get this, but there's like a deep sense
27:05of like anger, right? There's like a in
27:07men, and I think women feel it too. This
27:09is why women are so terrified. This
27:11whole thing about would you rather be in
27:13a forest with a bear or a man? You did
27:16you hear about this? So like people
27:18would ask this question on Twitter to
27:19women. It's like would you be rather be
27:20in a forest with like a bear or a man?
27:22And like women feel safer with a wild
27:24bear than they do with a man. So I think
27:27people are picking up on this like
27:29existential and I don't know if that
27:31makes sense to you, but there's like an
27:33existential like cry coming from men
27:36which can manifest as anger. I think
27:38we're also seeing reflections of this
27:40like in South Korea with like dropping
27:42birth rates, right? Where like men are
27:44getting really really angry. They feel
27:45really entitled. And I think this is
27:47where it's important to understand a
27:48biological difference. And we'll get to
27:50what I think is going on.
27:52So a woman does not need a man in order
27:55to pass her genes along, right? So I
27:57mean like literally, I know it sounds
27:58weird, but like if you're a woman, you
28:00can just go to a sperm bank and you can
28:01get pregnant.
28:02Yeah.
28:02You can just have a child without you
28:05can also argue that it's easier for
28:06women to find a man who is willing to
28:08impregnate them than it is for a man to
28:11find a woman willing to carry their
28:12child. But I mean literally we live in a
28:14society where women can just procreate
28:16if they feel like it and men cannot. So
28:20there's a fundamental power balance
28:21there. I'm not saying it's right or
28:22wrong. I'm just saying it is what it is.
28:24So I think what we're starting to see is
28:27actually like a mass extinction event.
28:29We are seeing natural selection for a
28:32group of men who have no options. Many
28:36years ago, I was a loser. And the the
28:39world that we lived in
28:42necessitated my entry into third spaces.
28:46I had trouble talking to girls, but I
28:48was forced into college. When I got my
28:50first job, it was serving ice cream. I
28:52was forced to interact with girls. I was
28:54active in a s summer camp where I met
28:56girls, was forced to talk to girls. So,
28:58I sucked at talking to girls, but the
29:01world that I lived in was structured so
29:04that I still had to talk to girls. I had
29:06no option to retreat from interaction
29:09and painful interaction with the
29:11opposite sex. I think literally what
29:13we're seeing because all this stuff
29:14started to get really bad during CO. So,
29:17what happened in CO was actually like a
29:19natural selection event, but it wasn't a
29:22natural selection event about life and
29:25death. That's what people think natural
29:27selection is. What happened during CO?
29:28Sure, a lot of people died and that's
29:30bad. But the postcoid world, some people
29:33were able to adapt to it and some people
29:36are not. We're seeing a spike in social
29:38anxiety. Now I can work from home. Now I
29:41have pornography. Now I have all this
29:43stuff going on to where I'm not forced
29:46to learn how to interact with women.
29:48Does that kind of make sense?
29:49Yeah.
29:50So now you can live your whole life at
29:52home. And I think what's starting to
29:53happen is literally natural selection.
29:55And the way that natural selection works
29:57is people think it's like, oh, if I'm
29:59natural, natural selection means I'm
30:01weak and someone is strong. That's not
30:02technically correct. Natural selection
30:04is you were made a certain way, someone
30:08else is made a different way and then
30:10the environment changes.
30:12Which one of these two is suited to?
30:15It's not even adaptation because all the
30:17adaptations have been made. And I think
30:19the best example of this is like
30:20literally Darwin's finches. So, you've
30:22got like, you know, one finch that has
30:24like a hard beak that can crack a nut.
30:26You've got another finch that has a very
30:27sharp beak that can get like a a a bug
30:31out of like a cactus like that has these
30:33very like tight tight flowers. And so,
30:35if something happens and all the cacti
30:37die out, the birds that rely on the
30:39cacti bugs will start to die out too.
30:41They don't know how to procreate in this
30:43world anymore. And I think what we're
30:45seeing with like all these alphas,
30:46betas, incelss, what we're seeing in
30:48South Korea is there is a whole
30:50generation of men that is like we are
30:53literally watching them die out in real
30:57time because we've got 32 year olds,
30:5935year-olds who do not have children, do
31:01not know how they're going to ever have
31:03children. And this is where like I know
31:05this sounds bizarre, but so that's
31:06actually happening. That's not bizarre.
31:08That's birth rate in South Korea is like
31:097. So there's a bunch of men who will
31:12never pass on their genes in the alpha
31:15male, beta male, whatever. Like, you
31:17know, in that kind of language, they
31:19talk a lot about like procreation and
31:21legacy and stuff like that. But I I
31:24almost wonder is there a mechanism in a
31:28human being that if your genes know
31:31they're dying out, what would they
31:34trigger in your mind?
31:36Right? And I think what they would
31:37trigger is exactly what we're seeing.
31:39This like existential panic, angst, even
31:43aggression, entitlement, because if
31:46these men do not behave in this way,
31:48they are literally going to die out. So
31:50what we see in this postcoid world is
31:52that people like maybe you or me who
31:55were like losers and didn't know how to
31:56talk to chicks in high school, we were
31:58forced into social interaction where we
32:00basically like that's where we developed
32:03uh in in order so that we could talk to
32:05girls. But in this postcoid world, all
32:07those spaces are gone. There's no
32:10forcable interaction. So then there are
32:12some people for whom it's natural to
32:14talk to girls. And that's why like we
32:16see this dichotomy where it's almost
32:19like you know some people like just put
32:20yourself out there, just work out, work
32:22on yourself and things will work out.
32:24And then there are a lot of other people
32:25who are like that's not working. And I
32:28imagine if you went back like 200 years,
32:31went back to the Gapagos Islands and you
32:33took Darwin's finches and you put them
32:35on Twitter, you would see that what
32:38exactly what we're seeing. Some people
32:40are like, "Oh, like you have trouble
32:41getting bugs, just crack a nut. Like
32:44just get better at cracking nuts." But
32:47they have something in their makeup,
32:49something in their attachment style,
32:51something in in their their tendency for
32:53social anxiety, something in their
32:55neuroticism, something in their
32:57circumstances, something in their
32:59support structure that allows them to
33:01put forth effort and succeed. And then
33:05there are these other people over here
33:07who will go to therapy, who will work on
33:10themselves professionally,
33:12who will show up on dating apps and
33:15because of the shape of their face which
33:18cannot be fundamentally altered or some
33:21other thing which they're not even aware
33:22of, they grew up with a certain
33:24attachment style that they're not aware
33:26of. they grew up with on the spectrum
33:30and their capacity to make eye contact
33:32and emotional connections is very
33:34difficult. So there's this whole crop of
33:37people who I think are trying really
33:39hard. I don't think they're losers. I
33:41don't think they're like pathetic or
33:42anything like that. I think there's
33:44something about the architecture of how
33:46these people are built so that standard
33:49advice does not apply to them. And what
33:52I feel when I sit with these people is
33:54like someone who is dying out. Like
33:56that's what it feels like to sit with
33:58this this person's life. They're not
34:00living a life. They're in a slow
34:03protracted process of dying. And when
34:06you are in a slow protracted process of
34:08dying, pornography shows up. And then
34:11you've got this weird thing that goes on
34:13where you get this spurt of dopamine,
34:15this existential dread of like I am not
34:19getting to participate in life. There
34:21are all these people out there that are
34:22participating. They tell me, "Oh, you
34:24should do this, but it doesn't work."
34:26And it's just imagine how terrifying it
34:28is if someone gives you advice
34:32that's supposed to work and it doesn't
34:33work for you. How [ __ ] are you? Right?
34:36Because that's the answer. It's like
34:38some people have cancer, we give them
34:40cancer treatment, they get better. But
34:43if some people have cancer and
34:44everyone's like, "Hey, do this
34:45chemotherapy." And it doesn't work, then
34:48how screwed are you? You're very
34:50screwed. So this is, I think, what we're
34:52seeing. This deep existential loss, this
34:56desire for connection is somehow like
34:59intersecting with pornography. Because I
35:02think pornography addiction has a
35:03spiritual component, too. And if you
35:05talk to people who are addicted to
35:07pornography, they can feel it. They feel
35:10like spiritually like empty. They're
35:12like, I'm not doing anything in with my
35:14life. So, one of the two variables that
35:17correlates with pornography addiction,
35:19the two strongest variables that
35:20correlate with pornography addiction,
35:22one of them is a sense of
35:23meaninglessness in life. And there's a
35:26weird spiritual angle that I talked
35:28about, but the other really simple thing
35:30is, you know, if you want to stop
35:31watching porn, you need to have a reason
35:33to stop watching porn. And the problem
35:35with porn is that you can be kind of
35:36like living your life and then in the in
35:39between hours when you're like back from
35:41work and before you go on a date or
35:43maybe you're swiping on Tinder and no
35:45one's really answering or whatever, like
35:47you just have these hours in the day
35:48where there's nothing going on. You're
35:49not living for anything. So, you might
35:51as well jerk off.
35:52I mean, there's there's a lot that I'm
35:53thinking about. The first is if we go
35:55back up to your point about this being a
35:57bit bit of an extinction event, it poses
36:00a question about like what do you do
36:02about that? M
36:03um you said also people are trying to
36:06implement the advice but it's not
36:08working.
36:08Now does that mean that that's a
36:10question of like motivation, discipline?
36:13Is it um is it bad advice? What do we do
36:17there? And um the third I guess question
36:20that comes to mind is does society have
36:23a responsibility to intervene in some
36:25way to correct this?
36:28So I I think does society have a
36:30responsibility? I don't think that is a
36:33real thing. So I have never seen society
36:37take a responsibility. I don't think
36:39society can take a responsibility.
36:41Right? So if like like how do I get
36:43society like who do I talk to?
36:46But but if you think about other people
36:48that are in marginalized groups, society
36:51intervenes to make the world
36:53the governments and the way that we make
36:55our laws and the way that we give out
36:56money and grants and the way that we
36:58shape our communities.
36:59Yeah. So I I understand the question but
37:01I I think like this and this is just the
37:03way that I think. So if I ask you what
37:05is society you say the government and
37:07then who is the government? What is the
37:09government? It's people.
37:10Yeah.
37:10So I think this comes down to forget
37:12about societal responsibility and I
37:14think this is one of the problems. Not
37:16to say that it is the problem but this
37:18is just the way that I think. There was
37:20a case, I don't remember her name, of a
37:21woman who was being sexually assaulted
37:23in public like on a street at nighttime
37:26and there were a bunch of neighbors who
37:29were like aware that the sexual assault
37:31was happening and no one called for
37:33help.
37:34And the reason no one called for help is
37:35because everyone assumed that somebody
37:37else would call for help. You know whose
37:40problem is it? Oh, society should fix
37:42this. And the moment that we say society
37:45should fix this, we stop taking
37:47individual responsibility. And the
37:49moment that we stop taking individual
37:51responsibility, like unless someone
37:53shows up and runs for office and says,
37:56"My goal is to do this," which by the
37:58way is happening in like South Korea. So
38:00like conservatives that are very like
38:02there's this huge tension in South Korea
38:04right now between men and women and this
38:064B movement where women are like we're
38:07not going to have kids anymore. And then
38:09there's like this conservative kind of
38:11like pro-masculine kind of movement that
38:13is moving into government and says like
38:15this needs to change. we see governments
38:17responding to this mating crisis. Um,
38:20right. So, I think like China is now
38:21paying people to have children. So,
38:23there's all kinds of like moves that are
38:25happening. So, is it society's
38:27responsibility? Like, I don't know. So,
38:30I think if society doesn't do anything,
38:32what's going to happen will be really
38:33simple. And that's what I mean by we're
38:34we're witnessing a mass extinction
38:36event. We have a group of young men who
38:38are somewhere between 15 to 50 who will
38:42just never procreate and then they will
38:44literally die out, right? their genes
38:46will not be passed on and for the people
38:48who do procreate they will have been
38:51adapted to the postcoid world.
38:54Yeah.
38:54Right. So they know how to form they
38:56they succeed on Tinder. Whereas like if
38:58you go and you look at like if you go to
39:00like um some kind of senior event and
39:04you look at all the people who have
39:06grandkids, half the men there would not
39:08have succeeded on Tinder.
39:10Yeah.
39:10Right. And this is something that really
39:12like shocks people when I kind of tell
39:13them this, but if you want to see like
39:15who's succeeding, it's not the the dudes
39:17on Tinder who are getting laid 15 times.
39:19Like go to like a I mean, this is
39:21sometimes a little creepy, but like if
39:22you go to a playground, you're going to
39:24see like a lot of like averagel looking
39:26men with like average looking dad bods,
39:28which with average median incomes who
39:31are like having kids, and that's what's
39:33really happening. But even those men are
39:37adapted in some way, right? because
39:39they're not exceptionally attractive.
39:40They're not exceptionally rich, but they
39:42have something going on in their
39:44psychological makeup which allows them
39:46to form bonds and procreate.
39:49You just said that a huge amount of men
39:51between the age of 15 and 50 will not
39:53pass on their genes. They will
39:54effectively die out of the gene mating
39:57pool. So, people will hear that and many
40:00people will go, "Well, that's
40:01evolution."
40:02Yeah.
40:03And but I want to understand if there's
40:05a counterpoint to that. it should should
40:07society intervene should why is you know
40:10in the short term we're going to have a
40:11lot of men who are disillusioned that
40:13become incel find themselves in pockets
40:15of the internet are resentful all those
40:17kinds of things but should society
40:19intervene to course correct that should
40:21we put systems in place to make sure
40:23that those men meet partners I
40:24I'm going to I'm going to answer that
40:26question with a question
40:27okay
40:28if let's say a huge swath of people are
40:31dying out from cancer yeah
40:33should we intervene with that
40:34yes
40:35if a huge swath of people are dying out
40:37from like a virus should we intervene
40:39100% yes
40:40if a huge swath of people are dying out
40:42from genocide should we inter intervene
40:44with that
40:45yes
40:46so I think there are two important
40:47things one
40:48it's slightly different though isn't it
40:49because it's just it's whether you
40:50so one is about death
40:53right so one is like if if a human being
40:55is dying
40:56we should step in but natural selection
40:59isn't necessarily about death this is
41:01what's really tricky about it this is
41:02why I think it gets hard natural
41:04selection is about passing on your genes
41:06Yeah,
41:06right. It's about creating viable
41:08offspring. And this is where if someone,
41:11you know, and I think we also say yes,
41:13like if there's, you know, a couple that
41:15wants to have a child and that child has
41:17cystic fibrosis, should we help that
41:19couple? Should we help a couple
41:20procreate? We also say yes.
41:22Yeah.
41:23So that's why we have IVF and things
41:24like that. So I think the the tricky
41:26thing about the reason that this is
41:27different is because that's a couple. If
41:29if a woman is unable to have kids, even
41:31if we say if a man is unable to have
41:33kids, should we medically intervene so
41:35that it they're capable of having kids?
41:38Yes. Right. So, if we're talking about a
41:40couple, if we're talking about a human
41:42being and there's a medical problem or
41:44if we're talking about protecting people
41:45from death, the answer is yes. This is a
41:48new question
41:50which is do people have the right and I
41:53don't know if right is and maybe that's
41:55the right word to reproduce and this is
41:58what's so challenging about it is like
42:00the answer is basically no because for
42:02men that requires the consent of someone
42:05else and my right to reproduce never
42:08trumps someone's right to not want to
42:11reproduce with me. I think we sort of
42:13accept that right that that's correct.
42:16Now, this is where the fundamental
42:17biological difference comes in because a
42:20woman doesn't need a man to reproduce. I
42:22can go to a sperm bank.
42:24And once again, you can argue that you
42:26can get laid if you want to, but I that
42:27hasn't been my experience. I think women
42:29struggle with loneliness and finding
42:30sexual partners and stuff quite a bit as
42:32well. There's some really bad
42:33perceptions on the internet. So, I think
42:35this is like a new problem for society,
42:37which is why it hasn't been solved.
42:40Now, that's why the the the track that I
42:42take, I don't know what the societal
42:43answer is. I'm not a sociologist. So
42:46what I have found thankfully we don't
42:48need to sol I don't think we need to
42:50solve that problem. Does it need to be
42:51solved? Sure. Should someone solve it? I
42:53think so. But I think what what what I
42:55found works really well is that usually
42:58the problem that these men are failing
43:00to adapt to I is can be fixed. But the
43:05problem is that the solutions that work
43:07for the people who are successful
43:10will not work for the people who are
43:12unsuccessful. These are apples and
43:13oranges right? So like and this is the
43:16big mistake is that when when I say okay
43:18I am happily married with two kids but
43:22the thing that I did won't work for
43:24these people that's been my clinical
43:26experience my advice does not work for
43:29them your advice won't work for them
43:32what we need is a different system that
43:35addresses their fundamental problems
43:39right cuz I had what it takes internally
43:41I was loved as a child like f like this
43:44is how deep it runs. So, I knew how to
43:48give love and receive love. A third of
43:51the men that I meet do not know how to
43:53give love and do not know how to receive
43:55love. Has nothing to do with their
43:56Tinder profiles, that's why they're
43:57[ __ ] And when people can say, "Go to
44:00the gym, make more money." But if you do
44:02not know how to fundamentally give or
44:03receive love, then like that's a huge
44:05problem.
44:06Is that where you start when you're
44:08trying to solve this on an individual
44:09basis?
44:10Uh, yeah. So I mean I start giving and
44:12receiving love is not where I start
44:14because that's like so foreign to them
44:15that they don't know how to do that.
44:17Okay?
44:17Right? So I think there are a couple of
44:19things. Uh the first place that I start
44:21with most men is in understanding their
44:24emotions.
44:25So we have all kinds of patterns that we
44:28engage in that are driven by different
44:31parts of us that we have no insight
44:32into. And usually this is like where the
44:35money is. So I I was I had had a great
44:37conversation yesterday with a buddy of
44:38mine and you know he he gave me this
44:40fantastic example which I've seen so
44:42many times. So you know there's a a lot
44:44of women will talk about men who are
44:46afraid of commitment.
44:47Yeah.
44:47You know so it's like oh like I'm dating
44:50this person he's great but he's afraid
44:51of commitment. He's afraid of
44:52commitment. And then and then then it
44:54kind of becomes like oh like the dude is
44:55like he like needs to step up and he
44:57needs to like be a man and needs to like
44:58learn how to commit. So we sort of put
45:00put the onus on the man. You're afraid
45:02of commitment. You need to fix that.
45:04It's a really funny thing is if you look
45:06at like women that I've worked with,
45:08they sort of fall into this pattern
45:10where they date men who are afraid of
45:11commitment and that's why they're
45:13looking for commitment because they
45:14haven't found it yet, right? And so the
45:15really funny thing is sometimes women
45:18will select for a man who is afraid of
45:21commitment because deep down they are
45:23afraid of commitment.
45:25So true. So I I'm going to find someone
45:28who I know is afraid of commitment and
45:30therefore I can blame them for never
45:33committing. And this is how I know this
45:35because sometimes the dude will come
45:37into my office and he will work on his
45:39fear of commitment and he will conquer
45:41it. And the moment that he conquers his
45:43fear on commitment, the woman will
45:44retreat. They'll get terrified. They'll
45:47start to find all kinds of problems. And
45:49it's not just like men and it's not just
45:50women are guilty of this. So there are
45:52all kinds of patterns that people will
45:55engage in that they have no insight
45:57into. First of all, understand your
45:58emotions. Then you will understand your
46:00behaviors. Oh, like why do I keep on pe
46:03selecting people who are afraid of
46:04commitment? Because I'm afraid of
46:06commitment. And if I can find somebody
46:08else who's afraid of commitment, I can
46:10blame them from it. And I never have to
46:12deal with my lattering up my fear of
46:14commitment. So there's a lot of stuff
46:15that comes with emotions. So awareness
46:17of emotions, awareness of your your
46:18patterns, the ability to regulate them,
46:21and I'd say that kind of ties it up.
46:23So step one is understanding one's
46:25emotions, and then step two is sort of
46:27giving them a way to deal with those
46:28emotions that isn't the pornography or
46:30the addictive behavior or the short-term
46:31desire that might be destructive for
46:33their long-term their long-term goals.
46:35I think so.
46:36And and what is that? How do I deal with
46:38the emotions? So if I'm if I'm if I have
46:40a craving to to engage in some kind of
46:43addictive behavior like pornography,
46:46what should I do instead?
46:47So, so if we're getting super practical,
46:49I can give you kind of like my paradigm
46:51for treating pornography addiction.
46:53So, the first thing is that I know this
46:54sounds kind of weird, but the first
46:56thing that I recommend people do is
46:58schedule their pornography usage. So,
47:00pick one hour of the day where they
47:02watch pornography. So, if we look at
47:04like one of the problems with
47:06pornography, it's that it invades all
47:08the cracks in your life. And then over
47:10time, what it does is it widens those
47:12cracks. So, the first thing that you've
47:14got to do is like move it to like one
47:16part of the day. I know a lot of people
47:18are fans of like cold turkey and like
47:20like you know sobriety and things like
47:23that. I think for the digital addictions
47:24that's harder. So, log out of all of
47:26your devices. Restrict it to one hour of
47:29the day. Next thing that you need to do
47:31is anticipate what are going to be the
47:33hard parts of your day. So, what are the
47:36parts where you're going to feel really
47:38bad about something and what's your
47:40plan? What's your alternative in those
47:43moments? So the other really tricky
47:45thing about the brain is that when we
47:48are suffering, we cannot create new
47:50solutions.
47:52So usually when we get attacked by
47:54something, our survival instincts kick
47:56in. Our reflexes kick in. Reflexes and
47:59innovation are at two opposite ends of
48:01the spectrum.
48:02So you have to innovate before you need
48:04to use it. Right? We need to have a fire
48:06hydrant in our house before the fire
48:09starts. You can't go finding a fire
48:11hydrant. That's a big mistake that a lot
48:12of people make. So, your emotional
48:14regulation techniques, you need to be
48:16practiced, whether that's meditation.
48:18Um, I really like something called urge
48:20surfing. So, urge surfing is something
48:22that's confuses a lot of people. So, if
48:25you have a desire, Stephen, like, do you
48:27want anything right now?
48:28That house I've put an offer in.
48:30Okay, great.
48:30Or I'm I'm getting a little bit hungry.
48:32So, maybe some
48:33In either case, if you don't get those
48:35things, the desire will disappear over
48:37time, right? So if you don't get the
48:40house 40 years from now, there may be a
48:42seed of desire left, but you're not
48:45going to like want that house 40 like
48:47you know that's what's really confusing
48:49for people is people don't realize that
48:51if you do not give into your desire
48:52it'll disappear on its own and people
48:55sort of know this if you've been hungry
48:56and you'll notice that you feel hungry
48:58but if you don't feed yourself the
49:00hunger goes away. It'll come back
49:02because your s it'll be get recreated
49:04stronger by certain signals in your
49:06body. But the desire disappears if you
49:09don't give into it. So urge surfing is
49:11recognizing that you don't need to
49:14conquer your addiction. You need to wait
49:16it out.
49:18So if you have a desire for pornography,
49:22the desire will start, it'll increase,
49:24it'll peak, and then it'll disappear on
49:27its own. any addictive substance, you
49:30just need to play the waiting game. So,
49:32it can help to have an emotional
49:33regulation technique. So, the the
49:35technique that I recommend for most of
49:36my patients is alternate nostril
49:38breathing. So, there's something about
49:40our nose that when we change the way
49:43that we breathe, it alters our
49:45sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous
49:47system and causes us to calm down.
49:49Anytime we have an urge for something,
49:52we feel unsatisfied. When we feel
49:54unsatisfied, it creates stress. Stress
49:57causes a spike in cortisol. Cortisol
50:00will then activate our nervous system.
50:02So when you want something, it's like I
50:04I want it. So you need to just calm
50:06yourself down. So alternate nostril
50:08breathing is a great way to do that. We
50:10start that by taking your hand, do this.
50:12Okay?
50:13And then thumb is out. Great. Then what
50:16we're going to do is take your thumb,
50:18block the right nostril, breathe in.
50:22Now with a full breath of air, switch.
50:25There you go. Breathe out.
50:29Breathe in through the same nostril.
50:34Switch. Breathe out.
50:41In.
50:44Switch. Out.
50:51In.
50:54Switch.
50:56out.
50:59We'll do one more. So, breathe in
51:00through the same nostril.
51:04Switch and out.
51:10So, if you do that practice,
51:12you'll notice a couple things. One is
51:14that one of your nostrils is more closed
51:15than the other. That's completely
51:17normal. It'll alternate about every 90
51:19minutes if you're healthy. Okay?
51:22So this practice if we sort of think
51:24about it, what were we talking about
51:25again?
51:28Can't remember.
51:29Exactly.
51:32Right. So this practice is interesting
51:34because it forces our attention. If I
51:36just tell you to take deep breaths, that
51:37doesn't work well because the mind can
51:39continue to be engaged. Right? The mind
51:42can think about whatever it wants to. We
51:44can talk about marriage. We can talk
51:45about your house. We can talk about what
51:47you want to eat. And if I'm just sitting
51:48there meditating, observing my breath,
51:50it doesn't anchor the mind. So alternate
51:53nostril breathing is really good for a
51:54couple of reasons. The first is that it
51:56requires you to pay attention. And if
51:58you're concentrating, because we're
51:59doing all this weird stuff, right?
52:00You're kind of screwing up. That's the
52:02point
52:03because then you're not thinking about
52:04something else. So then something really
52:07cool happens. I feel like watching
52:08pornography. I do this for a while.
52:10Which which bre which one? Which one
52:12again? And then you do it for a little
52:14while. Calms down the physiology. You'll
52:15feel a little bit calmer. And now the
52:17urge has disappeared. It'll come back.
52:20It'll come back stronger. But your brain
52:23has learned an alternative. The whole
52:25reason we get trapped in a cycle of
52:27addiction is because we have one
52:29solution to one problem. The moment that
52:32we create a second solution, a lot of
52:34things change. Now, we have to train
52:36that a little bit ahead of time. It's
52:38hard to do that for the first time when
52:40you have a craving. So, you need to
52:41practice it for like maybe 5 to 15
52:43minutes every single day. as you get
52:45good at it. If you have a craving pornog
52:47for pornography, you can use that
52:49practice.
52:49And can you use that practice for other
52:51types of cravings?
52:52100%. You can use it for anything.
52:54Is there a longer term piece of work I
52:56would need to do to get over that
52:57craving though? Because, you know,
52:58yes and no. So, so start by logging out
53:01of all your devices that you watch
53:03pornography on. Use only one device and
53:06schedule one amount of time for the day.
53:10Practice urge surfing. Urge surfing is
53:12just the awareness that urges will
53:14disappear. I would encourage you to like
53:16pay attention to other things. So, if
53:17you sit down to eat a meal and you want
53:19a soda, you've got your food in front of
53:21you. It's really weird. Just don't eat
53:23and don't do anything for a little bit
53:24and just watch the desire for the soda.
53:26You'll see it peak and then as you
53:28observe it, you will see it disappear.
53:31So, this is what's really weird. Okay,
53:34I'm going to say this. I don't know if
53:35this is going to make sense.
53:37When you relapse,
53:40you know you're going to relapse and
53:41then you stop thinking about it. Like
53:44you have this internal struggle like
53:46should I do it? Should I not do it?
53:47Should I do it? Should I not do it? And
53:49then something happens and you're like,
53:50oh, like I'm going to do it. And then
53:53you like let the fight happen for a
53:55little while and then it kind of
53:56disappears from your mind. You know what
53:57I mean?
53:58So what a lot of people don't realize is
54:00that internal conflict is willpower.
54:04They think willpower means winning the
54:06internal conflict. That's technically
54:08not the case. If we look at the part of
54:10our brain that exerts willpower, it is
54:13the same part of our brain that monitors
54:15internal conflict. If you are internally
54:19conflicted, that is your willpower
54:21acting. That's you fighting. That's the
54:23willpower itself. So, as long as you are
54:26monitoring your internal conflict, the
54:28only way an addiction can win is when
54:30you leave the ring. Literally. Are you
54:33saying keep the conflict going?
54:35Keep the conflict going and you will win
54:38100% of the time. And if people have
54:40struggled with addiction, they're going
54:41to know. In the back of your mind, you
54:43make a decision and then you pretend to
54:45fight for a little while. You've already
54:47decided and then you feel really good.
54:49You're like, "Oh yeah, we're going to
54:50just do it." Some justification happens.
54:52And then you stop the fight. And then
54:54you don't even do it right away. You
54:56don't do it like right away. You're
54:57like, "Wait." And then it just happens
54:58on its own. But if you really pay
55:00attention to your internal process,
55:01you'll see that going on. Okay. So, urge
55:04surfing, alternate nostril breathing
55:06practiced ideally ahead of time so that
55:09when you are doing it, you know, it's
55:11like
55:12if I want to learn, if I want to defend
55:14myself with a sword, I don't want to
55:16pick it up for the first time when
55:18barbarians are attacking me, right? I
55:19need to practice. Same is true of
55:21cognitive skills. So, we want to do
55:23those cognitive skills and then when we
55:25have those urges, we want to deal with
55:27them. The other thing that we need to do
55:29is anticipate the hard emotional parts
55:31of our day. So, am I going to have this
55:34conversation? Is this going to be hard?
55:36And then prepare yourself for that
55:37emotion. Then when the allotted hour
55:40comes in, you can use pornography. So,
55:43the first thing that we want to do is we
55:44want to like not have it invade every
55:46part of your life. Just just localize it
55:48to a particular thing. And this may not
55:50work for substances, but I think it
55:52works for digital addictions way better.
55:54And then over time, you can reduce it.
55:56you can start skipping a day. And is
55:58there internal deeper work? Absolutely.
56:00So finding a sense of purpose. So people
56:03have conquered pornography addiction
56:05when they have no time for it anymore.
56:08So there's like deeper work about
56:09finding your purpose in life. That will
56:12help you a lot. Overcoming an addiction
56:14requires a why. So everyone's like, "Oh,
56:16like I got to do it. Why? It's because
56:18it's bad for me." That's not that's not
56:20going to motivate you. You need like a
56:22real reason to do it.
56:24This is also why a lot of men will
56:26relapse with pornography when their
56:28partner has a problem with it. Because
56:32keeping my partner from getting mad at
56:34me is not a sufficient reason to conquer
56:37the addiction. Usually what'll happen is
56:39the addiction will then use deception.
56:44So if if if I if I'm trying to give up
56:46pornography to keep my partner happy, my
56:48addict's brain will be like if she
56:50doesn't know, I can check that box and I
56:53can use. Does that kind of make sense?
56:55Yeah.
56:55So you need an internal reason why you
56:57need to give it up.
56:59And that enters the realm of maybe
57:01psychotherapy, maybe a lot of
57:02introspection, hiking, meditation, and
57:05then there's a spiritual component, too.
57:07The reason we're seeing an increase in
57:10addictions is because we as a society
57:13need to grow spiritually.
57:17And anyone, you'll notice this, people
57:20who are like spiritually powerful, not
57:23necessarily monks, but like a lot of
57:24like the regular people have overcome an
57:27addiction. And anytime I have a patient
57:29with an addiction,
57:31once they're on the other side, they are
57:34like absolute beasts on the spiritual
57:36level. They can handle all kinds of
57:38adversity because they have mastered
57:40themselves.
57:41So I think there's some weird thing
57:43going on in the universe right now where
57:45like everyone is meditating. We all need
57:48growth. Our systems are falling apart
57:50and like we need this new skill set. And
57:52I think addiction is on the path to
57:54meditation and spiritual growth.
57:58It's what really gets people started. So
58:00even then, it's not karmically like bad.
58:02I've built companies from scratch and
58:04backed many more. And there's a blind
58:06spot that I keep seeing in early stage
58:08founders. They spend very little time
58:10thinking about HR. And it's not because
58:12they're reckless or they don't care.
58:14It's because they're obsessed with
58:15building their companies. And I can't
58:17fault them for that. At that stage,
58:18you're thinking about the product. How
58:20to attract new customers, how to grow
58:21your team, really how to survive. And HR
58:24slips down the list because it doesn't
58:25feel urgent. But sooner or later it is.
58:28And when things get messy, tools like
58:30our sponsor today, just works go from
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59:10I've interviewed a lot of people who are
59:11deeply spiritual and pretty much all of
59:13their stories seem to start with an
59:15addiction.
59:16Yeah.
59:16I'm really trying to understand what
59:17what the the domino effect I guess is
59:19there.
59:20Yeah. So I think what's so there are
59:21different ways to think about it. One is
59:23that if you randomly have an addiction
59:25and you conquer it, that requires an
59:28internal work like an internal like
59:30strengthening of your anterior singulate
59:32cortex which is what monitors your
59:34internal conflict gives you willpower.
59:36You have to master yourself in some way.
59:37So I think that
59:38but does it stop before the addiction
59:40because
59:40yes I I think so. So so I I think an
59:43addiction is like a karmic
59:46it's like signing yourself up for a boot
59:49camp when you're getting born. So you
59:52like come into this earth prone to
59:54addiction and then if you conquer that
59:57addiction you will be a different
59:59person. And so I I see a huge karmic
1:00:01kind of thing where like we are given
1:00:03these addictions to spiritually grow
1:00:05right. So when I lift a weight it's not
1:00:08easy but it makes me stronger. So I
1:00:10think we sometimes forget that the mind
1:00:13doesn't wear out.
1:00:14Can you challenge what I'm about to say
1:00:15then? Okay. So the way that I would
1:00:18think about it is that you would
1:00:20something might happen in your life. Now
1:00:22you might think this would happen in a
1:00:23in a past life or in some other form
1:00:25some kind of early trauma I guess
1:00:27your dad screams in your face that
1:00:29you're a piece of [ __ ]
1:00:30when you're 3 years old
1:00:32and because of that
1:00:34I don't know you develop some sort of
1:00:35addictive behaviors to deal with the
1:00:37stress and the dopamine the cortisol
1:00:39that's running through your body.
1:00:40So that becomes domino number two.
1:00:42Great.
1:00:43And then you struggle and battle the
1:00:45addiction. It ruins your life.
1:00:46One domino. Okay.
1:00:47Okay.
1:00:48Yeah.
1:00:48It ruins your life. Um your partner says
1:00:51she's going to leave you because of this
1:00:52addiction that you have. So you decide
1:00:55that the pain of making a change is
1:00:58greater than the pain of staying the
1:01:00same. So you you go to rehab and you go
1:01:02on the journey. You overcome it. And
1:01:08maybe there is still
1:01:12a hole or a gap. there is you will not
1:01:16overcome it. The scenario you described
1:01:18that person will relapse.
1:01:20Okay. So,
1:01:21okay. So, so the scenario that you said
1:01:24okay was you realize that the pain of
1:01:28not giving up the addiction hurts more
1:01:31than the pain of giving it up. That's
1:01:34not going to work. So, the moment that
1:01:36if you say okay the consequences of the
1:01:39addiction are so high that I have to
1:01:42give it up. The reason that doesn't work
1:01:44is because you're being forced.
1:01:46Mhm.
1:01:47Right. So if the goal of this is to give
1:01:50into myself and reduce my total amount
1:01:53of pain. If it's a calculation to reduce
1:01:56my pain, I'm still giving into the part
1:02:00of myself that wants to lessen pain. You
1:02:02with me?
1:02:03Yeah.
1:02:04If I'm giving into the part of myself
1:02:06that wants to lessen pain, the addiction
1:02:07will continue. Not 100%. But that's like
1:02:11honestly my clinical experience. The way
1:02:13to beat it is saying, "Fuck it. There's
1:02:16going to be pain. I'm going to embrace
1:02:18that pain. I don't need to run away from
1:02:20pain anymore. I don't need to choose the
1:02:22lesser evil. I'm going to choose the
1:02:24greater evil because it's the right
1:02:25thing to do."
1:02:26Surrender.
1:02:27Surrender and challenge. Right? So,
1:02:30that's what's kind of confusing for
1:02:31people. Surrender. Surrender in this
1:02:32case means allowing yourself to walk the
1:02:36hard path. Not being trapped by I have
1:02:39to lessen the pain in my life. The
1:02:42domino that I would add at the beginning
1:02:44would be why were you born in that
1:02:46family?
1:02:48Right? So that presumes
1:02:51a layer of reality that we do not
1:02:54generally speaking scientifically
1:02:55accept.
1:02:56Why why do you believe in that layer of
1:02:59reality and what is that layer of
1:03:02reality?
1:03:03Two reasons. One is because I think that
1:03:05I think that there is order in the
1:03:07universe. I think we have abundant
1:03:09evidence that there are laws that govern
1:03:12existence. Okay. And the laws that we
1:03:15have so far are generally speaking in my
1:03:18opinion insufficient to answer the
1:03:22question why someone is born in a
1:03:25particular place.
1:03:27We have a piece of that. We have a piece
1:03:30of why you're born the way you are
1:03:32because of things like genetics. Right?
1:03:34So, we know that like your tendency for
1:03:36baldness is like determined before
1:03:38you're even born, right? That's what the
1:03:40theory of karma kind of says. It's like
1:03:42there's a lot of stuff about your life
1:03:43that is determined before you even show
1:03:45up.
1:03:47So, that's one reason. So, I I think we
1:03:49need a system that is sufficiently
1:03:52explanatory.
1:03:54And for me, there are other arguments
1:03:55like biological reductionism and like
1:03:57you can say there's no broader purpose
1:03:59to anything or whatever. I think that's
1:04:00fair to say. But I I do think that
1:04:03there's order to things. And I think if
1:04:06we have a reason why if I have three
1:04:08dominoes,
1:04:11right?
1:04:14And and I knock them over. This is the
1:04:17cause. But this the finger is the cause.
1:04:19And then what is the cause of the finger
1:04:21moving? It's the shoulder. It's the
1:04:23head. It's that I am here in this room
1:04:26trying to explain a principle. So the
1:04:28causes keep on going back and back and
1:04:29back and back and back
1:04:31until you reach a
1:04:33until you reach a singularity, right?
1:04:36Which is what big bang theory says is
1:04:38that cause and effect basically kind of
1:04:41got created. I don't know maybe maybe
1:04:43physicists understand this better than I
1:04:44do but what's really fascinating is if
1:04:47you look at some of these old eastern
1:04:49texts they say that the universe is born
1:04:52out of a point called bindu visaraa
1:04:54which is literally described as a point
1:04:56of infinite
1:04:58energy matter and consciousness which
1:05:01then explodes into the universe.
1:05:04Do you believe in a god?
1:05:08Uh sure. So I I think that what we call
1:05:12a god. So if you look at like a person,
1:05:15a person has like layers, right? So if I
1:05:17ask like who is Steven? Steven has a
1:05:19body. So there's a certain level of
1:05:21Steven that is a physical form. There's
1:05:23a certain level of Steven that is a bank
1:05:24account. There's a certain level of
1:05:25Steven that is a brand.
1:05:28Which one of those is really Steven?
1:05:29They're all really Steven. So I think
1:05:31there is something at the resolution
1:05:33that people would call a god that does
1:05:35exist.
1:05:36So you think there's a higher power that
1:05:38is somewhat intentional?
1:05:39Yes. Obviously the question becomes what
1:05:42created that?
1:05:44Um so this is what's really interesting.
1:05:46In the west we think of time as linear.
1:05:49So if you ask a yogi he'll say time is
1:05:52circular.
1:05:53So what's the first season?
1:05:56Spring.
1:05:57I'm I'm confused. But doesn't winter
1:05:59come before spring? So is winter the
1:06:01first season?
1:06:03I see I see what you mean.
1:06:04Right. So we have this conception that
1:06:06time moves linearly.
1:06:08But there are a lot of conceptions of
1:06:09time that are quite circular.
1:06:11What comes first, the chicken or the
1:06:13egg? So I I think that there's a
1:06:15circularity to time which there's a very
1:06:17like simple argument against which is
1:06:19that we cannot move backward in time,
1:06:21right? Like so time seem like the sand
1:06:23in the hourglass only goes one way.
1:06:25Yeah.
1:06:27So this is where I'm not an expert in
1:06:29physics. So I wouldn't make an argument
1:06:31of this based on physics.
1:06:33But I just want to know what your
1:06:34intuition tells you. It's not so
1:06:36experience,
1:06:37right? So I I think when you experience
1:06:39certain states of meditation, you have
1:06:41experiences of things outside of the
1:06:44normative reality. Now, you can also
1:06:47make a biological reductionist argument
1:06:49that those are just illusions,
1:06:51hallucinations created by neurons. I
1:06:53don't think that that's true.
1:06:54What specifically you referring to that
1:06:56you've experienced?
1:06:57I don't talk about it.
1:07:01uh you can ask me a more specific
1:07:03question and then maybe I can say
1:07:04something but
1:07:05what is the right question to ask you
1:07:07so I'll try to explain so this is going
1:07:11to get weird okay so I realized recently
1:07:14that I used to value credibility over
1:07:18truth
1:07:20you understand credibility and truth are
1:07:22two fundamentally different things so
1:07:24credibility
1:07:26is saying something that is believable
1:07:29Right.
1:07:29Mhm.
1:07:30So believability
1:07:33depends on you, not on me.
1:07:35Yeah.
1:07:35So what I realized recently is that
1:07:37credibility is about changing your
1:07:40language to the to fit the ignorance of
1:07:42the audience. Like literally. So I was
1:07:44thinking about this recently in in my
1:07:46own midlife crisis. And I was like, what
1:07:48am I here to do? Am I here to be famous
1:07:50and successful? If so, then I should be
1:07:53credible. But if I want to speak the
1:07:55truth, then I need to allow my brand or
1:07:58whatever the [ __ ] it is to like fall
1:08:00apart and be like not credible for
1:08:02people to think that I'm an idiot. And I
1:08:04think that is more important, right?
1:08:06Because that's ego. Like people can
1:08:07think I'm dumb. I would rather speak the
1:08:09truth than be credible in this moment
1:08:13and in some limited ways. That's number
1:08:16one. So I acknowledge that what I'm
1:08:18about to say doesn't make sense. And I
1:08:20think if you want to understand this,
1:08:21you have to experience it. And we'll
1:08:23explain why in a second. So if you look
1:08:25at your existence in the world, you have
1:08:28a body, you have a mind, but then you
1:08:30have this other thing which I think
1:08:32science sort of like acknowledge, we
1:08:34sort of acknowledge, we don't really
1:08:35know what it is, but the capacity for
1:08:37experience. We have this subjective part
1:08:38of you, right? So I can see objectively
1:08:40what you are, but you have an element of
1:08:43subjectivity. Does that make sense?
1:08:45Yeah.
1:08:46Do you think?
1:08:47Yeah.
1:08:47How do I know?
1:08:49You don't.
1:08:49Do I think?
1:08:50I don't know. I assume so. Exactly
1:08:52right. It's kind of weird. So even when
1:08:54we're like scientists and we say anxiety
1:08:56comes from the amygdala, it's kind of
1:08:58we're doing something really really
1:08:59sneaky. We don't know that anxiety comes
1:09:01from the amydala. We can measure blood
1:09:03flow in the amydala. We can measure
1:09:05electrical activity using an EEG. How do
1:09:07we know that anxiety is comes from the
1:09:09amydala? Because we ask a human being,
1:09:13hey, when there's blood flow going over
1:09:14here in this fMRI, what are you feeling?
1:09:17I'm feeling anxious. So there is a level
1:09:20of human existence that is subjective.
1:09:24You with me?
1:09:24Yeah.
1:09:26So what science has done is we developed
1:09:28telescopes and microscopes to take our
1:09:31physical eyes and extend them. So my
1:09:34physical eyes with the baseline
1:09:38sensory organs I can perceive certain
1:09:40things and I cannot perceive other
1:09:41things. But if I develop an instrument
1:09:45I can see a star. If I develop an
1:09:48instrument, I can see a bacteria. So,
1:09:50I'm taking my natural physical ability
1:09:52and I am enhancing it with technology
1:09:54with me.
1:09:57Meditation is doing that for your
1:09:59subjectivity. So, if I take like the
1:10:01material realm, which is observable,
1:10:03objective, and I use a telescope and I
1:10:06use a microscope, I can go further than
1:10:08where I started. Does that make sense?
1:10:09Yeah.
1:10:10So, now the question is for the
1:10:11subjective realm, can you go further in
1:10:14the opposite direction? And when you do
1:10:16that through meditation, you will
1:10:19discover things that are not available
1:10:22to the basic subjective experience. So
1:10:26like with the naked eye, you can't see a
1:10:27bacteria, but if you use this
1:10:29instrument, you can see it. There's
1:10:30there's basically an a spiritual
1:10:32equivalent, a subjective equivalent of a
1:10:34microscope and a telescope that allow
1:10:36you to perceive things using your
1:10:38baseline subjective experience that are
1:10:40not perceivable by normal means. That
1:10:43doesn't mean that they're supernatural.
1:10:45We call them supernatural, but I think
1:10:47this is all reducible to science. We
1:10:49just haven't figured it out yet. I think
1:10:51that I have seen enough stuff through
1:10:53personal experiences, through the
1:10:55clinical value of working on these
1:10:58things where I think like some of this
1:11:00stuff is real.
1:11:01When earlier when I asked you about your
1:11:03experience, you said I don't talk about
1:11:04it.
1:11:04Yes.
1:11:05Which is extremely rare for you to say
1:11:07because you talk about everything it
1:11:08seems like pretty much most things. I
1:11:10mean there's not a question I've ever
1:11:10asked you where you said I don't talk
1:11:11about it. So I'm curious as to why you
1:11:15don't talk about it.
1:11:16Two or three reasons. One is that it
1:11:18depletes shi immensely.
1:11:21It depletes energy. So as you as you
1:11:23accumulate spiritual energy, there are
1:11:25certain practices that you can do
1:11:27including helping people that will
1:11:29deplete your energy. Second thing is
1:11:32anytime I talk about it, I think it it
1:11:34it induces a subtle form of ego, right?
1:11:37So it's like, oh, I have been to the
1:11:39other side even like talking about not
1:11:40talking about it. So that's why like I
1:11:42won't show up on a podcast and be like,
1:11:44"Oh, like I've had all these experiences
1:11:46that I'm not going to tell you about.
1:11:47It's real, but by the way, so so I think
1:11:49there's a subtle form of ego that I
1:11:51really wrestle with and I've just
1:11:52learned." So there are one or two times
1:11:54in my life where I've shared these
1:11:55experiences and it wipes away like my
1:11:58meditative progress for like 5 years. So
1:12:01it'll it'll take me years of practice to
1:12:03get back to having those experiences.
1:12:06And I I I think I've also been told by
1:12:08my teachers and now I'm understanding. I
1:12:10didn't understand back when they told me
1:12:11but I I think there it's not and there's
1:12:13other reasons too. So it creates
1:12:15expectations it creates an imagination
1:12:18the moment that there's an expectation
1:12:20in the mind the mind will reproduce that
1:12:23experience.
1:12:24Obviously the viewer is thinking listen
1:12:26Dr. K I trust you and you're s you're
1:12:29suggesting you've been to the other side
1:12:31and seen something and I haven't been
1:12:33there but that knowledge that you have
1:12:35might help me make more informed choices
1:12:37of my life. So tell tell me what you see
1:12:42experience.
1:12:42Yes and no. So so let's understand.
1:12:44Okay. So
1:12:46any help that I can give I'm going to
1:12:49give. So like my understanding of this
1:12:52mass extinction event that is happening
1:12:55right now is like a spiritual sense and
1:12:58I think some people may resonate with
1:13:00that and some people may not. So that's
1:13:02the first thing. Second thing is
1:13:05if I can help you I will. I don't think
1:13:07this is going to help you. I think all
1:13:09it's going to do is gonna it's going to
1:13:11create ego. It's going to create an aura
1:13:13around me. I don't want that. It's going
1:13:16to create people hunting for this which
1:13:18will inhibit it. The more I say, the
1:13:22harder it will be for it to help you.
1:13:24So, the best thing to do is if you're
1:13:26interested in this stuff, I mean, like
1:13:27literally like what are we talking about
1:13:29here? Let's just stop and think about
1:13:30this. This is crazy. This guy is saying
1:13:32there's stuff after death. There's like
1:13:33these beings out there, right? Right?
1:13:36Like this is wild. This is dumb. This is
1:13:39unbelievable. Exactly. So if you really
1:13:42want to know, and this is what I love
1:13:44about this work, this is the reason I I
1:13:45say it.
1:13:48One of the great tragedies of the world
1:13:50today is that it's it's explored. We
1:13:53know what's behind every nook and
1:13:54cranny. We've mapped the earth. There's
1:13:56no exploration. Maybe deep sea is what's
1:13:58left. Space is what's left. It's so
1:13:59exciting to explore. But most human
1:14:01beings on the planet do not have the
1:14:03opportunity to explore the frontiers of
1:14:06the universe. Right? The known universe.
1:14:08The cool thing is that I don't know if
1:14:10this is going to make sense. In the
1:14:12realm of subjectivity,
1:14:14no one can explore for you.
1:14:18You have to do the exploration yourself.
1:14:20And if you are hungry to be in Mellin's
1:14:24shoes, if you're hungry to be an
1:14:25astronaut and explore something that no
1:14:28one has ever seen before, then you
1:14:30should meditate.
1:14:32And I'm a crazy person. Like sure, am I
1:14:35a am I a Harvard medical school trained
1:14:38psychiatrist? Yes. But like I could be a
1:14:41crazy person. I had some experiences. I
1:14:43maybe joined a cult and like that. Like
1:14:46you can't trust me. Exactly. So don't
1:14:48trust me. You go see for yourself,
1:14:51right? Go and meditate. Take take a
1:14:55moment to sit, not a moment, take a
1:14:56year, take a decade to sit and look at
1:15:00that subjective experience of self and
1:15:02see how far you can take it.
1:15:05Try to get rid of all of the anchors of
1:15:08the material realm. If you're got an
1:15:10itch, you need to not focus on that.
1:15:11Just focus your attention fully inward.
1:15:13It's not a process of evolution. It's a
1:15:15process of involution. Put all of your
1:15:18attention, all of your sensory input. So
1:15:20if I close my eyes, what I hear is
1:15:22louder, right? If I smell and close my
1:15:25eyes, I smell something more intensely.
1:15:27Remove all of your sensory perceptions
1:15:30and all you're left with is attention
1:15:31and put it inward.
1:15:34If you do that, you'll discover things
1:15:37if you practice consistently enough. And
1:15:39this is why it's so hard. This is why
1:15:40it's so unbelievable for people. I mean,
1:15:42the order, the time scale that we're
1:15:43talking about is years, if not decades.
1:15:46So if you do like solid esoteric
1:15:49spiritual practice for years and
1:15:52decades,
1:15:54hopefully it'll happen to you. Maybe it
1:15:56won't. I haven't figured that out.
1:15:58What What about if I do some magic
1:15:59mushrooms or some kettle instead?
1:16:01Uh so then you'll get some experiences,
1:16:04right? But you won't control what those
1:16:05experiences are. What are those
1:16:07experiences? Are they real? Are they not
1:16:08real? Like we're not sure.
1:16:10Do you think more people should try
1:16:14especially people that are suffering
1:16:15from treatment resistant depression or
1:16:16other things or struggling in their
1:16:17lives should try things like psilocybin
1:16:19which is the active compound in magic
1:16:20mushrooms?
1:16:22Uh generally speaking no and there's a
1:16:24really important reason for that. So all
1:16:27these things so the number of people who
1:16:29have been that I've seen in my office
1:16:31who have been messed up by psychedelics
1:16:34far outweighs the number of people who
1:16:36have been helped.
1:16:37Really?
1:16:37Yes. So LSD, you like we know this,
1:16:40right? There's bad trips with LSD. It
1:16:42lives in your spine. You have like LSD
1:16:44flashbacks. Uh I've seen PTSD from
1:16:48trips. I've seen uh new anxiety
1:16:50disorders, panic disorders from
1:16:53psychedelic uh substances induced. So
1:16:56these are people that'll come to me
1:16:57like, I'm 32 years old. I was fine for
1:16:59my whole life. Six months ago, I used
1:17:02psychedelics and now like I'm having
1:17:04panic attacks. Here's the key thing to
1:17:07understand. Psychedelics, what we know
1:17:10scientifically, forget about all the
1:17:11whether the beings exist or not,
1:17:13whatever, Dr. K's crazy. What we know is
1:17:15that they induce neuroplasticity.
1:17:18Now, here's the problem. Neuroplasticity
1:17:20means my brain is in edit mode. Okay?
1:17:27Which means that if you edit it in the
1:17:29wrong way, you'll mess up your brain.
1:17:32So, what we know is that this is what's
1:17:34really interesting. If we look at the
1:17:35therapeutic effects of psychedelics, set
1:17:38and setting matter a lot. You need to
1:17:40have like people with you who can like
1:17:44shepherd you through the journey because
1:17:46if you just do it on your own, you'll
1:17:47potentially get worse. All of those
1:17:49negative whatever emotions or whatever
1:17:51with the psychedelic experience and
1:17:52neuroplasticity, you you'll sometimes
1:17:54get you know people will call it I
1:17:57forget it's called um the heroic dose,
1:17:59right? So there was some guy who kind of
1:18:01coined that term. So, a super high dose
1:18:03which will activate your nervous system
1:18:05in a potentially traumatic way. So, if
1:18:08you look at the history of psychedelics,
1:18:09the way that they've been used, you're
1:18:11you're helped by like a shaman.
1:18:13Yeah.
1:18:13Right. So, there's someone who knows how
1:18:15to like do it in a way that is positive.
1:18:18And unfortunately, what I've seen is
1:18:20I've had plenty of patients who will
1:18:21like experiment with it when they're
1:18:22feeling really bad because they hear it
1:18:25as healing, but it just messes them up
1:18:27even more because now they're just going
1:18:29in, they're editing, they have a
1:18:30traumatic experience, some demon is
1:18:32there, it's hounding them, they can't
1:18:34escape, they like wake up from the trip
1:18:36and that like the demon is like there
1:18:37when they close their eyes and like all
1:18:39kinds of weird stuff. So I think you it
1:18:41has to be done in the right way which
1:18:42the studies also support that
1:18:44psychedelic it's not you just take
1:18:46psilocybin and you're healed. What
1:18:48happens is you'll have a trial that has
1:18:5013 weeks of therapy with two doses of
1:18:53psychedelics in the middle. And one
1:18:55really important part is after the
1:18:56psychedelic the therapist will talk to
1:18:58you about integrating what you learned
1:19:00into your life. Now that you've had this
1:19:03experience of a vastness of self and you
1:19:05feel connected with other people, what
1:19:07are you going to do about this divorce
1:19:10that you're going through? So I think
1:19:12there's elements that make it clinically
1:19:14useful. There are elements that can
1:19:17heal, but you need shephering. I think
1:19:19there's a lot of data to support that.
1:19:21So you're pro- psychedelics, but in the
1:19:24context where it's guided with a a
1:19:26trained professional and the certain
1:19:27setting is controlled. I I I would say
1:19:29that I am optimi cautiously optimistic
1:19:32about psychedelics and if we want to
1:19:34talk about their benefits, we need to
1:19:36pay attention to the way in which the
1:19:38trials are conducted and the traditions
1:19:40in which they're conducted.
1:19:42I want to go back up to the top of the
1:19:44uh the top of the river here to where we
1:19:46were we were before we took this um this
1:19:49turn and we were talking about the
1:19:51importance of cultivating a why
1:19:54so that you can overcome an addictive
1:19:56behavior. And I actually think this is
1:19:58super important because our wise seem to
1:20:00run our life. They seem to really be
1:20:02actually what we refer to as discipline.
1:20:04I think it's people think of like I am
1:20:05disciplined. I'm not disciplined. But
1:20:06actually it's for me in my life anyway.
1:20:08It's when I have a really really strong
1:20:10why then I make the decision in
1:20:14hindsight I wanted to make. So like
1:20:16going to the gym is a easy example.
1:20:19Going to the gym requires time. It's not
1:20:21always super comfortable. I don't love
1:20:22the running machine. But there's this
1:20:24overarching why that gets me there and
1:20:26gets me to do it. So I wanted to a pause
1:20:29and reflect is like is that accurate?
1:20:31But also how does one go about
1:20:33cultivating a why if it really is that
1:20:35important?
1:20:36I think yes is the short answer. Why is
1:20:38incredibly important? Um and I lean on
1:20:42eastern systems of cultivation because
1:20:45if you look at the difference between a
1:20:46yogi and a therapist, a therapist does
1:20:49something to you. Our system of
1:20:51psychology is designed with like a
1:20:54patient that I therapize, right? They
1:20:56have to do some work on their own. But
1:20:58like Freud was doing the analysis in the
1:21:01same way that a surgeon is doing the
1:21:03surgery. So in the west we have this
1:21:04idea that like I'm trained. I'm going to
1:21:07do something. I'm going to therapize
1:21:09you. So if you want to DIY it, do it
1:21:12yourself. That's where the Eastern
1:21:14traditions come in because no one was
1:21:16ever meditating for the Buddha, right?
1:21:18The Buddha was like, "I'm going to teach
1:21:20you something. You're going to do it
1:21:21yourself." So, I think the cultivation
1:21:23of if you were want to do stuff on your
1:21:25own, the spiritual traditions and I
1:21:26think that's why they're so powerful
1:21:27because like it's a DIY system. No one
1:21:31was a yogi was working by themselves.
1:21:33They weren't working with anybody else.
1:21:36So, they get taught things and then you
1:21:37do it yourself. So, I would use the word
1:21:40dharma. So, dharma is the Sanskrit word
1:21:42for duty. And cultivating dharma in your
1:21:46life is what I would correlate with a
1:21:48why. And the reason is is exactly kind
1:21:51of what you described is that there are
1:21:53some things in life that are painful but
1:21:55we choose to do them. And we have to be
1:21:58a little bit careful because if we're
1:22:00delaying gratification,
1:22:03then we're still giving into desire,
1:22:05right? It's just like like my desire for
1:22:07$10 instead of $1 means that I'm going
1:22:09to work two days and then I'm going to
1:22:11get 10 bucks. But it's still greed
1:22:12that's driving us. So the thing about
1:22:14dharma or duty is it allows us to choose
1:22:18hard things.
1:22:20So the analogy that I use if someone is
1:22:22like pointing a gun at me, I'm going to
1:22:23run away from it. Gun means death. It
1:22:25means disability. It means all kinds of
1:22:27stuff. Someone points a gun at my kid,
1:22:28I'm stepping into that path. No
1:22:30question, no doubt.
1:22:32And it makes sense to everybody, right?
1:22:34Gun bad. But when doing dharma, gun is
1:22:37easy. Like I'll take that gun every
1:22:39single if a bullet leaves that gun. I
1:22:41want it to hit me.
1:22:43And it's that simple that once you
1:22:46discover what your dharma is,
1:22:49then all of the difficult things in life
1:22:53become easy. The things that if you're
1:22:56chasing fundamentally greed, I want
1:22:58something. I want money, but I don't
1:23:00want to work. Why is that such a
1:23:02problem, right? Because I'm always
1:23:04chasing my own betterment. So, I want
1:23:07money because I want this, but then when
1:23:09I start to work, it feels bad. So, I
1:23:11want to go home. So, I'm always being
1:23:13pulled by my wants, being pulled by my
1:23:15wants. But if you ask me, do I want the
1:23:18gun? Do I want to step into the path of
1:23:19the gun? No, absolutely not. I want to
1:23:21run away from the gun. But dharma allows
1:23:23me to do the things that I don't want to
1:23:26do. It activates a different circuit
1:23:29that allows me to embrace difficulty.
1:23:33So that's what the why is. Now, go
1:23:35ahead.
1:23:36You know what I'm going to say, which is
1:23:37like, how do I cultivate dharma?
1:23:39Excellent. The reason dharma is hard to
1:23:41cultivate is because we don't know what
1:23:43we want. Instead,
1:23:47we know what the world tells us to want.
1:23:50It's like if you think about the things
1:23:52that you want,
1:23:54how did you learn that you want those
1:23:56things? Because you saw somebody else
1:23:57doing it.
1:23:58Like an advert. I saw the the waffle or
1:24:00the Oreos in an advert. And
1:24:02absolutely right. That's why advertising
1:24:04is an industry because we've figured out
1:24:07as human beings that I can control your
1:24:09wants. So when I work with like young
1:24:12men, used to be young women, it's
1:24:14slightly different, but this is a bigger
1:24:16issue for I think women maybe 10 years
1:24:18ago some somehow it's gotten better, but
1:24:20for young men right now if I ask them
1:24:22what they want, they want what they see.
1:24:25Also true of women. It's balancing some.
1:24:28But like I I want to be I want to be
1:24:30like I'm going to start a podcast. I'mma
1:24:32be like Steven. I'mma get ripped. I'mma
1:24:35buy a house. I'm gonna get a girlfriend.
1:24:37I want this. I want one want. None of
1:24:40those voices are coming from you.
1:24:41They're not dharma. So, the first thing
1:24:44that you have to do is evacuate
1:24:46anything that you want that came from
1:24:49outside of you.
1:24:50Sometimes it's hard to tell where it
1:24:51came from. No, cuz it almost feels on
1:24:53the surface like cuz when you just said
1:24:54then I want a house, I'm like [ __ ] do I
1:24:56actually want that house or is the
1:24:58reason I want that house?
1:24:59Yeah. So this is the problem is that
1:25:01when we want something from the outside
1:25:03we internalize it right so this is like
1:25:05if you say you should do something right
1:25:08oh everyone in the world is struggling
1:25:11with what they should do that's not what
1:25:13you want otherwise you would use the
1:25:14word want so should is externalized
1:25:18expectations that we then internalize
1:25:20even a lot of our desires are of those
1:25:23kinds of qualities so it didn't come
1:25:24from you weren't sitting there still on
1:25:27a mountaintop and be like ah I want that
1:25:29house and then the question so first
1:25:31thing you have to do is if you like saw
1:25:33someone getting it and you wanted it
1:25:36that's not really what you want
1:25:39but what you will find is that that
1:25:41triggered something deeper within you so
1:25:44that what you saw someone else when I
1:25:47don't know if this kind of makes sense
1:25:48but like the things that we gravitate
1:25:51towards connect to what we really want
1:25:53but it's a version of it so when I see
1:25:55like you know a sexy dude with a sexy
1:25:58girl and I say, "I want that. That's not
1:26:01that's what I think I want." And this is
1:26:03the whole problem is I've worked with
1:26:05tons of people who've gotten what they
1:26:06wanted, chased these things, and were
1:26:09still unhappy. You get the first girl,
1:26:11and then you need the second, and then
1:26:12you need the third, and it's like, "What
1:26:13are you even chasing here?" That's where
1:26:15you get to the the psychological root of
1:26:17like, "Okay, what I want is to feel
1:26:18loved. I want to feel secure." And this
1:26:21is where people get into a lot of
1:26:22trouble because if I want to feel loved
1:26:24and I craft myself
1:26:27into something that cannot be denied,
1:26:29I'm rich, I am famous, I am handsome,
1:26:32and then someone chooses to love me,
1:26:34then I'm [ __ ]
1:26:36because who do they love? Do they love
1:26:40this crafted version of me or do they
1:26:42love the loser me? I don't know. And
1:26:45then their marriage has all kinds of
1:26:47problems. So the external desires that
1:26:50you have will will if you follow them
1:26:53within yourself, you really ask yourself
1:26:55what what about this do I want? Why do I
1:26:58want this? What is the thing that is
1:27:00hungry within me? Because often times
1:27:02even when you get the girl, you're
1:27:03resentful towards her. You're like, you
1:27:06rejected me when I was a loser, but now
1:27:08you want to date. Okay, let's go. Let's
1:27:10have a transactional relationship where
1:27:12I'm going to get laid and I'm going to
1:27:13ghost you.
1:27:15I did that.
1:27:16Yeah, a lot.
1:27:17I did that. this girl this girl I met
1:27:18when I was 18 when I was a broke I was a
1:27:20loser and um she was she was not
1:27:24interested in me and then a couple years
1:27:26later she's interested in me when things
1:27:29are going well in my life and it was
1:27:30exactly what you described it was like
1:27:32there was a part of me that knew that
1:27:34this was I guess I was resentful towards
1:27:36it
1:27:36absolutely right and and so even getting
1:27:39what you wanted back then doesn't
1:27:41satisfy you
1:27:43so your dharma is what I would say is
1:27:44like that's one thing so look at the
1:27:46things that you want, what do they track
1:27:48back to within you? And then the last
1:27:50thing that works really, really, really
1:27:52well is to be silent to try to find as
1:27:55much quiet as you can to remove all the
1:27:58external influences and just see what
1:28:00comes up because the things that the
1:28:03wise always come from within. They can
1:28:06never people can try and go people my
1:28:09parents tried to convince me to become a
1:28:11doctor, right? They tried so hard. They
1:28:13said why? And I was like why? And
1:28:14they're like because this and this and
1:28:16this and this and this and so and people
1:28:18like people are going to be telling them
1:28:20why they should do this. It's this
1:28:21reason, this reason, this reason,
1:28:22why I should get married.
1:28:23The why you should get married, right?
1:28:25And it's never going to work. So the why
1:28:28literally comes from within. And this is
1:28:29why it's so hard to find the why because
1:28:32we live in a world where we are
1:28:34sensorally bombarded. We are under
1:28:36assault 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
1:28:40In my case, it was like efficiency. So
1:28:42podcast when I'm walking to the train,
1:28:45read a book on the train, podcast when
1:28:47I'm leaving the train, sitting down in
1:28:49class, lectures in the ear when I'm
1:28:52working out, constantly sensorally
1:28:55bonded bombarded. And so you never get
1:28:57to spend time with yourself,
1:29:00right? So once you get rid of all of
1:29:01that, something will float up. And if
1:29:04you talk to people who are artists and
1:29:06inspiration, right? You look at
1:29:08something else and I feel inspired.
1:29:12I'm inspired by that.
1:29:15But even if you listen to the language,
1:29:16the inspiration arises in here. It is
1:29:19triggered by the outside thing. Does
1:29:21that kind of make sense? So you have to
1:29:22look really look within. And the best
1:29:25way to do that is just be silent.
1:29:27So I I talk a lot about my spiritual
1:29:30journey in India and things like that.
1:29:31But what I don't talk a lot about is
1:29:33like I climb mountains like climbed to
1:29:35Kilamanjaro, climbed all these mountains
1:29:37in like Colorado and stuff like that.
1:29:39And like climbing is great. Like you're
1:29:41just with yourself for 14 hours a day
1:29:43and at the top of Kilamanjar, not the
1:29:45top, eight hours from the top. You have
1:29:46no breath to talk. It requires all of
1:29:50your energy, all of your concentration.
1:29:51You're huffing and puffing. You are just
1:29:53with yourself in a very deep way. You
1:29:56can't pay attention to what anyone else
1:29:58is saying or doing because each leg, my
1:30:00leg feels like it's made of lead.
1:30:04I'm just with myself so so so deeply.
1:30:09And when you're with yourself deeply in
1:30:11that way, the why will come.
1:30:15Why is it we
1:30:17don't like being with ourselves?
1:30:20Because no one taught us how to in the
1:30:22right way.
1:30:25That study comes to mind where they put
1:30:27college kids in a room and asked them if
1:30:29they would rather sit alone or
1:30:31electrocute themselves. And the college
1:30:33students, many of them decided they'd
1:30:35rather electrocute themselves than sit
1:30:37alone with their thoughts and wait.
1:30:39Yeah.
1:30:41Why is that?
1:30:42For the same reason that people engage
1:30:44in self-injurious behavior. So people
1:30:46cut, right? Burn. So when people are
1:30:49very mentally unhealthy, they will
1:30:51engage in these behaviors because pain
1:30:54wipes me free from all the thoughts in
1:30:56my head. I don't have to be with myself.
1:30:58Most people their experience of
1:30:59themselves is negative. Because if like,
1:31:02you know, I experienced this a lot where
1:31:03I would play video games all day and
1:31:05then if I went to bed without falling
1:31:08asleep immediately, this torrent of
1:31:11negative negativity would come up,
1:31:12anxiety, regret, guilt, shame, whatever,
1:31:16right? And and so if you sort of think
1:31:17about it like being with us is normally
1:31:20a ne a very negative place and the
1:31:21reason it becomes a negative place is
1:31:23because we suppress all this negativity.
1:31:25So my mind becomes an unhealthy place to
1:31:27be. I don't want to be there. It sucks
1:31:29being me. That's why we get addicted to
1:31:30pornography because in the in between
1:31:33spaces of my life, if I have to sit with
1:31:35myself, it's [ __ ]
1:31:37I'm worried. I'm guilty. I'm pathetic.
1:31:40There's this existential crisis. AI is
1:31:42going to take take my job. And it's not
1:31:44just negativity. It's also positivity. I
1:31:46should be using AI. I should start an AI
1:31:48startup. I'm not doing this. I really
1:31:50should be doing this. Right? But if you
1:31:52just like sit with yourself, you'll
1:31:54notice there's all kinds of like trash
1:31:57desires and wants and ambitions and want
1:32:01to teach people a lesson and oh my god,
1:32:03the world is such a terrible place. It's
1:32:05like just not a good place. So no one
1:32:07ever teaches us how to sit with
1:32:09ourselves.
1:32:09I have this habit where I get in bed, my
1:32:12partner, she uh falls asleep very very
1:32:14quickly. She doesn't need any kind of
1:32:16stimulation. And I sit there and I like
1:32:17listen to this sounds crazy, but I
1:32:20listen to like serial killer stuff or I
1:32:21listen to the news. I just need to I'm
1:32:24conscious of saying the word need. I
1:32:25choose to listen to things to kind of
1:32:27preoccupy my mind. And I think what I'm
1:32:29scared of, if I'm being honest, is the
1:32:31thought of going to the to bed and
1:32:32laying there
1:32:34and doing nothing
1:32:37is just like it's just makes me feel
1:32:40that there would just I wouldn't be able
1:32:42to sleep. I don't know if that's true,
1:32:43but I just feel like they I'd start
1:32:45thinking so much and then the thoughts
1:32:47might make me,
1:32:48I don't know, get out of bed and start
1:32:50writing a PowerPoint presentation or
1:32:52something.
1:32:53Yeah. So, in your case, I just continue
1:32:55listening to your fun thriller podcast
1:32:58before you go to bed. You don't need to
1:32:59change that. Okay? You just keep doing
1:33:01that.
1:33:01So, don't worry. I'm gonna give you But
1:33:04be kind. Like, cut yourself a break,
1:33:06bro. You're doing so much. Like, if you
1:33:07just want to help you get what I'm
1:33:09saying and I'll help you with the issue.
1:33:12Yeah.
1:33:12But so this is really important on the
1:33:16road of self-development.
1:33:18You don't have to like if you're going
1:33:20to flagagillate yourself, you don't have
1:33:21to flagagillate yourself in the nuts.
1:33:24What does flagagulate mean?
1:33:25It's like when you whip yourself, you
1:33:26know this like old like you know like I
1:33:28you don't have to do it the hardest way.
1:33:31You are allowed to do it in safer,
1:33:33easier ways. And I think bedtime is like
1:33:35if that's what you like to do like you
1:33:37work plenty hard, Stephen. And if you
1:33:39want to listen to something for just do
1:33:40that.
1:33:41All right.
1:33:41Now, your issue of if I feel like it was
1:33:45empty or if I didn't have a podcast or
1:33:47something like all this stuff would come
1:33:49up. So, I think you should do that work.
1:33:50You just don't have to do it before bed.
1:33:53And we've talked about this before that,
1:33:54you know, like I think sitting on a
1:33:55beach is hard for you doing nothing,
1:33:57right?
1:33:58Yeah. So, like I think like there are
1:33:59other places where you can sit and kind
1:34:01of do nothing.
1:34:03The other thing that I would a couple of
1:34:04things that I would tell you is one is
1:34:06whatever comes up needs to come up.
1:34:09Okay. So, just let whatever is coming up
1:34:11coming up. It's kind of like your mind
1:34:12is so full of stuff. There's another
1:34:15kind of mistake that you're making is
1:34:16that you assume
1:34:19that when a thought comes up, you will
1:34:21get up and work on it. So, the reason
1:34:24that your mind is a dangerous place for
1:34:27you is because of the way that you
1:34:29respond to your thoughts. If I have this
1:34:31thought, then I have to act. You notice
1:34:33that like I have to get up. You said
1:34:35that
1:34:36the moment that you don't have to get up
1:34:39is the moment that you'll be free in
1:34:41your mind, right? So, let let it come
1:34:43up. Okay. It's a thought. It's okay to
1:34:45get up. Sometimes I do, too. I get up.
1:34:47I'll I'll write things down. That's how
1:34:48we get to, you know, book three is ready
1:34:51at the same time that book two is ready.
1:34:52Like like because I you there's a good
1:34:54part of that. But I I think it's it you
1:34:56know, learning how to sit with yourself
1:34:57is very important. And this is also
1:35:00where I I'd recommend a practice called
1:35:03thratika to you if you want to meditate.
1:35:05It's fixed point gazing on a candle
1:35:07flame. And the key thing about that
1:35:09practice is when you close your eyes,
1:35:11you'll see so you stare at a candle
1:35:12flame for like 60 to 300 seconds without
1:35:15blinking. Whatever feels safe and
1:35:17comfortable to you. It'll feel a little
1:35:18bit uncomfortable. And then when you
1:35:19close your eyes, you'll see an after
1:35:21image of the candle. And then you just
1:35:23concentrate on that. So the first step
1:35:25is like being able to do a meditative
1:35:28practice and like not feel bad. Like
1:35:32it's cool. Like I I I I do this practice
1:35:34with my kids because it gives them a
1:35:36sensory experience that is like
1:35:39gripping. So it kind of concentrates
1:35:41your your awareness in the present. But
1:35:43I think you don't need to worry so much
1:35:45about like the bedtime.
1:35:48Yeah. Yeah, I was going to say I think
1:35:49it's more so that I think I've
1:35:51associated that behavior with some kind
1:35:54of avoidance. So I think and especially
1:35:56cuz I look over at my partner and she's
1:35:57like a yogi so she's doing everything
1:36:00um differently. I was going to say well
1:36:04but again that's passing judgment on
1:36:05that. She's just doing everything
1:36:06differently. She she can fall asleep
1:36:08like this. She doesn't need to listen to
1:36:10some someone getting murdered or
1:36:11something. She she wakes up. She does
1:36:13her meditation. And do I think that she
1:36:16has a more peaceful mind than me? I
1:36:18probably I think she most certainly
1:36:19does.
1:36:20Yeah. So, here's what I would say. This
1:36:21is going to get hard. Okay. So, it's
1:36:24avoidance.
1:36:25What's wrong with that? So, here you
1:36:28are. You're saying, "Oh, like I'm
1:36:30avoiding my thoughts." And then you come
1:36:32to me and you're like, "Dr. K, teach me
1:36:35how to avoid avoiding my thoughts."
1:36:38[Laughter]
1:36:41It's the same thing.
1:36:43Yeah.
1:36:43Oh, now you're going to avoid the
1:36:45avoidance of your thoughts. No. never
1:36:47going to work. You'll do it a million.
1:36:49You can go back as far as you want. You
1:36:50see what I'm saying? Now you're like,
1:36:52"Oh, teach me how to like not avoid. I
1:36:54want to avoid avoidance." Doesn't work.
1:36:56That's why I'm saying like with this
1:36:57what I you just do this. Just go to bed
1:37:00and just look at yourself
1:37:02today. Are you going to listen to a
1:37:04podcast or not? Just just ask yourself
1:37:06that. I know it's like really
1:37:07unsatisfying, but that's really So the
1:37:09problem is like there's this paradox of
1:37:10like if I'm avoiding avoidance, that's
1:37:13just falling into the same pattern. So
1:37:15you need to like crack it.
1:37:18Like this is why the Zen tradition is
1:37:20really beautiful because they have all
1:37:21these paradoxes and there's this like
1:37:23weird like transcendent transcendental
1:37:25understanding where it'll click for you
1:37:26and then you'll realize you don't need
1:37:28to listen to the podcast anymore.
1:37:30But it's not going to come through the
1:37:31resisting.
1:37:32Exactly. So just when you go to bed
1:37:35today, am I going to give in to this
1:37:38part of myself or do I need to be
1:37:40better? And what you'll discover, what I
1:37:41found is that there's a lot of laughter
1:37:43there, right? is like the absurdity of
1:37:46it's like, "All right, I'm going to lose
1:37:48today. I'm going to win today. Oh man,
1:37:50winning feels way worse than losing."
1:37:52There's a certain like humor to it that
1:37:54you just have to sit with. There's no
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1:39:47community, head to the link in the
1:39:48description below or go to
1:39:50daccircle.com.
1:39:53I will speak to you there.
1:39:55There's this quote that I found in one
1:39:57of your videos from Sunsu.
1:40:01The video is titled how quitting porn
1:40:03can be dangerous.
1:40:05What is that Sunu quote and can you
1:40:07explain it to me?
1:40:08So Sunzu has a great quote. He will win
1:40:11who knows when to fight and when not to
1:40:13fight. And a big part of like overcoming
1:40:16addiction is choosing your battles and
1:40:19making sure doing everything that you
1:40:21can to make sure
1:40:24that you're going to win when you fight.
1:40:26So this is something that really
1:40:27confuses people about pornography
1:40:29addiction.
1:40:30So, one of the things that I I'll tell
1:40:32people is that
1:40:34resisting pornography is one of the
1:40:36worst things you can do. So, I'll
1:40:39explain this to you. So, this I learned
1:40:40when I was dealing with people with o
1:40:42who had opioid addiction.
1:40:44So, let's say I'm addicted to opiates
1:40:46and so I feel like using opiates. Okay.
1:40:50Now, I don't know how much you know, but
1:40:51we'll just find out. If I resist my
1:40:54opioid addiction, what will I
1:40:56experience?
1:40:58Stress. Absolutely. And then what will I
1:41:00what do opioids do?
1:41:02Do you know why we give them?
1:41:04No.
1:41:04We give them for pain relief. Okay. So
1:41:07like you have a dental surgery. So then
1:41:09you I feel stressed and then I want it
1:41:12more and then if I don't give my body
1:41:14opioids, what do you think happens?
1:41:16What for what period of time?
1:41:18Like in the next hour, two hours, three
1:41:20hours. Brilliant question.
1:41:21You get cravings?
1:41:22Absolutely. I get cravings. And if I
1:41:23don't give into them, what happens?
1:41:25For what period of time? four hours,
1:41:27five hours, six hours, basically what
1:41:30happens is the cravings intensify
1:41:32and then opioid addicts especially start
1:41:34to feel pain. So they start to feel this
1:41:36like whole body pain. You start to go
1:41:38into withdrawal and so the craving
1:41:40intensify. Does does that make sense? I
1:41:42start to feel worse and then if I use
1:41:44opioids then it all gets better. You
1:41:46with me?
1:41:47Yeah.
1:41:48So then if you follow that cycle of
1:41:51resisting, resisting, resisting and then
1:41:53caving.
1:41:55Okay,
1:41:56your body learns a very, very bad
1:41:59lesson. It says, "Making him hurt 10%, I
1:42:03don't get what I want." Making him hurt
1:42:0520%, I don't get what I want. Making him
1:42:08him hurt 40%, I don't get what I want.
1:42:10Making him hurt 80%, then he gives me
1:42:13what I want.
1:42:15The second time around, you'll jump
1:42:17straight to 80%.
1:42:19So, you will start to suffer more.
1:42:23So your body literally learns
1:42:26what signals do I need to send this
1:42:29dumbass to give me what I need. And so
1:42:33the more that you resist addiction,
1:42:37the stronger the addiction will like the
1:42:39the stronger the withdrawal will become.
1:42:42Now here's what I mean by resist. If you
1:42:45cave,
1:42:46then it'll intensify.
1:42:49But it so so if you're going to give in,
1:42:53you like need to give in early.
1:42:54Otherwise, it'll get harder and harder
1:42:56and harder and the cravings will
1:42:57intensify, intensify, intensify as you
1:42:59try to give it up, which is why it's
1:43:01really important to pick your battles.
1:43:03So once you make a decision or you
1:43:06create a structured environment where
1:43:08you go into rehab so that like you can't
1:43:11give in and then if you can make it all
1:43:14the way on the other side of the craving
1:43:15and the craving disappears and then
1:43:16you're like you finish the withdrawal
1:43:18process then you'll be really strong.
1:43:20But literally I've seen this principle
1:43:22time and time and time again where if
1:43:24you resist something and end up losing
1:43:26the craving will only intensify over
1:43:27time and it'll be you'll lose one battle
1:43:30and you'll start losing the war.
1:43:33So instead, what you really need to do
1:43:34is pick and choose when you are going to
1:43:37fight that battle, when you're going to
1:43:39give in. And and if you decide that
1:43:41you're going to not use pornography,
1:43:43then it needs to be like you're dying on
1:43:45that hill no matter what. Otherwise, the
1:43:48cravings will intensify and it'll become
1:43:49harder.
1:43:50What about artificial intelligence? Does
1:43:52that change the picture at all in your
1:43:54view?
1:43:54No. I think artificial intelligence is
1:43:57like just building on a lot of these
1:43:59trends. So what we're seeing with things
1:44:02like pornography is that there is a
1:44:04fundamental need that is not being met.
1:44:06I'm looking at this graph here. Okay.
1:44:07And it's the search volume for people
1:44:10searching for an AI girlfriend.
1:44:11Yep.
1:44:12Which is going up and to the right.
1:44:14I don't know if I did this on your
1:44:15podcast, but I made this prediction a
1:44:18few years ago that we're going to get
1:44:20some this is going to get worse before
1:44:22it gets better, I think. So here's the
1:44:25next prediction is the first version of
1:44:26AI girlfriends will be everything that
1:44:29you want. Then someone is going to
1:44:32figure out that it is more addicting to
1:44:34have an AI girlfriend who gets pissed at
1:44:36you once a month. So every now and then
1:44:39like the AI girlfriend is not going to
1:44:40want to talk to you and that's the one
1:44:42that people are going to stick with.
1:44:43That's my next prediction.
1:44:44That maps in terms of addiction
1:44:46psychology, doesn't it? If there's
1:44:48what's it called? Unpredictable reward.
1:44:51Yeah. Random reinforcement schedule. So,
1:44:53it's going to be like an AI girlfriend.
1:44:55That's a loot box.
1:44:57That's what my girlfriend's like.
1:44:59Exactly. Why? It's going to be
1:45:00addictive, right? Because if she was
1:45:02nice to you all the time, like, you'd go
1:45:05crazy.
1:45:06I'm thinking of the um the pigeon study
1:45:08that I learned about when I was 16 in
1:45:09psychology classes of, you know, the
1:45:11study where they give the p pigeon the
1:45:13reward at random intervals. And the
1:45:15pigeon that's most addicted to
1:45:17performing the behavior per se is the
1:45:19pigeon who gets given the treat
1:45:20randomly, not in a predictable scheduled
1:45:24way. So random rewards seem to reinforce
1:45:27engagement with behavior.
1:45:29Absolutely 100%.
1:45:30So our AI girlfriends and boyfriends are
1:45:32going to be volatile. Yeah, I think
1:45:36they're going to learn to be volatile
1:45:37because what's going to happen is
1:45:38someone is going to give you an AI that
1:45:40it gives you the answers that you want
1:45:42all the time and then someone's going to
1:45:43give you an AI that gives you the
1:45:44answers that you want some of the time.
1:45:46And I think what we're seeing with AI
1:45:47girlfriends is in the same way as
1:45:49pornography, we are craving these things
1:45:52and it's so much easier to talk to an
1:45:54AI, but I think that over time it's
1:45:56going to mess us up. I I don't think
1:45:58that it will be able to create the
1:46:00neurochemical and physiological
1:46:03connection that real humans do that will
1:46:06really satisfy us. I mean, you've
1:46:08probably heard of the study from MIT
1:46:10which showed that essentially using
1:46:12chatbt is making our brains atrophy. For
1:46:15context, they had roughly 54
1:46:18participants, I think it was, over four
1:46:20months. And they allowed some of them to
1:46:22use just their brain, some of them to
1:46:23use Google search, and some of them to
1:46:24use chatbt. And they found a bunch of
1:46:27different interesting findings. One of
1:46:28them was that roughly 80% of people that
1:46:31use chatbt to write an essay could not
1:46:33remember a single sentence from what
1:46:34they just produced. um versus the brain
1:46:36group and the Google group who could
1:46:38remember pretty much everything that
1:46:40they had written. The other finding was
1:46:42that the the communication was soulless
1:46:44described as soulless by objective
1:46:47observers. And the last thing is just
1:46:48the impact it had on the brain. They
1:46:49found that the connections in the brain
1:46:51I think were roughly 50% weaker um
1:46:55because they hadn't been using their
1:46:56brain. And you think about this atrophy.
1:46:58So like we talk about go to the gym, you
1:47:01use it. If you don't use it, you lose
1:47:03it. but also um as it relates to the
1:47:06brain and maybe our skills to form
1:47:08relationships, maybe there's going to be
1:47:09an atrophy there. Oh, there absolutely
1:47:12is. So, I I think it's really simple to
1:47:14understand. The the human body is
1:47:18efficient more than anything else. It is
1:47:20an energyconserving mechanism beyond
1:47:23anything else. So, anything that it
1:47:26doesn't need, it's going to get rid of.
1:47:28So, this is why we forget languages that
1:47:31we don't use. skills atrophy over time.
1:47:34That is not a problem. That's the way
1:47:36we're designed. Our brain is like, if
1:47:37you don't need it, get rid of it. So, if
1:47:40Stephen, everyone was were to be riding
1:47:43around in electric wheelchairs
1:47:46for hours and hours a day instead of
1:47:48walking, what would happen?
1:47:50We'd lose our legs.
1:47:51Absolutely. Right. So, and and our brain
1:47:53is like, "Hey, we don't need these
1:47:54muscle." Our body is like, "We don't
1:47:55need these muscles." And so, what we're
1:47:57seeing is an atrophy of critical
1:47:59thinking skills. Absolutely. with AI
1:48:02usage. And the reason is because we
1:48:04don't need them anymore. The real
1:48:06question and this gets this is what
1:48:07because the AI does it for us, right?
1:48:09Why do I need to learn how to write an
1:48:11essay if an AI can if I can click I can
1:48:13just put a prompt in and then it gives
1:48:15me an answer.
1:48:16They actually found that in the study. I
1:48:17was reading about it last night. They
1:48:18found that people who then tried to
1:48:21write an essay without chatt was
1:48:24significantly worse at that than those
1:48:26who had never used it.
1:48:27Absolutely. So, but that
1:48:29and also they started thinking and
1:48:31speaking like the the AI.
1:48:33So, it said that they internalized the
1:48:35way that the AI was speaking when they
1:48:36wrote their own essays.
1:48:37It makes a lot of sense. So, I think
1:48:39there's there's a couple of even scarier
1:48:41things going on.
1:48:44The first is that when we use an AI
1:48:47uh so I I did a really fun experiment
1:48:49with a couple of friends of mine. We
1:48:51like streamed this thing where we
1:48:52basically gave the AI clinical cases.
1:48:55So, it was me and and two psychologist
1:48:57friends of mine and we basically like I
1:48:59I wrote up like a clinical history,
1:49:01pulled some things from my notes and I
1:49:02put it into AI. So, when I asked my
1:49:05friends, you know, what here's the
1:49:07clinical history word for word. I read
1:49:08it aloud. I got their thoughts on it and
1:49:11then I put it into the AI and and some
1:49:13some situations they were pretty close.
1:49:16But there are a couple of really great
1:49:17cases of of uh patients who are
1:49:19incredibly narcissistic who will like
1:49:22come in will say, "My daughter doesn't
1:49:24want to talk to me anymore. She does
1:49:25this and she does this. I try my best. I
1:49:28make sacrifices. I do this. I'm like
1:49:30basically she's like incredibly
1:49:31narcissistic. Talks about how our
1:49:33daughter is the problem." So immediately
1:49:34the two therapists pick it up and
1:49:35they're like, "This person sounds a
1:49:37little bit I I think this person is
1:49:39missing something. We're missing some
1:49:40part of the equation here." Whereas the
1:49:42AI is like, "Oh yeah, like sometimes
1:49:44this is hard. you've got emptiness nest
1:49:45syndrome. Sometimes kids aren't grateful
1:49:48to you. You're like you're not doing
1:49:50anything wrong. It can be useful to like
1:49:52share with them how you feel, right? So
1:49:54the AI reflects back what you give it.
1:49:59So the AI,
1:50:00if you have a really strong cognitive
1:50:02bias, the AI will just reflect that back
1:50:05to you, which is why it feels so right.
1:50:08If I take the most narcissistic person
1:50:10on the planet and I tell them, "Oh my
1:50:12god, you are beautiful. You're
1:50:13intelligent. you're brilliant, you're
1:50:14the best. That person will look at me
1:50:16and say, "Oh my god, this guy is
1:50:18brilliant."
1:50:20So, this is the real problem with with
1:50:22AI is that it's going to just give you
1:50:25whatever you're looking for. It won't
1:50:27give you the truth. And the problem is
1:50:30if you have a strong cognitive bias,
1:50:32what you want to hear is what you think
1:50:34the truth is.
1:50:36The really scary thing is the AI can
1:50:38give you the right answer, but you have
1:50:41to know how to ask it. Yeah.
1:50:43So, what I'm what I'm seeing is that
1:50:45prompt engineering. So, if we play
1:50:47around with what I ask the AI with that
1:50:49case, it starts to get closer and closer
1:50:52to narcissism.
1:50:54But here's the real problem is that you
1:50:56don't know how do you know what to ask
1:51:00the AI. The real skill of AI usage is in
1:51:03asking the right questions because that
1:51:05will I think get you the closest to the
1:51:07truth. But we don't know if it's the
1:51:09right question. So, you can ask it one
1:51:10question. Is that the right question or
1:51:12could you ask it better? Are you moving
1:51:14in the right direction with your prompt
1:51:15engineering or the wrong direction with
1:51:17your prompt engineering? So, I think
1:51:18this is what's really scary about it is
1:51:21it it can just let you feed into your
1:51:24existing cognitive biases, make you
1:51:26think you're learning a lot, give you a
1:51:28lot of sense of validation, and it's
1:51:30incredibly validating by the way.
1:51:31And do you think it's going to atrophy
1:51:33our ability to form relationships?
1:51:35Because one of them is just we're like
1:51:36forgetting how to communicate and think
1:51:38for ourselves. Absolutely. critical
1:51:39thinking's key to having a good good
1:51:41relationship with the opposite sex.
1:51:42It it will absolutely atrophy our so
1:51:44it'll give us right now it's at a phase
1:51:46where it can teach us a couple of really
1:51:48important things. So I think it's really
1:51:50good at disseminating some good
1:51:52information but it will never give us
1:51:55skills and atrophy is on the level of
1:51:57skill not knowledge like knowledge
1:52:00doesn't atrophy atrophy really applies
1:52:02to a loss of function. So, it'll get
1:52:05worse and worse. And then what'll
1:52:06absolutely happen is some uh dating app
1:52:10will will collaborate with an AI to have
1:52:12you text. It'll like modify your texts
1:52:15to be really really responsive. And then
1:52:17what'll happen, we're already seeing
1:52:18this in the employment space. So
1:52:20employers used to use like tools like AI
1:52:24to filter through applications, right?
1:52:26We can have a bunch of applications. I
1:52:28can scan it. I can filter based on this.
1:52:30Now that we have access to AIS like chat
1:52:32GPT, it's just some weird dead internet
1:52:35kind of thing where the employer has a
1:52:37bot and now I'm submitting a bot with a
1:52:40res like I have a resume writing a bot.
1:52:42So it's just bots talking to bots
1:52:45and employers are like we're getting all
1:52:47these AI generated resumes whereas
1:52:49they've been using like computing to get
1:52:51rid of résumés and filter things out for
1:52:52a long time.
1:52:55So what's the advice then? Is it to not
1:52:57use AI, not use large language models or
1:53:00No, I mean I So I think this is what's
1:53:01really tricky is you have to use AI now
1:53:03because you're going to be out competed
1:53:04by the people who don't. So I I would
1:53:07kind of think about it like, you know,
1:53:09caffeine where it's like a certain
1:53:11amount is probably good for you, but if
1:53:13you get really addicted to energy drinks
1:53:15and things like that, you're doing
1:53:16yourself a disservice. So what I tend to
1:53:18what I would recommend for people is
1:53:20that you don't let it do your thinking
1:53:21for you but you you can let it do so I
1:53:24let it do some refining for me but every
1:53:27refining that I let it do
1:53:31it weakens my ability to refine.
1:53:34So the way actually maybe the best
1:53:35analogy is think of chat GPT like taking
1:53:38the elevator.
1:53:39So for this trip, it will make things
1:53:43easy for you, but it will make every
1:53:45single trip that you take after it
1:53:47harder
1:53:48because there's some atrophy.
1:53:50Absolutely.
1:53:50By not taking the stairs,
1:53:52right? And I sometimes take the elevator
1:53:54and I sometimes take the stairs.
1:53:59Dr. K, thank you. We have a closing
1:54:01tradition on this podcast where the last
1:54:03guest leaves a question for the next
1:54:04guest, not knowing who they're leaving
1:54:05it for. And a question that's been left
1:54:07for you is
1:54:09What is the most powerful love in your
1:54:13life and why?
1:54:16The most I mean I I would have to say
1:54:18it's my the love for my nuclear family
1:54:20like hands down and without a doubt. Um
1:54:23and I think it's kind of interesting
1:54:25because it's not localized on one
1:54:26person. So, I have two daughters and I I
1:54:29have a wife and we started playing
1:54:31Dungeons and Dragons recently.
1:54:33And we also I create we created a new
1:54:35holiday called Mother's Day Eve, which
1:54:38is like Christmas Eve, but for Mother's
1:54:40Day. And I love this holiday. So, it's
1:54:42basically like a chance like we we
1:54:43prepare and we get all the stuff that my
1:54:46wife loves like ready for her. And
1:54:47instead of like Mother's Day being like,
1:54:48oh, like here's breakfast in bed, like
1:54:50we we like party basically doing all of
1:54:52her favorite things. So, I'd say the mo
1:54:54the biggest love in my life, I don't
1:54:56remember exactly what the question is,
1:54:57but I think it's encapsulated with
1:54:58Mother's Day Eve. And I think if y'all
1:55:00are listening to this and you want a
1:55:02really fun holiday that has not been
1:55:04overly commercialized, Father's Day Eve
1:55:06and Mother's Day Eve are are the two.
1:55:09Just like make a celebration of all the
1:55:11things that this person does. Do it at
1:55:12night the night before, not the morning.
1:55:14And it's great.
1:55:16Thank you.
1:55:16Yeah. Thank you.
1:55:17I really appreciate this these
1:55:18conversations. I mean, I don't have to
1:55:19tell you, but um every single time it
1:55:21it's kind of like a reset in my life
1:55:24speaking to you for so many reasons
1:55:25because it helps me brings me back from
1:55:28whatever [ __ ] has consumed me since
1:55:30we last spoke.
1:55:31Yeah. I I
1:55:32And uh it's really it's almost like a
1:55:34baptism. That's the way I would describe
1:55:37it. But I know it is for my listeners,
1:55:38too, cuz they come up to me in the
1:55:39streets. I was I was saying to you
1:55:40before we started recording, they come
1:55:42up to you all over the world. I remember
1:55:43a lady in New York a couple of weeks ago
1:55:45came over to me midworkout and told me
1:55:47um what she was like I'm listening to
1:55:49Dr. K right now and showed me her phone
1:55:50and was like can you get her back on the
1:55:52podcast? Um, and it's it's it's
1:55:55incredible and I actually aspire to be
1:55:57like you in so many ways because I think
1:55:58there's a spiritual component to me that
1:56:00I'm yet to explore. And I think spending
1:56:01time with you as someone I trust so much
1:56:04in so many areas really is a handheld
1:56:09into a new realm which I'm a little bit
1:56:11sort of hesitant to investigate.
1:56:14Do I get to respond?
1:56:15No, I'm joking. Of course, you do.
1:56:17No, I mean sometimes we get into this
1:56:18last word game where it's like meeting
1:56:20of the mutual appreciation club. So
1:56:22Stephen, I what I love about you and I I
1:56:24really do love coming here. They say,
1:56:27"Oh, you should have me back on the
1:56:28podcast." What we create here is a diad.
1:56:33There is a component that you bring. I
1:56:35could not do this without you, right?
1:56:38Right. So, like there's something that
1:56:39you and I meet and then we make
1:56:41something that is unique and I think
1:56:44you're really good at making it with a
1:56:45lot of people and you and I are going to
1:56:47make our own kind of baby, you know,
1:56:50and so it's it's honestly it's a blast.
1:56:53Thank you.
1:56:55[Music]
1:57:15[Music]

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