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The Orgasm Expert: THIS Is How Often You Should Be Having Sex & Stop Inviting Pets Into The Bedroom! — Transcript

by The Diary Of A CEO · 18,440 words · 2,567 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00everyone wants more sex better sex and
0:02there is huge amount that we can do that
0:04can guarantee great sex for the rest of
0:06your life so that the best place to
0:08start is Dr Karen gurny she is a
0:11clinical psychologist and psychos
0:13sexologist that has been helping
0:14individuals and couples overcome sexual
0:17problems for 20 years she's lead
0:19psychologist in an award-winning NHS sex
0:22clinic this might be surprising to some
0:24people 52% of women and 42% of men are
0:27unhappy with the sex lives that they
0:28have and that's because as a society
0:31we've got sex all wrong for example the
0:33way desire is represented to us is lust
0:37passion spontaneity but it's not the
0:39norm and the problem is a lot of people
0:41are waiting to feel like that and
0:43they're waiting a really long time what
0:45we need to do instead is be aware that
0:47our desire can be triggered using what I
0:49call sexual currency I'll go into that
0:52we also know that penis and vagina sex
0:54is women's least favorite sexual act but
0:56that's how we see how sex should be so
0:59we see less pleasure and less reward for
1:01women but also if you ask most people
1:04how often they should be having sex
1:05everyone says three times a week it's
1:07actually drastically different than that
1:10three times a month and that shows the
1:12way we understand sex is all wrong so I
1:15have questions do you think you should
1:16schedule sex no what you should do
1:19though is fantasies fetishes what if
1:21your partner says I don't like it well I
1:23can talk you through that if you like
1:24parents who are struggling with sex what
1:26should they do we know that people start
1:28having sex again from when their kid is
1:31about six and that's because what if
1:33you're in a relationship right now and
1:34you no longer found them attractive what
1:36do I say I would
1:39say it's absolutely crazy to me that so
1:42many of you have decided to watch our
1:43show um and so many of you have decided
1:45to subscribe to our show we now have
1:47five million subscribers on YouTube
1:49which is a number that I just can't
1:50comprehend and it's a dream that I
1:52absolutely never could have had we
1:54started the dire of a CO just over 3
1:56years ago now and in my wildest
1:58expectations we might have had 100,000
2:00subscribers by now so you can imagine
2:02how shocked I am that so many of you
2:05have chosen to tune into these
2:07conversations every week um and spend
2:09some time with us so thank you and I
2:11made a deal with you I made a deal that
2:13if you subscribe to this show that we
2:15would continue to raise the bar and in
2:182024 we're going to raise the bar like
2:20never before I've been working for the
2:22last nine months on a surprise for all
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2:26and I'm very excited to deliver that for
2:28you the production is going to change
2:30we're going to go even further with our
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2:34Global stories so as always if you
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2:42with the
2:43[Music]
2:49episode Dr Karen gy
2:53hi what you do and why' you do it I
2:57spend my working week trying to change
2:59people's relationships with sex and the
3:02reason I do that is because although we
3:05might think that sex is a kind of
3:07frivolous recreational Pursuit it
3:09actually isn't it's super important for
3:12our psychological well-being for our
3:14relationship well-being we know that
3:16when people have great sex their
3:18relationships last longer we know that
3:21when people have great sex they're even
3:22more productive in work than next day
3:24there are so many reasons why sex is
3:26important but unfortunately as a society
3:29we've kind of got it all wrong about how
3:32sex Works about what we should be doing
3:35and because of that we have hugely High
3:37rates of dissatisfaction with people's
3:40sex lives in the UK but also worldwide
3:43why did Sex take your fancy there's so
3:45much about sex that's fascinating I
3:47think there's loads we don't know um
3:49there's loads we do know but no one
3:50talks about people find it so hard to
3:53talk about sex and it's so
3:56stigmatized that you know when people
3:58come into the room you can really see
4:01the weight of it on their shoulders it's
4:03hard for them to speak about it's
4:05embarrassing for them and to be the
4:07person that makes that feel comfortable
4:10and to be the person that can create
4:11change in a part of their life that
4:14matters so much but is perhaps something
4:16they've never told their closest friend
4:18about is hugely rewarding you also get
4:21to work with people across all ages so
4:24you know from their teens to their '90s
4:25you get to work with couples individuals
4:29um you get everything with Sex Therapy I
4:31love it since you started your work what
4:34was almost what 20 years ago did you 20
4:36what have you seen in terms
4:38of changes in the problem set M that
4:43you're dealing with now I what are the
4:46new problems that you're you're
4:47confronted with in your clinical
4:48practice when couples or people come to
4:50you yeah that's a good one because lots
4:53of things have stayed the same right so
4:55we we we know that for example problems
4:57with desire Remain the most common
4:59reason why people end up in my clinical
5:01room um but lots of things have also
5:03shifted data actually shows those shifts
5:06over the last few decades so we have
5:08long-term um data into the lives of um
5:12people in the UK in terms of their sex
5:14lives and we know that we're having less
5:15sex this decade than we were the decade
5:18before and the decade before that so the
5:21amount of sex we're having for example
5:22is going down from my clinical hunches
5:25but also from what's been written about
5:26in the research we have a good idea that
5:29that's our pace of life our work life
5:32balance our distractability our use of
5:35devices um it's become evident in the
5:38last kind of two decades that when it
5:41comes to sex attention is a really key
5:43part of it it's really key so being able
5:46to pay attention to what's happening in
5:48your body or being able to pay attention
5:50to what's happening in your mind is
5:53crucial but as a society I think we're
5:55getting less and less able to pay
5:58attention we're getting getting more and
6:00more in pursuit of distraction and that
6:03shows itself all the time in Sex Therapy
6:05you know couples who come to see me
6:08because they feel that they're never
6:09having sex but yet when you look at
6:11their week they actually have very
6:13little time together and the time
6:15together they do have they're both busy
6:17scrolling they're watching Netflix and
6:19scrolling they're perhaps doing three
6:21things at once they're checking their
6:23work emails that's taking them to a
6:25whole new cognitive place of stress and
6:27so it's no wonder that people don't have
6:30space for their desire to emerge and
6:32that's definitely a newer phenomenon it
6:34kind of made me think of some of the
6:36things I was reading about in your books
6:38where you you say that couples and
6:40individuals who do mindfulness practices
6:43um are those that typically have the
6:45most desire the I think the quote is
6:47from your newest book which is the book
6:49is called how not to let having kids
6:52ruin your sex life yeah it's a bit of a
6:53mouthful it's a it's a great great title
6:57it says research tells us that women who
6:58find easier to have orgasms are
7:00typically more mindful in everyday life
7:03and find it easier to be in the moment
7:05during sex which is chapter three that's
7:07right so there's an enormous amount of
7:09data about attention and sex and
7:12obviously one of the ways in which we
7:13can sharpen our attention is mindfulness
7:16we know that mindfulness Works across a
7:18range of challenges that we face whether
7:20it's pain management whether it's sleep
7:22whether it's about apti regulation all
7:24kinds of things but when it comes to sex
7:26it's super powerful so when you're
7:29distracted during sex um and we know
7:32that over 90% of people have nonsexual
7:35thoughts during sex okay so everyone
7:36gets distracted we know that from the
7:38research but what happens when we start
7:41to get distracted most of the time or
7:44when those distractions are what we call
7:46cognitively Salient which means they're
7:48worrying or they're particularly
7:49stressful like oh I'm not going to calm
7:52or what if I don't stay hard or is she
7:53enjoying this those types of
7:55distractions what happens is our
7:58distraction is basically basically
7:59turning down our arousal like turning
8:02down the volume on the TV so it becomes
8:05harder for our bodies to respond so to
8:07stay aroused for example it becomes
8:10harder for us to feel anything so our
8:12pleasure is turned down it becomes
8:14harder for us to come and ultimately
8:17over time it gets in the way of our
8:19desire on the contrary if we work on
8:22that distraction either by trying to
8:25remove them or trying to tackle the
8:27worries that their root cause or trying
8:30to promote our ability to pay attention
8:33where we want it to be so that's sexual
8:35thoughts sexual Sensations pleasure then
8:39it's like turning up the volume and
8:41we've seen plenty of research that
8:43demonstrate the enormously powerful
8:45impact of mindfulness on sexual response
8:49I can think of times in my life where
8:52because I was stressed or worried when I
8:54got in bed I was worrying about
8:56something or stressing about something
8:57at work yeah my partner tried to have
8:59sex with me and I had zero chance of
9:01getting aroused I could not get an
9:03erection and it's I remember those
9:05moments and thinking oh God she's going
9:06to think that it's about her but really
9:08it's because of this thing I have on my
9:09to-do list that's exactly right i' I'd
9:12got in bed doing my to-do list so I I
9:14like I was holding my to-do list and I
9:16was doing it on my phone and I put the
9:18phone down and then I lay back and I'm
9:21still thinking about my to-do list and
9:23then she tries to initiate and there's
9:25zero chance that's it and that's also
9:27exactly what we were talking about late
9:29earlier on right which is that our
9:32society has changed the way we work has
9:34changed so perhaps three decades ago you
9:37wouldn't have been checking your emails
9:39just before bed which means that
9:41wouldn't have started that Cascade of
9:43thoughts about work which would then
9:45perhaps Peak your cortisol your stress
9:47levels and then cut off your ability to
9:50get turned on so that is one of the
9:52major things that has shifted for all of
9:54us and I think you know one of the myths
9:57that we you know would benefit from
9:59quashing about sex is this idea that
10:02particularly men are always up for it
10:05are always ready to have sex it's just
10:07not
10:08true in fact everybody needs their kind
10:12of conditions for good sex as I call it
10:14to be right they need to be in the right
10:16kind of headp space they need to be not
10:18distracted um they need to know that the
10:21environment is an environment that works
10:23for them it's quite important so yeah
10:27your experience is mirrors what a lot of
10:30people are probably sat at home thinking
10:32about just now do you think there's a
10:34bit of a a paradox with sex in the sense
10:36that the more you think about it mhm and
10:40worry about it the harder it becomes yes
10:43absolutely so what do you do just not
10:45think about it and worry about like so
10:48it's quite interesting because there's
10:50also something else that happens when we
10:51get turned on which is that we get this
10:53attentional focused narrowing so one of
10:57the features of physiological arousal so
10:59so when blood flows around the body
11:00particularly to the genitals is that we
11:02know it kind of sharpens our attention
11:05it makes us basically want to block out
11:07the rest of the world and I'm sure we've
11:09all had experiences when we've been
11:11completely in the moment during sex when
11:14we've not thought about a single other
11:16thing that might be happening around us
11:19so that attentional narrowing is great
11:22unless your attention has been hijacked
11:24by a worry because then you get
11:27attentional narrowing on the worry MH
11:30and what happens when we worry about
11:31something is that it interferes with
11:33sexual response in two main ways the
11:36first is that it takes our attention
11:38away from what's erotic and that turns
11:40down the arousal and pleasure like we
11:43talked about earlier on the TV um the
11:45second thing that happens is that when
11:47we worry about something that activates
11:49our sympathetic nervous system sending
11:51chemical messages around the body saying
11:54don't have sex there's something to
11:55worry about you know it can't tell the
11:57difference between a modern day worry
11:59like this email has come through that's
12:01ruined my day versus you know a
12:04saber-tooth tiger has just walked in you
12:06know our brains are still primitive in
12:08that regard so what happens is that
12:10switches off our sexual response might
12:13mean that you struggle to get turned on
12:15it might mean that you struggle to feel
12:17anything it might mean that your body
12:18doesn't work in the way you want it to
12:20and then of course the next time you go
12:22into it what are you thinking you're
12:24thinking what if it doesn't work you
12:27talk a lot about expectations um and the
12:29role that they play in sex expectation
12:32and pressure make sex worse that's a
12:35quote from your new book chapter 3 I
12:37know maybe that's not a quote but that's
12:38basically the gist of what it said um
12:40but it's also the G gist of my
12:41experience I think it's always felt to
12:43me like the opposite of great sex is
12:47expectation and like rigidity yes and
12:50great sex for me is some sometimes
12:52spontaneous but it's Carefree yes and
12:56it's worry free yeah yeah I mean
12:58pressure is a total passion killer but
13:01pressure it's like that's again the kind
13:03of compounding Paradox because the more
13:05there's a problem with our sex the more
13:07it becomes a focal point in our
13:08relationship the more pressure the more
13:10expectation every night you go to bed
13:12you're thinking you know I've had
13:13moments in past lives and past
13:15relationships where because the sex
13:17wasn't great I would feel nervous going
13:19to bed because it was going to be one of
13:21those moments where we kind of both are
13:22sat there thinking about it but we're
13:24not saying anything to each other and
13:25then if I fall asleep I'm going to
13:27disappoint them but if I try it's going
13:29to go badly so what the hell do I do yes
13:33pressure um is not good for our sex
13:35lives and one of the challenges with
13:36pressure is that when you think about
13:39initiation it's often very much bound up
13:41in pressure and perhaps we'll talk about
13:42initiation in a second but actually the
13:45foundation of those problems with
13:47expectation and pressure is not being
13:49able to talk about it okay because if
13:51you think about it what we really want
13:53to say is I'm feeling quite stressed
13:56about the sex situation and the fact
13:58that we don't talk about it means that
14:00those things are hanging between us and
14:03we know with sex that one of the
14:05fascinating things about it is like
14:07other ways in which we learn we learn
14:10about sex by what we witness in the
14:14media and what we pick up from social
14:17learning something psychologists call
14:19social learning theory when it comes to
14:21sex we don't witness how anyone else is
14:24doing it really we only see what happens
14:27on TV and what happens in porn and maybe
14:30hear from our friends but we don't
14:32really know if they're telling the truth
14:33or
14:33not so what that means is we've all my
14:36friends all lie about it yeah everyone
14:38does they're all stallion in that now
14:39I'm joking they're all very honest
14:40there's actually a fascinating sex
14:42research fact which is one of my
14:43favorite facts which is that men uh when
14:46they say the number of sexual partners
14:47that they've had are more likely to
14:49round it up to a zero or a five a number
14:52ending in 05 I think that's a great sex
14:54fact um so what that means then is is
14:58that we're all living our sex lives
15:00based on something we call sexual script
15:02Theory this is a concept that
15:04organically came out of the work of some
15:06sex researchers in the 70s called gagnan
15:08and Simon and they discovered that
15:10actually in the absence of talking about
15:12sex we all have quite set ideas about
15:16what our sex lives should look like and
15:18we've picked this up from uh from the
15:21media from how people talk about sex in
15:24popular culture and and how we've Ed
15:26language what this means is that we have
15:29a set of ideas and this includes things
15:32like penis and vagina is the main cause
15:35of sex and everything else isn't really
15:37sex and language backs that up doesn't
15:39it with the use of the word foreplay
15:42kind of relegating any other type of sex
15:44to less than and the use of the word
15:46virginity which we only really use to
15:48refer to penis and vagina sex so all of
15:51these things tell us well that's what
15:54real sex is and then you hear people
15:56talking about that and backing that up
15:59with things like well we did everything
16:01but which is like we didn't have sex you
16:03did have sex because you were sexual
16:05together so what happens with these
16:07sexual scripts is that they benefit us
16:10to some degree because they reduce our
16:11anxiety that's what sexual scripts are
16:14there for to give us some idea of what's
16:17expected but what they do to us in the
16:19absence of communication is they give us
16:22an idea about what we should be doing or
16:25what someone else wants to do without us
16:28having to talk about it which often
16:30means that problems arise for examp one
16:33of the examples you give in your book is
16:34about orgasms yes and pornography giving
16:37us a sexual script that men are
16:39basically meant in a heterosexual
16:41relationship men are meant to orgasm and
16:44that there was some crazy stat from some
16:46PornHub research yes yeah that's really
16:49interesting research there was some
16:50research that talked about depictions of
16:52female pleasure and pleasure inducing
16:56acts for women from the hund most
16:58popular videos on PornHub and they found
17:01that um women's pleasure was shown in
17:03about 18% of those top hund videos and
17:08men's pleasure or act that produce
17:10pleasure for men mainly around penis and
17:12vagina sex because that's men's most
17:14favorite sexual act it's women's least
17:17favorite sexual act that was depicted in
17:20about 78% of cases so it's quite
17:24interesting then when you think about
17:25the fact that we're learning from what
17:28we see because what does that then tell
17:31us about what sex should look like about
17:34when sex ends about whose pleasure is
17:38prioritized and it's one of the reasons
17:40that we have an orgasm Gap when men and
17:42women have sex together because that's
17:44how we learn about sex on that I just
17:47want to pick up on two things you said
17:48there that were really interesting to me
17:50the first one was about us not talking
17:53why we don't talk um it's very difficult
17:56to talk about sex with your partner very
17:58very difficult I've been there very
18:00difficult because the plethora of
18:03reasons why you might not be functioning
18:06well or enjoying it can often sound like
18:08you're blaming them communication is so
18:12important we know that being able to
18:14talk about sex is one of the most highly
18:17correlated factors with long-term sexual
18:20satisfaction and relationship
18:22satisfaction and maintaining desire over
18:24time it's more important than the amount
18:27you have set
18:28liking the same thing sexually it's so
18:31important but it's so hard to do and we
18:35know why it's hard right it's because
18:36we're not socialized to talk about it
18:38we're not often given the words that
18:40feel comfortable we are out of practice
18:43getting those words out of our mouth so
18:45they feel kind of clumsy and
18:47awkward there's a lot of worry and risk
18:50involved what if I say this and they
18:52don't like it and because of that it's
18:54easier to avoid but the most fascinating
18:57thing about about sex I think is that
18:59it's constantly evolving for us so you
19:02and I we're not the same people sexually
19:04than we were when we were 15 16 and we
19:07won't be the same sexual people in
19:09another 10 15 years than we are now so
19:13we need to be able to have the ability
19:15for growth right growth and flex in our
19:19sexual relationships but how do you do
19:21that if you can't talk about it it's a
19:24bit like going to the hairdressers same
19:25hairdresses for the rest of your life
19:27and every you sit down not saying
19:30anything and just hoping that they'll
19:31give you the haircut that you want you
19:33wouldn't do it right and they
19:35continually give you the bad you one and
19:37you just keep coming back and you say
19:38thanks and you tip them and you go so we
19:41need to get better at talking about it
19:44and it's not easy it's easy for me I
19:46talk about it all day every day but I
19:48know that that's not the norm and part
19:50of the work that I do is to try and help
19:52people try and give people the scaffold
19:54to talk about it and I can talk you
19:56through that if you like please so it
19:59might be that the best place to start is
20:01to find out how people find talking
20:03about challenging topics anyway with
20:05their partner so if you can't talk about
20:08other things outside of sex without it
20:10going into an argument then it might be
20:12worth just looking at communication full
20:14stop forget sex for the moment just talk
20:16about that are you creating some like
20:18Rules of Engagement for how we
20:20communicate you listen I express myself
20:21absolutely and I always recommend the
20:23Gans um I don't know if you know their
20:25work I do yeah um I recommend them
20:27because they have some great resources
20:28around General communication it's
20:30important to have a good basis if you're
20:32going to talk about sex but if people
20:34can talk about other things and they
20:36find it relatively easy to hear each
20:38other and to share their kind of hopes
20:40and fears then it might be useful to
20:43start to create a culture where talking
20:45about sex becomes the norm this is
20:47always the place you want to end up
20:49right we all want to end up with a
20:51relationship culture that supports easy
20:54communication about sex that's the
20:56guaranteed route to sexual satisfaction
20:58and to do that we have to make it
21:00something that we do frequently without
21:03any pressure without any expectation
21:06that something big has to change so an
21:09early way to start that might be for
21:11example to bring in some novelty in your
21:14Communications about sex so people might
21:16be listening to this podcast and they
21:18might say oh how was your day today
21:21great oh I heard this thing on Diary of
21:23a CEO podcast and it was about
21:26depictions of pleasure in porn and I
21:28thought it was really interesting and it
21:30occurred to me we don't talk about porn
21:33much you know is that something you'd be
21:35open to talk about whether you watch it
21:37whether you like it what you like that
21:39might feel too much for some people and
21:41it might be I heard a podcast about sex
21:43and it talked about the importance of
21:44talking and I thought we don't do that
21:46much so there's ways of bringing it in
21:49which are saying look this I think would
21:51be good for us the key point is stating
21:54the impact that you think it will have
21:56so I would like like to talk more about
21:58this because I heard it means you can
22:00guarantee great sex for the rest of your
22:02life so I think that would be good for
22:04us you know I'm committed to this
22:05relationship I want our sex to stay
22:07great this might be awkward for us but
22:09can we do it so the starting point if
22:12you're nervous is always to talk about
22:14things outside of your sexual
22:15relationship things you've heard on
22:17podcasts films you saw with good sex
22:19scenes in them bring things in rather
22:22than talking about the two of you after
22:25that if you get good at that it might be
22:27worthwhile talking about your own sex
22:29when it goes well so a good time to do
22:32this is after sex that's gone well or at
22:35another time when you're feeling really
22:36emotionally connected maybe you're out
22:38for dinner maybe you're having a weekend
22:40away and talk about what you really
22:43liked and why okay so don't talk about
22:46it when it's bad no no not at this stage
22:49not at this stage if you feel confident
22:51with that and you get into a habit of
22:53talking about sex talking about what's
22:55gone well talking about sex as if if
22:58it's any other topic of conversation
23:00like business or exercise or Diet then
23:03you might want to start to talk about
23:05things you'd like to be different and in
23:08an idal world I try and encourage
23:11couples to have a kind of regular
23:12practice of this so if you think about
23:15your goals for your exercise your work
23:18your diet often you'll set yourself
23:20goals right and you might tell your
23:22partner about them you know in six
23:23months from now I want to do this or
23:25this year I'm working on this it's quite
23:28good to get into the habit of saying
23:29where do we want our sex life to go how
23:31would we like things to be what do we
23:33want to continue what do we want more of
23:36and what do we want less of and that's a
23:39really positive conversation you don't
23:41need to talk about what you don't like
23:43you're talking about what you want more
23:45of instead what if the issue in your
23:49sexual relationship is one of Attraction
23:51and I I've asked a few guests this
23:53because I think it's one of the the
23:54hardest challenges to overcome and I
23:58don't know in a clinical setting what
24:00you would say if you're sat there with
24:02an individual and they're telling you
24:04that the reason they aren't having sex
24:06with Dave right now is because they're
24:08no longer attracted to them what what is
24:10their path forward there do they dump
24:11Dave or do they go tell Dave it depends
24:15how important sex is to them if it's
24:17important say it's important and for
24:20them a relationship they're in a
24:21monogamous relationship so they can't
24:23get sex elsewhere or they've agreed to
24:25not get sex elsewhere and is important
24:29then it's quite important that
24:31attraction is part of it um we know that
24:35the sex science tells us that when
24:37attraction is high at the beginning it's
24:40really easy to maintain desire over time
24:43when attraction is low it can be really
24:46challenging It's Not Unusual for me to
24:48see couples who've been together decades
24:50with very low levels of Attraction but
24:52the work they need to do to maintain a
24:54sex life that works for them both is
24:56tough so so you need to kind of have
24:58your eyes open I guess about what you're
25:00signing up for if sex is important to
25:02you then attraction is fairly important
25:05I think it's also maybe useful to say
25:07that attraction can work some Wayne and
25:10it might be worth examining what's going
25:13on there and whether you know there is a
25:15certain situation that you find
25:17yourselves in as a couple or whether
25:19they're at the moment going through some
25:21stuff that maybe makes it harder for you
25:23to see them in that light yeah sometimes
25:25attraction can come back when those
25:28relationship contexts are worked on but
25:30if it's never been there from the outset
25:32if it's a very strong sense of a lack of
25:34Attraction if someone's eyes have
25:36already moved to someone else then it
25:38may be useful to address it and
25:41attraction's not just a physical thing
25:42people think of Attraction as being
25:44physical it's a psychological thing as
25:45well absolutely absolutely and you know
25:48attraction can vary in relationships
25:51depending on what's happening in the
25:52relationship Dynamic so a common thing
25:55that I've written about in the new book
25:57it's to book for parents really is
25:59around the dynamic of what it feels like
26:02to have a partner who feels like a
26:04another child so the idea that you might
26:08be having to care for them as well you
26:09know make their lunches kind of buy
26:12their clothes um tidy up after them that
26:16we know from sex research that's a super
26:18unsexy Dynamic and that is something
26:21which often falls on women in straight
26:23relationships once kids arrive and that
26:26kind of dynamic can shift attraction and
26:29may well shift back if that Dynamic is
26:31addressed so your new book is called how
26:33not to let having kids ruin your sex
26:35life that's right why did you title it
26:37that I just thought let's say what it is
26:40and that's exactly what it is it's a
26:42guide to not let having kids ruin your
26:44sex life does that tend to happen kids
26:47so oh yeah so it's so common sexual
26:49dissatisfaction is that it's lowest for
26:52couples in the period after having kids
26:55so if you've got an under five-year-old
26:56at home it's pretty likely that your sex
26:59life is suffering for it it doesn't have
27:02to but many of the kind of reasons why
27:06our sex life struggles when kids come
27:08along are um amplifications of dynamics
27:13that we struggle with outside of kids so
27:15for example quite often but of course
27:17not always people are in a long-term
27:19relationship quite often they're living
27:21together being in a long-term
27:22relationship and living together are two
27:24factors which reduce your desire over
27:26time so you've already you're already
27:28starting from that point you may have
27:30also been trying to conceive you might
27:32have had problems with fertility with
27:34miscarriage sex might have got boring
27:36but you might have had to do it anyway
27:38you've then got pregnancy which for some
27:40people is a golden time of sexual
27:41exploration but for some people means
27:43for one reason or another they don't
27:45have much sex and then you're expecting
27:47to get back to your sexual life when
27:49you've getting no sleep when you're
27:50stressed and when you've got another
27:52kind of 37 40 hours of work a week to do
27:56which is the parenting week so there's
27:57so many reasons why it's challenging and
28:00that's why I wrote the book is there a a
28:01certain demographic of person that
28:04you're most likely to see in your
28:06clinical practice and is it is it
28:08parents I see people of all ages I see I
28:12probably see people mostly in long-term
28:13relationships I think people know that
28:15desire is my specialist subject so
28:17people tend to seek me out particularly
28:19around desire um I see a lot of parents
28:23I also see a lot of non-parents but you
28:25know Parenthood brings additional child
28:27Alles for people to navigate even if you
28:29think about the time available to have
28:31sex it's much more limited it can be
28:34really difficult to initiate when you
28:36initiate it the other person might
28:38experience it as a really clumsy
28:39initiation when they've got a lot on
28:41their plate these are all just as I said
28:43amplifications of what you might get in
28:45long-term relationships generally but it
28:47tends to be the more challenging wedge
28:50of the
28:51pie desire this idea of Desire is really
28:54fascinating to me I actually speak to
28:56one of my best friends about
28:58um what we call Desire management and it
29:00was a theory that we developed based on
29:03just looking at both of our lives and
29:04how we' manag to maintain sexual desire
29:07in our respective relationships he has
29:09an approach to dating which we all laugh
29:12at him for where he meets someone and he
29:15moves them in really really quickly like
29:16moves them in it's a very like
29:18smothering approach to like finding Love
29:21and Desire very quickly goes out the
29:23window whereas I'm probably the opposite
29:25of that where in my current relationship
29:27with it was a longdistance relationship
29:28for 2 years she lived on the other side
29:29of the world eventually in maybe year
29:31three or something we like moved in
29:32together but we're still we still both
29:34fly all over the world so we don't see
29:36each other much which I think is proven
29:38to be quite Central to our desire
29:40management we don't see each other much
29:42and that's that's the theory of Desire
29:44management keep some distance keep keep
29:46the right amount of distance there's
29:47probably absolutely there's probably two
29:49too far away and too in frequently
29:51seeing them and then there's seeing them
29:53too much absolutely it's a great Theory
29:56so desire is possibly one of the most
29:59fascinating aspects of sex that is
30:01grossly misunderstood by our kind of
30:04collective psyche and it's quite
30:07interesting because if you ask most
30:09people um on the street how desire works
30:13or what desire is they'll tell you that
30:15we have such a thing as a sex drive or
30:18libido which kind of comes into our mind
30:21and tells us it would be a good idea to
30:22have sex that is an idea that came from
30:25sex science in the 50s and 60s when we
30:29believed that desire was the first part
30:31of the sexual response cycle so you you
30:34first had the idea to be sexual and then
30:36you acted on it and that's kind of
30:38seeped down into our Collective psyche
30:41and that's how we all operate our sex
30:42lives we generally wait to feel like it
30:45and then we act on it but actually we
30:48now know that desire doesn't work like
30:50that and that in the early stages of a
30:53relationship or if we live apart there's
30:55your desire management we manage to
30:58maintain higher levels of that kind of
31:00Desire it's called spontaneous desire
31:02and it happens when a partner is novel
31:04or less familiar to us or perhaps when
31:07our Dynamic with them isn't diluted by
31:10other roles so for your friend that
31:13moves someone in that person then
31:14becomes a
31:15flatmate so that the role of them as a
31:18sexual partner is diluted for other
31:20people it's diluted also by being a
31:23co-parent so our brain starts to see
31:25that person less as a sexual object
31:28this is an inevitable part of being with
31:30someone for a number of years and we can
31:34pretty much guarantee that for most
31:35people spontaneous desire will start to
31:38decline about a year or 18 months into a
31:41relationship obviously it depends how
31:42often you see each other and it sounds
31:44like your desire management fantastic
31:46might keep that going a bit longer for
31:48most people they have this experience
31:51and we know that this happens for
31:53everyone but that women struggle to
31:55maintain this more than men so in the UK
31:58we know that 34% of women and 15% of men
32:02are worried that they don't feel like
32:04sex enough and that's because they've
32:07seen a drop in the spontaneous desire we
32:09talked about sexual scripts earlier and
32:11we talked about how we learn about sex
32:13from what we see the way desire is
32:15represented to us in the media is lust
32:19passion
32:20spontaneity that sexual urge that you
32:23absolutely have to act on and yes that
32:26is how it works for some of us some of
32:28the time perhaps after we've not seen
32:31each other for a long time perhaps at
32:32the start of a relationship and for some
32:34people you know lifelong with the same
32:37person but it's not the norm actually
32:39what the norm is is that that type of
32:41Desire tends to diminish and it's other
32:44motivations other than horniness that
32:46we're seeking out through sex so we call
32:49these nonsexual motivations and there
32:51may be things like wanting to feel close
32:54stress relief wanting to feel desire
32:57ired um wanting to demonstrate love or
33:00affection wanting to have fun um out of
33:03a sense of obligation because it's been
33:05a while these are all nonsexual
33:07motivations which lead us to the
33:10behavior of
33:11sex the problem is a lot of people are
33:14waiting to feel like it before they act
33:16on it and for those people they're
33:18waiting a really long time we know that
33:22for women particularly uh it should be
33:24considered normal to never feel like sex
33:28out of the blue with your long-term
33:30partner never how do we know that from
33:33sex research so when we ask women how
33:35often do you feel like sex with your
33:38partner they say either never or maybe
33:41once or twice a month this is
33:43spontaneous
33:45desire but we're asking the question
33:49about only one type of Desire responsive
33:52desire is desire that emerges out of us
33:55beginning sexual activity or or having
33:57what we call sexual stimuli in front of
33:59us a passionate kiss a flirtation being
34:02naked together um a text that suggests
34:06something that we might do later
34:08on the later versions of sex research
34:12tell us that actually desire emerges out
34:15of being sexual okay so it comes from
34:18doing something to trigger it but if
34:21your understanding of Desire is that you
34:23should wait until you feel like it
34:25there's a large proportion of people in
34:26longterm relationships that are just
34:28never feeling like it and never doing
34:30anything about it what we need to do
34:33instead is be aware that our desire can
34:35be triggered and find ways to trigger it
34:38and have a relationship context that
34:40supports triggering it in that context
34:42we know that people's desire works
34:44perfectly well that means they can have
34:46desire feature as much as they want in
34:49their relationship just by knowing how
34:51desire works so our brains code things
34:55as sexual and this could be physical
34:58touch it could be kiss it could be being
35:00naked together it could be the sight of
35:02someone's naked body it could be a
35:03suggestive text it's different for
35:05everybody but essentially sexual content
35:08triggers our arousal which triggers our
35:11desire it's the reason why the most
35:13common thing people say to me in Sex
35:15Therapy is I didn't really feel like it
35:17but we had sex and it was great and
35:19afterwards I said why don't we do that
35:21more that's responsive desire it emerges
35:24out of sexual activity the problem of
35:27long-term relationships is that we see a
35:29decline in what I call sexual currency
35:32so how we relate to each other as sexual
35:35beings we start to see sex a bit like an
35:38onoff switch so we're either having sex
35:41or the rest of the time we're not being
35:43sexual together you know we're not
35:44passionately kissing unless it's part of
35:46sex we're not sending each other those
35:48flirty messages we us to do at the
35:50beginning we're not spending time
35:52lounging around in bed on a Sunday
35:54morning being naked together in a way
35:56that might kickstart
35:57desire so these low levels of sexual
36:00currency and these high levels of
36:03familiarity seeing the same person every
36:05day means our brains just don't code
36:08them as sexual stimuli in the same way
36:11and then we go cheat or we go look for
36:12porn or something else yeah absolutely
36:15because we want to have that kind of
36:17frison of excitement can I just clarify
36:20that sexual currency this definition
36:22basically means if I think this of this
36:24in a financial context
36:27if you see someone as being highly
36:29sexually desirable they have a high
36:30sexual currency in your mind not quite
36:33okay so think currency more like charge
36:36oh okay like a thatp yeah so sexual
36:39currency my definition of it would be
36:41it's everything that you do that marks
36:43you out as a sexual couple apart from
36:45having sex so this is the stuff that you
36:48wouldn't do with your friends you
36:50wouldn't do with your family you
36:52wouldn't do with your kids so you're
36:53physically affectionate with all those
36:54people right M but the seual side of it
36:58the passionate kissing the bum grabs the
37:00flirtation the saying you look super hot
37:02in that top these things are sexual
37:05currency so if we think about our sex
37:07lives not as this onoff switch of the
37:11you know 18 minutes that's the average
37:13for men and women when they have sex
37:14together it's 18 minutes of having sex
37:17however often you're doing it if you
37:19think of your sexual relationship as
37:20something which is always happening
37:23something which you're always nurturing
37:25you can imagine the power that that can
37:27have on both triggering desire but also
37:30Meeting those sexual needs I'll give you
37:32an example that I wrote about in the new
37:34book actually um because parents
37:36obviously have limited time available to
37:38have sex and raising sexual currency is
37:41one of the ways you can increase sexual
37:43satisfaction even when you can't have
37:45any more sex so if you think about an
37:47example of um a straight couple whereby
37:51he is feeling that her lack of interest
37:53in sex means that she doesn't desire him
37:55as much as she used to and he's worried
37:58about that because for him that means
38:00the relationship is in crisis uh she
38:02might look elsewhere and also he doesn't
38:05feel so good about himself he wants to
38:06feel desired we all do right he gave me
38:09an example of a time when they perhaps
38:12attended a function and they were in the
38:14lift and as they went up in the lift to
38:16get to this function she pushed him
38:18against the lift and kissed him really
38:21passionately for the 10 seconds they
38:23were in the lift and then they got out
38:25the lift and They carried on with the
38:26function
38:27this is sexual currency and that made
38:29him feel more desired more connected to
38:32her sexually than a week before the sex
38:35they had that felt like going through
38:36the motions so you've got something
38:39which meets your sexual needs which
38:41makes you feel desired attractive close
38:43like a sexual couple like you've got
38:45some sexual secret between you that no
38:47one else can see sexual currency does
38:49all of that but it also acts as
38:51scaffolding to help us move easily into
38:54sex because we talked about expect
38:56expectation and pressure earlier and if
38:59you have high levels of sexual currency
39:01there's low pressure for it to go
39:02anywhere because it is your sexual
39:05relationship for its own right it's not
39:07someone initiating sex the way to
39:10overcome this potential psychological
39:12barrier is to create a culture of low
39:14pressure between you you say that sex
39:16should be trivial and often not rare and
39:19crucial absolutely yeah soal and often I
39:22always know that my work with couples is
39:24done when they find it really easy to
39:26invite each other into sex and really
39:28easy to turn each other down because
39:31what happens when uh we have low levels
39:33of sexual currency and when sex has
39:35become an issue is that everything's
39:36riding on initiation so the person
39:39initiating Waits they they ignore all
39:42the other times they want to initiate it
39:44because it's quite stressful and they
39:45wait until the time it really matters
39:48maybe it's an anniversary or a weekend
39:50away or something where it feels like
39:51you should have sex and they initiate it
39:53and there's so much riding on it that
39:55the other person knows there's so much
39:57writing on it they feel pressure
39:58pressure is a desire killer it doesn't
40:00happen and then the initiation will be
40:03even rarer moving forward more pressure
40:06for more pressure exactly what we want
40:09instead is a kind of trivial and often
40:12way of sexually relating high levels of
40:14sexual currency high levels of
40:16initiation so you find it easy to say to
40:18your partner by the way at work today I
40:21was thinking about doing this to you
40:23when when we get home and your partner
40:25can say that sounds really hot if only I
40:27didn't have this meeting tomorrow on my
40:29mind let's come back to that on the
40:31weekend so you can let somebody know
40:34that sex is on your mind you can invite
40:35someone into something which might be a
40:38passionate kiss might be let's go to bed
40:40early and talk about our day knowing
40:42that that is sexual stimuli which might
40:44trigger arousal and desire but also it
40:47acts as a way of
40:50triggering that um initiation it makes
40:53it easy to initiate if you're doing it
40:55often and if there's low pressure do you
40:57think you should schedule sex no never
40:59ever schedule sex cuz you said let's
41:01come back to on the weekend I was
41:02thinking that's just ruin the weekend
41:03I'd like to I like it to be spicy and
41:05spontaneous so um it's one of our sexual
41:08scripts that sex spontaneous sex is
41:10better and I don't necessarily agree
41:12with that but I do agree with the idea
41:15that scheduling sex just creates
41:17pressure for everyone how can you in
41:19advance agree to something that you
41:22don't know if you're going to feel like
41:23when you get there and all that does is
41:24create pressure what you should do
41:26though in today's day and age is
41:29schedule physical intimacy schedule some
41:32type of sexual currency because we're so
41:35busy if you don't do that when is it
41:37going to happen the issue I have though
41:39is if I schedule physical intimacy MH
41:43then okay and I keep doing that
41:47eventually the expectation comes in that
41:48we have sex after the physical intimacy
41:50it's also the same thing with like date
41:52night if you're parents and you get one
41:53date night a week we all know when we
41:56need to get this we need to make this
41:57thing happen so it becomes scheduling
42:00sex because you're scheduling date night
42:01once a week you know what I mean yeah so
42:04you've got two options haven't you one
42:06is that you wait until it's really high
42:08pressure and you don't initiate it very
42:10often you wait for this date night I
42:12don't know once a week once a month and
42:14everyone knows there's all kinds of
42:15stuff riding on it and that makes it
42:18possibly the worst set of circumstances
42:20to for everyone to feel like sex lots of
42:22high pressure sex that might feel
42:23formulaic everyone's distracted means
42:26they can't get into it it's not great
42:28sex the other option is that you keep
42:31high levels of sexual currency and you
42:34try your best to schedule brief moments
42:36of physical intimacy which could act as
42:38scaffolding to take it further you're
42:40right in that you may start to build up
42:43an expectation that oh every time we say
42:46we'll have a bath together we end up
42:47having sex that might happen but when
42:50you invite someone into the bath you are
42:53inviting them into the bath right so
42:54you're not inviting them saying let's
42:56have a bath and have sex afterwards
42:58you're saying do you fancy having a bath
43:00together the fact that you both know
43:03where the bath might lead is fine
43:05because it allows you to get into that
43:07head space Oh okay I hadn't thought
43:09about sex tonight but the bath might
43:11lead to sex so let me get into a sexual
43:14head space for a minute so that's quite
43:17useful the problem comes when you say to
43:20them afterwards you said you wanted a
43:22bath and we've not had sex well that
43:24wasn't what you invited them into you
43:25invited them into the B so you have to
43:27be okay if it doesn't lead to that but
43:29if you initiate these types of things
43:32more if you think about it scattergun
43:34approach more of them are likely to go
43:36where you want them to go versus that
43:39one time of high pressure if you were to
43:41give me a couple of pieces of simple
43:43advice on how to keep desire high in my
43:46relationship what would you say I would
43:49say kiss more kiss for kissing's sake
43:52okay kiss kissing often falls off the
43:55agenda in longterm
43:56relationships the number of times I see
43:58that um with couples I'm working with
44:00who've been together decades they only
44:03kiss as part of sex or as initiation of
44:05sex so kissing is a great way of
44:07triggering Desire it's also a great way
44:09of getting our sexual needs met so that
44:11would be one the second would be you
44:14have to make time to schedule physical
44:16intimacy of some type because remember
44:19that desire is triggered by that kind of
44:21sexual stimul whether it's um getting
44:24naked on the couch and watching film
44:26together that you know it's got good sex
44:27scenes in it whether it's massage
44:29whether it's the bath whether it's um
44:32some kind of date night that involves
44:34use of your bodies without that there
44:36are no triggers to your desire so you're
44:39just kind of waiting to feel it the
44:41third is understand how desire works
44:44it's drastically different than what
44:45you've been sold and you're normal if
44:48you struggle to get in the head space
44:50sometimes what about distance and you
44:52know this idea of like you talked about
44:54how they kind of your partner can lose
44:56their sexual currency if they become a
44:58carer or you know I've heard before if
45:00they become like too much of a mom or a
45:04dad in your mind and they stop becoming
45:06a sort of sexual partner relationship
45:09Dynamics are quite fascinating U as you
45:11say because when we talk about them we
45:14often hear things like well obviously if
45:16you're experiencing great amount of
45:18relationship conflict it's going to
45:19affect your sex life I mean that's of
45:21course right we all know that to be true
45:24but actually it's the subtle dyam
45:25dynamics that are quite important it's
45:29um having distance from each other and
45:32being able to bring in novelty and
45:34newness a bit like you do with kind of
45:37having that that physical distance but
45:39it's also an emotional separation isn't
45:41it because you're having experiences
45:43separately and then coming back together
45:44to talk about them it's also about what
45:47roles you might get typ cast into in
45:50your relationship so something I talk
45:52about often is the idea that when we
45:55have sex with the same person for a long
45:57time we can start to feel as though
46:00there's only one way for us to be
46:01sexually and that's the way they're kind
46:03of expecting us to be so it can feel
46:05quite suffocating and sometimes that's
46:07the reason that people go outside of a
46:09monogamous relationship is because they
46:11want to experience themselves
46:13differently they want to be a different
46:15person sexually and because they can't
46:17talk to their partner about that and
46:19they feel typ cast in that Dynamic you
46:21know you're the dominant one I'm not or
46:24um the sex that we have is really kind
46:25of sensual and caring and I want it to
46:27be passionate and
46:28animalistic it's really difficult you
46:31must come across so many couples in um
46:34your clinical practice that have two
46:36different visions of what sex should
46:38look like yes fantasies fetishes you
46:40know this one wants this person to do
46:42this to me but this person thinks that's
46:44you know horrific MH how does one bridge
46:47the gap and how does one go about even
46:49communicating those things because I
46:50imagine so many people in so many
46:51relationships it's kind of like what you
46:53said earlier having really bad haircuts
46:55having really bad sex and I saying
46:57nothing about it and oh yeah I've been
46:59in relationships before where I've
47:00thought you know what I really want to
47:01do that but I think she'll think that
47:03I'm a little bit you know trust me no
47:05one is talking about it everyone stays
47:07silent and just hopes that the other
47:08person will either get the hint or will
47:11accidentally stumble upon the thing they
47:13really want them to do it is fascinating
47:15really when you think about it because
47:17so much of our satisfaction our life
47:19satisfaction depends on how sex goes but
47:20we just almost leave it to Chance by not
47:23talking about it one of the things we
47:25might do in Sex Therapy is by getting
47:28people separately to write down what
47:30their perfect sex looks like um I have a
47:34um an exercise it's actually free you
47:36can find it on my social media or my
47:37website which is called conditions for
47:39good sex which guides people through the
47:41process of doing that and it looks at
47:43three main areas one is psychological
47:45arousal what turns you on in your head
47:47what kind of dynamic between you and the
47:49person works for you how do you need to
47:51feel about yourself and your Optimum
47:53sexual experience one is physical
47:55stimulation and that could be anything
47:57from where you like to be touched to the
47:59types of sex you like to um the type of
48:02positions you like to be in the third is
48:05being able to be in the moment so you
48:06might right there the kinds of things
48:08that go through your mind to distract
48:09you and I would get people to do that
48:12separately um the way I guide people
48:14through that is by getting them to think
48:16about their three best sexual
48:18experiences and really replay those in
48:20their mind what were the aspects of that
48:23sexual experience which you play over
48:26and over again what was it about how you
48:28felt about yourself about how you could
48:31be with that person what was it about
48:33what you were doing what was it about
48:35the environment and people are able to
48:38then develop their own perspective their
48:40own um list if you like of the things
48:43that really work for
48:45them what if your partner says I don't
48:47like it well that's what we come to next
48:49then we look for the overlap so is there
48:51overlap if there's not then there's a
48:53little bit of work to do right are you
48:55going to stay in a monogamous
48:56relationship and if so how are you going
48:58to make this work are you going to open
49:00it up so you can get your sexual needs
49:01met elsewhere plenty of people do that
49:03often there is enough overlap for people
49:06to say okay I didn't realize that that
49:08was a thing for you I don't I like that
49:11thing but maybe not quite to that degree
49:14can we do this instead so there's a
49:15little bit of negotiation that happens
49:17in the middle but I think perhaps one of
49:19the myths around our sexuality is that
49:22it exists between us and our partner and
49:25actually our sexuality just exists
49:27within us alone and we should be allowed
49:29to express that alone or in our minds in
49:33whatever way that we want and that could
49:35look quite different what we do alone
49:37perhaps with others to what we do with
49:40another person so we don't have to get
49:42all of our sexual needs met by that one
49:45person there may be other ways of doing
49:46it should we remain open-minded to the
49:49um desires and requests of the other I I
49:52remember you know I like experimenting
49:54you know and I think I was once upon a
49:57time with someone who was less Keen to
49:59experiment and I remember think oh this
50:00is boring this is going to be really
50:02boring and then over time I think I was
50:06able to introduce things slowly that
50:09open their eyes to experimentation and
50:11they love they love experimentation we
50:13had the best sex of Our Lives okay
50:15because we introduced things we
50:16experimented more but um I I remember
50:18reflecting in that moment that I could
50:19have easily walked away from the
50:20relationship when this person said oh no
50:22that's weird I don't want to do that
50:24yeah and it may be that if this other
50:26person had done their conditions for
50:27good sex they may have written down
50:29under the psychological arousal part I
50:32really need to know someone or I really
50:33need to trust someone before I can do
50:35things that are outside of the normal
50:37sexual script right sense and
50:40experimentation could be part of that um
50:43I think it also comes down to how you
50:46want the kind of personality of your sex
50:48life together to be so I think for some
50:50of us um experiencing kind of thrill or
50:55joy or pushing boundaries or
50:56experimentation in sex is a key part of
51:00what really tis ticks us along what
51:02really keeps us going for other people
51:04it's just not it's it's that they want
51:06sex to be predictable um intimate fun
51:10but close without anything outside of
51:13the ordinary so I think it can be quite
51:15useful to think about what do we see as
51:17the sexual personality of our
51:19relationship how do we how do we want it
51:22to be what would make us feel most alive
51:24and that's where creat a culture of
51:26talking about sex is helpful because
51:29without that how do you know earlier you
51:31used a phrase you said it's when we were
51:33talking about vaginal um penetration you
51:35said it's women's least favorite act yes
51:38it is yeah so we talked about sexual
51:41scripts um penis and vagina sex being
51:43the main course of sex is very much a
51:47dominant sexual script and there are
51:48many reasons that's dominant and it's
51:51something that we know from sex research
51:52that if you ask people and they have
51:54done many times in sex research to
51:56recount what sex looks like people will
51:59recount a set menu of sex that is you
52:02start with this then you do a bit of
52:03that then you go to the main course of
52:05penis and vagina sex um the kind of
52:08American audience will know that as a
52:09kind of baseball analogy and I think
52:11worldwide we know that analogy too right
52:14that's how we see how sex should be but
52:17what's Most Fascinating about that is
52:19that suits men's Anatomy more than
52:21women's we know that the majority of
52:25women about 80% um don't orgasm from
52:28penetrative sex because obviously it's
52:30all about the clitoris and so that's why
52:32for women their most favorite sexual
52:34acts are things like people using their
52:37hands to stimulate their clitoris or
52:39receiving oral sex not penis and vagina
52:42sex they rate rate that the least
52:44pleasure inducing sexual
52:46act for men it's different it's the
52:49highest pleasure inducing sexual act
52:52right alongside masturbation actually
52:54what's f fascinating is we talk a lot
52:57about desire particularly between men
52:59and women when they have sex together
53:01but we don't always talk about the fact
53:02that to move towards sex we have to be
53:05motivated to feel that there's going to
53:06be a reward and so when we're having sex
53:09that perhaps doesn't suit our anatomy as
53:11much as we'd like it to or when there's
53:13a big orgasm Gap and someone else is
53:16reliably experiencing more pleasure than
53:17we are of course our desire
53:20suffers does it we've used the word
53:22initiate a lot does it matter who
53:24initiates
53:26it doesn't matter but we know that the
53:28person initiating often experiences
53:30higher levels of sexual satisfaction in
53:32the encounter than the person who's
53:34following there are some really
53:36interesting things with initiation and I
53:39actually think that when it comes to sex
53:42with long-term Partners when it comes to
53:44many of the couples that I see people
53:47often walk through the door saying
53:48there's a problem with desire sometimes
53:51there is it's usually in their
53:53understanding of Desire not desire
53:54itself but often it's an initiation
53:57actually because if you think about it
54:00initiation is a
54:02communication you're basically saying
54:05I'd like to have sex now would you and
54:08there are a variety of ways that people
54:10initiate and in my experience they can
54:12be wildly off theark so one scenario is
54:16that the person initiates and it's so
54:19subtle that the other person just
54:20doesn't pick up on it at all and it's
54:23quite difficult to put yourself out
54:25there with initiation right so people
54:26test the waters with this coded subtle
54:30I'll put my hands there and and they'll
54:32know what that means and often that is
54:35completely missed by the other person
54:37and so the opportunity for sex is
54:39lost the other side of the coin is when
54:43people initiate in a really direct way
54:45so um we know that women having sex with
54:48men initiate much more directly and when
54:52men are initiating with women or when
54:54women are initiating with women they
54:56initiate much more indirectly so this
54:59direct initiation from women to men
55:01often looks like should we have sex
55:05then do you fancy a shag that kind of
55:08thing which although it's direct and you
55:10could give it points for being direct
55:12communication people say that all the
55:14time time all the time they say it it's
55:18direct it's getting a point across but
55:20it's inherently
55:22unsexy and it's quite interesting
55:26because the social script of men are
55:28always up for sex means that in women's
55:32Minds often they can just say that and
55:34that will do it for their partner yeah
55:37and actually that's not the case and
55:40what we know from research is that most
55:42men actually say I need a bit more than
55:45that I need to feel intimacy I need to
55:47feel desired I need to feel as though
55:50she's initiating it because she's
55:52enthusiastic about doing it not because
55:54she's doing it for me we also know that
55:57people fall into styles of initiation
55:59and just in the same way that I
56:01mentioned getting typ cast around how
56:02you are sexually with a partner you can
56:04get typ cast in terms of how you
56:06initiate so there might be one way that
56:10you do it always the same always and
56:12maybe it was cute for the first six
56:14months but in month 60 it starts to
56:17become quite irritating it starts to
56:19become not a sexual trigger but oh here
56:21we go again yeah unsexy it's kind of
56:23like yeah predictable yeah pressure so
56:27it can be a really useful thing to have
56:29a conversation with somebody else
56:31somebody you're having sex with around
56:33how you actually like sex to be
56:35initiated and whether that matches with
56:38how each other does it you know what's
56:40interesting when we think about sex and
56:42what we assume it must be like we all
56:45have a bit of an idea in our head maybe
56:46from pornography or something else or
56:48movies that it should just flow yes that
56:51it should just you know and so when our
56:53sex doesn't flow we think something is
56:55broken and wrong with it m we should we
56:57just walk in hi babe how's work oh off
57:00we go we're off to the like every day
57:02and it should happen every every other
57:04night um and if it's not flowing and
57:07happening every other night we think we
57:08need to go and like yeah you know fix
57:11this someone's to blame something's
57:13wrong with me or him or so let's come
57:15back to frequency because that's a big
57:17one but before we get on to
57:19that occupying the space in between
57:22willingness so that's a nice idea that
57:25I've had or you've had but I'm not there
57:26yet and desire when your desire kicks in
57:30is actually quite an uncomfortable space
57:32to occupy and one of the things I like
57:34to do in in my work with people is to
57:36try and help them get comfortable in
57:37that space because as you say we have
57:40this idea that we should be feeling it
57:41before we start that's wrong we know
57:43that now but also that it should be easy
57:46for us just to slip into that sexual
57:48head space to lose that awkwardness to
57:51lose that sense of I don't actually know
57:53if I'm going to feel like it I might do
57:55can we just continue what we're doing
57:57and I'll see occupying that space in
57:59between willingness and desire is really
58:02a key part of initiation because if you
58:04initiate with shall we have sex it
58:07doesn't really give you a chance to see
58:10if you can occupy that space does it you
58:12have either have to say yes or no do you
58:14know think it's harder for men as well
58:15in some regards because like we got to
58:18get you know the Eiffel Tower up in in
58:20in a heteros sexual relationship there's
58:23like it's very easy to see if the man is
58:25aroused whereas it's less obvious I mean
58:28it is there's ways to tell obviously yes
58:30without getting too detailed but it's
58:32it's so clear if the man is aroused
58:34there's no hiding it for all of us our
58:37body's arousal response and the degree
58:40with which we're turned on in our minds
58:42so desire don't actually always match as
58:45much as we'd like them to so I don't
58:47know if you've ever had this experience
58:48or any of your listeners have but it can
58:50be quite common for men to want to be
58:54getting in a sexual head space or
58:56actually be feeling desire but not be
58:59hard and because it's a visual sign
59:03sometimes their Partners whether they're
59:04male or female Partners can take that
59:06really personally MH what does that mean
59:08about me I I'm going to be honest
59:09because that's the whole point of this
59:11podcast was I've had multiple times in
59:13my life where I've not been able to get
59:14an erection and uh it's so awward and
59:20it's the minute they realize that you
59:22you're not going to be able to get an
59:23erection
59:25what do I say you know what do I say
59:27yeah I'm so glad you mentioned it
59:29because it's so common and it's common
59:31because this is called arousal
59:33non-concordance so an idea that our
59:35bodies don't always do what our brains
59:37are thinking so you might think you want
59:39to have sex but your body doesn't always
59:41respond and that happens for people of
59:44all genders it's just more challenging
59:46for people with penises right because
59:47you can see it that's I'm saying yeah so
59:50it brings with it that extra level of
59:51pressure as soon as you've got that
59:53pressure then as we know your attention
59:55goes elsewhere your worry increases that
59:58turns down arousal like turning down the
59:59tv less chance of inter rection so can I
1:00:02ask then what do I do in that moment and
1:00:04what should they do as in like how do
1:00:06they help me in that very embarrassing
1:00:08moment and what do I say yeah so they
1:00:10first need to understand that no
1:00:12erection doesn't mean that you don't
1:00:14want to have sex it might sometimes of
1:00:16course but if you're saying look I'm I'm
1:00:19really Keen for this I'm just not there
1:00:21yet then they need to take that at face
1:00:23value okay that's really important
1:00:24otherwise you end up feeling as though
1:00:26it's a judgment on your attraction or
1:00:28your desire for them which it's not um
1:00:30the second thing
1:00:32is there needs to be less focus on the
1:00:35need for the penis to be hard and that
1:00:37comes from delineating this idea of this
1:00:41set menu of sex which means a hard penis
1:00:44has to be part of it there's plenty of
1:00:45other things that you could do sexually
1:00:48if you're feeling like you want to be
1:00:50sexual which will move your attention
1:00:53back to sexual things things that might
1:00:55really turn you on so for example giving
1:00:57oral sex is often something that a lot
1:00:58of men say really turn them on obviously
1:01:00it's not for everyone vibrator out yeah
1:01:02all kinds of things watching someone
1:01:04else's sexual pleasure can really turn
1:01:06us on for some people it's really hard
1:01:08for them to get used to um enjoying
1:01:11sensation when their penis is soft they
1:01:13they kind of want to avoid it be great
1:01:15if they didn't and they could be
1:01:17comfortable with enjoying that touch
1:01:18even then but it might mean moving
1:01:21moving your attention to another person
1:01:24what usually happens then is that at
1:01:26some point it comes back MH but it only
1:01:29comes back if you don't worry about it
1:01:30and if you don't put pressure on it that
1:01:32has to be not just about you it has to
1:01:34be about the person you're with as well
1:01:36because you know if they're oh never
1:01:38mind then we'll just do it another time
1:01:40okay so that's really interesting so the
1:01:42foundation of all of that though is
1:01:43communication absolutely because without
1:01:46that if if I go flatted and then I don't
1:01:49say anything about it and I just lay
1:01:51there like dormant and then she's laying
1:01:53there dormant and then we try and go to
1:01:55sleep and then we never address we never
1:01:57get to communicate cuz maybe I did want
1:01:58to have sex but maybe for some reason my
1:02:00to-do list was still on my mind exactly
1:02:02and notice that the Assumption behind it
1:02:05is that the sex that you're going to
1:02:07have is penis and vagina penetration is
1:02:09that even what she wants and if we could
1:02:12initiate sex in a way that was clearer
1:02:14if we could say to our partners easily
1:02:17um and really horny what I'd really like
1:02:19to do is X and it all be about me are
1:02:23you up for that that's quite different
1:02:26if we're able to be clear about that
1:02:27what would that do to your confidence
1:02:30with your actions does that make sense
1:02:32if she'd actually gone into that sexual
1:02:34encounter saying you know what all I
1:02:36want you to do is make me come I'm I'm
1:02:38I'm not I not feel like penetrative sex
1:02:40tonight if she'd felt confident to say
1:02:42that I can guarantee there would have
1:02:44been no problem with the erection the
1:02:46erection would have come as part of it
1:02:48because the whole process would have
1:02:49been arousing this is a bit of a left
1:02:51field one but I just remembered a debate
1:02:54me and my friends had in our little like
1:02:56mates
1:02:58chat is it better to have sex before or
1:03:01after you eat because he was like oh no
1:03:04I this I thought this was weird he was
1:03:06like I have sex before we go on the date
1:03:09I'm like what you have sex before the
1:03:11day he was like yeah no sex after no sex
1:03:13after food that is a good idea to be
1:03:15fair a lot of people say they struggle
1:03:18really when they're full they feel quite
1:03:20unsexy they feel a bit lethargic they
1:03:23feel a bit bloated they don't feel great
1:03:25about their body perhaps um a lot of
1:03:27people do that if they're going to have
1:03:29a date night I mean I never like date
1:03:30nights because I think by the time you
1:03:32get home from a date night you've maybe
1:03:35had a bit to drink you've maybe had a
1:03:36bit to eat it's maybe quite late it's
1:03:38not the best conditions for having sex
1:03:40actually I'd rather if you had a date
1:03:42night you kept it on fun emotional
1:03:44connection relationship satisfaction and
1:03:46then you plan an in at home date night
1:03:49that's more about physical intimacy okay
1:03:51do you know what I mean because it's not
1:03:52it's not that easy to do the two so your
1:03:54friend's probably right probably before
1:03:56food is better but you want to come back
1:03:58to frequency sure yeah because we talked
1:04:01about that earlier and this is one of
1:04:02the big myths that people talk about
1:04:05around sex life which is that the amount
1:04:07of sex that you have matters and it
1:04:10really
1:04:10doesn't so what I mean by that is that
1:04:14if you ask most people how often they
1:04:16should be having sex a week I mean what
1:04:17do you think they would say your friends
1:04:19or people on the street how much they
1:04:21should be having sex yeah a week a month
1:04:24how much do you think they'd say three
1:04:26times a week everyone says three times a
1:04:28week really it's this kind of urban myth
1:04:31that again forms part of our sexual
1:04:33scripts if we're not having sex three
1:04:35times a week there's a problem it's
1:04:37actually drastically different than that
1:04:39the average times people in in the UK
1:04:42and actually it's kind of replicated
1:04:43around the world but what's fascinating
1:04:46is that we're using frequency as a yard
1:04:49stick of a good sex life and there is no
1:04:52correlation between the fre frequency of
1:04:54sex and sexual satisfaction none
1:04:57whatsoever so you're saying it's quality
1:04:59over quantity absolutely you could be
1:05:01having sex you know once a year that
1:05:04completely blows your socks off makes
1:05:05you feel alive makes you feel super
1:05:07connected um that's really exploratory
1:05:10where you lose yourself in it and that
1:05:12is better than having sex once a day
1:05:15where you're not enjoying it your mind's
1:05:17not in it it's not pleasurable you're
1:05:19feeling disconnected you're feeling
1:05:21awkward so it's so interesting that we
1:05:24get so hung up on frequency in fact the
1:05:27average amount of times people are
1:05:29having sex in the UK If people are
1:05:31interested is around about three times a
1:05:33month but there is huge amount of
1:05:36variation there so plenty of people in
1:05:38relationships that haven't had sex for
1:05:39months and I'm quite happy with that and
1:05:41plenty of people having sex more but I
1:05:43think having that average is quite
1:05:46useful to talk about because actually
1:05:49it's a it's quite surprisingly different
1:05:52to how most people perceive it should be
1:05:54over 40% of women want to be having more
1:05:57sex than they are currently having which
1:06:00is in chapter two of this book in front
1:06:01of me mind the gap MH what about men so
1:06:03women are women want to be having over
1:06:0540% of them want to be having more sex
1:06:07than they're currently having yeah
1:06:09there's there's huge levels of sexual
1:06:11dissatisfaction for people of all
1:06:12genders everyone wants to be having more
1:06:15sex better sex than they're currently
1:06:17having we know that for women it's
1:06:19around about what just over half of
1:06:21women 52% and for men it's about 42% are
1:06:25unhappy with the sex lives that they
1:06:26have enormous numbers that's UK data
1:06:2915,000 adults between the ages men are
1:06:32typically more satisfied yeah and I
1:06:35suggest that the reason for that is that
1:06:38although men experience challenges with
1:06:40desire as well men find it easier on
1:06:43average to maintain desire for the same
1:06:45person and as we've already talked about
1:06:48women struggle to access their
1:06:49spontaneous desire and label that as a
1:06:51problem when it's not you know I'm aware
1:06:53we're talking very much about straight
1:06:54couples because that's where we see the
1:06:55majority of sexual problems but when we
1:06:57talk about men and women having sex
1:06:59together we also see that orgasm Gap so
1:07:02we see less pleasure and less reward for
1:07:04women which I think accounts for that
1:07:06slightly higher number so you said
1:07:08something in between there that was
1:07:09curious to me just to confirm over
1:07:11long-term relationships the man is more
1:07:14likely to maintain their desire for the
1:07:16woman in a heterosexual relationship
1:07:17that's right the woman is more likely to
1:07:19lose desire for her partner that's right
1:07:23and we're talking here remember about
1:07:24spontaneous desire okay okay is that
1:07:27remember there there the responsive
1:07:29desire we talked about earlier and we
1:07:31know that this is the interesting bit
1:07:33when it comes to women's desire it's
1:07:35actually much more easier to trigger
1:07:37with a wide range of sexual stimuli than
1:07:39men's so women's responsive desire works
1:07:41brilliantly you could say it works even
1:07:43better than men's so spontaneous desire
1:07:46is only one type of Desire it's that
1:07:48feeling of out of the blue lust
1:07:50horniness want to rip your clothes off
1:07:52it's partly attributable to to higher
1:07:54levels of androgens like testosterone
1:07:56but certainly not exclusively there's a
1:07:58massive social component to it as well
1:08:01so yes men find it easier to maintain
1:08:03that um but I think it's really
1:08:05important to say because there will be
1:08:06men listening to this that will be
1:08:07worried about their desire as we've said
1:08:09earlier 15% is actually quite a large
1:08:11number it's not all men some men really
1:08:14struggle to keep hold of that
1:08:15spontaneous desire in a long-term
1:08:17relationship and just to clarify the
1:08:19reactive desire is the desire that kicks
1:08:21in once you've begun basically yeah some
1:08:24kind of sexual stimuli some kind of
1:08:25sexual
1:08:26currency um it comes after
1:08:29arousal I want to close off on the
1:08:31subject of parents um I'm not a parent
1:08:34yet but my brother has three kids and
1:08:37they're under the age of six they're six
1:08:40and under he's got three of them I'm
1:08:42going to send in my book yes I'm going
1:08:44I'm sure he's he's going to listen
1:08:45anyway um and from that I've I've been
1:08:48able to understand on a surface level
1:08:51the plight of a parent sleep um kids
1:08:54waking up in the middle of the night
1:08:56work pressures a lot of people are
1:08:58working at home now as well so that that
1:09:00has impacts on sleep and how you're
1:09:01feeling and your mental health and all
1:09:03those things and to think that couples
1:09:06irrespective of children are struggling
1:09:07with sex you you said at the start of
1:09:09this conversation but it says in your
1:09:10book as well that we're having less and
1:09:13less sex um when you compare one decade
1:09:17to the previous decade and there was
1:09:19another study that I saw that said
1:09:21there's been General declines in sexual
1:09:22frequency in other count around the
1:09:24world as well like Japan Australia
1:09:25Finland and the USA mhm so we know that
1:09:28like we're we're having less sex with
1:09:30each other anyway and then you throw
1:09:32kids into the mix which I just I don't
1:09:34know I've not been there yet so I've not
1:09:36crossed that bridge but I'm trying to
1:09:38figure out when I do come to that bridge
1:09:40how on Earth I'm going to be able to
1:09:43have sexual desire when I'm a very busy
1:09:45CEO running multiple businesses
1:09:48traveling all over the world seeing my
1:09:49partner currently not very much you know
1:09:51and trying to make those moments where
1:09:53we do spend time together special then
1:09:55you throw in little Timmy who's
1:09:57going and he's not going to care about
1:10:00my schedule no and to it's going to
1:10:03become my priority for rightfully so if
1:10:05he behaves himself and then where sex
1:10:08going to go where you know yeah this is
1:10:10why it's it's a real challenge for
1:10:12parents and I think one of the key
1:10:13things one of the reasons I wrote the
1:10:15book actually is because the first thing
1:10:16that we can do for parents is talk about
1:10:19the fact that it's normal okay it's not
1:10:21you it's not your relationship it's
1:10:23nothing about the two of you together
1:10:24that means you shouldn't be together
1:10:26it's challenging to have a good sex life
1:10:28when you've got young kids at home it's
1:10:30challenging for everyone I think the
1:10:33second thing that we can do is explain
1:10:36to people what the factors are that tend
1:10:39to make a difference
1:10:41so people know about pregnancy people
1:10:44know about trying to conceive they
1:10:45understand that these things will impact
1:10:47on their sex life but I think the things
1:10:50that they don't acknowledge or don't
1:10:51realize as much is the trajectory that
1:10:54that sets them on in the early stages
1:10:57and the trajectory that that first year
1:10:59of having a newborn baby will set you on
1:11:02in terms of that reduction in sexual
1:11:04currency in terms of resentments that
1:11:07might start to breed and how your
1:11:09relationship Dynamic becomes in terms of
1:11:12how equal the mental load is and we know
1:11:14that the mental load so that's kind of
1:11:16the unequal division of labor which
1:11:18often falls on women in heterosexual
1:11:20relationships particularly when kids
1:11:21come along we know that there's a direct
1:11:24correlation between couples who divide
1:11:27that household labor in a kind of
1:11:30Equitable and transparent way and sexual
1:11:33satisfaction so it seems quite hard to
1:11:35believe but actually it doesn't have to
1:11:36be completely equal but if you feel as
1:11:38though your partner is pulling their
1:11:39weight if you feel as though it's not
1:11:41all automatically falling to you we know
1:11:44that people generally tend to have
1:11:45better sex so there's all kinds of
1:11:48things which parents need to know about
1:11:50their sex life that they don't is that
1:11:52about resentment though is that yeah
1:11:54it's resentment and it's about what I
1:11:56mentioned earlier about seeing your
1:11:57partner almost as a third child you're
1:12:00you're you're the captain of the house
1:12:02right you're the boss of the house and
1:12:04you have to hold in your mind everything
1:12:06you're the CEO of the house you have to
1:12:08hold in your mind everything that needs
1:12:09doing even for your partner yeah that
1:12:12they they're not holding anything
1:12:13they're not remembering the kids'
1:12:15birthdays they're not thinking they need
1:12:16to buy a present you're having to do
1:12:18that that takes your attention away from
1:12:20sex and it also raises your resentment
1:12:23and sexual satisfaction can really
1:12:25suffer but there are a few other things
1:12:27that I like to talk about in the book
1:12:28that I think are really important for
1:12:30parents and one of them is I compare the
1:12:32Journey of Parenthood a little bit like
1:12:35um a kind of navigation across the seas
1:12:38right so Parenthood is the storm and
1:12:40it's a storm for everyone and there are
1:12:42different phases of the storm and some
1:12:44of it you just need to Baton down the
1:12:45hatches and get through it as unscathed
1:12:48as you can and not worry about sex so
1:12:50much that might be like the newborn
1:12:51phase but then there are also parts of
1:12:54the journey where you might have found
1:12:56yourself knocked off course a little bit
1:12:58and what you actually need to do is take
1:13:00stock of the boat and say hold on what
1:13:02what's going on here what are we doing
1:13:04if we continue on this trajectory 10 15
1:13:07years down the line we're likely to be
1:13:10in a place where sex is
1:13:12unrecoverable versus if we make a small
1:13:15change a degree or two to the left or
1:13:17right very small changes over the long
1:13:20term we might end up in an entirely
1:13:22different destination
1:13:24and so the book is all about what are
1:13:26those small changes and this might be
1:13:28surprising to some people it's not
1:13:29having more sex it's other ways of
1:13:33increasing sexual satisfaction so for
1:13:35example we know that when we turn each
1:13:39other down gently for sex it increases
1:13:42sexual satisfaction we know that when we
1:13:44increase sexual currency which doesn't
1:13:46have to take much time we increase
1:13:47sexual satisfaction so there are many
1:13:50things that people can do even if they
1:13:52don't feel they have time or head space
1:13:54for sex or until they have the time and
1:13:56head space for sex that can just keep
1:13:59that boat kind of heading in the right
1:14:02direction what about what's the
1:14:03relationship there with sleep and sex
1:14:05then because obviously if if I've got
1:14:07little Timmy crying at night time at
1:14:083:00 a.m. uh I'm going to be poorly
1:14:10slept the next day which means will that
1:14:12have an impact on how horny I am yes
1:14:15yeah big relationship between sleep and
1:14:17sex for all of us we know that if you
1:14:18get a good night's sleep your chances of
1:14:20having sex the next day increase by 14%
1:14:22so that's for all of us when it comes to
1:14:25parents there is some quite interesting
1:14:27data about the impact of nighttime
1:14:30waking on your sex life we know that the
1:14:33number of times you get up in the night
1:14:35to tends to a child like to go to the
1:14:37cot or the bed to see to a crying child
1:14:40the number of times you get up has an
1:14:42impact on what's happening in your sex
1:14:45life and for your desire so we tend to
1:14:47see the more times you get up the less
1:14:49happy you are with your sex life and the
1:14:51reason for that is because not not
1:14:53getting a good night's sleep disrupts um
1:14:55how the body responds to sexual response
1:14:58so how the chemicals in the body that
1:15:00help us be prepared for arousal to build
1:15:03but also it's the cognitive distraction
1:15:06of being woken up by something quite
1:15:09upsetting someone else crying and having
1:15:11to deal with it which we know disrupts
1:15:14the part of our sleep the RM sleep which
1:15:16actually we need for our sexual
1:15:18functioning so even just knowing that as
1:15:21a parent and knowing that
1:15:23look if you're getting up many times a
1:15:25night don't worry about your sex life
1:15:27for the time being what you can do as a
1:15:30couple is focus on sharing that more
1:15:32equally because if one of you is getting
1:15:33a good night's sleep and feeling horny
1:15:35all the time and another one's getting
1:15:36up three times and sex is the last thing
1:15:38on their mind probably the best thing
1:15:40that you can do is try and share it is
1:15:42there a certain age
1:15:44where sex comes back in in terms of your
1:15:47children's age is there like when you
1:15:48get to I don't know 10 years old then
1:15:51sex comes back in typically yeah so we
1:15:54know that people start getting sleep
1:15:55from when their kid is about six but
1:15:57obviously if you've got another one
1:15:58that's a bit younger um then you might
1:16:00be starting the process all over again
1:16:02so given that sleep's so important the
1:16:04older they get the better that is for
1:16:06people's sex lives I mean it's hugely
1:16:09variable so there are plenty of people
1:16:12that start having sex again um you know
1:16:14within three months of their baby being
1:16:17born and yes it may be less frequent
1:16:20than before but it doesn't disrupt their
1:16:22sex lives as much much and then there's
1:16:24plenty of people whereby it might take
1:16:25them a year to even start having sex
1:16:28again and then the frequency of having
1:16:30sex might stay quite infrequent for some
1:16:32time what's interesting though in how
1:16:35quickly people get back to it is that
1:16:38how quickly people get back to it is
1:16:40often about the habits that they've then
1:16:42fallen into as a sexual couple so low
1:16:45levels of sexual currency high levels of
1:16:48awkwardness not prioritizing time
1:16:50together you know Parenthood is
1:16:52basically a jug of priorities right all
1:16:54the time there's always something else
1:16:55you should be doing and so the sex that
1:16:58you have has to be enticing enough for
1:17:01your brain to say yeah I'm going to
1:17:03sacrifice that for sex because there's
1:17:06always something else that you should be
1:17:07doing with your time so it's those
1:17:10habits that we fall into around our sex
1:17:12lives that dictate how quickly people
1:17:14get back into it at what point does
1:17:16someone should they reach out to a
1:17:18person like you for help I wish people
1:17:20would do it sooner they always wait
1:17:23until it's got really bad and by that
1:17:25time it's fine we can still reverse it
1:17:28there's a lot we can do but all these
1:17:30habits have kind of settled in all of
1:17:32this awkwardness pressure resentment
1:17:35people have moved to quite polarized
1:17:37positions it would be great if people
1:17:39came earlier I'd like people to think of
1:17:42someone like me a bit like a personal
1:17:44trainer for your sex life that you don't
1:17:46necessarily go to a personal trainer
1:17:48just when I don't know things are
1:17:50terrible you go because you want to
1:17:52improve something
1:17:53maintain yeah or maintain um I'd love
1:17:56people to see it that way you use the
1:17:58word we can always reverse it but then a
1:18:00couple of moments before you use the
1:18:01word unrecoverable now I wanted to know
1:18:04is is there ever a situation have you
1:18:07ever seen patients in your practice
1:18:10where you knew intuitively this is
1:18:12unrecoverable oh of course of course
1:18:14what were the Hallmarks of unrecoverable
1:18:16um so the Gans talk about the four
1:18:19horsemen and they talk about resentment
1:18:21as being um an aspect of a relationship
1:18:24Dynamic that often means that it can be
1:18:27quite hard for people to recover from
1:18:29that and for the relationship to survive
1:18:31sometimes when you're talking about sex
1:18:33if resentment comes across quite
1:18:35strongly in the way that people talk to
1:18:37each other it gives you a good
1:18:38indication that this is going to be
1:18:39quite challenging I would say though
1:18:42that sometimes unrecoverable is a good
1:18:45outcome because we're not necessarily
1:18:48destined to be monogamous we're not
1:18:51necessarily destined to be with one
1:18:52person person yes social convention
1:18:54makes us feel that that should be the
1:18:56case but for some people a good outcome
1:18:58is having a split and a good sexual
1:19:01relationship with someone else so
1:19:03sometimes identifying that it's
1:19:05unrecoverable because it's gone so far
1:19:08it's been so long perhaps they were
1:19:09never that sexually compatible in the
1:19:11first place decades later there's tons
1:19:13of resentment maybe it is the best thing
1:19:16at that point and perhaps that is a good
1:19:18outcome for some
1:19:20people point of curiosity what are the
1:19:22the types of problems that people come
1:19:25to you with the types of challenges they
1:19:26come to you with what what is you know
1:19:28you see a couple sit down um the first
1:19:32sentence out of their mouth what are
1:19:34those sort of five most popular
1:19:36sentences that come out of their mouth
1:19:38um it would be the first one and by far
1:19:40the most popular is we have a great
1:19:43relationship but and it's a problem with
1:19:46sex usually a problem with initiation or
1:19:48desire that is by far the most common
1:19:51presentation we love each other
1:19:53immensely you know we have so much
1:19:55respect for each other we have a great
1:19:56partnership but sex just doesn't happen
1:19:58or it doesn't happen in the way that we
1:20:00want the second is probably specific
1:20:03problems that people have with their
1:20:05bodies and sex so people that are
1:20:07experiencing pain particularly painful
1:20:09penetration people who are worrying
1:20:11about erections worrying about orgasms
1:20:14these things are all quite
1:20:15common the third is probably navigating
1:20:19change so we talked earlier about how
1:20:22sexual relationships need to be able to
1:20:24flex and allow growth for us as
1:20:26individuals and quite often because we
1:20:29can't talk about it growth happens for
1:20:32one person and then they're suddenly not
1:20:34getting their sexual needs met so for
1:20:37example they might suddenly decide that
1:20:40there's something that they're into or
1:20:41want to explore that they do not feel
1:20:44able to talk about with their partner
1:20:45and without it the sexual relationship
1:20:48is a crisis point and so we need to be
1:20:51able to
1:20:53allow space for that sexual relationship
1:20:55to see whether it can withstand that
1:20:57change and growth and create that
1:20:59culture of growth I'm I was just playing
1:21:01in my mind all the all the really
1:21:03incredible things you must have heard
1:21:04from people about like their fantasies
1:21:07and stuff like that and
1:21:13um I'm trying not to break your client
1:21:15patient
1:21:16confidentiality just thinking about the
1:21:18other like the unexpected things that
1:21:20people come to you and ask you about you
1:21:22know what's one of the most unexpected
1:21:24things after 20 years of doing my job
1:21:27one of the things that has come up a lot
1:21:30recently that has surprised me and it
1:21:33may not surprise you I don't know if
1:21:34you've got any but the impact of pets on
1:21:37people's sex lives oh my have you got
1:21:39any pets I've got a dog and he loves to
1:21:41watch there you go you know this was a
1:21:43massive surprise to me I've been doing
1:21:44this job decades and only recently I
1:21:47something came up on my insta and it
1:21:49blew up with people saying yeah my pet's
1:21:52con constantly ruining the mood they're
1:21:54either trying to get involved or they're
1:21:56watching or they're in the room or it
1:21:58puts the other person off this was one
1:21:59of the biggest surprises to me honestly
1:22:01so what's the so people are saying that
1:22:03what the pet is jumping in or my pet my
1:22:05my dog um I think he was concerned about
1:22:10my partner I think he thinks that she's
1:22:12being attacked or protective yeah he's
1:22:15very very protective so sometimes I
1:22:17think he thinks he looks really upset
1:22:18and then when he was younger he used to
1:22:20like wee himself oh when he was watching
1:22:22which is like a nervous Wing cuz money
1:22:24and Daddy are fighting it's like well I
1:22:27think it was we it was I mean it's it's
1:22:29a big deal when you think about what we
1:22:31talked earlier about attention and
1:22:33distraction because nobody really wants
1:22:36to have to take account of a third
1:22:39person in in well unless you want a
1:22:41third person in the room but you know a
1:22:42pet in the room basically it's quite
1:22:44distracting right it is yeah and if you
1:22:47put them outside my understanding
1:22:49because I've heard this as cats as well
1:22:50my understanding is that they will bar
1:22:52and scratch at the door it's not like
1:22:54you can keep them away very easily this
1:22:56is a massive challenge pets should come
1:22:57with a warning label for your sex life
1:23:00so you think pet should not be invited
1:23:01into the I would say not but I mean some
1:23:04people are obviously fine with it but
1:23:06the reaction I got from people on my
1:23:09social media was this is a major problem
1:23:11and I've never heard of it before I've
1:23:12never seen it written in research it's a
1:23:15new thing maybe it's lockdown everyone
1:23:17got pets are you hopeful for the uh
1:23:20trajectory of sex in this world I really
1:23:23am actually there is I think there's
1:23:25been a a boost of sex positivity um in
1:23:30the media on social media on TV shows
1:23:34like sex
1:23:35education I think what I've noticed is
1:23:38that's not yet trickled down to the
1:23:39therapy room so you know what I see and
1:23:43think is happening I guess because I'm
1:23:44plugged into those things and the types
1:23:46of people I follow on social media I
1:23:48really feel like it's changing and
1:23:50people are understanding more about sex
1:23:53feeling more assertive about sex
1:23:55understanding that it doesn't have to
1:23:57look one way looking at different
1:23:58relationship structures not just
1:23:59assuming monogamy not just assuming
1:24:02heterosexuality but actually what I see
1:24:04in the therapy room is that's not
1:24:06trickled down yet and so my hope is that
1:24:09in the decade that follows we'll be in
1:24:12quite a different place and you know for
1:24:14me as a parent of two boys that's quite
1:24:17an exciting place to be because we know
1:24:19that our first sexual experience is
1:24:21actually quite influential in dictating
1:24:24our sexual satisfaction lifelong so to
1:24:28be able to go into sex with more
1:24:30knowledge to be able to have an
1:24:31experience that is good rather than bad
1:24:34which is most people's first experience
1:24:36I think that's a great gift that we can
1:24:38give younger people you use the word
1:24:41change there talking about how we have
1:24:43to sort of grow and adapt through our
1:24:44sexual Journey with a long-term partner
1:24:46one of the changes that I've come to
1:24:48learn that takes place from doing this
1:24:50podcast is menopause M and that cans on
1:24:53someone's sexuales has an on our
1:24:56hormones and how we're feeling I'm
1:24:57learning more and more about menopause
1:24:59but I imagine some of the people that
1:25:00come to you and talk about their sexual
1:25:02desire are referencing the impact that
1:25:04menopause has had or paropa AB
1:25:05absolutely the symptoms of menopause can
1:25:07be um really unpleasant for a lot of
1:25:10people not for everyone of course but
1:25:12things like hot flushes and um aches and
1:25:14pains and mood changes they obviously
1:25:17can really disrupt your interest in sex
1:25:19there's also other things going on in
1:25:21menopause that are more
1:25:22kind of Psychosocial as well often
1:25:24around stay long-term relationships all
1:25:27the things we've talked about around
1:25:29desire and sometimes the work is
1:25:31figuring out how much of it is to do
1:25:33with menopause which some of it might be
1:25:35how much of it was there before and is
1:25:37exacerbated by those symptoms of
1:25:38menopause but it's really important in
1:25:40fact hormonal fluctuations for all
1:25:43people with menstrual cycles actually
1:25:46are quite important when it comes to sex
1:25:48and we do see changes across the monthly
1:25:50cycle in um people's receptiveness to
1:25:54sex and also the types of sex that
1:25:56they're interested in changes one of the
1:26:00changes that happens when we have kids
1:26:01is our bodies change yeah hugely and
1:26:04that can have a big impact I imagine on
1:26:06self-confidence but also potentially
1:26:09attraction yeah I think there's often a
1:26:12big worry that those body changes will
1:26:15influence attraction and again because
1:26:17we don't talk about it people never get
1:26:19to find out so a lot of people tell me
1:26:22that they're worried that their partner
1:26:23won't find them as attractive because
1:26:25they've got stretch marks or because
1:26:26their body looks different and actually
1:26:28they've never voiced that part of the
1:26:30success of therapy is people speak the
1:26:32things that they don't speak elsewhere
1:26:35and sometimes just having a conversation
1:26:36about those things means that the
1:26:38problem is removed instantly by someone
1:26:41saying well actually no like I can see
1:26:43your body's change but you know the way
1:26:45your belly looks isn't the sole
1:26:47attraction that I have for you so yes
1:26:49it's changed but no it's not shifted my
1:26:52attraction for you so so yeah changes um
1:26:56to body image and how that affects you
1:26:58during sex but also what you were AA
1:27:00partner might think can be a huge thing
1:27:02for parents are we are we meant to be
1:27:04monogamous no is that a shitty question
1:27:07are we meant to be anything no you know
1:27:09it's not a very popular answer this and
1:27:12actually when I post about this on my
1:27:14socials people hate it because it really
1:27:16disrupts what a lot of us are doing I'm
1:27:18monogamous myself right but we are not
1:27:21destined to be ogous we there isn't
1:27:23anything about humans that means that
1:27:26we're designed to maintain sexual
1:27:28interest in the same person for a long
1:27:30amount of time that's why if we have sex
1:27:33with the same person forever if you
1:27:36don't work at it if you don't nurture it
1:27:37if you don't allow growth it's going to
1:27:39be challenging because we're not
1:27:41designed to do it our brains they get
1:27:43bored they need um novelty they don't
1:27:46like
1:27:47predictability so we're not designed to
1:27:49be monogamous and I think what's
1:27:52fascinating is that we all just kind of
1:27:54fall into it because it's a social
1:27:56construct that is kind of politically
1:27:58and economically and historically
1:28:00present we just think that's what we
1:28:02should do it's fine if people choose it
1:28:05of course it is but I think if you
1:28:07choose monogamy I think you have to have
1:28:09your eyes open to the fact that you
1:28:11can't expect that that means you'll
1:28:13maintain sexual interest for that person
1:28:16without any
1:28:17effort that's what we know about
1:28:19long-term monogamy spontaneous desire
1:28:21will drop sexual currency will drop
1:28:24person will become very familiar you'll
1:28:25need to find ways to keep sex novel
1:28:28you'll need to not order the set menu
1:28:30you'll need to go for the buffet you
1:28:32need to bring different versions of
1:28:34yourself into sex there's so many things
1:28:36that you need to be conscious of if you
1:28:38choose monogamy if you want a good sex
1:28:40life and I think monogamy tends to bring
1:28:44with it an idea that that person will
1:28:46just always remain sexually interested
1:28:48in you because you've married them or
1:28:52perhaps you don't need to work at it and
1:28:54I think those things can be quite
1:28:55harmful those
1:28:56ideas I've read like only four or five%
1:28:59of people identify as being polygamous
1:29:03is that the right word polygamy so I
1:29:06mean there are many different words but
1:29:07um in terms of open relationship
1:29:10structures of which there are many I
1:29:12think I think they're on the rise and I
1:29:15think that's a good thing because I
1:29:16think all of us a bit like as I said
1:29:19earlier that idea of compulsory
1:29:20heterosexuality you're kind of
1:29:22monogamous and straight unless you prove
1:29:24otherwise or choose otherwise right it'd
1:29:26be great if we all had an idea that well
1:29:28you could be any of those things and
1:29:30there is not a one that's best or right
1:29:33but why don't you look at all the
1:29:34options before you make your mind up do
1:29:36you have people come and see you that
1:29:37are in those polygamous relationships
1:29:40yeah absolutely and I have plenty of
1:29:42people come and see me that are moving
1:29:44from monogamy into opening up and want
1:29:47to think about how they can do that in a
1:29:49way that privileges their kind of Prim
1:29:51primary relationship so that that's
1:29:55actually a really wonderful thing to
1:29:56work with I love working with those
1:29:58couples because actually they're really
1:30:00able to think outside the box and they
1:30:04can separate their love from each other
1:30:06and their commitment to each other from
1:30:07their sexual interests and they cannot
1:30:10be threatened by the idea of sex
1:30:12elsewhere um it's yeah it's really fun
1:30:15to work with a new set of problems and
1:30:19does it work I would say a new set of
1:30:21solutions interesting does it does it
1:30:23work yes but like monogamy it only works
1:30:26if you work at it because there are
1:30:28another set of things that you might
1:30:29need to work at that are you know you
1:30:31might not need to work on novelty you
1:30:32might not need to work on predictability
1:30:35um because you you're getting that with
1:30:36different partners but you do need to
1:30:38work on boundaries communication um how
1:30:41you manage it together and the constant
1:30:43flux of that so it all requires work
1:30:46what if you're in a relationship right
1:30:47now and you want an open relationship
1:30:50what is the best way to broker that
1:30:52conversation with your partner is it
1:30:54just a hey babe let's sit down and have
1:30:56dinner um I'd like to have an open
1:30:58relationship I think you know direct is
1:31:01good but also if you want to test the
1:31:03waters you might say like we talked
1:31:06about earlier with communication I was
1:31:08listening to this podcast turns out that
1:31:10you know a lot of us choose monogamy
1:31:12without even thinking it through did you
1:31:14do that did you choose monogamy did you
1:31:16know that was right for you I've been
1:31:18thinking about this for myself recently
1:31:20I don't know why I chose it my partner
1:31:22said that to me it would be like a
1:31:23dagger in the heart I'd be oh gosh got
1:31:28nervous even hearing that cuz it because
1:31:30you know what they're implying they're
1:31:31implying that they want to go shag
1:31:33someone
1:31:34else yeah and we you know one of our
1:31:36ideas about sex and sexual relationships
1:31:41is that the attraction and desire we
1:31:43have for our partner or the romantic
1:31:44love we have for our partner is finite
1:31:47MH and that if it moves to someone else
1:31:49it's lost from us MH and it's it's a
1:31:51really interesting concept that we only
1:31:53really have with romantic love like we
1:31:55don't have it with love for our children
1:31:57we don't think if we have another one
1:31:58we'll stop loving the first one and we
1:32:00don't have it for our friends right we
1:32:02can have multiple friends and love them
1:32:03all equally or love them all differently
1:32:05so you think we can love multiple people
1:32:07absolutely yeah but I think we are we
1:32:09feel fear about the concept of it simply
1:32:12because in our mind that is a threat to
1:32:15our connection I think you know it's a
1:32:18really it's a really interesting concept
1:32:19and it'd be it'll be fascinating to see
1:32:22where we go with different relationship
1:32:23structures in in the decades that follow
1:32:27Dr Karen
1:32:28gurny we have a closing judici on this
1:32:31podcast where the last guest leaves a
1:32:32question for the next guest not knowing
1:32:33who they're leaving it for and there's
1:32:35two questions that have been left for
1:32:36you the first one is what's the worst
1:32:39advice you've ever
1:32:41received the worst advice I've ever
1:32:43received was to not become a
1:32:46psychologist cuz I wasn't cut out for it
1:32:48who gave you that advice my first
1:32:50supervisor I hope she's
1:32:54listening what when she said you're not
1:32:56cut out for it MH what did she mean she
1:32:59said to me there are many qualities
1:33:01required to be a good clinical
1:33:02psychologist unfortunately you don't
1:33:04have any of them what a thing to say to
1:33:06somebody it was very early on in my
1:33:08career I must have been you know 19 20
1:33:11um so yeah I'm glad to have proved her
1:33:13wrong and the second question is what's
1:33:16the best advice you can offer Steven
1:33:19bartler on how he can improve
1:33:22well I'll obviously have to focus it on
1:33:24sex okay and it's going to be create a
1:33:26culture of talking about sex
1:33:29often initiate freely and be really
1:33:33comfortable with being turned down thank
1:33:35you so much it's been an absolute um
1:33:37honor to go on this journey of sex with
1:33:39you I mean that sounds a little bit
1:33:40strange but you know what I me go with
1:33:42it yeah um to learn about your
1:33:44perspective on sex it's really
1:33:45refreshing I've spoken to a few people
1:33:47that are experts on the subject matter
1:33:48of sex and orgasms and everything in
1:33:50between but your perspective is um
1:33:53really refreshing because it focuses on
1:33:56first reframing what sex is and some of
1:33:59the like underlying um psychological
1:34:02barriers that we create about our
1:34:04perceptions of what sex is and if we
1:34:06start there then we probably won't have
1:34:08a lot of these other Upstream symptoms
1:34:10of that like misunderstanding that's
1:34:12exactly of what sex is um and also I've
1:34:16from doing this podcast had tons of
1:34:17parents that have contacted me asking
1:34:19about when you become a parent what
1:34:21happen in your sex life so your book has
1:34:23come at a fantastic time in culture I
1:34:25recommend people go and get both books
1:34:27um both of which are available now both
1:34:29are incredible reads they're really
1:34:30inclusive and easy to read and your new
1:34:32book how not to let having kids ruin
1:34:34your sex life is essential reading for
1:34:36all parents that might be struggling
1:34:38with this so thank you really appr thank
1:34:40you it's been a
1:34:42pleasure I think it was about a year ago
1:34:44I became obsessed with sleep to the
1:34:46point that as many of you know I pretty
1:34:48much have it as a non-negotiable one of
1:34:50the things that I found is's a brand
1:34:51called Eight sleep that sponsor this
1:34:54podcast and that is the cover that I
1:34:55have on my bed some of you will know
1:34:57that in order to have optimal sleep our
1:34:58bodies need to be a certain temperature
1:35:00and there's slight variance between all
1:35:02of us that's exactly what eight sleep
1:35:04does it learns my body and regulates
1:35:06both sides of my bed with two people on
1:35:08it so that we both have optimal sleep
1:35:10and on the app you can also see how much
1:35:12you've slept if you've underslept and
1:35:14how you've performed across multiple
1:35:15stages of sleep it is a bit of a
1:35:17revelation in my life I have to be
1:35:18honest it automatically regulates our
1:35:20temperature so we sleep deeper and
1:35:23therefore wake up feeling more restored
1:35:25more energized and more capable to
1:35:27pursue our goals the podcast sponsors
1:35:29that I have are brands that I love and
1:35:31use and eight sleep is one of them I've
1:35:33had so many technological game changes
1:35:35in my life and eight sleep is certainly
1:35:37one of them check it out at 8sleep.com
1:35:40stepen for Holiday
1:35:42[Music]
1:35:50savings
1:35:53[Music]
1:36:02[Music]
1:36:05oh

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