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The Odyssey: How is the Film Speaking to Our Time? — Transcript

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0:00All right, John Celig and Jason Holly,
0:02welcome. I'm really excited to talk to
0:04you today about this major Hollywood
0:07film, The Odyssey, which has already
0:10been labeled and has become a
0:12blockbuster film. It's doing extremely
0:14well at the box office. It's making a
0:17big cultural impact, it seems, with a
0:20lot of people really excited about it
0:21and talking about it. And I know each of
0:25you personally through my work in
0:27astrology and mythology. And I know that
0:29each of you has done significant work
0:32with the Odyssey and that's why I
0:34thought you'd be a perfect combination
0:36of people to talk about this. What could
0:38you tell us about your work and also how
0:41what you've done related to the Odyssey?
0:43You could you could start John if you'd
0:45like.
0:46>> Sure. Uh hey everyone. I'm John Celig.
0:48Uh I write about uh mythology and
0:50psychology and creativity. Uh I was with
0:53Gray last week uh for our discussion.
0:54That was a lot of fun. And um let's see.
0:57I've worked with the Odyssey a ton
0:58because I just finished my first uh book
1:0112 ways to read the Odyssey which is uh
1:04available for pre-order now and coming
1:06out next week sometime. Uh so I have
1:08thought about this story so much. I
1:11finished the book before I saw the
1:13movie. So it's very much about the poem
1:15and how to relate to it and embody it
1:17and explore it and live in it and hold
1:19its questions. Um you know so I have a
1:22real soft spot for this story. So, I'm
1:24excited to talk to you guys and see how
1:26we can bring some of all all that into
1:30the movie. Is it possible? Does the
1:32movie give us enough mythic power to
1:34sort of run with those things or does it
1:36do something else?
1:39>> Awesome.
1:40>> Yeah. And and I'm uh I'm an astrologer
1:43and
1:45mythology person.
1:48Um you know I was thinking for myself
1:50you know the Odyssey is um for me it's
1:54probably the most readable of the
1:56ancient texts the most like I think very
1:59suited for people who in our time it's
2:01it's very receivable
2:04um and uh for me I one thing I used to
2:07do with I mean I have been you know
2:10walking with it for a really long time
2:11but uh maybe like uh 10 12 years ago
2:16there were several autumn seasons where
2:18I would go away to Pagosa Springs, a
2:20little cabin in the woods, and usually
2:23the only things that came with me were
2:24the Odyssey, uh sometimes uh the red
2:27book of Yung, and art supplies and
2:30dreams. And uh I did that for at less
2:37also I think dwelling with it that way
2:40too was a wellspring of of work that
2:43I've done in astrology and myth since
2:45then. Um and then I I teach it regularly
2:48with experiential astrology. Uh so we
2:51get in the story, we enact it, we look
2:54at the astrology connections, and there
2:57are many. Um we uh do drama, we do art
3:01making. So I've gotten to see
3:03interpretations of the Odyssey, uh other
3:05modern interpretations besides this
3:07movie just from people's makings and
3:09creatings and reflections. Um so for me
3:12it's it's uh it's yeah it's very very
3:15special very special story for sure.
3:17Yeah.
3:18>> Yeah. And I know in addition so yeah you
3:20through the Hermes Hessia center you've
3:22been running courses where people you
3:24read it with people and you do art and u
3:28movement and astrodrama or psychodrama I
3:32guess you could say and different things
3:34like that right and working through the
3:35story. And I think you've done that at
3:37least I feel like three or four times.
3:39Yeah, I' yeah, I've done it in person a
3:41couple times and I've done it online a
3:43couple times and I'm sure we'll I'm sure
3:45it will happen.
3:46>> You're also in the uh contemporary
3:48astrology scene. I feel like you're one
3:50of the people known as doing the most
3:53presentations with the Odyssey at least.
3:56You're one of the people that really
3:57comes to mind who like you're saying for
3:59over a decade you've been doing work
4:02like presentations and workshops and I
4:03most of those I think have been focused
4:05on Neptune.
4:07>> Yeah, that's true. Yeah, a lot of them
4:09have been uh looking at particularly the
4:11dialectic of Neptune Athena or Poseidon
4:14Athena um and uh you know thinking about
4:17the story. I I actually think the
4:20Odyssey is one answer to the often posed
4:24statement about Poseidon is such an
4:26angry god and has all these epithets and
4:29ways that don't seem to match the
4:31astrological Neptune, you know, that
4:33we're given. And but for me, the Odyssey
4:36is the answer to that. I think you could
4:38everything that happens as the in the
4:40Odyssey is so Neptunian. Um so that's
4:43that's one of my major passions with
4:46that. Yeah, you're right. I've done some
4:47talks and things at conferences to
4:49really um I think it's an education of
4:52about Neptune and the dimension of
4:54Neptune. Yeah.
4:56>> And fittingly for that, when John and I
4:58did our previous episode, we recorded
5:00that on the day that Neptune stationed
5:03>> retrograde in Aries. And we also noted
5:06that we did it the day after the world
5:07premiere of the Odyssey that happened in
5:10London. That was like a week or a half
5:12before the actual film got released. But
5:14so the one thing that's really notable
5:16to what's been really accurate about
5:19your work there is that when this film
5:21is finally having its world premiere,
5:24Neptune is stationing in Aries with the
5:28moon applying to a conjunction with
5:31Neptune in Aries when the world premiere
5:33happens. And one of the things we're
5:36going to move away from the astrology,
5:37but as I've already gotten going with
5:39this, we might as well keep talking
5:40about for a moment. This film, the film
5:43is very Saturn Neptune. Um, we're in an
5:46incredibly Saturn Neptune dominated time
5:48period with a incredible Saturn Neptune
5:51conjunction that happened earlier this
5:52year at the beginning of Aries. And
5:54that's something that might we might
5:56come back later and talk more about the
5:58astrology and how this fits in. So, one
6:00of the things that's so fascinating
6:01about this is, of course, like John and
6:03I previously talked about, this is such
6:05an ancient story. It goes so far back in
6:08time, we don't really even know fully
6:10how far back in time it goes. It's
6:13eventually recorded as an epic poem
6:17attributed to Homer. We can talk more
6:20about that if you all would like to
6:21about just like who exactly is Homer or
6:23is Homer more like a multiplicitus
6:27collection of rapsodic poets. But it is
6:31coming from a time period of of rapidity
6:34of these rapsic poets and epic poetry
6:37and singing these songs. And so the
6:39rapso were these sewers of songs who
6:43were weaving the threads of different
6:45stories and different interpretations,
6:48you know, into these tapestries of epic
6:50poems, really singing the song, you
6:53know, in the moment to an audience,
6:56receiving them. And in in that weaving
6:59and unweaving of these threads of
7:01different versions and songs and
7:04stories, it's really interesting that at
7:06the center of the Odyssey is Penelope
7:08who is weaving and unweaving
7:12her tapestry. And I think that's a
7:15really interesting frame for how these
7:17stories and myths come down through
7:19time. The Odyssey is something that has
7:21been told and retold many times. There's
7:24many versions of the Odyssey that are
7:27being woven together in Christopher
7:29Nolan's films, such as significantly
7:32Virgil's version of it is is clearly
7:34showing up in a big way. So, what we're
7:36going to look at today is more than
7:40instead of just like reviewing, we're
7:41not really going to be giving like our
7:42film review of this. We're going to be
7:44giving more of a reception studies
7:47perspective and thinking about how has
7:50this film been rewoven into this
7:53contemporary time period that we're
7:55we're in right now and how did we feel
7:57it's being received and you know what's
8:00really come across with the film. So we
8:02could start with you John just what's
8:04what's some of your impressions now that
8:07you've actually seen it and um
8:09experienced the film.
8:11>> Yeah. Um, so I know I'm not giving a
8:13review, but I think it was a pretty good
8:16movie. Right now, is it a good myth? I
8:19think that's going to be something we
8:20talk about a lot today. Um, myth is one
8:23of those words that has an endless pile
8:25of definitions, so it might be a
8:27fruitless exercise, but I think there is
8:30a lot in this movie and there are so
8:33many layers to it. The average movie
8:34goer is going to go and see a spectacle
8:37and be wowed, right? And that's great.
8:39Uh I guess the question I want to ask is
8:41is this a Trojan horse uh in its own
8:44way, right? Is it containing some deeper
8:47meaning that our culture, our moment
8:49needs to experience right now in some
8:52bigger way? Um I would love for that to
8:54be true. I have inklings that maybe he
8:57was pointing to something like that or
8:59just the moment is pointing to something
9:00like that. Um but I also have a lot of
9:03questions about that. So, I'm excited to
9:04unpack that with you guys today because
9:06I think there's so much to it that we
9:08could we could be here a while. So, all
9:10good.
9:11>> How about you, Jason? Well, I you know,
9:14yeah. I mean, for me, the the intriguing
9:16question is the reception studies kind
9:18of question. And um and maybe to say a
9:22little bit about that way of thinking is
9:24this notion, right, that we have these
9:27symbols, we have these stories that are,
9:30you know, that have really immemorial
9:32origins. Um and then they are received
9:35into different places and times, right?
9:38And so uh and and when they're when they
9:41when they enter into those different
9:42places and times, they take different
9:44shapes. Um and the person who's making
9:47the shaping is has some conscious
9:49intentions usually. Um but then also
9:52it's much more from my perspective
9:54shaped by the the spirit of the times.
9:56So if we use way of speaking, Jung would
9:59speak about the spirit of the depths,
10:01you know, these deep archetypal
10:02realities. uh and then the spirit of the
10:05times and then the question of how do
10:07those intersect is it's a reception
10:09question you know how how does this
10:12thing take a new shape given the
10:15conditions that it's coming into and for
10:17astrology folk this should be really
10:19recognizable as essentially a divinatory
10:21way of seeing because really when you do
10:23divination right you have a time and a
10:25place uh and you usually have a concern
10:28or a question right that that's that's
10:30sort of what that's the set and setting
10:32of a divination And then the symbol
10:35enters that and speaks in a way to that
10:37time, that place, those webs of
10:39relations and that concern. And so it's
10:43it's a really powerful way. And for us,
10:45we get to learn about the story in a new
10:47way every time it hits a new time and
10:49place and every time it finds a new
10:51medium also, you know. So, one of the
10:54examples that you and I, Gray, had
10:56spoken a little bit about was thinking
10:58about, you know, you have Homer giving
11:00us the the uh Odyssey and the Iliad. Um,
11:05you know, around 700 750 BC,
11:08you know, a couple hundred years later,
11:10we're going to have the Traid the
11:12Tragedians, the the trag Greek drama
11:14emerges, which is an entirely new
11:17medium. So, for one thing, the medium is
11:19going to change what you can do. It's
11:21going to subtract things. You're not
11:23going to have that private revery in
11:25quite the same way. You become a visual
11:27spectator. They can stage things in ways
11:30that you didn't necessarily imagine. Um,
11:33and so you can achieve things there, but
11:34you also lose things. It's always going
11:36to be that way. And then also it met the
11:39moment. So, so Uripides, uh, you know,
11:41came to mind for us. And as an example
11:44of that, right, that Uripides, uh, you
11:47know, really reworked many of the
11:50different stories that Homer gives. Um,
11:53and they met a moment and the moment in
11:55that situation, for instance, was the
11:57Pelpeneisian wars, which were the wars
12:00between Athens and Sparta. Um, and they
12:02were wars that it was truly devastating
12:05to to those both of those places. and uh
12:08and Uripides like a famous example that
12:11I think is actually quite relevant to
12:13what how this current moment of
12:16reception is happening is the the play
12:18the Trojan women would be a great
12:20example. So when Uripides created this
12:23play which I highly recommend to people
12:24and actually there's an amazing film
12:26version on YouTube like for free with
12:29Katherine Heppern as as Hecuba like it's
12:31an incred that's that's actually one of
12:33my favorite movies of all time just so
12:35people want to sort of see this and um
12:39and so the the story that he's focused
12:41on is that it's okay the sack of Troy
12:44has happened and now it's it's a story
12:47told from the perspective of the women
12:49who are now going to be enslaved and you
12:52know their husbands are being killed and
12:54they're all going to be enslaved. An
12:56infant Aionx who is the sort of child of
12:59Hector and Andramaki and people might
13:01remember in the Ilia there's a super
13:03sweet moment with him that happens right
13:05in the middle of all that battle. Uh
13:07he's going to be killed. This infant is
13:09going to be killed. Um, so it's it's
13:11like so so he's taking a story that has
13:14been told and he's really emphasizing it
13:16and he's doing something that you can do
13:18in a play that you can't do in a poem
13:21which is like give interiority to lots
13:23of characters, right? Like let see it
13:25from another perspective. And so um so
13:28it's a really hard film to watch. It's a
13:31tragedy. You're you're watching just
13:32like this horrible thing. And at the
13:35same time, what had just happened when
13:36Uripides staged that play is that there
13:39had just been this terrible war crime
13:42committed by the Athenians against the
13:44people of Mos. The Malians were
13:47decidedly neutral, but the Athenians
13:49walked in, killed all the men, and
13:51enslaved all the women. So, you can see
13:53how it's a it's it's connecting the myth
13:56to the moment. Um, and you know, that's
13:59what we mean by reception. And so, uh,
14:02this will keep happening along the way,
14:03right? And the Virgil's going to connect
14:06the Aniad and the meta and and Avid's
14:09going to do the metamorphoses and ways
14:11of supporting the Roman project when it
14:13gets there. So, and this just keeps on
14:16happening along the way. And I think one
14:18of the beauties of it again is there's
14:21authoral intention like in what the
14:23author is trying to do, but there's also
14:26cultural conditions that are applying in
14:28that situation that make it possible for
14:31the myth to arrive in a certain way. And
14:33one of the big questions with reception
14:35is always this question of you know that
14:38you at one level the author controls the
14:41narrative but at another level this is
14:43myth and it will Trojan horse like what
14:46John said like it will slip in it will
14:49shift things you know it will appear. Um
14:52but for us as myth people this is always
14:54a meaningful moment because it's just we
14:56get to learn the story in new ways. Um,
14:59and you know, and I think that
15:01experience with the Trojan women and
15:02the, you know, that's situated very much
15:04where this movie situates. So, meaning
15:07at the end of the in many ways, this
15:09movie to me is more of a Iliad uh Iliad
15:142 than it is an Odyssey, but we can get
15:16to that. But that's that's what comes to
15:18mind for me is just in terms of helping
15:20people, you know, think about this.
15:23>> Yeah, that's great. And you're right
15:24that
15:26so much of the what has turned out to be
15:29the Odyssey film is about the Iliad. And
15:33I think one in a similar way, we are
15:35living in a time of of many war crimes
15:39showing up in in current events. And
15:40that's been happening all through this
15:42recent time period. I forget exactly
15:44when they first started making this
15:45film, but there was certainly stuff like
15:47that happening
15:48as they were going into making this film
15:51as well as at this time of the film
15:54being released. And I think one of the
15:56things that that's obvious to all of us
15:58seeing the film that that really stood
16:00out that was an obvious focus of the
16:03film and while it's it is in the context
16:06of the Iliad and the Odyssey, it's not
16:09done so overtly is this Bronze Age
16:11collapse focus is uh what are some of
16:15the things that stood out to you about
16:17about the the way it's so focused on
16:19this this Bronze Age collapse?
16:21>> You want to go Jason?
16:22>> I was surprised. Uh I was actually
16:24surprised at that um that
16:27contextualization. I I didn't uh I
16:30wouldn't have expected that. Uh you know
16:34I it's not you know that certainly the
16:36Bronze Age collapse is not literally
16:38narrated in the in the stories that this
16:41is coming from. Uh we don't see any sort
16:44of self-consciousness among the
16:46characters about what might we be doing
16:49you know in the end. Um, and so I do
16:52think it was a really meaning thingful
16:54thing. I I guess people know listening
16:56will know what the Bronze Age collapse
16:58is, but I'm not sure. Maybe.
17:00>> Yeah, you should. That would be great to
17:02tell say a little bit about it. Yeah.
17:04>> Yeah. You know, so so one of the things
17:06so the the Odyssey is is really set uh
17:10in a period of Greece. It's the Masonian
17:12period. Uh it is the period of pallet
17:15palace culture. Um and it is uh it is
17:19very um sophisticated and it's a time
17:22when actually there was a massive amount
17:24of of interreation in the Mediterranean
17:27between different cultures. It was also
17:29a very literary period. It had its own
17:32language linear a linear b uh that were
17:35going on and uh and it was a really
17:38there's a lot of trade going on. It was
17:40it was quite sophisticated and alive and
17:42the Odyssey in the Iliad Homer they are
17:45set in that period that's not when it
17:48was written but that's when it's set and
17:51then uh for mysterious reasons that
17:54aren't fully understood even now and
17:56there's lots of competing explanations
17:58but somehow that all started to degrade
18:01it all started to fall apart and the and
18:04and the the Greek culture in particular
18:06really lost its sophistication lost its
18:09rich in language. Um it it moved into
18:12what we often call the dark age for the
18:14in a historical sense. Um that went on
18:18uh for you know about four century quite
18:21a while. And uh and so you you were back
18:24to oral storytelling which which had
18:26never died but but really that's how
18:28this would would go. Um and uh and it's
18:32a period that we don't have many records
18:34from. So sometimes that said that
18:37nowadays people are looking a lot at
18:38climate collapse and how that had a role
18:40in the moment. Uh they were looking at
18:43that the sea peoples and we'll come back
18:45to that because that's literally named
18:46in this movie. Um that there were these
18:49mysterious people who were coming and
18:51sacking places and just undoing chaos
18:53bringingers basically. Um, so there's
18:55that dead period and then actually right
18:58just right at Homer and Hessiad, the
19:00earliest in our tradition, the Greek
19:03alphabet that we know comes into being
19:05and within 50 years of it coming into
19:07being, you've got Homer and Hess coming
19:09on the scene and telling the story of
19:12the Iliad and the Odyssey that's set
19:14back there. So that collapse, that
19:16Bronze Age collapse, uh, is, I mean,
19:19it's it's it's the central trauma of the
19:21ancient world in that way, right? it
19:23it's like and and a whole different
19:25world and then we'll get to you know the
19:27classical age and all those things will
19:29happen but yeah that's that's the
19:31collapse and um so I was surprised that
19:34that was that historical piece was being
19:37woven in and actually that the Iliad and
19:41the Odyssey but more the Iliad were
19:43being used as a description of you know
19:46in quotes what went wrong. Um so uh so I
19:51was surprised by that. I have some more
19:53thoughts about it, but I'll I'll say it.
19:55I think I've said enough at the moment
19:57just to give some context for this.
19:59>> Yeah, but that's important that so
20:00essentially and there's there's other
20:03kingdoms. The um Egypt is involved
20:06there. Is it the Hittites or am I
20:10getting
20:11Yeah.
20:12And so there all these really seemingly
20:17advanced in different ways
20:18civilizations, all these networks and
20:20this great collapse occurs. And then
20:22basically Homer is emerging out of those
20:25in Greece. There's like the dark ages
20:27and that's what when we're coming out of
20:30those dark ages, that's where the story
20:31appears essentially.
20:32>> And they're telling us of the world that
20:35passed, the world that was, right?
20:36there. Palmer's telling us of the world
20:38that was and then
20:40>> telling us even further in the sense of
20:42you know the gods and and all of that
20:44like how you know but but really in a
20:47way writing of a world that would have
20:49been very uh idealized to them at that m
20:52you know palace culture was not yet
20:54really dominant again and so it's
20:57remembering the golden age in a way
20:59right it's or not literally actually we
21:01remembering the iron age but and the
21:03hero's age but but also in Hessia he'll
21:06remember even back for
21:09>> well it really was a kind of golden age.
21:11I mean for throughout history since this
21:13time uh every major not every but many
21:16major cultures tried to position
21:18themselves as inheritors of Troy. Um
21:21Rome did it you know we see that they
21:23tried to make themselves come from you
21:25know refugees from Troy. even uh the the
21:28Norse peoples, right? Snor Snory
21:30Sterlesen from Iceland uh when he wrote
21:33down the Norse myths, he said, "Oh, our
21:35gods come from Troy." Uh just like a
21:37little one note, oneline detail in the
21:39whole thing we have for our only source
21:41of Norse mythology or main source. Um so
21:44it's fascinating that Troy does sort of
21:46represent this lost golden age when
21:47things were better. um and how cultures
21:49have tried to reconnect to that, you
21:51know, and so I think we need to ask
21:52ourselves why, if this isn't really
21:55present in the Odyssey and certainly not
21:57literally present in the Odyssey poem,
22:00why did Christopher Nolan insist on
22:02making it the focus of this piece,
22:05right? Um maybe that's a good place to
22:06jump in and start talking about the
22:08movie a little bit.
22:10>> Yeah. So how I mean there's definitely
22:12it speaks to I mean one thing that we
22:13were all talking about is I mean
22:15something that's definitely out there in
22:17the culture and you see it even in the
22:19astrology community when people are
22:21talking about what's going on with
22:22different transits a lot of people are
22:25really focused on a somewhat apocalyptic
22:28collapse narrative and talking about
22:31collapse. We're headed to a collapse.
22:34It's not very um necessarily optimistic
22:37about how to go to a better place and
22:40create a better world and seemingly I
22:44don't know if people really are resigned
22:46to this uh collapse narrative but it's
22:50definitely something that's there. It's
22:51that's a spirit of the times moment that
22:54we're in. How do you feel that that the
22:57film I mean I know we're talking about
22:59it but the actual impression of the film
23:01how does how do you think that is really
23:03meeting this this right now? [snorts]
23:06>> Yeah. Um well to pick up on one of the
23:08threads Jason mentioned about how like
23:10the the tragedians the the dramatists
23:13the plays were a new medium to explore
23:16myth in but it it gave you the ability
23:18to have a little more interiority. um to
23:21take that forward into to cinema. You
23:23know, one of the things that I was
23:25trying to get people to think about um
23:27in one of my presentations was like mi
23:29movies are just inherently a more
23:31literal medium, right? You see what is
23:34on the screen, right? And of course
23:35there's room for interpretation and and
23:37actually I think Christopher Nolan
23:38typically is good at that. He's good at
23:40the ambiguity. He's good at the layers.
23:42He's good at the time jumping. And he
23:44his movies maybe leave more room for
23:45interpretation than most. But inherently
23:48cinema is you watch the same movie 10
23:50times, you always get the same thing.
23:52Even the plays weren't quite like that,
23:54right? And so there's this move toward
23:56the literal, which is actually kind of
23:58an interesting commentary on the whole
24:00thing anyway, but we'll leave that
24:01aside. Um, you know, but I think his
24:03reason for including it and featuring it
24:06and maybe even making it the center
24:07point for everything, for Odysius's
24:09inner drama, for his quest, for his
24:11resolution, if there is one, it
24:13definitely seems to be sort of
24:16drawing us in to ask questions about
24:18this collapse. Is there a way out of it?
24:22Right? Like, what is the nature of our
24:23collapse? Did we do it to ourselves,
24:25modern-day people, our culture? I think
24:27he's trying to make us face these things
24:29and maybe provide pointers to a
24:33solution, but I think that's where it
24:35gets kind of interesting because I I you
24:38know, I'd like to hear your thoughts on
24:39this, Jason, but I think I think you're
24:42kind of saying like it's like the Iliad
24:432. Like he shows us the problem in
24:45spectacular fashion. Um, he makes us
24:48face the problem face to face, look it
24:51right in the eye, but it doesn't
24:53necessarily give us a way back home that
24:55we can really relate to or a way forward
24:58that we can really embody and carry
25:00forward after seeing this story. So, it
25:02might be an amazing blockbuster, but
25:04does it have that sort of therapeutic
25:06soul nurturing aspect of myth? That I
25:09think is maybe the question that's on
25:10the table for us today. um
25:14>> well of myth then especially of the
25:16Odyssey right you know the Odyssey is in
25:19many ways it's a response to the events
25:22of the Iliad and it offers a what I
25:25would think of as a spiritual journey we
25:27use that word odyssey that way that
25:29that's that's the word we use in our
25:31language and you know that comes from
25:34this man's name uh and and it has a lot
25:36to do with bearing pain you know that is
25:39the name itself is about suffering
25:41uffing. Um it's it's ambiguous about
25:44whether he's doing the suffering or he's
25:46bringing the suffering to others. I
25:48think both are present. Um he
25:50notoriously speaks in the middle voice,
25:52neither active voice nor passive voice.
25:55So he's always kind of acting but also
25:57being acted upon. Um but the Odyssey to
26:00me is is is a in many ways a psychic
26:04medicine to the events of the Iliad. And
26:07for me that's that's not what happened
26:09in this film. And that's why I called it
26:11Iliad 2. Um, and I think I would start
26:14with like the,
26:17you know, so, so yeah, I I agree with
26:19you, Gray, that that that the the
26:21present moment that we're in, the
26:24collapse narrative is alive and well,
26:26more so. I mean, I think it's the only
26:28narrative I ever hear is that
26:29everything's going to hell. Everybody's
26:31got their different explanations for
26:34>> and their different, you know, cat what
26:37catastrophe means to them, you know. Um,
26:40but the basic thing I see us in is a
26:42massive level of that. And I do think
26:45the the movie is is like is is is
26:48similarly dominated by that notion that
26:51like everything has has gone away and
26:54there will now be no coherence
26:56available. And so, but the the diagnosis
27:00is also given in that movie, right? The
27:02diagnosis is we've disobeyed Zeus's law.
27:04Zeus's law, which I I remember when you
27:06first saw it, you said to me, I think I
27:08heard that phrase like 30 times within
27:10the first 30 minutes or something.
27:12>> Yeah. They're they're really trying to
27:13get that that's we want to Yeah, let's
27:16go there. So, Zenia, what they're called
27:18Zeus's law, obviously, the way people
27:21write film scripts and an unfortunate
27:24thing that's happened in Hollywood over
27:25the years is is lots of people have
27:27saturized this. It's gotten more and
27:29more ridiculous with the way scripts try
27:34to make sure you're understanding the
27:35plot, the sign of a plot line by just
27:37repeating it. But like, yeah, that was
27:39hammered almost every scene. Somebody
27:42went like, it's Zeus's law and this so
27:45Zenia is huge. So, yeah.
27:48>> Yeah. I go ahead
27:50>> with what it actually means. I'd like to
27:52hear you talk a little more too about
27:53what it what it really what it what we
27:55think it really means back then and how
27:57it was actually portrayed in the film
27:59and how that relates to all of this.
28:00Yeah. Yeah. This is one of the moments
28:03where for me the the exigencies of the
28:06moment uh kill the concept completely
28:09and turn it into something else all
28:11altogether. And what I mean by that is
28:14that so Zeus's law is this is referring
28:17to this this uh
28:21notion of Zenia. I'm having trouble
28:23thinking what to call Zenia as a
28:25category. Um but uh and Zenia involves
28:29guest host relations and it involves
28:31reciprocity. So the movie's definition
28:34of Zenia is basically do unto others and
28:37they literally say this one time, do
28:39unto others as they would do unto you.
28:41Well, that's not Zenia. That's the
28:43golden rule from Christianity. And so,
28:45this is a great example where in the
28:47interest of accessibility perhaps or I
28:49don't know the reasons for this. I think
28:51what you said is also the reason, but
28:54it's we're given an incredibly
28:56simplified version of what this means.
28:58It basically just means be nice to
28:59strangers. You know, that that that's
29:01your basic job according to this movie
29:04and that they're not being nice and that
29:06that's why everything's gone falling
29:07apart. Um, for me this is really a huge
29:11miss because Zenia is a really complex
29:16formulation of social relations. It's
29:18really a way of understanding how do we
29:21all fit together and what do we need to
29:23do for that to work well. It's an
29:26understanding that we live in in a
29:27really precarious and fragile world.
29:29We're little tiny humans. I mean this
29:31the Greeks are a seafaring people like
29:34they are so aware of how small they are
29:37and this and and we see a moment of that
29:39when they're on the boat right and
29:40Poseidon and Zeus are having their way.
29:42Um but it's based on the notion of of
29:45like this civilization is an
29:47accomplishment like it's it's an
29:49accomplishment in the face of terrible
29:50odds of how precarious things are how
29:53fragile it all is. So you definitely
29:56need to know that you can count on some
29:58things like if you get washed up
30:00somewhere, you need to know that people
30:02will receive you in a certain way. And
30:04so it's it's a form of intelligence.
30:06It's a social and ecological
30:08intelligence of where do you fit in the
30:10system and how do you perform your
30:13relations so that this this very fragile
30:16project called civilization can actually
30:18operate. Um, that's very different than
30:21the golden rule about which is very
30:24personal like it's very of the moment
30:26like I'll be nice to you, you know, I I
30:28want to treat you well. It doesn't have
30:30any so social or ecological intelligence
30:33in it. It's just a very like basic
30:36thing. And and if the idea is that
30:38somehow that's the thing that's missing
30:40and that's the thing that I don't know
30:41if there's a proposal here that that
30:43would have saved us, it would not. It's
30:45it's it's like putting the Zenia down to
30:48this is is very similar to me and
30:50believing that oh let's just be kind to
30:52each other and everything will get
30:53better. That is as naive as the idea
30:55that you should do your personal
30:57recycling and that that will stop the
30:59corporate rape of the earth. Like that
31:01that's insane to me and that's so
31:03missing. There's no politics in that.
31:05There's only psychology in that. There's
31:07only like you know be you know this
31:09thing but but there's no class
31:11consciousness like Greeks have a high
31:12degree of of class. I'm not speaking in
31:14a Marxist way, although that term comes
31:16from there, but I'm speaking about
31:18knowing where you're situated and having
31:20a sense of the situatedness of
31:22everything. That's social intelligence.
31:24That that is what Zenia is. It's it's
31:27it's really a much bigger thing than
31:29just be nice to people. Um, but here we
31:31get and again this is a
31:33Christianization. I mean, it really is a
31:35Christianization. Like that language is
31:36straight out of that tradition. And the
31:39reason that's really problematic for me
31:41is that if we are being shown that this
31:44is collapse and it's also mirrors our
31:46collapse, then if if we're being given
31:49this idea that it's just that we're not
31:50nice enough to each other anymore, then
31:53that that won't that's not going to
31:55address things from my perspective like
31:57that. Zenia is much more of a political
32:00sociological intelligence, ecological
32:03intelligence um that's based on
32:05procarity and fragility like like we
32:08need to do these things in order to have
32:11the basic operations of society. Um so
32:15that's been on my mind quite a bit is
32:17that Zeus's law got really simplified
32:19here.
32:21>> Yeah. And and and if I can throw in a
32:22couple of things, I I I think the
32:24instinct to to work in Zenia, Zeus's law
32:27as definitely related to the collapse,
32:30the issue, and maybe even as part of the
32:32solution would have been successful had
32:35it not been so watered down. And I think
32:37you could say that like the golden rule
32:39does not encompass Zenia, but Zenia
32:41probably does encompass the golden rule
32:43in some form, you know, and and my focus
32:45on mythology and philosophy, you know,
32:48there's like a cosmic aspect to Zenia. I
32:50mean astrologers will understand this.
32:51It's sort of a jupitarian faith in the
32:54way things are and co-creating with it
32:56and upholding that higher principle. Um
32:59even evolutionarily right we they've
33:00done studies that show that chimpanzeee
33:02tribes the king who gives food freely to
33:06children and women and protects people
33:08and is not violent runs the tribe for a
33:11long time. The king who's violent and
33:13controlling gets killed almost
33:14immediately. Like this this is not just
33:17a nice idea from an ancient culture. It
33:19really is at the essence of how things
33:21work, but we have to co-create with it
33:23and uphold it. Um, and I think that's a
33:26lot of nuance to cram into a three-hour
33:28movie, but I think it's it's it's
33:30>> well, but it wouldn't be if if the
33:32choice were made. I mean, these are
33:34>> of course. No, no, I I am not defending
33:35it. I I do agree with you. It was way
33:37watered down and missed the point. Um,
33:39but my hope, I guess, is that maybe
33:41people will come away and be like, "Hey,
33:42what is Zeus's law? Maybe I'll research
33:44that." And, you know, if even a few
33:46people do that, that's a win, right?
33:48[laughter]
33:50Well, you know, unfortunately, they're
33:51going to get the same watered down
33:52version unless they look really hard
33:55because partly like it's there's no
33:56complexity that, you know, there was a
33:58lot of complexity like again we're back
34:01in palace culture, right? So, so there's
34:03complexities to social organization.
34:06It's and they're operating with a
34:08complex formulation of their society,
34:10which is exactly what I don't think we
34:13really have here. I don't think people
34:14are thinking in that way. Um, and that's
34:17the missing piece for me that that that
34:19that that is also related to the overall
34:22issue with this film for me, which is
34:24that like none of the characters have
34:26complexities that I can find. And and
34:28and you need to you would need to show
34:31some complexity to character if you want
34:33to help understand how they're making
34:35their decisions about how to be with
34:38each other, right? It's like there's
34:39there's there's much more going into
34:41these choices than just be nice to
34:43strangers.
34:45Well, and that is so how this does show
34:47up is I think it's a lot from the
34:49standpoint that
34:52which which I think relates to what
34:54you're saying about the golden rule. So
34:55someone just in this case it's like
34:58literally washing ashore or or somebody
35:00just shows up a complete stranger that
35:03you would bring them inside, you would
35:06bathe them, you would feed them, you
35:08would welcome them, you would take care
35:11of them. So that that is a is something
35:14that is is worked in and I think
35:17audiences would watch and kind of pick
35:19up that's what they're talking about
35:22with Zeus's law. There's they also
35:24introduce the idea well this could be a
35:26god in disguise
35:29and which I guess that's got a bit of a
35:32sort of like punishment
35:35>> Christianization element too that that's
35:38also worked into like oh this well you
35:40should do this because it could it could
35:41be a god in disguise which is a little
35:43bit lacking that
35:45>> complexity like you're you're talking
35:47about um looking at more eologically and
35:50sociologically
35:51and another element
35:53which is sort of seems to be the the
35:56bigger piece because we're also talking
35:57about these collapse narratives.
35:59something that seems very obvious that
36:02most audiences are taking in considering
36:04the body of work of Christopher Nolan
36:08and the high success and high reception
36:11of the Oppenheimer film which was his
36:13last big release and how that's about
36:15the atomic bomb the nuclear bombs and
36:18dropping the atomic bomb and Oenheimer
36:20developing it and then dealing with the
36:22repercussions of that and that is such a
36:25huge moment
36:27that interestingly has also come into
36:30the astrological time period because
36:32there are some things from that time
36:34period people are linking to now with
36:36what was going on in that World War II
36:38era. Actually, the we don't need to get
36:40into this, but the Bronze Age collapse
36:41has a has a bunch of stuff going on in
36:43that time period that also relates to
36:45now, interestingly. So, it's all kind of
36:47woven together. Um, and in a way that
36:50Oppenheimer, you know, so what what we
36:53did there with developing that that
36:55weapon technology and what Oppenheimer
36:58carries forward with that guilt and how
37:01that's leading to the moment we're in
37:02now. There seems to also be and it seems
37:05also linked in with Zenia in that that's
37:07the Trojan horse. The Trojan horse is
37:10the bomb and Odysius being like
37:13Oenheimer. um whether that's that just
37:15seems to me some way I'm at least seeing
37:18that out there that seems to be a way
37:19one way it's being
37:22uh received and part of that aspect is
37:25that relative to Athena the Trojan horse
37:30is being received by the Trojans as well
37:34we have a common deity we both honor
37:36Athena they're leaving they're offering
37:39this we're we're going to welcome this
37:41gift into our city
37:45to in this mutual honoring of her. And
37:49then there is the the complete
37:52devastation and um terror of this
37:56complete sacking and you know massacring
37:58of the people there which includes the
38:01Athena statue being beheaded
38:05and the actress Zenaia also showing up
38:08you know in that film at that moment um
38:11looking like she's going to also be
38:13beheaded or or or something to that
38:15effect. So yeah, those are that's how it
38:19actually does come across. You know, how
38:20how do you feel? What any thoughts you
38:22all have about just that in terms of
38:24that's that's to me at least some of the
38:26ways that that Zeno is showing up as an
38:30underlying
38:32theme, you know?
38:34>> Yeah. I go ahead, John. Yeah.
38:37>> Oh, I was gonna say I do think that was
38:38one of the more powerful moments in the
38:40movie for sure. I mean, they've been
38:41sprinkling in these scenes from Troy the
38:43whole time, and then at the end, you see
38:45just the absolute scope of the horrible
38:47devastation and the raping and the
38:48pillaging and the burning and, you know,
38:50the beheading of the statue and the
38:52girl. And, you know, if you do a
38:54psychological reading, you can
38:55absolutely understand why Zena was
38:58Odysius's Athena. Um, you know, because
39:01she was in a sense maybe haunting him.
39:03Right now, you know, we're going to talk
39:05a little bit about the presence of the
39:07gods in the movie and how we might want
39:08to wrestle with that. Um, but I just
39:10thought that was a super powerful thing.
39:12And
39:14I think you're right, like it the Zenia
39:18itself is not the true Zenia is not
39:22strongly represented in this film, but I
39:24kind of wonder if if it if it's enough
39:26of a if it's not close enough. It's not,
39:28but better than nothing. I don't know.
39:31Maybe that's a way to look at it. Jason,
39:32what do you think? Well, I I don't think
39:34it's better than nothing if I'm honest
39:36because I think it is a it it and I
39:39don't want to go too much because that's
39:40more of much my philosophy, but I will
39:43say that I think it is I think that the
39:45error is to make things personal rather
39:48than political and sociological and
39:50ecological. And so this is just a
39:52classic moment of doing that where if
39:54you're just a nice if you're n if we
39:55just be nice to each other, it would all
39:57work out. But actually, I don't think
39:59that's that that's a that's an operable
40:01reality. Um, so I think it's actually a
40:04problem because it it's it sets us up to
40:06think that, you know, that's the thing.
40:08But anyhow, what I would also say is
40:10that I'm glad we've gone here to the
40:12horse because and to the desecration of
40:15the palladium because I think that is
40:17really um I I really I don't I didn't
40:20make this link to the Oppenheimer film.
40:23I I'm not as deep in the UA of uh of
40:26this director, but what I could say is
40:28that I do I I definitely think it's
40:30being set as that moment like the moment
40:32when nothing will ever be the same
40:34again.
40:35>> And and I think that's a enduring thing
40:37of Troy all the way through, right? Like
40:39all meaning in all the receptions of the
40:41story, Troy by all accounts, the Trojans
40:45were the most pious people, right? They
40:47loved they loved the gods. They were
40:49doing the right things. It was just like
40:52not exactly a paradise, but it was a
40:54very good example of a of a functional
40:57polus that was centered on the gods and
41:01um and yet this this thing was done,
41:03right? And and this unimaginable
41:05desecration and unimaginable to, you
41:08know, for the for these things to
41:09happen. And my my feeling is that that
41:13job the the movie has done a great job
41:16of of showing that. But if it's but
41:19that's the Iliad, you know, that's
41:21that's that that's the Iliad. And what
41:24it has not done is actually done the
41:27medicine that the Odyssey represents in
41:29response to them this situation.
41:32Instead, the Odyssey is just more Iliad
41:34from my like the events are just more
41:36battles, more moments. And it actually
41:38makes it sound like they're still doing
41:40the wrong thing in the Odyssey. Like
41:43they're still doing that. And that's a
41:45real question for me. Like I because I
41:47think the power of the Odyssey is
41:49actually okay. It's never going to be
41:52the same again. How do we work with
41:54that? Like how what do we do with that?
41:56The movie offers nothing of that. Like
41:59to me it just leaves us in collapse and
42:02a very strange ending that we're going
42:04to go and now we're going to go do the
42:06medicine in the west with Oianis. Uh
42:09we're going to go do that there. But the
42:12Odyssey proposes that that all those
42:14other scenes are the medicine that they
42:16are actually the way that you do this.
42:19And so for me it's really um and I do
42:22know some of his movies and I think they
42:24almost always leave us there like
42:26they're just apocalyptic like you know
42:28it's all crime everywhere in Batman and
42:30it's the end of the world with
42:32Oppenheimer and it's just another moment
42:34of being told yeah we're basically just
42:36totally [ __ ] Um, and I think that is
42:39an abuse of the Odyssey in this way.
42:41Like I think that's that is totally not
42:44letting the Odyssey be what it actually
42:46is. Um, and and that's hugely
42:48problematic to me. Um, because I don't I
42:51don't think there's any service done by
42:53simply saying, "Yeah, it's pretty much
42:54fucked."
42:56>> I agree with you. Um, but I think the
42:59Odyssey itself never comes out and says
43:01these things. You have to feel them and
43:02interpret them to sort of see what
43:05potential medicine there might be. Um,
43:08and so are you saying that the the way
43:09the different Odyssey beats are
43:12portrayed in the movie are too narrow?
43:14They don't allow for that same wonder,
43:16you know, cuz like obviously the Cyclops
43:18scene in the Odyssey poem doesn't tell
43:20you, hey, this is Odysius's war guilt
43:22manifested as a monster or this is his
43:24PTSD rear. Like, you know, those are
43:26valid interpretations. I know you're not
43:27saying anything that literal, of course,
43:29and nor would I, but um you know, but I
43:32I'm wondering like is there room for
43:34that level of openness and
43:36interpretation even with what Nolan
43:39gives us in the film? Um or is it just a
43:42little too closed down? Uh because I
43:44don't I'm not sure the message is
43:45everything is [ __ ] because if that was
43:47the message, Odysius wouldn't have made
43:48it home, right? And so I I'm just
43:51wondering if there's a wrinkle, you
43:53know, like there's got to be something.
43:55And whether it was successful or not, I
43:56don't think Nolan was trying to say,
43:58"You're just [ __ ] and that's it." I do
44:00think there is something that he was at
44:02least trying to point to. Whether or not
44:04it's successful, we can talk about, but
44:06do you have any sense for that or do you
44:07just think, "Nah, I'm I'm just curious."
44:10And Gray, I'd love to hear your
44:11thoughts, too.
44:13>> I I wouldn't speculate on I don't really
44:15care what Nolan's intention was.
44:18[laughter]
44:18Um but but I I because I don't think
44:20that that's really what makes the movie
44:22what it is. Um, I I I would say that uh
44:28that that that time will tell what
44:32people do with these different moments
44:34in the story. But but what I will say is
44:37that because so this is kind of goes to
44:39the why I think this is also Iliad 2 a
44:42little bit is that this is a very plot
44:46focused movie, not a character focused
44:48movie. And that is what makes it
44:50different than the Odyssey. Like that
44:53that plot is the main focus of this
44:55movie. It can't help but be when you're
44:57trying to do so many actions. You're
44:59trying to have so many encounters, so
45:01many things. And this is and this is
45:02again a moment of reception because we
45:05certainly have action orientation is
45:07what gets you there in the theater is
45:09what gets you the blockbuster or what do
45:11you call blockbuster movie or at least
45:12that type of blockbuster movie. There
45:14are character-based ones of course, but
45:16but I think that one of the things that
45:18is most difficult about this story for
45:20me is that the complexities of the
45:23characters are almost all flattened
45:26beyond recognition to me. Uh you know
45:29that Odysius, we don't get the
45:30complexity of his psychology. I don't
45:33think we see uh into him. I don't think
45:36he's particularly transparent with all
45:38of his complexities. He's a complicated
45:40man to use Emily Wilson's thing or a man
45:42of twists and turns to say Fagel's
45:44thing. You know, he he's he's clever.
45:47He's hilarious. He's funny. He trolls
45:49people. We don't see much of any of
45:51that. I know there's exceptions that
45:54he's been really flattened. Penelope,
45:57right? Uh Penelope is has a subtle
45:59intelligence. Talk about she has
46:01something called Metis. She and Odysius
46:03both have something called metis in
46:05Greece, which is like a cunning
46:06intelligence, a deep wisdom, a deep
46:09capacity to play with the structures.
46:12Again, we're back to intelligence, which
46:14is what's so missing. But this
46:15Penelopey, I've seen none of that in
46:17her. Like, we don't see we don't even
46:19understand really what is the
46:21sophistication of her trick with the
46:22suitors. Um, Helen, Clyde Nestra, I
46:26don't even know why Clyde Nestra had to
46:28come in, but we'll stay with Helen.
46:30Helen is so sophisticated in the
46:32audience. She's so masterful in her in
46:35what how she speaks and what she does
46:37and what she's able to get people to
46:39say, how she's practically a therapist
46:42for Tamicus when he comes and cries and
46:44she administers these medicines. This
46:47Helen is barely has a role at all is
46:50completely flattened and and I would we
46:52could just keep going down the line like
46:54like the flat and the the cost of that
46:57is is that you're not getting a story
47:00that is about a personal odyssey or
47:02about a maturation. You can't if you
47:05don't have character developed then you
47:07can't show how character develops like
47:09so instead you get plot. You get we met
47:12this, we met that, we met this, we met
47:14that. You get a lot of plot but not a
47:17lot of character and therefore not a lot
47:18of soul. And that's different from the
47:20Odyssey. Like that's profoundly
47:22different. The Odyssey is slow. It is
47:25not fastpaced. It is a slow thing.
47:28Things get told and retold in different
47:30ways. Uh the the Iliad has a lot of
47:33action action action. Uh but the the the
47:36Odyssey is actually much more of an
47:39integrative text. It has a whole
47:40different thing. And again, that would
47:42be such an interesting service to our
47:44moment to sort of start with collapse
47:47just like the Odyssey does. Start with
47:49collapse and then say what that's that's
47:52what's in this story is is the is the is
47:54the medicine. But here, I think it's
47:56been rendered into plot event, plot
47:58event, monster encounter, monster
48:00encounter. Now, I I'm speaking more
48:02strongly than I actually feel this, but
48:04I'm just wanting to really clarify this
48:06way of thinking about it. I I do think
48:08there are moments and we I know we're
48:10going to talk about them, but I want to
48:11name this piece that for me there's just
48:13a real miss in terms of what the Odyssey
48:17is. It's not just plot. It's not just
48:20event event.
48:23>> Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I think that's
48:25probably one of the reasons why The
48:27Odyssey was such a is what it is, you
48:29know, and people talking about maybe
48:31like the greatest story because
48:34even I remember like in the 1990s people
48:36thinking, "Oh, wow. Quinn Tarantino is
48:38doing this like nonlinear storytelling,
48:40which I never actually thought was that
48:42impressive for doing that, but but and
48:45Nolan's known for nonlinear
48:46storytelling. I mean, I love nonlinear
48:49storytelling. Um, I think it's a and I
48:52don't know if the Odyssey is really like
48:54the one of the first ones we have of it,
48:56but it's something that's a really just
48:57a fascinating element of
49:00the original Odyssey that it is in this
49:02very um nonlinear way. And in that way,
49:07it, you know, it's set up as being
49:10something that people would identify as
49:11this is a film Christopher Nolan can
49:14really do because he loves to work in
49:16that that style as well. And I do think
49:20there was a choice made. This is the
49:22grandest film ever made on it's so it
49:25was so expensive.
49:27So at so much scale they to if they're
49:31even going to break even, it has to be a
49:33massive blockbuster. So there was a
49:36clear attempt to like you're saying make
49:39this like a blockbuster film, make it
49:42plot focused. Um he did come in with a a
49:46very coherent take. Like there's a
49:48definite Chris Nolan take on the Odyssey
49:52that moves you through it. It's a
49:54three-hour film. It just goes by really
49:56quick. Um unlike some of his other films
49:58I've seen where I do feel they sometimes
50:00could drag. Um this doesn't. It's like
50:03it's just moving through. Um and but I
50:07think that's the key question we should
50:09talk about more is like how where does
50:11this leave us? Because like you're
50:13saying, I I agree with you that there's
50:14so much focus on that. The the female
50:17all the female characters were uh really
50:21um disappointing to me in one way or
50:25another. And then I I did note that, you
50:28know, I'm not I don't know all of
50:29Christopher Nolan's work really well,
50:31but looking into it a little bit
50:33afterwards, I was like, "Yeah, I feel
50:34like he that's he's not really known for
50:35that. He's he's not really known for
50:38having complex female characters that
50:40have really great dialogue
50:44with the with the characters and
50:47intimacy and complexity.
50:49So, it's not probably surprising that
50:52that that wasn't there. But that's
50:53that's a a definite major um element
50:57that was missing and I'd like us to talk
50:59more about that. But when you're I think
51:01the the one of the key points you're
51:02making there is where does this leave
51:05us? And I think John what you brought up
51:08earlier about is this a Trojan horse? I
51:10mean that's the actual hope with it is
51:13like because I I agree with you that it
51:16seems like it's almost like at the end
51:18of the story he's going off on this
51:20odyssey. Like at the end of the film,
51:24he and Penelopey are sailing off to the
51:27far west extremes of Ocean where the sun
51:30sets and it's like they're going into
51:32some great mystery initiation in a way
51:35and they're going to honor the dead.
51:36They're going to honor everything and
51:38they're just like literally sailing into
51:40the sunset. Um, and Telmicus is, you
51:46know, bathed in white and the golden
51:49crown. And of all the characters, I
51:52mean, I feel like maybe Tmicus didn't
51:54get again the most like complex
51:58um,
51:59>> I think he's one of the best dialogue,
52:00>> but he was definitely came through and
52:02maybe it was also just like great
52:03casting and Tmicus as being this figure,
52:08he is still honored. So that is
52:10something I do think is left to us. Um
52:13as even um Odysius himself says you know
52:16I forget the exact line but when he when
52:18they recognize each other which by the
52:20way it's reminding me of who did get a
52:22massive backstory
52:24um was Argos the dog. [laughter]
52:27>> I think I think um they knew that
52:30everybody's going to come into this to
52:32wonder is Argos going to show up and not
52:34only does Argos show up there is this
52:36whole massive backstory. Argos is like
52:39all through the film. Um, and that did
52:43deliver. So, that was like, you know, I
52:45think that was one of the heartwarming
52:47moments for everybody that not only, you
52:50know, did Argos make it in there, um,
52:53but was really given a lot of attention.
52:55We even see Argos as a puppy. It's kind
52:58of a kind of amazing. But um when it's I
53:02think it's right at that moment around
53:03there that the Tmicus recognizes him and
53:06they kind of have an exchange and Jesus
53:08is like well if he was able to see you
53:10you know he would see you as a beautiful
53:12wise honored son and so Telmic is to be
53:16this fatherless character who's growing
53:19up feeling abandoned and there are all
53:21these suitors around him who again
53:23they're really playing up how all these
53:25suitors are not in line with um not only
53:30offensive in just personal ways of of
53:33kindness, but they're they're lacking
53:35they've lost connection to the e
53:38ecology. They've lost connection to the
53:40gods. They're not reading very clear
53:42omens and signs. They're not respecting
53:45people. Ticus is in is surrounded by all
53:48of this. So, Telmicus is in this fallen
53:51age. Like, it's almost like showing that
53:53he's already in this age of corruption.
53:54Yet, Tmicus is is shown as like honoring
53:57the old ways. whatever sense of honor
54:00they sort of portray Odysius originally
54:02had in himself living in Ithaca. It's
54:05like Telmicus is clearly embodying that.
54:07Tmicus is you know I when I was watching
54:10it I kind of was hoping at the beginning
54:12that Athena was a mentor but they have
54:14him be like oh mentor you have like the
54:16eyes of Athena and it's almost like
54:18they're letting Telma see that like he
54:21could be honoring the fact that knowing
54:23that Athena could be mentor and and so
54:25the fact that he's going to become the
54:27king the film does leave off that Telmic
54:30is going to be the king and there is
54:32seeming that's the only that's probably
54:34where I could go with like is it leaving
54:36us something cuz It's I almost it's
54:38through the character of Telmicus. I
54:40feel like I be curious if do you John
54:42feel any of that like I'd almost feel
54:45like that's one entry way in that there
54:48are characters that are still trying to
54:51be in this web of relations and we could
54:53imagine Ticus might try to set up a just
54:56kingdom there, you know.
55:00>> Yeah, I think there's so much to say
55:02there, you know, and part of me I do
55:04think Tom Holland did a really good job.
55:05I think he fits Tmicus beautifully. They
55:08changed a lot of things. They left out a
55:09lot of things. And I I think some of
55:11that is, you know, I'm sure Christopher
55:12Nolan at the outset was like, I only
55:14have three hours. Not everyone can have
55:16the same level of development and
55:17interiority as as I would like because I
55:19only have three hours. But I think
55:22Tmicus actually came through, you know,
55:24pretty well all things considered. Um I
55:27think the lesson to some degree is, you
55:30know, when Odysius leaves at the end,
55:31he's going off to honor the dead. That
55:34was another theme that perhaps
55:35heavy-handedly was brought up again and
55:37again and again. Remembering how to
55:39honor the dead. Maybe that's a
55:41commentary on what our culture needs.
55:42Maybe not, right? You know, the this
55:44idea of the return of the king, the
55:46return of the patriarch, the return of
55:48the ordering force, you know,
55:50psychologically, the, you know, stepping
55:53up of the ego, the individuation, I
55:55mean, you know, however we want to look
55:56at it there, all those things are
55:58happening at the end there. And I think
55:59Tmicus is sort of the avatar for a lot
56:02of that. Um, so I think I think there's
56:04something interesting going on there.
56:05And I think he did a really good job,
56:07you know, but like we've been saying, it
56:09doesn't it's not as complete as the
56:10poem, right? It's not as u it's leaving
56:13a lot of things on the table, probably
56:15by necessity, but it still doesn't have
56:17the same punch uh that pieces of the
56:19poem do.
56:22>> Yeah, I I thought I thought that was I
56:24thought Tmicus was the most recognizable
56:27from the Odyssey of all the characters.
56:29I I actually think they did a great job
56:31with that. I I'm on I'm I'm on board
56:33with Tmicus. I thought the father son
56:35piece was was nicely done
56:38>> and and I thought I I actually Yeah, I
56:40suppose it leaves some things out, but
56:42to me it really did let the character
56:44take a shape.
56:45>> Um I wanted to just say something back
56:48to those suitors uh for a moment because
56:51you know you were saying you know the
56:52suitors are not being doing the thing
56:55and that they're not reading the omens
56:57correctly and all that but that's not in
56:59here. You know that's the missing piece.
57:00Like
57:00>> I guess maybe I'm imagining that. Did I
57:02think they did? Didn't Wasn't there some
57:04Zeus lightning at some point and they're
57:06maybe ignoring it? I feel like they
57:07worked a little bit of it in.
57:08>> I don't actually I think they all do
57:10think that's Zeus. But but
57:11>> yeah,
57:12>> reason I'm naming that is it's exactly
57:14the the thing I'm trying to talk about
57:15is that the suitors we basically just
57:17get the idea they're just bad people.
57:19But they're not but in the Odyssey
57:22they're not social they're not socially
57:23ecologically intelligent. You know they
57:26they are stupid. Like there's a
57:27stupidity to them. not just a not
57:31niceness or coarseness to them, you
57:32know, and I think I think that's that's
57:34one of the really important things.
57:36Anyway, I just I that kind of, you know,
57:38stood out to me. And I do want to say
57:40like in a way it is there is fidelity in
57:44the well, what I'm about to say is like
57:47I find the ending of this movie
57:49intensely unfulfilling and unsatisfying.
57:51And I also found the Odyssey's ending. I
57:53mean, the end of the Odyssey has a has
57:56our first moment of of what will later
57:58be called Deosex Machina where, you
58:01know, the suitors have all been
58:02slaughtered and now their families are
58:04upset about it and and there's just a
58:07magical waving of the wand by Athena
58:09that makes them all forget and then
58:11they're just going to carry on. So, it's
58:13quite unsatisfying in that way. It's
58:15again politically unsatisfying. Like
58:17doesn't really give you much to work
58:18with. And I think in this movie too,
58:20like again, basically we've just been
58:23given a lot of exposition of what went
58:25wrong and at the very end there's a
58:27gesture towards what we might do. And I
58:30I think that and the gesture is is
58:32entirely uh you know in sort of cobbled
58:36together loosely from other uh moments
58:39in Epic uh but also invented and you
58:42know quite unsatisfying. Like what does
58:44it even mean? In fact, you could even
58:46see it as a kind of abandonment. Like uh
58:48when I look at that I think yeah well
58:50that's nice for you. You're going to run
58:51off to the sunset after you just ended
58:53the whole world. I mean that would be
58:54like Oppenheimer. I don't know what
58:56Oppenheimer did. I don't know that
58:57story. But you know I don't I wouldn't
59:00call that a particularly pro-social
59:02choice. Um you you're going to leave
59:04your son who's never had a father and
59:06you're going to be there with him for
59:07you know a couple days while you
59:09slaughter the suitors and then you're
59:10going to go into exile and leave him on
59:12his own you know. So you know questions
59:15that we might have but that's uh you
59:18know for me so so I wanted to go can we
59:21go back to something John said earlier
59:25>> because where I saw so and the other
59:27fidelity that I did feel to the text is
59:30the nonlinear storytelling that you said
59:32Gray like I think
59:33>> that obviously that is this person's
59:36genius this director and it was Homer's
59:39genius like I I think nonlinear
59:41storytelling like there are five
59:43timelines running at once at some points
59:45like really like he's on the island,
59:46he's Trojan War, we're in Ithaca, etc.,
59:49etc. And it's like I that really is that
59:52works for me and that feels so odyssey.
59:54So I I would really want to honor that.
59:56That feels so good. Ambiguity is also
1:00:00given sometimes, you know, like Calypso
1:00:02and whether she's manipulating, whether
1:00:05she is trying to help him and it just
1:00:07really takes seven years. I think people
1:00:09watching the movie could come up with
1:00:11many different things and there are lots
1:00:13of ambiguities in the Odyssey itself
1:00:15that way too. So I I did appreciate
1:00:17those. Um and the other thing I was
1:00:20thinking about is that for me the the
1:00:25moments where like like what I look at
1:00:27it is this way like the symbol cannot be
1:00:30disciplined by the author. Like the
1:00:32author can do what they want but the
1:00:33symbol will still find a way to get to
1:00:35you. And I think that's what you're
1:00:37trying to say, John, is that this thing
1:00:40happened and the symbols are here. So
1:00:43they may be able to work their m they
1:00:44may be able to break the narrative
1:00:46structures in order to work with you.
1:00:48And I think that's that's that's that
1:00:50would be my way of hoping people go with
1:00:53the movie. So what I think about with
1:00:55that is that there are some conjured
1:00:58moments that again are uniquely
1:01:00conjurable by the medium. And so for me,
1:01:02for instance, Polifamus, sorry, The
1:01:04Cyclops in the Cave,
1:01:07>> I found that really immersive, really
1:01:10powerful,
1:01:11>> really well done,
1:01:12>> really moving,
1:01:14just just just so evocative. It felt to
1:01:17me like the kind of thing that a person
1:01:19two days later might have a dream about.
1:01:21It felt like something they would feel
1:01:23in their heart. It felt like the the the
1:01:26sympathy they might feel for the Cyclops
1:01:28or for the men. Um those are like the
1:01:32and there were a few tableau like that
1:01:34like Cersei changing the animals right
1:01:36and and and redisguising them like those
1:01:40moments to me are so immersively this is
1:01:44where his the genius of the moment of
1:01:46the filmmaker and also the whole crew
1:01:48you know whatever like that is a filmic
1:01:51moment that can immerse you in a way
1:01:53that's so special that I think your
1:01:56imagination can you can be the
1:01:58emancipated spectator you know, you
1:02:00can't you don't have to be disciplined
1:02:01by this strong, heavy-handed narrative.
1:02:05You open up like, you know, and I I
1:02:08think there are a few of those for sure.
1:02:10For me, those are two of them. Um, I'm
1:02:12sure we we all have some, but I I just
1:02:14was thinking about like that cave is so
1:02:18conjured and it's it's uh it'll stay
1:02:22with me, you know, and and I've read
1:02:24this story a million times in million
1:02:26different ways. And but I so I do think
1:02:30that's where I think the magic could
1:02:32could occur. um you know with again the
1:02:36you have to have the emancipated
1:02:38spectator the the you know who who the
1:02:40soul will do its own watching of this
1:02:42movie whatever he's trying to tell us
1:02:44about mentally you know I I was thinking
1:02:48about that you know when you asked that
1:02:49question
1:02:52>> what about John do you have some other
1:02:53ones that really you like in terms of
1:02:55the fidel maybe more the fidelity to use
1:02:58that word Jason was just using with with
1:03:01the what came what came through strong
1:03:03for Yeah.
1:03:05>> Yeah. Um, absolutely. The Cyclops. I
1:03:07mean, that's going to be in my brain
1:03:09forever, [laughter] you know, like
1:03:11that's it's just such a well done piece
1:03:13of film making. Um, you know, a lot of
1:03:15people were upset that they didn't have
1:03:16the whole nobody sequence. Um, which
1:03:19yeah, you know, I actually heard in an
1:03:20interview he he tried to, it just
1:03:22couldn't fit tonally with what needed to
1:03:24happen. And sure, maybe, you know, um,
1:03:27and so, you know, but I just think it
1:03:30does what it needs to do and it's just
1:03:32super powerful. Um, the almost horror
1:03:35movie like moment when car skillet
1:03:38>> Skila Yeah. just grab someone off the
1:03:41ship. I mean, totally I mean, half the
1:03:43theater jumped, you know, like um that
1:03:45was a really powerful moment. And I
1:03:47think you're right, Jason. Like those
1:03:48little moments
1:03:50>> that is the mythic. What What is What is
1:03:52it that we're describing with those?
1:03:54It's a powerful image that grabs you.
1:03:56That could be a definition for myth. I
1:03:58mean, that's that's,
1:03:59>> you know, maybe those are the things we
1:04:00should be focusing on, you know, because
1:04:02there are a few of them sprinkled out
1:04:03throughout the story. Um, absolutely.
1:04:05The Cersei, you know, pulling the faces
1:04:08of the pig. I mean, unbelievable. Very
1:04:10like unsettling. And, you know, I think
1:04:12I think I mentioned this before, but
1:04:14those are mostly practical effects,
1:04:15which blew my mind. Um, it's not even
1:04:17just all computers. So, um, you know,
1:04:21those are maybe the moments that are the
1:04:23portals into the myth, even if the
1:04:25structure of the movie is a Hollywood
1:04:27blockbuster. And, you know, you know, I
1:04:30I feel for the the mission, right?
1:04:32Christopher Nolan was basically said,
1:04:34we'll give you a bunch of money as long
1:04:36as you can do it in three hours and
1:04:37reach billions of people and make them
1:04:39like it. That's a tough mission, right?
1:04:43The the most complex twisty turny poly
1:04:45tropo story of all time. get it down to
1:04:47three hours and make everyone love it.
1:04:50That's really tough. The fact that there
1:04:52are these portals into myth and these
1:04:54meanings that are at least being pointed
1:04:56to, you know, I I see it as kind of a
1:04:58victory, you know, and I always try to
1:05:00remember like like is this the movie I
1:05:02would have made with, you know, whatever
1:05:06a billion dollars. Like, no, it's not. I
1:05:08would have made a very different Odyssey
1:05:09movie. But I'm also not Christopher
1:05:11Nolan and he's no Homer, but he's
1:05:14probably one of the most regarded
1:05:15filmmakers of all time. Um, so I want to
1:05:19allow I want to assume the best. I want
1:05:22to assume that he is making the changes
1:05:25he's making for a reason. He's aware of
1:05:27the things, you know, that he's leaving
1:05:29out. He's he's he's making these
1:05:30decisions. Yeah, I did feel like
1:05:32Penelopey was flattened. And I I that I
1:05:34sit with that because I think truly the
1:05:36Odyssey, one of the one of my favorite
1:05:38readings of the Odyssey is as a a
1:05:41an encounter with the feminine at every
1:05:43phase of the feminine that's restorative
1:05:46to this, you know, man who fell for the
1:05:48Cleos glory propaganda and made a big
1:05:51mistake and was traumatized and has
1:05:53fallen from grace and is trying to find
1:05:54his way home, but he's unable to do it.
1:05:56And the feminine is the way that he
1:05:58heals that. But through ve several
1:06:00backto back to back to backto-back
1:06:01encounters with all aspects of the
1:06:02feminine, he is eventually able to see
1:06:05the way home. Um, but that I I I wanted
1:06:09more of that. I think I I'm just
1:06:11assuming that when he sat down to make
1:06:13the movie, he was like, "Well, I'm going
1:06:14with this other interpretation." But I
1:06:16don't know. I don't know. Maybe you
1:06:17could have done them all. I agree.
1:06:19>> Getting into his authoral intentions,
1:06:22which I I don't really think are what
1:06:24make those decisions. I think that what
1:06:26makes those decisions is much more what
1:06:28you said earlier about the exigencies of
1:06:31movie production in this cultural moment
1:06:33like and and I I I I think I don't want
1:06:36to really speculate about his intentions
1:06:38and he's notoriously opaque about his
1:06:40intentions but I I think that
1:06:43>> again from my perspective it's not that
1:06:45he made those choices as as it is
1:06:48they're sort of circumstantially
1:06:49prescribed but I would also say that
1:06:52with with these moments that were
1:06:55describing some of these, you know,
1:06:57really wellconjured moments like they
1:07:00are where something is possible. And you
1:07:02said something really meaningful to me
1:07:04like those are moments where he obtains
1:07:05the mythic, right? We leave allegory. We
1:07:08leave like you're supposed to understand
1:07:10that this is the collapse and this is
1:07:12Zeus's law. We leave the like allegory
1:07:15moment and we are in the mythic moment.
1:07:17And I and I think that immersive quality
1:07:20of those moments is part of what does
1:07:22that like where where we there's no
1:07:25interpretation being forced on us by
1:07:27those scenes. I don't think a little bit
1:07:29with Cersei, but but with the Polyphimus
1:07:31scene, I think anybody could walk out of
1:07:33there and have opinions about the
1:07:35Cyclops, have opinions about the men,
1:07:37questions about this, questions about
1:07:39that. It's super open-ended. And even
1:07:42with Cersei, I think it's relatively
1:07:44open-ended. There's a little
1:07:46heavy-handedness, but not much, you
1:07:47know. But it's like to me that's that's
1:07:49when you are in mythic modes in some
1:07:51ways is when it is that that what is
1:07:54occurring is you said that it grabs you
1:07:57is a is a definition of myth. I think I
1:07:59I like that. You know, it's like it
1:08:01brings you into a world. And I felt like
1:08:03that moment there was a lot of what I
1:08:05would call world making that happened in
1:08:07the in those little moments. And I
1:08:09honestly didn't feel that the overall
1:08:11world was was made well. I I didn't feel
1:08:13like we really understood how this all
1:08:15hangs together, but I I have those those
1:08:18moments for me, those immersive moments
1:08:20feel really um they could take you
1:08:23somewhere, you know.
1:08:24>> Yeah.
1:08:25>> Yeah. There are couple You go for it,
1:08:27John.
1:08:28>> Oh, sorry. Just real quick, um I
1:08:29actually think that might be an area
1:08:31that we've been, you know, we've been
1:08:32calling a a moment of fidelity because
1:08:34that's exactly what Homer does, too. We
1:08:36have the framing around it, but then all
1:08:38these big mythic hits right in the
1:08:40middle of Odysius
1:08:43and it's just like this bam bam bam bam
1:08:44like wow. It's the part we all remember
1:08:47when we come away from the Odyssey. Um
1:08:49and I think in that sense Christopher
1:08:51Nolan's choice to sequence it the way he
1:08:54did and have these things as these big
1:08:56mythic moments that pull you in uh out
1:08:58of the framing narrative almost
1:09:00entirely. Um that
1:09:02>> pacing it's a pace. It's a question of
1:09:05pace, right? Because the pacing in the
1:09:07Odyssey, yes, they all happen quickly,
1:09:10but we hear them once told this way,
1:09:12later told to this person, later
1:09:14predicted by Cersei, later predicted by
1:09:16Teresius.
1:09:17>> And pacing is is is like a central
1:09:20question like like if it's accelerated,
1:09:23you can't achieve the characterological
1:09:26shifts and changes happen. But by the
1:09:29pacing, and that's why I say it's the
1:09:30exurgencies of the movie situation,
1:09:32right? like and it's the arrogance of
1:09:34choosing to try to do this whole thing
1:09:36in one film. I mean I there's a certain
1:09:38hubris in in the choice to try to be
1:09:40that ambitious um because you're pac
1:09:43there's no pacing in this movie like
1:09:45it's just next next. That's not how you
1:09:48heal from a war, you know? You you you
1:09:51don't just do trauma trauma trauma
1:09:52trauma. You you you have space and time,
1:09:55right? It it's the I think the one place
1:09:58where the pacing energy is given is with
1:10:00Calypso. Um, that's I was gonna say.
1:10:04Yeah.
1:10:04>> Yeah.
1:10:04>> Yeah. I mean, that's because when you
1:10:06were talking earlier about how does he
1:10:08heal this? And John, you're bringing up
1:10:10the importance of the female characters
1:10:13in the Odyssey. I think that's a part
1:10:16that did come through in the film
1:10:18because and I was mentioning y'all
1:10:21earlier. It almost seems like she Clips
1:10:24is functioning as this like psychedelic
1:10:26therapist in a way cuz there's this
1:10:29combination of the lotus eaters, you
1:10:31know, into that whole sequence and it's
1:10:34clear she's she's fallen in love with
1:10:36him and it's sort of intimated that they
1:10:40probably have this erotic sexual
1:10:41relationship as that's not really shown
1:10:44though in their relationship. And again,
1:10:46that piece is is really completely
1:10:49um missing from the the story with the
1:10:51exception of um I guess a reunion with
1:10:54Penelope.
1:10:55But um
1:10:58Calypso, that seems to be the space
1:11:00where that where that's really given.
1:11:01and if there is a a part in the film
1:11:04where we're really seeing him
1:11:07coming to starting to come to grips with
1:11:09all of this. But it's interesting
1:11:11because it's it's combined with this
1:11:14lotus like a psychedelic in a way.
1:11:17There's like he's forgotten his memory.
1:11:20He his memor is coming back. But what I
1:11:22did think worked was her saying at one
1:11:24point, you know, well, it's actually
1:11:25taken you se like you weren't able to do
1:11:28this sooner. It's it's actually taken
1:11:30you seven years
1:11:32>> to even get to this point. So that part
1:11:36is kind of named there. And Clips is
1:11:40given a little bit more time. Again, it
1:11:42it felt like she could have also had a
1:11:45lot more uh complexity and things going
1:11:48on there. I think a couple another
1:11:51immersive parts of that weren't named I
1:11:53want to make sure we we mention is
1:11:55Cersei. I definitely felt like so much
1:11:57was left off there and it was just like
1:11:59almost like how can we just do this make
1:12:01a really immersive showing of them being
1:12:04transformed into pigs and then like
1:12:06immediately move on. But I'm glad that
1:12:08they did make some space for I think the
1:12:11dead the encounter with the dead
1:12:13>> was really powerful. Now that was again
1:12:15completely warped and we have we haven't
1:12:19talked about Son yet who becomes this
1:12:22major character and is even one of the
1:12:24dead that's speaking
1:12:26along with like Aanemnon who we haven't
1:12:28spoken of yet but that was really
1:12:31powerful and another one I thought was
1:12:32really powerful was the sirens. I do
1:12:36think that uh something about that
1:12:38encounter with the sirens which is which
1:12:41is a um that's an ambitious scene to
1:12:44take on and we could think about other
1:12:46ways it could have happened but I think
1:12:48the sirens the meaning of the sirens it
1:12:51something was transmitted there. I liked
1:12:54the use of the music that they did with
1:12:56it too, which I was in reading how they
1:12:59actually were using really ancient
1:13:01instruments to make the music, which was
1:13:03also a nice touch there. And we we did
1:13:07get some there was a I think the sirens
1:13:09came through and and the sirens is
1:13:11another part where that can really I
1:13:13think that's a real opening of where and
1:13:16that can get to people like you were
1:13:18saying Jason with like showing up with
1:13:19people's dreams. But I definitely think
1:13:22another one is the dead. And to your
1:13:24point earlier, John, I think one of the
1:13:26main messages here, there is something
1:13:28about the dead, the ancestors,
1:13:33being in relationship to the dead,
1:13:35honoring the dead, honoring the
1:13:37ancestors
1:13:39that um is coming through. It actually
1:13:42was occurring to me even as we were
1:13:44talking uh the author Peter Kingsley
1:13:47wrote this book about CG Young called
1:13:49Catifolk which is again about like kind
1:13:53of like collapse um and it comes out
1:13:55leading into the pandemic years and
1:13:59it's sort of situating what Young was
1:14:02writing about you know young live
1:14:04through the atomic bombs and and all of
1:14:07that and the potential civil collapse
1:14:10but he's really emphasizing Even in that
1:14:12book, the dead, we've lost contact with
1:14:14the ancestors. That's one of the in even
1:14:17in that book that's bringing in this
1:14:19collapse idea like we need to be in
1:14:22touch with our ancestors and the dead.
1:14:24And so I do think there is something
1:14:26about that theme that I think did come
1:14:29across really strong in the film. And
1:14:32then the scene of them pouring out and
1:14:35it was also kind of interesting the way
1:14:36they did it. you I I do think there was
1:14:38something immersive there about the
1:14:40darkness and the pouring out of the
1:14:43blood and then these figures emerging
1:14:48out of the ground and speaking and I
1:14:50guess it was it was basically Son Agenon
1:14:53and and Terissus and we didn't get the
1:14:56full Terissus
1:14:58prophecy but we got some of it. Yeah.
1:15:01But yeah, any anything about that and as
1:15:04well as as Sinaon too because we haven't
1:15:06spoken about Sinaon yet and that's a was
1:15:08an interesting twist and turn
1:15:11that showed up.
1:15:14Um yeah, I'll say the sirens uh very
1:15:16powerful scene. Uh again, it's different
1:15:19from how I have often pictured it, but I
1:15:21felt it was successful and I think that
1:15:23piece of music was used very well,
1:15:26especially when they call back to it
1:15:27when he first sees Penelope. that
1:15:30twisted at my heartstring a little bit.
1:15:32That that was a powerful It's the only
1:15:34two times in the movie they used that
1:15:35piece of music.
1:15:36>> Um,
1:15:37>> and so the underworld scene was very
1:15:42interesting to watch. I think Elliot
1:15:43Pa's performance was awesome. I think uh
1:15:46it was it, you know, Achilles was not in
1:15:48the movie. And
1:15:49>> yeah, that's another thing we haven't
1:15:50talked about yet,
1:15:52>> but Achilles was kind of in the movie,
1:15:54right? When they say 10 years of rage
1:15:56poured out, that's Achilles, right? And
1:15:59that's what means. And that to me that
1:16:02felt like presencing that even if he
1:16:04wasn't literally there. And again, from
1:16:06a cynical movie making standpoint,
1:16:08>> Agamemnon, Menaaus, Achilles, they're
1:16:10all kind of big scary dudes. Now, again,
1:16:13that's very small and cynical, but I see
1:16:16why they they cut it and instead made
1:16:18Agamemnon more imposing uh in sort of
1:16:20like a Batman, Darth Vader way, which
1:16:23cinematically was, I thought, pretty
1:16:25compelling. There were a couple of those
1:16:26shots were very powerful. Um, certainly
1:16:28an odd choice, certainly not historical.
1:16:30I know a lot of people are angry about
1:16:31that, but you know, it's um, but I I
1:16:35think those were successful. Um, the the
1:16:38the
1:16:39power of the performance of of Son's uh,
1:16:42underworld uh, monologue, I guess. Um, I
1:16:48think it connects a lot of the threads
1:16:49that we've been talking about and sort
1:16:51of shows Odysius maybe where he's gone
1:16:55wrong if he hadn't already seen it,
1:16:57which hopefully he had. But, you know,
1:16:58again, we're all over the place, all
1:17:00over the the sequencing and the pacing
1:17:01is is all over. As we said, um, you
1:17:04know, I I was again, back to the
1:17:07feminine, I was crushed we didn't get to
1:17:09see his mom from the underworld. Um
1:17:12because it's such a I mean what the what
1:17:15this is all about a man relearning how
1:17:17to be a king and how to go home and lead
1:17:20and the answer throughout the entire
1:17:22poem is to connect to the feminine,
1:17:24honor all the gods, honor the dead and
1:17:27still be Athenian but do all that other
1:17:29stuff too. He had lost touch with the
1:17:30feminine and what is a more powerful
1:17:32image of that than meeting your mom in
1:17:34the underworld. Um and so I felt like it
1:17:37would have been great to see but it
1:17:39wasn't there. So I don't know. Those are
1:17:41my thoughts on
1:17:42>> Yeah, I think I mean I think that's
1:17:44really the issue and what you just
1:17:46described as the summary of the odyssey.
1:17:48It's a man coming back from a war
1:17:50learning how to be a good king is not
1:17:52what we've been given. Like he's
1:17:54actually going to go into exile and stop
1:17:56being a king because he hasn't learned
1:17:57anything. I mean I mean that that that
1:18:00would be my way of of seeing it. It's
1:18:01it's like there a real question mark of
1:18:03that. And I appreciate you bringing like
1:18:06yeah the eraser of the mother. I did
1:18:08also think though that the overall
1:18:10effect of the Nekia of the encounter
1:18:12with the underworld was was was again
1:18:15very profound, very powerful. Another
1:18:18moment where the dreamer in a in a
1:18:20person watching would feel permission to
1:18:22go where they need to go. Um and really
1:18:25summoning something really important
1:18:27about a very like that's an that's a
1:18:30very important encounter. And again, if
1:18:32if these had their space to kind of open
1:18:35up a little more, if we spent more time
1:18:37in these different spaces and weren't
1:18:39trying to put the Iliad in here, too,
1:18:42we'd have a lot more space. You keep
1:18:43speaking about three hours, but like
1:18:45three hours, you could do some stuff if
1:18:47you didn't have to do so much exposition
1:18:49about Troy. You could do the actual
1:18:51Odyssey and you could watch him respond,
1:18:54right? This is an this is supposedly a
1:18:56great actor playing Odysius. you could
1:18:58watch him go through something in
1:19:01response. And again, that's that's the
1:19:03the power of the Odyssey is that we do
1:19:06watch that. We do get to hear about his
1:19:08weeping. I don't see much weeping going
1:19:10on in this movie. We get to hear about
1:19:12his joking. We get to hear we get to
1:19:14watch him in response to things and and
1:19:16and and we get the the luxury of pacing.
1:19:19And that could have been there. There
1:19:21are ways to do that. The you know that
1:19:24I'm and I'm not putting this at the
1:19:26director's doorstep. I'm saying it's
1:19:27it's our moment like what are we able to
1:19:30actually sit still and go through
1:19:32together. If you want to get the
1:19:33Odyssey, you have to bear pain and
1:19:35suffering like not just action action
1:19:38action. You know, it's like the there's
1:19:40an integrative energy that the Odyssey
1:19:43the text has that this film is not able
1:19:45to do. it it it's integrative and and
1:19:48and so what we hope for is that these
1:19:51immersive moments people possibly go
1:19:54places with them that way, you know, but
1:19:56it's like for me that's that's the just
1:19:59imagine if this was more spacious around
1:20:01a few of these encounters. what might be
1:20:03different and we'd be seeing more
1:20:05character focused movie which is what
1:20:07the Odyssey is character focused you
1:20:09know and as you said it's the feminine I
1:20:11I also wouldn't I really appreciate that
1:20:13again we're underlining that you know
1:20:15that you're encountering monsters and
1:20:17the feminine those two things like and
1:20:20both of those things are the things that
1:20:22allow you if you have been overdeployed
1:20:24on monoculture masculine they allow you
1:20:28to reclaim parts of yourself to to
1:20:30experience that um but I and I did Think
1:20:33though I will say I did think that the
1:20:35calypso in moments
1:20:38gestured there you know
1:20:40>> and seven years you know we astrologers
1:20:42know that's a Saturn cycle you know
1:20:44that's part of a Saturn cycle it's like
1:20:46there was a gesture towards that if you
1:20:48again if you imagine if that had been
1:20:49given room to expand a bit like her
1:20:52conversations their encounters um that
1:20:55would be a different possible thing um
1:20:58but it's also it's it's it's asking it
1:21:01to not be a blockbuster
1:21:03you know, action action film.
1:21:06>> Yeah, I think that's the tension.
1:21:08>> Yeah. But you were saying about
1:21:10Agamemnon, Gray, I was curious what you
1:21:12were thinking about him.
1:21:14>> Yeah. Um well, I mean, John alluded to
1:21:17it. I mean, so and maybe um I know John,
1:21:20we were talking beforehand about Son and
1:21:23Antinuis. We could I think we could
1:21:25bring them in here
1:21:28in combination with Agen Nimmnon. But
1:21:31that was definitely one of the
1:21:32interesting choices because when you're
1:21:34talking about this journey of the soul
1:21:37that the Odyssey is showing and somebody
1:21:39going through this whole process to
1:21:41learn how to, you know, deal with all
1:21:44this trauma and guilt from being having
1:21:47somebody being part of all this this
1:21:49massive
1:21:50war crime whether or not they would have
1:21:53defined as a war. I mean you would have
1:21:54been aware on some level that you had
1:21:56caused this complete utter desecration
1:21:59and destruction of this civilization and
1:22:02then returning home from it and
1:22:06part of that is like you're naming the
1:22:09rage of Achilles is so central and it's
1:22:11it's the rage of Achilles and Agenm is
1:22:15also right in there. Agenoms this
1:22:17character that's full of rage, full of
1:22:20passion, full of corruption, um full of
1:22:25hubris
1:22:27and that that extremity of the hubus and
1:22:31the arrogance and the also the passion
1:22:34and the anger that Agon has and there's
1:22:38also this like juxiposition of these
1:22:40different characters
1:22:42um in this film. I mean, I think
1:22:46everybody watching it that grew up in
1:22:48our time period that wa grew up watching
1:22:50Star Wars films, it's almost impossible
1:22:52to watch those gates opening and almost
1:22:55like the Star Wars fog machine and here
1:22:59come these troops and there's this one
1:23:01guy that's taller than everybody else
1:23:03dressed in black that's just walking
1:23:05for. I mean, it was it was it was it I
1:23:08mean, I don't know how it it was so
1:23:11bladingly seeming to be evocative of of
1:23:14Darth Vader. And Agenm is is portrayed
1:23:18as this completely distant, cold, cruel.
1:23:21He's basically a symbol of empire and
1:23:24imperialism
1:23:26and um
1:23:29taking everybody, you know, with him
1:23:31into death and massacring, you know, a
1:23:35complete civilization.
1:23:37There's he doesn't he barely speaks. I
1:23:40mean, he speaks as a dead person.
1:23:42He it's it's the way he's shot, you
1:23:45know, right? It's it's just completely
1:23:46framed as like he's just in there as
1:23:48like a symbolism of the empire. I mean
1:23:52today we would maybe if we're jumping
1:23:53into contemporary times and like
1:23:55Oenheimer it's like the military
1:23:56industrial complex
1:23:58and um so it's interesting then he's one
1:24:02of the people few people showing up as a
1:24:04dead speaking and then there's also Son
1:24:07and I know we were talking earlier John
1:24:09you were mentioning there's that
1:24:10interesting thing with them drawing lots
1:24:12to go to war and um yeah would you say
1:24:16more about that with like because
1:24:17there's that brings in Antonyuse who's
1:24:19also given a very significant backstory
1:24:20story and then Son who's not even in
1:24:23these stories but later shows up in
1:24:25Virgil
1:24:26is given a major role in the film.
1:24:30>> Yeah. Yeah. So just real quickly, well,
1:24:32first I just want to say let if we play
1:24:33with the symbolism for a minute. I think
1:24:34it's actually brilliant now that you say
1:24:37it and I got this from what you said,
1:24:38but
1:24:39>> making Agamemnon Darth Vader is a way to
1:24:43bridge the symbolism gap
1:24:45>> to the the people
1:24:47>> to a modern audience and we all know
1:24:48what that is like.
1:24:49>> You know what Darth Vader, it's the
1:24:51Heartless Empire that just throws
1:24:52thousands of stormtroopers at every
1:24:54problem and doesn't care how many die
1:24:56and destroys planets and and really it's
1:24:58it's kind of amazing. Um, so
1:25:01[clears throat] I I thought that was
1:25:02just a throwaway aesthetic choice, but
1:25:04maybe maybe not. Um, so anyway, but yes,
1:25:06Antinuis and Son, um, there's a scene in
1:25:08the beginning,
1:25:10>> Robert Patson is Antinuis, and a young
1:25:13version of that character draws lots to
1:25:16see if he has to go to war or not, and
1:25:17Odicius is there because he's the king
1:25:19of Ithaca. Um, Robert Pat, young Robert
1:25:22Patson's character draws the lot that
1:25:24says, "You have to go to war." and he
1:25:27quickly tries to trade with the kid next
1:25:29to him who's like this tiny little
1:25:31farmer's boy, very poor. Um, and that's
1:25:34who's played by Elliot Page later on.
1:25:37And so Odysius sees this and sort of
1:25:39does a trick. Uh, so it's it's, you
1:25:42know, he he acts as though he sees the
1:25:46treachery. He sees Robert Patson's
1:25:47character trying to trade with the
1:25:49farmer's boy because he's a noble and
1:25:50doesn't want to go. Um, and Odysius says
1:25:54that he's doing the opposite. So, it's a
1:25:55trick. It's a trick that, you know, for
1:25:58whatever reason, he maybe to save face
1:26:01for the noble family, maybe to maybe
1:26:03because he doesn't want someone
1:26:04treacherous to come with him to war, but
1:26:07he Odysius takes Son, the little
1:26:09farmer's kid, and lets Robert Patson's
1:26:12character, Antinuis, not go to war.
1:26:15Right? So, sorry to explain that in a
1:26:17confusing way, but um a lot of names, a
1:26:19lot of names flying around. Um, so
1:26:21that's a trick that brings Son into the
1:26:23war. Later,
1:26:26Sinon is the one who Odysius
1:26:29tells says, "Hey, bring the horse to the
1:26:32Trojans. We're giving them a gift." And
1:26:34he never tells them that it's a trap.
1:26:37So, Son actually genuinely believes the
1:26:39horse is a gift. Um, and he gets killed
1:26:41for it anyway. And so, two in two ways,
1:26:46Odysius's tricks are responsible for
1:26:47Son's death. And we hear about that in
1:26:49his uh monologue from the underworld. Um
1:26:52you know, but it's it's a really
1:26:53interesting thing because I think
1:26:54there's a way you can look at this.
1:26:57People talk about patriarchy all the
1:26:59time, right? It's a it's a complex,
1:27:02nuanced, messy thing very much. Um one
1:27:06way to read this is that the the noble
1:27:08kid, you know, the son of the patriarchy
1:27:11says, "I'm not doing it." And so what
1:27:14happens? this kid who wasn't supposed to
1:27:15go to war gets sent to war and then gets
1:27:18killed for it, right? So, there's this
1:27:20masculine patriarchal, you know,
1:27:22abdicating of duty. Um, and then things
1:27:25fill in
1:27:27that maybe aren't maybe they shouldn't
1:27:29have and then they get killed, right?
1:27:31And so I I'm I think there's many ways
1:27:32you can read that as part of the
1:27:34culture, as part of what's been being
1:27:36discussed, as part of what, you know,
1:27:38maybe Nolan is trying to poke at. You
1:27:39know, again, good point, Jason. I
1:27:41shouldn't assume the author's intent,
1:27:43but you know, it's certainly very
1:27:45fascinating some of the choices he made,
1:27:47some of the changes. He had to bend over
1:27:48backwards to get this character arc in
1:27:50here. Why is he giving Antinois so much
1:27:52backstory? Why is he pulling from
1:27:54Virgil? You know, why is he casting the
1:27:55people he's casting? Like, I think there
1:27:57is a method to the madness. And I think
1:27:59it it's it's leading to some interesting
1:28:01questions.
1:28:02>> Well, I agree with you that irregardless
1:28:04of his intention, I think there is a
1:28:06reception. people if they think about
1:28:08what happened in that those drawing of
1:28:10lots and with the lot of Sinaon there's
1:28:13actually a lot of rich um symbolism and
1:28:19that's what you just described about uh
1:28:22sons and children of noble families in a
1:28:25modern context not going to war and
1:28:28people sending people off to war. I mean
1:28:30that is completely a moment you know
1:28:33we've been in and we're we're in right
1:28:35now. And I think that's a way that this
1:28:37film is being received. And so I think
1:28:39that's that's definitely there. So yeah,
1:28:42appreciate you going through that cuz
1:28:45and I and I think that also then goes
1:28:46with the way Agen Nemon is portrayed and
1:28:48we're we're like the Darth Vader Empire.
1:28:53Um
1:28:54I mean Odysius is like getting down on
1:28:56his knees. I don't feel like that's
1:28:57their relationship
1:29:00totally in the in any actual telling
1:29:04like in in this like Adysius sees that
1:29:07he's like getting down in this he's like
1:29:08my lord I don't feel like he's really
1:29:11crafty and cunning the actual Adysius
1:29:13right I mean that's again where we don't
1:29:15really see the
1:29:16>> Yeah story we don't see the complexity
1:29:19>> yeah to get away from him you know
1:29:21[laughter]
1:29:22>> yeah
1:29:23it's like not much characterization of
1:29:26Adysius.
1:29:28>> Yeah.
1:29:28>> Odysius would have a way of
1:29:30simultaneously bowing and saying my lord
1:29:32and also trolling him at the same
1:29:34>> Yeah. Exactly. That's
1:29:37that would be Odysius, right? Like he
1:29:39would have a way to say it perfectly so
1:29:42you can't land it on him that he just
1:29:44insulted you. He have insulted you.
1:29:47Yeah. And I think like again this is
1:29:49just I I mean the missing Achilles to me
1:29:52is is a meaningful miss only because it
1:29:55would differentiate different models of
1:29:57the heroic you know because Achilles is
1:30:00a very different kind of hero. Adysius
1:30:02is such a different kind of hero and
1:30:04that never comes across to us. I don't
1:30:06think there's ever any contrast. These
1:30:09these veterans could all be the same
1:30:10people basically like there's not
1:30:13Agamemnon. is sort of turned into just
1:30:15an archetype. But but you know there's
1:30:18not really
1:30:20you know the character of it again we're
1:30:22we're really suffering from action at
1:30:26the expense of character and of like
1:30:28really getting to know who are these
1:30:30people and that's why I found it very
1:30:32curious that the person whose
1:30:34motivations and backstory I know the
1:30:36most about are are Anos like who is
1:30:41really you know he's he's the lead bad
1:30:43suitor in the Odyssey but he isn't And
1:30:45and some of this backstory is conjured
1:30:47entirely like it is nowhere in the
1:30:49classical tradition. Son of course is
1:30:51later, but but this this notion about
1:30:54draft dodging and all of that. Um that's
1:30:57that's not really there. Um and it's so
1:31:00it's just hard because it's like, you
1:31:01know, yeah, the Achilles
1:31:04presentation would be really meaningful.
1:31:06And it's it's so interesting that the
1:31:08Achilles in the Odyssey is is like in in
1:31:12the in the Iliad Achilles is like the
1:31:14guy you want to be and he's going
1:31:17through something and you know he gets
1:31:18too big and all that but but in the
1:31:21Odyssey he basically says he says
1:31:24actually part of what Christopher
1:31:25Nolan's trying to say. He says that was
1:31:27all insane. I should have just stayed
1:31:29home. You know I don't know why I
1:31:30thought that glory was the thing I
1:31:32should be going for. Um, so you know,
1:31:36again, I I think a big part of this is
1:31:38that trying to tell the Iliad and the
1:31:41Odyssey at the same time has basically
1:31:44really drained the Odyssey of much of
1:31:46its magical possibilities. Um, and and
1:31:50that's that's to me this the hard thing
1:31:52about it. It's like it it's like the
1:31:55Odyssey has a lot more spaciousness and
1:31:58and and characterological stuff. And
1:32:01that's Achilles speaking to Odysius is
1:32:03one of those moments, you know, that
1:32:04that would happen, you know.
1:32:06>> Yeah. It's truly a hinge for the whole
1:32:08story, the whole culture. I mean, it's
1:32:10it's you can't overstate how important
1:32:13Achilles, the star of the Iliad, the the
1:32:16hero of Cleos, glory manifested, says
1:32:19none of it was worth it. Live life now
1:32:21cuz being dead sucks. Glory means
1:32:23nothing. Like, it's just such a powerful
1:32:26thing. And and we do miss it. And I
1:32:28think it's, you know, I've been sort of
1:32:30defending, sort of questioning, you
1:32:32know, some of the choices uh Nolan made
1:32:33for the movie, but I do think this one
1:32:35is a miss because I think it would have
1:32:37emphasized what seems to be his own
1:32:39position, right? It would have made
1:32:41[laughter]
1:32:42>> I mean, it's a little bit the arrogance
1:32:44of the choice. Like I again, I'm like,
1:32:46why didn't you trust the Odyssey and
1:32:47just tell the Odyssey? It would have
1:32:49gotten your job done. You know, that
1:32:51that's a thing I feel. I mean, again, it
1:32:54whatever. And another
1:32:56>> he's collapsed them and actually taken
1:32:58out the parts of the Odyssey that would
1:33:00actually
1:33:01>> Yeah.
1:33:02>> do the work.
1:33:03>> Yeah. And another thing you said that I
1:33:05I was thinking about is um you know I I
1:33:07kind of feel for Matt Damon because he's
1:33:09a great actor. He could have pulled off
1:33:11a version of Odysius that does what you
1:33:14said that that could have been the
1:33:16tricky but sort of respectful but still
1:33:19kind of putting you down version of the
1:33:21character. He he could have done that. I
1:33:23I've seen him do similar things. I
1:33:24believe he probably could have. Um so
1:33:26but he just wasn't given he wasn't he's
1:33:29given too short a leash, you know,
1:33:30something like that.
1:33:31>> And and that and that is why and if if
1:33:34that's true, right? If the Adysius
1:33:36character is flattened, then you're not
1:33:38in the Odyssey. You're somewhere else.
1:33:40You're doing something else because the
1:33:41entire thing is the development of this
1:33:44man and his journey. It's a journey of
1:33:46somebody like but I don't think there's
1:33:48any sense here of a journey or like a
1:33:50spiritual journey. And again, spiritual
1:33:53is is conjuring something. I don't mean
1:33:56to conjure, but like that he's going
1:33:58through something. He's grieving. He's
1:33:59working. Again, a calypso moments are
1:34:01the one place where there's a gesture
1:34:03there,
1:34:03>> but otherwise, I just don't see that
1:34:05happening. And I agree. I I I wrote to
1:34:08Gray a few days before it showed. I was
1:34:10like, "Oh, this could be a real
1:34:11threshold role for Matt Damon, like a
1:34:14moment where he'll move to like an elder
1:34:16actor, you know, because there's such a
1:34:17maturity in the character of Adysius if
1:34:20it, you know, and I I thought, wow, this
1:34:22this was a nothing burger role for him.
1:34:24Like there there's no character here.
1:34:26He's just kind of
1:34:28>> Well, I think a a really crucial element
1:34:30of what you're describing is I mean, so
1:34:33much about Adysius is connected to
1:34:35Athena. And again, we'll never know what
1:34:39Zenaia could have done with that part
1:34:41because I feel like if when you're just
1:34:42saying given nothing, I feel like the
1:34:44person that was literally given almost
1:34:46nothing was Zenaia. And because I knew
1:34:51Athena was going to be in the film. Now,
1:34:53I do think this would be
1:34:57it's a it's a tough project to take on
1:35:01to write that dialogue between Athena
1:35:04and Odysius. And then you also but when
1:35:07we were talking about how could
1:35:08something translate forward through a
1:35:10medium I do think the medium of film and
1:35:13the perspective we can get there could
1:35:15have actually been a really fascinating
1:35:19bantering dialogue really complex
1:35:22interactions going on between Athena and
1:35:26Odysius and that that connection of
1:35:28Athena and Odysius I mean she's almost
1:35:30like a she is like a personal don she's
1:35:33like almost um you know later on much
1:35:37later on in tradition uh the the famous
1:35:39Platonic philosopher Proclas who's kind
1:35:43of at the end of that whole stream is
1:35:45well known for being having a sacred
1:35:47marriage to Athena you know even at that
1:35:49point much later on the Henistic era
1:35:52she's still very alive and present in
1:35:55people's lives who are literally feeling
1:35:57you know who are married to her right um
1:35:59in a very like real way and um that
1:36:04really was not in the film there. There
1:36:06she she had a few lines. You didn't
1:36:09really get a sense of Athena and him
1:36:13interacting in I didn't I I felt I was
1:36:15really disappointed by not seeing enough
1:36:18going on there um between them. I'm glad
1:36:21she at least was in there. And that's
1:36:23really this is a big notable thing that
1:36:25we haven't talked about we need to make
1:36:26sure we do is is just how the gods are
1:36:28being portrayed. Athena was the only one
1:36:32um in the film that showed up. So, for
1:36:34example, Hermes comes in in the story
1:36:36and Hermes, we don't see Hermes um at
1:36:39all. Um, and one of the things about how
1:36:43this is being received by people, I
1:36:45don't think this is totally how people
1:36:47are seeing it, but because a um, Zenaia
1:36:53is shown playing this woman at the
1:36:57massacre of Troy and she's being held
1:36:59down. Looks like someone's going to
1:37:01bring a sword down on her head and then
1:37:03they show the statue of Athena being
1:37:05beheaded. I've definitely seen some
1:37:07people on social media commenting like,
1:37:09"Oh, this is like Inception or this is
1:37:12like this traumatized person and he's
1:37:14creating her out of his memory and he
1:37:16saw this priestess of Athena uh being
1:37:20murdered during this massacre and now
1:37:22he's just he's imagining her being with
1:37:24him." And I I don't know whether or not
1:37:28it was intentional or not. That was
1:37:29definitely not my interpretation. So, I
1:37:31mean, and be curious what how y'all felt
1:37:33about it, but what what I was very
1:37:36feeling was that it was Athena the whole
1:37:40time. Athena is a shape shifter and
1:37:43Zenaia was embodying a a real form of
1:37:48Athena. And my my impression just
1:37:51watching it live in the moment was when
1:37:54Odysius saw that the statue of Athena
1:37:57was being like beheaded,
1:37:59he saw at simultaneously whether that
1:38:03was a real person that she shapeshifted
1:38:05into or a vision, but he's essentially
1:38:08seeing that Athena herself, you know, by
1:38:12that act there is like this violation.
1:38:15And you know, as he's coming to all
1:38:16these realizations in Athaki at the end,
1:38:20we see her kind of almost like reaching
1:38:22out to him and she's being really
1:38:23emotional. It seems like she's almost
1:38:25like fading away. At least that was like
1:38:27an impression. I I need to go see the
1:38:28film again to see how it was actually.
1:38:30This might be my own memory. Um telling
1:38:33stories here, but I was sort of seeing
1:38:35that almost like she's really emotion
1:38:37and she's like fading away. And it it
1:38:39really brought up to me the version of
1:38:42Estraa that shows up in Avid in the
1:38:46Roman era. Also, Aratus who uh Library
1:38:49of Alexandria constellational stories
1:38:52also describes Estraa as this goddess
1:38:55who was really justice. She's present
1:38:58with humans during the Golden Age. And
1:39:00as humans become more and more corrupt,
1:39:02she's staying with them um while the
1:39:04other gods are abandoning them. And by
1:39:06the time we move from the Bronze Age to
1:39:09the Iron Age, which is literally what
1:39:11the film is showing, she decides to
1:39:14leave. Um, because she's had enough. And
1:39:17she's like, I'm done with you and I'm
1:39:19I'm also now going to abandon you. And
1:39:21the the gods are no longer walking
1:39:23amongst the people, which would have
1:39:25been like the golden age, you know,
1:39:26they're we're all walking and
1:39:28interacting
1:39:30together. So it almost made me wonder if
1:39:32there was like a level of interpretation
1:39:34of that being like that transition of
1:39:38or you know leaving. Um otherwise the
1:39:43gods are shown as very much natural
1:39:45forces. So Zeus is speaking through
1:39:47lightning and Zeus is speaking through
1:39:49thunder and Poseidon is speaking through
1:39:52storms at sea.
1:39:54So yeah, I mean there's a lot there to
1:39:56respond to, but any any of that y'all
1:39:58would like to respond to? Um be
1:40:00interested to hear your thoughts on it.
1:40:03>> Yeah. Um I mean the moment you describe
1:40:05with Athena with the statue and the
1:40:06decapitation was very powerful.
1:40:08Whichever one of those interpretations
1:40:10or another one you go with, I I felt
1:40:13that moment, you know, and that was a
1:40:15that was a big
1:40:16>> wo moment for me. Um and I I like that
1:40:20it's you can take it either way, you
1:40:22know. I I do think um you can read it as
1:40:25psychological or all in his head to some
1:40:27degree, but that doesn't mean Athena is
1:40:29not a presence. I think my and again I'm
1:40:32bringing a lot of baggage to all this
1:40:34because I study mythology
1:40:36semi-professionally, but like I think my
1:40:38read of the gods is that they are
1:40:40presences and patterns that are not
1:40:43always literal. They're not always
1:40:44clear. They're not always people with a
1:40:47big beard throwing lightning bolts at
1:40:48you, right? And so I think if you come
1:40:51in holding the gods that way, there's
1:40:53room for them to be in this story. Zeus
1:40:56talks to Calypso through thunder and she
1:40:58seems to understand. Um, you know,
1:41:00Poseidon is the whole damn film really.
1:41:03Um, and so the gods are there, but
1:41:05they're not there in like a literal
1:41:07sense where Poseidon is played by Liam
1:41:09Niss with a title wave beard, right? And
1:41:11so I I think that's good. Um, not that I
1:41:14wouldn't want to see that in a different
1:41:16world, in a different version. Um,
1:41:18>> you know, but I think I do feel the gods
1:41:20are presenced to some degree, whether to
1:41:24fit Nolan's aesthetic or to reach a
1:41:25wider audience. They're sort of held in
1:41:27this sort of like middle way. Are they
1:41:29there? Are they not there? Um, but I
1:41:31found it I I I thought it was
1:41:34interesting. I thought it was not
1:41:35necessarily
1:41:37um, you know, I think I think some
1:41:39people are saying it's it's all a
1:41:40figment, and I don't I don't I don't
1:41:42think that's how it's presented. What do
1:41:43you think, Jason?
1:41:46I uh well I I think what you said just
1:41:48now John at the beginning is really
1:41:50important that like um that Athena being
1:41:55a kind of
1:41:58introject of of the of the the the girl
1:42:02that he witnessed being killed um that
1:42:05doesn't feel in congruent with me to
1:42:07that being the way the goddess comes you
1:42:10know because I think the gods come
1:42:11through symptoms they come through dream
1:42:14images they come through traumatic
1:42:16experiences, you know. So for me that
1:42:18that would be very that would actually I
1:42:21think that's actually a very meaningful
1:42:23take on the gods in our time that that's
1:42:25how we narrate the gods through clinical
1:42:28diagnosis. You know, we we we call it uh
1:42:32bipolar and they call it and I call it
1:42:34my Uranus mercury conjunction, you know,
1:42:37uh or whatever. You know, it's like I I
1:42:39think that's um I actually like that
1:42:42that inter I didn't have that interpret
1:42:44as a live viewer probably just because
1:42:47I'm steeped in the story differently. I
1:42:49I just thought that's Athena. I
1:42:51>> Yeah, that's that was what I was
1:42:52thinking.
1:42:52>> I mean, I think I think we were kind of
1:42:54coming in that way. But I love that
1:42:56people went there and I I think that's a
1:42:58very important just way of seeing that
1:43:02we don't think that the world has been
1:43:04disenchanted because it's narrated in
1:43:06different ways. Um and we can gaze at
1:43:10something and you know really see the
1:43:11god in it even if it is a trauma sequ um
1:43:16and then with the gods and their
1:43:18non-appearance besides Athena their non
1:43:20like literal appearance that's very
1:43:22congruent to the odyssey itself you know
1:43:24the the gods uh the only moments I can
1:43:28think of are Athena accompanying him in
1:43:31different ways uh and also becoming
1:43:34mentor become you know and Mercury
1:43:36coming and I don't really remember if
1:43:38Adysius is present when when Mercury
1:43:40comes to Calypso. I I don't quite
1:43:42remember. But either way, my point being
1:43:44that the gods in the Odyssey, besides
1:43:47Athena, are not close to the humans in
1:43:50their forms. Um, they are in the Odyssey
1:43:54more than they are here in the sense
1:43:55that they're having council and having
1:43:57arguments about what to do, but they've
1:43:59already gotten further away than they
1:44:01were even in the Iliad, right? they come
1:44:03in and do battle in the Iliad and they
1:44:05they have their own battle with each
1:44:06other and then they also battle with
1:44:08some of the soldiers and things. Um, so
1:44:11we are already further along to
1:44:13Australia's detachment, you know, as you
1:44:16said, and and I did I actually did
1:44:19really think um
1:44:21watching the I I took that beheading of
1:44:24the Athena statue as the as the as a
1:44:27kind of also a nod to the thievery of
1:44:30the palladium and you know of Athena's
1:44:32sacred palladium that that Adysius and
1:44:35Damedes do. And that's Briefly mentioned
1:44:38in the Odyssey that she had been angry
1:44:40at him about doing that, but now she's
1:44:43come around to him again, you know, to
1:44:44Odysius again. And I I I actually did
1:44:47like that that that felt very good. I
1:44:51don't know, for some reason honoring of
1:44:54Athena through that through
1:44:55acknowledging the desecration of of the
1:44:58palladium that felt to me uh
1:45:01particularly meaningful and and like a
1:45:04thoughtful thing like something about
1:45:05that really felt on track. Um, yeah. I I
1:45:10also didn't Oh, and then Oh, and then
1:45:12you conjured Gray the moment when he and
1:45:14Penelopey are speaking through the
1:45:16screen and then she is nearby uh Athena
1:45:21and um and I remember thinking like
1:45:24though that she was pleased that
1:45:26something got named like he named he
1:45:29named the doing of that and that is
1:45:31actually when she had a big reaction
1:45:33that I I interpreted as her saying you
1:45:36you're getting it. you know, now now
1:45:38you're getting it, you know,
1:45:40>> and uh I have to say like although
1:45:44Penelope like it's just such a thing is
1:45:47not there, I still did feel it. You
1:45:50know, that's one of my favorite moments
1:45:51in the Odyssey is the interview between
1:45:53Odysius and Penelope because you you get
1:45:56to watch this incredibly subtle
1:45:58conversation where they're both dropping
1:46:00all kinds of things knowing the other. I
1:46:03know that you know that I know that you
1:46:04know you know like a and it's so it's so
1:46:08intelligent you know and uh I didn't
1:46:12they're not going to get there because
1:46:13of the lack of characterization but I
1:46:15did actually think they did achieve
1:46:16something with that talk between the
1:46:18screen there was something in that that
1:46:21I
1:46:22um yeah the homecoming moment there and
1:46:25the homecoming moment with Tmicus they
1:46:28did land for me in in some meaningful
1:46:31way. Yeah, the nosttos. After all, this
1:46:33is a nostto story, right? This is a
1:46:35homecoming story. Yeah.
1:46:38>> So, I I I I did feel something with
1:46:41those. I can uh yeah, feel that still.
1:46:46>> So, I mean, we've been talking a lot
1:46:48about this, but I mean, one of the
1:46:49things we were we initially were coming
1:46:52to talk about was, you know, did they
1:46:54really get this mythic quality apart,
1:46:56mythic quality across or more of like
1:46:59the transcendent spectacle? I kind of
1:47:01feel like we've been a little more on
1:47:02the transcendic spectacle uh side of
1:47:06things at times, but I'm also feeling
1:47:09that there has been some mythic quality
1:47:13that did get across. So I mean one thing
1:47:16to also think about is what are some
1:47:18ideas you know just from both of your
1:47:20work with mythology and how to insole
1:47:23your own life with it. What are some
1:47:25ways you think people watching this and
1:47:28experiencing this can really insole
1:47:31their own life? I mean one thing could
1:47:32obviously be to read the Odyssey and
1:47:35perhaps engage with works that you all
1:47:38both do to really get into it deeper.
1:47:41That's always just But even just having
1:47:44seen the film, what would be anything
1:47:46that y'all could offer about how people
1:47:48could insole their experience of it?
1:47:52>> I I would say I I do think, you know, be
1:47:56the emancipated spectator and, you know,
1:47:59don't really worry too much about the
1:48:01overall narrative arc of things. Um, but
1:48:05go into something that has stayed with
1:48:07you and go further, right? you know,
1:48:09make make draw your version of that
1:48:11cyclops, you know, and wonder about when
1:48:14have I felt the way I felt in that cave,
1:48:17you know, like let memory come, you
1:48:19know, um because I I I do think that
1:48:23again the the the person in charge of
1:48:26all reception is the receiver and we are
1:48:28the receivers of this particular telling
1:48:31and we get to go where we want to go.
1:48:33Um, but I do think an engaged mode with
1:48:35that that really gets personal is very
1:48:38powerful and um, and I think that just
1:48:41naturally leads places, you know, like
1:48:42we follow a rabbit hole or what do you
1:48:44call that? A rabbit down the hole,
1:48:46whatever it is. I I don't even know what
1:48:48that I guess it's Alice in Wonderland.
1:48:50Yeah. So, you you go down a rabbit hole
1:48:52like Alice, you know, and then you
1:48:54engage with what you find in there. Um,
1:48:56and I I think the the things we've named
1:49:00are the ones that we found ourselves.
1:49:01It's the immersive moments for me that
1:49:04engage you at a full consciousness level
1:49:07that have the most possibility for
1:49:11opening up a symbol and letting it
1:49:13really speak. And then I think many
1:49:15people watching this are astrology
1:49:16people that will naturally associate
1:49:19itself into the horoscope. You you will
1:49:21you can just gently ask you don't have
1:49:23to do research which which planet is
1:49:26most cyclops or you know or look for an
1:49:28asteroid. you know asteroids that's fine
1:49:31but I would just say just sort of ask
1:49:34gently where is this in my chart you
1:49:37know and and then go play with that and
1:49:40bring that in and you are the myth maker
1:49:42you know the reception is a creative act
1:49:46you know to receive is a creative act
1:49:48that's as astrologers we're as divers we
1:49:52receive right the symbols start speaking
1:49:54to us but we create we there's poasis
1:49:57you know the the making that Haidiger
1:49:59talked about the making and the
1:50:00eliciting. You elicit the thing and then
1:50:02you make with it. And and I don't want
1:50:05to understate I I I've I feel I've um
1:50:09had a strong thing about you know the
1:50:11author's intentions are not the point
1:50:13but there is a he's in poasis with this
1:50:16story for sure. Whatever we think about
1:50:18how he's been conditioned to do the work
1:50:20in this moment there's a poasis process.
1:50:23But but I think that that most myth
1:50:26becomes powerful when we when we move
1:50:28into poasis with it. When we when we
1:50:31make with it when we do soulm Hillman
1:50:33would have said you do soulm by really
1:50:36saying is there an image is there a
1:50:38moment and this is where even if you got
1:50:41assaulted by the fast pace of all these
1:50:44things you can repace this story for
1:50:47yourself. You can say I want to take
1:50:49time here. I want to tell this story
1:50:51again. I want to go look at art that's
1:50:54been made about the Cyclops. Um, you
1:50:57know, you so the the movie is the pacing
1:50:59of the movie means that it's not an
1:51:01odyssey. It can't be. Um, but you can
1:51:04have one with it, right? By by repacing
1:51:07that. For me, there's a I I really want
1:51:09to do want to emphasize that pacing
1:51:11piece that the Odyssey itself has pace
1:51:14and circumscriptions
1:51:16that allow for integration. So, I agree
1:51:19with what John said. It's certainly not
1:51:21making explicit psychological points or
1:51:24interpretations, but it's actually such
1:51:26a spacious novel
1:51:29text. Uh it's such so spacious that your
1:51:34soul gets to get involved. The soul
1:51:36usually moves at a slower pace, right?
1:51:39And so that that would be my way is just
1:51:42really like following one's own moment,
1:51:46uh one's own myth, uh you know, with it.
1:51:49And it does have a lot of possibility
1:51:51for that. I I I would never say that it
1:51:54it's a bad thing that this happened. I I
1:51:56think it's a it's a possibilities are
1:51:58always there to dream. And we've done
1:52:00some dreaming together today that I
1:52:02hadn't thought
1:52:03>> about. And I think talking about it with
1:52:04other people is also really a very
1:52:07powerful way. I one of my saddest
1:52:10moments for me is film criticism. You
1:52:13know, it used to be a creative
1:52:15discipline in and of itself. What you
1:52:17did in film criticism was not say I
1:52:19liked it or I didn't like it. You you
1:52:22tal you went further. You said oh and
1:52:24this brings up this and it reminds me of
1:52:26that and and and it film criticism was
1:52:28so fun to read in the past before it
1:52:30became how many stars and you know all
1:52:32that.
1:52:33>> Um and I I hope this conversation is a
1:52:36little bit like that for people. It is
1:52:38for me. I feel like I've been offered
1:52:40things from each of you. Um, so yeah,
1:52:43where where where where where you want
1:52:45your Odyssey to go and how and you can
1:52:47slow down and have one.
1:52:51>> I love that. That's a tough act to
1:52:52follow, Jason. Uh, there's a lot of good
1:52:55stuff in there.
1:52:56>> This is my main job that I now we're
1:52:58talking about the work we actually do
1:53:00because you have your your entire set of
1:53:02suggestions for people.
1:53:04>> Yeah. Yeah. And I I've that's that's
1:53:06true. and I've I've been on odysseies
1:53:08with you, you know, so I mean the three
1:53:10of us, you know, were all hanging out in
1:53:11Greece at one point, so so it's all it's
1:53:14all part of it. Um, just to just to add
1:53:16to that really, um, you know, going back
1:53:19to the way the gods were depicted in the
1:53:21film, I think, you know, this is an
1:53:23astrological audience for the most part,
1:53:25I assume. So you guys are probably
1:53:26already doing this, but just learning to
1:53:29recognize the gods in everything around
1:53:30you, right? However you define that
1:53:32word, and it's a slippery word, right?
1:53:34But they're there. the patterns, the
1:53:36forces, the moments, the insights, the
1:53:39emotions, um sensations, they they're
1:53:42all there, right? Um and so holding
1:53:45holding that idea of the gods being all
1:53:47around you and holding it in whatever
1:53:49way you need to is really powerful. Um
1:53:51when engaging with a myth, especially
1:53:53the Odyssey, but any myth and maybe even
1:53:55the movie, when you see an image that
1:53:58entices you, ask what does it mean? Ask
1:54:02why does it mean that? And then if it
1:54:04makes you feel something, where am I
1:54:07feeling that? Right? And then when you
1:54:09start to get an insight, say, "What else
1:54:12might this be? Who else might be
1:54:14present?" Those questions almost sound
1:54:17obvious, but I I think playing with them
1:54:19and and trying things, you know, like
1:54:20for the the Cyclops, it's a very
1:54:22important detail in this story that the
1:54:24Cyclops is a son of Poseidon.
1:54:27What does that mean? Why is he a son of
1:54:30Poseidon? There's no myth where Poseidon
1:54:32hooks up with a oneeyed lady. So, so why
1:54:35why did they go out of their way to make
1:54:37this monster a child of Poseidon? That
1:54:40must mean something. So, feel into that,
1:54:41wonder, explore, question. Um, you know,
1:54:45and then see what comes of that. That
1:54:47can be another gateway in kind of like
1:54:48we were talking about before. Um, so
1:54:51yeah, you know, and and I hope the movie
1:54:54does open some things up for people. Um
1:54:58perhaps tragically, you know, Jason,
1:54:59you've been saying it's like the Iliad
1:55:012. The Iliad is this story of
1:55:02grandiosity and Cleos and just the most
1:55:08and then what is the Odyssey, but the
1:55:10biggest most expensive movie of all time
1:55:13shot on the literal biggest film there
1:55:15is and the biggest heaviest cameras
1:55:18there are. I mean, everything about this
1:55:19movie is extreme. Um, and so it is
1:55:22almost like a Cleos kind of thing. So,
1:55:24it's kind of an interesting parallel
1:55:25since, you know, I think you and I might
1:55:27look at the Odyssey as sort of an
1:55:28antidote to a Cleos forward mindset. Um,
1:55:32so it's kind of interesting to see that
1:55:33happening, too. But the one thing I will
1:55:35say is that, you know, this movie is
1:55:36getting millions, if not billions of
1:55:39people all in one place having a felt
1:55:43experience of myth. And, you know, that
1:55:46is something that our culture has
1:55:47largely lost. And so I'm kind of hopeful
1:55:49that this could be the beginning of of a
1:55:52a renaissance of, you know, group
1:55:56experiences of mythic things. I mean,
1:55:57that would be great. Let's let's
1:56:00>> Can I add one thing? Uh, you know, one
1:56:02of the things I just want to name again
1:56:05so that we can break free of the of the
1:56:07unreliable narrator, Christopher Nolan,
1:56:10who and by the way, being being an
1:56:12unreliable narrator is very
1:56:13>> it's perfect. Yeah. on brand on brand
1:56:17for the Odyssey. Um, but one of the
1:56:20things that I think is important to say
1:56:22is we've kind of been letting this
1:56:25formulation be true that somehow the
1:56:28destruction of Troy was the but but you
1:56:31know there's another way to look at this
1:56:33story that that was exactly the right
1:56:35thing that Troy came down, right? And
1:56:38that's I think a really important piece
1:56:40and that's certainly how the Greeks in
1:56:42the story are holding that that this is
1:56:45that that they are faded to do these
1:56:46things that they they they must do these
1:56:48things. It's it's not like they just
1:56:50forgot the rules. They were actually
1:56:53following certain rules. Right? Achilles
1:56:55has a massive conversation with himself
1:56:58about should I or shouldn't I? Right?
1:57:00He's most of the Iliad. He's just on a
1:57:02beach uh trying to decide whether to go
1:57:05home or whether to fulfill his clayos,
1:57:07right? Whether to do that and and in
1:57:10many ways it's just right. Right. You
1:57:13it's the story can be seen as like
1:57:15here's this walled city. Well, anytime
1:57:17you build walls, the barbarians are
1:57:19coming. That's a psychic physics. Like
1:57:22if you if you put up the walls, you put
1:57:23up you you you call you summon the
1:57:25barbarians. So you I just want to say
1:57:28like we we've been inside this frame
1:57:30that this was a you know this was the
1:57:32end of all relatedness and all that but
1:57:34actually there are many ways to work
1:57:36with a myth. There's always
1:57:38multiple speakings that can happen um
1:57:41and multiple ways it could mean be
1:57:43meaningful. And so it may also be just
1:57:46right that Troy fell and very necessary
1:57:48for the evolution of consciousness. Not
1:57:50just a terrible thing that that meant
1:57:53everything was collapsing or or it did
1:57:56mean collapse, but that's not
1:57:57necessarily that it's wasn't the end of
1:57:59the story, was it? Right. Like you have
1:58:01300 years of the dark ages and then
1:58:03another thing came. So, I just want to
1:58:06kind of help us get past this
1:58:08heavy-handed narrative structure that
1:58:11that is being made here and remember
1:58:13that, you know, there's something
1:58:16something there. There are always so
1:58:18many ways that we can go again. We have
1:58:19to emancipate ourselves and give
1:58:21ourselves the freedom to go where we
1:58:23want to go with it.
1:58:24>> That's maybe the best answer to your
1:58:26initial question, Gray. Like, what what
1:58:28can you take away from this? You know,
1:58:30it's it's don't assume anything, right?
1:58:32Once you think you've nailed down the
1:58:34meaning, you've pinned the butterfly and
1:58:36that isn't always right. You need to let
1:58:38it fly and experience it, you know. So,
1:58:40I think that's great. Yeah.
1:58:41>> Yeah. That's great. I like also what you
1:58:43were talking about with just the fact
1:58:45that this film has gathered all these
1:58:47people and people are going into
1:58:50theaters to experience it together. It's
1:58:54opening up this really ancient story.
1:58:57And we've been in a time period with
1:58:59film where it's been this endless
1:59:01recycling of not uh the almost like the
1:59:06unthic these modern versions of like
1:59:09superhero or Star Wars films and there's
1:59:13been this I mean the industry's just
1:59:15kind of fallen apart with like recycling
1:59:19not even very compelling stories to
1:59:22begin with. So it's also kind of
1:59:24interesting if somehow this opens up
1:59:25because like this is a traditional thing
1:59:27like you're naming all through time
1:59:29Uripides into the Roman era like Avid
1:59:32Virgil. I mean these stories have always
1:59:35it'd be interesting if somehow the
1:59:37success of this opens up some return to
1:59:40going back to some of these more ancient
1:59:43stories. But just to sort of re um
1:59:47vivify what y'all were just talking
1:59:48about. I think that's to me how the
1:59:51really important thing is taking in the
1:59:53film whether or not you've actually read
1:59:55the Odyssey
1:59:56whatever image does really speak out to
1:59:59you like just really take in afterwards
2:00:01you know what what did really come
2:00:02through strongly you don't have to know
2:00:05why it's more just holding that and
2:00:08thinking about it even if you are
2:00:11critical of your art making abilities
2:00:13making art or doing something creative
2:00:17and you know letting a whole process us
2:00:19open up because we there is a Trojan
2:00:22horse here of very ancient patterns and
2:00:25gods and all sorts of content that's
2:00:29that's still coming through the film no
2:00:31matter what form it's in. It's it's it
2:00:34is kind of like the shape-shifting of
2:00:35Athena or Metis having been swallowed by
2:00:39Hollywood in a way, but she's still um
2:00:43she's still there. And yeah, so I really
2:00:46like what y'all are saying about not not
2:00:48insisting on what it means and just
2:00:50seeing where it leads you and then yeah,
2:00:53reading the Odyssey, uh, reading the
2:00:56Iliad and and really going in with more
2:00:59people like John, you have like your
2:01:00book that's out there and, uh, Jason,
2:01:02you have courses and I think you
2:01:04probably have classes or webinars on
2:01:05your website also about the Odyssey, I'm
2:01:08sure that people if people want to watch
2:01:11that so and and read the book and so
2:01:13yeah, hopefully
2:01:15that you can go on your I mean I think
2:01:17that the the thing about this would be
2:01:18like yeah can it open up people going on
2:01:21their own odysseies and uh like Athena
2:01:24in a way you know being the the
2:01:26companion of that personal odyssey.
2:01:31>> Yeah, I love that. That's true. Trust
2:01:33the Odyssey.
2:01:35[laughter]
2:01:36Even if you don't fully trust
2:01:37Christopher Nolan, trust the Odyssey.
2:01:39And uh it's okay if you don't understand
2:01:40it up here yet.
2:01:42>> Right. Absolutely.
2:01:44>> Two quick questions. Did you guys hear
2:01:46all the thunder happening behind me?
2:01:47Zeus was talking to us while this was
2:01:50being recorded.
2:01:51>> Um.
2:01:52>> Wow.
2:01:52>> So, so that was a that was a cool
2:01:54moment. While we were talking about
2:01:55Zenia and um
2:01:57>> Wow.
2:01:57>> Yeah.
2:01:58>> And then last thing, did you guys that
2:02:00trailer for the horror movie uh in the
2:02:03beginning, did you guys get that one?
2:02:06>> I don't think so.
2:02:07>> It was called Other Mommy. It was
2:02:10>> Oh, yes. Absolutely terrifying.
2:02:12>> I did see that.
2:02:13>> So, that's one more visceral mythic
2:02:15image that will come with me into
2:02:17[laughter]
2:02:18the experience of having seen the movie.
2:02:19You must you must have missed it, Jason,
2:02:20cuz it was I've watched dozens of horror
2:02:22movies, but something about that trailer
2:02:24just like not good. So, anyway, sorry,
2:02:27the it fit with the uh the idea.
2:02:30>> Other other mommy, that's the name.
2:02:34>> Very very chilling. Yeah. Yeah. But
2:02:35anyway, sorry for the tangent, but yeah.
2:02:37>> Yeah. No, no problem. But yeah, well,
2:02:39thank you both for being here. I think
2:02:40we we really did give a a good have a
2:02:42good discussion about it and how it came
2:02:44through and I be really interested to
2:02:47hear from people their thoughts and
2:02:49hopefully in the end it it can end up
2:02:51ensling an experience and I mean we are
2:02:54interesting this whole collapse
2:02:55narrative that's out there that's so
2:02:57dominant. I mean we're we're clearly in
2:02:59a time of us going through an odyssey
2:03:02right now. So perhaps yeah, there's
2:03:05something fitting about all of that.
2:03:08Well, thank you, Gray. This was a lot of
2:03:10fun. Thanks, Jason.
2:03:11>> Thank you both. Yeah.
2:03:12>> Yeah.

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