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The Norwegian Method for Recreational Runners | Dr. Marius Bakken — Transcript

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0:00If you have heard of the Norwegian
0:01training method and thought, is this for
0:03recreational runners or only for elite
0:05athletes? Then you will need to hear
0:07this conversation. Double [music]
0:08threshold is just two threshold sessions
0:10on the same day, but really one long
0:12session with a long recovery in between.
0:14It's nothing more [music] complicated
0:16than that. You should not be afraid of
0:17it. You're not doing like double the
0:19work that is [music] difficult to hit
0:20the correct intensity, but it's even
0:22more difficult to survive by doing it by
0:24effort. You cannot over time expect
0:26[music] your body to handle four or five
0:28sessions a week where you go too hard.
0:30>> Let's say there's an athlete who has a
0:32max heart rate of 180. And if we're
0:34talking about 87% of max heart rate
0:36there, that's a top of the threshold of
0:38157. [music] There's quite a few people
0:41who would be doing their speed work at
0:43165 and think that they're nailing it.
0:45>> That's the natural [music] intensity to
0:46go just a little bit too high. In terms
0:49of this recovery window, we are I think
0:51underestimating how little training it
0:53takes to [music] flip over. Mario Bakan
0:56is a doctor in Norway and he has also
0:58happened to have held the Norwegian
1:00record for the 5,000 m for 15 years. He
1:03spent 25 years and more than 5,000 blood
1:06lectate test [music] on one problem. How
1:08to dial in the right training intensity.
1:10Coming up, what the method actually is,
1:12how to dial in your right training
1:14intensity without a lap, and how much of
1:16this can actually work [music] on just
1:18four to 6 hours of running per week.
1:20What would be your approach to find that
1:22golden zone, the zone where you can make
1:25those right adaptations without
1:27overtraining?
1:27>> I would start by if you enjoy these type
1:30of conversation, it would mean a lot to
1:32me if you can hit the like and subscribe
1:34button, even say hi in the comments. It
1:36really helps me get better guests and
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2:29See also the link in the description.
2:31Hope you enjoy my conversation with
2:33Mario Bakan. Where I want to start is
2:36the Norwegian method. The the
2:39terminology has come up many times,
2:41especially in recent years,
2:43>> but there might be people listening who
2:45have heard of it, but who might not
2:46necessarily know what it exactly means.
2:49>> Can you give us a broad overview of the
2:51Norwegian method? I mean I think we're
2:52talking about a framework of training uh
2:55where you have some specifics in it and
2:58uh you know the most uh important one of
3:00course is control over training that
3:03you're uh you know strict within certain
3:06type of intensities and you're you know
3:09trying to control that as best as
3:12possible. uh you know in my case it was
3:14with a lactate meter but it could also
3:15be with a heart rate and [clears throat]
3:17you're respecting that uh type of
3:19intensity control and you also combine
3:21it with high volume of aerobic training.
3:24So we have a you know very I would say
3:27strict aerobic focus and also a focus on
3:30precision and then you can add to that
3:33of course the concept of double
3:35threshold for example on an elite level
3:37[snorts] and you have different things
3:39that are broadening the concept but you
3:41have a core uh like I would say
3:44philosophy or or framework that sits in
3:46the middle that [snorts] is uh based on
3:49intensity control and uh a structure uh
3:52that is predictable week at the week. It
3:55is so interesting because you're talking
3:57about intensity control and before we
3:59started recording,
4:01>> we're talking about how many fascinating
4:03athletes and coaches and experts live in
4:08Norway and that you and Dr. Steven Syler
4:10live only one mile away from each other.
4:12>> Yeah. Yeah. One US mile. So, it's it's
4:15just uh a fun fact. [laughter]
4:18>> That's awesome. I mean, both of you guys
4:20have talked about intensity control and
4:22intensity discipline quite a bit. Uh,
4:25>> so when in what sort of way can we make
4:28this applicable to the recreational
4:29runner? Like to someone listening here
4:31and who's like, okay,
4:33>> there's there's a lot of different
4:35things that apply here about low
4:37inensity training, about threshold
4:39training, so at a higher intensity, but
4:41not overdoing it.
4:43>> Yeah.
4:43>> What sort of way would this apply to a
4:45recreational runner? I mean uh first of
4:47all I would say this if you are only
4:50running by effort uh it's very difficult
4:54and not to go into overtraining or
4:56injuries it's very very demanding and
4:58and this you know even goes for runners
5:01doing uh you know four or five sessions
5:03a week you know I I work as a doctor now
5:06and you know I see these patients all
5:08the time and uh [clears throat] I uh I
5:12see what is happening if you do too uh
5:14hard of an intense training training
5:17three times a week with some easy
5:18running and it's uh it's uh the road to
5:21uh trouble. Uh with the intensity
5:24control uh you get a more predictable uh
5:28recovery window which means that every
5:30session will lead into the next session
5:33uh with fairly the same u control of the
5:36muscular system. So you don't accumulate
5:39week after week uh the load. Uh I think
5:43that's the main thing to be aware of
5:46that running by effort is very
5:48difficult. You can say that it's
5:49difficult to hit the correct intensity
5:51but it's even more difficult to to
5:54survive by doing it by effort.
5:55>> And when you're talking about by effort,
5:58are you talking about perceived effort?
5:59Are you talking about um specific heart
6:02rate numbers? I know you're you're very
6:04much into the lactate measurement.
6:06>> Yeah, of course. you know that's uh I
6:07mean like with elected meter you get uh
6:10you know as close as we can I think to
6:12what you how hard you're actually
6:14training but uh what I mean by effort is
6:17that you will go out and you would feel
6:19good one day and it will run harder and
6:21then you you'll feel a little bit uh
6:23heavy next day then you do a little bit
6:24uh easy running [snorts] um and it's
6:27very difficult because usually what
6:29happens is that the hard training days
6:32they get a little bit too hard and the
6:34easy days get a little bit too hard also
6:36And then you get the accumulated stress
6:38over time and you don't even notice it.
6:40It just happens week after week and then
6:43you start hitting more and more heavy.
6:45You know, it can lead to injuries. What
6:47happens with um the [clears throat] the
6:49Norwegian system or Norwegian method
6:50that I talk about in the book is that
6:53you know you will um in many cases
6:55improve your training but you will also
6:58feel better like more spring in the legs
7:00from session to session and that's due
7:03to that uh predictable recovery window
7:06that you're getting.
7:07>> So many different directions we can go
7:09from here. I know [laughter]
7:12>> one one of the main one that I want to
7:14make is applicable to to those who might
7:16not necessarily have a have a lactate
7:18monitor either. By the way, just
7:21>> reading that you have performed 5 and a
7:24half thousand lactate measurements
7:26either on yourself or different athletes
7:28and runners that you have worked with.
7:30That is that is a lot of data that you
7:33have noticed right there.
7:35>> Yeah.
7:35>> What are some of the common mistakes
7:37that you have come across there? I mean
7:39like earlier you mentioned low intensity
7:42still doing too high and the high
7:44intensity like possibly doing it too
7:46high.
7:47>> I I would say uh you know a couple of
7:49things. Uh the first one is that if
7:52you're doing the easy runs a little bit
7:55too hard you know I talk in the book
7:57about uh you know you should try to do
7:58it under 70% of maximum heart rate like
8:01it's a general rule. You know what I saw
8:03in my own training through all the
8:05testing all the data uh was that you
8:08know if I [clears throat] were to do the
8:10easy runs a little bit harder 75% 77%
8:13which is quite common uh it will it
8:16would influence uh the next harder
8:19session quite a bit. So uh it will
8:22influence the actual recovery more than
8:24you would think which is why I'm being
8:27so strict and running easy on the easy
8:29runs. Um, and the other thing is on the
8:32harder sessions, like I say, if you run
8:34on effort, usually you will go a little
8:37bit too hard. On the threshold sessions,
8:40um, it's difficult to to hit it correct.
8:44If [clears throat] you're using heart
8:44rate, for example, it makes it easier.
8:46And if you're using estimated pace, it
8:49also makes it easier. Uh, the trouble is
8:51with effort. With effort, you usually go
8:54a little bit too hard and it leads into
8:56trouble uh long term. One of the I made
8:59a note over here. I thought this was a
9:01very fascinating one. On page 216 of
9:04your book,
9:06>> you talked about the stare test and I
9:08thought this was a fascinating one.
9:10>> So basically like the early detection of
9:13overload through muscular feel.
9:15>> Yeah.
9:16>> And there's the overload progression.
9:18Tell me a little bit more about this
9:19tear test. And this is a tear test
9:21during training. This is not after
9:23you've just ran a hard race and you try
9:25this in the morning. Yeah, I mean you
9:26wake up in the morning and and you would
9:28walk up the stairs and you know ask any
9:30runner uh that has been overtrained or
9:34had a a you know difficult uh you know
9:37weeks to months of the of their training
9:39with lack [clears throat] of performance
9:41and they will say the stairs felt heavy
9:44and that's due to muscle tone. You know
9:46I I talk in the book two chapters about
9:48muscle tone. You know, I wrote a
9:50Norwegian version first and my editor
9:52said, "You cannot uh, you know, keep
9:54this in the book. It's too technical."
9:55So, I had to put it in the appendix like
9:57on the far behind of it. And then in
9:59English book, I said, "Okay, I'm I'm
10:01doing two chapters." So, um, the stair
10:03test is due to high muscle tone. Uh, so
10:06that like the tension in the muscle is
10:08too high and you will feel it going up
10:11the stairs. It's a really good way of uh
10:14you know kind of um uh have an overview
10:18of how the muscles are responding to
10:20training and if it's leading into the
10:23wrong direction.
10:24>> All I remember is usually after I ran a
10:26world major marathon and I would try to
10:28come out of the hotel in the morning
10:31>> and the stairs would feel absolutely
10:33miserable but then [laughter] then you
10:35know that that's that's definitely on
10:37the on the far extreme side because
10:38obviously that's a race and that's not
10:40training.
10:42Um, but when we're talking about that
10:44feeling of the legs are heavy, I feel
10:47>> this is one of those subjective cases as
10:49well, right? It's the same as like being
10:51able to comfortable breathe. Okay. What
10:53is comfortable breathing, right? And I
10:55think even with the heaviness of the
10:56legs,
10:57>> some people describe it as a two out of
10:5910 discomfort, whereas others describe
11:01it as a four out of 10. Do you have any
11:03additional thoughts there?
11:04>> No, I mean you you are correct. uh it is
11:07um a little bit individual how much
11:09we're monitoring our body you know I see
11:11it as a doctor you know you know some
11:14patients I know they they come with with
11:16trouble that you know uh the next
11:20patient would be in the hospital because
11:22of so it is relative uh at the same time
11:24you know the general feeling of not
11:27having the response in the quads or in
11:29the legs you know it it's something that
11:32most runners can relate to um and and
11:35usually If you palpate their legs,
11:37you'll uh get the you know the same same
11:40kind of feeling of fullness uh that
11:42they're feeling heavy. Um, so it is uh
11:45subjective, but it also is it's sort of
11:48the same thing going on. And like I say,
11:51most will relate to being heavy and
11:54being really, you know, springy or
11:56feeling really great on some workouts,
11:58you know, and what you see in a training
12:00week is how much it can fluctuate. And
12:02that's usually almost exclusively due to
12:06muscle tone.
12:07>> Spot on. What were some of the other
12:08signs to keep an eye for?
12:10>> No, I talk a little bit about it in the
12:12book. You know, you have the stair test.
12:13The other thing is uh early wake up you
12:16know you will wake up at 4:00 or 5 in
12:17the morning. We see the same with
12:18depression or and burnout you know
12:20[snorts] and I I think that is it's a
12:23signal from the body that it's not safe
12:25to sleep you know we're uh when we're
12:27sleeping we're not able to protect
12:29oursel we cannot hunt anything you know
12:31it's just one [clears throat] of those
12:32situation you have to be safe
12:34>> and if you're going into overtraining
12:37like the same with depression with
12:38burnout you're in an unsafe condition
12:42and the body is trying to protect you
12:43and you not don't sleep that um that
12:46deep you have some hormonal changes also
12:49but I think it's just like a a signal
12:51that now we have to be careful because I
12:53cannot handle this enough so uh the
12:56stair test the early wake up and also um
13:00the feeling of being less motivated for
13:02things not just running but other things
13:04you know you're feeling kind of like
13:05dragged and we see this in studies also
13:09uh for athletes before they start to um
13:12get into peak shape like four or five
13:14weeks before there's studies to look on
13:16their like mental condition or uh how
13:18they're feeling motivated and is down uh
13:21before they start to peak for a marathon
13:23for example. So there's something going
13:26on there as well. Uh so we have those
13:28small things and it's it's uh important
13:31to be aware of so that you don't flip
13:33over
13:34>> and this is where journaling and paying
13:36attention to not just the data but even
13:39the the actual sensations and the
13:41feelings in the body right um become so
13:44important there too.
13:45>> Yeah. and trying to distinguish uh what
13:47is natural training load because you
13:49need to be tired a lot of the time you
13:52know but and but what is the point when
13:54things start flipping over and I think
13:56that if you're feeling you know heavy on
13:58the stairs you know several days in a
14:01row and you have the early wake up is
14:03coming you also can look at resting
14:06heart rate and HRV and I use it and I I
14:09monitor it and if that is also you know
14:11going the wrong direction then you have
14:13several factors
14:15So uh I would say you know try to uh
14:17monitor u recovery and load at the same
14:22uh way that you're trying to monitor
14:23intensity. Use several things at the
14:26same time and you're trying to see if
14:28several things are correlating. Then you
14:30have to be aware.
14:31>> I do think we live in a society right
14:34now where stress levels are very high
14:36with a lot of the recreational runners
14:38having busy lives. They're constantly on
14:40mode and
14:41>> on top of that they're stacking X amount
14:43of running.
14:44>> Y
14:44>> and here it even becomes more of a fine
14:47line, right? When we're talking before
14:49this about Yakopinga Britson, like yeah,
14:52he could train many different hours per
14:54week and he can recover very well from
14:56that. Same with you in your in your
14:58prime of running. You're running many
15:00times per week and that is your number
15:02one priority.
15:03>> Yeah. And so it's this is where it's the
15:06whole e and flow with how much is the
15:08stress from daily life impacting our
15:10recovery and how much training load we
15:12can have. And that's what I've come
15:13across many times now on the podcast
15:15that
15:17some of these elite athletes have very
15:20simplified lives purely to be able to
15:23handle more training load.
15:24>> Yeah, that's correct. You know, you can
15:26rest a lot.
15:27>> Um and you know, I I spent uh quite a
15:30bit of time in Kenya. I was there for a
15:32couple of years in total and you know I
15:35could see the same thing going on there.
15:36You know, I even talk in the in the in
15:38the book a little bit about in the in an
15:41ideal world, I think that a week or two
15:44or two before you go into absolute peak
15:47shape, you should just, you know, just
15:48rest as much as possible. You know,
15:51limit the walking. Just do the training
15:53and do the eating and the sleeping and
15:55then you you likely perform better, you
15:58know, because it's uh you know, look on
16:00the animals, what are they doing?
16:02They're running fast and they're
16:03sleeping, you know,
16:04>> so the cat or dog, you know, see what
16:07they're doing. They're even, you know,
16:09doing the hunting or they doing the
16:11sleeping.
16:12>> So, I think that's that's probably what
16:14we're, you know, made to do in a way.
16:16And with our life now, of course, is is
16:19quite different. But I would say this
16:20though, you know, um nothing beats um uh
16:25really good structured training in terms
16:27of intensity control.
16:30um you know
16:32you cannot beat that. So uh you can
16:36[clears throat] get away with um a lot
16:38of things but you cannot get away with
16:41trouble with intensity control.
16:43>> Absolutely. So for someone listening to
16:46this right now who wants to implement
16:50this intensity control and in particular
16:52trying to identify not how
16:55>> how low to run that low intensity but
16:57mostly like the the threshold.
17:00>> Yeah.
17:00>> What would be your approach to find that
17:03golden zone the zone where you can make
17:06those right adaptations without
17:07overtraining?
17:08>> No I I would uh start by actually
17:11running easier on the easier day. So I
17:13would start with saying you know you got
17:14to start it on the right spot. I would
17:16first of all say [gasps] at least for
17:18now run under 70% of max heart rate on
17:20the east runs you start there and then
17:23you start to experiment with threshold
17:25training and [clears throat] let's say
17:26you have five sessions a week you would
17:28say two of those sessions you know I
17:31would start doing threshold training uh
17:33if you're well trained you can do it by
17:36uh heart rate uh if the conditions are
17:39you know 15 to 20° Celsius you know
17:43>> like 15 to 20 Right. Yeah. Like normal
17:47temperature, you know, uh that heart
17:49rate will be somewhere usually uh
17:51between 8 and 87% on
17:53>> uh on the what I call sub threshold that
17:55you're not hitting over the threshold,
17:57but you're just below the threshold.
18:00>> Uh and that's sorry I I just want to
18:02clarify that I heard you correct between
18:0480 and 87%.
18:06>> Yeah. Yeah. Somewhere if you're well
18:08trained, you know, it's individual, but
18:10but somewhere around there, you know,
18:11it's a little bit slower than half
18:12marathon pace for most most. So you do
18:15that uh twice a week. Uh one longer
18:18repeat, six minute repeat, the other one
18:21shorter repeat, one minute repeat for
18:22example. Then a third uh session you can
18:25go harder um where you go uh above the
18:28threshold, you know, once a week. If you
18:30start doing that and you're starting to
18:33experiment with the threshold sessions
18:35in terms of hitting the intensity better
18:37and better, more and more control and
18:39you do that over time, [snorts] you are,
18:41you know, in the core of this type of
18:44training and then you expand. You can,
18:46you know, put in all these other things,
18:48but you start with that starting point.
18:52It is so fascinating to me how much
18:55longer the recovery time takes once you
18:59start going over 90 90
19:01>> to 94% of max heart rate versus like
19:05trying to stick to the to the like 87
19:09like that that difference right there
19:12it's very noticeable in how many hours
19:14of a recovery time it has taken for me.
19:16>> Yeah. I mean it's not only that it takes
19:18more time, it's that it varies so much.
19:21That's the main thing. You know,
19:22sometimes it can take a day, sometimes
19:25it can take three days. And I talk about
19:27that in the book, you know, that you're
19:28going into the recovery period with with
19:31like a uh with something that is
19:34difficult to control and is difficult to
19:36predict. So if you're doing a a session
19:39where you go 90 92% 93%.
19:42you know, you cannot really plan the
19:44next hard session knowing that you're in
19:47balance. And that's some of the beauty
19:49with threshold training. Over time, you
19:52have a predictable window where you time
19:54after time know that you're on the right
19:57side of the load. Maybe not ideal every
20:00time, you know, but uh it's safer most
20:04of the time.
20:04>> It is interesting though because even
20:06hearing you say this, right, I want to
20:08just put some numbers to this. So let's
20:10say there's an athlete who has a max
20:12heart rate of 180.
20:14>> Y
20:14>> and if we're talking about 87% of a max
20:16heart rate there, that's a that's a top
20:19of the threshold of 156.6
20:22or 157.
20:24>> Yeah.
20:24>> There's quite a few people who would be
20:27doing their speed work at 165 and think
20:30that they're nailing it.
20:31>> Exactly. And that's you know like I said
20:33the natural intensity to go at is just a
20:37little bit too high in terms of this
20:39recovery window and you know and I talk
20:41in the book about uh you know why this
20:44is an effective zone is effective
20:46because it's just fast enough to get
20:49specific enough to running fast but it's
20:53at the same time not too fast in terms
20:56of recovery. So you're hitting just like
20:58you're balancing things uh the recovery
21:01and the specificity. So you're getting
21:03both of them at the same time and that's
21:05difficult thing um uh with most other
21:08intensities and then you add to that
21:10once a week something around there where
21:13you go harder and you know and then you
21:16build from there and you can do all
21:17those things like I talk about in the
21:19book like double threshold which is a
21:20very very effective way of putting in
21:22more training the same day. Um and then
21:26you have all all these other things you
21:28can you can do but you start uh with a
21:31very very simple outline I would say.
21:33>> So describe to me a recreational athlete
21:37listening to this who's training 6 hours
21:39per week.
21:40>> Yeah.
21:41>> Do you recommend at that point already
21:43doing a double threshold day or would
21:46you say it's better to spread them out
21:50um given the amount of training hours
21:53and days that you have? Now, it depends.
21:54I would say the most uh important thing
21:56is this. It depends on how your um your
22:00general load during the week is. Uh
22:03let's say that you're working um with
22:06something that is physical and demanding
22:08during the week. You know, it's uh it's
22:11better for for some of of those to do a
22:15double threshold on a Saturday where you
22:16can rest, you can be with your family.
22:18It's just a it's an easier day for you.
22:21And double threshold is just two
22:22threshold sessions on the same day, but
22:25really one long session with a long
22:27recovery in between. So it's just like a
22:30it's a long set of repeats with a long
22:32serial break in the middle. It's nothing
22:34more complicated than that. And I've
22:37seen it time after time. Recreational
22:38runners can, you know, have great
22:40success with it as long as they have
22:42control over intensity and they know
22:44what they're doing and they're doing it
22:46when they rested during the day. That is
22:48such a key element from it because I can
22:50imagine indeed if it's a busy workday.
22:54>> Yeah.
22:54>> Just the mental load already and then on
22:57top of that the double workout it can
22:59feel like a system overload versus the
23:01weekends there's
23:03>> geneneral
23:04>> and also like you know the the muscles
23:05you know uh one of the beauties with
23:07double threshold is that you get the the
23:09muscles are primed from the morning you
23:13know towards the evening. If you have a
23:14very physical and demanding job, you
23:17will not get the same effect in the
23:19evening. You know, you'll get worn down
23:20during the day. So, you not get the
23:21priming effect from the morning. So, you
23:24know, some of the point, you know, it's
23:25is not there anymore. So, I would say
23:27you need to be aware of the work day.
23:30>> So, your book describes a variety of
23:32different workouts and different
23:33examples.
23:34>> Yeah. [snorts]
23:35>> For for like this recreational athletes
23:38training six hours a week, what would a
23:40double threshold workout on a Saturday
23:42look like? Describe to me the morning
23:43session, the amount of time in between
23:45and the evening session in an ideal
23:47world.
23:47>> Yeah, like for an athlete 6 hours a
23:49week, I would say something in the
23:51morning uh some longer repeats uh 5* 6
23:55minutes where you go um you know a
23:57little bit lower intensity maybe that
24:00you would normally do just to safe it
24:01you know you staying on the safe side.
24:04Uh so let's say in the morning you hit
24:06around 80% 83% of max heart rate. you go
24:10on conservative just to be safe and then
24:12in the evening you do 25 times 1 minute
24:14and you can push harder. Uh for my
24:16experience um on the shorter repeats if
24:19you're not hitting exactly the threshold
24:21it's not that important compared to the
24:23longer repeats and in the morning. So
24:25you want to be a little bit safer in the
24:27morning than in the evening. And what
24:29most people experience is they feel
24:31really good in the evening doing those
24:33one minute repeats. So somewhere around
24:3530 minutes in the morning, 25 in the
24:37evening for that level is perfect. And
24:40like I said, you know, you should not be
24:41afraid of it. It's not it's not some
24:43you're not doing like double the work.
24:44You're doing, you know, um a
24:47concentrated load during the same day,
24:49but you need to do it easy the next
24:51days. You cannot be pushing the body on
24:53the easy day uh afterwards, then usually
24:56get into trouble.
24:57>> This is so fascinating. It really is.
25:00And I think there's there's a variety of
25:02different ways to train.
25:03>> Yeah. But the key lesson once again,
25:06you're doing
25:09basically a session and the actual
25:11intensity even here in this case, if
25:13you're a 180 heart rate athlete with a
25:16max heart rate and you're doing even 83%
25:18of max heart rate, you're talking about
25:20149 heart rate.
25:22>> Exactly.
25:23>> And exactly
25:24>> to many people that might not even feel
25:26like an interval session or that might
25:28not even feel like they're they're
25:30getting those benefits or those
25:32adaptations. Whereas you were saying,
25:33you actually have to
25:35>> lower it just so you can stack the
25:36overall volume. Right.
25:38>> Exactly. That's the thing, you know, and
25:39that's uh that's one of the surprises
25:41when I was an athlete myself, you know,
25:43I could I could see that um by doing
25:45this type of training, I can put uh in
25:48more and more volume uh and the effect
25:51would be almost the same as sessions
25:53that I would, you know, have so much
25:55longer recoveries from. So uh week after
25:59week I will get in better and better and
26:00better shape and it would just continue
26:03over such long time compared to the
26:05traditional way of training you know I
26:07spent years in the US you know training
26:09there so I I I I've been through all the
26:11traditional type of training you know I
26:13I I've tried it all um and it's just
26:16fascinating how you can just kind of
26:18like add to the training week after week
26:21after week by doing it this way and I
26:23think again that I think two things are
26:26happening
26:27Um uh I think we're underestimating the
26:30Arabic ceiling or the Arabic um like top
26:34level of an individual and we're
26:36underesting mating the risk
26:38overtraining. That is what's happening
26:40and you have to take care of both.
26:42>> You spend long stretches in Kenya you
26:45mentioned.
26:46>> What was one of the key things that
26:48surprised you while you're out there?
26:50Yeah,
26:50>> I I think the main thing was that the
26:52intensity was lower on most of the
26:55sessions in terms of lactate and I would
26:57expect you know I would take the my
26:59meter and I would you know draw some
27:01blood and you know get some results and
27:04I could see you know okay they are here
27:06and I'm there and that's the that's the
27:08good thing about uh you know like
27:10something objective you can actually
27:12measure it um and that would tell me
27:15that um most at the time at least of the
27:18western runners were doing uh their
27:21sessions too hard, too often. Like I
27:24say, you know, you need to have some
27:26more intense sessions at least on a
27:28higher level uh to get anywhere, but
27:31once a week is usually enough for most.
27:34Several years ago, I went to a medical
27:36lab and I did a lactate threshold test
27:39and we were warming up well and then we
27:43started doing the blood pokes every 5
27:45minutes and the intensity in increased
27:47and towards the end it was
27:49>> running as hard as I could and it became
27:51fairly uncomfortable and he said until
27:54the moment you can't go anymore like
27:56just let me know and then we'll take the
27:57last measurement and and so we did and
28:00the very first time I did this test I
28:03tapped out around I think it was a 9
28:05mill mole 9.5 mill mole and just felt
28:08very uncomfortable and I was over it.
28:10>> Yeah.
28:10>> And then I did more low inensity
28:12training and I did more higher intensity
28:15training and I I ended up ramping up the
28:18training volume 60 70 80 miles a week.
28:20>> Yeah.
28:21>> Then I did another test and we started
28:24measuring. We did the same thing again
28:26and the second time I was able to go
28:29much higher lactate levels.
28:30>> Yeah. I was able to go to I think it was
28:3314.9 before I ended up tapping out.
28:35>> Y
28:36>> what happened? Is that that you just
28:38become better with the lactate shovel
28:40that you're able to like get rid of some
28:42of that lactate in a more efficient way?
28:44Is it able that you build up more
28:46tolerance for discomfort? What is
28:48happening?
28:48>> No, no. I think that it's uh it's it's
28:51probably just due to the like the
28:53ability to like mechanically go uh
28:56faster uh and mobilize more motoric
28:59units at you know so you know you you
29:02can look at it two ways you have like I
29:05would say like a genetic thing going on
29:07the muscle fiber profile you know in
29:10particular that says something about how
29:12high you can go in in in lactate when
29:14you're well trained and then you have
29:15the training itself so let's say you for
29:19an 800 meter runner, for example, and
29:21your maximum potential level was 25, you
29:25you couldn't do that by doing uh just a
29:27little bit of training. It's the same if
29:29if I did, you know, a session on a bike,
29:31you know, I could I could barely, you
29:33know, get over five mill moles in
29:35lactate because I was such a poor
29:38cyclist, you know, and it's the same
29:39thing going on. you have to have the
29:41specific um uh like uh stimuli of the
29:45muscles to mobilize enough and then you
29:48have to have the genetic profile to get
29:50there. So it's a combination and what
29:52you're seeing there is you get actually
29:54getting trained uh for long enough to
29:56get up there. If you continue to train
29:59over time, usually to go down again, you
30:02know,
30:04like I talk in the book about I talk
30:05about um you know um for most athletes
30:10is good to put the uh level of lactate
30:14that you're training at uh from those
30:15tests a little bit uh down in the
30:18beginning and then over time it will
30:20naturally adapt quicker to a lower
30:23lactate level at the threshold. This is
30:25technical, so you know, my apologies,
30:27but it's it's a it's the same thing
30:30going on there.
30:31>> One thing that stood out to me is that
30:33you mentioned somewhere
30:35that elected meter and doing elected
30:38metering is about the same cost as a
30:40pair of running shoes.
30:41>> Yeah.
30:43>> Were you talking about going to a
30:45medical lab and doing it or owning your
30:47own device at that point?
30:48>> No, I mean my my point is this. Uh these
30:51days, you know, you have all this uh
30:53equipment going on. when you have the
30:54the expensive shoes on the watches and
30:57everything. Uh and I [clears throat]
31:00think one of my um uh reasons for
31:04mentioning it is that uh with a lactate
31:06meter just a few measurements of that uh
31:09will give you so much information about
31:11how hard you're actually training and
31:14it's helpful. Uh and I'm not talking
31:16about doing the me having the meter with
31:19you on all sessions all the time. uh but
31:21it does give you some very valuable
31:23information and you can cross test it
31:26with your pace and with your heart rate
31:28and with your actual perceived effort
31:30and it makes it easier to train better.
31:33Um and again one of the reasons uh for
31:36doing that is it's easier to stay
31:39injury-free if you have better control
31:41over the intensity. So it's just like a
31:43long-term perspective. That's why I'm
31:45bringing it up not to be technical, not
31:47saying that you know everybody should be
31:49doing this. It's just I see the
31:51injuries. I see the trouble and I know
31:53that it can be avoided with intensity
31:55control. And nothing is better than
31:58doing the lactate meter. Most runners
32:00never discover what they're truly
32:02capable of doing because they're trying
32:04to figure everything out alone. Over the
32:06past decade, I've coached hundreds of
32:07runners inside the personal best
32:09program. What I can provide is a proven
32:11system, clear directions, and real
32:13support. Stop guessing and train with
32:15confidence within 60 days or get your
32:17money back. I would love to welcome you
32:19in the personal best program. Tell me
32:21more because let's say I want to buy a
32:23lactate meter and I want to start
32:26training this way.
32:27>> Yeah.
32:27>> How do how do I go about it? Do you have
32:29any recommendations for what meter to
32:31buy? I'm sure that there's
32:34>> very cheap unreliable ones. There's
32:36probably better ones that perform
32:37better. But
32:38>> I mean I I used the Lactate Pro when I
32:40was an athlete, you know, and I did my
32:42five and a half thousand on that and
32:43it's still out in the market as one of
32:45the mo bestselling ones. So, I just know
32:47that that's a good one. Uh, but uh you
32:49know um it's actually an an easy way to
32:52do this. You get a meter and then you
32:55start uh doing the workouts. And you
32:58know, in general, uh, if you're not a
33:00very explosive, like if you're not, uh,
33:02you always been quick and you're just
33:04poor at running long distances, you
33:05know, if you're just like an, um,
33:08somebody that is that is, uh, I would
33:10say prone to running longer or doing
33:12endurance work, you know, if you start
33:15by doing that intensity at, let's say, 3
33:17and a half millles and you start to
33:19experiment with that, you're you're
33:20you're probably not that far off. And
33:23then over time, it usually a little bit
33:25lower and 3.0 though for most most
33:27athletes and then you start to try to
33:30see where am I at that intensity you can
33:34go in and do a step test as a treadmill
33:36uh trouble with that is uh it's indoors
33:39it's a treadmill uh it's not always uh
33:42that accurate in terms of outdoors so
33:44the best thing is just to get a meter
33:46start you know experiment with it try to
33:49also you know see what happens those
33:51days that you're heavier what happens if
33:54you do a hill workout on a Saturday and
33:56you do a hard session again on the
33:58Monday. What happens to the lactate? And
34:00you will see the patterns. You will see
34:02that this session made this pattern
34:05going on with the with the lactate. I
34:07cannot run that hard. My heart rate is
34:10not going up. My lactate is high if I do
34:12this before this. So you can see this
34:15pattern going on. Um um and that's I
34:18think the the main benefit of it. It
34:21gives you so much information. You
34:23mentioned 3.5 and then you mentioned
34:26three.
34:26>> Yeah. My point is this uh like in the
34:2970s uh uh 4.0 was like the general level
34:33that the lactic threshold was at
34:37>> you know uh in reality it's like more of
34:39a zone. It's not like a set point. It's
34:41it's because this is an indirect
34:43measurement of intensity. So it's not
34:45that even that accurate. uh what I saw
34:49uh in my training and I've seen on all
34:50the other all the athletes is that over
34:53time with endurance training um usually
34:56it will go down and uh place itself
35:00around 3.0 old for a lot of athletes
35:02over time. But if you're not that into
35:04that this type of training, you know,
35:07usually you can start a little bit
35:08higher. Let's say up to three and a half
35:10and then you will work yourself self uh
35:12uh down.
35:15But what most will see is that they're
35:16at five, you know, when they start
35:18training, you know, they're they're way
35:19off. They're not even close. That's the
35:21most common. And this this is something
35:23we saw the Norian athletes also in the
35:26late 90s and beginning of 2000s compared
35:28to the Kenyans. They were all over the
35:30place.
35:31Uh so uh it instantly gives you more
35:34information that you can use long term I
35:37would I would say.
35:38>> So if someone is listening to this and
35:40is like excited to give this a go.
35:42>> Yeah.
35:43>> You can buy one of those devices. What
35:45is the cost of one of those devices?
35:47>> Nice. It's a little bit uh you know
35:49variation but anywhere from three to
35:52$500.
35:53>> Okay. And then you buy the strips,
35:54right? And there's a cost for the
35:56strips. And then let's say you go to a
35:59to a running track,
36:01>> you you warm up. Well, describe to me
36:03how you would go about measuring
36:05someone.
36:05>> No, I mean uh like I say, you you can do
36:07a step test which means that you have a
36:09certain pace and you will go um you know
36:12up on steps in that test to go faster
36:15and faster and then you will try to find
36:17that point where the curve goes upwards.
36:19It goes steeper. It's not like a flat
36:21curve upwards anymore and you can
36:23estimate the threshold. But the other
36:25way around it is uh what I talk about
36:28you go a little bit more freely. Uh you
36:30can do a step test just you know to see
36:32where you are more to monitor where your
36:35level of fitness is but you can also
36:37just start using it. I mean you start to
36:40monitoring start being curious you know
36:43when I'm doing this what happens to the
36:44lactate what happens to the next session
36:46when I do this session first you know
36:48that's the way to do it. you use it more
36:51actively and you know um when I see
36:53discussions around the lactate meter you
36:55know there's some frustration going on
36:57because you know some runners think is
36:59it's difficult to use and that's because
37:01it's being used too technical you know
37:03you use it like any other tool you look
37:05at it and you try to see the patterns
37:07and it's just closer in terms of actual
37:10load than pace and heart rate that's the
37:14point
37:14>> what about the first threshold what are
37:17we looking at there from a lactate
37:19perspective because there the the number
37:212.0 comes up frequently, but I'm also
37:24hearing 1.8.
37:26>> Where where is your thought process
37:27around that?
37:28>> No, my thought process is that um uh and
37:31you can see that in my book also I
37:33rarely talk about it because um it can
37:36have its place. Uh I just think that uh
37:39going a little bit higher is just more
37:41effective and you're getting uh not that
37:44much more load on the muscular system.
37:47So you can just tick uh it a little bit
37:49higher. Um of course if you're doing the
37:52marathon or half marathon is different.
37:54Uh but uh from my experience for the
37:56five and the 10k you know you just go
37:59sub threshold and you go easy and and
38:02and that's the you know the way to to do
38:04it um and [clears throat] then you add
38:07uh intense training to that. So it it it
38:10can have its place, but um if you're
38:13trying to, you know, keep a core, uh
38:16usually a little bit higher is is u is
38:20better. So sometimes I come across
38:23athletes who do different types of
38:25training volume. The one might be doing
38:27four hours of training a week and they
38:28can do all of that low intensity runs
38:31towards the higher end of that zone,
38:32too.
38:33>> Yeah. Y but then I come across athletes
38:35who are training 8 10 12 hours a week
38:38that some of their workouts they want to
38:41start going more towards the zone one
38:43because if they're doing everything at
38:44the top end of that zone two and they're
38:46adding twice a week high intensity
38:48sessions it's too much load on their
38:49body right so
38:51>> what are your thoughts on zone 2
38:53training related to overall training
38:55volume there too
38:56>> no I mean uh first of all we have to to
38:58you know uh to go into what we talk
39:00about with zone 2 like in in
39:03zone system that I talk about in the
39:05book. You know, zone 2 will usually be
39:07somewhere between 70 and 80% of max
39:09heart rate just to have that clear
39:11first. So, it's u you know, the the
39:14concept there has to be clear. Um no, my
39:16my main point and this goes through my
39:18whole book is that you have uh several
39:20or many different ways to be doing
39:22training. The big question is what is
39:25the most effective? What is the safest
39:28way to do it over a long period of time?
39:31uh and that's the whole puzzle. I mean
39:33that's the big equation that we should
39:35be looking at here. You know, not
39:37discussing if this is effective or this
39:38is effective. The big question is what
39:40is the most effective at the less risk?
39:44Um and from my perspective for most
39:48athletes um you know going strictly on a
39:52certain number of intensity zones which
39:55means very easy sub threshold and more
39:59intense that uh you know for most
40:01athletes leads to better results than
40:03going in the middle zones and that's you
40:06know I I'm being clear in the book about
40:08it because I I think it is important.
40:10>> Several years ago I spoke with Dr.
40:12Steven Syler
40:14>> and I asked him what are you excited
40:16about in the coming years here with
40:18technologies coming out and different
40:20areas that you're looking at and we had
40:21initially talked about heart rate
40:24training we had talked about lectate and
40:26he said one area I'm excited about is
40:28respiratory rate so breathing patterns
40:30and breath rate
40:32>> I know that there's some more companies
40:34out now with like heart rate monitors
40:36that have tied in respiratory rate
40:39>> do you have any thoughts from your and
40:42on using breathing patterns as an input
40:45of perceived exertion and and how this
40:48all fits into this approach.
40:51>> No, I mean I just think in general now
40:53what we're seeing is you have so much
40:55data coming in from different devices
40:57and different uh angles that it's just a
41:00matter of time until we um get into a
41:03situation I think where we can monitor
41:05actual load and actual recovery much
41:07more closely. Um so I'm not saying you
41:10know that training that I I preach it's
41:12uh it's it's it's not uh uh the training
41:15I think that we will see be dominating
41:18uh the field in in 10 years. What we'll
41:20see then is much more individual
41:22approach because we will be able to
41:24monitor those things much more uh
41:27accurately. So we're in like a I would
41:30say um situation of data now that that
41:33will change things um at least in terms
41:36of accuracy
41:38and again uh we are I think
41:40underestimating
41:42uh how little training it takes to flip
41:44over. I really think so. [laughter]
41:48>> What do what do you So you're a doctor.
41:50>> Yeah.
41:51>> What do you see in athletes that
41:52overtrain and and how can they dig
41:54himself out of that hole in the safest
41:56way? No, I mean first of all it's uh for
41:59most of them um the general like
42:02overtraining it it's a matter of the
42:04muscular system being unelastic and much
42:08too high in tone. So they get that and
42:11they can stay there for a long period of
42:13time for before they go into what is
42:16traditionally called overtraining where
42:17they have all the other symptoms also of
42:20depression and sleep disturbance. So you
42:23have an a muscular overtraining that is
42:25very very common. The trouble with it is
42:28that the high muscle tone uh easily
42:32leads to trouble in the insertion point.
42:34So you get the insertional injuries with
42:37knee trouble and achilis trouble. uh and
42:39that's usually why they come to me as a
42:41doctor of course and then I will palpate
42:43their their muscles and I will you know
42:45I can instantly see the trouble from
42:47there and then they go into the training
42:49and it's uh uh most often uh too intense
42:53training over time and too little
42:54structure of the training. So, so
42:56that's, you know, it's just a common
42:58pattern uh going on here. And I think
43:01it's it's it's uh important to to bring
43:04it across that you cannot uh over time
43:07expect your body to handle four or five
43:09sessions a week where you go too hard.
43:11>> And I come across that quite frequently.
43:15The other part that I've come across
43:16several times with the overtraining is
43:18athletes under fueling and throwing off
43:22the whole hormone balance, their entire
43:24recovery. also waking up in the middle
43:26of the night and
43:29>> and it takes quite a while to get out of
43:32that. It's um the whole part of
43:35completely dialing back training volume,
43:37training intensity, possibly even taking
43:39an entire time off from training
43:41altogether.
43:42>> Yeah, that's right. And I mean several
43:44several aspects of it, but you know, you
43:46have to consider our body. I think a lot
43:49of things are happening that are just
43:50pure instincts. I mean, you're in a
43:52situation where you don't get enough
43:54food.
43:55You know what you do? Do you do you push
43:58training or do you do everything you can
44:00to get the rest going? I think that is
44:03what happening. You know, uh the body is
44:05putting on the brakes and it's putting
44:06on the brakes and you don't listen and
44:08putting on more and more breaks and
44:09maybe you listen
44:12and you know that's one of the the the
44:14trouble with going um underfed
44:16[clears throat]
44:17over time. Um, and you know, I just a
44:21few weeks ago I had a talk with Tim No,
44:23the physiologist. You know, he was one
44:25of my my childhood heroes. I grew up
44:28with the lore running next to my bed for
44:30like 10 years and I finally Yeah. And I
44:32finally had a talk with him and just a
44:34very very like lowkey podcast there. I
44:37think it's like 500 views on on YouTube
44:39or something. Um but I think you know
44:42he's he's on to something in terms of a
44:44central governor which means that the
44:45brain is actually controlling like a
44:47like a safety margin in terms of how
44:50much load you can handle and that can be
44:52several things and it can also be how
44:54much available fuel you have. So the
44:57body will say okay I'm in a situation
44:59it's kind of dangerous what is going on
45:01there I have to you know make this safe
45:03and it's checking in with you it's still
45:05not safe let's make the margin greater
45:07and greater and greater you know you
45:09cannot sleep you have to be ready for
45:12example with fasting for example if you
45:14fast for you know a few days in a row
45:16you will start waking earlier and
45:18earlier in the morning just to get ready
45:20to hunt you know
45:21>> so you know something is going on there
45:23I think
45:24>> yeah it really is and I've even noticed
45:26when I'm sleeping poorly the next day.
45:29My my whole like I start getting
45:32hungrier much quicker and my whole Yeah,
45:35it's it's fascinating how how it
45:37changes.
45:38>> I want to talk about a few different
45:41things. One,
45:43>> you and I were speaking before this
45:44about springy legs and about getting
45:47that pop in the legs, which is such a
45:50nice feeling for runners to have.
45:51>> It is.
45:52>> And some people have it. Sometimes
45:54people have had it and they've lost it
45:56and sometimes people are in the middle
45:57of it and they feel very very excited to
46:00run and they're very springy.
46:01>> Yeah.
46:02>> Describe what's going on there and if
46:05people don't have it, are there any ways
46:06to kind of improve that?
46:08>> Yeah. Um I mean if you look in on the
46:11body as a whole, you know, most of the
46:12system are slow to change because you
46:16know they're trying to protect us. So,
46:17you know, the the heart and the blood
46:20and the hormones, you know, it takes
46:21takes time to really do any, you know,
46:23rapid change. Uh, with the muscles is
46:26different. I mean, you can just test
46:28yourself, you know, do a few deep jumps
46:30and then you can feel how the legs are
46:32different afterwards. It's just a little
46:34bit of stimuli and then you have a a
46:36change in something. And that is also
46:39what is happening in terms of of of
46:41running when you have the day-to-day
46:43variation is the muscular system that is
46:46uh doing the variation and I talk in the
46:49book about muscle tone which is very
46:51very central to this uh you know um
46:55muscle tone is not that um uh of um
46:59unknown concept at all in medical in
47:02medicine for example you have the
47:03patients with cerebable paly that have
47:06very very high tone and you know
47:08the the trouble over the joints because
47:10it's so so stiff and the high tone is
47:12going there and then the hypotone
47:14patients that cannot walk because the
47:16muscles cannot hold them. Uh in
47:19[clears throat] running you know you see
47:21um what is happening in the middle there
47:23uh where you have the variation from day
47:25to day. Some days the muscles are
47:29responding and they're springy and
47:32they're in a you know in a balanced
47:34place and that is what happening when
47:36you're feeling really really good on a
47:38given day. Uh so really what is
47:40happening is three things. You have the
47:42tone which is the fullness of the muscle
47:45or I would say um uh the what we call
47:48visco elastic properties and then you
47:50have the stiffness which is the force
47:52needed to move something sideways and
47:54elasticity which is the recoil back and
47:57these three are working you know from
47:59day to day going up and down and one of
48:02the points with the like the Norwegian
48:04method is to optimize those things so
48:06you can get a better feeling day after
48:09day. Um, and you know, I do my running
48:12six times a week these days and uh I
48:15still, you know, I feel good on my
48:17sessions. I'm springy. I can run fast.
48:19And it's it's because I take care of
48:21those things.
48:22>> What What was your
48:25total training volume in your peak when
48:28you
48:28>> I was around 880 kilometers, so like 120
48:32miles. Yeah. So like uh no not not very
48:36high but high enough.
48:39You had a 5k record for quite a while
48:43there and then it was in 2021 that Jakob
48:46finally
48:47>> 19 I think
48:48>> 20 2019
48:49>> I think so. Yeah, I I [laughter] don't
48:51remember that well uh those details but
48:53I think so. Yeah, that was
48:55>> Yeah,
48:56>> that was incredible. What was your what
48:58was your very favorite workout? Was
49:00there anything that you truly enjoyed
49:02doing?
49:03I mean the most special type of workouts
49:05were of course in Kenya uh you know at
49:08um [clears throat] in the beginning of
49:10the morning when we were get up and you
49:12have the sun coming up and you do the
49:14long really really tough long threshold
49:17work in the morning uh those sessions
49:20you know you you you just couldn't match
49:21it I think in terms of healing and uh
49:24you know it was also in the core of my
49:26method you know the things that I would
49:28you know really believe in I would do
49:29that at altitude there um no So I would
49:33I would enjoy the longer threshold
49:35repeats where I can check the lactate, I
49:37can monitor the heart rate, I can get
49:39all this like uh interesting information
49:42out of the session.
49:44>> It is so high on my bucket list to go to
49:47Kenya to join a running camp and like
49:50just as a recreational runners. I know
49:52that they have some of these Kenya
49:54training camps as well, not just as
49:55elite athletes, but
49:57>> feel like just being surrounded by that
50:00>> commodery and like-minded people who are
50:03all like making running quite a priority
50:05there for the specific time in their
50:08life. And so,
50:09>> yeah, I can imagine that that energy
50:10must be contagious while you're out
50:12there as well.
50:13>> Yeah, of course. And you know when I was
50:15uh doing my training back in the early
50:182000s and late 1990s um it's just they
50:22were totally dominating the field. I
50:25think I I I think I counted some uh uh
50:30time during those years like like the 43
50:33of the 50 top athletes were from Rift
50:36Valley in the 5K, you know. So was just
50:39like total domination. So, and that was
50:42also one of the reasons why I went down
50:43there, of course, to see what what was
50:45going on. Now, it's different, you know,
50:46it's it's shifted and that's a good
50:47thing for the sport, of course, because
50:49you have more nations, you know, trying
50:51to to uh [clears throat] win the medals
50:54and and that's a good thing for the
50:56sport.
50:56>> I saw the Americans were absolutely
50:58crushing it a few days ago in the 5K as
51:00well. That was awesome.
51:01>> Very nice.
51:02>> Yeah.
51:03>> Yeah. But on the weekend first,
51:05>> of course. Of course. That was
51:07[laughter] that was that was awesome to
51:09see.
51:10>> [gasps]
51:10>> Why why do you feel that is that like
51:13just looking across triathlons, iron
51:16man, short distance, middle distance,
51:18long distance, why do you feel the
51:19Norwegians are dominating in such a way?
51:22I mean uh when you're talking about uh
51:25these like running or triathlon
51:28distances you know most of the training
51:30is it's similar uh in terms of the
51:33intensity control and in terms of the
51:36structure and then you of course have a
51:38variation within that framework. U so
51:40it's individualized but it's it's uh
51:43still the concept of controlling
51:45intensity with a lactate meter at a very
51:47accurate way. you're doing the altitude
51:49training, you're doing the easy uh
51:52running on the on the easy runs. So,
51:54it's you see the framework is very
51:56similar and and and it's a safe and
51:59effective way of training. And I think
52:00that's one of the benefits of a small
52:03country like Norway because it's, you
52:05know, so few people. So, you actually
52:07know what is going on from one camp to
52:09the other camp and you can copy it. You
52:11can try to do the same things quite
52:14easily. And also it's easy to flip over
52:16if a 101 uh camp is doing something
52:20successful. It's easy to change. In the
52:23US for example, if you're in college,
52:24you know, you may be stuck for 5 years
52:26even if it's not working, but you don't
52:28have the choice to change it, you know.
52:30And I think that's u that's one of the
52:32reasons why why Norway has done done
52:35well in sports um uh lately.
52:38>> What is your age right now, Marius?
52:40>> I'm born in 78. So I'm 48. And you know,
52:43I' I've done my threshold session. I I
52:46haven't missed a week uh at the since
52:4896.
52:50>> So, still still doing my workouts. Yeah.
52:53>> Incredible.
52:53>> So, I'm lucky.
52:55>> I just um I just turned 44.
52:58>> Ah, there you go.
52:59>> And uh it's it's one of those moments in
53:02my life where I set some of my personal
53:04best almost a decade ago in my running.
53:07And there have been other priorities
53:09since with the amount of running volume
53:10and whatnot. But deep inside there's
53:12still these questions of like I wonder
53:15if I still have like a personal best in
53:17me or at least like see what given
53:20today's circumstances
53:22>> Yeah. like things would be right like
53:24how has your mindset changed over the
53:27years because going from absolute elite
53:30worldclass Olympian athlete to focusing
53:35on other parts of your career.
53:37>> Yeah.
53:38>> How has that evolved even your viewpoint
53:40on running? Like I know you're you're
53:42obviously training less, you're training
53:44in a different way, but describe a
53:46little bit more that transition because
53:47I think there's quite a few people even
53:49listening
53:50>> that are going through similar changes
53:52as well mentally.
53:53>> I mean, I think first of all, you
53:54shouldn't underestimate the habit. You
53:56know, running for me, it's uh is a
53:59habit. I go up in the morning every day
54:01and I do my training and it's also part
54:03of of my identity. You know, it's
54:05something that I actually do. Um and I
54:08think it's important to uh remember that
54:10uh [clears throat] uh you can treat uh
54:14running and training as something that
54:15you will you do every day because you
54:18think it's important and you're trying
54:20to keep the habit going uh and not look
54:22for motivation. I talk to my patients
54:24about that as well. You know, some of
54:26them say, "Oh, you're so lucky. You're
54:27so motivated." And I don't uh think I'm
54:30motivated. I think I'm good at, you
54:32know, doing my my thing every day. Uh so
54:35now you know uh running is part of my
54:37life is part of being healthy you know
54:39taking care of my family and having the
54:41energy to do my job all of those things.
54:43So it's just a it's a just a it's a
54:45bigger thing.
54:46>> It really does become part of a routine
54:48and a habit just like brushing your
54:49teeth right when you know that it's a
54:51non-negotiable to be active in one way
54:53or another in the morning. Get it out of
54:55the way and those benefits carry for the
54:57rest of the day with you.
54:58>> Yeah. And the rest of your life. So
55:00everything is just you know and and
55:02again you know I've been in my my
55:05medical practice the same practice for
55:0715 years now. So you know a lot of my
55:09patients they know they go gone from
55:11being you know 55 60 when I started here
55:14and now they're in the 70s and I can see
55:16the shift what is happening to those
55:18that have been active the whole time and
55:20and not been any doing any training and
55:23it's just
55:24it's such a big difference uh and it
55:27it's it's I think it's a valuable uh
55:30thing to take with you that what you're
55:32doing in terms of activity and training
55:34doesn't even doesn't um just help you
55:36today but also for you know for the for
55:39the years that are coming.
55:40>> And for you, you are every day reminded
55:43of that. Every day you see people who
55:46>> proactively
55:48put in the work and there's people that
55:50are letting go or that have given up on
55:52putting in consistent effort.
55:54>> Exactly.
55:55>> Let's say there's someone listening
55:56right now and it would be a patient in
55:58your practice who's coming in and says,
56:01"I'm I'm struggling with getting out the
56:03door. I'm struggling with getting
56:05motivated to go to a workout.
56:07>> Yeah.
56:08>> Do you have any thoughts or what would
56:09you say to someone like that?
56:11>> Yeah. No, I would first of all ask them,
56:13you know, if you look on a p perspective
56:15maybe five or 10 years, you know, from
56:18now um uh in what way do you think you
56:22can make a habit going that you can
56:25continue doing for that long of a time?
56:27You need to have a long pers perspective
56:29and usually that's either you know
56:31connected to something else getting up
56:33the morning or after work or in the
56:35lunch or doing it together with
56:37somebody. So you start with kind of like
56:39looking at some pattern and I would ask
56:41them in a curious way you know how do
56:43you think that uh that can work and then
56:45I would teach them about how little you
56:48need to you know climb up that curve in
56:52terms of uh being in better shape. uh
56:55their studies three times four minutes
56:58each week. I mean 12 minutes per week
57:00and it has a huge effect on your actual
57:03physical shape. So I think we need to
57:05start uh with doing something like that
57:08very very very
57:10uh little but doing it over time you
57:14know
57:15>> and it's the the small things that start
57:17building up into momentum that gets the
57:19snowball rolling that
57:20>> and then you get the habit and then you
57:22get the identity and if you have habit
57:23and identity you're there
57:26>> 100%. There was one page in the book
57:29that I want to refer to. And first of
57:32all, where where's your book available?
57:33Where can people buy it?
57:35>> No, you can buy it on Amazon. It's uh
57:37it's published there. You can get it on
57:38pretty much any any Amazon store. And
57:40you that's one of the reasons why I
57:42publish it there is just to get it uh
57:44you know, easily available all over. Um
57:47so, uh yeah,
57:48>> there's a page in here 202. And this is
57:51about the thermal dial. This is cold
57:55after hard days and hot on easy days.
57:58>> I'm a huge fan of cold exposure, of heat
58:00exposure, sauna training, all of them.
58:03>> And here you talk about um a cold bath.
58:08>> So cold exposure.
58:10>> Yeah.
58:10>> And you talk about a hot bath with a
58:12cold cold exposure being about 5 to 12
58:16Celsius. So 41 to 54 Fahrenheit.
58:19>> Y
58:20>> with a hot bath being 38 to 42 C. So
58:23that's 100 to 108 Fahrenheit.
58:26>> Yeah.
58:26>> Talk to me about what you would do after
58:29what workout and in what sort of way.
58:31>> I mean this goes into muscle tone again.
58:33Uh how to bring the muscle tone in in as
58:36much balance as possible. And from my
58:38experience again uh if you on the easy
58:40days do the hot baths, you will bring
58:42the muscle tone down together with easy
58:44runs. So if you do easy running on the
58:46easy days and you do the hot baths, you
58:49bring it down um you know in a very
58:51effective way and get you itself ready
58:53for the next hard sessions. Uh on the
58:56other hand, if you're doing the whole
58:57cold baths after the hard workout, that
59:00will also help with that uh same um you
59:03know uh goal to get the muscle tone
59:05ready. Um, you know, there's studies
59:08that, uh, you know, say that you
59:09shouldn't be doing the cold baths after
59:11hard workout because it can interfere in
59:13terms of of how the muscles are
59:15responding. Um, but, uh, I think that's
59:18like that's a secondary thing here. Um,
59:21I'm, you know, talking about training
59:22and training structure, uh, based on
59:26muscle tone, muscle stress, and longtime
59:29performance. So, um, that's at least the
59:32experience I have. you have to uh think
59:35about where you do the different things
59:37and hot baths on the easy days and cold
59:40on the hard days. That's a is a good way
59:42to do it and it's not this is I would
59:44say small things but it's uh it's
59:47something that can be really really
59:48beneficial especially when you're going
59:50into peak season when you're trying to
59:53get you know the best legs possible.
59:56>> Yes. And so in the cold bath, you're
59:58saying within 1 hour of the hard session
1:00:01>> and then 10 to 15 minutes two to three
1:00:05times a week. Actually 10 to 15 minutes
1:00:07is quite long. I would say like you I
1:00:10would probably want to go towards the 54
1:00:12Fahrenheit because
1:00:15still I still do that now, you know. So
1:00:16it's not a problem. You have to get
1:00:18>> used like it's just more if I would
1:00:20envision myself sitting at 41
1:00:22Fahrenheit. So 5 Celsius for 10 15.
1:00:24That's that's quite a quite a while
1:00:26indeed. But you you do get used to
1:00:28things over time. I do
1:00:29>> and then then the hot bath about 15 to
1:00:3120 minutes. The hot bath are just super
1:00:33relaxing, right? It's I think it doesn't
1:00:36only help the muscle tone. Sometimes I
1:00:38do like an absent salt bath.
1:00:39>> Yeah.
1:00:40>> And I just feel I can sleep so well
1:00:41after and I just feel so calm to the
1:00:43nervous system. So
1:00:44>> Yeah. Exactly.
1:00:46>> Yeah. [snorts] Good. Um there's quite a
1:00:50few runners listening that are looking
1:00:53to become a stronger, a healthier, a
1:00:56happier athlete.
1:00:57>> Yeah.
1:00:58>> Do you have any advice to them? Anything
1:00:59that you feel like, hey, we've already
1:01:02discussed quite a few things, but this
1:01:03is what I would keep in mind as well.
1:01:05>> Yeah, I [clears throat] mean, um I think
1:01:07it's sort of in line with what we've
1:01:08been discussing before. Um uh try to
1:01:12think long term in in training and uh
1:01:15you know uh try to have a goal of uh
1:01:18getting uh more sessions where you're
1:01:21feeling you know springy and uh running
1:01:24with um I would say uh feeling a little
1:01:27bit left in the tank after the session
1:01:30because uh from my experience it's
1:01:32motivating to feel good on training
1:01:34sessions over time and you shouldn't
1:01:37again underestimate that. Um, so it
1:01:39helps for motivation. You know, you have
1:01:42less risk of injuries. You know, you
1:01:45mostly get better, but you also feel
1:01:47better doing the training. So instead of
1:01:50putting all the effort down in one
1:01:51really hard session and then having
1:01:53trouble the next week, you know, try to
1:01:55back a little bit off of training and
1:01:57then build from there, you know.
1:01:59>> So well said. You have a few different
1:02:02thoughts on carbon plate shoes as well,
1:02:06meaning
1:02:08you as a doctor see runners coming in
1:02:11with running injuries. What have you
1:02:13noticed now that running carbon plated
1:02:16shoes have been in the market for
1:02:17several several years?
1:02:18>> Yeah, I talk about that in the book.
1:02:20It's it's again since I've been in my
1:02:23practice here for for 15 years. You
1:02:25know, I' I've seen the the change that
1:02:28is has happened. You know, when I
1:02:30started my medical practice, I had zero
1:02:31patients in my practice. Now is 1270.
1:02:34It's part of the public system. So I
1:02:37start with what's called like a zero
1:02:38patient list. So what happens when I
1:02:41started I got all the runners you know
1:02:42from from the area into my patient list.
1:02:44So what I could see uh like from 201819
1:02:48when you got the new shoes going the
1:02:50carbon uh plate and late the foam uh I
1:02:55mean the change in injuries is just is a
1:02:57great shift. you have so a little
1:03:00Achilles trouble and knee trouble
1:03:02compared to before and so many more
1:03:04patients can actually run. Uh so that's
1:03:06why when when patients come to my
1:03:08practice with injuries I ask them what
1:03:10kind of shoes are you using and I ask
1:03:12them you know switch brand you know get
1:03:14another type of shoes and switch the
1:03:16brand around because it's so important
1:03:19and it's uh I never thought I would say
1:03:21that because when I was running you know
1:03:23shoes I mean they they say this is this
1:03:26is a good type of shoes with this kind
1:03:27of like system going but it didn't
1:03:29really matter. Now it matters a lot. So
1:03:32wild. But I will say though, the carbon
1:03:36plated shoes would work for runners
1:03:41more in a higher intensity kind of
1:03:44session versus you you probably wouldn't
1:03:46want to do all of your low intensity
1:03:47runs in carblated.
1:03:48>> No, of course not. No, you get some some
1:03:50good foam shoes. And you can also
1:03:51discuss you know should be do you doing
1:03:53you know different type of training to
1:03:55to you know strengthen your your uh your
1:03:59legs a little bit by not having that
1:04:01much of a help from the shoes you know
1:04:04uh but the situation where I'm coming
1:04:06from I see you know what a high
1:04:08percentage of runners are actually under
1:04:11muscular overload so my thinking is this
1:04:14most will benefit from whatever help
1:04:16they can get to get the load off the
1:04:18system you know
1:04:19>> I I I mean, the evidence is undeniable
1:04:22and and I think just the feeling of
1:04:25running on carbon plated shoes versus
1:04:26non-carbon plated shoes.
1:04:28>> Yeah, I know. It's good.
1:04:30>> When you're well trained and you feel
1:04:31like I think carbon plated shoes is
1:04:34icing on the cake, meaning you still
1:04:35want to put in the volume, you want to
1:04:37sleep well, eat well, recover well.
1:04:39>> Yeah. Then when the body is clicking and
1:04:41you have that springy feeling you're
1:04:42talking about putting on a fresh pair of
1:04:45carbon plated shoes that have that nice
1:04:47pop in it. It does feel wonderful.
1:04:49Absolutely.
1:04:50>> And it's it's good with age. You know,
1:04:51you can get better and better shoes and
1:04:53they get older and older so you can run
1:04:55faster and faster. You know, it's is our
1:04:57only hope. [laughter]
1:05:01>> What do you have any specific running
1:05:02goals from your end? Anything that
1:05:04you're excited about? No, I mean my my
1:05:07goal is just to continue um you know
1:05:09training and continue
1:05:12being able to train hard also. You know
1:05:14once a week I run my 45 50 uh you know
1:05:17really really tough I would say and I
1:05:20can still do that year after year and my
1:05:22goal is to just be able to do that uh
1:05:25for as long as I can. So I'm still
1:05:28trying to control the training. I don't
1:05:30I don't do like that meter workouts
1:05:32anymore, you know. I I kind of know
1:05:34where I am. So, but I'm doing the heart
1:05:36rate, I'm doing the the monitoring. So,
1:05:39I'm just trying to, you know, use uh
1:05:41what I've been um writing about in my
1:05:44own training as well. And, you know,
1:05:46that's um that's what I'm enjoying
1:05:48actually.
1:05:49>> To those who are unfamiliar with the
1:05:504515, can you describe that?
1:05:53>> It's a session where you do 45 seconds
1:05:55running on a 15-second recovery. It's
1:05:57just a strange type of a session because
1:06:00from my experience you can go very hard
1:06:01on it and you will not get that much of
1:06:04a negative effect in terms of muscle
1:06:06tone afterwards. Uh I think it's due to
1:06:08the short recoveries and and the the the
1:06:11time that you're actually pushing is is
1:06:13is long enough that you actually get
1:06:16some sustained stimuli on the on the
1:06:19actual run. So it's just like a a
1:06:21session that is balancing the running
1:06:23length and the recovery in such a way
1:06:26that uh recovery [clears throat] time is
1:06:28remarkably low even going over the
1:06:31threshold. Um so that's why I'm using it
1:06:33of course still to to get into to or to
1:06:36keep in shape and I see the same if you
1:06:39you know coming back from uh illness for
1:06:41example or if you you know you had time
1:06:43off you know use that session to bring
1:06:45yourself into the normal condition
1:06:48again. So it's a fun session and it's a
1:06:51very effective session and also the
1:06:53recoveries will protect you because you
1:06:55know you have just so little time and I
1:06:58think also it has to do with muscle
1:06:59tone. You get some muscle tone decrease
1:07:02in the small breaks
1:07:03>> and is that a recovery jog or is that a
1:07:05walk?
1:07:06>> Walk usually if you're doing the
1:07:07marathon you can do the jog but if
1:07:09you're doing uh you know walk or
1:07:11standing still like on the side of the
1:07:13treadmill that's the main point. Just
1:07:15you know you're off and you're on.
1:07:16You're off and you're on. For a
1:07:18recreational runner listening to this,
1:07:20how many of those would you do in a row?
1:07:22>> Now, usually 20 to 30,
1:07:25you know, not not more than 30. I mean,
1:07:27you can do 15, of course, also. Um, so
1:07:30yeah,
1:07:31>> that is a solid session. It is but you
1:07:34know still you know if you look on the
1:07:36number of of uh minutes you're actually
1:07:38running and if you look on the
1:07:40limitation that the recovery will will
1:07:42put on you you know it's not that uh
1:07:44that much of a a workload I would say.
1:07:49>> What do you see or because you're saying
1:07:51you can go over your lactate or over
1:07:53your lectate so over three and a half or
1:07:56four of course um and then
1:07:58>> you have the 15 seconds to recover
1:08:00again. So you you'll probably at the
1:08:02beginning start seeing your heart rate
1:08:03go up, recover a bit and then towards
1:08:06the end it's just zigzagging.
1:08:08>> It's not able to recover that much
1:08:09because you only got 15 seconds, right?
1:08:11>> Yeah. And then even in terms of heart
1:08:13rate, even if you're doing at the
1:08:14threshold, you will see that the heart
1:08:15rate is much higher than it normally
1:08:17would. So you kind of you're driving the
1:08:19system without getting uh that much uh
1:08:23of like mechanical load on the legs or
1:08:25you you know you're able to buffer
1:08:27things in the short recoveries while the
1:08:30heart is still going on a very very high
1:08:33uh frequency. So something is going on
1:08:35there and it's quite fascinating. I
1:08:37think
1:08:38>> we have so many more things to talk
1:08:40about Mario. [laughter]
1:08:41>> Seriously maybe next time.
1:08:43>> No like I mentioned I'm I'm going to
1:08:45come visit you in Norway at some point.
1:08:47You're welcome.
1:08:48>> Um, yeah, I'm going to sit down with you
1:08:50in person. I'm going to sit down with
1:08:51Dr. Syler and I want to go run with
1:08:53Jacob and I want to like there's a
1:08:55variety of different athletes I want to
1:08:57um connect with. So, that will be that
1:08:59would be wonderful. Tell me um a little
1:09:02bit more where can people find more
1:09:04about your work um like your different
1:09:07social channels that you're active on?
1:09:08>> Yeah. No, I mean um most of my writing
1:09:12from prior is atmarisbuck.com. I started
1:09:14uh blogging there in 2000, so 26 years
1:09:17ago. And it's all the original articles
1:09:19are still at uh at my uh my website. So,
1:09:22so that's where I put out my my stuff
1:09:25and like you mentioned the book uh is at
1:09:27uh is at Amazon of course and uh uh
1:09:30those are my main uh main places.
1:09:33>> Absolutely loved reading the book. Very
1:09:35very well done. There's
1:09:38>> literally like we only went through
1:09:40onethird of the topics and the questions
1:09:41that we have talked about. So, there's
1:09:43going to be an [laughter] second
1:09:45session. Uh, really looking forward to
1:09:47that and um yeah, wishing you all the
1:09:50best over here with
1:09:51>> with the book and and with all of the
1:09:54the sessions running. I'm I'm I'm
1:09:57totally going to do the 4515 session
1:09:59this week. I'm really looking forward to
1:10:00getting
1:10:03[laughter]
1:10:04>> awesome. Thanks so much. We'll talk more
1:10:06soon again.
1:10:06>> Okay. Thank you so much.
1:10:07>> All right. Bye now.
1:10:08>> Bye. Thanks so much for listening. I've
1:10:10been having a lot of fun with some of
1:10:12the workouts that Mario has mentioned in
1:10:14this conversation. For example, the 4515
1:10:18workout. I've done it a few times right
1:10:20now. Plenty of different learnings. It's
1:10:22quite easy to overdo it on some of them,
1:10:24but that 15-second recovery after a 45se
1:10:27secondond push. It's wild how the heart
1:10:29rate starts coming down and then you
1:10:31feel like you can push it fairly hard
1:10:33again. That there's a lot to uncover
1:10:35there, but I would say that's one
1:10:36workout that I would challenge you to uh
1:10:38experiment with. It's a really fun one.
1:10:40I would love to hear from you. What was
1:10:42your favorite lesson, takeaway, or quote
1:10:44from this conversation? Please let me
1:10:46know in the comments below on YouTube.
1:10:48Last week, I released a podcast episode
1:10:50with Penny, the marathon runner, 75
1:10:53years old, who have made a lot of
1:10:55progress over the years, and I loved
1:10:57seeing the feedback on that conversation
1:10:59in particular. I think within a few days
1:11:01it already had 30,000 views on YouTube
1:11:03and the thing just keeps getting more
1:11:05people just sharing what kind of hope it
1:11:08gave them to like run their stronger
1:11:10years into their 50s 60s7s and beyond.
1:11:13So I would love to hear from you if you
1:11:14have any input on future guests. What
1:11:17type of guests would you like to see? I
1:11:19have a variety of different guests on my
1:11:20bucket list but it's not always like the
1:11:23most elite athlete or coach or
1:11:25worldclass expert. I think even
1:11:26recreational runners who have an
1:11:28interesting story to tell could be very
1:11:30fascinating to take a deep dive in. So,
1:11:32I would love to hear from you in the
1:11:34comments below about that as well. One
1:11:35of my upcoming races is going to be the
1:11:38CIM relay race, which is the first time
1:11:41I'm ever running a marathon relay. I'm
1:11:43going to be doing it together with a
1:11:44friend. So, one person is running the
1:11:45first half and then the other person is
1:11:47running the second half. It's going to
1:11:48be a blast. I'm going to be out there
1:11:50and we'll probably end up setting up
1:11:52some type of group run, some kind of
1:11:54shakeout, a coffee or whatnot. So, if
1:11:56anyone else is running CIM this year, I
1:11:59would love to see several of you guys
1:12:00out there. All right, have fun out there
1:12:02on your runs. Bye now.

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