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The Narcissism Doctor: "1 In 6 People Are Narcissists!" How To Spot Them & Can They Change? — Transcript

by The Diary Of A CEO · 19,654 words · 3,054 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00We believe one in six people are
0:02narcissistic and exposure can become a
0:05life or death situation. But the key
0:07step to identify narcissism is Dr.
0:10Ramani Durvasula
0:12licensed clinical psychologist
0:14the world's leading expert on
0:16narcissism.
0:17All narcissism is on the spectrum. At
0:20the lowest ends it's Instagram saviors.
0:22But severe end of the spectrum you're
0:23talking about a cult leader. They have
0:25low empathy. They will dominate people.
0:27They have to get the last word. They get
0:29angry very quickly and that's just the
0:31top of the iceberg.
0:33What about the impacts of narcissism on
0:35relationships?
0:36Narcissistic people, they can go out in
0:38the world and they're able to be
0:40charming and charismatic. And
0:41narcissistic relationships start strong.
0:44They want to get you quick and then it
0:45becomes dismissiveness, manipulation,
0:48gaslighting. The world thinks this
0:50person's fantastic. A lot of people say,
0:53"Aren't you lucky that you're married to
0:55that guy?" And behind closed doors they
0:57psychologically destroy you. Narcissism
0:59in work. How do I know if my boss is a
1:02narcissist? You're going to feel it in
1:04the sense of you don't feel seen, you
1:05don't feel valued, you feel like the
1:07workplace is unpredictable, you might
1:09even feel that it's psychologically
1:11unsafe. What about world leaders? If our
1:14adversary in another country is a
1:15narcissist, would we rather our leader
1:17be a narcissist as well? That's a
1:19fantastic question and I think So, the
1:22big question. How do you know if you are
1:25a narcissist? And can you cure
1:28narcissism? So, here's where we get into
1:30some interesting muddy waters.
1:34It's absolutely crazy to me that so many
1:36of you have decided to watch our show um
1:38and so many of you have decided to
1:39subscribe to our show. We now have 5
1:41million subscribers on YouTube which is
1:43a number that I just can't comprehend
1:45and it's a dream that I absolutely never
1:47could have had. We started The Diary of
1:49a CEO just over 3 years ago now and in
1:51my wildest expectations we might have
1:53had 100,000 subscribers by now. So, you
1:56can imagine how shocked I am
1:58that so many of you have chosen to tune
2:00into these conversations every week um
2:03and spend some time with us. So, thank
2:05you. And I made a deal with you. I made
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2:08show, that we would continue to raise
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2:23The production's going to change. We're
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2:36get on with the episode.
2:44Dr. Ramani. Mhm.
2:46You've committed so much of your life
2:48and your energy to the subject of
2:49narcissism.
2:52Why does it matter? Oh, it matters so
2:54much because exposure to people who have
2:57narcissistic personalities
3:00shapes how people's identity develops,
3:02shapes how their personality develops.
3:05Or if the first time you encounter a
3:06narcissistic person is in adulthood, it
3:09can actually sort of hijack that sense
3:11of identity. It can really steal a
3:14person away from themselves.
3:16And we I think it's so important because
3:19we haven't given ourselves permission, I
3:22think as a culture, as a field of mental
3:23health, to identify this as a problem
3:27and allow people to have better
3:29responses. In a way, it's almost viewed
3:31as sort of not being very nice to say
3:34that narcissistic people are not very
3:36nice. It's a strange paradox in the
3:39world of mental health. That's why I do
3:40it, because nothing more than me wanting
3:43to return people back to their authentic
3:45selves. You must have seen the cost of
3:48narcissism.
3:49Can you give me some examples of the
3:52cost that a narcissist has had on
3:54someone's life that you've seen. Mhm.
3:55Oh.
3:56Where do I begin? I'll tell you cost is
3:59a person who so doesn't believe in
4:01themselves that they may give up on
4:03their path of education and never pursue
4:06an interest. So, we never got to see the
4:08work product that that would have
4:10created. Not to mention that person
4:12actually getting to unfurl their wings
4:14and fully be who they wanted to be as a
4:17creative or as a professional.
4:19It's the person who knew what they
4:22wanted to be, that they had a very
4:23strong identity as pick something,
4:26and they ended up choosing something
4:28else because they knew the only way they
4:30could be loved was to be what that
4:32parent demanded of them, and it was so
4:34clear to them they wouldn't be loved
4:36unless they fully gave in to what that
4:39parent expected of them. It's the person
4:42who is an absolutely glorious human
4:45being, lovely, empathetic, and warm, but
4:48feels so damaged after years of being
4:51told, "You're not enough. You're
4:52selfish. You're greedy. You're foolish."
4:55that they get into relationship after
4:57relationship that duplicates that theme
5:01and don't get the real collaborative,
5:03compassionate love story that they
5:05deserve because they don't think they
5:08deserve it. And that's just the tip of
5:10the iceberg. And your academic
5:12background, your the experience that
5:14you're drawing from, what is that
5:16experience? So, my my experience is in
5:18in my academic background is I have a
5:19PhD in clinical psychology, and my
5:22minor's in something called health
5:23psychology. And so, I got really
5:25interested in how various elements of
5:28mental health and mental illness showed
5:29up in people who had co-occurring
5:31medical conditions. So, it's a very
5:33almost like strange point to enter, but
5:35what we do know is people personality
5:38affects how we take care of our health,
5:40how we might engage in behaviors that
5:41might put our health at risk. For
5:43example, narcissism and addiction have a
5:45really high overlap. So, here's a case
5:47of now a personality style putting a
5:50person at health risk due to using
5:53substances to regulate and then all the
5:54things that would come of that. But,
5:56it's tough to measure personality,
5:58Stephen. It's really hard to measure.
5:59It's not one of those things It's not
6:01like a blood test. It's not even like
6:02measuring depression. Frankly,
6:04depression is eminently measurable.
6:06Yeah, there's different variants and
6:08there's different severity, but we're
6:10very clear diagnostically and
6:12phenomenologically what makes
6:14depression. What qualifies? Personality
6:16is like the wild west. And so, from a
6:18research perspective, it's something
6:21that people would often shy away from
6:23cuz we couldn't get the constructs
6:24right. But, I said I welcome the
6:26challenge because I truly in my heart
6:29believed if we could understand and
6:31study personality more, we'd actually be
6:34understanding all this unmeasurable
6:36noise in the mental health research cuz
6:38I thought that's probably where it was.
6:40And I think more and more of the
6:41research is supporting that.
6:43And do you spend time, even today,
6:46dealing with patients
6:48who are the victim of a narcissistic
6:51relationship or the victim of a
6:53narcissist? Every week. Every week. I
6:55mean, it's it's probably one of the if
6:57not the most gratifying part of my week.
7:00I'm a big believer that if you're a
7:01mental health practitioner, you practice
7:03mental health. So, that's a privilege to
7:06be able to be in that room and to work
7:07with clients. But,
7:09it would be so easy when you're dealing
7:11at a macro level, large populations
7:14going on YouTube, writing books, to get
7:16distanced from what is happening to
7:19individual people's lives. One of the
7:21tricky bits with research is we study
7:23populations. We study samples, right? We
7:25study hundreds of people.
7:26What happens in the room is something
7:28very different. And you start to
7:30recognize A, how badly these
7:32relationships harm people, their schemas
7:35of the world, their schemas of
7:36themselves. And B, how much potential
7:39for intervention there is with these
7:41clients through very very simple
7:43approaches around education about
7:45narcissism, validation of their
7:47experience, breaking through self-blame,
7:49and teaching them to trust themselves.
7:51So, how many patients do you think
7:53you've seen that have been victims of
7:55narcissists? I mean, hundreds. Hundreds,
7:58really. And I even use the word
7:59survivor. I hate to call them victims
8:01cuz I don't even think they're that
8:02passive. I mean, I think that they just
8:04weren't No one ever taught anyone this,
8:06right? I'll give you the example. When
8:08people are in a relationship with
8:10somebody who's living with addiction,
8:12it's very clear what they're dealing
8:13with, right? You have a person, they're
8:16using a substance that's altering them,
8:18that's altering their behavior, that's
8:20taking them away from who they are.
8:21Person People in relationships with
8:23addicts will say, "I'm in two
8:24relationships. I'm in a relationship
8:26with a sober person, and I'm in a
8:28relationship with somebody who's using
8:29or intoxicated or denying or defending
8:32their use, right? Two people. And it
8:34breaks the people in those
8:35relationships, and we're willing to call
8:36it that.
8:38The experience people have in
8:39narcissistic relationships in a way is
8:40no different with the added bit though
8:43that at least with addiction people can
8:44say, "I see what the behavior is. I see
8:46what the issue is. Addiction's a
8:48disease, and we know it's treatable."
8:50Narcissism, not so much. And on top of
8:53that, the narcissistic person has this
8:56very well-developed, very successful
8:59behavioral repertoire. They can go out
9:01in the world and they're able to be
9:02charming and charismatic and confident
9:05and smart and the center of attention
9:07and running companies,
9:08and behind closed doors,
9:10they psychologically eviscerate the
9:12people they're with.
9:14Spouses, partners, family members, close
9:16friends, maybe people who are below them
9:19in an organization, people where they
9:20can kind of get away with it. So, the
9:22people they're harming, the world thinks
9:24this person's fantastic. At least the
9:26person who's in a relationship with an
9:27addict, people will say, "Okay, I get
9:28it. They're using. This is hard." But
9:30for the folks in narcissistic
9:31relationships, a lot of people say,
9:33"Aren't you lucky that you're married to
9:36that guy?" And the person's like, "Oh my
9:38gosh, are these people out of their
9:39mind?" Like, so what do they do? They
9:41blame themselves.
9:45Okay.
9:46What is narcissism? Mhm.
9:50Because
9:51I've heard the word used so often, but I
9:54couldn't tell you the definition of it.
9:55And I feel like I'd butcher the
9:57definition of what it is. Mhm. So, I'm
10:00almost curious to ask you, what just
10:02before I almost contaminate you with a
10:04with what my definition is, what's your
10:07working definition? What's your working
10:09model of what narcissism is? Um
10:11delusions of grandeur, someone that
10:13thinks they're like super important and
10:14that they are better than everybody
10:16else, arrogance,
10:18um and they're cruel. Okay. All right,
10:21so I I would give you probably like a
10:24C+ B- if you're a student in my class. I
10:26mean, I I I cut students a lot of slack
10:28back in the day. So, I'll give you a C+
10:30B-. Because you're in the neighborhood,
10:32right? The grandiosity,
10:35the arrogance,
10:37the the meanness, but that to me is even
10:39more sort of a manifestation of all the
10:41traits, like the grandiosity, the
10:42arrogance. They have variable empathy
10:44and typically have low empathy. They're
10:47deeply entitled. They truly think
10:49they're more special than everyone else
10:51and that the rules should apply to them
10:53very differently. They have a excessive
10:57need for admiration and validation.
11:00They're very superficial. They don't
11:02really have the capacity for deep
11:04sustained intimate relationships.
11:07They're very much referential to the
11:08world out there out outside of them to
11:10set goals. They don't have a good
11:11internal sense of like what matters to
11:13me, what what do I want to do? They just
11:15want to do what they do again to get
11:17that admiration and validation. There's
11:19a shallowness, a real emotional
11:21shallowness to narcissism. Those are the
11:23patterns and traits we sort of see.
11:25They're very very self-centered, very
11:28preoccupied with themselves, the good
11:29parts of themselves, the bad parts of
11:31themselves. It's very rare for them to
11:33sort of lift their heads up and
11:34genuinely notice the experience of
11:36another person. That's what narcissism
11:38is. How does it show up? It shows up as
11:41devaluation, dismissiveness,
11:44manipulation, gaslighting.
11:47They get angry very quickly, especially
11:49when they're frustrated or disappointed,
11:51and that can show up as overt rage or
11:53overt anger, yelling, screaming, or even
11:55violence. That can show up as passive
11:57aggression, withholding, and
11:59withdrawing. They are They can be They
12:02are prone to betrayal. They lie. They
12:04cheat. They make promises about the
12:06future they never keep, but they do that
12:08to keep people around so they won't
12:10leave them. So, it's It's part of a
12:11larger sort of a manipulation. They will
12:14dominate people. They have to get the
12:15last word. They will shift blame onto
12:18other people. They will rarely take
12:19responsibility for their misdeeds, even
12:22when they're clearly caught in them. And
12:23if they do, they'll still blame the
12:25other person. They're very neglectful
12:28and careless in relationships. That is
12:30narcissism.
12:33How can you tell the difference between
12:35someone having a bad day, an [ __ ]
12:38and a narcissist? Because some of those
12:39things there I thought, you know, on a
12:41bad day I might do that. Yeah. You know,
12:43um the whole collection together, no.
12:46But on a bad day when I haven't slept, I
12:48go, "You know what? I might
12:50blame someone or whatever else." What's
12:52the distinction? When a person has a bad
12:54day, and we all have bad days, and on
12:56those bad days, we might look like all
12:58the If the only take someone had of us
13:01was of that day, ooh, right? But the
13:03Here's the piece.
13:05When people are not narcissistic and
13:07they have bad days, they will
13:10take accountability. They will make
13:12amends, and they will change their
13:13behavior and say, "I'm not doing this
13:15again. This is This is not okay." Why
13:17wasn't it okay? Because it was none of
13:19those people's fault you didn't get
13:20enough sleep. And whether that means we
13:22reach deeper to be as kind as we can to
13:25the people. In some cases, especially if
13:26it's people we know or we see again. You
13:29may not know the random person at the
13:30gym, but if we someone we know or work
13:33with, we step we step out of ourselves
13:34to say the way I conducted myself
13:36yesterday wasn't okay and I'm really
13:38sorry about that.
13:39And so that that they're having that
13:41experience of you taking accountability.
13:44That's where I know we're not dealing
13:46with a narcissistic person, we're
13:47dealing with a bad day. And a bad day is
13:49just that, a day. It's not every day.
13:52With a narcissistic person, many days
13:55I'm not going to say all, but many days
13:57are characterized by these machinations,
14:00these manipulations, and these
14:01invalidations. If the person in a
14:03relationship with a narcissistic person
14:05feel like they're constantly on their
14:06back foot, that they can't be
14:08themselves, they can't express a need,
14:10they can't express a want, they can't
14:11even express a feeling for fear of it
14:13being shut down. So, there's your So,
14:16there's your not narcissistic person.
14:19What about an [ __ ] okay? I do think
14:22assholery and narcissism are pretty We
14:25You know, they're they're We use the
14:26terms interchangeably.
14:28I think though that here's my here's my
14:30[ __ ] belief since this is something
14:32since I think the construct validation
14:34on [ __ ] is probably still needing to
14:36be done.
14:37I think [ __ ] tend to be pretty
14:39consistently [ __ ] So, whereas
14:41narcissistic people can really they have
14:44a much
14:45wider behavioral repertoire. To be
14:48absolutely charming This is a person who
14:50can be absolutely charming on the golf
14:53course with the CEO of their company.
14:55Like charming, nice, warm, remembering
14:58the ages of their kids, and asking about
15:01the wife, and remembering that their
15:02grandmother is sick, and all this stuff.
15:05And get home,
15:06forget it was his anniversary, scream at
15:09their partner, "Why is the house like
15:11look like this? Why do I have to put up
15:13with this? Make those damn kids shut
15:16up."
15:17But they were Mr. "I remember that your
15:19little girl's birthday is February 6th"
15:21when they were on the golf course. That
15:23is not assholery. That's narcissism. Can
15:26you cure narcissism?
15:28In your opinion? No, I don't because I
15:30think that would imply changing a
15:31personality which I don't think we can
15:33do.
15:35Is there any evidence? Have you ever
15:37seen in your 20 years of working with
15:40narcissists and their survivors
15:43any sign of a narcissist becoming a not
15:46narcissist or a non-narcissist? I've not
15:48seen them become a not narcissist. I
15:49we've seen them make micro changes cuz I
15:53measure and monitor and make my notes in
15:55therapy. So I'll see, "Interesting.
15:57They're no longer trying to mess with
15:59coming in 10 minutes later and asking me
16:01to keep them for the whole hour. They
16:03are honoring the therapeutic frame.
16:05They're paying the bill when they decide
16:07not to show up at the last minute." I'll
16:09see tiny tweaks. I'll see people who'll
16:11come in and say,
16:13"I screamed at my girlfriend again last
16:15night and that wasn't cool." So I was
16:17like, "Whoa. Whoa. That's insight." Like
16:19I'll run with it. But here's the rub,
16:21okay? These micro changes, and they are
16:24micro changes, but they are changes and
16:25they're in the right direction.
16:28That much water under the under the
16:29bridge for the family members and
16:32partners and other people that have been
16:33harmed. They're saying, "You want me to
16:35stay in this relationship cuz this dude
16:36remembered to say thank you once this
16:38week?" I think not. To me, the thank you
16:40is progress. To the people in their
16:42lives who've been harmed, that one thank
16:44you is not going to be enough.
16:47When I was looking at the subject of
16:49narcissism and I was looking at what
16:51people are searching around the subject
16:53matter,
16:54I could see no searches online for
16:58is my wife a narcissist?
17:00But I saw lots of searches for is my
17:02husband a narcissist?
17:04Really? Yes. So I wondered,
17:07is narcissism a gender-specific thing?
17:10And in what proportion do you typically
17:12see men and women being narcissists?
17:14Yeah, no, it's not gender-specific. I'm
17:15so shocked at that because I've worked
17:17with so many men
17:19who have narcissistic wives or or female
17:21partners. And I've worked with many
17:24I've met worked with many lesbian
17:25couples. I've I mean I've worked with
17:28cases where clearly it was a woman,
17:31female identified person, who was
17:32narcissistic. It is definitely not
17:34limited to men. So here's what we know.
17:37Grandiose narcissism, much more common
17:40in men.
17:41Malignant narcissism, much more common
17:44in men.
17:45But there's a form of narcissism
17:48called vulnerable narcissism.
17:51Vulnerable narcissism isn't so much of
17:53the showy, charismatic, charming, look
17:55at me, arrogant,
17:57salesy, attention-seeking narcissist.
18:01The vulnerable narcissist is more
18:04socially anxious,
18:06victimized, sullen, resentful,
18:10aggrieved. And often we sort of see a
18:11failure to launch, right? There's sort
18:13of a I'm angry at the world. How come I
18:15never got my turn? You know, makes me
18:17How come she got that? And you know, I I
18:20was better than him. I should have
18:21gotten that. There's like
18:22Victimhood. Yeah, victimhood, okay?
18:24That's called vulnerable narcissism,
18:26right? When we look at vulnerable
18:28narcissism, gender balanced.
18:31Okay, so these other types of
18:32narcissism, you named four types there.
18:34Grandiose narcissism. Right, so that's
18:36our traditional sort of garden variety
18:38narcissism, the showy, charismatic,
18:40pretentious, preening, charming,
18:43attention-seeking, actually quite often
18:46quite successful narcissistic person.
18:48Unlike the vulnerable narcissist who are
18:50failure to launch, the grandiose
18:52narcissistic people often have big big
18:54dreams and they'll execute. Not always,
18:56not always, and they'll often burn
18:57bridges because they are in fact
18:59narcissistic, so they'll anger people or
19:01do shady deals or cut people out and all
19:03that stuff. But the grandiose
19:05narcissistic folks are often the larger
19:07than life folks. Now, if they are angry
19:10at you, if they feel let down by you,
19:12they will let you know. They can be very
19:13vindictive. They are not going to be
19:15very honest in a relationship. They're
19:17probably going to betray you. They're
19:18going to be mean to their partners. We
19:20can count on that, too. But, to the
19:22world at large, larger than life. That's
19:24the typical model. Now, the vulnerable
19:26narcissism is what I narcissist is what
19:28I just shared with you. That more of
19:30vulnerable, victimized Sorry,
19:32victimized, socially anxious, angry,
19:35aggrieved, sullen, resentful,
19:38failure-to-launch narcissist. Okay? Some
19:40people would argue they're one in the
19:41same. That as long as a grandiose
19:43narcissistic person is well supplied,
19:45things are going well, they're getting
19:47lots of attention, they're making money,
19:49they're they're just sort of feeling
19:50like they're they're the person, they're
19:52good, then they're going to they're
19:54going to stay in their grandiose mode.
19:56However, if the thing tips
19:59and things everything goes wrong for the
20:00grandiose narcissist, they lose the
20:02money, they lose the job, they lose the
20:03partner, they lose social status, the
20:06vulnerable stuff will start showing up.
20:08The victimhood, the resentment This is a
20:11witch hunt. Everyone's out to get me.
20:12Can almost feel sort of low-grade
20:14paranoid. You're either more one than
20:17another. So, the vulnerable narcissist
20:19could definitely have a grandiose moment
20:21if everything turned for them, but some
20:23people are just more grandiose, some
20:25people are more vulnerable, but they do
20:26have the other underbelly. That's just
20:28That's how that looks. Now, the
20:29malignant narcissist, which is another
20:31type I talked about,
20:33this is where we see the most severe
20:35form.
20:36And that when I say most severe, most
20:37severe in terms of how it shows up in
20:39relationships. So, I'd say the most
20:40problematic form of narcissism. And
20:42here's where we see a form of narcissism
20:45that shows up as manipulativeness,
20:47exploitativeness, a willingness to take
20:49advantage of people,
20:51um coerciveness, isolation, using menace
20:55as a tool of control, very vindictive,
20:57dangerous. It could be quite dangerous.
20:59Um this This is what I always say,
21:01malignant narcissism is the last stop on
21:03the train before you hit psychopathy
21:05station, because this is as close to
21:07psychopathy as you're going to get
21:08without it being psychopathy. And in
21:10fact, there's a personality model called
21:12the dark tetrad. And the dark tetrad is
21:15comprised of narcissism, psychopathy,
21:19Machiavellianism, which is sort of like
21:21that willingness to use other people for
21:23your own advantage, and sadism.
21:25I personally think there should be a
21:26fifth bit, which is paranoia, cuz I
21:28think these folks can be really think
21:30everyone's out to get them, but the
21:31model right now is those four pieces,
21:33right? Malignant narcissism has a lot of
21:35those top notes. The calculated, callous
21:39coldness, the shallow charm, the shallow
21:41superficial charm, intelligence, um the
21:45lack of empathy, the in some ways
21:48getting some pleasure out of seeing
21:51someone who wronged them being hurt. So,
21:53again, it feels more dangerous, and
21:55that's malignant narcissism.
21:57Is that your serial killers? I would say
21:59the serial killers are probably more
22:01psychopathic, and psychopathy is
22:03definitely a different subtype. It's
22:05different. Psychopathy is something
22:06different than malignant narcissism.
22:08They're not the same thing. They They
22:10They They look different even
22:12genetically and all and and they look
22:14different probably look different in the
22:15brain. Psychopathic people have um
22:18They don't have remorse. They don't feel
22:20guilt. Whereas malignant narcissistic
22:22people may They know they did something
22:24wrong. A psychopathic person, it's
22:26almost as though they don't understand
22:28what they did wrong. Not because they
22:29have a mental deficit, but because they
22:31literally have zero capacity for
22:33empathy. And the fourth type of
22:35narcissism?
22:36So, I gave you vulnerable, grandiose,
22:38malignant, and the fourth type is
22:40communal narcissism. Right? Grandiose,
22:42malignant, vulnerable. Yes, the fourth
22:44type is communal narcissism. Communal
22:46narcissism's very interesting. It's a
22:48relatively new construct in the field.
22:50It came around 2003 is when I started
22:52reading some of the first papers by a
22:54guy named Gebauer. I think he was
22:56writing at his university in Munich at
22:57the time. And
22:59I I loved the work. I thought it was
23:01absolutely compelling because it was
23:04this idea that there were people out
23:07there
23:08who were going to get their narcissistic
23:10supply not to the usual look at me, I'm
23:13so great. I'm going to do things so
23:14people tell me I'm great, but by doing
23:17good deeds, by being perceived as
23:19saviors, by being perceived as grand
23:22rescuers, humanitarians.
23:24So, the communal narcissist is a person
23:26who gets their narcissistic supply,
23:28their praise, or admiration, and their
23:30awe
23:31by doing these good deeds. And that's
23:33the motivation for doing the good deeds,
23:35not the good deed in and of itself, not
23:37because you care about a refugee group,
23:40not because you care about the plight of
23:42animals, but because you want to be
23:44viewed as a good dude. And so, that's
23:46the communal narcissist. Now,
23:48what gets interesting like with all
23:50forms of narcissism, all narcissism's on
23:52a spectrum. It's not an either/or. From
23:54mild to severe, all of mental health is
23:56on a spectrum. There's no such thing as
23:58a black and white dichotomy in mental
24:00health. It's It's It's mild to severe,
24:02mild to severe. And what's interesting
24:04with communal narcissism, at the lowest
24:06ends, it's sort of like you're more like
24:08Instagram saviors. Like, look at me, I'm
24:10saving the world, but you know, like
24:11they're cleaning up the beach in their
24:13bikini. And I'm like, is this about how
24:14attractive you are or is this about
24:15really trying to save the environment?
24:17Like, it really is about Are we talking
24:18about abs or are we talking about trash
24:21in the street? Like, what are we talking
24:22about? But they want the validation.
24:24Like, what a cool person you are for
24:26spending your weekend saving elephants.
24:28They're relatively harmless, they're
24:30moderately ridiculous, but they do get
24:32angry if people don't give them a big
24:34bravo for how huma- humanitarian they
24:36are. You take communal narcissism all
24:39the way to the severe end of the
24:40spectrum, you're talking about a cult
24:41leader. These are now people who are
24:43saying, "I have the answer to the
24:45universe. I know everything. I know you
24:47better than you." They'll bring people
24:49into cultic systems. They will
24:51completely, you know, separate them from
24:54their sense of self and their sense of
24:55self-worth, have no problem doing it,
24:58and tell them that they're doing them a
24:59good thing the whole time. That's to me
25:01your
25:02severe cult leader or
25:04I think all cult leader cult leader
25:06forget severe a cult leader is really
25:08probably where communal and malignant
25:10narcissism come together.
25:13The big question, how many people are
25:16narcissists?
25:17This is a big question because our
25:18problem is this, there's really no good
25:21studies about this. It's tough to
25:22measure narcissism. Who's really going
25:23to cop to being really entitled or
25:26really manipulative? You often don't get
25:28people who are going to answer those
25:29questions in an honest open way.
25:32When we look at the prevalence of
25:34narcissistic personality disorder that
25:36are done in what we call large-scale
25:37epidemiologic studies, we see the rates
25:39to be somewhere between 1 and 6% but
25:41that's the diagnosis and that's in
25:43really structured research settings.
25:46Narcissism is a person who has enough of
25:48the narcissistic personality style to be
25:50noticeable to be experienced by others.
25:52It's a spitball number cuz we've never
25:54done the numbers so I'd say if you
25:56spitball number is probably sitting
25:57somewhere between
25:5915 and 18%. I think that's a good guess
26:01about one in six people. I think if
26:03you're in a major metropolitan area,
26:05it's going to be a little higher. I
26:06think in certain industries, it's going
26:09to be higher. Um I think in certain
26:11maybe even cultures, it could be higher.
26:14So but if you were going to just give me
26:15ask me for a global prevalence, I mean I
26:17think that's it's my it's my best guess
26:21and I think a lot of folks in the field
26:22might agree with me. Again, enough of it
26:24that you would notice it, enough of it
26:26that people are being affected by it.
26:29So you've met six team members of mine
26:31including me.
26:32I have not. I've only met four of you.
26:35So you're still two men down. You're
26:37okay.
26:38You might still be coming in through.
26:39Cuz my next question was which one do
26:41you think it was?
26:42So far so bad for you cuz each one of us
26:45has been sweeter than the next. So
26:46Steven, you're in the hot seat right
26:48now.
26:49Sugar.
26:50Okay, interesting. Okay, so I mean one
26:52in six is a is a spitball number is is
26:55scarily high. That's interesting you
26:57think it's scarily high. I mean I think
26:59it's about
27:01I mean listen, we know how
27:03I I actually don't think it is. I think
27:04if you went to a small town, you might
27:06hit closer to one in eight because I
27:08think a small town is almost based on a
27:10greater need for sociality. I think
27:12there's more interdependence in that
27:14kind of a situation. So narcissism isn't
27:16going to probably work as well. But I I
27:18mean one in six I think if any of us
27:20really went home and did the soul
27:21searching, listed out the names of
27:23everyone we knew,
27:25the number's probably going to track.
27:27Is that number increasing? Are we
27:29breeding narcissists because of the sort
27:31of social and societal changes that have
27:33occurred? I'm thinking about Instagram
27:35when you said that. I was thinking is
27:37is
27:38social media narcissist creator?
27:41It's I think it's a it's a narcissist
27:43amplifier, but I don't think it's a
27:44creator. Narcissism's a personality
27:46style and like all personality styles,
27:48it's a social emotional developmental
27:50phenomenon that happens from infancy
27:52into adolescence. So somebody jumping
27:55onto Instagram when they're 18 and
27:57posting lots of selfies, they're a
27:59decent person, that's not going to turn
28:00them narcissistic. It might turn them
28:02boring, but I don't know that it would
28:04necessarily turn them narcissistic. I
28:06think it could take if somebody's got
28:07the traits, they have the tendency to
28:09need the validation and admiration. And
28:12again, a person posting selfies,
28:15that doesn't make them narcissistic. Cuz
28:17Jack went on holiday up this mountain
28:18and he posted loads of photos.
28:19So no, but but I we have to if Jack's a
28:22nice person, right? Jack is excited to
28:25share his trip with everyone, right?
28:27But if he was kind of like rubbing it
28:29in. Okay, so it's a that's right. Jack
28:31just lost some points there. Poor Jack.
28:33But it's a But but I would say this,
28:36what we'd want to know with anyone who's
28:37posted a lot of vacation photos, right?
28:40And they keep doing it.
28:42How present are they when you're
28:43actually with them? If you say say
28:45"Listen, Jack is the loveliest person in
28:47the world and Jack loves sharing his
28:50vacation trips and there's a little bit
28:52of schadenfreude in there, like, you
28:53know, but he's a sweetie." Then Jack's
28:56off the hook, right? I think though that
28:58what not what social media has become is
29:01it has taken
29:03Once upon a time
29:05and you're probably even You're you're
29:06you're not so young that you wouldn't
29:07remember this, but I remembered it as a
29:09full-grown ass woman is that I can tell
29:11you that if I go backwards to when I
29:13first heard about social media, I was
29:15already in my 40s at that point. And um
29:18and I remember looking at it and I was
29:20already studying narcissism and I said,
29:21"Oh god." I I And it was really like it
29:24was almost like, "Houston, we have a
29:26problem." kind of thing. I had someone
29:28else had shown it to me and I thought to
29:30myself, "This isn't going to create more
29:31narcissists." But once upon a time
29:34for a narcissistic person to get
29:36validation
29:37they'd actually have to have a shave and
29:38a shower and get out of the house. You
29:40couldn't just sit home
29:42and get validation. You had to go go to
29:44work get it in the family sphere, get it
29:47in your town bar or pub or something
29:49like that, but it wasn't going to come
29:51home from you just sitting on your ass
29:53at home
29:54taking pictures of yourself cuz I don't
29:56know if you've ever tried to take a
29:57picture of yourself with the camera,
29:59you're either going to catch your head
30:00or your mouth. Like that's how we used
30:02to try to do it, right? So now there was
30:04a tool for these people to have a
30:06megaphone to say, "Look how wonderful I
30:09am." So a person who was already
30:11narcissistic
30:13this was going to harness it and sort of
30:15it was an accelerant on a fire that was
30:17already burning. But I don't put
30:19the house though, isn't it? Which is
30:20sounds like it's a safer place for it to
30:21be than wondering around the streets.
30:22Yeah, well, the point is what? Keeping
30:24Oh, keeping them in the at home rather
30:26than But I still think that what it did
30:28though is now we get into a bigger
30:29philosophical question. This many people
30:32depicting lives that are Look how much
30:34better my life is than yours. Look how
30:36together I am. Look how great I'm doing.
30:39While that might be something the
30:41narcissistic people will do to offset
30:43their sense of insecurity because that's
30:44sort of the core wound in narcissism.
30:47There are other vulnerable people who
30:49are watching that content who are not
30:50narcissistic but already feel like they
30:52don't measure up and we've created this
30:54really messy space of people who already
30:57devalue themselves looking at these
30:59lives far better than theirs and
31:01wondering what's wrong with me.
31:05Roughly one in six people have a podcast
31:07so I was just wondering
31:11I mean that that MANY PEOPLE THINK THEY
31:12HAVE SOMETHING that interesting to say,
31:13right? So um
31:16And like I said everybody's trying to
31:17put their voice out there, their
31:18vacation pictures out there, their
31:20breakfast pictures out there are not
31:22narcissistic. I think in some cases I I
31:24don't think we should over pathologize
31:27what has become a new way of
31:28interacting. I've got It's interesting.
31:30I've children my my my daughters are now
31:32both in their early 20s and I'll watch
31:34their facility but they're it's not I
31:37see what they're doing. It's not
31:37narcissism. It's actually communication
31:40and they're staying in touch with a very
31:41large net of widely spread friends and
31:44there is a lot of intimacy there. So I
31:46think young people whose cognition kind
31:49of also grew with it, they use it in a
31:51more sort of seamless way. The Listen,
31:54what's it been around? We're we're going
31:55to soon come come 20 years around 20
31:58years since social media's been around,
32:00right? We're we're rounding that horn
32:01soon. We're going to get it's going to
32:03take a minute to get the data. We're
32:04going to get our first set of data from
32:06the kids whose lives were captured from
32:09the day they plopped onto a delivery
32:10table all the way right through
32:11adolescence. That data's going to be
32:14very telling. I don't think it's created
32:15more narcissism. I think we've always
32:17had grandiose narcissists. I think they
32:19make history. They've been our leaders.
32:21They're the people we've always looked
32:22to. They've been the town mayor or
32:24whatever. I think what it's all that has
32:26done though, it's taken this problem of
32:28vulnerable narcissism and it's really
32:30blown it up because the vulnerable
32:32narcissistic people get super resentful
32:35when they perceive other people as
32:36having these awesome lives that they
32:38don't and they get more angry and this
32:40is sort of the advent of the internet
32:42troll. A lot of that is explained by
32:44vulnerable narcissism.
32:46So, where does narcissism come from
32:48then? It's one of the the big questions.
32:50It from what you said there, I assume it
32:52comes there might be a genetic component
32:55that's brought out by our childhood or
32:57So, we're all born with a temperament,
32:59right? I don't know if you're an only
33:00child, if you have siblings or anything
33:02like
33:02Youngest of four. You're youngest of
33:03four. Okay, so this is harder for you.
33:04So, you would have It'd be interesting
33:05for you to talk with them is that and
33:07your your your parents, whoever was the
33:09parents, whoever were around, every one
33:12of you, you and your siblings, had
33:13slightly different
33:15personalities from the day you were
33:16born. And that rolled out in early
33:18childhood. So, you'll see that one kid
33:20who's just easy breezy from the day
33:22they're born. You'll sometimes see that
33:24kid who's just a clenched up ball of
33:26nerves from the day they're born. You'll
33:28see that kid who just doesn't want to
33:29chill for a minute from the day they're
33:31born. That stuff is called temperament.
33:33And what we know about temperament is
33:35that there are certain temperaments and
33:37those that make a child more
33:39biologically vulnerable, little bit more
33:41difficult to soothe. They may be more
33:43They just sort of need more, right? So,
33:44they're more of a demand on a caregiver.
33:47It that with that more vulnerable
33:49temperament, if that comes up against an
33:51environment that's at all invalidating,
33:54trauma, neglect, other adversities,
33:57chaos, domestic violence, substance use
34:00in the family,
34:02um
34:02and it even emotional abuse, where the
34:04child is just being told, "Stop. Sit
34:06down. Shut up. Why can't you be like
34:08your sisters?" right? That com- that
34:10combination
34:12can actually set up a real risk for
34:14developing narcissism. So, that's
34:15pathway one. But pathway two, and this
34:18is actually coming out of really
34:19interesting work by a guy named Eddie
34:21Brummelman from the University of
34:22Amsterdam. It's fascinating work. And he
34:24is studying more sort of How do we do
34:26What's the other pathway? Well, the
34:28other pathway, and other folks like
34:29Masterson and others have written about
34:31this, which is the overvalued child.
34:33These are the children who are told,
34:35"You're more special than any other
34:37child." Not that you're special, but you
34:39are more special than him and him and
34:41her, so you shouldn't have to wait in
34:43the line. You're more special. You
34:45should get the teacher you want. You
34:46should get everything you want. Those
34:48children often they don't learn to
34:50self-soothe. They often aren't as well
34:52regulated. They actually kind of believe
34:54the hype that the parent is giving them,
34:55which is not doing them any favors. And
34:57Bromomans is suggesting that this could
34:59sort of be a foreshadowing of what could
35:01turn into adult narcissism. You I'm
35:04guessing you need that temperament on
35:05board. I think if you had a
35:06sweet-tempered kid, that constantly
35:09being told that they're special actually
35:10might leave the sweet-tempered kid
35:12feeling a little bit guilty, actually.
35:14But the kid with that more
35:15vulnerable temperament, they might sort
35:17of they might buy into the hype. So you
35:19sort of have this one pathway of
35:21adversity.
35:22You have the one pathway of sort of
35:24these are kids who are told, "You're
35:26great. You can have anything you want.
35:27We'll do anything you want. Let's go on
35:28this vacation. Here's this device." But
35:31they're off also kids that are often
35:33very emotionally undernourished. They're
35:36not They're not their emotions are not
35:38valued. They're not reflected. They're
35:40not mirrored. So these are kids who are
35:42get get get, but it's a very tenuous
35:44existence because they're still not in
35:46touch with their emotional world, which
35:48has to happen in childhood, otherwise
35:50you don't get that
35:51So you don't get that atlas of your own
35:53emotions, right? So those tend to be the
35:55two primary pathways. Now,
35:58not every kid who goes through those
36:00pathways will will become narcissistic.
36:02In fact, the vast majority will not. So
36:04I think that it's a very complicated and
36:07what we call it's very it's it's
36:09multi-determined. It's a very
36:11multi-determined series of pathways to
36:13what leads to adult narcissism. And
36:15because of that, I always say,
36:17"Narcissism is one of those stories we
36:19can always tell backwards, but it's
36:20really difficult to tell forwards."
36:23Don't show me your 17-year-old who is
36:25who is has a lot of attitude and won't
36:27empty the dishwasher and calls you names
36:29and don't ask me if he's narcissistic. I
36:31usually tell those parents call me in 10
36:33years. And in 10 years you're going to
36:35see if this tracked or he pops out of it
36:37like every adolescent who's trying to
36:39kind of individuate from his parents and
36:42settles down into a decent guy. You
36:43mentioned that narcissism exists on a
36:45spectrum. So does that mean that someone
36:47can be a little bit narcissistic? I
36:49would say somebody can have milder
36:51narcissistic presentation. So what I
36:53mean by milder that the mild
36:55narcissistic people, the best adjective
36:57I could use are they're annoying.
36:58They're emotionally immature, they're
37:01superficial, they're shallow, they're
37:03vapid and and they're also very
37:06self-centered. So these are people when
37:08they're having a problem they expect the
37:09world to stop for them, take their
37:10calls, talk to them for hours. But the
37:13day finally comes that you need your
37:14friend, they're nowhere to be seen like
37:16oh, I don't have time for this. So it
37:19can feel like a very very imbalanced
37:21relationship. And when you're with them,
37:22the mild narcissist can actually be kind
37:24of fun, right? They're they're like
37:26let's go to this new hot hip whatever
37:28blah blah blah and they're fun and laugh
37:30and dance and attention seeking. Could
37:32be fun for a minute, but they're it
37:35would be very difficult to have a
37:36long-term committed relationship with
37:38someone like that. It'd be difficult to
37:39raise children with someone like that.
37:40It would have been very difficult to
37:41have been raised by someone like that.
37:44Are narcissists more successful
37:46professionally? Yes.
37:48They're much more successful. That's the
37:50problem. And not I mean again I and I'm
37:52not going to make this a blanket
37:53statement, but I mean an Italian that
37:56they are
37:57they're more ambitious. Success is life
38:00or death to them, right? Because it's
38:01validation. It's the it's the it's the
38:04blood that flows to their psyche. So the
38:06stakes are much higher for them. The
38:07rest of us we want to succeed, but at
38:09the end of the day we would say I've got
38:10my family, I got my friends, I got
38:12enough money in the bank, I got some
38:13food in my belly like I'm good. But for
38:15them it is it's the air in their lungs.
38:17So they're more represented in
38:19leadership. They are they make more
38:21money, especially narcissistic men make
38:23more money than agree um agreeable men.
38:27Um they're more successful at dating. Um
38:30they're more successful. And
38:32unfortunately, the way our economy is
38:35set up, it is set up so that the
38:38narcissistic people win. Narcissism and
38:40capitalism go together really well
38:42because it's a competitive system that
38:45rewards the person who does the most and
38:47we don't look at process, we look at
38:49outcome. And because when they anytime
38:51you have an outcome-heavy metric,
38:53narcissistic people are always going to
38:55win.
38:57I'm thinking about some of the greatest
38:58companies that have been built that
39:00changed the world, you know, Apple being
39:02one of them.
39:04Oftentimes when you hear about how these
39:06people treated other people,
39:08um
39:10it sounds like the narcissistic
39:12characteristics that you described
39:14earlier.
39:15You know, but then we often excuse that
39:17because of what they brought into the
39:19world, the great innovations, the great
39:20companies they built, how they helped
39:21change the world, how they maybe led us
39:23through or out of war.
39:25Mhm. So,
39:27what do you say to that? Is it sometimes
39:30worth the narcissism for what they gave
39:32the world? So, here's here's a rub. I
39:33completely agree with what you're
39:35saying. I actually think that some of
39:37the greatest innovations, greatest
39:39creativity, in fact, many wartime
39:41presidents and prime ministers were had
39:44to be narcissistic, right? And might
39:46have gotten countries, people through
39:49messes, might have made the
39:51decisive postures that were necessary,
39:54that might have made the
39:56really, really kind of um difficult
39:59corporate decisions that needed to be
40:00made with little regard for how the
40:02human beings were going to get hurt,
40:03treated people in a push them to an
40:05inhuman limit. And then there was this
40:08thing that came out of it. Was it worth
40:10it? I mean, now we're in now we're in
40:11philosophy, honey, and I'm a
40:12psychologist, but but
40:16suffice it to say,
40:19you know, there's some there's always
40:19been talk like even inventors like Tom
40:21Alva Thomas Alva Edison wasn't a night
40:24was not a nice guy, right? Some archival
40:26research.
40:28Loving these light bulbs, right? Would
40:30someone else have done it? It's a moot
40:32point. He did. And so
40:35I think the innovations are important. I
40:37think narcissistic people are built for
40:38innovation. They're grandiose. They're
40:40dreamers. They want the adulation. They
40:42want to do the big thing. They want to
40:44be on the big tech stage and have all
40:46the lights on them and have all the
40:48attention while they have the beautiful
40:49video and the simple thing and they want
40:51that. That is their everything. And what
40:54I tell people is we're never going to
40:56have a world without them. We have
40:58gotten lots of cool stuff in our lives
41:01from them. Just don't marry them.
41:06Is it possible to be
41:09the person on the stage
41:11to build the incredible thing, to have
41:14the insane ambition to put little
41:16computers into our pockets, and do all
41:19of that, and not be a narcissist?
41:21I fully believe they're absolutely 100%.
41:23I think it's harder though. I really
41:25really do. I think that the empathic CEO
41:28is an is a unicorn. It's tough. The you
41:31know, and it because they're they're
41:33answering to so many masters, right?
41:35They're answering to shareholders.
41:36They're answering to rank and file.
41:37They're answering to management. It's I
41:40wouldn't want that job. I I'm a very
41:42agreeable empathic person and I I I I
41:44got to tell you I'd I'd rather do any
41:46job than that one. It sounds I'd love
41:48the money, but I it's it sounds
41:49terrible. And I think that the kind of
41:52shapeshifting and chameleon-like
41:54qualities that required, it's I would
41:56say that an empathic person would get a
41:58bit more swallowed up in that job cuz if
42:00you actually stopped to care about
42:01everyone you were serving in that
42:03position, you would burn out real fast.
42:06The not caring, I think is what actually
42:08can protect a person in that position.
42:10And that's not to say all CEOs are
42:12narcissistic, though a lot are. Because
42:14it's a competition at the end of the
42:15day.
42:15a competition at the end of the day, and
42:17narcissistic people are built for
42:18competition. They're built for it,
42:20because they have to win at any cost.
42:22The rest of us are probably like, "I'm
42:24out." Yeah, a lot of industries are a
42:26zero-sum game. Not business generally
42:28isn't, but when I say zero-sum game, I
42:29mean this, you know, when um one person
42:32does well, that kind of means that
42:34someone else is not going to do well.
42:35So, I'm thinking about some industries,
42:36even
42:37one of my companies, ThirdWeb,
42:39we realized that it's kind of a
42:41winner-takes-all industry, in the same
42:43way that like Amazon is like there's one
42:46Amazon, and they dominate the whole of
42:47them, pretty much all the market share.
42:49And with Google, there's one Google, and
42:51their nearest competitor probably has 5%
42:53of the market share. So, there are
42:55elements in business where it is pretty
42:56winner-takes-all, and it's conceivable
42:58to think the person who is most
43:00ruthless, most willing to cut ethical
43:03corners,
43:04most willing to put profits over people,
43:07is probably going to rise to the top.
43:09So, you know, generally, at least in the
43:11short term. In the short term, and but
43:13the thing is, and they'll cash out.
43:14Yeah, or their bad ethics will catch up
43:17with them. Or their bad ethics will
43:18catch up.
43:19end up in jail, which we see a lot.
43:20We do. We see it, and I think for some
43:22people it was a was it was a worthy
43:24gamble, because they could have
43:25potentially won it all, right? Or they
43:27or they truly believed they were going
43:29to get away with it. And I think that
43:31that's when we used the word arrogance.
43:33Arrogance is at the it's at its deepest
43:35level is, "I'm going to do the bad
43:37thing, and I'm going to get away with
43:38it."
43:40What about money? Um does money make you
43:42more narcissistic?
43:45Here's where it gets to be an
43:45interesting conversation, and I write
43:47about this actually more in my other
43:48book, in Don't You Know Who I Am, where
43:50I
43:51money breeds privilege, money breeds
43:53entitle- entitlement. So, they call this
43:55sort of phenomenon of feet that never
43:57touch the ground, right? If people have
43:59enough money, they're whisked to
44:00airports in cars, they don't stand in
44:02the TSA line with the unwashed masses,
44:05like the rest of us do. They're taken to
44:07the best hotel suites. They are They
44:09don't think about where their next meal
44:10is coming from. It's brought to them.
44:11They don't They don't do the all the the
44:13stuff that the rest of us do. They don't
44:15tolerate the indignities, and they don't
44:17have to regulate the same way.
44:19So, when a person has money for long
44:21enough, that feet never touching the
44:23ground creates what I call this sort of
44:26privileged entitlement. Doesn't
44:28[ __ ] What's that? Maybe [ __ ]
44:29but maybe not. I think it's also that
44:31bubble-wrapped way that they go through
44:33life. Like, they actually don't
44:35understand how to use the self-checkout
44:37at Target. Did you hear the Paul Piff
44:39study from the University of California?
44:40yeah. He's great, by the way. He's
44:42wonderful. Which Which he did so many.
44:44Which study are you referring to?
44:45Um the one where people are made to feel
44:48wealthier, and when they feel wealthier,
44:51they were more likely to endorse
44:53unethical decisions, such as stealing
44:54office supplies and stealing candy.
44:56People who were made to feel wealthier
44:58also gave less to charity. People who
45:00were who were made to feel wealthier
45:02expressed happiness through feelings
45:03that were self-focused, such as through
45:05pride, um contentment, and amusement.
45:07And people who felt less wealthy were
45:10more likely to agree with statements
45:11that were focused on others.
45:13That's right. Which kind of suggests
45:14that being wealthier and feeling
45:16wealthier makes you more of an [ __ ]
45:18Makes you more of an [ __ ] It makes
45:20you more self-referential, right? So, I
45:22think that, you know, does that make
45:23sense?
45:24You'd think it'd be the other way
45:25around.
45:25Not at all. Not at all. Because I think
45:27that again, it's Paul's research is
45:29great, by the way. He's wonderful. He
45:30actually did another research study
45:32where he studied um He look He went to
45:34busy uh intersections in Orange County.
45:37He's professor at UC Irvine, or was at
45:38the time when I had met him. Um and
45:40they'd go to busy intersections, stop
45:42signs, not red lights. And he found that
45:44people who drove luxury cars were
45:47far less likely to make a full stop at
45:49the stop sign and be compared to people
45:52who had more sort of, you know,
45:53middle-level cars. I mean, it was
45:55fascinating. So, there's And And there's
45:56there's at least a dozen published
45:58studies that show that narcissistic
46:00people drive more dangerously. So, it's
46:01an interesting kind of an accumulation.
46:03But per the money part,
46:06I don't believe like if a person was a
46:08full-grown adult, 30, 35 years old, and
46:11they were an agreeable,
46:13warm, self-aware person,
46:17and they made a lot of money,
46:19okay? I don't think you would turn them
46:21narcissistic.
46:23I do think you might undercut that
46:25self-awareness because they may be sort
46:27of pulled out of the world that the rest
46:30of us live in. So, there might be
46:32unrealistic expectations for how the
46:34world like why are we waiting in this
46:36line? I'm like, "Well, that's cuz what
46:37we do is wait in this line." Cuz they've
46:39come out of it, but they're not cruel
46:41about it. They're like, "Why are these
46:42dumb people making me wait in line?" So,
46:44it's not a dismissiveness. It's almost
46:45like, "How is this so inefficient?"
46:48There's almost a
46:50There's like a disconnect, I guess. So,
46:51I wouldn't say money
46:54I think what he's showing is that money
46:55creates a self-centeredness,
46:57right? As you thought it might go the
46:59other way, but I think that we sort of
47:01double down on sort of keeping it and we
47:03There's a There's an importance. I mean,
47:04money is is the ultimate source of
47:06narcissistic supply because it delivers
47:09power, it delivers admiration, it
47:12delivers a greater likelihood of getting
47:13sex or getting laid, it delivers all
47:16kinds of stuff. So, for a narcissistic
47:18person, the quest of for money is the
47:21the surest quick ticket way to get this
47:24thing called narcissistic supply. So,
47:26you'll often see them attempting to do
47:27that by any means possible. So, but they
47:30but they're driven to the money. I don't
47:32think that the money is what makes
47:34people rotten. I think the bubble
47:35wrapping at that point makes them
47:36entitled. It's a different conversation.
47:39How do you know if you are a narcissist?
47:43Do Like does a narcissist know they are
47:45one? Is there a a narcissist test one
47:47can do?
47:48I don't There's about
47:50five to six tests out there that are
47:52designed to detect narcissism in its
47:54various ways.
47:55All of them have flaws, like I said, and
47:57it's not it's not even fully the fault
47:59of the test because this is a very
48:01difficult thing to measure, right? We're
48:02we're trying to measure things that are
48:04not socially desirable, right? That's
48:07really tough to measure. So, a lot of
48:09the narcissism tests will measure things
48:12like and some entitlement,
48:14assertiveness,
48:16self-importance that people may not find
48:18as offensive, but the research actually
48:21shows that narcissistic people
48:23overestimate their empathy and
48:26underestimate their negative effect on
48:28other people. They do not have a clear
48:31look at themselves. They really have an
48:33almost deluded sense of who they are and
48:37how they go through the world. So, when
48:39a person says to me, "I think I'm
48:41narcissistic." I always say, "Hold the
48:43presses. You need to tell me a little
48:45bit about you." Because there's a lot of
48:47people out there
48:48who think of themselves as narcissistic
48:51because they're in relationships with
48:52narcissistic people who have told them
48:55over the years, "You are such a selfish
48:57person." Because this unfortunate person
49:00is doing simple things like saying,
49:01"Hey, could we go where I want to go for
49:03dinner once?" Or you know, "I want to
49:05talk about my feelings." And then their
49:07narcissistic partner is saying, "Oh my
49:08gosh, you're so selfish." And they're
49:10really sort of indoctrinated into this
49:12idea of gaslighted into this idea that
49:14there's something narcissistic about
49:16them. Once we clear the decks of that,
49:18is there a subset of people out there
49:20who are narcissistic and are kind of in
49:23some awareness like, "This might be who
49:25I am." Yes, and we call them self-aware
49:27narcissistic people. They're out there.
49:29Some of them view narcissism as a
49:31superpower. They say like, "Don't take
49:33this away from me. This is why I've got
49:34the edge. This is why I close the sale.
49:36This is why I'm the man." I had one
49:38client who was like, "I'm the man." I'm
49:40like, "Oh my gosh, you sound like a
49:416-year-old, but okay." Do people men
49:44come to you, women come to you and say,
49:45"I am a narcissist?"
49:46Yes, I've had that happen. It's not
49:48common. I can count on one hand the
49:49number of times it's happened. And did
49:51you agree with them? And they I did
49:52about an hour, yeah.
49:54What were they How did they figure out
49:57they were narcissists? What were they
49:58saying?
49:58They might have They might have read my
50:00books or more
50:02more likely saw a YouTube video. They
50:04might have, you know, sort of again,
50:05seen my content. Someone might have
50:06called said that to them and then they
50:08looked it up on Google and they're like,
50:10that is kind of me. But they did in many
50:12ways rationalize it saying, this is why
50:14I always close the deal. This is who I
50:15am. Like, you know, what was it? Don't
50:17hate the
50:19Don't hate the player, hate the game.
50:20They would try that kind of stuff with
50:21me. And I'd say, but your behavior is
50:23offensive. Like, this is not okay. What
50:25you're doing, what you did, you're doing
50:27on an ongoing basis to your spouse or
50:29partner is not okay. And so, they would
50:32have that awareness like almost like
50:34from a checklist. Yeah, like, yeah, I
50:36don't care that much about people's
50:37feelings. And yeah, I guess I kind of
50:38think the rules don't apply to me.
50:40They'll have that awareness. It's pretty
50:41uncommon. Like I said, most narcissistic
50:44people veer into this idea of They
50:47overestimate their
50:48goodness and generosity. Underestimate
50:51how
50:52how negatively they're viewed by other
50:54people.
50:55So, let's talk then about the impacts of
50:57narcissism on relationships, in
50:59particular.
51:00What kind of people do narcissists
51:03attract
51:05in relationships? And what kind of
51:06people are attracted to narcissists? So,
51:08it's such a big question. I'm so glad
51:10you asked it. What kind of people do
51:12they attract? Everyone's attracted to
51:14narcissistic people. They're charming.
51:16They're charismatic. They're confident.
51:19They're In research has shown they're
51:20often rated as more attractive than
51:22other people. They take good care of
51:24their bodies. They know lots of
51:26interesting things. They're so concerned
51:28about hip cred that they are like They
51:30know the cool restaurants. That they
51:33All of us have been indoctrinated to
51:35think that these are people we're
51:36supposed to be dating, right? Who says
51:39no to charm, charisma, and
51:41attractiveness? Me, maybe. But just
51:43about nobody else would do that. So,
51:45we're all attracted to them, right?
51:47Until And even with the vulnerable
51:49narcissistic folks, you'll say, "Really?
51:51Someone's going to be attracted to
51:52sullen and resentful?" Well, that's not
51:54how they come off when you first meet
51:55them. Many times a vulnerable
51:57narcissistic person looks like a
51:58vulnerable child who needs to be
52:00rescued. So, if you like rescuing people
52:02or puppies or any small vulnerable
52:04creature, that's going to seem actually
52:06very attractive to you. So, we're all
52:08attracted to them. What about what are
52:09they attracted to in us?
52:11They're What they're attracted to in us
52:13is our supply. Now, supply can mean
52:15different things to different
52:16narcissistic folks. Classical sorts of
52:18supply are are we attractive?
52:21If we're attractive, if we have some
52:23form of social status, if we have
52:25resource, if we have connections, the
52:28things that would get them supply.
52:31Here's where it gets wonky. Cuz the
52:33question Attractiveness is what attracts
52:36people is almost the wrong question. The
52:38more deep question is what gets people
52:41stuck in narcissistic relationships.
52:44Because narcissistic relationships start
52:46strong. These are people who are running
52:48their fastest miles in the beginning of
52:49the marathon. Like they're just like go.
52:51And you This is These can often feel
52:53like a fairy tale. It is It's glamorous,
52:56and it's exciting, and it's The dates
52:59are really interesting, and they're very
53:00attuned. They may be very attentive.
53:03They focus on you, and they figure
53:05what's going to work for you. If they
53:07really want to keep you close, it's they
53:09want to they want to get you, and they
53:11want to get you quick. Cuz then you're
53:13like a butterfly under glass. Then
53:14they've got you captured. Because after
53:16all this good stuff happens, you've
53:18bought in.
53:20You might even be dubious for a while
53:21saying, "This seems seem too good to be
53:22true." Or I don't know, but then people
53:26after about I always say it's somewhere
53:27between 6 weeks and 6 months, the
53:30devaluing stage starts. And then it's
53:32they've got you, right? And they they
53:34you might get the
53:36passive-aggressive digs, the
53:38minimizations,
53:39the
53:41lack of empathy, the withdrawing, the
53:43withholding. And people will say, "Where
53:45did that first 6 weeks go?" They're
53:47like, "Wait a minute, we had such a good
53:48time."
53:49And as the devaluing begins, people
53:51start to blame themselves.
53:53So, people who are more empathic, more
53:56forgiving, more optimistic, these are
53:59the kinds of people who get stuck
54:01because they're making allowances for
54:02this. They're saying,
54:04"I mean, I can't I they they were lovely
54:05and they did say they're having a really
54:07stressful time at work, but their
54:09behavior is consistently dismissive and
54:11rude." And so, you keep making excuses,
54:13excuses, excuses.
54:15But then there's a few good days
54:16sprinkled in there.
54:18So, one of the interesting things is um
54:21a lot of people are trying to figure out
54:22if their partners are narcissists.
54:25Do people in relationships, especially
54:27long-term relationships, tend to know
54:29that they're dating a narcissist?
54:31Or is the nas- Or is the narcissist
54:33gaslighted them to the point that they
54:36they don't know? Until recently, most
54:37people did not know because it's it
54:39feels like a disloyal thing to know
54:41about your partner. Many people say, "I
54:43love my partner. We have built a life
54:44together. There are enough good days
54:46that leave them thinking like there's
54:48something here."
54:49They're confused. People in these
54:51relationships are confused. They're
54:53they blame themselves for everything
54:54that goes wrong. They're walking on
54:56eggshells. They've in essence modified
54:58themselves to be exactly what the
55:00narcissistic partner wants. But it's a
55:02slow burn. It's it's a very slow process
55:05of indoctrination. I always say, "These
55:07relationships are death by a thousand
55:09cuts." Because each each of these things
55:11happens slowly over time. It's almost as
55:13if one day you wake up, you're like,
55:14"Who am I Like, what have I become? I'm
55:16literally like living in service to this
55:19other person."
55:21It's only in the last 10 years, I'd say,
55:23that there's so much more content and
55:25the internet is more robust with making
55:27this. And I'm sure people type it in,
55:29"My partner has no empathy and is really
55:31entitled and yells at me a lot." Bing,
55:33and then narcissism pops out at you. I
55:35think this really created the revolution
55:37of people saying, "What is this?" And
55:39even when I wrote Should I Stay or
55:41Should I Go? That was 2015,
55:43I think it was. We're still in the
55:45beginning phases of it, just maybe about
55:46a dozen books out there taking this on.
55:48And so,
55:49we it's it's a As more information gets
55:52out there, more people are clear
55:55that this is happening in their
55:56relationships. The hope is the earlier
55:58you identify it, the less indoctrinated,
56:01the less what we call trauma bonded you
56:02become. And then the easier it would be
56:04to make clear-headed decisions about how
56:07you want to proceed. You talk about the
56:09three Rs that are the hallmarks of
56:11negative relationships in your books.
56:13What are the three Rs?
56:14So, the first is rumination, okay? That
56:17The rumination is it's an obsessive
56:20thinking about the relationship, and
56:21it's usually in an attempt to either
56:23say, "What did I do wrong? What
56:25happened? What is going on?" It's a
56:27trying to fix it.
56:28So, these are the three things that
56:30someone that's in a relationship with a
56:32narcissist will do. Mhm. Yeah. I mean,
56:34they do a lot more, but these are three
56:36common ones. So, the rumination is a
56:37hallmark characteristic of a person in a
56:40narcissistic relationship. In essence,
56:42you're just trying to make sense of
56:44something that makes no sense. The next
56:46R is regret.
56:48And that regret links to bigger themes
56:50like grief. People having regret that
56:52this is the parent I have, and I will
56:54never have a close loving relationship
56:56with them. The regret that this is the
56:58marriage I created, and my children will
57:00never get a healthy model of marriage.
57:02The regret that I've spent 20 years in
57:04this relationship, and really all I have
57:06to show for it is a whole lot of nothing
57:08except that it's harmed me. So, the
57:10regrets play out either big ways and
57:12even small ways. Like, "Why did I say
57:14that? Why didn't I say it that way?" And
57:16then the last R is It's really euphoric
57:19recall, the R being for recall. By
57:21euphoric recall, I mean that people in
57:23narcissistic relationships have an
57:25uncanny ability to sort of cherry-pick
57:29the good things that happened in the
57:31relationship to keep rationalizing and
57:33justifying it to themselves. So, they
57:35might be in a narcissistic relationship
57:37where the person has really treated them
57:39heinously for a month, but on one day of
57:42that month, the narcissistic person,
57:44when they went to the grocery store, for
57:46the first time remembered to bring home
57:48two muffins so that you could have a
57:50muffin. And the person is like, "They
57:52brought me home the best blueberry
57:54muffin. Wasn't that thoughtful? They
57:56brought me home a muffin. We had muffins
57:58together." So, the euphoric recall is
58:00the overfocus on those good experiences
58:04as a way in essence to create this sort
58:06of psychological buy-in so that you can
58:08maintain the status quo. For people in
58:11narcissistic relationships, it's not as
58:13though they're waking up saying, "This
58:14is a hellscape I want to get out."
58:16They're getting up saying, "I'm so
58:18confused. I feel like I'm never enough.
58:20Nothing I do is ever enough. Nothing I
58:23say is ever They're not listening to me.
58:25What is going on? Maybe I'm not being
58:27clear enough. Maybe there's something
58:28wrong with me." So, that's the confusion
58:31element. So, it's not like everyone is
58:33saying, "I want to get out of this."
58:35There's a lot of history. There's a lot
58:37of experiences together. So, people
58:39again, and they're also confused cuz
58:40there's good things that happen and bad
58:42things that happen, and that's what
58:43creates, like I said, this thing called
58:44the trauma-bonded relationship. So,
58:46people might even be able to say like,
58:49"There's something about this that isn't
58:50okay." And might even be able to
58:52articulate, "These are the problems in
58:54the relationship, but the idea of
58:56leaving this relationship fills me with
58:58an absolute sense of panic." Would a
59:00Would a narcissist play to that
59:02insecurity and that um
59:05that history? Well, the narcissistic
59:07person created the insecurity, and they
59:09they will. Because the narcissistic
59:11person is an expert tactician, right?
59:13Cuz that's what they bring to
59:14relationships is tactics. And so, they
59:17are very expert at knowing like, "Ah,
59:19your wound is abandonment. Piece of
59:21cake." So, if you say, "I I can't do
59:24this anymore. I'm out." the narcissistic
59:26partner might say, "Okay, cool. Let's
59:27call it quits." And you're like,
59:28"That's not what I wanted them to say. I
59:30wanted them to say they were going to
59:31fight for the relationship." You see
59:33what I'm saying? Like there It's so
59:35interesting because And part of the
59:36reason narcissistic people are so
59:38successful is because they're so
59:40socially perceptive.
59:42They have no empathy. Social
59:44perceptiveness and empathy are not the
59:46same thing. What are they? Social
59:48perceptiveness is kind of being aware of
59:50reading the room, understanding what
59:52people need, understanding what makes
59:54them tick and what they want, and then
59:57strategically giving it to them to keep
59:59them on the chain or keep them in the
1:00:01position you need them in.
1:00:03That's not empathic.
1:00:05Manipulation, you used the word earlier
1:00:07on to describe narcissism.
1:00:10There's two types of manipulation you
1:00:11speak about, which is the the sort of
1:00:13normal manipulation, which I think we
1:00:14all do in our own ways when we're trying
1:00:16to get our way with a deal or with sales
1:00:19or with someone or whatever, when we're
1:00:20trying to haggle for a discount,
1:00:21whatever it might be. And then there's
1:00:23this pathological manipulation, which
1:00:26seems to be a little bit different.
1:00:27Mhm. Yeah. Pathological manipulation is
1:00:30that there's absolutely no regard for
1:00:31the harm it's bringing the other person.
1:00:33You really are giving absolute primacy
1:00:36to your own needs and then making the
1:00:38other person think that this truly is
1:00:41good for them. This isn't as simple as
1:00:43I'm going to sell this car to someone,
1:00:44maybe it's not the right car for them.
1:00:46This is really around psychological
1:00:48stuff. And it's with somebody where it
1:00:51Listen, you're going into a sales
1:00:52relationship, you understand what the
1:00:54sort of the codes of that relationship
1:00:57are. They're trying to sell you
1:00:58something you're trying to decide if
1:00:59it's right for you. We don't try to
1:01:01think of our intimate and our familial
1:01:02relationships as sales models. So our
1:01:05guard is not up in the same way, and yet
1:01:07the same tactics are being brought, and
1:01:09we're sort of bargaining on things that
1:01:11are matters of the heart and matters of
1:01:13closeness and compassion. So it's Again,
1:01:15the narcissistic person is so skilled at
1:01:19leaving the other person feeling that
1:01:21the thing they sacrificed or gave up was
1:01:24in their best interest and and
1:01:26ultimately the narcissistic person is so
1:01:28self-centered that anything that they're
1:01:30trying to do is going to serve them.
1:01:32Projection. I've heard this phrase used
1:01:34a few times like he's projecting onto
1:01:36you or she's projecting.
1:01:38In the context of narcissism, what is
1:01:40projection? Mhm. So, projection
1:01:42is is a primitive defense that any of us
1:01:44can use and we do use. All of us engage
1:01:46in projection. We engage in projection
1:01:49when some of that uncomfortable
1:01:50unconscious stuff inside of us is
1:01:52getting activated. It's often shame
1:01:54oriented and then we'll accuse someone
1:01:56of something that we're actually feeling
1:01:58like an uncomfortable feeling. That's
1:01:59projection. We all do
1:02:00Give me an example. Um How you might
1:02:02project onto me?
1:02:03Okay, we're in a we're in a relationship
1:02:07and I'll say something like who you
1:02:09texting Steven? Like why what do you
1:02:10like
1:02:11Okay, so shady. Like you know, why don't
1:02:13you show your show me your phone? Like
1:02:15what Oh my gosh Steven like what the
1:02:16hell you need so many you need so all
1:02:18the girls to like you, don't you? Like
1:02:20that's what you're all you're about.
1:02:22Show me your phone. Show me your phone.
1:02:23Show me your phone now.
1:02:26I guess who's got a side piece. That
1:02:28would be me. Oh, really? Oh.
1:02:32There's a life hack for you, Steven.
1:02:34Okay, so you're you're insecure because
1:02:36you know that you're sneaking
1:02:37Not insecure.
1:02:38I mean I'm doing a bad thing.
1:02:40Are you still pretending?
1:02:42No,
1:02:43I am no longer
1:02:44Okay,
1:02:45okay, we're over. So, we're done. That's
1:02:47because you cheated on me even though
1:02:48you didn't but it was me. But now I can
1:02:50go be with my new guy. Okay. So, but
1:02:53it's I'm giving you like such a low
1:02:55hanging fruit example. It's anytime we
1:02:57might accuse someone of lying when we're
1:02:59lying. We may accuse somebody of even
1:03:02being insecure when we're the one
1:03:03feeling insecure, right? We'll accuse
1:03:05someone of being uncomfortable when
1:03:06we're the one
1:03:07who's feeling uncomfortable. And all of
1:03:09us have different stuff we project about
1:03:11cuz all of us have different sort of
1:03:12psychodynamic histories, right? Well,
1:03:14narcissistic people do this all the
1:03:15time. Let me give you sort of a sense of
1:03:17what the inner psychological apparatus
1:03:19of a nice a narcissistic person looks
1:03:21like. Despite all the shiny,
1:03:23charismatic, charming, arrogant,
1:03:25grandiose stuff on the outside, what's
1:03:28in them is at the best I can describe it
1:03:30is a volcano, right? And that volcano,
1:03:33the magma and the gases and the lava, is
1:03:36shame and it's insecurity. Well, that's
1:03:38not very perfect-looking, is it? So, all
1:03:41these defenses, the grandiosity and the
1:03:43arrogance and the charm and all the rest
1:03:44of it, is like a manhole cover, a big
1:03:47manhole cover that covers the volcano.
1:03:50So, all that insecurity doesn't exist.
1:03:52I'm I'm just the smartest person you
1:03:54know, right? So, they get to show up as
1:03:56perfect, as extraordinary.
1:03:59But, things can kick that manhole cover
1:04:02off.
1:04:03Criticism, negative feedback, their
1:04:05friend doing better than them, their new
1:04:08venture not succeeding, um them not
1:04:10getting something that they wanted, some
1:04:12form of frustration. Well, that means
1:04:13they're not perfect. The manhole cover
1:04:15gets nudged. The gases and the lava ooze
1:04:18out. And what does that look like? It
1:04:20looks like anger, it looks like
1:04:22projection. You accuse the other. And
1:04:25this happens to them 20 times a day, cuz
1:04:27nobody lives a perfect life. We get
1:04:29disappointed all the time. There's
1:04:30traffic on the freeway. There we had to
1:04:32wait for the elevator. They People at
1:04:35the coffee shop screwed up our order.
1:04:37Our Our public offering didn't go well.
1:04:39Could be big things, it could be small
1:04:40things. It doesn't matter. But, each
1:04:43time the manhole cover gets nudged, that
1:04:45grandiose exterior gets tinged, and they
1:04:48poom, they explode on others. And that
1:04:51often looks like projection. And that
1:04:52projection allows them to maintain that
1:04:55idealized interior.
1:04:57Can they take feedback, narcissists?
1:05:00Like, do they listen to the Do they No.
1:05:02They could they can't take feedback.
1:05:04don't They They cannot. The only time a
1:05:06narcissistic person may may tiny bit
1:05:10listen to feedback is if it comes from
1:05:12somebody with much, much more power than
1:05:14them. Because narcissistic people are
1:05:16very hierarchical climbing creatures,
1:05:19right? So, let's say they're getting at
1:05:21the CEO's up here, and they're some sort
1:05:23of VP level person here. They admire the
1:05:26CEO. The CEO's giving them feedback.
1:05:29They will listen because they want to be
1:05:32him. They want to be with him. They want
1:05:34to be next to or her or them, whoever
1:05:36the CEO is, right?
1:05:38But I So, they may get some of it, but
1:05:40they're still going to hear it as
1:05:43I am a
1:05:44They'll be this
1:05:46noise that's blocking them out from
1:05:47hearing all of it.
1:05:48So, it might be compliance
1:05:50as a means to an end versus them
1:05:52actually going, "Oh, okay."
1:05:53Oh, no, yeah. They're not integrating it
1:05:54into They're They're just sort of And
1:05:56they might even think like, "God, this
1:05:57person's such a dick.
1:05:59I I I could do that job so much better.
1:06:01They're so lucky they got there. I'm
1:06:03going to get there." But they They
1:06:05again, they also envy this person. So,
1:06:07they are listening, but like you said,
1:06:09it is exactly what you said. It's
1:06:10compliance versus the sense of let me
1:06:12listen to this. And I can promise you
1:06:14what this person's going to do if
1:06:15they're in a relationship, they're going
1:06:17to go home and rage at their partner
1:06:19because they had to have that feedback
1:06:20session. They're going to find a more
1:06:22vulnerable target cuz they can't attack
1:06:24that CEO, and they'll go and find
1:06:26someone else to rage at. A partner, a
1:06:27person on the subway train, a family
1:06:29member, friend, someone else. I heard
1:06:32this word gaslighting. Again, it's a
1:06:33word I've heard a lot, but I I'm not
1:06:35necessarily really clear on what the
1:06:36definition of gaslighting is, but
1:06:38from reading your work, I hear that
1:06:40narcissists gaslight people a lot.
1:06:42A lot, right.
1:06:43What is gaslighting?
1:06:43So, gaslighting
1:06:45At its simplest, it's a power play. It's
1:06:46a form of emotional abuse, and it's a
1:06:48tactic. Gaslighting is predicated on a
1:06:51relationship that's ostensibly
1:06:53characterized by trust. So, that's why
1:06:56strangers can't gaslight you in the same
1:06:57way as an intimate partner, a trusted
1:07:00colleague, a family member, even a
1:07:02person with expertise like an attorney
1:07:04or a physician could gaslight you. Like
1:07:06cuz there's a there's a presumption of
1:07:08trust. So, you're going to listen to the
1:07:10gaslighter.
1:07:11Initially, what the gaslighter will do
1:07:13is they will doubt the gaslighted
1:07:15person's
1:07:17perceptions, experiences, memories, even
1:07:20reality. That never happened. I never
1:07:22said that. You're making that up. That
1:07:25you're We never went there. So, now this
1:07:28person's a little confused. Because
1:07:30their reality is saying, you know, we
1:07:32did. Yeah, we did. So, initially, a
1:07:35person will fight back against the
1:07:36gaslighter. They'll say, "We absolutely
1:07:38went there. Do you want me to show you
1:07:40the pictures on my phone?"
1:07:42Then we go to the next step of
1:07:43gaslighting.
1:07:45The gaslighter doesn't want to see the
1:07:46pictures on your phone. They just want
1:07:47to overpower you. This isn't about
1:07:49evidence. This is about them
1:07:51overpowering you. So, they'll say,
1:07:52"Look, here's the pictures on my phone."
1:07:54And then, the gaslighter won't say,
1:07:56"Well, you're right. We did go there."
1:07:58Instead, they'll say, "Oh my gosh, you
1:08:00are the most petty human being I've ever
1:08:02met. Is this what it is? You're just
1:08:04going to go through your your phone to
1:08:06find the pictures to prove something to
1:08:08me? Is that what this relationship is? I
1:08:10don't know that I want to even be in a
1:08:12relationship like this." Now, this poor
1:08:13person who's being gaslighted is
1:08:14thinking,
1:08:15"I just showed them the pictures to
1:08:17prove a point, and now I'm the bad one."
1:08:20And so, they're and they trust this
1:08:21person. So, they think, "Well, maybe I
1:08:23am doing something bad. Maybe I am being
1:08:25petty." But gaslighting doesn't happen
1:08:27once. It happens over and over and over
1:08:31again. It's an indoctrination process
1:08:33that leaves the gaslighted person
1:08:35utterly confused, completely out of
1:08:38their mind, doubting themselves, and
1:08:40they start to believe the critiques that
1:08:43the gaslighter will tell them things
1:08:44like, "You're crazy. You're stupid. You
1:08:47don't remember things right. Maybe you
1:08:48have dementia. Do you think you should
1:08:49be in therapy? You might need to be on
1:08:51medication." Like, by the time the
1:08:52gaslighter's done with someone, they
1:08:54have lost all sense of They don't They
1:08:56don't trust themselves at all. And so,
1:08:58if they don't leave the relationship,
1:09:00and some people don't, they are then
1:09:02sort of in this again, this form of
1:09:04servitude with the narcissistic person,
1:09:06a gaslighting person, almost relying on
1:09:09them to lead them through reality. So,
1:09:11it's almost like utter submission at
1:09:12that point. That they get the the
1:09:14gaslighter gets to dictate reality. And
1:09:16then, over time there's there's this
1:09:19there's this tactic that narcissistic
1:09:21and other abusive people use called
1:09:23DARVO.
1:09:25DARVO stands for deny,
1:09:27attack,
1:09:28reverse victim and offender. It's a
1:09:31construct that was developed by Dr.
1:09:32Jennifer Freid. Deny,
1:09:35attack,
1:09:36reverse victim and offender. So,
1:09:40what the narcissistic person will in a
1:09:42very skilled, I mean, in a
1:09:44cruelly skillful way do is
1:09:48if the person, the gaslighted person,
1:09:50ever attempts to push back on something
1:09:53that the narcissist has done done. Like,
1:09:56you came you said you were going to be
1:09:57home by 9:00 last night, you didn't get
1:09:58home till 1:00 in the morning.
1:10:01The narcissistic person will deny it and
1:10:02say, "That's not true. I came I yeah, I
1:10:05didn't get home at 9:00, but I didn't
1:10:06come home at 1:00 in the morning. But
1:10:08again, like what is your problem? Like,
1:10:10what do you do? Like, you read the ADT
1:10:11guide all day to see what time I come in
1:10:13the door? And you know what? Like, I
1:10:15can't believe that this is my life. I
1:10:18work so hard to keep us in this fabulous
1:10:21house. I work so hard so you can stay
1:10:23home, and I'm the bad guy? Like, I can't
1:10:27even believe that this is the issue.
1:10:28Like, you put me through so much."
1:10:30Reverse victim and offender.
1:10:32He was out till 1:00 in the morning, and
1:10:33he knows it.
1:10:35But now he's shut down the conversation.
1:10:37It is an insidious dynamic, because done
1:10:41enough, you literally strip another
1:10:44person of their reality, and that is
1:10:46unacceptable to me. That's absolute
1:10:48abuse. Do you see this a lot? All the
1:10:50time.
1:10:51All the time. It is the dynamic that
1:10:53once it had name to it, when When word
1:10:55is used right, most people use this word
1:10:57wrong. That whole process I described is
1:10:59gaslighting. When the word is used
1:11:01correctly, it's powerful. It captures a
1:11:04unique interpersonal dynamic that really
1:11:08eats people from the inside out. I hear
1:11:09I see it all the time.
1:11:11From by family members, by partners, in
1:11:14the workplace, you name it. And it
1:11:17really messes people up because they
1:11:19they feel like they've lost their minds
1:11:20and they feel like they can't trust
1:11:22themselves. And I think that's a
1:11:23terrible thing to do to someone.
1:11:26What should you do if you're being
1:11:27gaslit?
1:11:29When you know what it is and someone
1:11:31starts to gaslight you, they literally
1:11:33deny your reality, right? You have to
1:11:36take a step back and say,
1:11:38"That's not what happened." But you
1:11:39don't say it to them. The importance
1:11:41with gaslighting is you don't engage
1:11:43with the gaslighter. You now know you're
1:11:45being gaslighted, which means
1:11:48the other person in that interaction
1:11:50has the capacity to gaslight you. So,
1:11:53what that means is from your side, you
1:11:55need to shut it down. And that means no
1:11:58longer engaging. Does that make So, that
1:12:00you cannot keep engaging with them cuz
1:12:02they're going to pull you down. Further
1:12:03and further.
1:12:04Yeah, they're going to It's almost like
1:12:05they're going to pull you down into into
1:12:07being drowned or pull you into the
1:12:08quicksand. So, when they start
1:12:10gaslighting, "I never said that."
1:12:13One playback could be,
1:12:15"We're having a different experience
1:12:16then."
1:12:17And leave it at that.
1:12:19Don't go down that slippery slope.
1:12:20Don't go down the slip. Don't say Don't
1:12:22show them the text message. Don't pull
1:12:24out the email. Don't try to prove them
1:12:27wrong. Don't engage with them. It's It's
1:12:29funny you're asking me this cuz I was
1:12:31recently gaslighted. I was in a
1:12:33relatively recently in a professional
1:12:34situation.
1:12:36And I'm thinking, "Not me." Like I don't
1:12:38know much, but I know this. So, don't
1:12:40But they did. I was.
1:12:42And
1:12:43I got very upset. And in this particular
1:12:46situation, it was actually I understand
1:12:48why I got It was like Think of it as a
1:12:50corporate structure that was gaslighting
1:12:52me. So, sometimes very nice people who
1:12:54work in corporate systems gaslight cuz
1:12:57they're trying to prop up the narcissism
1:12:58of the corporation, but they're decent
1:13:00human beings. So, it was very clear to
1:13:02me. I've seen that happen. But, in this
1:13:03particular case, I was being gaslighted.
1:13:05I got upset though, knowing all I know,
1:13:08knowing all the tactics,
1:13:10it's very dehumanizing to have your
1:13:13reality completely doubted. And so, I I
1:13:16did feel a sense of upset, but I
1:13:19confronted the person
1:13:21and it's not okay. And I know you're
1:13:24better than this.
1:13:25And they were happen to be This was a
1:13:26lucky case with the the the gaslighter
1:13:28was not narcissistic.
1:13:30So, we came to a conclusion. But, when
1:13:32I've been gaslighted by narcissistic
1:13:35people,
1:13:37I just disengage.
1:13:38And I file it away and say this person
1:13:40is capable of this. This this this
1:13:42There's really not much juice here. I
1:13:43don't This can only go so deep.
1:13:47Controlling behavior. Emotionally but
1:13:50also
1:13:51I guess physically controlling behavior.
1:13:53When we when we often think about
1:13:54narcissists, we think of like sort of
1:13:55domestic violence and this kind of
1:13:57thing. Is that quite typical of a
1:13:59narcissist to engage in domestic
1:14:01violence?
1:14:01So, here's where we get to an
1:14:02interesting question. You're from the UK
1:14:04and I have to say actually of all the
1:14:05countries in the world, the UK actually
1:14:07has had has taken the front I think that
1:14:11the the highest front position in terms
1:14:13of being very creating public policies
1:14:16around understanding the psychological
1:14:19elements of domestic violence.
1:14:21It was actually a coercive control laws
1:14:23first showed up in the UK. So,
1:14:25this is my personal belief, Stephen, and
1:14:26this is my personal belief and I will
1:14:28hold to this personal belief 100%. I
1:14:31believe all domestic abusers are
1:14:32narcissistic without exception. And I'll
1:14:35tell you why I think that. The capacity
1:14:37to tell someone, "I love you.
1:14:40I'm going to care for you. We're in a
1:14:42relationship."
1:14:44And then to emotionally, physically, or
1:14:47sexually assault them?
1:14:49That's That's zero empathy.
1:14:51That's tremendous entitlement. It's
1:14:54incredible arrogance.
1:14:56That's narcissism.
1:14:58There's a lack of self-awareness.
1:15:00There's a lack of awareness of the
1:15:02other. And I think this is why so much
1:15:05of the domestic violence intervention
1:15:07programs, they don't work.
1:15:09Because how are you going to undo
1:15:10someone's narcissism?
1:15:13So, that's my belief. And I know that
1:15:15this has been a This is very
1:15:16controversial conversation in the field
1:15:19of domestic violence. Back in the '70s,
1:15:21there was a real pushback on this. I
1:15:22don't think that anyone who does
1:15:24domestic violence work will ever doubt
1:15:26that there's a personality issue in
1:15:28these folks. But the concern was if we
1:15:30made it about narcissism, we'll pull the
1:15:32focus away from their behavior, right?
1:15:34But I think the two things go together.
1:15:36The behavior is unacceptable. I don't
1:15:38give a damn if they're narcissistic. And
1:15:41this whole idea of does the narcissism
1:15:43excuse the behavior? Never. If behavior
1:15:46is unacceptable, it's unacceptable. I
1:15:48don't care about the backstory because
1:15:50it means it's going to happen again, and
1:15:52it always does.
1:15:55Narcissism in work.
1:15:57How do I know if my boss, or my manager,
1:15:59or my CEO is a narcissist?
1:16:02And what should I do about it? Do I quit
1:16:03the job?
1:16:04So, if you believe that someone you
1:16:06report to, a manager, a boss, or someone
1:16:08like that in a job is narcissistic,
1:16:11you're going to feel it in the sense of
1:16:12you don't feel seen, you don't feel
1:16:14valued, you feel like the workplace is
1:16:16unpredictable, you feel like it's
1:16:18unfair, that it's inequitable. You might
1:16:21even feel that it's psychologically
1:16:22unsafe. You might feel that the way
1:16:25people are praised and get credit for
1:16:27their work. Again, it doesn't have rhyme
1:16:29or reason. It is inequitable. There
1:16:30might be a very There might be a lot of
1:16:31gossip in the workplace. Those are the
1:16:34things that would suggest a workplace is
1:16:36not You have You might be working for
1:16:38someone who's narcissistic. It's a tough
1:16:40one. It it A lot of this might depend on
1:16:42the nature of your organization. I
1:16:43always tell people if you suspect that
1:16:46your boss or manager or someone you
1:16:48report to is narcissistic, start
1:16:50documenting the hell out of it because
1:16:52the one thing HR doesn't care is you you
1:16:54cannot roll up to an HR office and say,
1:16:56I think my manager is narcissistic.
1:16:58You're going to need documentation,
1:16:59which means saving emails and text
1:17:01messages and voicemails and meetings
1:17:04meet minutes of meetings and you know,
1:17:07you you're going to need as much
1:17:09information try to avoid meetings alone.
1:17:11All that stuff to have that sort of
1:17:13evidence base.
1:17:15If you're in a large enough company
1:17:16where you might be able to switch to
1:17:18work under someone else's management,
1:17:19especially if you still believe in the
1:17:20company. Some people might say, I love
1:17:21the organization. I can't stand working
1:17:24with this person. They may find that
1:17:26working with someone else will allow
1:17:28them to preserve in the institution. But
1:17:30in a smaller employer or where that is
1:17:32not possible, some people might try to
1:17:34stick it out the best they can, but
1:17:36documenting is not going to make it
1:17:37easier. So, some people will find that
1:17:40ultimately if they can't outlast the
1:17:41narcissistic boss or manager, which they
1:17:43often can't, they will look for other
1:17:45employment. Some people also find a lot
1:17:48of solace in collaboration. So, just
1:17:50because you work for a narcissistic
1:17:52manager doesn't mean your colleagues are
1:17:53narcissistic and there's some
1:17:54interesting research suggesting that
1:17:56some really
1:17:58powerful collaborative relationships can
1:18:00come when the leadership is
1:18:01narcissistic, but the the teams actually
1:18:04come together even stronger. It's almost
1:18:06like they're united against a common
1:18:08enemy.
1:18:09I want to make sure I've given enough
1:18:10advice to someone who is currently
1:18:12dealing with a narcissist.
1:18:15All of the things that you've said to
1:18:16them ring true. They they can relate to
1:18:19everything you've said.
1:18:22Are you telling them to get out of that
1:18:24situation? No. And it's something that's
1:18:26very, very important to me is that
1:18:28people don't feel compelled that they
1:18:29have to get out cuz they can't always
1:18:31get out. And I think if we sit if we put
1:18:33that forth as the only pathway, then
1:18:35people who can't get out might say, then
1:18:37now what? I'm just supposed to sit here
1:18:39and suffer?" And the answer to that's
1:18:40no.
1:18:42In in my in my book, what I talk about
1:18:44is this idea, if you're going to if
1:18:46you're going to stay in a relationship
1:18:47like this, right? For whatever reason.
1:18:49Could be a family member and you you
1:18:51don't you still don't want to fully walk
1:18:53away from your family of origin. Could
1:18:55be a long-term marriage and you've got
1:18:56minor children or there's financial or
1:18:58cultural reasons. It might be a job
1:19:00you've had for a long time and you're
1:19:02not financially in a position to step
1:19:03away from it. It might be a friend
1:19:06you've had a long time. Your reasons are
1:19:08yours. And so I always say to people,
1:19:10you must never feel pressure unless it's
1:19:13dangerous. Let's take dangerousness out
1:19:15of the equation, right?
1:19:17You don't feel compelled to do what
1:19:18people say. It's going to be harder if
1:19:20you stay. It is going to be harder cuz
1:19:21you're still being exposed to their
1:19:23manipulative, invalidating, unkind,
1:19:27unsettling, destabilizing behavior.
1:19:29However, the first step, the key step,
1:19:32is what I call radical acceptance. This
1:19:34is not going to change. This is it.
1:19:37There is going to be no someday better.
1:19:38It's not going to get better when he
1:19:39gets a promotion. It's not going to get
1:19:41better for her when the kids grow up.
1:19:43Your mom's not going to get soften with
1:19:44age. This is it, folks. You now know
1:19:48what this looks like. It is not going to
1:19:50change substantially. Their behavior's
1:19:51not going to change substantially. So if
1:19:53you're going to stay in it,
1:19:55your workarounds
1:19:57are going to be based on knowing that.
1:19:58You have to have very realistic
1:19:59expectations. Now what happens though is
1:20:02when people initially have this level of
1:20:04radical acceptance, they have a
1:20:05tremendous amount of grief because a lot
1:20:07of hope was keeping them going. I
1:20:09thought it was going to get better
1:20:10someday. I thought maybe that someday
1:20:12would come.
1:20:14The staying means that someday's not
1:20:16going to come.
1:20:17And so that means that you're not as
1:20:19Once you radically accept, you're not as
1:20:21surprised by their behavior cuz a lot of
1:20:23people get exhausted from the number of
1:20:25times over years or decades. They're
1:20:26like, "I can't believe they did that. I
1:20:30can't believe they did" it. like, "Can
1:20:32we just stop that part and say, of
1:20:34course you believe they did it. In fact,
1:20:35we could have set a clock by the idea
1:20:38that they would have done it, by the
1:20:39fact they would have done it. That's a
1:20:41big piece of this, but the grief of
1:20:42letting go of what you wanted these
1:20:44things to be, that's its own process and
1:20:47grief takes time.
1:20:48But, you know, as you come around
1:20:50through that, as you come around the
1:20:52bend on that, and you really do
1:20:53radically accept, you need some tools.
1:20:55And probably the biggest tool of all is
1:20:58social connection with people who are
1:21:00healthy, empathic, attuned, responsive,
1:21:05compassionate, and respectful. Whether
1:21:07that means you may you might have
1:21:09friends who already are this for you. It
1:21:11might be enhanced by getting into
1:21:12therapy. You might join a support group.
1:21:15You might meet friends at work. There's
1:21:18many ways you might try to do this, but
1:21:20you're going to need it. Cuz if you're
1:21:21going to stay, you're going to need
1:21:23spaces where you're not gaslighted.
1:21:25You're going to need spaces where you
1:21:26are seen, where you are valued, where
1:21:28you are cherished. That becomes the
1:21:31pathway to surviving. And then, it
1:21:33doesn't feel good to feel like you're in
1:21:35a marriage where you're phoning it in
1:21:36for the rest of your life, but you know,
1:21:38people
1:21:39people say that now that I'm not as
1:21:40surprised by their behavior, it's a
1:21:42little more bearable. I've constructed a
1:21:44rich life almost around this marriage,
1:21:47and I just sort of, you know, view that
1:21:49as sort of the kind of annoyance at the
1:21:51side of the room that it is. Some people
1:21:52say, I happen to adore my
1:21:56my sister, but I can't stand my
1:21:58narcissistic parents, and you know, I so
1:22:00but I'm going to stay in touch with them
1:22:02so I can also have the family gatherings
1:22:05that matter to my sister, but I no
1:22:07longer have conversations with my
1:22:09mother. Or, one person I know said she
1:22:11would regularly visit a narcissistic
1:22:13father cuz nobody else would give him
1:22:15the time of day, and he he needed a
1:22:17little bit of assistance. She said, I'd
1:22:18set a timer. 90 minutes max. Once the 90
1:22:21minutes rang out, I'd say, well, I've
1:22:22got to jump. He'd always yell at her.
1:22:23She said, but better to yell at 90
1:22:25minutes than at 3 hours. Either way, he
1:22:27was going to yell. So, people get into
1:22:29the space of accepting what this is and
1:22:31its limitations. Some people over time
1:22:33may still decide to leave, but not at
1:22:35that moment. But, staying and not
1:22:37radically accepting it will destroy you.
1:22:40Can you be happy in a relationship with
1:22:42a narcissist, do you think?
1:22:44You can be happy, but not with the
1:22:46relationship. So, you don't think you
1:22:47can be happy with the relationship?
1:22:49think so. No. I I think you can see it
1:22:51with its limitations and I think you
1:22:53know I've met people who said who have
1:22:55told me everything about narcissistic
1:22:58um partners who said
1:23:00they happen to be able to do this one
1:23:01sex thing I love, and so that's just I
1:23:04mean all the rest of it's awful. We
1:23:05can't end any how, so we do the sex
1:23:08thing and it works for me. Um some
1:23:10people will say, "We both love watching
1:23:13period dramas and that's they're my
1:23:15person to do period dramas with."
1:23:17Someone else said, "We're
1:23:18we're obsessive about collecting antique
1:23:21fountain pens and I really can't stand
1:23:23spending time with them, but we get
1:23:24excited when we find a new pen." Someone
1:23:26else said, "He's a hell of a Scrabble
1:23:27player." You find the one or two things
1:23:30that work for you. Is it happy? I mean,
1:23:31again, we're getting back into
1:23:32philosophy there. That's the sense of
1:23:34it, you know, what what's happy? On that
1:23:36point of sex, are narcissists better in
1:23:38bed? Depends on what you call better. I
1:23:40actually just recently did a big piece
1:23:42in USA Today on this that I'd been
1:23:44interviewed for.
1:23:45They are very performative lovers. They
1:23:48are as you can imagine they like they
1:23:50they they almost want applause after the
1:23:51sex act, right? Because they need
1:23:53admiration and validation. So, they
1:23:55actually can be rather invested in
1:23:56getting a partner off because they want
1:23:58to be told, "Oh my gosh, you're the best
1:23:59lover ever." They might want to be very
1:24:01like mirrory sex so they can see their
1:24:04body or your body cuz it's all again
1:24:06very performative. But, some
1:24:07narcissistic folks are very selfish
1:24:10lovers. The sex can be a little bit
1:24:11porny. Like it's a bit, you know, like a
1:24:14bit over the top and like I said, it
1:24:15feels performative. And um but, for some
1:24:19people where it gets into dangerous
1:24:20waters is when people are in
1:24:22narcissistic relationships and they feel
1:24:24like they're having sex just to go along
1:24:26just to keep the trains of the
1:24:27relationship going along and that's a
1:24:28very un healthy precedent. So, it can be
1:24:31on a spectrum from sort of ridiculous
1:24:34performative sex to maybe they're
1:24:35skilled and they want to sort of show
1:24:37off, but then they're like a little
1:24:386-year-old who wants to get a lollipop
1:24:40for having done a good whatever on you
1:24:42and then all the way up to stuff that
1:24:44feels almost coercive. Superman has
1:24:47kryptonite and in the context of the
1:24:48Superman story, kryptonite is the thing
1:24:51that
1:24:52he's kind of allergic to. The thing that
1:24:54kind of, you know, defeats his very
1:24:56strong set of powers. For a narcissist,
1:24:59what is their kryptonite? What is the
1:25:01thing that
1:25:03you know, makes them fall to their knees
1:25:04and that they run from but when they see
1:25:06it in a person, a trait maybe?
1:25:09I think that for a narcissistic person,
1:25:11there's a couple of ways kryptonite can
1:25:13show up. I think that the kryptonite
1:25:15that we could bring into it is not
1:25:17engaging with them anymore, right? Not
1:25:18giving them the satisfaction of the
1:25:20fight, not getting into the mud with
1:25:21them, but we have to be strong in the
1:25:23face of that because they are going to
1:25:24want the fight. So, they're going to
1:25:25push and they're going to push and
1:25:26they're going to push and push and try
1:25:28to poke us and make us take the fight
1:25:30cuz they're really good at fighting.
1:25:31Another thing that's kryptonite for a
1:25:33narcissistic person is a person who's
1:25:35much, much more powerful than them cuz
1:25:38they they do feel they sort of feel
1:25:39cowed by them. So, if they meet I guess
1:25:41I said they gave you the example of the
1:25:43sort of middle-level narcissistic person
1:25:45working in a large organization and then
1:25:47they meet the big CEO and it's really,
1:25:50really great if you had one of those
1:25:51empathic CEOs and then the narcissistic
1:25:54person who's almost trying to get into
1:25:55the good books with this empathic CEO
1:25:58and all their usual tricks aren't
1:25:59working, that would definitely be a bit
1:26:01of be a bit of kryptonite too that the
1:26:03very person that they envy wants them to
1:26:06be sort of warm and fuzzy and all the
1:26:08things that they have contempt for. But,
1:26:10I have to say not engaging with a
1:26:12narcissistic person is the ultimate
1:26:14kryptonite and not sort of oohing and
1:26:16ahing. Narcissistic people are very used
1:26:18to people owing and owing over them.
1:26:21What about authenticity?
1:26:23I saw you talk about that once that they
1:26:25don't like people that are authentic.
1:26:27They feel threatened by people who are
1:26:28authentic. So and to show up as your
1:26:31authentic self in a narcissistic
1:26:33relationship can actually be I'm going
1:26:35to say dangerous. I put dangerous in
1:26:36quotes. It's not like they're going to
1:26:37beat you up, but they're not going to
1:26:39have it, right? Your true self, your
1:26:41authentic self, they're going to mock
1:26:43it, they're going to have contempt for
1:26:45it. They're going to if if you're not
1:26:48solid in that authentic identity,
1:26:50they're going to attempt to dismantle
1:26:51it, which is why many people struggle.
1:26:53If they don't know they're dealing with
1:26:54a narcissistic person, they may struggle
1:26:56with authenticity in a narcissistic
1:26:58relationship because it gets dismantled.
1:27:00It's hard enough for us to get to
1:27:01authenticity. If somebody wants to
1:27:03dismantle it, especially when we were
1:27:04younger, I think authenticity, the odds
1:27:06of it happening grow with age. It's It's
1:27:09hard to be a young authentic person, but
1:27:11if you remain solid in your authentic
1:27:14identity around the narcissistic person,
1:27:17they'll actually probably get bored and
1:27:18leave, which is always the hope, right?
1:27:20They may ramp up for a little while, but
1:27:22then you're just not an interesting
1:27:24target to them anymore. So then they'll
1:27:25sort of slowly lose interest and walk
1:27:27away. Famous narcissists. Oh, what what
1:27:31what famous people are
1:27:33Oh, [ __ ] You think all famous people
1:27:34are? I don't think all are, but I think
1:27:36a lot are because the quest for fame is
1:27:38a very narcissistically driven interest,
1:27:40right? So I think most normal people
1:27:42don't want to be famous. They really
1:27:43don't. If you talk to average person, do
1:27:46you want to be famous? They'd be hell
1:27:47no. I want to be able to go to the
1:27:49grocery store and have no one know who I
1:27:51am. I want to be able to live my life
1:27:52without being recognized. So I think we
1:27:55talk famous people, you're saying that
1:27:56is it one in five one in six seems like
1:27:59a lot. I'd say famous people were at 40
1:28:01to 50%.
1:28:0240 to 50% of famous people are
1:28:04narcissists.
1:28:04I do. I really think it's a coin flip.
1:28:06What about world leaders?
1:28:08Now we're we might be closer to 60 to
1:28:1070%. I mean, think of what you're
1:28:12signing up for.
1:28:13Yeah, it's crazy. need to run a country.
1:28:16I believe I can run a country. And you
1:28:18know what? There's We have in over
1:28:21history had some good people do that.
1:28:23But when you look at the circus politics
1:28:25has become, which is performative and
1:28:28ridiculous and bombastic and cruel and
1:28:32critical and manipulative, I don't see
1:28:34how someone non-narcissistic could ever
1:28:36win at that game. Why do we vote for
1:28:37narcissists? Why do we put them into
1:28:39power? Well, I mean, I think that we we
1:28:41we're still we still do what I call we
1:28:44or many of us call we still fawn in
1:28:46their in their in the face of their
1:28:48charisma. I think we believe somebody
1:28:50who walks around thinking that they're
1:28:51all that, that they actually have the
1:28:53goods.
1:28:54I still think we fall for the circus
1:28:56barker. We fall for the person who is
1:28:58who is sort of selling the story. We we
1:29:01we vote for them. We choose them. And I
1:29:03think we want You know, this is the best
1:29:05example I can give you, Steven. When we
1:29:07go to a magic show, right? I don't know
1:29:08if you've ever been to a magic show.
1:29:10This place called the Magic Castle in
1:29:11LA. You should You should try to go
1:29:13sometime because I find it intriguing.
1:29:15But when you go There's don't There's no
1:29:17such thing as magic. It's all slight of
1:29:18hand, right?
1:29:20But for a moment we I don't want them to
1:29:22show me the trick. I want to be lost in
1:29:24the magic. And most of us most of us,
1:29:26not all, I think some people want to
1:29:27know how the trick is done.
1:29:28But once we're shown how the trick is
1:29:30done, the magic's gone. Now it's just
1:29:32right It's It's It's dexterity, right?
1:29:34Mhm. Most people don't want to know how
1:29:37the trick is done. We want to believe in
1:29:39magic. And that's why narcissistic
1:29:41people don't get called out because
1:29:43there's something about them. There's
1:29:44something that feels
1:29:46that you know, they there's a confidence
1:29:48they breed because they have so much
1:29:49conviction, but it's misplaced
1:29:51conviction. It's not conviction backed
1:29:53by facts or integrity. It's just They
1:29:55just believe it cuz they think it's true
1:29:57and it's going to forward their cause.
1:29:58So It becomes a self-fulfilling
1:30:00Exactly. But we believe Most of us don't
1:30:02have that kind of conviction. We doubt
1:30:04ourselves. We question ourselves. And so
1:30:06when someone comes in with absolute 100%
1:30:09I wanted to bang my hand but I didn't
1:30:11100% conviction, we're like, "Wow, then
1:30:14they must really know what they're
1:30:15talking about. Leaders have conviction."
1:30:17But, in fact, when we see a leader who's
1:30:19circumspect, who might say, "Well, give
1:30:21me a minute. I want to weigh both sides
1:30:23of this." Those leaders are often viewed
1:30:25as more weak-minded and are less likely
1:30:28often to get the vote. If our adversary
1:30:31in another country is a narcissist, you
1:30:32know, like a Putin or an Kim Jong-un,
1:30:36whatever he's called. Um
1:30:38would we rather our leader that's
1:30:39against him be a narcissist as well?
1:30:42That's a fantastic question. Do we want
1:30:44a narcissist fighting a narcissist?
1:30:46I would say that
1:30:48the problem with a narcissist fighting a
1:30:50narcissist is they lose track of what is
1:30:53good for their people. Mhm. So, they
1:30:56could drag them into a conflict or a
1:30:57problem that could harm the populace
1:31:00economically, physically, battles, wars,
1:31:03the whole nine yards, right?
1:31:05And that's what a narcissistic person is
1:31:07more likely to do cuz they can't be the
1:31:09smaller one in the fight. It's all about
1:31:10It's two egos fighting each other. They
1:31:12can't just say, "Okay." No. But, an
1:31:15overly empathic leader might do a little
1:31:17bit of saying, "Okay." And then a a
1:31:19narcissistic or a psychopathic leader
1:31:21will absolutely sort of railroad that
1:31:23person.
1:31:24That sort of perfect mid-level sort of
1:31:28wise
1:31:29circumspect
1:31:31aware of the needs of the populace
1:31:34but
1:31:35aware of the psychology of the
1:31:37perpetrator is what we want. I have to
1:31:40say, if I ran the world, Stephen, and I
1:31:42don't not even long shot and I wish I
1:31:44was more grandiose cuz it really my
1:31:45career would be fire if I was. But, I'm
1:31:48not. And so, but I wish what one place I
1:31:51wish we really brought more narcissism
1:31:53training is into diplomacy. I wish more
1:31:56of the diplomats around the planet,
1:31:58secretaries of state and UN
1:32:00representatives understood narcissism
1:32:03because I think a lot of times people
1:32:05are making bad deals where a lot of
1:32:06people are getting hurt and they're
1:32:08trying to negotiate with people you
1:32:10cannot negotiate with. Anyone who's ever
1:32:12tried to negotiate with a narcissistic
1:32:15spouse knows that it's impossible. It's
1:32:17no different with a world leader and I
1:32:19think a lot of innocent people have been
1:32:22incredibly harmed as we diddle around
1:32:25and try to negotiate with narcissistic
1:32:27world leaders and just simply aren't
1:32:29willing to call them out for what they
1:32:30are.
1:32:32What is the most important thing we
1:32:33haven't discussed that we should have
1:32:35discussed? I would say the most
1:32:36important thing that we've discussed is
1:32:37that I don't want people to leave this
1:32:39conversation thinking it's all doom and
1:32:40gloom.
1:32:41People can take themselves back from
1:32:43these relationships. This isn't like
1:32:45sort of some terrible deterministic
1:32:47destiny that I've been through a
1:32:48narcissistic relationship so I'm never
1:32:50going to be authentic. I think what's
1:32:52remarkable is once people learn about
1:32:54this and they're taught about this and
1:32:56the dynamics of it and they're given
1:32:58permission to call abusive behavior what
1:33:01it is, they're able to slowly but surely
1:33:04start coming back into themselves. No
1:33:07longer shaming themselves for having a
1:33:08need or a want or a feeling or a hope.
1:33:11People do heal and I've seen remarkable
1:33:14stories of people coming back from
1:33:17familial narcissistic abuse, marital
1:33:19narcissistic abuse, long-term committed
1:33:21relationship narcissistic abuse,
1:33:23workplace narcissistic abuse and out of
1:33:26it have come out so much wiser,
1:33:28stronger, finally enacting their
1:33:30creative selves. I really want people to
1:33:31leave this episode knowing all the
1:33:34dynamics but that not only is healing
1:33:36possible, it happens all the time to
1:33:39people but it's work and it's not an
1:33:40easy process.
1:33:43If you've seen my most recent post on
1:33:44LinkedIn, you probably have seen that
1:33:45I'm on a bit of a hiring spree at the
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1:33:48trying to find the world's best talent
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1:33:56who are a proud sponsor of this podcast.
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1:34:40We have a closing tradition where the
1:34:41last guest leaves a question for the
1:34:43next guest Oh.
1:34:44Diary of a CEO, not knowing who they're
1:34:46leaving it for.
1:34:48The question here that's been left for
1:34:49you is,
1:34:54which was your darkest day and how did
1:34:57you turn the lights on?
1:35:00Mhm.
1:35:05I was stalked by someone who who
1:35:07sexually assaulted me. And um it was a
1:35:11sort of this nightmarish collegiate
1:35:13experience before you would report these
1:35:15things. I'm I'm again, I'm quite a bit
1:35:16older than you. And it was it was
1:35:17horrific. It was just absolutely
1:35:19horrific. And there was I didn't
1:35:21understand I talk about not knowing what
1:35:23narcissism was. I was it was I was much
1:35:25younger. I'm still in my teens, early
1:35:2620s. Um but you that one experience, you
1:35:30learn so much about what trauma does to
1:35:33us. But I I was it was absolute terror.
1:35:36I was being stalked all the time. I
1:35:38didn't know what to do. We didn't
1:35:40understand this stuff then. We did not
1:35:42understand. We did not talk about it. It
1:35:44was we didn't have cell phones. It was
1:35:46still like we're still back in the these
1:35:47dialing phones days. And and the person
1:35:50just kept breaking me down, breaking me
1:35:52down. I didn't know what I was dealing
1:35:53with. I didn't have a lot of self
1:35:55self-esteem. I didn't know who to ask.
1:35:57And you know, it was sort of and then it
1:36:00was yeah, and it was what it was. And so
1:36:03probably is what propelled me to want to
1:36:06work with people who are doubted by
1:36:08systems and who are and to help me want
1:36:11to understand trauma. A system that
1:36:14doubted you.
1:36:15There was nowhere to go with that stuff.
1:36:17To this day when women bring um
1:36:22reports of sexual assault or abuse on
1:36:24college campuses
1:36:26they're they're believed they're not
1:36:28believed more often than they are
1:36:29believed. They're blamed. There wasn't
1:36:32even a I didn't even know where to go. I
1:36:34didn't know where to take it. I didn't
1:36:35know who to tell. It's fine. I mean I I
1:36:38when I say it's fine, I like I've done
1:36:39the work. I've been
1:36:41supported through therapy.
1:36:43But you just didn't know
1:36:45where to take it. And
1:36:48The person who did it? I didn't know
1:36:50them well enough at the time. There was
1:36:51someone who was sort of peripherally
1:36:53known to me. Yes, for sure. I'd say
1:36:55vulnerable narcissist actually, which I
1:36:57think by far even some ways is is at
1:36:59level with the the the danger of the
1:37:02malignant narcissistic person. And in
1:37:04that time Stephen very frankly like
1:37:06doing this work, I don't know what your
1:37:08experience has been as a public person,
1:37:09but maybe as a woman woman of color it's
1:37:11you know, there's a little more risk is
1:37:13that I've had people
1:37:15say very dangerous things to me in
1:37:17online spaces and issue some real
1:37:20threats towards me.
1:37:21And it all came back at me. In fact, we
1:37:24had something like this happened in the
1:37:25last few years and it just it flooded
1:37:27me. I I'd really compartmentalized that
1:37:29piece and it was um
1:37:32and it all comes flooding back when when
1:37:34you went through something like that
1:37:35when you felt again,
1:37:36back then it wasn't online stalking. It
1:37:38was using phones. It was following you
1:37:40places. My things were being stolen. It
1:37:42was a lot of gaslighting. My things
1:37:44would be stolen and my things would be
1:37:45put back so the campus police didn't
1:37:47believe me. They'd said, "You said your
1:37:49stuff was stolen, but your backpack is
1:37:51right there." But the person would take
1:37:53my backpack and then put the backpack
1:37:55back in its place.
1:37:56Can I ask, how did that end?
1:37:58Um I left the university.
1:38:01Is Is that why you left the university?
1:38:07Has that inspired why you were focused
1:38:09on working on this subject matter at
1:38:11all? No. No, I I I think I'm like most
1:38:13people. It's your trauma. I It I don't
1:38:15mean to laugh about it, but I
1:38:16compartmentalized it, you know, and I'm
1:38:18saying like as we mostly dissociate from
1:38:20our pain. And so, um Consciously?
1:38:23It's uh no, not consciously. I think
1:38:24dissociation's a very protective
1:38:26mechanism. I think the
1:38:27the way the mind and the body work when
1:38:29we've gone through trauma. I think the
1:38:30body's
1:38:32beautiful in how it tries to protect us.
1:38:34Um I think the mind is also trying to
1:38:36protect us and together, like these
1:38:39these are painful things, but the
1:38:40problem is them getting pushed away
1:38:43actually doesn't do us any favors, if
1:38:45you will. You know what I'm saying? And
1:38:47so, um but yeah.
1:38:51Well, thank you. Thank you for um taking
1:38:53the time to write such brilliant,
1:38:56important books on a subject that is
1:38:58still
1:39:00not well known enough. Uh and the way
1:39:03that you go about both your videos, your
1:39:06content more broadly, but especially
1:39:07your books is
1:39:10so important because you're giving
1:39:12information in a very, very accessible
1:39:14way. And information is always and
1:39:16awareness is always the first step in
1:39:17being able to do something about your
1:39:19situation. And there must be so many
1:39:21thousands, hundreds of thousands of
1:39:23people, millions of people that have
1:39:26been exposed to your work. It's
1:39:28heightened their awareness, and because
1:39:30of that, they've taken a step out of a
1:39:32situation that wasn't serving them, that
1:39:34was hurting their health and happiness,
1:39:35and towards a better place. And that is
1:39:37a really remarkable thing. That is a
1:39:39really, really remarkable thing. This
1:39:40book was
1:39:41um I've heard about the word narcissism
1:39:43but this new book it's not you
1:39:46turn the lights on for me.
1:39:48In a really really important way. To be
1:39:49honest as well as a CEO as a business
1:39:52leader
1:39:53it also made me ask myself a lot of
1:39:55questions about myself about behavior
1:39:56that I have. I don't consider myself to
1:39:57be a narcissist but but as I was reading
1:39:59about the behaviors of narcissists and
1:40:01also the impact that it can have on
1:40:03someone I thought [ __ ] hell like
1:40:05you know
1:40:06it's as you said it's insidious.
1:40:10It's insidious
1:40:11and we I think I'm right in saying that
1:40:13we can all exhibit
1:40:16some traits of narcissism sometimes and
1:40:19we kind of you know define that as being
1:40:20an [ __ ] or whatever.
1:40:22And it really made me want to be a
1:40:24better person.
1:40:25It really really did. Really made me
1:40:27want to be a much much better person. So
1:40:29thank you for that. Thank you for
1:40:30shining a light on this subject matter
1:40:32and thank you for all the millions of
1:40:33people that you've helped through your
1:40:34work. It's really important.
1:40:34I love that. I mean I think that that's
1:40:36such an interesting take on it that we
1:40:38do sometimes do these things that are
1:40:39narcissistic but we you know we may not
1:40:41even because we are narcissistic but to
1:40:43even recalibrate those behaviors. I
1:40:45think the the the better we all can be
1:40:49the more we're all fortified should
1:40:51someone who has these qualities come
1:40:52into our life that we don't give up on
1:40:54ourselves and I think that that's the
1:40:56more good we can sort of create in our
1:40:58universes that bad's going to happen
1:41:00it's nature of life but we'll be
1:41:01stronger in the face of it. So thank
1:41:03you.
1:41:06I think it was about a year ago I became
1:41:07obsessed with sleep to the point that as
1:41:09many of you know I pretty much have it
1:41:11as a non-negotiable. One of the things
1:41:13that I found is a brand called Eight
1:41:15Sleep that sponsors this podcast and
1:41:17that is the cover that I have on my bed.
1:41:19Some of you will know that in order to
1:41:20have optimal sleep our bodies need to be
1:41:22a certain temperature and there's slight
1:41:23variants between all of us. That's
1:41:25exactly what Eight Sleep does. It learns
1:41:48more energized and more capable to
1:41:49pursue our goals. The podcast sponsors
1:41:51that I have are brands that I love and
1:41:53use, and Eight Sleep is one of them.
1:41:55I've had so many technological
1:41:57game-changers in my life, and Eight
1:41:59Sleep is certainly one of them. Check it
1:42:00out at eightsleep.com/steven
1:42:03for holiday savings.

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