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The N-Word Debate with Charlamagne Tha God, Dr. Michael Eric Dyson & more | Cite Your Source — Transcript

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0:06Welcome to Spicers Source. I'm your host
0:08Angela Rye. We are your two-step
0:09verification on all the BS and today we
0:12are talking about the N-word. Who can
0:14use it or should anyone at all be using
0:17it? Joining me today are Lenard
0:19Charlemagne tha God McKelvey, multimedia
0:21mogul, Jordan Peele, youth leadership
0:23and identity advocate and founder of
0:25Voice, Delano Squires, director of the
0:28DeVos Center for human flourishing at
0:31the Heritage Foundation and author of
0:33The Vanishing Black Family, Dr.
0:36Elizabeth Stordeur Pryor, professor of
0:38history at Smith College and author of
0:41Something We Said, Richard Pryor and A
0:43Notorious Word and Me, Derrick Johnson,
0:45president and CEO of the NAACP and Dr.
0:49Michael Eric Dyson, distinguished
0:50professor of African American and
0:52Diaspora Studies at Vanderbilt
0:55University. We got through it all. Today
0:57we will be addressing three claims. One,
1:01the N-word is associated with the most
1:02painful aspects of black history. Two,
1:05the N-word is derived from the Amharic
1:08word negus, which means king. Three, it
1:11is socially acceptable for white people
1:14and individuals of other racial
1:15backgrounds to say the N-word. So, I
1:19know you all are wondering where and who
1:21is the fact-checker.
1:24Surprise, surprise! It is me. She is I
1:27and I she that is right. I will be
1:29serving as our resident fact-checker.
1:31So, if any panelists is on some BS or
1:33tells a little story, I will
1:35hit that buzzer and you'll hear this
1:37sound. Then they will have to cite their
1:40source. This is going to be good, y'all,
1:42but first let's get to the N-word.
1:44>> [ __ ]
1:44>> [ __ ]
1:45>> Negro.
1:46>> Say it say it right now.
2:03>> Okay, so I got to ask you all this very
2:06basic question. Yes or no, should folks
2:09be using the N-word? This is a rapid
2:10round. We going to start with the person
2:12I know will be the rapidest, that's Dr.
2:13Dyson.
2:14>> Yes.
2:16>> So your answer is yes, people should use
2:17the N-word. Okay, Derek.
2:19>> Well, black people should.
2:20>> Black people should. Okay, Derek.
2:22>> No one.
2:22>> Okay, Liz.
2:24>> Complicated.
2:25>> Okay, Delano.
2:27>> Depends.
2:27>> Okay, Jordan.
2:29>> No.
2:29>> Okay, Lenard.
2:31>> No.
2:32>> No. Okay, you sound like you had the
2:34most hesitation. Why no?
2:36>> I didn't have no hesitation, but when
2:37you know when the sister said
2:38complicated I do I can see where it can
2:40be complicated, but I think that you
2:41know when you know better you do better.
2:42And I know for me whenever I've used it
2:45I've never used it as a term of
2:46endearment. I use it the way white
2:47supremacists use it. I'll be like them
2:49god damn, you know? So I don't see the I
2:52don't see the benefit of it in 2026 to
2:55still be using it in any way, shape or
2:56form. For me, personally. It just feels
2:58a little vibrational.
2:59>> Yeah, well I think it's complicated.
3:00White people should never use it. I
3:02don't want to ever hear it and I don't
3:03say it, but I also know that it's in
3:05conversation with white supremacy when
3:08black people use it and that
3:11to remove the word is just removing a
3:13vocabulary word when the word's in
3:15conversation with injustice, inequity,
3:18inequality. It had those systems have to
3:20be removed before the N-word stops
3:22meaning anything. As long as it means
3:24something, it's going to be continued to
3:26be used. That's the complication for me.
3:28>> Delano.
3:29>> Yeah, and I would make a distinction
3:31between private use, public use, and
3:33commercial use. And a great deal of the
3:35conversation around that word of
3:37particularly over the last 40 years is
3:39about public and commercial use,
3:40particularly if you're talking about hip
3:41hop. Um but I think it's important to
3:43remember that every all language has
3:46context and you have to look at the
3:48message, the messenger, the motive and
3:50the medium. And for me, and this is
3:52where I where I would agree with
3:53Charlamagne, a lot of the time the
3:54motive, even when it's coming from our
3:56mouths, is not is not a clean motive, is
3:58not a good motive. But the but language
4:00is is fluid in the way that people talk,
4:02particularly when in a private setting,
4:04um
4:05doesn't necessarily mean that they have
4:06ill intent when they use particular
4:08words. And And that's why there's a
4:09difference between reading a word and
4:12using a word. And I think all the
4:14panelists would agree that using the
4:15word as a slur, regardless of whose
4:17mouth it comes out of, is is off-limits.
4:20>> Yeah. Um I say for me, I feel like we
4:22shouldn't use the N-word. And the reason
4:23why I'm saying that is because I think
4:24of when I think of words, I think about
4:25the power of language, right? You said
4:26in the Bible says the power of death and
4:28tongue power of death and life for lies
4:30in the tongue. But even outside of that
4:32is understanding that like words also
4:33have a neurological response. And
4:35depending on the field and work that
4:36you're doing, and I'm trying to reaffirm
4:37young black men in who they are, I want
4:39you to reaffirm me in who we are. Why
4:41you don't feel comfortable calling me a
4:42king, a god as such, but you want to
4:44reaffirm me in being a [ __ ] And then
4:45I got to think of the responses. Words
4:47have an impact. When I call the young
4:48man a king, how he start to stand up and
4:50we talk about facts, but also feelings
4:52matter, right? How you make a young man
4:53feel when you call him a certain word,
4:55how you reaffirm him in his presence.
4:57And then I think about like I study
4:58media. I think about 1915, the first
5:00depiction of from Hollywood was the
5:02[ __ ] through the through a birth of a
5:03nation. So now when we see people say we
5:05lazy or we don't have a certain type of
5:07work, I think that's cuz the only
5:08depiction you have of a black man out of
5:09America was the [ __ ] You know what I
5:11mean? But reaffirming it, show me the
5:13wars that we won. Show me the people
5:14that did stand on something. Show me
5:15Hannibal. Show me the contributions we
5:17made to society. We ain't just [ __ ]
5:19So when I think of a [ __ ] I often
5:20think of those that's been lost and
5:22don't know the sense of self. And we say
5:23that knowledge itself is not just
5:25vitamins prevention, but it also ignites
5:26collective liberation when you know who
5:28I am. So when I speak to young men, I
5:30understand the power of language, the
5:31neurological responses that they ignite,
5:33but more importantly how it makes
5:34somebody feel. So I don't think we
5:35should use the word [ __ ] at all.
5:37>> So doc, then this is for Dr. Dyson. Uh
5:40you are the one person on this uh panel
5:42who is like, yes, yes, absolutely,
5:46my [ __ ]
5:47So on that, I'm curious to know um you
5:50know, when you hear these very visceral,
5:52passionate responses about what the
5:54N-word means to folks who are sitting
5:56here, why is your response so different
5:59knowing it's treacherous past, knowing
6:01its history, um particularly when used
6:03to inflict pain, harm, or death upon
6:06black folks, why is your response so
6:07different?
6:08>> No, I look, listening to all everybody
6:11here with the exception of uh President
6:13Johnson, I I know he shares uh views
6:15with with others. I I understand all
6:17that. Uh but language is flexible,
6:21language is fluid, it evolves over space
6:23and time, and I acknowledge all of this.
6:28At the same time, when I was reading Dr.
6:29Hiram Smith's book, What's Up, My [ __ ]
6:31where he talks about the fact that very
6:34few people were actually kings, most of
6:36us were average black people. It's all
6:38right. I think as brother Jordan talked
6:41about it,
6:42uh to speak about us as quick kings and
6:44queens, but the average black person was
6:47not that. So, that's an assertion of a
6:50kind of idealized state of being as
6:52well. The reason, look, I I didn't hear
6:55[ __ ] first time from a rapper. I heard
6:58it from preachers. If you read Dr. Henry
7:00Mitchell's book about black preaching,
7:01he talks about an encounter between
7:03Sandy Ray out of Brooklyn and Dr.
7:05Frederick George Sampson, who happened
7:07to be my pastor in Detroit, and
7:09referring to each other or one to the
7:11other as my [ __ ] Uh Martin Luther King
7:14Jr. the night before he died, uh
7:16playfully rebuked Andrew Young by taking
7:19a pillow and saying, "Where you been,
7:21little nigga?" Now, I don't think
7:23anybody's going to deny that Martin
7:24Luther King Jr., though he was certainly
7:25not perfect, was certainly the
7:28embodiment of the struggle for black
7:30self-determination and a positive
7:31self-conception uh as anybody ever in
7:34our community. So, when I hear [ __ ] I
7:36hear warmth, I hear beauty, I hear
7:38terror. Uh there's no question the fact
7:41that black people sometimes internalize
7:43what [ __ ] means, but we know that it
7:45can be quite
7:47problematic, and it can also be quite
7:49complicated. You can use it as a as a
7:51greeting, "What's up, my nigga?" You can
7:53use it as an interrogation, "Nigga?"
7:58You can use it as celebration, "My
8:00nigga." You can use it as a rebuff,
8:03"Nigga." So, there are multiple ways in
8:06which [ __ ] operates and we can say just
8:09like women use the B word, right? Among
8:12themselves not with us or gay and
8:14lesbian people have appropriated that
8:17term [ __ ] and use it among themselves. As
8:19Dr. Hiram Smith again points out, this
8:22didn't start with hip hop. Black people
8:24in 1850s were using [ __ ] and whether
8:27you think it's because of the deletion
8:29of the R that we did in the south or
8:31because we adopted some kind of British
8:34talk. The point is [ __ ] is complicated
8:36and beautiful and what black people have
8:38done with [ __ ] is amazing. What we
8:41have been able to manage a kind of
8:43complexity, a kind of nuance, a kind of
8:46revolt to the world and I don't think
8:48that we should stop using it because
8:50white people get confused. White people
8:51are grown. They go to the moon, they run
8:54parts of the world, they're billionaires
8:56but they can't not say the word [ __ ]
8:58[ __ ] please. So, I think that at the
9:00end of the day we've got to assert the
9:02legitimacy of this term that has evolved
9:05out of our culture where we have sent
9:08messages to each other and to ourselves
9:11about both affirmation and recrimination
9:13and hurt and pain at the same time.
9:15>> I want to go to D really quick because
9:18in 2007 the NAACP
9:22buried the N word.
9:39There was a whole casket. There were
9:40eulogies from Julian Bond y'all to Kwame
9:44Kilpatrick. There was a for real funeral
9:46but I will ask you D, what do you think
9:49has happened since that 2007 very, you
9:54know, dramatic ceremonial burial of the
9:56N word?
9:57>> So, I'm going to start where
10:00Dr. Dyson left off.
10:02As black folks we set culture and people
10:04adapt how we move, how we sing, what we
10:07say.
10:08And in uses of the word we're given
10:10license
10:11to folks outside of our community,
10:13whether we realize it or not. And so,
10:15when we give that license, and then we
10:17hear it back, and we get angry,
10:19should we be getting angry, or should we
10:22monitor how we want to be reflected? You
10:25know, Birth of a Nation was mentioned
10:26earlier. We got into trying to impact
10:29the images of black folks in 1950 1915.
10:34We We jumped on Amos and Andy, and you
10:36cannot find an Amos and Andy episode
10:39because of a legal settlement in the
10:41NAACP. Uh when Richard Pryor went to
10:43Africa and came back and did his
10:45stand-up, he said, "You know, we're not
10:47that. I would not use that word again.
10:50This is not about hip-hop. This is not
10:52about how pretty or ugly a word is. This
10:55is about whether or not we're going to
10:56give other people license
10:58to use a word that have been offensive
11:01and have political and economic meaning
11:04to uh as it relates to our well-being.
11:06>> But don't don't you think
11:08Y'all acting like we invented the term.
11:10White folk invented the term.
11:11>> It doesn't matter. It does matter. It
11:13matters a whole lot because if white
11:14folk invented it, and now we're saying
11:16we don't want to give them license to
11:17say it. They didn't ask us for
11:19permission to say [ __ ] They said it
11:21themselves. What we did was try to
11:23engage in a kind of a linguistic
11:26negotiation with the terms of our
11:27existence. And so, you can take the word
11:30[ __ ] away, and they can still treat us
11:32like a [ __ ] if they call us a
11:33hamburger or a cookie. The point is that
11:35at the end of the day, we can't
11:36predicate our engagement with linguistic
11:39or rhetorical forces because of the fact
11:42that it might upset, or it might create
11:44the belief in white people that they
11:45can't say it. Most white folk know they
11:47can't say it. Most white folk don't say
11:49it. The reason why you don't see people
11:50on television, on radio, and when they
11:52do as white people, they are rebuked,
11:55they don't do it because there has been
11:56a limit established. Brother Lenard
11:58talks about black privilege. That is a
12:00black privilege that I don't think we
12:02should easily surrender. And if we do
12:04so, if we do it based upon white people,
12:06that is the most white supremacist thing
12:07imaginable that now we have to genuflect
12:10before the altar of their linguistic
12:12purity because they are afraid of their
12:14ears being penetrated by this word that
12:16they now feel that they have permission
12:18to say.
12:18>> They ain't asking us for permission.
12:20They're saying it regardless.
12:21>> a black white reality, right? If I go to
12:23Korea, I don't want to see Koreans
12:24calling me the N-word.
12:26>> Absolutely.
12:26>> go to China, I don't want them rapping
12:28the N-word because we are so
12:30domesticated, we don't realize the power
12:33of our culture and what people pick up
12:35and how they see us. When I'm on the
12:37continent of Africa, any of the 54
12:39countries, they see a black American as
12:43being something from a boys in the hood.
12:46We have to change the image by which
12:48people see us, how they hear us, and
12:50what they respond to.
12:52When I was in Detroit, I went to the
12:54better high school than you did.
12:56Western High School was the most diverse
12:58high school, still is.
13:00If we catch one of the white boys
13:02messing with the Puerto Ricans saying
13:03it, they get socked in the mouth.
13:06Why should we give people license
13:09>> How is it giving them license, though?
13:10How is it How is you using it giving
13:12them license?
13:13>> Because we set standards. We are the
13:15culture. People try to emu- emulate us
13:17all the time.
13:18>> But they know not to But But I'm saying
13:20most white people I'm not saying all
13:22white people
13:22>> there. Stop your sort. You said they
13:24know not to.
13:26>> I'm saying I'm saying empirically
13:28verifiable information and evidence
13:30suggests to us most white people in our
13:32presence in public. I'm not Brother
13:34Squires made a difference between
13:36commercial and private and public. I'm
13:38saying in in public most white folk are
13:40not saying the word [ __ ]
13:42>> In our presence.
13:43>> That's what I'm saying. I'm in public.
13:45They can say what they I can't control
13:46what they do with the crib. What they do
13:48with the crib is what they do with the
13:49crib. I'm saying there's a public
13:51censorship that is imposed upon white
13:53people that to a degree that they don't
13:55feel
13:57you know, successfully able to do so or
13:59feel comfortable. Why do we know that?
14:01Because when they do do it, it's news.
14:03When they do do it, it makes social
14:05media go crazy. So, my point is most
14:08white folk know what the limits are and
14:10they ain't operating with the belief
14:11that they have the ability to say it.
14:13>> I just wanted to get in here 5 minutes
14:15ago. Let go to the list now.
14:16>> I have a different point now, but I just
14:17feel like
14:24But I just think about all the different
14:26ways in which um we have tried to assert
14:28ourselves with like respectability.
14:30>> Mhm.
14:30>> And it does not change the way we are
14:32perceived. Perceived. Like back in the
14:34early 19th century, there was a method
14:37that um you know, people free people in
14:39the north used called moral suasion.
14:41That they were going to try to act and
14:42dress and behave in public in order to
14:45establish their citizenship. They were
14:47not seen as citizens. It didn't matter
14:49what they were wearing and what they had
14:50on. That this white supremacy was larger
14:53than them. So, I think that um to me
14:56>> picking back on that's the source she's
14:57doing. Okay.
14:57>> Thank you. Thank you.
14:58>> Thank you.
14:59>> But but I think too that there's like a
15:01um there's a subversion. There's a real
15:03subversion, satire, and protest when
15:07black people are using the N-word. And I
15:09do think Listen, I don't want to use it.
15:11I've never said it. It is so It is dry
15:13in my mouth. So, I'm talking about
15:15people like my father who's who's who is
15:18Richard Pryor, who's who stepped into
15:20that conversation and wanted to give
15:22voice to an authentic black reality. Um
15:25and I just think thinking that taking
15:27that word out of black mouths is going
15:29to cure the problem of white supremacy
15:31or or white people saying it is We They
15:34had 400 year right? They had 400 years
15:36to to squash it and make it go away and
15:38they didn't.
15:40>> Well, yeah. Go ahead and say
15:41>> No, I was going to say the way I would
15:43want to come back in the conversation is
15:44to say
15:46my decision to use or not use or or my
15:48analysis of how people use the word does
15:49not begin with white people.
15:51>> Right.
15:51>> I grew up in New York City. I've been
15:53living in the DC area for almost 20
15:54years. I don't I I live in a majority
15:56black county. I I don't live my life
15:58saying, "Well, what do white people
15:59think about this particular thing?" For
16:00me, what's much more important is not
16:03what other people call me. It's what I
16:04answer to. It's what I believe about
16:05myself. My wife and I raising our four
16:07children, we don't raise them with
16:09specific values and principles because
16:12well, when you go outside, a white
16:13person is going to see you this way. We
16:15raised them that way because we want
16:16them to know who they are and whose they
16:17are. They're created in God's image. So,
16:20for me it's not whether white people use
16:22it or or don't use it in in, you know,
16:24to to the professor's point, I think
16:26yes, white people don't use the word in
16:27public because there's so certain social
16:29sanctions that go along with that. My
16:31question to our community always comes
16:33back to the same thing. Why is it that
16:35we always have higher standards for
16:36white people than we do for ourselves?
16:38>> Now, the line up
16:39>> No,
16:40I'll I'll sta- I'll stand on that. That
16:42is Let me quote the professor. Let me
16:44quote the professor.
16:45>> Hold on. Hold on. Hold on.
16:47>> This is empirically true.
16:48>> Okay, hold on. Empirically true? Cite
16:50your empirical source. Because that is
16:52nonsense. We have higher standards for
16:55white people than we do
16:56You got to work twice as good.
16:57>> No, no, no.
16:58>> Okay, I want to hear your empirical
16:59source.
16:59>> We give white people more grace than we
17:00give each other. I know that much.
17:03>> When it comes when it comes to to
17:05language, when when it comes to imagery,
17:07there's certain Let me tell you
17:08something. If Eminem ever let the
17:10letters n i g get to the front of his
17:12lips, there would be boycotts all across
17:14urban radio.
17:15>> He did it. Does he not know that?
17:16>> Yeah.
17:17>> And and he and he and there's a price to
17:18pay. But but there are artists who
17:20who who talk about GMO mu- drill music
17:23as a subgenre is all GMO, guns, murder,
17:25ops.
17:25>> Right.
17:26>> Nobody's getting boycotted. The only
17:27time black artists get boycotted is if
17:29they say things against um uh other
17:32protected communities. If they make
17:33jokes about LGBT people. If they say,
17:36"Oh, my money is kosher." Then they have
17:37to uh apologize and they have to go uh
17:40sit sit with a rabbi and do some some
17:41some training.
17:42>> Well, isn't that easily explainable,
17:44right? Cuz you're not part of that
17:45community.
17:45>> No, that That's fine. I'm I'm not
17:47talking about whether it's explainable.
17:48I'm saying we should keep the standards
17:50high for ourselves because of ourselves.
17:53Not in order to appease anybody else or
17:55to explain how anybody else lives cuz if
17:58>> Who said that though? I'm I think I'm
17:59struggling cuz I heard you say there was
18:01empirical data to support that we're
18:03harder on ourselves than we are to white
18:06people.
18:07>> No, I'm saying we have higher standards.
18:09>> Okay, what is that source? Like I don't
18:11Number one, I'm saying every Actually,
18:13let me go to the audience right now.
18:15How many of you all grew up with we have
18:18to be twice as good? Raise your hands.
18:20Okay, and even on the panel, at least
18:22well two of us, three of us. Oh, Delano
18:24heard that, too. Okay.
18:26Um and so when we have to be twice as
18:29good as who?
18:32>> Yeah.
18:32>> As as white people to get half as far.
18:34But but that's But here here here the
18:36here the point I'm making. Just hear the
18:37point I'm making. Hear the point I'm
18:38making.
18:38>> Okay.
18:39>> I'm saying and I'm only use going to
18:41hip-hop because hip-hop ushered in the
18:43the widespread commercial use of the
18:45word, right? I'm going there because for
18:48the better part of the last 40 years,
18:49I've seen artists
18:50>> going to have to fact I'm going to have
18:52to cite your source on that, too. Did
18:53hip-hop
18:54It was hip-hop
18:55>> Widespread commercial use, I promise.
18:57>> We didn't have black-exploitation films
18:59before that?
18:59>> like that. They weren't as big as they
19:01they never got as big as hip-hop.
19:02>> Not hip-hop is
19:03>> global from
19:04>> Widespread commer- I'm going to have
19:05>> Black power, Richard Pryor
19:06>> They didn't they didn't invent it, they
19:07glorified it and they
19:08>> They amplified it.
19:10>> But but but
19:11>> I mean international, they exported it
19:13around the world.
19:14>> the the reason Calvin Butts was was had
19:16a steamroller roll over CDs, right, in
19:18New York City and C. Delores Tucker was
19:20because of the use of that language. And
19:22so again, I'm talking about the
19:23commercial use. And the question I'll
19:25pose to to the professor to the good
19:26professor is
19:28um
19:30do you if if you hear artists saying it,
19:33right? You say, "Okay, that's part of
19:34their But what if you go to a concert
19:36and you see white people in the audience
19:38repeating it?
19:39>> Yes.
19:39>> Would you be offended by that?
19:40>> Absolutely.
19:41>> That's the part that I'm
19:42>> That's the point I was making earlier.
19:44>> You're giving license
19:45>> Let me say wait, man.
19:47>> Are you telling me that white people are
19:49insignificantly unintelligent that they
19:52can't determine that you can say this,
19:54but you can't say this? I can say all
19:56this part until the N-word. And if some
19:59rapper gives them permission to say so,
20:00this is what I say, be careful cuz
20:02rapper X can tell you to do that, but
20:04rapper but homeboy B outside this
20:06stadium is going to whip your ass if you
20:08try to repeat that word. So I'm saying I
20:10don't infantilize white people.
20:13>> Because
20:14>> Because it's not necessary. I mean, you
20:16got 50 million words.
20:18Why is that Why is it the dog got a 100
20:20MILLION? WHAT?
20:23WHY IS IT THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION for
20:25the Advancement of Colored People?
20:27>> I was going there next. I'm checking my
20:29questions.
20:29>> No, no, no. I'm saying why because I can
20:31tell you why cuz when we were created
20:33those were on the table they were not
20:34considered white although we may
20:35consider them white today. White is a
20:37social construct so folks who sit around
20:39a table was around a table for their own
20:41protection. If you was Irish, Italian,
20:43if you was Jewish, that's colored in in
20:45that context in 1909.
20:47>> 2026, that's where we are.
20:49>> That's why it was created then. You ask
20:51why colored, that's why.
20:52>> No, I'm not asking about then. I
20:53understand then. I'm saying right now,
20:55why is it that the NAACP hasn't changed
20:57its name? Because you you have a brand,
20:59you have an identification, people
21:01understand what colored mean now. It's
21:03it's circled around. People love
21:04colored.
21:04>> guess what we have done since I've been
21:06in. We market the five letters and not
21:08the name that go under there because the
21:09brand you cannot change. Coca-Cola was
21:12about cocaine in the drink but they're
21:13not going to change their name from
21:14Coca-Cola because
21:15>> my point for me. It's complicated. IT'S
21:17NUANCED.
21:30>> CUZ AGAIN I
21:31BUT BUT I DON'T KNOW
21:32>> YES.
21:33>> HEY, cuz we can't be here all day,
21:34friends.
21:36I appreciate claim one. Dr. Dyson, it
21:39sounds like it's changed from a hard yes
21:40to a complicated.
21:41>> Oh, NO.
21:42>> OH, NO.
21:43>> [ __ ] I MEAN NO.
21:45I'M STRAIGHT [ __ ]
21:47>> OKAY, MY [ __ ] WE GOING TO CLAIM TWO.
21:49>> RIGHT.
21:50>> ALL RIGHT. SO, BEFORE we get into the
21:51second claim, which is that the N-word
21:54is derived from the Amharic word
21:56"negus", which means king, let's roll
21:58this clip.
22:00>> Negus.
22:02>> Negus? Could you use it in a sentence?
22:05>> The Negus ruled Ethiopia until the coup
22:07of 1974.
22:11>> So,
22:14I wanted to play that in part because
22:16our EP Geraldine has a lifeline we
22:18called earlier. Jaime Asifa told us that
22:21that was not the pronunciation, the
22:23correct pronunciation of a king. It's
22:25actually "negus", which is king. And for
22:27women, for queen, it's negast.
22:30>> Right.
22:30>> Negast. And so, when you hear negast and
22:32that T is kind of soft, you know,
22:34Kendrick said, "I'mma do a little
22:35artwork here." Pulitzer Prize-winning
22:37hip-hop artist
22:38Kendrick Lamar.
22:39>> He's a
22:41>> He came up with
22:43HE IS A PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING ARTIST.
22:45>> HE IS.
22:46>> ANYWAY,
22:46>> But you know that's complicated.
22:47>> Well,
22:48>> Ooh.
22:49>> I'm not doing this today. That's another
22:50show and I'm going to let you fight it
22:51out with Kendrick.
22:52>> up, Drake?
22:52>> But oh no.
22:53>> Oh no.
22:54>> OH.
22:56>> OH YEAH.
22:59OH THAT'S THE SHOW.
23:00>> THAT'S THE SHOW.
23:01>> Y'ALL, THIS IS NOT VERSUS.
23:04THIS IS NOT VERSUS.
23:04>> BUT IN RELATIONSHIP TO WHAT YOU'RE
23:05TALKING ABOUT, THOUGH, Kendrick says, "I
23:07am not black."
23:08>> Kill his mic.
23:09>> Hey, for the record, Drake only say neg.
23:11He can only say half of it.
23:14Drake said, "Light-skinned still a dark
23:15nigger." Kendrick said, "I'm black.
23:17Don't call me black no more." That's
23:19your king? All right, I'm just
23:20>> Anyway,
23:22back to claim two.
23:23>> Yes.
23:24>> We We like to talk about things that
23:26come up. This is, of course, on his
23:28record To Pimp a Butterfly. And at the
23:30end of the record, he cites that we use
23:33negus as n e g u s, and it's a way of
23:36saying king. How many of you all agree
23:38with Kendrick on this?
23:40And can you cite the source?
23:42>> I can I can say why I disagree with it.
23:44>> I would love to hear it cuz I know you
23:45stay ready. Don't say nothing bad about
23:47Kendrick. I cut you
23:48>> No, I love Kendrick. I I Kendrick is a
23:50genius, but Dr. Hiram Smith, again, goes
23:52through this whole kind of etymological
23:54derivation, and he shows that negus, why
23:57would a slave master call his chattel
24:00enslaved people kings and queens, right?
24:03Then he talks about the Amharic and that
24:05that had no relationship to Central and
24:07West Africa versus what was going on in
24:09Ethiopia. So, there that that's uh it
24:12sounds great because it makes you feel
24:14good you calling each other king, but
24:15that's not where it derives from. Then
24:16he goes through the Spanish version the
24:19Portuguese version the French version
24:21the Latin version. It is a complicated
24:23amalgamation of different, you know,
24:24etymological derivations. So, but that
24:26ain't one of them. That does not
24:28represent what happens when black people
24:30are doing their thing with [ __ ]
24:32>> Well, you brought up our good friend Dr.
24:34Hiram Smith and he this is his book
24:37What's up, my [ __ ] He is in the
24:38audience with us today. He has done a
24:40ton of research including researching
24:42more than 2,300 stories of formerly
24:45enslaved people listening to that audio.
24:48Talk to us about the real origin story
24:50since it's not I'm hard I'm hard
24:52tradition.
24:52>> Thanks for having me.
24:54Well, the origins of the term [ __ ]
24:58hard R
25:00they are complicated and one of the
25:02reasons why they're so complicated is
25:03because we don't have a lot of
25:05written documentation of the term until
25:07you get up till about the the 18th and
25:1019th centuries. But, what we do know is
25:13that the term originated with with
25:15Latin. The Latin word niger.
25:18Now, a lot of people try to pronounce it
25:19as niger, but that is not how the word
25:21was pronounced in Latin. The guh was
25:23always hard and the I was always
25:26pronounced as E.
25:27Now, Oxford English Dictionary lists the
25:30the first attestation of
25:32[ __ ] in English as 1577 and 1584 by
25:36educated men who knew how to read and
25:38write Latin.
25:40But, we have to take into consideration
25:44the transatlantic slave trade. All of
25:46the the colonial powers who were
25:48involved in the slave trade had some
25:52form of the word that they had borrowed
25:55from Latin uh that
25:58that meant black person and and it was
26:00related to the term [ __ ] in English.
26:02So, in French you had negra in Spanish
26:05you had negro and Portuguese and
26:07Portuguese negro which in Spanish and
26:09Portuguese by the way, they weren't
26:11borrowed. They were passed down through
26:14centuries of
26:15unbroken communication. You have the
26:18Dutch neger.
26:20And the question is how do you
26:22adjudicate between all of these
26:24different potential contributors? Well,
26:26we know that in the Caribbean before
26:28these islands in the Caribbean became
26:30permanent colonies, they were passed
26:32around and and
26:34colonial powers were vying for for for
26:36for those for those places.
26:39It's possible that
26:42all of these terms, negra, negger,
26:45negro, [ __ ] have contributed to what
26:49we what we have in the in the English
26:50language today. We can't really
26:52definitively say where the word comes
26:55from,
26:56but it came from one of those sources.
26:57One of the things that we can definitely
26:59say is it did not come from negus.
27:01Ethiopia wasn't even part of the
27:03transatlantic slave trade. You're on the
27:05wrong side of the map. It's a beautiful
27:07It sounds beautiful. I wish it were
27:08true.
27:10But it's just not true. Sorry, Kendrick.
27:13>> Okay, well, that's the only place where
27:14Kendrick is losing in my eyes.
27:17Um I I really appreciate that. Thank you
27:19so much, Dr. Smith. Let's talk for a
27:21moment about our power. And I think that
27:23this is important an important
27:25transition before we get to claim three
27:26because there is something I think that
27:28you all are seeing about us holding on
27:31to this word culturally, um in hip-hop,
27:34um at home, playing a spades game, I
27:37play dominoes, dominoes, whatever it is,
27:39there's something about it. And um in an
27:41earlier conversation, Dr. Smith and I
27:43got to do my podcast about this very
27:44thing, and I was really wrestling with
27:46this idea that we don't have much power.
27:50This is one thing
27:53that belongs to us that we are refusing
27:55to kind of give up. Liz, I want to come
27:58to you because cuz I think about your
28:00father. Um when I was two, my dad um had
28:03a Richard Pryor special on. My dad told
28:05My mom told my dad that was not a good
28:06idea. I repeated words he said. They
28:09were curse words, not [ __ ] but I
28:11probably would have said that, too, if
28:12he got there. He did have um kind of a
28:15pilgrimage back to the continent and
28:16changed his mind, but originally, his
28:19use of the word was still a form of
28:20protest.
28:21>> Yes. That's right. I mean, he he decided
28:24that he was going to give up like the
28:26the comedy stick, and that he was going
28:29to embrace where he really came from,
28:31which was he came from uh impoverished
28:34part of Peoria, Illinois and he was
28:36going to speak the way that his people
28:37spoke and that was using that was using
28:40the N-word in the house. That was
28:41talking about sex in a way that maybe
28:42people didn't in other families. That
28:45was you know, all of those things and
28:47even talking about even talking about
28:49racism and the police, you know, police
28:51brutality that he was going to do that
28:52on stage and start cultivating that
28:55authentic voice and part of that was
28:57using the N-word. Two of his Grammy
28:58Award-winning albums have the N-word in
29:00the title. But then at the end of that
29:03decade, he followed many people like you
29:05know, that Alex Haley pilgrimage back to
29:08Africa. He went to Kenya, which is East
29:11Africa. Most people went to West Africa,
29:13but he still went and he he said he took
29:16stock and looked around and said in this
29:18context of black people doing the most
29:20menial jobs and black people do it
29:22running the country, does the N-word
29:25work here in this context? And he said
29:27it didn't that he hadn't thought it,
29:29that he hadn't said it and that it
29:31wasn't working for him anymore and that
29:33he said he was never going to call
29:34another black man the N-word.
29:37>> I I'm curious to know what else you all
29:39might think about our source of power.
29:41Is this a thing that we should be
29:42leaning up against as one thing we can
29:44have that other folks can't touch or is
29:46it
29:47>> I don't understand why I don't
29:48understand why using that word makes
29:49would make anybody feel powerful. You
29:52know, like
29:53the good brother Doc said something
29:55earlier when he was saying that white
29:56people invented the word. I don't
29:57understand, you know, using a word that
29:59we know our oppressors were using to
30:02dehumanize us dehumanize us and then
30:04continuing to call our own people that.
30:06And when I was younger, I read a book
30:08that I even reference now called from
30:09from [ __ ] to gods by a brother named
30:11Akil and he used to talk about, you
30:13know, that N-word being your lower
30:15nature and how you should never submit
30:16your will to your lower nature. You
30:18should submit your will to the God in
30:20you, which was your higher nature. So
30:21the name of the book was literally from
30:23N-words to gods and it always made me
30:25think like I don't want to be in the the
30:28N-word mind-state. And if the white man
30:30did invent that word, I want to return
30:31that word to sender. I don't have any
30:33usage of that word, you know, at 48
30:36years old in 2026. I don't know why that
30:38word makes people feel powerful. It
30:40doesn't make me feel powerful when I use
30:41it.
30:42>> Well, I mean, look.
30:44Point taken.
30:45But the point is that the word exists in
30:49an ecosystem where we have been
30:51stigmatized and demonized. Have we
30:53internalized it without question? The
30:54panel has been brilliant about that.
30:56Have we reproduced the very thing that
30:58we are arguing against? We have. But
31:00that's not all we've done. Because when
31:02I hear the word [ __ ] I hear a form of
31:05collective intimacy. I hear my hood in
31:07Detroit. I hear my pastor. I hear the
31:10people that were associated with that
31:12church. From [ __ ] to gods, I get
31:14that, but I've been
31:16as as a Baptist preacher for more than
31:1940 years, I've seen some of the worst
31:22pathologies associated with Christianity
31:25or religion or God that have tried to
31:27sneak in some of the worst beliefs about
31:30the human being that [ __ ] pales in
31:32comparison, so to speak. So, my point is
31:35that if we have developed this word,
31:37some of us dig it, some of us don't.
31:39Some of us understand, we think it has
31:41power, some of us don't. I think it
31:43clearly has power because we're having a
31:45television show about it. We're not
31:47having television show about
31:48We're We're We're not okay
31:51What's going on? This word has a unique
31:54register and it does signify a certain
31:57kind of power. And yes, we have been
31:59denied a whole bunch of other things.
32:01Why would we surrender the privilege
32:03right of Martin Luther King Jr. using
32:05it? And and if King can use it, I'm
32:07saying we can have a lot of arguments
32:09against it, but I think that it shows
32:11that there is a complicated and nuanced
32:13way we can do it. Now, in by saying
32:14this, yes, Redd Foxx, Richard Pryor, the
32:18earlier generations got mad at hip-hop
32:20because hip-hop, as brother Squire said,
32:23put it in a commercial realm, right? We
32:25were playing those records, those were
32:27party records, but they weren't
32:28circulating to the dominant culture.
32:30There's There's no question that hip-hop
32:33has amplified that to the world. And
32:35there's no question that if black women
32:36travel the world, Mr. Johnson, and they
32:39get pissed on their behind because
32:40somebody saw a rap video, right? So, I'm
32:43not arguing with that we can't we can't
32:45say some of this stuff is out of control
32:47and so on and so forth, but when we say
32:48out of control, you stop using the
32:50N-word, you're still a sexist, you're
32:51still a patriarch, you're still a
32:53misogynist. So, my point is let's deal
32:55with the fact that the word has come to
32:57be what it is. Yes, white people
32:59invented it, but like gay people take
33:00the word back, like women take the word
33:02back, and and they don't even mean uh
33:04sometimes physical I mean a human
33:06beings, right? When you say we up in
33:08this, right? Or we up in this as as Dr.
33:11Smith talked about in this book or in a
33:12speech where we talk about the that cat.
33:15That [ __ ] did this. So, we understand
33:17the complicated use of that term. If it
33:20has historically been associated with
33:21people on the slave
33:23on slave plantation, they used that
33:25term. We talking about our ancestors,
33:27our ancestors saw virtue and value in a
33:30term and they were far closer to being
33:32dominated by white supremacy than any of
33:34us are here today. So, I think that our
33:37own history suggests that there is a
33:39power, a power of self-definition, a
33:41power of self-love, a power of
33:43irreverence, and a power of making class
33:45distinctions that sometimes make
33:47bourgeois [ __ ] upset, that make poor
33:49black people upset, that we have to
33:50contend with in a very serious fashion.
33:53>> I wanted to do we even still use it as a
33:54term of endearment in 2026?
33:56>> Yeah.
33:58>> You know what I hear? I hear [ __ ]
33:59[ __ ]
34:00>> Yeah.
34:00>> Broke [ __ ]
34:01>> Young [ __ ]
34:02>> [ __ ] [ __ ] young [ __ ]
34:03>> Right.
34:03>> I saw some white ends AT THE GAS STATION
34:05THIS WEEKEND. I WENT TO THE GAS STATION.
34:07>> AND WHAT I WANTED TO SAY
34:13>> HOLD ON. HOW DO WE GET TO THE BUTTON?
34:14IT'S THE ANOINTING. It just hovers.
34:17>> Jordan, before you jump in here,
34:19Leonard, you said you saw what at the
34:21gas station?
34:21>> Some white ends.
34:22>> What's a white end?
34:23>> HE JUST SAID IT.
34:25IT STANDS FOR YOUNG [ __ ]
34:27WHAT HE'S SPEAKING TO THOUGH IS
34:28IMPORTANT. When you think about words,
34:29we also think about imagery. When I took
34:31I teach young black men. So, I think
34:33it's also a reference point that we
34:34could do the scholastic conversation and
34:36all the studies, but I'm talking about
34:37when you speaking to a young man you ask
34:38him what's the difference between a
34:39young man and a young [ __ ] He got two
34:41images in his head of himself. So, we
34:43not comparing our enslavement, our
34:45oppression to any other group cuz it's
34:47much different. To be brought to
34:48America, stripped of our identity, and
34:50now I'm trying to reaffirm you who you
34:51are. Language is one of the first basis
34:53of a naming system. Right, we name
34:55everything, not only as a
34:55classification, but as identification.
34:57And then when you take on a word, that's
34:59a self-fulfilling prophecy, meaning I'm
35:01taking ownership of a word that was used
35:02to not only degrade my ancestors, but to
35:04categorize me in a particular
35:05identification system. So, I would never
35:08ever use the word without I'm teaching
35:09young black men. I'm not sitting there
35:10saying, "Yo, what up, my nigger?" I'm
35:12saying, "You're not a nigger."
35:14You Why do you feel uncomfortable
35:15calling me a god? That's another
35:17question. We talking about 5% of Nation
35:18of Islam, all these other groups that
35:20also made a big contribution to the
35:21black male existence within America. And
35:23the terminology and language that they
35:24use was never going to ever justify the
35:26use of a colonial term on our people. I
35:28don't know no other group that do it.
35:30People will be even We even refrain from
35:32using the term the derogatory term to
35:34refer to any other ethnic group that we
35:36know of. Cuz we know it come with
35:38ramifications, but yet using [ __ ] it
35:39seem like it's supposed to be a a
35:40cultural acceptance. It's like, "Nah,
35:42you're a nigger." No, you're not.
35:43>> And why is there resistance to speaking
35:45to our higher purpose? Why is there
35:47resistance to say, "You know what? We
35:49are better than this, and we can
35:51glamorize the word." I mean, you know,
35:53the word MF got multiple meanings. But
35:56we don't have to go and say, "You're MF,
35:58and you're an MF, you're my MF." Why
36:00should we hold on to something?
36:02>> do.
36:04>> I didn't say we didn't. Don't hit it no
36:06more. I didn't say we did.
36:08Because at the
36:09>> You're my MF, too.
36:12>> Cuz at the end of the day, all of us up
36:14here, we have to set an example. And if
36:16we want to move forward, young people
36:18are looking at us. They're listening to
36:20us. And the three things that really set
36:22an example is what we say, what we do,
36:25and how we show up.
36:26>> Right.
36:26>> And I think that's the most important
36:28part here. We should be operating to our
36:29highest purpose, cuz we don't know what
36:315-year-old, 7-year-old, or 15-year-old
36:33old
36:33>> But but taking what you're saying, look,
36:35some African-Americans have abandoned
36:37black folks. Some some colored people.
36:40Some
36:41black people have, but the [ __ ]
36:42showed up for those people who are I'm
36:45saying who are poor, dispossessed. So,
36:48they see in that particular figure, they
36:50don't see that term as derisive. They
36:52don't see that term as necessarily
36:55um emblematic of the antagonism that
36:57we've been encouraged to have. They see
36:59something different. It doesn't have to
37:01be in uh it doesn't have to be in
37:02derision.
37:03>> And I have a question. Who
37:05Have you When you When you teach, have
37:07you ever asked any of the young black
37:08men in your classroom, "Are you a
37:09nigger?" Ask them that.
37:10>> Absolutely.
37:11>> And what do they say to you?
37:12>> Yes, I am.
37:13>> And what do they mean by that?
37:14>> What They mean a lot of different
37:16things. They mean that I'm a
37:17>> your source ON THAT. WHO IS THEY?
37:19>> MICHAEL ERIC DYSON class at Vanderbilt
37:21University.
37:22>> Right.
37:23>> Yeah.
37:25>> Yeah, I'm citing my damn self.
37:27>> THIS THE [ __ ] I KNOW BEST. AND WHAT
37:29I'M SAYING TO you is that All I'm saying
37:31is that I agree I agree with what
37:33they're saying in terms of what it can
37:36mean, but it doesn't have to mean that,
37:37right? Necessity is one thing. It
37:40doesn't It can mean all that stuff, but
37:42it can also mean When you talk about
37:43self identified as a determined figure
37:46to do well, I keep saying Martin Luther
37:48King Jr. He ain't the only one. I'm
37:49saying a lot of other brothers and
37:51sisters that I know who are
37:52high-ranking, who are loving themselves,
37:54also understand the intimacy of that
37:56term and don't have to be seen as
37:59self-hating.
37:59>> You know what else they did back then,
38:01Martin Luther King? They cooked with
38:02lard. Are you cooking with lard?
38:03>> Not at all.
38:04>> So, So, why can't you drop the word? Cuz
38:06he said it then doesn't mean
38:07>> kept calling for a reason, right? You
38:08know, because he said it then doesn't
38:10mean we have to do it now.
38:11>> I understand that.
38:12>> We evolve.
38:13>> But allow him to evolve and allow us to
38:15evolve and drop the word.
38:16>> Dr. King is speaking right now.
38:18>> Hey, allow me to evolve this
38:19conversation because we don't have that
38:21much time, but I do want to um and you
38:24can respond in your next
38:26uh response.
38:26>> Okay.
38:27>> I want to ask a truthful question.
38:29Please be honest. For some of you, I can
38:31hit the button because I know you very
38:33well. The question is,
38:35do you use the N-word?
38:38>> No.
38:39>> Yes.
38:39>> No.
38:40>> Sometimes.
38:41>> NO.
38:42>> IT'S COMPLICATED.
38:45>> I'M READY TO LIGHT YOUR UP.
38:48>> OH MY GOD.
38:52>> THAT'S BECAUSE YOU INTIMIDATED OF ME AND
38:54YOU KNEW IT.
38:55>> NO, I'M TRYING I I STRIVE not to. You
38:57know, I
38:58And literally it was this year that
38:59really made me be like, "Yo, I got to
39:01dead this word." You know?
39:02>> When the whole Fat Joe situation
39:04happened. Because
39:05because
39:06>> Well, hold on, Lenard. For those of you
39:07at home that don't know what happened
39:09with Fat Joe, we're going to go ahead
39:10and run this clip.
39:11>> Because I heard when that was going on,
39:12you said, "Yo, Fat Joe ain't black." No,
39:14I am black. Fat Joe is the blackest
39:17[ __ ] you ever seen in your life.
39:19THAT'S A GO LOOK IT UP.
39:21>> I DON'T WANT TO SAY THE N-WORD, OKAY? I
39:23wish I could stop saying it. I know
39:25better and don't do better, okay? And I
39:26know there is nothing funnier to white
39:28supremacists than to see a bunch of
39:30black and brown people arguing about who
39:32can use the word [ __ ] Do we not
39:34realize how silly that looks?
39:38>> And I wanted to start there. This is
39:39actually the beginning of our third
39:40claim, which is it is socially
39:42acceptable for white people and
39:44individuals of other racial backgrounds
39:46to say the N-word.
39:48Um
39:49I want to make sure people understand at
39:52home Fat Joe's dad is Afro-Cuban.
39:55There's another clip we're going to play
39:57just a moment after this, but Lenard,
39:59first I want to hear your point. What
40:00made you change your mind about it this
40:01year?
40:02>> Well, I mean because I've always known
40:04better. Like, you know, the first book
40:05my father ever gave me was Autobiography
40:07of Malcolm X and then that led me to
40:09read, you know, Message to the Black Man
40:10by Honorable Elijah Muhammad. Then I
40:11read from, you know, [ __ ] to God by
40:14by Akil. So, I never wanted to call
40:16myself the N-word. That's why I call
40:17myself Charlamagne tha God. And then,
40:20you know, just throughout time, just
40:22being in the environments that we grow
40:23up in, you do find yourself using the
40:25word, but then I found myself realizing,
40:27"I'm not using this word as a as a term
40:28of endearment. I'm using it the way, you
40:30know, the white people use it." And so,
40:32when I heard Fat Joe have that When I
40:35heard Fat Joe say that, I wasn't even
40:37mad at what Fat Joe said. When I heard
40:38the discourse around it,
40:40>> Mhm.
40:40>> nothing made sense to me. And there was
40:42no justification for using the word. So,
40:45I was just like, "You know what? I'm
40:46going to let it go. Give that back to to
40:48to people cuz I know better.
40:50>> Yeah.
40:50>> And I think I think part of it is
40:52because we we have this tension and and
40:54going back to the good professor, when I
40:55asked him, if you had a concert and you
40:57hear, you know, an artist use the word
40:59and you look to your left and you see,
41:01you know, a white concert goer who paid
41:03for the for the ticket
41:04>> Mhm.
41:04>> repeat the word, would you consider that
41:06offensive? And he said, yes. And I think
41:08the problem is we assume that a word can
41:10be permanently fixed for one group of
41:12people, anybody non-white, and
41:14permanently fluid for a second group of
41:16people, anybody who's black. And that
41:17just doesn't make any sense. To
41:18Charlemagne's point, you know, that word
41:21is still the last word that many
41:23thousands of black men hear right before
41:26another black man takes their life in
41:27this country in the year of our Lord
41:292026. But again, to the professor's
41:32point, is that the only way that black
41:34people Of course not. And I And I know a
41:35a lot of old older black folks and they
41:37will use the word, but again, it's
41:38private. So, how you communicate
41:40privately is different than how you
41:42communicate publicly and that's much
41:44different than how you communicate
41:45commercially. And the last thing I'll
41:46say is this, we live in an era where
41:48it's not just black and white. There
41:50There There's There's an Asian kid today
41:52who's going to school and he's telling
41:53his Hispanic friend, "Oh, what up, man?"
41:55>> Mhm.
41:56>> Yeah.
41:56>> The idea that he's saying that because,
41:58"Oh, man, I I want to lynch this guy."
42:00clearly doesn't doesn't make sense. So,
42:01the the word is fluid, but it's fluid
42:03for everybody and the question to me is
42:05not whether it's socially acceptable cuz
42:07nobody's asking for permission to use
42:09language nowadays.
42:10>> Why is it fluid to everybody? So, for
42:12you, if you're at a concert, you know,
42:14Jay just did his final show in
42:17uh LA.
42:18>> Mhm.
42:18>> He says the N-word quite a bit in his
42:20performance. You see a white concert
42:22goer singing along with the N-word, your
42:25response is
42:26>> Nothing.
42:27But again, part of it, I don't live my
42:29life based on what white people do,
42:31think, or say.
42:31>> Now, Delano, that's hard for me to
42:33understand cuz you work at the Heritage
42:34Foundation.
42:34>> Come yes, come with it.
42:36>> Can I respond?
42:37>> I
42:37got the mic.
42:38>> Oh.
42:39So, the the reason I'm there and the
42:41reason that I do the work that I do
42:43around marriage and family structure is
42:45because many of our institutions do not
42:47do that work. So, my presence there is a
42:49judgment in many respects.
42:50>> Black institutions don't
42:53work on black people. listen.
42:58The color people do
43:00Let me tell you something.
43:02Let me with with all due respect
43:08I I got it. With with all due respect
43:10and humility every time the NAACP has a
43:13national conference, the National Urban
43:14League has a national conference, the
43:16Joint Center for Political and Economic
43:17Studies has a national conference, the
43:19Congressional Black Caucus has a
43:20national conference, I either go to the
43:22agenda foundation, excuse me.
43:24I either go to the agenda or I show up.
43:26And I look to see state of the black
43:28family decline in black marriage rates,
43:31nothing. I was at CBC last month.
43:34Nothing about marriage. CBC Foundation
43:37So so I say that with
43:40I did actually. You did? Yes.
43:42To the president of the CBC Foundation
43:44and the vice president. I did actually.
43:46Did they respond to you? No, but I spoke
43:47to the vice president. And hopefully
43:49we'll connect. And I would love to
43:50connect with with um Mr. Johnson.
43:59Please do.
44:14Mhm.
44:36Yeah.
44:55In this country 70% of black
44:57>> are born to unmarried parents. In New
44:58York City, it's 75%. In DC, it's 77%. In
45:01Baltimore, it's 83%. In Louisiana,
45:03Mississippi, and Arkansas, it's 82%.
45:06The idea that we would be
45:08>> Jelani Center for Source
45:09>> The Centers for Disease Control, look up
45:11final birth data for 2023.
45:13>> Centers for Disease Control right now. I
45:15don't for a lot of reasons.
45:16>> But but but but hold on. But hold on
45:17because I I I think I I think I think
45:20I I think you made a good point, right?
45:21I'm not talking about whether we discuss
45:24issues facing black families. I'm
45:26talking about the decline of the married
45:28two-parent household. Let me be very
45:30specific with my language. And what I'm
45:32saying is that marriage and family
45:34structure policy is not a priority on
45:36the institutions that claim to represent
45:38black people.
45:39>> What is
45:40What is
45:41What is
45:42What is marriage and family structure
45:44policy? What does that even mean? Is it
45:46having a fair
45:47child to pay is a fair wage? Is it Is it
45:49health care access?
45:51>> Mhm.
45:51>> Is it quality education?
45:53>> It's having access to your dad on
45:54everyday basis cuz he's married to your
45:55mom and he live with
45:56>> Well, maybe we should talk about the
45:58mass incarceration rates and
46:00the way that
46:01Yes, we should.
46:01>> I I I I I don't want to I don't want to
46:04you know, get us off track. SO,
46:10>> THE REVEREND JESSE JACKSON, GOD BLESS
46:12HIS SOUL, deeply involved with speaking
46:16about family structure and argued about
46:19the particular ways in which the family
46:21is were pulverized and pounded by these
46:25social structures. And he talked about
46:28the relationship between So, we don't do
46:29it in a way that some of our white
46:32conservative brothers and sisters do it
46:34to extract it from the larger flow of
46:37white supremacy, social injustice, and
46:40public policy that imposed certain
46:42limits upon it. We know that the the
46:43Moynihan Report in 1965, if I can cite
46:46the source, where he talked about a
46:47tangled web of pathology, I don't think
46:49a black mouth replicating a white
46:52supremacist logic is paying attention to
46:54the black family. And Brother Squires,
46:56I'm glad you were there, but the
46:57Heritage Foundation has done more damage
47:00to African-American peoples and the
47:03conception of what the family is about
47:05than a whole bunch of other things than
47:06any [ __ ] that I know. So, what I'm
47:08saying is that what we have to do is pay
47:10attention to the
47:13But pay attention to the serious ways in
47:15which those issues are real, but not
47:17extracted from other issues that we pay
47:20attention to. So, did did the Heritage
47:22Foundation have anything to do with
47:24Trayvon Martin and the way in which he
47:25had a mother and father who were healthy
47:27and alive or these other black families
47:29where they have a mother and father
47:31there? No, because they have a preset
47:33ideological formation that judges the
47:35black family before they try to help it.
47:37So, at the end of the day, I think that
47:39what you're I'm glad that you were
47:40there, but let's let's own up to the
47:42fact that the the Heritage Foundation
47:45has been wholly destructive in so many
47:47different ways and I can cite them
47:49sources for the reports that have been
47:50done. But let me get back to the N-word
47:51thing here in terms of what I think that
47:54look, black people have a complicated
47:57relationship, yes, to that word, but I'm
47:59I'm an absolutist when it comes to this.
48:02That if you are black, you can do it and
48:04if you ain't, you can't. And it ain't
48:05that's it ain't that hard. And white
48:07folk do a lot of other stuff. Why are we
48:09worried about if we say it, others will
48:12say it? I can guarantee you this, if
48:14every black person in America stopped
48:15saying the N-word right now, stopped
48:17saying [ __ ] today, it's not going to
48:19stop any other processes that are
48:21already in place because the NAACP
48:23buried that word that [ __ ] was
48:25resurrected in a second. Right? So, I'm
48:28saying to you, right? And I use that
48:30metaphorically as a metonym for a
48:32particular place.
48:36m e t o n y m, one thing standing in for
48:39the other. You say, "Where my cash?"
48:41you're speaking about your money. So,
48:43I'm saying that in that sense that the
48:46the the you can't bury a word. The
48:48belief that you could even bury a word
48:50given the complicated and nuanced
48:52interpretation to which it it it is
48:54lent. And the black people who have
48:56invested serious engagement with that
48:58word, who are not stereotypes of
49:00self-hatred, who believe that young boys
49:02can be kings and and girls be queens,
49:05who believe that black people can make
49:06an advance. If we are so vulnerable that
49:09one word can just derail us because we
49:12use it, then who's really got the power
49:14and what are we saying about our own
49:16society?
49:16>> being derailed. It's not about being
49:17derailed, right? I don't believe in the
49:19performative stuff. So, I don't That's
49:20why I haven't even tried to defend the
49:21bare of the N-word. I am saying, "Why
49:23Why are we not shooting for a higher
49:26purpose?" What Why are we
49:27What what we say,
49:30what we do, and how we show up.
49:32>> People are Most of them don't have the
49:34N-word IN THEM.
49:35>> MOST.
49:37>> NOT MOST.
49:39>> OH, I got N-word in some OF THEM. WAIT A
49:41MINUTE. MY BOOK ON TUPAC HAS the N-word.
49:43My book about Tupac has the N-word.
49:46>> why you got it in there. All I'm saying
49:48is, why are we not trying to project a
49:51higher purpose? People are watching. Our
49:54young people
49:54>> Here's the thing. WHO WHO SAID THAT'S
49:56HIGHER?
49:57>> HOLD ON. Excuse me, guys. Um yes, I'll
49:59do this, but here's why. We're still on
50:01claim three, and claim three is about
50:03people of other races using this N-word.
50:06So, okay, let me just roll this clip for
50:08you cuz sometimes um it might be a
50:10condition. Let's roll that clip.
50:13>> First bath of the night for a vital part
50:15of movie making.
50:18>> Okay, so in response to that clip.
50:21>> Here's the problem. Is not only that he
50:22said it,
50:24it was on delay, they didn't stop it,
50:27they allowed it to fester before they
50:29they reacted to it in response to the
50:32outrage.
50:33>> Yeah.
50:33>> So, it wasn't just him, we have softened
50:36that culture that it's okay.
50:38>> Yeah.
50:39>> That's the problem.
50:40>> Well, let me I just have a question for
50:42you for for uh Delroy Lindo and for
50:44Michael B. Jordan. Would your responses
50:46have been the same to that?
50:48Cuz I don't think mine would have been.
50:51Well, when they he he yells it out and
50:53they're just standing there like
50:54>> They're probably in shock.
50:55>> I was definitely I would have been in
50:57shock, but I would HAVE SHOCKED THEM
50:58BACK.
50:58>> BUT I
50:59I WOULDN'T PUT THE BURDEN on them
51:00because they're trying to be decent and
51:03embodying all of the higher virtues that
51:05we want to see.
51:07>> Right.
51:07>> Cuz cuz a [ __ ] would have said, "Did
51:09that cracker
51:10>> call me a two-rat lady?"
51:12>> But but but look, a physical symptom of
51:14a disease, yes, is a category, but
51:16here's the question. Why is it that you
51:18didn't say anything else? Why didn't you
51:20say F? Why didn't you say B? Why didn't
51:22you say So, even that
51:23>> later.
51:24>> Well, well, I'm just saying that even in
51:26the the ecosystem of demonization, that
51:30penetrates even with those kind of
51:31diseases. So, I I just say at the end of
51:33the day, again, if you black, yes. If
51:35you not black, then no. And and I don't
51:38think it's any complicated to say
51:40there's some stuff. You know right now
51:41there's some stuff you will never say,
51:42not in public. You know it right now,
51:44you will never utter it. And I'm saying
51:46the the the so-called [ __ ] that
51:49censorship exists for a reason, and it
51:51offers privilege to people who have very
51:53little else in this world, and we can
51:55teach them to raise I got a PhD from
51:57Princeton. I'm a [ __ ] from the west
51:59side of Detroit. I was raised by people
52:01who understood what [ __ ] were about,
52:02who taught me the difference between
52:04[ __ ] as our young brother Jordan was
52:06talking about, and demonizing and hating
52:09ourselves. We can do all of that. If
52:11Martin Luther King can do it, I think
52:12anybody can do it, and we can say with a
52:15poise and equanimity, yes, we understand
52:17what we should do and not do. We
52:19understand when we should say it and not
52:20say it. And at the end of the day, we
52:22have the right and privilege to do so.
52:24And I think that that is not a white
52:26supremacist notion. That's a black
52:28self-determination.
52:29>> you were saying
52:29>> Doc is leading on this Martin Luther
52:31King piece.
52:32>> You know when white people say, "I have
52:34black friends."
52:36>> I have I HAVE A DREAM.
52:37>> Please has been trying to get in. Let
52:39this lovely queen reclaim her time.
52:42>> this is what my book is about, is that
52:45that when they were up there on stage,
52:48it's the There's a trauma and a shock
52:50that happens in that moment. To expect
52:51somebody to respond in that moment to
52:54being dressed up to the nines at this
52:56the this highfalutin, you know, award
52:59ceremony, and then hear this lowest
53:02attack that you could possibly hear. How
53:05do you respond? And like what I'm trying
53:07to write about through this book is is
53:09bring talk about intersectionality is
53:12how the emotional and the history and
53:15the personal come together. And that's
53:18what makes this word so deeply
53:19complicated is because I could map my
53:22entire life by how by the times I was
53:25called and confronted the N-word
53:27unexpectedly and reacted in some ways
53:29the same way those two did on stage. And
53:31that's I mean
53:32>> I think that's what's important is to
53:34know that they were doing the very best
53:36they could in that situation.
53:37>> And what is the prior saying that you
53:38could every time we hear a white person
53:41use the N-word we get triggered because
53:43of generational trauma.
53:45>> That's a good point. Boom.
53:47>> So that's a good point, too. So speaking
53:49of hearing white people
53:50create a generational trauma response,
53:53let us roll this clip where Chris Rock
53:56is with the white kings of comedy.
53:58>> He's the blackest white guy I [ __ ]
54:00know.
54:01>> And I'm and then all the the
54:02>> negative things we think about black
54:04people, this [ __ ]
54:05>> You're saying I'm a [ __ ]
54:07>> Yes, you are the niggerest [ __ ] white
54:10man
54:12I have ever
54:16>> The context of this is very important.
54:17>> Okay, I can't wait to hear this context.
54:19>> No, because Chris started off by saying
54:22black people. But then he said you have
54:24all of the negative, you know, traits of
54:26black people. So then Louis C.K. said
54:28the N-word because in his mind a N-word
54:31is the person with all the negative
54:33traits of a black person.
54:35>> Yes. And also Chris Rock
54:37said that in his own stand HBO special.
54:41>> [ __ ] to black people, one of my
54:41favorite comedies.
54:42>> And he repented. But
54:44>> We don't want to be
54:44>> He did repent. Think about the comedy
54:46writers for uh who's that
54:48Not Jamie Fox, Kevin Hart.
54:51And as stand-up and all the offensive
54:53jokes that those writers all white
54:55writers wrote and people laughed at
54:56them.
54:57>> Yeah, right.
54:57>> Yeah.
54:58>> But
54:58this that's a problem. We should like
55:00wait a minute.
55:01For them to feel like they have license.
55:04Where they getting it from? They getting
55:05it because we've set a culture that is
55:07okay.
55:08>> And and it's not it's not just Chris
55:09Rock um and and Louis C.K.
55:12They Go Go back to
55:16Go Go back to the clip with Fat Joe.
55:17When Fat Joe asserts, "I'm the blackest
55:20N-word you know." He's not doing that
55:22cuz he said, "You know, I'm the most
55:23entrepreneurial. I'm the most faithful
55:24to my wife." He's He's And And this is
55:27the problem. Often times when we talk
55:29about blackness, it is defined within a
55:31con- context of of of negativity. And
55:34even the fact
55:35>> think So, first Joe said Joe didn't just
55:37say, "I'm the blackest [ __ ] you know."
55:38He said, "I'm black."
55:40>> Correct. And he said, "I'm the blackest
55:42Correct. And let's be clear.
55:43>> And he's not actually saying it in a
55:44negative connotation. He's talking about
55:46being down for the culture.
55:48>> Part of what Joe Part of what Joe Crack
55:50is saying is like, "Look, I was running
55:51through the Bronx doing what I was
55:53doing." That's I'm putting it in its
55:54proper context. But But
55:56>> can't properly contextualize that.
55:59>> When that's not what he said.
56:01Joe is not separate from the culture.
56:02He's in the culture. He's Afro-Latino.
56:05>> You know, we act as Afro
56:08>> No, we No, WE'RE NOT.
56:09>> HOLD ON.
56:11I RETRACT MY SOURCE BECAUSE Joe himself
56:13has said his dad is Afro-Cuban. You got
56:15a You got a a DNA you want to run that
56:17we don't know about, Devano?
56:18>> No, you go ahead.
56:19The domestic violence
56:21The domestic violence is not the the the
56:25end
56:26of black people. The transatlantic slave
56:29trade was from the Caribbean all the way
56:31up.
56:32Whether it was on an island of Cuba,
56:34Hispaniola, it is all of that.
56:36>> Most black folk went to Brazil.
56:38>> Yeah, Brazil. More blacks down there
56:40ever. So, when we get narrow and say,
56:42"Well, he's not a part of black
56:42culture." No, he is a part of the black
56:44culture.
56:45>> Right. Oh, I agree with that. I'm saying
56:46if he's black, then he's got the right
56:48to say it. But let me tell you this. If
56:49he weren't If he weren't If he were
56:51Latino who didn't have that black
56:53culture, no, bro. I don't care how many
56:55Look, did y'all ever see the um
56:57the series um Curb Your Enthusiasm?
57:00Remember when the black guy says to
57:02Larry David, "Are you my nigger?" What
57:05does Larry David say?
57:06First of all, he know not to say, "Yeah,
57:08I'm your nigger." He says,
57:10"Yeah, are you my Caucasian?" Because he
57:12understood that that was a limit. And
57:15I'm saying, why are we making this more
57:16complicated than it is? White folk, for
57:18the most part, in public space, do not
57:21say that word because the stigma
57:23associated with it has revealed black
57:25people's ability to take back a word
57:27that white folk said and flip it around.
57:29Now, I get the fact that you say, "Why
57:31do we spend all our time doing that? We
57:33should be doing other stuff." We can eat
57:34and chew gum and spit and do things at
57:37the same time. It's not either/or. We
57:38can talk about [ __ ] and we can talk
57:40about getting PhDs and doctorates and
57:43attorneys and entrepreneurs and working
57:45at the Heritage Foundation. Jesus. And
57:48being able to do all of that at the same
57:50time.
57:54Jesus, the lord of salvation.
57:57No, though.
58:04>> That's not their It's not their word.
58:06So, on that
58:08>> You know, I I another thing that
58:10happened in that clip, I don't like when
58:11people use the word [ __ ] and black as
58:14if they're synonymous with each other,
58:16right? Because the thing I used to hate
58:18the most, and y'all can explain this to
58:19me cuz y'all really, really came up in
58:21that era. In the '90s, when they would
58:22say Bill Clinton was the first black
58:24president. Why? Cuz he got some head and
58:26smoked some weed?
58:28>> That's the That's the And play
58:29saxophone. That's the reason they used
58:30to say it.
58:31>> Toni Morrison is the one who came up
58:32with it in the New Yorker magazine. She
58:34was talking about how he was being being
58:35demonized. How he was being
58:37misrepresented as a despite all of his
58:39achievements, he was still being
58:41reduced. That's That's what Toni
58:42Morrison
58:44>> Getting head AND SMOKING WEED.
58:47>> WAIT.
58:47>> THAT WAS SIMULTANEOUS CONVERGENCE of
58:49incidental facts.
58:51Okay?
58:52She was talking about this head, not
58:54that one, okay?
58:55I'm just saying.
58:57>> I think chronologically, didn't she
58:59write that piece before all the stuff
59:00happened with like with the Monica
59:02Lewinsky after
59:03>> I think she was coming along at the same
59:04I think it was coming along at the same
59:05time. No, we got to stop. You got to get
59:07that source.
59:07>> I need to cite this source.
59:08>> I just want to say this is why the
59:09history is so important. Yeah, there's
59:11an attack on black history right now.
59:12How is that true?
59:14>> And and this is why black history needs
59:16to be taught so that those kids they can
59:18make a choice. You know, you're talking
59:19about people they don't even have a
59:20choice. I don't think you can reclaim if
59:22you have if you don't know the claim,
59:24right? So, you have to actually know
59:26where that history came from, have
59:27conversations about where the the roots
59:30of the word, you know, who's using it,
59:32why they're using it, and and bring that
59:34into before people hear the hip-hop. You
59:37take 10 11 12 years old they can
59:39actually make a real decision. Like I
59:41always talk about sex before sex
59:43education. You think people aren't going
59:44to get pregnant if they don't talk about
59:46sex. You think they're not going to
59:47start in engaging with this word if we
59:50don't talk about it, but they need to
59:51understand the roots of this history and
59:53that's what we're
59:54>> Well, Dr. Smith to your point, Dr. Smith
59:56in his book talks about the difference
59:57between reappropriation
59:59and reclamation. Cuz reappropriation is
1:00:01for people who were not the intended
1:00:04original source of that. And difference,
1:00:06we're saying [ __ ] not [ __ ] We're
1:00:08acting as if we're not making a
1:00:10terminological and etymological
1:00:11derivation that signifies the black
1:00:14intent of a particular phrase. Not when
1:00:16when talking about Kendrick when he
1:00:18says, "I feel uncomfortable when Drake
1:00:20uses
1:00:21uh the term [ __ ] I feel uncomfortable
1:00:23when you do that." I get that.
1:00:24>> But the point not too much on Kendrick.
1:00:27>> Oh, wow.
1:00:29Cite the source. A biased person who is
1:00:31prejudiced against Drake. BUT WHAT I'M
1:00:33SAYING
1:00:35BUT BUT when Drake says light-skinned
1:00:36silver dark [ __ ] he's talking his
1:00:38daddy is from Memphis, his grandmamma
1:00:40babysat Aretha Franklin. He spent time
1:00:43with black people in Memphis and
1:00:45inculcated that culture. And I'm all I'm
1:00:47saying at the end of the day
1:00:48>> And he was on stage with Backstreet Boys
1:00:50at his 40th birthday.
1:00:52>> Wait a minute. AND WAIT HOLD ON. AND
1:00:53KENDRICK defended Iggy Azalea when black
1:00:57people were trying to say she was
1:00:59ripping off the culture. She's literally
1:01:00from a colonizing country, but Drake is
1:01:03a colonizer because he's a black man.
1:01:04All I'm saying is we make arbitrary
1:01:06distinctions and Charlamagne is right
1:01:07here. Sometimes black people mean by
1:01:10that word [ __ ] just what white people
1:01:11mean. But sometimes they don't. And so
1:01:14it's the complicated convergence of the
1:01:15simultaneity that has to be dealt with.
1:01:17>> No, when Doc said you said grandma
1:01:19somebody baby said Aretha Franklin
1:01:20somebody across the SITE YOUR SOURCE.
1:01:27>> MICHAEL ERIC DYSON IS
1:01:29TALKING to Drake's daddy. Okay,
1:01:32and it's also in Complex magazine.
1:01:34>> Well, I am so grateful to you all today.
1:01:37This has been an incredible
1:01:38conversation. Audience, I don't know
1:01:40where y'all stand now, but hopefully you
1:01:43have reached a conclusion about if
1:01:45you're going to use the N-word. How many
1:01:47of you all use the N-word? Raise your
1:01:48hands. I was just throwing up four
1:01:51five both y'all sometimes. And then has
1:01:54your mind changed? Will you continue to
1:01:56use the N-word? Absolutely not. No, it
1:01:58hasn't changed. Okay, please join me in
1:02:01thanking today's incredible panelists.
1:02:04Liz Pryor, Michael Eric Dyson, Leonard
1:02:07McKelvey, Derek Johnson, Jordan Peele,
1:02:09and Delano Squires. We're so grateful
1:02:11for y'all. So today we just discuss
1:02:13three claims. One, the N-word is
1:02:14associated with the most painful aspects
1:02:17of black history. Yes, that is true. The
1:02:20N-word is not only a relic of black
1:02:21trauma, but it is still terrorizing some
1:02:24people today. Number two, the N-word is
1:02:26derived from the Amharic word "negus"
1:02:28which means king. No, this is not true.
1:02:31We love you Kendrick and appreciate your
1:02:33desire to redefine and reclaim, but but
1:02:36historically the N-word was never
1:02:38intended to describe black people as
1:02:40royalty. That is especially for you,
1:02:41Doc. Number three, it is socially
1:02:43acceptable for white people and
1:02:45individuals of other racial backgrounds
1:02:46to say the N-word. Don't even let Chris
1:02:48Rock tell you this. No, at least not
1:02:50according to Pew Research and more than
1:02:5270% of Americans agreed that white
1:02:54people should never say it. For most of
1:02:57us, it is a slur no matter the intent.
1:02:59We are not a monolith, though. Our
1:03:01experiences with this word differ, and
1:03:03certainly whether we use [ __ ] or the
1:03:05N-word, I will tell y'all I'm wrestling
1:03:07with my own hypocrisy on this word. I
1:03:09can say that one day I pray that it
1:03:11finally rest in peace. Remember,
1:03:14knowledge is power, and on site your
1:03:15source we put that power back into the
1:03:17hands of the people. Please subscribe to
1:03:19Cite Your Source on YouTube, engage with
1:03:20us on social media, and share with
1:03:22somebody. Until next time, I'm your
1:03:24host, Angela Rye. This is Cite Your
1:03:26Source.

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