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The Milwaukee Bucks CLA Player Development Blueprint with Johnny Carpenter — Transcript

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0:00Coach Carpenter, welcome to the
0:01basketball podcast.
0:03>> Thank you for having me. It's an honor.
0:05Huge fan of this podcast and listen to
0:06so many episodes and it's a dream come
0:08true to be on it.
0:10>> That's awesome to hear and saw you in
0:11the LA clinic. Incredible stuff. Had to
0:14share a lot of what you are thinking
0:16about and doing. And let's focus first
0:18of all on this head of player
0:19development for the Milwaukee Bucks.
0:21Your first time head of player
0:22development. Talk to us about your
0:24thinking going into such a position.
0:26>> Yeah, first it's an honor. You worked
0:28your whole life to something like this
0:30and you think back on all the years of
0:31preparation, right? The coaches that
0:33have prepared you for the moment, all
0:35these workouts and practices and game
0:38design that you've done over the years
0:40to prepare you for this moment. So, I
0:42leaned on a lot of those experiences and
0:44now it's the dream come true time to
0:46implement all these ideas you tinkered
0:48with and tested and you vetted off your
0:51sounding board of trusted adviserss. So,
0:53heading into this, it's fun. It's a very
0:56cool challenge because there's so many
0:57moving parts. I think at the top of the
0:59list is first building a real
1:01relationship with the players. I think
1:03that's something that has to be organic.
1:05It's something that does take time, but
1:07it does take the oldfashioned sweat
1:09equity, right? You got to be able to go
1:11meet the players somewhere. Why just
1:13jump in and be the boss of that first
1:14workout, right? Get to know them, get to
1:16know their trainers, get to know their
1:17friends, spend time with them, meals. I
1:19think that's one of the first things to
1:21think about. Then there's also your own
1:24deep dive on the player, right? Using
1:26the stats available to you, using film,
1:28seeing areas of growth. What's this
1:31player really strong at? What's a
1:32potential new frontier that could be
1:34fun? Exploring with that player. All
1:36right. What's the biggest rate limit or
1:39what's holding that player back the most
1:41analytically? I like to also have
1:43analytics just do a purely analytical
1:45dive and then send me their findings
1:47just to see if am I seeing something
1:49incorrectly? Is there another clue here
1:51that leads me to a different takeaway in
1:54the design of the workout? Getting those
1:57key that key data, that key information,
1:59I think is really important involving
2:01all the other stakeholders. What's the
2:04lead trainer think? What does the player
2:06themselves think that they want to work
2:08on? How can you give some ownership and
2:10accountability back to the player and
2:12not just be a taskmaster, right? Explain
2:15to them the short term, the long term.
2:17What does the GM of a team think? What
2:19does the front office, the scouts think?
2:21What does the ownership think? How do we
2:23get everyone on the same page? Because
2:25there's a lot of different thoughts and
2:26then figuring out what are the most
2:28important things that we want to build
2:29on, improve on, and explore with the
2:34player. So, I think building a
2:35relationship, doing your own deep dive,
2:38showing a player that you're invested in
2:40them, that you understand who they are
2:41as a player, I think it's important from
2:43the jump. Like when you go to meet a
2:45player, you also have that you've
2:46already done your deep dive. And then as
2:48you build the plan, incorporate all
2:51information. Leave no stone unturned in
2:53terms of information. See what's the
2:55most important things are. And there
2:57might be something statistically that is
2:59super important, but the ownership,
3:01front office, scouts, coaches, the
3:03player themselves may want something
3:05else as a priority. How do we do that?
3:07And then as more and more data becomes
3:10available, how do we also build in the
3:12body component, the physical, the sports
3:14performance component of it, we're not
3:17just crushing players day after day,
3:19super high day. We have to also build
3:21them in the summers to increase both
3:24their gas tank and their engine. I like
3:26using car analogies a lot. And how from
3:29there can we do daily, weekly, how does
3:32it even go by drill? Is it a super high
3:35intensity drill in terms of
3:36accelerations dels? Is can you do one of
3:40those on a day where it's supposed to be
3:41a lower day? How do you build that out
3:44to also preserve players because players
3:46are playing at speeds is the fastest,
3:48most explosive athletes, they're only
3:50getting faster and more explosive and
3:52they're training longer, right? Their
3:54practices are longer, their game seasons
3:56are longer. How do you also build in the
3:58importance time to rest, recover, and
4:02continue to build in a smart datadriven
4:04way? I think it's incorporating a lot of
4:07that sports performance data as well.
4:09>> You just outlined the complexity of that
4:11and this 360° feedback and then this
4:14fully integrated system. Definitely a
4:17lot of moving parts to be able to get to
4:20a player and actually run a workout.
4:22talk to us a little bit about the
4:24difference at your level between say an
4:26individual workout and a team practice
4:29and your role in those two different
4:31areas.
4:32>> Yeah, great question. Individual, it's
4:35hey, what are we focused on rate
4:37limiters and rate limiters can change
4:39over the course of a season, right? You
4:40could talk defensively. Are they giving
4:43up space? You already talking about the
4:45idea of principles of play. The most
4:47important thing is taking space, reading
4:49space offensively and defensively,
4:51right? Space is usually baseline. Space
4:53offensively is usually slot attacks.
4:56Defensively, why is this player
4:58continually giving out the slot? That's
4:59a space read for them. So, how do we
5:02improve these different rate limiters as
5:04the season goes on? One thing might get
5:06a little bit better. You may have a
5:07little bit of regression in another
5:09area. And you're just continually
5:10improving, having a growth mindset
5:12throughout. I'm a fan of kind of meeting
5:14the player where they're at. There's
5:15some days where it's kind of skill work.
5:18I hate to say bag work, but almost
5:19therapy. players, especially the older
5:22players in the NBA that aren't as
5:23exposed to the CLA workouts that are
5:26starting to really permeate through the
5:28skill development industry in the
5:30summers. Those players are used to a
5:32routine, right? I'm going to give that
5:33to them because emotionally they in
5:35psychology, they believe in that, right?
5:37Also too, I'm going to say, "Hey, we're
5:39going to incorporate coaches extra
5:41bodies to give you game representative
5:43learning and have three on threes, 2v2s,
5:45but you can still work on skills."
5:46People don't realize that you can still
5:48incorporate footwork, finishing
5:50techniques, pickups, stuff players love
5:52to work on in a CLA way, in a decision
5:55based way. And I think that's something
5:57that I've been trying to incorporate
5:59with the individual regards with
6:00players. And then when it comes to team
6:02practice, practice design is something
6:05that directors of player development
6:07have say in. Also, the head coach and
6:10all the defense coordinator, offense
6:11coordin.
6:14My goal is to hey, how do we come up
6:16with a development framework that
6:17incorporates retrieval for the players?
6:20How can we take a more of a block
6:23concept or drill like a teams love shell
6:26defense, right? How do we show shell but
6:28then create repetition without
6:29repetition? How do we change spots on
6:31the court? change where the ball starts
6:32from, change the angles, change
6:34advantage, disadvantage. But overall,
6:36it's hey, how do we have the overall
6:38practice for the day, practice for the
6:40week, the month, the year, designing
6:43those, but also understand, hey, there's
6:45a scouting component to it, right? How
6:47do we make a walk through less just
6:50scripted? Sure, there's teach the
6:52players to plays, but like all the
6:54studies show if you have say we're
6:56scouting the we're walking through three
6:58plays. If we say, "Hey, this is the play
7:00that they're going to run. We're going
7:01to walk through it. Great. Nice team on.
7:03Here's play two. Here's play three."
7:05They may feel good in that moment, but
7:07the carry to the game is actually worse
7:08than just having it a little bit
7:10randomized. Hey, we're going to throw
7:11three different actions at you. Let's
7:13talk through them. Great. Here's a
7:15breakdown. Let's walk through how we're
7:16going to cover it. I think it's
7:17important to have that level of reading
7:20of actions and still building
7:22confidence. Get guys to articulate
7:24problems that may arise in the game and
7:26not just be script. I remember in
7:28college we actually were scripting
7:29underneath out of bounds defense and oh
7:32this is the this team's top three EOBS
7:35and it's like in college there's more
7:36underneath right but turns out like they
7:39run you usually run a different play but
7:41even if they run that play they end up
7:43scoring like where's the we ended up
7:45just saying hey we're just going to
7:46throw a bunch of different ease at you
7:48and see how you guard it let's talk
7:50through it great and then we saw EOB
7:53defense increase from there it did felt
7:55messier in practice the character of the
7:56game is So, I think just giving input on
7:59where drills are, designing drills, and
8:02overall team concept. So, I try to keep
8:04it super simple. Hey, we just played a
8:06game. Here's my one overarching theme
8:08I'm seeing from the team offensively,
8:11defensively. How can we work on that in
8:14practice? And then design the drills
8:15from there and be collaborative with it.
8:18I think that's important for even
8:19coaches. How do we get coaches to be
8:21involved? We as coaches love to be the
8:23center of attention, but it's like, hey,
8:24our teammates are our co-workers. I want
8:27to give this guy a rep of teaching this
8:28drill because he's never done that drill
8:29before. Hey, I might be focused on
8:31offense, but I want to rep defensive
8:33drill just so like I'm making sure I
8:35understand the concepts and terminology.
8:37Well, so those are two different
8:38approaches to individual workout where
8:40you meet players where there are more
8:43specialized and then go from there to
8:46the team workouts in terms of
8:47overarching design common themes and if
8:51it's hey we're slow with our maintenance
8:53principles can we be in advantage mode
8:55create more advantage games what
8:58relocation are we missing can we
9:00emphasize that with a positive score if
9:03you're a heavy crash team what's your
9:05tagups How are you marking that? How are
9:08you grading that? Are you plus points
9:11for your tagups? And I think you can
9:13even incorporate individual stuff with
9:14players. Some of the fun ones is, hey, a
9:16player you want to shoot more catch and
9:18shoot threes. It could be a long-term
9:19goal for them. Hey, the only way you're
9:22allowed to score in this drill is it's
9:23catch and shoot shot, make or miss. It's
9:25a great way of giving players the
9:27affordances of the games. They discover
9:29it and they start building the
9:30confidence themselves from there. So,
9:32individual players could even have
9:34constraints within a segment. So I think
9:36that's a that's always a fun one to use.
9:38>> I so many questions now. So let's
9:40rapidfire a few just to connect some of
9:43the things you said because I think
9:44there was so much there to talk about
9:45and I want to come back to it. Okay. BA
9:47trainers. So they're personal trainer.
9:48Are more of them moving towards CLA
9:50based in your opinion?
9:52>> I think more of the younger ones are
9:54incorporating like decision making into
9:57reads. I think there's guys who are so
9:59well established and they've done a
10:00tremendous job and they're working with
10:02some of the top guys. You got the Ian
10:04Renshaw's like the CLA Bible, right?
10:07You've got guys like Noah Lar Ro and Joe
10:09Boland at Integrity Hoops bringing
10:11coaches in. Then those coaches are now
10:13spreading jokingly like it's the
10:15integrity virus. I'm a member of that,
10:17right? We spread and we start
10:19influencing other coaches.
10:20>> Undeniable now, isn't it?
10:22>> Undeniable now. It's once the truth is
10:23out there. At first stuff, some of the
10:26best things in life are you'll see
10:28they're very smart and they're unpopular
10:30at first. There's a lot of push back.
10:32Analytics was a great example back in
10:34the day.
10:34>> Yeah, analytics. Yeah. But over time, it
10:37makes too much sense and people start
10:38seeing the fruit that comes from it. So,
10:41I think there's a lot more trainers, a
10:42lot of younger trainers are starting to
10:44incorporate this stuff more. I think
10:46younger players are growing up with it
10:49now and you're starting to see a shift.
10:51But, I do think it's important. I was
10:52talking one of my friends Adam Nicholas
10:53with the Canadians and he's a CLA guru
10:57and he talks about calls it stick time
10:59stick work with the players where
11:00they're kind of they get their own I
11:02want say therapy for lack of a better
11:04term but it's their time where they're
11:05getting into their zone and he actually
11:07saw it carry over. So it's not like all
11:10block training is bad. I think if you
11:12use it in the right way and in the
11:13context of meeting a player where they
11:15are psychologically to gain that trust
11:17for them to feel comfortable and that's
11:19when they may be more open and less
11:22combative to a new way of thinking. It's
11:24a kind of little Jedi mind trick. I'm
11:26here with you and it's a marry of
11:28everything to a certain extent but it's
11:29leaning again more in this more in the
11:31representative practice domain because
11:33the literature and as you said the now
11:35experiential knowledge of so many is
11:37undeniable and that's particularly I was
11:39blown away by people like you and Will
11:41Jen different people in the NBA that are
11:43doing this stuff now because you've
11:45grown up with it so you actually are
11:47taking it to a whole another level but
11:50I'm telling you Johnny I'm I just
11:51presented at you and showed this whole
11:53approach and there were two really high
11:55level division one coaches that watched
11:56it and really just came up to me
11:58afterwards and said, "I really don't
12:00understand it, but I understand it
12:01better
12:02>> and want more now." Cuz until you see
12:05it, you kind of don't get it, do you?
12:07>> No. Exactly. I think there's initial
12:08push back where it's like, "What is this
12:11CLA bull crap?"
12:12>> Or I already do this.
12:13>> Yeah. Or I already do this, but you
12:15don't actually do it. It's like you're
12:17starting to see the success. And also
12:19too, it's like you see guys like Coach
12:21May just dominate with it. you see and
12:24also some of its algorithm immersion
12:26member back in the day he learned it
12:29>> and it's wild to see the success people
12:31are having and once success leaves clues
12:33and where does it come back to so I
12:35think this approach is super sound and
12:38can we and also for the coaches the
12:40practitioners can we convey it in a way
12:43in almost like a love language that's
12:45not hostile where it's not like I what
12:48you're doing doesn't make sense it
12:49doesn't get you any better it's like
12:50relax there's a human element here. So,
12:53I think coaches are also getting better
12:54at being less pedantic, bookish with it,
12:57which I think is super important.
12:59>> Absolutely. Super important. Rate
13:01limiters. Use the term. Can you just
13:03describe it and explain it a little bit
13:04for coaches?
13:05>> Yeah. What's kind of like the bottleneck
13:06for a player? What's the stat that's
13:08preventing the player from making it to
13:11on the court or becoming the best
13:13version of themselves? What's holding
13:14them back? Great limiter. What's the
13:16biggest area of opportunity for us?
13:18What's the biggest bottleneck for a
13:19player? How can we improve this area so
13:23that he's no longer limited, no longer
13:25restricted, and can actually break
13:28through? So, it could be like, is it
13:30finishing? Is it
13:31>> finishing around the rim? Is it space
13:33reads? Is it decision- making? Are they
13:35a ball stopper? What could be point of
13:38defense? There's so many different ways
13:40to measure, you know, and it's finding
13:42out what is holding that player back the
13:44most. And these can be individual task
13:46or environmental constraints that slow
13:48it, right? And you said bottleneck.
13:51That's the word that seems to come up
13:52the most. Retrieval practice. I think
13:55this is something coaches need to hear
13:56more of regardless of where you stand
13:58with CLA. This is what we're trying to
14:00stimulate things that transfer from
14:01practice to performance. Talk to us
14:03about retrieval practice.
14:05>> Yeah, just the idea of interle spacing,
14:08retrieval, right? They're all terms from
14:10basically modern education, right? Even
14:13how we grew up was very much like a in
14:15school, I'm not even talking sport, was
14:17very much like block learning. And what
14:20you're starting to see in some of the
14:22schools that are dominating testing have
14:24basically had this approach in the
14:26classroom where it's less about just
14:27regurgitation of facts and it's and
14:29tests and it's more frequent quizzes.
14:32It's more creating opportunities for
14:34players to remember. Hey, praying that
14:37it's like that fine balance of taught
14:39them something. Hey, are they about to
14:40forget it? That's actually where the
14:42learning them doing the work to
14:43retrieve. So now how do we take those
14:45concepts onto court? It's the same
14:47thing. It's all behavioral psychology.
14:49And if you start structuring your
14:52individual workouts, your daily
14:53practices, your weekly practices, your
14:56monthly practices, your yearly
14:57practices, the whole program with these
15:00kind of concepts in mind where I'm like,
15:01all right, how can like for example
15:04players remember the first thing that
15:07they're taught and the last thing
15:08they're taught the most? Right? If
15:10you're building out a work daily workout
15:11like all right, I want to remember those
15:13two two buckets. How do I create an
15:15opportunity in the middle of practice to
15:16recall for the players to recall this?
15:18How can for the last thing I'm teaching
15:20is there a way I can embed that earlier
15:23in the practice where giant mind trick
15:25they may not even be realizing they're
15:27working on something that now they're
15:28hitting later. Can you next day where's
15:31the retrieval there? Or is it two days
15:33from there? Are you spacing it out to
15:35create a opportunity for the players to
15:37engage their mind to recall a certain
15:40concept, tactic, physical behavior,
15:42read? That's these are ways to kind of
15:45continue to level up. And I I don't want
15:47to say it's part of the CLA movement. I
15:49think CLA coaches use these modern
15:51education techniques, but some of the
15:53best books on coaching if you really
15:54want to level up is Doug Leov, man. He's
15:57awesome. His books about coaching, but
15:58also just his books about the classroom
16:00are super user friendly. And I think it
16:03will accelerate not only your growth as
16:05a coach, but they're actually going to
16:06accelerate your players retention and
16:08skill acquisition just because of
16:10designing practices better. And if
16:13you're a coach who's a parent listening
16:15to this right now, you can apply the
16:17same principles to your young kids and
16:19you will be blown away at what they can
16:22do. I'm not even talking about
16:23basketball. Whether you're trying to
16:24teach them to learn a language, play an
16:26instrument, get away from block
16:27learning. Find a way to make it
16:29interactive opportunities for them to
16:31forget and retrieve and practice.
16:33Engaging their brain is important thing.
16:36>> Love it. And I want to segue into your
16:38inbound defense concept, but inbound
16:40offense as well. But inbound offense,
16:42for example, there's nothing more boring
16:43than doing five onbound offense. So mix
16:46it in. And that's a retrieval practice
16:48thing. It's like literally at different
16:50points in practice. just call out, okay,
16:52we're in baseline five and they got to
16:54go run it and that type of thing and
16:55then get back into the flow of practice
16:57and that's what you're talking about,
16:58but can you go a little bit deeper with
17:00your inbound? I think a lot of coaches
17:02probably caught on to that because
17:03really what you're saying is to not work
17:05on the specific play, but to work on the
17:07concepts and make it more conceptual,
17:09aren't you?
17:09>> Yeah. Make it more conceptual and let
17:11the if you give someone the answers to
17:12the test, it's just regurgitation. And
17:14yes, there's a part of performance where
17:16it's like scripted actors. Yes, they
17:18have to master their part, but in a game
17:20like if we're getting one exposure, and
17:22that's a lot of teams do, right? One
17:24exposure the night before in in terms of
17:28their OBS or maybe the morning of is
17:29like their only exposure to a team's OB
17:31package, more sideouts in the NBA, more
17:34underneath in college. Those are their
17:36only exposure to it. Are they really
17:37going to remember all of that with all
17:39the others? As coaches, we got to
17:40remember like how much are we filling
17:42these players heads with?
17:44It's like we want them to do this. We as
17:46coaches can't even do like all of that,
17:48right? It's like an unrealistic
17:49expectation. Like how can you teach your
17:51players? One, quick thinking, quick
17:52processing. Now they're making the
17:54decision. It's not scripted. All right.
17:56Now they're engaging in their mind.
17:58They're talking to each other. Hey,
17:59let's clean up this mistake. Instead of
18:01the coach cleaning up the mistake that
18:02happened on this random OB say when I
18:05was at UVA, go A Wahoos. Shout out to
18:08Coach Bennett and coach ODM now. But if
18:10we're playing Louisville, for example,
18:12Louisville, it's maybe you're combining
18:14actions and you just run it as plays or
18:17you just run three plays but randomly no
18:19prep. Now the players are thinking
18:21through and they they're on edge. Their
18:24brains are engaged as opposed to script
18:25where it's like first they're going to
18:27go this way. They're going to wrap here.
18:28Then this guy's going to peel here and
18:30this. Everyone got it? All right, let's
18:31do it. Oh, good. It's like it's fake
18:33coaching. It's like CIA cover your you
18:35know what. As coaches, we might feel
18:37good about it, but what have we done? We
18:38haven't done anything. We just did
18:40something where we can we feel good
18:41about ourselves. If a player gets burned
18:42in the game, we can yell at the player,
18:44but it's like we did actually, if
18:45anything, we should be yelling at
18:46ourselves because we did prepare the
18:48player in the best way possible. Let's
18:50let them sell for and make the mistakes.
18:52All right, now address it. You they
18:54might make a mistake on the first random
18:56inbounds. And then you might tell the
18:57scout team to run the second random
18:59inbounds instead. And now they're like
19:01sorting through and now it's like the
19:03concepts and they're picking up. That's
19:05how they learn. That's how people learn.
19:07Going through it in a live pace. Making
19:10mistakes is okay, especially in
19:12practice. It's a quiz. When I was a
19:13student, I'd much rather had quizzes
19:14because I knew that they didn't hurt as
19:16much, right? The research shows frequent
19:19quizzing, low stakes quizzing leads to
19:22better carryover in education and in
19:25arts, in sports, then here's a one test
19:29where script regurgitate test. They're
19:32going to fail the test. Is it the
19:33student's fault or is it the the
19:35teacher, the coach's fault? And I think
19:37coaches have to start thinking in that
19:38lens where man, if you don't prepare
19:40your players in the most optimal way,
19:43it's not the players who are failing the
19:45test. It's you're failing as a
19:46practitioner and preparing them for the
19:49test.
19:49>> Couldn't agree more. And our inbound
19:51defense when I was a college coach
19:53improved when we quit trying to get the
19:55other team play calls and fill our
19:57players with those things. And all we
19:59decided is listen, we're going to spend
20:00the whole year on how we're going to
20:01defend if they attack the weak side, how
20:03they're going to defend if they attack
20:04the ball side. And they can do that
20:06hundreds of different ways, but
20:07essentially you just got to figure that
20:09part out conceptually. And we did that
20:11randomized throughout practice. Yeah,
20:13>> totally. I think I think it's wonderful.
20:14And I think you talk about OB offense,
20:17another fun thing to do, engaging the
20:19players. It's like kind of a Kansas City
20:20Chiefs thing. Let the players come up
20:22with a play before every for every game.
20:24I think that's a way of engaging their
20:26minds in those offensive OB
20:28walkthroughs. Hey, you guys can come up
20:30with a play. It has to be a good play.
20:31It can't be like I've seen some of the
20:33joking plays on YouTube and Twitter and
20:35stuff like guys barking like a dog or
20:37whatever and for distraction, but like a
20:39real play. Hey, this is what they do.
20:41This is what this team does. I want you
20:42guys to come up with a play as the team.
20:44Let's see if it's a good play. And you
20:45give them some ownership over that.
20:47Anything that engages the players is
20:49good. Andy Reid with the Chiefs
20:51famously, that's such a famous segment
20:53on Hard Knocks, but him sharing that
20:55that the players get a time to create
20:56their own plays and the value of that is
20:59just incredible, isn't it?
21:00>> Yeah, I think it's wonderful. I think
21:01with softwares like Lucio, I don't know
21:02how many coaches are familiar with
21:04Lucio. I'm give them a plug. I think
21:05they're a phenomenal product. I think
21:07coaches should use them. and they're
21:08very affordable at all levels, but a lot
21:12of time is spent with players on screens
21:15and having them to be able to design
21:16stuff on in practice on screens and
21:19coach through there. Hey, you're going
21:20here. It's a great way to engage the
21:22players. Talked about principles of
21:24play. You talked about space as one of
21:26the principles of play. Let's go deeper.
21:28First of all, just frame it for coaches.
21:30What are principles of play? And then
21:31maybe give us some more examples.
21:33>> First is create space and take space.
21:36What does that mean? So, off the catch
21:38or off the dribble, driving baseline,
21:41driving the slots in four out and in
21:43five out, driving baseline in four out
21:45and in five out. Attack space.
21:48Offensively, want to create space and
21:50attack space. Defensively, we want to
21:52take space and make it look like there
21:54isn't space to attack, right? Using
21:57passing, moving the ball quickly to find
22:00space. Cutting to the rim to create
22:02space. You're cutting, setting up,
22:05you're driving. A cut creates a fill,
22:08which is a close out. Attack the close
22:11out with force. Look to drive swing
22:12passes. So, I think there's principles
22:15of place to at the start of an action,
22:17right, to create an advantage and then
22:18to maintain. In your relocations, you
22:21want to move in the direction of the
22:22drive unless you're in the single side
22:24corner. On any drive, you want the
22:26corners in the top occupied. Ideally,
22:28it's through movement with an opposing
22:30pattern cut. So on those baseline
22:32drives, opposite wing is cutting. On
22:34middle drives, what's the opposing
22:36pattern? And four out spacing, dunker,
22:39relocate, and you're going to cut behind
22:41the defense. A lot of teams are calling
22:43it the drop and slide, Clyde action, cut
22:46and burn. We call it spacing away and
22:49weak corner cutting. In four out
22:51spacing, you've got that dunker
22:52relocating all the way through as well.
22:54In four out and five out in a baseline
22:56drive, if the dunker is occupied, you
22:59can give him a read. He can take the 45
23:01by curling up to the charge circle or he
23:04could back out to the corner. You which
23:07now someone else has to take the 45 cut
23:09and you're getting an opposing pattern
23:11cut. Right? Opposing pattern is hard cuz
23:13vision is looking at the ball and now
23:15you're cutting opposite of the vision
23:19and opposite of what the defense is used
23:21to guarding. So create space
23:22offensively, attack space. You got your
23:25opposing pattern cuts. you're moving in
23:27the direction of the drive unless you're
23:29in the single side corner. Now, when we
23:31still talk about maintaining the
23:33advantage, we got our relocations. Now,
23:35your airtime decisions on a kick out,
23:37shoot or swing. On a swing pass, you got
23:39all three options: shoot, swing, or
23:42drive. In the NBA, back-to-back drives
23:45was 0.84
23:47points per possession last year. Kickout
23:49shot, kick swing shot was 1.17. The
23:52interesting thing was everything after
23:54that any action whether it was pick and
23:56roll drive DHO you know off ball screen
24:00after that kick swing was all under a
24:03point possession all around 0.9 or
24:05under. It's because teams most teams
24:08haven't yet gotten to the relocation
24:11principles. You're starting to see a
24:12trend. More teams are moving in the
24:14direction of the drive to maintain both
24:16their width and their depth. Width
24:19meaning the corner is occupied. Depth
24:21having someone occupying the top.
24:23Cutting denials can both be whether it's
24:26in maintaining or in creating the
24:29advantage. Embrace denials. Someone's
24:31denying back cut. It's the same thing.
24:33If you cut, you may have a basket. Next
24:36person's filling. Cutting sets up our
24:38what? Sets up our driving. Now, if it
24:40turns into a kick out opportunity,
24:42right? If someone drives, right, they
24:44have a fill behind. If that fill
24:46behind's denied, what should the fill
24:47behind do? they cut, right? So,
24:49embracing denials and on any off ball
24:52screen and in any ball screen, I think
24:54one let's say one person to the rim, one
24:57person to the three. That maximizes your
24:59spacing and it's coverage, right? In an
25:01aggressive coverage, we're probably
25:03going to hit the roller, roller, get
25:05downhill, guard stay away. In a more
25:07conservative coverage, pop the roller,
25:10pop the screener, guard, get downhill,
25:12and attack. And you're in your you're in
25:14your principles of play. And if you have
25:16someone near the pop guy, opposing
25:20pattern pop cut, right? So you can kind
25:23of see how opposing patterns is
25:25important. Maximizing space, maximizing
25:28shape. And one principle that I still
25:31love is using the mid post as the
25:33playmaker spot. It's a term Noah Lar Ro
25:36and Rob Santaola kind of coined years
25:38ago. But use it as a face up
25:40opportunity. Use it as a paint touch
25:42mechanism, right? Throw it in. You can
25:45get a cut, speed cut either way. You
25:47could get a high pin, high split action,
25:50get a couple cuts off of that face up,
25:53and you're in your driving, your
25:54relocation. It's from there. So, that's
25:56when I think of the principles of play.
25:58Those are some of the other principles
25:59of play that come to mind.
26:01>> For lack of a better term, it's just the
26:02game within the game, right? It's like
26:04and I'm a Noah Lar Ro disciple. I think
26:06he's unbelievably brilliant. And Joe
26:09Boland as well. And they were trained
26:12players, right? And coach players. I
26:14want to use the word coach more than
26:15just train, but coach players and
26:18they're coaching players in the
26:19offseason for development. All these
26:21players play on different teams and they
26:23run different sets. And he's if I boil
26:24the game in its most simple form
26:26offensively, what is it offensively?
26:28It's taking advantage of space. On
26:30defensively, it's preventing space,
26:33right? It's understanding that airtime
26:35decisions on the catch, right? What are
26:36you thinking on a catch? On a kick out
26:38should be shot or swing. On a swing
26:40pass, what are your three options,
26:42right? You got all three. Shoot it,
26:44drive it, move it. When you're in
26:45advantage maintenance mode or
26:48maintaining the advantage mode, when
26:50you're stuck in neutral, how quick can
26:51we create the next advantage? Is it with
26:54a cut? Is it with the drive? Is it with
26:57the off ball screen? Is it with the ball
26:58screen? And overall, the number one
27:00principle is like reading space. How
27:03well can you read space off the catch
27:05and off the dribble? All right. From
27:07there, how well are you moving to
27:09maintain space, right? You got your on
27:11ball principles and your reads. How are
27:15coaches building their offenses to have
27:18and maximize time and space? So what a
27:23lot of teams are starting to do now
27:24driving opposing pattern cut corners and
27:27top the width and the depth of the court
27:29are maximized through movement. Right?
27:32So on a baseline drive that usually
27:33means opposite 45 cut. Some people call
27:36it a kill cut. We got pulled behind a
27:38strong side corner, opposite corner
27:39filled. And we got the top reading where
27:41the the kick outs going on a middle
27:43drive. You've got the cut behind the
27:45defense. A lot of people call it the
27:47Clyde, right? Corner slide. That's in
27:50its most simple form. It's a weak corner
27:51cut. Cut behind the defense. And you got
27:53your space away options. As a driver,
27:56your finishing or finding. And from
27:58there, it goes into your maintenance
28:00principles. Airtime decisions, the
28:02shooter swing decisions on your kick
28:03out, on a swing pass. You have all
28:06three. Are you reading space at the end
28:07of the day? is a shot, is a drive, is a
28:10one more. And getting into concepts from
28:14the principles of play as coaches design
28:15offenses. I think sometimes they
28:17misalign offensive triggers as concepts.
28:21Triggers meaning like an action itself,
28:23which I think is really neat. Teams are
28:25teaching their players to come up with,
28:26hey, this type of flare screen, let's is
28:29some call like a flare or chest screen,
28:32right? They call pin a week, right? Hey,
28:34we need two pins and a chest or we call
28:37ghost screens. Sometimes call them blur
28:39screens, right? You got your ghost, your
28:41blurs. We need two ghost screens and two
28:44chest screens. Figure it out. And then
28:46we we need a so and so scoring. We need
28:48Chris scoring on a 45 cut layup. So now
28:51you get your team playing like
28:52basketball conceptually, but those are
28:54triggers. As a coach,
28:56>> what are your concepts? Right. So to me,
29:00where offense is going when you're
29:01talking about principles of play,
29:02reading space, you got your slot drives,
29:04you got your baseline drives, the corner
29:06to me is where is the hub. Now, I
29:09actually think five out spacing is a
29:11little bit of a myth and is a little bit
29:13of a farce in some ways. Hear me out on
29:15this. If you watch the playoffs and
29:16stuff, when teams just stand in that
29:18five out space, it's the easiest thing
29:20to just sit and guard, right? There's
29:22nowhere. pick and roll off ball screen
29:25is usually one person in the room, one
29:27person to three in its max in its ideal
29:29form. And you'll start seeing the better
29:30teams are doing that, right? You're
29:32trying to basically get to four out
29:34space. So, it's how quick can you create
29:36four out spacing, right? From there, the
29:39person whoever puts pressure on the rim
29:40is going to end up in that corner for a
29:42corner three. So, if anything, they
29:43should be incentivized to whether it's
29:45cut, roll, screen, and get on the rim.
29:48You're going to get a corner three. How
29:49wonderful. But to me, playing from the
29:52corners, swing the ball to the corner.
29:54Are you in a baseline drive right away?
29:57Are you in a middle drive right away?
29:59Stampedeing that catch. If you don't
30:01have anything, how quick can you play
30:03uphill? Is it a dribble at cut fill?
30:06That's playing uphill. Those dribbles to
30:09playing uphill are much higher PPC than
30:13a dribble at towards the sideline. It's
30:15almost fool those dribble at the
30:16sidelines. They look good one time, but
30:18it's more of those middle dribble ads
30:19playing uphill from the corner into a
30:21low side screen. You'll see Indiana do
30:23it all the time. They're one of the best
30:24at playing to that next action, right?
30:26And then they get it to the corner. He
30:27doesn't have a drive. He's chase
30:29screening uphill and rolling. Those low
30:31side screens are harder to switch,
30:34right? It's a harder switching angle as
30:35more teams go to red or switching. So
30:38now you're playing from the corner.
30:40That's a itself like the whole gym
30:42pulling behind as the ball handler gets
30:43downhill. If he pops, next guy cut. If
30:46he pops, if the next guy's a big, is it
30:48a is it into a flare? Now you're getting
30:51a pop flare or ghost flare. But playing
30:53from the corner, anything uphill, and
30:55you saw Yukon carve teams up with it,
30:57more out of a set, but the concept of it
31:00and coach Schzes is doing unbelievable
31:01job with it. Uphill, playing uphill is a
31:04higher points per chance than in points
31:06per possession than playing downhill or
31:09playing east west. So, as teams look to
31:12exploit the corner, hit the corner,
31:15catch and shoot three. Great. No, not
31:17many people talk about just swinging the
31:18ball to the corner. The guy's open.
31:19Catch and shoot three. All right. Swing
31:21it to him. Drive. Now you're in your
31:23relocation principles. Great. Don't have
31:25anything. Now you're playing uphill. Is
31:27it cut? Is it drive screen? Getting your
31:30players. The most important thing a
31:31coach can do offensively is is getting
31:34your teams play after the play. Just
31:37first I think that should just be how
31:38teams are playing, but every coach wants
31:40to have their initial triggers. Sure,
31:42why not? How good can how fast of
31:45decision makers can you be? And I've
31:47been fortunate enough to been exposed to
31:49like coach Lar Ro and what we did in
31:51Memphis 2425 with coach Jenkins, the
31:53cutting, the relocations, cutting,
31:55setting up, the driving. And then I got
31:57to see Indiana do some unbelievable
31:59stuff where a lot of theirs is more
32:01about speed over structure, not just in
32:03transition, but also in the half court.
32:05The game's getting faster and faster to
32:07some degree. Like Boston, New York, some
32:09of the teams that have higher talent
32:11have been playing the possession game,
32:13slowing it down and having success,
32:14increasing three-point rates. There's a
32:16lot of different levers you can pull.
32:18But I think playing from the corners,
32:19playing fast, playing unpredictable,
32:21getting your players and teaching your
32:23players how to do this is the way the
32:26games is the way the game's going.
32:28Playing uphill more so than downhill.
32:30And why does that stuff make sense?
32:31Right? When you're playing uphill, the
32:34defense isn't used to looking behind,
32:37right? You're taking advantage of
32:38different vision. That's why there
32:41uphill has been so much more so much
32:43higher, so much more lethal on a point
32:45per possession basis and points per
32:47chance basis than playing downhill where
32:49teams are used to keep seeing everything
32:50in front or playing east to west. So, I
32:52think attacking from the corners is huge
32:55just as a as a great thing in the
32:56offense. skipping the ball from one side
32:59of the floor to the other is so 1.2 when
33:02you skip it to the opposite corner. So
33:04it's like hey let's reverse engineer
33:05offense if that's what leads to good
33:07offense we should look to skip the ball
33:08the opposite corner more a lot it's
33:10funny a lot of coaches are against back
33:12or encourage backto-back drives
33:14backto-back drives when their space yeah
33:18backto-back drives across the whole NBA
33:20is 0.8 last season is that good or bad
33:24is 0.84 for a good or bad offense.
33:26>> Not good.
33:27>> Worse than not good. It's atrocious.
33:28It's horrible.
33:29>> Yeah.
33:29>> So why would teams like when you
33:31compress a defense and you kick it out,
33:33you don't want to drive back cuz they're
33:34so compressed. Compress, expand, attack.
33:36And it's invasion sport principle.
33:38Soccer, I love soccer. Attacking from
33:40the sides. A lot of NBA too in terms of
33:43baseline drives, slot attacks. Talking
33:45with soccer coaches, the half space is
33:47basically the slots. If in soccer,
33:49there's the half space. So there's a
33:51middle. half space is where all of the
33:53action tends to start to create score a
33:56goal. NBA is very similar attacking from
33:59the sides, attacking laterally. And then
34:01I think even with the principles of
34:03play, I think getting into mirroring
34:05your offensive and defensive principles.
34:07So if you're a team that is looking to
34:09attack space and attack, baseline drives
34:12are the most drive in the NBA in terms
34:15of value, high most of highest
34:17efficiency. Baseline drives, slot
34:19drives. Defensively, we want to stop
34:21those, right? How are we mirroring that?
34:24And I think it's really important to
34:26think about, hey, if you're a quick
34:28inbound team, because all coaches think
34:30offensively, if you're a quick inbound
34:31team, you're emphasizing that
34:32defensively, shouldn't you also want to
34:35if you guys score quickly prevent
34:37another team from getting a quick
34:38outlet, right? How are you mirroring? So
34:41the just the importance of maintaining
34:44creating space reading space then you
34:46get your maintenance principles your
34:48relocations right fill behinds opposing
34:51pattern cut corners are always filled
34:53through movement and the decision-
34:56making that comes from those airtime
34:57decisions it should even be faster than
34:580.5 basketball you know what I mean a
35:00lot of people say hey let's play 0.5
35:02what does that mean it means on a swing
35:04pass you have all three options on a
35:05kickout you have two options right and I
35:08think when you start playing off of
35:09those principles of play the game within
35:11the game, you're going to maximize your
35:14spacing and you're going to optimize
35:17your possessions. And if you give a
35:19player on a drive, when we talk about
35:21the principles of play on a drive and
35:23them knowing where every pass out's
35:25going to be, one, that's going to help
35:27their finishing because you're going to
35:28be attuned to where the defense is going
35:30to be. Two, now if the help comes, they
35:32know all their pass outs. They could
35:34throw it blindly. We sometimes don't. We
35:37think about cutting off the ball as,
35:39hey, someone's reboot. Think about the
35:41guy who's driving. He's the quarterback.
35:43He's got to finish or he's got to find,
35:45right? If he doesn't know what his
35:47teammates are going to do, you're in
35:49trouble. Well, then coach say, "Why do
35:50you what happens when teams stay home?
35:52What happens when teams stay home?"
35:54Great. One v one finishing, master it,
35:56continue to get better at it. And then
35:57two, you can get into your reverse
35:58direction principles. So I think it's
36:00just a matter of reading space,
36:02understanding of when a drive is
36:04occurring, reading the game well, and
36:07maximizing your on ball and off ball
36:09decision making.
36:10>> Love it. Lots to digest there. Let's
36:13circle to
36:15let me go to this the stuff you talked
36:18about. Let's go play after the play.
36:20>> Yeah.
36:20>> How do you design for play after the
36:23play in a CLA approach? What players do
36:26when the first action creates nothing?
36:28How do you design for that? Because that
36:29seems to be some places where coaches
36:31get stuck is we run our initial action.
36:34How do we work on the part when our
36:36first action doesn't work because we're
36:38trying to make that first action work so
36:39much?
36:40>> Yeah, I think it's important to players
36:42have to understand what neutral is. And
36:45>> how do you define neutral?
36:46>> How do you define neutral is when the
36:47advantage is lost, right? So they know
36:50there no longer is an advantage. So, if
36:51you're playing in an advantage game,
36:53you've started someone with a basic
36:55advantage like shoulderto- chest
36:56advantage or a blind advantage, ball in
36:58the back, and the defense catches up and
37:00the play stopped. One way for them to
37:03recognize neutral is initially in an
37:04advantage game, you're blowing, you may
37:06blow the whistle and it's a turnover if
37:08the ball's in neutral, right? If the
37:10ball's stuck, if a player were to in
37:12advantage game were to immediately
37:14continue into another advantage creator,
37:18great. That's what you want. and
37:20incentivizing that, rewarding that if
37:22the ball doesn't get stuck or if I think
37:24importantly just them recognizing what
37:26neutral feels first. So that's maybe a
37:27deterrent and then guiding them through
37:30all the different modalities of film
37:32feedback live post-practice postworkout
37:36in in game right coaching feedback in
37:39practice in development coaching
37:41feedback guiding them to the other the
37:43different solutions and creating games.
37:46So you have your advantage games. Now
37:47you have your neutral games. You're
37:48starting. There is no advantage. There
37:50is no advantage. Players have to
37:52understand there's an advantage face
37:54where and what is the advantage? The
37:56advantage could be blind or basic. It
37:58could also just be space. Someone with
38:01it's funny even in numerical advantages.
38:03Yes, I understand that the numbers show
38:052v1's 3v2s. You want a favorable
38:07numerical. I'm not saying that you
38:09don't. But you'll see a lot players
38:11scoring in disadvantage to numerically
38:14because they have space and they more
38:16than anything they have pace as their
38:18advantage. And so that could you could
38:20start games at three quarter core and
38:22just go and you'll be amazed at what
38:24players do with the advantage of just
38:26time on their side, speed on their side,
38:28space on their side, but starting games
38:31in neutral. How are you going to create
38:33the advantage? Let's change our
38:35formation. And it doesn't have to be
38:36like you could do it smallsided 3v3. It
38:39could be a 3v3 could be three along the
38:42perimeter. Sure, but it could also be
38:43two around one. A four could be three on
38:46the perimeter or four out. 5v5, same
38:48thing. It could be five out spacing or
38:50four out spacing. Let's start the ball
38:51in different spots. When you're talking
38:53to your players, are you asking them
38:54questions? Are you telling them, "Hey,
38:56what are your advantage creators? What
38:58could you do in this scenario to start?
39:00If the ball were starting the ball in
39:01the corner, what could you do? Hey, we
39:03look to get a baseline drive. We don't
39:05have anything. What could you do here?
39:06Great play. Hey, we're going to start
39:08the ball in a different spot. What did
39:10you guys do last possession to create
39:11your advantage? Hey, we used a pick and
39:14roll. Great. Can't use a pick and roll
39:16to create your advantage. Figure and
39:18you're just working through that. You
39:20could do things where like we're getting
39:21into like reading times and different
39:23situations and stuff, but you could do
39:25something where it's like, hey, these
39:27are your different advantage creators.
39:28Like you could have a cutting, not to
39:29get block learning with it, but
39:30initially like getting them to
39:32understand the different times of cuts.
39:33Like I think sometimes we even get our
39:35relocations like those 45 cuts, those
39:38weak corner cuts, Clyde cuts,
39:40spaceaways, those are relocations. But
39:42what's your cutting bucket to create the
39:44advantage? You got your cutting after
39:46the advantage. But what are you going to
39:47create? You can passing cut. If you're
39:50on the wing with the ball, I'm in a
39:52trail spot right at the top of the key
39:54and we have another teammate on the
39:56opposite wing. I could just cut. He's
39:59filling. There's an advantage. There's a
40:00slot. We've just created a slot to
40:02attack. You could dribble at the corner,
40:04cut the corner, get into what the heat
40:06we're doing, and now you have a whole
40:08runway of space to attack either way,
40:10right? What are your cutting creators?
40:12Like your dribble ats, your passing cut,
40:14your regular cuts. How do you
40:16incorporate that in the half court? So I
40:18think starting in neutral and starting
40:20without an advantage or or no advantage
40:22game, whatever you want to call it,
40:23creation games, starting there and
40:26letting them play out of the different
40:28and as a coach, what triggers do you
40:30want or what initiators do you want?
40:32Igniters do you want to start your
40:36decision tree and having players sort
40:38through that? The old pitching study,
40:40I've been thinking about that a lot,
40:41right? A player is swinging and he's
40:42hitting 10 fast balls, 10 sliders, 10
40:44curve balls. He does great. The next
40:46player comes in and it's randomized of
40:48those three pitches. He does bad, but
40:50what where's the better carryover,
40:52right? So, you could have a whole
40:54cutting segment. Cool. Guys will figure
40:56that out. But how do you incorporate the
40:59different advantage creators? How do you
41:00make it for them to read? How is it more
41:03covered solution, right? You could the
41:05coaches on defense, and I think it's
41:07important to use coaches on defense or
41:09scout teams for representative learn
41:11design. Maybe it's an overplay to
41:13trigger the cut fill or to trigger. Hey,
41:16let's dribble at from the corner. He's
41:18overplay. Hey, he's off. Pitch follow
41:21ball screen. Or, hey, in this drill, we
41:23know this team switches ball screens one
41:25through five, but they don't switch off
41:27ball one through five. How about we stay
41:30away from that? What can you do? Hey,
41:31pass the corner pin away. One to rim one
41:34to three. If they're switching off ball,
41:36it's a flare screen slip. If they're not
41:38switching off ball, now covered
41:40solution. pin, rap, reject, but pop that
41:43guy now has a lane to attack. So, I
41:45think starting games in neutral, asking
41:47questions, mixing up the variety. That's
41:50how you'll gain gain awareness of what
41:53neutral is. But I think in advantage
41:54games, they have to feel what it's like
41:56when an advantage stops. And make the
41:58point, blow the whistle and be like,
41:59"Hey, what does that feel like to you?"
42:01You'll feel it when the ball is entirely
42:03stopped moving, the defense is lined up.
42:05What does that feel like? That's what
42:07neutral is. or that's what it feels like
42:09when we've lost our advantage.
42:11>> Talk to us because I think this is an
42:12important part of the CLA movement and
42:14what you're talking about here. Talk to
42:15us about the difference between
42:17intensity and learning because that
42:18seems to be a challenge for coaches.
42:21Again, traditionally like intensity
42:23supersedes everything in a practice, but
42:25we're talking about creating this
42:27learning environment which can still
42:29have intensity, but intensity not being
42:31the primary focus. The game we create
42:34creates intensity. Can you talk a little
42:35bit more about that? Yeah. And I think
42:38replacing intensity with more intent,
42:40you know that word where intent, it's
42:42like intensity of the mind and the focus
42:44of the mind and switching that you want
42:48a competitive environment. You want that
42:50in practice. Absolutely. And that'll
42:52come with game design. That'll come from
42:54the constraints you use. That'll come
42:55from the energy you bring and what you
42:57hold your players accountable to. But
42:59more than anything, it's at the end of
43:00the day, our job is for them to have
43:03carryover for what we think will be
43:04successful. is for them to learn. So we
43:07have to shift that learning environment
43:09and practice into a learning environment
43:11where we are environmental engineers.
43:14And as we're engineering the
43:16environment, we should have fun doing
43:17that. I know it sounds less glamorous as
43:20a coach saying, "Oh, you're an
43:21environmental engineer." Fun thing. You
43:23get to get in your creative brain,
43:26excited brain, and pull what levers can
43:28I pull to create the environment to
43:30guide behavior and influence behavior.
43:32And then in a game context, it make it
43:35competitive. I It's super important.
43:36It's more than just rahrrah bull crap.
43:39Get fired up. You can have that, but you
43:41also need to have the brains behind it,
43:44too. So intent, like what is the intent?
43:47Focusing on the intent offensively and
43:49defensively.
43:50>> I love the use of the word intent there.
43:52That's a great way of kind of phrasing
43:54it and seeing it. and talk to us a
43:56little bit about coaching the constraint
43:59cuz the difference for a lot of coaches
44:01is that instead of a high degree of
44:03technique or even tactical coaching to a
44:05certain extent the constraint you put
44:08into your game into your drill for lack
44:10of a better term is what's coaching the
44:13player more than the information that
44:15you're giving them.
44:16>> Yeah. And I think you don't want to
44:18overwhelm with so many constraints to
44:19the point where like you lose of what
44:21the intent is. You want to be very
44:23specific. And is there a way to have a
44:26positive constraint or positive? Yeah.
44:28Like for lack of a bonus point and and
44:30one was what we did with integrity hoops
44:32a ton and I learned that from no joke.
44:34It's like for finishing we put little
44:37stickers on the backboard if they were
44:38able to hit the sticker in it to get an
44:40and one. So you're guiding there
44:43creativity and touch around the rim,
44:45right? If like backtoback drives could
44:48be an automatic turnover, right? If
44:50that's what you're trying to emphasize.
44:51But
44:52>> but let's stay there because that's an
44:53example is that the constraint is the
44:55bad guy. I'm not the bad guy. The
44:58constraint's the bad guy. So if they
44:59double drive like that, the constraint
45:01tells you're going to lose possession of
45:03the ball. So it's the one
45:04>> or it could be like possession. You lose
45:06position of the ball and it's points for
45:07the other team so you can make a bet.
45:09But yeah, at the end of the day it's
45:10like implicit learning and that's what
45:13tends to carry over more so than
45:16explicit learning. So the fun part for
45:19coaches is how do you design a game that
45:22leads to behavior versus the old way of
45:24I'm going to tell you exactly what
45:26footwork finger this should flow off
45:29this the ball should roll off of this
45:30thumb at this angle at this precise and
45:32it's like I I think coaches need to be
45:35okay with engineering the environment
45:38learning and growing as a coach but yeah
45:40some constraints can be negative if
45:42there's a way for it to be positive I
45:44think you'll see more fruit and more
45:47carryover, but I don't think it's I also
45:49think it's important for coaches to I
45:51love that old Kobe Bryant video where
45:53he's talking about like failure does not
45:55exist, right? Can we get rid of the
45:57descriptions of bad and good? Can it
46:00just be like, hey, we're learning. This
46:02is a constraint. It's not this isn't an
46:04enemy for you. This is what's going to
46:06actually help you. You becoming aware of
46:08this is actually going to help you when
46:10you think about your growth as a player.
46:12This is a major rate limiter for you
46:14when this happens. speaking to a player
46:16honestly. When you do this behavior, and
46:18it could be positive. When you do this
46:19behavior, good things happen. Let's
46:21emphasize this positively. Every time
46:23you do this behavior, this happens. We
46:26can emphasize that negatively, but then
46:28emphasize the opposite of that
46:30positively, right? There's different
46:32ways you can do it, but there's just
46:34showing it more less about good and bad
46:37and like happy and sad. And it's like
46:40we're here to help you. We're here to
46:42help you grow. We're here to serve you.
46:43I my goal is that these players reach
46:47their full potential as in terms of as
46:50individuals and as team players which
46:53means winning comes from it and then
46:55what happens when teams win players get
46:57paid and they able to provide for their
46:59families. That's what I want. I think
47:01getting away even from like good guy,
47:03bad guy type of mentality. But yeah, the
47:06constraints are what's guiding it as
47:08opposed to you just calling it out and
47:11you're still you're just attuning them
47:13to the constraint. And then when it
47:15happens, you can even ask so many
47:16coaches will blow it dead. You did this,
47:18you're out. Ask the player, hey, why did
47:19I blow it dead? Hey, we just had a great
47:21possession. So and what could you have
47:23done? It could even be a trick question.
47:25Wait, coach, I did cut on the Yeah,
47:27you're right. I was just trying to get
47:28you to think. I'm using those my jerks.
47:31Hopefully that answer your question.
47:32>> No, I love that so much there to unpack.
47:34We want to apply our mixing our
47:38retrieval practice. Now, so let's go
47:40back to what you mentioned at the
47:41beginning, shell drill, cuz I know a lot
47:43of coaches are still thinking about what
47:45you're talking about in terms of
47:46redesigning shell drill. So, can you
47:48give us this is a conventional drill.
47:51Can you give us one or two ideas to
47:54redesign it using CLA and then what
47:57potential changes would happen in their
47:59behavior because of that?
48:00>> This is shout out to coach Bennett. He
48:02called it the change drill. We'd be in
48:04our shell spot. So it's four on four
48:06player versus player. They're in their
48:08shell and on his whistle. Offensive team
48:10has to drop the ball and then offense
48:13goes to defense. Defense goes to
48:15offense. Offense has to guard a spot
48:18different than where they were just
48:20standing. Now that creates what? A
48:22disadvantage. It's a little bit
48:24different than starting with a
48:25disadvantage because now the offense or
48:28defense go to offense and now
48:29immediately attack kind of creates
48:31chaos. Now you're into your rotations
48:33from there. You could do a five out. We
48:34used to do it more four out. You can
48:36even do a three out. Remember, it's more
48:38about the intent of the drill, right? If
48:40you're trying to get your ideal
48:43rotations, sure, you probably want it on
48:45fives. But if you want your guys to
48:47cover ground defensively, do it in
48:50threes, do it in fours. Same thing when
48:52we talk about mirroring offense and
48:53defense. When you get into your mapping
48:56of your offense on five on, sure, that
48:58makes the most conceptual sense, but if
49:00you want your guys to cover ground, four
49:02on three on guide your show your players
49:05what you want right in your grand most,
49:08it's actually funny. Coaches go between
49:10four out and five out shell. There's
49:11some coaches only want to do it five out
49:13because of the spacing and rotations and
49:15some only like four out because they
49:17cover more ground. So it's what are your
49:19rotations in show right? All right. Now
49:22what are your you go through it scripted
49:25and you feel really good that the
49:26players got it. Great. All right. Don't
49:28just stop the drill there. It's not oh
49:30hey they got the script wrong. Let's
49:31recorrect. Hey from this point it's
49:33live. And now this is where coaches have
49:36to get really good. I remember when I
49:37was first learning how to get away from
49:39blog practice. how my mind was not
49:42nearly as sharp as the coach reading and
49:45understanding what I needed to correct.
49:47I was so used to correcting the script.
49:49I wasn't used to correcting the improv
49:51or or what happened after the breakdown
49:53>> on the fly type of mentality.
49:55>> On the fly.
49:56>> Yeah.
49:56>> And I think as coaches that's something
49:58that coaches need to get better at. It's
50:01not I don't even know if there's ever an
50:03end to that. You have to just
50:04continually improve and elevate yourself
50:06there. But yeah, I'd turn it live at
50:08some point and, you know, stop scripting
50:10pass outs and be ready to coach the
50:12breakdowns. When a breakdown occurs, you
50:14have to call it out. I guarantee the
50:15first three or four times you're going
50:16to miss, you'll correct something, then
50:18you'll go back on film and be like,
50:19"Whoa, I didn't even see that part." So,
50:21I'd say turn it live at some point,
50:24start the ball in a different spot,
50:26start from a different situation. Start
50:28from a situation that you didn't prepare
50:30the players for. If you're only talking
50:31about standard, hey, we're hit five
50:34people out, we're in a shell, we're
50:35moving baseline drive, this person takes
50:37that because different teams have
50:39different coverages for the their MIGs,
50:41their all the rotations from there. But
50:44hey, now all of a sudden, start with a
50:45pick and roll and just see what the hell
50:47happens. See how the players go from
50:49there. Allow drives to occur at
50:51different times. Whisper to one of your
50:53scout team guys and tell them like,
50:54"Hey, you're going to give up a drive
50:56here." So the players don't know if you
50:59are limited with your scout teams if you
51:00have an offense defense tell the
51:02defender put a couple defenders to the
51:03side so the offense doesn't know who
51:05coach is talking to it's like you're
51:07going to give up the drive this at this
51:08point or vice versa like so that I'm
51:11think how the offense can get the reads
51:12from there but you could even say
51:14defensively tell one player whisper in
51:17their ear that they're going to be the
51:18breakdown be hidden about it and now the
51:21other guys are going to have to read
51:22what happens from there so that one
51:23player may know what's happening or
51:25might be the one the the trigger. But I
51:28just say try to randomize it. Try to
51:29make drives that occur. Put players in
51:31disadvantage. Start them in different
51:33spots. Don't always have your fiveman
51:36down low. Put them on the perimeter.
51:38Allow learning to occur. But
51:40disadvantage drills, I think, are very
51:41underrated. And if you think about it,
51:43if you have two teams, if you're a high
51:45school team or college team, you're
51:46working your offense and your defense,
51:47you can do it simultaneously. Advantage
51:49game is a disadvantage game. And how do
51:51you how does a defense stop the offense?
51:53How does the offense stop the defense?
51:54How does defense get them back to
51:55neutral? You can work your rotations
51:57from there, but continually move the
51:59ball. Start in different shapes, start
52:01in different spots, start at different
52:03angles, and yeah, turn your shell drill
52:07live at some point. Sure, guide them.
52:09Walk them through what you want. Will
52:10they even get it into that one rep or
52:12two reps? Probably not. And then turn it
52:14live. Ball in the black. Blind advantage
52:16shell drill. Who's where's the help
52:18coming from? Space reads. Close make the
52:20defense close their eyes. Start the
52:22ball. Move the offense. different
52:23shapes. Open. Go. Now they're playing.
52:26Now they actually have to read it.
52:28There's a disadvantage. You can even
52:29have a shell drill where the coach's
52:32defense is going to like basically close
52:33their eyes and hold their offensive
52:35player shirt, walk to a different spot,
52:37whatever. Open your eyes. Go. Now it's
52:41different. It's a live read. Now they
52:43got to scramble. That's probably
52:44probably the easiest one I'm thinking
52:45for coaches. But make it a live read and
52:49make it small. Make them cover ground.
52:51Make them understand the concept better.
52:52When a breakdown occurs, ask them the
52:54question. Have the feedback ready. Like
52:56technology is so available. Are you
52:58showing them and correcting live as
52:59opportd?
53:05Hey Joey, tell Johnny what happened. Hey
53:08Chris, tell Joe Schmo what happened.
53:10These are ways to involve in using a CLA
53:13approach to these drills. It doesn't
53:15have to be scripted.
53:16>> Love this. Obviously more than two
53:18coaches, which is why we have Johnny on.
53:20Awesome to get our self thinking and
53:22I've used the one where you said
53:23randomize a player that basically gives
53:25up an advantage to help players
53:27understand that the basketball decision
53:30supersedes the play.
53:31>> You know when you tend to run plays
53:33you're running the play but you're not
53:34trying to score and like we randomize
53:36player flipped their hips at a random
53:38point we should be attacking. Forget the
53:40play as an example. But just to
53:42summarize, coaches, change the shape of
53:44your shell was what Johnny said. And
53:46then obviously be able to do it out of
53:49different advantage starts and just
53:50great stuff
53:51>> and be creative. Like it could be eyes
53:53closed. It could be an actual like
53:55disadvantage drill like where the
53:57coaches or the scout team or your second
53:59unit is on offense. It could be blind.
54:01It could be basic. It could be eyes
54:03closed. just have fun with have fun with
54:05the different starts and then be ready
54:08and be get good at coaching on the fly.
54:11It's a different skill. A lot of people
54:13like coaches are great at coaching
54:15scripted breakdowns.
54:16>> Coaches know basketball immersion is all
54:18about coaching on the fly because one it
54:21gives you more reps of the game. So you
54:22get to coach more of the game in
54:24practice which helped you become a
54:25better game coach too which is a
54:27beautiful part of this whole process. I
54:29do want you to talk about Johnny, you've
54:31mentioned it a few times, implicit is
54:33the goal, but talk to us a little bit
54:35about when do you use explicit
54:37instruction, especially as it maybe
54:39relates to technique? Where does that
54:41fit into this whole piece?
54:42>> Yeah, I think there's a baseline that to
54:45show players like are introducing, sure,
54:48but there's so many times where coaches
54:50sometimes get in the way of players
54:51development by saying stuff that we've
54:54just regurgitated over the years, for
54:55years. is like, and we've all been in
54:57different camps, but like some guy's
54:58thumb the ball great. Do we want to
55:00correct that? The guy shooting 43, is
55:02that really preventing him from being a
55:04good shooter, but how many coaches work
55:06and they'll put like all the different
55:08resources like tools?
55:10>> And it's our own biases, right, about
55:11what we think is technique or what's
55:13perfect technique. So, it's like, sure,
55:15there's a baseline. You don't want
55:17someone like kicking a ball in the net.
55:19You have to explain to them like this is
55:21a technique of how to shoot a jump shot.
55:23But can we even in that I remember
55:26growing up as a kid is in the 90s we
55:29were told like on the right side of the
55:30hoop right hand layup left foot and we
55:34were yelled at if we ever went same
55:36foot. This was in the '9s because why
55:38are we why is that? Imagine these are
55:41why players now are so much better
55:42because we're like you can finish off
55:44either foot. Wow. Amazing. You can
55:46finish with either hand on either side
55:49all the different pivots and stuff. I do
55:51think there's guide behavior in in the
55:54explicit. I even think it's one way to
55:56do explicit well is teach it slow.
56:00Exaggerate the slow form feel footwork,
56:05right? So like you can still get into
56:07footwork whether you're teaching in the
56:08NBA, right? There's the zero step which
56:10is the gather and then you got your one
56:12step and your two step. There's so much
56:14freedom in there in using your fakes on
56:17your zero, right? When to pick up, when
56:20to masquerade your pickup, right?
56:22Holding your one, playing off your one.
56:24Does that turn to a pivot or does that
56:25turn into euro? Hold like holding your
56:28two at the end, the different pass out
56:30reads. Exaggerate that slow, right?
56:33Slowest, smoothest, fast. It's the same
56:36learning concept used in teaching kids
56:38how to play instruments, right? as they
56:41go through the process of learning,
56:43having them go through and playing a
56:44piece or playing a melody or playing a
56:47improv slowly is actually the way for
56:50their brain to learn it. So you
56:52oscillate between really slow and then
56:53really fast and then in between. I think
56:56that's a way for ex to improve explicit
56:59but initially sure you need to do it
57:01somewhat to create a baseline but from
57:05that point can you randomize can you
57:08make your skill like even shooting like
57:11hey this might be the form but our goal
57:13is a backend or switches. I think
57:15there's there are ways to use both well
57:18but can we lean into the implicit
57:19learning more? I love it. That that just
57:22nailed it. And I know that's really
57:24where a lot of coaches get stuck on
57:25technique. And traditional coaching that
57:27starts from technique literally is a
57:29limitation instead of an affordance for
57:31players, isn't it?
57:32>> Yeah. And then even defensively like we
57:34have we as coaches say this is this
57:36person's technique, but what if someone
57:38has hit immobility that prevents them
57:41from actually getting into a like a what
57:44stealing a base or that turn and run?
57:47For some players, it might be faster.
57:48For other players, it might be like
57:51quick sliding or if coaches are against
57:53the turn and run and are like, "Hey,
57:54slide from here to here. What if that
57:56how can we make it? Why is everything
57:58just one sizefits-all? That doesn't make
58:00sense." And even in drill design, is
58:01this drill best suited for this player?
58:05How do we get better at that? There's a
58:07lot of technologies coming out about
58:09reading players and grading players,
58:11decision- making, processing speeds, and
58:14can some guys even read information up
58:16close. All right. How do we address that
58:18into that bucket? You can get really ind
58:21depth and in the weeds with it, but that
58:23may be for another day.
58:24>> That might be for our second podcast
58:27together, Johnny.
58:28>> Yeah,
58:28>> Johnny, this is tremendous. I know you
58:30wanted to be a guest on the podcast and
58:32I'm so grateful that we got connected
58:33and now you're a guest on the podcast
58:35because that shared knowledge that
58:38you've just shared with our community is
58:40going to impact so many people. So,
58:42thank you so much for sharing the game
58:43with us and we're so excited to watch
58:45the Milwaukee Bucks and all the players
58:47that you get to touch go through their
58:48development process over this year and
58:50the next few seasons.
58:51>> Thank you so much for having me and for
58:53everyone listening. One, continue to to
58:56teach coaches, continue to share the
58:58game, and also keep tuning into this
59:00podcast and just take a look at it. I
59:02got to give special shout outs as
59:03always, no rose, Joe Bolan, two guys who
59:06influenced my coaching career and who've
59:08been on this podcast before. Take a look
59:10at their podcasts.

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