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The Mathematics of Marriage: Predicting Divorce (John Gottman) — Transcript

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0:00[Music]
0:00the following program is a uwtv classic
0:06[Music]
0:38from the University of Washington in
0:40Seattle upon
0:44reflection hello and welcome to upon
0:46reflection I'm Ross Reynolds imagine it
0:49is the night before your wedding a man
0:51comes to you in your fiance and says
0:53that if you answer his questions for 15
0:55minutes he can predict whether or not
0:57you will stay married would you take the
1:00quiz would you do the interview it's not
1:02a hypothetical question Dr John gotman
1:04psychology professor at the University
1:06of Washington has just such a test and
1:08he says he can predict the outcome of a
1:10relationship with 90% accuracy Dr Gman
1:13thanks very much for being with us my
1:14pleasure Ross I hope I didn't over
1:16overstate your predictive skills but
1:17they're very impressive in a half hour
1:19interview you can talk to a couple and
1:21from the questions that you ask them and
1:23the question and the answers that they
1:25give you have a very high percentage
1:26rate of predicting whether or not
1:28they'll be able to stay together what
1:29are the questions that you asked them in
1:31that interview well we've been able to
1:33do it now in three different
1:34longitudinal studies so I'm quite
1:36confident of this prediction over 90%
1:39accuracy in prediction and we asked them
1:41very simple questions we asked them how
1:42they met uh what their first impressions
1:45were of one another how they decided to
1:47get married what the wedding was like
1:49what the honeymoon was like the first
1:51couple of years of marriage their
1:52transitions important transitions like
1:54becoming parents and we ask them about
1:56their philosophy of marriage how they
1:58think about things what their parents
2:00marriages were like and how their
2:01marriage may be similar or different
2:03from their parents marriages we ask them
2:04to pick a good marriage and a terrible
2:06marriage they know and compare them and
2:09compare their own marriage to that and
2:11we ask them about the history of their
2:13experience with basic emotions like
2:15anger fear sadness love Pride jealousy
2:19shame and so on simple questions very
2:21simple questions but what are the
2:23answers give it an example of some of
2:24the answers that clue you into how their
2:26relationship will work yeah you know
2:28it's interesting because you don't have
2:29to be a rocket scientist to to code
2:31these answers I mean they're really
2:32pretty apparent so one of our Dimensions
2:35is just how much room people have in
2:37their cortex and their brain uh for the
2:39relationship and their partner
2:41psychological world and guys turned out
2:42to be very critical in this so you asked
2:44one guy a question like well how did the
2:46two of you meet and what were your first
2:47impressions of one another and this guy
2:49will say you know well I remember the
2:51night very well and he describes a dance
2:53and how his wife looked dressed in a
2:55yellow dress and how his heart was
2:57pounding and he couldn't go over to to
3:00ask her to dance and then the slow dance
3:02came on and it was just the right moment
3:04and she came over and asked him to dance
3:06you know and he asked another guy how
3:07did you meet and he says Anna how do we
3:10meet so and it turns out that these the
3:12answers to these questions the way more
3:15than a bad memory it's more than a bad
3:17memory it's really not I mean these
3:19people have a fine memory it's just that
3:20they're not really you
3:22know taking very much time to make it
3:25turns out they're not taking very much
3:26time to make maps of their partner's
3:28world what's that mean a m World some
3:30some guys have kind of figured out that
3:32it's important to know their wives to
3:34know you know who are the main players
3:36in their wives lives friends potential
3:39uh negative people or enemies or Rivals
3:42people they're worried about uh their
3:44their stresses their concerns and
3:46worries at work their hopes and
3:48aspiration for themselves for the family
3:50and so on their dreams and some guys are
3:52just kind of knowing this stuff and
3:53updating it every you know so often
3:55having a date and saying say how are you
3:57you know how you thinking about that
3:58living room um what's going on in your
4:01mind are you going to change your office
4:02or you you stressed because you have
4:04that big commute to the east side or
4:06something like that uh they're finding
4:08out about their partners and this basic
4:10you know really mapmaking thing that
4:12guys do and guys love to do some guys
4:14have figured out I mean we call these
4:16guys emotionally intelligent husbands
4:18and and the fact that you know this
4:20stuff about your wife really is the
4:22basis of romance because then you know
4:25these guys are doing a whole bunch of
4:26other things they're they're thinking
4:27about stuff that they really love and
4:29admire about their Partners they're not
4:31leaving the house without knowing one
4:33basic thing that's going to happen to
4:35their wives that day then when they come
4:36home at dinner time they'll say how'd
4:38that meeting go or you know what
4:39happened when you had lunch with uh
4:41Harriet you know how'd the lunch go
4:43you've written that men who can't accept
4:45influence from their wives divorce yes
4:49why is that what goes on well you know
4:50we found out that um in studying
4:53physically abusive men you know these
4:55violent marriages Neil Jacobson and I
4:56have done this research at the
4:58University of Washington together and
4:59after watching these tapes for a couple
5:01of years Neil and I sort of noticed this
5:04pattern that these really violent guys
5:06well just they reminded us of uh
5:09baseball players at batting practice at
5:11these automatic pitching machines like
5:12whapping out everything their wives said
5:14every even reasonable demand that wives
5:16made so you know we we call this pattern
5:18really refusing influence I mean and
5:21it's very simple you don't have to be a
5:22mental health worker to accept influence
5:24it's like you know your wife says do you
5:26have to work Thursday night because my
5:27mother's coming this weekend and some
5:30guys are saying well I was planning on
5:32it but I guess I could work Sunday night
5:33you know how would that be and some guys
5:35are saying no way I'm working Thursday
5:36night you know you deal with your mother
5:38she's your mother and it's just that
5:40pattern of not you know the give and
5:42take pattern the thing you know our
5:43grandmothers always said in a good
5:45marriage you got to have give and take
5:46this is the give and take it's accepting
5:48influence and being influential it's
5:50part of a process it's independent of
5:52religious orientation I mean you can
5:54believe you know that the man is the
5:56titular head of the household I have a
5:58friend who's a Mormon Bishop you know
6:00really believe he and his wife both
6:01believe that but it's really about
6:03respect this accept the influence
6:05pattern and it's absolutely critical for
6:07the survival of marriages and it's guys
6:10you know because women are accepting
6:11influence
6:12already you've not only been able to
6:15predict whether or not a marriage will
6:17stay together but what's equally
6:18remarkable to me is you're able to
6:20predict how long a marriage will stay
6:21together how long well we found this I
6:24mean this is sort of a basic thing that
6:25we discovered I think Bob levenson and I
6:27really did this and he's a professor at
6:29UC Berkeley and we've done the longest
6:32longitudinal study now is 14 years we
6:34followed couple maybe you could explain
6:35a longitudinal study yeah we we take a
6:37group of couples uh and we really sort
6:39of watch them and periodically check in
6:41with them usually every year and see how
6:44the marriage is going if they're still
6:45together if they're separated if they're
6:47thinking about divorce a lot uh just the
6:49status of the marriage and we follow
6:51them as long as we can you've been in
6:53touch with these couples for many years
6:54haven't you that's right so this has
6:56been our long this is the 15th year now
6:58we've been following the sample and we
6:59we're doing this really with 650 couples
7:02right now at different places in the
7:04life course some newlyweds one study of
7:06newlyweds all the way up to couples who
7:08are going through retirement who are in
7:10their mid-60s now we've been following
7:11them and we asked the question you know
7:14what kinds of things predict um
7:16successful transitions like becoming
7:18parents like going through retirement
7:20some people have a great time retiring
7:22for some people it's extremely stressful
7:24and the marriage makes a difference big
7:25difference so that's what a longitudinal
7:27study is and Bob and I have discovered
7:30that there are two major high risk
7:31points for couples half of all the
7:34divorces we know you know from other
7:36research occur in the first seven years
7:38of marriage so the first seven years of
7:39marriage is a very high risk period for
7:42marriages and then the second period
7:45that's really high risk is about 16 to
7:4720 years into the marriage usually when
7:50people have teenage kids and so the
7:52interesting thing is do the same things
7:54predict whether couples will divorce
7:56early or late no it's different now the
7:58teenage kids I can understand but why
8:00seven years into a marriage do we find a
8:02lot of divorces well it's not really the
8:04seventh year you know the sevene itch is
8:07supposed to be like suddenly in the
8:08seventh year people start getting the
8:10itch to leave the relationship it's not
8:11true it's really all the way through the
8:13first seven years people are at higher
8:15risk and the reason really is that this
8:18is where a lot of the major adjustments
8:21are taking place to being married and
8:23all couples have to make these
8:24adjustments it doesn't matter anything
8:26about their personality or or whe whe
8:29they're depressed or not depressed it's
8:31all marriages have to learn how to
8:33manage money how to think about kids how
8:35to set up a home how to be close to one
8:37another how to how to balance career and
8:39family you know and then if they become
8:41parents how to make the transition to uh
8:44to become parents it's a big big change
8:46in life purpose and meaning and identity
8:48so a lot of really big things are
8:50happening as soon as that honeymoon is
8:52over and they're home well then they
8:54this is a realization my God you know
8:56we're together and we've made this
8:57commitment now what you so a lot of
9:00stuff is happening in that first seven
9:01years well what predicts whether people
9:03divorc in that first sevene period is
9:05how Negative they are when they're
9:07dealing with conflict can they handle
9:09conflict in a way that is gentle that is
9:12loving that is affectionate that is kind
9:14can they accept influence can they bring
9:16up problems in a way that is somehow
9:18softened instead of really harsh and yet
9:20you've said that doesn't mean that
9:21couples don't have knockdown drag out
9:23battles that's right that can be a sign
9:25of a healthy relationship it can be as
9:27long as it's not contemptuous as long as
9:29it's people aren't criticizing one
9:31another uh as long as they're staying in
9:33there and they're you know uh not
9:35becoming defensive so the the the magic
9:39in resolving conflict is this it's
9:42really communicating to your partner
9:43somehow you know I love you I like you
9:46the way you are but please change so
9:48it's it's kind of an interesting
9:50dialectic it's like you communicate
9:52acceptance but you also communicate
9:54requests for Change and the couples who
9:56are doing this in a kind of gentle way
9:58and you know Kinder way is really the
10:00only way to describe it are really
10:02managing those seven years very well now
10:04there's another group of couples who are
10:06not very negative right but they're just
10:09not very positive I mean they're they're
10:11not showing a lot of interest in one
10:12another a lot they're not very
10:14affectionate you know they're not really
10:16praising and admiring one another so
10:18it's kind of like more of an emotionally
10:19dead marriage you know I mean this is
10:21the kind of marriage where if the wife
10:23comes into a party the husband's been at
10:25for a while you know and she walks in
10:27she would like to see her husband sort
10:28of brighten when he sees her this is the
10:30kind of marriage where there's no
10:31response really you know those people if
10:34it's not negative stay married much
10:36longer but then eventually that lack of
10:39positivity lack of emotional connection
10:41really takes its toll I'm really
10:42interested that you have a mathematics
10:44background have you've been able to
10:46integrate that into taking a a
10:48subjective concept like contempt and
10:50actually measure that yes I we you know
10:52in fact I'm glad you asked me that
10:54that's a great question Ross uh James
10:56Murray and I James Murray is a is a
10:59mathematics professor in the appi our
11:00Applied Mathematics Department he's a
11:02world famous uh mathematical modeler of
11:05biological systems and he's done
11:07research on why tigers have stripes and
11:10why leopards have spots and you know
11:12really creating models for biological
11:14processes he and I and his students have
11:16been working for the past five years on
11:17modeling marriages and we have a
11:19mathematical model that we've created
11:21with equations in which we can really
11:23describe what's happening in marriage
11:25simulate the way this couple will be
11:27under other conditions and design
11:28experiment
11:30so it's led us to really do these very
11:32nice brief experiments on changing the
11:34way couples interact improving a
11:36marriage in a half an hour changing a
11:38really distressed marriage and in half
11:40an hour turning it into a really
11:42terrific marriage temporarily that's the
11:45problem getting it to last is the real
11:47problem but with this mathematics
11:49background with this with this
11:50mathematical modeling that James Murray
11:52is able to really bring to this um you
11:55know we can really uh lend a lot of
11:57precision to moments like contempt what
11:59it does and how it creates suppression
12:01of the immune system how it makes people
12:03physically ill you know it everybody
12:06gets into a relationship thinking it's
12:07Unique and that's part of the attraction
12:09of it they think it's special there's
12:10nothing like it in the world I guess
12:11hearing you talk about being able to use
12:13mathematics Etc and and apply them to a
12:16relationship might make people listening
12:17to you think oh you're taking all of the
12:20zest out of it yeah right that's true I
12:21mean but you know all we're doing is
12:24really we're we're trying to you know we
12:26really describe marriages that are great
12:27marriages and you know we have a study
12:30you know uh Lura Carstensen at Stanford
12:32and Bob levenson at Berkeley and I have
12:34been doing this study for eight years of
12:36of couples in midlife and couples in
12:38their 60s and looking at Great marriages
12:41and trying to really I see researchers
12:43trying to take that magic that exists in
12:46really terrific relationships and kind
12:47of spell it out so that the rest of us
12:50can really benefit from it so I think
12:52the magic is there but I think it's
12:54really important for us scientists to
12:56really try to describe that magic
12:58understand it from within and from all
13:01different angles and then be able to
13:03teach it to people so that they can do
13:04it I think it's teachable you know we've
13:06talked about the words that people say
13:07but you also take a close look in
13:09videotaping couples and also in
13:11measuring their physiological reactions
13:13to what's happening in their bodies and
13:15you've even got some conclusions on how
13:16body language comes into play in a
13:18relationship exactly yeah could you talk
13:20about some of those sure I mean there's
13:22you know we look at uh we look at what
13:24people are doing non-verbally as
13:26listeners for example you can
13:27communicate contempt very Qui quickly
13:29and just one facial expression it looks
13:31like this so you do this contam facial
13:34expression that Paul Eckman at the
13:36University of California San Francisco
13:38has identified and you know and we can
13:40we can count those on a husband's face
13:43and they're very predictive of the
13:44number of infectious illnesses his wife
13:46is going to have in the next four years
13:48so contempt is our most corrosive thing
13:51it really corrodes love it's like sric
13:53acid for love and so we can look at
13:55these body language things uh we can
13:57look at things like long eye closures or
13:59eyelid flutters and find out that again
14:02this is Paul ekman's thinking that this
14:05this reflects people going inside and
14:07saying no to the to what their partner
14:09is saying about them so it can take
14:11these moments of non-verbal Behavior or
14:13if I'm talking to you like this and
14:15looking at you like this or sitting this
14:17way these small uh behaviors or playing
14:20with my hair or with my tie you know
14:22that tell that tell you I'm not here I'm
14:25really not involved in this
14:27conversation those really are indicative
14:29of what's going on in people's bodies
14:31the the elevation of heart rate and more
14:34importantly a kind of diffuse elevation
14:36you know where people are pumping out
14:37adrenaline the heart is Contracting hard
14:39the blood is Flowing fast the arteries
14:41are constricted in the periphery and so
14:44on blood flow is shut down to the kidney
14:46and gut that really are stuff that
14:48happens in marital conversation it's
14:50just like the stuff that would happen if
14:52we were about to have a a huge car
14:54accident and we avoided it you know our
14:56hearts would be pumping this way I mean
14:58we get heart rates of 165 beats a minute
15:00when couples are sitting down talking
15:01about his mother or the money or sex you
15:05know so you get the same kind of arousal
15:07so you have to really understand what's
15:08going on in people's bodies because when
15:10people get up to that state in their
15:12bodies they can't listen they can't take
15:14an information they can't problem solve
15:17creatively and so all of these things
15:19are really important in our
15:21understanding of why marriages fall
15:22apart or why marriages Stay Together the
15:25ability of a couple to soothe one
15:27another to make the marriage a important
15:29in a storm instead of another storm in
15:31people's lives absolutely critical in
15:33what happens to the marriage what do you
15:34think about this these kinds of results
15:36and how they might apply to people in in
15:38other cultures to people in various
15:40socioeconomic groups how much do you
15:42think your research has been bound to
15:44where you live and the couples you've
15:45looked at that's a great question I'm
15:47glad you asked me that question too
15:48because you know culture is one is one
15:51thing that uh I think that we're always
15:53dealing with with marriages it's not
15:55just culture is not important just in
15:57thinking about uh whe whether the couple
15:59is African-American Or Hispanic American
16:01or Asian-American or one person is from
16:04one culture one person is from another
16:05culture culture is important in every
16:07marriage because culture is about
16:09meaning sociologists and anthropologists
16:11will tell you that and when a couple
16:13gets hung up on a money problem that
16:15money problem money is not just money
16:18money is about what it's about Freedom
16:20it's about power it's about independence
16:22it's about competence it's about safety
16:25it's about security it's about all these
16:27millions of things that need mean
16:29something and one person's meaning is
16:31different from the other person's
16:32meaning and meshing those meanings is
16:34what it's all about for creating a
16:35marital culture and this is true if you
16:37study couples in Kuwait who have
16:39arranged marriages and are mlim or you
16:42study couples in any other culture
16:44they're having to create the shared
16:46system of meaning and that's where
16:48problems get gridlocked that's where we
16:49get the marital gridlock so you take
16:51these really simple trivial problems
16:53that couples are arguing about for years
16:55you know and that are causing all this
16:57pain it's about culture it's it's about
16:59meaning what effect does a baby have on
17:01a marriage oh it's huge uh and and the
17:04effect of the marriage on the baby is
17:05also huge it really goes two different
17:07ways now the Cowans at Berkeley Philip
17:10and carollyn Cowen who have been
17:11studying the transition to Parenthood
17:12and really have done the only study
17:14trying to help couples weather this
17:16trans transition find that not having a
17:19baby is not so it's not so good either
17:22because in the first seven years of
17:23marriage the couples that didn't have a
17:25baby their divorce rate was 50% half of
17:27them got a divorce the couples who had a
17:29baby it's 25% so a slightly better
17:32chance of staying together if you have a
17:33baby stally yes but now three4 of the
17:36people have babies wind up going on this
17:39slow slide toward divorce where where
17:42the marital happiness drops marital
17:44quality drops and the and a quarter of
17:46them don't and part of our research was
17:48really to try to see what's different
17:50about the the people who wind up in that
17:53quarter his marital satisfaction doesn't
17:54go down can we tell anything different
17:56about them and and the three quarters
17:58really suffer after the baby arrives and
18:01particularly can we tell anything about
18:02the marriage in the first couple of
18:03months of being newly wets and we can
18:06again it's this cognitive room that I
18:08mentioned and men and women are both
18:11important but especially guys so men who
18:13are really taking the time to really
18:16know their wives their wives
18:17psychological world who are really
18:20responding to them with affection and
18:21admiration and and pride and respect
18:25those people wind up in the 25% group
18:27when the baby comes so what's H what's
18:29really critical about about preserving
18:32intimacy when the baby arrives is
18:34preserving in the marriage that way of
18:38communicating caring affection knowledge
18:40of one another and admiration for one
18:42another and so we get we try to get
18:43couples to do that to nurture that part
18:45of their relationship the interesting
18:47thing is that the transition to
18:49Parenthood is really a major life
18:52transition in terms of your philosophy
18:54of Life what's important what meaning
18:56what life means CU When that baby's
18:58there
18:59well for most people that's a huge
19:01change and now people are starting to
19:02think you know the baby's life is more
19:04important than my life you know I have
19:07these very strong emotions about the
19:08baby and we both love this baby together
19:11so the the couples who who shift their
19:14their philosophy of Life their their
19:16their idea about meaning are really able
19:18to weather this transition and for them
19:20the arrival of the baby enhances the
19:22marriage you know so it's of a fabric
19:24whereas you know people think it's like
19:26a seesaw if the marriage is good you
19:28know the baby's going to suffer if your
19:30relationship with the baby is good the
19:31marriage is going to suffer our research
19:33shows that it's one fabric for these 25%
19:36of couples that really do well because
19:38they're changing their culture they're
19:40changing their own meaning system about
19:42what it means to be parents you know and
19:45they're saying you know I want my kid to
19:47this and that you know yeah I've always
19:50heard that uh Children of Divorce are
19:52going to have a very hard time in
19:53marriage you found that's not
19:54necessarily the case that's that's
19:57absolutely true I mean there is a small
19:59effect that uh that people whose parents
20:02divorced have a slightly larger chance
20:05of divorcing themselves but it's not
20:07written in stone it is by no means a
20:09strong effect and we find about 50% of
20:13the couples we see are taking what's
20:16what what they thought about what they
20:17saw going on in their parents marriages
20:19and they say not in this marriage in
20:21this marriage I remember one couple
20:23where both husband and wife said you
20:25know in our families nobody ever said
20:28once
20:29I love you I care about you and in our
20:32marriage we find a way to do that every
20:34day and I asked them well how do you do
20:35it and they said well we leave leave
20:37little notes around in secret places and
20:39we phone messages and send flow we find
20:42we have hundreds of ways of doing it and
20:43we're always thinking ways of doing it
20:45so it's it's not engraved in stone that
20:47their marriage is going to have to
20:48replicate that the generations have to
20:50reproduce the same pathology and
20:53hopelessness not at all Tolstoy said
20:56that all happy families are the same but
20:58it sounds as though though your research
20:59finds quite the opposite that there are
21:01many ways for happy for families to be
21:03happy and actually fewer ways for
21:05families to be sad that's right there's
21:07really there's really a very predictable
21:09Cascade when people move toward divorce
21:11where they get increasingly lonely and
21:13isolated from each other and you know
21:15lead parallel lives and get depressed
21:17and contemptuous and emotionally distant
21:20but there are lots of ways of having
21:21happy marriages I mean there we find
21:23these very passionate volatile couples
21:25who debate all the time well they
21:27they're fine couples who avoid conflict
21:29and really believe anger is a bad thing
21:31and you know we're not going to conflict
21:33they're fine and couples sort of in
21:35between are also fine it's that what
21:37makes the difference is really making
21:39the marriage a rich climate of
21:41positivity five times as much positivity
21:43as negativity and communicating
21:46disagreements in a gentle way in a way
21:48that's not defensive not contemptuous
21:50not critical can that generating
21:52positivity though just be fake I mean
21:54can people just be trying to make happy
21:56but yeah you know but a fake a good
21:58start I
22:00mean that's right you know I mean a lot
22:02of times one of the things that you know
22:04we tell our couples is you don't have to
22:05learn a lot of new social skills because
22:07all of this behavior is there in almost
22:10everybody in the way we treat guests you
22:12know a guest comes over forgets an
22:14umbrella we don't say what is wrong with
22:17you am I your slave I have to give you
22:18your umbrella we say you know you forgot
22:20your umbrella or a guest spills a glass
22:22of wine we say no problem would you like
22:24another glass you know we don't say you
22:26know you ruined my best tablecloth so
22:28maybe apply some of that politeness to
22:30your spous exct exactly there are many
22:32more marriage counselors now than there
22:34were 10 years ago there are many more
22:35people going to counseling and yet the
22:37divorce rate stays about the same what's
22:39going on well let me let me tell you
22:40about a study that was recently done
22:41where they interviewed all the divorce
22:42couples in a large metropolitan area uh
22:45less than 1% of them had ever had any
22:48marriage counseling either by a
22:49clergyman or a professional so we are
22:51doing a terrible job as a profession
22:53marketing marriage counseling marital
22:56workshops I think we have a big big task
22:58ahead of us to be able to communicate
23:00the couples that you know they they you
23:03cost you about $3,500 to fix the roof of
23:05your house you got to do it every five
23:07years to spend you know like $1,000 doll
23:10on fixing the marriage Under The Roof is
23:12worth it but You' been very critical
23:14about the way some of those marriage
23:15counselors do their work and and you
23:17said that it doesn't really fix the roof
23:18it still leaks that's true I you know I
23:21I really think that uh it makes a big
23:23difference to base the marital therapy
23:25and the marital workshops on Research
23:27there have only been two studies out of
23:2965 in the research literature on
23:31marriages that have gotten lasting
23:33effects Beyond two years you know
23:35marital intervention studies one of them
23:37was done by my colleague Neil Jacobson
23:38here and another was done by Snider and
23:41wills and both those Studies have two
23:43ingredients I think two active
23:45ingredients they reduce negativity in
23:48conflict resolution they make the
23:50conflict resolution softer more gentle
23:52Kinder and secondly they increase
23:55overall positivity like I've been
23:56talking about which I think is really
23:58about getting husband and wife to be
24:00better friends that's what I think it's
24:01really about and those are the two
24:04studies that have gotten lasting changes
24:05Beyond two years and our research
24:08supports those two studies entirely and
24:10amplifies how you build that friendship
24:13you know the cognitive room the respect
24:15and admiration that's really what it's
24:17about so I although I I think that a lot
24:20of the approaches have really fallen
24:22short in terms of relapse after the
24:25therapy the studies that work and I
24:28think think our research is on the same
24:29track of trying to build overall
24:31friendship in the marriage and make the
24:33way people approach conflict much
24:35gentler there are a couple of tactics
24:36used by marriage counselors that you've
24:38been very critical of and they're very
24:40commonly used one is empathy and one is
24:42active listening what are the faults you
24:44find in the use of those techniques well
24:46you know the the the model of active
24:48listening and empathy both of them are
24:49very similar is that when my wife is
24:51complaining about me you know and I'm
24:53the villain she thinks I've been
24:55insensitive and too angry and you know
24:58hot tempered and stressful and you know
25:00whatever I'm supposed to be
25:02compassionate and understanding and Ross
25:06I've seen the Dal Lama do that when he
25:07came to Seattle two years ago I went
25:09there and there was this question who
25:11asked this really hostile question and
25:12he said thank you very much I appreciate
25:15the courage it took to answer that
25:16question and he was wonderful but most
25:18people can't do that not even therap
25:20yeah well not the Dal Lama I mean I'm
25:21sure Jesus did it too you know I'm sure
25:24Moses didn't do it you know so it's hard
25:26to do that and I think it's easier to do
25:30when you're not the target when your
25:32partner is talking about something
25:33stressful that happened today and I
25:34think that's the proper context for
25:36active listening is in stress reduction
25:39and deep pressuring at the end of the
25:41day and you know really saying oh you
25:42know I've got this situation at work and
25:44then you can listen you can say tell me
25:46all about it I can be your buddy there's
25:48a great Bill Cosby routine where he
25:50walks in and he he says he feels his
25:52wife's anger in the air you know and he
25:55walks over to her and he says she's
25:57Furious and she says I want you to go
25:59upstairs and kill that boy you know and
26:01his first thought is it's not me I'm so
26:04glad it's not me you know and uh that
26:07feeling of being able to be empathetic
26:09is easier to do when you're not the
26:11target I think that's the proper place
26:13for it marriage counselers have been
26:14really saying people have to do this
26:16empathy when you are the target I think
26:19if you can do it it'll be enormously
26:21powerful but but my reading of the
26:24literature is that only a small
26:25percentage of couples can do it you know
26:2715% maybe I don't think I'm one of them
26:30if you can't do it should it just be a
26:31timeout just not talk about it timeout
26:34is one of the most powerful things
26:36couples can do to improve their
26:37marriages if they can you know monitor
26:40when they feel flooded and upset and
26:42take a real break it's and we find it's
26:44got to be a 20-minute break because of
26:46the neurotransmitters that are involved
26:47in physiological arousal they they don't
26:50degrade very easily it takes time to get
26:53him out of the bloodstream it's got to
26:54be a 20-minute period when people are
26:57not thinking in their minds I don't have
26:58to take this stuff MH and they really
27:01have to calm down especially guys we're
27:03just about out of time but for you what
27:05is the major question that you would
27:07like to answer next in your research
27:08about what works in a marriage and what
27:10hurts a marriage I think the basic
27:12problem confering our field is how to
27:14get um changes to last and how to get
27:17couples to sort of not wait to improve
27:19their marriage to do it on a daily basis
27:21like the Bible says in Ephesians Don't
27:23Let the Sun Go Down on your wrath we
27:25have to find out how to do that and a
27:27wonderful way to end Dr John Gman is
27:29Professor of psychology at the
27:30University of Washington director of the
27:32Seattle marriage and Family Institute
27:33and author of why marriages succeed or
27:36fail Dr John Gman thanks very much for
27:38being with us on a pine
27:44reflection to see more uwtv Classics
27:47visit wv.org classics

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