YT YouTube2Text

YouTube2Text → Transcripts → The Man Who Wrote Atomic Habits: Your Goals Are Quietly Restricting Your Happiness | James Clear

The Man Who Wrote Atomic Habits: Your Goals Are Quietly Restricting Your Happiness | James Clear — Transcript

by The Diary Of A CEO · 30,807 words · 4,247 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

Open in transcriber Summarize with AI Download SRT/VTT

Full transcript

0:00You've written one of the best-selling
0:01books in history about habits because
0:04people always need more practical help
0:07with implementing their habits. And I
0:09have different strategies and different
0:11tools to get habits to stick, including
0:13one principle that is probably the
0:15single most important for building
0:16habits, but so much of it is about
0:18mastering the art of getting started.
0:20>> Let's get started then. James Clear is
0:22one of the world's leading habit
0:24experts. is educating millions to build
0:26lasting habits, master goal setting, and
0:29ultimately redesign their lives.
0:31>> There are four different stages that
0:32every habit goes through. Q, craving,
0:34response, and reward. So, first, we want
0:36to make it obvious. Easier it is to see
0:37or get your attention, the more likely
0:39you are to act on it. The second is
0:41about the craving. It's all about making
0:42it attractive. And the more engaging or
0:44exciting it is, the more likely you are
0:45to stick with it. The third is to make
0:47it easy. The easier a habit is to
0:48perform, the more likely it is to
0:50happen. And then the fourth and final
0:51one is to make it satisfying. And that's
0:53about increasing the odds that you do it
0:55next time. [music] And there's some
0:56tools that we can go through. But one of
0:57the big takeaways from atomic habits is
0:59it's easier [music] to build a new habit
1:01if you stack it on top of the habit
1:04you're already doing. So let's say that
1:05your current habit is you make a cup of
1:06coffee. And the new habit that you want
1:08to build is you want to start
1:10meditating. So then you could say, "All
1:11right, after I make my morning cup of
1:13coffee, I will meditate for 60 seconds."
1:15And you can do it for anything. There's
1:16also a framework that I call hats,
1:18haircuts, and tattoos. the secret to
1:20winning, habit shaping, and real lesson
1:22of getting 1% better every day. And we
1:24can talk about all of them.
1:25>> But is there any frameworks, any
1:26tactics? If you're trying to break a
1:28habit, if you want to break a bad habit,
1:30there's some things that you can do.
1:32>> James, the book has shaped tens and tens
1:33and tens of millions of lives, is there
1:35anything you look back on that you
1:36regret? If I could add something, I
1:38would add this because if you really
1:40want to make progress again and again,
1:41if you want to get to the top and stay
1:43at the top and you need to be able to
1:47I see messages all the time in the
1:49comment section that some of you didn't
1:50realize you didn't subscribe. So, if you
1:52could do me a favor and double check if
1:54you're a subscriber to this channel,
1:55that would be tremendously appreciated.
1:57It's the simple, it's the free thing
1:59that anybody that watches this show
2:00frequently can do to help us here to
2:02keep everything going in this show in
2:03the trajectory it's on. So, please do
2:05double check if you've subscribed and uh
2:07thank you so much because in a strange
2:09way you are you're part of our history
2:11and you're on this journey with us and I
2:13appreciate you for that. So, yeah, thank
2:14you.
2:16[music]
2:22>> James, you've written thousands and
2:25thousands of things, but one particular
2:26thing you wrote called Atomic Habits is
2:28one of the bestselling books in history.
2:31Um, it is rumored to be potentially
2:35in the top 100 books that have sold in
2:37history of all time, but also rumored to
2:39be potentially the youngest book to make
2:41the top 100 books in history. My
2:44question is,
2:46what has the success of Atomic Habits
2:48taught you about the nature of humanity
2:51and humans?
2:53We all have habits. We all need habits.
2:55You know, it's one of those really it's
2:57an interesting concept because it is
2:59both universal in the sense that we all
3:01have them, we all need them, but it's
3:03also highly individual. Your habits feel
3:05like your habits, not mine, you know,
3:07and [clears throat] so it's both
3:07universal and specific. Uh, and that's
3:10that's an interesting contrast, and I
3:11think it leads to one of the reasons why
3:14people are so interested in the topic.
3:16You know, we all have them. We all need
3:17them. We all feel like they're our own,
3:19and we want to come up with our little
3:20version of them. But the habit also is
3:23like an entrance ramp to how you spend
3:25your time in other ways. Like the habit
3:27of pulling out your phone, that habit
3:29might only take two seconds to do, but
3:31then it might dictate what you do for
3:33the next hour. You know, you're
3:34answering emails or browsing social
3:36media or playing a video game or
3:37whatever. And it was really the initial
3:39habit of pulling out the phone that
3:41shaped what that hour did. So the
3:44influence of our habits is enormous. You
3:46know, in a lot of ways, your your
3:49results in life are kind of a lagging
3:50measure of the habits that precede them.
3:52You know, like your knowledge is a
3:54lagging measure of your reading and
3:55learning habits. Your bank account is a
3:58lagging measure of your financial
3:59habits. Even silly stuff like the amount
4:02of clutter in your living room is the
4:03lagging measure of your cleaning habits.
4:05And so, we all so badly want our
4:09outcomes to change, you know, we also
4:10badly want our results to change, but
4:12the results are not actually the thing
4:14that needs to change. It's like fix the
4:15habits and the results will fix
4:17themselves. Change the inputs and the
4:18outputs will shift automatically.
4:20>> And it's funny because the book has
4:21shaped tens and tens and tens of
4:23millions of lives, but it also must have
4:24shaped you in some ways.
4:25>> Oh, of course. In a way, I had to learn
4:28the concepts to write the book. Like I
4:30had to build writing habits to write the
4:32book. The fact that I have struggled
4:33with habits and failed with them. The
4:35fact that I've tried things and it
4:36hasn't worked out. The fact that I have
4:37eventually broken through and been able
4:39to build habits. that all of that made
4:42the book better because you realize how
4:44hard it is to have something practical
4:46to say. I actually think I have this
4:48little theory that uh a lot of books are
4:50branded as how-to books, but they're
4:52actually what to books. They tell you
4:54what to think. You should be confident.
4:55You should believe in yourself. You
4:56should take XYZ action, but they don't
4:59actually tell you how to do those
5:01things.
5:01>> And in and in hindsight, is there
5:04anything you look back on that you
5:05regret about the book?
5:06>> I don't think there's anything that I
5:08regret. If I could add something, I
5:10would add something. I would add this
5:11simple question, which is, what would it
5:13look like if this was fun? What would it
5:16look like if your habits were fun? Like
5:18the most common New Year's resolution is
5:19to do some form of exercise. So, you
5:22know, I feel like a lot of people are
5:23going to the gym in January because they
5:25feel like they should go to the gym or
5:27society wants them to go to the gym, you
5:28know, or there's some kind of social
5:30pressure to go to the gym. But if we
5:33were to come up with a list of what it
5:34means to be active and fit, you know,
5:36and healthy, we could come up with a
5:38long list of things. Go to the gym and
5:40lift weights. You could kayak, rock
5:42climb, do yoga, pilates, what, like, you
5:45know, we could probably sit here for
5:46like 15 minutes and come up with a real
5:47long list. And for most of your habits,
5:50if it's an important habit to you, I
5:51think it's worth it to take 10 minutes
5:53and write that list out and then look at
5:55it at the end and say, "What would this
5:57look like if it was fun? what's which of
5:59these options is the most fun to me. And
6:02that doesn't mean that your habits will
6:04be like the most fun thing that you do
6:06each day. You know, it's not like it's
6:07always going to feel like going to a
6:08concert or something, but it does mean
6:11that pretty much any habit can be more
6:13fun than the default, you know? So, you
6:15might as well take a little bit of time
6:16to figure out what is the fun version of
6:18this. And ultimately, I think the reason
6:20why this matters is that if you're
6:23having fun, you're more likely to stick
6:25with it. You're more likely to
6:26persevere. The person who's having fun
6:28is actually the person who's dangerous.
6:30Like you don't want to compete with them
6:32because they're having a good time. When
6:33it gets difficult, they're way more
6:35likely to stick with it. The person who
6:37it felt like a hassle at the start was
6:39kind of, you know, annoying. They sort
6:40of have a negative frame around the the
6:42behavior to begin with. Well, as soon as
6:44it gets difficult, they didn't want to
6:45do it in the first place. So, they're
6:47much more likely to give up. David
6:49Epstein, who's the author of uh Range
6:51and Sports Genius, friend of mine, um he
6:53told me once, "Grit is fit." Grit is
6:55fit. And what he means is that everybody
6:58wants to be gritty. They want to
6:59persevere. But the way that you display
7:01that grit and discipline and
7:03perseverance is in areas where you are
7:05well suited, where it's a good fit for
7:07you. If [clears throat] it's a good fit,
7:09if you're well suited for it, if you're
7:10having fun, if you're interested and
7:12engaged, then you're way more likely to
7:14stick with it. And so, in a lot of ways,
7:16I feel like the biggest hurdle to clear,
7:19and this is true maybe for life in
7:20general, but definitely for habits,
7:21because everybody wants to be consistent
7:23with their habits. Everybody wants to
7:24stick to them. The biggest hurdle to
7:26clear is are you interested? Are are you
7:28engaged? Are you having fun? And so the
7:31more that you can get closer to that,
7:33the more fun it can be, the more likely
7:35you are to persevere and stick with it.
7:36>> I was just thinking about this idea
7:38actually the other day because I I was
7:40writing when we hit a subscriber
7:42milestone. I was writing to think about
7:43what actually mattered the most. And one
7:45of the first thing I wrote was creating
7:46the conditions to out persist.
7:49>> And what I mean by that is like create
7:50the conditions so that you can do this
7:52for long enough that things start
7:54compounding in your favor. like learning
7:55starts compounding in your favor like
7:57the the returns like the the subscribers
8:00or it could be your finances whatever
8:01start compounding in your favor.
8:02>> The question that you asked is very
8:04similar to one that I ask myself a lot
8:06which is am I creating the conditions
8:07for success. So I had a really good
8:10stretch of training in the gym and then
8:12uh about two and a half years ago I was
8:14in pretty good shape and then I had a
8:16year where it was just like really
8:17inconsistent. I missed a lot of workouts
8:18things sometimes it would go well
8:19sometimes it wouldn't whatever. And
8:21after that year I was like okay I got to
8:23change something. And on the surface,
8:25you look at it and you think, I'm having
8:27trouble with the workouts. You think
8:28there's some problem with, you know,
8:30exercise, but that was actually not the
8:32problem. The problem was I wasn't
8:33creating the conditions for success.
8:36>> And so, there were lots of other things
8:37that were intervening and like making
8:39interrupting my day and making it easy
8:41for me to miss. So, this last year, I
8:43hired a trainer and he shows up at 11:00
8:45a.m. every, you know, four days a week.
8:47And when he gets there, every single
8:48time it's a hassle because I'm in the
8:51middle of something. Um, right? every
8:53time I've got something going on and I
8:54kind of am like annoyed by it that he's
8:56there, but we're creating the conditions
8:58for success and it makes sure that I get
8:59down there and I do it and then every
9:01time when I get done with the workout,
9:02I'm like, I'm glad I took the time to do
9:04that. Um, and so nothing really needed
9:07to change with the workout. That was not
9:08the problem. The problem was I didn't
9:10have the right conditions to start the
9:12workout. M
9:13>> and so I think this actually reveals a
9:16really deep and important thing about
9:18habits which is
9:20so much of it is about mastering the art
9:23of getting started. It's making it easy
9:25to start in a way like probably 70% of
9:28what's in atomic habits are different
9:30strategies and different ideas and
9:32different tools that help you get
9:34started or makes starting easier. This
9:36trainer who I've been working with now
9:38he he came over the other day and he
9:39told me, "Yeah, I had a class in the
9:41morning. eight people were supposed to
9:42come, but it was like it was a pretty
9:44gross day. It was like rainy and wet and
9:46kind of cold and only two people showed
9:48up. And I was talking to him about it
9:50and I said, "What's interesting to me
9:51about that is how little of an edge you
9:54need to gain an advantage." You know,
9:56really what we're talking about there is
9:58you just need to be okay with being
10:00inconvenienced or uncomfortable for like
10:025 to 10 minutes getting dressed, getting
10:04through the rain, getting into your car,
10:05getting to the gym. The workout is the
10:07same that it's always been. It's the
10:09same. you're in the same gym that you
10:10are in the summer or when the weather's
10:11beautiful or whatever. So, it's really
10:13can you handle that like five minutes of
10:15inconvenience.
10:16>> And so many things in life are like
10:18that. Can you master that little moment?
10:19And if you can and you can still get
10:21started, that's when you gain an
10:24advantage. Everybody works out on the
10:26good days. But on the days when you feel
10:27stressed and tired, on the days when the
10:29weather's bad and it's kind of
10:30inconvenient, on the days when you don't
10:32really feel like it, can you show up?
10:34even if it's in a small way. One of my
10:37little mantras that I try to keep in
10:38mind is reduce the scope but stick to
10:40the schedule. So the normal scope might
10:44be I write for 30 minutes and then you
10:46look up at the clock and you're like I
10:47only have 15. And sometimes what happens
10:49in your head is you're like oh I don't
10:50have enough time to write today. Or
10:52you're like oh I was planning to work
10:53out for 60 minutes and you look up and
10:54you're like time got away from me. I
10:55only have 20 minutes now. I don't have
10:57time to go to the gym. It's easy to talk
10:58yourself out of it but reduce the scope
11:02but stick to the schedule. It's like,
11:03well, I only got 20 minutes instead of
11:0560, so I'll just get in there and do a
11:06couple sets of squats and that's it. And
11:08I've had so many workouts that have been
11:09like that where you're like almost, you
11:11know, it's easy to be kind of
11:13disappointed you weren't able to do the
11:14whole thing that you wanted to do. But
11:16you didn't throw up a zero. And if you
11:19don't throw up a zero, you maintain the
11:21habit. And if you maintain the habit,
11:22all you need is time. And so the bad
11:25days are more important than the good
11:26days in that sense. You need to figure
11:28out how do you show up even if when it's
11:29not optimal.
11:30>> And that first five minutes. Yeah, I was
11:33thinking about all the the first five
11:35minute battles that I've won over the
11:37last week because I've, you know, I lost
11:38track of my workout. I've been traveling
11:39through Asia on this tour I've been
11:41doing. Got back, fallen off. The
11:45motivation doesn't seem to be quite the
11:48same as it was before I left. [laughter]
11:50So, it's like I'm dragging myself there.
11:52The workouts are like four out of 10.
11:55Um, but I went.
11:56>> Yeah.
11:57>> And now I'm I think the momentum is
11:58building. But that first 5 minute point,
12:01is there anything that you've learned,
12:02any frameworks, any tactics for for
12:05making sure you you get past that first
12:065 minutes so you can get into the the
12:08flow of the habit?
12:09>> Yeah, there's multiple things. So first
12:10thing is try to prime the environment to
12:13make the first action easy. Prime the
12:16environment to make the first action
12:17easy. So let's say writing for example.
12:19I find that for myself the biggest point
12:21of friction is choosing what to write
12:23about. Once I've actually finally
12:25settled, this is the thing I'm writing
12:27today, then I can get into it and I'm
12:29off and running. Um, but I'll sit there
12:32for two hours just debating whether it's
12:33the right thing to be focused on writing
12:35or not. You know, should I work on this
12:36chapter? Should I work on something else
12:37or whatever. So, what I've started to do
12:39is sometimes I will write the first
12:41sentence of what I'm going to write and
12:42just leave it on the Google doc right
12:44there and then leave. And the next day
12:46when I come back, I'm already in, right?
12:48Like it's already the first sentence is
12:50already written. So now I'm just writing
12:51the next piece of what's coming rather
12:53than trying to choose what to write
12:55about.
12:56>> Another one that I've done sometimes is
12:57I will write sometimes I'll write the
12:59topic or I'll write the sentence on a
13:00post-it note and I'll put it on top of
13:02the keyboard and so when I come into the
13:04office it's right there in front of I
13:05can't you know I got to pick it off the
13:07keys to log onto the computer and so
13:10it's like remember this is what you're
13:11writing about right now you know so it's
13:13just trying to make it easy to get in. I
13:14have a bunch of readers who do stuff
13:16like set their running out running
13:17clothes out the night before, you know,
13:18so they're right next to the bed. You
13:20got your clothes and your shoes there. I
13:21one woman I just talked to uh her at an
13:23event. She came up afterward and she
13:25said, "I actually sleep in my running
13:26clothes and just get out and get put her
13:28shoes on and goes right out the door."
13:30But you're trying to prime the
13:31environment to make the action easy.
13:32Okay. So, how can you set up the spaces
13:34that you're in uh to prime those habits?
13:37I think one really interesting question
13:38to ask, walk into the rooms where you
13:41spend most of your time each day, your
13:43office, your living room, your bedroom,
13:45and then look around and ask yourself,
13:47what is this space designed to
13:49encourage? What behaviors are easy here?
13:51What behaviors are obvious here? And the
13:54good habits that you say you want to
13:56build, are those the path of least
13:57resistance? Is that the obvious thing in
13:59this environment? And if not, maybe you
14:01can make some adjustments to try to make
14:02the good habit easier and the
14:04distractions maybe a little bit harder.
14:06So that's first thing, prime the
14:07environment to make the action easy.
14:09Second thing is if there's like one
14:12principle that is probably the single
14:14most important for building habits, it's
14:15make it easy. Just scale it down and
14:18make it easy. I refer to it sometimes as
14:20the two-minute rule. So take whatever
14:22habit you're trying to work on, you
14:23scale it down to something that takes
14:24two minutes or less to do. Read 30 books
14:27a year becomes read one page or do yoga
14:30four days a week becomes take out my
14:32yoga mat.
14:33Sometimes I will mention this to people
14:35and they resist it a little bit. You
14:36know, they're like, "Okay, buddy." Like,
14:38I know the real goal isn't just to take
14:39my yoga mat out. You know, I know I'm
14:41actually trying to do the workout. So,
14:42this is some kind of mental trick and I
14:44know it's a trick. Then why would I fall
14:45for it? Basically, but there's this guy,
14:48I mentioned him in Atomic Habits, his
14:49name is Mitch. And he went to the gym
14:52and for the first six weeks, he had this
14:54strange little rule for himself where he
14:56wasn't allowed to stay for longer than 5
14:58minutes. So, you get in the car, drive
15:00to the gym, get out, do half an
15:01exercise, get back in the car, drive
15:03home. And you're like, "This sounds
15:05silly, right? Clearly, this is not going
15:07to get the guy the results that he
15:08wants." But what you realize is that he
15:11was mastering the art of showing up,
15:13right? He was becoming the type of
15:14person that went to the gym four days a
15:16week, even if it was only for five
15:17minutes. And so, I think this is kind of
15:20a deep truth about habits, which is a
15:23habit must be established before it can
15:25be improved. you know, has to become the
15:27standard in your life before you
15:28optimize and scale it up into something
15:29more. There's that quote from Ed
15:32Latimore where he says, "The heaviest
15:34weight at the gym is the front door."
15:36There are a lot of things in life that
15:37are like that. And so, by trying to make
15:40it easy to master, to easy to get
15:42started, um then you're in the game now.
15:45You're in the arena. There's all kinds
15:46of things you can improve from there. I
15:48remember um Jordan Peterson saying
15:50talking about his some of his clinical
15:52um patients and referring to one in
15:54particular who was in a room full of
15:56junk and couldn't leave the room because
15:58of a certain fear and certain
16:00psychological problems he had. And
16:02Jordan saying that day one they just
16:03brought the Hoover into the room and
16:05that was it. Day two they plugged the
16:07Hoover in and that was it. And then by
16:09day like 30 the guy is out of the room,
16:11the room is clean and he's walking
16:13around outside for the first time in in
16:14months or years. And he goes on to say
16:17that the reason why people don't get
16:18started is because the first step is so
16:20embarrassing. People think that it's not
16:22worth it or that it's like shameful to
16:24do. It's like almost like patronizingly
16:26embarrassing. And um I've always kept
16:28that in mind uh since then and when from
16:30your work as well just that assume the
16:32first steps are like embarrassingly
16:34small.
16:35>> There's this process called habit
16:36shaping which is is basically like that.
16:39Um, you know, like if you want to run a
16:40half marathon, the first day the step
16:42might be to put on your running shoes
16:44and then the second day the step is to
16:45like walk outside the front door and the
16:47third day the step is to go around the
16:48block. And you know, you're just like
16:50gradually shaping into this this larger
16:51habit. But there's this thing that
16:54happens when people think about building
16:56better habits. I think particularly
16:58ambitious people, it's very easy to get
17:01excited about all the changes you can
17:02make. You start thinking, even if you
17:04don't say this explicitly, you think
17:05like, what would peak performance look
17:07like? you know, if I could really get my
17:08habits dialed in, what could I do? And
17:10you start imagining five, six, seven
17:12things that you would do and what all of
17:13them would look like in their perfect
17:14form and so on. And I think instead of
17:18asking ourselves, what could I do on my
17:20best day, it's better to start by asking
17:22what can I stick to even on the bad
17:24days? And that becomes your baseline.
17:26That becomes the first step. And now
17:28that you have this floor that is
17:30achievable even when you're tired, even
17:32when you're exhausted, even when you
17:33don't have much time, now you can show
17:36up and feel like you're succeeding, you
17:38know, and then you can progress from
17:39there. One of the most motivating
17:41feelings to the human mind is a feeling
17:42of progress. If you feel like you're
17:44making progress, even if it's smaller
17:46than what you ultimately hope to do, you
17:48have every reason to move forward. But
17:50often we become like a victim of our
17:51expectations. We ex we spend all this
17:53time optimizing the perfect plan and
17:55then expect things to go perfectly out
17:57of the gate and you had it so built up
17:59in your mind that once you don't hit
18:01that mark in the f first or second or
18:02third day it falls apart.
18:05>> And you talked earlier on about sitting
18:08there for two hours thinking about what
18:10to write. I I think I've learned through
18:12through business and in the first
18:13iteration of my career where I worked
18:14with CEOs and executives that were
18:16planning marketing campaigns that
18:18actually in hindsight often the biggest
18:20cost wasn't being wrong. It was the time
18:22you waste making a decision. You see
18:23this if you've ever you've interacted
18:25with so many big corporations. Yeah.
18:26Like they spend 18 months thinking about
18:29>> get waiting for Joanna to come back from
18:30annual leave to get procurement to sign
18:32off the thing. And I worked with this
18:34one particular founder during that
18:36season of my life who where I was
18:37working with his dad and him and his dad
18:40would take nine months because the
18:41company was so big. His son would
18:44interrupt me halfway through the idea
18:45and call us all in and say do it now.
18:48And he taught me that actually in life
18:50that the biggest cost is the time you
18:51waste making the decision. And I think
18:53about that with my own habits. I think
18:55sometimes sitting around thinking about
18:56whether I'm going to run today is
18:58costing me much more than just [ __ ]
19:00And do you think about how you kill that
19:02mental debate? Like is that an effective
19:04strategy to try and kill the debate and
19:05not make a decision per se?
19:06>> Yeah. So speed is perpetually
19:08undervalued. That's for sure. Life is
19:10short and so the sooner that you make
19:12decisions, the sooner you get
19:13information. Now, I will say I I have a
19:16little framework that I call hats,
19:17haircuts, and tattoos. And this is how
19:19how I kind of think about it. So, a lot
19:22of decisions are like hats. Just try you
19:24try one hat. If you don't like it, take
19:25it off. You can try another. It's just
19:27real quick. You you know, you get some
19:28information. Speed is most important.
19:30Move quickly, get some information,
19:32learn something. If it was wrong, it's
19:33not that big of a deal. Just take it off
19:35and put a new hat on. Haircut is a
19:37little bit trickier. It's a It's a
19:39decision that you have to live with for
19:41a little bit. you know, like you're okay
19:42if you get a bad haircut, but you're
19:44gonna you're gonna have to live with it
19:45for a month or two. You know, it's it's
19:46going to take a little bit of time for
19:47it to grow out. And so, it's probably
19:50not a big deal to be scared of getting a
19:51bad haircut. I think a lot of people
19:53probably talk themselves out of it. It's
19:54like, you'll be fine in a month. It's
19:55it's fine. Tattoos are trickier. You
19:58know, you get a tattoo, you got to live
19:59with that choice. It's permanent. And
20:01so, if a really what we're getting at
20:03here is, is the choice reversible or is
20:05the choice irreversible? If the choice
20:07is easy to reverse, speed is most
20:09important. You should move fast. If it's
20:11hard to reverse and you got to live with
20:13it, then you need to think carefully
20:14before you make the call. Um, and I
20:17think probably what you're seeing uh
20:18through some of your experiences is that
20:20most decisions in life are hats and
20:22haircuts. It's very rare that you end up
20:24with a tattoo,
20:24>> but we treat them all like tattoos.
20:26>> We Yeah, we uh I think in particular we
20:29are we are scared, particularly the bad
20:32haircuts. I think the ones that like
20:34linger for just a little bit, but not
20:35that long. It's like it's going to take
20:37you a month to fix this if if you get it
20:38wrong, but like that's fine. a month's
20:40going to pass anyway. Um, and so it's
20:42not that big of a deal, but we we act
20:44like it's a bigger deal than it is.
20:46>> Is there a particular case study or
20:47story from a Atomic Habits community
20:50member or someone that reads your
20:51newsletter
20:53that has been the most impactful for
20:54you?
20:56>> There's not a single one. There are lots
20:58that I'm like proud of or really excited
20:59by, ones I'm surprised by. Um, I heard
21:03from a guy the other day, he was the
21:04head coach at St. Olaf's University in
21:06Minnesota and men's soccer. And when he
21:10came in, their record was something like
21:11five and 13 and they were, you know,
21:13like near the bottom of the standings.
21:15And he was like, I read Atomic Habits
21:18right around the time I took this job.
21:19And we came up with systems for
21:21everything we did. We taught our players
21:22systems for how they tie their shoes and
21:24cleats to get ready for the game. We
21:26taught them systems for how they prepped
21:28for practice. We taught them systems for
21:29their role on the field. And uh, you
21:31know, gradually they improved each year,
21:33five and 13. Then they went like eight
21:34and eight. And then the next year after
21:36that they won the conference. And then
21:37the year after that they went to the
21:38NCAA Sweet 16 and then five years later
21:40they won the national championship. You
21:42know, of course stuff like that's
21:43awesome to hear about, right? You're
21:44like they went from they went from five
21:46wins uh in and then in five years later
21:49they win the national title. But the
21:51ones that matter to me the most are the
21:53ones that I hear from somebody and they
21:56say um I finally feel better. You know,
22:00I feel different. I look in the mirror
22:01and I'm like proud of who I am or uh my
22:03kids tell me that they're excited to
22:05see, you know, the change in me or
22:06things like that. And that's what it's
22:08always been about, you know, it's always
22:09been about becoming the type of person
22:11that you want to be. And so I think uh
22:13anytime I I hear stories like that, I
22:15think it's exciting.
22:16>> So when this um was it a coach or was it
22:18>> Yeah, Travis Wall is the head coach at
22:20St. Olaf's. Um he's the head coach at
22:22Kenyon. Uh now,
22:23>> so he talked about systems there. Most
22:25of us think about to-do lists and goals
22:27and those kinds of things. What what is
22:29the difference between a system and a
22:31goal?
22:31>> I was very goal driven for a long time.
22:33I I mean, I probably still am. You know,
22:34I don't think there's any way to get
22:36around the fact that we all have goals
22:38and think about the outcomes we want and
22:39so on. But a goal is about the outcome
22:42that you want to achieve and a system is
22:44about the process for getting there. And
22:46so your goal is the target, the outcome,
22:48the thing you're shooting for. Your
22:50system is the collection of daily habits
22:53that you follow. And if there is ever a
22:55gap between your goal and your system,
22:58if there's ever a gap between your
22:59desired outcome and your daily habits,
23:02your daily habits will always win,
23:05>> you know. And so almost by definition,
23:07your current habits are perfectly
23:09designed to deliver your current
23:11results. You know, if you want to see
23:13like where you're going to end up, just
23:14follow the trajectory of your habits.
23:16you know what's the process you've been
23:17running for the last 6 months or year or
23:19two years and they've carried you almost
23:21inevitably to the outcomes that you have
23:23right now I'm not saying that habits are
23:25the only thing that matter in life right
23:27like strategy matters luck randomness uh
23:30those misfortune those things can
23:32influence the outcome but by definition
23:35luck and randomness are not under your
23:38control
23:38>> and your habits are and the only
23:40reasonable rational approach in life is
23:42to focus on the pieces that are within
23:44your control so I think goals can be
23:47good for setting a sense of direction.
23:48They're good for clarity. You know,
23:50especially if you have a team, get
23:51everybody rowing in the same direction.
23:53But once you've decided what the goal
23:55is, you should basically set it on the
23:58shelf, metaphorically speaking, and
23:59spend the vast majority of your time
24:01focused on building a better system. How
24:02are the habits we're executing each day
24:04moving us closer to this outcome that we
24:06want? And so where I've come after
24:08talking about this for five or six years
24:10now since book's been out, where I've
24:12come down on it is goals are best for
24:15people who care about winning once.
24:16Systems are best for people who care
24:18about winning repeatedly. If you really
24:20want to make progress again and again,
24:21if you want to get to the top and stay
24:22at the top, you need some process for
24:25staying up there. Some collection of
24:27habits that's going to keep uh this
24:28machine running. So this is why, you
24:31know, I say in the book, we don't rise
24:33to level of our goals, we fall to level
24:35of our systems. As you were talking, I
24:37was thinking so much about about
24:38business and founders and entrepreneurs
24:40because they all have big goals. We want
24:43to build the best AI app or the best I
24:46don't know restaurant and we they stay
24:48really focused on those. But the great
24:50the greatest founders that I think I've
24:51met and interviewed on this show are
24:53actually really orientated on like what
24:54you call in the book first principles
24:56and systems. Mhm.
24:58>> Is there a way to to become more
25:00orientated towards systems and and
25:02thinking about first principles like the
25:04the habits that lead to the goal is or
25:06is it just just so that some people have
25:08it cuz like Elon Musk is always talking
25:11about first principles and he thinks in
25:12terms of building the system. I do think
25:14some of it is personality and like what
25:16you what's exciting to you to think
25:18about like some people are very future
25:20oriented and like thinking about what
25:21the systems are and what that would lead
25:23them to and and so on um or more
25:25processoriented but there are a number
25:27of questions that you can ask that can
25:29help you figure out like what systems
25:31you should be focused on you know so
25:33like a couple of the ones I like one
25:35question is can my current habits carry
25:37me to my desired future so you have a
25:39bunch of habits you're following right
25:40now what what path are you on you know
25:43can your current habits take you there?
25:44And they could be either way. Like
25:46sometimes the answer is yes. And what
25:48you need is patience. You just need to
25:49keep, you know, staying on the path. But
25:51sometimes the answer is no. And then
25:53obviously something needs to change. You
25:54know, you're hoping for one outcome, but
25:56then you're following a different
25:57lifestyle.
25:58>> So to want the outcome without the
25:59lifestyle is to like torture yourself.
26:01And what really matters is not do you
26:04want the the result. Anybody would like
26:06the result if you just hand it to them.
26:08The question is do you want the
26:09lifestyle? One of the little things I
26:11try to do whenever I have a new business
26:12project that I'm thinking about or
26:13something I'm I'm excited about
26:14potentially doing, the first question I
26:17ask is how do I want to spend my days?
26:19And so then you like draw a box and
26:21inside that box, how can we make the
26:24most money, reach the most people, make
26:26the biggest impact, you know, make the
26:28contribution that you want to make, but
26:29not outside of it. And what happens a
26:31lot of the time is people do that in
26:32reverse. They start by asking how can we
26:34make the most money or reach the most
26:36people or make the biggest impact and
26:38then they decide oh well this is what I
26:39want to do but it's actually outside of
26:42how they want to spend their days
26:43>> and it's not going to work out well
26:45because you know it goes back to our
26:46point uh previously about is this fun
26:48you know if the if they don't want to
26:50spend their time that way you're just
26:51grinding for a little while and
26:52eventually it's not going to work.
26:53That's the key for building systems that
26:56really work is is this how you want to
26:57spend your days. the person who wants to
26:59live the lifestyle is much better
27:01positioned to get the result.
27:03>> You say that um there are multiple
27:05problems with with goals as a I guess as
27:08a rubric for thinking about what to do
27:10or what to aim for. One of them is that
27:13winners and losers have the same goals.
27:16>> Everybody wants the results. Let's say
27:17you have a 100 people apply for a job.
27:19You got a new job opening.
27:20>> Presumably, [clears throat]
27:21every candidate has the goal of getting
27:23the job. The goal is not the thing that
27:25determines the outcome. So the person
27:26who wins and the 99 people who lose,
27:28they have the same goals. You look at
27:29the Olympic Games, presumably any event,
27:32everybody who's competing has the goal
27:33of winning the Olympic medal, right? Of
27:35winning the gold. So the goal is not the
27:37thing that makes the difference. So
27:39again, winners and losers have the same
27:41goals. So if they have the same goals,
27:43they cannot be the thing that make the
27:44difference in their performance. It has
27:45to be something else. Maybe having a
27:47goal is part of it. Maybe it's
27:49necessary, but it's not sufficient for
27:51the outcome that you want. And for that,
27:53what you need is a system. You need a
27:54collection of habits that are going to
27:56make the difference um and uh and
27:58accumulate into a bigger outcome.
27:59>> And you say goals restrict your
28:01happiness.
28:02>> There's some implicit promise internally
28:04that once I get to this goal, then I'll
28:06be happy. You know, once I write a New
28:08York Times bestseller, then I'll feel
28:09better about it. You know, once I
28:12achieve this certain number on the
28:13scale, then I'll be happy with my body.
28:15Once I get to a million dollars in
28:17revenue, then I'll be happy with the
28:18business. And so you're kind of
28:20constantly pushing happiness off to the
28:23next milestone and thinking that once
28:25you get there, then finally you'll be
28:26satisfied. But I think in fact the
28:29better way to do it is to fall in love
28:32with the process, to fall in love with
28:33the lifestyle, then you can be happy
28:35along the way and still achieve the
28:37goals as you go, still achieve the
28:39milestones. For a long time, I wrestled
28:41I had trouble with this question of do I
28:42have to be dissatisfied if I want to be
28:44driven?
28:45>> Yeah.
28:45>> Do you have to be dissatisfied to be
28:46driven? Because to me, I felt like
28:50there's where I'm at right now and
28:51there's where I want to be. And so
28:53there's this gap and there that gap is
28:55dissatisfaction. That gap is, you know,
28:57you're you want it to change. You want
28:59it to close. And it's also what is
29:01motivating and driving you is to try to
29:03close that gap. And so the healthiest
29:07answer, maybe the answer is yes, I don't
29:09know. But uh the healthiest answer that
29:11I've come up with is imagine like an
29:13acorn falls from a tree. it manages to
29:15take root, becomes a seedling and then a
29:17sapling and eventually grows into this
29:19mature oak tree. And at no point in that
29:22process when it was just an acorn, it
29:23wasn't criticizing itself for not being
29:25a sapling. You know, it was just a
29:26sapling, it wasn't criticizing itself
29:27for not being an oak. Um, it wasn't
29:29dissatisfied with where it was at. And
29:31nobody came over and was criticizing it
29:33for, "Oh, I can't believe you're not a
29:34full-grown tree yet." But it kept
29:37growing the whole time. So
29:40simultaneously you have this thing where
29:41it was both perfect at each stage that
29:44it was at. Nothing was wrong and yet it
29:46continued to grow. And the reason is
29:48because that's just what an oak tree
29:50does. That's what it is encoded to do.
29:52It is encoded for growth. And so when I
29:55look at myself, I think if I put myself
29:57in the right position, that's how I feel
29:59about it. You know, I I am perfectly
30:02happy with where I'm at at each stage.
30:04And yet I'm encoded to grow, right? I'm
30:07encoded to keep going. And so I can both
30:09be driven and be satisfied. I can both
30:12be appreciative of the moment and still
30:14moving forward. And I think that works
30:16best when you find that thing. Sometimes
30:18we call it your strengths. Sometimes we
30:20might say it's what you're encoded to
30:22do. Uh but when you find that thing that
30:24is well aligned for you and if you do
30:26find that, then you can have both of
30:28those.
30:28>> I love that. I love that. And I think
30:30with with age and maturity, I've gotten
30:32closer to being in that region where I'm
30:34well aware nothing is going to make me
30:36happier at all. like no accomplishment
30:37future nothing's going to change
30:38anything
30:39>> but at the same time I'm still striving
30:42and that does feel like a contradiction
30:43to some degree it feels like how can
30:45those two things be true at the same
30:46time that you're striving for things
30:47that you know won't really move the
30:49needle in any any way the difference I
30:52see between like me and something in
30:55nature is that I the thing in nature
30:58probably isn't comparing itself on
30:59Instagram to like
31:00>> everyone else and I understand humans to
31:03be like comparison machines kind of how
31:04we understand the value of things like I
31:06understand the value of the steak on a
31:08menu by the the cheap steak and the most
31:10expensive one. So I think the middle one
31:11is probably right. Do you think much
31:13about comparison as a motivating or
31:16demotivating force in this picture?
31:18>> I think it can be very helpful and also
31:20it can also be very harmful. So it's
31:21just sort of a a sense of how you use
31:23it. I tend to find it better if you
31:25compare small things. So if you compare
31:27marketing strategies or squat form or
31:29you know writing style or you know the
31:31first sentence of each chapter like how
31:32do I have a good intro? If you compare
31:34tactics, then that can be really helpful
31:36for building skills and for developing
31:38your ability. If you compare big things,
31:40marriage, net worth, you know, things
31:42like that, it's like that's just kind of
31:44a recipe for ending up unhappy. Um
31:46because they as the scale gets bigger,
31:48things get more vague. There's so many
31:51things involved in marriage and so you
31:53know, or net worth or whatever. You you
31:55just see one little slice and you are
31:56trying to compare these two big things,
31:58but you don't even know what the full
31:59picture is. Uh, and so comparison is
32:02like the teacher of skills when it's
32:03applied narrowly, but it's the thief of
32:06joy when it's applied broadly.
32:08>> That makes sense. Yeah.
32:09>> Early on, when you said that, you know,
32:11ambitious people, they have lots of
32:12aspirations, lots of habits they want to
32:13start. I was thinking about myself and
32:15thinking there's probably 30 habits that
32:18I would like to acquire. I'd want to be
32:19better at writing. I want to be a
32:20runner. I want to be better at speaking.
32:22I want to be a better friend and be more
32:25um attentive with my friends and make
32:27sure I text them on their birthdays and
32:28sh you know
32:29>> all of these new habits that I want to
32:31pursue. How does one know which one to
32:34aim for first? Is there a framework for
32:36knowing?
32:36>> Yeah, there there's some things that you
32:38can do. I don't think um to your point
32:40earlier about uh sometimes the riskiest
32:43things just take a long time making a
32:44decision. You know, if you maybe you
32:46should just pick one and work on it and
32:47then you can get on to the next one. But
32:48I do think there's some level of
32:50strategy which is a good place to start
32:52is by asking yourself which habits are
32:54upstream from other good things
32:56happening. So for example I know that if
33:00you were maybe the maybe the question to
33:02start with is when you live a good day
33:03when you feel dialed in when things are
33:05like rolling along well for you what
33:07tends to be part of that day sleep. you
33:09know, okay, great. So, that's, you know,
33:11I would say for me, sleep, sleep is
33:12definitely one. I would say, uh, getting
33:14my workout in. And usually reading and
33:17writing are a part of it, but I think I
33:18could just boil it down to reading. If I
33:20just read like 10 pages, that often
33:23sparks the writing. So, like to me,
33:25reading is like the fuel for writing for
33:26me. So, so I could say get a workout in
33:28and read for 5 minutes or 10 minutes.
33:30Those are the two things that are part
33:31of a good day. And what happens is
33:34they're upstream from a lot of other
33:36good things happening. For example, if I
33:37get the workout in, yeah, I feel good. I
33:39get the benefits of the workout, but I
33:41also have a post-workout high for like
33:43an hour or two. So, I my focus and
33:45concentration is better. I sleep better
33:47at night because I got the workout in.
33:49Now, I'm tired.
33:50>> I tend to eat better when I work out.
33:51It's when I'm not working out that I eat
33:53terribly. That's why I don't know. It's
33:55kind of like I don't want to waste it or
33:56something. So, at no point was I trying
33:59to build better focus habits or sleep
34:01habits or nutrition habits. those just
34:02came kind of a na as a natural
34:04consequence of getting the workout in.
34:06>> So what are those things that you do
34:08that are upstream from other good things
34:10happening? I think those are good like
34:12anchor habits to start and focus on.
34:15>> But if I could add another one for
34:17myself, I would say it's a little bit of
34:19time. It's really just time to think,
34:20but it's it's time to reflect and
34:22review. There's this interesting thing
34:23that happens if you if you have a really
34:25good work ethic, if you have a strong
34:26work ethic and working hard has gotten
34:28you far in life. It kind of becomes a
34:32crutch. You know, you for for a long
34:34time I was like, if I ever had a
34:35problem, I was like, well, I'll just
34:36work my way out of it, you know? I'll
34:38just just work harder on it until I
34:39figure it out. And that that's great.
34:42That's really powerful for a lot of
34:43things. But at some point it breaks, you
34:46know, like you can maybe if you really
34:47try maybe you can work 10% harder or 20%
34:50harder, but there's some limit. But if
34:52you work on the right thing, well, you
34:54could get 100x the result or thousandx
34:55the result. And so if you just keep your
34:58head down and work hard, it's very
35:00unlikely that you'll be spending your
35:02time in the highest and best way.
35:04>> And the only way to figure that out is
35:06to have time to reflect and review. Time
35:08to think, you know, so you need enough
35:10time to think to figure out what should
35:12I be focused on next. And so I think
35:14that is it's almost reflection and
35:17review is almost like the meta habit
35:19that is above all others because if you
35:21give yourself time to reflect and review
35:23then you can troubleshoot your habits
35:24and figure out how to adjust them. I was
35:26thinking as you were saying that that
35:27that that time to reflect and review is
35:29actually also a review of are my current
35:32systems moving me closer because when
35:34when when you're talking about that I
35:36was thinking of times in my life where I
35:37was so close to like the picture and I
35:39was so in the trenches doing the thing
35:40that I hadn't come up to even say
35:42actually is there a system I could put
35:44in place to solve this problem over the
35:46next five or 10 years like for example
35:48is there a person I need to hire so
35:50actually should I go into the hiring
35:51process versus be in there fixing the
35:53problem myself should I spend 10 hours
35:55this week hire on hiring a candidate to
35:58do this or should I be doing it but
35:59sometimes you get so caught up in the
36:01trenches when especially when things are
36:02tough and and difficult and moving very
36:04quickly that you don't review your
36:06systems and also when you're talking
36:07about systems I thought about how
36:08systems sometimes expire.
36:10>> Sure. Yeah.
36:11>> Because things change.
36:12>> That's a great point and I think this is
36:14probably one of the most overlooked
36:15things with habits. A lot of the time
36:17when someone sits down and they want to
36:18build a new habit, they don't say this,
36:19but what they kind of assume is what it
36:21would mean to be successful with this
36:23habit is that I do it for the rest of my
36:25life, you know, and that if at some
36:27point I'm not doing it, then that must
36:28mean that I failed or I quit on it.
36:31>> But that's not how it is at all. Like
36:33things have a season, you know, and so
36:35habits have to change shape over time.
36:38>> Let's take my um my writing habit for
36:39example. I the habit that launched my
36:42career was I wrote a new article every
36:44Monday and Thursday and I did that for
36:45three years. So the first three years
36:47150 articles you know write twice a
36:49week. That was a great habit. They were
36:51like 2,000 word pieces or so. But then I
36:53signed the book deal for Atomic Habits.
36:54I didn't have the capacity to do that
36:56and also write the book. So that had to
36:58change. I wrote the book for like three
36:59years and then the book came out and now
37:01I write a newsletter once a week and
37:03that's much shorter. But I kind of feel
37:06like my writing habit is maintained that
37:08whole time. It just changed shape. But
37:09that's fine. It just needed to shift
37:11based on the season. But I don't know,
37:12people, they get so attached to one form
37:15of a habit sometimes that they don't
37:17realize that it's no longer serving
37:19them.
37:20>> And I think that's the one of the
37:21trickier things to give up is a habit
37:23that used to be good for you, that used
37:25to work well, but no longer serves you
37:27in your current season. It's I find that
37:29I'm kind of a slow learner with that. I
37:31guess parents can probably really relate
37:32because they're forced to basically
37:34change their goals and therefore their
37:36systems would have to I mean you're a
37:38father of three so you probably know
37:40this much better than I do but have has
37:42there been systems that you've had to
37:44sort of
37:44>> I think there's lots of uh inflection
37:46points in life so having kids is one of
37:48them uh starting a new job moving to a
37:50new city you know it can be big stuff
37:52like that I just talked to a mother who
37:54her kids moved out so she's now an empty
37:56neester you know she's like last 25
37:57years I've been parenting all these kids
37:58and now finally they're all out, but it
38:01feels in some sense it almost feels like
38:03a loss of identity. You know, you're
38:04like, I I thought I was one thing and
38:06now, you know, feels like things have
38:07shifted. Um, but also it just signals an
38:10inflection point in life and a new
38:11season that you're in. And when your
38:12seasons change, your habits often need
38:14to change with it. And you talk about
38:16this um four burners theory which I
38:18guess dovetailes into what we're talking
38:19about here where you you use this to
38:22kind of think about what habits to
38:24pursue in any season of life but also a
38:26phrase that I've heard um so often
38:28specifically from mothers on the show
38:31comes to mind which is that you can't
38:33have it all at the same time
38:34>> and I've heard that I think four or five
38:36times different mothers in particular
38:37which is I mean says something about
38:38society yeah have said to me that
38:40they've had to realize that they can't
38:41have it all at the same time
38:42>> for sure. So this is not my concept.
38:45This this idea that I came across. It's
38:47called the four burners theory. And it
38:49breaks life into these four burners on a
38:51stove. So you have work and career as
38:53one. You have family, friends, and then
38:55personal health or you know uh yourself
38:58basically as the other. The idea is that
39:00for the burners to really be going well,
39:02you can't have all four on at the same
39:04time.
39:04>> And burning stove.
39:06>> The stove. Yeah. Yeah. The stove top. So
39:07you you have you can choose you could
39:09have three going on at kind of like a
39:11mid level, but if you really want them
39:13to do well, you can only have two on at
39:14the same time. And you know, who knows?
39:17I I don't know if it's true or not or
39:19whatever, but it's an interesting idea.
39:20And what it does is it gets you to
39:22realize, yeah, a fundamental part of
39:24life is trade-offs. And you cannot be
39:26good at everything at the same time. So
39:28this is true across projects. If you
39:30choose try to do seven things at once,
39:31spreading yourself thin in seven
39:33different ways, very hard to be
39:34excellent. For me, what I think about is
39:37life has a series of seasons and life
39:40has a series of sequences. So, let's say
39:43it's not it's not always exactly 10
39:45years, but let's say the big movements
39:47in life are roughly 10-year buckets,
39:49right? So, like for me, building my
39:50first business, that was kind of like a
39:5110-year thing and eventually led to the
39:53launch of Atomic Habits. You maybe get
39:55five or six of those in your adult life.
39:57Some of those things make sense to do in
39:59a different order than others. Like if
40:02you want to travel the world and see a
40:04bunch of places and party in a visa,
40:05you're probably not going to do that in
40:06your 60s, you know? Like I mean, you
40:08can. There's no nobody's saying you
40:09can't, but some things are probably
40:11better sequenced in other, you know, in
40:13other spots. Obviously, there's, you
40:15know, especially for women, there's a
40:16certain limit on if you want to have a
40:17family, what decades that happens in.
40:20So, yeah, it's just uh it's just a
40:21matter of sequencing and prioritization.
40:23If you look at the like tapestry of your
40:25life, what do you want the big movements
40:26to be and where do those seasons need to
40:28slot in? Um, yeah, it's a it's a that
40:32there is no right answer, but it's
40:34interesting. As soon as you realize it's
40:36a finite number, and as soon as you
40:38realize that trade-offs are always going
40:39to be a reality,
40:41>> you have to deal with that in some way.
40:42Um, I've decided that right now while my
40:44kids are young, like I'm I'm going to
40:46turn the career burner down. And that's
40:47fine. It's not going to be how it was
40:49for the last 10 years. But that's okay
40:51because they're only five once, you
40:52know? They're only turning six once.
40:54They only go to second grade once. And I
40:56I want to be there for all that. So, um,
40:59there are always trade-offs.
41:00>> I think that that sequence point is
41:02super super interesting. It got me
41:03thinking because you're right, there are
41:04sort of some constraints whether they're
41:06biological constraints where in the case
41:07of your kids like just natural
41:09constraints that mean this this season
41:12can only happen now here, right?
41:14>> Yeah. There's also some things like um,
41:16you know, both of us are fairly young
41:17entrepreneurs. I'm so glad that I
41:20started a business in my 20s rather than
41:22my 50s. Um, doesn't mean you can't do it
41:24in your 50s. There's no nobody's saying
41:25you can't. It's just that it makes
41:27things a lot easier for the next decade.
41:29You know, it's easier for me to be there
41:30for my kids now because I have control
41:32of my time because I did the business
41:34part in the previous decade. And so take
41:36the risks.
41:37>> Yeah. And and that doesn't mean it's
41:38always going to work out or whatever. It
41:39doesn't mean that you're going to be
41:40able to perfectly plan it all, but you
41:43just see how the sequences can um can
41:45stack up in that way.
41:46>> And how important do you think when
41:47we're talking about habits, do you think
41:48repetition is? because there's so many
41:50of these sort of well-known concepts or
41:54frameworks in habit formation. One of
41:56them is that habits take roughly 66
41:58days. One of them is that it's about
42:00repetition. Does repetition really
42:02matter?
42:02>> It definitely does. I mean, repetition
42:04is how habits form. Uh the 66 days
42:06number comes from one study that came
42:08out that found that on average it took
42:10about 66 days to build a habit. If you
42:12look at the study, the range is pretty
42:14wide. So, if you pick something really
42:16simple like drinking a glass of water um
42:18at lunch each day, that might only take
42:21two or three weeks to form. If you look
42:23at something more complicated like um
42:25going for a run after work every day,
42:27that might take seven or eight or nine
42:28months to form. And so, I don't know
42:30that 66 days really tells you anything.
42:33It doesn't it doesn't tell you that this
42:35is how long it's going to take for your
42:36habit to stick. I mean, it the range is
42:37wide. Sometimes when people ask me how
42:40long does it take to form a habit, my
42:42answer is forever. Because if you stop
42:45doing it, then it's no longer a habit.
42:47And what I'm kind of getting at with
42:49that is that habits are not a finish
42:51line to be crossed. They're a lifestyle
42:53to be lived, you know? And so we
42:55approach our habits as if it's a finish
42:57line. Oh, let me do this 30-day cleanse
42:58and then I'll be healthy. Let me do this
43:0090-day sprint and then the product will
43:01be shipped. I won't have to worry about
43:02it anymore, you know? And it's like most
43:05things in life, especially the big
43:06important things, they're endless.
43:08They're endless battles, you know. So,
43:10just because you went to the gym
43:12yesterday earns you no bo bonus points
43:14for tomorrow. Like, you still have to
43:15show up tomorrow. Just because you were
43:17a good spouse yesterday earns you no
43:18bonus points for tomorrow. You still
43:20have to be loving and caring again. Um,
43:22and so all the things that really matter
43:25are endless battles. And it's not about
43:27crossing a finish line. It's about
43:28living that kind of lifestyle. And so,
43:30yes, it is true that repetition matters.
43:33And yes, it is true that the habits will
43:35become more seamless and automatic and
43:38maybe a little less effortful as you
43:40repeat them more, but that doesn't mean
43:42that you'll never have to think about
43:43them or, you know, worry about them
43:44again.
43:45>> Do you think much about what's going on
43:46in the brain when repetition occurs?
43:48Like, what is it that's making it
43:49easier? If I', if I've been on a on a
43:51roll with the gym, I've been going for
43:5260 days in a row. Why does it feel
43:54easier on day 61?
43:57That's a tricky question because um if
44:00you were to talk to an academic and they
44:02would tell you like a habit is this
44:04automatic non-concious behavior. Really
44:06quick simple things like brushing your
44:08teeth, tying your shoes, every time you
44:10pick up a pair of barbecue tongs, you
44:12got to tap them together twice, you
44:13know, like stuff that you don't even
44:14really think about. Okay, that's actual
44:17habitual behavior. But if I were to ask
44:20you, what are some habits you're trying
44:21to build? you would say, "I'm trying to
44:23go to the gym four days a week or I'm
44:24trying to write every morning or I'm
44:25trying to meditate, you know, five days
44:27a week or whatever." And I know what you
44:29mean when you say that. You mean I want
44:31it to be this routine, this practice
44:33that I do consistently. But like writing
44:36every day is never going to be mindless
44:38the way that brushing your teeth is. You
44:39know, going to the gym is not going to
44:41be automatic the way that tying your
44:42shoes might be. And so the things that
44:45we there's a little bit of sloppiness in
44:47the word habits and how we use it in
44:49life. It's not they're not automatic
44:51mindless routines most of the time. Most
44:53of the things that we want to be habits
44:56are not like reflexes. They're routines
44:58and rituals that we do consistently.
45:00>> So having said that, it is true that
45:03after you've gone to the gym for a month
45:04or two, it does start to get easier. And
45:06I think there's a number of forces that
45:07kind of work in your favor there. One is
45:10you figured a lot out about uh what it
45:13takes to get into the gym. What time am
45:15I going? What route do I take? How do I
45:17pack my bag? Do I need to bring a water
45:19bottle or is there a water fountain at
45:20the gym? Like all those sorts of things
45:22are little one-time costs that you got
45:24to figure out early on that once you're
45:26into a pattern, you already know them.
45:28>> You know, the water bottle thing sounds
45:30like a small thing. I heard from someone
45:31who said, "I always forget to bring my
45:32water bottle and they don't have water
45:33fountains at this gym." So like I I
45:35sometimes I skip the workout because of
45:37that. You know, it's like it's
45:38remarkable how little friction it takes
45:39to pull us off course. Mhm.
45:41>> And so figuring out all of those things
45:43is something that once you're a month or
45:45two in, you've crossed all you've, you
45:47know, you've fought all those battles
45:48and now you know how to do it. So that
45:50makes it easier. The other thing is you
45:52start to build friendships, start to
45:53build connections, you start to know the
45:55people there, you feel comfortable
45:56there. There's this concept Steven
45:58Presfield talks about where u you know
46:00if you have a wolf and it's roaming
46:02around uh eventually it starts to feel
46:04like it has its territory and early on
46:07in a process a creative process writing
46:09a book or whatever you go into the
46:10office the first time to write the first
46:11chapter of the book and you kind of feel
46:13uncomfortable it feels like it's not you
46:14yet you go to the gym on the first day
46:16you feel like people are judging you do
46:18I look stupid I don't know how to do
46:19this but after a while it becomes your
46:22territory it's just like the wolf it
46:24starts to feel like your home court and
46:26so That familiarity I think also makes
46:28it much easier to stick to the habits,
46:30you know, once you start to feel
46:31comfortable there and that takes a
46:32little bit of time. And then the last
46:34piece is identity. The more that you
46:37start to follow this habit, the more you
46:39repeat a habit, the more you reinforce
46:41being that type of person, the more you
46:43start to have that element of your
46:44story. I think this is one of the most
46:46important things for building habits and
46:48getting habits to stick, which is how
46:50your habits reinforce your desired
46:52identity. We often start by asking what
46:55do I wish to achieve? But I think what
46:56we really should start with is who do I
46:58wish to become? What are my actions
47:00reinforcing? What are my actions taking
47:01me closer toward? In a sense, every
47:04action you take is like a vote for the
47:06type of person you wish to become. So,
47:09no, doing one push-up does not transform
47:11your body, but it does cast a vote for
47:14I'm the type of person who doesn't miss
47:15workouts. And no, writing one sentence
47:18does not finish a novel, but it does
47:19cast a vote for I'm a writer. And no,
47:22sending one bit of positive feedback
47:23does not make you like the world's best
47:25leader, but it does cast a vote for I'm
47:26the type of leader who cares about their
47:28teammates. And individually, those are
47:31small things, but collectively you build
47:33up this body of evidence for being that
47:35kind of person.
47:36>> It's a little bit [clears throat]
47:37different than what you often hear. Like
47:38you often hear people say something like
47:40um fake it till you make it.
47:42>> And I don't necessarily have anything
47:44wrong with fake it till you make it.
47:45Like it's um asking you to believe
47:46something positive about yourself. But
47:49behavior and beliefs are a two-way
47:51street. And so what you believe
47:53influences the actions you will take.
47:55And the actions you take also influences
47:57what you will believe. And my
47:59encouragement, my suggestion is to start
48:02with the action. To let the behavior
48:03lead the way. To make one sales call or
48:06meditate for one minute or do one
48:07push-up and let that in that moment be
48:09evidence that you were that type of
48:11person. You know, if you go outside
48:12today and you shoot a basketball for
48:14five minutes, you don't instantly think,
48:15"Oh, I'm a basketball player." But if
48:18you do it every day for next three
48:19months or six months or a year, at some
48:21point you cross this invisible threshold
48:23where you have to admit, I guess playing
48:25basketball is like kind of an important
48:26part of who I am. You know, I guess it's
48:28part of my identity. And once you adopt
48:30a habit as part of your story, once it
48:32becomes part of how you see yourself,
48:34it's not just like I need to go for a
48:36run. It's like I am a runner, you know,
48:37I go I do this because this is part of
48:39who I am. Then you'll fight to maintain
48:41the habit, right? Like then then it
48:43becomes easier for it to stick. And so
48:45the connection between habits and
48:46identity I think is ultimately how you
48:48really get habits to stick for the long
48:50run.
48:51>> It reminds me of a study I was reading
48:52recently that said if you speak to
48:54someone in terms of giving them an
48:56identity versus
48:59using a word as an adjective the
49:00behavior occurs. So an example would be
49:02if I you do something for me and I say
49:04do you know what James you are a kind
49:06person
49:07>> in the studies people become more kind.
49:09But if I say that was kind
49:11>> or that action was kind people are less
49:13kind. So if I if I can give you feedback
49:16that embodies your identity, then you're
49:18more like likely for that behavior to
49:19occur. So with my team, and this is
49:21maybe giving a bit of the game away,
49:23>> I will often refer to them as an
49:25identity. I will say you are an
49:27innovator.
49:28>> You are an experimental because from the
49:30studies I've read that increases the
49:31probability that they embody that
49:33identity.
49:34>> There's another study that um did it for
49:36voting. So people were more likely to go
49:38and vote if you said like I am a voter.
49:39You got them to identify as I'm a voter
49:42rather than are you voting today? Um,
49:43and so same same thing. There's an
49:45example in Atomic Habits I talk about.
49:47Imagine two people who are trying to
49:48quit smoking, you know, and so the first
49:50person gets offered a cigarette and they
49:52say, "Oh, no thanks. I'm trying not to
49:53smoke." Um, and the second person gets
49:55offered and they say, "Oh, no thanks.
49:56I'm not a smoker." And so the first
49:58person is trying to resist something
50:00that they still see themselves as, but
50:02the second person no longer sees
50:04themselves as the type of person who
50:06smokes. And um yeah, some of the
50:08evidence and research suggests that once
50:10you adopt those identities, it's it's
50:12easier for you to stick to the behavior.
50:13>> Reminds me of the research from Leon
50:15Festinger, the guy that came up with the
50:16term cognitive dissonance.
50:18>> The way that I understand the concept of
50:20cognitive dissonance is that if I have a
50:21perceived identity of myself and
50:23something external threatens that or
50:24challenges it, we're not good at living
50:27in contradiction. I'm not good at So,
50:28for example, I'm a an accountant right
50:31now and I hear that AI is doing
50:34accountancy work amazingly well. Now,
50:35I've invested 10 years in that
50:37accountancy degree. I see myself as a
50:39great accountant.
50:40My my my sort of initial reaction will
50:43probably be to either dismiss my current
50:45identity as a great accountant that
50:47that's going to have a great career in
50:48the future or to dismiss the AI. And he
50:52talks, well, people that have studied
50:53his work talk about how we're very poor
50:56at being able to hold two contradictory
50:58things to be true at the same time. So,
51:00um we tend to protect our identity.
51:02>> Yes. Um, there's something incredibly
51:04powerful about this that also ties into
51:06habits, which is that a lot of our
51:09identity, not not the whole thing, but
51:10large portions of our identity are tied
51:12to our relationships. You know, I'm a
51:14father, I'm a, you know, husband, I'm a,
51:16you know, and so like it's the
51:17connection that we have with others. Our
51:18social bonds influence the picture that
51:21we have of ourselves.
51:23>> This is something that widely influences
51:25our habits, you know. So, we are all
51:27part of multiple groups. Sometimes that
51:29group is large, like what it means to be
51:31American or what it means to be British.
51:32Sometimes that group is small, like what
51:34it means to be a neighbor on your street
51:36or a member of this family or a member
51:38at the local CrossFit gym. But all of
51:40the groups that you belong to, large and
51:42small, have a set of shared expectations
51:45for how you act. Have a set of social
51:47norms for what you do in that group. And
51:50when your habits go with the grain of
51:52the expectations of the group, they're
51:54pretty attractive. You know, like you
51:55want to stick to them. You get praised
51:56and rewarded for it. You fit in. And
51:58when they go against the grain of the
52:00expectations of the group, they're kind
52:02of unattractive. You get criticized and
52:04it doesn't feel good. And so if people
52:06have to choose between, I have habits
52:09that um I want, but I'm cast out, I'm
52:13ostracized, I'm criticized, or I have
52:16habits that I don't really love, but I
52:18fit in, I belong, I'm part of something.
52:20Most of the time, the desire to belong
52:23overpowers the desire to improve. And so
52:26you want to do something different, but
52:28you also know you're going to be heavily
52:29criticized for it or you're going to at
52:30least add friction to your
52:32relationships. And we don't want to live
52:34with that dissonance. That dissonance of
52:36I could have this, but I also create
52:39friction here. One of the lessons I
52:41think one of the big takeaways if you
52:43want to build better habits and get
52:44habits to stick particularly for the
52:46long run is you want to join groups
52:49where your desired behavior is the
52:51normal behavior. join groups where you
52:53can rise together, where the people that
52:55you're surrounded by have the type of
52:57habits that you want to have.
52:59>> It reminds me of this um this thing that
53:02appeared in Jeff Bezos's shareholder
53:04letter about resisting the equilibrium.
53:06>> H I I didn't know about this. Go ahead.
53:08>> So, in Jeff Bezos's shareholder letter,
53:09he writes to shareholders that when
53:11referring to Amazon's ability and desire
53:14and need to innovate through the future,
53:15he says he makes a comparison to Richard
53:17Dawkins book called the I think it's a
53:20blind clock maker. Uh yeah the yeah
53:22blind watchman
53:23>> blind watchman. Yeah yeah yeah yeah and
53:25says that essentially all living
53:26organisms live in this constant battle
53:28to resist their equilibrium and actually
53:29death itself is when we become our
53:32environment because right now me and you
53:34have huge amount of energy expenditure
53:36to be different from our environment in
53:38terms of temperature in terms of acidity
53:40etc. And he he's making the comparison
53:42which sounded a lot what like what you
53:44just said that if you want to that all
53:47living organisms are in this constant
53:49battle to be different from our
53:51environment. Um and that the more
53:54different our environment is the harder
53:56the fight. So if I go to the desert my
53:58body has to put put out even more energy
54:01to be a different temperature to be a
54:03different sort of acidity than the
54:04environment. But if I want to make my
54:06life easier and make that fight easier,
54:08then go into an environment where my
54:10environment is the same as my internal
54:12my internal state.
54:13>> That's great. The I think that punchline
54:14of the more different your environment
54:16is from the habits that you want to
54:18build or from whatever equilibrium
54:20you're trying to achieve, the harder you
54:21will have to fight to maintain.
54:23>> And that is a fight that you can do for
54:27I don't know a day, a week, a month, but
54:29it's some limited amount of time. At
54:31some point it just is draining to try to
54:34grind against the environment all the
54:35time. Sometimes I view environment both
54:38physical and social almost like a form
54:41of gravity. You know, like the the
54:44physical environment that we're in right
54:45now, okay, that's always nudging you in
54:48certain directions. Like I'm I'm sitting
54:50in this chair right now talking to you.
54:51I could be sitting anywhere else, but I
54:53would have to sit on the floor, right?
54:54The the environment of the chair is
54:56ushering me to this spot. It's almost
54:58like a form of gravity pulling me here
55:00rather than getting me to go somewhere
55:01else. When we leave this room, if I
55:04wanted, I could try to do something
55:05crazy and break through a wall or climb
55:07through the ceiling or whatever, but I'm
55:08going to go through the door because
55:09that's where the environment is
55:11naturally nudging me toward. It's the
55:13where that behavior happens easily. And
55:15all of our spaces are like that. You're
55:17always being kind of pulled toward what
55:19is natural and easy and consistent in
55:21that environment. So, how can you prime
55:23your environment to make those the
55:24things you want to do? That's for
55:25physical environment. Social environment
55:27is the same. You know, it's all you're
55:29always kind of being pulled toward what
55:31the behaviors are that are natural
55:33there. What are the social norms? What
55:34are the things that people get praised
55:36and rewarded for? What are what is the
55:37culture typically calling you to do? And
55:41that's where I think the answer is you
55:43want to surround yourself with groups
55:46who have the behaviors you want to have.
55:48Join groups where your desired behavior
55:50is normal. If it's normal in that group,
55:52then you can rise together. So, I mean
55:54that that must mean getting rid of
55:55certain people in one's life. And
55:57sometimes those people are hard to get
55:58rid of because their families, their
55:59moms, their dads.
56:00>> Sure. And I, you know, I'm a little uh
56:03sometimes you hear people say things
56:04like, "Fire your friends," you know, or
56:06whatever. Like, and I I I'm not I'm not
56:08all the way there. Uh I I think that
56:10yes, it is true. Sometimes you have um
56:13an extreme circumstance where it's a
56:15particularly toxic person or something
56:16like that. And yeah, like you know, you
56:18probably maybe should not be around them
56:19and that those can lead to very hard
56:21decisions. But I would say for the
56:22majority of life and the majority of
56:24your relationships, what we're really
56:26talking about here is not getting rid of
56:28relationships. We're talking about
56:30finding specific places where that habit
56:32can thrive. So here are some examples.
56:35There's a number of studies that have
56:36shown that it tends to be easier to
56:38build a new habit in a new environment.
56:40So for example, if you Well, first let
56:43me back up. There's an interesting way
56:45to define what a habit is, which is that
56:47it is a behavior that is tied to a
56:50particular context. So, for example,
56:52your habit of watching Netflix might be
56:55tied to the context of your couch at 7
56:57p.m. And whenever you walk into your
56:59living room and you're by your couch and
57:01it's in the evening, you're kind of
57:02naturally being pulled toward picking up
57:04the remote and doing that because that's
57:05the context the habit happens in. So, if
57:08you want to build a new habit, and
57:09again, these studies have found that it
57:11tends to be easier to build a new habit
57:13in a new environment. Well, let's say
57:15you want to start a habit of journaling.
57:16Well, you walk into your living room in
57:18the evening and you sit down on the
57:19couch and you're like, I'm going to
57:20start journaling. But you're naturally,
57:22you know, your brain is kind of like,
57:23well, it's time to pick up the remote
57:24and turn on the TV. That doesn't always
57:27mean that you need a brand new space,
57:29like a new building or a new room to do
57:30every habit in. But you could do
57:32something like you could get a chair and
57:34put it in the corner of the room and
57:35that becomes the journaling chair and
57:37the only thing that you do when you sit
57:38in that chair is you journal for five
57:40minutes. So now you have a new context
57:43that is tied to the behavior that you
57:45want to perform. And in the social
57:47sense, so this is what we were talking
57:49about previously. You want to be able to
57:50create a space that is a safe place for
57:52that envir for that habit to live or for
57:54that habit to thrive. say um sometimes
57:58there those spaces are ready made like
58:00uh let's say you want to do yoga four
58:02days a week but you look around your
58:04family or your friends in your apartment
58:05that you're living nobody else is
58:06interested they don't want to do it too
58:08you do it in the living room you kind of
58:09get made fun of or you're stepping on
58:10other people's space they're like I'm
58:12trying to do stuff in here too you know
58:13it's just kind of inconvenient well you
58:15can go to a yoga studio and that's a
58:17place where for that hour you can be
58:18surrounded by a group where your desired
58:20behavior is normal you don't have to
58:22fire any of your friends um and you can
58:24just go to the place where that happens
58:25that can thrive. And I think each habit
58:28likes to have that. It likes to have
58:29somewhere where it can exist in a way
58:31that it's going to be supported or in a
58:32way where the environment makes it easy.
58:35Sometimes the environment is readyade
58:37like that. Other times it's not. So for
58:39me, one of the most useful things that I
58:41did in my entrepreneurial career, I had
58:44I had no entrepreneurs in my family, no
58:45authors. So I had this thing that I kind
58:48of wanted to do, but I I didn't have
58:49anybody close to me that I could like
58:51look to. first six months that I was an
58:53entrepreneur, I sent like 300 cold
58:54emails just to other people that were
58:56like a year or two ahead of me. Someone
58:58who seemed like you're actually doing
58:59this thing where, you know, you've got
59:01this online audience and you're you're
59:02writing about stuff you like. Um maybe
59:0630 people got back to me. I did like a
59:08little, you know, Zoom call or whatever
59:09and, you know, we chatted and connected
59:11and then I met some of them at a
59:13conference like six months later. So I
59:14was six months in. I knew like maybe 10
59:16people that I had met in person and I
59:18had like 30 that I had reached out to.
59:20So now it feels like okay at least I
59:23know a couple people who have done this
59:24thing and I started hosting these
59:25retreats every once or twice a year I'd
59:28get six or eight authors together and
59:30I'd say let's just rent an Airbnb. We'll
59:32split the cost and we can talk about how
59:33to build an audience and how to grow
59:35your you know email list and how to
59:37write a book and launch it and you know
59:38all the stuff that we were kind of
59:40focused on. It was almost always like
59:42the best six month uh best weekend of my
59:44year. Um because I would have six months
59:46worth of stuff that I need to execute on
59:48after that was done.
59:50>> That's kind of like going to a yoga
59:52studio for yoga, but you had to create
59:54the space. I was always worried that I
59:56was going to look like some dork, you
59:57know, and like invite everybody and they
59:58would all say no or whatever. But
1:00:00everybody wants the same thing. You
1:00:02know, they're all waiting for somebody
1:00:03to create the space for like-minded
1:00:04people to get together. So sometimes you
1:00:06need enough courage to create the space
1:00:08yourself. But the punch line is the
1:00:10same, which is you're trying to surround
1:00:12yourself with people where your desired
1:00:14behavior is the normal behavior.
1:00:17I've had so many founders speak to me
1:00:19and say, "Why didn't this particular ad
1:00:21that I ran on this platform work for
1:00:23me?" Maybe the copy wasn't good. The
1:00:25creative wasn't strong. But usually the
1:00:26problem is they're not having the right
1:00:27conversation because that ad never
1:00:29reached the right person. And if you're
1:00:31in B2B marketing, that is much of the
1:00:33game. And this is where LinkedIn ads
1:00:35solves that problem for you. Their
1:00:37targeting is ridiculously specific. You
1:00:39can target by job title, seniority,
1:00:42company size, industry, and even
1:00:44someone's skill set. And their network
1:00:46includes over a billion professionals.
1:00:48About 130 million of them are decision
1:00:51makers. So when you use LinkedIn ads,
1:00:53you're putting your brand in front of
1:00:54the right people. And LinkedIn ads also
1:00:56drive the highest B2B return on ad spend
1:00:59across all ad networks in my experience.
1:01:01If you want to give them a try, head
1:01:03over to linkedin.com/diary.
1:01:06And when you spend $250 on your first
1:01:08LinkedIn ads campaign, you'll get an
1:01:10extra $250 credit from me for the next
1:01:14one. That's linkedin.com/diary.
1:01:17Terms and conditions apply.
1:01:20I'm thinking about all the people that
1:01:21um are currently sat in a in a job that
1:01:23they don't like. They're sat in the a
1:01:25job in the middle of a big city. They're
1:01:27miserable. They want to go do something
1:01:28else. They want to go be an author. They
1:01:30want to go follow in your footsteps.
1:01:32They want to build a business in a media
1:01:35business for example, but they're so far
1:01:37away from that. They're held in place by
1:01:38their parents' expectations. They're
1:01:40held in place by a mortgage and all the
1:01:42things that you know, life when they get
1:01:44home every day. They're tired. Really,
1:01:46really tired. So, it's remained a dream.
1:01:49You must have so many of those people
1:01:50that write to you that message you
1:01:52>> [snorts]
1:01:52>> um because of what you've you've
1:01:54produced and because of the the content
1:01:55that you make. What do you say to those
1:01:58people?
1:02:00Where where does one one such person
1:02:02start?
1:02:02>> One is I don't think it serves you in
1:02:05any way to just like kind of wallow in
1:02:06how hard it is or to talk about how
1:02:08tough talking complaining about how hard
1:02:10it is just makes it harder,
1:02:12>> you know?
1:02:12>> So the the act of complaining makes a
1:02:15bad situation worse. The act of
1:02:17emphasizing the things that are going
1:02:18well or trying to take it's kind of this
1:02:21endless game of trying to take your
1:02:23current advantages and gain new
1:02:25advantages. So like early on most people
1:02:29don't have many advantages. Like I
1:02:30didn't know anybody in the industry. I
1:02:32didn't have any money. I didn't have any
1:02:33experience. But the one advantage that I
1:02:35did have was I had time. And so I could
1:02:38use that time to try to gain new
1:02:40advantages. So in my case, I used the
1:02:42time to write two articles a week. And I
1:02:44did that for two years. I did like kind
1:02:46of freelance gigs on the side to pay the
1:02:48bills and stuff. And eventually that's
1:02:50how I built the audience. And then once
1:02:52I had the audience two years later, then
1:02:54I I had a new advantage, right? I not
1:02:55only had time, I also had an email list.
1:02:58Now I can go from there and I could get
1:02:59a book deal and then I have a new
1:03:00advantage. I have a book deal and then
1:03:01you know you just kind of like
1:03:03continually use your current advantages
1:03:04to gain new advantages.
1:03:06>> And um I just talked about this for
1:03:08about 20 seconds. That was about seven
1:03:10years of my life that the span of all
1:03:12that, right? It goes it goes slower than
1:03:14what you want. But um it's kind of just
1:03:16that that endless game.
1:03:18>> It goes slower than you would want.
1:03:20Makes me think about this whole uh idea
1:03:22of being 1% better every day.
1:03:24>> Yeah. Yeah.
1:03:25>> What are the most sort of pertinent
1:03:26parts of of understanding that graph?
1:03:29>> Two things stand out. All right. So,
1:03:30first is this is this charts showing
1:03:33what this is showing is if you get 1%
1:03:35better each day for a year. Okay? So,
1:03:371.01 to the 365th power, you get 37
1:03:41times better by the end of the year.
1:03:42Right? So, that's this curve. If you get
1:03:441% worse, 0.99 to the 3665th power, you
1:03:49drive yourself almost all the way down
1:03:50zero. Now a chart like this is just
1:03:53compound interest, right? This is just a
1:03:55compounding curve. And real life is not
1:03:57exactly like compound interest. You
1:03:59know, your habits are not exactly like
1:04:00this mathematical formula. But I think
1:04:02this chart does a good job of
1:04:04encapsulating what the process of
1:04:06behavior change feels like. You know
1:04:08what it's like to try to get a little
1:04:09bit better each day because two things
1:04:11are true. These are the two things that
1:04:12stand out. First, any compounding curve,
1:04:16the hallmark of any compounding process
1:04:17is all the greatest returns are delayed.
1:04:20Right? you are 80% of the way through
1:04:22this curve before it really starts to
1:04:23take off. So all the greatest returns
1:04:25are delayed. The early stuff doesn't
1:04:26feel that impressive. The second is the
1:04:29on day one the separation between 0.99
1:04:32and 1.01 is very small, right? 1% better
1:04:36or 1% worse is very minor.
1:04:39>> So on any given day, it's very easy to
1:04:42dismiss, you know, what is the
1:04:43difference between eating something
1:04:44healthy for lunch or eating something
1:04:46unhealthy. Today, basically nothing.
1:04:48Your body looks the same in the mirror
1:04:49at the end of the night. The scale
1:04:50hasn't changed. You know, there's no
1:04:51evidence. What is the difference between
1:04:54the person who reads for 10 minutes
1:04:55today and the person who doesn't
1:04:57basically nothing to reading for 10
1:04:59minutes does not make you a genius. But
1:05:02the person who always goes to bed a
1:05:04little bit smarter than they were when
1:05:05they woke up. The person who always
1:05:07takes a little bit of time each day to
1:05:08learn something new. Yeah. Two or five
1:05:10or 10 years later, like that's a
1:05:11meaningful difference in wisdom and
1:05:13insight. And so you see this same
1:05:15pattern again and again throughout life,
1:05:17which is what starts out small and it's
1:05:19pretty insignificant, easy to dismiss on
1:05:21a daily basis, it compounds, it
1:05:24multiplies, it improves over time. And
1:05:26so the effects of your habits are
1:05:28delayed. Time will magnify whatever you
1:05:31feed it. So if you have good habits,
1:05:33time becomes your ally. And every day
1:05:35that goes by, you put yourself in a
1:05:36stronger position. If you have bad
1:05:38habits, time becomes your enemy. And
1:05:40every day that goes by, you dig the hole
1:05:41a little bit deeper. And so the real
1:05:43lesson of a chart like this, the real
1:05:45lesson of getting 1% better every day is
1:05:48not to get wrapped up in the number.
1:05:50It's not like, oh, is it a 1%
1:05:52improvement or 1.6% or whatever. It's
1:05:54not about that. It's an attitude. It's
1:05:56an approach. It's a focus, an emphasis
1:05:59on trajectory rather than position.
1:06:03>> You know, there's a lot of discussion
1:06:04about position in life. How much money's
1:06:06in my bank account? What's the number on
1:06:08the scale? What's the stock price? What
1:06:09are the quarterly earnings? We have all
1:06:11these measurements and metrics for
1:06:13assessing our current position. And then
1:06:15if the position isn't what we want it to
1:06:17be, we get frustrated or we feel guilty
1:06:20or we judge ourselves or we get annoyed
1:06:22or whatever. And what I'm encouraging is
1:06:24to say, listen, just for a minute, let's
1:06:26stop worrying so much about our current
1:06:28position and instead focus a little bit
1:06:31more on our current trajectory. Am I
1:06:33getting 1% better or 1% worse? Is the
1:06:36arrow pointed up and to the right or
1:06:37have we flatlined? So if you're on a
1:06:39good trajectory, all you need is time.
1:06:42[clears throat]
1:06:42>> This is this has almost become a
1:06:44religious belief. I because I think for
1:06:46everything you've said, it has to become
1:06:47a religious belief because the results
1:06:49are hard to see in the near term. But um
1:06:51it is most certainly a religious belief
1:06:53in our team.
1:06:54>> I have multiple readers who got tattoos
1:06:55of it, which I was not expecting. I drew
1:06:57this on an index card and now it's on
1:06:59somebody's body. [laughter]
1:07:01>> Yeah, that was that was definitely
1:07:03surprising. And it needs that religion
1:07:05because that first part where you you're
1:07:08doing something and there's no progress,
1:07:10there's no evidence of progress.
1:07:11>> There is something tricky about this
1:07:12that I think is important. So we all we
1:07:15all have made this mistake before which
1:07:17is you can make 1% improvements that
1:07:19accumulate and you can make 1%
1:07:21improvements that evaporate. Right? You
1:07:23can spend your time time on trivial
1:07:24stuff meaningful. You know see it can be
1:07:26meaningful small changes or it can be
1:07:28meaningless small changes. And so how do
1:07:30you decide the difference between the
1:07:32two? That's kind of tricky and I I don't
1:07:34know that you can always get it
1:07:35perfectly right, but to me the dividing
1:07:38line is does this action accumulate into
1:07:40something larger or not? You know, you
1:07:42can you can spend your time doing all
1:07:44small stuff, whatever day in and day
1:07:45out, but are you building towards
1:07:46something bigger?
1:07:47>> And so, in a lot of ways, I think the
1:07:50two time frames that matter most in life
1:07:52are 10 years and one hour.
1:07:55>> You know, 10 years is just shorthand for
1:07:57like what's the big meaningful stuff
1:07:58you're working toward. You think about
1:08:00most of the stuff that people really
1:08:01care, the meaningful movements in life,
1:08:04most of them are multi-year things, you
1:08:06know, build a business that you're proud
1:08:07of, raising a successful family, you
1:08:10know, having a a happy marriage, getting
1:08:12in the best shape of your life, what
1:08:13whatever it is, contributing to some
1:08:15cause that you care about, like they're
1:08:16usually big multi-year, sometimes
1:08:18multi-deade things. So 10 years is
1:08:21shorthand for that. But if you can do
1:08:23one thing each day that's going to serve
1:08:26you well in 10 years, if you can find
1:08:28one hour sometime today to do something
1:08:30that's going to pay off in a decade, you
1:08:32usually don't even need to wait 10 years
1:08:34for it to really start to show up. You
1:08:35know, usually you get two or three or
1:08:36four years into that and you're like,
1:08:37"Wow, I can't believe how this stuff's
1:08:39accumulating already." And it makes me
1:08:41think again about your idea of systems
1:08:42versus goals because the most
1:08:44exceptional founders I know they'll
1:08:46think about what can I do in the next
1:08:47hour so that in 10 years time we're in a
1:08:49different place which again it sounds
1:08:52I've said this a few times but one of
1:08:53the most important things in business I
1:08:55mean the definition of the word company
1:08:56is hiring. So most I think all nearly
1:08:58all problems I face in business are a
1:09:00people problem.
1:09:02>> It's like a people mistake that I have
1:09:03or haven't you know made yet. So the
1:09:06further I've got in my career, I've
1:09:07started to think that actually most of
1:09:09my the next hour of my life should be
1:09:12working on people because that corrects
1:09:14what happens in 10 years time. Like if
1:09:16we want to go want my company to go
1:09:18public in 10 years time, in the next
1:09:19hour I should really be thinking about a
1:09:21hiring process which will find the CFO
1:09:23which will build the business.
1:09:24>> And here you are talking to me,
1:09:25>> right? No, but I'm learning. But and I'm
1:09:28going to go take it out and I'm going to
1:09:29go. No, but it's really it's really
1:09:30useful speaking to you about this
1:09:31because it's given me the wording to
1:09:36which will create memorability which
1:09:37will create the repetitions and the
1:09:38habits if you know what I'm saying. Is
1:09:39it on straight? And I I wasn't thinking
1:09:42in terms of systems and goals. I was I I
1:09:44always refer to it with people. I say
1:09:46what's furthest upstream.
1:09:47>> Yeah.
1:09:48>> And this can also be what we're saying
1:09:49about sleep. And I I see hiring for
1:09:51example in business or actually
1:09:52generally in your personal life
1:09:54selecting people as the single most
1:09:56important factor to everything that
1:09:58happens downstream.
1:09:59>> Relationships in general are probably
1:10:01there it's obvious to everybody that
1:10:03they matter and yet they still are
1:10:04probably perpetually undervalued. Yeah.
1:10:06>> So uh it's true in a business sense
1:10:09which is what you're talking about here.
1:10:10Like almost every business problem at
1:10:11some level could be a people problem or
1:10:13there's a person who could unlock it and
1:10:15solve that problem. It's true in a
1:10:16personal sense. the most important
1:10:18decision you probably will make is like
1:10:20whether or who you get married to. Uh
1:10:22that you know that will dramatically
1:10:23shape your life.
1:10:24>> It's also true in like a just a luck
1:10:27business life sense which is that
1:10:31there is no such thing as an opportunity
1:10:33that is not tied to a person, right?
1:10:34Like opportunities come through people.
1:10:36And so when you say, "Oh, I wish I could
1:10:38just like have some good luck or I wish
1:10:40I could like catch my lucky break." what
1:10:42you're probably talking about is there's
1:10:43a person who carries that opportunity
1:10:45with them that you need to interface
1:10:47with or get to know and so in all of
1:10:49these ways relationships dramatically
1:10:51shape our lives and uh yeah people
1:10:54people are probably the most important
1:10:55thing in that sense
1:10:56>> I think with with with age that becomes
1:10:59more apparent for most people it becomes
1:11:01more most apparent that the best
1:11:03decisions I've made in my life were
1:11:04people and the worst decisions I made in
1:11:06my life were also [laughter] people
1:11:08>> but we don't think about that we think
1:11:09I'll work Saturday and Sunday in the I
1:11:11I'll have some great idea. If I read a
1:11:13book, I'll have some great idea which
1:11:14will make me lucky and successful.
1:11:16Whereas um with time, I realize that the
1:11:19smart work versus the hard work is
1:11:21focusing much more on on people. How how
1:11:23do you how does your work dovetail into
1:11:25things like um self-esteem and
1:11:27confidence and because everybody wants
1:11:29to build confidence and for some people
1:11:32they're in a bit of a downward
1:11:33reinforcing confidence spiral which I
1:11:35guess would look something like this.
1:11:36you know, something happened in their
1:11:38life, so they're less likely to raise
1:11:40their hand or to step outside of their
1:11:42zone zone of comfort. And even when and
1:11:44if they do, they interpret it
1:11:45negatively, and that knocks their
1:11:47confidence. They see it, they're wearing
1:11:49sunglasses that interpret the things
1:11:51that are happening as negative, and
1:11:52they're in this sort of downward
1:11:54compounding spiral.
1:11:55>> Mhm.
1:11:55>> And there's other people that seem to be
1:11:57going the other way. First is um I had a
1:12:01high school basketball coach that told
1:12:02me, "Confidence is just displayed
1:12:04ability." And what he meant was if you
1:12:07want to feel more confident about like
1:12:09your ability to make a free throw, go
1:12:10out there and shoot for an hour and once
1:12:12you knock down 10 in a row, you're going
1:12:13to feel a lot better about it. And so
1:12:15what you realize, this is true for
1:12:16everything, which is once you have
1:12:18started to display your ability in any
1:12:21given area, you know, give a successful
1:12:23speech or, you know, make a nice
1:12:24presentation for work or whatever it is,
1:12:27you feel better about it. And so what
1:12:29you realize is you need reps. You know,
1:12:31you need practice. Whatever the thing
1:12:33is, you need you need enough repetition
1:12:35to start to learn how to do the thing.
1:12:37And so this is why sometimes I'll say
1:12:39like motivation comes after starting,
1:12:41not before. We think we need motivation
1:12:43to get started, but in fact, you should
1:12:44try to scale it down and make it so easy
1:12:46that you'll do it even if you don't feel
1:12:48that motivated about it and start get
1:12:50some reps in and then once you've get
1:12:52got and then once you have performed the
1:12:54repetitions, you start to build up some
1:12:56confidence because you know that you
1:12:57have some evidence that you can do it.
1:12:58So confidence is displayed ability.
1:13:00Let's try to scale it down, make it
1:13:02easy, start to display our ability, and
1:13:04then the confidence comes as a side
1:13:05effect. The second thing though, and
1:13:07this this might even be the more
1:13:09important piece. You mentioned this idea
1:13:10of someone who interprets things in a
1:13:12negative frame. You know, they they get
1:13:14in the caught in this like downward
1:13:16spiral. They see like evidence of things
1:13:17working against them or the world is
1:13:19tilted against them or like they're
1:13:20emphasizing the pieces of the story that
1:13:22aren't serving them that well. I had so
1:13:24I played baseball for a long time. I
1:13:25played through college. Um, and when I
1:13:27was younger, uh, I was 10, 12, 14, after
1:13:30each season, we would do this thing. My
1:13:32dad and I would go out and sit on the
1:13:33back deck and we would talk about like
1:13:36the wins, the good parts of the of the,
1:13:38you know, the biggest games that our
1:13:39team won or like my best plays from the
1:13:41year or just like things that I got
1:13:43better at from the season before. And I
1:13:46was never the best player on any team
1:13:47that I was on. But you finish each
1:13:50season with a sense of positivity, a
1:13:52sense of confidence, this feeling of
1:13:54like momentum going into the next year.
1:13:56And I think I played for a long time
1:13:58partially because of that, you know,
1:14:00like we were it was a practice of
1:14:02emphasizing your wins. And so I think
1:14:06that's an interesting thing that like
1:14:07more people should try is when you look
1:14:10back on your last year, what are some of
1:14:11the wins that you've had? And try to use
1:14:13that, you know, tell yourself that
1:14:14story, emphasize that story and use that
1:14:16to move into the next moment. I was
1:14:18talking recently. So, I have this I have
1:14:21this publishing company that I
1:14:22co-founded, Author's Equity, and we're
1:14:25publishing this book from this guy named
1:14:26Brandon Webb, who is a former Navy Seal.
1:14:29He uh trained the Navy Seal sniper unit
1:14:31in mental performance. And so, he he
1:14:35would teach them all kinds of things. I
1:14:36was talking to him about the book and
1:14:37some of the strategies and I was trying
1:14:38to learn like what they would do. And
1:14:40two things stood out to me. The first
1:14:41thing he said is a positive outlook no
1:14:43matter the scenario. So the first thing
1:14:45we train them on is positive outlook no
1:14:46matter what situation or scenario
1:14:48they're in. The second thing is
1:14:50visualizing things going well. Okay. So
1:14:54so one time a sniper came up to him and
1:14:56said what's a good score on this uh
1:14:58course like they would give them these
1:14:59little courses to test like you know
1:15:00they have to make eight or 10 or 12
1:15:02different shots or whatever. And he said
1:15:04a good score is 100%. [laughter] And he
1:15:06was like now in reality almost nobody
1:15:08gets 100%. Um, but I wanted to set that
1:15:12standard, right? To set that outcome in
1:15:13their mind as the thing that they were
1:15:15shooting for. And he had two guys he was
1:15:16training. One of them got a 96, one of
1:15:18them got 100. Um, anyway, the point is
1:15:20that
1:15:22in life, there are always things that go
1:15:24well and things that go poorly. There
1:15:26will always be days that things are
1:15:28stacked against you and days when things
1:15:29seem to go your way. And the question
1:15:31is, which story are you telling
1:15:33yourself? You know, which version of the
1:15:35events are you emphasizing? Now, I'm not
1:15:37suggesting that you should like ignore
1:15:38reality. You know, if there's a problem
1:15:40that needs to be addressed, then you
1:15:41still need to address it. But as long as
1:15:43you're not re ignoring reality, I feel
1:15:46like the only thing that makes sense is
1:15:48to emphasize the empowering version. You
1:15:50know, to emphasize the wins, to sit down
1:15:52and reflect on what you've done and
1:15:53think about what the wins were and how
1:15:54that feeds into your momentum going
1:15:56forward and to visualize the next step
1:15:58and how it's going to go well. It
1:16:00reminds me of um something Sir David
1:16:02Brford said to me who I know is the
1:16:04prominent in the first chapter of your
1:16:05book.
1:16:06>> Um he was talking a lot about 1% gains
1:16:08etc. And he says the thing that he
1:16:10doesn't get to talk about enough is the
1:16:12psychological momentum that's created
1:16:14from
1:16:16accomplishing these 1% gains and
1:16:18celebrating them amongst the team. He
1:16:19said to me that when he was in the
1:16:20British cycling team and he went into
1:16:22there and they were down and out and
1:16:23depressed and kind of being ridiculed
1:16:24for being this terrible team. He goes,
1:16:26"We started, you know, stacking up the
1:16:271%s, etc." And the crazy thing that
1:16:30happened is we started to quote feel
1:16:32like we were going somewhere and people
1:16:34stopped leaving the bike shop at 5:00
1:16:36p.m. and started staying till 2:00 a.m.
1:16:39because they felt like they were going
1:16:40somewhere. It dovetails into your point
1:16:42about progress, but also just the power
1:16:44of being intentional about um
1:16:47celebrating those wins and the
1:16:49psychological momentum it creates in a
1:16:50group of people and yourself.
1:16:51>> That's great. I think you do need to be
1:16:53a little bit more intentional about it
1:16:55in the real world. So if you look if you
1:16:56look at some of the most habit forming
1:16:58technologies or some of the most habit
1:17:00forming things like let's take video
1:17:01games for example in a video game there
1:17:04are continual constant forms of
1:17:07progress. So your score is increasing in
1:17:09like the top corner of the screen
1:17:11whenever you pick up a weapon or a ruby
1:17:13or a gem or whatever it's like a little
1:17:14jingle or chime or some musical note.
1:17:16Even the pitterpatter of footsteps as
1:17:18you like run through the level is a
1:17:20signal that you're making progress that
1:17:21you're moving forward that you're going
1:17:23somewhere. And so if you compare all of
1:17:25that immediate feedback that you're
1:17:27getting like all in the same moment when
1:17:28you're playing this level
1:17:30>> and then you walk outside and you think
1:17:32about most of the things you're working
1:17:33on in real life, you're like this
1:17:35committee's been meeting every Friday
1:17:36for six months. We still haven't shipped
1:17:38this feature, you know, like I've been
1:17:39running every day for the last month and
1:17:41I still don't see a change in my body.
1:17:42And so it's very hard to compare the
1:17:46digital world and all the progress that
1:17:47we get there through our screens to the
1:17:49physical world and the habits that we're
1:17:51trying to build and foster in our lives
1:17:52and businesses.
1:17:54>> And I think that's one reason why it is
1:17:56nice to be more intentional about it to
1:17:58try to think about what are the 1%
1:18:00improvements or the small gains that we
1:18:02can make today and then celebrating
1:18:03those wins so that you have some feeling
1:18:05of progress there because in the real
1:18:07world progress is often delayed. You
1:18:10know, my parents like to swim. Well, if
1:18:13they were swimming for the change that
1:18:14they're going to see in their body, it
1:18:16takes two years, you know, like they the
1:18:18problem is they jump into the water and
1:18:19their body looks exactly the same when
1:18:21they get out, right? And so, you need
1:18:23something in the moment that gives you
1:18:24some signal of progress. They use a
1:18:26habit tracker. So, they have like a
1:18:28little template where they just put a
1:18:29little X on that day. But, you need
1:18:31something that visualizes your progress,
1:18:34that gives you some signal that you're
1:18:35moving forward. I was reminded then of
1:18:37the Harvard Business Review did the
1:18:38study where they asked people what their
1:18:39best day in work was and they asked them
1:18:40to keep work diaries. I think it was
1:18:41about a thousand people and the majority
1:18:43of people pointed at a day in their work
1:18:45diary in that week where they had a
1:18:46feeling of progress even if it was tiny
1:18:48>> as and this goes to your point about
1:18:50making it fun as well. So highlighting
1:18:52one's progress and celebrating it makes
1:18:54it fun but also that psychological
1:18:55momentum. And then also you can do this
1:18:57stuff you can do the 1% better every
1:18:59day. you put yourself in a position to
1:19:02experience the feeling of progress if
1:19:04you scale your habits down. So let's say
1:19:06sometimes there in chemistry there's
1:19:08this com um there's this concept of
1:19:09activation energy how much energy it
1:19:11takes to activate a reaction.
1:19:13>> So you know if the activation energy is
1:19:15high you have to put a lot of heat or a
1:19:17lot of energy into the reaction to make
1:19:19it occur.
1:19:20>> I think habits kind of have an
1:19:21activation energy too. So like let's say
1:19:24that your habit is to do a 100 push-ups
1:19:26a day. the activation energy for that's
1:19:28kind of high on the first day when
1:19:30you're really pumped about it. Maybe
1:19:31you're doing sets of 10 all throughout
1:19:32the day and you get to 100 and you feel
1:19:34really good. Maybe you can do that for a
1:19:35couple days or a week or whatever, you
1:19:37know. Um but at some point you get to a
1:19:40day where you're tired or you had a lot
1:19:42to do at work or whatever and then you
1:19:43turn around it's 9:30 and you're like, I
1:19:44need to go to bed soon. Do I feel like
1:19:46doing 100 push-ups? Um and then you skip
1:19:48it. But if you're something much
1:19:50smaller, like your goal is to do one
1:19:52push-up or 10 push-ups, well, that is a
1:19:54lot easier and the activation energy is
1:19:56much lower. And so then you get to that
1:19:58day eight or nine or 10 days in when
1:20:00it's 9:30, you can still do 10 push-ups
1:20:02before you go to bed, right? And so you
1:20:05still get the feeling of progress. You
1:20:07still get the feeling that you're moving
1:20:08forward simply because you set the bar
1:20:10lower to start. You know, if the bar is
1:20:12perfect at the beginning, it's really
1:20:15hard to maintain that for very long. But
1:20:17if the bar is getting you in now, you
1:20:19build momentum and you get the feeling
1:20:21of progress and you get a month or two
1:20:22months or three months in and you still
1:20:24have a streak going and you feel pretty
1:20:26good about yourself. And at some point
1:20:28you start doing it enough that you
1:20:30realize, okay, there will probably be a
1:20:32day in here where I miss, but I still
1:20:34feel good about who I am and how much
1:20:36I've shown up here and like you've
1:20:37proven a lot to yourself. And so I I
1:20:39think sometimes scaling it down and
1:20:41making it easy gives yourself a better
1:20:43opportunity to feel progress. two words
1:20:46you said in in the last couple of
1:20:47minutes. One of them was your parents
1:20:48use a habit tracker and the other one
1:20:49was use the word streak.
1:20:51>> Yeah.
1:20:52>> Do you understand the context of this
1:20:53jar that was in front of me with with
1:20:54paper clips? Could you explain to me
1:20:56habit tracking and streaks and why why
1:20:58they matter?
1:20:59>> So when I was working on atomic habits,
1:21:01I came across this guy named Trent
1:21:02Durstman and he was uh he had an
1:21:05interesting story. He's an entrepreneur
1:21:07now, but early in his career um he had
1:21:10this job where he was a stock broker in
1:21:12Abbottzford, Canada. and Abbottzford,
1:21:14this is like in the '90s time was like
1:21:15pretty small town, like it it wasn't,
1:21:17you know, some big uh city. And he was
1:21:21supposed to just drive more business,
1:21:23but like, you know, they didn't have a
1:21:24lot of advantages. It wasn't like he was
1:21:25in New York or whatever. He had this one
1:21:27simple habit that he used to end up
1:21:30becoming the top performer in the firm
1:21:32and building the biggest book of
1:21:34business there over like the next couple
1:21:35years. And it was this simple strategy
1:21:37of paper clips. So all he did, a lot of
1:21:40his stockbroker friends who were like
1:21:42also working in this job, they would
1:21:44read analyst reports, they would look at
1:21:46the news, they would try to analyze
1:21:48company's financial statements. They
1:21:49were doing all this other stuff. And he
1:21:50said, "I'm not going to do that. All I'm
1:21:52going to do
1:21:53>> is I'm going to make a sales call and
1:21:55whenever I make a call, see how tight
1:21:57anybody put these on. Um, whenever
1:21:59whenever I make a call, I'm going to
1:22:01make a sales call and then I'm going to
1:22:02take one paperclip and I'm going to move
1:22:04it over. And then I'm going to make
1:22:06another sales call. I'm going to take
1:22:08another paper clip and move it over. And
1:22:10he had a hundred paper clips in the jar.
1:22:12And his goal every day was to move a
1:22:14hundred from one jar to the next. And
1:22:16that was all he did. And with that one
1:22:18simple habit, he ended up building this
1:22:20huge book of business. Two things about
1:22:22this. One, obviously, he has a visual
1:22:25marker of the progress that he's making,
1:22:27right? So moving paper clips to the
1:22:29other jar is a way to see that he's
1:22:31progressing throughout the day. It also
1:22:32makes it a little bit into like a little
1:22:34game, you know? It's like, okay, how how
1:22:36quickly can I move the paper clips over?
1:22:37How much, you know, progress am I
1:22:39making? Do I have 50 over by the time
1:22:40lunch rolls around? You know, you can
1:22:42start to see how you you have a little
1:22:44bit of a uh this these progressive
1:22:46markers throughout the day.
1:22:47>> But the other thing that I think is
1:22:49interesting about it is he boiled it
1:22:50down to just what was the one thing that
1:22:52really moved the needle, you know, and
1:22:54he just focused on that. And there are
1:22:56so many things in life that it's really
1:22:58easy to get focused on the optimization.
1:23:00It's so if you are so focused on finding
1:23:03the perfect sales strategy, the best
1:23:05business plan, the ideal diet to follow,
1:23:08you're so focused on optimizing, you're
1:23:09like, "Okay, how about sometimes people
1:23:11will come to me and they'll say they
1:23:12want to build an audience and they like
1:23:13ask about all the tactics and the
1:23:15strategies and I say just write an
1:23:18article every week for the next two
1:23:19years and then get back to me like that.
1:23:21Let's not skip that part. Can we start
1:23:22let's start there or like let's not miss
1:23:24a workout for two years and then like we
1:23:26can talk about whether the program is
1:23:27working or not, you know?" And it's like
1:23:29that. So I think this helps you focus on
1:23:32what is the big thing that's really
1:23:33moving the the needle.
1:23:35>> I was thinking it about it through the
1:23:36frame of the habit cycle as well because
1:23:39as I look at this habit cycle I'm seeing
1:23:41reward being hit. I'm seeing uh a desire
1:23:44for an outcome as well.
1:23:46>> Yeah. Yeah. This is interesting. So
1:23:47there um we haven't talked about this
1:23:48yet so let me just break it down real
1:23:50quick. So if you're building a habit
1:23:52there are roughly four different stages
1:23:54that every habit goes through. So I call
1:23:56them in the book in atomic habits I call
1:23:57them Q, craving, response and reward.
1:23:59Right? So the Q is just something that
1:24:01you notice. So let's say for example you
1:24:03see a plate of cookies on the counter in
1:24:04the kitchen. That's a visual cue. The
1:24:07craving is the prediction that your
1:24:09brain makes about what that Q means. So
1:24:11you see the plate of cookies, your brain
1:24:12predicts, oh that'll be sweet, sugary,
1:24:14tasty, enjoyable. So that favorable
1:24:16prediction motivates you to take the
1:24:18response. That's the third step. You
1:24:20walk over, pick it up, and take a bite.
1:24:22And then finally, the fourth step is the
1:24:24reward. Oh, it is in fact sweet, sugary,
1:24:26tasty, enjoyable. So, Q, craving,
1:24:28response, reward.
1:24:31These steps are basically what every
1:24:33habitual behavior is going through. Even
1:24:35even really automatic stuff like let's
1:24:37say you walk into a room and the lights
1:24:39are off. So, Q, it's dark. Craving, I
1:24:42want to be able to see. Response, I flip
1:24:44on the light switch. Reward, the lights
1:24:46come on. Now, it's it's visible out
1:24:48there. So even really fast stuff like
1:24:51turning on a light switch is going
1:24:52through those four steps. So pretty much
1:24:54every habit follows that cycle. And you
1:24:56can see that you know this uh paperclip
1:24:58strategy does kind of play into this a
1:25:00little bit. Q you have the paper clips
1:25:02on the desk, right? So like not only do
1:25:04you want to make the sales calls for a
1:25:05business standpoint, but you also have
1:25:07these staring at you every morning when
1:25:08you come into your desk. And so it's a
1:25:09little bit of a visual reminder, reminds
1:25:11you, prompts you to think, okay, all
1:25:13right, I do want to make these calls and
1:25:14try to drive more business or, you know,
1:25:16build build up the um make another
1:25:18successful sales call. That craving gets
1:25:19you to pick up the phone, the actual
1:25:21response. And then the reward is I get
1:25:23to move the paperclip over and now I
1:25:25feel like yeah, you get the little
1:25:27>> ting jingle in your ear of the paperclip
1:25:29hitting and you know, it just get it
1:25:32adds to the reward effect. What I think
1:25:34is most interesting is how do we take
1:25:36this how do we take these four steps
1:25:38that basically all behaviors go through
1:25:40and then translate it into something
1:25:42that we can use and apply in daily life
1:25:45and work. So I call this the four laws
1:25:47of behavior change. So there's one for
1:25:49there's one for each step. Yeah, you got
1:25:51them right here.
1:25:52>> I'll give them to you.
1:25:54>> So I call these the four laws of
1:25:55behavior change, right? So for the Q,
1:25:58the first law is you want to make it
1:25:59obvious. All right? You want the cues.
1:26:01You want the cues of your good habits to
1:26:03be obvious, available, visible, easy to
1:26:06see. Easier it is to see or get your
1:26:08attention, the more likely you are to
1:26:09act on it. So, a lot of that's about
1:26:11environment. It's about making things
1:26:12obvious, but it's the Q gets your
1:26:14attention, something you notice.
1:26:16>> So, let's put this in the context of me
1:26:18wanting to make sure I have my
1:26:19supplement routine every day.
1:26:20>> Sure.
1:26:21>> Because that's something I think about.
1:26:22Yeah.
1:26:22>> I want to have my creatine every day.
1:26:23>> So, it's like, where's the creatine in
1:26:25the kitchen? you know, is it is it
1:26:26tucked up in a high shelf and it's
1:26:28behind like a cabinet door and you don't
1:26:29really see it or is it like out on the
1:26:31counter? It's one of the first things
1:26:32that you see. So there, you know, there
1:26:33are varying degrees of what you want to
1:26:35do here and like what you want to place
1:26:36out, but you're just trying to make the
1:26:38good habit obvious. You want to make it
1:26:39easy to notice. Reminds me of when I
1:26:41started DJing and the DJing equipment
1:26:43was upstairs in the spare room out the
1:26:45way and I had a conversation with my
1:26:46girlfriend who's through there and I was
1:26:47like, I really want to learn DJing. So,
1:26:49can I put it on the kitchen counter for
1:26:50the next year?
1:26:52>> Because then I'll be walking past one
1:26:53day and go, "Oh, DJ." you know, and then
1:26:54I put it on the kitchen counter and I
1:26:55started DJing.
1:26:56>> I have a a reader who he would go to his
1:26:58guitar lessons and he would practice
1:27:00with his teacher and then he'd give him
1:27:01some homework to practice certain scales
1:27:03or whatever and then he would come back
1:27:05and he would take his guitar, put it in
1:27:07the case at the end of each um at the
1:27:09end of each session and put it in the
1:27:11closet. Well, he'd forget it was there
1:27:12for a week and then, you know, the next
1:27:13week would roll around. He'd pick it out
1:27:15and go to practice and he'd be like,
1:27:16"You weren't, you know, you didn't do
1:27:17this throughout the week." So, he bought
1:27:19a guitar stand and put it in the center
1:27:20of the living room. Now he passes it 30
1:27:23times a day. Much more likely to pick it
1:27:25up and play for 5 minutes. So it's just
1:27:27making making your habits obvious. The
1:27:29second law is about the craving and it's
1:27:31all about making it attractive. And this
1:27:33is where um I mentioned earlier like
1:27:35that question of what would this look
1:27:36like if it was fun. You want your habits
1:27:38to be fun, compelling, attractive,
1:27:40interesting to you. And the more
1:27:42engaging or exciting it is, the more
1:27:44likely you are to stick with it. So,
1:27:45like I had one woman who she wanted to
1:27:48stop going out to eat for lunch at work
1:27:50every day and start bringing her lunch
1:27:52in because she felt like it would be
1:27:53healthier, but the idea of making like a
1:27:55salad for lunch wasn't that exciting to
1:27:56her. So, she came up with this phrase of
1:27:58a party in a bowl. And so, she in the
1:28:01beginning she would do all kinds of
1:28:02stuff. She would like take potato chips
1:28:04and crumble them up and put them in
1:28:05there or she would like chop up Snickers
1:28:07bars and put them in with the salad or
1:28:08whatever. She was just trying to find a
1:28:10way to make it fun. And then once she
1:28:12was already bringing lunch in every day,
1:28:14you know, after she did this for a month
1:28:16or so, then she was like, "All right,
1:28:17I'm in the habit of bringing lunch in.
1:28:18How can I start to make lunch
1:28:20healthier?" So, find a way to make your
1:28:21habit attractive.
1:28:23>> The third law is to make it easy. This
1:28:26is all about making it simple,
1:28:28frictionless, easy to do. The more
1:28:30convenient or frictionless your habits
1:28:32are, the more likely they are to occur.
1:28:34We've talked about this a lot already,
1:28:36but it's, you know, scaling your habits
1:28:37down. It's using the two-minute rule to
1:28:39make it, you know, as easy as you can.
1:28:40But the easier a habit is to perform,
1:28:42the more likely it is to happen. Daniel
1:28:45Conorman, the famous psychologist, I
1:28:47think he once said that if you were to
1:28:49boil behavior down to like a single
1:28:51principle, a single thing that drives
1:28:53human behavior, it's convenience. It's
1:28:55ease. You know, what is the what is the
1:28:56easy thing to do? We are biological
1:28:58organisms and we expend energy to live.
1:29:02And it is in your best interest to try
1:29:04to conserve energy whenever you can. And
1:29:06so the more your brain is wired for it,
1:29:08you're always looking for it. In fact,
1:29:10many of the largest businesses in the
1:29:12world basically just take a human desire
1:29:15that we already want to do and try to
1:29:17make it even more convenient. Like Door
1:29:19Dash is just like, you need food, just
1:29:21tap a couple times with your thumb and
1:29:22we'll give it to you. I mean, in fact,
1:29:24the whole arc of human history and how
1:29:26we get food is just been one long path
1:29:28of making it more and more convenient.
1:29:30It used to be that we were hunter
1:29:32gathers and had to kill our food or
1:29:34forage for berries in the bush. And then
1:29:36we started growing it so it was right
1:29:37next to our house and we didn't have to
1:29:39move. We could just harvest the corn or
1:29:40the beans or whatever and eat it. And
1:29:42then we started just shipping it to
1:29:44grocery stores. Now you don't even have
1:29:45to grow it yourself. You'll just come
1:29:47over here and you can buy it and take it
1:29:48home. And then we said, "Forget it. You
1:29:50don't even need to drive to the grocery
1:29:52store anymore. We'll just deliver it
1:29:53through Instacart or grocery delivery or
1:29:55whatever." And now we say, "You don't
1:29:57even have to cook it in your own house
1:29:58anymore. We'll just you can just order
1:29:59it on Door Dash. You just tap with your
1:30:01thumb and we'll bring it readymade to
1:30:02you right here and you can just eat it.
1:30:04It's all just one continual long arc of
1:30:06making it easier and easier. And the
1:30:09more that you can make your habits more
1:30:10convenient, the more likely it is that
1:30:12you're going to stick to it and and
1:30:14follow through.
1:30:15>> And then the fourth and final law is to
1:30:17make it satisfying. The more satisfying
1:30:20your habits are, the more likely you are
1:30:21to stick to them in the future and
1:30:23return to them again. The first three
1:30:25laws, make it obvious, make it
1:30:27attractive, and make it easy, are all
1:30:31about making your habit more likely to
1:30:34occur this time.
1:30:35>> Mhm.
1:30:36>> Make it satisfying is about increasing
1:30:38the odds that you do it next time.
1:30:41Because by the time you get to this
1:30:42step, the habit's already occurred,
1:30:43right? It's already over now. But was it
1:30:45rewarding or not? Was it beneficial or
1:30:47not? Did it serve you in some way? If it
1:30:49serves you, if you feel like it benefits
1:30:51you somehow, that marks the experience
1:30:54in your brain and says, "Hey, this was
1:30:56useful. Let's come back to this next
1:30:58time." Next time you're in a similar
1:31:00situation, let's repeat this again. And
1:31:02so, make it satisfying. The reward is
1:31:05kind of it closes the feedback loop of
1:31:07learning. You know, it increases the
1:31:09odds that you're going to follow through
1:31:10on it. And I use that word learning
1:31:12intentionally. We're talking about
1:31:14building habits, but in a way, what
1:31:17we're really talking about is the
1:31:18process of learning. It's the process of
1:31:20how your brain and body learn what to do
1:31:22as you go through life. You know, you go
1:31:25throughout life and you experience
1:31:26different things and you come across
1:31:28different strategies and you try them
1:31:30out. You know that at some point there's
1:31:31the first time that you take a bite of a
1:31:33pancake and then you're like, "Oh,
1:31:34that's kind of tasty. Maybe I should
1:31:36take another bite." And other times you
1:31:38try things and you're like, "I don't
1:31:39really like that that much." Or it
1:31:40didn't really do anything. It was kind
1:31:41of neutral. and your brain's like,
1:31:42"Well, maybe try something different
1:31:43next time." So, the behaviors that are
1:31:45rewarded, the behaviors that are
1:31:47satisfying, the behaviors that are enjoy
1:31:49enjoyable are likely to stick. And I
1:31:51guess there's lots of different ways one
1:31:53can make it rewarding. I was thinking
1:31:54about our fitness group, which we have
1:31:56on WhatsApp, where it's called Fitness
1:31:58Blockchain, and every month, one person
1:31:59is evicted. Every day that you go to the
1:32:01gym, you take a screenshot of your
1:32:02workout and drop it in there. And then
1:32:04someone who's like a a freelance data
1:32:07science person just kind of compiles it
1:32:09all into a document and send screenshots
1:32:11every day with our combined workouts.
1:32:12The whole game is consistency. So it
1:32:13doesn't matter how hard you worked. It's
1:32:14just like did you go and that has kind
1:32:17of made I don't know where that appears
1:32:18on this cycle, but I think of it as like
1:32:20accountability. It also makes it fun. Um
1:32:22but where is that sort of social pact
1:32:24element on this cycle? Is that the part
1:32:26of the reward of it?
1:32:27>> I think it influences all of the
1:32:29behaviors, you know. So the fact that
1:32:30you see other people working out is a
1:32:32cue, right? So like you might get a text
1:32:34of somebody else's screenshot phone.
1:32:36You're like, "Oh,
1:32:36>> yeah,
1:32:37>> I need to get my workout in today. I
1:32:38don't want to forget." So that's a cue
1:32:39that triggers the behavior.
1:32:41>> There's something attractive about being
1:32:43part of it as a group. You know that
1:32:44once you post your screenshot that other
1:32:47people are going to see it and like you
1:32:48might get kind of rewarded for it or
1:32:50like you did your thing. So that's kind
1:32:52of exciting and feels motivating that
1:32:53like motivates you to show up and do it.
1:32:56Um sometimes you may work out with
1:32:57somebody,
1:32:58>> right? And so that like that there's
1:33:00something there that's improving the
1:33:01response. It's more it's more fun to do
1:33:03it together, but it also gets you
1:33:04moving. And then finally, there's the
1:33:06reward of, you know, sticking to the
1:33:08streak or being part of it or not
1:33:09getting
1:33:10>> we get the rewards. We actually there's
1:33:11actually a big metal belt, a physical
1:33:13belt every that's handed out every year,
1:33:14but every week there's, you know, every
1:33:15month there's a winner that get gets the
1:33:17display picture as their face. And
1:33:19>> I want the belt. That sounds cool.
1:33:21>> It's got my name engraved in it. It's
1:33:22like a wrestling belt.
1:33:24>> That's awesome.
1:33:25>> How does this work if you're trying to
1:33:26break a habit? So for each of these
1:33:29there are there are many ways to do each
1:33:32of these things. You know there's many
1:33:33ways to make habits obvious. There are
1:33:35many ways to make them attractive and so
1:33:36on. And what I'm giving you is just kind
1:33:39of the overview of how to build a good
1:33:41habit or how to install a new behavior.
1:33:44If you want to break a bad habit then
1:33:46you just invert these four. So rather
1:33:49than making it obvious make it
1:33:50invisible.
1:33:51>> Okay?
1:33:51>> Unsubscribe from emails. Don't keep junk
1:33:53food in the house. Reduce exposure to
1:33:54the queue. Rather than making it
1:33:56attractive, make it unattractive. That's
1:33:58the hardest one. We can talk about that
1:33:59in a second. Rather than making it easy,
1:34:02make it difficult. So, increase
1:34:03friction, add steps between you and the
1:34:06behavior. I find like here's two
1:34:08examples for me. I've tried this new
1:34:09thing where I keep my phone in another
1:34:11room until lunch each day. So, usually
1:34:14it's like 9 to 11 or so in the morning.
1:34:17My phone is down the hall. It's in a
1:34:18different room and I'm in my office. And
1:34:21it's just a chance for me to work on my
1:34:23own priorities rather than whatever's,
1:34:24you know, coming in through the phone.
1:34:26I'm like everybody else. If my phone is
1:34:28right next to me, I will check it every
1:34:293 minutes just because it's there. But
1:34:31if it's down the hall, it's only 30
1:34:32seconds away, but I never go get it. And
1:34:35I always think that's interesting. You
1:34:36know, it's like, did I want it or not?
1:34:38In the one sense, I wanted it badly
1:34:40enough that I would check it every 3
1:34:42minutes when it was right by me, but I
1:34:43never wanted it so bad that I'd go work
1:34:4530 seconds to go get it.
1:34:47>> And I found that a lot of habits are
1:34:48like that. if you just introduce a
1:34:50little bit of friction, they kind of
1:34:51curtail themselves to the desired
1:34:53degree. So, beer is another one. I I
1:34:56don't think this would work if you like,
1:34:58you know, actually have an addiction or
1:34:59something. But, I've noticed that if I
1:35:00get like a six-ack of beer and I put it
1:35:02in the front of the fridge and I open it
1:35:03up and it's like right there and I can
1:35:05see it. I'll have one at dinner just cuz
1:35:06it's there. But, if I put it like on the
1:35:08lowest shelf in the fridge, like all the
1:35:09way in the back, I kind of got to bend
1:35:11down to even see it. Sometimes I'll
1:35:13forget. I'll have it. It'll be there for
1:35:14two weeks. I won't even remember that
1:35:16it's in there. Um, and so I think that's
1:35:19all about like, you know, inversion of
1:35:20the first law, make it invisible, and
1:35:22inversion of the third law, make it
1:35:23difficult. The the less likely you are
1:35:25to see it, the harder it is to do, the
1:35:27more steps that are involved, the less
1:35:28likely it is to occur. And then the
1:35:30final piece is the inversion of the last
1:35:32law, which is rather than making it
1:35:33satisfying, make it unsatisfying. So
1:35:36layer on some kind of cost or a
1:35:37consequence. And I in atomic habits, I
1:35:39call this the cardinal rule of behavior
1:35:41change. It's like so pervasive of a
1:35:43teacher, which is behaviors that get
1:35:46immediately rewarded get repeated. And
1:35:49behaviors that get immediately punished
1:35:50get avoided. And so obvious, but you
1:35:54have to ask yourself, do you have a good
1:35:56feeling when you do the thing that
1:35:57you're you want to do, the habit that
1:35:59you want to build? Are you getting
1:36:00immediately rewarded for that? And if
1:36:02you have a habit you're trying to avoid,
1:36:03what is the cost? What is the
1:36:05consequence? Is there something that you
1:36:06know feels like a punishment there? If
1:36:08so, then you're more likely to avoid it.
1:36:10If not, it gets tricky.
1:36:12>> It's hard, isn't it, with like there's
1:36:13cookies on the counter out there. You
1:36:14might have noticed them as you walked in
1:36:15that you've got them on a little plate.
1:36:16Loads of
1:36:17>> No, but I'm going to grab one on the way
1:36:18out. [laughter]
1:36:19>> But but I was just thinking about that
1:36:20like if I have the cookie now, I'm not
1:36:22going to get an immediate punishment.
1:36:25The only sort of immediate punishment is
1:36:26a bit of guilt that I might start to
1:36:28feel that I'm now one step further away
1:36:30from the goals that I've set myself in
1:36:31terms of fitness. Is there any way to
1:36:34bring forward the the punishment in
1:36:36areas not the punishment but the the
1:36:38lack the downside
1:36:40>> yeah the cost of your good habits is in
1:36:43the present the cost of your bad habits
1:36:45is in the future and so for a lot of
1:36:48your quote unquote bad habits it feels
1:36:50good in the moment you know like eating
1:36:52a donut feels great now playing the
1:36:53video game feels great now doing you
1:36:55know whatever like it's only later that
1:36:57you realize oh there was a cost
1:36:58associated with this even something like
1:37:00the classic bad habit of smoking Maybe
1:37:02you get to stand with friends outside
1:37:03and socialize or maybe you reduce stress
1:37:05in the moment after a long day of work.
1:37:07It's only, you know, five or 10 or 20
1:37:09years later that you have this
1:37:10consequence. So, um, a lot of the game
1:37:15of building better habits is finding
1:37:17ways to pull the rewards of your good
1:37:20habits into the present moment so you
1:37:21feel good now. You don't have to wait
1:37:23three years for it to happen. M
1:37:25>> and pulling the consequences of your bad
1:37:27habits into the present moment so that
1:37:29you feel a little bit of the pain right
1:37:30now and you realize this isn't actually
1:37:31serving me.
1:37:33>> Which I guess is why they put the uh the
1:37:34photos of people's lungs on the
1:37:35cigarette packets.
1:37:36>> That's yeah like one of the things it's
1:37:38trying to do right.
1:37:39>> What about this um habit scorecard over
1:37:41there? Is that what your parents use
1:37:42with for swimming?
1:37:44>> So the habit scorecard just a this is
1:37:46just a simple like assessment. The
1:37:47insight behind this practice is that
1:37:50intentional behavior change starts with
1:37:52self-awareness, right? So you will you
1:37:56will change your habits all the time
1:37:57whether you think about them or not.
1:37:59You're you're building habits whether
1:38:00you focus on it or whatever. Like your
1:38:02your brain and body is built for it. Now
1:38:05the more interesting question is can you
1:38:06design your behavior? Can you shape your
1:38:09habits in the way that you want? And
1:38:11that's where self-awareness comes in.
1:38:12It's very hard to shape your habits
1:38:14without being aware of them. And so
1:38:16there have actually been some studies
1:38:17that have found that just the act of
1:38:19becoming more aware of a behavior will
1:38:21change it on its own. For example, there
1:38:23was one study that looked at people who
1:38:24journaled about their they created food
1:38:26journals for what they were eating. No
1:38:28tracking of anything. There's no they
1:38:30were not on a diet. They're not trying
1:38:31to eat certain way. They don't care
1:38:33about how many calories you have.
1:38:34There's no tracking or anything. All
1:38:36they did was simply write down what they
1:38:38ate each day. And just the act of
1:38:39journaling about it changed what people
1:38:42ate and reduced the the number of
1:38:44calories that they had and so on just
1:38:46because they were aware of what was
1:38:47happening. Um and so
1:38:50this is true for most habits which is
1:38:52once you start to notice them then you
1:38:54start to notice ways that you could
1:38:55improve them or ways that you could
1:38:56refine them or ways that maybe you want
1:38:58to do things differently. You're not
1:38:59operating as on autopilot in quite the
1:39:01same way. So the habit scorecard is just
1:39:03a simple way to do this. It's very it's
1:39:05very simple. You just write down all the
1:39:06habits that you're doing each day. So
1:39:08you can start usually there's like a
1:39:10package of behaviors in the beginning
1:39:11and maybe around lunch and then like a
1:39:12power down routine at the end of the
1:39:14day. But you know it could be something
1:39:15like wake up, drink a glass of water,
1:39:17take a shower, you know, check my phone,
1:39:20get dressed, whatever. Like you just,
1:39:21you know, go through the list of what
1:39:22your normal day looks like. And then
1:39:24once you have the behaviors written
1:39:25down, you give them a score. And the
1:39:27score is just uh if it's a good habit or
1:39:30a habit that you like that's
1:39:30contributing to your life, you put a
1:39:32plus sign. If you it's a habit that you
1:39:33feel like you want to get rid of. Um
1:39:35like maybe say I wake up and then I
1:39:37scroll on my phone for 10 minutes before
1:39:38I get out of bed. You're like, well, do
1:39:40I really want to be doing that? Maybe
1:39:41not. I'll give a minus sign. And then
1:39:43some stuff's just neutral, you know,
1:39:44like get dressed, you know, sure,
1:39:46whatever. Just put a put an equal sign.
1:39:48And the idea is not to judge yourself
1:39:51for it. It's more like sometimes I tell
1:39:52people it's almost like imagine when you
1:39:54like go to the zoo and you like, you
1:39:55know, look at the lions and you're like,
1:39:56"Oh, wow. How interesting that they
1:39:57would do that." You kind of like do that
1:39:59with yourself and you're like, "Oh, how
1:40:00interesting that I spend my time that
1:40:01you know, you're not like trying to
1:40:02judge yourself or analyze it. It's just
1:40:04let me see what I'm actually spending my
1:40:06time on. And then once you have that
1:40:08list, I think the and this is like later
1:40:11in the book, but there's um it becomes
1:40:13very useful for building habit stacks
1:40:15for for layering your new habits on top
1:40:17of the things that you're already doing.
1:40:19And so some of it self-awareness, some
1:40:21of it is priming for habit stacking.
1:40:23>> Habit stacking.
1:40:25>> Yeah.
1:40:25>> What is a habit stacking?
1:40:27>> Look at this. I like these props. This
1:40:30is great. All right. So, first let me
1:40:32let me uh just unpack the idea. Habit
1:40:34stacking is this concept that came from
1:40:36Stanford professors named BJ Fog. And
1:40:38his insight, which I think is great, is
1:40:41that it's easier to build a new habit if
1:40:44you layer it or stack it on top of an an
1:40:47old habit, a habit you're already doing.
1:40:49Um he calls it the tiny habits recipe, I
1:40:51think. But it's the insight is just that
1:40:54we all have habits that we're performing
1:40:57each day and those can become anchors.
1:40:59they can become cues that prompt the new
1:41:02behaviors that we're going to perform.
1:41:04So let's say that your current habit is
1:41:05you make a cup of coffee, right? So
1:41:07you're already doing this. You're going
1:41:08to start each day. You're going to make
1:41:09a cup of coffee. And the new habit that
1:41:11you want to build is you want to start
1:41:13meditating. So then you could say, "All
1:41:15right, after I make my morning cup of
1:41:17coffee, I will meditate for 60 seconds."
1:41:19So that this is just like a basic habit
1:41:21stack, right? So you start you start
1:41:23with coffee and then you meditate after.
1:41:25Now, once you get good at this, you can
1:41:26start to chain them together. So, for
1:41:28example, you could say after I make my
1:41:30morning cup of coffee, I will write my
1:41:32to-do uh I will meditate for 60 seconds
1:41:34and then I will write my to-do list for
1:41:35the day. After I write my to-do list for
1:41:38the day, I will prioritize them and
1:41:39start working on, you know, my first
1:41:41task or whatever. And now you have this
1:41:42little stack that you do the same way
1:41:44each morning each time. And it just is a
1:41:46way to like build simple momentum and
1:41:48get you in. I have I've got readers who
1:41:50have made like all kinds of habit
1:41:52stacks. The one of the funny ones that I
1:41:53remember is one guy um he was really
1:41:56into working out and he was always
1:41:57drinking protein shakes, but he his
1:42:00finances were kind of a mess. And so
1:42:02anytime that he would make a protein
1:42:03shake, he would like check his finances
1:42:05and check his budget for the day. He
1:42:06would like when I make a protein shake,
1:42:08I fill out my daily budget. That was
1:42:10like his habit stack. Um but you can do
1:42:12it for anything, right? And the idea is
1:42:14that you want to find a good place for
1:42:18this new habit to live. You know,
1:42:20sometimes like let's say let's take the
1:42:22meditation example.
1:42:24As a general rule, as a as a very
1:42:26broadstroke rule, it tends to be better
1:42:28to do habits earlier in the day rather
1:42:30than later because the later it gets in
1:42:32the day, the the less your day is under
1:42:35your control, right? Like more things
1:42:37interrupt. There's just, you know, you
1:42:38run lower on time, lower on energy, and
1:42:40so on.
1:42:41>> So I Yeah, I like in general, I like the
1:42:43idea of maybe doing meditation in the
1:42:45morning. So you make your cup of coffee
1:42:46and then you meditate. But if you have
1:42:48like three little toddlers that you're
1:42:50chasing around, you're trying to get
1:42:51pants on your kids, then maybe that's
1:42:52not a good time to meditate, right? It's
1:42:54not it's not a good space for that habit
1:42:56to live. So, I think once you've done
1:42:58that habit scorecard and you have like
1:43:00all of your normal habits laid out
1:43:02there, you can start to think about the
1:43:04new habit that you want to build and
1:43:05look at that list and then say, "Okay,
1:43:06what's the appropriate place to insert
1:43:08this this new habit? Where should that
1:43:10new habit stack live? What's a good
1:43:12trigger for that new behavior to occur?"
1:43:15And so you create these little stacks
1:43:16and then it just eventually it doesn't
1:43:18take that long but eventually you get
1:43:19used to just doing in the same order
1:43:20each time. You know like I have one
1:43:22woman who she's like every day I walk
1:43:24into my office, I hang up my purse, I
1:43:25hang up my jacket, I go fill up my water
1:43:27bottle, I sit down the desk and I answer
1:43:29the first email and that's like she just
1:43:30does that sequence every time she comes
1:43:32in.
1:43:32>> I have one I think that's kind of
1:43:33related which is um and this sounds very
1:43:35strange to people think I'm weird but
1:43:36whatever. um is I wanted to learn how to
1:43:39meditate, but in my day, the way that my
1:43:41day was currently constructed, there was
1:43:44no great opportunity where I'm alone for
1:43:46like 10 to 20 minutes and I'm
1:43:49uninterrupted and I'm and I'm in that
1:43:51position. And so what I started doing is
1:43:53I started meditating in the shower.
1:43:55>> I'm there anyway getting clean. So it's
1:43:58great. It's private, [snorts] not long
1:43:59showers.
1:44:00>> Yeah, [laughter] long showers. My
1:44:01girlfriend's like, "What the [ __ ] is
1:44:02going on in
1:44:04there sat on the floor?" Um, but no, I
1:44:06started just meditating in the shower
1:44:07and it was it was really it was in the
1:44:09morning alone. I'm going to do it
1:44:11anyway.
1:44:12>> Mh.
1:44:13>> So, that really helped for me. And then
1:44:15when that started to stick and I started
1:44:16to get a bit of progress and see the
1:44:17benefits, I can move out of the shower,
1:44:19per se.
1:44:19>> That's great. I had uh you're reminding
1:44:21me I had a woman who came up to me after
1:44:23a talk one time and told me that uh she
1:44:25when she brushes she wanted to work on
1:44:27her balance. She's getting older. is
1:44:28getting into her 60s and she said um any
1:44:32each day when I brush my teeth I brush
1:44:34on one leg and I do like 10 like little
1:44:36kind of half squats on that leg and then
1:44:38I switch to the other leg and I do 10
1:44:40more on that and she was like I'm my
1:44:41balance is better my legs are stronger
1:44:43and my teeth are very clean [laughter]
1:44:46takes a while but yeah you can pair it
1:44:47up in all kinds of ways. On that point
1:44:49of um doing things in the morning and
1:44:51generally having less energy later in
1:44:53the day, do you do you think much about
1:44:56h how to manage your own energy? It's I
1:44:58spoke to Dr. Lisa Feldman who's a
1:45:00neuroscientist who came up with this
1:45:02concept of like the the body budget that
1:45:04we have this finite amount of energy.
1:45:06And since then it's really had a big
1:45:07impact on me because I start in so many
1:45:09ways that we've talked about. One of
1:45:10which is I try I try to not try and take
1:45:13on too much because if in a world where
1:45:14my energy on a daily basis is finite I
1:45:17don't want to get to the end of my body
1:45:18budget but also the order of things like
1:45:21do I put my most important tasks today
1:45:23>> at the beginning of the day etc etc
1:45:26>> I would layer so yes I do think about
1:45:27this a little bit uh and I've heard this
1:45:29like you want energy management not time
1:45:31management you know construct
1:45:32>> the other thing that I would add to it
1:45:34that I don't know that I've ever heard
1:45:35anybody talk about is control so the Um,
1:45:40the standard thing that everybody says
1:45:41is, "Oh, we all only have 24 hours in a
1:45:43day." Which obviously is true, but if
1:45:45you were to break that into like 24
1:45:471-hour chunks and just look at your day
1:45:49laid out that way, you have different
1:45:51levels of control over certain 1 hour
1:45:54chunks than others. Um, so for example,
1:45:56the, you know, what I said a minute ago,
1:45:57like if you have a bunch of kids and
1:45:58you're getting them dressed from like
1:46:007:00 to 8 a.m., that hour isn't that
1:46:02much under your control. It's not a good
1:46:03time to meditate. It's not a good time
1:46:05to work out. There's other
1:46:06responsibilities that tend to happen in
1:46:07that hour. And so I think that's an
1:46:09interesting thing too is to map your day
1:46:11out and look at this and say, "All
1:46:12right, which hours are is my energy the
1:46:15best and which hours are most under my
1:46:18control?" And then you can start to see
1:46:20like where you're ultimately what I
1:46:22think you're getting to is what are the
1:46:24good hours for me? You know, like where
1:46:26do those live throughout the day? And
1:46:28then the next step is to ask what is
1:46:30getting my best hours and what's getting
1:46:32my leftovers. And I I have had a couple
1:46:35different times where I've looked at
1:46:36things and said, "I say this is
1:46:39important to me, but really it's only
1:46:40getting my leftover hours." And so then
1:46:42you're like, "Okay, something might need
1:46:43to change." So I I think about all of
1:46:45that. I think about where's uh how much
1:46:47time do I have in general? Where are the
1:46:49pockets where I have the most energy or
1:46:51the best energy? Um and then also where
1:46:53are the pockets where I have the most
1:46:54control? And then you try to figure out
1:46:56how to slot stuff in. And theoretically,
1:46:57you'd want to put the new hard habits
1:47:00you're trying to form in areas where you
1:47:01have the highest degree of control
1:47:02versus like 11 p.m. at night.
1:47:04>> Uh, right. I Yeah, I think I think in
1:47:06general, that's right. It's it's so
1:47:07tricky when you have multiple things
1:47:09that really matter to you. You know,
1:47:11it's it's like, all right, you're
1:47:12choosing between family, you're choosing
1:47:14between work, you're choosing between
1:47:15personal pursuits and these new habits
1:47:16you're trying to build. Like,
1:47:17everything's got to kind of work
1:47:19together. And so, it's a balance of of
1:47:21shaping all of that.
1:47:24So many of us are pursuing passive forms
1:47:26of income and to build side businesses
1:47:28in order to help us cover our bills. And
1:47:30that opportunity is here with our
1:47:32sponsor Stan, a business that I co-own.
1:47:35It is the platform that can help you
1:47:36take full advantage of your own
1:47:38financial situation. Stan enables you to
1:47:41work for yourself. It makes selling
1:47:42digital products, courses, memberships,
1:47:45and more simple products more scalable
1:47:47and easier to do. You can turn your
1:47:49ideas into income and get the support to
1:47:51grow whatever you're building. And we've
1:47:53just launched Dare to Dream. It's for
1:47:55those who are ready to make the shift
1:47:57from thinking to building, from planning
1:47:59to actually doing the thing. It's about
1:48:01seeing that dream in your head and
1:48:03knowing exactly what it takes to bring
1:48:04it to life. Enter to win $100,000 for
1:48:07your dream. All you have to do is share
1:48:08what it is. Learn more at
1:48:10daretodream.stan.store.
1:48:13>> Did I ever tell you about the uh data
1:48:14breach that we had at my previous
1:48:16company? Yeah, I remember hearing about
1:48:18that
1:48:18>> which which um was a total nightmare.
1:48:20So, I'm glad that we now use one
1:48:21password.
1:48:22>> What actually is it, Steve?
1:48:23>> It's called um one password and they're
1:48:26the sponsor of the podcast now. And they
1:48:27have this feature called enterprise
1:48:28password manager which means that if any
1:48:30of our passwords across the team are
1:48:32compromised or leaked then it notifies
1:48:34us and obviously if that were to be the
1:48:36case we're at huge risk across the
1:48:37entire team. through one password EPM,
1:48:39you can also store all of your sensitive
1:48:41information and it's helping us to move
1:48:43closer towards pass keys, which means
1:48:45eventually everybody will be able to log
1:48:47in to pretty much everything without
1:48:49ever having to put a password in.
1:48:50>> Sounds like a good addition.
1:48:51>> Yeah, I think it's like the single most
1:48:53impactful security addition you can make
1:48:55to your team, especially if your team
1:48:56has tons of passwords that are all like
1:48:58hidden in Excel files and stuff. To my
1:49:00listeners, if you want to secure your
1:49:01business, head to onepass.com/doac.
1:49:05One password is a game changer. It's the
1:49:07future that I always wished would be the
1:49:08case as someone that has, you know, 20,
1:49:1030 different passwords for 20, 30
1:49:12different applications.
1:49:14The first time we made our little
1:49:16fitness group on WhatsApp, it was about
1:49:17how many calories you could burn.
1:49:19>> And that was what awarded you the points
1:49:21and won the competition. Didn't last
1:49:22long.
1:49:24>> Didn't last long for a number of
1:49:26reasons. Kind of toxic, unfair, because
1:49:28I have I weigh more than anyone in the
1:49:29group, so I burn more calories just by
1:49:31standing up. Um, and then it moved to
1:49:32this this idea of consistency. How do
1:49:34you think about what is better? Is it
1:49:36better to be consistent or is it better
1:49:37to be something else?
1:49:40>> I feel like there there's this story
1:49:41that people tell themselves a lot which
1:49:43is they want to do the big impressive
1:49:44thing, you know, like you want to do um
1:49:46you want to run a marathon, you want to
1:49:48do a week-l long silent meditation
1:49:50retreat, you want to, you know, write
1:49:51the bestselling book, whatever. And I I
1:49:53think about it as this balance between
1:49:55consistency and intensity. So intensity
1:49:59is a good story. It's I I ran the
1:50:02marathon. I did the silent meditation
1:50:03retreat. consistency actually makes
1:50:06progress. You know, it's I meditate for
1:50:07five minutes each day. I run, you know,
1:50:09three days a week or whatever. And so,
1:50:11people need consistency more than they
1:50:13need intensity. And in fact, what I
1:50:16would say is
1:50:18consistency enlarges ability.
1:50:20Consistency enlarges ability. It's the
1:50:23act of showing up consistently that
1:50:25builds your capacity to do something,
1:50:28that fosters the skill development and
1:50:30growth that you want. And so showing up,
1:50:33even if it's just in a small way, is the
1:50:35way that you actually create the
1:50:37opportunity to do something more intense
1:50:39or more impressive down the line.
1:50:42I also think that there's this
1:50:45deep important lesson that comes from
1:50:48appreciating consistency and what's
1:50:50required there. Consistency
1:50:54is often adaptability. It's flexibility.
1:50:57There's this there's this story about
1:50:58like mental toughness and being discip
1:51:00like being a disciplined person that um
1:51:03that we tell ourselves that's something
1:51:04like you know I grind to make sure this
1:51:06happens. I will I will you know make it
1:51:08happen no matter what the circumstances
1:51:10like that the mentally tough person
1:51:12pushes through regardless of what they
1:51:14face. But I think that in real life a
1:51:16lot of the time consistency is actually
1:51:18being flexible. It's being adaptable.
1:51:19You know if you don't have enough energy
1:51:21you do the easier version. If you don't
1:51:22have enough time you do the short
1:51:23version. You find a way to not throw up
1:51:25a zero that day. you find a way to show
1:51:27up even if it's not ideal. And that is
1:51:30actually being very mentally tough. And
1:51:32so the the adaptable person is the one
1:51:36that um what's that line? It's uh when
1:51:39the storm came, the oak tree fought it
1:51:40and broke, but the willow bent and
1:51:42survived. And so it's like you need a
1:51:44way to manage the storms of life and
1:51:46bend with them while still showing up.
1:51:49If you purely fight against it, you
1:51:51think that you'd think that being tough,
1:51:53that being mentally tough is like, I'm
1:51:55gonna make sure this happens. But it
1:51:57actually makes you somewhat brittle. You
1:51:59know, you need it to be a certain way.
1:52:01And when you need life to be a certain
1:52:03way to succeed, you become held hostage
1:52:06by the situation.
1:52:08>> You know, you need it to be just like
1:52:09that. But if in fact you can be
1:52:11adaptable and you can be flexible, now
1:52:13you are actually more resilient. Um, and
1:52:15so I think there's a a balance to strike
1:52:17there. and it it feeds into the
1:52:19consistency that will ultimately uh
1:52:21enlarge your ability.
1:52:22>> I think this is such an important point
1:52:24that I don't often hear people talk
1:52:25about. It reminds me of my friend. My
1:52:27friend, one of my best friends, he has a
1:52:29tendency to feel like he's cracked
1:52:31fitness. And what tends to happen is
1:52:33he'll work out and go to the gym for
1:52:35like 3 months and he'll then announce
1:52:36that he's finally cracked it like the
1:52:39consistency, the motivation. And the
1:52:40minute he does that is like 30 days
1:52:43before he falls off again because I
1:52:44think I think he gets complacent. Life
1:52:46is going to happen. And I remember
1:52:47saying to him one one year, I mean, I've
1:52:48known him for 15 years now. I was like,
1:52:50um, the thing I've come to learn about
1:52:52the gym and fitness is that you never
1:52:54crack it. And actually, the mindset that
1:52:55every single day I could fall off and
1:52:58that life happens has helped me be
1:53:01consistent. Whereas a version of me in
1:53:032017 set this ridiculous goal, which was
1:53:06I was going to go to the gym every
1:53:07single day without fail. And then five
1:53:09months in where life happened and I
1:53:11missed a day, my motivations was gone
1:53:13and I fell off. You see this a lot with
1:53:16top performers in in many different
1:53:17domains, which is it's not that they
1:53:19don't make mistakes or they don't slip
1:53:21up. Everybody slips up, but they tend to
1:53:23get back on track quickly. And so really
1:53:26what you need is not a perfect plan or
1:53:29like a system that never fails. What you
1:53:31need is a good plan for getting back on
1:53:32track. You need if the reclaiming of a
1:53:35habit is fast, the breaking of it
1:53:37doesn't matter that much. You get to the
1:53:38end of the year and it's just like a
1:53:39little blip on the radar, but you need a
1:53:41good plan for getting back on track
1:53:43quickly. So, I I think that uh some of
1:53:45the balance, some of the some of the
1:53:47strategy is actually knowing what to do
1:53:49when you fail.
1:53:50>> Yeah.
1:53:51>> Um and if you if you figure that out,
1:53:53then uh you're in a good position to
1:53:54bounce back quickly.
1:53:55>> Funnily enough, when I fail, when I fall
1:53:57off my gym workout or whatever, what I
1:53:59do is I I set the display picture on my
1:54:01iPhone to red. And I guess this is a
1:54:03point of self-awareness. It just reminds
1:54:05me that we've currently fallen off. That
1:54:06means every time I look at my phone,
1:54:07it's a reminder that this is code red.
1:54:10>> Wow, that's great. What a strong visual
1:54:12sign. Yeah. And that I need to start
1:54:14doing the small steps, doing the [ __ ]
1:54:15workouts again,
1:54:17>> you know. So, I have this um I have this
1:54:18little theory that the secret to winning
1:54:21is actually learning how to lose. It's
1:54:22that the secret to winning is knowing
1:54:24how to lose. Um and what I mean is that
1:54:26it's knowing how to handle a loss. It's
1:54:29knowing how to rebound and bounce back
1:54:31from that. I think that I learned it
1:54:34through sports. I don't think sports is
1:54:35the only way you can learn it. I think
1:54:36probably anything that you do with some
1:54:38level of public visibility could teach
1:54:40you. you know, musical performance or
1:54:41being in a fitness group with your
1:54:42friends or there's lots of ways you do
1:54:44it, speaking publicly.
1:54:45>> But one thing about sports is that
1:54:48you're going to fail in front of the
1:54:49rest of the team, you know, like the
1:54:51ball will come to you'll start make the
1:54:52strikeout to end the game or like you
1:54:54know, you go uh into the gym and work
1:54:56out with the team and like you miss a
1:54:57lift or you're the weak one or whatever.
1:54:59Like that doesn't feel good, but then
1:55:00you realize life moves on and you got to
1:55:02go on to the next set and you have to
1:55:03show up again the next time. And each
1:55:05little instance where there's like a
1:55:07little failure like that is practice for
1:55:10you to bounce back again. And I think
1:55:12it's important to have something in life
1:55:14that's like that that's teaching you how
1:55:16to respond to failure. That you're
1:55:18learning how to lose and how to bounce
1:55:20back from a loss so that you can
1:55:21ultimately win. I got to the point at
1:55:23the end of my career um my senior year
1:55:26where I was basically like listen I
1:55:28don't want to lose but if we're going to
1:55:30lose I'd rather it be me. I'd rather be
1:55:32out there. Give it put it on my
1:55:33shoulders. I can take the loss, you
1:55:34know, I can I can handle it. I I'll give
1:55:36you everything I have to try to get us
1:55:37to win, but if we lose, like, I'll be
1:55:39able to bounce back from it. And I think
1:55:41that that ended up serving me really
1:55:42well in my entrepreneurial career
1:55:44because stuff is never going to go your
1:55:46way all the time. Um, and you need to be
1:55:48able to try, be willing to try things
1:55:51and be willing to sometimes look foolish
1:55:53because of them and still find a way to
1:55:56show back up the next time.
1:55:57>> Reminds me of watching Roger Fedra's
1:56:00commencement speech. He's arguably the
1:56:02best tennis player of all time. And
1:56:03shockingly, in his commencement speech,
1:56:04I don't know if you saw it, he talks
1:56:06about how in his career he's missed
1:56:09something like 47% of the points. So,
1:56:11he's the best to ever do it. And he's he
1:56:14only in his career has won 53% of the
1:56:18points, which means that half the time
1:56:20he's taking L's. But the difference is
1:56:22what he does when he takes the L and not
1:56:25allowing that L that that missed point
1:56:27to compound into what his next shot. M
1:56:29and I was in LA with my friends for my
1:56:31birthday. My friend Ash, who's had the
1:56:33most paddle training. We were playing
1:56:35paddle. We do, that's what we do
1:56:36basically all the time when we see each
1:56:37other, our group of friends. He'd had
1:56:39the most paddle training. He's been in
1:56:41Spain with a coach. But when he lost a
1:56:45point, he would then start losing easy
1:56:47points. And there's this photo of me
1:56:48watching him play and I'm like, "What
1:56:49the hell's going on with him?" Like,
1:56:50he's the best. He's meant to be the best
1:56:51player. He's got the most practice, most
1:56:53repetitions. But when he loses a point,
1:56:55this downward spiral takes place where
1:56:57he just starts missing easy shots. So
1:56:58when he sat down, I told him about Rod
1:57:00Roer Fedra's thing. And I gave him this
1:57:02little idea in his head to to handle the
1:57:04loss. And I said to him, when you lose
1:57:06the point, say in your head, that point
1:57:08doesn't matter. I'm going to win this
1:57:10game anyway because I am the better
1:57:12player. And I still get goosebumps when
1:57:14I say it because he went from being the
1:57:16fifth best in our group of five to
1:57:18beating all of us
1:57:19>> immediately.
1:57:21>> And there's there's it's so funny cuz my
1:57:23girlfriend and everyone here knows like
1:57:24he was like dancing through the house
1:57:25the same day. He beat all of us. I had
1:57:27never been beaten by him. I have a pal
1:57:28in my garden. Like he beat me
1:57:30immediately. And all it was was was
1:57:33making sure that when he took an L, he
1:57:35didn't spiral into his emot the
1:57:37emotional center of his brain and start
1:57:38catastrophizing which he's susceptible
1:57:40to if you know him. He went straight
1:57:42back into the prefrontal cortex, the
1:57:43rational center of his brain. And he and
1:57:44he said he and you know he's posted
1:57:46about it online and I actually part of
1:57:47my Asia tour recently was I showed all
1:57:49the videos and all the WhatsApp messages
1:57:50of this whole thing happening. But it
1:57:52just goes to show that actually it's how
1:57:53you take the L.
1:57:55>> I love those mindset shifts. It's just a
1:57:57it's living life with a next play
1:57:59mentality,
1:58:00>> you know? It's like you don't let the
1:58:01last play dictate you or like ruin you.
1:58:03It's we have to move on and make the
1:58:05next best choice now. We have to we have
1:58:06to live for the next play. Um
1:58:08>> and how much emotion just like ruins our
1:58:10training.
1:58:11>> Sure.
1:58:11>> You know.
1:58:12>> Yeah. I feel like a lot of this is
1:58:13there's a great book Inner Game of
1:58:15Tennis um that came out many many years
1:58:17ago. Might even be 50 at this point. Um
1:58:19but it's basically all about this. It's
1:58:21about not getting in your head. And it's
1:58:23it's specifically for tennis, but it
1:58:25applies to life, you know. It's it's
1:58:27just about um yeah, it's moving on and
1:58:29having this next play mentality.
1:58:30>> So David Braford said that to me as well
1:58:32about one of his main objectives when he
1:58:34had the cycling team was to get them not
1:58:35to think about the race while they were
1:58:38on the race. And he said, I think it was
1:58:39Chris Chris Hoy or someone. He said my
1:58:41entire training with Chris Hoy was
1:58:43getting him to stop thinking about the
1:58:45current race he was in. and that when
1:58:47Chris was hit his personal bests, he
1:58:49would get off the the bike and have no
1:58:51recollection of cycling.
1:58:53>> He goes to the point that it was like he
1:58:55was asleep on the bike because when the
1:58:57alternative meant that Chris would start
1:58:58thinking about his time and then cycling
1:59:00too hard and exhausting himself and fall
1:59:02out of his his training. So, fascinating
1:59:04fascinating um you talk about daily
1:59:06mental mindsets as well. Is it important
1:59:09to adopt a particular daily mental
1:59:10mindset? Well, I um I had this thought
1:59:13that uh
1:59:15one time I had this thought that it
1:59:16would be cool to be able to hire a
1:59:17mental performance coach who just did
1:59:19one thing. So you you hire this coach
1:59:21and then they call you up each morning
1:59:22like 8 a.m. or something and they give
1:59:24you like a five minute pep talk, you
1:59:26know, or just they give you like a five
1:59:28minute mindset shift, just something
1:59:29little kind of like what you said to
1:59:30your friend, you know, and just like you
1:59:32get this little mindset shift to reset
1:59:34your day and go into it with momentum
1:59:36and they hang up and you just go do your
1:59:38thing. Um, and you know, I I couldn't
1:59:40find anybody who, you know, could do
1:59:42that, but I've been working on this
1:59:43little project where I've been trying to
1:59:44figure out how to do it. And so, I came
1:59:46up with, it sounds almost kind of silly,
1:59:48but I'm really excited about it. I came
1:59:49up with this Atomic Habits daily
1:59:51calendar. And the idea is just, it's
1:59:54actually like a blend of Atomic Habits,
1:59:55Principles, and 321, which is my weekly
1:59:57newsletter. And I just have like one
1:59:59little mindset shift that's on each
2:00:01page. And it's just one page for each
2:00:02day of the year. You just look at it,
2:00:04read that page, boom, go into your day.
2:00:06And like it's just intended to be a
2:00:07little mindset shift. Anyway, it's a
2:00:08it's just a small thing, but I like I
2:00:10like the idea of priming yourself to
2:00:12start the day in the right way. And um I
2:00:15don't know. I didn't think that I would
2:00:16be excited about a calendar, but I'm I'm
2:00:18kind of excited about it. I kind of feel
2:00:20like it it could be good. So,
2:00:21>> is it coming out?
2:00:22>> Yes, it'll be out in uh it'll be out
2:00:24soon. Yeah.
2:00:24>> Okay. And where where would we find
2:00:26that? Do we sign up to the
2:00:27>> uh It's on Amazon. You can you can go
2:00:28there or you know, you can go to
2:00:29jamesclair.com and you'll you'll find it
2:00:31there. But um yeah,
2:00:33>> so this book, the Atomic Habits
2:00:35Workbook, Simple Exercises for Building
2:00:37the Life You Want is now out. It came
2:00:39out this week. What is this the
2:00:42distinction between these two books? If
2:00:43I read Atomic Habits already,
2:00:45>> let me have a book. All right. So, um
2:00:48Atomic Habits is
2:00:52the culmination of basically 10 years of
2:00:54work and effort for me. Um, it's like I
2:00:58my objective was to write the best book
2:01:01that's ever been written on habits. Now,
2:01:03I don't know that I achieved that or
2:01:04not. That's for the readers to decide,
2:01:06but I don't think you're ever going to
2:01:08just stumble into that result. You know,
2:01:09like you have to at least strive for it.
2:01:11Um, and so that was the hope is that
2:01:13everything that you would could possibly
2:01:16need to know about building good habits
2:01:17and breaking bad ones should be in
2:01:19Atomic Habits. So then you're like,
2:01:21okay, why would I need a workbook? Um,
2:01:23but uh what I've learned over the last
2:01:26seven years of this being out and
2:01:27selling 25 million copies is that people
2:01:30always need more tangible practical help
2:01:32with implementing their habits. So,
2:01:35Atomic Habits is the full guide and the
2:01:38philosophy and the approach on how to do
2:01:40it. Then you finish this book and you
2:01:42sit there and you say, "All right,
2:01:43great. I have some habits I want to
2:01:45build. How do I do that?" And the
2:01:47exercises in the workbook are intended
2:01:49to help you do that. They help you look
2:01:50at your environment and figure out how
2:01:52do I optimize it? They help you look at
2:01:54your goals and how do I translate it
2:01:55into a system. They help you look at
2:01:57your desired identity and how are my
2:01:59habits reinforcing it. So it's just a
2:02:01series of exercises that help you apply
2:02:03and implement the ideas from atomic
2:02:05habits.
2:02:05>> The great thing about the way that you
2:02:06write is it's so unbelievably
2:02:08accessible. So unbelievably accessible
2:02:10in the context which means that you
2:02:12don't need to be a scientist or an
2:02:14expert to understand the concepts. And I
2:02:16think that's why the book has been
2:02:17atomic habits has been so unbelievably
2:02:18successful. This book, the workbook,
2:02:20follows in the same vein. It allows
2:02:22people at all levels of their knowledge
2:02:24of habits and intellect to get going and
2:02:27to start sort of holding themselves
2:02:28accountable. I'd say accountability is a
2:02:30huge part of this. I kind of see
2:02:31elements of that fitness group I
2:02:33described, fitness blockchain, just
2:02:34because you're reflecting and you're
2:02:36writing down what happened. And um like
2:02:38you said earlier about how just
2:02:40journaling increases the likelihood of a
2:02:43behavior. Um this book will raise your
2:02:45self-awareness. Yes, that's a good
2:02:47that's actually a great summary of it. I
2:02:49think it uh it makes you more aware of
2:02:51your habits and your environment and
2:02:53what you're trying to do specifically
2:02:54rather than just understanding the
2:02:55concepts.
2:02:57>> James, thank you. Thank you for um
2:02:58changing so many people's lives. You
2:03:00must hear this all the time, but what a
2:03:02remarkable remarkable um impact you must
2:03:05have had on so many people you'll never
2:03:08get to meet. Getting them to quit habits
2:03:10that would have otherwise been fatal for
2:03:12them. You know, my dad is a prime
2:03:13example of someone who was smoking for
2:03:1620 odd years of his life. He starts
2:03:17reading about these habit cycles in your
2:03:19work, but in other people's work as
2:03:20well, and he's quit smoking and that's
2:03:22probably extended his life to some
2:03:24degree. And that's one such example of
2:03:26I'd say 25 million because I know the
2:03:28Atomic Habits has sold 25 million, but
2:03:30you've reached many many many millions
2:03:32of people through your newsletter as
2:03:34well, 321. um which is the I mean the
2:03:37newsletter has kind of created a
2:03:39blueprint for anyone that writes a
2:03:41newsletter. Frankly, I think everybody
2:03:43looks up to your work and what you've
2:03:44built as the the framework for starting
2:03:46their own newsletters. And you know, you
2:03:49never get you'll never get to see the
2:03:50downstream impact of the work you've
2:03:52done. But on behalf of everybody who's
2:03:54had their life ch changed because of the
2:03:56hard work you've put in and your
2:03:57obsession and your focus and your
2:03:59passion and these incredible works of
2:04:01art that you've written and that you
2:04:02didn't rush. Um, thank you and thank you
2:04:05on behalf of myself because your h your
2:04:06work has been super formative in how I
2:04:08think about business, how I think about
2:04:10my team. Um, and many of the phrases
2:04:12that we use in our office every single
2:04:13day to build the companies we've built
2:04:14have come from your work as well.
2:04:16Everybody needs to go out. I mean, if
2:04:18you don't have Atomic Habits, then I
2:04:19don't know what you've been doing with
2:04:20your life. But, um, now that the Atomic
2:04:22[clears throat] Habits workbook is here,
2:04:24you now have a much more um,
2:04:26self-awareness inducing, practical,
2:04:29hands-on framework for implementing some
2:04:31of the stuff you've read in Atomic
2:04:32Habits. Now, I'm going to link both of
2:04:34them below so everybody can go grab
2:04:35them. But also, your James' newsletter
2:04:37is phenomenal. So, I'll link that below
2:04:39as well. We do have a closing tradition
2:04:41on this podcast where the last guest
2:04:42leaves a question for the next guest not
2:04:43knowing who they're leaving it for.
2:04:45>> Question that has been left for you.
2:04:47Dear next person in the chat,
2:04:50what do you believe is the best way to
2:04:53unify people of differing or even
2:04:56conflicting beliefs?
2:04:59Let me know your thoughts. Best Kamal
2:05:01Harris. I think the best way is to scale
2:05:03it down. You know, if you say, "How can
2:05:05we have a more unified nation, it's big,
2:05:07it's vague, it's it's almost impossible,
2:05:09it's like an intractable level." But if
2:05:11you scale it down now, you can come up
2:05:13with things. You know, how can you have
2:05:14a more unified neighborhood? You could
2:05:16start a book club or do a block party or
2:05:18you can come up with all kinds of things
2:05:19that you could do. And what you find is
2:05:21that in many cases in life, problems are
2:05:24intractable at a certain level, at a
2:05:25certain scale. And if you shift what
2:05:28level you're at, suddenly it reveals
2:05:30itself and there's a new solution. And
2:05:32so I think that is obviously true uh
2:05:34with big picture things like like the
2:05:36question I was asked but it's also true
2:05:38for your habits. You know if you think
2:05:40about your life in general and you say
2:05:41how can I have a better life or how can
2:05:43I figure out my purpose? How can I
2:05:44figure out you know how to have a life
2:05:46of meaning? These are big hard
2:05:48questions. They're sometimes they're
2:05:49almost intractable. They're too vague.
2:05:51They're too broad. But if you can scale
2:05:53it down and say how can I live a good
2:05:55day today or how can I have a good week?
2:05:58How can I have um you know a good next
2:06:00hour? how can I make this minute as
2:06:02perfect as possible? Well, those those
2:06:04levels are much more achievable. And so,
2:06:06I think if you scale your habits down to
2:06:08a level that's more solvable, you'll
2:06:10often see that there's a path forward
2:06:12there.
2:06:12>> What's interesting with your
2:06:13neighborhood analogy as well is that
2:06:15neighborhoods are interconnected.
2:06:17>> So, if I if I focus on making my
2:06:18neighborhood good, then that kind of
2:06:21just crosses over with the next
2:06:22neighborhood. Like thinking about my
2:06:23street where I used to live
2:06:24>> and so if that neighborhood becomes
2:06:26good, it's going to then hit the next
2:06:27domino, which is the neighborhood next
2:06:28door. and then eventually called
2:06:30>> which is also true for your personal
2:06:32life. You know your each unit of time
2:06:34each little habit is connected. You know
2:06:36you put your habits together and you
2:06:37kind of end up with this system of
2:06:38behaviors that influence your day and
2:06:40your week. So mastering this hour makes
2:06:43the next hour a little bit better as
2:06:44well.
2:06:45>> There's I ultimately chose the phrase
2:06:47atomic habits for three reasons. There's
2:06:49there's three meanings to the word
2:06:50atomic. The first is tiny or small like
2:06:52an atom which obviously I think your
2:06:53habit should be small and easy to do.
2:06:55The second meaning is the one we're
2:06:57talking about now and the one people
2:06:58often forget which is an atom is a
2:07:00fundamentally unit in a larger system.
2:07:02So atoms build in molecules, molecules
2:07:04build in compounds and so on. And your
2:07:06habits are kind of like the little units
2:07:08of your day. You know, collectively you
2:07:09put them together and you have your
2:07:10daily routine. And then the third
2:07:12meaning is the source of immense energy
2:07:14or power. And so if you put all three of
2:07:16these together, you kind of understand
2:07:18the narrative arc of the book, which is
2:07:20you make changes that are small and easy
2:07:22to do. You layer them together like
2:07:24units in a larger system and
2:07:26collectively you get this powerful
2:07:28remarkable result as a process and so or
2:07:30as a consequence and that is the idea
2:07:32behind atomic habits. You make these
2:07:34small changes and it's not just one it's
2:07:36like a hundred or a thousand of them and
2:07:38collectively they come together to
2:07:39create this powerful impressive life.
2:07:42>> Powerful impressive life. Do you think
2:07:45that we should all be aiming at this is
2:07:47a bit of an interesting word but
2:07:50happiness is that should that is that
2:07:52the north star that our habits should
2:07:54ladder up towards or fulfillment or
2:07:55whatever one might say or meaning
2:07:58for first of all I think we should
2:08:00distinguish between happiness and
2:08:01meaning you know or happiness and
2:08:03purpose or something fulfillment I don't
2:08:05think they're necessarily the same you
2:08:06know like there are many moments in my
2:08:08life when I am happy uh and that can be
2:08:10in the moment and a lot of the most
2:08:12meaningful things that I worked on you
2:08:13know atomic habits was one of the most
2:08:15meaningful projects that I've worked on.
2:08:16It seems to have made a big difference
2:08:17for a lot of people or helped a lot of
2:08:19people. I feel great about that. But I
2:08:21wasn't necessarily happy every minute
2:08:22that I was working on it. You know, like
2:08:24it was it was quite difficult in lots of
2:08:25different times and it took a long time
2:08:27and it was arduous and so on, but it
2:08:28provides a lot of meaning. So, I
2:08:30definitely think it was worth it even if
2:08:31I wasn't always happy in the moment. So,
2:08:33I don't know that you should necessarily
2:08:35optimize for any of that all the time.
2:08:37Um, you know, I don't think your habits
2:08:38will lead you to some place where you
2:08:40are just permanently happy. Um, but
2:08:45they will definitely take you on a
2:08:46journey where happiness is part of it
2:08:48and where meaning can be part of it. Um,
2:08:51and there are lots of other things that
2:08:52are parts of life too. But, uh, yeah, I
2:08:55I think that you will be well served to
2:08:57invest in them for sure.
2:08:58>> James, thank you so much. It's been
2:08:59>> Thank you. And thank you so much for
2:09:00saying those kind things. That's uh
2:09:01that's very nice of you. Um, I have been
2:09:06incredibly
2:09:07lucky and blown away by the reception to
2:09:09the book and um, it just feels it feels
2:09:13great to know that people are finding it
2:09:14useful. You know, all I wanted to do was
2:09:16try to be useful and helpful and um, I
2:09:18appreciate you saying that and I'm I'm
2:09:20grateful that many other people have
2:09:21found it helpful as well.
2:09:22>> Yeah, I don't think you'll ever realize,
2:09:25you know, you see 25 million people have
2:09:26bought the book, but it's much bigger
2:09:28than that. It's it's billions of people
2:09:29have been impacted by that because
2:09:30everybody is like a like a pebble thrown
2:09:33into the ocean, right? There's these
2:09:34ripple effects that go on and it changes
2:09:35their professional life, their personal
2:09:36life, their health, their friendships,
2:09:37relationships. So, it's unbelievable.
2:09:39Thank you, James. Thank you. Thank you.
2:09:41[music]
2:09:44This is something that I've made for
2:09:46you. I realize that the Dio audience are
2:09:48strivals
2:09:52that we want to accomplish. And one of
2:09:53the things I've learned is that when you
2:09:56aim at the big big big goal, it can feel
2:09:58incredibly psychologically uncomfortable
2:10:01because it's kind of like being stood at
2:10:03the foot of Mount Everest and looking
2:10:04upwards. The way to accomplish your
2:10:06goals is by breaking them down into tiny
2:10:09small steps. And we call this in our
2:10:11team the 1%. And actually this
2:10:13philosophy is highly responsible for
2:10:15much of our success here. So, what we've
2:10:17done so that you at home can accomplish
2:10:19any big goal that you have is we've made
2:10:22these 1% diaries and we released these
2:10:24last year and they all sold out. So, I
2:10:27asked my team over and over again to
2:10:28bring the diaries back, but also to
2:10:30introduce some new colors and to make
2:10:31some minor tweaks to the diary. So, now
2:10:33we have a better range for you. So, if
2:10:38you have a big goal in mind and you need
2:10:39a framework and a process and some
2:10:41motivation, then I highly recommend you
2:10:44get one of these diaries before they all
2:10:46sell out once again. And you can get
2:10:47yours now at the diary.com where you can
2:10:49get 20% off our Black Friday bundle. And
2:10:52if you want the link, the link is in the
2:10:54description below. [music]
2:11:05[music] Heat. Heat.

About this transcript

This page contains the full transcript of The Man Who Wrote Atomic Habits: Your Goals Are Quietly Restricting Your Happiness | James Clear by The Diary Of A CEO, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 30,807 words across 4,247 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

What you can do with it

Use the transcript to take notes, quote the speaker, build a study guide, generate a summary with ChatGPT or Claude via the YouTube Summary tool, or export it as a timed subtitle file with YouTube to SRT. You can also re-open it in the transcriber to choose a caption track available on the video.

Free YouTube transcript tool

YouTube2Text is a free YouTube transcript generator — no signup, no daily limit. Paste any YouTube link and get the full transcript instantly, with timestamps, click-to-jump, caption language selection, AI prompts for ChatGPT, Claude, and Gemini, and exports to TXT, SRT, VTT, or Markdown.