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The Lizzie Borden Podcast - Episode Two: Sarah Miller on the Borden Murders — Transcript

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0:00Lizzy Bordon took an axe, gave her
0:02mother 40 wax when she saw what she had
0:05done, gave her father 41. Like that.
0:09This is the Lizzie Bordon podcast with
0:11your host, Richard Barracks. Episode
0:13two.
0:15[Music]
0:48Welcome to the Lizzy Bordon podcast, a
0:50Nine Muses Books production. Episode
0:53two, Sarah Miller on the Bordon murders.
0:57[Music]
1:02Hi, this is Richard Barren and welcome
1:04to the second episode of the Lizzie
1:06Bordon podcast. In our first episode, I
1:08explored that piece of dog roll that
1:10almost everybody knows. Lizzie Bordon
1:12took an axe, etc. As I explained,
1:15everything in this little song is wrong,
1:18either inaccurate or unproved. So going
1:20to that rhyme as a source of information
1:22about the Bordon murders of 1892 in
1:25particular and Lizzie Bordon in general
1:27is a complete waste of time.
1:29Unfortunately, this dog roll contains
1:31most people's sole knowledge about the
1:33Bordon murders. So what I've decided to
1:36do in the early episodes of this podcast
1:38is to lay out the known facts of Lizzie
1:41Bordon's life and times as well as the
1:43murders, the investigation, and the
1:45trial. This will amount to a beginner's
1:47guide to Lizzie Bordon, or as I call it,
1:49a Lizzie Bordon primer. Joining me today
1:51is Sarah Miller, the author of The
1:53Bordon Murders, Lizzie Bordon and the
1:55Trial of the Century, published this
1:57year by Random House Children's Books.
1:59Sarah Miller is the author of two
2:01historical fictional novels, Miss
2:03Spitfire, Reaching Helen Keller, which
2:05was called an accomplished debut in a
2:07starred review from Book List, and was
2:09named an ALA also
2:14crown about the Romanoffs held as
2:17fascinating in a starred review from
2:19Kirkus reviews and named an ALA YALSA
2:23best book for young adults. The Bordon
2:25Murders is her first non-fiction book.
2:28Today we are going to meet Sarah and
2:30talk about her book, The Bordon Murders,
2:32which I can't speak more highly about.
2:34It is a clear and concise telling of the
2:36Fall River tragedy and the subsequent
2:38trial. Sarah's objective approach and
2:41historical precision makes her book the
2:43perfect introduction to anyone
2:45interested in Lizzie Bordon. The Lizzie
2:47Bordon primer will start with episode 3.
2:50But first, let's meet Sarah Miller,
2:52author of The Bordon Murders, Lizzie
2:54Bordon, and the Trial of the Century.
2:59Hey. Hi, Sarah. Hi. Hi. How are you
3:01doing? Pretty super. How are you? Fine.
3:02Have you uh have you found the murder
3:04weapon yet on on Second Street?
3:07No. But is it weird that I have a
3:09hatchet in my car? It's only weird if
3:12the the handle is snapped off. Well, the
3:15handle is cracked, but it's not broken
3:17yet. Okay. Many Lizzie Bordon
3:20investigators often go out there and
3:22they, you know, look both ways to make
3:23sure no one's looking. And then they go
3:25buy a hatchet and then they try it out
3:26in the backyard just to see what it's
3:28like. I might have done that. Yeah.
3:29Okay.
3:31So, we're talking about your book, The
3:33Bordon Murders, Lizzie Bordon and the
3:35Trial of the Century. Uh, why did you
3:37decide at this point after writing about
3:39Helen Keller and writing about the
3:41Romanoffs? Why did you decide to write a
3:43book about Lizzie Bordon? I don't know
3:45exactly how it happened. I can remember
3:48reading about Lizzie Bordon like 20
3:50years ago when I was pushing a cart
3:52through the library and supposed to be
3:53putting books away. I had laid uh Allan
3:57Brown, I think his name is. Arnold
3:59Brown. Um his book, Arnold Brown, that's
4:01the guy. I laid his book open to the
4:03inquest testimony on my cart. So, as I'm
4:06pushing along, I was reading questions
4:08and answers. Um so, I I know I was
4:10interested in Lizzy that long ago, but
4:12it totally creeped me out. And then I
4:14had to sleep with the lights on for like
4:15a week. The inquest testimony was
4:17probably the only part of his book that
4:18had any truth to it. Yes, I agree. Um,
4:23how how I got back toward Lizzy, I don't
4:26know. How I got to a point where I could
4:28read it without sleeping with the lights
4:30on, I don't know, but I did. And the
4:32more I looked around, the more I looked
4:36deeper into primary sources and found
4:39out how little is actually known about
4:41Lizzy herself and then looked at what we
4:45think about Lizzie and how we view
4:47Lizzie. That's when I kind of went,
4:50"Wow, there's a huge gap between these
4:53two polls. How? Why?" And that's what
4:56got me into learning more and more. Was
4:59this before the publication of Parallel
5:01Lives by the Full River Historical
5:03Society? I think so. Yes. Because when
5:06that book came out, I remember like,
5:08"Oh, I need that. I I need to scrape a
5:10lot of dollars together and get that
5:12book." Well, you know what? There's a
5:13there's so detailed and comprehensive
5:16and the the information is spread about
5:19Lizzie is spread throughout the book as
5:22it pertains to various pieces of the
5:25culture and the history that somebody
5:27who sits down and says I just want to
5:28read about Lizzie Bordon they can't
5:30achieve that with that book they can
5:32learn more than they will ever learn
5:34about Lizzy with that book and it is
5:36also a very good history of Fall River
5:39especially from Lizzie Bordon's time
5:40period that it was written by
5:42historians, Fall River historians. So,
5:45they took the opportunity to also write
5:47an excellent book about Fall River
5:49history. And Fall River does have a very
5:50rich history that's worth reading about.
5:53You know, another quality of your book
5:54that I admired very much was the
5:56objectivity. You limited yourself to
5:58Lizzy and the crime and the trial and uh
6:01you were probably a lot more objective
6:04than most books that I've read. A lot of
6:06books about Lizzie Bordon tend to try to
6:09make money by trying to solve the case.
6:12So you have your Emma Did It books and
6:14your Bridget Did It books and your Uncle
6:15John Did It books and those books uh
6:18they tend to to be biased towards their
6:21own theory rather than just include a
6:24chapter of possible theories. Yeah. It
6:26dictates what they emphasize and what
6:28they leave out because they have to. If
6:30you're going to present a theory, that's
6:32what you have to do. You have to say
6:33this one little thing that everybody
6:34overlooked. the key to everything. And
6:38there's probably some little piece
6:40somewhere that is that key, but I don't
6:42think we found it. You were very precise
6:45and you have an introduction where you
6:47explain your working methodology. I was
6:50wondering if you could comment a little
6:52bit on this. I'm referring to stuff like
6:54when you were doing correction of
6:56spellings, you know, like clue being
6:59spelled as cl e w e w and you being you
7:03finding different varants on quotes like
7:06oh Mrs. Churchill do come over. you you
7:09indicated the choices that you had to
7:10make and at some point you said
7:12something very eloquent in the book
7:14where you go I I realize that I could
7:16openly say we don't know what happened
7:20that but you can present as an historian
7:22you could present these two subjective
7:24accounts could you say a little bit
7:26about that yeah the the the continuity
7:29was something that I kind of stumbled
7:31upon when I started you know actually
7:33typing things up and putting things side
7:36by side is for example inquest testimony
7:39versus preliminary hearing testimony
7:41versus the trial. The main witnesses who
7:43are on the scene initially like Mrs.
7:45Churchill, uh, Dr. Bowen, Alice Russell,
7:48they all say they all convey pretty much
7:51the same information every time, but
7:53they say it maybe a little differently.
7:55And even if they say it the same way,
7:57like in the case of, oh, Mrs. Churchill,
7:59do come over. Somebody has killed
8:00father. Two different people filling
8:03that role in the courtroom. And they
8:05punctuate things differently. they
8:07capitalize or don't capitalize the word
8:09father. So if you're writing a book and
8:12you're you're talking about these
8:13different events and quoting from these
8:15different events without mentioning that
8:17kind of thing, you look kind of like a
8:19sloppy idiot because spellings vary,
8:21punctuations vary, but that's just how
8:24it was. People were less stringent at
8:26the time. The murder happened in 1892 in
8:29August and the trial happened in 1893 in
8:32June. And in those intervening months, I
8:34guess was as the custom at the end of
8:36the year, um, police officers were
8:38promoted and so their ranks change. So
8:41if I refer to somebody as an officer in
8:44the beginning of the book and somebody
8:45the same somebody as a sergeant later
8:47on, it looks funny. So you have to say
8:50this is the reason. It's it's not
8:52actually a goof. It's just that things
8:55change as time passes. So it's almost as
8:58if as an historian, you're not
9:00presenting something as if it's an
9:01absolute fact. You're presenting
9:03something as if based on the artifacts
9:05that we have extent this is what we
9:08could approximate what happened right
9:11this is what's available to us like even
9:13the trial testimony itself well I'm not
9:16saying people are lying on the stand by
9:18any means I think virtually everyone who
9:21got up on the stand told the truth to
9:23the best of their ability the truth as
9:25they saw it whatever but people goof
9:28people misinterpret things there's no
9:30way to know what is completely accurate
9:34and what is skewed by somebody's
9:36opinions, by somebody's feelings, even
9:38by the newspaper articles they read in
9:40the months in between the event and the
9:42trial. In the decades since, people have
9:44studied this and have proven that
9:46depending on how you're questioned, your
9:48answers can change depending on what
9:50you've looked at in the media about this
9:52event that you were witness to. Your
9:55memories can change. Your memories are
9:56not solid things like, you know, a VHS
9:59tape that you stick in there and you
10:01just roll it. Roll it, roll it, and it's
10:02always the same. You're reassembling.
10:05And in spite of this, there is a, as you
10:07pointed out yourself, there is a large
10:09degree of consistency in the testimony
10:11that when you have Uncle John and
10:13Bridget testifying about what happened
10:16that morning before the murders, there
10:18there is a degree of consistency. So,
10:20tiny inconsistencies may not be
10:22significant, right? And the interesting
10:24thing is also the more fluid and
10:29straightforward a witness is and their
10:31style, the more you get an impression of
10:34consistency regardless of whether or not
10:36it exists. If you try to actually plot
10:39out the timing of everything Bridget
10:42says, and she was the star witness for
10:44the prosecution. I said she knows, you
10:46know, when everybody got up, when they
10:47brushed their teeth, when they latched
10:49or unlatched the screen door, but her
10:52testimony isn't perfect in the sense
10:55that you can plot it and everything else
10:57fits with it. There are gaps. There are
10:59things we go, "Well, the timing doesn't
11:01seem quite right there." Like, how long
11:02was she washing that window? How long
11:04was she clearing that table? Did it
11:06really take her 10 minutes to go out in
11:08the yard and be sick? Because of the way
11:11that she delivered that information,
11:13people took it as the bedrock of the
11:17events of that day. I'm aware that half
11:19of the inquest testimony is missing.
11:21Yes. Yeah. The the half that's missing
11:23includes Lizzie Bordon's only time that
11:26she testified under oath and that
11:28fortunately was printed in a newspaper
11:30and that that's how we have it. But the
11:32rest of the testimony that's in that
11:33half of the inquest is missing. And
11:35that's unfortunate because that was uh
11:37done within a week of the actual
11:39murders. That's when people's memories
11:40would have been the most fresh, right?
11:42That's like the primary primary sources
11:45source of all and it's gone. And
11:47Bridget's testimony is gone. And in
11:49Bridget's case, there is no newspaper to
11:51reconstruct from. But fortunately, the
11:53prosecutor Nolton said somewhere, I
11:56think he was writing maybe to the
11:57attorney general said he considered her
12:00preliminary hearing testimony virtually
12:02identical to what she'd said at the
12:04inquest. So, I mean, that's the best
12:06we've got. And and if he felt that way,
12:08like, all right, I I guess I'm going to
12:10trust him. Even though he was on the
12:12side of the uh the courtroom that I
12:14probably would not choose to sit on if I
12:16could go there, um I believe he was an
12:18honorable man, so I I trust his word.
12:20I'm I'm really pnikity. I want to get it
12:22right. I want to tell you what we know
12:25for sure and let you decide. That that
12:27was my whole outlook for this book. And
12:30there were times when looking at
12:32conflicting information, especially in
12:33the newspapers where I thought, I don't
12:35know. And I'd get all in a bind like I
12:38don't know which one to put. And it
12:39would dawn on me. I don't have to say
12:42this is the truth and this is the
12:43baloney. I could say here are two
12:46opposing pieces of information and we
12:49don't know which is correct. But I think
12:51that's important because it gives you a
12:53sense of the breadth of opinion and and
12:56information that was out there that
12:57people were trying to figure out where
13:00they stood on this case. They they had a
13:02lot to choose from. And to give that
13:04picture when you can't actually say this
13:07is the thing that happened, I think
13:08there's still value in that. So, in
13:10preparing for this book, it's clear that
13:13you've went through as much primary
13:15source material as you possibly could,
13:17and that includes the first uh police
13:20reports, uh police statements, the
13:22inquest testimony that we have, the
13:25preliminary hearings, the grand jury
13:27testimony, of course, is not available,
13:29but you read all uh I forgot how many
13:32thousands of pages the actual trial
13:34transcript is, but you you've went
13:36through all of it. I did. I think I
13:38tallied up all of that primary courtroom
13:40material is like 2500 pages or
13:42something. It's it's kind of awful to
13:46sit there and do it. But it did because
13:49it quickly became clear to me when I
13:51started looking at the newspapers like
13:53this is hoie. A lot of the stuff just
13:55right from the get-go is plain hoie. So,
13:58okay, what was really said? Regardless
14:00of whether the people were correct, what
14:03did they actually say? And then how did
14:06the newspapers interpret it? And I'm
14:08glad that I read them in in
14:09chronological order, too. That made a
14:11difference. If I had just started with
14:13the trial, I think I would have wrapped
14:15my head around it in a different way. I
14:17began with the witness statements and
14:19move chronologically forward from there,
14:21which allowed me to get a sense of the
14:23momentum of the story because things do
14:25change with Alice Russell in particular,
14:28who can remember almost nothing
14:29initially. And then by the time of the
14:32trial, 10 months later, one of her her
14:34account of um a visit she had from
14:36Lizzie the day before the murders feels
14:39like five pages of stenographers's
14:41paper. And I mean there small sheets of
14:42paper. I I get that. But still from
14:45Nolton saying initially, is there
14:46anything you remember when he sounds
14:49frustrated? We can't know because
14:51transcripts just don't give you that
14:53information to suddenly she's just
14:55rattling off this entire conversation
14:57and whole paragraphs is weird. makes you
14:59wonder what how, you know, maybe maybe
15:02she calmed down after the initial shock.
15:04Maybe she was able to piece it together,
15:06but it's it's a weird snowballing of of
15:10her story. And Alice Russell is a very
15:13important person in the story because it
15:15was her testimony about the dress, the
15:17burning of the dress that really kind of
15:19changed everything at the grand jury
15:21proceedings. But we don't know that for
15:23a fact because we don't have the actual
15:25transcript. We know that they
15:26reconveneed the grand jury to take Alice
15:28Russell's testimony and that may have
15:30made all the difference in sending
15:32Lizzie Bordon to trial in the Superior
15:34Court. The information that's available
15:35to us certainly makes it sound as if her
15:39information was the information that
15:40swayed them into indicting her. And I I
15:43assume that there's no evidence that
15:45Alice Russell and Lizzie Bordon ever
15:47spoke to each other again. Not that I'm
15:49aware of. So after the primary source
15:51material, you used a whole bunch of
15:53existing Lizzie Bordon books. Were there
15:55any that you considered to be the most
15:57important ones for your research? Those
15:59that were most useful to me tended to be
16:02like the Lizzie Bordon source book. You
16:05had David Kent. Yes. Which is, you know,
16:06just a compilation of newspaper
16:09articles. In terms of books with an
16:11actual narrative structure, I would have
16:14to say Kent again, I think, is the most
16:17objective. Although I I disagree with
16:18some of his interpretations of
16:21particular pieces of evidence, I I think
16:23he more than anybody else tried not to
16:26solve it, just tried to say what had
16:29happened. And I think he was more fair
16:31toward Lizzie Bordon herself than many
16:33other authors have been. And then of
16:35course there's Parallel Lives.
16:36Tremendous. that I mean that book
16:38changed my whole frame of reference
16:40about Lizzie Bordon herself and what
16:42kind of person that's when I started to
16:44see her as a person not a Halloween
16:46costume or a bobblehead because of the
16:48information about her later life and and
16:50how she interacted with people how she
16:52treated people you know and even when
16:54they describe photographs and the detail
16:57I remember one of Emma uh as a child
17:00talking about the the significance of
17:02you know the fabric and the pattern that
17:05that indicated in line with current
17:07fashion. Was she a was she behind? Was
17:10the jewelry what a girl of 12 would
17:12usually wear or was, you know, did that
17:14indicate something? It was just like,
17:16wow. You know, I would just look at a
17:18picture and say, "Oh, oh, that's Emma.
17:21Hey." So, two books that you mention you
17:23do caveat in the book that they're a bit
17:25misleading, but they're worth looking
17:27at. One is Edwin H. Porter's The Fall
17:30River Tragedy, and the other is Victoria
17:32Lincoln's A Private Disgrace, Lizzy
17:34Bordon by Daylight. Uh, could you
17:35elaborate on why you caveed that with
17:39the books maybe misleading? Is it
17:41Pearson or Porter? I get those two. It
17:44was Pearson that I get grumpy about.
17:46Pearson um written in the 1930s was an
17:49overview of the trial. He kind of he
17:52condensed he he started with what maybe
17:54a 100 pages of his narrative of the
17:57crime and the trial, which is not bad. I
18:00disagree with him here and there, but I
18:01disagree with mostly everybody on
18:03something here or there. And then he the
18:05the trial itself is smooshed into the
18:09sort of newspaper format where they
18:11would compile answers that were just yes
18:14no type stuff. Instead of preserving
18:17that Q&A, he would just put up these big
18:20paragraphs of like storytelling and
18:23excuse how the uh the trial reads.
18:26interesting thing when the copy editing
18:28was going on for my book, the copy
18:30editor's job is to make sure you've, you
18:33know, quoted everything correctly to the
18:35extent that they're able to access the
18:37information you had access to. So, this
18:39copy editor had found, I think it was,
18:42um, a law school in Kansas has what is
18:46built as trial testimony online. And you
18:49would think a law school would be a
18:51reliable place to get information. And
18:54it turns out because she kept noting
18:56places where my quote didn't match what
18:59appeared to her to be trial testimony,
19:01which you know is worrisome if you're a
19:02copy editor. And when I looked at it, I
19:05realized that that university had put up
19:09Pearson's version, not the actual trial.
19:12Oh, that's that's tragic. And I went,
19:13"Holy c." Yeah, that's just awful. That
19:16that is bad.
19:19Yeah. Like, oh. And then I understood,
19:22you know, of course, if you were not
19:24familiar with the case, you would
19:26presume that this is a reliable place to
19:28get to get that information. And it
19:29turned out not to be at all. Right. The
19:31downloadable PDFs from Stephanie Cory's
19:34website are are very reliable. I think
19:37that she worked with Cat Corey and Harry
19:39Widows to uh put all that together. And
19:42it's from my understanding that it's
19:44extremely reliable. Yeah, that's what I
19:46actually what I use. And when I think
19:48about how it used to be to research
19:51something like this, you would have to
19:53turn every page of paper with your hand
19:56and skim with your own eyeballs, find
19:58the detail that you needed. Whereas with
20:00these PDFs, I could type in swordfish
20:03and it would bring up swordfish
20:05instantly, which was magical and saved I
20:08can't imagine how much time. How would
20:10you even begin to to track all of that
20:12information in a pre-digital format?
20:15Well, I met Harry Widows once and I
20:17asked him that and his only answer was
20:22that's exactly what I would envision.
20:24Yeah. He said, "I'm retired now. I never
20:27I realized what it was like for people
20:29before to to research this. Then I I had
20:32to be frankly a little less snotty about
20:34other people's mistakes. Now, did you
20:36have the chance to visit Fall River
20:38while researching the book?" Yes, I
20:40drove out to Fall River. I want to stay
20:42in October of 13. I think I was only
20:46there for I was there one night there
20:48and one night in Fair Haven, but I
20:50stayed at the Lizzie Bordon bed and
20:52breakfast. Oh, nice. Which room did you
20:54stay in? Lizz's bedroom. Oh, nice. Which
20:56was Yeah, that was the only room that
20:58really appealed to me. I'm too chicken
20:59for the murder room. It is a very nice
21:01room. It is. Yeah. And the thing about
21:04that house that was so interesting, I
21:05mean, I live in an old house. My house
21:07was built in 1873, so I'm accustomed to
21:09old houses. But you hear again and again
21:11and again how cramped and dim and dark
21:13and awful and oppressive this house was.
21:15And I walked into this place and I went,
21:17"This is bigger than my house." And it's
21:19got windows that they're not quite floor
21:21to ceiling, but they're just nice big
21:24windows. And I was in that place
21:2790 seconds and I thought, I'm going to
21:29be fine. There's nothing to be afraid of
21:31here. Now, the tour guide, whose job it
21:33is to tell ghost stories and creep me
21:35out, might be able to creep me out. But
21:37the house itself, even though regardless
21:39of what you think about the afterlife,
21:42spiritual ghosts, energies, something
21:46terrible did in fact happen in that
21:48house. We have nasty pictures to prove
21:50it. But even that fact, I didn't feel
21:53uncomfortable in that house. I did not
21:55feel that way either until a time I was
21:57in the basement when the lights went
21:59off.
22:00Okay, I'll give you that. And then I
22:02said, "Well, you know, I do believe in
22:04spooks. I do believe in spooks.
22:06I do believe in spooks." Now, I was in
22:10there for about 30 minutes alone because
22:12the other guests had gone out to get
22:14supper or something and I was from the
22:16cellar to the attic and was fine, but
22:18then, you know, all the lights stayed
22:19on. So, yeah, that that might have
22:21drastically changed my opinion quickly.
22:24Well, that's that's the thing. The mind
22:25the mind can do weird things. And if you
22:27have strange thoughts in your head,
22:29being alone in the house could uh could
22:31trigger a lot, you know, you start
22:32interpreting noises that you hear and
22:34shadows and you know, but I've I've
22:36never had anything resembling a
22:38paranormal experience in that house.
22:40I've met people who have claimed, but
22:42they also claim to have experienced that
22:44elsewhere. So, it might be something in
22:46their head that travels around with
22:48them, or it could be that there is
22:49residual energy there that that is from
22:52the tragedy. I just don't have any
22:54personal experience or evidence to go
22:56on. And it may be that people who are
22:58more sensitive to that are just more
23:00sensitive across locations. So they, you
23:03know, they're just more aware. Uh, who
23:05did you have a chance to speak to when
23:06you went to FL River? Did you go to the
23:08uh meet Michael Martins and Dennis Benet
23:10at the historical society? Heck yes. And
23:13that was super. Yeah, I met them. Um, I
23:16probably talked to them for I want to
23:18say a couple hours. At some point during
23:20that they a couple other people showed
23:22up for a tour and they said do you want
23:23to take the tour? And I said yeah. So
23:25another man I want to say his name was
23:27Keith or Ken I can't remember I've got
23:29it written down somewhere. He conducted
23:31the tour of all the artifacts and stuff
23:33and that was super super you know at one
23:36point cuz at that time the bedspread
23:38from the spare room was on display and I
23:41turn around I'm like whoa there it is
23:43and it's much cleaner than you expect it
23:45to be for given what happened next to
23:47that bed. But Dennis was standing across
23:49from me and I was like, I know. I said
23:51to him, I I know you get to see this
23:52every day. You're probably used to this,
23:54but do you know what this is like? Turn
23:56around and there is this thing and this
23:58is the first time it's been on display
24:00in probably since the event happened or
24:03the trial at least. Forgive the
24:05goriness, but is literally saturated in
24:07history. And they have her hair braid
24:09that was found on it. Yeah. And little
24:11things I hadn't thought of when I saw
24:13them. It made sense. You know, there
24:14were envelopes from City Marshall. um
24:17you know, correspondents and like maybe
24:19the hair samples or something, but they
24:21had of course they had printed
24:23stationary that had his name and you
24:25know, like a logo of the Fall River
24:26Police and you just don't think of that
24:28so much in an email age, how things
24:31looked, how things physically felt in
24:34your hand and and it was all there. And
24:36a funny little thing, you know, they
24:37have the stool that was in Lizz's jail
24:40cell and Dennis pulled it out, you know,
24:42from under a cabinet so I could see it
24:43and I was like, I want to touch that. I
24:45want to sit on it. not allowed to put
24:47it, but I want to. And then I thought,
24:49you just slept in the woman's bedroom.
24:51Do you think you might have touched
24:52something that she touched? I think
24:54you'll be okay if you don't put your
24:56Heiney on that stool. Right.
24:59Yeah. And they have her dinner pal as
25:01well, I believe, from her uh her her
25:03Sojourn in the jail. And her meatloaf
25:06recipe, which made me laugh right out
25:08loud.
25:11Oh, they have that on display. the index
25:13card with the uh yeah that I've seen a
25:15picture of at that time they did and I'm
25:17often a poor sport about Lizzy Bordon
25:19jokes but I just hooted right out loud
25:21when I saw that.
25:24I think it was Jenna said to me it's
25:25actually not very good.
25:29Well, she didn't you know she probably
25:31was just giving someone a meatloaf
25:32recipe. It's as simple as that. How how
25:34important do you feel River is to an
25:37understanding of the Lizzy Bordon case?
25:39I think it's significant. Um, I'm weaker
25:41on Fall River history in general than I
25:43would like to be, especially after
25:45having been there and seen the place and
25:47seen how much more it is than Lizzie
25:49Bordon. I didn't even know Battleship
25:51Cove was there until I arrived in the
25:53city and saw a poster because it's it's
25:56so the public awareness of Fall River is
25:58so narrow because Lizzy Bordon that's
26:00all there is. But I think there is sort
26:03of a a funny sort of misconception that
26:04it was a small town and maybe that's
26:06because of the way the investigation was
26:08handled. But we're talking what 85,000
26:11people in 1892 that it it was a very
26:13large town for that time. Yeah. In the
26:15decade previous to the murders, the
26:17Bordon murders, there was a big
26:19explosion of new textile mills and new
26:22businesses in Fall River. So it was in
26:24Lizzie Bordon's lifetime as an adult,
26:27the city itself was growing
26:28exponentially and was undergoing like a
26:31second growth of industry. Well, and how
26:33stratified this the society was. You
26:35there was the very very rich people who
26:37owned the mills and the very very unrich
26:40who worked in them. And Lizzy's sort of
26:42in a funny position in between them
26:44because of where she lived as opposed to
26:46where they could have afforded to live.
26:48They were living so modestly that it it
26:51just sort of put her in a sort of no
26:52man's land, I think. Yeah. She did a lot
26:54of work for her church and for various
26:56organizations, but she never really had
26:58a job or a career. No. And and she had
27:00no she had no need to financially. I
27:03mean she and I don't know if I mean for
27:05a woman of that time in that place what
27:08would have been available to her. She
27:10was kind of too well off to be a
27:13teacher. What else what else would there
27:15have been? Uh marriage. But there's no
27:17there's no hint that she was ever
27:18courted by anybody or that she ever took
27:20an interest in anybody? No. And I did
27:22ask um at the historical society. I
27:24asked Michael and and Dennis, was there
27:27any indication either way, positive or
27:29negative, that either of the Bordon
27:30girls desired to be married? And they
27:33said no, there is no indication. So we
27:35we really do not know why they were not
27:38married. If that was by choice, by
27:40circumstance, were they content with
27:42that situation or were they not? We we
27:44have no indication whatsoever. or
27:46whether Andrew had any influence on that
27:49in dissuading people or negatively
27:52reinforcing anybody from wanting to take
27:54an interest in them because the
27:55prevailing opinion nowadays is well if a
27:57woman at that time wasn't married there
27:59had to be a reason I don't know yeah one
28:01one other very important aspect of your
28:04book I think is a lot of the uh the
28:06careful way and you dealt with a lot of
28:08the legends surrounding Lizzie Bordon
28:10the urban legends all the myths like the
28:12myth of Andrew Bordon that was really
28:14what I had the most fun with was looking
28:16at those myths. Yeah. Andrew Bordon
28:18being the wealthiest man in town, the
28:19stingiest man in town. Yeah. Being a a
28:22child abuser, a wife abuser, um you
28:25know, the the fact that there are no
28:27real hallways separating the rooms in
28:29the house was due to his stinginess
28:31rather than due to uh the original
28:34design of the house before he bought it.
28:36Yeah, there's no hallways in my house.
28:38You know, what does that mean? Well, I
28:40think the consensus is that when he
28:42bought 92nd Street, he actually opened
28:44it up. Yeah, he sure did. He knocked
28:45down a couple of walls. He rearranged
28:47things. He made it cozier. He made it
28:49less cramped. Now, you mentioned it in a
28:51sidebar. You have very good sidebars in
28:53your books. I I found some material in
28:55your book that I had never encountered
28:56before. And one of them Yeah. Well, you
28:59did an excellent job. There's something
29:01in your book where you mention that they
29:03were considering a move to the Hill or
29:06they were there was actually a real
29:08estate agent who was acting on uh for
29:11Andrew Bordon actually looking for a
29:12house on the hill. Yep. Do you remember
29:14where you got that from? I first heard
29:16that in a telephone conversation um with
29:18Michael Martin. He mentioned that and if
29:20I recall correctly that information he
29:23had found I think in Jennings Journals
29:26which they had recently acquired. It
29:27came up again while I was in Fall River
29:29in person. And then I found it also in
29:33Lizz's jailhouse interview with Kate
29:36Swan Mgherk I think was the reporter's
29:39name. It was a woman that she had known
29:40from her charity work and she was, I
29:42believe, the only woman, the only person
29:44reporter that Lizzie was willing to
29:47speak to while she was incarcerated. And
29:49that reporter brought that fact up,
29:51which, you know, in a newspaper
29:52interview, especially one with Lizzie
29:54herself, given how full of baloney the
29:57newspapers were, you really have to
29:59think. So, if I hadn't heard that
30:01information also at the historical
30:03society in Fall River, I might have
30:05dismissed it. Right. And you also
30:06mentioned information about how Andrew
30:08did have desires to upgrade his house,
30:12but the girls were concerned about
30:13having to rip up the floorboards for the
30:15piping. Yeah. And Parallel Lives is very
30:17good about that, too. They point out
30:20here is when running water became
30:23available in the city, and here is when
30:25Andrew Bordon hooked up his businesses
30:26and his home. Now, he didn't include the
30:29second floor in his plumbing, but okay,
30:31he took advantage of that luxury very
30:34quickly. not only at home but for with
30:37his businesses. Gas lights he wasn't
30:39quite so keen on apparently but again
30:41parallel lives points out that that was
30:43not unusual. People were uncomfortable
30:45initially with gas lights as we would be
30:48now when you think about you know fire.
30:50Here's a lamp with fire in it that's
30:52connected to a city line rather than
30:54just a kerosene lamp. People were more
30:56comfortable with kerosene lamps probably
30:58because they had control over them.
31:00Yeah. Same thing with the electricity
31:01because we know that at that time I mean
31:04that Martins and Benet were very good at
31:06pointing out that at that time
31:07electricity was available and parts of
31:09the city were being electrified but it
31:11it was certainly wasn't something that
31:13become common in domestic houses. If
31:16Andrew Bordon did not have electricity
31:18in his house it was not out of the
31:19ordinary. It didn't make him an Ebenezer
31:21Scrooge by not putting electric lights
31:23in his house. And I I get a kick out of
31:26comparing Mr. Bordon to my grandpa. Uh
31:28my grandpa on my dad's side just died
31:31last year. He was 100 years old. He was
31:33born in Nebraska in 1915. He was one of
31:36I believe six six brothers. His father
31:38died when he was very young. So here's
31:40his mother trying to run a farm with six
31:43boys, which is good cuz you know you've
31:44got boys to help out. When they killed
31:46the chicken, everybody had like a
31:47designated piece of the chicken that was
31:49theirs to eat and grandpa's was the
31:51head, you know. And this man, you know,
31:54last year was still wearing garments
31:57that I recognized from my childhood
31:59because they were still serviceable
32:00garments. There was no reason for him to
32:02discard them. He was not interested in
32:04fashion. But he wasn't stingy by any
32:06means. He was quite generous. You would
32:08take the whole family out. Hey, let's go
32:10to the ice cream parlor. Big fancy ice
32:13cream parlor with great big dishes of
32:15stuff, you know. But that's not
32:16something that's ever going to find its
32:18way into a written source. If somebody
32:20looks up Vern Miller, you know, they're
32:22not going to find the parlor in Jackson,
32:24Michigan, when you look at there are
32:26people who have dug into Andrew Bordon
32:28and taken, for example, Emma's records
32:31away at the young lady's seminary and
32:33discovered that he paid for small
32:34luxuries for her. He paid for carpets in
32:36her bedroom, which were extra. There was
32:39some type of lesson, I can't remember if
32:40it was music or language that required
32:43extra books. It was extra cost for that
32:46tuition, and he paid that for her. So
32:48although he wouldn't treat himself to
32:51luxuries, he would treat his family. And
32:54when you think about Lizzie went
32:55overseas for gosh, what was it? Weeks
32:57and weeks. 19 weeks. Yeah. Yeah. She
33:00didn't pay for that out of her pocket.
33:02He paid for that. That was the timing
33:04indicates that it was probably her 30th
33:07birthday present. Uh I think Andrew
33:09Bordon's behavior in business is what
33:12made that reputation. Maybe not the way
33:15he was with his family, even though the
33:17fact that he might have been killed by a
33:19family member led to speculations on how
33:21cruel and abusive he was in in his
33:23private life. Yeah. Well, and
33:24everything, you know, when two people
33:26turn up dead in the sort of spectacular
33:28fashion that Andrew and Abby Bordon turn
33:30up dead, everything becomes significant
33:32suddenly. Yes. And when there's so
33:34little information available in addition
33:36to that, everything becomes significant.
33:39I remember like when I was researching
33:40the Romana, I remember coming across
33:42some information that Grand Duchess
33:44Maria who's the third daughter of the
33:45Zar had read this book she called the
33:48rosary. She mentioned it too in a letter
33:50to her father. Oh, I read this book. I
33:52liked it. And once that information
33:53comes out among the super fans, it then
33:55becomes Grand Duchess Maria's favorite
33:57book. Like that's not what she said. All
34:00we know is that she read it. But because
34:02there's no other information about books
34:04that that person read, we elevate it.
34:07Well, I applaud you for what you've done
34:09in your book, which is to navigate
34:11through all these myths and all these
34:13half legends and all the trial testimony
34:16and everything to try to piece together
34:18a comprehensive story where you not only
34:21present it in an eloquent, entertaining
34:23way that kind of reads like a novel, but
34:26also everything is documented,
34:27everything is fact checked, and you are
34:30openly honest about the things that we
34:32don't know and that may or may not be
34:34true. And in regard to the legends of
34:36Lizzie Bordon, the legends of Andrew
34:38Bordon, you did a great job in
34:39presenting what we currently know about
34:42these people and their lifestyle. Well,
34:44thank you. I mean, that that is exactly
34:45what I wanted to do. And it was not
34:48actually always easy to be objective
34:50because I I do have opinions and so I
34:52could feel myself, you know, when I was
34:54recording information or imparting
34:56information that aligned with what I
34:59believe. There would be this sort of
35:00nagging voice saying, "Okay, now you you
35:03have to present the other side too." And
35:06then, you know, like another little
35:08layer is I was trying not to try too
35:10hard to present that other side because
35:13I know what I believe. Am I giving too
35:15much emphasis to the other side in order
35:18to disguise and and maintain my
35:21objectivity? Am I actually skewing too
35:23far in the other direction? I think a
35:25book that has as its goal objectivity,
35:27the best you could do is uh have a
35:30chapter about what people's theories are
35:32and present the theories factually
35:34saying in this book this author believes
35:36this and not present it as fact, not
35:38present it as your own theory, not
35:40present it as something that you're
35:41debunking because you have a theory of
35:43your own. I think your book is fine
35:45without a chapter like that. You know, I
35:47touch on it a little bit as you
35:48mentioned earlier, you know, with um I
35:51hopscotch right over of Victoria
35:53Lincoln's book. You mentioned that. I
35:55mean, she has a very developed theory
35:57that's very satisfying. I mean, to read
35:59her book, it's fun because she ties up
36:02all those dangling little threads, but
36:05because she ties up all those dangling
36:07little threads, you realize at some
36:09point this doesn't feel real. This feels
36:11like a novel. And that's what I learned
36:13with the newspaper um accounts. If it
36:15read like a story, like you know,
36:18there's this acceleration of emotion and
36:20a peak and there's details that make you
36:22wow and and then it it kind of dips back
36:25down and takes you to a resolution. If
36:27it feels like that, it probably is a
36:28story as opposed to facts because if
36:31they were trying to relay just what was
36:33known, they would have to say, "We don't
36:35know this. We don't know that. This
36:36person says that person says." Well, I'm
36:38going to ask you the uh $10 million
36:40question.
36:42Do you think Lizzie Bordon was guilty or
36:43innocent? I do not believe that she
36:46murdered Andrew and Abby. I can't prove
36:49it by a long shot. I mean, I I have to
36:51acknowledge even though that's the way I
36:53feel about Lizzie Bordon personally, she
36:56had the best opportunity to commit that
36:59crime. There is no easier solution to
37:01the problem than Lizzie Bordon. But from
37:04Parallel Lives, reading about how she
37:06conducted herself after the trial, I
37:09really don't think she did it. If you
37:11believe sort of the the basic outline of
37:14that crime, that Lizzie Bordon hacked up
37:16her parents in order to get her
37:18inheritance, that pretty much requires
37:20you to believe that Lizzie Bordon is a
37:22psychopath. That is a psychopathic
37:24motive because these people, they
37:26weren't young. They weren't terribly
37:28elderly. But she didn't have to wait
37:29long unless there was a will that we
37:31didn't know about if they were going to
37:32get disinherited or something. Like
37:34there's really no good reason not to
37:35just sit tight for another few years and
37:38get your money. She had the equivalent
37:40of I would say about $74,000 in her own
37:43bank account at the time of the murders.
37:45But after the trial, she lives very
37:47quietly. She does indulge herself. She
37:50had expensive tastes. I mean, there's no
37:51way around that. She enjoyed jewelry.
37:53She enjoyed fine clothes. She liked to
37:55go to the theater. The house that she
37:57and Emma bought after the murder was it
37:59was bigger. It wasn't vastly larger. I
38:01think it was about 500 square ft larger.
38:03They could decorate it in their style.
38:05Some people look at that and they feel,
38:08well, she took her money. She took her
38:10father's money and she went shopping,
38:11which is true, but I don't know. It just
38:14it doesn't fit to me. She also donated
38:17to charities like the Animal Rescue
38:19League, and she did so very quietly. I I
38:22found out through parallel lives that
38:23she was even into horse rescue. All the
38:25horses when automobiles came out, all
38:27these horses started getting abandoned
38:29and abused and there was a big
38:31charitable effort to rescue these horses
38:34and take care of them. And for the first
38:36time ever, I found out Lizzie Bordon
38:37owned horses. There were other little
38:39little things like she bought books for
38:41the poor. There was one book seller in
38:43town who wouldn't stock. It was I think
38:45in the 1920s
38:47maybe. Anyway, wouldn't stock an early
38:49book on the case because he thought so
38:50well of Miss Bordon. She bought
38:53groceries for pensioners who were not
38:55well off, not staples. She wasn't buying
38:57flour and cornmeal. She was buying
38:59little luxuries, you know, butter and
39:02sugar. Did these people know that Bordon
39:04was their benefactor? Probably not. She
39:07was loaning her car to invalids and
39:08shutins again. Did those people maybe
39:11they did know that that was Lizzie
39:12Bordon's car cuz how many cars like that
39:14were there in town? But you know,
39:17leaving a slice of cake for the coal
39:19delivery man. You could argue that all
39:21of these are maybe manipulative ways
39:24that she's trying to convince people
39:26that she's she didn't do what she did.
39:28That's possible. But I would think if
39:30that was her goal, she would have been
39:32catering to people who had some measure
39:36of political or social sway in that
39:38community to be catering to working
39:41people, poor people, children, retirees,
39:44and not broadcasting her name doesn't
39:46fit that psychopathic, manipulative,
39:49charming profile. The other thing about
39:51the the psychopath argument is that a
39:54psychopath who's good at it will
39:56convince you that they're not guilty.
39:58And Lizzie Bordon
40:00is the furthest thing from that. She was
40:02did a terrible job of convincing people
40:04that she was not guilty. When you look
40:07at sort of the the profile for
40:08psychopathic behavior following a crime,
40:11and I I say this clearly saying I don't
40:14think Bridget Sullivan was a psychopath
40:15or that she committed the murders. But
40:17in terms of behavior immediately
40:19following the crime, the person most
40:21likely to be a psychopath is Bridget
40:23because she's reacting the way we want
40:25people to react. She's nervous, scared,
40:28you know, all sort of shook up, but her
40:30testimony is very clear, very fluid,
40:33very consistent. And that's what a
40:35perpetrator is more likely to do because
40:38they've practiced their story. Where
40:40Lizzy, who is uh viewed as sort of cold
40:42and non-reactive, she stirs up more
40:45suspicion because we know that's the
40:47inside of a psychopath. That's what we
40:49should be scared of. But the trouble
40:50with that type of person is they're so
40:53adept at disguising it. And Lizzie was
40:55not the least bit adept at disguising
40:57herself. That's true. That's true.
41:00Especially the inquest testimony. Uh I
41:02know that she was she had a dose of
41:04morphine in her when she was on the
41:06stand, but at the same time, her
41:08waffling on things, her
41:10self-contradicting the all that was
41:12consistent with a person who was
41:14innocent and trying to remember what
41:17happened that day. Yeah. But that
41:18testimony is just an absolute mess. No
41:20matter which side of the divide you
41:22stand on, if you read only that
41:23testimony, even I have to say that lady
41:26is guilty because it's so messy. It's I
41:29mean, it's just even beyond stumbling to
41:31cover your tracks. It's like you've
41:32never even thought about leaving tracks,
41:35much less covering them. There was a
41:37number of people who, for whatever
41:39reason, they believe Lizzie Bordon is
41:41guilty. And I think that they're the
41:43ones who tend to emphasize the myths
41:45about the kleptoomania, the myths about
41:48the sexual abuse by her father, you
41:50know, whatever whatever uh bias
41:52confirmation they could find in any
41:54small detail that would say, "Aha, that
41:56shows, you know, it's almost as if in
41:59their need to believe that she was
42:00guilty, they also at the same time have
42:02to see her as a victim." Well, and
42:04that's the thing. That's I think that's
42:05part of the mythology of even Abby and
42:08Andrew is if you're going to believe
42:10that this woman cut up her parents, you
42:12almost have to believe that they
42:13deserved it. You need a milderly father.
42:16You need a greedy stepmother so that you
42:18can stop the idea of this happening.
42:21There have been many film versions of
42:23the Lizzie Bordon story. One from the
42:251970s with Elizabeth Montgomery, the
42:27legend of Lizzie Bordon. Recently there
42:29was a made for TV movie with Christina
42:31Richi and that was followed up by a
42:33television series. Where do you think
42:35these movies fit in with our
42:37understanding of Lizzie Bordon? Uh
42:39clearly they were made for
42:40entertainment. They were not meant for
42:42scholarship.
42:44Do to put it mildly?
42:47Uh do you feel that they enhance, they
42:49add, they take away? Uh what's your
42:51general opinion about these movies? I'm
42:53a pretty poor sport. I have not seen the
42:56Elizabeth Montgomery movie. I probably
42:58should because that's such for for so
43:00many people that's how they became aware
43:02of Lizzie Bordon. I think they epitomize
43:04the pop culture thinking the prevailing
43:07caricature of Lizzie Bordon. I think the
43:09reason I'm such a force sport is because
43:11they do her personally such a
43:13disservice. But like the Christina Richi
43:15uh movie I was I was kind of cautiously
43:18optimistic when I heard about that
43:19because I thought Christina Richi man if
43:21they paid for any kind of a script with
43:23some subtlety in it boy she could really
43:25do a great job. But they didn't. They
43:27just took every Bordon myth known to
43:30man, threw it in a pot, and stirred it
43:32up. And, you know, it's it is kind of
43:34fun to watch. I I watched it. I yelled
43:36at the TV a little bit, but you know,
43:40she was real. She was a person. Andrew
43:43and Abby were people. And whatever
43:46happened on the 4th of August ruined
43:48slash ended three lives. And Emma, too.
43:52And you can't imagine that Bridget
43:53Sullivan wasn't profoundly affected by
43:56what happened in her place of
43:57employment. And I just feel like it it
44:00trivializes a lot of those things. The
44:03book is marketed as a as a children's
44:06book. Schwarz and Wade is an imprint of
44:08Random House children's books. Was it
44:10your intention to start off doing a
44:13young adult book about Lizzie Bordon?
44:15Yes. They had chosen to market it even a
44:17little younger than I'd envisioned,
44:20which surprised me a bit, but they had
44:22talked with librarians and their
44:25marketing team. The input they got was
44:27that yes, you can go even a little
44:30younger with this. That's to a large
44:32extent why the book feels kind of
44:35streamlined, if you will, not going off
44:37on certain tangents, just keeping a very
44:39clear momentum, which some ways is
44:42limiting because I couldn't put in all
44:44the stuff I wanted to put in that I
44:46thought was neat. But there's, you know,
44:48there's just not room for all of that.
44:50Um, and and you've got to make some
44:52concessions for for people who are
44:54coming to this for the first time. And
44:56not only that, but at a young age, you
44:57know, keep it keep it clean. And even,
45:00you know, the violence itself, I do
45:02describe bloody nasty things, but I
45:04don't dwell on them. I just say this is
45:07how it appeared and and leave it at that
45:09rather than really get in there and
45:10revel in it like the TV shows do. Well,
45:13in spite of what you just said, I think
45:14the resulting book is uh an excellent
45:17book for adults as well. True. It it
45:19doesn't read like a full academic
45:21biography of Lizzie Bordon. No, but
45:23that's, you know, a very select
45:25audience. How many people want to read
45:27an academic biography of Lizzie? Well,
45:28you and I do. Yes. You know, every time
45:31one comes out, I said, "Give me one of
45:32them." But in spite of your in spite of
45:33the limitations you just indicated, I
45:35think it's an an excellent book I would
45:37recommend to people of any age. Well,
45:39and you know, there's nothing about like
45:40the cover or whatever, except that it it
45:42doesn't show, you know, archival gory
45:44pictures. There's there's really nothing
45:46about it to indicate this is a book for
45:48kids. Stay away grown-ups. As I'm
45:50working on it, it's not that often that
45:52I'm thinking of will a kid get this?
45:55maybe in some of the legal procedures
45:57that you know they might not be familiar
45:59with, but on the whole it it's not
46:02tremendously different, you know, what
46:04what an adult would want to know about
46:06this case. It's it's again, it's
46:08streamlining, right? You have a sidebar
46:10on the definitions of the different
46:12court proceedings. So, what's the
46:13difference between an arraignment, an
46:15inquest, a preliminary hearing, a grand
46:17jury, but I love that sidebar because it
46:19it all became clear to me after years of
46:21reading about this. And it it would help
46:24me too to actually see why is this
46:26because it feels like especially after
46:28you're reading all those pages and pages
46:30the primary sources like why are they
46:32doing this again? They said this we've
46:34been over this. Oh because the purpose
46:37of this proceeding is different from the
46:39purpose of the last proceeding. Yes. And
46:41you really get a clear look at how the
46:43justice system is supposed to work. I
46:46mean from maybe from just that sidebar.
46:48Here's the procedure. Here's what each
46:50thing is trying to accomplish andor
46:52prevent. So tell us a little bit about
46:54your most current book project that
46:55you're working on now. The Dion
46:57quintuplets. Yes. The Dons were the
47:00first set of quintuplets that were known
47:03to survive ever as a complete set. They
47:05also to my knowledge remain the only
47:08ever ever known identical set of
47:10quintuplets. They were five baby girls
47:12born in Ontario in 1934 and they became
47:17I mean the public was immediately
47:19captivated by these tiny little babies
47:21who shouldn't have survived. They were
47:23born in a farmhouse that had no
47:24plumbing, no electricity and they were
47:26bitsy. They were like in round numbers
47:28they were about 2 lbs a piece. They were
47:30born at probably seven months, but they
47:32they did live. And it is it got really
47:35messy really fast because the parents
47:38were not able to provide the care that
47:40premature infants need because who is
47:42especially times five? They needed
47:44incubators. They needed donated mother's
47:46milk. Um they needed roundthe-clock
47:48nursing because their lungs weren't
47:50fully developed and they needed
47:51stimulation from oxygen to keep them
47:53from just fading away. So the
47:56government's solution was to take
47:59custody of these children and build them
48:02a special private hospital across the
48:04road and bring them up there in what
48:07some people view as captivity. And they
48:09were put they had a special they had a
48:11playground that had an observatory
48:12around it so people could come and see
48:14them. It was theoretically one-way
48:16windows but they knew eventually the
48:18girls were aware that they were being
48:19looked at. Part of the reason for that
48:22separation from their parents is their
48:24father in kind of a panic in the first
48:26week after they were born signed a
48:28contract with the Chicago World's Fair
48:30to exhibit them when they were well
48:32enough to be moved. But people were just
48:34up in arms that these babies were going
48:37to be put into a freak show essentially
48:39and then the government stepped in, took
48:41them away and put them in a freak show,
48:44you know, until they were about 10 years
48:45old. It was a ridiculous story. What
48:47drew you to this story that what got you
48:49interested in it? Well, this is going to
48:51be the dumbest story ever. I have in the
48:54attic these little bitty plastic dolls
48:56that had nothing to do with the Dion to
48:58to my knowledge, but they were
48:59quintuplet dolls. They were just a
49:01couple inches tall and there was a
49:02little set of five of them. They were
49:04like from Tao or something in the 80s.
49:06For some reason, I thought, "Oh, I think
49:08I have a set or two of those. I wonder
49:09if they're worth anything." So, I went
49:11on to eBay or Etsy or something to see
49:14if these were worth selling. and I found
49:16the Dion and went, "Wow, that's
49:18interesting." I was aware of the Dion a
49:21little bit because my grandma on my
49:22mother's side loved everything about the
49:241930s that you were supposed to love,
49:26like the Deans and Shirley Temple and
49:28Judy Garland and Betty Davis. So, I was
49:31vaguely aware of them, but when I saw
49:33some of the memorabilia that was for
49:35sale online, I started looking and
49:37looking and looking and I ordered three
49:38books from the library and I read them
49:40all on a weekend and away I went. That's
49:42not so dumb a story. That That's a
49:43pretty cool story.
49:45It's completely unintentional, but you
49:48know, that's how it happened. It shows
49:49the power of eBay to inspire us.
49:52Are any of the Dion still alive today?
49:55There are two still living, Annette and
49:57Cecile, just turned 82 over Memorial Day
50:00weekend. We've been talking to Sarah
50:02Miller, the author of The Bordon
50:04Murders, Lizzie Bordon and the Trial of
50:05the Century, published by Random House
50:07Children's Books. Sarah is the author of
50:09two novels, Miss Spitfire, Reaching
50:11Helen Keller and The Lost Crown, a novel
50:13about the Romanoffs. Thank you very
50:15much, Sarah, for your time. Thank you.
50:17It's been fun. And we hope to uh see you
50:19again when next week when we talk about
50:21the Lizzie Bordon primer. Looking
50:23forward to it.
50:25You have been listening to the Lizzie
50:27Bordon podcast. I'm your host, Richard
50:29Barren. This podcast was written and
50:31produced by Nine Musees Books and
50:33engineered by Mason Amadeus. The theme
50:36music was composed and performed by
50:37Malora Kger. The Lizzie Bordon podcast
50:40is sponsored by Nine Muses Books and the
50:42Lizzy Bordon Girl Detective Mystery
50:44Series. More information can be found at
50:46www.lizzybordonpodcast.com
50:50and www.lizzybordengirldetective.com.
50:54[Music]

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