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The Killer Interview S01E12 | Christopher Porco — Transcript

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0:00I'm finding it very difficult to
0:02reconcile what you're here for with the
0:04person that I'm talking to are you a mad
0:07axe killer no I I I had nothing to do
0:10with this my name is Chris bgo I was
0:13just called by the time Union saying
0:14that my parents were found dead this
0:18afternoon um I was wondering if you had
0:20any information hang on the line for me
0:22okay thank you to hit someone repeatedly
0:24with an
0:25axe that's serious stuff Christopher
0:29Porco is the most unlikely killer I've
0:31ever interviewed your father told a
0:34coworker that he thought you were a
0:36socium I don't believe he meant it there
0:38is a a 55-year-old white male down on
0:41the ground I saw Chris at all stages of
0:44his life he's unresponsive he's
0:46unresponsive and as a personal friend of
0:50the family I believe him to be innocent
0:54I've been granting one hour with a man
0:55found guilty of wielding an axe to kill
0:58his father and his mother there was just
1:01blood everywhere Blood on the ceiling
1:04and the bed was just soaked with blood
1:06you know what bothers me around all this
1:08you don't really show much remorse here
1:10you are as a convicted murderer how does
1:13that make you feel it's kind of a deep
1:15seething anger that's not really
1:17expressed dayto day now for the first
1:19time since his incarceration he's
1:21speaking out Porco insists he can prove
1:24he's an innocent man there's no doubt in
1:28my mind that Christopher Porco
1:30killed his father it's not our burden to
1:32demonstrate who did this the point is it
1:34was not Christopher you know you're
1:36making me think about this if you're
1:38guilty then you just played me for the
1:40last 2 hours but if it wasn't you who
1:43was it we we certainly have someone in
1:46mind
1:49[Applause]
1:57[Music]
2:02Christopher thank you for your time
2:04today what are you hoping to achieve
2:06from this
2:07interview well I think it's important to
2:11try and lay out um facts and information
2:15that never came to light originally you
2:17know 15 years ago so figured now was the
2:21time to kind of begin the process if you
2:23were innocent you're the victim of one
2:26of the worst miscarriages of Justice I
2:27can think of if you guilty you are a a
2:31Despicable Axe Murderer how do you how
2:34do you convince me I was convicted
2:36there's a there's a reason why I was
2:38convicted it was because the prosecution
2:41put on a compelling case and in large
2:44part we didn't do our job or or you were
2:47convicted because you did
2:49it I have the luxury of knowing that's
2:52not
2:55true in 2005 life seemed pretty good for
2:5921-year-old Christopher
3:00porker he was in his junior year as an
3:03economic major at the University of
3:05Rochester and a member of the sigma fi
3:07Epsilon
3:08fraternity but all that was about to
3:11change on the morning of November the
3:1315th when detectives arrived at his
3:15parents' home 200 M away in
3:18Albany discovered a scene of
3:20unimaginable
3:22Carnage 911 what's the problem there is
3:25a a 55-year-old white male down on the
3:28ground the front door was a jar but when
3:31I did stick my head in immediately I saw
3:35uh a body laying there his eyes are wide
3:38open and
3:40glassy and uh I got to the top of the
3:42stairs and I saw a female laying
3:46Crossways in the bed she had these very
3:49very large hack marks on her forehead
3:52and her jaw and um I realized she was
3:56still alive at this moment Porco was 200
3:59miles away in Rochester where he says he
4:02was completely unaware of what had
4:04happened to his parents let's turn to
4:08the phone call you get telling you that
4:09your parents have been
4:12attacked describe that moment it's every
4:15child's nightmare one of my fraternity
4:18Brothers came into to where I was and
4:19told me my phone had been ringing in my
4:21room I think it was the AL Many Times
4:24Union and she asked me if I had any
4:27comment on my parents' murder
4:30that day that's how you were told yep
4:33and I kind of fell back into the
4:36chair and asked her what what she was
4:39talking about she seemed somewhat
4:42embarrassed that I didn't know my name
4:45is Chris poro I was just called by the
4:47Times Union saying that my parents were
4:49found dead this afternoon um I was
4:50wondering if you had any information
4:52what about are you I'm at school in
4:54Rochester New York okay you're it's in
4:57Rochester yes okay hang on the line for
5:00me okay thank
5:03you I mean I've heard the tapes of these
5:06calls yeah what is most striking to me
5:09is how calm you are you know you've just
5:12been told that both your parents might
5:14have been brutally murdered but you're
5:17responding as if you're ringing up
5:18because some milk was taken off the
5:20doorstep I I I don't know if I
5:23characterize it in that way um by the
5:25time I made that
5:26call I didn't believe that anything had
5:30happened to anybody I knew a few minutes
5:33later a detective calls Christopher and
5:35confirms his father is dead and his
5:37mother is in a critical condition Porco
5:40is then asked to call back unaware of it
5:42his conversation is being
5:44recorded hey Chris yes yeah okay that's
5:47better I don't have the static anymore
5:49you going to go right to Aly Med I don't
5:51know I don't even know where my mom is
5:53but yeah she is at aling Med okay do you
5:55know her condition no because I haven't
5:57talked to her cuz when you get there
5:59I'll come and see if there's anything I
6:00can do for you yeah okay thanks once the
6:04police confirm it why do you stay calm
6:06I'm not saying you should have been
6:07hysterical but there's no sense of panic
6:10there's no sense of fear there's no
6:13sense of
6:14turmoil of rising stress or anything
6:18it's not something that that sinks in
6:20that
6:21registers and it it didn't for a long
6:24period of time it's almost like you're
6:25kind of floating through interactions
6:28with people I'm me a syic would say say
6:30that the reason you were so calm was
6:33that you already knew that because you
6:34were the one who had done it sure I
6:37think that everyone reacts to things
6:39differently typically I'm not a
6:42hysterical person to me in my mind I was
6:45thinking this is not accurate this is
6:50wrong we were at the hospital and
6:53Christopher came
6:55in for lack of a better word I would say
6:58he was in shock
7:00and within a few minutes after he got
7:03there two detectives approached him and
7:06said we would like to talk with you what
7:09Christopher doesn't know at this point
7:11is that detective Bish has already
7:14spoken to his mother oh she
7:17coherent did you
7:20speak
7:21[Music]
7:23should your mother was still alive and
7:25thank God she stayed alive orbe it with
7:28terrible injuries and they asked whether
7:31she knew the person who did this I
7:34looked down at her and I asked her if
7:36she could hear me and she indicated with
7:41her head that she nodded up and down yes
7:43they asked if it was your brother and
7:45she said no I then said did Christopher
7:49do this to you and she clearly shook her
7:52head yes then the immediate aftermath
7:54your mother not only identified the
7:57person as being someone she knew
8:00but specifically nodded twice when she
8:03was asked if it was you a son there are
8:06varying I would say descriptions as to
8:09what
8:14happened the attack happened upstairs in
8:17the bedroom but Peter got up and walked
8:21and trailed that blood himself going
8:22around the
8:24house it was one of the most astounding
8:26things that we heard that he could be
8:28struck with an axe dying and part of him
8:31was still trying to get up make the
8:33coffee get his lunch together do the
8:36routines you do in the morning before
8:37you go to work not realizing perhaps
8:39because of the trauma that he was dying
8:41which he did probably moments
8:43later in my mind I just couldn't believe
8:46that you know number one that this had
8:49happened number two that you know I was
8:52looking at the sun for this whole
8:54thing I'm finding it very difficult to
8:57reconcile what you're here for with the
9:00person that I'm talking to I could be
9:02talking to a regular guy in the bar who
9:05comes over as a perfectly normal human
9:07being yet whoever committed this crime
9:10is not a normal human being I would
9:12agree with that did you ever imagine
9:15that you would end up where you are
9:17today I know I don't think I ever met
9:20anyone who went to jail until I was in
9:22jail the porcos were what you would call
9:25a Norman rockwellian family I mean they
9:27were really just kind of the epitome
9:29of the successful middle class very kind
9:32and loving really nothing to Mar the
9:35perfect picture Peter Porco was very
9:38well known in the legal Community as a
9:40popular law clerk Joan Porco was a was a
9:43well-known teacher and Christopher Porco
9:46was not someone who was on anyone's
9:50radar no violence no abuse no
9:55reason certainly from their point of
9:57view no reason that you would feel
9:59murderous towards them of course not but
10:02the truth is in the year before the
10:04attack Peter and Joan Porco are having a
10:07difficult time with their 21-year-old
10:09son Christopher the last time that I
10:11spoke with Peter uh was on the Friday
10:14before and one of the things that came
10:16up was the financial problems that Chris
10:21had created he had forged Peter's
10:24signature to be a co-signer on a loan I
10:28paid for a car with a Lo loan that was
10:30um I signed a a check with my dad's name
10:33$177,000 to co-sign the loan Christopher
10:36seems to get off on the idea that he's
10:38getting over on his parents he likes to
10:40exploit their trust in the email
10:43exchanges with your father in particular
10:45in the run up to what happened it's
10:48clear that
10:49your fraudulent Behavior your thieving
10:52Nature has now extended to the tune of
10:55tens of thousands of dollars his father
10:58is calling him out he wants him to come
11:00home and have a conversation about this
11:02and basically The Jig Is up the stuff's
11:05about to hit the fan Christopher Porco
11:08cannot talk his way out of this one more
11:10time you had personal animists with your
11:13parents at the time over the discovery
11:15about the fraudulent
11:17Behavior there's an argument that you
11:19have motivation which was this financial
11:22Scandal have blown up in your face you
11:25know you're a Serial fraudster and your
11:27father's challenging you about this and
11:29you're lying to him repeatedly refusing
11:32to take any responsibility for what's
11:34happened it's
11:35true Peter Porco insists his son comes
11:38home and comes clean about his criminal
11:41Behavior just 10 days later Peter is
11:44found
11:45[Music]
11:46[Applause]
11:48dead your father told a
11:51coworker in the week before that he
11:55thought you were a sociopath yeah why
11:57would he have said that I don't I don't
11:59believe he meant it he was exasperated
12:01at the time because
12:04he couldn't understand why I was
12:06behaving that way he was kind of venting
12:09I think at the time but he did call you
12:10a sociopath yeah he did what's your
12:13understanding of what a sociopath
12:15is basically somebody with no
12:17emotion somebody incapable of feeling
12:20guilt remorse empathy yeah I've
12:22interviewed sociopaths I don't know if
12:25you are one but certainly the sociopaths
12:28I've interviewed
12:29are very capable of putting on a good
12:32act they're very capable of sounding
12:34very plausible they tend to be quite
12:36intelligent they tend to in the
12:39interview process which we're doing now
12:41they can be very convincing is
12:43Christopher Porco so practiced in his
12:46role playing in his ability to gain
12:48trust to manipulate to exploit the trust
12:50of others that he is simply playing the
12:52role like an academy award-winning actor
12:55of what he thinks an innocent person
12:58would behave like
13:00are you a sociopath no absolutely not um
13:04are you capable of real emotion I mean
13:05you didn't show much emotion when you
13:08were told that your parents have both
13:09been bludgeoned by a mad axmen well I I
13:13you say it's down to you not being a
13:14very emotional person I'm not I mean a
13:17sociopath is capable of killing people
13:20and feeling no remorse or guilt or even
13:23admitting doing it you accept that I
13:26mean I I know that's possible sure right
13:29so you accept your behavior at the time
13:31was
13:31sociopathic I think it could have been
13:33interpreted that way a viewer watching
13:35this will go so he admits he was being
13:38sociopathic his reaction is quite
13:40sociopathic and whoever did this was
13:43probably a sociopath I mean I'm doing
13:45the mass and it doesn't look great and
13:46the problem with everything that you've
13:48been saying to me is this is exactly how
13:51a sociopath would play me if he was
13:54trying to persuade me of his innocence
13:56and he had done it
14:02the day after the homicide my my son was
14:05born at Albany Medical Center and that's
14:07where Joan Porco was undergoing surgery
14:10at that time she underwent 12 hours of
14:12surgery when they find Peter dead
14:14downstairs they go upstairs they find
14:16his wife Joan who's still in the bed and
14:19the axe itself was found there at the
14:20foot of the bed and she was in very very
14:22bad shaped but still alive and breathing
14:25remarkably they had a police guard on
14:27her in part because at that point
14:30Christopher Porco was a suspect because
14:32she nodded affirmatively when asked if
14:35Christopher had done this due to the
14:38massive head injury sustained by Joan
14:39Porco prosecutors can't rely on her
14:42identification alone to convince a jury
14:45that Christopher is the attacker they
14:47need to prove he made the 400m round
14:49trip to his parents' house and back to
14:51his university in a single
14:54night one of the points which I think is
14:56in your favor of this is there's no no
14:59footage at all that was found of your
15:01Jeep a very distinctive yellow Jeep
15:05driving on the throughway at the correct
15:07time Sunday night into Monday morning
15:10and they believe you must have stopped
15:12to refuel at some stage but there's no
15:13evidence the police spent countless
15:16hours pulling security camera footage
15:19from gas stations from places all over
15:23the capital region the Albany area rest
15:25stops were checked Dunkin Donuts were
15:27checked and Not only was there no
15:29evidence that he ever refueled there was
15:31no evidence of his presence
15:34period but the neighbor Marshall gouki
15:37saw your yellow Jeep in the driveway at
15:384:00 a.m. I know my car was not there
15:43why would the neighbor lie B there's
15:45sort of a backstory with him I know that
15:48he's
15:54wrong I had one of my sergeants go to
15:57meet with the were up the street they
16:00were aware of the L Jeep because it was
16:02racing up and down the street during the
16:04summer and they were upset over it
16:06because of their kids might get
16:08hurt he knew it was that particular
16:10yellow Jeep in the driveway it was very
16:12fresh in his mind it
16:15was you have an an individual who was
16:18aware of what the police suspected one
16:21of his in-laws worked for the police
16:23department and um he was in a position
16:26to help well if he's okay well you've
16:29certainly been implying that the police
16:30have been working on a concerted effort
16:32to discredit you and to persuade
16:35Witnesses of your guilt mhm you said
16:38that one of the detectives detective
16:41ardini had a vested interest in
16:44disliking you because of something to do
16:46with his daughters that you dated two of
16:49his daughters is that right briefly
16:51dated Christoper had some sort of a
16:54relationship with one of the detectives
16:57daughters and and I don't know the
16:59details of it but whatever it was the
17:03detective uh did not like Chris him and
17:06his wife used to take their their dog to
17:08the veterinarian where I worked and I
17:10found out later that he had encouraged
17:13the veterinarians to fire me and that
17:15was told to me by the
17:17veterinarians do you think the personal
17:19animosity he had for you extended to him
17:22directing Witnesses it's a pretty
17:24serious allegation to make against the
17:26detective that he was directing Witness
17:29es to think that you were guilty and
17:31therefore they must have seen the yellow
17:34Jeep rather than them volunteering it I
17:36I think that his involvement was
17:40critical no with in all the dealings
17:43that I had with Detective arween he
17:45wasn't biased at all he he was
17:48approaching the investigation as we were
17:50keeping his uh you know mind open to all
17:54possibilities but he died right before
17:57trial he was never were subject to
17:59cross-
18:00examination and he is the one that
18:02secured the statement of John Fallon who
18:06was one of the toll collectors who
18:08claimed to remember the yellow
18:12Jeep how do you explain the the toll
18:14booth operators he's also believe they
18:17saw you it's very convenient that you
18:20have three individuals who remember one
18:23car to the exclusion of all others and
18:26it happens to be the car that they're
18:27being questioned about right but also
18:30it's very it's very convenient if you're
18:32you to say that the three people who all
18:36independently say they saw your car that
18:39they've all decided for some reason that
18:42they're going to nail you that they're
18:44going to pretend they're going to
18:46pretend they saw your yellow Jeep even
18:48when it according to you it was never
18:50there I don't believe it's that simple
18:52why would they all be so wrong there's a
18:56lot more information about these
18:58Witnesses that was not used at trial mhm
19:01and so you think in each case they're
19:04discredited I believe they will be yes
19:07okay absolutely a Shucks let's see if we
19:09can straighten this out the problem is
19:12he never sways from that impassive
19:16storytelling nice guy don't worry we
19:19come to the next bit in a
19:21minute how long have we got Chaps at
19:24first it's very impressive 25 30 minutes
19:27perfect that's great but after after an
19:29hour it's really
19:35suspicious were you aware of that axe
19:38sure you knew it was there I had split
19:40with my dad on more than one occasion so
19:43you knew it was there you knew where it
19:44was kept yes anybody else I mean it
19:47wasn't something we really advertised it
19:50was sitting by the it was right next to
19:52the door as you came in so it's a small
19:54number of people that would have known
19:56it was there before you accept that
19:59well you're you're assuming that whoever
20:00did this didn't walk in and see it as
20:02they walked in no no I'm not making any
20:04assumptions I'm just saying that the
20:05number of people who would have known in
20:07advance oh of course that the axe was
20:08there was very small that's very true
20:10yes all the training that we had the
20:13police have regarding homicide and
20:17violent crime this type of crime it
20:20tells us that it's someone close that
20:22it's not a stranger
20:24attack the attack on your parents was
20:28friend
20:29IED it was
20:32brutal it's the worst thing you could
20:34ever do to someone I
20:36think um
20:38it's obviously someone who is very
20:41angry it was a personal thing right it's
20:44a personal Thing by somebody who hated
20:48your parents so much they wanted to
20:50obliterate them I agree I'm not sure
20:53about hate I I don't know but I know
20:56anger there's no doubt there was anger
20:57in what happened
20:59the fact that whoever did this got out
21:02without leaving any DNA any blood
21:04evidence not even fingerprints on the
21:06acts really shows that it's not a random
21:09stranger crime detectives are in no
21:11doubt the Intruder had carefully planned
21:13and executed the attack some of the
21:16details of the crime scene were
21:18surprisingly familiar to them 2 years
21:21before Peter Porco had reported what
21:23appeared to be a series of break-ins at
21:25the house in which two laptops were
21:28stolen
21:29when I investigated a couple years prior
21:31to the homicide investigation the front
21:33windows were pred open and there was
21:36this long slit Mark in the cut in the in
21:39the screen to uh unlock the window and
21:42get it open when The Hite occurred there
21:45was a a similar slit in the screen that
21:49kind of made me think geez you know I
21:51have seen this before you know we didn't
21:53learn and get evidence that it was in
21:56fact Chris Porco who stole Those comp
21:58computers until we got this homicide
22:01investigation we learned that Chris
22:03Porco had eBay accounts we were able to
22:06trace one of his sales the sale of Janes
22:09laptop to a kid from uh San Diego
22:15California and you just took these
22:17laptops when you were at the home or did
22:19you break in and when I was
22:22home yep but you allowed your parents to
22:24think somebody else had done yes yep I
22:28mean that is a pretty unsavory thing to
22:30do to your parents because it makes them
22:32think they've had absolutely somebody
22:33intruding in the house
22:35absolutely to me what I did was
22:39Despicable and
22:41wrong and to some people maybe
22:43unforgivable but the attack on my
22:48parents is a whole different category of
22:53[Music]
22:55horrible there is another piece of
22:57evidence that seems to point directly
22:59towards Christopher's guilt Peter and
23:02Joan PCO had installed a home security
23:04system after the break-ins on the night
23:07of the murder that system was
23:10deactivated now whoever did it broke in
23:12using the alarm master code that I
23:15believe was only known to six people
23:18your parents Uncle John your godmother
23:21Margaret and you and your brother six of
23:23you knew that well it's correct that we
23:25those are the people that knew the code
23:27right so how could somebody have got
23:28into the house using the master code if
23:30it wasn't one of the six people I would
23:33not say that the person gained entry to
23:35the house at that time or using a code
23:40the alarm records show that it was on at
23:42the time you're saying that was faulty
23:44no I'm saying that the alarm was turned
23:47off at 2 something in the morning most
23:51likely my dad if I had to guess why
23:54would you do
23:55that um why would your dad get out of
23:57bed 2:45 in the morning turn off the
24:00alarm we don't know I given that they
24:02believe Intruders have been repeatedly
24:04breaking in to steal their
24:07possessions and they've intensified
24:09security to combat that here's what I
24:12don't get about what you're saying true
24:14you want us to think that your father
24:16gets out of bed at 2:14 a.m. mhm goes
24:20down and deactivates the alarm to the
24:22house not withstanding the fact they put
24:24it there because they believe there's
24:26somebody constantly breaking in steing
24:28their possessions what part of that
24:30makes sense my dad had a habit of
24:32turning the alarm off and forgetting to
24:35rearm it that was not something that but
24:37why would he get out of bed at 214 and
24:39do it to let the dog out at 214 most
24:41likely I think that's probably what
24:43happened yeah he was 11 years old at the
24:45time and needed to go out sometimes that
24:49was not unusual we subpoenaed the
24:51records for the alarm and for months and
24:54months and months it was the same
24:56pattern there was never over months and
24:59months and months of Records never a
25:01single time when that alarm was
25:04deactivated in the middle of the night
25:07just as detectives had noted 2 years
25:09earlier the screen on the window was
25:11again cut to allow it to be opened and
25:13although the alarm had been switched off
25:15using the master code the killer had
25:17nevertheless decided to smash up the
25:19control
25:21pad Chris Porco set the stage for those
25:25burglaries in 2002 and 2003 that's the
25:28exact same thing he did in the homicide
25:31uh scene so the pad was smashed to make
25:34it look like a stranger had done that
25:36but the brains of the alarm system in
25:38the basement had already registered at
25:402:14 a.m. that the master code had been
25:43used to deactivate the
25:45alarm I'll be honest with you I don't
25:47know what to think you don't come across
25:49as a mad ax killer and yet I know that's
25:52what you're here for I have a sequence
25:55of events before this happened of you
25:57being a liar a fraudster treating your
26:00parents despicably by your own admission
26:03uh treating them inhumanly making them
26:05in fear of their lives making them
26:07bolster security because of intruders
26:10that didn't exist and I just have to
26:12look at you as viewers will be and think
26:15is this guy
26:16capable of taking an axe in his hand and
26:20brutally murdering his
26:23father and then trying to brutally
26:25murder his mother including axing her in
26:27the head and face and that's the
26:30question people will be asking are you
26:32capable of doing that are you a mad axe
26:35killer no I I I had nothing to do with
26:38this but if it wasn't you was
26:42it I mean was something got pop into
26:45your head a little bit who would you
26:50guess why is Christopher Porco doing
26:53this interview now well he has an appeal
26:56going he has some lawyers working on it
26:58he wants a new trial hopefully to have
27:01his conviction overturned and the
27:03greatest thing he has going for him is
27:05the love and support of his mother
27:08shortly after the horrific attack on
27:10Joan Porco she recovers Consciousness
27:12and changes her story she now believes
27:15her son to be innocent and appeals to
27:18the court to be merciful at his
27:20sentencing I understand that the law
27:23requires you to impose a lengthy thren
27:26sentence
27:29however you do have
27:32discretion and I implore you to use that
27:35discretion to keep this sentence as
27:37short as possible please allow
27:40Christopher the opportunity to obtain
27:45freedom in my
27:49lifetime I believe him to be
27:53innocent what about your mother how
27:56often does she come and see you she's
27:58been a number of times we speak almost
28:01every day um I mean the extraordinary
28:03thing is your mother says she has no
28:05recollection at all of what happened
28:07that night she obviously with the way
28:10that she responded to questions in the
28:12Moment by the police that attended
28:15that's part of the reason that you're
28:17here convicted but she has defended you
28:20publicly yes ever since whilst
28:22acknowledging she has no memory of what
28:24happened yes she lost her husband
28:27someone she loved very deeply and was
28:29very happy with a mother's instinct
28:32might be in that circumstance that I
28:34don't want to lose a son as well you
28:36might do everything in your power to try
28:39and do that and operate under a form of
28:42self-denial simply because it's you Su I
28:45think that's very
28:47possible I think the biggest mystery of
28:50this case is whether Joan Porco knows
28:55that her son attacked her or not you
28:58know she's my mother no mothers want to
29:00believe that that son of course I I
29:02she's my mother she loves me
29:04unconditionally and I I have no doubt
29:05that if she believed I had done this she
29:07would still love me um I mean that's
29:10extraordinary it is it is she would
29:13still forgive you you think forgive I
29:16don't know I I think she would still
29:18love
29:20me if Joan were here speaking in my mind
29:25I think that she would reiterate that
29:28she is absolutely convinced that
29:30Christopher is innocent if she doesn't
29:33want her son to be in prison then she
29:36might just pretend she doesn't remember
29:38it's possibility right I I I take some
29:42offense to that um she's I just say it's
29:45a possibility she's an honest person she
29:47would absolutely not lie if she knew um
29:51there's no doubt that she she does not
29:53remember has she ever asked you
29:56Christopher did you do this
29:59it's a good question I don't believe so
30:00directly she may have at one point I I
30:03don't believe so she never asked
30:06you I'm not sure to be honest with you I
30:09don't
30:10know if Christopher Porco can convince
30:13his mother that he's factually innocent
30:14it gives him the confidence to believe
30:16that he might convince you but what I
30:19see as a psychopath who is exploiting a
30:22mother's love you come across as
30:24thoughtful sensitive intelligent
30:27articulate
30:29but if you're guilty then you just
30:31played me for the last 2
30:33hours here's the other problem I have no
30:36one else has ever been found there was
30:38no evidence of anybody else being in the
30:40property that's not true well who did
30:43they discover had been there who could
30:44have done this well there was forensic
30:46evidence from at least one other person
30:49and was that person investigated no so
30:52that person could still be out there
30:54they
30:55are you know we have a great system in
30:58our country it's probably the best in
31:00the world but it's it's adversarial the
31:03public still does not know much about
31:05this case that I feel resembles the
31:08truth ultimately I have faith in the
31:11system and my father held so dear and
31:14I'm confident that with time wrongs will
31:15be wred and when you say we have a great
31:18system in this
31:19country you're sitting here claiming to
31:22be a completely innocent man it's not
31:24perfect why would you think it's a great
31:26system if you've been framed for
31:27something you didn't do
31:28I I wouldn't say framed I wrongfully
31:30convicted but it isn't that the same
31:32thing Christopher is preparing a new
31:34appeal with the full support of his
31:36mother he hopes to prove not only that
31:38he is Innocent but to reveal who he
31:41believes committed the
31:45murder you know you're making me think
31:47about this but if it wasn't you who was
31:50it we we certainly have someone in mind
31:54who is that um it's someone who had a
31:58personal connection to my father through
32:01work someone who expressed a lot of
32:04anger right during this time frame
32:06through his lawyer who we've spoken to I
32:09am aware of a direct threat that was
32:11made to Peter I don't know the details
32:14of the threat I don't know who made the
32:16threat but it raised the thought in
32:19Peter's mind of having a gun in the
32:22office and you think he did it I had I
32:26know that he had a motive what was the
32:28motion um he felt that my father was
32:31meddling in
32:33a family court case that involved him
32:37there may have been other personal
32:38issues involved that I don't think it's
32:40appropriate for me to discuss have you
32:42told the police to investigate this
32:44other person no why not well they
32:47wouldn't really be interested in doing
32:49that right now I find that again I find
32:51that extraordinary so well you have to
32:53understand when this information became
32:55known to us yeah it was in the past
32:57several years years hang on I just need
33:00to understand why if you were told
33:02several years ago that there was
33:05somebody that may have done this to your
33:07parents who's still there and you know
33:10who it is we do but you wouldn't even
33:13tell the police we we that's part of the
33:15the process yeah but you're stretching
33:17my credulity
33:18here secondly why would you not put it
33:21in your extremely lengthy
33:24detailed process of appeal um
33:28I'm sensitive about publicly accusing an
33:31individual of murder without having
33:34pretty conclusive evidence that he's
33:37responsible um you know this person I
33:40I've never met him you know who it is
33:43Christopher doesn't want to publicly
33:44name this person who was the partner of
33:47one of Peter Porker's work colleagues we
33:49took that name to the
33:52police did you ever investigate the
33:56name I never even heard that name don't
34:00remember honestly
34:03sorry nothing comes to mind no it
34:06honestly
34:07doesn't sorry if there was a direct
34:10threat against Peter and we were aware
34:12of that that would have been pursued and
34:13investigated nothing nothing even
34:16remotely pointed toward this being
34:19anyone other than
34:21Chris like we discussed earlier it's
34:24very clear there was anger behind this I
34:27think this was a a an intentional act by
34:29someone who
34:30knew you know who they were after and
34:32what they were doing so you didn't put
34:35this man's name in your appeal document
34:39not yet do you intend
34:43to hopefully at some
34:46point trust me if you think somebody
34:48else has gotten away with the murder of
34:50your parents you want everyone to know
34:52their name but he's polite he's like I
34:53don't I don't want to I know what it's
34:55like to be falsely accused I want to
34:57take care of his due process rights and
34:59not name him because this person does
35:01not exist do we have a person in mind
35:05yes we do did that name just come out of
35:08The Ether no it did not but like I said
35:11it's not our burden to demonstrate who
35:13did this the point is is it was not
35:16Christopher here's my problem with this
35:19I'll be honest with you I don't know
35:20what to think you're very convincing
35:22you're very
35:24plausible you're intelligent as I've
35:26said before you clearly know all the
35:29details of the case you've had lived it
35:31for you had 15 years to talk it through
35:34I also understand from your appeal and
35:37the detail of the appeal that there are
35:39lots of questions that remain unanswered
35:41about this there definitely
35:44are Christopher it's been a fascinating
35:46interview yeah um thank you I honestly
35:50don't know what to
35:52think thank you for your time thank you
35:55I appreciate it
35:58[Applause]
36:00as you've discovered we want to be fair
36:01and open-minded about this well that's
36:03all I that's all I really want yeah
36:04we're just about trying to get to the I
36:06think it's important to recognize that
36:07there's a reason why I got convicted and
36:10it's not an easy thing to kind of look
36:12in the mirror and say like you're
36:14[ __ ] you know Christopher Porco is
36:16obviously highly intelligent he's got no
36:19record of violence and the questions I
36:23have to ask myself are two really one is
36:26he smart enough to covered his tracks if
36:29he did do this because there's hardly
36:31any evidence leing him to his crime I
36:33think he is he definitely is smart
36:36enough to have done that secondly is
36:38someone like him capable of taking an
36:41Axe and attacking his parents as they
36:44lay in bed that's the question I can't
36:47answer I still don't know
36:57[Music]
37:09I'm Emily compano as a lawyer I've spent
37:12many hours with convicted felons inside
37:15the walls of Prisons those are
37:17conversations and experiences you never
37:20forget now Piers Morgan is joining me
37:23here in a slightly less intense
37:25environment to take you inside the
37:28killer
37:31interview Christopher Porco you've
37:34called him the most unlikely killer
37:36you've ever interviewed tell us why the
37:39most Killers I've interviewed over the
37:41years they they're quite rough they're
37:44obviously dangerous people you can tell
37:47they have a look they have a manner they
37:50have a way about them where you just
37:53feel Menace exuding from their every
37:56poor PCO isn't like that he's calm he's
38:01intelligent he is extraordinarily normal
38:05to meet and to interview he's softly
38:08spoken he's not overly emotional he's
38:12not stupid he's a bright guy and you put
38:15it all together and you think is it
38:17really conceivable that somebody like
38:20this would go to his own parents bedroom
38:25with an
38:26axe and
38:28murder one and nearly murder the other
38:30and that was the bit for me which I
38:32found very hard to to definitively prove
38:37because the evidence against him is all
38:40circumstantial there's nothing actually
38:42forensic which Nails him and so you
38:46couple the kind of person he is with
38:49that and it doesn't quite add up
38:52honestly I did not think I was looking
38:54at a murderer nothing about him said I'm
38:58a Savage axe killer let alone of his own
39:03parents and it's a fascinating story
39:06because it obviously killed his father
39:09he's convicted of killing his father his
39:12mother survived and she believes
39:15him she thinks he's completely innocent
39:19so there you have a situation where he's
39:21convicted of taking an axe to his own
39:23mother and she survived but she believes
39:27him
39:27thinks he's been completely set up could
39:30never never ever hurt her and again you
39:34think if she's that
39:36sure did
39:38he what was your first impression of him
39:41and did that change ever my first
39:44impression was my last
39:46impression he can't have done this
39:48honestly he was just polite he was calm
39:53he
39:53was nothing like any prisoner I'd seen
39:56inside of Max from security prison in
39:58America nothing about him said to me
40:02he's a mad ax man now I know from
40:06criminal history there are people that
40:09do Despicable things who look and sound
40:11exactly like Christopher porker so I'm
40:13not completely deluded to the
40:16possibility he might have done it but
40:18when you add the lack of any real
40:20forensic evidence proving that he did it
40:23everything is circumstantial and some of
40:25it's quite compell in
40:28circumstantial you know he did steal
40:30things from his parents' home he did
40:33know how the locks worked etc etc
40:35there's lots of things you could point
40:36to and say yeah I mean look you all the
40:40prison officers afterwards I said to
40:43them what do you think I can't make my
40:45money well oh he did it he did it they
40:47were sure I wasn't so
40:50sure and he said to me they had his
40:54defense team had found another suspect
40:57I'll be very interested to see how that
40:59investigation plays out because it might
41:03be he's the victim as I said to him of a
41:05terrible miscarriage of justice and what
41:07a miscarriage that would be do you feel
41:10that you are a good detector if someone
41:12is lying I think as a a journalist of 30
41:15odd years I've always thought
41:17journalists lawyers and police
41:21detectives are all have a similar skill
41:24set you're a lawyer I'm a journalist we
41:27know detectives it's all the same kind
41:30of thing right you're going down the
41:32same process and you encounter a lot of
41:34good liars and your lie ometer if you
41:37like gets ever more finely tuned so I
41:41think I can normally tell a good liar
41:43pretty
41:44quickly and in his case he was very
41:48consistent in his story he was very
41:51emphatic he never lost his temper like
41:54some of them do with me he never hung
41:57himself on
41:59details now he's highly intelligent so
42:02whether he just had prepared for it in
42:05such a minuscule way that he could be
42:08that plausible or he genuinely didn't do
42:12it you mentioned earlier the Menace that
42:15you can feel emanating from Killers do
42:19the packages change or do the packages
42:22all look the same they can come in any
42:25packages for all I know you could be a
42:27terrible serial killer I'm not and you
42:30can tell I'm not no but it's it's you
42:32know in a way I'm joking but I'm also
42:35making the point that it it can be
42:36anybody in my experience of interviewing
42:39really bad people they can come in all
42:42walks of life they can come in all from
42:44any kind of societal class any form of
42:48intelligence very intelligent very
42:50stupid you know very well off very poor
42:54there's no real connecting Force that
42:57links Killers if you're in a gang that's
43:00different you know crimes of passion I
43:02always Park to one side too because in a
43:04crime of passion they tend to be
43:06instantaneous and full of regret
43:08afterwards these are different these
43:10killers I interviewed particularly the
43:12serial killers it's a methodical
43:14systematic destruction of other human
43:16beings and um it's they're fascinating
43:23[Music]
43:56do you still feel homicidal urges no
44:00never well if you push my trigger you're
44:04you're
44:04done Robert spahalski is a serial killer
44:07unlike any I've encountered before I
44:10mean what you're saying is if I press
44:11the wrong trigger with you in this
44:12interview absolutely you might feel
44:14homicidal
44:16absolutely he's a psychotic a soulless
44:19human being spahi he's like a lightning
44:22bolt that you can't see coming his
44:25crimes made him notorious I'm told
44:27spahalski can be volatile but he's also
44:30unique the prototypical serial killer
44:33kills strangers but he killed people
44:35that he knew she was making fun of him
44:38so he lost it and he uh he choked her to
44:45death that's really strange and it's not
44:48a one-off like a domestic this kept
44:50happening and happening and happening he
44:53said that um that he saw her as a demon
44:56coming after him so he found something
44:59that he could strangle her with and put
45:01her out of her misery I've been given
45:03one hour spahi to try and understand a
45:06serial killer who murders only those
45:08he's closest to I did not kill her and
45:11the people I did Kill they didn't suffer
45:13how can I believe you I don't care if
45:15you do you now
45:18[Music]
45:19[Applause]
45:28the chances of somebody walking in as
45:31Infamous as Robert spahalski admitting
45:34to murder are the same as winning a
45:37lottery during the '90s Bowski
45:40terrorized his neighborhood in Rochester
45:41Upstate New York killing friends
45:44neighbors and even lovers for almost 15
45:47years he played a game of cat and mouse
45:48for detectives but they could never
45:50catch him until one morning in November
45:532005 when Robert spahalski did something
45:56unheard heard of he turned himself in
45:59it's November the 8th um I'm working in
46:02the homicide unit and it's an average
46:04day for me I'm coming in the front doors
46:06of the public safety building I walk in
46:09and I look towards the headquarters desk
46:12and we see a male white standing there
46:14he looked Shaggy he looked like a street
46:16person possibly a crack addict when I
46:19first see him I I noticed the big
46:21forehead and and the shy hair and he
46:26looks like an old oldtime Hipp beat and
46:29Glenn and I look at each other and do a
46:32double take at him and realize although
46:34we hadn't seen him in years it was him
46:37and whatever he's saying is likely to be
46:39true he said it was his friend it's
46:41someone he got high with and that he
46:43doesn't remember but he was dead and
46:46everything changed right at that
46:50moment in 2005 you walked into a police
46:54station and you confessed absolutely to
46:58all four murders that you were convicted
47:00of and you knew all your victims which
47:03again is unusual these were people some
47:06cases they were personal relationships
47:08you were having absolutely I know
47:11previously you've tried to say you don't
47:14want to be known as a serial killer okay
47:16yeah why in my my mind's definition a
47:19serial killer is something that's
47:20predatory it's premeditation the people
47:23I kill it wasn't predatory and it wasn't
47:25premeditation when the those people died
47:27that day I didn't wake up I think I'm
47:29going to kill this person today my
47:31killings were not like that sir I didn't
47:32even know they were going to happen and
47:35the reason I'm doing this interview with
47:36you cuz I don't want to be seen as a
47:39serial killer I don't want to be I but
47:42Robert that's what you are I know but I
47:43didn't mean it tool there nothing you
47:45can do about that but you can't you
47:46can't tell the world you're not a serial
47:49killer when you have killed multiple
47:51people you are obviously a Serial then
47:54what I'm here is trying to say is why I
47:56killed those people it's not about how I
47:57kill it's
47:59why unlike other serial killers that
48:02I've interviewed who pick on random
48:03strangers they don't know and kill them
48:06spahalski picked on people he did know
48:08people he cared about perhaps even
48:12loved this is uh Lake Avenue in the city
48:15of Rochester we're going to head over to
48:18the uh address where Adrien Berger's
48:22body was found in the apartment that she
48:23lived in at the time of her death and
48:25that was uh July of
48:301991 Adrien burer She Was Your onoff
48:33Girlfriend yes for one year now you
48:36admit to killing her absolutely do sir
48:38did you love this person well not in
48:40love with her but I cared for her she
48:42was a friend of mine absolutely this was
48:44uh where Adrien burer lived at the time
48:46of her uh
48:48death uh when we arrived at the scene it
48:50was a hot uh humid July day uh there
48:54were several flies attached to the
48:56window both inside and out of the
48:58residence so at that point we realized
49:01that she had probably been there a while
49:03or at least decomposed
49:06fast it was the the dog days of summer
49:09I'll tell you that you know her body was
49:11parabol actually they couldn't determine
49:14whether she was a male or female she was
49:16so deteriorated from you know Decay
49:19Robert is absolutely Lucky in this case
49:22it was the fact that they couldn't tell
49:23for sure that she'd been murdered that
49:26let him off the
49:31hook why did you kill someone who you
49:34had a relationship but it was compulsive
49:36I didn't think about killing her I just
49:37wrapped my hands around her throw and
49:38strangle her to death it was it was like
49:40when when I was doing it I was it was
49:42like you when you turn the TV off
49:43there's that little white Little Dot you
49:45see in the middle of TV well that's what
49:47I was experiencing when I was taking her
49:48gift of life that's all I remember and I
49:51also remember thinking this has taken
49:53too
49:54long during his confession he said that
49:57uh they were on the couch and they were
49:59attempting to have sex together but he
50:03remained flaccid he couldn't get in
50:05Direction and that she was making fun of
50:07him so um he lost it he got snapped he
50:12got very angry and he uh he choked her
50:15to
50:17death your explanation for that is you
50:21completely lost control
50:23absolutely absolutely had she done
50:26anything
50:27to Warrant her death well to a friend of
50:30mine yeah she ripped up a $330,000 CH of
50:33my friends she threw pain all over the
50:35lady's house she was a terrorist so uh
50:38um I think me on a subconscious level I
50:40wanted to uh re resolve that problem
50:43with my with my friend you see that but
50:45that suggests Robert that you did give
50:47it some pre-thought why that suggests
50:49that your motivation for killing it was
50:51what she'd done to your friend well I
50:53think that doesn't sound to me if you
50:54don't mind me saying it doesn't sound to
50:56me like a spontaneous out of nowhere it
50:59was when I killed her psychosis it
51:00sounds like you wanted to punish her
51:02well on a subconscious level absolutely
51:05but on the conscious level I didn't
51:07experience those type of thoughts at all
51:09and I want you to understand that so I'm
51:13try I'm trying to understand that's what
51:14I'm saying so if it what motivated me to
51:16kill her on that compulsive level it was
51:18because I that subconscious programming
51:21in my mind of how she violated my friend
51:23all right but that's the only thing I
51:24had against her if if that's the reason
51:27why I actually killed
51:28her during the interview process he
51:32actually said to me it's not like a go
51:34around killing people all the time is as
51:36bizarre as anything anyone's ever said
51:37to me in my police career this is
51:40someone you've had an onoff relationship
51:42with for a year did you have any
51:44feelings of guilt or remorse no nothing
51:47at all never thought about it again sir
51:50you never gave her any more thought no
51:52not really when you think about it now
51:54because I'm asking you what do you think
51:56still don't what do you think about her
51:57now nothing it's like she didn't
52:01exist you have no thoughts about her at
52:03all no no right I'm being honest with
52:05you I don't have a conscience sir right
52:09do I feel remorse no I can
52:11intellectualize guilt I can
52:13intellectualize remorse but am I
52:15actually feeling it
52:17no see that that's extraordinary to
52:19listen to absolutely it is not a great
52:21thing sir I want to be normal just like
52:24all you people but my life has been
52:26anything but normal so is Bowski a
52:29product of where he grew up or was he
52:30born this way a ticking Time Bomb
52:33predisposed to killed the answer to that
52:36may lie here in the farmlands of Elmyra
52:39New York when you don't have a con you
52:41don't think about the repercussions
52:42right you just want the part chop you
52:43don't care how you got
52:45[Applause]
52:52it there is a serious drug problem in
52:54the city of Rochester in the 19
52:571980s crack cocaine is an
53:00epidemic and people wanting to sell
53:03crack cocaine are killing each other
53:05over the right to
53:06Turf by the mid 80s Robert spahalski is
53:09a regular face on the Mean Street to
53:11Rochester Upstate New
53:13York I lived in a very violent World sir
53:17I was a hardcore crack addict for 15
53:18years and addictions always controlled
53:21my life and my
53:23thinking I first heard of spsky during
53:26the late 80s he was kind of a um Jack of
53:29all trades type guy an opportunist he
53:31was involved in Street crimes burglaries
53:34uh drugs drug dealing um male
53:39prostitution watchest was perhaps the
53:41ideal playground for a killer like
53:44spahalski but where his story began
53:46could not be any more
53:49[Music]
53:51different I mean the Curious Thing to me
53:53is unlike most serial killers I've
53:56interviewed where normally there's a
53:57pattern in their lives of abuse at some
53:59stage physical or sexual has driven them
54:02to be the way they are there's the Ping
54:06upbringing terrible parents you had none
54:09of that none of that when all things go
54:10bad in my life period I go back to my
54:13childhood cuz that's where I feel the
54:14love so tell me about the early years
54:16and what life was like for you life was
54:19like was was great U my father uh owned
54:22his own business a grocery store uh we
54:25own 40 acres of land a nice Farmhouse
54:28could uh deer hunt we could fish so um I
54:31never went without
54:32lacking um was it a loving household
54:36absolutely both parents yeah um I love
54:39my mother as far much as I thought I
54:40could she was loving to you absolutely
54:43she was a ger what values did your
54:45parents try and instill in you honesty
54:49not to be hostile be
54:51open-minded um all all all the positive
54:55things but you Liv the opposite life a
54:58life of dishonesty and I don't
54:59understand that part of it I don't it's
55:01like there I'm I'm possessed with a
55:03different person in me um it's like a Dr
55:05Jacko Dr High type thing I I don't I
55:07can't explain
55:13it spahalski also admitted to another
55:16crime that happened back in 1991 in
55:19Webster the murder of 40-year-old
55:21Charles Grande spahalski told police he
55:23used to run a male escort service and
55:25that's how he met Grande Grande Charles
55:27Chuck Grande yes he was 40 uh he was
55:31someone you met on the bar scene he was
55:33a sexual partner was that in your
55:36existence as a male prostitute yes he
55:38was paying you for sex
55:43yes Charles uh is my brother and um we
55:48were growing up I always called him
55:51Chuck Charles Grande was
55:54bisexual he was a l landscaper from
55:58Rochester uh lived in the town of
56:00Webster Chuck was so much fun to be
56:03around um he was everyone's favorite
56:06mine my mom my dad and because it's just
56:10his personality was just you just if you
56:15knew him you loved
56:16him well that day the reason he died
56:19because that was 1991 and he called my
56:23phone number and when he called that
56:24number he that was he won the lottery to
56:27die that day and he won the lottery to
56:29die to die that day uh that I was
56:33mentally fixated at that stage I was not
56:37it wasn't a compulsive thing it was
56:39fixating on homicide and it wasn't
56:41particularly with
56:43him how did you kill him with a hammer
56:47yeah one blow well well the first one
56:50kind of glanced off on and shocked him
56:52for a minute but the second blow put him
56:54down forever
56:57after I killed him I was completely
56:58naked and I let up a cigarette and I
57:00sitting on his naked bag smoking a
57:02cigarette thinking about I don't
57:03remember that's how far gone I was there
57:06um I forget what I was thinking but uh
57:10um was I in reality
57:12no during the the time that we spoke
57:15with him he gives specific details that
57:17no one else would have known um he said
57:20that he turned up the thermostat uh to
57:22throw the police off and the medical
57:24examiner off to show that the body may
57:27have been there
57:29longer um that was just a um that was an
57:33aging Burger type thing uh because you'd
57:36seen from your previous victim yes
57:37absolutely heat would decompose the body
57:40absolutely I was
57:41there um I out of all the homicides he
57:45his his bothers me the most why because
57:48there there was a former premeditation
57:50and his death um because I did
57:54specifically go there with a hammer so
57:56that's premeditation so I feel Bartly
57:59even though I was in in a fixated even
58:01though I was in a cycle mode of
58:04homicidal fixation I still felt guilty
58:06because I still had presence of Mind of
58:09knowing I Hadar that hammer I mean again
58:10I would say just hearing this from you
58:13yes that both with Adrien berer and with
58:15Charles Grande in both cases it seems
58:17there was a premeditated feeling that
58:20you were having to do something bad to
58:23somebody neither of them seemed like
58:25completely
58:26spontaneous acts of violence it's been
58:29in your head simmering absolutely sir
58:31ready to blow
58:33absolutely absolutely
58:36no I guess never really thought about it
58:4020 years before Charles Grande was
58:42bludgeon to death with a hammer A store
58:44owner in Elmyra was murdered the exact
58:47same way and the killer sp's twin
58:51brother Steven
58:57[Music]
59:03do you still feel homicidal urges no
59:07never well if you push my trigger you're
59:10you're done um but you see that if I
59:14feel friend right but that in itself
59:16that's normal that that's
59:17self-preservation if it's not about
59:18self-preservation I don't feel h a
59:20satellite officer but what you just said
59:23I mean that sends a chill down my spine
59:25frankly
59:27I mean what you're saying is if I press
59:28the wrong trigger with you in this
59:30interview absolutely you might feel
59:31homicidal absolutely it's called genetic
59:34sir called genetics my twin I were born
59:37with Killer Instinct
59:38[Music]
59:40sir the spahalski brothers are that rare
59:43thing in the annals of crime twins both
59:46murderers who've killed
59:49separately yet their five siblings went
59:51on to lead completely normal lives what
59:55was it that made the these twins
59:58Killers have you been able to work out
1:00:01why you think that you and your twin
1:00:03brother went down One path and your
1:00:05siblings another absolutely um
1:00:08genetically my twin I were were born
1:00:10without a conscience from day one when I
1:00:12dropped my my mother's birth canal I
1:00:15I've always been the epitome of social
1:00:17dysfunction the spahalski came to BU
1:00:21attention probably around
1:00:241970 um they're a little hard to tell
1:00:27apart you essentially juvenile
1:00:29delinquents it was a
1:00:32competition outdoing one another but was
1:00:35a social misdirection what how we were
1:00:37behaving absolutely was Sir right and we
1:00:39were painting the balls with a lot of
1:00:40people out there to satisfy oural rushes
1:00:45were you surprised when Steven he was
1:00:47just 16 at the time when he killed
1:00:50Ronald Ripley no
1:00:56Steven for reasons that are unclear
1:00:59picks up a hammer and hits him over the
1:01:01head uh victim falls down the stairs to
1:01:04the foot of the stairs stevenh pounces
1:01:07on him turns him over and stabs him
1:01:09until he's
1:01:10dead but he hit him over the head with a
1:01:13hammer yes he did he then stabbed him in
1:01:15a frenzy stabbing 40 50 times it only 13
1:01:19times only 13 yeah I mean you say only
1:01:2213 but take a knife and stab a human
1:01:24being 13 times to me yes is an
1:01:29unthinkable thing to do absolutely you
1:01:31seem to think it was reasonable I'm
1:01:33going to be honest with you well
1:01:35resolved his way and now just all right
1:01:38you kill him good for you again I don't
1:01:40have a conscience sir I mean people who
1:01:43don't have a conscience tend to be
1:01:45categorized as either sociopaths or
1:01:48Psychopaths well I am considered a
1:01:50sociopathic psychopath because I don't
1:01:52have a
1:01:54conscience very often in layman's terms
1:01:56we say that sociopaths are made very
1:01:58often by lives of childhood abuse but
1:02:01psychopaths are born then I believe that
1:02:03he could be the rare example of the
1:02:06innate Bad
1:02:08Seed there are two peas in a pod they're
1:02:11they got the same chromosomes whatever
1:02:14and they just don't have that social
1:02:17control how did you feel when you
1:02:19learned that your brother several years
1:02:21ago had died your twin
1:02:23brother I felt relieved because uh I
1:02:26think he's in a better place like me he
1:02:29never had a chance in uh to function
1:02:31we're not we're not functionable I I
1:02:34mean I can function in society but not
1:02:36in the way you people genuinely do did
1:02:39you love your twin brother
1:02:41absolutely but you say you're not
1:02:43capable of a conscience either of you
1:02:46and yet you were capable you think of
1:02:48love I don't experience the emotional
1:02:50death you would feel through love on
1:02:52being lost and something like that when
1:02:54my father's father died my grandfather I
1:02:57laughed my balls off at his funeral cuz
1:02:59I knocked on his forehead it was rock
1:03:00hard we thought that was hilarious right
1:03:03as your kid it was no there was open pun
1:03:04casket yeah AB you actually yes you
1:03:07found it funny that his for was yeah I
1:03:10wasn't expecting that he feel that their
1:03:11hardness you know and you burst out
1:03:13laughing absolutely my father was pissed
1:03:15off about that almost surprised it's his
1:03:16father yeah it's pretty disrespectful
1:03:19yeah yeah well I wasn't thinking like
1:03:21that it was automatic you know automatic
1:03:22you know kiss like that I guess
1:03:25[Music]
1:03:30yeah the first time we ever saw him in
1:03:33person I felt like I was looking
1:03:36at a monster and he turned around he
1:03:40looked at my husband and I and he said
1:03:42you want to tell me why you keep looking
1:03:45at
1:03:46me between 1991 and 2005 there appears
1:03:50to have been a 14-year Gap in which
1:03:52Robert spahalski didn't kill anybody the
1:03:55reason
1:03:56a woman called Christine Gonzalez I
1:03:58wrapped my arms around her and looked
1:04:00her in the eyes did you ever tell her
1:04:03that you loved her yeah cuz I knew I
1:04:06would never see her again
1:04:15sir I saw Robert spahalski on the street
1:04:19many times when I was a uniform officer
1:04:21and would roll my window down and say
1:04:24than to him not necess very
1:04:26pleasant if Bowski is a natural-born
1:04:29killer as he claims could he really
1:04:31resist the urge to kill for 14 years
1:04:35between 1991 and 2005 there appears to
1:04:38have been a 14-year Gap in which you
1:04:40didn't kill anybody which seems unusual
1:04:45given that you
1:04:46killed so soon after a previous death
1:04:50before why was that well I think in part
1:04:53is he had a good girlfriend uh that I
1:04:56felt responsible for Christine Gonzalez
1:04:58yes uh I how did you meet her um I I was
1:05:02uh at that time I was mansion in a bunch
1:05:04of apartments for a realtor and she was
1:05:08I rented her apartment and uh nice one
1:05:10in the back what a PanAm view of the
1:05:12gorge and that's how I met her and were
1:05:15you in love with
1:05:17her um I loved her but I I've never been
1:05:21romantically in love with any woman
1:05:22which I regret I mean I had feelings for
1:05:24but not uh not deep like the kind of
1:05:27relationship I we really like did you
1:05:29ever tell her that you loved her yeah
1:05:32and she did you yes Christine and her
1:05:36kids uh they they're very fond memories
1:05:39of him apparently when he was not being
1:05:42a psycho
1:05:44killer she had three young grandchildren
1:05:47yes she did and you became quite close
1:05:49to them yeah absolutely in fact they
1:05:50knew you as Uncle boo boo yeah they were
1:05:53my social anchors and that's I think
1:05:55kept me from um going out there and
1:05:58hurting other people yeah were you
1:06:00capable of genuine emotion towards kid
1:06:02absolutely I T them kids fishing uh
1:06:05blowing up propane tanks uh riding bikes
1:06:09I was a good Mentor toward those
1:06:13kids yeah he's definitely creepy you
1:06:16know he's six he's like what 64 or
1:06:18something like
1:06:20that but I never felt that you know he
1:06:24would try to harm any any of us for any
1:06:27reason do you miss that world that you
1:06:30had in those years yes absolutely you
1:06:33know you had a loving relationship with
1:06:35a woman that do I miss that yeah clearly
1:06:37you cared about I uh I I grew up to be
1:06:39My Own Worst Enemy I flaunted my my life
1:06:42took life for granted why I did that I
1:06:45don't know um spah House's life with
1:06:48Christine Gonzalez he says stopped him
1:06:50from killing but on the night of
1:06:52November the 4th 2005 that repulsion to
1:06:56murder returned you then killed Vivian
1:06:59irari irari who was a close friend very
1:07:02good friend of your your love Christine
1:07:06Gonzalez absolutely um you described her
1:07:08as being like a sister to you absolutely
1:07:11did you have any previous no ill will
1:07:13towards no I love that lady to death I
1:07:16would never hurt that lady but I still
1:07:17ended up killing
1:07:19her the night before he turned himself
1:07:23in I was at his door knocking on his
1:07:25door
1:07:26asking them where's my mother no one's
1:07:29talked to her all weekend where is she
1:07:33and he said I haven't seen her since
1:07:36Friday I remember Robert saying they
1:07:39were smoking crack and that at some
1:07:41point he looked at viven and she was no
1:07:44longer his friend
1:07:46Vivien he said that he had smoked much
1:07:49crack that her face changed and she
1:07:51looked like a
1:07:53demon what I experienced with when I
1:07:55killed Vivian irari is a it's like time
1:07:58suspended itself into slow motion and
1:08:02you it wasn't in a positive way it's
1:08:04like the universe was breaking up or
1:08:08something it was weird it was very
1:08:15[Applause]
1:08:20soar initially he he bludgeons Vivian
1:08:24and then to complete the ACT he
1:08:27strangles her and he actually put um a
1:08:29ligature around her neck and then he
1:08:30used a garat which tightens it down and
1:08:33that was still on her body when I
1:08:35located her in the
1:08:36basement had I ever uh had a case like
1:08:40that never before and never
1:08:43since once you realized You' killed her
1:08:46this person that you loved like a sister
1:08:49did you have any feeling afterwards no
1:08:52with mental illness that's just
1:08:54collateral damage Catal damage it's
1:08:57chilling I know but when she came to my
1:08:59house that day I wasn't thinking about
1:09:00killing her but she still ended up dead
1:09:03because I developed a compulsive
1:09:04homicidal psychosis what triggered me to
1:09:07kill her I have no idea it's a mental
1:09:10illness our argument was yeah there was
1:09:13the devil the devil was was that little
1:09:15white rock that that he smokes up every
1:09:18hour on the hour when we asked the
1:09:21question are the drugs what made Robert
1:09:23spahalski commit these murders the
1:09:25bottom line is the drugs are a perfect
1:09:27excuse especially with his mental
1:09:29illness for that impulsivity to reign
1:09:32supreme when Christine realized you
1:09:35confessed to killing her best friend how
1:09:36did she react I have no idea I never
1:09:38seen her from the day I turned myself
1:09:40and I walk you never saw her again no
1:09:42before I turned myself in I walked her
1:09:44to work I wrapped my arms around her and
1:09:46looked her in the eyes and says honey I
1:09:49love you no matter what happens I love
1:09:51you she looked at me in a quizzical way
1:09:53and I just walked away from her I looked
1:09:56at her one last time and never seen her
1:09:58against her cuz I didn't want Christine
1:09:59to see your best friend being carried
1:10:01out of that house which is my primary
1:10:04concern this is why basically I turned
1:10:06myself in when he kisses Christina on
1:10:10the cheek and says I love you he is
1:10:13emulating normaly not to say he really
1:10:15is ethical or he feels remorse or regret
1:10:18but he feels like this is
1:10:20something that a good person would do
1:10:23and he owes it to Christine because she
1:10:24has believed in him like nobody else for
1:10:2714 years um I I painted myself into a
1:10:30corner when I killed somebody in my own
1:10:32house could I get rid of Vivian IR AR's
1:10:34DNA her blood all over the place no so I
1:10:37turned myself in shut myself down before
1:10:39I did something
1:10:40stupid on that day spahalski confessed
1:10:43to not one but four murders including
1:10:46Adrien burer Charles Grande and his
1:10:48neighbor Marine
1:10:50Armstrong but now he's changing his
1:10:53story I just thought that Marine
1:10:55Armstrong even a death she was a very
1:10:57beautiful loal woman I did not kill
1:11:00morine Armstrong sir I did
1:11:07not ever since last November when Robert
1:11:09spahalski walked into Rochester Police
1:11:11Headquarters and confessed to killing
1:11:13four people we've heard all about him
1:11:15including his description by some media
1:11:17as a serial
1:11:19killer he certainly did not want that uh
1:11:23the stigma of being labeled the serial
1:11:25kill
1:11:26that's not the company he wanted to keep
1:11:28krie Patterson's niece Lorraine
1:11:30Armstrong was spolsky's first victim do
1:11:32you think there's anything inside that
1:11:34man a soul a heart anything no there's
1:11:36nothing inside of him whether spahalski
1:11:39likes it or Not by killing three or more
1:11:41people on separate occasions he is by
1:11:44the FBI's definition a serial
1:11:48killer it's been over a decade since
1:11:50bajowski confessed to those four murders
1:11:53including his neighbor Marine armr
1:11:55strong but now he's telling me it was
1:11:57all lies did I know her did she live
1:12:00across the street from me yes did I kill
1:12:03her no I was never in her dwelling but
1:12:05why would you have admitted when you
1:12:07made your confessions well they walked
1:12:09me those detectives walked me into that
1:12:13one Marine Armstrong was a uh uh single
1:12:17female uh
1:12:19African-American she was involved in uh
1:12:22prostitution and
1:12:24narcotics Robert spahalski at the time
1:12:26lived uh right across the street in a
1:12:28large apartment building um it was uh
1:12:31New Year's Eve and he said he went over
1:12:34there to use drugs with her and um I
1:12:37have sex with
1:12:38her he caught her taking money from him
1:12:43and he became violent they were already
1:12:45high and uh he strangled
1:12:49her I just took the bullet for her death
1:12:52so that her mother after 15 years of of
1:12:55not having any closure I gave her
1:12:57spiritual closure and social closure
1:12:59saying yes I killed your daughter but I
1:13:01didn't trust me but you gave
1:13:03details which only the killer would have
1:13:05known how can I believe you I don't care
1:13:08if you do you don't I'm I'm sure you
1:13:10don't I'm just saying how can
1:13:15I he mentioned that he had taken a cord
1:13:19and wrapped it around her neck I says
1:13:22well was there anything on the cord or
1:13:24was it just a plane cord he says well it
1:13:26was uh it was attached to an
1:13:29iron that is certainly something only a
1:13:32person responsible for that crime would
1:13:34have
1:13:36known Roberts spahalski now says that he
1:13:40didn't actually kill morine Armstrong I
1:13:42think this is because he doesn't want to
1:13:45be tagged a serial killer but you can't
1:13:49you can't come close to believing
1:13:51him when I opened up that that that can
1:13:53of worms with Marine armr taking the
1:13:55bullet for that I was profiled and I
1:13:58made a big mistake I did because the FBI
1:14:01profiled me as uh killing uh prostitutes
1:14:04like Marine Armstrong I never killed a
1:14:06prostitute in my life I was a prostitute
1:14:08back in those years as a male escort
1:14:11bisexually but anyway yes I am a serial
1:14:14killer because I did Kill multiple times
1:14:16but I do not enjoy killing people and
1:14:18the people I did
1:14:20Kill they didn't suffer sir it wasn't
1:14:22about torture sex money nothing it was
1:14:24just spontaneous you're
1:14:27dead how many people are lucky to be
1:14:30alive without even realizing it because
1:14:33you may have come close to having that
1:14:35feeling about them I wasn't out of
1:14:37control like that sir you you were
1:14:39completely out of control with the
1:14:40murders you committed absolutely
1:14:42absolutely so my my question really is
1:14:44how many other times have you felt like
1:14:46that and had a thought about somebody
1:14:49and then not executed The Killing I
1:14:52don't know I have a lot of blackouts
1:14:54because of
1:14:55um it it takes us tall ler you must have
1:14:59had other homicidal thoughts oh probably
1:15:03did amongst many troubling aspects of
1:15:06this case one in particular I find hard
1:15:08to believe that 14-year Gap M spahalski
1:15:12says he resisted that compulsion to kill
1:15:15it doesn't seem plausible does it you
1:15:17clearly were capable of extreme violence
1:15:20taking people's lives and not really
1:15:21caring yes it has to be possible that
1:15:24you took other lives I just want to ask
1:15:27you one more time did you take other
1:15:29lives we don't know about absolutely
1:15:32not and if you had you would tell me yes
1:15:35sir there's one there's one picture I
1:15:37just want to show
1:15:38[Music]
1:15:45you my
1:15:47mother
1:15:49was completely
1:15:52heartbroken when Chuck died
1:15:55I don't know if she want to live
1:15:57anymore I seek
1:16:00Comfort because of
1:16:03uh like how good you felt with your mom
1:16:07you only get
1:16:10one so yeah oh see
1:16:13Comfort he doesn't deserve to live I
1:16:16would
1:16:18say no I don't I don't think I'd be
1:16:21happy when he dies cuz it's just a sad
1:16:27person do you get any visitors here I
1:16:30got one good friend that I knew up back
1:16:32in the day from 50 something years ago
1:16:35she's come into my life and uh she helps
1:16:38me with money packages uh on
1:16:40conversation why because she knows
1:16:43what's in my heart she's know she knows
1:16:45that whatever I did it was because the
1:16:48drugs are something she believes that
1:16:51underneath all this absolutely sir
1:16:52there's a good heart She Believes In Me
1:16:54absolutely and do you believe there's a
1:16:56good heart underneath it absolutely but
1:16:58if you had a good heart Robert you would
1:17:00be capable of looking back on the
1:17:03terrible crimes you've committed right
1:17:05and expressing genuine remorse and guilt
1:17:08and you'd apologize how many times can
1:17:10you kick yourself and ask doing that in
1:17:12your life peers how many times do I have
1:17:15to do that for the rest of
1:17:17Eternity in our minds there's no doubt
1:17:20that he has committed more murders
1:17:22specifically we're very convinced that
1:17:24he murdered Hortense
1:17:26greatart as we see in the police world I
1:17:29liked him for that case a
1:17:31lot this is uh Hortense great heart I
1:17:35know you know who she is you remember
1:17:37her yes she was a downstairs neighbor of
1:17:41yours you knew her
1:17:43well not really I've seen her around she
1:17:46Liv right downstairs from me in 2003 she
1:17:49was strangled yes in the way that you
1:17:51strangled the two women that you do
1:17:53admit killing
1:17:55the thermostat was turned up which is
1:17:58what you did I don't believe that it was
1:18:00a summer day well the thermostat was
1:18:02turned up there were just too many um
1:18:06similarities he lived in the same
1:18:08building she was strangled and then
1:18:11there's uh the
1:18:13thermostat and that is why the
1:18:15police strongly believe that you must
1:18:18have been the one who killed her because
1:18:20he strangled her and the thermostat was
1:18:22turned off that's what they believe yes
1:18:24abolutely did you kill her no I'm just
1:18:26being profile that's
1:18:30all we promised him that the DA's office
1:18:33had no interest in charging him with any
1:18:35more crimes that he was locked in and
1:18:37locked down forever and uh he wouldn't
1:18:40admit to it I don't know why you could
1:18:42give Comfort to the family of hent
1:18:45greatart yes if you did kill her you
1:18:48could give them Comfort now in just
1:18:50admitting it yes absolutely can it
1:18:52wouldn't change your life but it would
1:18:54dramatically
1:18:55change theirs it would give them some
1:18:57closure absolutely but I can't I can't
1:19:00provide that to
1:19:01her at
1:19:03[Music]
1:19:09all Robert spahalski even if he killed
1:19:12Hortense greatart is not going to admit
1:19:14to it because he gets nothing out of
1:19:18it it's also possible that he may have
1:19:21selective Amnesia and simply not
1:19:24remember it he may get flashes that come
1:19:26back and haunt him but he's never really
1:19:29sure if they're just kind of LSD
1:19:31flashbacks or whether he really did them
1:19:33so why confess to something that he's
1:19:35not sure about
1:19:36himself finally for all the relatives of
1:19:40those people you did Kill yes this is a
1:19:43chance for you to say something to them
1:19:45yes what would you like to say I would
1:19:47say that I'm very sorry that I
1:19:49devastated their lives that I took their
1:19:51loved ones lives I did not mean to
1:19:54mental defect they di anybody that I
1:19:57killed died relatively quick with no
1:20:01pain that's what I want them to know sir
1:20:05yes but it wasn't out of disrespect or
1:20:08or or or because I got off on killing
1:20:10them it wasn't about that thank you for
1:20:12your time yes sir thank you I I
1:20:15appreciate you you're more dimensional
1:20:17than these other interviews I've had
1:20:18what sir more dimensional you've gotten
1:20:21more deeper you're the kind of person
1:20:23I've wanted to talk to about these
1:20:24deeper issues am I insane most likely
1:20:27but not but not insane where I don't
1:20:29know where I am right
1:20:31understand it was quite unsettling
1:20:33interview particularly when very early
1:20:36on he almost put a threat down you press
1:20:41the wrong trigger point and I won't be
1:20:43responsible for what happens I've never
1:20:45had that in any interview I've done with
1:20:47any criminal and unlike other serial
1:20:49killers I've interviewed who pick on
1:20:52random people they don't know and kill
1:20:54them
1:20:55he only picked on people he cared about
1:20:58or even perhaps in his own way loved and
1:21:01that's what makes him so unique and so
1:21:13dangerous I'm Emily compano as a lawyer
1:21:17I've spent many hours with convicted
1:21:19felons inside the walls of Prisons those
1:21:21are conversations and experiences you
1:21:24never forget now Piers Morgan is joining
1:21:27me here in a slightly less intense
1:21:30environment to take you inside the
1:21:32killer
1:21:37interview when I was a young attorney
1:21:40the first time that I interviewed a
1:21:43convicted felon inside prison I'll never
1:21:47forget uh when the security guard
1:21:49started walking out and shut the door I
1:21:51turned to him and I said wait you're
1:21:52leaving and he said yeah
1:21:55what was it like for you when those
1:21:57doors shut look there were some people
1:22:00interviewed in this series Robert
1:22:01spahalski would be one uh where I was
1:22:04warned he'd broken out of handcuffs with
1:22:06his own bare hands and I should be
1:22:09careful about angering
1:22:11him and there's a good reason for that
1:22:14because in a Flash he killed people so
1:22:18he threatened you and there were no
1:22:20handcuffs so what did that feel like it
1:22:23felt intimidating
1:22:25I mean that was probably the most
1:22:26intimidated I've ever felt interviewing
1:22:29any inmate ever because I knew he was
1:22:32capable of on a whim even to people that
1:22:36he was very close to girlfriends friends
1:22:39of long standing on a on a whim on the
1:22:44toss of a dime he could be explosively
1:22:47violent and then he would have no
1:22:49remorse he had no remorse this wasn't
1:22:52some guy just killing random people in
1:22:54the tree which some of these killers are
1:22:57this was somebody killing people he knew
1:23:00but just because one day he woke up and
1:23:01they annoyed him and I said you know
1:23:04should I be concerned and it's a really
1:23:06quite unsettling exchange when he sort
1:23:10of explained that if I was to trigger in
1:23:12the wrong way then yeah yeah it was
1:23:16pretty clear what he was getting at that
1:23:18you know I should be careful and I was
1:23:21careful I'm not stupid and he's a very
1:23:25big guy capable of explosive extreme
1:23:29violence and I'd already been warned by
1:23:31one of the prison officers be careful
1:23:33with this
1:23:34one there's a difference between anxiety
1:23:38and fear did you feel fear ever I would
1:23:42say more adrenaline I I don't think I
1:23:45was fearful I was wary I do remember
1:23:48after that a long drive back to New York
1:23:50City about 5 hours from upstate and I do
1:23:54remember when I got back to my hotel
1:23:57feeling really weird and I had a long
1:24:00shower and I glugged a little bit too
1:24:03much wine a little too quickly and I
1:24:06felt very unsettled the most unsettled
1:24:08I've ever felt after an interview he
1:24:11really did quite disturb me we saw your
1:24:14audio guy taking his microphone off what
1:24:17did your crew think of this you know we
1:24:19all came away afterwards and it was
1:24:21during the co pandemic so we wore masks
1:24:23we sh added a kind of surreal feel to it
1:24:26anyway made it all feel a little bit
1:24:28creepier it was quite a small room so it
1:24:30got very intense the interview and
1:24:33afterwards I remember my my uh top
1:24:36producer just said to me wow and I went
1:24:40yeah and we walked away and we were like
1:24:43that was just incredible but it was
1:24:45because the atmosphere was
1:24:48charged he was throughout the entire
1:24:51exchange for over an hour radiating a a
1:24:56menace which I found quite intimidating
1:24:59why do you think he cared so much about
1:25:01being labeled a serial
1:25:03killer he was strangely concerned about
1:25:07how he was
1:25:10labeled And yet when I really pushed him
1:25:12about how did he feel about these
1:25:14victims who he had brutally murdered he
1:25:17felt nothing did nothing so in a way he
1:25:21was a psychopath sociopath I mean
1:25:24there's not a lot of difference between
1:25:25the two things but it means really
1:25:26they're not capable of normal human
1:25:28emotion if you or I killed somebody in a
1:25:31moment of explosive rage we probably
1:25:33regret it for the rest of our lives and
1:25:35we would feel awful afterwards he felt
1:25:38nothing even in the immediate aftermath
1:25:40surrounded by Blood and Mayhem from his
1:25:44murderous barbaric Behavior he felt
1:25:47nothing never looked back and that that
1:25:50to me added to the sense of danger about
1:25:53him because somebody that can do that
1:25:56and feel nothing about the victims at
1:25:59all and has never given them another
1:26:01moment's thought till I've asked him
1:26:03about them that's scary why then
1:26:06suddenly do you think he turned himself
1:26:08in I I don't know why he turned himself
1:26:10in and he wasn't really particularly
1:26:13plausible in his own version of why he'd
1:26:15done it other than he just decided to do
1:26:18it I mean he was he wasn't a guy that
1:26:21thinks like a normal human brain anyway
1:26:24so I think almost everything he did was
1:26:27kind of
1:26:28inexplicable uh
1:26:29including randomly turning himself in
1:26:33there was no real reason he should have
1:26:35done that other than he did it no real
1:26:37reason he should have killed the people
1:26:39he killed other than he just woke up one
1:26:41day and felt like it literally do you
1:26:44accept that as certainly not
1:26:46justification but as his reason for do
1:26:49you feel satisfied as a journalist or as
1:26:51a human that while that explanation is
1:26:53woefully inadequate and of course never
1:26:56acceptable it's his reason and
1:26:59therefore Case Closed what I've learned
1:27:01about Psychopaths and I think he is one
1:27:04is they are medically wired in a way
1:27:09chemically wired really in a way that
1:27:11doesn't allow them to feel normal human
1:27:14emotion and once you know that about
1:27:17somebody the rest is more explicable
1:27:20because he's one of those guys he is to
1:27:23void
1:27:24of normal human
1:27:30[Music]
1:27:53emotion for

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