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The Key to Happiness: Get Married! | Brad Wilcox Interview — Transcript

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0:02Often times the number one factor here
0:05in why our country is not doing well in
0:08these three areas, [music]
0:09life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, is
0:11because marriage and family [music] are
0:14failing, you know, or they're not
0:16happening in the first place.
0:17>> For the last 10 years, social scientists
0:19have [music] documented growing
0:20problems. Depression, loneliness,
0:24suicide, crime, violence.
0:27>> When it comes to sort of money and
0:28[music] health, pretty important
0:30concerns I'd say for most of us,
0:31especially as we get a bit older.
0:32>> Clearly, we're all in this together.
0:35You want meaning, purpose, success.
0:38How about happiness?
0:40You want to do something good [music]
0:42for others.
0:43>> It really helps to have a spouse at your
0:45side, no question.
0:46>> The good news is there's always time.
0:48It's never too late. Today, we have the
0:51answer right here. The University of
0:53Virginia sociologist Brad Wilcox. Brad's
0:56the director of National Marriage
0:58Project, the senior fellow of the
0:59Institute of Family Studies, and a
1:01senior fellow at the American Enterprise
1:03Institute. He's a leading national
1:06expert.
1:07>> Now we're in a moment where um marriage
1:09rates have hit record lows and we're
1:12projecting, you know, [music] um record
1:14lows of adults who are going to be ever
1:15marrying. And so I think it's time to
1:17push push the pendulum [music] in the
1:19opposite direction towards embracing
1:21folks to, you know, to uh get married.
1:24>> The answer is simple.
1:26It's been here all along.
1:28Welcome to Praxis Circle.
1:37Brad, thank you for hosting us
1:39here in the Colonnade Club on the lawn
1:41right here.
1:43And I can look a little bit to the left
1:44and see the Rotunda just over your
1:47right shoulder. Um
1:49but let's get right into it. Let me ask
1:51you right up front, how did you develop
1:53a strong interest in family?
1:55>> Yeah, no, thanks, Doug. It's great to be
1:57here. Um so, I was raised by a single
2:00mom in Connecticut and then came down to
2:02UVA uh here um as an undergraduate and
2:06over the course of my career at the
2:08University of Virginia kind of came to
2:09this recognition that you know, um that
2:13dads were important for kids um and that
2:16marriage was institution that connected
2:18typically, you know, men to their kids.
2:20Um and so, it was kind of like that
2:22recognition
2:23uh while studying here at UVA and kind
2:25of interacting with professors at UVA
2:28um on these questions and issues that
2:30kind of led me to wanting to to sort of
2:32focus, you know, uh on a career in
2:35sociology on the study of marriage and
2:37family um and and religion as well in
2:40America.
2:42The National Marriage Project at the
2:43University of Virginia is dedicated to
2:44kind of basically studying the American
2:47family and studying especially the role
2:48that marriage plays um in in American
2:51life and then also kind of providing a a
2:53platform for us to have important public
2:55conversations
2:56about marriage and family life in
2:58America here at the University of
3:00Virginia.
3:02And then means your family studies is
3:03really focusing on public education
3:05around family questions and issues and
3:07increasingly I'm kind of looking at
3:09public policies that can strengthen and
3:12stabilize uh marriage and family in
3:14America. So, one's more academic and one
3:16is focused more on kind of thinking
3:18about and educating the public with
3:21regards to and working to to identify
3:23policies that can strengthen um and
3:26stabilize family life in the United
3:28States.
3:30>> Would would you be willing to talk a
3:32little bit about your own family and and
3:34maybe how that relates to your interest?
3:36>> Sure, yeah. So, um I've been married now
3:38more than 30 years. I met my wife
3:40Danielle uh here at UVA. In fact, we
3:43kind of had our first uh meeting on the
3:45lawn here uh you know,
3:47>> [laughter]
3:48>> many years ago now. Um we got married
3:51and had kids um after, you know,
3:54graduating from UVA. Um, we now have
3:57nine kids, five adopted kids, and then
4:00four biological kids including two
4:01twins. So, um, our household is always
4:05very busy, very noisy. Um, but certainly
4:10life is full.
4:11Um, and I think one of the things that,
4:14you know, I appreciate about having a
4:16lot of kids is that I'm 55 now and I
4:20still have relatively young children in
4:22the household that sort of keep me on my
4:24toes. You know, tonight I'm going to go
4:26to a basketball game with my daughters
4:28playing, you know, in the summers I'm
4:30always in the water with a child, a
4:32different kids over the years. But,
4:34there's just something sort of
4:35life-giving to me as a middle-aged guy,
4:38you know, when it comes to, you know,
4:39having a big crew you know, at home. And
4:42so, I'm I'm really grateful that I have,
4:45you know, a lot of children because my
4:48life is uh so much more meaningful, you
4:51know, for having all these kids in my
4:54life.
4:55>> So, it's it's really your your living
4:57laboratory experiment about what you're
4:59looking at. It's very It's kind of hard
5:01to do a laboratory setting for studying
5:04families, isn't it?
5:05>> Yeah, no. I mean, I think that sort of
5:07the joke is, you know, when I was
5:08studying, you know, family sociology at
5:11Princeton as a graduate student, I was I
5:13was I thought myself was kind of an
5:14expert on on marriage and fatherhood.
5:17Um, and then, you know, you start having
5:19kids and you are quickly humbled. You
5:22realize how much you don't know. You
5:25realize how many mistakes that you make
5:27as a husband and father. Um, and so, you
5:29know, having kids, you know,
5:32has certainly made me a lot more humble
5:33about kind of the the advice that I give
5:36and, you know,
5:38thinking of myself as like an expert
5:40because, you know, and my wife too
5:43laughs at this idea that I'm, you know,
5:44the marriage expert, you know, cuz she
5:46can point out, you know, any number of
5:48ways, you know, that I have failed and
5:50that I fail on a regular basis. So,
5:51again, kind of the benefit of being
5:53married and having a lot of kids is that
5:55it does, you know, really keep you
5:57humble. You recognize that you don't
5:59know everything and that you're kind of
6:00constantly in need of of correction and
6:04of reformation in terms of just trying
6:06to to do this thing and that thing
6:08better as a spouse and as a parent.
6:10>> The world-famous brain surgeon who's not
6:13very good with his hands. I know that I
6:15know the feeling.
6:16As you know, Practice Circle is about
6:19worldview,
6:20>> Right.
6:20>> which is a a word a lot of people use
6:23walking around and I think very few
6:25people understand that it's actually a
6:27metaphysical concept like philosophy or
6:31theology. Do Do you ever think about it
6:34that way or have a walking around
6:35definition for it?
6:37>> Yeah, so one of the the professors that
6:39I studied with here at the University of
6:40Virginia is James Davison Hunter and he
6:42wrote a book called Culture Wars, where
6:44he kind of articulates that there are
6:46kind of in some ways two different kinds
6:49of worldviews that are sort of governing
6:51guiding how Americans approach, you
6:54know, major issues of public
6:55consequence. One would kind of be
6:57probably described as sort of a more of
6:58orthodox worldview, where people kind of
7:01have the sense that there is kind of,
7:03you know, either a God or some kind of
7:05natural law that sort of governs and
7:07guides our lives, provides us kind of an
7:09exterior standard against which we're
7:11trying to sort of live our lives. And
7:14then there's a kind of more progressive
7:15worldview, where people have the sense
7:17that sort of like what is true, what is
7:20good is sort of changing from one period
7:22to the next. And I would kind of
7:25gravitate towards the orthodox
7:26worldview, would sort of say that there
7:28are kind of objective standards,
7:30objective norms, you know, that we need
7:32to kind of basically conform our lives
7:34to and we need to sort of understand and
7:36appreciate. We can sort of obviously see
7:38them
7:39in ways that [clears throat] are going
7:40to be in some ways um
7:43you know, we indistinct like we're going
7:45to be often sort of struggling to kind
7:47of understand them to some extent, but
7:48we're kind of aiming to appreciate that
7:51there are these sort of unchanging
7:52principles
7:53um that should be informing our our our
7:56lives. And then of course that relates
7:57to us sort of how we think about you
7:59know, marriage and family in particular.
8:01So I do kind of talk about both the
8:02progressive and the orthodox worldviews
8:04in my class um here at UVA sociology
8:07family and in so doing kind of rely on
8:09my old teacher, my old mentor James
8:11Hunter.
8:13>> Well, you mentioned Dr. Hunter obviously
8:15and and I've been following him since
8:17the '90s and and
8:18>> Right.
8:19>> UVA is extraordinarily lucky to have
8:21somebody like that who
8:23>> Yes. [clears throat]
8:23>> can can bring all these ways of thinking
8:26together and and put it in his uh
8:29terrific magazine that he does.
8:32How important is worldview to a
8:35successful marriage? And let's put it
8:37this way.
8:37>> Yes.
8:38>> Suppose let's get right to the
8:40political.
8:42Can people Can somebody on the left
8:44marry somebody on the right? Is that
8:46dangerous or is it uh
8:49Do you have anything to say about that?
8:51Cuz
8:52>> I think It actually I think I think the
8:53way you're framing it is exactly
8:54correct, right? So I I think the issue
8:56is worldview.
8:58And so what we are now seeing Doug is
9:00that we are living in a world and I'm
9:02not sort of celebrating this. I'm I'm
9:04really lamenting this, but we're we're
9:05living in a world where increasingly
9:07what's happening and this could change,
9:09right? But what's happening is that
9:10people who kind of embrace a more
9:12progressive worldview
9:14are much less likely today to get
9:16married and to have children.
9:18We're seeing about a
9:2040 percentage point gap between liberal
9:23young women and conservative young men
9:26in the odds that they are parents in
9:28that kind of key 25 to 35 age bracket.
9:31That's sort of one example of the sort
9:33of growing divide in the connection
9:35between worldview and family life here
9:38in America.
9:40And of course, if we were to kind of
9:42come back, you know, and have this
9:43conversation in 1965, for instance,
9:47there wasn't kind of a huge divide in
9:50sort of orientations to marriage and
9:52family
9:53between kind of conservatives and
9:55liberals or between Republicans and
9:57Democrats. But there is now today, Doug,
9:59a growing divide. And it's really, I
10:01think,
10:02tragic in two senses. One is that I
10:05think that liberals
10:07are not able often times to fully
10:10embrace and articulate the value of
10:13marriage and family life in their public
10:17capacities as, you know, professors or
10:20school superintendents or journalists or
10:22senators, for instance.
10:24Um, but it's also tragic, too, because
10:27liberals benefit from marriage and
10:30family life as well in much the same way
10:32as conservatives do. So, I just think
10:33that a lot of liberals are not, you
10:35know, benefiting from entering into
10:37marriage and having kids and families.
10:39Um, and and they're kind of paying a
10:41personal price, you know, for that as
10:43well.
10:43But to answer your final question, yeah,
10:45I do think, um,
10:47basically people should not marry, um,
10:53someone who doesn't kind of share their
10:56fundamental
10:58uh, worldview. Um, and so, you know, if
11:01there are clear differences of opinion
11:04about kind of the importance of marriage
11:06and family, for instance,
11:07if one person has this idea that
11:10marriage is a commitment for a life, you
11:11know, kind of till death do us part, um,
11:14idea, and the other person that you're
11:16dating has this idea that marriage is
11:18kind of or love kind of is good for as
11:21long as you have that feeling of being
11:23kind of in love, um, but that divorce
11:26would be warranted like if that feeling
11:28goes away,
11:30that's a recipe for disaster, right? So,
11:32I think you just need to be attentive to
11:34the importance of
11:35of marrying someone who shares your
11:38commitments around
11:40marriage.
11:41Republicans, Democrats, sure, they can
11:43get married, no problem. But, the the
11:45key thing here, Doug, is to sort of
11:46marry someone who's on roughly the same
11:48page with you in terms of your your
11:50basic and fundamental understanding of
11:52what it is you're doing when it comes to
11:54getting married and having a family. And
11:56if they don't share your key values on
11:57those questions, probably best to kind
12:00of end the relationship and and find
12:02someone else to marry.
12:06>> You know, we we've This is we've done
12:08somewhere around 50 interviews now, and
12:10um
12:11sure, they're mostly uh
12:14in the center politically, but we've
12:16interviewed up to 10 different
12:18worldviews and from
12:20the far left to to the not the far right
12:23so much, but in the center, and you can
12:25line up scholars a stack high that says
12:28that marriage is the center of
12:30civilization. There's never been a
12:32civilization built that wasn't founded
12:34on the family. It's just never happened.
12:37Um so, let's get to where civilizations
12:40are built today, and that is at
12:42universities. You're filled with
12:43students. Uh you've been teaching now
12:46for a long time.
12:47>> Right.
12:47>> Uh
12:48it used to be thought that we don't want
12:50to tell them what to think, we'll let
12:51them come and explore. But, what I know
12:53the research is showing that students a
12:55lot of students really actually want to
12:57know what the wisdom is because that's
12:59why they're here. So, here's your wisdom
13:01question.
13:03If you want to be happy in life, if you
13:05want to be happy and and maybe
13:07successful in life,
13:08>> Yes.
13:09>> what's the key, Dr. Wilcox?
13:11>> Yeah, that's a great question. I've been
13:12yeah, teaching here for more than 20
13:14years at Mr. Jefferson's University.
13:16He's famous for obviously a lot of
13:17things, including founding UVA, but
13:19probably most famous for being the
13:20primary author of the Declaration
13:23of Independence, where he talks about
13:24the importance of life, liberty, and the
13:27pursuit of happiness. And on that last,
13:30you know, phrase, the pursuit of
13:31happiness, what I've really been
13:33underlining in my class here at UVA in
13:35sociology of the family, to my UVA
13:37students, is that when it comes to the
13:38pursuit of happiness, it looks like,
13:41from my reading of the data, that there
13:43is nothing more central to the kind of
13:46successful pursuit of happiness
13:48than forging a strong and stable
13:50marriage, a good marriage, basically.
13:53That when you kind of look at the data,
13:54nothing, you know, not a good job, not
13:56money, not health, not even regular
13:59religious practice
14:00compares to a good marriage in
14:03predicting
14:05forging a meaningful and happy life in
14:08America today. And a lot of my students
14:10at UVA are so kind of surprised to learn
14:13that.
14:14And that's because they tend to be off a
14:16sort of operating from what I call kind
14:18of like a Midas mindset, where what's
14:20really important is education,
14:24money, and especially work. They have
14:26kind of the operating assumption here
14:27often times that what really matters for
14:30my capacity, my ability to forge a
14:32meaningful and happy life is to have a
14:35great job.
14:36And so, I'm just kind of here to tell
14:38them that, look, yeah, that matters,
14:40work matters, no doubt, education
14:42matters, obviously.
14:44Um money matters, too, you know, but
14:47there's just no question that for most
14:48Americans, for most men and women,
14:52nothing compares to a good marriage and
14:55a good family when it comes to living a
14:57meaningful life and being happy most of
15:00the time. And so, that's sort of the the
15:02key idea that I communicate here at the
15:04University of Virginia to my students in
15:06the classroom.
15:09>> That was walking around knowledge, I
15:11would say, when I came to UNC. And I've
15:14I should comment, I'm wearing my my UVA
15:16shirt here, but if any of my Carolina
15:19friends find out about this, my social
15:21media will light up will light up.
15:24I don't want to ask you about the
15:27history of marriage since Moses,
15:30but could you talk a little bit about
15:31the trends in marriage since World War
15:34II?
15:36>> So, we've seen in marriage, I I think
15:38really since World War II is a kind of
15:42uh
15:42sort of basically there've been sort of
15:45I would say three different phases we've
15:47kind of seen play out. You know, so in
15:50the immediate aftermath of World War II,
15:52obviously a big spike in marriage and
15:53fertility. That's when the baby boom
15:55takes place.
15:56And I think we kind of lined up
15:58culturally and politically and
16:00economically a range of different
16:02factors that supported kind of a much
16:05more familistic orientation to American
16:07life, including the way in which, you
16:10know, we the federal government got
16:11behind the the production of, you know,
16:13huge tracts of of housing,
16:16um the culture
16:18was [clears throat] very
16:19family-friendly. I mean religion was
16:20booming, for instance, would be one
16:21example of that.
16:23Um and then economically it was pretty
16:24easy to support a family on one salary.
16:27So, you know, marriage and family boomed
16:30in that era. And then in the '60s and
16:32'70s, there's kind of a turning away
16:34from marriage and family. There's kind
16:35of a me-first shift we see in the
16:37culture.
16:38Um a lot of working-class men begin to
16:41sort of lose their financial footing in
16:43the '70s,
16:45um which, you know, erodes kind of uh
16:48marriage and family life in America. And
16:50we kind of take a sort of a more secular
16:52turn as well, a more feminist turn as
16:55well, which kind of diminished sort of
16:56the the cultural uh power and value of
16:59marriage, too. And so, you know,
17:00marriage and fertility start to fall in
17:02the '70s, um particularly marriage, um
17:05and since the the early '70s and the
17:08present, we kind of see the marriage
17:09rate, for instance, decline by more than
17:1160%.
17:13But I think in really the last decade or
17:15so, we've kind of seen a leveling off of
17:18a lot of these family trends. I think
17:19we're kind of in a
17:21um
17:22a kind of a a new moment, and we're sort
17:25of trying to figure out where we're
17:27headed as a culture on the family front.
17:30And so, what I have seen, for instance,
17:32is
17:33you know, basically some good news and
17:35some bad news. Uh what's happening now
17:37is that marriage and family life are
17:39becoming much more selective
17:41for, you know, people who are more
17:43educated and more affluent, but also
17:44more religious and more conservative.
17:46And that means that for kids, the news
17:48in America is good. We're seeing an
17:50uptick in the share of kids who are
17:52being raised by their own married
17:54parents. Um we're seeing an uptick in
17:57the share of kids who are being raised
17:59in a married household more generally.
18:02At the same time, as marriage has become
18:04more selective, as fertility rate has
18:07fallen, we're also seeing as two more
18:08young adults today are heading into
18:09world where they're not going to get
18:11married, and they're not going to have
18:12kids. And that is worrisome to me.
18:16So, the good news basically is for kids.
18:19You know, they're more likely to enjoy a
18:20married mother and father um for the
18:22duration of their childhood.
18:24Um but the bad news is for adults who
18:26have um
18:27you know, much lower odds today of of
18:30enjoying the benefits of a marriage and
18:33a family as they move into midlife and
18:35later life today. So, and I think the
18:37question is sort of what's going to
18:38happen in the next two decades.
18:41And I
18:42my prediction is that I think family
18:44stability is going to continue to
18:46increase,
18:47but I'm just not sure if we're going to
18:49see a renaissance when it comes to
18:51adults in marriage and childbearing.
18:54That's the big question mark for me.
18:57>> Very interesting. I I could
19:00break that up into separate questions,
19:01but I'm going to get more directly into
19:03your book right now.
19:05Uh and ask you which cultural groups
19:09are best at marriage, because it does
19:11relate to worldview, to get back to Dr.
19:13Hunter, and the one of the surprising
19:16things that that I had read elsewhere
19:18here and there, but you really focused
19:20with the chapter. And that's why I love
19:21the book is
19:23your chapter focus was really
19:25well done, and I think you brought many
19:29groups of statistics together in each
19:31chapter. But, it's not it's not
19:33Christians that are
19:35necessarily best at marriage at all. You
19:38know, certain types are pretty good at
19:39it, but you
19:41you isolated the groups.
19:43>> Yeah, so what I talk about in the book
19:44is that there really, you know, four
19:46groups of Americans who are what I call,
19:48you know, masters of marriage. And those
19:50four groups are college-educated
19:53Americans who I call strivers in the
19:55book. They have kind of a focus on on
19:56education and
19:58professional success, kind of a
19:59longer-term orientation that kind of
20:01redounds to the benefit of their
20:02families and their marriages oftentimes.
20:04We have Asian-Americans
20:06who are more likely, the most likely
20:08actually be, you know, married, stably
20:10married Americans today, especially
20:11Indian-Americans really kind of top the
20:13charts. But, Asian-Americans is is one
20:15group.
20:16Religious Americans as well, Americans
20:18who are regular churchgoers are also
20:20more likely to be married in the first
20:22place, happily married, stably married
20:24as well.
20:25And I thought when I first started this
20:27work that would be it, those three
20:28groups, you know, the college-educated,
20:30the Asian-Americans, and the religious
20:32Americans. But, as we did the analyses,
20:35what we found with my colleague, Dr.
20:37Wendy Wang, is that conservative
20:40Americans were also a group today
20:42getting
20:43married in greater numbers and also
20:45being more happily married. And this was
20:47even controlling for religion, okay? So,
20:50there's something about being
20:51conservative in America today that's
20:52also kind of a a key factor
20:55above and beyond religion. I think
20:56that's because conservatives today
20:59generally, of course there are important
21:00exceptions, but generally are more
21:02likely to embrace marriage as
21:04institution and to articulate kind of
21:06the values and virtues
21:08that are required
21:11or that certainly help people when it
21:12comes to forging a good marriage and
21:15even prioritizing marriage in the first
21:17place in young adulthood. So, it's those
21:19four groups that I see today generally
21:22being more successful on the the family
21:25front.
21:27>> And I don't know, this is just an aside
21:29comment, but those that aren't in those
21:32groups
21:33are not as successful, but it's not it's
21:36not like they're terrible either. I
21:37mean, they're
21:38there's there's generally a 10 to 20%
21:41delta there.
21:42Um but if you had
21:43>> Yeah, but actually so let's it's
21:44important that I just understand. So,
21:46what I'm saying here is when you look at
21:48kind of the the data, what you see is
21:50that a majority of college-educated
21:53Americans are married. Only a minority,
21:56unfortunately, of less educated, you
21:58know, Americans are married. A majority
22:00of Asian Americans are married. You
22:02know, only a minority of, for instance,
22:04African Americans are married. A
22:06majority of religious Americans are
22:08married, um and only a minority of
22:10secular Americans are married. And then,
22:12a majority of conservative Americans are
22:14married and only a minority of of
22:16liberal Americans are married when it
22:17comes to sort of this 18 to 55, you
22:19know, prime age group. So, there are
22:21some clear differences by religion,
22:24race, ethnicity, and and ideology now
22:27that were not true, say, 60 years ago.
22:30There weren't big divides by religion or
22:33race or class, you know, 60 years ago in
22:37American life there are today.
22:41>> All right, let's um
22:43look at all these students going to
22:45classes. It's great. It's a fantastic
22:47We're We're in the amphitheater here.
22:49>> Yes.
22:49>> Um but, you know,
22:52my dad told me uh before I went off to
22:54boarding school. He said uh
22:57Doug, he took me to lunch to tell me
22:59this. Doug, keep God first,
23:02get married, and put her second.
23:05>> And you will have a happy life. Right.
23:07Okay. So,
23:09let's
23:10let me ask you the sort of the bottom
23:12line question. What are the benefits of
23:14marriage? If you're really considering
23:16it and you're on the fence, what what
23:18are the benefits?
23:20>> Yes, I think the benefits of marriage
23:22are both prosaic and profound.
23:26So, let's start with the prosaic
23:27benefits. I think there's just no
23:29question that married Americans today
23:31are more likely to be kind of
23:32flourishing when it comes to money and
23:34health.
23:35>> [snorts]
23:35>> Especially on the latter point, men,
23:37right? And so, there's just, you know,
23:39there's just no question that being able
23:40to kind of, you know, share your
23:42expenses,
23:43you know, oftentimes today sharing
23:45income, you know, just puts married
23:47Americans in a much better financial
23:49bracket than their unmarried, especially
23:52their single peers. And that's even
23:54controlling for things like education
23:55and race. There's just no question that,
23:57you know, so for instance, we see that
23:58women who are married about 80% less
24:00likely to be poor. And that for both men
24:02and women as they kind of hit their 50s,
24:04getting closer to retirement, have about
24:0610 times the assets if they're stably
24:08married compared to their peers who are
24:10never married or their peers who are
24:12divorced. So,
24:13>> Let me stop you right there. We thought
24:15we were poor the whole time, and
24:17suddenly we're not. But go ahead.
24:19>> So, there's just a there's just a way in
24:20which marriage just kind of like tends
24:22to reinforce a lot of habits and
24:25practices that reinforce, you know,
24:27financial stability for ordinary
24:28Americans.
24:30Health-wise, you know, one
24:32you know, scientist that I know
24:34estimates that guys who are married, you
24:36know, stably live about 9 years longer
24:38than their their guy peers who are not
24:41married. So, women also do better, too,
24:43but they're, you know, health-wise, but
24:45not quite as much as the men because us
24:46men we're more, you know, we're
24:47knuckleheads oftentimes. And so, once we
24:49get married and have like both the
24:51responsibilities of marriage and the
24:53advice and counsel of our wives, we're
24:54more likely to to flourish. But also, we
24:56see too when it comes to like cancer for
24:58instance, that people who are married
25:00just way better outcomes because they
25:02have a support, they have an advocate.
25:04My father-in-law, when he had cancer for
25:06instance, at the UVA hospital, my
25:08mother-in-law was there every day
25:10talking to the nurses and doctors,
25:12making sure he was receiving the best
25:14possible care that he could possibly
25:16get. And I'm convinced he only got
25:18through his cancer kind of scare,
25:21which was pretty bad, because she was in
25:23there every day kind of buttonholing
25:25doctors, talking to nurses, just making
25:28sure that they were doing everything in
25:29the best possible way. So, again, when
25:31it comes to sort of money and health,
25:33pretty important concerns I'd say for
25:34most of us, especially as we get a bit
25:36older, it really helps to have a spouse
25:38at your side, no question. But I think,
25:41you know, obviously there's more to life
25:43than money.
25:44Um and meaning and happiness, especially
25:46in this moment we're living in, where I
25:47think a lot of Americans are struggling
25:49on the meaning front and the happiness
25:51front. Um there's just no question that
25:53married Americans are more likely to
25:56live meaningful and happy lives. Um in
25:58fact, what we're seeing is a growing
26:00divide when it comes to happiness for
26:01instance, where, you know, married
26:04Americans are kind of retaining their
26:06happiness levels across time in in in
26:08our life at our common life today. And
26:10unfortunately, unmarried Americans are
26:12seeing their happiness levels
26:14really fall.
26:16Um and that's I think just because, you
26:18know, when you're living with and for
26:20someone else, and often with with and
26:22for children,
26:23your life is just incredibly meaningful,
26:25it's incredibly rich. Um you come home
26:28every day, you talk to your kids, you
26:29talk to your spouse.
26:31You know, um you're you're also kind of
26:33serving them, giving of yourself to
26:36them.
26:37And, you know, Aristotle said we're
26:38social animals. We're just kind of like
26:40built, I think, to be with and for
26:42others.
26:43And for folks who don't have that
26:45advantage, particularly today when we're
26:46often spending too much time
26:49with devices in this new digital age, I
26:53think that's why having a spouse and
26:54also really having kids ends up being
26:57more valuable to us today because they
26:59keep us living in the real world with
27:02and for others. Again, unfortunately, a
27:04lot of people a lot of adults today who
27:06don't have the benefit of a spouse and
27:07kids, I think end up spending way too
27:10much time devoting way too much
27:12attention
27:14to the virtual world and that world just
27:16is not as life-giving as the real world
27:19and that's where I think our families
27:20help keep us crowded. So, that's quickly
27:22why I think
27:23being married but also actually having a
27:24family ends up being not just viable
27:26today
27:27but Doug, more viable today than
27:29probably ever, you know, really ever
27:31before.
27:32>> [snorts]
27:33>> Well, it's probably not something people
27:35my age thought about when I was a kid
27:36but I can tell you
27:38people my age do think about that now
27:40and it's hard to keep your positive
27:42attitude the older you get.
27:44And when I look around and I have I have
27:46eight grandchildren now and so my wife
27:49and I are sitting there thinking when we
27:51see young people get married, get
27:53married cuz every decade that passes is
27:55a decade lost on the back end of what
27:58your life can be and it's glorious when
28:01when you get there.
28:03Okay, let's focus on the negative.
28:05Who have you you mentioned a trend
28:08uh since since the 60s, probably the 70s
28:12starting out right that has been
28:14negative toward marriage. Who are the
28:17victims of this decline?
28:20>> You write a lot about that in Get
28:22Married and this is serious business.
28:25>> Yeah, so I think kind of what I call
28:27kind of a the closing of the American
28:29heart when it comes to marriage and
28:32family life, [snorts] um
28:34which has been playing out in different
28:35ways really since the late 1960s, really
28:38kind of got accelerated in the 1970s,
28:41got going in a big way 1970s.
28:44Um
28:46and I would sort of talk about three
28:47groups who have been paying a price. Um
28:51so I would say really in the '60s and
28:54'70s, uh poor, working-class, and
28:57African-American
28:58um adults and kids kind of paid the
29:02biggest price for kind of the shift away
29:04from marriage and family, kind of the
29:05rise
29:07of uh the counterculture.
29:09Um and but I would say, you know, really
29:13in more recent years there's also a way
29:16in which I think liberal Americans, I
29:18think unwillingly, are also kind of
29:20paying a price because they're also
29:21seeing now their their numbers when it
29:24comes to marriage and childbearing
29:26really
29:27come [clears throat] down as well. So I
29:29think, you know, those groups have paid
29:32the biggest price for our
29:34country's move away from marriage and
29:36family and are paying the biggest price
29:38now today. Um
29:41it's important though just to note that
29:43we are seeing, you know, some good news.
29:46Particularly for African-Americans,
29:47we're seeing an uptick now in the share
29:49of black children who are being raised
29:51in a married family. So it's also kind
29:53of important to note that, you know,
29:54history doesn't move in a linear
29:56direction, Doug. And we can, I think,
29:58see, you know, times and situations when
30:02some of these trends move in a in a
30:03better direction.
30:05>> You have a group of chapters early on in
30:07there that I thought uh you know, when
30:10when when you something's bugging you
30:12and you can't put your finger exactly on
30:14what's bugging you.
30:15>> Yes.
30:16>> And then all of a sudden you see it in
30:17print, you go, "Whoa, that is so true."
30:20You talk You have three chapters in
30:22there about the three myths about
30:24marriage. It relates to how to be happy
30:27>> Yeah.
30:27>> by being married. But what are those
30:29three myths?
30:30>> So those three myths are the what I call
30:32the flying solo myth, the soulmate myth,
30:35and the family diversity myth. Um and
30:38the the two first myths relate to adults
30:40and the last myth relates to children.
30:43So, the flying solo myth basically is
30:45this sort of this notion that kind of
30:46living the unencumbered life,
30:49you know, um being free of the
30:50encumbrances of marriage and family is
30:53really the way to forge a
30:55a meaningful and happy life. Um often is
30:57kind of focused, especially on the left,
30:59towards women. Um and now focused to
31:01some extent on parts of the right, I'm
31:03thinking of Andrew Tate, you know, on
31:04men, kind of basically telling, you
31:07know, young women today, on the left,
31:08young men today, on the right, that the
31:10path to living the best possible life is
31:13one that steers clear of marriage and
31:15family, and not towards marriage and
31:17family.
31:18Um there is actually a classic piece,
31:21you know, in the New York Times, for
31:22instance, I think it was in 2020,
31:24um by a writer in Brooklyn, they're
31:25always from Brooklyn, I don't know what
31:26it is in Brooklyn, but and she said that
31:29sort of married heterosexual, you know,
31:31motherhood in America is a game that no
31:33one wins, right? So, she's kind of
31:35arguing in the New York Times that women
31:37who are married moms
31:39are
31:40basically much more likely to be
31:42miserable, um than their single and
31:44childless peers. Um and then, of course,
31:46Andrew Tate comes along about the same
31:48time and is kind of telling young men
31:50from a kind of more right-wing
31:51perspective that, you know, marriage is
31:54a dead end, and that guys should steer
31:56clear of marriage and focus on kind of
31:58getting strong, making money, and using
32:02but not marrying the opposite sex. Um
32:05and so, kind of the takeaway, I think,
32:06for both of these, you know, groups of
32:08people is, you know, that um marriage is
32:12um not the path, family life is not the
32:15path. Um and yet, what we see in the
32:17data is that
32:19today both men and women who embrace
32:22marriage and embrace kids, have kids,
32:25you know, whatnot, are the ones most
32:27likely to be flourishing.
32:29You also asked too about the role of the
32:31soulmate myth. Um and the soulmate myth
32:33is this idea that kind of love and
32:36marriage are about kind of experiencing
32:38kind of passion
32:40and sort of seeing
32:42it all through just the the the prism of
32:45romance.
32:47And not kind of having an appreciation
32:48that marriage is about more than
32:50romance. Certainly romance matters, but
32:51it's about two, you know, money. It's
32:54about kin. Especially it's about kind of
32:56creating a a world where you can raise
32:58kids successfully together as a couple.
33:00And so for Americans who embrace this
33:02all this sort of the soulmate myth, they
33:04think it's just all about this intense
33:06emotional romantic connection between
33:08them and and their partner. And they're
33:11just much more vulnerable not just to
33:12kind of getting a divorce when the kind
33:14of butterflies fly away in their
33:16relationship,
33:17but what they're also vulnerable to and
33:18don't appreciate is not experiencing all
33:21the different goods of marriage. And so
33:23what I saw in a study that I did in
33:24California for instance is that couples
33:27who were embracing what I call a family
33:29first model of marriage that understands
33:31that marriage is more than just that
33:32sort of intense romantic connection were
33:35actually more likely to be happily
33:36married than folks who had kind of a
33:38more narrow soulmatey kind of approach
33:41because I think they were much more
33:42vulnerable to the ebb and flow of those
33:45intense romantic feelings, which do ebb
33:48and and flow in any ordinary marriage.
33:50And by contrast the folks who had kind
33:52of a a thicker, richer view of marriage
33:54were more likely to appreciate that,
33:56you know, you're doing a a lot as a
33:58couple. You're building a strong
34:00financial foundation. You are raising
34:02kids, you know, for a good and virtuous
34:05life. And you're also enjoying the
34:07benefits of cultivating emotional
34:10intimacy. And they were the ones who
34:12generally were happy in their marriages
34:13because I think they had more,
34:15you know, goods that they could could
34:17pay attention to in their marriages.
34:20Also, when it comes to the family
34:21diversity myth, what we see in the
34:23academy here where I I work and in sort
34:26of the mainstream media, there's this
34:27kind of idea that family structure
34:30doesn't really matter for kids. What
34:31matters for kids is a loving home and
34:35lots of money.
34:36And yet what we see in the research is
34:39that kids are more likely to flourish
34:42when they have the benefit of stable
34:43married parents who on average are more
34:47likely to give them more love you know,
34:50over the course of their lives in a sort
34:52of stable way, right? And also they're
34:55better able to financially support them,
34:56too, because they are stably married and
34:59they're not incurring all the costs that
35:00come with either raising kids on your
35:03own as a single parent or navigating the
35:04challenges financially of moving in and
35:07out of one relationship and one
35:09household after another, right? And so
35:13the story here is that
35:15people who are forging stable married
35:17families are better able to raise kids
35:20who are flourishing today in America
35:23than single parents, um, adoptive
35:26parents, step-parents
35:28um, or or foster families or
35:31grandparents. And and let me be clear, I
35:33was raised by a single mom and I think
35:35that, you know
35:37kids can do well in a variety of family
35:39forms, you know, but I'm just saying I'm
35:41also a sociologist and I can tell you
35:42that the research is just very clear
35:44that on average kids are more likely to
35:47flourish when they have the benefit of
35:49stably married parents. And that's why
35:51the family diversity myth is, uh, is off
35:54the mark.
35:56>> Yeah, it's very clear to me why that is,
35:58but I'm not going to tell you why
35:59because I'm interviewing you.
36:03I'm going to take the bullets on this
36:05one, okay?
36:06Um
36:08I'm going to read
36:10a
36:11sort of phenomenon, a list of phenomenon
36:14that has caused the the decline in
36:15marriage and you comment on these but
36:17not in this direct of a way.
36:20And I'm going to I'm going to even label
36:21where they're coming from. The left
36:24the welfare state, the extreme welfare
36:26state well beyond what we ever thought
36:29it would be.
36:30Feminism,
36:31and there's a certain type of feminism.
36:34I don't view it as one thing.
36:36That's number two. Number three is
36:38wokeness,
36:40uh which I would say relates to post-
36:42postmodernism and to cultural Marxism,
36:46secularization,
36:48uh over secularization,
36:50and the decline of religion. And there's
36:53a debate about what causes that, whether
36:55the family or religion.
36:56>> Right.
36:57>> One of the things I really liked is you
36:59hit on both sides in your book. You
37:01don't pick on one side necessarily
37:03versus the other. On the right, it's a
37:05market mentality
37:07toward everything. And that's I that
37:11that's that really should be broken down
37:13into a number of categories as well.
37:15>> Right.
37:16>> Any comments on that that list? What is
37:18that?
37:19>> Yeah, so I mean I I think um the the
37:22bottom line, right, is that, you know,
37:24marriage and family in American culture
37:25are much weaker today in some important
37:27ways than they were 60 years ago. Uh
37:30we're not going to go back to 1955,
37:31obviously. Um and we did not go back to
37:34to 1955.
37:36Um but we have to understand and
37:38appreciate that, again, most of us, our
37:41kids and us men and women are more
37:42likely to flourish when we have the
37:44benefit of a marriage and the benefit of
37:47a family. And so, um what is it that's
37:50happened over the last 60 years that's
37:52made it much more difficult for many
37:54Americans
37:55um
37:56to have the benefit of, you know, a
37:59spouse and a family. And I would say on
38:01the cultural side, I would certainly
38:03finger kind of
38:04the me-first decade of the 1970s as a as
38:07a big part of this story here, the way
38:09in which we kind of turned away from
38:11focusing on family to focusing on what
38:13makes me happy, what makes me fulfilled,
38:16not recognizing that if you begin to
38:18kind of move in that direction, you're
38:20much more likely uh
38:23to end up in a in a dark um and self
38:27selfish place, basically. Uh and to sort
38:29of hurt your family.
38:31Um when it comes to the cultural side
38:33too, I think that secularization was
38:35certainly a a big part of the story. The
38:36fact that fewer Americans
38:38were both involved in a church community
38:42and were kind of giving, you know, some
38:44major
38:45um
38:47kind of authority to religious teachings
38:49and kind of governing and guiding their
38:50life. I think that's that's a big part
38:52of the story. I think feminism was was
38:54problematic insofar as it tended to kind
38:57of
38:58both inflate women's expectations about
39:01what marriage could deliver in ways that
39:03were often unrealistic.
39:05And I think also kind of tended to
39:07devalue the important role that guys,
39:09you know, can and should play in the
39:10family. Uh of course there were good
39:12things about feminism in terms of
39:13especially I think making it clear that
39:15domestic violence was unacceptable. That
39:17was I think one of feminism's, you know,
39:19big contributions. And also coming to
39:21appreciate the role that women can play
39:23in the professional arena. But
39:25um so, you know, kind of a mixed bag on
39:27the feminist uh front. So, those are
39:28some of the cultural factors I think at
39:30play. On the welfare state, I would say
39:32basically that
39:35the biggest problem there is that it
39:36often made again men superfluous. Kind
39:39of men's unique contribution, you know,
39:42as a father and as a you know, as a
39:45breadwinner was kind of basically often
39:48eliminated for many poor and
39:50working-class, you know, communities,
39:52couples, and families. And that was I
39:54think a was was a big problem um in the
39:56'60s and '70s, even kind of going
39:58forward, that's still a problem.
40:00Um and then for the right, I think yeah,
40:02just this idea that kind of the market
40:05is an unvarnished good, you know, that
40:07whatever it makes the economy grow,
40:09whatever makes, you know, um corporate
40:11America, you know, do better um is good
40:15for, you know, the family. You know, the
40:17whole idea that sort of if General
40:19Motors is is is doing well, then then
40:21the American, you know,
40:23um community is doing well. And clearly
40:25there are things happening and that have
40:27that have happened in the sort of market
40:29world um that haven't been good for the
40:31family. Kind of the eroding place of
40:34many men in in our economy today would
40:35be would be one example. We're seeing a
40:38growing share of guys, especially guys
40:40who are not college educated, being kind
40:42of eliminated, marginalized from the
40:44economy. And that's just terrible for
40:46them. It's terrible for their
40:47relationships and for their families. No
40:49question about that. I think the other
40:50thing too we're seeing in the new
40:52economy is that a lot of the companies
40:55that are thriving in the information
40:57economy, in the sort of digital economy,
40:59if you will, are selling products um
41:02that are completely destructive for
41:05marriages and kids. Uh we can think
41:08about ways in which, you know, Microsoft
41:11um is, you know, pushing,
41:13you know, products that that put too
41:15many of our teenage boys um on gaming
41:18platforms in ways that are completely
41:20destructive for them and their for their
41:21futures.
41:22Uh we can think of ways in which Meta
41:24and its, you know, its Instagram, you
41:27know, product um
41:28has done
41:30terrible harm to the emotional
41:32well-being of our teenage girls. And we
41:34can see how um you know, these new AI
41:37companions are going to really gut the
41:41capacity of ordinary women and men to
41:43develop the sort of the skills and the
41:46orientation towards cultivating real
41:49physical and emotional intimacy
41:52um with, you know, the opposite sex too.
41:54So,
41:55the market is not
41:57always um you know, obviously a an
42:00institution that has the best interests
42:03of the family at heart. We need to be
42:04aware of that and much more attentive to
42:06that. And there are certain elements on
42:07the right that don't appreciate that the
42:09market can play a negative role in in
42:11the family. So,
42:12uh we have to appreciate again how these
42:13different factors have combined really
42:15almost in a kind of perfect storm to
42:18undercut the strength of marriage and
42:20family, especially I would say in the
42:22'60s and '70s, but even kind of in our
42:24current moment as well.
42:27>> Well, the institutionalization, let's
42:29let's talk about the market, but I I
42:31really want to go to feminism for a
42:32second, but just a comment on that.
42:35Pornography, for example, is
42:37so profitable. It is so prevalent on the
42:40internet. I've heard as much as a third.
42:43I maintain there wouldn't be any
42:44pornography if it wasn't for men.
42:47And uh they can be on the left or the
42:49right or the middle, it doesn't matter,
42:51but uh that's the perfect storm you're
42:53talking about where technology comes
42:55along and
42:55>> one example of and it's just going to
42:57get, you know, I mean, with with AI,
42:59it's going to get even more
43:01um sort of distracting and more um
43:05more degrading as well. And in ways
43:08I I I'm not even saying this, you know,
43:10I mean, I am a practicing Catholic and,
43:12you know, I could sort of talk about
43:14this in moral terms, but I'm just sort
43:15of saying like I sit, you know, in my
43:17office on a regular basis talking to
43:19students about the role that pornography
43:20is playing in their relationships, and
43:23they are deeply concerned about how it's
43:25playing out in their lives.
43:27Generally, female students talk about
43:28how it's playing out in the lives of
43:29their of their male boyfriends. So, this
43:31is kind of like, you know, I can see
43:33this sort of issue of pornography
43:35um exacting a kind of devastating toll.
43:38Um it really kind of makes
43:40especially the female students that I
43:42that I speak to wonder about their
43:44physical worth. It makes them worry
43:46about kind of
43:48how their boyfriend, you know, or the
43:50future husband is going to be handling
43:52the sort of the dis-
43:53the distracting and and degrading often
43:56character of this issue. Um
43:58And it just sort of um
44:00it it creates some real fundamental
44:03frictions um in young adult
44:05relationships that are just part and
44:07parcel of the kind of struggles that
44:08we're seeing in adults
44:10wrestle with in American life today. So
44:12certainly pornography is one problem.
44:14>> What I'd like to do is uh
44:17focus a little bit now on feminism just
44:19for a second
44:20and because I think the the issue is
44:23really raised its head in different ways
44:25that haven't been it's different than in
44:27the past. Um
44:30So if we broke feminism down into four
44:32stages that are kind of generally
44:34accepted the suffragettes, the the equal
44:37opportunity at work and outside of work,
44:39and stage three might be
44:42women should enjoy more sex or or women
44:45should be more like men or men should be
44:47more like women or
44:49uh generally move to the to the feminine
44:52side and the third stage would be well
44:55once we've moved everybody into the
44:57middle, let's just eliminate gender
44:58altogether and and and have no such
45:01thing as sex.
45:05>> You know, I personally am definitely for
45:06stage one and two and uh I think that's
45:09part of the Judeo-Christian way. Um
45:13or what what are your comments on that?
45:15Are women starting to see that in the in
45:18the rearview mirror and it's clearer now
45:20or versus
45:21some unknown future which was kind of
45:23the maybe the late '60s, early '70s
45:26where they they didn't need to make some
45:27gains. What's going on there? What do
45:29you see?
45:30>> I I I think the biggest issue that I
45:31would say with kind of feminism um or
45:33just sort of more broadly kind of a
45:35culturally progressive orientation today
45:38is
45:39um
45:41I I think there are two challenges
45:44facing
45:45um
45:46us in that in that way. So one is that
45:49that I think that
45:50um there is not an adequate appreciation
45:53among many progressive um
45:56feminists for the role that marriage
45:59plays in securing a good life for women.
46:03Right? And so there are plenty of of
46:06scholars and there are plenty of of
46:08mainstream journalists with prominent
46:09platforms who would kind of
46:11either kind of um
46:13diminish, discount, or devalue the
46:15importance of marriage in women's lives
46:18um and would kind of argue that marriage
46:20is an obstacle to women flourishing. So,
46:21I think that's
46:22one problem that I see playing out um on
46:25you know many different fronts um
46:28from people who are coming at this issue
46:30from a a broadly feminist perspective.
46:33I think the second thing is there's not
46:34a kind of an adequate appreciation
46:36of um
46:39the reality of sexual difference, the
46:41way in which um there are on average
46:45important differences between how women
46:47and men experience the world, um how
46:50biology affects their experience of
46:54um love and uh marriage and family life
46:59and the world more generally. And so, it
47:01just kind of uh makes it difficult for
47:03them to understand and appreciate you
47:06know the difference is real um on
47:08average. Of course, there are exceptions
47:09you know with all these you know um
47:10patterns that we see for women and men.
47:12Um but it just kind of makes life more
47:14difficult um
47:16you know um when we can't appreciate
47:18that there are you know some differences
47:21that do have a bearing on how we
47:23approach things like romance, sex,
47:27marriage, uh and family life. Um and if
47:30you are kind of trying to paper over or
47:32ignore those differences,
47:35you're actually more likely to get into
47:36trouble um
47:38in your own world, in your own
47:41relationship, in your own family. So,
47:42like one example of what this looks like
47:44is that when my wife and I were first
47:47you know married, um
47:48we didn't really fully appreciate that
47:50often times when
47:53women and men are facing some kind of
47:55major challenge or conflict,
47:58the
47:59um
48:00the guy is more inclined to try to
48:02figure it out, work through it, solve
48:04it, often on his own terms.
48:06And the woman is much more likely to
48:08want to sort of talk through it and kind
48:09of
48:11be given kind of like
48:13um some sense of um
48:16basically comfort, you know, and and
48:18some sense of understanding. Um and so
48:21what we would
48:22you know, I would be basically offering
48:23solutions to my wife's, you know,
48:25challenges and problems. Well, you do
48:27this or do that or this is what you
48:28should do. And she didn't want any of
48:29that. She wanted me to just be an
48:30empathetic listener and to kind of like
48:33just help her kind of like process the
48:36challenges she was working through. And
48:39by contrast, when I was like facing some
48:41major challenge or difficulty, I often
48:43wanted to be just left alone to kind of
48:45like go into my corner, basically think
48:47the issue through, figure it out, and
48:50then come back at the world. And she
48:51wanted to kind of talk it through with
48:53me and help me kind of, you know, um
48:55emotionally engage the challenge of the
48:57issue. And I wanted none of that. And so
48:59we had like we had a lot of struggles
49:01early on in our marriage because we had
49:04sort of classically masculine and
49:05feminine ways of dealing with, you know,
49:07these issues, but we had no kind of
49:10vocabulary and no, you know, real way of
49:12understanding that we were approaching
49:14it, you know, in somewhat different
49:16fashions as men and women often do.
49:19So this is I think where people who
49:21don't understand and appreciate that
49:22there are some differences typically
49:24between men and women are more likely to
49:26run into trouble.
49:27And I think we would all be on kind of a
49:29a better
49:31uh
49:32we would be kind of handling these
49:33issues, you know, with greater success,
49:37um greater comedy,
49:39if we could re- rediscover and
49:41understand again um in this current
49:43moment that, you know, there are some
49:44differences between men and on average
49:46and
49:47kind of appreciating those differences,
49:50celebrating them, handling them with a
49:52measure of humor,
49:54um helps us all to kind of navigate,
49:56among other things, marriage and family
49:58life in America.
50:00>> You
50:01You were probably in college when that
50:03book Maybe it's even older than than
50:06your college years, Men Are from Mars
50:08and Women Are from Venus.
50:09>> Mhm.
50:10>> Everyone that read that, I don't care
50:12whether they're on the left, right, in
50:13the center, just read it and went,
50:15"Yeah, that's true."
50:17Now, you can't even look at that book
50:19without thinking it's sexist.
50:21So, let's let's get to the the success
50:24factors again. Okay, we're going to
50:26revisit some material you've you've
50:29talked about, but you talk about a
50:31success sequence
50:33in your book in several different ways.
50:36What is the success sequence to
50:38marriage?
50:40>> So, there are there are many voices now,
50:43Doug, on the left and the right,
50:44actually, who are kind of calling into
50:46question the the reality of the American
50:49dream today for ordinary [snorts] young
50:51adults.
50:52Um and I actually think when it comes to
50:55housing, that's a real that's a real
50:58issue. I think we we have failed, we are
50:59failing
51:01our young adults when it comes to kind
51:02of figuring out how to build and sell um
51:07particularly single-family homes that
51:09are within reach of ordinary working and
51:11middle-class families. So, that is
51:13That's one way in which I say one way in
51:14which we've got to do better as a
51:16country. Um and there we've got to do
51:18better, too, in in particular regions of
51:20this country on that score. But, what I
51:22think people don't appreciate is that
51:23there is basically a pathway
51:26to living the American dream in many
51:28respects, to kind of avoiding poverty
51:30and kind of reaching the middle class,
51:32and that pathway runs through education,
51:34work, and marriage. And the success
51:36sequence is this idea that if you get at
51:38least a high school degree,
51:40um and if you work full-time in your
51:4220s, and get married before having any
51:44children, so if you combine education,
51:46work, and marriage in those ways, you
51:49know, your odds of being poor are just
51:513%
51:52in kind of your late 20s and 30s, and
51:55your odds of reaching the middle class
51:56or higher are 86%.
51:59And then also, too, it's important to
52:01note that young adults who are following
52:03this sequence are much happier, and
52:06they're much less likely to be
52:08emotionally distressed than their peers
52:10who are not following the sequence.
52:13And finally, they're more likely to be
52:14forging stable marriages and families.
52:17Folks who are getting married before
52:18having kids, you know, are just
52:20way more likely in their 30s to be
52:23stably married. So,
52:25the point here is there's a kind of a
52:26pathway
52:28to kind of
52:29living out the American dream that we
52:32need to kind of tell young adults, tell
52:34teenagers,
52:36um tell 20-somethings that they can kind
52:37of follow this pathway, and at the end
52:40of it sort of expect to live out certain
52:44kind of classic dimensions of the
52:46American
52:47American dream. And so, what certainly
52:50we're doing at the Institute for Family
52:51Studies is trying to help
52:53communicate this
52:55um across the country, and we've been
52:57working in
52:59Alabama and Texas and Ohio and Utah to
53:03kind of help lawmakers and educators
53:06understand and appreciate the success
53:08sequence, and we're now getting, you
53:10know, people also to kind of move on
53:12their own steam
53:13to pass laws in those states and to um
53:18you know, get the success sequence
53:19rolling out in in classrooms across
53:21those states as well. It looks like now
53:23in some places we're waiting on
53:25legislation to to pass, but there's
53:26certainly kind of a movement building um
53:29in many states to kind of get the
53:30sequence communicated to the broader
53:32public.
53:34>> I'm going to skip Tony Bennett's five
53:37five keys to success, but I want to give
53:39him a plug, too.
53:41Obviously, the key to teamwork is also
53:44the key to family. It won the national
53:46championship for us I believe in 2019
53:50I think [music] Carolina was 2017 so but
53:54that was one of the most exciting
53:55exciting final fours of all time. Right.
53:58But get the book for to get those five.
54:01Let's focus in on your five C's. Right.
54:05Another sort of memory device that
54:07capsulizes right how to be successful.
54:10>> So you know in the book I talk about the
54:12way in which there are masters of
54:13marriage and I actually begin in that
54:16conversation by talking about the work
54:17of John Gottman who's a psychologist at
54:19the University of Washington. And John
54:21Gottman has some great advice about how
54:24you can do things in your marriage like
54:26having kind of five positive
54:28interactions versus one negative
54:29interaction. He's got some advice about
54:31how to handle you know conflict you know
54:33in a marriage in a very constructive way
54:35that I think is super helpful for
54:37couples to understand and appreciate.
54:39But he's kind of focusing on the
54:40microdynamic between a couple in a
54:42marriage. And what I'm doing as a
54:43sociologist is talking about sort of the
54:45the broader context the macro context
54:48within which couples today
54:51Doug are more or less likely to
54:54flourish. And so I'm saying that what we
54:56see for the masters of marriage for
54:59strivers college educated Americans for
55:02religious Americans for Asian Americans
55:04for conservative Americans is they're
55:05often likely to embrace five C's
55:08that help them build out strong stable
55:11marriages. And those five C's are
55:13communion children commitment cash and
55:17community. So when it comes to community
55:19for instance I talk about the importance
55:21of doing a we before me approach to
55:23marriage. That's a good way to forge
55:25communion you know in marriage. And one
55:28example is the sort of role of money
55:30basically. What we see is that couples
55:32who have basically
55:34shared pools of money um, share their
55:37assets, share their checking accounts,
55:39are way more likely to flourish compared
55:41to couples who have separate accounts,
55:43you know, large separate accounts where
55:45they're kind of not really
55:46combining their money. Which is kind of
55:48one example of the way in which kind of
55:49forging a sense of communion in marriage
55:52is
55:53an important way of kind of building out
55:55a team-based approach to marriage that
55:57redounds to the benefit of the couple.
56:00For instance, one new study from Indiana
56:02found that when couples were randomly
56:03assigned to share bank accounts,
56:06separate bank accounts, and to do as
56:07they please with their bank accounts,
56:09the couples who were assigned to the
56:10shared accounts did way better in their
56:13marriages in the first 2 years of
56:15married life.
56:16So, this is powerful evidence. Randomly
56:18assigning couples to these different
56:19models that forging this we before me
56:21approach to marriage is the path. So,
56:24that's the communion point. The kids
56:26point is that a lot of voices today are
56:28telling us that kids are an obstacle
56:30to having a good marriage, a happy life.
56:33Um,
56:34you know, you see this on TikTok, you
56:35see this in There's like Time cover
56:37stories celebrating kind of the
56:38childless life, for instance.
56:40What they don't tell you is that, yes,
56:42when you first have kids,
56:44it is a huge challenge for your
56:46marriage. You're losing sleep, you're
56:49stressed out, you're rearranging kind of
56:51the priorities and the way your dynamics
56:53work out as a couple. So, yes, we do see
56:55a dip in marital happiness when kids
56:57come along. But, as you kind of like
56:59write yourself, figure out this new
57:01challenge, and embrace the
57:03responsibilities of parenthood, what we
57:05are now seeing, Doug, is that parents in
57:08America, especially married parents in
57:10America, are markedly more likely to be
57:13happy with their lives compared to their
57:15childless peers, especially their single
57:16childless peers. So, the second point
57:18about kids is just to understand and
57:19appreciate that actually kids are a
57:21pathway towards forging a meaningful and
57:23happy marriage and life. And especially
57:25we're seeing, too, that couples who are
57:27doing both fun things with their kids,
57:30um, and even more so hard things with
57:32their kids are more happily married. And
57:35so what I mean by that is like, yes,
57:36going to a UVA basketball game over
57:38there with my kids
57:40is a blast. And it's it's linked to in
57:43general being more happily married.
57:45But doing the hard work of chores on
57:48Saturday morning in the Wilcox
57:49household, which always elicits lots of
57:51eye rolls from my kids, um, is an even
57:54more powerful predictor of a happy a
57:58good marriage. I think it's There's just
58:00something about productive work in the
58:01household um, that we often don't
58:04appreciate today. Uh, but still is very
58:06much associated with uh, a good
58:08marriage.
58:08>> me stop you on two.
58:10I'll just say from my own personal
58:12experience what what kids do
58:14particularly under say five.
58:16>> Yeah.
58:16>> Is when if you
58:19then everyone worked outside the home,
58:20but when you come home
58:23you realize that what you're dealing
58:24with outside work is not important.
58:27>> Right. Yes.
58:28>> Because of your kids.
58:29>> Yes.
58:31>> Do you ever have that feeling? They they
58:33they bring you into their world and and
58:35you
58:35>> Right.
58:36>> you realize, wow.
58:38>> Yeah. That's
58:38>> This is important.
58:40>> Yeah, that's true. I mean, I think kids
58:41ground and guide our lives in really
58:42profound important ways and you
58:44recognize that
58:45um, there there are things that are way
58:47more important than what's happening at
58:48work and there are things that are way
58:49more important than what's happening in
58:50Washington D.C., you know, for instance,
58:53or even, you know, um,
58:55you know, in your um, in your friendship
58:57world, too, when when it comes to your
58:58kids.
58:59Um, so yeah, 100% you know.
59:01>> Keep keep going with number two.
59:03>> yeah, so that's that's the kid you know,
59:04that's the that's the kid that that when
59:06it comes to
59:06>> important to me. Number two, I think
59:08it's just
59:09>> to commitment, um,
59:10you know, there are plenty of voices
59:11today um, that are kind of discouraging
59:14us from embracing um, different kinds of
59:16commitment like this idea that marriage
59:18is for life till death do us part and
59:20that's been happening really since the
59:21late 60s and 70s that there have been
59:23lots of voices in the culture that are
59:25telling us that, you know, marriage is
59:26not for life. You shouldn't embrace that
59:28ideal. Um
59:29And even now more we're getting people
59:31kind of with this whole thing on
59:32polyamory kind of telling us that, you
59:34know, sexual fidelity is not something
59:36that you should be striving for.
59:38But what I saw in my research is that
59:40couples who embrace the norm of lifelong
59:43marriage and couples who embrace the
59:45norm of sexual fidelity are way more
59:47likely to be thriving because they, you
59:49know, they're committed to one another.
59:51They they're making the effort, you
59:53know, when things get hard to work
59:55through that frustration, that anger,
59:58that challenge, that disappointment that
1:00:01you have with your spouse or with your
1:00:02marriage. Um but by working through
1:00:04these difficulties and challenges, they
1:00:06come out you usually
1:00:09on the other side with a greater sense
1:00:11of
1:00:12having built a meaningful and and
1:00:14generally happy marriage. Um so there's
1:00:17just no question that couples who
1:00:18embrace commitment rather than kind of
1:00:19fly away from it on a variety of
1:00:21different levels are more likely to be
1:00:23both happily married and stably married.
1:00:25When it comes to cash, we see is that
1:00:27couples who have a decent income stream
1:00:30and shared assets
1:00:32are are better off. Um one shared asset
1:00:34obviously for most folks today is a is a
1:00:36home.
1:00:37Um and so working to kind of build a
1:00:39financial foundation that you're working
1:00:41out together is a good thing for
1:00:42couples.
1:00:43We also see though that and this is kind
1:00:45of the more provocative point
1:00:47it's especially his work
1:00:49his full-time work that's linked to
1:00:52a happier marriage when they've got kids
1:00:53in the household and to a more stable
1:00:56marriage as well. There's a recent study
1:00:58from a colleague at Harvard
1:01:01Sasha Killewald and she found that
1:01:03basically when the wife is not employed
1:01:06or when the wife is unemployed
1:01:08no effect
1:01:10on her likelihood of divorce.
1:01:12But when the husband is losing his job
1:01:15or he's not employed, you know, um
1:01:17way more likely to get divorced. 33%
1:01:20more likely to get divorced. So it just
1:01:21kind of reminds us that even in the 21st
1:01:23century, there's just something about a
1:01:25husband having, you know, typically, and
1:01:28of course there are exceptions, but
1:01:29typically, having a decent job that
1:01:33gives his family a measure of financial
1:01:35security that allows he and his wife to
1:01:38just kind of figure out what's the best
1:01:39thing for them.
1:01:41You know, uh and that may mean that
1:01:42she's working outside the home, too.
1:01:44But, there's just something about kind
1:01:46of giving his wife and family the gift
1:01:48of that, you know, that steady work, uh
1:01:51that steady paycheck that is still very
1:01:54much linked to, um
1:01:55you know, happier marriages and happier
1:01:57families and more stable marriages. So,
1:01:59that's the that's kind of the cash
1:02:00piece. And the final, you know, C is
1:02:03about community. And the idea is that
1:02:05birds of a feather
1:02:08flock together.
1:02:11So,
1:02:12>> True. Okay, I'm just going to say,
1:02:13"True."
1:02:14>> And And Doug, you are your friends. No,
1:02:16you are your friends.
1:02:17>> Yeah. You are. Yeah.
1:02:18>> And if your friends are doing good
1:02:19things,
1:02:20you know, in life in general and in the
1:02:22family in particular, and you can have
1:02:24I've got great single friends,
1:02:26you know, who are who are living
1:02:29wonderful lives, virtuous lives in their
1:02:31own way. But, I'm just sort of saying
1:02:32like, if you have, you know, friends who
1:02:34are basically are encouragement to your
1:02:36marriage and encouragement to your
1:02:38commitment as a father or as a mother,
1:02:40you are way more likely to be doing the
1:02:42same thing. And if your friends are
1:02:43doing stuff that is going to drag you
1:02:45down, is going to put you on a path
1:02:47that's going to, you know, put your life
1:02:50in some kind of difficult, you know,
1:02:53predicament or is going to threaten your
1:02:57uh marriage and family, um then you're
1:02:59way more likely to do it. And the the
1:03:00classic example is a Republican
1:03:01governor, you know, Mark Sanford, right?
1:03:03And
1:03:04he had a bunch of buddies and they would
1:03:05go every year on some big international
1:03:07trip and have a wonderful time, right?
1:03:10And it turns out they were doing some
1:03:11stuff that was not good for, you know,
1:03:13their marriages. And Mark Sanford he
1:03:15involved with that,
1:03:16you know, that woman down in Latin
1:03:17America and that that torpedoed his
1:03:19marriage, torpedoed his political
1:03:20career. Um she was devastating for his
1:03:23children as well, right? And so just an
1:03:24example of how
1:03:26you've got to look at at your friends
1:03:28and and and and be with men and women
1:03:31who kind of lift you up and don't drag
1:03:32you down and hurt your marriage family.
1:03:34So, I'm not sure I'll have to talk to
1:03:36you about the way in which for many
1:03:37Americans faith community, you know, is
1:03:41is the community that is most likely to
1:03:45increase their odds of being both
1:03:47happily married and stably married. And
1:03:49so we see is that religious Americans,
1:03:51Doug, are
1:03:53significantly more likely to be happily
1:03:54married.
1:03:55Um between 30 and 50% less likely to end
1:03:58up getting divorced um and more likely
1:04:01to to be um engaged moms, especially
1:04:03engaged dads. So, for many Americans
1:04:06that that family-oriented community is
1:04:08found in and through a local um
1:04:11religious community as well.
1:04:14>> I've got basically three more questions
1:04:16relating directly to get married. The
1:04:18second question is going to be relating
1:04:21to your prior book in 2004. Uh so, it's
1:04:24still But coming back to your commitment
1:04:26C, um
1:04:29what if I boil it down that Well, this
1:04:31is a little bit different, but if I was
1:04:32just to say having respect for the
1:04:35institution of marriage itself.
1:04:37>> Correct.
1:04:38>> And you relate that to the vow you make
1:04:40in front of the
1:04:41if you get married in a church that says
1:04:44>> Right.
1:04:44>> for better for worse, for richer, for
1:04:46this is it and this is my solemn vow.
1:04:50>> Right. Yes.
1:04:51>> Having respect for your own promise and
1:04:54your commitment to your spouse.
1:04:56>> Right.
1:04:56>> That in and of itself, I think, at least
1:04:59in the olden days got people to stay
1:05:01married depending on your point of view
1:05:05all the way through the tough times or
1:05:06far longer than they should have.
1:05:09>> Sure. [laughter]
1:05:10Right.
1:05:10>> I don't know which.
1:05:11>> Yeah.
1:05:11>> But
1:05:12>> Both.
1:05:12>> What what do you think of that? I mean,
1:05:14is that too simplistic?
1:05:15>> Yeah, no, I think there were you know,
1:05:16for many
1:05:18uh
1:05:19for many folks, you know, there was a
1:05:20time when the vows that you took you
1:05:23know, in marriage, you know, till death
1:05:25do us part for instance, you know,
1:05:27forswearing others for instance, were
1:05:30vows that really were sacred, you know,
1:05:33and sacred both in a religious sense,
1:05:34but also just kind of in a in the sense
1:05:36of like, you know,
1:05:37like my sacred honor, right? Like I'm
1:05:39not going to get divorced, you know, I'm
1:05:41not going to, you know, have an affair.
1:05:44Um
1:05:44and that meant that you kind of had to
1:05:47um exercise a substantial measure of
1:05:50self-control and often kind of, you
1:05:52know, um endure a lot of hardship. Um
1:05:55and I think that in the sort of post-60s
1:05:58era, people kind of accorded less
1:06:01sacrality to those vows. They took them
1:06:02much less seriously and we we all saw
1:06:04the the consequences of that shift
1:06:06playing out in
1:06:08in families across America. So, I I
1:06:10think the challenge is can we reinvest,
1:06:13you know, those kinds of vows with a
1:06:15degree of sacredness today for our
1:06:17moment? And certainly, you know, some of
1:06:19the students that I see at UVA are are,
1:06:22you know,
1:06:24dead set on on kind of doing things
1:06:27differently. They've seen
1:06:29other things play out in their own
1:06:30families of origin and they want to kind
1:06:32of move in a different direction. Um and
1:06:34that that's an encouragement to me,
1:06:35Doug.
1:06:37>> Well, when I when I came to UVA from
1:06:39Carolina, I had um
1:06:41a lot of friends that were on their
1:06:42five-year plan.
1:06:44And they were of course gentlemen by
1:06:45that time, and so they were welcoming
1:06:47the stupid redneck to Mr. Jefferson's
1:06:50University, you see.
1:06:52And uh but right right around the corner
1:06:54here is is his Rotunda, and
1:06:57the author of the Declaration of
1:06:59Independence has sacred honor right at
1:07:02the end. So, there was something about
1:07:05that
1:07:06>> Right.
1:07:06>> that was part of culture. There were
1:07:08certain promises. I know that
1:07:11in commercial space, even down to the
1:07:15the yeoman,
1:07:17since they didn't have con- time for
1:07:18contracts, your promise was everything.
1:07:22If you didn't have that,
1:07:23>> Right.
1:07:24>> you know, you had virtually nothing.
1:07:27So, let's get to Christianity a little
1:07:29bit.
1:07:30>> Right.
1:07:31>> This is will be a card that we will use,
1:07:34I think, fit into other interviews.
1:07:36>> Right.
1:07:36>> But, your your book here is Soft
1:07:38Patriarchs, New Men.
1:07:40>> Right.
1:07:40>> How Christianity shapes fathers and
1:07:42husbands. So, how does the creator God,
1:07:46Imago Dei, Adam and Eve, the Ten
1:07:49Commandments, how does that further
1:07:51family and marriage?
1:07:53>> So, there's a
1:07:55a really kind of interesting
1:07:57evolutionary anthropologist, is what I
1:07:59call him, at Harvard named Joseph
1:08:00Henrich. And he talks about, among other
1:08:03things, you know, the way in which
1:08:05marriage is a keystone to most
1:08:08civilizations. That's kind of his view.
1:08:10And in particular to how he thinks kind
1:08:12of Western Christianity kind of played a
1:08:13key role in shaping the context of
1:08:18marriage and family life in the West. He
1:08:21talks, for instance, about the way in
1:08:22which
1:08:23Christianity basically made kind of
1:08:26marrying one's cousin unacceptable.
1:08:28There was kind of an expectation you had
1:08:30to kind of marry outside of your
1:08:31immediate kin network to kind of, you
1:08:34know, ascend. You know, to leave your
1:08:37your own family of origin and and and
1:08:39form a tie with someone outside of your
1:08:41immediate family. And so, that created a
1:08:43context where you couldn't have an
1:08:46overweening kind of,
1:08:49you know, of kinship where um
1:08:53>> [snorts]
1:08:53>> you know, everything was too kind of
1:08:56clannish
1:08:57or too, you know, focused on benefiting
1:09:00just sort of your immediate family.
1:09:01There's a kind of way in which that that
1:09:04encouraged uh the West as opposed to
1:09:07some other societies
1:09:09to embrace people who were kind of
1:09:12outside of your immediate kinship
1:09:14network and to created the basis for a
1:09:16certain kind of healthy individualism
1:09:18from
1:09:19his his perspective. So that's sort of I
1:09:22think one legacy of Western Christianity
1:09:24that we are that we are benefiting from.
1:09:27I think too there's obviously a way in
1:09:30which
1:09:31monogamy emerges
1:09:33from
1:09:35sort of the Judeo-Christian tradition
1:09:38and I think we might have sort of taken
1:09:40that for granted for much of the 20th
1:09:42century. I don't think we can in the
1:09:4321st century. I think that's sort of
1:09:45like the rise of polyamory and
1:09:48I think just the the existence of
1:09:50polygamy in many parts of of the world
1:09:53today
1:09:54still suggests to that we kind of need
1:09:58to relitigate that issue of monogamy. We
1:10:00need to understand and appreciate that
1:10:02by encouraging people to have
1:10:04you know just
1:10:06two
1:10:07parties to marriage
1:10:09there was a way in which
1:10:12Christianity was helping to cultivate a
1:10:14certain
1:10:15proper intensity to the marriage
1:10:17relationship, a certain degree of
1:10:18intimacy that is not accessible in a
1:10:21polyamorous or in a polygamous context.
1:10:24I think also we're able to understand
1:10:25and appreciate too as we look at the
1:10:27role of monogamy including from Joseph
1:10:28Henrich's own he's a wonderful academic
1:10:31piece on monogamy how much monogamy
1:10:33tends to
1:10:35lift up the um
1:10:38the sort of lives both of men and women
1:10:39in different ways.
1:10:41Men by giving them basically the ability
1:10:44generally to to marry someone and to
1:10:46have the beauty of a
1:10:48a marriage a family of their own.
1:10:50Um
1:10:52and for women kind of to protect them
1:10:53from being kind of treated more as sort
1:10:56of of objects of
1:10:59um that
1:11:00you know, where they're just sort of
1:11:02being kind of accumulated by
1:11:04you know, um or or sort of treated as
1:11:08um
1:11:09you know, as
1:11:11um
1:11:13>> dominate
1:11:13>> Yeah, where someone can kind of just
1:11:15collect a number of women kind of Yeah,
1:11:17and and sort of treat them in a more
1:11:18Yeah, domineering way as well. Um and
1:11:20then too, just understanding and
1:11:21appreciating as well that monogamy is
1:11:23much more likely to cultivate a certain
1:11:25healthy sense of fatherhood as well.
1:11:27That what we see is that um again, in
1:11:29the academic research is that um it just
1:11:32does it a good job of connecting
1:11:34ordinary guys to their kids on an
1:11:37ongoing basis. So, that's certainly I
1:11:38think part of what we see with part of
1:11:40the legacy of
1:11:42of Western Christianity based upon um
1:11:45his work as well.
1:11:47Um and then I think, you know, the other
1:11:49thing that I would sort of talk about,
1:11:50too, is just the way in which um
1:11:54men are encouraged to kind of live a
1:11:56sort of a servant
1:11:58take a servant orientation
1:12:00to the household and sort of see, you
1:12:03know, in Ephesians that they are called
1:12:05to serve their wife and their kids.
1:12:08Um and I think in many contexts, many
1:12:11cultures, many
1:12:13um historical moments across world, you
1:12:15know, history, um men have either been
1:12:18domineering
1:12:19towards
1:12:21their wife and kids or they've been
1:12:24>> the patriarch
1:12:24>> absent or out out of the picture. You
1:12:26know, they've been absent from the
1:12:28household, right? And so, I think what's
1:12:30beautiful about Christianity is it often
1:12:32has really encouraged men to kind of
1:12:33walk that And this is what I talk about
1:12:35in in in this book, um
1:12:37soft patriarchs, is that it's encouraged
1:12:39men to steer a middle path between being
1:12:42domineering um and being um much
1:12:47at well or being absent from their um
1:12:49and to really embracing their roles to
1:12:51sort of serve their
1:12:53um wives and kids um
1:12:56in their capacities as a husband and
1:12:58father.
1:12:59>> Yeah, that that became uh of course in
1:13:02in the Roman times and then certainly
1:13:06and
1:13:08you know, all of Western civilization
1:13:10all the way into the 1800s. Mr.
1:13:12Jefferson
1:13:14uh being a gentleman uh that was very
1:13:16much part of being a gentleman. Uh
1:13:19you know, was was was was was related
1:13:21somewhat to the Christian ideal.
1:13:24Let me go to um
1:13:25a question that really deserves a whole
1:13:28separate interview.
1:13:29And that is uh
1:13:31does everybody need to get married? Uh
1:13:33Jesus wasn't married, the disciples
1:13:35weren't married. Uh does that mean if
1:13:37I'm not married
1:13:39what what's the deal there? Uh
1:13:41how do you how do you think about that?
1:13:44>> We all have our own answers, but it's
1:13:45very important question.
1:13:46>> great question. It's important question.
1:13:48So, I think um
1:13:50you know, I don't think everyone is is,
1:13:51you know, supposed to get married. I
1:13:53don't think everyone's called to get
1:13:53married. Um
1:13:55I think there are some people who are,
1:13:57you know,
1:13:58don't have an interest in marriage um
1:14:00and, you know,
1:14:02I'm also, you know, a Catholic and
1:14:04certainly think there is a place for
1:14:06people living um you know, celibate
1:14:08lives for the sake of, you know, the
1:14:10church for instance, um the Christian
1:14:12community for instance.
1:14:14And often living beautiful and fruitful
1:14:16lives. I do think for most people who
1:14:17are not married, it's just important to
1:14:19figure out what's your community and to
1:14:21be really anchored into a community. You
1:14:23know, I said before that Aristotle's,
1:14:24you know, told us that we are social
1:14:26animals. And so, I think for most people
1:14:28who are single um it's really important
1:14:31to have that kind of, you know,
1:14:33community that's
1:14:34standing with you and for you. So, I
1:14:36think too it's important in this moment
1:14:37where, you know, I'm projecting that
1:14:39probably more than a third of young
1:14:40adults today will never marry.
1:14:43And this is a record prediction that's
1:14:45extremely sobering, I think, for me.
1:14:47>> it
1:14:47>> in the '70s? 15% something like that?
1:14:49>> between 80 and 90% of you know,
1:14:51Americans living over the last century
1:14:53would be you know, would be
1:14:55you know, getting married at some point
1:14:57in their lives. And so we're now seeing
1:14:58that that number is just dropping
1:15:00dramatically. And so again, we're
1:15:02expecting a record share
1:15:04of young adults not to have the benefit
1:15:06of marriage. But that also means that
1:15:07those of us who are married, um I think
1:15:10need to be more intentional about
1:15:11reaching out to people who are single um
1:15:14because they're often more likely to be
1:15:15um you know,
1:15:17in in need of friendship in this new
1:15:18world that we're living in. So, yeah,
1:15:20not everyone should get married, but I
1:15:21think we've we as a society have moved
1:15:23way too far away from kind of seeing
1:15:26marriage as the norm for the vast
1:15:28majority of people. So, um we might have
1:15:31said in 1955
1:15:33that we could use a few more people who
1:15:34are single, right? You know, some of
1:15:36these people getting married are are
1:15:37doing it for the wrong reasons.
1:15:39But I think now we're in a moment where
1:15:41um marriage rates have hit record lows
1:15:44and we're projecting, you know, um
1:15:46record lows of adults who are going to
1:15:48be ever marrying. And so I think it's
1:15:50time to push push the pendulum in the
1:15:51opposite direction towards embracing
1:15:54folks to you know, to uh get married um
1:15:57because they're not getting enough
1:15:59encouragement from their parents, from
1:16:00their professors, from their peers, and
1:16:03from the pop culture today um about kind
1:16:06of the value of marriage, the value of
1:16:08family and and we can do better on on
1:16:09that score.
1:16:12>> Brad, boys and men have been having a
1:16:14very tough time.
1:16:16Certainly. I I know Mary Eberstadt's
1:16:19husband has studied this in detail.
1:16:22Uh
1:16:23what's going on there?
1:16:25How do we fix it?
1:16:27>> Yeah, so one of the I think the most
1:16:28disturbing trends that I've seen, you
1:16:30know, in looking at American life today
1:16:32is sort of just seeing the what I call
1:16:34kind of the floundering fortunes of men
1:16:37in America, boys in America, or the the
1:16:39the male malaise that what of seeing.
1:16:42Where boys are often floundering in
1:16:44school, where boys are not, you know,
1:16:47doing well when it comes to
1:16:49the romantic arena, where young men are,
1:16:52you know, not gainfully employed,
1:16:55um and where all too many guys are
1:16:57spending all too much time on a game,
1:17:00you know, console, basically. So,
1:17:02there's a lot to be worried about here
1:17:03when it comes to boys and men in
1:17:05America. Richard Reeves does a great job
1:17:06of diagnosing how boys are failing
1:17:09educationally and socially,
1:17:11um and how men are failing um in their
1:17:13relationships and in the workplace, and
1:17:16how we're all paying a price because our
1:17:19boys and men are not measuring up in
1:17:22ways that, you know, girls and women,
1:17:24you know, would like them to measure up.
1:17:25So, great job kind of diagnosing. He He
1:17:28points out, for instance, and we've all
1:17:30sort of seen this. When it comes to like
1:17:31the middle school and high school
1:17:32awards,
1:17:33overwhelmingly it's the girls who are
1:17:35cleaning up. I see this in my own kids'
1:17:37schools, right? Um when it comes to
1:17:39who's doing well in high school, about
1:17:41two thirds of the top
1:17:43performers are girls in our high
1:17:44schools, and about two thirds of the
1:17:46bottom performers are boys in high
1:17:48schools. It's just kind of one of them.
1:17:49Here at UVA, the vast majority of
1:17:50students now are women.
1:17:53Um where are the men here at UVA? Is it
1:17:55Is it kind of point that Richard Reeves
1:17:57really kind of underlines in his book of
1:17:59Boys and Men? These are all important, I
1:18:01think, points for us to sort of wrap our
1:18:02heads around, try to figure out what's
1:18:04going on. When it comes to the sort of
1:18:06prescription,
1:18:08I think he is off the mark because he
1:18:11doesn't really articulate a clear and
1:18:14compelling understanding of how we can
1:18:17offer a
1:18:19new, but distinctive model of
1:18:21masculinity for our young men to sort of
1:18:23orient themselves to, to serve as a
1:18:25playbook, a guide for how they're going
1:18:26to navigate their world, how they're
1:18:28going to bring unique gifts and talents
1:18:29to the world they live in.
1:18:32Um what it is that they do as boys and
1:18:34men that's really important,
1:18:35distinctive. And he also discounts the
1:18:38importance of marriage, you know, for
1:18:40men.
1:18:41Um and we just know from a just a ton of
1:18:44evidence
1:18:45that there's just no question that
1:18:47married men
1:18:49are way more likely to be flourished
1:18:51than their unmarried peers. They work
1:18:53harder, they work smarter, they work
1:18:54more successfully. Their emotional
1:18:57well-being is markedly higher. Their
1:18:59lifespan is way longer. They're way less
1:19:02likely to commit suicide. So, there's
1:19:04just no question that if you are
1:19:05concerned about the welfare of men in
1:19:07America today,
1:19:09you've got to be dedicated to
1:19:11articulating a clear and compelling
1:19:13model of masculinity that our men can
1:19:15kind of latch on to and orient their
1:19:16lives towards. And you also have to
1:19:19really
1:19:20appreciate how the institution of
1:19:22marriage plays a key role in helping
1:19:25most ordinary guys flourish.
1:19:28And if you don't do those two things,
1:19:30you're not really doing all that you
1:19:33could to serve the welfare of men in
1:19:36America today.
1:19:40>> We would need a whole 'nother interview
1:19:42um
1:19:42to to talk about what the prescription
1:19:45is for being a man. Uh but I I don't
1:19:49have quite time for that.
1:19:50>> but let me just quickly say that and I
1:19:51talk about this
1:19:52>> big question.
1:19:53>> I talk about three P's in the book when
1:19:54it comes to sort of like
1:19:56Uh and it's really like thinking about
1:19:57what Also, we don't really kind of
1:19:59acknowledge that whatever people might
1:20:00say about what they're looking for and
1:20:02what women might say they're looking for
1:20:04in a guy, when it comes to kind of
1:20:05looking at how the average women kind of
1:20:07experience married life, what we do see
1:20:09is that women who basically report that
1:20:10their husbands
1:20:12are
1:20:13basically good providers,
1:20:16good protectors,
1:20:18and good at paying attention to them.
1:20:20So, three P's, you know, providing,
1:20:22protecting, and paying attention, you
1:20:24know, in profound important ways. Women
1:20:26who have husbands who do well in all
1:20:28three of those ways are on average
1:20:30markedly happier than their female peers
1:20:33who don't have husbands, you know, who
1:20:35kind of excel in those three ways. And
1:20:37this is just by looking at the numbers,
1:20:39you know, looking at what makes women
1:20:40happy, marriage. I was actually
1:20:42particularly surprised to sort of see
1:20:43how much women who kind of rate their
1:20:45husbands as good protectors,
1:20:47huge factor in women's marital
1:20:50happiness. You know, I didn't know that
1:20:51before I did just crunch the numbers.
1:20:53And I think that's about kind of giving
1:20:55them a sense of physical safety, like
1:20:57they feel like when their husband is at
1:20:59home or when he's walking about, you
1:21:01know, town with family, just kind of
1:21:03feel physically safer. That's that's
1:21:04meaningful to a lot of women. Um and I
1:21:07recount some examples, like there was a
1:21:09couple that I talk about. They were on
1:21:10the subway and there was a a guy who
1:21:12came up and tried to rob them and, you
1:21:14know, and the guy kind of stood up and
1:21:15confronted the, you know, the assailant
1:21:18and that was just like a huge thing for
1:21:20that woman. Um so that's part of the
1:21:22story here, but I think too, just
1:21:23recognizing that um providing is still
1:21:26important. Um and then then the newer
1:21:28thing is just kind of paying attention,
1:21:29having a husband who's like capable of
1:21:31emotionally and practically investing in
1:21:33the marriage and the kids is also kind
1:21:35of really important. So there I think
1:21:37three P's we can kind of hold up to our
1:21:38young men to to say, "Look,
1:21:40you need to be ready as you move into
1:21:42adulthood to provide,
1:21:44to be a a reliable breadwinner.
1:21:47You need to be physically fit and
1:21:49capable of protecting, you know, your
1:21:51girlfriend and your wife um and but also
1:21:54kind of being aware of socially what
1:21:56what is it that makes my wife feel, my
1:21:58girlfriend feel like she is protected
1:22:00socially, you know, um in in a wider
1:22:03array of of settings.
1:22:05And you need to capable of paying
1:22:06attention. That means putting down the
1:22:08phone, you know, engaging, you know, eye
1:22:11to eye um and being attentive to kind of
1:22:14social nuances and her needs in a
1:22:17variety of contexts, but also kind of
1:22:18once kids come along of like being able
1:22:20to really kind of give your kids the
1:22:22attention that they need. If you can do
1:22:24those three things, um you're way more
1:22:26likely to to thrive when it comes to
1:22:28dating, thrive when it comes to
1:22:30marriage, thrive when it comes to family
1:22:31life. And we're not doing enough right
1:22:33now to prepare our boys and our men to
1:22:35be good at providing, protecting, and
1:22:36paying attention to the women and the
1:22:39kids in their lives.
1:22:42>> That That all makes sense to me. The
1:22:44problem is that I most men I know aren't
1:22:47very formulaic in about how they go
1:22:50about their daily behavior. And if they
1:22:52become that way, looking at
1:22:55a formula, they will all of a sudden
1:22:57feel like, "Well, I'm just doing this to
1:22:58please whatever woman that's in my life
1:23:02versus having either
1:23:04a heroic role or a saintly role or
1:23:07>> Sure.
1:23:07>> some sort of model that you're trying to
1:23:10be like that maybe might be a person
1:23:13>> Right.
1:23:13>> that then becomes part of your
1:23:15character.
1:23:16>> Sure.
1:23:16>> Like Aristotle talks about how we we are
1:23:19what our character is, right? I think
1:23:20it's Aristotle.
1:23:21>> Right.
1:23:22>> And I think that's when you lose a
1:23:24father, and I'm talking to
1:23:26Brett, someone that was brought up by
1:23:28his mom.
1:23:28>> Right.
1:23:29>> It's It's a deeply troubling thing for
1:23:32for men. And so,
1:23:34we need to we need more heroes.
1:23:36>> Let me go to
1:23:37go back to Richard Reeves.
1:23:39>> Right.
1:23:40>> He He His prior book
1:23:43about elites, that was one of the main
1:23:45subjects. You talk about elites a lot.
1:23:47>> Right.
1:23:47>> I love One of my favorite books like
1:23:49Bowling Alone would be Charles Murray's
1:23:51book Coming Apart where he talks about
1:23:55What is it? Belmont and Fishtown?
1:23:57>> Mhm.
1:23:57>> Um
1:23:58could you comment on
1:24:02I mean, I'll just be blunt, how elites
1:24:04are saying one thing and doing another
1:24:06and hurting us.
1:24:07>> Right. There's a There's a huge class
1:24:09divide in American family life where
1:24:12what we're seeing is that Americans who
1:24:13are elites, who are college-educated,
1:24:15who are, you know, more affluent, for
1:24:17instance, are way more likely themselves
1:24:19to get and stay married today.
1:24:21Um and when my my book was sort of first
1:24:23coming onto the scene, there were some
1:24:25commentators, uh, like Matt Yglesias, a
1:24:27very smart, you know, center-left
1:24:28journalist, who was saying, "Brad, why
1:24:30are you saying that Americans must defy
1:24:31the elites, you know, in your subtitle
1:24:33here, because the elites, Brad, are the
1:24:35ones who are really, you know,
1:24:37flourishing at marriage and family life
1:24:38today." And what I think Matt didn't
1:24:40really appreciate is that my point was
1:24:42that, yes, elites themselves personally
1:24:44are often doing great on the family
1:24:46front, but they're often kind of giving
1:24:48out, you know, advice, giving out kind
1:24:51of, um, ideas and messages that are,
1:24:57you know, that are destructive, um, for
1:24:59ordinary Americans, that or in some way
1:25:02kind of diminish or devalue the
1:25:03importance of marriage and family.
1:25:05Um, and there actually was it Matt
1:25:06Yglesias had written a piece, you know,
1:25:08about 10 years ago, kind of in in one of
1:25:10his,
1:25:11um, publications in Vox, kind of like
1:25:14discounting the importance of marriage
1:25:15in American life. So, even he himself,
1:25:17you know, 10 years ago, I think he's
1:25:18actually more marriage-friendly now,
1:25:20but, you know, kind of just sort of
1:25:21said, "Hey, marriage is not really that
1:25:22important for, you know, our society and
1:25:24for our country." But, the point is that
1:25:26when it comes to sort of, again, school
1:25:28superintendents, college professors,
1:25:31mainstream media journalists, even
1:25:33C-suite executives,
1:25:35you often, I think, see situations where
1:25:37they're making decisions or saying
1:25:39things in public or advocating for
1:25:41policies that either intentionally or
1:25:44unintentionally, you know, undercut
1:25:46marriage or kind of discount the
1:25:48importance of marriage. Um, they're not
1:25:50talking about what they're doing in
1:25:52their own private lives, you know, to
1:25:54the broader public. They're not sort of
1:25:55sharing the wisdom that they have
1:25:57gleaned from their own private lives
1:25:58with ordinary Americans. And I think
1:26:00that's to the
1:26:01to the detriment of sort of
1:26:02working-class and poor Americans' lives.
1:26:04So, one example of this, for instance,
1:26:06in the book I talk about is that Reed
1:26:07Hastings, who's the co-founder of
1:26:09Netflix,
1:26:11mentioned in his autobiography that he
1:26:13was struggling in his marriage. His wife
1:26:16was not happy with his travel schedule,
1:26:17he had a lot of travel, founding
1:26:19businesses hither and yon.
1:26:22And so they went to counseling.
1:26:23And they talked through the issue and
1:26:25they figured out some arrangement, you
1:26:27know, that made her happy and made him
1:26:28happy or, you know, whatever they they
1:26:30compromised, figured out something.
1:26:33Um and, you know, they've been married
1:26:35more than 30 years, they got two kids
1:26:37together and now they're sharing a
1:26:38couple of billion dollars together. So
1:26:40they managed to make it. They kind of
1:26:41dealt with their problems, their
1:26:43challenges, their differences of
1:26:45perspective and they forged a path that
1:26:47was strong and stable for them, you
1:26:49know, um and their family.
1:26:51The problem though is that Netflix
1:26:53offers, you know, plenty of shows and
1:26:55movies that aren't particularly
1:26:56family-friendly, don't necessarily kind
1:26:58of, you know, in in a a winsome and and
1:27:02real way, maybe, you know, give us
1:27:04models for virtues and values that would
1:27:06kind of be helpful for ordinary people
1:27:08watching Netflix. And even kind of had,
1:27:11you know, this
1:27:12this movie that they, you know,
1:27:14basically sponsored, The Mar- The
1:27:17Marriage Story, that told a very kind of
1:27:19dark and discouraging tale about
1:27:24marriage, American life, kind of travels
1:27:26from New York City to LA with this
1:27:28couple, a professional couple, who end
1:27:31up getting divorced and experiencing all
1:27:33this drama with their their son.
1:27:36Um
1:27:37and the problem with The Marriage Story
1:27:39that Netflix
1:27:40told, you know, in in the movie, The
1:27:42Marriage Story, is that it's kind of
1:27:44like giving us the sense that that
1:27:45marriage in America isn't really
1:27:47working. And the irony is that
1:27:49particularly for Americans in that
1:27:50professional class, like the couple
1:27:52depicted in The Marriage Story, most
1:27:55Americans who are getting married today,
1:27:57Doug,
1:27:58manage to make it.
1:28:00Especially college-educated couples. The
1:28:02vast majority of them today are getting
1:28:04married and staying married. And that
1:28:05tale was not told by Netflix. So this is
1:28:07just one example of how I think our
1:28:09elites often do what I call they sort of
1:28:11talk left um when it comes to marriage
1:28:14and family and yet in their own personal
1:28:16lives they walk right. And what I'm
1:28:18hoping that we can kind of move forward
1:28:20to is a world where our elites
1:28:23in their capacities as senators, as
1:28:26Hollywood executives,
1:28:28as professors, as journalists, um
1:28:32not only kind of are often living
1:28:34decent lives as spouses and parents um
1:28:37in their own personal private worlds,
1:28:40but also in their public capacities with
1:28:42greater authority can help other
1:28:44Americans understand and appreciate the
1:28:46value of marriage and family and also
1:28:47push for policies
1:28:49that make it easier for ordinary
1:28:52Americans who don't have the same
1:28:54financial resources that they do
1:28:57to get married, stay married, and to um
1:29:01you know, live out the American dream um
1:29:03for for themselves.
1:29:05>> I'll just say that all the extremely
1:29:07wealthy
1:29:08billionaire or close people I know,
1:29:11they're all married. It whether it's
1:29:13right, left, center, uh and they've been
1:29:16married for a long time in every single
1:29:18case.
1:29:19Uh it doesn't mean that I don't know
1:29:21some extremely wealthy unmarried people,
1:29:23but in general
1:29:25uh that's certainly true.
1:29:29These words right here, save
1:29:31civilization.
1:29:33>> Yeah.
1:29:33>> Please comment.
1:29:38>> The great Harvard anthropologist Joseph
1:29:40Henrich talks about marriage as the
1:29:43keystone
1:29:45for most civilizations. And his point is
1:29:47just the way in which marriage tends to
1:29:52stabilize family life, tends to bridge
1:29:55the sexual divide between, you know, men
1:29:58and women, um tends to foster human
1:30:01flourishing, tends to advance social
1:30:04order. And so when marriage and family
1:30:07are flourishing as sort of the
1:30:08fundamental building blocks of any
1:30:11civilization,
1:30:13everything else tends to be more likely
1:30:15to
1:30:16kind of be working well.
1:30:18And here at the University of Virginia,
1:30:20we are kind of literally sort of sitting
1:30:23in the shadow of Thomas Jefferson's
1:30:25Rotunda here.
1:30:27His Monticello is just over over there,
1:30:29basically his his home.
1:30:32And we can appreciate how he underlined
1:30:35in the Declaration of Independence the
1:30:36importance again of life, liberty, and
1:30:39the pursuit of happiness. It's kind of
1:30:40three core American values, if you will.
1:30:44And when it comes to life though in
1:30:45America today, we've seen kind of a
1:30:46tremendous explosion what are called
1:30:49deaths of despair where more Americans
1:30:52are dying because of, you know, drug
1:30:54use, you know, or alcohol poisoning or
1:30:57or suicide you know, in recent years
1:31:00than ever before. What we're seeing too
1:31:02when it comes to
1:31:04liberty,
1:31:06you know, sort of the the American
1:31:07dream, sort of seeing economic liberty,
1:31:09kind of opportunity for people to to
1:31:11rise, you know, from often poverty that
1:31:14rags-to-riches story to riches, you
1:31:16know, in adulthood, that there are
1:31:17millions of American kids across this
1:31:19country who don't have kind of the
1:31:21opportunity to experience that kind of
1:31:23economic liberty over the course of
1:31:25their lives, which we as Americans
1:31:27value. And when it comes to the pursuit
1:31:29of happiness, we're seeing evidence new
1:31:31study from Chicago for instance showing
1:31:32us that more and more Americans are not
1:31:35happy. That millions of Americans are
1:31:37kind of failing at that classic
1:31:39Jeffersonian pursuit, the pursuit of
1:31:41happiness. When it comes to these
1:31:43issues, deaths of despair, when it comes
1:31:46to the American dream economically, when
1:31:48it comes to the pursuit of happiness,
1:31:50we've got more and more evidence that
1:31:52often times the number one factor here
1:31:55in why our country is not doing well in
1:31:58these three areas, life, liberty, and
1:32:00pursuit of happiness, is because
1:32:02marriage and family are failing, you
1:32:05know, or they're not happening in the
1:32:06first place.
1:32:07So, on the deaths of despair point,
1:32:09Jonathan Rothwell at at the Gallup um
1:32:13uh has [clears throat] been showing uh
1:32:15some work indicating that, you know,
1:32:17marriage is one of the top predictors
1:32:19of deaths of despair, especially for
1:32:21working class men across this country.
1:32:23Uh men who are not married are more
1:32:24likely to succumb to deaths of despair
1:32:26when it comes to economic liberty. Raj
1:32:29Chetty at Harvard and is showing us that
1:32:31the number one factor in his 2014 study
1:32:34um is the share of two-parent families
1:32:36um in a community. That's sort of the
1:32:38top predictor of poor kids rising from
1:32:41poverty into success as adults. And then
1:32:44on the pursuit of happiness, um what we
1:32:46see from this new study at Chicago is
1:32:48that the number one factor accounting
1:32:49for this decline in happiness um is the
1:32:53fact that fewer Americans are putting a
1:32:55ring on it. So, these are just kind of I
1:32:57think indications of the way in which
1:32:59when marriage and family are not
1:33:01flourishing,
1:33:02um our American civilization is not able
1:33:06to live up to its deepest ideals.
1:33:09>> My my theory on why that's the case is
1:33:12that um
1:33:14there's something about blood kin or
1:33:16family where particularly in the nuclear
1:33:19one
1:33:21husband and wife family, you maximize
1:33:23love.
1:33:25That you love your children and your
1:33:26spouse more than other people. That is
1:33:29seems to be just natural in humans.
1:33:32Uh it's not
1:33:34fundamentally required because we would
1:33:36say the disciples or Jesus or anyone,
1:33:38you can love. I mean, look at you can
1:33:41love tremendously and give your life,
1:33:44you know, for many causes. But on
1:33:46average in the walking around sense,
1:33:48you're maximizing love in society
1:33:51through family. Uh to me, that's just a
1:33:54truism.
1:33:55>> What are your legislative
1:33:56recommendations, Brad, to help fix the
1:33:59problem?
1:34:00>> So, when it comes to kind of renewing
1:34:01marriage in America, there's no question
1:34:02that there's a big cultural work that
1:34:04has to get done. We've got to do a
1:34:05better job in you know, our schools and
1:34:07universities, in the pop culture, and
1:34:10now in social media to kind of like make
1:34:12the case for marriage and family. Also
1:34:14to equip people with the the skills, you
1:34:16know, the values and virtues that they
1:34:17can grab onto to forge, you know, strong
1:34:21and stable marriages. But there is a
1:34:23place too for you know, public policy. I
1:34:25think we've got to tackle the
1:34:26affordability issue now when it comes to
1:34:28family formation. We've got to figure
1:34:29out ways um to make housing more
1:34:32affordable. We have to you know, that
1:34:34that for instance is like, you know,
1:34:36making lot sizes
1:34:38um smaller and reducing the regulations
1:34:40that builders have to navigate when it
1:34:41comes to building homes so that we can
1:34:42build homes that are affordable working
1:34:45class and middle class families.
1:34:47Finally, we have to tackle to what's
1:34:48called the marriage penalty where a lot
1:34:50of working class families now have to
1:34:53choose between marriage and something
1:34:55like Medicaid health insurance. Um just
1:34:57the way it is set up. So, we have to
1:34:58figure out, you know, how we can make
1:35:00sure that our public policies don't
1:35:01unintentionally discourage, especially
1:35:04working class couples from getting
1:35:06married today.
1:35:08We have to also I think think about on
1:35:10on the the male malaise issue, you know,
1:35:13reforming our schools and our
1:35:17you know,
1:35:18vocational education, higher education
1:35:20in ways to kind of make um them much
1:35:23more boy friendly, much more male
1:35:24friendly so that we have more, you know,
1:35:27men who are marriageable
1:35:29um and are attractive guys as both
1:35:31boyfriends and then later on as
1:35:33husbands. [clears throat] So,
1:35:34um these are some of the kinds of policy
1:35:36measures that we should be taking. I
1:35:37also think on the financial front
1:35:40that expanding the child tax credit and
1:35:42kind of giving families the opportunity
1:35:44to use that money, especially when
1:35:45they've got young children at home
1:35:47um to kind of tackle the cost associated
1:35:50with raising the next generation is
1:35:52warranted. Um and then finally what I
1:35:55would say too is that we should be
1:35:58expanding school choice um across the
1:36:01entire country.
1:36:02Um what we see in the research that I've
1:36:04done with colleagues is that young
1:36:06adults who come from um you know private
1:36:08schools
1:36:10often from Christian schools or Catholic
1:36:12schools are more likely to be getting
1:36:16married, staying married, having kids in
1:36:17marriage. It depends the story varies
1:36:21to some extent from which kind of
1:36:22school. But there's just something about
1:36:23the sort of normative, you know, climate
1:36:26um and social climate that is found in
1:36:28in private schools today that seems to
1:36:30be more conducive
1:36:32to getting married, staying married and
1:36:34whatnot. So I think we need to think too
1:36:36about kind of um letting more kids um
1:36:39have access
1:36:41to um schools that are often more uh
1:36:44family-centered and not kind of just
1:36:46making that um as is often the case
1:36:49today in in places where there's no
1:36:51school choice that
1:36:52the only people who can afford private
1:36:53schools are are you know rich families.
1:36:56And I would like to see an an America
1:36:57where it doesn't matter if you're rich
1:37:00or poor,
1:37:01middle class, whatever,
1:37:03um you can have access to a a decent uh
1:37:06private school that's consistent with
1:37:09your own uh families' uh values. Um and
1:37:13that's why I think we should do more to
1:37:14extend school choice
1:37:16across the country.
1:37:18>> That's That would be a huge thing and
1:37:20and we're we're trending somewhat, I
1:37:22think, there.
1:37:24Couple more questions and let's look to
1:37:26the future a little bit. Um
1:37:28to get a little political, do you think
1:37:30that
1:37:31we'll ever see the good old days that
1:37:33truly never existed, never ever existed
1:37:37where
1:37:38uh the opposing two parties in the
1:37:40United States really got along and
1:37:42compromised in profuse ways? But do you
1:37:45see the uh the the Democrat and
1:37:48Republican parties growing more apart or
1:37:50more together or is it situational or
1:37:53what do you think?
1:37:55>> Yeah, I think right now we're heading on
1:37:57a pathway towards greater polarization.
1:38:00Um and
1:38:01I think that's um
1:38:04partly because we make the mistake of um
1:38:08dehumanizing
1:38:10our [clears throat] opponents.
1:38:11Um and I would say, you know, as a as a
1:38:13Catholic, as a Christian um
1:38:16man, that everyone is created in the
1:38:19image of God. You know, everyone is an
1:38:20image bearer. And so everyone deserves
1:38:23to be treated with the dignity and
1:38:24respect that is due to them um as a
1:38:28child of God. And so I'm I'm concerned
1:38:30by, you know, people on in my party, I'm
1:38:32a Republican, and and people in the
1:38:34Democratic Party who say things and do
1:38:36things that
1:38:37clearly communicate that they do not
1:38:39look at the other side as as human um or
1:38:42as image bearers. So that's So unless
1:38:45and until we can do a better job on that
1:38:46score, I sort of see us heading in a
1:38:48worrisome direction of
1:38:50of greater polarization. I think the
1:38:51other obvious piece of this is the
1:38:52worldview piece. And this is just a
1:38:53fundamental challenge is that people who
1:38:55have um really different worldviews um
1:38:58on some central important issues and
1:39:01questions like marriage and family often
1:39:04have difficulty today kind of finding
1:39:06common ground. Um so that's that's a
1:39:08challenge. Um
1:39:11So I'm not
1:39:12I'm not kind of optimistic in the short
1:39:15term about that, you know, that issue.
1:39:18Um but in the longer term it's hard hard
1:39:20to know how
1:39:22you know, we might see some
1:39:24um people moving in ways that allow them
1:39:27to to find common ground.
1:39:31>> Just having watched the TV series on the
1:39:33history of the presidency since George
1:39:36Washington, it's usually some
1:39:38situational thing on the outside that
1:39:40knocks us in the face that brings us
1:39:43together again and we'll we'll see
1:39:45whether that happens.
1:39:46>> Right.
1:39:48>> So, let's focus this last question in on
1:39:51a time period. I think that helps. Let's
1:39:54take the summer of 2020, which to me was
1:39:57a very dark time.
1:39:58Uh it's it fostered the
1:40:02the founding of of the free speech
1:40:03alliances and and kind of woke up those
1:40:07in the private sector who
1:40:09uh thought everything was okay. They
1:40:11realized it wasn't. Sure. It's a little
1:40:12bit like the late '60s, let's say.
1:40:15>> Right.
1:40:15>> Um
1:40:16in your area in in your area of marriage
1:40:19and family,
1:40:21are you optimistic or pessimistic about
1:40:23the trend
1:40:26since 2020?
1:40:28How that's only 5 years, but
1:40:31>> Yeah.
1:40:33So, I mean I think I would actually take
1:40:34it back to 2014 and and Matt Yglesias,
1:40:37the journalist, had this great phrase,
1:40:39the great awokening, talking about how,
1:40:41you know, since around 2014, the
1:40:44the culture, especially young adult
1:40:46culture, moved in a pretty hard left
1:40:48direction on things like, you know,
1:40:50uh race and other sort of social justice
1:40:52questions. And I think from kind of my
1:40:55perspective, the biggest problem with
1:40:57the sort of great awakening is that it
1:40:59was I think linked to
1:41:01um
1:41:03a
1:41:04you know, a decreasing appreciation for
1:41:06the importance and value of marriage and
1:41:08parenthood as well as, you know,
1:41:09polyamory. So, it kind of sort of pushed
1:41:13a lot of young adults, especially young
1:41:15women, in the direction of kind of
1:41:17looking at marriage and family with a
1:41:20more gimlet eye, you know, a more
1:41:22skeptical eye or a more hostile eye. Um
1:41:25and also opened up kind of polyamory as
1:41:28a possibility for folks, women and men
1:41:30on the left, especially. And so, um I
1:41:34think as we kind of move beyond that
1:41:36that
1:41:37cultural moment that woke moment
1:41:40we need to kind of understand and
1:41:42appreciate how much
1:41:44actually you know marriage and family
1:41:46are good institutions and monogamy is a
1:41:49good thing for you know women and men
1:41:51and kids generally and
1:41:53you know
1:41:55we can you know put a lot of those
1:41:59cultural experiments or
1:42:02ideas that came to the fore in you know
1:42:04in the greater awakening
1:42:06put them aside and and move on
1:42:09move beyond them so
1:42:11we're very very grateful for your time
1:42:14today and wish we could continue on but
1:42:17thanks so much Doug it's been a pleasure
1:42:19to be with you thanks for for hosting me

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