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The Key To A Happy Marriage | Exclusive Interview with Brad Wilcox — Transcript

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0:00so kind of like the assumption that
0:01things like education work and money
0:03matter that's that's a correct
0:05assumption but what I think people don't
0:07appreciate right is that marriage
0:09particularly a good marriage is a better
0:12predictor of happiness and so what I
0:14find is that you know reporting that
0:16you're happily married in this survey
0:19blows every other variable out of the
0:21water
0:24[Music]
0:30Professor Wilcox thanks so much for
0:31sitting down with me it's good to be
0:32here L I've been an admirer of your work
0:34for a long time you're a professor a
0:37sociologist and author but how did you
0:39first get passionate about writing and
0:41studying marriage family and
0:43relationships yeah so I was raised by a
0:45single mom in the 70s and uh as I kind
0:47of look back on that time of life you
0:50know the vast majority of my friends uh
0:52grew up in homes with you know divorced
0:54parents and so that's kind of part of my
0:57you know life growing up kind of being
0:59exposed to a lot of family instability
1:02and um and then as I got older and kind
1:05of moved into college at the University
1:07of Virginia I kind of was sort of
1:09realizing that you know in terms of con
1:12connecting men to uh to their families
1:15that marriage is pretty important that
1:17if we want to kind of build a world
1:19where more you know kids are being
1:20raised by their own fathers we need to
1:22think about kind of how do we sort of
1:23strengthen marriage and so that was you
1:25know kind of the Genesis of my interest
1:27in in this topic kind of um you know
1:30having this childhood experience kind of
1:33not having a father in the picture my
1:35dad died when I was three um and sort of
1:38realizing you know that these were um
1:41important obviously experiences for me
1:42but for you know for for kids across the
1:44country in this this time when there's
1:47been so much family change in America in
1:49our PR life work we often share this
1:51statistic nine out of every 10 women who
1:54have an abortion are unmarried are
1:56single and you they might be in a
1:58relationship but they're unwed
2:00so what why should pro-lifers care so
2:03much about marriage yeah so I think what
2:06we see kind of in the research is that
2:08the primary alternative to abortion is
2:12marriage right and so when when people
2:13kind of feel secure when they trust
2:16their spouse you know when they feel
2:18like they're in a good place you know
2:20they're much more likely to sort of
2:21Welcome life in you know into their
2:24lives and so you know a decent marriage
2:27a good marriage is obviously the best
2:29place to have child um and so when
2:31marriage is strong in our culture um and
2:35when people are in good marriages you
2:37know then there's going to be obviously
2:39less interest in less need for in sort
2:42of their view abortion so um the good
2:45news about kind of family in America is
2:47that sort of the kind of dramatic
2:49increase in family instability that I
2:51experienced as a kid in the 70s um and
2:538s has bottomed out so in the last
2:56couple of years we've seen a slight
2:57uptick in the share of kids who are
2:58being raised and in married families and
3:00that's because divorce actually has also
3:02come down since 1980 basically um and
3:06the share of kids who are being born
3:07outside of marriage has leveled off
3:09since 2009 so when you kind of level off
3:12non-mar childbearing and when you bring
3:14down divorce that basically leads to
3:16more family stability for the kids who
3:18are being born in recent years and then
3:20since 2009 we saw like from the 60s to
3:23about 2009 just kind of a Relentless
3:25increase in the share of kids being born
3:27outside of marriage but that lels off in
3:302009 Great Recession but also the
3:32arrival of smartphones as well soon
3:34thereafter and so since that period
3:37we've seen no increase in the share of
3:39kids who are being born outside of
3:40marriage so that's good news in the
3:42sense that more kids are being raised by
3:44their own married parents in America in
3:46recent years so a slight uptick in that
3:48in that Trend so that's the good news so
3:50what's the bad news right the bad news
3:52of course is that marriage has become a
3:55lot more selective that means it's
3:58become much more of a kind of almost
3:59even Elite kind of thing you know a
4:01luxury good some people would would
4:03describe it right so marriage has fallen
4:05by about
4:0765% since 1970 when I was born and it's
4:11become increasingly kind of the the
4:14place where more educated more affluent
4:16and also more religious Americans are
4:18kind of parking their serious
4:20relationships in their family life so
4:23because it's become more selective the
4:26kids who are being born into marriage
4:28are enjoying more more stable family Liv
4:30and that's kind of the good news but the
4:32bad news is that more and more American
4:34adults are not going to have the benefit
4:38of getting married are not going to have
4:39the benefit of um also having children
4:42so we're seeing kind of the the
4:43fertility rates falling pretty
4:45dramatically since 2009 as well right
4:47and so family life has become a lot more
4:50again selective for people who are more
4:51educated more AAL more religious and
4:54Americans who are workingclass Americans
4:56who are poor Americans who are secular
4:58Americans who are liberal are going to
5:00be much less likely to get married you
5:02know in in this new world that we're
5:04living in and that's that's actually sad
5:06because marriage is not it's not a
5:08conservative thing it's not even a
5:09religious thing you know it's a human
5:11thing and so we're living now in a world
5:13where you know again more young adults
5:15will not have the benefit of this
5:17incredible institution so what are the
5:19factors stopping this these different
5:21groups that from getting married you
5:23you've made the comment that they are
5:24more privileged groups more educated
5:26more money uh more religious that are
5:29the ones that get married most what
5:31about the rest and how what what's
5:33keeping what's holding them back yeah
5:35there obviously a lot of things driving
5:36this sort of retreat from marriage and
5:38we're seeing this not just in the US but
5:40across the globe I mean East Asia is in
5:42a terrible spot right now when it comes
5:43to marriage but in terms of like what's
5:45happening in the US what I would say is
5:48there's kind of like a Midas mindset I
5:49think that's kind of captivated the
5:51minds of many young adults even many
5:53parents we're seeing now in recent Pew
5:55data and the idea with the Midas mindset
5:57is basically about Glory it's about educ
5:59ucation it's about money it's about it's
6:01about job you know career and there's
6:03this thought that kind of those things
6:05will make me satisfied those things will
6:07make me fulfilled think that's
6:09particularly prevalent among you know
6:11many um you know more educated folks to
6:15some extent there's also kind of um
6:19among folks who are more secular and
6:21more Progressive I think that kind of
6:23work orientation is stronger and they're
6:26also more individualistic it's more
6:27about kind of what I want to do what my
6:30agenda is and so there's kind of less
6:32interest in marriage per se and less
6:34interest in kind of um moving towards a
6:38a we before me mindset right and so
6:40those things um tend to inhibit one's
6:43sort of move towards
6:45marriage um now when it comes to kind of
6:47like the class story in America there's
6:49obviously a lot going on there I talked
6:51you know before kind of our conversation
6:54yesterday about the way in which many of
6:56our our public policies now penalize
6:58marriage among working class couples
7:00with kids so Medicaid for instance Child
7:03Care subsidies from the government for
7:04instance and so people are thinking
7:05about is Miracle like the best thing for
7:08me to do given that I might use access
7:10to health care or access to child care
7:11you know for my kids so that's part of
7:13the the story but I think a a much
7:16bigger part of the story is kind of the
7:18challenges that we're having with men
7:19who are not college educated and so
7:21we're seeing with men who don't have
7:22that college degree kind of not on that
7:24college track um we're not sort of
7:27Strivers by today's you you know um
7:30language is that they're much more like
7:33going to be floundering when it comes to
7:35school and work um often they're not
7:38working full-time often their girlfriend
7:40or their wife is working more than they
7:42are and this Dynamic Is Not Great you
7:45know both for kind of thinking about
7:47getting married and then also for
7:48staying married we see when it comes to
7:50divorce for instance that when a guy
7:53who's married loses his job his risk of
7:57divorce shoots up by more than 30%
8:00okay loss of confidence frustrations
8:02about maybe money often times he doesn't
8:04do as much around the home so there's
8:06just kind of all that stuff kind of
8:07plays out but when the wife loses her
8:09job no increase in divorce right so
8:12we're seeing kind of like this pervasive
8:14trend of men becoming disconnected from
8:18full-time work among workingclass and
8:20poor communities that spells trouble for
8:23for relationships it spells trouble for
8:24marriage and family so I think those are
8:27some of the cultural and economic
8:28reasons why we're seeing that you know
8:30marriages and Retreat particularly you
8:33know in working class and poor
8:34communities that's kind of known among
8:36people who kind of studies but I think
8:37what people don't realize those that
8:39these Dynamics are also applicable for
8:41more cultural reasons to more secular
8:44and Progressive Americans so I'm seeing
8:46my own research kind of a growing Gap in
8:48singledom and also in childlessness
8:51between Americans who are religious and
8:53Americans who are secular Americans who
8:55are conservative and Americans who are
8:58progressive and be and I that's because
9:00they have often different orientations
9:02towards things like work obviously Faith
9:05Family marriage um just kind of the
9:08things that really matter for them and
9:10so if you prioritize marriage as a
9:1220-some you're probably more intentional
9:15about looking around to find someone who
9:17would be marriageable and trying to you
9:19know make that relationship work whereas
9:20if you think marriage is not that
9:22important my jobs the most important
9:23thing at this point in my life you're
9:26going to kind of deprioritize you know
9:28love and marriage and then look around
9:29in your 30s and you might or you might
9:31not find someone who kind of like you
9:33know sort of fits your expectations for
9:36marriage but by that point your odds of
9:37finding the right person are going to be
9:39somewhat smaller so these kinds of
9:41subtle decisions that sort of Mark
9:4220-some and 30-some lives are now
9:46implicated by people's you know broader
9:49religious and and cultural orientations
9:51one group is those that are not educated
9:53are struggling as you said floundering
9:55in work and so maybe they don't feel
9:57that they're equipped or the values that
9:59they grew up with they grew up at a
10:00single parent home so it's difficult for
10:01them to imagine or to live you know that
10:04marriage so there's that group and then
10:06there's the group of the people that are
10:07very educated that are Strivers I think
10:10was the word you used and both of them
10:11lead to less marriage right so again I
10:14think we've had this big narrative in in
10:16the culture about how class is the Big
10:18Driver of the you know this Retreat for
10:20marriage and there is a big class divide
10:21when it comes to marriage of family life
10:22you know that's that's important you
10:24know but again I think the newer piece
10:27that my book is sort of focusing on part
10:29is is the way in which culture is also a
10:30Big Driver of contemporary marriage and
10:33family Trends and you know the folks who
10:36are kind of embracing um as I said this
10:39mest Minds that are more likely to find
10:41themselves in their 30s and 40s without
10:42a spouse without children um but on a
10:45more constructive note too um I do kind
10:48of locate four groups in the book who
10:51are more likely today to get married and
10:54to be stably married and reasonbly happy
10:56married and that's folks who are um
10:59Asian-American folks who are the
11:01faithful religious Americans folks who
11:03are conservative ideologically speaking
11:05but then also the Strivers the Strivers
11:06still tend to do the kind of at least
11:09right now and that could that could
11:10change you know depending upon where
11:11they sit on the ideological Spectrum but
11:13they do tend to forge um reasonably
11:16stable marriages you know at least right
11:18now so what are the marriage rates for
11:19the Strivers let's talk about them for a
11:21minute so if you think about Strivers in
11:23terms of college educated Americans is
11:25sort of like one way of thinking about
11:26that we would see that you know most of
11:28them are going to get married
11:29and and be stably married and have kids
11:32um today and that could change in the
11:33Next Generation but kind of for folks
11:34who are in their you know 40s and 50s
11:37they're stably married they've got kids
11:39whereas Americans that don't have that
11:40college degree are not typically going
11:43to live their entire lives in a stable
11:45maror so that's a big class divide when
11:47it comes to sort of your odds of being
11:48stably marri with kids in America but
11:51then there's that group within the
11:52college educated who hit their 30s or
11:54even their 40s and they are unable or
11:57struggling to find get married and then
11:59they struggle to conceive and have
12:01children and I hear a lot of
12:03conversation today about that group it's
12:04so hard to find somebody I think there's
12:07a lot of discontentedness where people
12:09maybe made it to some degree in their
12:10career and then they're like wait a
12:11minute what about this other piece that
12:13I thought was going to um happen to me
12:16you know materialize at some point yeah
12:19and so I do see a lot of students at
12:20ubaa for instance who will come into my
12:22office female students and they're kind
12:23of they're already kind of aware of
12:25these kinds of Trends and they're kind
12:26of concerned about you know um their
12:29prospects for finding a spouse um but
12:32there are other students too I think are
12:33they're not really cognizant of kind of
12:35like some of these newer challenges and
12:37they're much more focused on kind of
12:38like just really pushing work you know
12:40for the next decade and a half and
12:42they're not really thinking about how
12:43that might affect um their shot at Merit
12:46so I think those two groups are sort of
12:48like probably ironically the the
12:50students are kind of more concerned
12:51about an intentional about marriage are
12:53probably going to have greater shot at
12:55actually getting married whereas the
12:56students that I see who are kind of like
12:58really focused on their career for the
12:59next 15 years probably will end up
13:01having a bit more difficulty but I also
13:03see among the Strivers or among those
13:04who are college educated a pretty you
13:06know decent divide between those who are
13:09conservative and those who are
13:11progressive and so the happiest group in
13:13America both in terms of marital
13:16happiness but also happiness in general
13:18are conservative college educated
13:21Americans married or unmarried married I
13:24mean but okay one reason that they're
13:25more likely to be happy is they're also
13:27in terms of the larger population is
13:28more likely to be married and stably
13:30married they're more likely to value
13:31that and and that so college educated
13:35you know conservative Americans who are
13:37a minority obviously of college educated
13:39Americans they're the ones who I think
13:41they tend to have both sort of the
13:43cultural and the economic resources and
13:45often decent marriages that allow them
13:48to flourish and their kids to flourish
13:49you know so it sounds like they're
13:51saying it's the combination of
13:52conservative values and that often comes
13:55with faith um and you know religious
13:57attendance in addition to education so
14:00better prospects maybe economically that
14:02make for the happiest people in America
14:05right and the course there are different
14:06ways people can kind of do this and so
14:07as I mentioned before we see also
14:10asian-americans um are doing very well
14:12when it comes to family life and also
14:13very well when it comes to education so
14:16and they're not necessarily all that
14:18religious in some communities um and not
14:20even conservative in some communities as
14:22well right so but they have been able to
14:24kind of draw upon a certain kind of
14:25Heritage you know whether it's kind of a
14:28Confucianism or kind of commit you know
14:30from uh South Asia that facilitates that
14:33that orientation to marriage and family
14:35that sus them well too what are the
14:37greatest barriers to marriage for young
14:40people
14:41today so I think one of the barriers
14:43that we've touched on is kind of the the
14:45idea that a lot of young men are
14:47floundering and so both I think in their
14:49own eyes and the eyes of their partner
14:51they don't see themselves kind of as
14:52marriageable I think a kind of
14:54individualism that would want to sort of
14:57look at life through the the prism of
15:00what makes me happy what do I want to do
15:02rather than kind of trying to look at
15:04what you know a romantic partner and
15:07then what a spouse would like you to do
15:08what your kids want you to do so kind of
15:10not having that orientation towards
15:12someone besides oneself that kind of you
15:14know Contemporary American
15:16individualism um I think that technology
15:19is increasingly a barrier to marriage
15:21people are spending so much time on
15:23screens that they're not kind of
15:24cultivating kind of in-person
15:26relationships both friendships and
15:29dating relationships that would lead
15:31them to um get married I think we're
15:34seeing as well um you know people are
15:37not kind of plugging into Civic and
15:40religious institutions in their local
15:41communities that would tend to sort of
15:43you know support them and facilitate the
15:46move to marriage as well so um these are
15:49some of the barriers that um that we see
15:52when it comes to marriage but I think we
15:55don't I think sufficiently value
15:57marriage among young adults today um and
16:00we don't kind of do a good job of
16:02preparing young men to be um good
16:05partners and good
16:07workers and so these two Dynamics really
16:11help to make marriage a lot more
16:15difficult for this younger generation
16:17than for people getting married in
16:19previous decades 1950s you had a very
16:23different uh it was sort of an
16:25expectation that everyone would get
16:26married and I think most the large
16:28majority of people did is my
16:29understanding uh that's not the case
16:31today I've heard increasingly some
16:33people blaming uh feminism or at least
16:37the feminism that has uh hyperv valued
16:41women in the workforce um women outside
16:43of the home and they say well men being
16:46driftless today and not wanting to get
16:48married is because there's so few women
16:51that seem that they'll really go all in
16:54on the project of whatever the man's
16:55working on so that he can be the leader
16:57of the family what's your take on that
16:59analysis of where we're at today so yeah
17:02when it comes to feminism I think
17:04obviously there there are a lot of great
17:06things and then some things that have
17:07been you know not so great um when it
17:09comes to kind of its impact on marriage
17:11and family life and both for men and for
17:13women as well so what I see in the in
17:15the book is that
17:19um on kind of the more plus side I think
17:22kind of what I do see is that men today
17:25who get married and our dads are much
17:27more engaged with their kids
17:29and that's in part I think because of
17:30the expectations that feminism is kind
17:32of basically directed towards man and so
17:35I see for instance that both for
17:37conservative and Progressive couples uh
17:39wives are just a lot happier when their
17:41husbands are really deeply engaged in
17:43the life of the kids you know so that
17:45means being you know Hands-On in
17:48evenings weekends all that kind of stuff
17:50so that's that's I think a consequence
17:52of some of the the good effects of
17:54feminism Nancy piery I don't know if
17:56you're familiar with her work but she
17:57just came out with a book called the the
17:59toxic War masculinity and her theory is
18:01interesting she says that historically
18:03Men actually were really engaged in the
18:05home to the point of even being
18:06physically at home or in the home doing
18:09their their work and they shared a lot
18:10of roles uh you know there were some
18:12differences but they shared a lot with
18:14their family and worked alongside their
18:15family so in a way they were much more
18:17engaged in the Hearth and and and the
18:19and the life of so I think that
18:21perspective would like describe a lot of
18:2219th century right you know families and
18:25people living on farms or blacksmiths or
18:28whatnot where obvously you had couples
18:29living in a home and sharing a kind of a
18:32business in a sense together and so that
18:34would have been the case but if you kind
18:35of look at Trends from the 50s to the
18:38present we do see kind of a dramatic
18:40increase in the amount of time that men
18:42are spending with their kids right so
18:44they're kind of correcting course
18:46correcting the Industrial Revolution
18:48that took men out of the home for
18:5012-hour days and then they came home and
18:52there was no bandwidth for the life of
18:53the home right and you know make
18:55sacrifice so in my book for instance I
18:57talk about you know a former army
18:59officer who turned down a lot of
19:02opportunities to kind of go to
19:03particular bases or you know take
19:06opportunities to came this way in the
19:07Army and he did so because he knew that
19:09travel would be bad for his wife and
19:11kids so he's kind of like you know he's
19:14making decisions with kind of a family
19:15first mentality that I think is in some
19:17ways new and different probably
19:19different than the way his dad we
19:21approached work in family you know um so
19:24that's an example of kind of a newer
19:25mindset that's indebted in part to
19:27feminism now I think where we get into
19:29some trouble though is that feminism
19:31often kind of discounts this idea that
19:34women and men are in some ways different
19:36and have different interests in marriage
19:38different orientations to marriage they
19:39tend to parent differently um and so I
19:42think feminism because it's kind of
19:44reluctant to sort of understand and
19:46appreciate the ways in which women and
19:47men are different um can make it
19:51difficult for ordinary couples to
19:53navigate um things like Parenthood
19:56things like you know conflict in
19:58relationships
19:59so just for for example my wife and I
20:01first got married you know um we would
20:04have difficulty kind of navigating kind
20:07of conflict um and challenges because
20:11when I'm facing some kind of difficulty
20:14in my life for a marriage I tend to kind
20:15of just shut down I want to be left
20:17alone whereas when my wife is facing a
20:19difficulty or some kind of conflict she
20:21wants to talk it through and so she was
20:23expecting me to sort of talk about
20:25whatever I was wrestling with I wanted
20:27just to be left alone it's a wrestle
20:29with that and Min go back with her
20:31whereas when she was kind of
20:33experiencing some kind of challenge or
20:35difficulty she wanted me to be kind of
20:36empathetic and you know talk through
20:38things not try to fix it you know all
20:40that kind of stuff and we didn't really
20:42kind of appreciate at that point in our
20:43marriage that women and men often
20:45approach you know difficult things and
20:47conflicts in in different ways so I
20:50think there's been a wage feminism
20:51because it kind of you know basically
20:54denies these differences often leaves
20:57people with um a kind of a bad toolkit
21:01for navigating marriage family life
21:03working family decisions because they
21:04kind of have this default assumption
21:06that everything should become a split
21:085050 and that women and men approach
21:10relationships in much the same way and
21:12that's just not true for in part
21:15biological reasons so I think that's
21:17been probably one of the ways which
21:18feminism has been you know less than
21:21helpful for recent couples and marriages
21:24it's kind of fostering a mindset that
21:26expects that you know sex does doesn't
21:28really shape how people approach their
21:31relationships and sort of how they're
21:33oriented towards parenting and work and
21:36family decisions as well there's a lot
21:38of debate in some circles right now
21:40about what are the proper roles of a
21:42father versus a mother of a husband
21:44versus a wife and there's a lot of I
21:47think even hot takes online about what
21:49this looks like and claims you know big
21:51claims about how this looked
21:52historically it's funny as I look at
21:54some of these claims you know such as
21:56you know the man had nothing to do with
21:57child rare in uh you know and
22:00historically and and then you look back
22:01you know you read Pier's you know very
22:04careful historical analysis about you
22:05know men working very closely with their
22:07very young children um in your research
22:10what does the data show about with broad
22:12Strokes generally speaking the the
22:15maximally um the best the maximization
22:19of the family unit in terms of the role
22:21of the father husband versus the role of
22:24the wife
22:25mother yeah so in terms of you know
22:28marital happiness I mean I've seen some
22:31work done you know including by
22:33colleagues that kind of suggested that
22:34sort of basically you know the more that
22:37the wife earned in the marriage you know
22:40the worse the marriage was um and so I
22:43kind of looked at that question we've
22:44got a big new survey that we did with
22:46yugov um of 2000 you know married uh men
22:50and women in the US to kind of look at
22:51these kinds of issues so I was like well
22:54is that still true today um what other
22:56kinds of things do we see in terms of
22:57just gender role and people's um
23:00approach to to married life it was
23:02really more about kind of having a
23:04husband who is employed full-time that
23:06was kind of like you know that predicted
23:08better outcomes for um the women
23:11particularly the married moms in my
23:13sample um and then kind of having the
23:16ability to sort of do what she wanted so
23:18for some wom that would be work
23:19full-time some work part-time and some
23:22to be at home full-time with the kids so
23:25what I'm saying to you is kind of like
23:27the precise division of kind of earnings
23:29for instance um and sort of what the
23:32wife was doing wasn't a huge deal for
23:35these contemporary mared couples but it
23:38was the case that women were likely to
23:40be more happy especially if they were
23:42moms if their husband was employed full
23:44time and that sort of dovetails with the
23:47sort of larger research that I just
23:48referenced I mean Harvard study on
23:50divorce for instance that I just talked
23:52about you know finding that again for
23:54for men when they lose their job big
23:56risk you know of divorce when when the
23:58wives lose their job no risk of divorce
24:00there's something about even today in
24:032023 men having a full-time job that
24:06seems to be good you know for them and
24:08for their wives and their families
24:10whereas kind of how women are kind of
24:13navigating working family seems to be
24:16less you know an issue for for
24:19contemporary couples and so this is an
24:21analysis more of a stable job full-time
24:24for the husband for the father um the
24:26mother can have a fulltime job or a
24:28part-time job or even no job but
24:31provided and and those different um
24:33scenarios can work well but the key is
24:36that stable job full-time you know that
24:39satisfactory job for him okay well what
24:41about the children what about the
24:43children this is also another debate you
24:45know it's a lot of strain on a family to
24:47have two intense jobs that take the
24:49parents and the the kids you know young
24:51children a lot of research has been done
24:53on this young children need to bond with
24:56their mother you know not just some
24:57caretaker that they're shipped off to
24:59their mother what does the research say
25:01about the ideal role not just for the
25:03parents happiness but for the children's
25:05flourishing so I think there's there's a
25:07lot of debate about sort of how parents
25:10navigate kind of the lives of their
25:12school AG children um and one you know
25:15scholar that I know Don Browning is no
25:16longer living kind of talked kind of the
25:1760 hours R so kind of his his view was
25:20that kind of families could sort of you
25:21know divvy up things as they please but
25:24they shouldn't have you know the two
25:26parents working more than 60 hours a
25:28week when they have um you combined
25:31combined yes School AG kids I think
25:33that's a probably pretty good rule but
25:34in terms of younger kids and I think a
25:37lot of Americans don't realize this you
25:39know um a lot of Americans don't realize
25:42this there is a you know a pretty good
25:44body of evidence and it's it's sort of
25:45validated by you know Scholars at
25:48Progressive you know feminist Scholars
25:50at places like L University that in that
25:53first year of life you know kids are
25:55much more likely to thrive with a
25:57primary caretaker which is usually the
25:58mom and if they're spending too much
26:01time in institutional care in some kind
26:03of child care setting you know more than
26:0515 or 30 hours toing upon you know your
26:08assessment of the data those kids are
26:10more lik to have social and emotional
26:11challenges so I think where there is you
26:14know a pretty good consensus among those
26:15people who are kind of reputable is that
26:18in that again that first year of life um
26:21kids need a lot of time usually with the
26:23mom and so I think um we'd be better
26:27both sort of culturally and policy-wise
26:29to think about ways to um you know give
26:33kids um you know especially more mom
26:36time on that first year of Life all
26:37right so I want to get to that and but
26:38before get respond on what you're saying
26:40with another question but you said
26:42something else that was really
26:43interesting which is he referenced a
26:45sociologist I think his pasted but he
26:46said that he's just he his research
26:49found that for the school AG child 60
26:51hours a week between both parents
26:54meaning if one parent has a 60-hour week
26:56job the other parent shouldn't work at
26:58all
26:58um or if they have a 40e hour job the
27:00other parent should only work 20 hours
27:02is that so that that was just kind of
27:03his framework I I you know and they
27:05going to be debates and you know among
27:07sociologists and psychologists about
27:08kind of what you know but his point was
27:11that you kind of need to have you know
27:13time set aside for for kids and you know
27:17it helps to have someone at home you
27:18know when kids come home from school you
27:21know so all these things so I think um
27:24recognizing you can't have both parents
27:27kind of killing it you know
27:29professionally if you want kids to have
27:31some real connections um with their
27:33parents and have some kind of one on the
27:35home front is really you know with them
27:37and for them and for that young child
27:40back to the second part of what you said
27:42you know there is some folks who would
27:44argue well the mother and the father
27:46completely interchangeable sure so for
27:48that very young child you know the
27:49research says it just has to be a
27:51primary bond with some you know
27:53biological care caregiver it doesn't
27:55have to be the mother I mean I disagree
27:57with that I think
27:58you know day-to-day life experience just
28:00shows how important the mother is
28:02uniquely for that young child but what
28:03does the research show about that we we
28:06don't really have like a lot of evidence
28:07right now on you know um on stay-at-home
28:10dads in say that first year of life so I
28:13think um you know most of the evidence
28:16on sort of this question to date has
28:19been focusing on stay-at-home mothers
28:22you know compared to other arrangements
28:24um so what I would say is that we know
28:26right now that kids are most likely to
28:28flourish socially and emotionally when
28:29they have their own mother at home for
28:31that first year of life for some
28:33substantial you know part of of the week
28:36um now is it the case that a
28:38stay-at-home dad in that first year of
28:39life might you know be able to do really
28:42well possibly but right now the evidence
28:46that I've seen is that you know um kids
28:49benefit from having that stable
28:51caregiver at home and that's you know
28:53generally the mom well I'm going back to
28:55the other research which shows in to
28:57make marital marital uh maximum
29:00happiness having the dad the Father the
29:03husband have that full-time gain
29:04employment so it would be very hard for
29:06any man to be a stay- and home Dad and
29:08and maintain that rootedness family I
29:11know a number of guys are happily
29:13married stably married you know good
29:15Dads who have been stay-at home dads for
29:18parts of their kids' lives and so that's
29:19an important reality to acknowledge but
29:21on average I do find that um women who
29:25are married to stay-at home dads are
29:28what less likely to be happy compared to
29:30women who are um you know married to men
29:33who are um who are dads and and working
29:36full-time so we do see that um that you
29:40know women who are married um to State
29:43home dads are somewhat less likely to be
29:45very happy in their marriages what would
29:47be sort of your prescription for the
29:50midest touch minded individual who you
29:52know generally speaking at large our
29:53culture and I I don't know that this is
29:55wrong um by itself it do to pursue
29:58education to be the best you can be in
30:00your career to maximize your talents and
30:02your usefulness in society uh which I
30:04think is generally the the positive
30:06motivators of the touch group um what is
30:09the prescription though to temper that
30:12in order to put Family First yeah so I
30:14think it's important obviously to
30:15acknowledge so I looked at in this large
30:17National Day called The General Social
30:19Service it's kind of like the it's the
30:20gold standard for sort of like looking
30:22at American attitudes and experiences
30:24and a lot of different outcomes so the
30:26GSS tells us us that Americans who've
30:29got a college degree and more likely to
30:31be happy with their lives that Americans
30:33who are happy with their jobs and more
30:35likely to be happy with their lives you
30:37know um that Americans who have above
30:39average income more likely to be happy
30:41with their lives so kind of like the
30:42assumption that things like education
30:44work and money matter that's that's a
30:46correct assumption but what I think
30:48people don't appreciate right is that
30:50marriage particularly a good marriage is
30:53a better predictor of happiness and so
30:56what I find is that you know reporting
30:58that you're happily married in this
31:00survey blows every other variable out of
31:03the water so it blows again education
31:06work money it blows religious attendance
31:09it blows you know sexual frequency out
31:12of the water so all these other
31:13variables it blows it kind of it it's
31:15more important than self-rated health
31:17and these are all things that predict
31:18happiness you know Health sex religion
31:21education work money all these things
31:23predict happiness for the average
31:25American man and woman but having a good
31:27marriage Mar AG is far more important
31:30for the average American when it comes
31:31to their Global Life satisfaction so I
31:34think people are not appreciating when
31:36often in their teens and in their 20s is
31:38this they're thinking about their life
31:40ahead that you know getting a job at
31:44Goldman or you know being a professor or
31:48being you know a lawyer whatever it
31:50might be these things could be good
31:52things
31:53obviously but finding someone who is a
31:56good partner a good spouse who's a good
31:59parent you know ends up being a lot more
32:02important than how much professional
32:04success you might have so give them that
32:06reality you know when you are in college
32:08if you're in college or in a technical
32:10school or you know working somewhere
32:12else it's a
32:1320-some being open and intentional even
32:17about finding someone who would be a
32:18good you know spouse ends up being super
32:21important and our parents even religious
32:24parents are often discouraging their
32:2620-some from doing that in College hear
32:28that all the time from students I know
32:30you're too young you're only 25 it's
32:32like wait a second or or or at UVA
32:34you're only 21 don't think about you
32:36know marriage right now and what I'm
32:38saying to my students and the 207 things
32:40more generally is that look if you meet
32:41a great person um you should not cross
32:44them off the list you know and you know
32:47if they're a great person you should you
32:50know um you should get to know them you
32:53should see if there's a basis for a
32:54strong you know friendship and if there
32:56is and if there's some attraction there
32:58you should kind of pursue that um
33:01there's no reason you can't get married
33:03at age 23 or 25 or 27 and so I would
33:06just you know really encourage young
33:08adults to be much more intentional about
33:10kind of using college or other their
33:13first job as an opportunity to kind of
33:16get to know people and to be looking for
33:19that person you know who would be um a
33:21good spouse I fully back that um what
33:25what is your um advice for uh kind of
33:28landing on the right career you know
33:30there is a piece of advice given on the
33:31panel that you were on yesterday with Dr
33:33Anthony Bradley who we're going to talk
33:34to here in a little bit and he said that
33:36you should not as a man particularly if
33:38your planner your goal is to be that
33:40provider and that leader for your family
33:42that husband and father you should not
33:44pursue a career that is going to be so
33:46demanding that it um sucks up all your
33:49time with your family and that might
33:50mean less money what's your take on that
33:52and what kind of careers generally
33:54according to the research are the best
33:57for happy and flourishing
33:59families often times when it comes to
34:01sort of building out a career that
34:04sometimes the first couple of years can
34:06demand a lot you know of you um in terms
34:09of time and energy and whether it's you
34:12know a doctor or you know um someone
34:15working in in the financial sector
34:17whatever else may be journalism you know
34:19and so having some flexibility about
34:21those first few years I think is you
34:23know can be warranted but you've got to
34:25basically be aware of the fact that you
34:27you know um you can't travel too much um
34:31you can't spend too many hours at the
34:34office um you know before your
34:37relationship with your wife or your
34:38husband or your kid starts to
34:40deteriorate so um I think kind of being
34:44cognizant of the need as you kind of
34:46move
34:47into the in the the fourth fifth sixth
34:49seventh year of your marriage um to kind
34:52of put boundaries around you know time
34:55that's going to be important for people
34:56who are in you know more high powered
34:58careers but I think more generally it's
35:00just kind of important to realize that
35:02you know marriages and kids are more
35:05likely to thrive when we have real and
35:07person time together um and
35:10so you just have to kind of be aware of
35:13that reality and and make decisions in
35:16kind of you know that honor that that
35:19reality so I mentioned before like this
35:22army officer very talented guy um you
35:25know and he just un occas turned down
35:28opportunities to go places in the Army
35:30because he realized it would put a
35:32strain on his marriage and his kids and
35:35um I you know his he and his wife have a
35:38number of kids they've been stabling
35:40married for a long time and yet I know
35:42other other friends in the Army who
35:44didn't pursue that strategy and and
35:46they're divorced and and their kids are
35:49in many cases oftentimes you know were
35:51were head pretty hard by that whole
35:53situation so I think a lot of people are
35:55looking for that rule of thumb because
35:57there's there's a lot of mixed messages
35:58obviously and then there are those you
36:00know anomalies you know that person who
36:02was you know in that crazy eye powered
36:04career and their kids seem to be fine
36:06you know or I think just just to realize
36:08that on average you know that that our
36:09kids are more likely to thrive when they
36:11have lots of family time with the whole
36:12family and I I found that this is like
36:15for instance like doing fun things as a
36:17family like you know hiking athletic
36:20events these things are all linked to to
36:23in fact better marriages and better kids
36:24outcomes as well but I also found
36:26surprisingly too that doing more chores
36:29together as a family and this is for us
36:31has been often like Crucible you know
36:33extremely difficult with our kids um but
36:36was an even better productor of Neal
36:38quality surprised me in B data so I
36:40think kind of actually doing productive
36:41work together as a family um which I
36:44think is often minimized in more upper
36:46middle class homes it's you know it's
36:48about soccer it's about school it's
36:52about you know work um but not
36:55necessarily like you know um making
36:57dinner
36:58you know doing uh yard work you know
37:01fixing their own household stuff right
37:03but it turns out that stuff ends up
37:05being you know even more predictive for
37:07good marital outcomes and I think
37:08actually too it gives kids a sense of
37:10accomplishment uh we've got some friends
37:12who have uh founded a farm together and
37:15so they have an organic farm that
37:17they're running their kids are helping
37:18out with the animals those kids are so
37:22virtuous and so happy um it's pretty
37:25impressive um so anyways I'm not I'm not
37:28going to give you like one rule I'm just
37:30going to say to you that I think we have
37:31to all of us as spouses and parents have
37:33to recognize and appreciate that time
37:35matters and that we need to kind of be
37:38intentional about maximizing our time
37:40with our our spouses and our kids and uh
37:44doing both fun but also productive work
37:46in our homes and is part of the secret
37:48to that I because you know asking these
37:50very specific questions like how much
37:51time and how do you determine that
37:53amount of time and I think what you're
37:54saying is it's a lot of it as a
37:55credential decision that you you make as
37:58you kind of assess how things are going
38:00uh but if you're raised in a home that
38:03you know was dysfunctional and there
38:05wasn't um you know there wasn't a clear
38:07model of how to do this successfully and
38:10then you're kind of in you're without a
38:12community of people that you can kind of
38:15not fully not compare in a bad way but
38:17kind of see yeah this is how they're
38:18doing it and it's working this doesn't
38:20seem to be working uh if you're kind of
38:22a Lone Ranger out there and a lot of
38:24people I think feel like Lone Rangers
38:26then they're looking they're going to
38:27the internet for like the prescription
38:29you know so what would be that I guess
38:30that underlying message it sounds like
38:32the underlying message is this has to be
38:34done in a community and I think we have
38:35to recognize and appreciate that if
38:37you've got family who are kind of living
38:39close to whether it's you adult siblings
38:42or grandparents in the mix I think
38:44things become much easier you know so we
38:46for instance when we had our twins my
38:48in-laws moved you know from one part of
38:51Virginia to Charlottesville and that
38:53made our life you know so much easier
38:56and better and so when it comes to and
38:57navigating work and family and soccer
39:01you know they're in the mix um helping
39:04to kind of take kids to soccer games and
39:07school and so that just makes everything
39:09that much easier in their family so we
39:10trust them we love them they love and
39:12Trust our children so that's I think one
39:14part of the solution is sort of being if
39:16you can to live close to your kin which
39:19you know is not always possible but I
39:21think people can be intentional about if
39:23you know if they have that Latitude um
39:26and then I think there big piece in in
39:28the book is religious communities and
39:29again not everyone's religious um but I
39:32think when you're surrounded by people
39:33who kind of share your faith um you know
39:36navigating the challenges again of of
39:38family life work um when we had our
39:40twins again we had people coming you
39:43know from our Evangelical and Catholic
39:46Network um for an entire month with
39:49dinners um and we already had you know
39:52other kids in the household at that
39:54point so that was just a lifesaver you
39:57know so again I think recognizing that
39:59you know we are social animals as
40:00Aristotle said and so having kin and
40:03having a community that you're a part of
40:06makes navigating all these challenges
40:08today that much easier so uh another
40:12question along these veins of family
40:14life and children we are facing a
40:16demographic winter we're below
40:17replacement rate in the United States
40:19meaning less than 2.1 children per
40:21couple I think it's 1.6 or seven now
40:23about 1 point I mean it depends it's
40:25around 1.6 1.7 right now so less people
40:28are having kids and choosing to have
40:29kids including some married couples or
40:31they're just having less you know only
40:33one child or two children uh why is this
40:37happening and then what are the
40:38consequences of this so I think part of
40:40this is about what I called the mest
40:41mindset so if you're kind of like really
40:43chasing you know work financial success
40:46you know you can kind of postpone
40:48marriage and postpone you know things so
40:52that you actually end up not even having
40:53the kids you wanted to have right cuz
40:55you kind of just kind sort of focus on
40:57something besides um or not having the
40:59number of kids that you wanted to have I
41:01think that's part of the story here um I
41:04think it's also the case too that um
41:06declining marriage rates are one reason
41:08that we're seeing fertility fall um in
41:11the US and other parts of the world
41:13because married couples tend to have
41:15more kids um and feel more confident
41:18about having children um I also think
41:21too that people are kind of experiencing
41:24difficulty around kind of finding
41:25affordable housing particularly in large
41:28metropolitan areas like Los Angeles or
41:30Washington DC and so um kind of
41:34difficulties finding housing can make
41:36them put off marriage and put off having
41:38kids or or even forgo having kids um so
41:42these are all the kinds of things that
41:44are kind of in the mix in part because
41:47people are living online a lot more um
41:50there is a sense of
41:52anxiety there is a sense that the world
41:55is a difficult place there are concerns
41:58about the environment so like these
42:00there are these kind of newer concerns
42:02that are kind of mediated by our new
42:03technologies that I think also tend to
42:05kind of make people less inclined to um
42:09you know risk having a child as well so
42:13um but I think what people don't
42:15appreciate is that um for most of us I
42:21think there is nothing that brings our
42:24lives more meaning you know than having
42:27um a child and or having kids and so
42:31kind of closing that door to Children um
42:36ends up I think you know depriving
42:40people of a tremendous opportunity to
42:42live a more um you know meaningful and
42:46Powerful life
42:47so what would be your advice for those
42:51people who are not sure I mean you you
42:54just said it beautifully you can May
42:56close that door to that more meaningful
42:57life but based on the research that
42:59you've done what does the research say
43:02about even married couples who choose
43:04not to have children so I think there's
43:06no question that having young children
43:09is extremely difficult in many cases and
43:11contexts although again having like
43:12inlaws having kin having a religious
43:15community can can make that difficult
43:18experience more you know more easily
43:20navigated right but there there is some
43:23suffering obviously some sacrifice you
43:25know that having kids brings and and
43:28having teenage kids brings obviously as
43:31well um so I don't want to kind of
43:33sugarcoat the difficulties of parenting
43:36um and I think people see that they'll
43:38go to like a restaurant and they'll see
43:39some you know toddler having a fit and
43:42the parents are completely undone and
43:44that's what sort of like their
43:45impression of Parenthood is like I don't
43:47want that right um or they'll recognize
43:49that people have to make sacrifices when
43:51it comes to their career you know when
43:53they have children they like I don't
43:54want that um but I think what they don't
43:56appreciate is sort of the way in which
43:58when we kind of give ourself to someone
44:00else when we give oursel to our child
44:03there's something beautiful and Powerful
44:04about that and um it endows our Liv just
44:07such meaning and purpose um and then
44:09twoo our kids become ambassadors you
44:11know for us to A Whole New World so for
44:14instance you know I have a one of my
44:16twins you know likes to make ice cream
44:18and so she's made ice cream for our
44:20neighbors who are a bit older so she
44:22brings them ice cream and so we spend
44:24time with them and just to see the look
44:26on their face you know um you know and
44:29so it kind of forges a stronger
44:30relationship with our neighbors we've
44:32got kids who play soccer and so you know
44:35standing on the sidelines you know
44:37basically exchanging pleasantries with
44:40other parents on the sidelines so I'm
44:42you know you meet new people in your
44:43community because your kids are drawing
44:46you into the school the soccer um the
44:50youth group you know and so again the
44:52kids kind of bring you out of yourself
44:54and into your community in ways that I
44:56find to be you know deeply meaningful
44:58and so we do see that parents today
45:00report um more meaningful lives less
45:04lonely lives and also kind of over the
45:08course of their Prime adult years more
45:10happiness and this is kind of noteworthy
45:12because there's been a lot of research
45:13telling us that back in like the 80s and
45:1690s American parents were less happy
45:19than childless adults but that
45:22relationship has flipped in recent Years
45:25and we're not entirely sure why that's
45:26the case it might be because you know
45:29parenting is more selective today so
45:30maybe it's the kind of people who where
45:31parents just have more going for them
45:33but I would also have to guess that in
45:36an age when we're spending too much time
45:39on these devices you know one of the the
45:42good things about being a spouse and a
45:43parent today is that if you're halfway
45:45decent spouse or halfway decent parent
45:47you can't be online all the time right
45:49and so I think one of the things that
45:51being a spouse and being a parent does
45:52for us today is it kind of forces us to
45:55get off of our screen and to engage real
45:58people in the real world including
46:00outside of our homes so I think that
46:02could be why maybe in part we're seeing
46:04the parents so again so people are
46:06thinking you should I have kids what I
46:07would want to remind them is that kind
46:08of over the course of your lives they're
46:10going to you know um in the main um I
46:15think bring you so much joy and purpose
46:17and also kind of bring you into new
46:19communities and new places that you
46:20would never have gone without the
46:21benefit of your own children it's
46:23beautiful what about the Elder years you
46:25know part of the demographic winter
46:26threat is that the population is
46:28unbalanced and so you have this uh you
46:30know a large amount of people who are in
46:32their Elder years they have greater
46:33needs um they're not kind of bread
46:35winner in the same way and then there's
46:38less younger people to maybe care for
46:40that aging population what does that
46:42mean like for the at large population
46:44and then what does that mean also in
46:45terms of the research for the individual
46:47who is you know now 80 years old you
46:49know maybe they married maybe they
46:50didn't but they don't have children
46:53grandchildren you know that's not part
46:54of their end of life experience
46:57yeah no and the research is is you know
46:59as to some of these topics pretty
47:00contested about whether or not kind of
47:02older Americans who are childless for
47:05instance are worse off than their peers
47:07who are not so to be honest there that's
47:10there's kind of a debate about that in
47:12the research but I would also say that
47:15um we have seen kind of this playing out
47:17kind of in a in a leading way a whole
47:20generation of older Japanese adults who
47:22are kind of living on their own in these
47:25you know large complexes and and they're
47:28not visited you know there's even an
47:31this is a New York Times story a couple
47:32years ago on Japan it was just really
47:34really sobering talking about there's
47:35this whole industry of where they clean
47:37out Apartments um of people who died and
47:41were only discovered like you know two
47:43three weeks four weeks after they died
47:45because there was just no one in
47:46connection with them so that's kind of
47:48an extreme case right but it just sort
47:49of suggests like if you're living in a
47:51world without Ken um as an older person
47:54things can get pretty bleak and I do
47:56visit a Nursing Home in charlest with my
47:58children and you know you do see
48:00obviously that there are some people
48:02there who you know just don't have adult
48:05children kind of As you move into that
48:06last chapter for older
48:08Americans it's friends and family who
48:11visit you know and so you may be super
48:13invested in your work you know at age 35
48:16or 25 or 45 and so people have to
48:19remember that you know at the end of the
48:21day family and friends are most
48:24important for us one more topic to
48:26explore the time we have is the whole
48:29Kind of post-sexual Revolution Society
48:31at large where sex is not seen as
48:34something that belongs exclusively in a
48:36marriage sure uh you have a lot of um
48:39premarital sexual experiences I think
48:41the large majority of people have had
48:44have end up having premarital sex sure
48:46although I think there that number might
48:47be slowly declining in res research so
48:50sex is coming down which is kind of
48:51surprising I don't know about the number
48:53of I mean I'm not sure about the share
48:55of folks who are having sex before
48:56marriage but okay sure I I think it's
48:58seen as a joke today to save sex for
49:01marriage a lot of people think it's kind
49:03of a joke and there's even people that
49:05make fun of um virginity typically uh so
49:09what would be what does the research say
49:12about premarital sex and
49:15outcomes later on in terms of happiness
49:18and you know strong
49:20relationships yeah so I think what's I
49:22think surprising for a lot of young
49:24adults who kind of um come AC across
49:27this research on my my big family class
49:28Eva for instance is that we see this
49:31work that's been done by colleagues at
49:33the University of Denver Scott staning
49:35glena rhods for instance that shows us
49:38basically that um when it comes to sex
49:42and kind of cabining relationships as
49:44well kind of you know in most things
49:47like the more experience you have the
49:49better like the more journalism you do
49:51the better you're at it you know the
49:52more tennis you play you know soccer you
49:54play piano you play the better you're at
49:57this thing when it comes to kind of like
49:59serious relationships um and sexual
50:02partners what we do see is that kind of
50:04the more you have heading into a
50:07marriage the worse you do in the
50:08marriage both in terms of maral quality
50:10and in terms of your risk of divorce so
50:12we don't necessarily have like the full
50:14story about why that's the case um and
50:16it's certainly surprising to a lot of my
50:18students at UVA and to folks who hear
50:20about this research in other contexts um
50:23but there is just something about having
50:25um you know a lot of Partners be linked
50:29to worse outcomes
50:31and um again we don't know entirely why
50:34from a social scientific perspective
50:36that's the case I have some theories one
50:39theor is just I think kind of like this
50:40this is like a comparison thing right so
50:42like if you know if um you know you
50:46you're with will you live with Will and
50:48he was super ambitious and you Liv with
50:50John he was really funny and charming
50:52and then you marry you know um Lawrence
50:56and he's a great guy but doesn't you
50:57know not as ambitious or as traing as
50:59your previous you know Partners you
51:00might kind of at some point in your
51:02marriage you know discount him right um
51:05that could be part of the the or could
51:06be just like the experience of like
51:07having serious breakups you know um
51:11might kind of give you experience with
51:12kind of like handling a difficult
51:15chapter in your relationship by you know
51:17ending that relationship moving really
51:20quickly into a relationship not just
51:23physically but also
51:24emotionally is linked to worse outcomes
51:27for the average person not know their
51:28exceptions like you kind of you know we
51:30we we've all heard these stories where
51:32you kind of meet someone and there's
51:33like this immediate chemistry and they
51:35end up getting married and everything is
51:36just wonderful but for most people
51:39there's something about kind of taking
51:40things slowly both emotionally and
51:43physically that seems to kind of how
51:45slowly because some people they're like
51:46okay seven years dating now maybe we'll
51:48get me yeah no I'm not saying yeah I
51:50mean I you know I would say like um from
51:52maybe start to marriage you know it
51:55would depend on obviously the case but
51:57like um you know a year or two or three
52:00years um common scenarios that people in
52:04their 20s and even teens will kind of go
52:07you know from 0 to 60 in the space of
52:09even an evening right and that we we
52:11know is just not is not good because
52:13you're not having the opportunities to
52:14kind of get to know someone and figure
52:16out is this a good match do we share
52:18common commitments common interests do
52:20we like fun things to do together um and
52:23you're not kind of like giving your
52:25yourself and your relationship the space
52:27to kind of exercise some credential
52:29judgment about whether or not there's a
52:30good F I've heard um people say pretty
52:33frequently you know there's sort of the
52:36wisdom prevailing wisdom today that it's
52:39better to live together with someone
52:40before you get married because then
52:42you'll really get to know them they
52:44maybe would say they agree with you on
52:46Tempo like I really want to get to know
52:47them and it's not just about having sex
52:48with them it's about like really having
52:49a household with them and seeing if
52:51you're compatible uh what do you have to
52:53say to that so again the research Scott
52:57Stanley this professor at the University
52:58of Denver and what his research and
53:00tells us is that kind of moving in
53:02together before you have an engagement
53:04is a bad idea um and he talks about kind
53:07of sliding versus deciding so the idea
53:10here is that people often kind of you
53:13know they're together they're enjoying
53:15each other's company and they just kind
53:16of slide in without kind of making some
53:18clear determinations about what's
53:20happening where they're going and that
53:22this is kind of like the most risky
53:23scenario because um then you're kind of
53:26lock in right and so you you're living
53:28in an apartment together you may sign a
53:29lease together you may get a sofa
53:31together may get nowadays a pet together
53:33and so then it becomes difficult to
53:35break that relationship um if it's not
53:37really like the best you know fit and so
53:40his point about kind of cavitation today
53:42is that it's often linked to the sliding
53:44versus deciding pattern and it's much
53:46better to kind of get to know someone
53:48slowly and then make a decision about
53:50your future together you know um and get
53:55engaged get get married um and again on
53:58the research there is some debate about
54:00the sort of like the space between an
54:01engagement and The Wedding Date and
54:03there's some folks who would say you
54:05should wait until the wedding dat to
54:06kind of move in there's some folks that
54:07would say well at least once are engaged
54:09you know together then it's fine so
54:11that's where the debate is to be honest
54:13interesting who is most likely to be
54:15happy based on decisions and
54:17circumstances you know with their
54:20relationships uh I think there you know
54:22is some literature now more stories come
54:25out about how if you're single
54:27successful woman the rides of sort of
54:29the very happy single woman who doesn't
54:31have you know children or you know an
54:33unhappy marriage holding her down what
54:35does the research say today about who is
54:38happiest in America so obviously have to
54:40we all know people who are unhappily
54:41married right we all know people who are
54:43single and and just killing it right so
54:45that's that's so there's like obviously
54:46many different life stories out there we
54:48have to acknowledge those different
54:49stories but on average because we are
54:51social animal social animals as
54:53Aristotle said you know we're most
54:55likely to be FLIR ing when we're in good
54:58relationships with with family and
54:59friends and so what we see is that for
55:02women today kind of 1855 women who are
55:05married with kids are the happiest 40%
55:08of them for instance in the GSS are very
55:11happy compared to less than 30% of their
55:14peers who are either not married or who
55:16are who are childless so there is a kind
55:19of at least premium associated with you
55:22know marriage and motherhood today that
55:24um you know we see in terms of the the
55:26sort of Happiness story now Scholars
55:30will kind of debate about whether or not
55:31marriage per se or mhood per se is the
55:34thing driving that story but I think we
55:36can't kind of minimize the fact that a
55:39lot of folks are saying that single
55:42childless women are the ones who are
55:44most likely to be flourishing today and
55:46I'm saying well empirically that's not
55:47true and so we should kind of give
55:49people some comfort about making the the
55:51jump into marriage and the jump into
55:53motherhood in terms of just recognizing
55:55them at least today
55:57married moms are the ones most likely to
55:59be happy but also of course most likely
56:00to be reporting meaningful lives they're
56:02the least lonely Etc again motherhood is
56:04extremely challenging marriage can be
56:06obviously very challenging at times as
56:09with any relationship right but that on
56:11average because we are social animals
56:13we're most likely to be flourishing when
56:15we're embedded in these profound
56:16relationships friendship is incredibly
56:18important I think sharing common values
56:20but also common loves of some sort it
56:22could be you know hiking um it could be
56:26soccer could be whatever but having
56:27something that you kind of enjoy as a
56:29couple doing together um and then also
56:32kind of sharing commitment to to
56:33lifelong marriage I mean we know that
56:35people have this commitment to to
56:37marriage are more likely to flourish so
56:39kind of recognizing it's not just s of
56:40being married it's kind of appreciating
56:42that marriage itself matters as an
56:44institution is is helpful and then for
56:47folks who are married I would say kind
56:49of I could talk about five pillars in
56:50the book I talk about communion kind of
56:52the sense that it's about we before me
56:54you know fostering that sense of
56:55communion in your marriage date nights
56:58for instance are incredibly important
56:59especially once you have kids to kind of
57:00have about time as a couple to Foster
57:02that communion the second thing is is
57:04children so with 5c's children kind of
57:06appreciating that your marriage matters
57:08not just for you but also for your kids
57:10and trying to work to make your marriage
57:13strong for the sake of your children
57:15that doesn't mean helicoptering them but
57:16it just means that you kind of
57:17appreciate that you're in this as a
57:19couple together not just for your sake
57:22and his sake or her sake but for uh the
57:25sake of your children the f have them
57:26the third se's commitment kind of
57:28recognizing that that commitment to
57:29maral permanence and to Fidelity are the
57:32foundations for strong marriages we see
57:35in the research that commitment in
57:37general is the number one predictor of
57:40marital quality for Americans you know
57:42so keeping that that that in mind you
57:45know kind of knowing that your spouse
57:47really puts you first um the for SE is
57:51Cash um kind of having a regul of cash
57:54mean Money Matters and we talked before
57:57about and that's you know especially the
58:00role of the husband um that's not BC but
58:02it's true um and the the fifth seiz
58:04Community being surrounded by a
58:06community that honors your marriage and
58:08honors family and challenges you to be a
58:10better husband a better wife a better
58:12father better mother you know so if
58:14you're surrounding yourself with people
58:15who are really intentional about being
58:17good husbands good wives good Fathers
58:19good Mothers um you're much more likely
58:21the flourish we know that birds of the
58:23feather flock together and so when it
58:25comes to divorce for instance to kind of
58:27WRA this thing up um like one of the
58:29best predictors of of divorce is having
58:31a close sibling or a close friend get
58:34divorced one of the best Riches of
58:36avoiding divorce is having a family you
58:39know that has steered clear of divorce
58:40and having friends that steer clear of
58:42divorce because we tend to take cues you
58:46know from our friends and family and so
58:49if you've seen a friend kind of respond
58:51to a challenge in their marriage by
58:53getting divorced you're probably going
58:55to get divorced or consider getting
58:58divorced when you're experiencing a
58:59challenge by contous if see a friend
59:01kind of navigate a difficult chapter in
59:02their marriage by working with their
59:05spouse you know to get through this
59:07difficult chapter when you face that
59:09difficulty in your marriage you're going
59:10to kind of um do the same so again the
59:12community piece is important and people
59:15should be intentional about kind of
59:16looking for a community that's going to
59:17support their marriage and their kids
59:20and their kind of their their way of
59:22life as a family excellent advice
59:24everybody pre-order get get married get
59:26get married it's a sounds like it's
59:28going to be a phenomenal phenomenal book
59:30where can people find your work Brad um
59:32so family studies is a great place for
59:35um my work and then I'm on Twitter as
59:37well Brad Willcox ifs he's a great
59:39Twitter follow check him out great thank
59:41you thanks so much Brad
59:45[Music]

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