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The Jeffrey Deskovic Interview: the Failure of our Justice System without Apology... — Transcript

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0:02welcome everyone to the after the gate
0:05podcast your number one source for
0:08authentic stories interviews and
0:11educational content surrounding the
0:13justice system incarceration and more
0:17come along with us now as we give you a
0:20glimpse before and after the gate
0:25[Music]
0:34yo yo yo what's up everybody and welcome
0:36to the after the gate podcast your
0:38One-Stop shop for all of our needs with
0:41prison uh experiences and just tapping
0:44into that world the Unseen World of um
0:47incarceration the justice system and
0:49more and tonight we have an amazing
0:51amazing story a guest um Jeffrey
0:54deskovic and we're going to be talking
0:56to him a little bit about his story
0:57sharing his experience and what he's
0:59been through
1:00um but to jump things off I'll let you
1:02take over Jeffrey can you uh tell us
1:04your name age and location
1:05my name is Jeffrey deskovic and I am
1:09presently 48 years old and I am located
1:13in the Bronx in New York
1:15very nice very nice so Jeffrey what was
1:18what was childhood growing up for you
1:20like
1:21um did you grow up in the Bronx and and
1:23what was adolescent like up until the
1:26point before you would become
1:27incarcerated
1:29I grew up actually in peakskill which is
1:31in Westchester County so that's actually
1:3450 minutes north of the Bronx growing up
1:38um I had I was I think I was kind of
1:40like an All-American kid I mean I I was
1:44very active I mean there were a lot of
1:45kids in the in the department complex
1:48that I grew up in at Big skill I was one
1:50of the main two kids and uh usually
1:53whatever I would suggest would generally
1:55be what we would do if we're gonna play
1:57Monopoly play kickball play stickball
1:59play basketball ride bikes you know play
2:02video games
2:04um but that was kind of my life after
2:05school my life in school was uh
2:08different I had actually skipped a grade
2:10I skipped first grade and so the kids
2:12that I was on in high school with they
2:15were all a little bit older than me so
2:18in high school I was it was not the same
2:20group of kids and I was kind of quiet
2:23until myself and I didn't play a lot of
2:25organized Sports and I was kind of like
2:27on the fringes of the society and I
2:30didn't quite fit in and that'll later
2:32take on a prominent role in um what
2:34everything wound up happening to me
2:36yeah yeah so for everybody
2:39um everybody listening right now uh
2:42Jeffrey has a national story that's
2:45captured very very many people and and
2:48showcases the Injustice in the justice
2:51system incarceration and just how
2:54the world is handled today with court
2:57systems can you tell us a little bit
2:59Jeffrey of what what was the the leading
3:02up days
3:03um to the point where this is the
3:05trouble I'm in and this is the um the
3:07trouble they're saying I'm in and the
3:09incarceration that's going to lead to
3:10what was like those that week that led
3:13up to it
3:14so November 15th was the day that a high
3:18school classmate named Angela Correa
3:20disappeared and
3:23uh she went she um was she one of her
3:25classes was a photography class the
3:27professor assigned uh all the students
3:30to shoot some pictures of foliage he
3:32instituted a buddy system whereby he
3:35beared the female students up with the
3:37male student
3:38and
3:40uh so Angela went to her walked home
3:44with her sister her sister went to the
3:46restroom and when she came out Angela
3:48had left she decided to go to the park
3:50to take these photos uh without a sister
3:53this was the first time that she ever
3:55really went anywhere as I understood and
3:58as I understand it without her sister or
4:00her parents and the male student That
4:03was supposed to accompany her to take
4:06the pictures played hooky on the
4:08assignment so she was essentially in the
4:10park by by herself
4:13oh she went missing she didn't she you
4:15know she her body um there was news
4:18coverage you know there was like an
4:20announcement on the PA system asking
4:22anybody any kids if they knew what she
4:24was or articles in the newspaper and
4:28um you know ultimately her body was
4:30found a couple of days later naked from
4:33the waist down
4:34and you know there hadn't really been a
4:37murder in Peak Skill uh for quite a long
4:40time so this created an atmosphere a
4:43fear rumor paranoia parents were
4:45concerned with their own safety safety
4:47of their children
4:48and there were Town Hall meetings that
4:51would be parents were picking their kids
4:53driving their kids to school picking
4:54them back up bringing them straight home
4:56they were Town Hall meetings held safety
4:59tips progress on Investigation
5:01uh that kind of thing
5:04so in the course of the police
5:06investigation they interviewed a lot of
5:08students from the school
5:09and some of them told the police they
5:11might want to speak to me because I was
5:13quiet I didn't quite fit in as I covered
5:16before
5:17I guess their thought was that people
5:19that are loners that don't quite fit in
5:21commit in this crimes I guess that's the
5:23underlying theory of that
5:26um so that put me on their radar
5:28and then from there
5:30uh
5:32I was I was a sensitive teenager this
5:35was my first real brush with death and
5:37it did have emotional impact on me I
5:40went through the Wake multiple times I
5:42went to the burial went to church
5:44service then again I wasn't all that
5:46different from anyone else in the small
5:48city of Peekskill in Westchester County
5:50New York which population was
5:52approximately 25 000 people this really
5:54shook up the whole city to the point
5:56that there were free mental health
5:57services offered to anyone who wanted it
6:00and many people attended multiple week
6:02sessions and many people were emotional
6:04so in that aspect of it I wasn't really
6:07all that different
6:08nonetheless the police thought that my
6:11emotional reaction being
6:12disproportionate to what my actual
6:14relationship with the victim was they
6:16thought that that was suspicious
6:19yeah so yeah so uh because when I break
6:23in and ask something there or so I um so
6:26with your relationship with uh so I I
6:29was just reading a couple of things
6:31Jeffrey they had said
6:33um I'm not sure if this is true you
6:34could elaborate was she your childhood
6:36sweetheart just growing up no she was
6:39not she was she was in two of my classes
6:42as a freshman one is a sophomore I knew
6:44her name she knew mine that was really
6:47the extent of it I mean we were not even
6:48really on a high buy basis yep but the
6:52pay scale police not being all that
6:55uh used to investigating homicides they
6:58got a psychological profile from the
7:01NYPD which purported to have the
7:04psychological characteristics of the
7:06actual perpetrator and I had them as
7:09Fortune of matching that so you might
7:12you might think of that as a type of
7:13reinforcing Factor so all those three
7:16things okay the kids they wrote the
7:20sentimentality and the profile that all
7:24answers the question about how did I
7:26come to be on the police radar in the
7:28first place
7:30so from there the police the police I
7:33had six weeks of interaction with the
7:35Peak Skill police
7:37uh half the time they would talk to me
7:39like I was a suspect
7:41and when they were pushed too hard not
7:43get afraid and I'd want to get away from
7:45them
7:46they would switch things up and they
7:49developed this Jeff this Jeff as a
7:52junior detective helper theme
7:55so look the kids want to talk freely
7:57around us they're well around you let us
7:59know if you hear anything
8:01stop in from time to time
8:03it asks opinion questions and
8:05congratulate me that my opinion was
8:07correct
8:08and that intersected with what the
8:10career was that I wanted to have before
8:12I was a teenager I fantasized about
8:14being law enforcement when I grew up so
8:16Jefferson's Junior detective helper
8:18theme appealed to me in that that aspect
8:22of it and then the fact that came from a
8:25single parent household did also uh that
8:27intersected with the good cup bad cop in
8:30which you know what officer pretended to
8:32be my friend and I began to look at him
8:34as a father figure
8:36So eventually they got me to agree to
8:39take a lie detector test they said look
8:41we got some no information in the police
8:43file we want to share that with you
8:45that's going to allow you to be more
8:47helpful to us first though we want you
8:50to take and pass a polygraph
8:53so the next day rather than report to
8:55the school I went to the police station
8:57for the test I expected it would be at
8:59the police station because that's where
9:02I had heard through the rumor mill that
9:03other people have been polygraphed
9:05because it was a school day my mother
9:07and grandmother thought I was in school
9:09they had no idea I was in police custody
9:11so they didn't call around looking for
9:14me or trying to help me as far as they
9:15knew everything was okay
9:17okay
9:18and from the police actually drove me 40
9:22minutes away by car across county lines
9:25from Westchester to Putnam County
9:29specifically the town of Brewster which
9:32meant that I couldn't leave on my own
9:33anymore I was dependent on the police
9:36I didn't have an attorney president
9:38didn't give me anything to eat the whole
9:40time I was there
9:42a polygraph there was three cops that
9:45came with me from Peekskill but it was
9:47the polygraphics also it was a Putnam
9:50County Sheriff's investigator
9:53he was pretending he was dressed like a
9:55civilian he never identified himself as
9:57a cop
9:58so he never Read Me My Rights he gave me
10:01a four-page brochure which explained how
10:03the polygraph worked but it had a lot of
10:06big words in it that I didn't understand
10:07but then I figured well I'm here to help
10:10the police so what does it matter
10:13let's just get on with it from there he
10:16put me in a small room he gave me
10:19countless cups of coffee I think to get
10:21me nervous and then he launched in it
10:25with then he wired me up to the machine
10:26and he launched into his third degree
10:28tactics
10:29so he raised his voice at me he invaded
10:33my personal space he kept asking me the
10:36same questions over and over again
10:39and he kept that up for six and a half
10:41to seven hours
10:42towards the end yeah and my fear my fear
10:46kept increasing in proportion to the
10:48time
10:49and uh eventually he uh he said what do
10:54you mean you didn't do it you just told
10:55me through the test that you did commit
10:58to Crime we just want you to verbally
11:00confirm it and that really shot my fear
11:03through the roof and then the cop that
11:05had been pretending to be my friend he
11:08came in the room and told me that the
11:10other officers were going to harm me he
11:12was holding them off he couldn't do so
11:14any longer you have to help yourself
11:17look just tell them what they want to
11:19hear you go home after this you're not
11:22going to be arrested
11:24so being young naive frightened 16 years
11:28old I wasn't thinking about the long
11:30term
11:31I was only thinking about my safety in
11:34the moment I wasn't fear of my life the
11:36fact that I didn't know where I was and
11:38no one else did either a little quite
11:40large
11:41I was overwhelmed emotionally and
11:43psychologically
11:45then there was a possibility of harm
11:47there was this false life preserver that
11:50he threw me and so I decided to make up
11:54a story based on the information that
11:57they had given me that day and the six
11:59weeks run up to everything
12:01by the time interrogation finished
12:05I had collapsed on the floor in a fetal
12:07position I was crying uncontrollably
12:10obviously I was arrested the
12:13interrogation was not videotaped it was
12:16not audio taped there was no sign
12:17confession it was just the cops word for
12:20it
12:21and later on when I went to trial
12:24they left the threatened false promise
12:27out of their story
12:29so that was how I was arrested
12:32Jesus for everybody listening and just
12:36hearing that Jeffrey that that it like
12:38hurts my soul to think that being that
12:41young of a kid taken away from all of
12:44comfortability and brought into like you
12:46said to a world and being threatened by
12:47by individuals that you think are
12:49supposed to protect you and help you and
12:51and they're treating you like that that
12:53that hurts my soul that you've been
12:55through that man
12:57um so Jeffrey from that point after the
13:00polygraph you were arrested like this
13:03was not on had you spoken to your mother
13:06you said that you're a single single
13:08parent home had you spoken to your
13:10parent at all leading up to those days
13:13and was there ever that conversation
13:14like like why do they keep asking me why
13:17are they so close to me why are they was
13:20that ever a conversation with you and
13:21your parents or it was just like we
13:23don't think this could happen like some
13:25it's not me it's you know it was that
13:28something that ever came up between you
13:29guys
13:32um I guess the short answer is no uh to
13:36put a little color to it I had one
13:38conversation with my mother after the
13:40first police encounter
13:42um she didn't want me to speak to the
13:44police any further
13:46she never really articulated to me a
13:48clear reason why
13:50yeah I was 16 years old and I was at
13:53that stage of life for Lonnie a lot of
13:55kids including me but not limited to me
13:57you know was struggling for Independence
13:59now you know and that led to some
14:01conflict so my relationship with my
14:03mother was not in the best possible
14:05position and at that age I mean most of
14:08us think that we know better than our
14:10parents and I was no different so I
14:13didn't understand what could possibly
14:14happen you know innocent I'm innocent I
14:18don't know anything about the crime but
14:20then they're also telling me that they
14:22want my they need my help so I I kept
14:27the rest of my interactions with the
14:30police from my mother she didn't know
14:32that I was having the interactions that
14:34she only knew about the one
14:36yeah yeah for the police to be doing all
14:39of that that's illegal correct they
14:41can't have any contact no no it's not
14:43it's not correct at 16 years old it is
14:46legal
14:47you're considered you're considered to
14:49be an adult for purposes of being able
14:52to waive your rights and speak to the
14:53police without without a parent or an
14:56attorney being present yeah what was
14:58illegal about what they did was the
15:00threat and false promise that was
15:02illegal but everything else they did was
15:04lead
15:05okay okay Jeffrey so from that point of
15:09like okay I'm getting arrested what was
15:13the process
15:14um and you you can give it you know
15:15however short you like but what was that
15:17process from like did you go immediately
15:19to adult County Jail
15:22um and then trial played out for however
15:24long and then is that how it played out
15:27you went right to the county jail I went
15:29right to the county jail I ended up
15:31getting bailed out after 35 days my
15:34mother had a businessman as a boyfriend
15:36and you know he had some property and he
15:39had a bank account and so a long story
15:41short he bailed me out otherwise I would
15:43have stayed in the jail the bail was
15:45fifty thousand dollars
15:48um so but
15:50um and just legally from that point
15:52forward though I mean results of a DNA
15:55test came in from the FBI lab which
15:57showed that cement found in the victim
15:59didn't match me uh there was head and
16:02pubic hairs found on the victim which
16:06were determined to be from [ __ ] and
16:08negroid origin which I'm pretty much as
16:12white as you can get
16:14um but the prosecutor countered that he
16:17got the medical examiner to commit fraud
16:20when the DNA didn't match me he suddenly
16:22said that he remembered that he forgot
16:25to document medical evidence that he
16:28claimed uh showed that the victim had
16:31been promiscuous and that that was and
16:34that opened the door for the prosecutor
16:36to claim well that was how the DNA
16:38didn't match me and yet I was guilty
16:40that she had slept with somebody else
16:43before I murdered and raped her
16:45but that was all that was all a lie uh
16:48he took it a step further and he named
16:51another youth by name but he claimed it
16:53slept with the victim
16:55but he never had that person testify to
16:58that he never had a DNA sample extracted
17:02he just made an unsupported argument to
17:05the jury and when the hair is not
17:07matching me he claimed that the hairs
17:10must have come from the Vietnamese
17:11medical examiner and his
17:13African-American
17:15assistant
17:16but once again he didn't he didn't
17:19actually
17:21have testing done to prove that he just
17:24threw the suggestion in the air
17:27and he got away with that because
17:30firstly the victim's family was not
17:32coming to court so they had no idea that
17:35her reputation was being trashed like
17:37that it was all the lie she actually
17:39died a virgin As I understood it
17:42um so they were willing to wreck her
17:44reputation like it wasn't enough that
17:45she was murdered and raped let's let's
17:47make a war out of her also and
17:50and then um my defense attorney had a
17:53public defender
17:55and he essentially did not defend me in
17:58every interviewed a call as a witness my
18:01alibi I was actually playing with
18:02football when the crime happened
18:04uh he never he never explained the jury
18:07the significance of the DNA not matching
18:10me he never used that to challenge the
18:13truthfulness of the confession he rarely
18:15met with me he did not he literally did
18:18not cross-examine the medical examiner
18:20he never asked him one question to try
18:22to discredit him
18:24and he should have never represented me
18:28because of a conflict of interest
18:30there's other youth that the prosecution
18:32was falsely saying and slept with the
18:34victim
18:35was represented by another member of
18:38that same public defender office and
18:40specifically by the lawyer was supposed
18:42to be supervising him in my case
18:45that conflict prevented the defense
18:49from calling him as a witness it
18:51prevented the defense from asking him
18:53for a sample
18:55and when you defend a case that is a
18:58false confession
19:00you have to answer the confession you
19:02have to explain it you have to disprove
19:05it you got to bring it all together in
19:07your closing argument
19:09but he never did that
19:11sometimes he told he argued to the jury
19:13the confession never happened at all
19:15other times he was saying it happened
19:18but it was false and still other times
19:20he was arguing that it was coerced so by
19:23taking this
19:26I'm just gonna throw mud against the
19:28wall and see what sticks type approach
19:31he had to have been standing there with
19:34like no credibility at all in front of
19:36the jury
19:40excuse me oh yeah
19:42um lastly um in a polygraph and
19:45polygraph test results are not
19:46admissible because they're not accurate
19:48but the trial judge ruled that well
19:51because the false confession happened in
19:54the course of the polygraph he came up
19:56with a back door rule to allow the
19:58polygraphics to testify anyway
20:01he let the polygraphics repeatedly tell
20:03the jury that I failed the polygraph
20:05which was that I was lying when I denied
20:08involvement which obviously was anybody
20:11could see that that would be prejudicial
20:13and the the victims close including the
20:17the bra
20:18had been admitted into evidence and the
20:22jury has to see the bra which was
20:23important because one of the statements
20:25that was coerced out of me I I said that
20:28I ripped the victims brought off
20:31but there's some broads the way that
20:33they're made you can't rip it off of a
20:36body you can't
20:37so when the jury has to see the bra
20:40that's when the judge said
20:43the bra and other clothes were left in
20:46the courtroom over the weekend
20:48and that the janitors apparently thought
20:50it was garbage
20:52so they threw it out and it wasn't
20:54available anymore
20:56and he substituted he substituted a
20:59photo where he said you could almost see
21:01the bra he substituted the photo for the
21:04bra
21:05and lastly and I'll let you get back
21:08again I don't want to talk too long yeah
21:11but the last thing I wanted to mention
21:13is on the third day of the Cherry
21:16deliberation
21:17they sent out a note asking if we don't
21:21come up with the verdict because you
21:23know it has to be unanimous it must be
21:25all 12 one way or the other they wanted
21:28to know well if they if they didn't come
21:30up with a verdict
21:32would they be sequestered over the
21:34Christmas holiday
21:35and the judge said yes you will and so I
21:38later learned that at that point it was
21:4111-1 for a conviction but one of the
21:44jurors thought I was innocent but they
21:46were pressuring him and when that answer
21:49came back that ratcheted the pressure up
21:51and nobody wanted to be there over
21:54Christmas including that juror so he
21:56switched his vote based on that
21:59and so the end result was I was found
22:01guilty I was 17 years old at this point
22:05I was found guilty of a murder and rape
22:08which I did not commit
22:12and man Jeffrey that it's so insane to
22:16just think of the the how many times
22:19somebody could have seen it for what
22:21it's worth and stopped it and saved
22:24saved all those years and saved all that
22:26time and and anguish and stress
22:29when when the trial was concluded
22:33um I'm sure that was the biggest shock
22:35to your life and the biggest shock to
22:36your families what was it what was it
22:39like from that moment you you were
22:41you're about to enter a prison facility
22:43and you're you're about to be sent off
22:45to somewhere for something you clearly
22:47didn't do and you know this in your head
22:48what what was going through your head
22:51with your your family like thinking back
22:54like do they do they trust me that I
22:55didn't do it you know does
22:57all these fingers are pointing at you
23:00trying to say that you did something
23:01that you didn't do what was that like
23:03leading straight into prison like what
23:05was your mentality what was your
23:06thinking
23:07I was I was in shock like I couldn't
23:11believe my ears when I heard you know
23:13guilty and I'm thinking well wait wait
23:15wait a minute now maybe I didn't hear
23:18the word not because they couldn't have
23:19just said Guilty by itself because yeah
23:22I'm innocent and only the guilty are
23:25convicted you know so that went through
23:27my head and once it was clear that I
23:30hadn't misered anything uh it was kind
23:32of like a nightmarish alternative
23:34reality alternate because I I thought
23:36only the guilty were found guilty
23:39um that was obviously taken into custody
23:41I was remanded immediately
23:43and I didn't know what was going to
23:45happen then I I remember
23:48getting my wallet and a few items to one
23:52of the Court officers
23:54he you know it's kind of like mementos
23:56for him to give to my
23:58here's my family I didn't know what was
24:00gonna happen to me
24:02um I I was I had been charged to try it
24:04as an adult
24:05and I I I was um the data sentencing I
24:10was given her adult sentence I was sent
24:12to 15 to life you know I begged the
24:14judge to overturn the verdict because I
24:16was innocent and I referenced the DNA
24:19uh support my contention and he told me
24:22on the record maybe you are innocent
24:25but that didn't lead him to overturn the
24:27conviction which he could have done
24:29instead of sentencing me all he had to
24:31do was reverse any of the rulings he
24:34made against me including the evidence
24:36issue that I laid out before
24:38but he took the easy way out
24:41and then I was sent to Elmira
24:43Correctional Facility which is a men's
24:46Maximum Security Prison in New York
24:49now um Jeffrey I I know you spoke a
24:52little bit about your adolescence but
24:53you never I mean you've never had a
24:55ticket you've never had police
24:57interaction up into that point no
25:00correct correct nothing nothing wrong so
25:03this was the first um first the first
25:05run-in with the law
25:07um when you were finally transferred
25:09from County jail and you said you went
25:11to the Almira like
25:13I can only imagine for everybody
25:15listening
25:16um max custody is is no joke and
25:19especially for somebody that's never
25:21been in trouble never been involved with
25:23that what was it like stepping through
25:25those doors of Elmira and and yeah yeah
25:28it was yeah it was I was frankly
25:31frightened I was 17 years old I've been
25:33a Maximum Security Prison with fully
25:35formed adults many of whom are guilty of
25:38serious violent crimes and you know not
25:41not everybody is sorry for what they did
25:43or is rehabilitated there's quite a few
25:45that are still knee-deep into the
25:47criminality you know and that's a
25:49definite segment of the population not
25:51not everybody but but you know a
25:53significant amount
25:54uh but but uh I want to also mention I
25:57had a bullseye at my back because I had
26:00been convicted of the rape along with
26:02the murder which as you know uh anyone
26:05convicted of a sex offense that could be
26:07a motivation uh to the other prisoners
26:10to assault or cut you or kill you even
26:13uh so I was always afraid that that
26:16somebody would discover what I was
26:18incarcerated for
26:20um the guards were obstacles you know
26:22some were professional did their job but
26:24a lot of them came to work and took out
26:26all their frustrations on the prisoners
26:28and some of the guards were dangerous
26:30and nobody ever bothered to reel them in
26:32not their co-workers or the other
26:35um the soup people were supposed to be
26:36supervising uh food was terrible
26:39sometimes it was not fully cooked other
26:41times it was burned I had to keep
26:44fighting off feelings of hopelessness
26:46helplessness thoughts of giving up
26:48suicidal ideation
26:51um there was plenty of violence in
26:52Elmira there was you know maybe three or
26:54four stabbings or cuttings every day
26:56there was a lot of violence that didn't
26:58involve weapons there was a lot of gang
27:00activity so cumulatively there was a
27:03general atmosphere of violence and
27:04adrenaline that for immunity air I had
27:07to be alerted all at all times ready to
27:10defend yourself at the drop of a dime
27:13which I got in trouble for maybe like
27:15five or six times I was beat up in a
27:18force of my incarceration but so far as
27:21the prison Administration was concerned
27:23uh because I was attempting to fight
27:25back and that obviously meant that I was
27:27fighting uh almost lost my life once I
27:30got hit multiple times in the side of my
27:32head with uh a 10 pound uh weight plate
27:37um
27:39so
27:40that's I mean I tried to I took
27:44advantage of what the programs they had
27:45I got GED I got Associates I completed a
27:48year of schooling towards the bachelor's
27:50but then of course they cut they took
27:52that from me when they cut the funding
27:54of college education for prisoners I I
27:57completed a lot of vocational trades but
28:01you know the curriculum was obsolete
28:03many years before I stepped into the
28:05program so it kept me busy but I wanted
28:08a career in any of those trades when I
28:10came home I would essentially start the
28:12same places if I didn't take the trade
28:14in the first place my mother used to
28:17come see me once a month but the last
28:20four five to six years I would I would
28:23see her once every six months my
28:25grandmother passed away while I was
28:27wrongfully incarcerated uh my brother
28:29came to see me three times in 16 years
28:32not not at all in the last decade uh
28:35kids on the school bus used to tell him
28:37that his brother was a rapist they'd say
28:38other mean things and they would try to
28:40hit him and snapping with pencils and
28:42eventually he dropped out of school
28:45so everybody was impacted by my wrongful
28:47conviction as the point that I'm trying
28:49to get at and ultimately I went to the
28:52parole board where because I maintained
28:55my innocence rather than Express remorse
28:57and take responsibility I got turned
28:59down for parole
29:01so that meant that I had to do more time
29:04on top of the 15 years that I just
29:06served and told me to do another two and
29:08come back and see them
29:09but I was eventually exonerated I got
29:12the Innocence Project to help me they
29:15took my case
29:16and that was the first key the second
29:19key was um
29:21Janine Barrow who was the Westchester
29:22D.A when I
29:24after I was convicted but before my
29:26first appeal so she fought me in seven
29:29appeals including blocking me from
29:31getting further DNA testing
29:35she left office
29:37and thirdly um we got lucky that the
29:39actual perpetrators DNA was in the data
29:43Bank the data bank had been created so
29:45we went from being able to say that it
29:47didn't match me to saying who it did
29:50match and that individual
29:53DNA was only in the data bank because he
29:56killed a second victim three and a half
29:58years later after killing the victim in
30:00my case uh she was a school teacher and
30:03had two children so on September 20th
30:062006 a conviction was overturned I was
30:09released I reported back to court
30:13November 2nd 2006 at which point all the
30:16charges were dismissed against being
30:19actual innocence grounds the actual
30:21perpetrator was arrested and convicted
30:25and that was later a report issued by
30:28four experts which detailed all the
30:30fault lines at which the system broke
30:32down which resulted in my being
30:35um
30:36falsely accused wrongfully convicted and
30:39spending 16 years of prison
30:42and man that is so so crazy Jeffrey
30:46um so Jeffrey from from the point of you
30:50when you when you know you're going to
30:52get out of prison
30:54um and you know it's coming when was
30:56that inside prison how when did you know
30:58like the day the day
31:01the day before you got out yes my
31:05attorney paid me a surprise visit she
31:08told me the items had been tested and
31:10I'm like what are you talking about
31:11they're not supposed to be tested for
31:13another month he's like no no they moved
31:15it up you're going home tomorrow
31:18and I said no I'm not I'm not I'm not
31:20going home tomorrow don't
31:22you know please I've been through enough
31:24don't don't play with me like that then
31:26we went back and forth for you know
31:28three times and it took I had the three
31:30and a half hour mental paralysis that I
31:33you know and my mind was just spinning
31:34and one thought had nothing to do with
31:37the next and none of it had anything to
31:39do with what the news had gotten every
31:41now every
31:43every so often the lawyer
31:45broke it and said well are you ready to
31:48talk about tomorrow
31:49have it no no we're not what just I'm
31:52not talking about tomorrow keep that
31:54away from me not going home
31:56no not not entertaining that not anymore
32:00right but but maintain what what what
32:02made it real was when she said look
32:04there's only a little bit of time left
32:07uh on the visit and I have to get inside
32:10your clothing sizes so a suit can be
32:12obtained there's a lot to do with the
32:14media
32:15so that made it real and I felt better
32:19for five minutes for five minutes and
32:22then for five minutes and then a
32:25different fear came in my head which was
32:27that something was gonna happen if
32:29between then and the next day that the
32:32D.A was gonna change her mind and I was
32:34they were going to do what they always
32:36did which was fighting when yeah yeah
32:38yeah
32:40that that's that sucks to hear that
32:44you're being you know what I mean you're
32:45being told from an attorney uh you're
32:47you're coming home and and to think like
32:50no I can't trust this I can't trust I
32:52can't even trust what's happened for the
32:54last 16 years of my life
32:57so that's exactly yeah keeping in mind I
32:59was wrongfully convicted then I lost
33:02seven appeals and then I went to the
33:04parole board it was turned down there so
33:06the sum total of all that had to do with
33:08my that was what led up to my disbelief
33:12distrust in in the system and I I you
33:16know every time one of those things
33:17happened it was like I was wrongfully
33:19convicted all over again you become
33:20afraid to try to believe or trust that
33:23that all that hurts
33:27I believe it with the parole board and
33:31you coming in front of them
33:33they they wanted that admit admittance
33:36of your guilt right they wanted you to
33:38admit and there was no other there
33:40wasn't any option of that you accepted
33:43them accepting your innocence or your
33:45claim of Innocence no there wasn't no I
33:47I I tried to raise the issue verbally
33:51several times but they shut that down uh
33:54in preparation of that I sent them
33:58excerpts of legal documents showing
34:01where the DNA didn't match me they
34:04acknowledged receiving it but it did not
34:07make a difference it didn't make a
34:09difference yeah a lot of the time with
34:12individuals that are still claiming
34:13innocence
34:14um that's that's what I hear a lot is is
34:16from prisoners saying they don't want to
34:19hear me Sam innocent uh at all they they
34:22want to hear what I did and what I'm
34:23owning up to and and it's sad that
34:25they're not there to entertain that
34:27there's an injustice or a misstep in the
34:30court proceedings or anything at all
34:32they just think it's 100 right that
34:34you're there and you're serving the time
34:35right and then they hold the Innocence
34:38assertion against you I mean you know
34:40yeah I think the parole board you know
34:43look if there's a reason to think
34:44someone's innocent then they should
34:46entertain that I mean they can't
34:47overturn the conviction but they
34:49certainly can keep that in mind in
34:51deciding to Grant somebody parole they
34:53shouldn't have been there in the first
34:54place I mean can you end the suffering
34:56at least
34:58rate of part of it at least can you do
35:00what's you know there I mean don't don't
35:03be indifferent to it I mean worse yet
35:05don't don't hold it against me but
35:06that's what they do yeah yeah
35:10when when you were preparing for your
35:12re-entry into society right this is 16
35:14years this is this is intense you're
35:17about to get out you're about to put on
35:19a suit for the first time you're gonna
35:20have cameras all these things in your
35:23face Jeffrey what what prepared you
35:25mentally to get out and and start life
35:29over because how old were you when you
35:31got released for your exaggeration 32 30
35:3432 so 17 to 32 and what what was it like
35:39walking out of those Gates and and how
35:41did that feel yeah it felt it felt
35:44surreal I mean my first words when it
35:46was time to speak to the media and by
35:48the way I had not contemplated speaking
35:50to the media ahead of time I was told
35:52that I would have that chance in the
35:53courtroom but I didn't have time to
35:55think about it like as in the overnight
35:58um my first words were is this really
36:01happening like I I for a second I I
36:04thought okay I I finally went and did it
36:06right I I finally managed to lose my
36:08mind and I'm gonna wake up but I'm still
36:11gonna see the prison wall on the cell
36:12bars and the guards and every other
36:14queue to let me know I'm in prison
36:17so that was surreal uh everything I ever
36:20wanted to say to the media but couldn't
36:22get anyone to hear me say I I said
36:26so I spoke for two two and a half hours
36:28off the cuff really yeah yeah and that
36:32kind of um Turned a lot uh that kind of
36:35um
36:36set off a light bulb
36:39and it led me down and I I thought that
36:42you know hey I can be part of the
36:43Innocence movement without necessarily
36:45being a lawyer so I started
36:48um speaking across the country I was
36:50doing media interviews to hope that the
36:52trading privacy in exchange for hoping
36:55that the further the policy changes I've
36:57started meeting with the elected
36:59officials became a weekly columnist
37:02um I got a I did that for five years I
37:04had a scholarship from Mercy College to
37:07finish the bachelor's degree
37:09and um I
37:11I also got wound up getting a master's
37:13degree but at the same but and it was
37:16that but it was very difficult for those
37:18five years I was doing the advocacy and
37:19doing the education it was
37:21simultaneously very difficult because I
37:23was released with nothing I was always
37:25passed over for gainful employment
37:28so I was making money doing speaking
37:30engagements but that's not consistent I
37:32was making money as a columnist but it
37:34was for a weekly paper so they wanted
37:35one article a week
37:37so I didn't have very much money coming
37:39in
37:41so I lacks the ability of housing I
37:43bounced around from place to place at
37:45one point because in a couple weeks from
37:47a homeless shelter but Mercy College let
37:49me live on campus and they went beyond a
37:52scholarship
37:53the the world was different internet GPS
37:57cell phones hadn't been created
37:59technology the technology was different
38:01culture was different neighborhoods
38:03looked different it was very lonely I I
38:06had the psychological after effects of
38:08BTSD panic attacks anxiety uh fear on
38:12seeing law enforcement feeling of having
38:15been frozen in time so I was released
38:17when I was 32 but I felt like I was 17.
38:21so all those things it was particularly
38:24challenging for me because I had been
38:26incarcerated when I was 17 so I had
38:28never lived on my own before never had a
38:31job never wrote a check never went
38:33shopping never balanced the budget never
38:36had a driver's license so all those
38:38things were difficult for me
38:41um but uh you know I got through and
38:44then after about five years I was
38:46finally financially compensated and I I
38:49am
38:50I I
38:52well I started a master's degree in 2009
38:55and so uh I got compensated before I
38:58finished
38:59but um I got the Master's Degree because
39:01I then my thesis was written on one for
39:04conviction course in reform because I
39:05thought that would make me a better
39:06advocate
39:08I use some of the money to start the
39:10Jeffrey deskovic foundation for justice
39:11which would continue the work I did as
39:14an individual but you know from a team
39:16from a team perspective with you know a
39:19non-profit but would have the uh would
39:22have the
39:24exaggerating component which I couldn't
39:26do on my own
39:27so uh since then we've um
39:31I want to say we've got 11 people home
39:33except that by the possibly by the time
39:36this airs it'll be number 12 the myself
39:39and uh Oscar Michelin uh Advisory Board
39:43member of the foundation
39:45um
39:46they just caught Andre Brown's
39:48conviction overturned after 22 years in
39:50prison so there's going to be a court
39:52hearing tomorrow to determine if the
39:54judge is going to order him a release
39:56him on bail and the prosecution will
39:59decide if they're going to retry or
40:01appeal but the convictions are returned
40:04but we did that with the foundation
40:06it'll be it will be Godwin will be 12 uh
40:09people to help pass Three Laws aim to
40:12preventing wrongful conviction
40:14um we're part of the bigger Coalition
40:16call that could happen to you which the
40:18foundation which I'm an Advisory Board
40:19member of Foundations part of that so we
40:21have uh helped pass Six additional laws
40:24So currently we have 12 Active cases
40:27we're doing policy work in New York
40:29Pennsylvania and California and I got
40:33tired of being in the front row I got
40:36tired of being in the front row uh in
40:37the court so I went to law school I
40:40became an attorney and pursuited the
40:41dream of concerning others as a lawyer
40:43and you know peers were teetering on the
40:46verge of uh on the vert on the verge of
40:48that and I've entered some of the cases
40:50uh as co-counsel that predated my law
40:54license and some of them are new cases
40:56that I handed I mean I'm mostly second
40:59seating but there are a couple of cases
41:01where I'm the lead attorney and I have
41:03somebody more experienced that's second
41:05seating made for when I need to turn to
41:07them for guidance but look it's not an
41:09ego thing it's a results thing and you
41:12know it's about learning and as a team
41:13and it took many facets coming together
41:15to wrongfully convict people so no one
41:18individual is going to do every single
41:19thing so yeah yeah it takes a team a
41:22whole team effort
41:23yeah yeah yeah that is Jeffrey that's so
41:28so cool that you have fought to create
41:31this this this moving force behind not
41:36allowing another 17 year old kid or you
41:39know that same case that they've walked
41:41into ever happen again
41:42do you do would you say what would you
41:46say on the justice system and and just
41:48Court proceedings in general what's your
41:51overall look of our American justice
41:54system and and and are we are we headed
41:57in the wrong direction currently are are
41:59we trying to put a Band-Aid over
42:01something what's your take on all of
42:03this I believe the justice system as it
42:06is now is definitely broken for sure
42:09um you know I do think that in terms of
42:11wrongful conviction we're going in the
42:13right direction you know their reforms
42:15being passed or being worked on or bills
42:17being introduced all the time
42:19I do think that the speed of
42:21exonerations is well the frequency not
42:24the speed uh you know we're now up to
42:27here
42:28it's like two or three exonerations a
42:30week all over the country it seems so I
42:33believe that each I believe that each
42:34person who makes it out makes it a
42:37little bit easier for the next person
42:38because insofar as the judges
42:42are just a little bit more willing to
42:44consider an innocence claim or newly
42:46discovered evidence claim instead of the
42:48caving into the reflexive rubber stamp
42:51deny so I think that stuff is going in
42:54the right direction
42:56um sometimes not not often enough but
42:58sometimes the prosecution or the police
43:01are cooperating and some of these
43:03exonerations so that's going in the
43:05right direction and that but then
43:07there's too often that's too many times
43:09when that's not the situation
43:11uh to be clear that's maybe like 25 of
43:14the time at least it was some years ago
43:15in the New York Times study that but I
43:17so I think it's getting better in that
43:19area on the other hand
43:22there's many non-innisense uh Justice
43:25Reform issues like I talked about in
43:27conviction which I know you end of your
43:29Geo Works before we did the documentary
43:31conviction about my advocacy work and
43:33life politicsoneration so as I mentioned
43:36it within and that's available on Amazon
43:37Prime for the listeners but when I was
43:40when I was interviewed uh by GN one of
43:44the interviews
43:45and I talked about
43:47you know the the prisoner violence
43:49amongst prisoners and how they didn't
43:51really seem to be much of an effort on
43:53the administration or security to shut
43:55that down and there was verbal abuse of
43:57the guards towards the prisoners and the
44:00Terrible
44:02Medical Care in prison and the food and
44:05you know the need for there to be prison
44:07reform making prison about
44:10Rehabilitation rather than you know the
44:13punishment is supposed to be loss of
44:15Freedom it's not supposed to be to be
44:16administrated while you're there and yet
44:18that goes on I talked about
44:20compassionate or at least and how by the
44:23time the slow uncaring system gets
44:25around to deciding that somebody's
44:28terminally ill let's let them tap the
44:30little dignity by the time they decide
44:32too many times people are dead or ready
44:34or they're dying a day or two so I talk
44:37about that and the need for parole
44:38reform and how you know college
44:42education and prison being extremely low
44:45recidivism rate for college educated
44:47prisoners how that really shouldn't be
44:49viewed as anything other than as a
44:51serious crime fighting tool but yet for
44:54the most part it's not being you know
44:56regreteduced hasn't been implemented as
44:58as yet so I talk about all of those
45:01things all these things Humane
45:03conditions that nobody should be
45:05subjected to and I talk about over
45:08sentencing and how there were people
45:10that I met in prison that were doing 15
45:1320 30 years because the amount of drugs
45:15they had was disappeared rather than
45:17this big so it was a felony not a
45:19misdemeanor and now a lot of them were
45:24doing more time than people in prison
45:27for violent crimes and how that was
45:29backwards to me so I don't really see I
45:33see very little progress
45:36uh on the non-innocence Justice Reform
45:41issues there's very little progress so
45:44on that aspect of it I do think I do
45:47think that uh we're going in the wrong
45:49direction I think there's a lot to learn
45:51from the European prison system uh you
45:55know I can and uh was it the Netherlands
45:57and other places where it's more
45:59rehabilitative it's more Humane it's
46:01more clean and all of that but none of
46:04that means that people are getting away
46:06with crimes it just means that we're
46:08treating people humanely while they're
46:10there which is what we're supposed to do
46:12okay so those are my those are my
46:15overall
46:16um those are my overall thoughts yeah
46:18yeah very good points very good points
46:21and I like that you said Jeffrey that uh
46:24a lot of people don't take that
46:25proactive approach to these individuals
46:28are coming back to our communities so
46:30what what are we doing to help them not
46:33commit crimes what are we are we
46:34providing the necessary tools for a good
46:36successful re-entry that's going to
46:38benefit the community as a whole
46:41um okay Jeffrey so if if you could speak
46:44to somebody that's out there right now
46:46inside a prison cell going through the
46:49same thing that you went through and
46:52they're up against a wall they're
46:54reaching out to the Innocence Project or
46:57or like you said over sentencing of a
46:59crime and they're just trying to remedy
47:02them that their sentence or or to get
47:05back to life what would you have to say
47:06to individuals that have walked those
47:08same footsteps as you and whether it's a
47:11piece of Hope a piece of motivation for
47:13them to not give up on their exoneration
47:16or or just to get back on their feet and
47:19and live a normal life what would you
47:21have to say for them I would say don't
47:23give up if I had given up I I wouldn't
47:26be where I am where I am today I would
47:30say make use of your time I read three
47:32or four non-fiction books every week I
47:35would suggest people do that take
47:37advantage of the limited educational
47:38programs that they are try to I oriented
47:41everything I did to having some kind of
47:44potential usage if and when I return to
47:46society so like I didn't I didn't work
47:50as a porter I didn't I didn't need to
47:52work in the laundry or some other silly
47:55job that in one way or another had to do
47:57with running the prison take education
48:00type programs focus on betterment
48:03and definitely go to the law library and
48:06learn the law that's big on a practical
48:08level I would say
48:11reaching out to people I would you put
48:14together like a short attention grabbing
48:16letter not more than two paragraphs my
48:19name is so and so I'm convicted of this
48:22myself I was wrong with your innocent I
48:24was wrongfully convicted of this this is
48:26the sentence that I was given this is
48:28the evidence against me here's the flaw
48:30in the evidence here's the top three
48:33things in the record that show that in
48:35the point the direction of my innocence
48:38um here's some directions to go in I'm
48:40writing you because I'm asking you to
48:41consider taking my case pro bono so if
48:44someone's over sentencing my name is so
48:46and so I'm convicted of this you know uh
48:49I've been over sentenced by sentences
48:51this it really should have been this I'm
48:54writing you because I'm asking you to
48:56consider taking my case pro bono to try
48:59to help me get a a lesser and more just
49:03uh sex I mean people people write long
49:06letters and that's that's wrong
49:09the longer your letter is the less
49:11likely anyone's going to want to read it
49:13the more documents you send the worse it
49:17is for the sender I mean you make people
49:18want to run away and get away so I was
49:21just one paragraph or two at Max
49:24you know remember you're not you're not
49:27trying to recruit somebody all in one
49:29letter okay all you're trying to do is
49:31get their attention and for them to
49:33think to themselves Well yeah if what
49:36Alex just told me is true then yes I
49:39could see how you might be innocent or
49:41yeah I could see how you might he might
49:43be um over sentenced um let me learn a
49:46little bit more about that that's all
49:48that you're trying to do and when they
49:50reach back out you can give a little bit
49:52more information and you can say hey I
49:55have legal documents to back up what I'm
49:57saying is it okay if I send some to you
50:01I'm respectful of your time that's the
50:03approach to that would be the approach
50:05that would be the approach to take but
50:07you know you gotta you have to not you
50:09have to not give up you have to try to
50:11stay out of trouble because I mean well
50:13you you want to try to do law work or
50:16write letters when you're you know
50:18you're you're keep blocking your cell
50:20you're in solitary confinement you
50:22really want to try to do this when you
50:23don't have access to the phone so if you
50:25need help from someone on the outside to
50:28get you an address where you can even
50:30send them you you want to make it
50:32impossible for what it's terrible enough
50:34you're in prison don't don't don't make
50:37it uh don't make it worse make the best
50:39that you can of of it and so that would
50:42be the way that I would focus and look I
50:44got through things I didn't think about
50:46the 15 in life sentence I I thought well
50:48look I'm doing a year or two and more
50:51and and until the next proceeding you
50:55know yeah yeah so that you just do it
50:57and just do it and do it in increments
51:00um I I learned to play chess as well
51:02it's a thinking person's game and
51:04usually the person who wins particularly
51:06Gamers who could see just the move
51:08further and that's part of life too
51:10that's you know you live your life and
51:12move towards goals
51:15yeah and I would think last piece of
51:17advice I'll give them is uh
51:20you know there is a there is a starting
51:22to be a growing awareness of over
51:24sentencing and I think something will
51:27happen at some point in the future in
51:29terms of sentence modification just from
51:31a policy perspective so it's not all
51:33based only on what the individual can
51:36get done for themselves or someone else
51:38can get done for them if they can
51:40recruit somebody I mean I think that
51:42there is some people are talking about
51:44different policy initiatives uh like
51:47Elder parole which people who view 55
51:50and you've done 15 years and you
51:52considered elderly so therefore you'd be
51:54entitled to a parole board appearance
51:56not a guaranteed release but if that's a
51:59measure that's being worked on as an
52:01example but you know between now and
52:03then you need us to stay out of trouble
52:05you need to accomplish things I mean you
52:08want to try to be a model prisoner then
52:10once it's two once you're once you're
52:12short to go the board once they make the
52:14change that's what you want to shape up
52:16it's going to be too late then No One's
52:19Gonna believe you no one's going to
52:21believe you or even want to listen I
52:23think it's easy yeah easy to sweep under
52:26the rug when they think that there's no
52:27been no reform or change towards the
52:30inner person you know yeah they want to
52:32release people that they can believe in
52:34that are going to come home and that are
52:36going to uh live law abiding lives and
52:39as you know but if you don't give them
52:41reason to believe that you're going to
52:42make it easy to dismiss
52:44yeah yeah Jeffrey um I just have one
52:48last question for you before we before
52:49we sign off were you ever given an
52:52apology from anybody were you ever ever
52:55told us the only person ever apologized
52:59was the actual perpetrator
53:01you know no one else yeah yeah but I
53:04mean but his apology you know he he
53:06managed to mix it with the lie so he
53:08rendered it meaningless I mean he
53:10claimed
53:11that he didn't know anyone was doing
53:13time for his crime or he would have said
53:15something sooner but you know Peekskill
53:17is a small City everybody was talking
53:19about the case there's and it was a high
53:21profile case that would have there would
53:23have been no way that I could conceive
53:25of that he would not have heard it so to
53:27the extent that that would have made you
53:29know would have meant something to me he
53:31managed to do away with that but none of
53:32the actors I got symbolic apologies from
53:35the
53:36judge and from the but I was not the
53:39choice episode of my trial I got a
53:41symbolic apology from the district
53:43attorney but she wasn't the one that
53:45blocked the testing and she wasn't Diego
53:47when I was convicted I got a symbolic
53:50apology from the prosecutor in the
53:51courtroom when the conviction was
53:53overturned but I was but she wasn't the
53:56prosecutor that that was convicted me at
54:00the trial so none of the people involved
54:02were but you know Alex you know my um
54:05we have 10 12 cases on active we have
54:08another seven that are approved but
54:10waiting you know we're not even taking
54:12new applications anymore because you
54:15know we're we're already over capacity
54:17but I know there's a lot of people that
54:19need help and you know my my dream is to
54:23is to one day have a office an office in
54:28each state because I really see this as
54:30a as a national problem and one day in
54:33each country because I really see it as
54:34a global issue
54:36um we have a crowdfunding page on the
54:39website patreon and my crazy dream is
54:41but what if you know what if 75 000
54:44people you know were willing to fight
54:46wrongful convictions by sacrificing
54:48three to five dollars you know a month
54:49on recurring basis that we give close to
54:52a million dollars for example I mean if
54:54we could get 12 people certainly be 12
54:56people home what if we had resources to
54:59Bear we get more attorneys more
55:01paralegals more investigators more
55:04essential personality can increase our
55:06caseload we could work on policy work in
55:09more than just the three states we're
55:11doing and they could make more of a
55:13national impact but that'll be when we
55:15get public support and that's really
55:17been my biggest challenge because I kind
55:20of arrived at where I'm at in life um uh
55:23social economic status wise somewhat
55:26artificially by means of the lawsuit
55:29like if I had made it in business over
55:3110 20 30 years then I'd have a cohort of
55:35people that we all made it and so I
55:37could turn to them and say look this is
55:39what I'm doing it's a track record would
55:41you consider to support this by being
55:43donors but I don't have that so I have
55:45to rely on third parties who can make
55:48introductions to me with people of
55:50capacity and if politicians of both
55:52parties can raise tens of millions
55:54hundreds of millions of dollars races
55:57from what they refer to as small dollar
56:00donors why why not for this issue why
56:03not for getting innocent people out of
56:05prison why not for policy changes aimed
56:08at preventing what happened to me from
56:10happening to others so I hope that
56:12people I know you have a large audience
56:14so Jesus says and I believe her so
56:17hopefully some some of them people have
56:19to make the pitch but look I'm home I'm
56:21free it's not for me it's for other
56:23people I do like 50 60 hours a week the
56:26money doesn't go in my pocket it would
56:28go strictly to freeing people in the
56:30policy work yeah yeah if I could say
56:34anything Jeffrey you are the uh you
56:36you're the right man for the job and
56:38you're the right man to lead everything
56:40that you're speaking about and the goals
56:42for for for hopefully one day that we
56:44have have Justice in in America and and
56:48abroad
56:49um it's been amazing everybody that's
56:51listening please in the uh description
56:54links for this podcast you can connect
56:56with Jeffrey uh all of his foundation
56:59his patreon everybody please please
57:01please take some time go watch that as
57:04well as convicted by Geo words um and
57:06Jeffrey you said that's available on
57:07Amazon correct I did yes and it's on
57:10Amazon so everybody you guys I will put
57:12all that in the description below
57:13Jeffrey I just want to tell you I know
57:16you haven't had the apology but on the
57:18behalf of everybody listening the
57:20justice system I'm sorry man that you
57:22went through everything that you did and
57:25um it's it's you have a golden heart man
57:28it's brought you to a place where you
57:29can offer so much to people that are in
57:32those same steps and it's been a
57:34blessing speaking with you thank you I
57:36met that meant a lot just then that
57:38meant so much Alex and thank you for
57:40having me on sharing your platform and
57:42absolutely all right

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