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The Interview: Is it time for Jersey to talk about periods? — Transcript

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0:05[Music]
0:17in light of a growing amount of support
0:18for menopausal women at work two
0:20advocates for gender equality in the
0:22workplace are calling for a shift of
0:24focus towards other areas of female
0:26Health Women's Health expert CLA Louise
0:28Knox and HR consult Kate Wright think
0:31that it's time for Jersey to start
0:33talking about periods they're calling on
0:35Islanders to start the conversation at
0:37work in order to eliminate the stigma
0:39surrounding female health issues this
0:41they argue is the first step towards
0:43achieving gender equality in the
0:45workplace I'm Jody atam and this is
0:47baywick
0:48[Music]
0:56podcast so today I've got two very
0:59knowledgeable women here to talk to me
1:01about how we can create a more
1:03supportive and inclusive work
1:05environments for women and for those who
1:07have periods in the workplace CLA and
1:10Kate are experts in sort of supporting
1:12women's menstrual Health in the
1:14workplace and in promoting diversity and
1:16inclusion across various organizations
1:19so if you could first introduce yourself
1:21CLA and then Kate if you could tell me a
1:23bit more about your role um in the
1:26island yeah thanks Jordie absolutely so
1:29and cl
1:30I am an
1:32organizational
1:33psychologist and I focus on um female
1:38Health in the workplace and I'm the
1:41founder of a a company called see her
1:43Thrive and we work to really level the
1:48playing field for women and to make work
1:51better more accessible more inclusive
1:54for for people who have periods
1:57menstrual cycles go through menopause
1:59undergo fertility treatment experience
2:02pregnancy loss issues with maternity you
2:04know all of the things that wake and go
2:07through during our our life course um
2:10we're helping to to redress the balance
2:12and make sure
2:13workplaces have the knowledge the
2:15awareness and tools ultimately to to
2:18support their female Workforce and Kate
2:21if you could explain a bit more about
2:23your role within the island and sort of
2:25how you've been taking on some of cla's
2:27ideas to better support workplaces in in
2:30Jersey yeah um yeah I'm I'm Kate I'm an
2:33HR uh consultant and and cultural change
2:36specialist um by profession my passion
2:39project is the diversity Network which
2:42is a a not for for-profit um campaign
2:45group really that that was established
2:47uh six years ago in in Jersey and we aim
2:50to work with um employers to improve uh
2:55diversity and Equity uh inclusion a
2:58sense of belonging in our workplace
3:00but increasingly we have been sort of
3:02working you know across the community in
3:04Jersey on some of these issues and with
3:07government too um and um one of our one
3:11one of our most high-profile campaigns
3:13um was was working with CLA actually and
3:15Julia warrender um a local businesswoman
3:18in in Jersey um the 51 employers um
3:21pledge which is a sort of 14o
3:23framework um that is designed uh for for
3:26any employer of of any industry size um
3:31and to to pick up and and help them it's
3:33a tool to help them create a more
3:35menopause friendly workplace um and and
3:38the response to that locally was was
3:40amazing actually um I think we have uh
3:44around 80 employeers signed up to it
3:46currently thanks so much for sort of
3:48telling me a bit more about all the
3:49amazing amazing work you've been doing
3:52um I've recently become interested in
3:54this topic about learning more about our
3:58hormonal Cycles as women and how these
4:00differ to men and how this impacts our
4:03energy levels and our emotional and
4:06physical well-being at different times
4:07of the month and I never really realize
4:10the extent to which this impacts that us
4:13cuz it's never really taught to us CLA I
4:16wonder if you could tell me a little bit
4:17about the different phases of our of our
4:20menstrual cycle and I've heard this sort
4:21of be referred to as um Seasons so maybe
4:24one of the seasons is out sum and one is
4:26out Autumn I don't know if you've heard
4:28of this framework or if you could tell
4:29us a little bit more about that yeah
4:32absolutely well the first thing I would
4:34say to to anyone listening is think
4:37about what changes you've noticed about
4:40your own cycle and maybe tune into that
4:43and just as a bit of a an experiment for
4:46a couple of Cycles just track how your
4:50mood your energy your productivity
4:53creativity all of those things just
4:56track how they how they change how they
4:59FL uate because one thing that I think
5:02is really really important in this
5:04context is our individual experience and
5:07differences and unfortunately we are
5:11conditioned into thinking there's a
5:13textbook cycle if you like that's 28
5:16days and we have these very neat phases
5:19and we're going to feel one way at one
5:22point and another way at another point
5:24and there are so many individual
5:26differences that that isn't always is
5:29right um so that's one thing I would
5:32encourage everyone to do first of all
5:34but if we just zoom out and generalize a
5:38little bit and look at the menstrual
5:40cycle what's happening um I'm not going
5:42to use Seasons because I don't like that
5:45approach I like to use the proper
5:46language and the proper scientific
5:49terminology um so I'm sorry anybody who
5:52likes using spring summer autumn and
5:54winter but that's not my that's not my
5:57bag at all um so we have have our
6:00menstrual phase which is from day one of
6:04when we have our bleed or our period
6:06whatever you like to call it and many of
6:10us I'm sure will resonate with pain
6:14perhaps feeling low energy being you
6:18know preferring to not do very much
6:21maybe not being as productive as we
6:23usually are during that kind of um phase
6:28in our cycle
6:30and we might want to adapt the way we
6:32are looking after ourselves maybe we
6:34change the way we're
6:36exercising um and just focus on rest
6:39recuperation to do what our body's
6:41telling us to do really then we move on
6:45to our follicular phase which is the
6:48first um or the the stage before
6:52ovulation and in that part of the cycle
6:54we see estrogen gradually increasing or
6:58or a level will start to rise and
7:01estrogen has many
7:04many um benefits and influences in the
7:09body and on the brain it can help us to
7:12feel really good in terms of our mood it
7:15can give us energy um it can make us
7:19more productive studies even show that
7:22the closer we get to ovulation we're
7:25more confident we're more articulate
7:28we're more sociable and so there you
7:32know there is the science to to show
7:34that um we do experience these shifts
7:38across our cycle when we get to
7:41ovulation we've got um big hormonal
7:45surges happening to um prepare a
7:48follicle to release an egg and that you
7:53know I'll go back to what I said at the
7:54beginning we're taught that ovulation is
7:58the time when we're feeling at our best
8:01when everything is brilliant you know
8:03we're really feeling confident and
8:06attractive and
8:08sortable and all of those positive
8:11things but what I would say is for lots
8:13of of people with different conditions
8:16like premenstrual dysphoric disorder
8:19even things like
8:21endometriosis ovulation can be a really
8:24tricky time because of those hormonal
8:26fluctuations that are happening and so
8:29it isn't always a positive thing for us
8:32and that's why I think that individual
8:34lens is is super super
8:37important then we move into the luteal
8:41phase where progesterone becomes the
8:44dominant hormone and takes over and
8:47progesterone has a very very different
8:48effect on the body compared to estrogen
8:51it's soothing it has this um kind of
8:58sedating effect it's very calming and we
9:01might find that we become more
9:04introspective we go into ourselves a bit
9:06more we're less
9:08sociable but again for some people who
9:11have a sensitivity to Progesterone the
9:13closer we get to our
9:16period we might find that we
9:19experience uh negative symptoms
9:22associated with those increas in levels
9:24of progesterone so low mood low energy
9:28uh bloting
9:30migraines oh there's a whole host of of
9:34symptoms associated with premenstrual
9:36syndrome and
9:38pmdd um so yeah that I think is the four
9:42phases of the cycle and what we might
9:45experience thank you so much for
9:48explaining all of that I really like the
9:50way you advocate for an individual lens
9:52for looking at this because obviously
9:54all women are different we all have very
9:56different experiences that are affected
9:58by things like you know whether we have
9:59a menstrual condition or not I just
10:01wanted to ask why do you think using the
10:04correct scientific language is is so
10:06important how does that fit into the
10:08conversation when we don't use the the
10:11correct terminology for when we're
10:14referring that let's take a Volver as an
10:18example when we're teaching young people
10:21that they've got a flower or they've got
10:23a fuu and they grow up and they don't
10:26know what a vula is and they don't know
10:28the difference between a vagina and a
10:31vver and it just it it exacerbates the
10:36stigma you know we we don't need to
10:39trivialize these things we don't need to
10:42use different language to dress it off
10:45it is what it is and so I'm I really do
10:49care about using the the proper
10:51terminology because I think if we don't
10:54we're just feeding into everything we're
10:56trying to undo Kate I don't know what
10:58you think
11:00no it's really interesting what you say
11:01I'm I'm 47 um and I think back through
11:04my My Life as a menstruating young women
11:08and a you know mature women and some of
11:10the language and the stigma that was
11:11attached I remember at school um it was
11:13very hush hush you know quite a bit of
11:16excitement when you got your first you
11:18know period amongst amongst the the
11:20girls but it was you know time of the
11:21month um and that's all it was and I
11:23remember having a friend who really
11:24struggled um with with period pain and
11:27we'd end up having a couple of days off
11:29each month and I remember her getting
11:30into trouble um you know the form
11:33teacher taking your assign saying you
11:35can't you've got to you can't have time
11:36off because of your time of the month
11:39you know you've got to pull yourself
11:40together you know and there was no sort
11:42of medical understanding um you know and
11:45compassion as as a result and she was
11:47you just got to get on with it put up
11:49with it you know that is not an excuse
11:51as an HR Manager you know again um women
11:55um finding themselves um being in a
11:58disciplinary situation because they were
12:00taking too much time off because of
12:02their periods that's not an excuse and
12:04then you know funny things when I was at
12:06un had a boyfriend at University H and I
12:09found his diary I probably shouldn't
12:10have been snooping his diary and he'd
12:11marked down one Tuesday month he'd put
12:14in the diary as weepy Tuesday I'm like
12:18weepy Tuesday and he said well that's
12:20when you have your period and you're
12:21pain and you're really annoying and
12:23grumpy you know there was such a stigma
12:25attached you know it's such a sort of
12:27stereotype there of you know just
12:28because I might have been grumpy on a
12:30few Tuesdays no it must be her time in a
12:34month and that is the symptoms that you
12:36know that women get with in and actually
12:38probably just had a terrible
12:39relationship um I blame him entirely for
12:43wey cheese toast but that's the kind of
12:45language it's a joke it's a stereotype
12:47not to be taken seriously um so yeah I
12:50completely see through my own
12:52experiences how not using and
12:55understanding the sort of correct
12:57medical terminology and what it really
12:59means for for Women's Health um is
13:03really harmful actually you know and and
13:05I mentioned the HR experience but you
13:07know people actually potentially losing
13:08their jobs because there was no
13:11understanding of of period as a medical
13:14condition and I wonder maybe CLA if you
13:16could explain a bit more about menstrual
13:19conditions like maybe endometriosis and
13:21I think it was pmdd that you mentioned U
13:23just briefly sort of what are they and
13:25how might they affect you in the
13:27workplace they are a whole host of
13:31different medical conditions directly
13:33linked to the menstrual cycle so if we
13:36take endometriosis first of all it's so
13:40so common it affects around one in 10
13:44females of reproductive age it's likely
13:46to be more than that because we know
13:48that it's massively
13:50underdiagnosed and it takes years
13:53decades in some cases to to actually get
13:55a diagnosis but what happens with
13:57endometriosis is the the cells that are
14:02usually found on the inside of the
14:05uterus will grow outside of the uterus
14:08and attach themselves to other parts of
14:11the body so places like the bladder the
14:15intestines at the Fallopian tubes the
14:18ovaries um those cells behave in a very
14:21very similar way to the cells on the
14:24inside of the uterus so they they fill
14:27with blood and they contract and so if
14:30you imagine the the pain and the
14:33inflammation that that can cause
14:37particularly there are different stages
14:39of the of the disease if we're going to
14:42call it a disease stage one to stage
14:44four now if someone has stage four
14:47endometriosis it means they've got lots
14:50of these lesions that are causing you
14:53know
14:54debilitating pain and symptoms um and
14:58when we're getting to that end of the
15:00spectrum we're talking about a
15:02disability really because the the pain
15:05and the interference in everyday life
15:08can be so
15:09significant people go to to Ana they go
15:13to hospital because the pain from a
15:15flare up can be so so
15:19excruciating um and then you we haven't
15:21even talked about the treatment and the
15:23the process for diagnosis which is
15:25incredibly invasive it requires surgery
15:29at the moment to make a definitive
15:32diagnosis which again going through that
15:36and then recovering and having to take
15:38time off work and having to explain that
15:41and the other person doesn't know what
15:44Endo is and hasn't got a clue and really
15:48complex um situation so that's
15:51endometriosis um pmdd very different but
15:55also linked to the menstrual cycle so
15:58people with
15:59pmdd um and I I include myself in this I
16:04live with pmdd premenstrual dysphoric
16:08disorder so we talked about how our
16:12hormones change during the menstrual
16:15cycle well for people with pmdd we have
16:18an abnormal reaction or a a very very um
16:23heightened sensitivity to those hormone
16:26changes so when we experience these
16:30Peaks and these drops in hormone levels
16:33it can trigger a whole host of
16:36symptoms and that ranges you know it's
16:39different for every person just like
16:41Endor symptoms vary between each
16:44individual but for pmdd to be diagnosed
16:48there does have to be the presence of
16:51psychological symptoms and it's actually
16:54medically recognized as a mental health
16:57condition to give you a sense of of the
17:00impact and and how it presents and so a
17:03lot of us will experience a real shift
17:07in our mood we'll go from being our
17:11normal selves inverted commas if you
17:13like to being this depressed hopeless
17:18pessimistic unhappy version of
17:21ourselves that is
17:23unrecognizable and it might be that we
17:25experience chronic fatigue we unable of
17:29function as we normally do in the time
17:32from ovulation leading up to our period
17:35so we have this this luteal phas usually
17:38where we notice this really significant
17:42change in in our cells and then our
17:45period arrives and everything goes back
17:48to normal when when those hormone
17:51fluctuations settle down everything kind
17:54of just just returns to some kind of
17:57equilibri
17:59and then you know you spend the next two
18:02weeks undoing the damage that you've
18:04done uh picking up the pieces trying to
18:07recover things and prepare yourself for
18:10it all to happen again because it's
18:12cyclical and you know there's a there's
18:15a rhythm to it so that's
18:17pmdd these are obviously huge issues
18:21potentially in the workplace for for
18:23women experiencing these these
18:25conditions it must have a huge impact on
18:27your productivity and your well-being
18:29Kate I was just wondering given your HR
18:31background how might you think these
18:34could be addressed by an employer it's
18:36quite a big question but do you have any
18:37ideas of how a workplace could create a
18:40more supportive and inclusive
18:42environment for those experiencing these
18:44these symptoms yeah I mean I think you
18:46know first of all you you've got to to
18:49remove the stigma attached to talking
18:51about these these health issues you know
18:54we should be able to talk about them in
18:55the same way as we do you know other
18:57sort of physic iCal Health uh conditions
19:01I don't think we can expect our line
19:02managers all to be you know experts in
19:05pmdd and endometriosis but we do need to
19:08create the kind of environment where you
19:10know our line managers um you know
19:14hopefully an individual can you know
19:16feel comfortable to go to their line
19:18manager or their HR whoever it might be
19:20and say I'm really struggling at the
19:22moment and this is why um and then you
19:25know that that um person is equipped to
19:27provide them with with support that they
19:29need in the workplace whether that's you
19:30know some time off or whether that's
19:32flexibility to be able to sign post them
19:35um to professionals you know working in
19:38the community who who can give them
19:40expert medical advice um so it's about
19:45creating that environment where there
19:46isn't this stigma attached that you
19:47don't have to you know period pain or
19:50whatever it might be you can have that
19:51conversation without fear without fear
19:54that you're going to be um stigmatized
19:57yourself as a a woman in the workplace
20:00um and I you know I'm I think we're
20:02probably quite a long way from that in
20:04in a lot of organizations still I mean
20:07the other thing is that we're equipping
20:08our our line managers to be able to spot
20:10when someone's struggling you know we've
20:11talked about it a lot from a mental
20:13health and and well-being point of view
20:16over the last few years and made real
20:17progress um it's it's you know this is
20:20this doesn't just include women with
20:23with mental health um concerns it it
20:25covers employeers with all sorts of
20:27issues that might be going on it's about
20:29enabling our line managers to spot when
20:31somebody is struggling isn't themselves
20:33and being able to say are you okay you
20:35know have that sensitive conversation
20:37and then um you know sort of together
20:40work out the kind of support they might
20:42need um so it's that cultural change um
20:46that that we need to see and you know
20:48and you know increasingly we're seeing
20:50organizations bring in menopause
20:53policies for example which is great but
20:55a menopause policy alone is it's just a
20:57piece of paper or just a um you know a a
21:00a section on your your internet um that
21:03alone isn't going to to change things um
21:06it's a cultural shift so talk you know
21:08getting people like Claren to give a
21:10talk you know normalizing the the
21:12language um you know referring back to
21:15the point about medical using medical
21:16terms I think that helps um because
21:19we're we're placing it very firmly in a
21:21you know in the arena of you know a
21:23medical condition it makes it easier for
21:26for us to understand why
21:28um you know we need to to be supportive
21:31and why people might need um some some
21:34extra help um so yeah it's about
21:37changing that that culture and as I said
21:39S I think we're quite a long way off
21:41from achieving that in most
21:42organizations yeah I definitely agree
21:44it's to do with driving change
21:46surrounding the culture and surrounding
21:47the language and not just you know using
21:50these issues as just a tick book
21:52exercise it's important to actually
21:55educate yourself especially if you're a
21:56man and you don't understand understand
21:58any of these issues it's important to
21:59you know have these conversations
22:01educate yourself and then take steps to
22:04sort of reduce the stigma I think that's
22:06probably like the first step and one of
22:08the main issues I I went to an old girl
22:10school and you'd be so even then you'd
22:12be so embarrassed to have like a tampor
22:14and you'd like hide it under your arm
22:16and it's just like it's it's incredible
22:19how stigmatized periods have become
22:21given it affects half of the population
22:24and I do think we are sort of making
22:25change to to you know address this um
22:29and to raise awareness and and one thing
22:31that you both have worked on not
22:33directly in relation to that but in
22:35relation to the menopause as being the
22:3751 employers pledge um Kate I wonder if
22:40you could tell me a bit more about that
22:42pledge and what it means to support
22:44women going through the menopause yeah I
22:47mean it was it's been a really
22:48interesting Journey actually um it
22:50started as uh the diving Network um
22:53brought Clarin actually to to run a
22:55webinar um just after covid so going
22:58back a couple of years now on on the
23:00menopause and we've been hoping to to to
23:02do something for for a long time and I
23:06couldn't believe the response to this
23:09was this webinar was a free webinar but
23:11the place is filled within two days of
23:14it going live on on event bite um and I
23:18I thought wow there's a real need here
23:21um really brilliant insightful webinar
23:25um from Claire um and through the
23:28discussions in that webinar became
23:29apparent that there this lack of
23:31understanding lack of support the stigma
23:33still attached to to menopause and
23:36particularly in our in our workplaces so
23:38as a result of that um Julia CLA and I
23:41um established a sort of online
23:43menopause Cafe and again you know every
23:46month it was very informal it was just a
23:48space for people to come and share their
23:49experiences their stories seek advice
23:52you know we weren't giving medical
23:53advice it was it was more about sharing
23:55stories and and and supporting each
23:57other
23:58those menopause cafes were were were
24:00really popular and and yet again the
24:02sort of issu that you know workplace was
24:04coming through as a a really big barrier
24:08um for women um in terms of how they
24:12were coping with with per menopause and
24:15and menopause and being able to seek um
24:18support and and continue you know to
24:21work in the way they've been used to
24:23working um fear that um they were going
24:27to to be demoted lose their jobs or
24:30would have to to leave the workplace
24:32because you know there just wasn't that
24:34understanding there so um I think it it
24:36was jul I think it was actually Julia's
24:38idea initially that actually we needed a
24:40tool to help employers um and it needed
24:43to be something that really started a
24:46very high-profile conversation in Jersey
24:49around menopause so that we made it
24:51something that people were happy to talk
24:53about that it wasn't this oh you know
24:56something that happens to women at a
24:57certain age it was perimenopause
25:00menopause um and and and to to start
25:03sort of taking away that stigma um more
25:06generally um so cl cl was the the
25:09architect um as with everything she does
25:12very much based on um you know this sort
25:15medical um Theory and and her practical
25:18experience as well as a professional in
25:21this sphere came up with a sort of 14o
25:23pledge and it's a really simple
25:25framework um as I said the beginning of
25:28the the this conversation that we
25:30thought any employer can pick up and and
25:34Implement um and by implementing those
25:37those 14 points they um really start to
25:40sort of chip away at the stigma they
25:42make menopause something that's okay for
25:44people to talk about not just providing
25:46support for for for people struggling
25:49with with param menopausal symptoms and
25:50menopause themselves but but their
25:52Partners um you know the number of men
25:55um who you know I've now run quite a lot
25:58of talks in in in local organizations
26:01about the pledge and the number of men
26:03that come along and want to understand
26:05and learn more is is brilliant and I
26:07think that's a really important Point um
26:09because it can be hard for partners too
26:11um so it wasn't about a tick boox
26:14exercise we weren't going in an auditing
26:16progress it was about creating lots of
26:18noise and lots of conversation um and
26:21improving understanding about menopause
26:24in order to create those more inclusive
26:26workplaces um um and yeah you know the
26:28fact I think it's around 80 employers
26:31have signed up across the range of
26:32Industries is um just uh really
26:36demonstrates the the need um you know
26:40and I think you know we were helped to
26:42at the time very high-profile um
26:44celebrities talking openly about their
26:46experiences deina mcco being you know
26:48the the really famous one I think that
26:50helped it was quite a fashionable topic
26:54um and I don't think we've seen that in
26:55the same way as as you know when we talk
26:59about other sort of um menstrual health
27:00issues and and and we we need a lot more
27:03of that people normalizing it um taking
27:07away that that stigma exactly the
27:09conversation it's been amazing that
27:12we're having more conversations about
27:13the menopause and real work is being
27:15done to improve and address the
27:17associated issues and remove the stigma
27:19but there is still more to be done in
27:21terms of actually you know helping
27:24menstrual health and it in its other
27:25forms um but CL I was wondering if you
27:28could just tell me a little bit more
27:30about what the menopause actually is and
27:33what per menopause is and you know just
27:36a little bit more of an explanation
27:38surrounding that yeah absolutely so
27:41perimenopause is the the period of time
27:45where our hormone levels start to
27:49fluctuate and gradually decline as our
27:53ovarian function or our natural ability
27:56to reproduce it if you like uh runs out
28:00uh so I think of it as you know your
28:02over going into retirement and that
28:06usually and I'm generalizing that
28:08usually starts to happen from our
28:10mid-30s so around our mid-30s we'll see
28:15our levels of estrogen progesterone
28:19testosterone gradually start to decline
28:22but while they're doing this they're
28:25fluctuating and it's a into puberty when
28:29you look at what's happening behind the
28:31scenes hormonally these fluctuations can
28:34be really wild um so that's why it can
28:37feel like a really turbulent time it's
28:42disorientating you see these changes
28:44these symptoms cropping up spanning
28:47physical cognitive
28:49psychological many of us think what the
28:52hell what the hell is going on like am I
28:55losing my marbles it can be a really and
28:58I'm I'm saying that lightly but it can
29:00be a really tricky time um for for lots
29:04of us and about
29:0625% of women report having very severe
29:11experiences when they they're going
29:13through per menopause so this is the
29:16time leading up to menopause well what's
29:19menopause menopause is an event which
29:23sounds bizarre but it's
29:26365 days after we've had our last period
29:31so if it's been 12 months or more since
29:34you had a period you have officially
29:37reached menopause and you're now
29:41postmenopausal postmenopause is also a
29:44really really important uh phase and we
29:47don't talk about that enough because
29:49we're living much much longer into our
29:53postmenopausal years and you know
29:55previously we wouldn't have even lived
29:57to see
29:58menopause um and we need to in that
30:01stage we need to think
30:04about supporting our cardiovascular
30:06health our cognitive and you know brain
30:10health um and our bone health because if
30:13we're not replacing those those lost
30:18levels of of hormones we're more
30:20susceptible to those um age related
30:24diseases and health conditions um but
30:27average age for reaching menopause in
30:29the UK and in in
30:31Western cultures is around
30:3451
30:36but we also know that lots of people
30:39will go through an early menopause so it
30:42might be decades before that um we also
30:46have people who will be in chemical
30:48menopause perhaps there's a treatment
30:50for something like
30:52endometriosis or
30:54pmdd and similarly surgical menopause
30:57ause so if you remove the ovaries you're
31:00going to put someone into a state of
31:02menopause and that transition can happen
31:05very very quickly so that's different to
31:08a a natural menopause similarly cancer
31:12treatment um and and certain medical
31:14conditions can bring on menopause early
31:17so Kate I think mentioned stereotypes
31:20and it being this midli thing well no
31:22it's not you know I've Got Friends in
31:24the pmdd community who are now in
31:27surgical menopause they're in their 20s
31:30and 30s and so it this can happen at any
31:35stage in our reproductive years um so
31:38it's not just something that's exclusive
31:41to when we get into our 40s 50s 60s and
31:45I think that's why it's important for
31:47everyone to get educated and be part of
31:50the conversation and I think because you
31:53know we have been having that
31:54conversation around menopause we we are
31:56seeing not just progress in the
31:58workplace but medically as as well I
32:01mean when I first I I I have been
32:03through that menopause event I'm only 47
32:06so relatively young the first time I
32:07went to my GP I was maybe 42 um and I've
32:12been having the most horrendous night
32:14sweats which I now know a very a common
32:17symptom being I'm like what the hell's
32:19wrong with me because no one's ever talk
32:21me about menopause before I didn't know
32:23necessarily it was a symptom and I went
32:25to my GP and and and neither is she um
32:29so she she wondered if it might be
32:30something to do with the fact that I'd
32:32started running it just you know just
32:35sold you Rod again you know there was no
32:37support there and I it wasn't actually
32:40until I started doing this work with CLA
32:42on 51 employers that I really understood
32:44that I was clearly per menopausal um and
32:48it wasn't actually until I'd reached
32:50menopause that um I went to the GP and
32:53um said well you know Bob through it now
32:56so I guess just get on you know HRT it's
32:58it's really important the health
32:59benefits of of of HRT for you know for
33:02your bones for your heart I it's it's
33:05really important that you know if you're
33:06able to to not everybody can can have
33:09HRT then you know try it I have and it
33:12honestly it's been um sounds like I'm
33:14exaggerated but it has been life uh
33:17changing I haven't slept so well since
33:21before I had kids um and that in itself
33:23has has changed my My Life um so um when
33:28we do start to have these conversations
33:30when we do start to normalize the
33:33language and and and raise awareness of
33:36um menopause it impacts all aspects of
33:39you know of life um work um school um
33:44but also um you know the sort of uh I
33:47think pressure on medical expert experts
33:49to to up their their knowledge because
33:52it's very reliant on those individuals
33:54to to you know improve and and and keep
33:57their their medical um knowledge and and
33:59awareness up to speed um so yeah you
34:03know the menopause piece has has been
34:05huge um and it's making a big difference
34:08um to to the women are being taken
34:10seriously um and being given much better
34:14help and support in all aspects of their
34:16life um still a way to go yeah for sure
34:20um I think the conversation's definitely
34:23definitely enhance my my knowledge and
34:25understanding of what the menopause is I
34:27think there's a really important and
34:28very serious issue around gender
34:30equality too um you know in Jersey we've
34:34we've just some some the gender pay Gap
34:37statistics have have just been released
34:39last week and um we still have you know
34:4212% um gender pay Gap in Jersey and and
34:45the sort of motherhood penalty is well
34:48known that women around the age of 30
34:50that you know the earning potential
34:51compared to their male colleagues
34:53suddenly starts to to drop um but there
34:56was some really really interesting data
34:57that really warrants further exploration
35:00about women in their early 50s suddenly
35:04massively dropping um that the salary is
35:06hugely declining um so you know it's a
35:08big question is there is there a you
35:10know a a menopause penalty here too you
35:13know women are leaving the workplace or
35:15reducing their hours or taking a you
35:18know a lower grade role because they
35:20they're struggling with a menopause
35:21symptoms and this has an e you know this
35:23impacts women financially um and
35:27therefore there's an economic issue for
35:29for the island as well if you've got
35:31women um earning less then you know this
35:35lower less tax being being paid um more
35:38women struggling um you know financially
35:42um so there's also you know there's much
35:43bigger issues here but I find it you
35:45know this issue around gender equality
35:48really fascinating the fact that women
35:51have been stereotyped for years per de
35:54or since time of Memorial because of
35:56their
35:57you know menstrual cycle um you know for
36:00example and and period pain and and
36:02other symptoms that they might struggle
36:04with um you know we are stigmatized as
36:08as as as human beings um and I I think
36:13this is such a fundamentally important
36:15part of the conversation when we're
36:17talking about tackling gender equality
36:20um this isn't just about helping a few
36:22women out who you know are getting hot
36:24flashes or you know struggling this is a
36:26you know
36:27a part of being a woman um and without
36:31having that medical understanding um and
36:34and support available we are not going
36:36to achieve gender equality yeah I think
36:40these issues just so fundamental to
36:42everything we experience as a woman
36:44throughout our whole lifespan all of
36:46these issues are just so prevalent and
36:48you know a lot of them are related to
36:50issues of gender equality and oppression
36:52and also like to do with our hormones
36:55and our daily function not being
36:57understood by Society our society not
37:00being created for women necessarily
37:03being more created for a man like
37:06there's a huge gap medically still you
37:08know I was as I was sort of doing a bit
37:11of research before this this this
37:13conversation this morning you know I was
37:15astounded to you know by some of the
37:17statistics 70% of those experiencing
37:21chronic pain are women but 80% of pain
37:25research is conducted on men MH um you
37:28know that's still the case there's so
37:31little understanding about how women's
37:33bodies work because it's just not been
37:35of interest to the sort of scientific
37:38and and medical world and it's that's
37:41shocking um females were excluded from
37:45clinical trials because our menstrual
37:48cycles messed up the data and produce
37:52messy results I mean so even things like
37:56when we're taken over the counter
37:59medication like ibuprofen paracetamol
38:02aspirin all of these things you've got
38:05to ask yourself has this been tested on
38:10males and
38:11females and you know what are the gender
38:14what are the sex differences in the
38:17statistically it's like not to have been
38:19tested on women which is frankly quite
38:21terrifying um but um you know I was
38:25reading about you know what other sort
38:27of countries are doing around these
38:29menstrual health issues and and um I
38:32hadn't realized quite how many countries
38:34actually have a statutory um statut paid
38:39period leave or statutory period leave
38:42um and Spain last year was of famously
38:44the first European country to introduce
38:48paid leave uh for people struggling um
38:52with their their periods um and the
38:57argument uh supporting uh that that new
39:01statutory right was that and I I quote
39:03women are not full citizens without
39:06those rights um quite powerful isn't it
39:10um it's really really important that
39:13women have the right to uh receive uh
39:17you know proper medical support um and
39:21and treatment and understanding in their
39:24workplace for um mental health issues um
39:29and that that just isn't the case um
39:31currently thank you for raising that I
39:33think it's such an interesting
39:35conversation surrounding period leave
39:37and how that fits into the convers
39:38around Jersey CLA I wonder if you could
39:40explain to me what period leave would
39:43mean in practice and what benefits to
39:45women it would have and what maybe
39:47challenges they might face if this was
39:49brought brought into place well
39:52unpopular opinion I I don't actually
39:55support men me neither I agree I I
40:01because of the the unintended
40:03consequences that can happen um and
40:07because if we think about it on a really
40:10practical level and the logistics so you
40:12introduce a policy that says people with
40:15with periods can have a paid day off on
40:19the first day of their period if they're
40:22in pain and that's that's usually how
40:25these things go
40:27well what does that mean for me as
40:30someone with
40:31pmdd who is potentially in you know
40:35incapacitated probably the wrong word uh
40:38impaired for more than a day and my
40:42symptoms on physical pain minor
40:45psychological symptoms so where do I fit
40:48within that policy and what is my kind
40:51of
40:53um entitlement if you like as someone
40:56with a with a medical condition and I
40:59think we've got to be really careful
41:02about recognizing the difference
41:06between medical conditions that are you
41:10know
41:12menstrual
41:13issues and general experiences that
41:17might not actually require a paid day
41:20off it might be a preference but there's
41:23a difference between a need a medic need
41:26and a and a preference there's also
41:30something around disclosure and how do
41:33you access this leave if you are wanting
41:37to to take it are you then forced to
41:40tell your employer well I'm on my period
41:42And so I'm going to take I I need this
41:44as paid leave like there's just so many
41:48questions and I think the risk is it
41:50weakens our position as as women females
41:54because an employer might go well no
41:56I've got to pay them one day off a month
41:59and they're not going to be working when
42:02actually many of us if we're able to
42:05work
42:06flexibly and work from home and work in
42:09a way that is comfortable for us we
42:12don't need a special policy for for
42:16menstrual issues and where does that
42:18leave people with diabetes people with
42:21irritable bowel syndrome people with
42:24depression people you know when do we
42:26stop so I think yeah the best approach
42:29is flexibility for everyone and that is
42:33truly Equitable isn't it no matter what
42:36you've got on in life and we've all got
42:38stuff that happens and crops up life
42:41life and that I think is a is a much
42:46better approach however I do think there
42:50is still a real need for the awareness
42:53the education the manager training and
42:56everything else we've talked about but
42:58in terms of
43:00policy I no call it well-being days give
43:04everyone an entitlement if you can take
43:0710 well-being days a month or duv days
43:10whatever you want to call them but don't
43:13label them menstrual or period leave
43:17days or whatever because I I think it
43:19it's detrimental actually from a gender
43:21recity point of view you explain that
43:24perfectly Kate I can see your head noing
43:27away no I completely agree with I
43:29completely agree with everything that
43:31that CLA is saying and interestingly I
43:33it's too early to to assess how well the
43:34sort of Spanish um uh legislation is is
43:38is working out but in certainly in some
43:40of the other countries um you know Tyran
43:42South Korea U Zambia Indonesia I think a
43:46lot of the sort of um evidence is
43:48suggesting is actually having a
43:49detrimental effect for for women in the
43:51workplace because they are being
43:53stigmatized so therefore you know
43:55culturally they're not actually asking
43:57uh for for the leave anyway because they
43:59feel they can't or that they will be so
44:01until culturally we're in a place where
44:04you're not going to be stigmatized it's
44:06really not going to to change much and
44:08it's it's potentially actually going to
44:09be detrimental but I I agree with with
44:12with CLA you need a much more inclusive
44:14approach you know do do you have a
44:16policy for fertility for menopause but
44:19do you have you know and what about men
44:21who are are struggling with with
44:23different mental and physical health
44:25issues as well so I I actually think
44:27there's a much bigger question to be
44:28asked about our approach to um sick Le
44:31more generally I think um many of our
44:34approaches to managing uh sick cleave
44:37pretty archaic to be honest and and um
44:40you know this this sort of uh concern
44:42that if you pay if you give people too
44:44much paid uh statory too much paid sick
44:48leave um they're going to abuse that and
44:50they're going to take you know take
44:52their their full entitlement actually
44:54the evidence suggests that those
44:56organizations with more generous and
44:58those countries with more generous um
45:01sick leave and pay have a much better um
45:05have a much lower absence rate um in
45:08their organization probably because
45:09they've got much better culture um you
45:12really do you want to be forcing people
45:13back into work when they're not able to
45:15to to perform well um you know if you're
45:19talking about sort of you know other
45:20physical contagious uh illnesses and
45:23we've had our recent experience Happ
45:25with Co really want those people in the
45:27so I think there's a more fundamental
45:28question around um how we manage
45:30sickness absence um and those you know
45:33with medical conditions um relating to
45:35their menstrual Health um should should
45:37benefit from a you know a a more
45:40considered and and probably more
45:42generous approach to to to six sick pay
45:45and absence um and at the same time
45:47others um who are struggling for for
45:49multitude of um medical reasons will
45:52benefit too um so I I agree with CLA and
45:56I I I think we should be looking at our
45:58our staty sck pay and these I mean our
46:01our um our friends in gery don't have a
46:04legal entitlement to staty uh sick leave
46:08um so uh you know that that's
46:11interesting um of course many
46:15organizations you know go beyond U the
46:17statutory and and consider how they can
46:20support their employees in terms of
46:21their health and well-being in a much
46:23more Progressive Way um and that's to be
46:26encouraged I was just say it's it's
46:28really interesting when we when we take
46:30that back to the gender the workplace
46:32gender gap and and the societal gender
46:36gap when we know that women are much
46:40more likely to experience things like
46:42autoimmune disease and chronic health
46:46conditions and yet we have this uniform
46:51approach to sickness absence and
46:53sickness absence management and
46:56if the playing field is uneven unequal
47:00and we're looking at everyone the same
47:02they've got the same entitlement but we
47:03know that this group has a vulnerability
47:06like it it just as K said it causes so
47:09many questions about the way where you
47:10can approach things and I think it's a
47:13case of it's because it's always been
47:15done this way we've always done it like
47:18this and so let's continue and yeah I
47:22mean get rid of sickness absence
47:25triggers and all of that rubbish that's
47:27you know why do we why why do we and
47:30Kate you mentioned um a friend in in
47:33school who got into trouble for being
47:35absent that's when it starts you know we
47:39we reward people for
47:43100% um pres presence attendance that's
47:47the word I was looking for attendance
47:49yes and that's not possible for so many
47:53of us and yet that con continues when we
47:56get into the workplace we penalize
47:58people if they need to take time off to
48:01prioritize their health yeah it's
48:04Bonkers everything not about wellbe it's
48:07it's not yeah it amazes you know and I
48:10think that's the root of so many of
48:12these um exclusive cultures rather
48:15inclusive we start from this place of
48:18distrust you know you can't be this ill
48:20you can't have that you know you must be
48:22lying or you must be abusing the system
48:24um and
48:26yeah it's shocking and and all the
48:28evidence is that is there to support you
48:30know that the more inclusive an approach
48:32we have the more flexibility we we have
48:35the the more generous we are with how we
48:38treat people who are ill um you know the
48:42the better attention rates our our
48:44productivity is higher our absence rates
48:46are lower um you know and and those with
48:49the more sort of draconian approach um
48:53you know three strikes and you're on a
48:54disciplinary
48:56um don't retain their good people um or
49:00their people stay and and become Mor
49:02real um and less productive um so yeah I
49:06think we're looking at it all wrong or
49:09they end up with with an employment
49:11tribunal on their hands and it's about
49:1326,000 to settle a discrimination case
49:17so not here in Jersey
49:21clar yes there the the are much less
49:26generous in in in Jersey which is
49:28another question that's actually up for
49:32you know being discussed at the moment
49:34um but uh yeah um yeah it's a different
49:38situation here when it comes to tribunal
49:41and we have a big culture of um uh
49:44compromise agreements and and ndas as
49:47well um so many of the Discrimination uh
49:50issues don't even reach tribunal which
49:52means that employees are not
49:54learning um
49:56from you know repeating the same
49:58mistakes that lead to these um
50:01discrimination claims um and ndas and
50:05exiting people um and we know the cost
50:07of recruitment is so high um and and
50:11it's so challenging to to to to recruit
50:14people at the moment um why would you
50:16not be wanting to improve the way you
50:19you retain you know you're good people
50:22but interesting well that's all so
50:27interesting going back to the period
50:28leap I wasn't really sure where I sat
50:30with it I feel like I had sort of a
50:32sense of unease and that it might lead
50:34to like a backlash or you know women
50:36would feel comfortable or that there
50:37were better ways in the sense of
50:40creating a more flexible work culture as
50:42you were saying where you know you have
50:44capacity to work from home whether that
50:46be I don't know if you've got some sort
50:48of medical condition or mental health
50:50condition or it's something to do with
50:51menstrual symptoms there's just so so
50:54many things that being
50:56F so as you say educating raising
51:00awareness and adding the stigma and
51:02creating a change in culture I think is
51:04the way to to address it yeah well I
51:07understand the rationale for the period
51:09Le you know in terms of um normalizing
51:13you know period pain as a you know a
51:16health um condition um you know removing
51:20that stigma stigma you know trying to to
51:22give women more rights um in in the work
51:25place but until
51:27culturally you know we're able to
51:29actually have those conversations and
51:32for women not to be stigmatized as a
51:34result of saying I need time off because
51:36of my period um it's just not going to
51:39it's not going to work and how do we
51:42drive cultural Change Is it having more
51:44conversations what what do you think is
51:46the best way to sort of drive this from
51:48the bottom up I think we're in the midst
51:50of a real menstrual movement at the
51:53moment which is fantastic um off the
51:56back of the menopause movement that was
51:59driven as as Kate mentioned before by
52:01some some really um pivotal celebrities
52:04who've who've driven that
52:07forwards but in terms of of what we can
52:10do in our organizations I think it's
52:13starting the conversation whatever that
52:16looks like if you've got a women's
52:19Network or an ERG start the conversation
52:22ask people about their experiences
52:25storytelling is a huge part of this and
52:28giving people the opportunity to to talk
52:31and to connect and seek that that really
52:34powerful Pier support manager training I
52:38think is a huge one to equip people with
52:41the knowledge and the vocabulary and the
52:44confidence what we don't want to do
52:46is get these conversations going but not
52:50Empower our managers with the things
52:52they need to be able to support people
52:54and I think it's really unfair if if we
52:56don't do that and we expect them to be
52:58able to navigate those Waters without
53:01any kind of direction or
53:03support and then yeah there's lots of
53:08lots of things just yeah Kate yeah no I
53:11agree with everything CLA says starting
53:13the conversation but I think investing
53:15in your your your people managers yeah
53:18so um and and this is what excit excited
53:21me about the you know the 51 employers
53:23pledge that it it wouldn't just help per
53:26menopause and menopause women it would
53:27help any employee that is struggling
53:29because it helps you to give your line
53:33managers the skills they need to create
53:35you know inclusive team cultures an
53:37environment where people can say you
53:39know what I'm really struggling um you
53:41know well this is I'm finding this hard
53:43I need some help I need some flexibility
53:45and to be able to spot the signs and
53:47have that sensitive conversation when
53:49when someone is not themselves as I say
53:52that stretches Way Beyond um you know
53:55menopause um it it will help any
53:59employee you know whether they have
54:00another health issue mental health
54:02problems at home going through a
54:04horrible divorce for whatever reason
54:06that they are struggling or not
54:09themselves it means that they're an
54:10environment where they're not going to
54:12be judged there's not going to be
54:13assumptions made about what's wrong with
54:14them or they're no longer a good
54:16performer um you know line managers are
54:18equipped to to help them before it
54:20becomes a irreparable um you know issue
54:23for that person in their workplace MH
54:26and on on culture one one thing that
54:29I've been thinking about recently is if
54:32if it's really hard to talk about these
54:37personal sensitive
54:39topics is that a symptom of something a
54:43bigger problem culturally if we talk
54:46about things like psychological safety
54:48people feeling safe to open up to be
54:51vulnerable to take risks without
54:53consequence without
54:55repercussions without
54:58backlash really menstrual Health it's
55:01part of being able to be your authentic
55:04self isn't it and if you can't do that
55:07what does that say about your culture
55:10and I'd be really holding a mirror up
55:12and thinking well people you know they
55:15can't be themselves here we've got this
55:18real tampon up the sleeve culture where
55:22no one can ask for help everyone's
55:25burning out because they're so afraid to
55:27say hey I'm struggling I'm drowning here
55:30and so that I think it can also be a
55:33symptom of a a much bigger um issue that
55:36might be going on yeah so it's not it's
55:40not just an issue for employers either I
55:42mean the good news in in Jersey is that
55:44we have now got a sort of public
55:46conversation about periods um in the
55:49context of period poverty actually so
55:51the government has been putting fre
55:53period um products in in um public
55:56spaces and there's been some debate over
55:58whether they're approaching it in the
55:59right way um but you know I think that's
56:02a really good move um and the fact that
56:05we're they're doing it has created this
56:07conversation about people are talking
56:09about per you know not in whispered
56:10tones they're talking about periods um
56:13and and specifically period poverty um
56:16which is you know another issue in
56:18itself um so yeah you know I think we
56:21are referring to CL what CLA said
56:23earlier you know there's a move I think
56:25there is a movement and we're beginning
56:27to see that in Jersey so it means
56:29employers it means um government it
56:32means um GPS you know all really
56:36beginning to um improve their their
56:39knowledge and their their understanding
56:42around the issues and you know then
56:44consider the solutions but the 51
56:47employers places pled is a good place to
56:50start I think you can easily translate
56:53it more broadly to um mental health
56:56issues um in in addition to to menopause
57:00thank you so much both of you you are so
57:02so informed about this topic and it's I
57:05just found it absolutely fascinating
57:07hearing from you you've spoken so well
57:09about all of these topics and please can
57:11we do a part two because I feel like we
57:13all have so much more to say about this
57:15topic we've been almost talking for an
57:17hour and a half and I feel like we've
57:18covered so much but we could speak for
57:20another 4 hours I'm sure about these
57:24issues tell what an interesting another
57:27interesting one might be facility um and
57:31especially in the context of an aging
57:32population which is something that
57:34jerseys talking about a lot at the
57:37moment and there is some work going on
57:39um locally around that too and so that
57:41might be an interesting one sure there's
57:45so much I absolutely love talking about
57:46those sort of thing so thank you so much
57:49well thank you thank you very
57:53much
57:59I hope you enjoyed the special episode
58:01of bck podcasts for international
58:03women's day for more on that and for
58:05more female Focus stories visit book
58:17[Music]
58:23express.com
59:07I

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