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The Interrogation of Colonel Russell Williams — Transcript

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0:00On the afternoon of February 7th, 2010,
0:03Detective Sergeant Jim Smith of the
0:05Ontario Provincial Police sat down
0:07across a table from the most senior
0:09military officer ever to be arrested in
0:11Canadian history. Colonel Russell
0:14Williams commanded CFB Trenton, the
0:16largest and most operationally
0:18significant air base in Canada. He had
0:21personally flown the Queen of England.
0:23He had flown the Prime Minister. He had
0:26a distinguished career spanning decades.
0:28A wife who loved him, a brand new house
0:31being built in Ottawa, and a colleague,
0:33Corporal Marie France Ko, who had
0:35recently been found murdered in her
0:37home. And he had no idea when he walked
0:40into that police station that Sunday
0:42afternoon that he was already caught.
0:44What followed over the next 2 hours and
0:4630some minutes is widely studied in law
0:49enforcement around the world as one of
0:51the most masterfully executed
0:53interrogations ever recorded. Not
0:56because of what Williams did, but
0:58because of what Detective Sergeant Jim
1:00Smith did. Smith did not yell. He did
1:03not threaten. He did not accuse. He
1:06built with the patience and precision of
1:08a master craftsman, an evidence
1:10architecture so complete and so airtight
1:13that by the time he presented it to
1:14Russell Williams, there was no door left
1:17to walk through except the one marked
1:18truth. But before we get to that room, I
1:21want to talk about the man who walked
1:23into it. Because understanding who
1:25Russell Williams was and the specific
1:27hidden psychological world he had been
1:30building for years alongside his
1:31distinguished career is the only way to
1:34understand how a man of his stature
1:36ended up confessing to two murders, two
1:38sexual assaults, and 82 counts of
1:40breaking and entering, mostly to steal
1:43women's underwear. Russell Williams had
1:45been leading two completely separate
1:47lives for at least a decade before his
1:49arrest. In life, one decorated military
1:53officer trusted with the highest levels
1:55of national security, respected by
1:58colleagues, liked by subordinates,
2:00described universally as professional,
2:02calm, and competent. In life, too, he
2:05had been breaking into the homes of
2:07women and girls in his neighborhood,
2:09some as young as 8 years old, to steal
2:11their underwear. He photographed himself
2:14wearing it. He cataloged everything with
2:17military precision, detailed records,
2:19organized storage, careful
2:21documentation. He had over 80 breakins
2:24to his name before he ever escalated to
2:26sexual assault. And he had been doing
2:29this apparently without detection for
2:31years. The escalation from breaking and
2:33entering to sexual assault to murder
2:35follows a pathway that forensic
2:37psychologists call the paraphilic
2:39escalation ladder. A progression in
2:41which an initial behavior that provides
2:43gratification becomes insufficient over
2:45time. Requiring the next step to achieve
2:48the same level of arousal. Breaking in
2:51wasn't enough. Wearing the underwear
2:53wasn't enough. Taking photographs wasn't
2:55enough. Marie France Ko and Jessica
2:58Lloyd paid for that escalation with
3:00their lives. What I want you to hold in
3:02your mind as you watch this
3:04interrogation is this. The man sitting
3:06across from Detective Smith is not what
3:08he appears. He is not the competent,
3:11measured, cooperative military officer
3:13performing admirably under unexpected
3:16pressure. He is a man who has been
3:18performing his entire adult life and who
3:21is about to run out of stage. All right.
3:27Guy was speaking with whatever night
3:30that was was Russ as well.
3:32>> Oh yeah.
3:32>> Took took every number I had.
3:35>> Yeah. Now they were doing some pretty
3:36thorough interviews that night. So
3:37>> yeah, absolutely.
3:39Glad to see it.
3:40>> I'm just going to move your gloves here.
3:41That's a little microphone just to make
3:42sure there's nice and clear. Um, as you
3:44can see here, everything in this room is
3:45uh videotaped and audio taped.
3:47>> Check.
3:47>> Uh,
3:49you've been interviewed by the police in
3:50a in a room like this before?
3:52>> I have never been interviewed like this.
3:53>> Oh, no. Okay.
3:54>> No. Let's get this set up.
4:00>> I guess closest to
4:03interview by NIS for top secret
4:05clearance.
4:06>> Oh, yeah.
4:07All right. Well, again, Russell, I
4:09appreciate you coming in an
4:10investigation like this. I mean, I'm
4:11sure you can appreciate it's been big
4:12news, uh, especially down Belville way.
4:16Um, and you know, obviously our approach
4:18to cases like this is that, uh, uh, we
4:21don't give up on somebody being alive
4:23until we get evidence that they're not.
4:25So,
4:25>> um, because of that, we're treating uh,
4:27Jessica's case as an e situation,
4:30obviously.
4:31>> Um, so we're we're fast forwarding
4:33things that we might normally take our
4:35time with. Um, and that's why we're here
4:37on a Sunday afternoon. So, uh, again, I
4:40appreciate it. Um,
4:42>> we're going to do a pretty thorough
4:43interview today. Okay. Um, and the
4:45reason for that is because the last
4:47thing we want is to be calling people
4:49back again and again and again. Okay.
4:51>> Um, so what we're going to do is we're
4:52going to go over a number of things and
4:54uh, I'm going to explain what all those
4:55are to you. Okay.
4:57>> Um,
4:58>> I'm a big coffee guy. I don't know if
5:00you're a a coffee guy or not. I didn't
5:02want to drink in front of you. So,
5:03>> no, I appreciate that.
5:04>> All right. Go ahead. I could uh
5:06definitely Are they black?
5:07>> Yeah, they're just black with uh with
5:09sugar. Um
5:12I probably haven't a little bit.
5:14>> Sorry. What? Sorry.
5:15>> Gum. Just [laughter] piece of gum.
5:17>> Well, there's napkins there if you want
5:18to toss it or
5:19>> I appreciate that.
5:21>> All right. And again, um like I said,
5:22this interview is going to be very
5:23thorough. [clears throat]
5:24>> Um but again, uh I have a simple rule
5:27when I talk to people. It's uh I'm sure
5:29you're the same way. I treat everybody
5:30with respect. I don't know why I ask you
5:32to do the same for me. Um, so what we're
5:34going to do is we're going to start off
5:35by uh going through um what your rights
5:37are, okay?
5:38>> Just like everybody else, okay?
5:40>> Um, have you ever been read your rights
5:42before? I'm sure you've seen on TV a
5:44whole bunch of times, but that's usually
5:45the American version. So,
5:46>> I'll go over with you briefly. Okay.
5:48>> Um, basically in Canada uh as you know,
5:51I'm sure is uh we all have uh our rights
5:53guaranteed under the Charter of Rights
5:54and Freedoms. Okay. Now, uh, Russell,
5:57just to avoid any confusion because
5:58people do get confused when they're
6:00talked to by the police, is that, uh,
6:02um, you're obviously not under arrest
6:03here today. Okay? Anytime you feel, uh,
6:06you want to leave here, you feel free to
6:07do so. The door is not locked. Theresa
6:08will walk you down to the lobby anytime
6:10you want. Okay?
6:11>> Um, if there's anything that comes up in
6:14our interview today, Russell, that uh,
6:15that you feel you want to talk uh, to a
6:18lawyer about, um, you just, uh, you just
6:20let me know, okay? And the reason for
6:22that is I want to explain to you exactly
6:24what's going on here. Okay. Um
6:27Jessica uh Lloyd is um is one of four
6:31cases that we're currently
6:33investigating. Okay. Um and essentially
6:35what's happened is over the past uh
6:38about four or five months.
6:40>> Um there have been four occurrences,
6:43like I said, that we're looking into.
6:45>> Uh two of those occurrences occurred in
6:47September of 2009.
6:49>> Um and very briefly, they were up in the
6:51the Tweet area. Uh they involved uh
6:54somebody entering um two different
6:55women's houses um in the evening hours
6:58and uh committing sexual acts. Okay.
7:01>> Uh in uh November of 2009
7:05>> young lady by the name of uh Marie
7:07France Ko um
7:10>> was found uh murdered in her home in
7:12Brighton.
7:12>> Yeah.
7:13>> And um we believe that there was a
7:15sexual component to that crime as well.
7:17>> And um then most recently we have
7:20Jessica Lloyd's disappearance. Okay. So,
7:22essentially when you look at those kind
7:24of crimes, we're looking at a number of
7:26different uh potential criminal charges.
7:28All right. Um we're looking at issues
7:30all the way from the most serious one,
7:32which is first-degree murder,
7:34>> uh kidnapping, uh sexual assault, um
7:36break and enter with intent to commit
7:38sexual assault,
7:40>> um forcible confinement. Okay? And uh so
7:43what I want to make sure you understand
7:44and this is what we've been doing with
7:45everybody we've been talking to is that
7:47clearly when we find out who's
7:48responsible for one or all of those
7:50crimes uh they could be charged with one
7:52or all of those offenses. Okay? Whether
7:54it's you or whether it's anybody else.
7:55All right?
7:56>> And that's why it's important that we uh
7:59make sure that people understand what
8:00they have to do and what they don't have
8:01to do when they're talking to us. Okay?
8:03>> So as I said before, any point today uh
8:06you feel the need you want to speak to a
8:07lawyer, uh you let me know and uh we can
8:09take you to a room where you can do that
8:10in private. Okay.
8:12>> Okay.
8:12>> Um, do you have your own lawyer?
8:15>> I have a realy lawyer, but I don't have
8:18a lawyer.
8:18>> All right. Um, if at any point you want
8:21to make that call and you don't know who
8:22to call, uh, we have a phone list of
8:24lawyers that are available to give you
8:26advice free of charge right over the
8:27phone. Okay. So, again, if at any point
8:29today you want to take advantage of
8:31that, you just let me know.
8:32>> Um, is there any reason you want to call
8:34a lawyer now?
8:34>> No.
8:35>> Okay. Um, couple other uh fairly simple
8:38and straightforward uh things that uh
8:39you probably understand, but uh again we
8:41go over them to make sure everybody's
8:42clear
8:43>> is that uh you don't have to speak to me
8:45today. Okay.
8:46>> And the reason for that is because the
8:48law considers me to be what we refer to
8:50as a person in authority. Okay.
8:51[clears throat] Probably similar to what
8:53you may be considered to be on the base.
8:55>> Um and because of that, I can be
8:57compelled to appear before any judge in
8:58the country basically to account for
9:00what takes place here today between you
9:02and I. Okay. And that's the reason why
9:04everything's recorded. because there
9:06can't be any more accurate record than
9:08that, right? So,
9:09>> no. Understood.
9:10>> Um, and the other thing I want to make
9:11sure you understand is that uh, you
9:13know, you mentioned a second ago about
9:15Miss Como um, being one of your work
9:18associates. Um, so I don't know what's
9:20happened since November um, on the
9:22military side of things. Um, but what we
9:25want to make people clear on is that uh
9:27if you have been spoken to by any person
9:29in authority or any police officer about
9:30any of those cases, um, I don't want
9:33what they may have said to you to, uh,
9:35um, make you feel influenced or
9:37compelled to say anything to me today.
9:39Okay? Whatever you might have felt
9:40influenced or compelled to say to them
9:41earlier. You don't have to repeat it to
9:43me and you don't have to say anything
9:44further. Okay? But obviously what you do
9:46say,
9:47>> you know, for the third time is being
9:48recorded, right? So, um,
9:50>> you understood these first two attacks
9:52happened, uh, not that far from my place
9:54in two. Well, the [snorts] second one
9:55did.
9:56>> Yeah.
9:56>> We didn't even know the first one had
9:58happened, but, uh, I understand that was
10:00reasonably close as well, but the second
10:01one was, uh, was very close.
10:03>> Yeah.
10:04>> So, certainly at the time, JP did a, uh,
10:07a door to door.
10:08>> Yeah.
10:09>> Uh, within a couple of days, probably
10:11the same night. So, I spoke with a
10:12couple guys then.
10:13>> Okay. Um, yeah, and I'm I'm aware of
10:15that from looking at the different
10:16cases. And essentially, uh, Russell, in
10:20a nutshell, that's what we wanted to,
10:21uh, to talk to you about. Okay. U, those
10:23four cases are of concern to us.
10:26>> And, um, you know, you've kind of almost
10:28hit the nail on the head about some of
10:30our issues that kind of, uh, make us
10:32want to talk to to Russell Williams.
10:34Okay. Um, because essentially, uh, there
10:37was a a a connection um, between you and
10:41uh, and all four of those cases. Would
10:43you agree geographically?
10:46>> I guess I drive past Yes. I would have
10:48to say there was a a connection. Yeah.
10:50>> Yeah. And that's that's why um I'll be
10:53quite frank with you. That's why uh
10:55things kind of um uh evolved when uh the
10:58officers talked to you on Thursday
10:59night. Okay.
11:00>> Uh we kind of went from there because uh
11:02when I think you discussed with them the
11:04fact that you were a uh a colonel at the
11:08base,
11:08>> I was in uniform at the time. So
11:10>> yeah. So pretty obvious, right? Um, so
11:12essentially, uh, then the connection
11:14with Miss Como, um, was made, um, and I
11:18believe you're, uh, a door or two down
11:22from one of those two, uh, incidents,
11:24uh,
11:25>> three doors down. Yeah.
11:26>> Yeah.
11:27>> Very close. Absolutely.
11:28>> Yeah. Exactly. So, uh, those are some of
11:30the issues we wanted to discuss with
11:31you. Okay. Um, so, just getting back to,
11:35uh, these four incidents that we're
11:37talking about. Um maybe you could just
11:39give me a little bit of history as to uh
11:42your arrival in the uh in the base in
11:44Trenton. When did you start working
11:46there?
11:48Friday on the day I was um
11:54[clears throat]
11:59Friday on the day I was at home most of
12:01the time. Most of the day I had a sort
12:02of a stomach flu.
12:04>> Okay. In Ottawa or Tweed?
12:06>> In Tweed.
12:06>> In Tweed. Okay. Yeah.
12:08>> Uh, so we backtrack then
12:12>> so
12:14all day Friday you're at home.
12:16>> Yeah.
12:16>> And then what time do you leave to go to
12:19the base to sleep there on the Friday
12:20night?
12:21>> Um,
12:26not sure. Probably just, you know, went
12:28in for just before bed. Uh,
12:31I probably left tweet at between eight
12:33and nine or so.
12:34>> Okay. Um and you get to the base and
12:37spend the evening there and get up for
12:38the 5:30.
12:39>> Yeah.
12:40>> Okay.
12:40>> That's right.
12:40>> So we backtrack from there. Um you when
12:44did you arrive at your home uh at the
12:47cottage? Can I don't want to get
12:49confused between your home in Ottawa and
12:50the home. So
12:52>> I had been in Tweed all week.
12:53>> Yeah.
12:54>> Uh the week prior now. Um
13:00yeah, I think that's the case. was in
13:03tweet all week, flu Saturday, headed to
13:06Ottawa Saturday night.
13:08>> Okay. So, um if you didn't have the
13:11stomach flu on the Friday, what was your
13:14schedule that day?
13:15>> Really?
13:16>> Okay.
13:16>> Um
13:20what would have been my schedule? Just a
13:21standard schedule in the office.
13:23>> Okay.
13:23>> So, uh
13:26office brief in the morning, couple of
13:27uh
13:30couple of meetings. I can't remember
13:32what the specifics uh were going to be.
13:34>> Okay. So, um Thursday night you slept at
13:37Tweed or you
13:39>> Yep.
13:40>> All right. And what did you do Thursday
13:42during the day?
13:43>> Thursday during the day I was at the
13:44base again.
13:47Um
13:50I think it was a fairly standard day. I
13:52can't recall exactly but uh
13:56yeah nothing I was not flying so I was
13:58at the base. So I would have gone in
13:59early in the morning back in the evening
14:01again.
14:02>> Okay. Do you remember what time you left
14:03the base at me?
14:11>> I don't remember anything peculiar. So I
14:13would say uh
14:17I don't know probably 7 to nine
14:18somewhere in that range.
14:20>> Okay. That's when you you left
14:22>> left the base. Yeah.
14:22>> And what it was
14:23>> that's a 45minute transit. So
14:24>> 45 minutes home. Okay.
14:26>> Okay. Now, I'm not not going to walk you
14:28through November, but I'm going to take
14:29you to a date that's probably pretty
14:30fresh in your mind. Uh uh the day that
14:32uh that Marie Fron's com
14:35>> um do you remember how you found out?
14:37>> I do. Yeah, [clears throat] I was sent
14:38an email. Um
14:41[sighs]
14:42>> well, as soon as the uh the off staff in
14:44the base learned that you told me.
14:48>> Okay.
14:48>> So, I got an email. I can't remember if
14:50it was late at night, early in the
14:51morning. of a certain I saw it uh I want
14:54to say first thing in the morning
14:55because I had just come back from
14:56Ottawa. I was in Ottawa for um
15:02um a set of meetings on one of the days.
15:05I can't remember what what day of the
15:06week we're talking about, but uh
15:09yeah. No, I mean obviously one of your
15:12people gets killed, it gets your
15:13attention. So,
15:14>> absolutely.
15:15>> I very much remember that coming in.
15:17>> And how did you know Marie France
15:19Coleman? I'd only met her once. Um,
15:23she was on a crew uh I was on just after
15:25I got to the base.
15:27>> Okay.
15:27>> So, uh I can't even remember. I think it
15:29was a one-day trip. Uh I did a number of
15:32trips uh in Canada transporting um
15:36our um you know troops sort of first leg
15:39out of Edmonton. Uh you know we tend to
15:42hopcotch them across uh until they get
15:44into theater. So anyway, I I can't
15:47remember which trip it was, but uh we
15:48did a number of them out to Edmonton
15:50just to to pick up the troops, bring
15:51them to Trenton, and then uh put a fresh
15:54crew on and because we'd fly out and
15:56back in the same day, so pushing the
15:58edge of that and uh fresh crew on that
16:01continue on after a couple hour delay.
16:03>> Okay. Do you know uh roughly when that
16:05happened?
16:07>> Though we were on the same crew,
16:08>> the time you met her, the one time
16:09there. Yeah,
16:10>> it was soon after I got to the base. So,
16:12uh, I I don't remember exactly, but I
16:15would say in the first couple of months,
16:16so August, September.
16:19>> Okay.
16:20>> Um, now you got that email notifying you
16:22that something had happened.
16:24>> Uh, do you have uh any kind of a a clear
16:26recollection as to how your schedule was
16:28going that week?
16:32>> Well, I can't remember what again what
16:35day that uh the message came in. Just a
16:37second.
16:39Um,
16:46no. I can't remember what day of the
16:48week, but I um
16:50I just think there was a whole bunch of
16:52activity spun up as a result, obviously.
16:58I can't remember the day of the week.
17:00Um,
17:06I'm just trying to think through the
17:07news reports I read.
17:11No, I'm sorry. Sorry, I can't remember
17:13what day that was, but uh
17:19what I what we learned after the fact
17:20was that the um the MPs had learned
17:27uh of her death, I think quite a bit
17:30after her body had been discovered.
17:32>> Okay.
17:34So
17:37I think what have I sorry
17:46okay so I think if I remember correctly
17:49the MPs learned
17:51late that evening can't remember when
17:54obviously her body was discovered it was
17:56probably in the news reports but uh so
17:58they learned and then they passed it to
18:00offs that im so they immediately passed
18:02it to me.
18:03>> Okay.
18:03>> The MBS work for the wing operations
18:05officer. So they go, you know, through
18:06their chain of command and then as soon
18:08as the uh the duty watch officer had
18:10that information, she advised me.
18:12>> Okay. Um so again, that that particular
18:15week
18:16>> than some others.
18:17>> Right. Right. I'm sure it spread like
18:18wildfire.
18:19>> Um
18:21>> so that particular week, uh do you have
18:24any recollection? Well, for instance,
18:25when you got the email, uh do you
18:28remember where you worked?
18:29>> I was at home in Tweet.
18:30>> Okay.
18:31>> Yeah. Um, do you remember if that was a
18:33week that you were um reasonably stable
18:36in Treton or had you flown?
18:38>> No, I had been in Ottawa. I had been in
18:40Ottawa earlier in the week uh for some
18:43meetings over in uh in Gatnau for one of
18:46the um it's actually for the C7
18:48acquisition. I was project director when
18:50I was here in for that. So just some
18:52followup stuff for that.
18:54>> Okay. So, I had been here um
19:00at some point in that week. Again, I
19:02can't remember how the days all fell
19:03together, but um I seem to remember that
19:08I got this word shortly after having
19:11come back from Ottawa. Seems to me it
19:14was the same week. So, if we were to uh
19:16to, you know, do a similar uh
19:19investigation in your background, is
19:20there is there anything you can think of
19:22that anybody may have misinterpreted or
19:24anything uh in your history that
19:26somebody might say Russell Williams uh
19:29>> absolutely
19:30>> did this?
19:30>> No.
19:31>> Okay.
19:32>> Be very boring.
19:33>> What's that?
19:34>> It'll be very boring. [laughter]
19:36>> All right. Because essentially, that's
19:37what I'm looking at is it uh um
19:41you seem like a very intelligent person.
19:43I think you can see how um a surprise
19:47like that would um certainly some alarm
19:49bells in our investigation, right? Okay.
19:52>> Um
19:53so the next thing we need to cover off
19:55is uh well, I'll just ask you this
19:58straight out. Uh given the types of
19:59crimes we're investigating, uh do you
20:01get much chance to uh to watch
20:04television shows, CSI, things like that?
20:06>> I do watch uh I prefer Law and Order,
20:09but I do watch CSI occasionally. Yes.
20:11>> Okay. So you have an idea of obviously
20:13the forensic capabilities, things like
20:14that are out there.
20:16What would you be willing to give me
20:18today to help me um move past you in
20:21this investigation?
20:24>> What uh what you need?
20:26>> Well, um would you be willing to supply
20:29things like fingerprints, blood samples,
20:31things like that? Yeah.
20:32>> Okay. Um footwear impressions.
20:35>> Yeah.
20:35>> Okay. All right. Um I think that's what
20:38we're going to we're going to ask you to
20:39do. All right. Now, we have a process we
20:41have to go through to do that. Okay.
20:43>> Um, and for the blood sample, uh, I
20:45don't take the blood sample. We have
20:46specially trained officers that are
20:47trained to do that.
20:48>> Uh, I'm going to step out and make sure
20:50they're still available.
20:53>> Can [snorts] I assume you're going to be
20:54discreet?
20:56>> It's possible. Yeah.
20:58>> Cuz, uh,
21:00you know, this would have a very
21:02significant impact on the base if they
21:04thought you thought I did this. Well,
21:07uh, bottom line, Russell, that's one of
21:08the reasons we're here on a Sunday
21:10afternoon. Um, uh, the, uh, the military
21:13certainly be of great assistance for to
21:15us, especially in relation to Miss
21:16Cuomo's investigation. So,
21:18>> uh, that's certainly one of the things
21:19that went into our decision to to give
21:21you a call at home today and see if we
21:22could deal with this today.
21:23>> Okay.
21:23>> So, okay. Um,
21:31>> cuz it's tough to undo the rumor mill
21:33once it gets started.
21:39I appreciate that.
21:40>> Okay.
21:41>> Now that you've had some time to I I
21:43know we've been throwing a lot of things
21:44at you here, but now you've had some
21:45time to to think about things. Um is
21:48there anything uh that you're concerned
21:50about uh that buckle swab matching in
21:54any of those four residences? Um is
21:56there
21:58I guess let me explain you what I'm
22:00getting done here, Russell. Okay. Um
22:02this is a significant investigation. as
22:04you can as you can well imagine
22:07>> um that uh that DNA is going to be uh
22:10significant in our investigation both uh
22:12you know quite possibly to help you
22:14quite possibly to help us
22:15>> understood
22:16>> I don't know yet don't know what the
22:17result is yet
22:18>> um
22:20and I'll go back to the example I gave
22:22you because it's a very similar uh issue
22:23I think um and you talked about the idea
22:27of discretion here okay uh you talked
22:29about the idea that uh um you know I I
22:34think hopefully you appreciate the fact
22:35of how we approached you here.
22:37>> Y
22:37>> um and essentially uh we have no issues
22:40with that. Okay. Um we we talked
22:43recently about you know the whole idea
22:45of any unusual sex acts in your history.
22:47>> Um but another thing can often happen in
22:50cases like this is that people um become
22:53concerned about uh um things like
22:56extrammarital affairs
22:58>> uh indiscretions along those lines. Um,
23:03is there any contact that you may have
23:06had with any of those four women um that
23:09you may not want your wife to be aware
23:11of? Anything like that that we should
23:13know about to try and uh explain why if
23:17if your DNA is found that would help us
23:19understand why it may be there?
23:20>> Absolutely not.
23:22>> Okay.
23:23>> Can you think of any reason um why we
23:27would find your DNA in a load
23:28residences? Let's let's focus on well
23:30for instance uh house I believe let me
23:32just check the name there make sure I've
23:34got the right address talking about the
23:35house that was just uh a couple of doors
23:37down from you there in uh in Tweed
23:40>> a couple of doors down was Lori I don't
23:42know her last name but I don't know
23:44>> Mazakotti
23:45>> I don't even know what her last name is
23:46but uh
23:49there's the woman down the road three
23:52doors down her name is Lori I don't know
23:54her last make sure we're on the same
23:57page
24:02Okay. Uh my understanding is she lived
24:04at 76 Cozy Cove. Yeah. So she would be
24:06the one the second one uh the second
24:10incident on your on your road there. A
24:11couple of doors down. Ever been in her
24:13house?
24:16>> Nope.
24:17We met her once I think the first summer
24:22um we were there. It was 04.
24:25>> Okay. And that's what I'm getting at. I
24:26I again this is a credibility issue
24:29right because
24:31>> I don't want to come and see you two
24:32weeks from now and say you know Russ uh
24:35>> our CSI people in that house and uh are
24:37you familiar with how C uh DNA works?
24:42>> I think broadly yes I guess so. Um, one
24:45of the challenges we have in 2010 with
24:47DNA is it's become so u precise that um,
24:53I guess the best way to explain it is I
24:54can think back 15 years ago when I
24:56started in uh, in violent crime
24:59investigation. Yeah.
25:00>> Um, for us to get a DNA match, the
25:02sample we had to find was um,
25:05>> you know, probably would have filled
25:07half of one of these cups.
25:09>> You know, cuz they destroy so much of
25:10the the sample in in the testing. Um,
25:14essentially DNA has become more and more
25:16precise to the point where when you and
25:19I walked in this room earlier today,
25:21>> uh, we could have sat down, talked for
25:2330 seconds, walked out,
25:25>> CSI officer could have come in
25:28>> 3 4 days from now.
25:29>> Yeah.
25:29>> Did some swabs here and he would have
25:31found your DNA and my DNA and probably a
25:33lot of other people's DNA.
25:35>> Sure. Um, a little bit gross to think
25:37about, but essentially, uh, you know, as
25:39we talk, um, we, you know, a little bit
25:42of aspirate comes out of our mouth that,
25:44uh, that contains our DNA. Our blood or
25:46our skin cells contain our DNA.
25:48>> And that's what I'm getting at. If you
25:49were ever in Lor's residence,
25:51>> quite possibly, quite innocently, your
25:53DNA could be uh, in that residence. Has
25:56there ever been a time you've been in
25:57there?
25:57>> No.
25:58>> Okay. Um, what about the other lady down
26:02the road on uh
26:03>> I hadn't even heard that name, so no, I
26:05don't I don't actually know who that
26:07was.
26:07>> Okay. Have you ever v visited uh Marie
26:10France Como at her residence?
26:12>> No.
26:13>> Okay. All right. Um, so you're quite
26:15positive there would be no reason why
26:16your DNA would be in any of those three
26:18locations.
26:19>> Okay. Um, did you know Jessica Lloyd
26:22even in passing for any reason?
26:25>> No, I didn't hear hear her name till it
26:27was on the news. Okay. And the reason
26:29I'm asking that uh is because um I know
26:33you were asked that question on Thursday
26:35night and sometimes what we find and
26:38again this is one of those situations
26:39that can sometimes cause us to get into
26:41a lengthy investigation is somebody that
26:42maybe doesn't deserve it.
26:44>> Uh but what what can happen sometimes is
26:46they you know somebody gets stopped by
26:48the police like you did and they uh they
26:51get asked that question and people when
26:53they're stopped by the police they can
26:54be nervous. Okay. Um, so they blurt out
26:57an answer and then they start driving
26:59away and they go, "Well, why' I do
27:00that?"
27:01>> Because the problem is is that once they
27:03uh get asked again, then they feel
27:05compelled to maintain that answer
27:09for fear that if they change their
27:10answer, somebody could find it. You
27:12understand what I'm saying?
27:12>> I do.
27:13>> Okay. So, I want to make sure that's not
27:14happening here. I don't care what you
27:15said to the officers on Thursday night
27:17last week. Um, if there's any uh
27:20communication or contact between you and
27:22Jessica Lloyd, you've seen her picture,
27:24right? Around town.
27:25>> Yeah.
27:26ever seen her before?
27:28>> I don't. No, I would say I have not.
27:30>> Okay. All right. All right. And you
27:33mentioned something about uh doing some
27:35renovations at your uh at your property
27:37in Tweed there. Um I think you said
27:39something earlier about tearing up
27:40carpet. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Oh,
27:42yeah.
27:42>> Okay. When did all that happen?
27:44>> In 2004 or five.
27:46>> Okay. Any recent uh renovations? No.
27:49>> Okay. All right.
27:58Just want to make sure I'm covering all
27:59the bases here. Um,
28:05okay. What kind of tires do you have on
28:07your Pathfinder?
28:11>> I think um I think they're
28:14Toyo. Do you know the brand name or
28:17sorry the
28:19>> um I don't sorry the make is Toyota.
28:22Yeah.
28:23>> I don't know the model.
28:24>> Okay.
28:28>> See read this off to you. See if it
28:30rings a bell.
28:37Ever heard of uh does Toyo Open Country
28:41HTS?
28:42>> Yeah.
28:42>> Make any sense?
28:43>> Okay. When did you have those tires put
28:45on your Pathfinder?
28:48>> Well, it's the second version we've had
28:49of them. So, uh
28:54>> I think it might have been this past
28:55fall, but they replaced other ones we'd
28:58had on the same
29:00>> Okay.
29:00>> Well, Toyo, I can't say that they were
29:02the same exactly the same model, but uh
29:05our dealership here in Ottawa says
29:07they're very popular for the
29:08Pathfinders. Okay.
29:09>> And they were good. They last me a long
29:11time.
29:11>> All right. Um,
29:15I've had some I think you were talking
29:18about the the whole idea of the MPs uh
29:20helping us with our investigation and
29:21stuff like this. You have the same
29:23system as we do at our headquarters with
29:25the swipe cards.
29:26>> Um, one of the things uh one of our
29:29investigators did is they made a call
29:30while I was talking to you there. Um,
29:32because we were trying to work through
29:33that week of the uh the 23rd of
29:35November.
29:36>> Okay.
29:36>> Um, 23rd being the Monday, uh, 24th
29:39being the Tuesday.
29:40>> Okay. Um what what they've what they've
29:43told us is that um and I want to make
29:45sure I get this right is that uh on the
29:4823rd uh your swipe card was being used
29:51at the base. Okay.
29:52>> Okay.
29:53>> Uh on Tuesday 24th there was no use of
29:55your swipe card.
29:57>> Okay. And then on the uh the following
29:59days uh Wednesday, Thursday, Friday um
30:01there was what appeared to be average
30:03activity of your swipe card in the base.
30:05Does that make sense to you?
30:06>> It does. That that says that I was in
30:08Ottawa on the Tuesday.
30:10>> Okay. Do you remember where in Ottawa
30:12you were?
30:13>> Yeah, I was in Gatnau with uh as I said
30:16meeting about the uh C17.
30:18>> Okay. Um now again I want to be fair to
30:22you here. We're going back two months.
30:24Um are you sure that would have been the
30:26uh the day you were in Ottawa?
30:28>> Well,
30:30only because I wasn't at the base.
30:32>> Okay. So, I I can't remember honestly
30:35that that's the day I had the meeting in
30:36Ottawa, but uh if I wasn't at the base,
30:39it was because I was here.
30:40>> Okay. Now, if that is the day you had a
30:42meeting in Ottawa, um do you remember
30:45being at the base on the Monday uh the
30:4723rd and swiping your card in and out,
30:50do you remember what you would have done
30:51that evening to to to get to Ottawa for
30:53that meeting? Like, would it be uh
30:57>> I drove to Ottawa in the morning of the
30:59day of my meeting. So if it was the
31:00Tuesday then I would have left uh Tweed.
31:03It was a very foggy morning.
31:05>> Okay.
31:05>> Uh that morning and I drove in that
31:08morning.
31:09>> Okay.
31:09>> So I would not have been at the base
31:12uh the day I was in Ottawa because the
31:14meeting started at 8:30 or something.
31:16>> Okay. So you leave the base, you would
31:18have went home to to your residence in
31:20Tweed.
31:22>> Yep.
31:22>> And then you left Tweed in the morning
31:24and drove up to your meeting in Ottawa.
31:25Y Okay. Um, you leave the the meeting in
31:28Ottawa is a daytime meeting, evening
31:31meeting or do you remember?
31:32>> Uh, yeah, it was a a daytime meeting.
31:34Finished, I don't know, mid-afternoon or
31:36so.
31:36>> Okay.
31:37>> We had lunch and then uh finished. I
31:39think uh my wife and I had dinner cuz
31:41she was here for work and then I headed
31:43back.
31:44>> Okay. Um, well, that's these are the
31:46kind of things I'm trying to draw out
31:48here. That's helpful to us. Um, do you
31:50remember where you had dinner?
31:53Uh well, I don't remember exactly the
31:55restaurant, but it was in Westboro
31:56because that's where our house was being
31:57built at the time. So, we had dinner,
32:00you know, in a restaurant that we would
32:03expect to be able to frequent uh once
32:04the house was finished.
32:06>> Okay. Remember how you paid?
32:08>> Uh one of us was paid by Mastercard.
32:11Yeah.
32:11>> Okay. Are you sure about that or
32:14>> Pretty sure. That's normally how we uh
32:16>> Okay.
32:17>> We pay for meals.
32:18>> All right.
32:18>> Can't remember if it was me or my wife
32:19that paid, but one of us. Okay. And do
32:21you remember which restaurant it was
32:22again?
32:23>> No.
32:24>> Okay. All right. And you see where I'm
32:26getting at, right? I mean, that can be
32:28very helpful for us because if we can
32:29track
32:30>> uh that issue, right? We can we can put
32:33somebody paying for a meal at at a
32:35location.
32:35>> I was meeting with uh you know, 15
32:37people or so that day. So,
32:39>> Okay. What time did the meeting end?
32:44>> I would say between 3 and 4.
32:46>> Okay. And um are you sure that that's
32:48the same day you went out with your
32:49wife?
32:52Wow.
32:55I think so. Yeah, cuz she was here and
32:58uh
33:00I I think that was the day we went to
33:02this restaurant in Westboro. Yes.
33:04>> Okay. Um you finished dinner and do you
33:08remember what you did that evening?
33:09>> I would have driven back to Tweed.
33:11>> Okay. And you would have. Now again, I I
33:15know we're talking two months ago here,
33:16but do you remember specifically having
33:18dinner and then driving back to Tweed or
33:20uh do you remember are you just guessing
33:23here?
33:26>> No, not really guessing. I mean, I I
33:28believe that this night at this
33:30restaurant was following the meetings in
33:32Ottawa
33:34>> and I, you know, kissed my wife goodbye
33:36and headed back to Tweet to go to work
33:39the next day.
33:40>> Okay. Um,
33:42all right. The uh the tires that you
33:46have on your truck, right? The reason I
33:47asked you about that is there
33:49>> is there any time I mean you recall uh
33:52where you were stopped um by the
33:54officers there?
33:56>> Yes.
33:56>> Okay. Did they explain to you what the
33:58significance of
33:58>> That was her house.
33:59>> That was her house. Okay. So, you
34:00remember that location?
34:01>> Yep.
34:01>> Do you remember what the crossroad was
34:03or
34:04>> I don't think there was a crossroad.
34:06It's sort of just uh on the south end of
34:0837.
34:09>> Okay.
34:10um when you get stopped at that
34:12location, has there been a time in the
34:15recent uh one or two weeks that uh your
34:18vehicle has uh left that road for any
34:22reason whatsoever? Have you driven into
34:23a field with your vehicle at all? Um for
34:26any reason you can think of?
34:28>> No.
34:28>> Okay.
34:29>> We're now 80 minutes into this
34:30interrogation and something fundamental
34:32has shifted in the room. Smith has
34:34presented the tire tracks, the
34:36bootprints, the swipe card records, the
34:39witness account of an SUV near Jessica
34:41Lloyd's property. He has told Williams
34:44that search warrants are being executed
34:45at his home in Ottawa, which means his
34:48wife now knows something is happening.
34:50He has mentioned Marie France Ko's
34:52writings referencing Williams
34:53specifically. He has laid out with quiet
34:56precision an evidence picture that
34:58points in one direction, and Williams
35:00has said almost nothing. But in the last
35:02few minutes something has changed.
35:04Williams has asked about his wife and
35:06the way he asked I want to minimize the
35:08impact on my wife tells us that the
35:11calculation inside Russell Williams has
35:12shifted. He is no longer asking can I
35:15get out of this. He is asking what is
35:17the least damaging version of getting
35:19caught. Let's talk about what this
35:20moment means. And let's talk about the
35:23specific psychology of how Jim Smith got
35:25him here. For the first hour and 20
35:27minutes of this interrogation, Russell
35:29Williams has been doing what he has done
35:30his entire professional life. Managing
35:33information, managing perception,
35:35managing the room. He answers questions
35:37with precision. He volunteers nothing.
35:40When caught in a potential
35:41contradiction, he retreats to
35:43uncertainty. I'm not sure. I can't quite
35:46remember that may be the case. He
35:48presents himself as cooperative without
35:50actually cooperating. He is giving Smith
35:53the performance of an innocent man
35:54without providing a single piece of
35:56information that could help clear him or
35:58incriminate him. This is a highly
36:00sophisticated response to interrogation
36:02pressure. And it is exactly what you
36:04would expect from someone with Williams
36:06background, someone who has been trained
36:08in operational security, who understands
36:10the intelligence environment, who knows
36:12that the most dangerous thing you can do
36:13is volunteer information. But here is
36:16where Smith's strategy becomes
36:17brilliant. He is not trying to catch
36:19Williams in a lie. He doesn't need to.
36:21He is presenting evidence that is
36:23already sufficient. He is not asking
36:25Williams to help him build the case. The
36:28case is already built. What Smith is
36:30doing with extraordinary patience is
36:32waiting for Williams to reach the same
36:34conclusion and then he gives him a door.
36:37I want to minimize the impact on my
36:39wife. This sentence is the psychological
36:41turning point of the entire
36:42interrogation because it is the first
36:45genuine thing Williams has said in 80
36:46minutes. It is the first statement that
36:49reflects his actual interior state
36:51rather than a managed performance and it
36:53tells Smith who is listening for exactly
36:55this that Williams has found the frame
36:57within which confession is possible.
37:00Williams doesn't fit neatly into any of
37:02those. What makes him unusual and what
37:05makes this case so important for
37:06forensic psychology is the degree of
37:09compartmentalization that his offenses
37:11required. He committed 82 breakins. He
37:15photographed himself in stolen
37:16underwear. He maintained organized
37:19records. He escalated to violent sexual
37:22assault on two occasions before the
37:24assaults became murders. And he did all
37:26of this while commanding Canada's
37:28largest air base, managing hundreds of
37:31personnel, maintaining a functional
37:33marriage, and performing his
37:34professional duties at the highest
37:36possible level. This is not possible
37:38without an extraordinarily developed
37:40capacity for psychological
37:42compartmentalization.
37:44the ability to seal off one part of the
37:46self from another so completely that
37:48neither contaminates the other. Most
37:50people experience cognitive dissonance
37:52when their behavior conflicts with their
37:54self-image. The discomfort of that
37:57dissonance drives them toward
37:58resolution. Either change the behavior
38:00or change the self-image. Williams
38:03appears to have done neither. He
38:05maintained both cells simultaneously in
38:07completely sealed containers for a
38:09decade or more. The starting point of
38:12Williams offense history is the
38:13break-ins, specifically the theft of
38:16women's and girls underwear. This is
38:18worth examining carefully because it is
38:20not a random starting point. It is
38:23psychologically specific. Fetishistic
38:26theft of this kind has a well doumented
38:28profile in forensic psychology. It is
38:31almost always the behavioral expression
38:33of a paraphilia, a condition in which
38:36sexual arousal is conditioned to an
38:38object or scenario that is not
38:39conventionally sexual. In Williams case,
38:42the paraphilia appears to involve a
38:44combination of the underwear itself, and
38:46the act of secret entry, the violation
38:49of private space, the possession of
38:51something intimate that the owner
38:52doesn't know is gone. The escalation
38:55from theft to assault follows a specific
38:57pathway. The behavior initially provides
39:00sufficient gratification over time,
39:03weeks, months, years. It becomes
39:05insufficient. The person either stops
39:08which requires confronting the behavior
39:10or escalates. Williams escalated twice.
39:14And here is the psychological detail
39:16that is most chilling. After each
39:18escalation, Williams returned to his
39:20base, to his career, to his wife, to his
39:23house being built in Ottawa and
39:25continued functioning. The integration
39:27of violent sexual assault into his
39:29psychological routine was apparently
39:31seamless when Smith presents the tire
39:34track evidence. Williams response is
39:37really one syllable slightly raised in
39:40pitch carefully calibrated to convey
39:43surprise without committing to any
39:45subsequent denial. This is not the
39:47response of an innocent person. An
39:49innocent person told that tire tracks
39:52matching their vehicle were found near a
39:53missing woman's home would immediately
39:56generate explanation. I drive that road
39:58all the time. I might have pulled over.
40:00I was there for a legitimate reason. The
40:03innocent mind reaches for context
40:05because the innocent mind knows the
40:06context is benign. Williams offers
40:09nothing. He sits with the information.
40:12He processes it. He does not give Smith
40:14anything to work with. This tells us
40:16that William's intelligence is fully
40:18operational in this room. He understands
40:21exactly what the tire track evidence
40:23means and he is calculating correctly
40:27that any explanation he offers could be
40:29contradicted and would make things
40:30worse. He is managing and he will
40:33continue to manage until he can't.
40:36>> Um cuz I want you to rack your brain
40:38here. This is important. So,
40:40>> is there anything you can remember doing
40:41that uh you know
40:44>> would have caused you to to uh drive off
40:46the road? No.
40:47>> At that section of roadway?
40:48>> No, that's my early uh that's the early
40:51part of the highway and um just head
40:53north. It's about 30 minutes from there
40:55to uh probably 20 from there to my
40:58house.
40:59>> Okay. Um, would it surprise you to know
41:02that uh when the CSI officers were uh
41:06looking around her property uh that they
41:09identified um a set of tire tracks uh to
41:13the north of her property? Um looks as
41:15if the vehicle left the road
41:18>> and uh drove along the north tree line
41:20of of Jessica Lloyd's property. Okay.
41:22>> Okay. Um they took uh they examined
41:27those tire tracks
41:29>> and uh they have contacts in the tire
41:32business. Obviously tire tracks are a
41:34major source of uh evidence for us.
41:35>> Sure.
41:36>> Um shortly after um this investigation
41:40started, they identified those tires as
41:42the same uh tires on your Pathfinder.
41:45>> Really?
41:45>> Yeah.
41:48>> Okay.
41:48>> Okay. One of the other uh one of the
41:51other things that they do to try and
41:52identify the type of vehicle that may
41:54have left those tires well is they do
41:56two things. They they talk to witnesses.
41:58Okay.
41:58>> Um there was a uh a female police
42:01officer that actually drove by that
42:03location uh that evening
42:05>> and recall seeing an SUV type vehicle in
42:08the field to the north of Jessica
42:10Lloyd's house uh consistent with a a
42:12Pathfinder. Okay. Maybe consistent with
42:14other things but consistent with a
42:15Pathfinder.
42:17Um, and they uh what they also do to try
42:20and identify the type of the vehicle is
42:22they look at uh what they call the
42:24wheelbase width. Okay? Cuz different
42:26vehicles, different makes, models have
42:28wheelbase width. So they can take those
42:29two sets of tire tracks,
42:31>> measure the distance between them, okay?
42:33>> And determine
42:34>> what the uh the width is.
42:36>> And then they can enter that into a
42:38vehicle database and it will spit out
42:39the types of vehicles. Okay.
42:42um your Pathfinder's wheelbase width is
42:45very very close to the width of the uh
42:48of the tires uh that were left in that
42:50field. Okay. Um
42:54do you have any recollection at all of
42:56being off that road?
42:56>> I was not off the road. No.
42:58>> Okay. All right.
43:01Russell, um
43:04is there anything you can think of?
43:06Let's go talk about Marie France Como
43:09for a minute. Okay.
43:09>> Mhm. Is there any reason at all you can
43:13think of that during our investigation,
43:17obviously we're searching uh computers,
43:19uh things like Blackberries, right?
43:22Electronic devices, uh looking through
43:25houses for things that are in
43:27handwriting, written notes, diaries,
43:28things like that. Um, now I'm not at
43:31liberty to tell you what the content
43:32was, but is there any reason at all you
43:34can think of why Marie France Como would
43:38have specifically referenced you in some
43:40of her uh in some of her writings?
43:44>> Not at all.
43:45>> No.
43:47>> No. Absolutely not.
43:48>> Okay. Is there anything that she ever
43:50said to you that led you to believe that
43:52there might be something uh more than a
43:54passing interest with her towards you?
43:57>> Not at all. No. We spent, you know, one
44:00flight together talking, I'd go back
44:02occasionally and talk.
44:05>> No, I if that's the case, that's that's
44:09very surprising.
44:10>> Okay. All right. Um, you have any
44:12questions for me right now?
44:14>> No.
44:14>> Okay. I'm just going to step out and see
44:16how things are going. Okay. I mean, it
44:17is a Sunday, but there's probably 60 70
44:19people working on this file, so there's
44:21a lot of things happening. Sure. Uh, so
44:22let me go out and see what's happening,
44:23and then I'll uh I'll come back in and
44:25we'll hopefully continue. Okay.
44:28I told you when I came in here uh that
44:30I'm going to treat you with respect and
44:31I've asked you to do the same for me. Um
44:36we talked about the whole idea of how
44:37we've uh approached you here. Okay. Uh
44:40the trying to be as just read as
44:43possible.
44:44>> Okay. But the problem is Russell is
44:46every time I walk out of this room
44:48there's another issue that comes up.
44:50Okay. And it's not issues that point
44:52away from you. It's issues that point at
44:54you. Okay. And I want I want you to see
44:56what I mean. All right.
45:01This is the footwear impression
45:06of the person who approached
45:09the rear of Jessica Lloyd's house.
45:11>> Mhm.
45:12>> On the evening of the 28th and 29th of
45:14January. Okay.
45:16>> All right. Now, I want you to keep in
45:18mind that this is slightly smaller.
45:20Okay. In scale.
45:22>> Okay.
45:22>> Okay.
45:22>> All right. That's not to scale. That's
45:24the footwear is actually bigger. If you
45:26look here on the ruler, you'll see that
45:29uh 1 in is just slightly smaller than
45:31actual inch. Okay? But this is the way
45:33it prints off on the computer.
45:36>> I'm going move this over so you can see
45:38what I mean. All right? Cuz essentially
45:40when you're dealing with footwear
45:41impressions, um we have a gentleman on
45:43the OP who's uh basically worldrenowned.
45:46Uh his name is John Norman. And
45:48essentially with footwware impressions,
45:50uh, you're in a situation where you're
45:52you're pretty much in the area of of
45:55fingerprints. Okay?
45:56>> And essentially what we're talking about
45:58here is especially when you start adding
46:00in other pieces of of uh information
46:02that uh support
46:04>> uh an investigative position. Okay.
46:11>> This is a photocopy of the boot that uh
46:15you took off your foot.
46:16>> Yeah. just a little while ago. Okay.
46:18Now, I'm not an expert on footwear
46:21impressions, so I rely on the experts.
46:24Footwear impressions are very much like
46:26uh like fingerprint comparisons. Okay.
46:29You take a look at this print. And
46:31again, this is one print. This person
46:33walked through. There's several
46:34different prints to compare. So, we're
46:36going to get features off of one print
46:37to compare, features off another print
46:39to compare.
46:41>> These are identical.
46:47Okay.
46:49Your vehicle drove up the side of
46:51Jessica Lloyd's house.
46:53Your boots walked to the back of Jessica
46:57Lloyd's house on the evening of the 28th
46:59and 29th of January.
47:02Okay. You want discretion.
47:05We need to have some honesty. Okay.
47:08Because this is this is getting out of
47:10control really fast, Russell.
47:12Okay. really really fast.
47:30This is getting beyond my control.
47:34All right. I came in here a few hours
47:36ago
47:39and I called you the way I called you
47:40today because I wanted to give you the
47:41benefit of doubt. Mhm.
47:42>> But you and I both know
47:45you were at Jessica Lloyd's house, and I
47:48need to know why.
48:20I don't know what to say. That's
48:22>> Well, you need to explain it because
48:24this is the other problem we're having,
48:26Russell. Okay. Again, these decisions
48:28are made by me.
48:30>> Right now, there's a search warrant
48:32being executed at your residence in
48:34Ottawa. Okay. So, your wife now knows
48:37what's going on.
48:39There's a search war being executed that
48:41day of your residence in Tweed and your
48:43vehicle's been seized. Okay.
48:46You and I both know they're going to
48:48find evidence that links you to these
48:52situations.
48:54Okay. You and I both know that the
48:56unknown offender male
49:01on Marie France Como's body is going to
49:04be matched to you quite possibly before
49:07the evening's over.
49:09Okay. This is a major investigation. The
49:12Center of Forensic Sciences on call 24
49:14hours a day helping us with this. M
49:18>> your opportunity to take some control
49:21here and to have some explanation that
49:25anybody is going to believe
49:27is
49:30quickly expiring.
49:34>> Okay,
49:35we're applying the investigators now
49:38applying for a warrant to search your
49:40office.
49:43Right. These aren't decisions that we
49:45can say yes or no to. This is a
49:47practical steps in an investigation like
49:49this.
49:52And Russell
50:13Russell M.
50:15>> Listen to me for a second, okay? When
50:18that evidence comes in, when that DNA
50:20match, when that phone rings and
50:21somebody knocks on this door,
50:26your credibility is gone, okay? Because
50:28this is how credibility works. All
50:30right? And I know you're an intelligent
50:32person and you probably don't need to
50:33hear this explanation, but I also know
50:34your mind's racing right now. Okay? Cuz
50:36I've sat across a lot of people in your
50:38position over the years. Okay. The
50:41bottom line is is that as soon as we get
50:44that that piece of evidence that
50:46solidifies it,
50:47>> DNA. [clears throat]
50:48Okay. As soon as the expert
50:51in footwear impressions, the expert in
50:53tire impressions calls and says, "Yes,
50:57I've examined those and they're a
50:58match."
50:59>> Mhm.
51:01>> It's all over. Because as soon as that
51:04happens,
51:06where's your credibility? Where's your
51:07believability? You're just another uh
51:11and again don't take this wrong okay but
51:14you can see if you step outside this
51:16room in your mind and imagine how people
51:19are going to view you okay if the truth
51:23comes out after the clear evidence is
51:26presented to you when you finally go
51:29okay I'm screwed now
51:33>> what are we going to
51:43Russell,
51:45you know there's only one option. What
51:46do you What do you What other option is
51:48there?
51:49>> What's the option?
51:51>> Well, I don't think you want the cold
51:53blooded psychopath option.
51:59I might be wrong.
52:03Okay? Because don't get me wrong, I've
52:04met guys who actually kind of enjoyed
52:07the notoriety. Got off on it.
52:11Got off on having that label.
52:13Bernardo being one of them. I don't see
52:16that in you. If I saw that in you, I
52:18wouldn't be back in here talking to you,
52:19quite frankly.
52:27But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you got me
52:29fooled. I don't know.
52:36this is over.
52:40And it can have a
52:43a bad ending where Jessica's parents
52:47continue
52:49to wonder where her daughter's lying.
52:57And I don't know. I mean, obviously,
53:00there's a huge search still underway,
53:01and it'll continue.
53:04It'll continue until her body's found.
53:10That might even happen tonight for all I
53:12know.
53:16Once that happens,
53:19then I don't know what other card you
53:20would have to play.
53:30What are we going to do?
54:03Wrestle.
54:07What are we going to do?
54:14Call me Russ, please.
54:16>> Okay.
54:20What are we going to do, Russ?
54:47Is Jessica somewhere we can find her
54:49easily?
54:51Like, is this something where I can make
54:53a call and tell somebody to go to a
54:54location and they're going to find her,
54:55or is this something where we have to go
54:57and and uh
55:00take a walk?
55:26Which direction are we heading in here?
56:12Russ,
56:14>> maybe maybe this would help. Can you
56:16tell me what the issue is you're
56:18struggling with?
56:44What's the issue you're struggling with?
57:49>> [snorts]
57:49>> It's hard to believe this is happening.
57:55Why is that?
58:19Why is it hard to believe?
58:41It's just it's just hard to believe.
58:49Whose decision was it, and we're going
58:52to find out the answer to this anyway,
58:55but whose decision was it to issue the
58:57uh the directive to the base personnel
59:00that nobody had to speak to the police
59:02and to seek legal counsel before they
59:03were questioned?
59:08It's my
59:09>> You don't think that was
59:10>> My understanding that direction came
59:12from somebody that reports to you.
59:15>> What do you think they're going to say,
59:17>> Russ?
59:18>> No. No.
59:19>> What do you think they're going to say?
59:20All right. And and let's let's step back
59:23for a second here. Okay.
59:25I really don't think it benefits you or
59:27makes you look any better to start
59:29debating the little issues.
59:30>> But that is news to me.
59:31>> Okay.
59:32>> I have a legal officer that reports to
59:34me.
59:35>> Yeah. who may have given that direction.
59:37>> Okay.
59:37>> But that's the first time I've heard if
59:39that's true. That's the first time I've
59:40heard that.
59:41>> All right. And that may be the case. But
59:44how does it look?
59:48Right.
59:50We're not even dealing with something
59:51that's really even evidence cuz it's not
59:53needed. I mean, when you have you
59:54[clears throat] have DNA and all this
59:55other stuff,
59:56>> that's not even
59:57>> What was the direction? I don't recall,
59:59but it was something along the lines of
1:00:01of uh telling the people on the base
1:00:03that they didn't uh they weren't
1:00:05required legally to speak with police
1:00:07and they should seek legal counsel
1:00:08before they decided to speak. But
1:00:10>> well, if that was if that was actually
1:00:12said, it would not have been to the base
1:00:14at large. It it may have been to the
1:00:16individual, the uh the boyfriend who was
1:00:18the suspect.
1:00:20>> Okay. My understanding it went out to
1:00:22all personnel. Absolutely.
1:00:23>> Maybe maybe no only under your command.
1:00:24I don't know. It did. Okay. Okay. That's
1:00:26fine.
1:00:26>> I didn't never see it.
1:00:27>> That's fine. Now, let's get back to the
1:00:29issue. What's that?
1:00:30>> So, you talk about perception. My only
1:00:32two immediate concerns from a perception
1:00:34perspective are
1:00:37what my wife must be going through right
1:00:39now.
1:00:40>> Yeah.
1:00:41>> And the impact this is going to have on
1:00:43the Canadian forces. Where do we go?
1:01:03Russ, is there anything you want from
1:01:05me?
1:01:07Is there anything you want me to
1:01:08explain?
1:01:11Is there something missing that you're
1:01:12struggling with that I can shed some
1:01:14light on for you.
1:01:23>> I'm struggling with how upset my wife is
1:01:26right now.
1:01:27>> Russ, what are you looking for?
1:01:39I'm concerned that they're tearing apart
1:01:40my wife's brand new house. So am I.
1:01:46But if nobody tells them
1:01:49what's there and what's not, they don't
1:01:51have any choice.
1:01:54Computers will be brought to Microsoft
1:01:57in California. They'll be they'll be
1:01:59picked apart. You can't erase things
1:02:02from computers.
1:02:04It doesn't happen. I'm sure you've seen
1:02:06that. I'm sure that's pretty common
1:02:08knowledge these days. It just doesn't
1:02:09happen. There's they sell programs that
1:02:13uh to try and help people clean their
1:02:15computers of stuff. And our guys are
1:02:18pulling that stuff out all the time. The
1:02:19FBI is pulling that stuff out all the
1:02:21time.
1:02:31This investigation
1:02:32will end up costing no less than $10
1:02:34million.
1:02:38Easy.
1:02:42and they will say no to nothing.
1:02:46Any request
1:02:48this major case manager makes on this
1:02:50case, they've already been told it's
1:02:53approved. Don't even bother asking.
1:03:26So, what am I doing? Russ,
1:03:30I put my best foot forward here for you,
1:03:32bud.
1:03:39I really have. I don't I don't know what
1:03:41else to do to to m make you understand
1:03:44the impact of what's happening here.
1:04:04Did we talk?
1:04:08I want to um
1:04:13minimize the impact on my wife.
1:04:14>> So do I.
1:04:20>> So how do we do that?
1:04:22>> Well, we start by telling the truth.
1:04:53Okay. Okay.
1:04:57So, where is she?
1:05:20got a map.
1:05:22>> Um, is she close to where she lives?
1:05:25I've got maps of that general area.
1:05:32Which town is she near? Why don't we
1:05:34start there?
1:05:41I'm not sure if you give me a map of U.
1:05:44It covers Caligar down to the highway
1:05:50and over to Tweed
1:05:52and stuff. I'll show you. Let me see
1:05:55what I got here. I might have something.
1:05:58Is she inside? Outside.
1:06:27It's probably the biggest area I have
1:06:29there for us.
1:06:31>> Yeah, I need more. We need a real map.
1:06:33So, where am I going on the on here to
1:06:36get to her?
1:06:39>> In this block here.
1:06:41>> Okay. So, you're pointing to
1:06:43>> a detailed map of that area and I'll
1:06:44show you where she is.
1:06:46>> Okay. Is she close to a road?
1:06:48>> Yep.
1:06:49>> All right. Um,
1:06:52is it something where is she is she
1:06:54buried or is she somewhere where if you
1:06:56walked there you would you would fairly
1:06:58easily see her?
1:06:59>> It's her.
1:07:00>> Okay. So, she's south of seven. Uh, east
1:07:04of Tweed,
1:07:05>> west of 41.
1:07:06>> Mhm.
1:07:08>> And, uh, what's this road here?
1:07:11>> Not sure.
1:07:12>> Neither am I.
1:07:14>> Okay, I'll be right back. Okay. Do you
1:07:16want any water or anything?
1:07:18>> Sure.
1:07:19>> Okay, I'll be right back.
1:07:24How long has she been there for?
1:07:31A little over a week.
1:07:33>> Was it fairly quick from the time
1:07:36she left?
1:07:38>> Friday night.
1:07:40>> Friday night.
1:07:41>> Yep.
1:07:42>> So, where was she between Thursday night
1:07:44and Friday night
1:07:45>> in tweet
1:07:46>> with you?
1:07:47>> Yeah.
1:07:49>> How long was she alive for?
1:07:56almost 24 hours. Not quite.
1:08:00>> Okay,
1:08:02Russ.
1:08:04You're doing the right thing here.
1:08:07>> Okay.
1:08:08>> Well, again, my interest is in um making
1:08:13my my wife's life a little easier
1:08:16>> and her family as well. But
1:08:18>> well, we share that interest.
1:08:20>> But there's no uh your time in Ottawa is
1:08:23wasted really. I'll tell you where the
1:08:25memory cards are.
1:08:27>> Where are they?
1:08:29>> They're in the house there, but
1:08:31>> in Ottawa.
1:08:32>> Yeah.
1:08:33>> Whereabouts?
1:08:35>> Um,
1:08:38some in the camera bag, which they would
1:08:39have found in my office.
1:08:40>> Mhm.
1:08:42>> And in the when you walk into the office
1:08:44on the left side, there's a um
1:08:49desk drawers, set of drawers, like a
1:08:52filing cabinet. wooden IKEA
1:08:56in one of the top two drawers and
1:08:58there's a plastic divider.
1:09:00>> Yeah.
1:09:02>> And there's uh inside there there are
1:09:06two memory cards.
1:09:07>> Okay.
1:09:08>> Which are blank, but I'm sure they can
1:09:10be re
1:09:12>> And whose images are on those cards?
1:09:15Uh well, I've erased them, but I expect
1:09:19uh you'll be able to draw images of uh
1:09:23Jessica and I.
1:09:26>> What about Marie?
1:09:35>> There may be images on there as well.
1:09:37>> Okay. And the two women from September.
1:09:41>> Yep.
1:09:42>> Okay.
1:09:43Do you have those images stored anywhere
1:09:45else?
1:09:50>> Yeah, there are um two hard drives in
1:09:53the house in Ottawa.
1:09:57>> I can draw you a little picture.
1:10:00>> Sure. Do you want to do that now while
1:10:02I'm getting them out? Okay.
1:10:09You want anything to eat or anything?
1:10:15that with you. Okay.
1:10:35But I do want to talk to you again.
1:10:39That's the plan. Okay.
1:10:47I'll be right back.
1:11:04How you make it up there?
1:11:09Thank you.
1:11:12making out. Sorry.
1:11:22Somebody running around looking for an
1:11:24actual map, but uh they did the same
1:11:26thing with uh the Google maps. We just
1:11:29have to glue them up a little bit more.
1:11:32Um,
1:11:39this is the this is the biggest of the
1:11:41area.
1:11:44This might have better parameters for
1:11:46you. First tweet.7
1:12:02km from this intersection on this side
1:12:04of the road.
1:12:06And what road is that carry?
1:12:10South of can't read that word.
1:12:13Uh, East Hungerford.
1:12:16>> Does that make sense?
1:12:18Oh, there it is. There. Okay.
1:12:20>> How far off the road is she?
1:12:23>> 40 ft.
1:12:24>> She bar is she covered with anything
1:12:28wrapped up.
1:12:30>> She's on the surface. Just
1:12:33a gray something or cover. Okay.
1:12:38Barry, the obvious question I'm going to
1:12:40have for you is
1:12:44when they go there, and they'll be there
1:12:45shortly, [clears throat]
1:12:46>> they're going to find her.
1:12:48>> Oh, yeah.
1:12:48>> Okay. I'll be right back.
1:12:54You want to say something?
1:12:55>> Just that the this place, my wife, it's
1:12:58been a dream for
1:13:00better part of a year. So, I'm keen to
1:13:03get them what they need and so they can
1:13:04leave right on.
1:13:05>> Okay. Well, we're going to do our best
1:13:07to keep that as low key as possible.
1:13:09Okay. What do you want to talk about?
1:13:15>> Guess it's uh pretty wide open now. I
1:13:17>> Yeah.
1:13:18>> What do you want to know?
1:13:19>> Well, do you want to work forwards or
1:13:21backwards?
1:13:25>> Doesn't matter.
1:13:26>> Why don't we start with Jessica? Okay.
1:13:30>> How does that start for you?
1:13:35Um,
1:13:37I saw her in her house on her treadmill,
1:13:43Wednesday night, I guess.
1:13:48Then I noticed she wasn't um
1:13:51there Thursday.
1:13:55So, I got into the house, look around,
1:14:02then um
1:14:05and then left.
1:14:08Noticed she'd come home.
1:14:12So, I went back in
1:14:17through the uh back patio door
1:14:20while she was sleeping.
1:14:34Okay,
1:14:38so I woke her up.
1:14:52Didn't um
1:14:53didn't hit her. She only hit her once.
1:14:57Friday night.
1:15:14Okay.
1:15:23Well, so I raped her in uh in her house
1:15:30and then I took her to the car and took
1:15:32her to tweet.
1:15:45And um
1:15:51spent the day in Tweed
1:15:58and then I hit her uh as we were
1:16:02walking. She thought we were leaving.
1:16:09Hit her on the back of the head.
1:16:21Okay.
1:16:26Particular.
1:16:27>> Well, um, what did the hit on the back
1:16:30of the head do?
1:16:36>> Well, I was surprised it, uh, her her
1:16:39skull gave way.
1:16:42She was there and immediately
1:16:44unconscious
1:16:46and I strangled her.
1:16:49>> Okay.
1:16:51What did you hit her with?
1:16:53>> Flashlight.
1:16:55>> Okay. In the house or outside the house?
1:16:58>> In the house.
1:17:03>> Yeah. They'll find signs of that.
1:17:07>> Where in the house did this happen?
1:17:10in the main portion just in front of the
1:17:12fireplace.
1:17:14>> What do you mean they'll find signs of
1:17:15it?
1:17:15>> Oh, there's quite a bit of blood. I
1:17:17hadn't expected I'd expected to knock
1:17:20her out,
1:17:24but obviously generated a lot of blood.
1:17:27>> What did she bleed onto?
1:17:29>> The floor. It's just tile floor.
1:17:33>> Okay. Did you clean it up or did you
1:17:35>> I I wiped it up.
1:17:38I know it'll be easily spotted.
1:17:41>> Well, it makes you think that like if I
1:17:45walked in that house right now, but I
1:17:46see it.
1:17:46>> You wouldn't see it? Not at all. But,
1:17:48uh, you know,
1:17:51right? We'll uh we'll show it, I'm sure.
1:17:54>> Okay. Um, so when that happened, was she
1:17:58did she have clothes on or was she
1:17:59naked?
1:18:00>> She was dressed.
1:18:01>> Okay. So, when we find her, is she going
1:18:04to have those clothes on, too?
1:18:07>> All right. Um,
1:18:11okay.
1:18:14Marie France, uh, Como.
1:18:24There was an open window in the basement
1:18:26of her uh, her house when she was away.
1:18:31I went in there a couple of nights
1:18:33before she came home,
1:18:37looked around.
1:18:42I went back in there late at night when
1:18:44she was at home.
1:18:46Was on the phone in her bedroom.
1:18:55She actually discovered me in the
1:18:57basement.
1:19:00She was trying to get her cat to come
1:19:02upstairs and the cat was in the basement
1:19:05seen me and was fixated on me in the
1:19:07corner. She couldn't get the cat up. So,
1:19:09uh,
1:19:12she came downstairs to try and get the
1:19:14cat and
1:19:16I'm not sure why she uh came over to me.
1:19:19I guess the cat was staring at me and
1:19:21she was wondering why the cat was
1:19:22staring at.
1:19:26Lights were on.
1:19:35So when she spotted me, I um
1:19:40had the same flashlight.
1:19:42I subdued her,
1:19:48tied her up, brought her upstairs.
1:19:59and uh strangled her
1:20:04later in the morning.
1:20:10Well, suffocated her.
1:20:16Some tape
1:20:24left her there.
1:20:31How did you subdue her? And when you say
1:20:33subdued her in the basement, what did
1:20:34you do?
1:20:36Well, I had the same flashlight
1:20:39and um
1:20:42you know,
1:20:46she she saw me right away. So, it was
1:20:48just uh I hit her a couple of times and
1:20:51around her head, try and knock her out.
1:20:55Didn't, but um she was bleeding a little
1:20:59bit.
1:21:05eventually um
1:21:08after a struggle subdued her.
1:21:15>> Okay. Any blood from from that struggle?
1:21:18>> Oh, yeah. No, not not a whole bunch, but
1:21:21uh flashlight did break her skin a
1:21:25couple of times.
1:21:27>> Okay. What area of the basement did that
1:21:30take place in?
1:21:33I was hiding behind the furnace, so she
1:21:36spotted me right there.
1:21:39>> Okay. Did she recognize you?
1:21:41>> No, I had uh stuff on my face.
1:21:47>> Okay.
1:21:54Um
1:21:56so then you go upstairs and you said uh
1:21:59she suffocated.
1:22:01Well, I suffocated her. I put tape on
1:22:03her um I put tape on her mouth
1:22:07and then I put tape on her nose and
1:22:12held it there so she couldn't breathe.
1:22:19Okay.
1:22:21Um what kind of tape was it?
1:22:28>> What happened to it?
1:22:33Uh well, I took it with me and uh
1:22:43can't can't remember what actually I did
1:22:45with that tape, but uh probably threw it
1:22:48in the garbage.
1:22:51>> Did you use tape for any other purposes?
1:22:58>> No.
1:23:01Okay. Um, did she ever recognize you
1:23:04through this whole episode? No.
1:23:07>> What did you say you had on your face?
1:23:11Uh, just a a cover for my head. Just a,
1:23:15you know,
1:23:16sports
1:23:18pullover type like just a little cap
1:23:21kind of thing.
1:23:22>> Okay. just a
1:23:26you know
1:23:28wer or something
1:23:31and a um
1:23:34just a headband over my nose enough. So
1:23:38covered most everything but my eyes.
1:23:41>> Okay.
1:23:44>> Um now this flashlight where is that now
1:23:48>> in tweet
1:23:49>> in the house?
1:23:50>> Yeah. What kind of flashlight is it?
1:23:53>> It's a red uh 3D.
1:23:58I'm not sure
1:24:00what brand it is, but it's a metal. You
1:24:02know, one of these aluminum.
1:24:04It's like a big um
1:24:10I can't remember what brand
1:24:12aircraft aluminum
1:24:14flashlights already. Anyway, it's a big
1:24:17bigger one of those.
1:24:19Um, did you take anything out of uh
1:24:23Marie Franc's house or Jessica Lloyd's
1:24:25house?
1:24:27>> Uh, yeah. Some of their underwear.
1:24:31>> Okay,
1:24:32>> that's all.
1:24:33>> And where is that?
1:24:36Um,
1:24:43it's in some boxes
1:24:47in the basement here in Ottawa in that
1:24:50Rick room.
1:24:52So, we just moved in. So, there are
1:24:53boxes everywhere. So, on the same side
1:24:55as the furnished room,
1:24:58sort of in the back against the wall.
1:25:00Okay. What do the other boxes look like?
1:25:06Um, I think one's a scanner. The box for
1:25:09my scanner.
1:25:10>> Mhm.
1:25:13>> They're They're all right next to each
1:25:15other. So, quick look through the boxes
1:25:16there.
1:25:20>> Okay. How much underwear is in those
1:25:22boxes?
1:25:27Um,
1:25:31probably 60 pieces or so total.
1:25:33>> All women's.
1:25:35>> Yeah. 60 pieces of theirs.
1:25:39>> Of who's
1:25:40>> of Jessica's and uh
1:25:45Mar.
1:25:48>> So you took 60 pieces from between the
1:25:51two of them.
1:25:51>> Yeah.
1:25:52>> Okay.
1:25:55All right. Um, and they're in like when
1:25:58you talk about a scanner, is it a
1:25:59computer scanner box?
1:26:00>> Well, a computer scanner is up in the
1:26:02office and it's box is down in the
1:26:03basement. So,
1:26:04>> okay.
1:26:05>> It's inside that box.
1:26:07>> Is any of the underwear in those boxes
1:26:08belong to anyone other than Marie Fron
1:26:10or uh or Jessica?
1:26:14>> Um,
1:26:19yep. There's some from each of the other
1:26:21two women.
1:26:23>> Okay.
1:26:25uh why don't we talk about those two
1:26:27women. Um so the first one happened on
1:26:30the 16th and I don't know why I can't
1:26:34recall their names but uh
1:26:37the lady that was uh lived closer to
1:26:40you.
1:26:41>> No, Lori was closer to me. Okay.
1:26:49>> So the first uh the first one
1:26:53I had just spotted her
1:26:56from our boat. Actually,
1:27:01I got into the house while she was uh
1:27:04asleep. Noticed that she was alone
1:27:12and u
1:27:15just hit her with my hand while she was
1:27:17sleeping.
1:27:22subdued her
1:27:27mostly just my weight on top of her.
1:27:36Um,
1:27:38had her take off her pajamas,
1:27:42took some pictures,
1:27:45took some of her underwear, and left.
1:27:51And the other woman,
1:27:54>> same kind of deal. Went through the back
1:27:57of the house.
1:28:01She was sleeping in her um not in her
1:28:04bedroom, but in her, you know, front of
1:28:06the TV.
1:28:09Very much the same story.
1:28:13Anything
1:28:16different about that story? I mean,
1:28:18pretty much same story and exactly the
1:28:20same story or two different things,
1:28:21right?
1:28:21>> Yeah. No. Uh, not much different at all.
1:28:25Um, I did have the flashlight that time.
1:28:29I hit her with a flashlight
1:28:31and thinking it would knock her out.
1:28:34Didn't.
1:28:36So,
1:28:37I subdued her with my weight.
1:28:42Took off her clothes. took some pictures
1:28:43and left.
1:28:52Why do you think these things happen?
1:29:10Have you spent much time thinking about
1:29:11that?
1:29:12about why.
1:29:13>> Yeah.
1:29:15>> Yeah.
1:29:20>> But I don't know the answers,
1:29:27man. I'm pretty sure the answers don't
1:29:29matter.
1:29:31Well, let me let me ask you this. Did
1:29:33you like or dislike these women?
1:29:37>> I didn't know any of them.
1:29:38[clears throat]
1:29:40>> Okay.
1:29:42I had met Marie Francis that one time
1:29:44[clears throat]
1:29:45in that in our airplane.
1:29:48>> Okay. Now, I guess I guess I'm when
1:29:50you're going through these things, um
1:29:55are you Well, let me let's talk about
1:29:57Jessica cuz she was there with you for
1:29:59the whole day, right?
1:30:02>> What kind of feelings were you
1:30:03experiencing while you were with her
1:30:04that day?
1:30:21Oh, she's a very nice girl.
1:30:33>> Can you tell me why you killed her?
1:30:36Do you know why you killed her?
1:30:38>> Well, I think I killed her because I
1:30:40knew that uh
1:30:51her story would be recognized.
1:30:59Her story would be recognized. How do
1:31:00you mean?
1:31:03>> Well, cuz she knew I was taking
1:31:04pictures.
1:31:07Mhm.
1:31:14So because of the um two
1:31:20stories in tweed
1:31:25that would have been fairly
1:31:30been quite obvious.
1:31:35So, if you didn't take pictures, what
1:31:37would you have done with her?
1:31:42>> I don't know.
1:31:44>> I mean, she's at your house, right?
1:31:47Um,
1:31:49well, let me ask you this. Is it uh
1:31:53two lived, right, and two died?
1:31:58What's what was the difference in your
1:31:59mind between
1:32:01>> Well, the um
1:32:04the attention the first two got
1:32:08um
1:32:11was very much f focused on
1:32:15obviously
1:32:17or for obvious reasons uh pictures I
1:32:19took.
1:32:25So anybody else telling stories about
1:32:28pictures, right, would have been
1:32:32[snorts] a fairly straight line.
1:32:39Okay. But when when this thing happened
1:32:41with Marie France,
1:32:43it was was did you believe that you were
1:32:47already a suspect for what happened in
1:32:51Tweet?
1:32:51>> No.
1:32:54So what what were you concerned about?
1:32:59>> Well, because um
1:33:08I was pretty sure that uh
1:33:12you know she was serving military,
1:33:14right?
1:33:14>> Mhm.
1:33:16It would have been uh
1:33:19it would have been difficult for
1:33:21investigators to ignore
1:33:24that connection.
1:33:28>> Okay,
1:33:30>> we're now 80 minutes into this
1:33:32interrogation and something fundamental
1:33:34has shifted in the room. Smith has
1:33:36presented the tire tracks, the
1:33:38bootprints, the swipe card records, the
1:33:40witness account of an SUV near Jessica
1:33:43Lloyd's property. He has told Williams
1:33:45that search warrants are being executed
1:33:47at his home in Ottawa, which means his
1:33:49wife now knows something is happening.
1:33:51He has mentioned Marie France Ko's
1:33:53writings referencing Williams
1:33:55specifically. He has laid out with quiet
1:33:57precision an evidence picture that
1:33:59points in one direction. And Williams
1:34:01has said almost nothing. But in the last
1:34:03few minutes, something has changed.
1:34:05Williams has asked about his wife. And
1:34:08the way he asked I want to minimize the
1:34:10impact on my wife tells us that the
1:34:12calculation inside Russell Williams has
1:34:14shifted. He is no longer asking can I
1:34:16get out of this. He is asking what is
1:34:18the least damaging version of getting
1:34:20caught. Let's talk about what this
1:34:22moment means. And let's talk about the
1:34:24specific psychology of how Jim Smith got
1:34:26him here. For the first hour and 20
1:34:28minutes of this interrogation, Russell
1:34:30Williams has been doing what he has done
1:34:32his entire professional life. managing
1:34:34information, managing perception,
1:34:36managing the room. He answers questions
1:34:38with precision. He volunteers nothing.
1:34:41When caught in a potential
1:34:43contradiction, he retreats to
1:34:44uncertainty. I'm not sure. I can't quite
1:34:47remember that may be the case. He
1:34:50presents himself as cooperative without
1:34:52actually cooperating. He is giving Smith
1:34:54the performance of an innocent man
1:34:56without providing a single piece of
1:34:57information that could help clear him or
1:34:59incriminate him. This is a highly
1:35:01sophisticated response to interrogation
1:35:03pressure. And it is exactly what you
1:35:05would expect from someone with Williams
1:35:07background, someone who has been trained
1:35:09in operational security, who understands
1:35:11the intelligence environment, who knows
1:35:13that the most dangerous thing you can do
1:35:15is volunteer information. But here is
1:35:17where Smith's strategy becomes
1:35:18brilliant. He is not trying to catch
1:35:20Williams in a lie. He doesn't need to.
1:35:23He is presenting evidence that is
1:35:25already sufficient. He is not asking
1:35:27Williams to help him build the case. The
1:35:29case is already built. What Smith is
1:35:31doing with extraordinary patience is
1:35:34waiting for Williams to reach the same
1:35:36conclusion. And then he gives him a
1:35:37door. I want to minimize the impact on
1:35:40my wife. This sentence is the
1:35:42psychological turning point of the
1:35:44entire interrogation because it is the
1:35:46first genuine thing Williams has said in
1:35:4880 minutes. It is the first statement
1:35:50that reflects his actual interior state
1:35:52rather than a managed performance. And
1:35:54it tells Smith who is listening for
1:35:56exactly this that Williams has found the
1:35:58frame within which confession is
1:36:00possible. Understanding why Williams
1:36:02fixates on his wife is central to
1:36:04understanding his psychology. Mary
1:36:06Elizabeth Haramman, Williams wife, was
1:36:09by all accounts someone Williams
1:36:11genuinely cared about. She was
1:36:13professionally accomplished, respected
1:36:15in her own right, completely unaware of
1:36:17her husband's secret life. The
1:36:19revelation of what Williams had done was
1:36:21going to destroy her in every
1:36:22conceivable dimension, professionally,
1:36:24personally, publicly. For a man who had
1:36:27compartmentalized his criminal life so
1:36:29completely that his wife of decades had
1:36:31no idea it existed. Her suffering was
1:36:33perhaps the only external consequence
1:36:35that penetrated the psychological
1:36:37barrier between his two selves. The
1:36:39victims, the women whose homes he had
1:36:41broken into, the women he had assaulted
1:36:43and killed, existed in the sealed
1:36:45compartment of his criminal self. his
1:36:47wife existed in the other compartment,
1:36:49the legitimate one. And Smith, who is a
1:36:52psychologically sophisticated
1:36:54interrogator, understands this
1:36:56immediately. When William says he wants
1:36:58to minimize the impact on his wife,
1:37:00Smith does not push him toward the
1:37:01victims. He meets him where he is. So do
1:37:04I. So how do we do that? We start by
1:37:07telling the truth. This is the pivot.
1:37:09Smith has just reframed confession from
1:37:12betraying yourself to protecting your
1:37:13wife. And for Russell Williams with his
1:37:16specific psychological architecture,
1:37:18that reframe is the one that works. When
1:37:20Williams asks for a map, when he says,
1:37:22"Give me a map of that area and I'll
1:37:24show you where she is." What we are
1:37:26watching is a man crossing the line
1:37:28between two cells that have been kept
1:37:29separate for years. He is not confessing
1:37:32under duress. He is not breaking down
1:37:34emotionally. He does not weep, scream,
1:37:36or collapse. He asks for a map. He is
1:37:39precise about the coordinates. He tells
1:37:42Smith. Jessica is wrapped in a gray
1:37:43blanket on the surface 40 ft from the
1:37:46road can be found easily. This is
1:37:48Russell Williams confessing the way he
1:37:50has done everything with operational
1:37:52precision. And this tells us something
1:37:54important about the nature of his
1:37:55psychology. The confession when it comes
1:37:58is not an emotional release. It is a
1:38:00strategic decision. Williams has
1:38:03concluded correctly that the evidence is
1:38:05insurmountable that continued denial
1:38:07will make things catastrophically worse
1:38:09for his wife and that providing
1:38:11information now is the best available
1:38:13option. He is not overcome by guilt. He
1:38:16is executing a new strategy. What
1:38:18follows after Williams confirms where
1:38:20Jessica's body is, the detailed account
1:38:22of his crimes, delivered in the same
1:38:24measured, precise register that he uses
1:38:26to discuss military logistics, is one of
1:38:28the most clinically disturbing things
1:38:30ever recorded in an interrogation room.
1:38:32He does not minimize. He does not
1:38:34dramatize. He answers each question
1:38:37completely and accurately. He corrects
1:38:39Smith when Smith misunderstands a
1:38:41detail. He volunteers specifics the
1:38:43investigators didn't know to ask about.
1:38:46He is in his confession showing the same
1:38:48professional thoroughess that
1:38:49characterized his military career. This
1:38:52is not remorse. This is not catharsis.
1:38:54This is a man who has switched modes
1:38:56from protect myself to provide accurate
1:38:59information and is executing the new
1:39:01mode with the same competence he brought
1:39:02to the previous one. Forensic
1:39:04psychologists have a term for this
1:39:06quality, operational detachment. The
1:39:09ability to discuss events of extreme
1:39:11violence and violation as though they
1:39:12were logistical problems to be solved.
1:39:15It is one of the most reliable markers
1:39:17of a specific and dangerous personality
1:39:19structure. One in which other people
1:39:21exist not as full human beings but as
1:39:23objects within the offender's
1:39:24operational environment. The women in
1:39:27his confession, Marie France Kamo,
1:39:29Jessica Lloyd, the two women in Tweed,
1:39:31are described with the same neutral
1:39:33precision he would use to describe the
1:39:34maintenance schedule of AC17. They had
1:39:37characteristics relevant to the mission.
1:39:39They were present at certain times. They
1:39:42responded in certain ways. He processed
1:39:44them accordingly. This is the most
1:39:46chilling aspect of the Russell Williams
1:39:48case. Not the violence itself, as
1:39:50horrific as it is, but the complete
1:39:52absence of any register in which the
1:39:54humanity of his victims ever appeared to
1:39:56register.
1:39:58>> Makes sense. Um,
1:40:03let's go back to Jessica then. Okay. Um,
1:40:08you see her on the Wednesday night.
1:40:11Okay. On a treadmill. M
1:40:13>> how do you see her?
1:40:15>> She was in the basement window wide open
1:40:18on a treadmill as I drove by.
1:40:24>> Okay. Did Did you stop to look at the
1:40:27house or how how does that catch your
1:40:29eye as you drive by?
1:40:32>> Well, I was looking to see who was who
1:40:35is where.
1:40:37Don't know that area very well. So, I
1:40:40was just keeping my eyes open.
1:40:44>> Okay.
1:40:47>> So, you spot her on the Wednesday?
1:40:49>> Yeah.
1:40:49>> Um, do you just keep on going or did you
1:40:51stop and take a closer look that night
1:40:54or anything? No, I
1:40:56>> Okay. And you went back on the Thursday
1:41:00night, right?
1:41:01>> Yep.
1:41:04So, you go back on the Thursday night
1:41:07and you went you went into the house
1:41:09before she came home.
1:41:15>> Yeah, she was out.
1:41:18Okay.
1:41:20Those
1:41:25um Yeah, she was out. Got in through the
1:41:29kitchen window. It's unlocked.
1:41:31Everything else was locked.
1:41:36Okay. So, you're in there doing what?
1:41:42>> Looking around. Looking around to see
1:41:43who lived in the house.
1:41:46>> It was just her.
1:41:48>> Okay.
1:41:50>> And then what do you do?
1:41:59while I left the house
1:42:03and uh
1:42:13and she came home.
1:42:16I had been out of the house very long,
1:42:20so I watched for a little bit to see if
1:42:22she was alone.
1:42:26She was
1:42:37I went in and she went back to sleep.
1:42:39Actually went to sleep.
1:42:44>> Okay. So, you go in, she's sleeping and
1:42:47what do you do?
1:42:51[snorts]
1:42:53Well, I I snuck up to the side of her
1:42:55bed,
1:43:00expecting to uh
1:43:05try to knock her out.
1:43:09She woke up,
1:43:14but she did. As I said,
1:43:18I didn't hit her.
1:43:20>> What did you say?
1:43:23lie down on your tummy.
1:43:27>> Okay.
1:43:27>> She did. I tied her up.
1:43:31>> What' you tie her up with?
1:43:33>> Some rope by front.
1:43:37So, she's on her stomach. How are you
1:43:39tying her up?
1:43:40>> Just tying her hands behind her back.
1:43:43>> Okay.
1:43:45She got clothes on at that point.
1:43:46>> Mhm.
1:43:48>> What kind of clothes?
1:43:51sweats,
1:43:53>> right?
1:43:55Tie your hands behind her back and then
1:43:56then what happens?
1:43:59>> I took her clothes off.
1:44:05>> Okay.
1:44:15And then what happened?
1:44:20I raped her.
1:44:25>> A rape could mean a lot of different
1:44:26things. What kind of sexual act took
1:44:29place?
1:44:37>> Vaginal and oral.
1:44:40>> Okay.
1:44:42Oral.
1:44:43Who was performing the oral sex?
1:44:49Um,
1:44:52no. Me on her and her on me.
1:44:55>> Okay.
1:44:56[snorts]
1:44:57Any uh any condoms used or anything like
1:45:00that?
1:45:00>> No.
1:45:01>> No.
1:45:04So, and again, correct me if I'm wrong,
1:45:07vaginal intercourse,
1:45:10uh, her performing oral sex on you and
1:45:12you performing oral sex on her. Mhm. Do
1:45:14you remember what order those things
1:45:15occurred in?
1:45:17>> Yeah,
1:45:19I uh
1:45:22started with the oral sex
1:45:28then I raped her
1:45:31and then later on I made her
1:45:35for moral sex on me.
1:45:38>> Okay.
1:45:40Anything any kind of conversation
1:45:42happening when this is going on?
1:45:47>> Yeah, a little bit.
1:45:49>> What was being said?
1:45:54>> I threatened her before she uh
1:45:59before I had her
1:46:02perform oral sex.
1:46:06>> What did you say?
1:46:08Well, I put a zip tie around her neck.
1:46:13I said uh
1:46:16that I would pull it if I enjoyed what
1:46:18she would do.
1:46:20>> Okay.
1:46:23So, she did what you told her to do.
1:46:26>> Mhm.
1:46:27>> Any issues there? Any
1:46:30reason to pull it?
1:46:31>> No.
1:46:33So,
1:46:35do you remember if you ejaculated at
1:46:37that point or at any point?
1:46:39>> Um, not at that point, but later on.
1:46:42>> Okay. So, the oral sex finishes and then
1:46:46what happens next?
1:46:53Well, I continued to
1:47:00rape her and I had her put on some of
1:47:02her underwear,
1:47:05took some pictures, lots of pictures,
1:47:11and then uh got her dressed,
1:47:16brought back to the trip.
1:47:18>> Okay. At what point did you decide that
1:47:21she was going to leave with you?
1:47:30I'm not sure that wasn't um
1:47:33necessarily always the plan,
1:47:39but at some point uh I was there for
1:47:48three
1:47:50three hours. Three and a bit
1:47:58Okay.
1:48:02Um, do you remember the conversation
1:48:04about leaving? Was there any she say
1:48:07anything about that or
1:48:10what was she saying to you?
1:48:11>> She was um
1:48:18certainly cooperative.
1:48:22Okay.
1:48:30A cooperative can mean a number of
1:48:32different things. Was she excited about
1:48:33leaving with you? I don't want to be
1:48:35sarcastic, but um
1:48:37>> No, no, she just didn't put up too much
1:48:38of a fuss.
1:48:40>> Did she try and negotiate with you at
1:48:41all or
1:48:45>> What did she say?
1:48:47>> Well, I told her that I would uh
1:48:50let her go later on.
1:48:53Okay.
1:48:57So, when you take her out of your house,
1:48:58is she is she still bound or
1:49:01>> Yep.
1:49:02>> How how was that done?
1:49:04>> Just uh hands behind her back.
1:49:07>> Okay. What about her feet? Anything
1:49:09there?
1:49:11>> No, she was walking freely.
1:49:13>> Okay.
1:49:14Barefoot or?
1:49:16>> No.
1:49:16>> No. She had those brown suede shoes on
1:49:18that had been reported. Okay.
1:49:25So, where does she sit in your truck
1:49:26when you get to the truck?
1:49:28>> Front seat, passenger side.
1:49:31>> Okay.
1:49:33And where do you go?
1:49:36>> Straight to Tweet.
1:49:38>> Straight to your house in Tweet or
1:49:39straight to just the town?
1:49:41>> Straight to the house.
1:49:42>> No stops anywhere?
1:49:43>> No.
1:49:43>> Okay. What time do you remember what
1:49:45time you arrived there?
1:49:51I don't exactly, but I'd say between
1:49:544:30 and 5:30.
1:49:56>> Okay.
1:50:00All right.
1:50:03When you were uh when you were first
1:50:04there before she came home, do you
1:50:06remember
1:50:08did anybody come to the door at all when
1:50:09you were in the house? No.
1:50:14>> No. I think somebody had come home.
1:50:16somebody to come to the house just
1:50:17before she did cuz I thought it was her
1:50:20but then they left. I was outside at the
1:50:22time.
1:50:24>> Did you see who that person was or what
1:50:26kind of vehicle they were in or
1:50:26anything?
1:50:28>> Saw the lights. They assumed it was her
1:50:30and then all of a sudden they left. So I
1:50:32don't know what happened.
1:50:33>> Okay. Um where were you when that first
1:50:37vehicle pulled up?
1:50:39>> In the back back here.
1:50:41>> Okay.
1:50:43So you didn't have a view of the
1:50:44vehicle. You could just tell that there
1:50:45was a vehicle there. Is that fair?
1:50:47>> Okay.
1:50:50>> So, you get home about 4:35, you say?
1:50:55>> Okay. And then what happens?
1:51:02Uh well, she um she had to go to the
1:51:05bathroom
1:51:09and uh
1:51:11a quick shower, washer.
1:51:16Then we went into my bedroom
1:51:22and
1:51:25to sleep a little bit. She was tied up.
1:51:32How was she tied up at that point?
1:51:34>> The underd
1:51:39tape over her eyes from the beginning.
1:51:42So that's what she did.
1:51:44>> Okay.
1:51:47When they find her, is that tape going
1:51:49to be there or was it ever removed?
1:51:52>> No, I removed it.
1:51:54>> Okay. What kind of tape?
1:51:57>> Tape.
1:51:58All right.
1:52:02The duct tape that you used, where's
1:52:04where's that roll?
1:52:06Uh, it's all gone. But, um,
1:52:11I used it to I used the rest of it to
1:52:14bind her
1:52:16bind her body.
1:52:21>> So, by all gone, is it is it with the
1:52:23body now? Okay.
1:52:27So you said who went to sleep when you
1:52:28came home? You had a sh or she had a
1:52:31shower.
1:52:32>> Well, we both got in. I washed her off
1:52:34after she'd been to the bathroom.
1:52:36We both went to sleep,
1:52:39but she was tied up and I had tied the
1:52:41rope,
1:52:43you know, so I could fall asleep a
1:52:45little bit and
1:52:47she couldn't move without waking me up.
1:52:50>> I'm trying to picture how that would be.
1:52:52So the rope's tied to what on her? just
1:52:55tied her hands behind her back.
1:52:57>> Okay. And it
1:52:59>> and then the rope just wrapped around me
1:53:02a couple of times. So there was no
1:53:04slack.
1:53:04>> Okay. Do you remember how long you slept
1:53:07for?
1:53:08>> Not long. Maybe a couple hours.
1:53:11>> Do you know if she slept?
1:53:14>> I don't know.
1:53:17>> Okay. So you wake up and
1:53:18>> and it wasn't We were up and down, up
1:53:21and down. So, it wasn't two hours
1:53:24straight. It was two hours in bed, but
1:53:27it wasn't much sleep. Just lying there
1:53:30probably.
1:53:33>> So, you you get up from that and and
1:53:36what happens next?
1:53:42>> Um,
1:53:44she had a seizure
1:53:47actually.
1:53:52She felt it coming on and um
1:53:58cuz she'd had some before
1:54:04lasted uh
1:54:08quite a while. got her dressed
1:54:13into the family room. And
1:54:22anyway, she uh
1:54:25she recovered. She got u
1:54:30obviously stress
1:54:35but uh
1:54:40yeah probably
1:54:42probably went on for about 15 minutes
1:54:45of it.
1:54:54So, yeah.
1:54:55>> How do you know she had them before?
1:54:57>> She told me.
1:54:59>> Did she tell you why she gets them?
1:55:01>> Well, she suggested it was stress.
1:55:05Yeah. So, she felt herself,
1:55:08start to tense up and
1:55:11said she thought she was going to have a
1:55:12seizure.
1:55:20Yeah. Sorry. She was she was it was
1:55:24convulsions. That's what she was having.
1:55:28>> Okay.
1:55:30>> So, she recovered from that.
1:55:32>> Yeah. She um I stayed with her and
1:55:36talked her through it and
1:55:39make sure she
1:55:42bite her tongue.
1:55:47Okay.
1:55:51And then what happened?
1:55:54Well, then we had a little lie down
1:55:55right there cuz she was obviously
1:55:57exhausted.
1:56:01Put a cover over her and
1:56:05went to sleep.
1:56:11Wait for an hour or so.
1:56:14And I had told her um earlier that
1:56:17before I let her go, I wanted to take
1:56:19some pictures of her in her underwear
1:56:25and uh
1:56:31have sex with her.
1:56:41So after she'd had u a rest for an hour
1:56:44or so,
1:56:48I had her put on
1:56:55a number of different outfits she had.
1:56:58I'm sorry. Put on a number, you know,
1:57:00pairs,
1:57:04panties, bra that she had got taken from
1:57:07the house.
1:57:11So, she put those on and I took
1:57:13pictures.
1:57:15Okay.
1:57:20>> Are you in any of these pictures?
1:57:23>> Yep.
1:57:28>> What What kind of im What kind of images
1:57:29are you in?
1:57:35Um,
1:57:42while I'm with her, there's
1:57:46on the hard drives. You'll see there's
1:57:47video as well.
1:57:50So, there's video of the um
1:57:59almost four hours, I guess.
1:58:03of what?
1:58:10Well, of uh
1:58:18initially at her place of uh me raping
1:58:20her
1:58:25and then uh
1:58:29yeah, so I was running the video
1:58:32and then taking still pictures. So the
1:58:35video pretty much covers everything.
1:58:39>> Did you use video? at other places
1:58:43at M Frances as well.
1:58:46>> Okay. And is that video on the hard
1:58:48drives?
1:58:49>> Yeah.
1:58:50>> Same type of uh activity.
1:58:54>> Yeah.
1:58:56>> Although I didn't have her put on any
1:58:58stuff.
1:59:00>> Okay.
1:59:03So
1:59:04Jessica poses for these pictures and
1:59:06there's videos and um and then what
1:59:09happens
1:59:15then? Um I got her dressed cuz she
1:59:19thought she was leaving
1:59:24a bite to eat
1:59:26fruit.
1:59:30And then as we were walking out, I
1:59:32struck her on the back of the head.
1:59:37>> Okay. When did you decide to do that?
1:59:57>> [snorts]
1:59:58>> Well, I was uh pretty sure that I wasn't
2:00:00going to let her leave, but um
2:00:07yeah, the idea of striking her on the
2:00:10head was
2:00:13developed in the afternoon.
2:00:19And what was that strike supposed to
2:00:21accomplish in your mind? What was the
2:00:23intent of of doing that?
2:00:26>> Well, I thought I would be able to knock
2:00:28her out and then I was I was going to
2:00:30strangle her.
2:00:32>> Okay.
2:00:35So, when you actually do strike her,
2:00:36what what's the result?
2:00:40>> Her skull gave way a little bit.
2:00:45felt like and there was a lot of blood.
2:00:47So I think that's what happened.
2:00:50She was immediately unconscious
2:01:04and then I um strangled her.
2:01:09>> How'd you strangle her?
2:01:12>> Uh the same rope.
2:01:15Just put her on her neck.
2:01:17>> Okay.
2:01:19>> Well, she was u unconscious.
2:01:26>> Now, what happened to the zip tie that
2:01:28was around her neck earlier?
2:01:34I took it off uh
2:01:41around then, I guess.
2:01:48Did you take it off before you put the
2:01:49rope around her neck or or after? Do you
2:01:51remember?
2:01:52>> After she was dead.
2:01:55Oh,
2:01:55>> okay. So, the zip tie was around her
2:01:56neck while you used the rope.
2:01:58>> Mhm.
2:01:58>> Okay. [clears throat]
2:01:59Did you leave the rope around her neck?
2:02:02>> No.
2:02:03>> Okay.
2:02:05And how did you know she was dead?
2:02:14>> [snorts]
2:02:15>> She um
2:02:20well her body stopped moving.
2:02:27>> Okay.
2:02:29>> So what did you do after that?
2:02:33I uh I bound her up
2:02:37to
2:02:40there's field position
2:02:52and uh cleaned up the floor.
2:03:09No, you say you bound her up. Is that
2:03:10Are you referring to the duct tape that
2:03:12you talked about earlier?
2:03:13>> Yeah.
2:03:13>> Okay. So then what did you
2:03:20I um put her in the garage.
2:03:25It was very cold.
2:03:32And then I went into the base.
2:03:36>> Okay.
2:03:40>> Why'd you go to the base?
2:03:41>> Pardon me?
2:03:42>> Why'd you go to the base?
2:03:44>> Cuz I was flying early the next morning.
2:03:47>> Okay. So, what time did you leave to go
2:03:50to the base?
2:03:53>> I told you about between 9 and 10 or so.
2:03:57on the Friday night.
2:03:58>> Yep.
2:03:59>> Okay.
2:04:01So, you fly and
2:04:05>> then I drove home to Ottawa.
2:04:10>> So, which night would you?
2:04:13>> Saturday night.
2:04:14>> So, you land uh and
2:04:17what time are you landing?
2:04:19>> 6:30.
2:04:20>> Okay.
2:04:21>> Saturday night.
2:04:22>> Did you go by the house and tweet on
2:04:23your way to Ottawa? No.
2:04:27Um, so you drove straight home to
2:04:29Ottawa.
2:04:31What time did you get there at? You
2:04:32remember? Okay.
2:04:34>> Sometime before midnight. I can't quite
2:04:36remember, but uh I think I went in the
2:04:38office first. Did some work.
2:04:43So I think I got home auto just before
2:04:46midnight, something like that.
2:04:49I think not sure. I
2:04:54I slept for a little bit at at the Tim
2:04:56Hortons in Brockville,
2:04:58so it might be later. I honestly can't
2:05:00remember when I get back home, but Okay.
2:05:02>> Yeah. Midnightish
2:05:05Saturday.
2:05:06>> Mhm.
2:05:19So, you get home, you're in Ottawa, what
2:05:22do you do? Go to bed or
2:05:24>> Yeah.
2:05:25>> Stay up. Okay.
2:05:27So, then what do you do the next day?
2:05:33Well, my wife and I did some stuff. I
2:05:36can't remember what uh
2:05:39what was going on that day.
2:05:43putting together the new house
2:05:48and I headed back to tweet that night.
2:05:52>> Mhm.
2:05:54>> Is that right? Sorry. Um,
2:05:59no, I did. I had uh I had Monday off.
2:06:05That's right. I had Monday off and then
2:06:06I was visiting uh one of the units in
2:06:08Ottawa on Tuesday. So, I didn't head
2:06:12back to Tweet till Tuesday night.
2:06:15>> Okay. [clears throat]
2:06:20So, you get back to Tweet and what
2:06:23happens next?
2:06:27>> I uh took Jessica's body to that spot.
2:06:31>> Okay. That happened on Tuesday night.
2:06:35Just this past Tuesday, obviously. Okay.
2:06:38>> Do you remember what time that was?
2:06:41It was pretty late. It was um
2:06:43midnightish.
2:06:45I'd say between midnight and 1
2:06:48on uh
2:06:50Wednesday morning.
2:06:53>> Okay.
2:06:54Um
2:06:57what made you decide to to measure that
2:06:59distance
2:07:00that 7 km?
2:07:04>> That's just the way I am. Numbers
2:07:07have to know the numbers.
2:07:10Okay.
2:07:12>> And um how did you leave her?
2:07:18>> I just left her technically behind a um
2:07:20a fairly large rock.
2:07:25>> Is that duct tape still on her?
2:07:28>> And
2:07:30what else is on her? Couple of towels
2:07:33wrapped around her head
2:07:36and uh the top and pants. She was
2:07:38wearing jeans.
2:07:41Okay.
2:07:44Did you ever go back there?
2:07:46>> No.
2:07:48Right.
2:07:54>> Um what other type of cleaning and
2:07:56things like that did you do? Anything
2:07:58else to kind of cover your tracks you
2:08:00can think of?
2:08:03I vacuumed the house and I uh wiped the
2:08:06the floor. Washed the floor.
2:08:09>> Okay.
2:08:12>> What about your truck? Did you do
2:08:13anything with that?
2:08:15>> Just the
2:08:18wash today cuz it was a mess and
2:08:21vacuum.
2:08:23Okay.
2:08:33Um,
2:08:36so Marie Fron,
2:08:40when did uh when did it first occur to
2:08:42you to go to her house?
2:08:50Uh,
2:08:53probably in October.
2:08:56October, November, not quite sure, but
2:08:58somewhere in that time frame.
2:09:06And do you you remember why you that you
2:09:09thought to
2:09:10um to do that?
2:09:19Uh well,
2:09:21you know, she had said she lived alone
2:09:26when the one time I met her.
2:09:28>> Mhm.
2:09:42Um,
2:09:46just trying to understand why her
2:09:48versus, you know, the dozens of other
2:09:50women you probably come across on a
2:09:52daily basis.
2:09:58I don't know.
2:10:09Yeah, I went out there when she wasn't
2:10:11home just to see where she lived. And
2:10:17>> when did you do that?
2:10:20>> A couple of nights before.
2:10:23>> How'd you know her address?
2:10:28I was a nominal roll for the basement.
2:10:31Okay.
2:10:34So, when you go out there a couple of
2:10:35nights before, do you remember what
2:10:36night that was when you were there the
2:10:38first time?
2:10:43>> I don't. Uh, but I It was within two or
2:10:46three nights, I think.
2:10:49>> Okay. Well, no more than four, anyway.
2:10:52Something like that.
2:10:54>> And did you actually go into her house
2:10:55on that occasion or did you uh Okay. So,
2:10:58what happened that night? How'd you
2:10:59how'd you get into our house?
2:11:01>> This window on the side of the basement,
2:11:04side window.
2:11:05>> Okay.
2:11:08Just a backst step a bit. How did you
2:11:09get to our house that that first night
2:11:11you went there?
2:11:14>> I drove.
2:11:15>> What did you drive?
2:11:19>> Uh I think I drove my truck.
2:11:23What kind of finder?
2:11:25>> Do you remember where you parked it?
2:11:29Yep. I parked it. Um
2:11:32there's a bit of a division in the
2:11:35residential areas there. I parked it on
2:11:37another side
2:11:396 700 meters away.
2:11:42>> Okay. So, not on her street on a
2:11:44different street. Do you remember what
2:11:45street you parked on?
2:11:46>> No, but it's uh actually it might be the
2:11:48same street, but there's an interruption
2:11:49in the street where there's a
2:11:51construction zone. So,
2:11:53there's a pathway in between. So, I
2:11:56think it's probably the same street.
2:11:58>> Okay.
2:12:00So, you uh you go to her house and when
2:12:03you went there that night, did you know
2:12:05that she was away?
2:12:10>> Uh I'm not sure if I knew entirely, but
2:12:12I I I think I thought she was away.
2:12:16>> Okay.
2:12:17Is that based on her schedule or or how
2:12:20would how would you know? Uh, well, my
2:12:23Yeah, cuz I fly with a squadron. I have
2:12:26access to the schedule and
2:12:28>> Okay.
2:12:29>> It's a slightly different schedule she
2:12:30has, but that's probably how I am.
2:12:33>> You don't know for sure.
2:12:38>> I think that's probably how I am.
2:12:40>> Okay. So, you go to her house
2:12:44>> and what do you do that night? The first
2:12:46night?
2:12:49I looked around and uh
2:12:55I make sure that she was living there
2:12:57alone.
2:13:03>> And I'm sorry. Did you say I can't
2:13:05remember if you said how did you get in?
2:13:07>> Same same way. It's about side basement
2:13:10window.
2:13:11>> Side basement window. Okay. Do you
2:13:13remember what kind of window it is? like
2:13:14what made it uh
2:13:15>> well I just noticed it was well notice
2:13:18the flashlight I could see that it was
2:13:19not locked it had been open slightly
2:13:23so I removed the screen so that it open
2:13:25went in
2:13:27>> okay
2:13:28so you go in and uh you're in her house
2:13:32figuring out she lives alone and uh do
2:13:34you do anything that night
2:13:40>> yeah I was playing with her uh
2:13:44underwear.
2:13:50>> You mean playing with her underwear?
2:13:56Wearing it.
2:13:58>> Okay.
2:14:00Doing anything else?
2:14:07No, I didn't didn't touch her stuff.
2:14:14What do you mean you didn't touch her
2:14:15stuff? I mean, you touched her
2:14:17underwear, but
2:14:18>> Yeah. Yeah.
2:14:19>> Nothing else.
2:14:21>> Did you take any of the underwear with
2:14:22you that night?
2:14:25>> Yeah, a few pieces.
2:14:28>> Where did you find the underwear when
2:14:29you went in?
2:14:32>> Drawer.
2:14:36>> Was it clean? Was it used?
2:14:39Clean. Okay.
2:14:42Um,
2:14:44anything else you can remember doing
2:14:45that evening that you
2:14:48>> No.
2:14:49>> All right.
2:14:53So, um,
2:14:55after that first visit, did you return
2:14:57again before meeting up with her?
2:15:00>> No.
2:15:01>> Okay.
2:15:04So, which day did you go to her house
2:15:08when she was there?
2:15:13Well, the night before I went to Ottawa,
2:15:15so I think that was Monday night.
2:15:21>> All right. Um, so let's walk through
2:15:24that. What time do you think you got
2:15:25there?
2:15:29>> About 11 or so. Probably 10:31.
2:15:33Okay.
2:15:38Yeah. So, she was on the phone in her
2:15:40room.
2:15:44I could hear that uh from the backyard.
2:15:49I got in through the uh side window,
2:15:53>> the same basement window.
2:15:54>> Mhm.
2:15:56>> How could you hear from the backyard?
2:15:58What was uh just
2:15:59>> hear her on the phone
2:16:02from beside beside the house?
2:16:06hear through the wall that she was on
2:16:07the phone.
2:16:08>> Okay. Any idea who she was talking to or
2:16:11what she was talking about? No. Didn't
2:16:13>> hear that well.
2:16:15>> Okay. So, you go in through the basement
2:16:16window
2:16:18and what are you wearing when this is
2:16:20happening?
2:16:29Sweatshirt and
2:16:33jockers, I guess.
2:16:35and the uh two pieces on my head. Okay.
2:16:41>> Where are those two pieces now?
2:16:43Pieces that you wore on the head.
2:16:49>> Uh they're probably in my bag in my
2:16:52luggage bag and Edison in the bedroom.
2:16:56>> What's your luggage bag look like?
2:16:59It's a
2:17:01blue
2:17:02duffel bag type thing. It's right beside
2:17:05the bed.
2:17:07>> Is it the only blue duffel bag in your
2:17:09bedroom?
2:17:09>> Mhm.
2:17:11>> Um, and these pieces, what do they look
2:17:13like again?
2:17:15>> It's a blue headband.
2:17:18>> Okay. standard blue, you know, winter
2:17:21headband
2:17:22and black
2:17:26skull cap type thing.
2:17:29>> Any insignas or anything on them?
2:17:31>> Yeah, there are, but I don't know what
2:17:33they are.
2:17:34>> The blue headband has something
2:17:35stitched,
2:17:39a name of some sort stitched on it.
2:17:43And the uh skull cap has some sort of
2:17:46emblem on white emblem on the black.
2:17:48>> Don't know what it is.
2:17:49>> Are they like sports emblems or company
2:17:52emblems or
2:17:53>> Well, it's the manufacturers.
2:17:57>> Okay.
2:17:59Anything else in that blue uh duffel
2:18:01bag?
2:18:04I think so.
2:18:06>> Is it full of of things other than
2:18:08>> just just my clothes?
2:18:09>> Okay.
2:18:11Um,
2:18:14so you go in, uh, do you remember what
2:18:17you had on your feet
2:18:21in the house there
2:18:23>> when you went to Marie France's house?
2:18:27>> Probably running shoes.
2:18:29There wasn't snow on the ground.
2:18:34>> So, you go in and you're in the basement
2:18:38and uh, whereabouts in the basement are
2:18:39you?
2:18:44um by the furnace.
2:18:46>> Okay. And what are you doing? What what
2:18:49uh what's your what's your sort of plan
2:18:50at that point?
2:18:52>> I was waiting for her to go to bed.
2:18:55>> Okay. And how long did that take?
2:18:58>> Well, she did and then she came down
2:19:00looking for the cat.
2:19:04>> All right.
2:19:06And uh what happens next?
2:19:10As I described, I subdued her gave her a
2:19:14flashlight.
2:19:20Essentially
2:19:24wrestled her to the ground and tied her
2:19:26up.
2:19:31Okay. And
2:19:32>> what did you use to tie her up?
2:19:34>> Same rope. Green rope.
2:19:37It's in tweed.
2:19:40Is it just grain or like uh How long is
2:19:43this piece of rope?
2:19:45>> It's probably um
2:19:4820 ft. It's
2:19:51a boat boat rope. It's got some red
2:19:53specks in it, I think.
2:19:56>> Okay.
2:19:58Is there lots of ropes in Tweet or is
2:19:59this probably the only rope?
2:20:04>> No, this uh there are two two lengths.
2:20:10two lengths of the same green rope. And
2:20:13were they both used?
2:20:16>> Uh, well, I I only ever had one with me,
2:20:18so I don't know if I used the same piece
2:20:21both times or not, but only two lengths
2:20:24of rope.
2:20:25>> Okay. So, you tie her tie her up. How
2:20:28did you tie her up when you obviously do
2:20:30that?
2:20:32>> Okay. And what is she wearing at that
2:20:34point?
2:20:35She wasn't wearing anything to start
2:20:37with.
2:20:39>> So when she came down to the basement,
2:20:40she had no clothes on.
2:20:42>> She had some sort of a shawl over her
2:20:44shoulder.
2:20:45>> Okay.
2:20:46>> She immediately dropped when she saw me.
2:20:50>> Did she say anything when she saw you?
2:20:54>> She did. She
2:20:56called out, "You bastard."
2:21:01>> Okay.
2:21:03And then what happened?
2:21:07Then I subdued her as I described
2:21:09>> by hitting her with that red flashlight.
2:21:13>> Okay.
2:21:14>> Although they were more glancing
2:21:17glancing blows cut her skin but weren't
2:21:21doing much else.
2:21:23>> Okay.
2:21:23>> She fell over and then I said
2:21:27she tripped. Okay.
2:21:30>> How did you tie her at that point? Like
2:21:32I know you used the rope, but what were
2:21:34what did you tie her up up like?
2:21:36>> Just told her to put her I pulled her
2:21:38hands behind her back and just tied her
2:21:41wrists together.
2:21:42>> Okay.
2:21:44And then then what happened after that?
2:21:47>> Then I took her upstairs.
2:21:54>> Did she go upstairs under her own power
2:21:56or did you carry her? No, she passed out
2:21:59um on the stairs
2:22:04and then I carried her up.
2:22:08>> Why do you think she passed out?
2:22:11>> I specked uh
2:22:14from the heads to her head.
2:22:20>> So you carried up to where?
2:22:22>> To her bedroom. Put her on the bed.
2:22:24>> Okay.
2:22:27And then what happened?
2:22:37Uh
2:22:39well, as I described, I think I
2:22:43she on the bed. I raped her
2:22:46over a period of time.
2:22:50>> Okay. And again, just to be specific,
2:22:52what what sex acts took place?
2:22:55>> Just vaginal.
2:22:58>> Your penis and her vagina?
2:23:00>> Yeah.
2:23:01>> Any condom use?
2:23:02>> No.
2:23:03>> Did you ejaculate?
2:23:05>> No.
2:23:07>> Did you ejaculate at any point with her?
2:23:09>> No.
2:23:11>> Okay.
2:23:14Um,
2:23:16just before I forget, you I think I
2:23:18asked you,
2:23:20don't mean to bounce around on you here,
2:23:22Russ, but with Jessica. I asked you
2:23:25about ejaculation. You said you didn't
2:23:26at that point. When did you ejaculate
2:23:28with Jessica?
2:23:30>> Um,
2:23:32the second time or third time that I had
2:23:36her
2:23:38foral sex.
2:23:41And was that at her residence or yours?
2:23:44>> Hers.
2:23:44>> Okay.
2:23:46>> Any other times that you ejaculated with
2:23:48her?
2:23:50>> Okay.
2:23:51>> Um,
2:23:54when you ejaculated with Jessica, did
2:23:56you use anything to clean up or?
2:24:00>> No.
2:24:04>> What happened to the ejaculate?
2:24:08>> You swallowed it. Okay.
2:24:12Um, so getting back to Marie Fron, it's
2:24:15just straight vaginal sex, no condom, no
2:24:18ejaculation. Is that right?
2:24:20>> Yeah.
2:24:20>> Okay.
2:24:22Um, how long does that go for?
2:24:26Like how long were you engaged in that
2:24:28activity?
2:24:33Uh [sighs and gasps] couple well
2:24:38hour and a half, two hours.
2:24:41>> Okay. And then what happens next?
2:24:48>> Well, as I described, I suffocated her
2:24:51using um duct tape.
2:24:58>> Why did you decide to to do that?
2:25:08Well, again, because of the pictures
2:25:12as I described to you, it would have uh
2:25:16it was going to be a pretty straight
2:25:17line back to tweak.
2:25:22>> Okay. But why why why did you decide to
2:25:25use that method versus something else?
2:25:40I had uh
2:25:43thought about strangling her earlier.
2:25:52That's on the video.
2:25:54What is
2:25:56>> my uh
2:25:59Well,
2:26:03it was a short short-lived attempt cuz
2:26:05she struggled quite a bit
2:26:10and then I
2:26:13decided that I needed to suffocate her.
2:26:19So there was a shortlived attempt at
2:26:21strangler.
2:26:23And what's on the video? The suffocation
2:26:24or the strangling?
2:26:26>> Well, just me putting my hand on her
2:26:28throat
2:26:36and then her responding
2:26:40surprise very aggressively.
2:26:44Okay.
2:26:45any videos of the uh the suffocation
2:26:48part or pictures of that?
2:26:53>> Um, now you you mentioned that you
2:26:55brought the rope with you. Where did the
2:26:56duct tape come from?
2:26:58>> I brought it.
2:26:59>> Okay.
2:27:01And what did you do with it afterwards?
2:27:06>> I think it uh
2:27:09did it stay in tweet.
2:27:12>> What color duct tape are we talking
2:27:14about? I know it comes in a variety of
2:27:15colors, but
2:27:16>> gray
2:27:16>> gray.
2:27:19Um,
2:27:22so before
2:27:24uh the suffocation, um, obviously, how
2:27:26long do you think you were with her
2:27:30from the point Well, how long do you
2:27:32think you were in that house from the
2:27:33point you went in that window to the
2:27:34point you left?
2:27:39>> Probably um,
2:27:424 hours.
2:27:43Okay.
2:27:45So, correct me if I'm wrong. Did you say
2:27:47you were got there at 11:00 or around
2:27:5111?
2:27:52>> I think that's right.
2:27:54>> Okay.
2:27:55So, you left around 3:00 in the morning.
2:28:02>> Well, I was in the basement for quite a
2:28:04while before she came down. I She wasn't
2:28:08going to bed. So, I was probably in the
2:28:10basement for 30, 40 minutes. Okay.
2:28:14>> So,
2:28:16by the time
2:28:19she saw me, it was probably closer to
2:28:21midnight.
2:28:23>> All right.
2:28:25Um,
2:28:27but I didn't have a watch on, so I'm not
2:28:28sure.
2:28:33>> Any gloves?
2:28:42I don't think so.
2:28:45>> Did you wear gloves with Jessica?
2:28:48>> Uh, only to get in the house.
2:28:51It's a very cold night.
2:28:56>> And what about the two women in uh in
2:28:57Tweed?
2:28:59>> No.
2:29:02So, while you're with Marie Frrawns,
2:29:06what kind of conversations are taking
2:29:07place? Anything in she said to you stick
2:29:10out in your mind?
2:29:11>> No, I taped her mouth.
2:29:14There's no conversation.
2:29:16>> Okay. When did you tape her mouth?
2:29:20[sighs]
2:29:20>> As soon as I got her up to the bedroom.
2:29:23>> Why did you decide to do that?
2:29:25because she was uh
2:29:32you know quite aggressive.
2:29:36>> In what way?
2:29:37>> I was confident she was uh would have
2:29:40screened given the chance.
2:29:46>> What way?
2:29:46>> She did initially.
2:29:48>> Did she? Okay.
2:29:49>> In the basement.
2:29:51>> So, in what way was she aggressive?
2:29:53>> Well, just in
2:29:54You know, when she discovered me, she
2:29:57was very vocal,
2:30:00screamed quite a bit
2:30:03until I subdued her, so I expected she
2:30:06would scream again given the chance.
2:30:10>> Okay.
2:30:12>> Do you remember how you left her
2:30:13residence?
2:30:18>> Back door,
2:30:20patio door.
2:30:23Okay.
2:30:25Did you take anything with her that
2:30:27night?
2:30:29>> Some of her underwear.
2:30:32>> Anything else?
2:30:35>> All right.
2:30:37Um, did you do anything else to try and
2:30:40uh cover your tracks with me, France?
2:30:50Um,
2:30:54well, I had turned off my Blackberry
2:30:56before I left Trenton.
2:31:00Other than that, no.
2:31:05>> Do you remember trying to destroy any
2:31:07kind of evidence there or anything you
2:31:09thought may have uh produced evidence or
2:31:12anything?
2:31:13>> I took her sheets off the bed and ran
2:31:15them through the laundry.
2:31:18Okay.
2:31:20>> Like the laundry where at
2:31:22>> in her house.
2:31:24>> Okay. Did you run them completely
2:31:25through? Did you wait for it to finish
2:31:26or?
2:31:27>> No, I just put them in and put a whole
2:31:30bunch of bleach in and let it go.
2:31:33>> Okay.
2:31:35So, the night you went to her house and
2:31:36got there at 11:00, you came from where?
2:31:41>> Like you said, you left Trenton. You
2:31:43turned off your Blackberry.
2:31:48Did you talking about the base or you
2:31:50talking about uh where did you leave to
2:31:52go to her house?
2:31:53>> Well, no. I just turned off my
2:31:55Blackberry before I left the Trenton
2:31:56area.
2:31:59Um I would have left from the base after
2:32:01work.
2:32:04>> All right. When did you turn when did
2:32:05you uh what time do you think you turned
2:32:07your Blackberry off?
2:32:13Well, it's only a half hour drive to
2:32:14Brighton, so
2:32:18yeah,
2:32:20probably in the 9 9:30 range. Okay.
2:32:24>> Do you remember what uh
2:32:26what time you would have turned it back
2:32:28on?
2:32:30>> When I was back on the 401 heading to
2:32:31Ottawa the next morning.
2:32:34>> What time would that have been?
2:32:35>> So,
2:32:376 plus or - 30 minutes.
2:32:40Okay. So, you leave her house 3ish?
2:32:44>> No, I think it was later at the night.
2:32:45So, the 4 hours obviously was
2:32:49I think uh
2:32:52I think it went in about 11:00.
2:32:55Was in the basement for quite a while.
2:32:58Probably left her house closer to 4 4:30
2:33:01somewhere in there.
2:33:04>> Okay. And where do you go?
2:33:09Uh, I drove to Ottawa.
2:33:11>> Straight to Ottawa.
2:33:13Yeah.
2:33:14>> Did you go by your house and tweeted or
2:33:15anything or did you just go straight?
2:33:17>> No.
2:33:18>> What route you took?
2:33:22>> Uh, yeah. 41. But from her place, uh,
2:33:29I think I went straight north on, uh,
2:33:31whatever the road is that goes straight
2:33:32through Brighton up to the 41. Hit the
2:33:3441 and headed east.
2:33:38Okay.
2:33:40>> And so you're going to what's the
2:33:43meeting you're having that day in
2:33:44Ottawa? Remind me. It's a meeting on the
2:33:47C17 acquisition project.
2:33:49>> Okay. And who ran that meeting?
2:33:52>> The project manager, Miss uh Sue Hail.
2:33:57>> Okay.
2:33:58>> Is that the only meeting around that
2:34:00time period you would have went to on
2:34:01that issue was Sue
2:34:02>> Hail?
2:34:04There wasn't like a weekly meeting or
2:34:06anything like that. Okay.
2:34:07>> No, this is sort of a quarterly.
2:34:10>> All right. Um,
2:34:14so the night you went the night this
2:34:16happened, um, where did you park uh that
2:34:19night?
2:34:23As I said, across the gravel little
2:34:25roadway. Probably it's probably the same
2:34:27road. Okay. Similar location to the
2:34:29first night.
2:34:31>> Yep. Okay.
2:34:34All right. Same same vehicle.
2:34:39>> Yeah. Truck.
2:34:41>> Okay.
2:34:43All right. Um
2:34:48Okay. Let's talk about uh the Well,
2:34:51seeing as we're going backwards in time
2:34:52here, why don't we talk about the second
2:34:54incident in Tweed um
2:34:59with Lori Masakotti.
2:35:02one that's uh a 76 Cozy Cove.
2:35:11>> How did you uh decide on her?
2:35:16>> I knew she lived alone.
2:35:20That's it.
2:35:21>> How did you know that?
2:35:26cuz she went three doors down and uh
2:35:30didn't know her but I knew she was
2:35:33pretty lonely. She had boyfriend and
2:35:37hadn't seemed to be hadn't been around,
2:35:47you know,
2:35:49looked in the window and she was alone.
2:35:52So she she had a boyfriend but he wasn't
2:35:55too frequent. Okay.
2:35:57>> Well, he was she told me that they were
2:35:59fighting so that's why he had been
2:36:01>> Okay.
2:36:04So um
2:36:09did you look in her house before the
2:36:12night that this this incident happened
2:36:14or when did you do that? I had been in
2:36:16uh
2:36:18within a week,
2:36:21probably a couple of nights earlier.
2:36:24>> What did you do that night?
2:36:28>> I um
2:36:31I looked around to see if there were any
2:36:35permanent signs of her boyfriend, I
2:36:37guess.
2:36:41took
2:36:43one or two pieces of underwear.
2:36:50So,
2:36:54okay.
2:36:56So, the night you go there, um, when the
2:36:59incident happens, uh, you remember what
2:37:01time that was?
2:37:03>> It was pretty late. Um, I probably got
2:37:06into the house around midnight. She was
2:37:09asleep on the couch, although I didn't
2:37:11know that, but I knew she was in there.
2:37:15>> And how'd you get in? Sorry.
2:37:17>> Uh window in the back of the house.
2:37:20>> Was it a little
2:37:22sun room?
2:37:24>> Was it just something you had to slide
2:37:26or or how did you remove the screen and
2:37:29uh slide it up?
2:37:31>> Okay.
2:37:36So, I got into the house and uh
2:37:40she was asleep in front of the TV.
2:37:48>> Wearing anything on your face that
2:37:49night?
2:37:50>> Yep. Same things.
2:37:52>> Okay. The headband and the uh the cap.
2:37:55Okay.
2:37:57Um
2:37:59what kind of clothes did you have on?
2:38:02>> Just dirt. switched her pants.
2:38:07All
2:38:07>> right.
2:38:09So, she's asleep on the couch. You're in
2:38:11there and then what happens?
2:38:14[snorts]
2:38:16>> We have been through this.
2:38:17>> I know.
2:38:18>> I struck her with the uh flashlight
2:38:20thinking it would knock her out. It
2:38:22didn't. We struggled. I subdued her,
2:38:26took some pictures, left. It's probably
2:38:28in the house.
2:38:322 and a half hours.
2:38:36That's a pretty short description for 2
2:38:38and 1/2 hours.
2:38:42>> Well,
2:38:44we talked. I uh
2:38:51I told her I wasn't going to hurt her.
2:39:00I um I told her that there were other
2:39:03guys in the house robbing her.
2:39:08My job was just to control her.
2:39:20What did she say to that?
2:39:24She was scared.
2:39:28worried she was going to be seriously
2:39:30hurt.
2:39:34>> Did she say that or did you just assume
2:39:36that?
2:39:37>> Oh, no. She said that she was
2:39:44she was worried she was going to be
2:39:45killed. I said, "I'm not going to kill
2:39:46him."
2:39:50What did you do with uh You said you
2:39:53took pictures of her. Um, clothed,
2:39:55unclothed.
2:39:57>> Uh, both. Clothed Ashley and then
2:40:02unclothed.
2:40:07>> Are you in any of those pictures?
2:40:10>> I don't think so.
2:40:12>> You just took them or her?
2:40:14>> What kind of camera are you using, by
2:40:16the way? But, uh,
2:40:20>> it's a digital uh, son.
2:40:23You just have the one camera.
2:40:25>> Yeah.
2:40:26>> And the video camera
2:40:29>> also they're two separate.
2:40:30>> Yeah.
2:40:31>> Some cameras take take video, right? Um
2:40:34and where is the camera and the and the
2:40:37video camera
2:40:41>> and tweed?
2:40:45>> Is it the only camera and video camera
2:40:47in that house?
2:40:49>> Yep.
2:40:50>> Okay.
2:40:52All right. Um,
2:40:55did you take pictures of her? And how do
2:40:57you end up leaving?
2:40:59Like you uh
2:41:02I just told her to uh
2:41:07I don't know, count or wait for u
2:41:11number of minutes before uh
2:41:14before she called the police.
2:41:16>> Okay.
2:41:18>> And did you leave immediately or did you
2:41:20stay there for a while? I thought
2:41:21>> see what she was going to do or
2:41:23>> I left.
2:41:25>> Um, and where do you go?
2:41:27>> Home.
2:41:28>> Straight home.
2:41:31>> Did you
2:41:33Did you wait to see if the police showed
2:41:34up or anything or
2:41:37>> No.
2:41:39It's So, what did you do when you got
2:41:41home?
2:41:41>> Couple hund feet.
2:41:44I went to sleep.
2:41:46Okay.
2:41:48>> What did you do the next day?
2:41:52wanted to work normal time.
2:41:55Okay. Couple hours later.
2:42:02All right. Um,
2:42:06do you remember how uh her clothing was
2:42:09removed?
2:42:12[snorts]
2:42:15Uh, well, cuz her hands were tied behind
2:42:17her back, I think I cut off her top.
2:42:19and then pulled off her bottom. What did
2:42:22you use to cut her top?
2:42:25>> Um,
2:42:30I can't remember if it was a knife or
2:42:33like a folding X-Acto knife or
2:42:36Leatherman or one of the two.
2:42:39Are these items that are in your house
2:42:41in Tweet?
2:42:42>> Yep.
2:42:43>> Okay. Was there ever any other time you
2:42:46used a a knife to cut off clothing or
2:42:49anything else? Do you remember?
2:42:53>> I cut off Jessica's uh top with a knife.
2:42:57So her hands were tied behind her back.
2:43:00That's all.
2:43:02>> Okay. Where's that knife? Which knife
2:43:04did you use?
2:43:05>> That was a Leatherman.
2:43:06>> That was Leather.
2:43:07>> Tweed.
2:43:08>> Is it the only Leatherman in in Tweet?
2:43:10Mhm. Okay.
2:43:12Um,
2:43:14so on the 16th of September,
2:43:18uh, when you went in that night, was
2:43:20that the first time you've been in her
2:43:21house?
2:43:22>> Yeah.
2:43:23>> Okay. And why her
2:43:26just cuz I had seen her? And
2:43:29she was cute.
2:43:32That's it.
2:43:34Okay.
2:43:36So there was no
2:43:38um you didn't go into her house before
2:43:40that that night?
2:43:41>> No.
2:43:43>> All right.
2:43:45Um
2:43:46so you go in and how did you get into
2:43:48her house?
2:43:52>> Side window.
2:43:54The uh
2:43:56was not locked.
2:43:58Cut the screen. Slid the window. Curled
2:44:01in.
2:44:02>> Okay.
2:44:05And uh what you're wearing?
2:44:08>> Same. Switch your dark pants.
2:44:12>> And the same hat and
2:44:15Okay.
2:44:17Uh
2:44:19and where do you find uh in bed? Sleep.
2:44:24>> Okay. And what do you do?
2:44:28stood over her for a while and I u hit
2:44:31her on the left side of her head just
2:44:33with my hand.
2:44:38Just woke her up. He struggled.
2:44:45Yeah. just lay on her
2:44:53and
2:44:55very much like I described a little bit
2:44:57ago,
2:44:59took off her
2:45:01pulled her top down
2:45:04and took off her pants,
2:45:06took some pictures, left.
2:45:09Do
2:45:10>> you remember her saying anything to you?
2:45:12>> Yes.
2:45:14>> What did she say to her?
2:45:16all kinds of things. Um,
2:45:21you know, she had a
2:45:23a young baby just uh next door the other
2:45:28room, 8 months or so.
2:45:32Obviously concerned about the baby,
2:45:36concerned for herself. I assured her I
2:45:38was not going to hurt her
2:45:42physically.
2:45:53Um, any underwear taken from or Lori?
2:45:58>> Yep, both.
2:46:00>> And where would they be located?
2:46:02>> In Tweed.
2:46:06>> Okay.
2:46:10And why are they in Tweed as opposed to
2:46:12uh um Marie Frrawns and Jessica's
2:46:15underwear?
2:46:27Do you remember how much of their
2:46:28underwear you took?
2:46:31Um,
2:46:38not very much from Lori.
2:46:41Did they know that you took their
2:46:42underwear?
2:46:44>> I don't know.
2:46:46You didn't discuss it with them or
2:46:47anything?
2:46:50Um,
2:46:53so where and tweed would their underwear
2:46:54be?
2:47:04Um
2:47:11>> in the um
2:47:13it's a laundry room area.
2:47:17>> Okay.
2:47:18>> Just between the house and the garage,
2:47:21right?
2:47:29So, where in that laundry area would
2:47:30they be kept?
2:47:32>> There's a cupboard uh up top.
2:47:35They're in a duffel bag.
2:47:38>> What's the duffel bag look like?
2:47:39>> It's a green army duffel bag.
2:47:43>> Are they all in the same duffel bag? Is
2:47:46there anything else in that duffel bag?
2:47:50>> Just under.
2:47:52Okay.
2:47:55Um,
2:48:02when these when these pictures uh are
2:48:06looked at, uh, you talked about being in
2:48:08Marie Fron's underwear on the first
2:48:10night you went in. Did you take
2:48:12photographs of that?
2:48:13>> Yep.
2:48:14>> What about anybody else's underwear?
2:48:17>> Yep.
2:48:18>> Photos.
2:48:20>> Of you in their underwear? Mhm. And
2:48:22where were those photos taken?
2:48:29Um,
2:48:33well, sometimes in
2:48:42in Maddie Fos's case in her house.
2:48:47The others in my house
2:48:50>> in tweet.
2:48:51>> Mhm. [clears throat]
2:48:53>> So, is this a matter you would take the
2:48:55underwear, go back and and then at some
2:48:57point put the underwear on and take
2:48:59pictures?
2:49:01What about Jessica's underwear?
2:49:07>> Uh, she's
2:49:09only her, right?
2:49:13>> So, you don't have pictures of you and
2:49:14her?
2:49:14>> No. Okay.
2:49:16All right. Um,
2:49:22okay.
2:49:25Well, I guess uh I just have a a couple
2:49:28of questions for you. I mean, I'm sure
2:49:30there's going to be more questions, but
2:49:31I guess what's on my mind right now,
2:49:33Russ, is um what made you decide to to
2:49:36tell me this tonight?
2:49:46mostly um to make my wife's life easier.
2:49:52>> Okay.
2:49:55>> Is what you've told me tonight the
2:49:56truth?
2:49:58>> Yeah.
2:49:59>> Okay.
2:50:06>> How do you feel about what you've done?
2:50:08Like what uh
2:50:24disappointed.
2:50:29>> Let me ask you this. if um
2:50:33if this didn't come to the point it's at
2:50:35right now,
2:50:36if whatever reason you didn't end up on
2:50:38our on our radar, so to speak, uh do you
2:50:41think it would have happened again?
2:50:51I was hoping not, but I can't answer the
2:50:54question.
2:50:56>> Okay.
2:50:58Um,
2:51:00not too much here, Russ. Just a few
2:51:02details that I wanted to cover off
2:51:06and specifically deal with Marie France.
2:51:09Um,
2:51:11in the basement of her house, uh,
2:51:14there's a hole in the uh, drywall.
2:51:18Do you recall how that happened?
2:51:21>> Whereabouts?
2:51:22>> Uh, I don't know specifically, but it's
2:51:25downstairs.
2:51:26I don't remember that.
2:51:28>> Okay.
2:51:29>> Do you remember doing anything with her
2:51:31in the basement? Uh where you may have
2:51:33used some clothing or something to uh to
2:51:36secure her?
2:51:38>> Yeah, I tied her up against one of the
2:51:40uh poles in the basement initially.
2:51:46I went outside and put the screen back
2:51:48on and secured the window.
2:51:52>> Okay. While she was tied to the pole.
2:51:54>> Yep. And what was your thinking behind
2:51:56doing that at that point?
2:51:59>> Just to cover up how I'd come in.
2:52:03>> Okay.
2:52:05>> Um, now by the time she's tied to that
2:52:06pole, is that in the very initial few
2:52:09minutes kind of thing of the
2:52:09confrontation or
2:52:11>> that was shortly after I subdued her and
2:52:14tied her, I guess.
2:52:15>> Okay. Does she have the duct tape on her
2:52:17mouth yet?
2:52:23I think probably
2:52:25>> okay
2:52:25>> the pictures will show it.
2:52:28>> All right. Now, in the upstairs bathroom
2:52:30by her bedroom, there's uh looks like
2:52:34something's occurred in there. Do you
2:52:36remember that? [snorts]
2:52:37>> Yep.
2:52:38>> What happened there?
2:52:39>> She had passed out on the bed and I had
2:52:42gone to look out the front window, see
2:52:44if anybody was coming.
2:52:47and uh
2:52:49she got up and closed the bedroom door
2:52:52and raced into the bathroom trying to uh
2:52:55get somebody's attention,
2:52:58>> but her mouth was taped and her hands
2:53:00were tied.
2:53:01>> Okay.
2:53:03>> What did you do as a result of that?
2:53:05>> Well, I just got in and
2:53:09subdued her again and got got her back
2:53:11into the bedroom.
2:53:13Didn't do anything. just regain control
2:53:16over it. [snorts]
2:53:18>> Okay. If I remember correctly, there's a
2:53:20bit there's a bit of blood in there. Do
2:53:21you know where that blood would have how
2:53:22that that would have occurred?
2:53:24>> All the blood was from
2:53:26the initial hits as I was trying to
2:53:29subdue her.
2:53:30>> Okay.
2:53:30>> Her skin breaking with the uh
2:53:33blows to her head. Okay.
2:53:35>> Do you recall blood being in the
2:53:37bathroom?
2:53:38>> No, actually I didn't have a light on
2:53:39there, but
2:53:41it doesn't surprise me.
2:53:42>> Okay.
2:53:44Um, there's a pair of underwear and some
2:53:47socks on the floor of that bathroom that
2:53:50belong to her. Do you remember how they
2:53:52got there? Do you remember seeing them?
2:53:54>> See that?
2:53:55>> Okay. What do you recall doing to her
2:53:58breasts? It's pretty clear that there
2:54:00was some something happened to her
2:54:02breasts. Do you remember what that might
2:54:05have been?
2:54:06>> No. I I certainly touched her breasts. I
2:54:09didn't do anything to hurt them.
2:54:12>> I remember that. No.
2:54:13>> Okay.
2:54:15>> All right. Um,
2:54:18well, Russ,
2:54:19>> now when I suffocated her, she was on
2:54:21her
2:54:24her her front, so may have been
2:54:27something there, but
2:54:29>> what do you mean?
2:54:31>> Well, she was lying on the floor in the
2:54:33bedroom as I suffocated her and
2:54:35obviously struggled. May have been in
2:54:37there that something happened, but I
2:54:38didn't do anything specifically to her
2:54:40breasts. Okay. So, when you suffocator,
2:54:44that's when you had the duct tape over
2:54:45her mouth and nose and that's on the
2:54:46floor.
2:54:47>> Yeah.
2:54:48>> And um then what happens after that?
2:54:53>> Well, she died and I um
2:54:57and took the duct tape off her head and
2:55:00put her on the bed and covered her up
2:55:02with the duvet.
2:55:06>> Okay. And what was your thinking behind
2:55:07doing that?
2:55:20Um,
2:55:21as you might expect here, Russ, uh,
2:55:24certainly, uh, even now, one of the
2:55:26Ottawa investigators mentioned to me
2:55:28that, um, there's a number of incidents
2:55:30that, uh, that have gone unsolved over
2:55:33the years.
2:55:35[cough]
2:55:36>> Can I, uh, I was gonna get into that.
2:55:38Can I go to the washroom quickly?
2:55:40>> Yeah, I can get somebody to take you to
2:55:41the washroom. Okay.
2:55:42>> The confession is complete. Russell
2:55:45Williams has told Detective Smith where
2:55:46Jessica Lloyd's body is. He has walked
2:55:49through the assaults of the two women in
2:55:50Tweed. He has described the murder of
2:55:53Marie France Ko in her basement in
2:55:55Brighton. He has told Smith where the
2:55:57rope is, where the flashlight is, where
2:55:58the memory cards are, where the
2:56:00underwear collection is stored. He has
2:56:02done all of this calmly, accurately, and
2:56:04in the same measured register he used to
2:56:06discuss tire brands and meeting
2:56:08schedules. And then Smith asks him,
2:56:10"What made you decide to tell me this
2:56:12tonight?" And William says, "Mostly to
2:56:15make my wife's life easier. Let's talk
2:56:17about everything that sentence reveals.
2:56:19And let's talk about what the totality
2:56:21of this case teaches us about
2:56:22psychology, about power, and about the
2:56:25specific catastrophe of a double life
2:56:27that finally in one afternoon in
2:56:29February 2010 ran out of road. When
2:56:31Smith asks what made Williams decide to
2:56:33tell the truth, the answer is immediate
2:56:35and apparently sincere, mostly to make
2:56:38my wife's life easier. Not, "I couldn't
2:56:40live with what I'd done." Not, "Those
2:56:43families deserve to know." Not, "I was
2:56:45wrong and I'm sorry, my wife's life."
2:56:48This response has been analyzed
2:56:50extensively in forensic psychology
2:56:52literature because it is so revealing.
2:56:54Williams does not express remorse for
2:56:56his victims in this moment. He does not
2:56:58acknowledge the moral weight of what he
2:57:00has done. He locates the primary
2:57:02motivation for his confession and
2:57:04concern for one person. The person who
2:57:06occupies the legitimate compartment of
2:57:08his psychological life. The victims Ko
2:57:11Lloyd the tweed women exist in the other
2:57:13compartment. The one that is apparently
2:57:15sealed off from the same emotional
2:57:17access that his wife can reach. This is
2:57:19not calculation. This is not deflection.
2:57:22This is, I believe, an accurate account
2:57:24of his actual psychological state. He
2:57:27was motivated to confess by concern for
2:57:29his wife. And the fact that the
2:57:31suffering of the women he assaulted and
2:57:33murdered does not appear with equivalent
2:57:34weight in that motivation tells us
2:57:36something definitive about the structure
2:57:38of Russell Williams inner world. What is
2:57:40Russell Williams clinically speaking? He
2:57:42does not meet the criteria for
2:57:44psychopathy in the pure hair PCLR sense.
2:57:47Psychopaths are characterized by glib
2:57:49charm, pathological lying, parasitic
2:57:51lifestyle, and a consistent inability to
2:57:54maintain genuine relationships. Williams
2:57:56maintained a genuine marriage. He had
2:57:58real professional relationships. His
2:58:01career success was not parasitic. He
2:58:03earned it through genuine competence. He
2:58:05does not meet the criteria for a
2:58:07disorganized or impulsriven sexual
2:58:09sadist. His crimes were organized,
2:58:12planned, and carefully concealed. There
2:58:14is no evidence of escalating
2:58:15disorganization or loss of control. What
2:58:18the available evidence suggests most
2:58:20strongly is a combination of specific
2:58:22paraphilia likely with vyuristic and
2:58:24fetishistic components combined with
2:58:27extreme compartmentalization as a coping
2:58:29mechanism and a profound failure of what
2:58:31psychologists call moral inclusion, the
2:58:33extension of moral concern to others as
2:58:35full human beings. The women he
2:58:37victimized were never fully human to him
2:58:39in the relevant sense. They were objects
2:58:42in his operational environment. This is
2:58:44not psychopathy. It is something more
2:58:46specific and perhaps more difficult to
2:58:48treat. A failure of the imagination of
2:58:50other people's interiority. Russell
2:58:53Williams committed 82 break-ins before
2:58:55his first sexual assault. 82. That is
2:58:58not an accident. That is a decade long
2:59:00escalation curve that in retrospect had
2:59:03a completely predictable trajectory.
2:59:05This matters enormously for prevention
2:59:07because the evidence of his earlier
2:59:09crimes was not invisible. Women in the
2:59:12Tweed area had reported break-ins.
2:59:14underwear had been stolen. The pattern
2:59:16existed. It was documented. It simply
2:59:19was not connected. In part because no
2:59:21one was looking for a decorated military
2:59:23colonel, and in part because break-ins
2:59:25to steal women's underwear are
2:59:26frequently not taken as seriously as
2:59:28they should be. Forensic psychologists
2:59:30have been arguing for years that
2:59:32fetishistic break-ins and underwear
2:59:33theft should be treated as early warning
2:59:35signals of potential escalation. The
2:59:38Russell Williams case is the most
2:59:39prominent and devastating evidence in
2:59:41support of that argument. Two women are
2:59:43dead who might be alive if the
2:59:45escalation pathway had been identified
2:59:47and interrupted at any point in those 82
2:59:49prior offenses. Before we close, I want
2:59:52to return to Detective Sergeant Jim
2:59:53Smith because what he accomplished in 2
2:59:55hours and 39 minutes deserves to be
2:59:57fully understood. He walked into that
3:00:00room knowing he had physical evidence,
3:00:02tire tracks, bootprints, cell data,
3:00:04swipe card records that was strong but
3:00:06not yet complete. He did not have a
3:00:08body. He did not have a DNA match
3:00:10confirmed. He did not have a confession.
3:00:13He walked out with Jessica Lloyd's
3:00:14location, a full account of two murders
3:00:17and two sexual assaults, the location of
3:00:1982 counts worth of evidence, the
3:00:21location of video recordings of the
3:00:23assaults, and the location of the memory
3:00:25cards containing photographs of the
3:00:26victims. He did this without coercion,
3:00:29without threats, without a single raised
3:00:31voice. He used respect, patience,
3:00:34strategic evidence presentation, and a
3:00:36deep understanding of the specific
3:00:38psychological pressure point that would
3:00:40ultimately move Russell Williams toward
3:00:42disclosure. the wife. Smith identified
3:00:45probably within the first 30 minutes
3:00:47that William's primary emotional
3:00:49investment was in his wife's well-being.
3:00:51And he built the path to confession
3:00:53around that single psychological
3:00:54reality, not around guilt for the
3:00:56victims, not around fear of punishment,
3:00:59around the one human relationship that
3:01:01Williams had maintained that was
3:01:02genuinely meaningful to him. That is not
3:01:05just good police work, that is applied
3:01:07psychology at the highest level. Russell
3:01:09Williams received two concurrent life
3:01:11sentences with no possibility of parole
3:01:13for 25 years. He was stripped of his
3:01:16rank, his medals, his wings, and every
3:01:18honor the Canadian Armed Forces had ever
3:01:20given him. His uniform was destroyed.
3:01:23His military vehicle was crushed.
3:01:25Canada's Department of National Defense
3:01:27did everything in its power to erase the
3:01:29physical evidence of his service.
3:01:31Jessica Lloyd was 27 years old. She was
3:01:34found exactly where Williams said she
3:01:36would be, 40 ft from the road, wrapped
3:01:38in gray on the surface. Marie France Ko
3:01:41was 38. She was a corporal at CFB
3:01:44Trenton, which means she served under
3:01:46the command of the man who broke into
3:01:47her house and killed her. She called him
3:01:49sir. The two women in Tweed, Lorie
3:01:52Massacott and Jane Doe, survived their
3:01:54assaults. They have described the
3:01:56lasting psychological damage of what
3:01:58Williams did to them. and his wife Mary
3:02:00Elizabeth Haramman, who knew nothing,
3:02:02who had built a life alongside a man
3:02:04whose interior world was entirely hidden
3:02:06from her, has had to carry the specific
3:02:08devastation of that betrayal in ways
3:02:10that are almost impossible to
3:02:12articulate.

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