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The Identity Crisis Behind Gender Politics w/ Angela Franks — Transcript

by Andrew Klavan · 5,539 words · 846 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00Doing something like gender confirming
0:03surgery as they call it seems to provide
0:06an identity that in many ways is easy.
0:10It's
0:10>> [music]
0:10>> easier than saying I'm going to turn
0:13inward and look at myself and my
0:16selfishness and you know the things
0:19about me that aren't great and try to
0:22figure out who [music] I really am. And
0:23so I think we go to the body because it
0:25feels easy.
0:29>> [music]
0:36[music]
0:42>> Hey everyone, it's Andrew Klavan with
0:43this week's interview with Angela
0:45Franks. A few years ago I started
0:47talking about the fact that a a cadre of
0:51women were rising up or addressing
0:54feminist and other issues in a highly
0:57intelligent way. Most of them for some
0:59reason were Catholics but not all of
1:01them. They included Mary Harrington who
1:03will be a Catholic So I Catholic I'm not
1:05a Catholic but Catholics are always
1:06saying that people will be Catholic soon
1:08but Mary definitely will. Erica
1:10Bacchiocchi, Louise Perry but the one
1:12who really grabbed me was Angela Franks
1:15mostly because she writes so brilliantly
1:17about literature and because she's
1:19operating at
1:21just another level than most thinkers
1:23out there at all. She's an associate
1:25professor of theology at the Catholic
1:26University of America and what I want to
1:29talk to her about is her new book,
1:31award-winning book, Body and Identity a
1:34History of the Empty Self which I just
1:36finished last week.
1:38Obviously a topic that's much in the
1:40news. Angela is so nice to meet you.
1:42Thank you for coming on.
1:44Thanks for having me. What what award
1:46did you win? I didn't know you won an
1:47award. It's called the Expanded Reason
1:50Award and it's given by the Joseph
1:53Ratzinger Foundation and a university in
1:55Spain. So it's an international award.
1:57It was it was a real honor.
1:59>> Nice. Nice. Congratulations. Well,
2:01obviously you know we're we're coming
2:03off a week in which the Supreme Court
2:05heard these arguments about why whether
2:09or not women should be allowed in men
2:12who think they're women should be
2:13allowed in women's sports. And my
2:15reaction to this is is pretty
2:17definitive. I mean my reaction is why
2:19does it somebody write a a theoretical
2:22book
2:23you know and suddenly one of the central
2:26facts of human biology vanishes. Why is
2:29a theory able to replace reality so
2:32easily that these major legal minds who
2:34sit on the Supreme Court and Ketanji
2:36Brown Jackson can suddenly are suddenly
2:39calling people by the wrong pronouns and
2:40thinking that this has some virtue to
2:42it. You tell the history of this idea
2:45and I'm wondering if you can explain to
2:47people who are just you know regular
2:49people going about their lives how women
2:52especially vanished as a as a category
2:56due to theory. How does that come about?
2:58Yeah, I argue that we think often that
3:01we have a body problem. You know
3:03transgenderism is presented as a body
3:05problem. You know somebody says I I'm in
3:08the wrong body and my problem is that my
3:11body is not sexed the way it should be.
3:14But my argument is that a lot of these
3:17body problems are actually identity
3:19problems. People don't know who they are
3:23and they're desperate to figure this out
3:27and the body is the thing that's most
3:31accessible. It's the most at hand for us
3:34to tinker with and it also feels even
3:36though I think this is false, the body
3:38feels like it's kind of at a distance
3:40from me. You know there's me and then
3:41there's my body. That's how a lot of
3:42people think about it. And so it feels
3:45like when you're messing around with
3:46your body that that's somehow
3:49not that's somehow easier to do. It's
3:51somehow kind of detachable from me. And
3:54so the body has kind of taken the brunt
3:57of our identity problems and you're
3:59right that this especially impacts women
4:01in part I think because
4:04women are more
4:07it's harder to detach women from their
4:09bodies just because of how we're built
4:11like how our cycles go and everything.
4:13But also we're just more vulnerable
4:14physically and so it's easier to
4:19trespass in on a on a female space than
4:22it would be to try to do it the other
4:23way around if it were unwelcome. So I
4:25think for a lot of different reasons
4:27we're seeing this come to these things
4:29come together the way they are. I I
4:31can't help feeling that the the
4:33existence of women
4:36has troubled people at least since the
4:4018th century. I mean I I wrote a book
4:42about the romantic poets and talked
4:43about
4:44not a poet but Mary Shelley's
4:46Frankenstein in which people say that
4:49Frankenstein is trying to replace God
4:51the Dr. Frankenstein is trying to
4:52replace God. But one of the things he's
4:54also doing is what God did was he's
4:56creating a person without a mother. And
4:58I think that that's a big theme and I
5:00thought Mary Shelley was thinking about
5:02that at the time.
5:04What is it about women
5:06in the movie Barbie recently they had a
5:08line men hate women and women hate women
5:10which I I've never found to be
5:12>> [laughter]
5:12>> the case. So what is it about women that
5:15where you can say a line like that and
5:17it resonates with people?
5:20So this is I don't cover that that much
5:22in this book but I actually have done a
5:23lot of work on Margaret Sanger who was
5:26one of the she was the founder of
5:28Planned Parenthood and she was probably
5:29the most influential promoter of birth
5:32control.
5:33And she really
5:36proposed that women are
5:40oppressed by their biology and I think
5:43that
5:45women often feel oppressed by their
5:47biology and men often feel as though
5:52women's reproductive powers are
5:54uncontrollable and therefore scary and
5:57dangerous. And so I think both on the
5:59side of women and on the side of men we
6:01see people trying to control something
6:04that is fundamentally not controllable,
6:06right? You can ask any person who
6:09desperately wants to have a baby and
6:11you know like you you recognize really
6:13quickly the extent of your own ability
6:15to control your biology on the score.
6:18And so I think that women appear more
6:22uncontrollable precisely because of what
6:24their bodies can do and that makes us
6:26pretty nervous in a technological age
6:29where supposedly we have control over
6:32matter completely and women's bodies
6:36show us that that's actually a lie that
6:37we really don't have control. In in the
6:40in your book The Body and Identity
6:42you're giving a philosophical history.
6:45Is is there a moment you were saying
6:46that we think this is a body problem but
6:48it's really an identity problem.
6:50Is there a moment where you feel this
6:52identity problem becomes a problem or
6:54was it always a problem?
6:56So part of my proposal in the book is
6:59that our history of identity problems is
7:01longer than we think it is. It's easy to
7:04say well we've had identity problems
7:06since the sexual revolution and I think
7:08that's true. But I don't think you got
7:11to the real source of our identity
7:13problems without looking at this longer
7:14history. So one of the things I point
7:16out is that one of the major disruptors
7:20of identity was actually Christianity.
7:23In the the ancient world you know you
7:26didn't people didn't people ask the
7:28question who am I but they answered that
7:31question pretty easily. You could say
7:34you know the cosmos is you know we have
7:36the gods in the cosmos and I fit here in
7:39my city in my class in my trade or you
7:43know it just it was easy to look around
7:45and find external
7:47social categories to answer the question
7:50who am I. And Christianity says those
7:53are important and they're good but
7:55they're not the ultimate thing that
7:57gives you your identity because God can
8:00call you out of your social class. So in
8:03the Catholic tradition we have the case
8:04of Thomas Aquinas who was an aristocrat
8:07and he was supposed to go to a
8:09Benedictine monastery which is where
8:11rich people went and you know be the
8:13abbot and he said no and his family
8:16locked him in the attic for months until
8:19he said yes or until they said yes until
8:21they changed their minds. So
8:23but you know we also have the case of
8:24St. Paul who
8:26is has one trajectory based on his class
8:31his people his ideas and gets thrown off
8:35of that trajectory. So Christianity
8:37creates a condition in which we have to
8:40ask about vocation. Like who does God
8:42want me to be? And it's a harder
8:44question to answer.
8:46And as the centuries go on the
8:50the things that surrounded the solid
8:53categories that surrounded people's
8:55identity like their family and like
8:58their class and all of these things. In
8:59part because of Christianity those
9:02become more and more liquefied. They
9:04become less important for giving you an
9:07identity. But simultaneously with
9:10modernity you get secularism which says
9:13actually identity is not about God's
9:15vocation. And so I think if I had to
9:17pick a one point it would be when
9:20secularism really takes over how people
9:23in the West understand themselves
9:25because it keeps this fluid identity
9:30situation that Christianity creates and
9:32removes Christianity's identity answer.
9:35And so now [clears throat] you really do
9:37have a crisis. Ah, that's that's
9:39fascinating. So the the Christianity
9:42unmoors you from the identity that's
9:44based in worldly cares. What what is
9:47exactly does it replace it with? It
9:49replaces it with What what what exactly
9:52would a Christian say about his
9:53identity?
9:54Yeah, and I do I talk less about this in
9:56the book but I there will be hopefully a
9:58future book that I'll talk about it
9:59more.
10:01Christianity replaces it with God's call
10:04to the individual, which is not going to
10:06be just a call out of society. Even you
10:10know, even somebody goes off to be a
10:11hermit is still connected to the church
10:13and to praying for the world and all of
10:15that, but it is a call that's tailored
10:18to the individual in a way that is just
10:21not what you see in the ancient world.
10:24Where the individual's sense of what God
10:29or the gods want him to do is just not a
10:32component of identity formation the way
10:35that Christianity demands.
10:38So all right. So now you So now you've
10:40unmoored your identity from social you
10:43know, facts.
10:46How How did we get to this point where
10:50well, people are
10:51mutilating children to to change their
10:54sex? I mean I can hardly say that and
10:56actually believe it's happening, but it
10:59actually is not only happening, but you
11:01know, at some point the most powerful
11:02person in the country was inciting it.
11:05How do we get from All right. Now I'm
11:07unmoored. I've lost the idea that God is
11:10calling me to be somebody.
11:12So I've got to find my identity. How did
11:15we get then to this next stage?
11:18It takes quite a few centuries in part
11:20because
11:22within Christianity up through
11:25modernity, you still had those solid
11:27structures that were concretely
11:29providing a lot of people's identity
11:31content. You know, people still were you
11:34know, in the Middle Ages, you still
11:35don't have a lot of identity crises and
11:37most people Thomas Aquinas is a bit of
11:40an exception. Most people are staying
11:42pretty close to their social class and
11:45family and everything in order to
11:47understand who they are.
11:49But when the divine content the
11:52Christian content is removed and when we
11:56get told in modernity that
11:59freedom is the primary good and these
12:02things that constrain our freedom like
12:05class or like family or like our human
12:09nature, right? We get the modernity
12:12argues that if you think you have a
12:14human nature that makes you what you
12:16are, that means you're not really free,
12:18right? And so human nature is one of the
12:20things that modern philosophers reject
12:23in the name of freedom.
12:24And so now it's people are really lost.
12:28And this it takes several centuries for
12:32the the social structures to
12:34disintegrate enough that people feel
12:37lost. And I think by the 20th century
12:39pretty definitively have that. And now
12:44people are trying to solve their
12:46identity crises primarily by messing
12:49with their bodies. And so doing
12:51something like
12:54like a transgender
12:56you know, sex change or gender
13:00confirming surgery as they call it.
13:02Doing that seems to provide an identity
13:05that in many ways is easy. Like it's not
13:09easy because taking the hormones are
13:13really hard on you and the surgeries
13:15don't you know, like what people are
13:16left with after the surgeries it's a
13:18mess and like So it's not hard, but in a
13:21sense I'm sorry, it's not easy, but in a
13:24sense it's easier than saying I'm going
13:27to turn inward
13:29>> [laughter]
13:29>> and look at myself and my selfishness
13:33and you know, the things about me that
13:35aren't great and try to figure out who I
13:38really am. And so I think we we go to
13:40the body because it feels easy.
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15:18>> [singing]
15:23[music]
15:23>> I know that the the body and identity
15:25book
15:26only covers certain things. And as you
15:28say, you say in the book that you're
15:29going to cover other things later. But I
15:31think for the purposes of this
15:33conversation, I think we have to move
15:34into some of those things. I read an
15:36article
15:38by you that I I just loved. It was
15:40called What is a Woman? I think which
15:42are are are my colleague Matt Walsh also
15:45likes to say. Is
15:48there something that that you would say
15:51to someone who came to you personally
15:53and said I'm thinking of having this
15:55operation because I'm not a woman? I
15:57mean, what how would you respond to
15:59that? Yeah, there's a
16:01um
16:02There's one former somebody who
16:04detransitioned who asks people in that
16:07situation
16:09When did you start feeling like your
16:13body was foreign to you?
16:16And so you know, asking people to look
16:19at their own the history the really the
16:21psychological and spiritual history of
16:23their relationship with their bodies.
16:26And when did that relationship
16:29disintegrate? And why? Like what was the
16:31context of that?
16:33So to try to understand one's self
16:35better and why a person might have these
16:39instincts on the one hand. On the other
16:42hand, I think this is advice that's
16:46often given to parents of children who
16:49are
16:50who are playing around with these kinds
16:52of identities and I think it's
16:53absolutely stellar advice.
16:55What is the good thing in that person
16:59that you can see and affirm to help that
17:02person form an identity out of who they
17:06really are instead of grasping at straws
17:09and looking at surgeries and all of
17:11these other things that are really
17:12external.
17:14Like turning inward and saying, okay,
17:16but what What is What am I really
17:19ordered towards? Like And so you know,
17:21this can look like very concretely for a
17:23parent is just like compliment the heck
17:26out of your kid. You know, like they
17:28they take the dishes and be like, Wow,
17:30you're really helpful. And you know,
17:32maybe at some point they'll be like, You
17:35know, Who am I? I'm helpful. I'm a good
17:39son. I'm you know, a loyal friend,
17:43right? Like those are the real things
17:44that you actually construct your
17:46identity from and I think that's
17:48That's what people need to access. They
17:50need to realize that they do have an
17:52identity that
17:54is not dependent on hormones and
17:56surgeons and all of that. You know, one
17:59of the things that I think is is
18:00difficult for people is that you know,
18:02the the gender distinctions of sex
18:05distinctions
18:06are when we talk about men and women,
18:08we're always talking generally. We're
18:09not you know,
18:10we all have traits that that cross over
18:12lines and things like this. I mean,
18:14nobody is one thing or the other. You If
18:16if you were 100% male, you'd be a
18:18psychopath. And if you were
18:20>> [laughter]
18:21>> female, you'd be another kind of
18:23psychopath. A different psychopath.
18:25And and and you mentioned
18:27in one of the things I was reading by
18:29you that you're a football fan, which if
18:31it were possible for you to rise in my
18:33estimation, that would have done it.
18:35>> [laughter]
18:36>> And and so you know, we all have these
18:38these crossover traits and everything.
18:41But is there something you know, when I
18:43watched Matt Walsh's film What is a
18:44Woman?
18:45I was sitting there going, you know,
18:46it's actually not an easy question
18:49because when you ask the question like
18:51that and people start saying, Well, the
18:53x y and
18:54of it all and and this and that and this
18:56body part and all that. But that's not
18:58really what we mean, is it? I mean, I
18:59know somebody When somebody walks in and
19:01I say, Wow, she's womanly,
19:03which is a great compliment and
19:05something that commands a room. I've
19:07seen again and again, you know,
19:10we mean something by that. What exactly
19:12do we mean?
19:13Yeah. So this is in many ways the
19:16distinction between sex and gender,
19:18which a lot of people don't like the
19:20language of gender because it's gotten
19:22hijacked. And if you don't like the
19:23word, that's fine, but I think the
19:25distinction itself is really helpful.
19:28Um
19:29In other words, there is one way to
19:34fundamentally be a woman, but there are
19:37many ways to be a woman or to be
19:40womanly, right? In other words, there's
19:42only one way in which one really can be
19:45a woman. And that means the capacity
19:48to reproduce in a a way. There are two
19:52ways that the human race reproduces
19:55itself and they need to come together.
19:57They're different ways. We need to have
19:59the male way of reproducing outside of
20:02yourself with small gametes and the
20:04female way of reproducing inside of
20:06yourself with large gametes and that is
20:09the whole basis for why we talk about
20:13the difference between male and female
20:14at all. That's the original insight that
20:18people had when they're like, oh,
20:19there's a class of people that we call
20:21male and a class we call female and it's
20:23based on how they reproduce.
20:25So for a lot of people this sounds
20:27really crass. It sounds like
20:30kind of unimportant and material and you
20:32know, we don't like to connect sex and
20:34reproduction at all anyway. That's been
20:36part of you know, that was the whole
20:38point of the sexual revolution was to
20:40try to divorce those two. Um, but if you
20:43don't get that there's this bodily basis
20:46for being either male or female, then
20:49all of these other secondary kinds of
20:52traits become much more important than
20:53they should be and so this is where you
20:55have teachers who, you know, see the
20:58kindergartner boy playing with playing
21:00with dolls and say, oh well, he must be
21:01a girl because they fastened on some
21:06kind of downstream characteristic
21:09as being the thing when in fact it's a
21:13thing and it's a thing that maybe even a
21:16majority of females do but not all
21:19females. The The only thing that
21:21classifies all females is that they have
21:24the kind of body that's ordered to this
21:26way of reproducing and the same for
21:29males.
21:30That's only the beginning of the
21:31conversation because then like it's
21:33really interesting to talk about those
21:35other characteristics and there's a lot
21:37to say there but you have to talk about
21:38them on the basis of this shared
21:41understanding of what fundamentally
21:44maleness and femaleness is. You know,
21:47you you mentioned this thing about a
21:48doll you know, this secondary
21:50characteristic of girls play with dolls
21:52because they are essentially practicing
21:54for something that they somehow know
21:56that they are capable of doing.
21:59The entire when I was watching some of
22:01the Supreme Court argument, the entire
22:03thing seems to me backwards like that
22:05and and and I I'm baffled by why it has
22:08convinced so many people, why it's
22:10become this feverish. I mean, I guess
22:12that's kind of what I'm trying to find
22:14out is why it's become
22:16a sort of fact of mental life. Um, we
22:20start out by saying, well, women are
22:21kind of like this men are kind of like
22:23this meaning meaning not like every
22:25woman is like this or every man is like
22:26this but these are traits that we see a
22:28lot and so we call them feminine traits.
22:30And then somebody says, well, this guy
22:31has a feminine trait so he must be a
22:33girl. That just seems to me incredibly
22:35backwards, an incredibly backward way of
22:37thinking.
22:38And yet the some of the philosophers
22:41that you talk about in in body and
22:42identity or philosophers I've read and
22:44admired and who are actually quite
22:47insightful and then there's Michel
22:49Foucault who I think was maybe the
22:50devil.
22:52>> [laughter]
22:53>> But still, you know, they were they were
22:54trying to think their way out of
22:56something. How do we get to a point?
22:59Well, I mean,
23:01I guess what I'm almost trying to ask
23:02you is what is it in the human mind that
23:04allows theories to obliterate what we
23:07all know to be true?
23:08Yeah, theories generally answer theories
23:12that get popular generally answer
23:15widespread questions. Now, they might
23:17answer them badly but they've latched on
23:21to a widespread confusion or
23:25misunderstanding or existential crisis
23:28that the theorist is providing a certain
23:31answer to. Um, and so I think that
23:36um, the identity problem is the
23:38widespread crisis and problem that's
23:40been building for centuries and in the
23:4420th century
23:46um, especially with the sexual
23:48revolution as Carl Truman points out,
23:51sex becomes not so much what somebody
23:54does but who one is. So how I am
23:58sexually attracted, you know, the
24:00classes of people to whom I'm sexually
24:03attracted, the way that I want to have
24:04sex, like all of this becomes
24:08um, not just a matter of behavior but a
24:10matter of identity. So and that just
24:13becomes in many ways the socially
24:14acceptable way of crafting an identity
24:18and I think that's why you know, teens
24:21are naturally adolescents naturally are
24:23going through an identity crisis where
24:26they're trying to separate out from
24:28their parents and form their own sense
24:30of self.
24:31And it's hard in the best of
24:33circumstances but when they have so
24:35little identity content, it's really
24:37hard and so these identities on the
24:41rainbow for example, like trans or
24:44others, they're they're like pre-made
24:46suits from the rack. It's like, I'll
24:48just pick this one and see if it fits me
24:50and I don't have to sew one myself,
24:52thank heavens and oh, actually this suit
24:56is really popular right now and people
24:58who put it on get praised by their
25:00teachers and everything. And so it ends
25:03up
25:04it creates a situation in which identity
25:06politics is almost inevitable because we
25:09want easy quick ways to answer the
25:11identity question. So that that makes a
25:14lot of sense because you look at people
25:16like Judith Butler
25:20Uh, and they almost seem like malevolent
25:22but really they are speaking into
25:24something a problem. They may be
25:26malevolent in fact but they are speaking
25:28into a problem that's already there. So
25:30so now I have to ask you because I'm
25:31coming to the end. I have to ask you're
25:33teacher at the Catholic University.
25:35You've winning prizes named after
25:37Ratzinger. I I I assume that you are a a
25:40believing in fact and practicing
25:42Catholic.
25:44What is it
25:45we need what is it we need to find? I
25:47mean, I think that
25:49I really would like to hear this in
25:51spiritual terms because I think that to
25:54put it in philosophical or physical
25:55terms is is not going to serve the
25:57purpose.
25:59What is it exactly
26:01a young person thinking who am I? What
26:04should they be thinking about?
26:06Yeah, I agree exactly that it has to be
26:08fundamentally a spiritual answer. I
26:10mean, you have to know what it means to
26:11be a human being in order to understand
26:13who you are. That's a more philosophical
26:16truth but in order to understand really
26:19who am I as opposed as opposed to who
26:21are you or who is anybody else,
26:24um, you have to be it's really the
26:26question you're asking is who does God
26:28want me to be? And so to use more
26:31Catholic language, that means who's the
26:33saint that God wants me to be? What's my
26:36version of holiness? What's my version
26:39of being a fulfilled
26:42and radiant creature of God that God has
26:47intended from all eternity just for me,
26:52you know, all of these billions of
26:53people and yet every single one of us
26:56God in his providence
26:58there's a particular saint that he wants
27:00us to be and that he's planned out and
27:02so our path is really to try to line up
27:06as much as possible, line up the
27:07concrete um, realities of my life, line
27:11up my personality and hopefully virtues
27:14and everything in line with that picture
27:17that he has. And so we have to figure it
27:19out like who what is it? And so that
27:22requires some silence and it requires
27:24prayer and it requires talking to people
27:26who know us well,
27:28um, and all of those things. It's all
27:30it's a long-term answer. It's not a
27:32quick and easy answer but it's the only
27:34one that's really fulfilling. So
27:37I I agree with every word you just said
27:39and I would like to know if you feel
27:42because I sometimes feel that that the
27:44church and by the church I mean all the
27:46churches,
27:48you know, the church in the biggest
27:49possible sense.
27:50Sometimes get in the way of that
27:52operation. They seem to have a kind of
27:54like the
27:55you know,
27:56I don't want to single out like the
27:57Catholic catechism but any any kind of
27:59catechism has
28:01a sort of
28:02one size fits all feeling to me and when
28:05people are,
28:07you know, Scott Adams just died and
28:09said, you know, I don't believe but I'm
28:11going to accept Jesus Christ cuz that
28:13basically took Pascal's wager. He said,
28:15you know, I I I think it's a better deal
28:17and if and if I wake up and I'm in
28:19heaven, then I'll believe so that'll be
28:20fine. And people were screaming and
28:22yelling at him and I thought, you know
28:22what? Go home, pal. You know, anything
28:25any road that gets you home is is good
28:27for me. Is is there a way that the
28:29church stands in the way because I've
28:31talked to a lot of people who don't
28:32believe and have had conversations where
28:34I'll say,
28:36why don't you believe in God? And
28:37they'll say, well, I can't accept the
28:38Trinity or the Virgin Birth. And I'll
28:40think,
28:40why don't you start somewhere else, you
28:42know, why don't you start with the
28:43bigger question? Is there a way to
28:46briefly that the the churches get in the
28:48way?
28:50I think that definitely we can imply to
28:55people that they have to go from zero to
28:5950 immediately.
29:02Um, and I think that that can be part of
29:05the messaging of
29:07of churches
29:09and I think it certainly
29:11comes up in, you know, like apologetics
29:15efforts by Christians for example can
29:18imply that well, unless you believe
29:20exactly everything that I do which can
29:22get very nitpicky very quickly that
29:25like, you know, don't even try. It's
29:27like, you know,
29:29all of these traits or none at all. I
29:31don't actually think when you look at
29:34the, you know, what I'm familiar with
29:36which is more the the classical doctrine
29:39of something like Catholicism or the
29:41older Protestant churches,
29:44I don't feel like
29:46um, there's this one-size-fits-all path
29:50for holiness. I mean, you know, you
29:52could have a long conversation about
29:53that, but um, like in in the Catholic
29:55Church, for example, there's many
29:56different states of life, and it's not
29:59presumed that a person belongs to any
30:01one of them. That's a God's action, not
30:04my own choice. Um,
30:06so I but yeah, like abso- I think your
30:09point that people um,
30:12are at different places, and like I I
30:16personally consider my job to be helping
30:19people move a little bit further along
30:22from where they already were. And if God
30:24wants to use me more than that, that's
30:26wonderful, but um, like that's it seems
30:29to me is a service. If I've helped
30:31people move a little bit closer to what
30:34the truth is, and God willing, they'll
30:37they'll go all the way, but um,
30:39we have to be patient with each other,
30:41and we have to be patient with God
30:43because he's really in a lot of ways
30:45the, you know, he's the giver of grace,
30:48and we have to trust that his providence
30:51has a plan for all of these people who
30:53don't seem to be following our plans,
30:55but I do believe God has a plan for
30:57them. Yeah. Yeah, and I that is I I do
30:59find a great lack of
31:02of trust in God and even in believers.
31:05Uh, they they feel that they have to
31:06carry
31:07carry the weight. It's like
31:09I when I was learning to fly a plane, my
31:11instructor used to say, "Stop flying the
31:13plane. The plane will fly, you know."
31:14And I think that that's a lot of people
31:15have that problem. Angela Franks is an
31:18associate professor of theology at the
31:19Catholic University of America,
31:21beautiful university. Her latest
31:22award-winning book is Body and Identity,
31:25a History of the Empty Self. Angela, it
31:26is so nice to meet you. I hope we get a
31:28chance to do this again, uh, especially
31:30when you have more stuff coming out. I
31:32always look for your name in First
31:34Things, and I always love reading what
31:36you write. It's really doing a fantastic
31:37job. It's nice to meet you.
31:40Thank you so much. Again, I think for
31:42for me, the leader of the pack of this
31:44new group of women intellectuals, as I
31:47say, many of them Catholic, who are
31:50coming back at at feminism not from an
31:52anti-feminist point of view, from but
31:54from a very human and spiritual point of
31:57view, and are writing beautiful stuff in
32:00in the magazine First Things and in
32:02books and and elsewhere. And really
32:04really worth looking for. It's a it's a
32:06phenomenon. It's it's this thing that's
32:07happening
32:09because I think women are the ones
32:10who've been damaged most by some of the
32:13modern thought, including feminism as
32:15it's practiced by the left. Uh, and of
32:18course, if you want just spiritual
32:20healing, you want to come to the Andrew
32:22Klavan Show on Friday. I will be there,
32:24and I hope you'll be there as well.
32:27>> [music]
32:35[music]

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