The Hunt for Shannon Matthews: ‘I Helped Put Karen Matthews Behind Bars’ | This Morning — Transcript

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1. 0:00Ahead of a new documentary, we're joined
2. 0:01by two people who were at the heart of
3. 0:03the case. Karen Matthews former friend,
4. 0:05Julie Bushby, who led the search for
5. 0:07Shannon, and Richard Edwards, one of the
6. 0:09first journalists on the scene. Morning
7. 0:11to both of you, and thank you so so much
8. 0:14for joining us today. I think it's one
9. 0:16of those thing, it's one of those cases,
10. 0:17isn't it, that we all remember. It was
11. 0:20>> everywhere. Um, it's all still etched in
12. 0:23our minds. And now there's a
13. 0:24documentary, two-part documentary that
14. 0:26you are both involved in.
15. 0:27>> We've watched it, haven't we, Andy? and
16. 0:29it kind of brought everything back and
17. 0:31you know it it's such
18. 0:34a shocking scenario to find yourself in
19. 0:38and Julie you were at the heart of it.
20. 0:40Can you take us back to that day when
21. 0:42the alarm was raised and what happened?
22. 0:45>> One neighbors were outside me house. So,
23. 0:47I were doing me ironing and uh I just
24. 0:49asked her what how come she was stood
25. 0:50there and she just said to me one of
26. 0:53Karen's kids have gone missing
27. 0:56>> and it just from that conversation it
28. 0:59went from there
29. 0:59>> and that must have I mean that is the
30. 1:02news that nobody ever wants to hear. Did
31. 1:06everybody just kind of go into kind of
32. 1:09fight mode for her?
33. 1:12Well, it's it's a small community is
34. 1:14more mo more side itself.
35. 1:16So I went down an open community house
36. 1:19and then people were turning up. What
37. 1:21can we do? What can we do? And first of
38. 1:23all we started off with searches
39. 1:25>> and then the police asked us to stop
40. 1:27searching
41. 1:28>> because we might be what might not be
42. 1:30evidence to us could be evidence for
43. 1:33them. So they asked us to stop the
44. 1:34searching. So we thought what else can
45. 1:36we do? And that's when the posters and
46. 1:37the t-shirts started and going up on all
47. 1:39the lamp posts. you really were integral
48. 1:42to leading those searches and getting
49. 1:44that real spirit from the community. Had
50. 1:46you always been a spirited community?
51. 1:48Did everybody know everybody and
52. 1:50everyone's kids would play together?
53. 1:52>> It was it's it was a close-knit
54. 1:54community. Um I mean everybody knew
55. 1:57everybody else. You might not go into
56. 1:59the house for a coffee, but everybody
57. 2:00acknowledged everybody else. You always
58. 2:02knew where if a child were out on the
59. 2:04street, you'd know where they were
60. 2:06living if you you know what I mean. It
61. 2:08was a very close community.
62. 2:09>> Yeah. and describe Karen to us cuz you
63. 2:12would have known her just as another
64. 2:14mom.
65. 2:14>> She was just another mom on the estate.
66. 2:16I mean, I didn't get to know Karen till
67. 2:17Shannon had gone missing. I knew of her,
68. 2:19>> right?
69. 2:19>> Um I did a course with her um previous
70. 2:23to that, but we never were mates,
71. 2:26>> right?
72. 2:26>> But I didn't get to know Karen until
73. 2:28Shannon had gone missing.
74. 2:29>> And and how how did you find her? what
75. 2:32what was she like in that you know again
76. 2:34it's kind of the news that no mom ever
77. 2:36or or dad parent carer ever wants to
78. 2:39hear about a child. Um how was she in
79. 2:42those initial days? Did you ever kind of
80. 2:45have any doubts as to what was going on?
81. 2:48>> We weren't looking for any doubts as to
82. 2:50what were going on. It were all about um
83. 2:52this child missing
84. 2:54>> um which is what the entire community
85. 2:56were concentrating on. I mean, obviously
86. 2:58there were ESA going around that she
87. 2:59were acting weird in this sort of way,
88. 3:01this sort of way. But it sort of like
89. 3:02went over our heads.
90. 3:03>> Yeah.
91. 3:04>> Because it was about looking
92. 3:06>> for the little girl, not looking at the
93. 3:09mother's reactions. End of day, you
94. 3:11don't know how you'd react if you were
95. 3:12in that position. Everybody's different.
96. 3:14>> Go into absolute.
97. 3:15>> Well, it's like a grieving process.
98. 3:17Nobody grieavves the same way. So, when
99. 3:19you've got some a child missing, you
100. 3:21don't know how you'd react. So, you
101. 3:22can't judge other people for how they
102. 3:23react.
103. 3:24>> Yeah. It was a 24-day search. Yeah.
104. 3:27>> Where I assume you gave everything and
105. 3:29everybody did. The community really got
106. 3:31together.
107. 3:32>> The moment you then heard that she was
108. 3:36alive, that must have been in some way
109. 3:39shocking.
110. 3:41>> Relief. I wouldn't say shocking. I'd
111. 3:43have said relief. I mean, I never
112. 3:45thought she were dead anyway. I mean,
113. 3:46Richard can vouch for that. I I never
114. 3:48thought she were dead because no matter
115. 3:52what what TV program you watch, whether
116. 3:54it's the news or a t a documentary or
117. 3:57anything, they always find something
118. 4:00>> belonging to that person before they
119. 4:02find the person. Yeah.
120. 4:03>> And as long as they want finding
121. 4:04anything
122. 4:05>> as far as I were concerned.
123. 4:07>> Yeah, I see. I mean, I see your logic
124. 4:09and your logic makes sense. But Richard,
125. 4:11>> thank you for coming as well. Of course,
126. 4:13you were a local newspaper journalist.
127. 4:16this must have been a huge story for you
128. 4:18and it's something that you stuck with
129. 4:19from that day one, didn't you?
130. 4:21>> And and still talking about it now all
131. 4:22these years later and and seeing the
132. 4:24runup to it there on those clips and the
133. 4:26bit of footage. Uh and Julie and I have
134. 4:28been speaking about this the last couple
135. 4:29of days as well, it still gets the
136. 4:32emotions going in some ways even more
137. 4:34than it did at the time because at the
138. 4:36time we were immersed in it, weren't we,
139. 4:38from both the different roles that we
140. 4:39were doing. Um, but as the time has
141. 4:41passed and I've had more time to think
142. 4:43about it, um, it just seems even more
143. 4:45unbelievable what actually happened.
144. 4:47This isn't going to happen. Oh, that's
145. 4:49just happened. That's not going to
146. 4:50happen. Wow, that's just happened as
147. 4:51well. And
148. 4:52>> you were so close to the story as well,
149. 4:54though, because there was so much press
150. 4:56and media coverage. Um but the family
151. 4:58really kind of welcomed you in being a
152. 5:01local journalist and and let you right
153. 5:03into the heart of
154. 5:04>> well and Julie was a big help with that
155. 5:05and that shows the power and the
156. 5:06importance of local news and local media
157. 5:08because I worked for the Oxy Post at the
158. 5:10time and a lot of people in Jews being
159. 5:12on the M side which was and is a very
160. 5:15very special place with very very
161. 5:17special people living there. um they
162. 5:19read the paper. So uh they understood
163. 5:23the value of working with the local
164. 5:24journalists to keep the uh the momentum
165. 5:27and the profile of the search high. And
166. 5:29Julie's absolutely right. All the way
167. 5:31through it, there remained this belief
168. 5:33that this little girl would be found
169. 5:35safe and she would be brought back. So
170. 5:38it didn't matter what anyone else
171. 5:39thought. That's what the people on the M
172. 5:41side were saying. That's the way we went
173. 5:43and we all bought into that. Uh and
174. 5:45there were stories in the paper nearly
175. 5:46every day. Um, and the the bit that
176. 5:49really um made me nearly tear up there
177. 5:51was watching the footage of the
178. 5:53community march, the march for Shannon,
179. 5:56everybody was out of Julie and it just
180. 5:58showed um the fact that people there to
181. 6:01get this little girl back. Um some of
182. 6:03them didn't even know her. That didn't
183. 6:05matter. She was one of theirs and they
184. 6:07wanted to get her back. Put lives on
185. 6:08hold in the Jews.
186. 6:09>> Yeah.
187. 6:09>> To make that happen. Everything else
188. 6:11came secondary to that. Everybody
189. 6:13chucked absolutely everything into it.
190. 6:16Totally. No one gave up hope. And then
191. 6:18she was found and that moment when she
192. 6:21was found in the party on the m. Wow.
193. 6:23Relief. It was a rel and a release,
194. 6:25wasn't it?
195. 6:25>> It was absolut I'll never forget that
196. 6:27day for as long as I live.
197. 6:29>> So, at any point did you ever think that
198. 6:33the mom was involved?
199. 6:34>> No. Well, not until right towards the
200. 6:36end, just before that she was she was
201. 6:38arrested. Yes, I saw her do some strange
202. 6:40things. Yes. Like Julie said, I heard a
203. 6:43behaving in some strange ways, but how
204. 6:46am I supposed to know how a parent, a
205. 6:48mother in particular, is supposed to
206. 6:50behave when they've got a child missing?
207. 6:52You can behave however you like. And um
208. 6:56because she gets the um the the free
209. 6:59pass, the benefit of the doubt, you
210. 7:01might be covering up the fact that
211. 7:02you're absolutely dying inside. So even
212. 7:05any bits of slightly strange behavior um
213. 7:08I just put to one side. I didn't forget
214. 7:10about it. Yeah. But not for one second
215. 7:12did I think, all right, well, she knows
216. 7:13where Shannon is and she's in a flat one
217. 7:15and a half miles away. No, I didn't
218. 7:17think that. Towards the end, yes, but
219. 7:19only towards the real end, maybe a few
220. 7:21days before she was arrested. Until
221. 7:23then, no, it was all about um the uh the
222. 7:27behavior of a woman who was under
223. 7:29massive massive pressure and it was and
224. 7:32on top of that uh the pressure of having
225. 7:34the daughter missing was also at the
226. 7:36forefront of the campaign to bring her
227. 7:37back. So that's how I explained it away
228. 7:39to myself.
229. 7:39>> So what was it towards the end in those
230. 7:42last couple of days that made you start
231. 7:43to rethink?
232. 7:44>> Couple of things. Um the uh the
233. 7:47conversation on the estate was at fever
234. 7:49pitch by then and a lot of people were
235. 7:51talking about Karen Strange behavior,
236. 7:53but more and more people had actually
237. 7:54started to say that she'd been involved.
238. 7:56Um and there was one particular night
239. 7:58and to this day I've never known who
240. 8:00this person was. It was a Sunday night.
241. 8:01It was a few days before Karen was
242. 8:03arrested, Jules. Um and uh a car pulled
243. 8:06up on the estate. I was working. And it
244. 8:07was late on the Sunday. It was dark and
245. 8:09and a guy got out and he said um the car
246. 8:11and he said, "Where's that Richard
247. 8:12Edwards from the Yorkshire Evening
248. 8:13Post?" And I thought, "Oh, I've done
249. 8:14something to offend this fella. Um but I
250. 8:16need to front up." So I said, "That's
251. 8:18me." He came over. He was right at the
252. 8:20end of of um Muide Road and he pointed
253. 8:23towards the house and he went, "She's
254. 8:24done it. She's knows she's known where
255. 8:26that little girl has been all along."
256. 8:28Then got into the car and drove off. I
257. 8:30thought, "Right, that was weird." And
258. 8:32that was on the top of the other stuff
259. 8:33I'd been hearing. And then 3 days later,
260. 8:35uh Karen was arrested. and you've no
261. 8:36idea who that person was
262. 8:37>> to this day. Don't know who he was. So,
263. 8:39if he's watching this and wants to get
264. 8:41in touch with me just to explain who he
265. 8:43is and just clear up that tiny little
266. 8:45outstanding part of the story, I would
267. 8:47love to hear from him because he didn't
268. 8:49tell me who he was, but he was right.
269. 8:51>> And Julie, what what about um what about
270. 8:53with you? When did you start to really
271. 8:55kind of think something's not quite
272. 8:57right here?
273. 8:59>> Uh me and Natalie had um doubts. Um same
274. 9:03again down to rumors that were going
275. 9:05around estate. So um Natalie had said
276. 9:08I've got some questions I want to ask
277. 9:09her. So I said right I'll see if I can
278. 9:11sort out this were like on the night. So
279. 9:15then the following morning I rung local
280. 9:18Bobby Kench and he says well I'll pick
281. 9:21you up. So then I rung um family liaison
282. 9:24officer and she says well I'll pick
283. 9:26Karen up. I mean it wasn't arranged as
284. 9:28arranged. She picked Karen up. Um Kench
285. 9:32picked me and Nats up. We met in Batley
286. 9:33the town center.
287. 9:35Um we got out of the police van, went
288. 9:38over to family leaison officer's car,
289. 9:40climbed into back car was sat in front,
290. 9:44family leaison officer wouldn't drive a
291. 9:46seat and it just went from there and no
292. 9:49we didn't plan on her. I mean the it was
293. 9:52that arranged that the family liaison
294. 9:56officer were making jots of notes on
295. 9:58little bits of paper that she were
296. 10:00finding in car. So in no way, shape or
297. 10:02form
298. 10:04>> was it pre-planned?
299. 10:05>> Yeah.
300. 10:05>> But was that the point at which she was
301. 10:07arrested?
302. 10:07>> That was the point at what she was when
303. 10:09she was arrested.
304. 10:09>> How did you feel at that moment in time?
305. 10:12What was going through your mind? When
306. 10:15she actually came out with it, it were
307. 10:17like mixed emotions, relief that it was
308. 10:19over, anger.
309. 10:21>> Yeah.
310. 10:21>> Disappointment, used and abused. But not
311. 10:24just me,
312. 10:25>> the whole
313. 10:25>> the entire community. She just made us
314. 10:28look like plant pots.
315. 10:29>> Were you still You must have still been
316. 10:31left with so many questions.
317. 10:34>> I I did have so many questions. Um I
318. 10:37used to go visit her at prison and I
319. 10:38asked the same questions every time I
320. 10:40went and so you stayed in touch with
321. 10:42her.
322. 10:42>> Okay. How was she? Would she?
323. 10:46>> Well, there were times I went and she
324. 10:47were black and blue and
325. 10:48>> but
326. 10:49>> she'd walked into that many doors,
327. 10:51>> right?
328. 10:52>> Um but I I just wanted the truth and it
329. 10:55didn't matter how many times I asked it
330. 10:56were a different story every time I
331. 10:57went.
332. 10:58>> So you've never really had any clarity.
333. 11:01No
334. 11:01>> from her.
335. 11:02>> She just tells me she was scared of
336. 11:03family. That's all I ever get.
337. 11:05>> Right.
338. 11:06>> Richard, it was made into the BBC
339. 11:08dramatized it a few years ago. Um it's
340. 11:11going to be out now again.
341. 11:12>> Will you watch it? Is it?
342. 11:14>> Yeah, definitely. And and one of the
343. 11:15reasons uh well the main reason that I'm
344. 11:17still happy to talk about it um all
345. 11:20these years along and Julie and I have
346. 11:21spoken about this over the last few days
347. 11:23is because it's a story about community
348. 11:26and togetherness and um and the amazing
349. 11:28people Julie at the front of it all who
350. 11:32never once wavered in that belief that
351. 11:34what they were doing was going to get
352. 11:36that little girl back. If there had been
353. 11:37another outcome, I might have done uh an
354. 11:39interview or two straight afterwards,
355. 11:41but that would have been it. And I
356. 11:42wouldn't be talking about it um all
357. 11:44these years down the line, but that
358. 11:45didn't happen. She was found safe and
359. 11:47that community shone like a star and and
360. 11:50and that's why I'm still happy to go
361. 11:53there and to talk about it now. Julie
362. 11:55and I are mates. We've been mates for um
363. 11:57uh well, 17 years. Probably feels a
364. 11:59longer for you, doesn't it?
365. 12:01Um, and it's a special place with
366. 12:03special people and they set out uh they
367. 12:06did what they set out to achieve and
368. 12:07that should never be forgotten. What an
369. 12:09amazing
370. 12:09>> see that, can't you, in the documentary,
371. 12:11the community spirit, how everybody gets
372. 12:13together and how integral you both were
373. 12:16to everything that happened and the
374. 12:18outcome and obviously the safe return of
375. 12:20Shannon.
376. 12:20>> Every community needs a you. I've got to
377. 12:22say every community needs and Yeah. And
378. 12:24a you. But most definitely a you.
379. 12:26>> Definitely a Julie.
380. 12:27>> Definitely a Julie. Yeah. 100% honestly.
381. 12:29Well, thank you very much for coming in
382. 12:30and telling the story and enlightening
383. 12:31us. And don't forget, The Hunt for
384. 12:33Shannon Matthews is available on Prime
385. 12:35Video from this Sunday, the 17th of
386. 12:37August.
387. 12:38>> Thank you so much for visiting our This
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