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The Greatest Spy Escape In History | Oleg Gordievsky (Ep6) — Transcript

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0:04[Music]
0:08On Thursday night, I again slept with
0:10the doors barricaded and my railway
0:13ticket under a napkin on the tin tray.
0:16On Friday, feeling emotional and
0:18overexited, I spent the morning cleaning
0:20the flat. I knew I would probably never
0:22see the place again, but I wanted to
0:24leave everything in perfect order. I did
0:27not doubt that the KGB would study every
0:29detail, and I was anxious that they
0:30should find things ship shape, washing
0:33up done, crockery put away, documents in
0:36place, spare cash on the shelf. Having
0:39calculated that 80 rubles would suffice
0:42for my journey, I left 220 in a neat
0:45pile, enough at that date to keep Ila
0:48going for a couple of months. In spite
0:51of all the care I took, I forgot one
0:53special item. The snuff I had bought in
0:56case I had to deal with inquisitive
0:58search dogs at the frontier. At last,
1:02about 4 p.m. It was time to leave. Well,
1:06welcome to the rest is classified. I'm
1:08David McCloskkey.
1:09>> And I'm Gordon Carrera. And that is Oleg
1:12Gordski writing in his memoir about the
1:17night before he escapes or attempts to
1:21escape the Soviet Union. And we left him
1:24last time, Gordon, in this bind of
1:27really he escapes or if he dies. And now
1:31the die is cast. He is got his apartment
1:35totally cleaned, which I find absolutely
1:37>> I find that bizarre
1:38>> fascinating and a great little insight
1:41into the man's personality. So, his
1:43apartment is cleaned and he is ready to
1:46go. The escape plan, Operation Pimlo, is
1:50now in motion.
1:52>> I'm not sure if I had a few hours left
1:54in my apartment, I'd spend it cleaning
1:56so that the KGB could could could find
1:59it in a fit state. I think I'd make it
2:01messy for them and make it difficult for
2:02them. But that's the man disciplined.
2:05>> It gets to the ego thing again. I think
2:07he has a sense of superiority and he
2:09wants to demonstrate that he until the
2:12last moment is in control of the
2:15situation.
2:15>> Yeah. Right.
2:16>> That's right. It's control.
2:17>> It's a control thing. And that control
2:19is going to be vital because this is a
2:21man who as we said all along is
2:23disciplined and focused. But the
2:25pressure he is going to come under now.
2:28I mean he's been under pressure already
2:30and now in these final hours as he tries
2:33to escape it is going to get so intense
2:36for him because the question is how do
2:39you get out of Moscow under the watching
2:43eyes of the KGB who have you under
2:46suspicion? I mean, it's almost
2:48impossible for anyone to get out of the
2:50USSR, the Soviet Union without impro
2:53approval.
2:54>> Normal people who are not being sort of
2:56surveiled by the KGB. Like that's hard
2:59to get out, right?
3:00>> Let alone with your Yeah. KGB officer
3:02under suspicion. So, the plan will be
3:05for an MI16 based at the embassy in
3:08Moscow to drive him over the border into
3:10Finland. And the idea is that cars are
3:13not normally subject to search because
3:15of diplomatic immunity. But the question
3:17is how do you get Oleg into a car to the
3:20border with no one spotting? And the
3:23plan Pimlo as we've we know it's called
3:26is for a rendevous point close to the
3:29border with Finland. That requires him
3:32not being followed. The MI6 team not
3:35being suspected or searched. And the MI6
3:38team, including their wives, are
3:40normally tailed by three to five cars
3:42and foot surveillance wherever they go.
3:44Their apartments are bugged. It's a
3:46small station. It's under intense
3:48pressure. Now, it's worth saying that
3:51the MI6 station chief, the head of
3:54station in Moscow at this time, has
3:56outed himself. We've said before that
3:58normally MI6 officers while they're
4:00alive are anonymous, but Raymond Aswith
4:04has appeared and talked about his role
4:08in the escape, particularly in a a BBC
4:11documentary a couple of years ago called
4:13Secrets and Spies, a nuclear game. and
4:15he discusses it. So, we're going to talk
4:18about him since he's put this out in the
4:20public domain himself and he says he
4:21it's out in the public domain. Worth
4:23noting that Raymond Aswith is also the
4:27>> recognize that name Gordon.
4:28>> He is the Earl of Oxford and he will
4:31become he's not at this point but he's
4:33he will become the Earl of Oxford and
4:35he's actually a hereditary peer whose
4:38greatgrandfather was the prime minister
4:40as I don't think that many MI6 officers
4:43are hereditary peers now. don't think
4:45any from the CIA would have been because
4:46you don't have that kind of system.
4:48>> We overthrew that system, Gordon.
4:49>> We overthrew that system. But in that
4:52documentary I mentioned, he actually
4:53tells a story about at one point he's
4:56having an argument with his wife in
4:57their Moscow apartment. And they're
4:59arguing about where they'd already
5:01agreed to take their children on a
5:03picnic on the weekend, which park it
5:05was. And they've got a different
5:06recollection about which park it was
5:08going to be. And so he decides to
5:10address the ceiling knowing that there's
5:13a bugging device in the ceiling. And he
5:15just says to them, almost joking, "Well,
5:17where did we agree to go to?" And to his
5:20amazement, a note appears a few hours
5:23later under the door telling him which
5:26park they'd agreed to, he says, "I
5:28thought that was a KGB officer with a
5:30good sense of humor." It reminds me
5:31there's a very similar story pretty
5:34close to the same period of time and a
5:36CIA officer who had served in Moscow
5:39around the same time. He and his wife
5:41got lost on their way to a restaurant
5:45where they were going for dinner and
5:47they literally all they had to do was
5:48just let the KGB officers take them
5:50there because the KGB of course knew
5:52where they were going and exactly how to
5:54get there. So they just followed the the
5:56surveillance dinner, right? Yeah.
5:58Exactly.
6:00But yeah, that does give you a sense
6:02though, doesn't it, of just how intense
6:03that surveillance is on the families.
6:06And they've practiced the drive so that
6:09they know where they're going. The plan
6:12is two cars, Raymond Asswith, and also
6:15his deputy. And the plan of two cars is
6:19of course partly because they think, and
6:21the original plan has the full family
6:23coming out, Oleg, his wife, and his two
6:25daughters. I mean, they actually have a
6:26plan that if they need to, they're going
6:28to have to chloroform the kids so that
6:30they can cope with being put in a car
6:32boot. So, the plan is the two cars are
6:34going to leave Moscow on Friday and stay
6:36overnight in Lengrad and before going
6:38over to Finland on Saturday. Now, the
6:40pretext is that one of the officers
6:42wives needs some medical treatment cuz
6:45she's ill. It's kind of relatively
6:47urgent. And so the families decide that
6:50they're going to accompany her and make
6:51it a kind of weekend trip for both
6:53families, including crucially a newborn
6:56baby, and the baby is breastfeeding,
6:59which is very newborn baby, but they
7:02also kind of figure this might help with
7:04the cover story. And they're making
7:05phone calls to London to establish the
7:08cover story, and they're speaking to the
7:10ceiling, you know, and moaning and
7:11talking about the pain. And one of the
7:13things they'll later learn actually is
7:15that the KGB didn't think that a posh
7:17MI6 officer like Raymond Aswith would
7:21take a baby on such a perilous
7:24operation. So it kind of works. Now had
7:28the plan that Valerie Patit had come up
7:31with it wasn't this specific when she
7:34had written it years earlier, right? I
7:36mean, was it sort of like phase three is
7:39you jin up an excuse to drive to Finland
7:41or was it down to this level of detail?
7:44Cuz this is some pretty good
7:45improvisation if not I think there's a
7:48high level of detail and all they've
7:50done is adapt the plan over the years so
7:52that for instance it's going to be two
7:53cars when they've got the kids. So
7:55they've definitely changed it, but the
7:57fundamentals are kind of there. And so
8:01that's the plan, but of course, as we
8:03said, at every stage, stuff just goes
8:06wrong. So the first problem is the new
8:08British ambassador, the one who we
8:10mentioned last time is bit unhappy about
8:12the whole fuss being made, you know,
8:15right in his first few days, is arriving
8:17in the embassy that Friday, and he's
8:20going to have a welcome party for staff.
8:23And so of course, like if you're two
8:25officers of the embassy, would they
8:27really miss that party? And if they're
8:29not there, it's suspicious. So they
8:31decide, okay, we're going to have to
8:33leave after the party and drive through
8:35the night to still make the rendeoo
8:38point, which is going to be 2:30 the
8:40next afternoon near the border, where
8:43Oleg is also supposed to turn up. And of
8:45course, there's no contact with Oleg. So
8:46you can't say, can we make it the next
8:48day or can we make it a bit later in the
8:51afternoon? So meanwhile, Friday
8:53afternoon, Gordifi Oleg knows it's time.
8:56400 p.m. he leaves the flat. Now he's
8:59wearing something like a tracksuit and
9:00he makes out he's going jogging, but
9:03rather than jogging, he starts slowly
9:06and then speeds up. He runs fast to
9:08something like a sprint. And remember,
9:11you know, going back all the way
9:12through, he's a runner. His escape
9:15required all the characteristics we
9:17spoke about the start about this longd
9:19distance runner. The physical skills of
9:22running are going to be part of it and
9:24the endurance and the physical endurance
9:26but also the ability to deal with
9:28pressure when you're alone. That
9:30loneliness of the long-distance runner.
9:32So he's running. He heads into some
9:34nearby woods. He gets on a bus. He
9:36thinks he's clean of surveillance. He
9:38heads to the Leningrad train station. He
9:40walks through a big crowd to try and get
9:42there. He's been through metro stations
9:43and shops. When he gets to the station
9:46which takes you to Leningrad in Moscow,
9:49the police are everywhere and that he
9:51he's panicked about that. He think
9:52there's a lot of surveillance
9:54potentially on him. And then he
9:55remembers, no, no, no, there's a
9:56festival taking place. That explains it.
9:59So, he's already bought himself a
10:01fourthass train ticket. I didn't realize
10:04fourth class. He's treating himself as
10:06he as he leaves. I think I'd go first
10:08class. Maybe that's suspicious. Is that
10:10like a lavatory seat or something like
10:12that? That seems like it should. Is Is
10:15fourth class the bottom of the barrel?
10:17>> I guess it is. It's kind of interesting,
10:20isn't it? So much for classless
10:21communist society with four classes of
10:23the train tickets.
10:25It's an overnight train which is going
10:27that evening and he's on the top bunk
10:30and in the middle of the night he falls
10:32out of the bunk cuz he's taken some
10:34sedatives to kind of calm him down and
10:37he cuts his head and so he's bleeding so
10:40he's starting to look a mess. So, he's
10:43still in the tracksuit and I think he's
10:45still in the tracksuit and and he sees
10:47this woman and he thinks, "Oh, I'll talk
10:48to her because they're talking about
10:49something interesting." And she just
10:51takes one look at him and just recoils
10:53and says, "If you speak one word to me,
10:55I'll scream." She says,
10:58cuz he just look he think she thinks
11:01he's going to chatter up and he's he's
11:02just making conversation. He looks so
11:05bad.
11:05>> He's sweaty. He's sweaty from the
11:07sedatives and sweaty and bloody and in a
11:10dirty tracksuit. So that is Friday night
11:13in our timeline. Meanwhile, the MI6 team
11:16head out after the party and there's a
11:18kind of mix of fatalism, I think, and
11:20excitement as they head out with their
11:21families. I think they know this is the
11:25last thing they'll probably end up doing
11:26in Moscow because if they succeed,
11:29people are going to know it. There's
11:30going to be trouble. And if they fail,
11:32they're going to get caught and there's
11:33going to be even more trouble. So, it's
11:36going to be trouble either way, but
11:37either through triumph or disaster. And
11:40you know, Assw as in the TV documentary
11:42will say he was bloody frightened. The
11:45sun is rising on Saturday morning as
11:47they're driving towards Leningrad.
11:49They're playing good detail this Drait's
11:52brothers in arms in one of the cars.
11:54That's from Ben McIntyre, the spy and
11:55the traitor. And as will say, "It was
11:57such a beautiful day, you'd think
11:59nothing bad could happen." Now
12:01surveillance vehicles are following them
12:03almost all the way. So they've got
12:05surveillance on their tail and they had
12:08to reach the designated spot close to
12:11the Finnish border at exactly the right
12:12moment, not too early or too late. So
12:15they have to kill some time. They visit
12:16a monastery. They're still under
12:18surveillance. Meanwhile, Oleg had got to
12:21Leningrad. Then he's taking another
12:23train to take him closer to the Finnish
12:25border. Then he gets a bus
12:28and he gets off the bus at a particular
12:30point and walks to the Rodeo viewpoint
12:32which has a large stone which is the
12:34marker that's recognizable and he gets
12:38there and it's tall conifer trees and he
12:41sits there and there's mosquitoes
12:43everywhere and they're biting him and he
12:45also looks at his watch and he is nearly
12:494 hours early. He's tired, you know,
12:53he's stressed. He's acting oddly. I
12:57guess you should just wait there for
12:58four hours with the mosquitoes noring
13:00you, but I think the stress is too much.
13:03So, he actually decides he's going to
13:04hitchhike back to the nearest town to
13:08get some lunch and he goes to get some
13:10chicken and a beer.
13:12>> I mean, it's mad, isn't it? I think
13:14under that intense pressure, you're just
13:16not thinking straight, are you?
13:17>> Probably not thinking straight. And
13:19also, I mean, I guess depending on how
13:22well screened the area is, it's
13:26potentially in his mind like he's more
13:29vulnerable waiting there, but
13:31>> it it doesn't seem like that's the kind
13:33of spot that would have been chosen. So,
13:34it does seem like you're increasing your
13:36risk by going back. And I guess it's
13:38understandable because maybe you're at a
13:39point where you're thinking, I actually
13:41can't sit in one place for four hours.
13:43I'm going to lose my mind.
13:44>> Just wait. Yeah, I'm gonna lose my mind
13:45with mosquitoes noring me. I mean, he's
13:47been living under surveillance and fear
13:49for two months in Moscow. Two months.
13:53>> I want to come back to that for a
13:55second, though, because up to this
13:56point, it doesn't seem like he's had
13:58surveillance on him over the past
14:01>> 24, 48 hours.
14:03>> Yeah, he's lost it.
14:04>> Has he lost them or had they actually
14:06pulled surveillance off? Because it's a
14:08resource game, right? They've got plenty
14:10of different targets to look at. He's
14:12just one of them. I mean, did they pull
14:14surveillance and so he was just clean
14:15the whole time? Or had he actually had
14:18he actually lost them along the way and
14:20they couldn't find him? They're looking
14:21for him, but they can't find him because
14:22I think they lose him. That's it. Yeah,
14:26you're throwing all kinds of resources
14:27at this in Moscow, right? So, I think a
14:30few things are going on in Moscow. I
14:31think one is they had very intense
14:34surveillance early on and I think this
14:37is part of his game is to play for time
14:39and I think he knows the surveillance
14:41will be reduced and get sloppier as
14:45those two months progresses. So by this
14:48point it's got lighter. I also think in
14:50Moscow they just don't think anyone can
14:52possibly escape. You know they just
14:54don't think it's possible that he could
14:55do it. And so he has got surveillance on
14:58him around his apartment, but it's less
15:02intense than it might have been and he's
15:04lost them at that point. But it's
15:06interesting and we'll come back to this
15:07I think with the cars as well that I
15:09think it hasn't set off alarm bells
15:12instantly in Moscow because I think he's
15:14done dry cleaning routes before. We
15:16talked about it when he did the signal.
15:17He's lost people. So I think there's
15:19this understanding that he occasionally
15:22drops out of coverage but will pop back
15:25up again and that's clearly happened
15:27before because he's done counter
15:28surveillance routes when he's done that
15:30signal on the Tuesday night you know
15:32when he's there with the with the bag
15:33the Safeway bag. So I think they will
15:35have known that occasionally they'll
15:37lose him but it for a couple of hours
15:40and then he'll come back again. So I
15:41think that means they've not hit the
15:42panic button in Moscow overnight at that
15:45point. Although you'd think they would
15:46be, but of course it's also Saturday
15:48morning at this point. He had left the
15:51late afternoon the previous day, right?
15:53So he's been gone overnight presumably
15:56if there was surveillance of any kind.
15:58They'd be worried on his apartment in
16:01Moscow. They would see that he's not
16:02there and you would have had alarm bells
16:04going off
16:06>> because even if you think it's going to
16:07be hard to escape, it's not impossible.
16:09The way that this appears to me is that
16:13they had pulled surveillance off of him
16:15for this period and that there was no
16:17one actually following him at any point
16:20and nor did they know that he had
16:21actually left Moscow. I think it's also
16:24that problem that the KGB don't want to
16:27it's pretty tightly held that he's under
16:29investigation. I don't think it's widely
16:32known and I think if they have got a
16:33little bit of surveillance they may have
16:36not wanted to tell people and just hope
16:39>> Oops. Yeah.
16:39>> Yeah. Yeah.
16:40>> So, he's gone for his chicken lunch and
16:42beer. Then suddenly he realizes it's
16:441:00, but he might be late.
16:47>> He's in like a parallel universe during
16:49this time, isn't it? He's out of his
16:50gourd.
16:51>> Yeah, I think that's right. I think he's
16:53in a really weird space and I think, you
16:55know, there's no doubt he's making odd
16:58decisions, but who can blame him. So, he
16:59actually has to hitchhike with a lorry
17:01driver to get back to the site, you
17:04know, and if he gets it wrong, he might
17:06have missed it, which would have been a
17:08disaster, but he's got a beer and he's
17:09back in the grass. And he says, "These
17:11were the hardest moments cuz the
17:13mosquitoes are biting him. He's worried
17:15he is too late. He's missed it. And if
17:17so, they're not going to come back." He
17:18at one point he walks out onto the road
17:21and he actually then tells himself,
17:23"Stop. This is madness. I've got to go
17:25back and wait." Now, meanwhile, the MI6
17:27team has been trying to get towards the
17:29border. It's come out of Leningrad. City
17:31surveillance hands over to provincial
17:33surveillance. So, again, they're being
17:36followed, but I don't think they're
17:38being followed in a way that they think
17:39they're on an operation. So, it's not
17:41the most intense surveillance. It's kind
17:42of regular surveillance, if you like,
17:45rather than they're really up to
17:48something. And at one point, yeah, this
17:50is what's crazy is the idea is they're
17:52going to find this rendev view point and
17:53then slip in, have a picnic, and then
17:56get out. But that depends on having a
17:59gap between the surveillance car. And at
18:02one point, they're bracketed by KGB
18:04surveillance cars. So, one car is in
18:06front and one is behind. And that is a
18:09huge problem because you can't do
18:11anything at that point. You've got no
18:13room to speed up, slow down, do
18:15anything. And so Aswith decides to play
18:18games with them to kind of annoy them.
18:20And he slows down to about 20 m an hour.
18:25Now, of course, if it's a real car
18:26behind, it would have to overtake. He's
18:29kind of telling them, "I know what
18:30you're doing. I'm just going to screw
18:31you. I'm going to slow down. The one in
18:33front has to slow down." And eventually,
18:36he kind of plays with them the point
18:37where the one in front gives up and
18:41comes to the rear. And so now the cars
18:44are behind him. So it's pretty lucky,
18:46but he's about 20 miles away from the
18:48rendevous spot and they're still being
18:50tailed by surveillance. And so they've
18:52got to shake off these cars and soon and
18:55they're running late for the meeting
18:56time. And then they get a stroke of
18:59luck. Had lots of bad luck in this
19:01operation. Here's a bit of good luck.
19:02All the cars on the highway are stopped
19:05for 10 minutes because a a convoy of
19:07tanks has to pass. So the surveillance
19:09cars stop behind the MI6 cars. Then once
19:14the the military convoy, the tanks pass,
19:17the MI6 cars floor it, Asqu is driving a
19:21SAB and his deputy at Ford. And the
19:23advantage they've got is they've got
19:25Western cars which have obviously been
19:27imported in and are faster and better
19:30than the KGB surveillance cars. So they
19:33leave them in a cloud of dust as they
19:35just floor the accelerator and zoom off.
19:39And that means a gap is now opening up
19:41with the surveillance cars behind them
19:43which are still coming out of the the
19:45traffic which had stopped for this
19:46convoy. So now they're approaching the
19:49site and the marker which is just after
19:52a turn. So you've got the you you've got
19:54the ability to lose surveillance. They
19:56hit the corner, they slam on the brakes,
19:58they swing off into this layby in the
20:00forest. The surveillance cars now
20:02desperate to catch up roar past.
20:06They've stopped, but are they too late?
20:09I mean, the plan would be to have a kind
20:10of fake picnic as cover, and so the
20:14wives are getting out the picnic stuff,
20:15but as they do, a smelly looking
20:19tramplike figure who Asquid will later
20:21describe as looking like a Norwegian
20:24troll
20:25will get out of a ditch and just say,
20:28"Witch car." That's all he says.
20:33I mean, what a moment. I mean, it's
20:35wild. So, Gordy actually recognizes the
20:38driver of the Ford car as as the person
20:40he'd seen eating a Mars bar, you know,
20:42and who's he blocked eyes with on the
20:44Moscow street. He takes off his shoes
20:47cuz he's worried he's got that spy dust.
20:50The spy dust. Yeah.
20:51>> Yeah. So, he puts them in a plastic bag
20:52and he's bundled into the boot of the
20:54Ford car. It's the trunk for our
20:56American listeners. Yes.
20:59>> And a heat reflecting blanket is put
21:01over him and that's the full infrared
21:03sensors. He's given a bottle in which to
21:06urinate and more seditive pills to calm
21:08him down. He gulps them straight away.
21:11Cars get on the move. They reckon it
21:13takes less than a minute and a half to
21:16do that to get him in, get him ready,
21:20and move off. And they're back on the
21:21way to the border. Now, this is I think
21:23the really interesting bit because they
21:25then pass their surveillance cars at a
21:29checkpoint coming up. What it looks like
21:32happened is the KGB assume the Brits
21:35stopped for a bathroom break and so they
21:37just fall back inside them. And it's
21:40interesting because of course this
21:41provincial surveillance team hasn't been
21:43told who they're following or why or
21:45that it's important and they've got a
21:47bit of a decision here I think cuz
21:48they've got to work out do they admit
21:50that they lost them for a minute and a
21:51half and report it or do they just kind
21:54of hope for the best and think it was a
21:56bathroom break and you know we're not
21:58going to bother reporting that to
21:59headquarters. You're riding your luck
22:00there, aren't you?
22:01>> There's not a lot of upside to reporting
22:03that. It makes you look incompetent if
22:05you're the KGB's second chief director
22:07at guys who are doing this surveillance.
22:10Also, I mean, the reality, I would
22:13suppose, of doing this kind of trailing
22:15vehicular surveillance is there are
22:18going to be short periods where you lose
22:20people. And right now when you're
22:23watching this crew of for all they know
22:26foreign diplomats and they probably
22:27don't know it's the MISX head of station
22:29from Moscow like it's a foreign
22:30diplomats who are just driving around.
22:33This probably feels very typical very
22:37boring and you have no indication at
22:40this point given who's in the vehicle
22:42particularly the baby that they're doing
22:43anything operational. So you're kind of
22:45raising your hand for trouble if you
22:47report that gap, I would think, if
22:49you're the head of that surveillance
22:50team.
22:51>> No, it does make sense. And it is
22:53fortunate cuz if they had raised it,
22:54then it could have slowed things down at
22:56the border. So the MI6 team back in the
22:58cars approached the border. Now, as
23:00diplomatic cars, they should be exempt
23:02from being searched, but there'd been
23:04slight despair about a week or so
23:05earlier when a British military attache
23:07had allowed his trunk to be searched at
23:09the border. And he shouldn't have done,
23:11but they fear it's kind of set a
23:12precedent. And if the search was
23:14demanded, the plan was just for the cars
23:16to refuse and then they've just got to
23:18turn around. So it it's pretty risky.
23:20And one of them actually worries at one
23:22point they've forgotten to even lock the
23:23boot in which Gordioski is sitting. I
23:26mean, which is but I guess you know if
23:28it's not locked, it almost doesn't
23:29matter at that point. And at that moment
23:31back in London, the foreign office
23:33adviser to MI6 is gathered with senior
23:35staff and he looks at his watch and he
23:37says, "Ladies and gentlemen, they're
23:39about to cross the border. I think it
23:41would be appropriate to say a prayer and
23:43and they're going to need it. Multiple
23:45border checks as well, not just one. The
23:47first few go okay. Then you've got the
23:48big checkpoint. It's busy. Everyone's
23:50getting their documents checked. Oleg is
23:52in the boot. He's hot. He's
23:54uncomfortable. And he's smelly. He's
23:57Imagine how smelly he is.
23:59>> Uh he's struggling to breathe. And now
24:02here come the Alsatian sniffer dogs. I
24:06mean, this is this is the problem. The
24:09engine's turned off. Gordifi inside can
24:13actually hear the dog sniffing around
24:16the car and getting closer to him. Now,
24:19he'd been given actually some snuff by
24:21MI6, you know, which we heard about, but
24:23and he'd forgotten it. He's left it
24:24behind.
24:25>> Forgot it. Yeah. He left it behind in
24:26his immaculately cleaned apartment.
24:29>> Yeah. So, the risk is he's smelly. He's
24:32dirty. They're going to smell something.
24:34So, one of the wives of the MI6 opens a
24:37pack of cheese and onion crisps to offer
24:41it to the dogs. Do you have cheese and
24:43onion crisps? Chips. Potato chips in
24:46America.
24:46>> Yeah, I think you can get I You can get
24:48those flavors. I'm not sure. They're
24:50quite strong.
24:51>> Boy, I'm going to say something wrong
24:52here and someone is going to someone's
24:54going to just rip me apart in the, you
24:56know, in the comments. But I don't think
24:59>> it's a very common flavor. I mean, you
25:01have like sour cream and onion would be
25:04more.
25:05>> Do you have that sour cream and
25:06>> Yeah, we do. I do. More like Yeah,
25:08>> but but I think the idea is it's quite
25:10strong. If you're one of these guys
25:12who's working the dogs though, wouldn't
25:13you be ticked if this lady is reaching
25:15out of the car and giving the dog chips
25:17while it's supposed giving crisps to the
25:19dog? It's like
25:19>> the dog is on duty.
25:21>> Yeah. But, you know, but then the dog's
25:25still heading for the boot of the car.
25:27So Aswith's wife takes out her baby
25:30daughter and changes her dirty nappy on
25:35the boot of the Ford car over Oleg
25:39beneath. And then as she's doing it,
25:42obviously a smelly nappy. We've all been
25:44there. And drops it by the boot just as
25:48the dog is approaching it. And the dog
25:50looks disgusted and slinks off. I mean
25:53that is uh
25:55>> some that's thinking on your feet right
25:57there by
25:58>> Mrs. Asworth. Yeah,
25:59>> the Earls the future Earl's wife. Yeah,
26:02that's that's
26:03>> good. I mean cuz that is not something
26:04they give you as a uh item of
26:08tradecraftraft is a dirty nappy. You
26:09know, it's not something you can you can
26:11be provided with as a bit of spy kit. I
26:14don't suggest people go around carrying
26:16dirty nappies in case they need to do
26:17it. But they're cleared to go. They wait
26:20in the queue as they approach the finish
26:21side of the border. More checks.
26:24Barrier's nearly ready to rise. The
26:26phone in the guard's booth rings. He
26:28walks over slowly to answer it. Glances
26:30at the car, puts the phone down.
26:33Everyone's wondering. Finally, you know,
26:35the barrier swings up and the car pulls
26:38out. And then a few moments later,
26:41Gordeski could just remember this so
26:43vividly. I remember talking to him about
26:45it. Suddenly, the music in the car
26:48changes and he hears the ominous,
26:51brooding opening notes of Selius's
26:54Finlandia come onto the car stereo. And
26:57that is the sign. He understands he's in
27:01Finland. He's out. And then a few
27:03moments later, the car stops. The boots
27:06flung open. He could just see blue sky,
27:08white clouds, some pine trees. And there
27:11is the face of Valerie, the officer
27:14who'd made this plan and who'd seen it
27:17through and had been with him from the
27:18start. She's looking down with him and
27:21smiling and she's been there with a a
27:23team on the other side of the border.
27:25Had been her plan. It had worked. Oleg
27:28looks a mess, but somehow he's calm and
27:31controlled. Then also with her is the
27:33the MI6 reports officer who's been
27:35dealing with the political reporting and
27:37he'd been working on this but not
27:38actually met Oleg. and he said you must
27:40be very tired but but we are so very
27:43glad to see you and at that moment the
27:46team from Danish intelligence are
27:48waiting so the Danes still there as part
27:49of the mission it's interesting they're
27:52also going to be there and of course
27:53they were there at the recruitment
27:54they're there here at the finish
27:56>> it is interesting that they're there
27:58obviously
27:58>> yeah I think it's interesting
27:59>> on invitation presumably I mean yeah
28:02>> I think in some ways you know their role
28:04is important and I think there's part of
28:06it which they were there at the
28:08beginning giving some of the initial
28:09tips, but I think it's also useful
28:11because he's placed in the boot of one
28:12of their cars cuz I guess you know
28:15Finland is still, you know, famously
28:17Finland in the Cold War was still
28:19ambiguous territory, wasn't it? The
28:21Soviets had a lot of influence over it.
28:23So, they are not yet safe. So, there
28:25possibly is some benefit of having him
28:27in the boot of a Danish car now rather
28:30than in the
28:30>> a car that's got like British diplomatic
28:32plates on it. That makes sense. I think
28:33they've hired I think they've hired cars
28:35and amusingly they hired a three cars
28:38and then they initially realized they'd
28:40all hired cars and their number plates
28:41were sequential from the car hire place
28:43and they were like that doesn't look
28:44good and so but you know the MI6 reports
28:48officer is going to signal back to
28:49London from a pay phone at a filling
28:51station really enjoyed the fishing it's
28:53been a successful trip and we've had one
28:55guest now this actually causes some
28:57confusion because in London they kind of
29:00go wait what one guest you know is that
29:02mean Oleg and only one other person and
29:04if so, what's happened to the kids? You
29:05know, they think maybe his wife's come
29:06out and then he has to explain, no, no,
29:08no, just one person has come out and
29:11actually the person on the other end of
29:12the phone line is actually quite upset
29:13about this because they kind of think,
29:16has the family been abandoned? Did they
29:17not make it? What happened to the wife
29:19and kids? The car with Oleg will drive
29:22north through the night towards Norway
29:24without stopping. Head into the Arctic
29:26Circle. Summer sun disappears just
29:28briefly for a few hours before it rises
29:30again. Eventually they come to Norway's
29:32north. Then they take a flight back down
29:34south to Oslo and then to London. And of
29:38course the Monday morning
29:41what happens? Mu Beimov that old friend
29:44of Oleg is waiting at the station for
29:47the train which is supposed to carry
29:50Oleg for their time at his. And his
29:53friend doesn't emerge from the last
29:55carriage as it been promised and they
29:57would never speak again. And the KGB is
30:00going to realize he's gone.
30:02>> He's gone. Well, there Gordon, let's
30:05take a break. And when we come back, we
30:07will see how everything shakes out for
30:10for Oleg, for Smiley Mike, for everybody
30:14in the aftermath of this incredible
30:16escape.
30:20Oleg Gordy has escaped the Soviet Union.
30:26And Gordon, I have to think that when
30:28the dust settles pretty quickly after
30:31this escape, it's not looking so good
30:33for the old KGB. No, it's a humiliation,
30:36isn't it? Their future London resident,
30:39under suspicion, has escaped under their
30:43noses. There's no official statement,
30:45but a few days later, the new British
30:47ambassador, the one who just arrived, is
30:48summoned to the foreign ministry.
30:50>> This is his nightmare. This is his
30:52nightmare. He a photograph comes out of
30:55the ambassador with all his team, you
30:57know, of the embassy when he presented
30:59his credentials and the official places
31:02a finger on the faces of the two MI6
31:05officers who'd smuggled Gordski out of
31:07the country. You know, they know exactly
31:10what's happened at this point. And the
31:13ambassador is told that those two and
31:15others have got 48 hours to leave the
31:17country. So meanwhile, Gordy comes to
31:20Britain. He goes to a safe house in the
31:23Midlands initially
31:25see the chief of MI6 at that point it's
31:27Chris Kerwin you know meets him he's
31:29taken to the fort the services training
31:31facility where he's going to be
31:33debriefed extensively and this begins
31:35another productive period for Gordify
31:38it's not over his importance because you
31:40know the reports officer who'd worked
31:42you know on his on his files is going to
31:44start working through all the details
31:46they can now extract about him you know
31:49he is going to become an adviser to
31:50Margaret Thatcher on how to deal with
31:52the Soviet Union. She's going to express
31:54her gratitude to him about how much he'd
31:57helped. And actually, even while he's at
31:59the fort, the Americans are going to
32:00turn up that September. So, he's got out
32:03in July in September. Bill Casey, who's
32:05this kind of rather famous head of the
32:07CIA under Reagan, actually comes to the
32:10fort to see Gordifki. And the reason is
32:13Reagan is about to meet Gorbachof in
32:15Geneva for a summit. And Casey, someone
32:17described this scene to me. It was then
32:19Casey sat sat in front of Gordy with a a
32:22yellow and blue CIA not notebook. I
32:24don't know if such thing still exists.
32:25>> I would like one if it does
32:27>> with a big seal on it. And and the
32:29person who was there described him as
32:31scribbling like a school boy. Casey
32:33famously was a mumbler and he could
32:35>> big mumbler. Yeah,
32:36>> big mumbler. Didn't speak very clearly.
32:38And so C the chief of MI6 is
32:40occasionally having to translate for
32:42Oleg what he's saying. And they do a
32:44kind of role playinging game where Casey
32:46says, you know, you're Mr. Gordov, he
32:48says, pointing to Gordifski. And I'm Mr.
32:51Reagan. What about if we give you access
32:53to Star Wars? What do you say? Casey
32:56says, and Gordski leans back in his seat
32:58and he goes, "Net." "And why?" says
33:01Casey. And he says, "I don't trust you.
33:02You'll never give us anything." And you
33:04can see here this role of Goryki as
33:08being able to give insight into how the
33:10Soviet Union think, you know, is still
33:13there because, you know, he just
33:15attended a meeting in Moscow about the
33:18Geneva talks in which the KGB had said
33:21there's no point trusting the US since
33:23it had no desire for a serious
33:25agreement. So he's able to kind of give
33:27Casey an insight ahead of the summit
33:30about how the the the Soviets will react
33:33and you know they have a discussion
33:35about whether it's feasible to drop Star
33:37Wars and SDI or not. And later Gordeski
33:40is actually going to go to the Oval
33:41Office and meet President Reagan in
33:43person and and and there's a famous
33:45picture of the two of them sacked by the
33:47fireplace in the Oval Office. And later
33:49he'll meet um George HW Bush. So his
33:52influence is still going in these years
33:55after he was out. And former ambassador
33:58to Moscow, kind of a real Russia expert
34:01called Rodrik Braithweight said
34:03something which I think is interesting
34:04which is that the importance of Gordi
34:08was the fact that political leaders
34:11could hear something from him. He as an
34:14ambassador Braithweight could write
34:16something in a report and the
34:18politicians would go, "Yeah, well that's
34:19just a, you know, report for the
34:21embassy." But if Gordski says it to
34:24Reagan and Thatcher and other people,
34:25they listen because this is an XKGB guy
34:28who's lived there and been there. And I
34:30think that is really one of the values
34:32he has as an adviser afterwards. So he's
34:35hugely important. And I suppose the
34:37analysis he offers there, I mean, in the
34:39example where he's role playing with
34:40Casey, it's not particularly original,
34:43right? No,
34:44>> but to the point of the former
34:45ambassador to Russia, it's insightful
34:48because of who is explaining it, who's
34:50giving the analysis, right?
34:51>> Who it is. Yeah. And the source.
34:53>> Yeah. He has this very important role
34:55then for the coming years, but there are
34:58personal costs. And I think one is that
34:59his family is still in the Soviet Union.
35:02So, you know, MI6 are going to try and
35:04get him out. And actually, you know,
35:06Jerry Warner, who's a senior British
35:08intelligence officer, goes to Paris and
35:10and and gets the Paris station to
35:12engineer a meeting with a someone from
35:14the Soviet embassy at a club and he
35:17gives the message to the Soviet diplomat
35:20who's actually not a KGB man. And he
35:21says, "We've got a message for you." And
35:24the man goes white and he goes, "You're
35:26looking for Gordi. We've got him. We
35:28want his family out." And the offer that
35:31Britain makes is that the expulsions
35:35that are going to come from Britain can
35:37be minimized and they can also be
35:40discreet and slow rather than public and
35:44a big row if the Russians if Moscow lets
35:50Gordski's family out. But the reply from
35:52Moscow is just no. And reuniting him
35:55with his family. It's going to be a
35:56priority for British government.
35:57Thatcher will raise it with Gorbachoff
36:00repeatedly, but it takes years. And it's
36:02actually only in 1991 as the kind of
36:04Cold War is ending that they finally are
36:07allowed to come out. Wow.
36:10>> And then it's a tragedy really for Oleg
36:14because it's too late for their
36:15marriage. He kept everything from his
36:18wife. He'd not told her he's working for
36:20British intelligence. that had shielded
36:23her when she's inevitably interrogated
36:25by the KGB and it had protected her, but
36:28it also left her kind of bitter, I
36:30think, at not having known the truth and
36:32then their marriage falls apart. It
36:34makes sense cuz I guess in effect he
36:36chose
36:38his espionage work over the family and
36:42he did I mean you can understand the
36:44reasons for it but he he left them
36:45behind, right? He left them behind and
36:47obviously for it was not could not have
36:50been a comfortable situation for the
36:52family in the Soviet Union after he left
36:54period. Right.
36:55>> Yeah.
36:56>> So yeah and then his daughters who are
36:58now I think about 10 or 11 also barely
37:00remember him more than 6 years after he
37:03left. And and it again there's an
37:06element of of real personal costs to
37:08this because he's never reconciled to
37:11them even to the end of his life
37:12actually. They never quite patch it up.
37:15And so you do get a sense of a man who'd
37:18followed his beliefs, but in doing so
37:20had paid a pretty heavy personal price.
37:22He'd given up a lot. He'd been wedded to
37:24his mission, as you said, but he'd had
37:26to put everything else out of his mind.
37:28It's that kind of single-minded tunnel
37:30vision of the long-distance runner
37:32again, isn't it? And then, you know, the
37:34other characters, I mean, Aldrich Ames,
37:36CIA man, takes a few years to get him,
37:39doesn't it?
37:40>> It does. It does. I mean, 1994.
37:43>> Yeah. Yeah.
37:43>> So, Ames gives over the names of oh, I
37:47think almost two dozen
37:49>> Yeah.
37:49>> CIA assets in in Russia in 85. And yeah,
37:55he's not uprooted until 1994,
37:59which leads to to a crazy fact, which is
38:02Gordi and Ames meet at Langley. I mean,
38:06this is kind of wild, isn't it? It's
38:08insane. So, Gordifi is over kind of
38:10speaking to people at Langley doing a
38:13talk and he's introduced to the guy who
38:16probably betrayed him and he remembers
38:18it. Seems like he's a nice guy. Now,
38:21he's going to get caught later, but
38:22there is still this slight debate and we
38:24won't get into the depths of it here as
38:26to whether it was Ames who gave away
38:29Gordi and there's still some dispute
38:31about it, isn't there, in Washington and
38:32there because there's still some dispute
38:33about whether there might have been
38:35other traitors inside the CIA period.
38:38Yeah. Well, and I guess the other
38:40character that we've got to reconnect
38:44with is Smiley Mike because
38:46>> yeah,
38:46>> this is another case. I mean, similar to
38:49the family where in pursuit of this, you
38:53know, sort of ideological mission. I
38:54mean, Oleg betrayed a dear friend. I
38:57think I said said this when we first met
38:59Smiley Mike. I I I know him. Visited him
39:01in his Moscow apartment and in his
39:03dacer, the dacer that Oleg I guess was
39:06going to stay at. And I went to that
39:08datcher a few years ago in Russia. I
39:11spoke to both men about each other.
39:13Asked Lubimov about him and he said, "It
39:15was not so easy when you work with a man
39:17all your life and he's a traitor. It was
39:20not just betraying the Soviet Union, but
39:23he betrayed me." That's quite powerful,
39:26isn't it? Because Glubimov himself had
39:28been sacked from the KGB. He's no kind
39:30of KGB super loyalist at this point. But
39:34it's the personal betrayal. Yeah,
39:36>> you can understand it. And and amusingly
39:39talking to Lubimov because Lubimov also
39:41knew Kim Philby very well, the great
39:43British traitor from MI6. And I found it
39:46quite funny talking to Lubimov because
39:48he would be like, Kim Philby is a hero
39:50or Ole Gordy is a traitor. And you'd be
39:53like, what why is one, you know, is it
39:55not positioned what's the
39:57>> I guess where you stand depends on where
39:58you sit, right? I mean, he's
40:01>> emphatically viewing this from the
40:02standpoint of HB, right?
40:04>> Yeah. But then it was interesting
40:06because then I you know having seen
40:07Lubimov I went to see Gordifi and I said
40:10to Gordfki you know what do you say to
40:14Lubimov who says you are a traitor and
40:17I'll never forget this conversation
40:18because we were having this conversation
40:20in Oleg's house in Surrey bottle of wine
40:23on the table and I broached it
40:26gingerely. He was quite a stern
40:28character. There was a flash of temper I
40:30think when I raised the accusation that
40:34he was a traitor. And then this is the
40:36answer he gave me. He said the betrayal
40:39question is pointless because it was a
40:42criminal state. The most criminal
40:45element of the criminal state was the
40:47KGB. It was a gang of bandits. To betray
40:51bandits was very good for the soul. M I
40:55think it's one of the most interesting
40:58comments because I think you can spend
41:00this time thinking oh you know it's all
41:03about betrayal espionage
41:06one side betrays the other Philby
41:08betrays on one side Gordeski the other
41:09side but Gordeski when he's faced with
41:13this accusation really of betrayal his
41:16response is so interesting because his
41:18argument is to betray a criminal regime
41:22is good for the soul in In other words,
41:25it depends on what you're betraying.
41:28There is a difference between
41:31someone who betrays their country for
41:34base motives and someone who betrays
41:37their country because they believe it is
41:39criminal and because they believe in a
41:41set of values. And if that is your
41:44motivation, it is good for the soul
41:47betrayal. So in other words, the
41:49betrayal depends on what you're
41:51betraying rather than simply the act
41:54itself. And I think that kind of for me
41:57gets to the heart of the morality of
42:00espionage and the sense it's not about
42:02moral equivalence in the cold war
42:04between two sides. But it depends on
42:06what you're betraying and what you
42:08believe in. And that is Oleg, isn't it?
42:11to the point around I guess the
42:14structure of his soul.
42:17It does seem like his kind of post
42:20espionage life in Great Britain,
42:23although obviously he's got the family
42:26issues,
42:28>> he seems more well adjusted than a lot
42:31of other kind of defectors or people who
42:36have spied and then come out and they're
42:38sort of left in this limbo state. like
42:41he it seems like he kind of maybe it's
42:44maybe it's because of the the sort of
42:46strength of his convictions. Seems like
42:48he was able to sort of also grit through
42:52really his kind of post escape life. No
42:55one's post escape postfection life is
42:59easy and I think everyone knows you're a
43:01kind of declining asset over time. Your
43:04your relevance and importance is bound
43:05to kind of diminish over time. But I
43:08think his, you know, his afterlife is
43:09easier than for instance Kim Phil's. I
43:12don't think he ever has the doubts about
43:15what he did and why he did it. I think
43:17that's the key. I mean, Philby will
43:18always pretend he never had any doubts,
43:20but I think deep down I think he did.
43:23But Gordy, you know, that
43:25single-mindedness, the ideological
43:26motivation is there and I think that
43:29sustains him. Yeah, you know, there's
43:30moments of drink and I think there's
43:32moments of it's not always easy. But I
43:35think the motivation that goes to the
43:37core of him is part of that. I should
43:38say though that he did live under
43:40protection because a death sentence gets
43:43passed in absentia shortly after he
43:45escapes which he lives under and in
43:48later years he does actually worry quite
43:50a lot about being targeted. I mean at
43:51one point I think it's in 2007 he
43:53actually thinks he might have been
43:55poisoned. Now it's not clear whether he
43:57was whether there was an element of
43:58paranoia whether it was real but he
44:00thought he was and then you get the
44:02scriptar poisoning in 2018 former GU
44:05officer who's come to Britain who's
44:07targeted to be killed and that also kind
44:11of raises fears and the the security
44:13which was quite discreet when I used to
44:15go see him was definitely upped after
44:18that and one thing I learned just
44:20recently very recently was that there
44:22were worries actually in the last couple
44:24of years about potential risks or
44:27threats to Oleg cuz twice Russian
44:30diplomats diplomats probably
44:32intelligence officers are seen at a
44:35restaurant you know in Surrey which he
44:37frequents
44:39the view is that this wasn't coincidence
44:41especially cuz it happens you know with
44:43two people and the worries it is
44:45reconnaissance for him so he's told
44:47never to go back there and the security
44:49is upped and you know he died earlier
44:52this year and it was I was aware where
44:54he was ill and reaching the end, but MI6
44:57kept the death incredibly quiet and the
45:00government kept it incred incredibly
45:02quiet. MI6 actually, you know,
45:03bizarrely, don't even comment when he
45:05dies. But I think the reason is they
45:08wanted to to to keep it quiet, be able
45:11to do a post-mortem
45:14and run tests so that when it when they
45:16do make it public, they can confidently
45:19say there was no foul play. Because what
45:22they don't want is for him to die
45:24entirely innocently as as it looks like
45:26of old age and all the normal things,
45:28but they don't want people to go around
45:30saying, "Well, was he poisoned? Was he
45:31killed?" And I think there's a there was
45:33a real nervousness this year, 2025, that
45:36the Russians might play games around his
45:39death. that they might try and if they
45:42found out about it before it was public,
45:45you know, kind of try and spread news or
45:47spread fake news or that there'd be kind
45:50of media questions about about whether
45:52he'd been poisoned. So, there was that
45:54genuine mischief that they feared that
45:57Putin could play around it, which goes
45:59to the kind of current state of
46:00relations and the fact Gordski was right
46:03in some ways, wasn't it? Well, what
46:05former CIA director Bill Burns had this
46:07great line when talking about Putin
46:08where you know he said Vladimir Putin is
46:11the ultimate apostle of payback and I
46:14think
46:15>> Screal is traded back you know in what
46:192010 and then
46:21>> assassins come for him in 2018. So eight
46:24years have passed. I mean, Gordy
46:27is one of the most significant
46:30penetrations of the Russian state in the
46:34past century. So, the idea that the idea
46:36that the Russians would just forget
46:38about him is is preposterous. I mean it
46:40it it would it would be very much in
46:43keeping I think with with um sort of
46:46Vladimir Putin and the Russian state's
46:48behavior to consider him a viable target
46:50even 40 years almost after he's left the
46:54Soviet Union.
46:56>> Yeah. 40 years after after he defects.
46:59It's amazing, isn't it?
47:00>> And I guess it brings us to this
47:02question of did it matter? I think we've
47:06made I think we agree we made the case
47:08in the series that oftentimes you have
47:11human assets like Gordivki that really
47:14can kind of shift the balance of
47:18>> international security, global peace,
47:20geopolitics. I but there's a sense when
47:24we talk about these kind of cold war spy
47:25games that they often
47:28>> almost raise the temperature of the of
47:31the cold war
47:33>> make it more tense or maybe even on the
47:35other side that it's they're ultimately
47:37you know these kind of back and forth
47:40battles between east and west were were
47:43pointless you know but I I think
47:46Gordiovski shows you can have spy games
47:49of consequence that affect outcomes
47:51I think that's right. Strategic
47:53consequence. He gave that understanding
47:55of the mindset. I remember John Scarlet
47:58saying in an interview that the risk in
47:59the cold war and the risk of it going
48:01badly wrong was surprise. What no one
48:04wanted to be was surprised. And what you
48:07need was intelligence to give you the
48:09confidence to manage situations. and
48:13that it was things like Gordifi's
48:15intelligence which helped stop there
48:18being a blowout because suddenly it
48:20opened a window into the mindset of the
48:23of the other side in a way I don't think
48:25anyone else did in that period. I mean
48:28it is interesting because it makes you
48:29think I agree with you sometimes spying
48:31raises tension and sometimes it it
48:33lowers tensions. I mean, it does make
48:34you think there's a benefit you could
48:37almost say in each side having spies in
48:40the heart of the other side if if you
48:43want to understand them and know and
48:46avoid miscalculation or mistakes or
48:49paranoia. It's a kind of interesting
48:50argument because if it goes for
48:53Gordifski on the Soviet side, then does
48:55it also work the other way that it's
48:57useful sometimes for for them to have
48:59spies in our side in that sense of being
49:02able to tell people actually they're not
49:03about to launch a first attack? I mean,
49:05there's a famous quote from Harold
49:07McMillan who was prime minister who
49:08said, "It would be much better if the
49:09Russians saw the cabinet min minutes
49:11twice a week. It would prevent all that
49:14effing dangerous guesswork." And his
49:17point is, you know, actually maybe it
49:19would be better just to give them stuff
49:20so that they they know what we're doing
49:22and what we're thinking to prevent all
49:24the kind of dangerous guesswork because
49:26the Cold War, you know, there's
49:28dangerous guesswork. There's
49:29miscalculation. There's misestimation of
49:32your opponent. And what intelligence
49:35does at its highest level is prevent
49:38that. And that's why I think Gordioski
49:41was so important. There's the counter
49:44inelligence value. There's the drama,
49:46there's the human story, but it is that
49:48strategic importance which I don't know.
49:51I don't know what you think, but I think
49:52I'd put him down as amongst the most
49:56consequential spies, certainly of the
49:59Cold War, perhaps full stop.
50:02>> Yeah, undoubtedly. I think he's up there
50:04in the pantheon. You know, we did the
50:07series earlier in the year on on
50:08Tolkvev, and I think, you know, you you
50:11could make a case that both of these
50:14both of these guys are right up there in
50:16terms of the most important spies of the
50:18Cold War. I think where Gordy Gabbki,
50:20and you know, it's I mean, it's a sort
50:22of a uh an interesting but potentially
50:25useless argument to say which of these
50:27two might have been more valuable, and
50:29it's not even it's probably not even
50:31that interesting of a conversation in
50:33the end. But I think the uniqueness of
50:36what Gordivki did was to not eliminate
50:41but to minimize that guesswork. Right.
50:44Yeah. at at an absolutely
50:48tense, white hot point in the Cold War,
50:52there was somebody who was kind of
50:54sitting as almost a clandestine bridge
50:58between both sides, explaining why
51:02neither one actually wanted the Cold War
51:05to go hot
51:06>> and making it easier and more rational
51:11to sort of escape that kind of dangerous
51:14spir. role. And for that alone, I think
51:17he's got to be seen as I mean an an
51:21exceptionally interesting human, but
51:23also a a spy of real consequence.
51:26>> I think that's right. And so with him
51:28having departed this year, 2025, I think
51:31having run the race, the long-distance
51:34runner, he made it to the end. And I
51:38think for that he deserves a a toast.
51:42Maybe not a vodka fueled toast like
51:44Arcardi G would have had.
51:45>> He was a wine guy.
51:46>> He was a wine guy. A red wine guy. But I
51:49I will I will raise a glass tonight to
51:51Oleg and say farewell and thank you for
51:54all you did because he was a brave and I
51:56think an exceptional man.
51:58>> I think that's the spot to end it.
52:00Bordon and we would be remiss, even
52:03though we're at the end of a series if
52:05we did not encourage everyone to both
52:08raise a glass to Ole Goryki tonight and
52:12go and join the Declassified club at the
52:14restisclassified.com where you can get
52:16access to bonus episodes, early access
52:19to series, a whole bunch of other
52:20goodies. Please do go ahead and join up
52:24and we'll see you next time. See you
52:26next time.
52:28[Music]

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