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The Gottman Doctors: Women Tend to Be More Unhappily Married & Non-Cuddlers Have an Awful Sex Life! — Transcript

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0:00women tend to be more Unhappily Married
0:02than men and 80% of the time women bring
0:06up problems in a relationship but 69% of
0:09all problems are not solvable so if you
0:12rely on problems getting solved as an
0:15indicator of the success of the
0:17relationship it's not going to look good
0:19Dr Jong and Dr Julie gotman
0:21world-renowned researchers and clinical
0:23psychologists who've been married 36
0:26years and have spent the last 50 years
0:28studying love you made something called
0:30love lab what is that we followed 3,000
0:32couples it taught us the difference
0:35between what masters of relationship do
0:37and what disasters do what advice would
0:40you give to me then cuddle 96% of non-
0:43cuddlers had an awful sex life anything
0:45else yes the hookup culture is thriving
0:48is that a problem yes why okay so let me
0:51point out something that everybody needs
0:54to hear so and also kissing is very
0:57powerful men who kiss their wives
0:59goodbye women they leave for work live
1:01four years longer than men who don't in
1:04your research you found that during
1:05conflict couples who show four key
1:07behaviors mean that an argument is
1:09doomed yes and they are criticism
1:12defensiveness the third one was the
1:14worst and that was that was the best
1:17predictor of relationship breakup and
1:19the fourth
1:20was John Julie can you role play the
1:24behavior that a couple who are destined
1:26to fail would exhibit oh yes
1:31so it's absolutely crazy to me that so
1:34many of you have decided to watch our
1:36show um and so many of you have decided
1:38to subscribe to our show we now have
1:39five million subscribers on YouTube
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1:45absolutely never could have had we
1:47started the dire of a CO just over three
1:49years ago now and in my wildest
1:51expectations we might have had 100,000
1:53subscribers by now so you can imagine
1:55how shocked I am that so many of you
1:57have chosen to tune into these
1:59conversations every week um and spend
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2:37[Music]
2:42episode John Julie you've both been
2:45studying the subject of love for more
2:47than 50
2:49years you've written books you've done a
2:52lot of primary research you run
2:54something called The Love lab I'm going
2:55to start with you Julie
2:58M what is the mission
3:00that you're on and why love that is the
3:05most wonderful question in the universe
3:07here's why we have a world as we all
3:12know that is full of conflict is full of
3:18uh antipathy is full of violence
3:23domestic
3:24violence all kinds of clashes between
3:28people and we wanted to focus on love
3:33because love is the great healer right
3:36it heals people's hearts it heals
3:39people's Souls it brings people together
3:42it unifies people but nobody has taken
3:47relationships
3:48101 nobody knows how to have productive
3:53relationships that are calm and gentle
3:56and
3:57compassionate and at the beginning of
3:59the research we had no idea of what
4:03successful couples did to really
4:05solidify their relationship and sustain
4:08it so John and his wonderful colleague
4:12Robert levenson did some of that
4:14earliest research that taught us the
4:18difference between what masters of
4:20relationship do and what disasters do so
4:23we could help as many people as possible
4:26and John the same question for you with
4:28all the work that you've done in your
4:29life life what is it that you're seeking
4:31to deliver to the person that consumes
4:35that work what is it you're seeking to
4:37do for them well Bob and I started
4:39studying relationships because we were
4:41so incompetent at it and we we're just
4:45too clueless guys going from one
4:47relationship disaster to another and we
4:50were really curious about whether there
4:52were people out there who could do it
4:54well and we found they were and you know
4:58and then we thought how are they
5:00different from people you know who like
5:03us really went from one disaster to
5:06another and we had no idea we really had
5:09very few hypotheses when we started so
5:12it was just curiosity uh and we weren't
5:15interested in helping anybody at all we
5:17were just curious about finding out what
5:20the differences were and then 26 years
5:23ago Julia and I decided to work together
5:25and she's a clinical psychologist she
5:28wants to help people and and I thought
5:30it was impossible to change
5:33relationships because if you can predict
5:35with such high accuracy that a
5:37relationship is doomed or it works how
5:40can you change it you know it seemed
5:42seemed impossible but Julie's really an
5:45optimist and really cares about people
5:48and so we got together and we thought
5:50well we need a theory if we're going to
5:52help people cuz every relationship is
5:54different and so first we built a theory
5:58and then we tested it so that's how I
6:01got into it really I didn't have a
6:03mission so how did you both come to
6:05study and work together on the subject
6:08of love in
6:09particular well John had already been
6:13studying it right right so uh we met
6:17what almost 38 years ago and what
6:21happened is that I'd be coming home
6:23talking about my clinical cases over
6:25dinner John would come home from the lab
6:29and be sharing the statistics and the
6:32findings he had that were really
6:35thrilling and after a while um he was he
6:40was garnering such incredible
6:43information such great knowledge that
6:45one day we were out in the middle of the
6:47sea
6:48canoeing and I said honey let's take
6:51this stuff out of the Ivory Tower let's
6:55let's form Theory and interventions
6:57based on what these successful couples
6:59are doing doing to really sustain their
7:01love it's such a beautiful thing we see
7:04and he said sure why not and we did and
7:08joh what was that research well you know
7:10Bob and I found that there really were
7:12masters of relationships and we spent a
7:16Dozen Years studying gay and lesbian
7:17couples too same thing there there were
7:20people who knew how to have
7:21relationships and they were very
7:23different from the couples who are
7:25struggling and most of the clinical
7:28books have been written by therapist IST
7:29who never saw the good relationships and
7:32so we had information that was very new
7:35and it was pretty fascinating um but the
7:39question was could we actually turn a
7:42disaster into a master could we prevent
7:45relationship disaster we didn't know so
7:48it was kind of a question you know was
7:51it just correlation or were the findings
7:54causal and so it was really uh curiosity
7:58that continued and how many research
8:00papers have you published now uh couple
8:03hundred I think and how many books
8:06between you have you written Julie I
8:07think we're on 52 maybe how many couples
8:12have you studied John well a latest
8:15study involved over 40,000 couples
8:19looking at their questionnaires and
8:21couples about to start therapy but
8:24following couples in the lab that the
8:27kind of lab that Bob levenson and I
8:29created
8:30uh about 3,000 couples and Bob studied a
8:33group of couples for 20 years the same
8:36group of couples in their 40s or in
8:38their 60s when they started the study
8:41and he actually was able to get funding
8:43for 20 years so the group of couples in
8:46the 40s were now in their 60s and you
8:49can compare them to the couples 20 years
8:51ago who were in their 60s so wound up
8:54being you know a 40-year longitudinal
8:56study has anyone ever studied couples
8:58for that l length of time no not really
9:02it really was a first when people think
9:04about the subject of
9:06love I don't think they necessarily hold
9:08it in such high importance in their life
9:10they think about other thing especially
9:12as it correlates to our health outcomes
9:15so like you know my physical health
9:17outcomes are they right in
9:19deprioritizing love as a path to having
9:22good physical health or does our love
9:24and relationships correlate to our our
9:27physical health our chance of disease
9:29these kinds of things there's a new
9:31field that started kind of when I
9:33started doing my research and it's
9:35called social epidemiology a guy named
9:38Leonard Sim started at Berkeley with his
9:40student Lisa burkeman and they did this
9:44uh study called the Alam County study
9:46where they studied 9,000 people and S
9:50was interested in diet he was interested
9:52in cholesterol and he found that Chinese
9:56American immigrants just lived a lot
9:59longer and were a lot healthier than
10:00Americans were even Chinese American
10:03immigrants so he was kind of curious
10:05about you know what really was the
10:07difference was it the diet was it and he
10:10found it was really Community it was
10:12really that these people moved with
10:14their friends and he found in general
10:17that the quality of people's closest
10:20relationships really predicted longevity
10:23very strong prediction too so it's
10:25become a whole field called social
10:28epidemology and people have studied the
10:30immune system and you know found that
10:33all over the planet people who are
10:35socially isolated who have bad
10:37relationships don't live as long they
10:40get sick and die a lot younger and that
10:43people have great relationships they
10:45live a lot longer and the quality of
10:47their life is better they're a lot
10:49happier and so it seems to make a real
10:52big difference modern social psychology
10:55has been finding the same thing with
10:57people's relationship to
10:59strangers that that affects health so if
11:02you reach out to strangers and in in the
11:05morning if you're commuting having a
11:07conversation with the commuter next to
11:09you then you're open to learning about
11:11their lives that also affects your
11:14Health and
11:15Longevity so we're really a very social
11:18species it's interesting because we
11:20spend a lot of time you know going to
11:21the gym or thinking about our diet or
11:24something but what you were saying and I
11:26think what a lot of your work has
11:27uncovered is that we should be investing
11:28in the same way in relationships in a
11:31really intentional way and especially
11:32when we consider the nature of the world
11:34now where we're getting lonier and more
11:35detached than ever before no one taught
11:38me at any point in my life to think of
11:41my relationships like the gym yeah right
11:45what's your take on that Julie well uh
11:48being a gym buff
11:51myself I love going to the gym but um
11:55one thing that I'm really remembering is
11:57that uh people people whose parents
12:00divorced typically they live four years
12:05less on average than people who grew up
12:09with an intact family people who grew up
12:14with divorce and then ended up divorcing
12:16them themselves their own relationships
12:19divorcing lived eight years less so you
12:24can see how important love is and we're
12:28beginning to understand all of this by
12:31looking at things like
12:34oxytocin
12:35serotonin versus things like adrenaline
12:38and cortisol which are stress
12:42hormones that will flood the body and
12:46stress the body when we're in a bad
12:50relationship you made something called
12:52The Love
12:53lab very curious name place I think I'd
12:56like to go um what is the love lab
12:59well it got named that by the BBC when
13:01they did a a show on our newlywed study
13:05but it was it was basically an apartment
13:08like setting and couple spent 24 hours
13:11there and the cameras were rolling the
13:14whole time they were awake and and like
13:16Bob and I did we synchronized
13:18physiological data to the video time
13:21code so we could you know see what was
13:24what they were doing what they were
13:25saying to one another and at the same
13:27time be able to look at their heart
13:29rates and their blood velocity and
13:31things like that and and we measured
13:33other physiological things and immune
13:36variables as well so that was basically
13:39the lab and we followed couples a couple
13:42of months after the wedding many of them
13:44uh as they got pregnant and had babies I
13:47learned how to study parent infant
13:49interaction from some of my friends who
13:51were experts in that field and we
13:54followed the children as they got older
13:56so that was kind of the lab it was just
13:58to see whether uh there was any
14:01predictability in relationships if we
14:04weren't telling people what to talk
14:06about just watching them as they might
14:08normally go about a typical day so let
14:11me get this straight you you have these
14:12people come to this sort of normal
14:14setting kind of like an apartment but
14:16it's really a laboratory where they're
14:17being studied for their physiological
14:20biomarkers of I don't know heart rate
14:22things like that you just watch them
14:24well they're being videotaped right and
14:28that video tape then afterwards is
14:32analyzed hundredth of a second by
14:34hundredth of a second corresponding also
14:38to their physiological
14:40measures and we're analyzing all of that
14:44tape in terms of the content of what
14:47they're saying what their body movements
14:50are what their facial expressions are
14:53what emotions are they expressing how
14:55are they expressing those emotions if
14:58any are they responding to each other's
15:01bids for connection we looked at so much
15:06data and it was a gold mine it taught us
15:10so much not only about the best way for
15:15couples to manage conflict but even more
15:18important how do couples create a deeper
15:21friendship with one another and by then
15:25we'd already known that friendship in a
15:28relation ship also helps create more
15:31passion and good sex in a longlasting
15:35relationship so there was so much for us
15:38to learn it was exciting going into that
15:41study at the love lab what were the sort
15:44of
15:45big things that you discovered
15:47afterwards that are misconceptions about
15:50relationships so you know I can think of
15:53a couple off the top of my head but
15:54you'll know them better what are the big
15:56misconceptions that you discovered from
15:58that start with you Julie a lot of
16:00people think that sustaining a good
16:03relationship takes huge effort you know
16:07takes really figuring out things like
16:11active listening where if you say to me
16:13Stephen you know I am really angry
16:17because you keep leaving the lid off the
16:19toothpaste what's the matter with you
16:22and how do I respond to that well we
16:27would learn that criticism for example
16:31you always you never those are
16:33criticisms didn't work to manage
16:36conflict on the other hand what we also
16:39saw is that when somebody made a little
16:43tiny bid for connection for example
16:46there was a big window in this apartment
16:49looking out the window and saying oh my
16:51God there's a beautiful bird in the tree
16:54what does your partner do this proved to
16:58be incred ibly important does your
17:01partner either turn against you by
17:04saying stop interrupting me I'm trying
17:06to read or ignore you completely which
17:12is silence not paying attention or look
17:16out the window too and say huh
17:19cool that's all it took to create a
17:24better friendship for a couple and we
17:27found that the couples who were
17:29successful in the Long Haul turn towards
17:32each other's little bits for connection
17:3585% of the time the couples who ended up
17:39splitting up unhappy divorced
17:4333% of the time so listen to that
17:47difference just between saying uhhuh and
17:51saying nothing let's start there then I
17:54am I think I am guilty of being very
17:59very bad at responding positively to
18:02bids for connection from my partner this
18:03is actually one of the central issues
18:04that we've struggled with over the last
18:06couple of months is my partner will come
18:08home like usually I'm coming home she's
18:10already home just before me and I'm
18:12still I've still got my work brain on
18:14I'm thinking about work I rush into the
18:15living room sometimes I'll like say
18:17hello to her then I'll go on my laptop
18:19and I start working and she comes over
18:21and says something to me and because I'm
18:22focused on my work I either acknowledge
18:26her but without turning my head or
18:29sometimes I'll just give one sec babee
18:31I'm busy or say something words to that
18:33effect right it's clearly causing a
18:35problem I'm I'm guilty of the same
18:38thing I was working on a on a book uh
18:41and Julie said you know I go into the
18:44living room and sit down and you don't
18:46even look up and I sit there for a while
18:48and then I get up and leave and you
18:50haven't even noticed that I was there so
18:53I was guilty of it too turning away and
18:56we worked on it we did work on it the
18:58other thing too though with John and
19:01I've I've learned to accept this right
19:04over time is that John grew up in a
19:07little teeny weeny apartment as a
19:10refugee in New York City and it was loud
19:15and noisy and there were a lot of people
19:17all around so he had to develop this
19:20incredible sense of concentration and so
19:24when I first met you it was so funny
19:26John um I would be across the kitchen
19:30counter from John he would be reading a
19:34book he wouldn't even be on his computer
19:36be reading a book and I would say
19:38John uh
19:41John hey John and I would wave my hand
19:46and finally he would say oh yeah I
19:49really didn't hear it he didn't hear it
19:52I mean literally and I had
19:54to understand that with that kind of
19:57concentration he really didn't hear me
20:00how did it make you feel how did it make
20:02me feel at first it made me feel
20:06invisible
20:08unimportant um
20:10unloved rejected alone you know it made
20:14me feel all kinds of stuff until I
20:16understood wait a minute there's
20:18something in his
20:20brain that's very different than my
20:23brain because I'm always you know I have
20:26no skin I'm like super aware of
20:28everything around me okay so John give
20:30me some advice then from your studies in
20:33the love lab if my partner makes a bid
20:35for connection yeah what are the ways
20:38that people typically respond and how
20:39should I respond when you looked at the
20:42couples that were most successful over
20:43the long term um how do they respond how
20:46should I respond give me some advice
20:48yeah I think I I think the really great
20:51relationships have this motto that when
20:54their partner is upset you just stop
20:57everything you're doing and listen and I
21:00I keep a notebook in my back pocket just
21:02for that purpose so if Julie says we
21:05need to talk I whip out my notebook my
21:09pen and I say okay I'm taking notes so
21:12I'm ready to listen to her and you know
21:15it's true that sometimes I'm oblivious
21:17to what's going on around me but you
21:20know I I become much more aware so when
21:23she comes into the living room now I I
21:26stop what I'm doing close the computer
21:28and say how you doing what's on your
21:31mind my my issue is with that is I work
21:35in the living room sometimes so what's
21:37the balance between me being able to
21:39work in the living room or work in like
21:41a public home space without being
21:43interrupted while also not rejecting my
21:46partner accidentally or you know lowkey
21:48intentionally I I think the solution is
21:50to create a ritual around connection you
21:53know so if she if she really needs to
21:56talk to you she can you know give you a
21:59signal that it's important for her to
22:01connect with you and then it's not
22:03always happening you know it's just
22:05happening when it's important and
22:07Julie's like that too so she'll you know
22:10she'll come in and she won't sit there
22:12and and just wait for me to respond
22:14she'll actually go we need to talk and
22:17then I know I get my notebook out but
22:19let me point out something though honey
22:21you're you're talking only about you
22:23know if I'm upset about something so I
22:27have to work in the living room also of
22:29our house um or John may be working in
22:33the living room and if he's working on
22:37something and I want his
22:39attention I may ask him can I have your
22:43attention for a moment so I need to say
22:47what I need to him and if it's something
22:52that's trivial and he says just a minute
22:54you know I'm working on an email or
22:56whatever okay that's fine you know our
22:59timing is not going to be identical he's
23:02not going to be available necessarily
23:05all the time I want to talk to him I
23:07won't be either right and so we try to
23:13inquire of one another is this a good
23:16time for us to talk and there's
23:18sometimes when it's not a good time for
23:19you to talk John of course right of
23:22course that's where I think I've
23:23struggled because sometimes I feel like
23:25this is not a good time to talk and I
23:27express that and I think maybe the way
23:28that I'm expressing it isn't soft enough
23:31maybe I'm you know let me give you one
23:34of my favorite things to say okay which
23:37is honey I would really love to listen
23:40to you right now but I really am feeling
23:43pressured to finish this so can you just
23:47wait however amount of time you know 30
23:50minutes or an hour and then I'll be able
23:53to give you my full
23:55attention see that I want to listen to
23:59you that's the key phrase that tells
24:03your partner I value you I love you but
24:09there's pressure on me right now too so
24:13please be understanding and I'll be
24:15there for you as soon as I can be you
24:17know in the in the love lab when you saw
24:19these couples who were missing bids for
24:22connection so for the example you gave
24:24Julie of someone looking out the window
24:26and saying babe come and look at this
24:27and then the other person either ignores
24:29it or kind of dismisses it was that
24:31individual who dismissed it or ignored
24:32it John were they doing that
24:35intentionally did they was it a buildup
24:37of something that's caused them to sort
24:39of passively reject the person or was it
24:41they were just oblivious yeah it's
24:43really hard to know I mean the one thing
24:46I can tell you was the person who got
24:48turned away from kind of crumples a
24:51little bit so regardless of the reason
24:54for the turning away if it's really
24:57habitual
24:58that person making a bid really gets
25:01hurt by the turning away
25:04and and that I think leads people to
25:07stop
25:08bidding you know to think you know
25:11what's the point and then what happens
25:13well then they they just create this
25:15emotional distance yeah uh and put up
25:18walls and then what happens and then
25:21what happens is that they become lonely
25:24and then what happens quite often an
25:26fair oh they cheat or okay yeah
25:29eventually and it all starts with
25:32missing a bid for connection potentially
25:33and that becoming a habit many of them
25:36yeah yeah you know I I like to use the
25:38metaphor of a sea anemon you know what
25:42that's like right it's a little sea
25:44creature in a tile pool that that has
25:46all these little fingers all these
25:48little fingers so it may be relaxing
25:51those fingers and opening up and
25:54revealing its
25:56underbelly but when somebody refuses a
26:01bid for connection it's as if that
26:03little C anomy has been poked right in
26:07the stomach and so all the fingers close
26:10up and shut down and lock down and it
26:14takes a much longer time for that anemon
26:19to unfold its fingers again and be open
26:23yeah it's not safe mhm did you ever find
26:26and I think this is something that I've
26:27talked about before on my relationship
26:29that sometimes when I miss a bid for
26:31connection it increases the amounts of
26:33bids for connection because I think I'm
26:37guessing that I'm a bit of an avoidant
26:40type based on my history in my childhood
26:42she's a little bit more of an anxious
26:43type so it seems to be the case that if
26:45I say not now babe I'm working then the
26:48amount of bids increase and they they
26:50come they they start to become in my
26:53opinion and I could be well wrong here
26:54they they're not they're not actually
26:58there's not actually something out the
26:59window now it becomes more about trying
27:02to confirm whether I it's a test right
27:04it's a test yeah that's it feels like a
27:06test yeah right right but also what it
27:10is when especially when there isn't
27:12something outside the window
27:16is very pure and simple I need to
27:20connect with you I need to feel that
27:24connection sure I can imagine it I can
27:26remember it from you know 3 hours ago
27:30but right now I'm feeling that kind of
27:33little stirring inside of me that need
27:36and I want to connect with you I just
27:38need that
27:39connection so she's attempting to create
27:43that what is this
27:45attune framework John
27:49attune awareness turning toward
27:51tolerance understanding n defensive
27:52empathetic what is this framework yeah
27:54Attunement is really uh you know it's
27:57like two Musical instruments that really
27:59are tuned to one another and when one
28:02plays the other resonates so uh creating
28:06rituals of connection you know like we
28:09have a ritual every morning you know
28:10where you know I'll say I'll ask Julie
28:13you know what's on your play today what
28:15you know what's your day look like and
28:17she'll say what what does your day look
28:18like so we kind of check in with with
28:20each other and then at dinner we have
28:22another ritual connection and you know
28:25how was your day you know what what
28:26happened how did that how did that
28:29session go and we kind of keep in touch
28:31with each other with these structured
28:34ways of attuning and in that way you
28:38don't lose touch you don't make
28:40assumptions you know we ask each other
28:42questions like what can I do this week
28:44to make you feel loved and you know when
28:47you have that kind of ritual then you
28:50know you know you're connecting and um
28:54and you're like those two instruments
28:56that are tuned to each other may I add a
28:58little to that um empathy is super super
29:03important and I I honestly believe that
29:06empathy is probably the most powerful
29:10tool we have to really create connection
29:13with one another so if our partner is
29:17saying to us I'm really upset right now
29:21I'm really angry that I'm doing all the
29:26housework can you attune to that can you
29:30say first of all tell me more what what
29:34is making that a burden for you so
29:36you're pulling information out and then
29:40your partner might be saying well you
29:42know it's like the second shift for me
29:44I'm at work all day and then I have to
29:46come home and clean the house Etc so I
29:49want to share that with you okay can you
29:53empathize with her can you say ah no
29:56wonder you're probably pretty tired when
29:58you come home right so you really do
30:01need my support is that what you're
30:03trying to tell me mhm that's the
30:06Attunement you see I was going to say
30:08it's quite difficult isn't it because it
30:09often sounds like blame here's the
30:12difference there's a big difference and
30:15this is what we saw in the lab also it
30:18is blame when there's a lot of you in
30:23what your partner is saying for example
30:26you never clean up the kitchen you are
30:30too lazy to do any housework at the end
30:33of the day what about me you know Etc so
30:37with that kind of blaming and criticism
30:41nobody nobody is going to feel like oh
30:44you're absolutely right you're really
30:47mad at me because I've been a schmuck
30:49and I haven't been helping you with the
30:51housework and that's what you're telling
30:53me no what people have to do when
30:57they're unhappy about something is
30:59describe
31:01themselves I'm
31:03upset that what's the situation describe
31:07the situation I'm upset that the kitchen
31:10is a mess okay that the kitchen is a
31:14mess is a situation it's not saying
31:16you're a bad person you see and then
31:20step three they need to say what their
31:23positive need is which means how can
31:27your partner Shine for you don't tell
31:30them what they they're not doing right
31:33or what you resent flip that on its head
31:37and say I would love it if you would
31:40help me tonight with the dishes my
31:43partner did that yesterday actually she
31:45um and I I noticed that she did it so
31:48basically she's in Costa Rica right now
31:49doing a retreat and she sent me a text
31:51saying babe I love it when you tell me
31:54how the podcast went after you finished
31:56recording it now there's several ways
31:59that someone could have said that she
32:01could have said I hate it when you don't
32:03tell me for example that's right but she
32:06said I love it when you tell me what
32:07she's telling me is to do it more and it
32:10I felt it to be really motivating that
32:13I'll do it more so I started doing it
32:14more I started telling her sending her
32:15voice notes after the podcast but I've
32:17also seen it in relationships where it's
32:18fra framed the it's trying to get the
32:19same outcome but it's framed in the
32:21opposite way it's negative it's I
32:23suddenly feel like I'm on the back foot
32:25and I've done something wrong and I'm a
32:26child being told off by my mother or
32:27something right exactly and what is your
32:30first response to that defensiveness uh
32:33uh deny it throw it back on them exactly
32:38yep and that's one of the predictors you
32:41know a smaller predictor but still a
32:43predictor of relationship
32:46unhappiness why
32:47does typical couple's therapy fail
32:51John in your opinion well you know it's
32:55not failing very much anymore there are
32:57some very good approaches now some
32:59behavioral approaches that are working
33:01pretty well and emotionally focused
33:03therapy is working much better so things
33:06have improved um but I think typically
33:10the reason that it fails is that the
33:12therapist doesn't really have the proper
33:15tools for either assessing a
33:18relationship and most therapists don't
33:20do any assessment when a couple comes in
33:22they don't look for you know what are
33:25the strengths in this relationship and
33:27what do I not need to work on and what
33:29are the challenges that I really need to
33:31work on and not only don't they
33:34typically assess but once once they
33:36start working with a couple they don't
33:38really have the tools as I heard with
33:40therapy it's all about listening you
33:43know and the stat I'm I'm citing here is
33:45that um traditional couples therapy only
33:47had a 35 to 50% success rate right and
33:50you typically think of therapy like you
33:52go there and your job is just to listen
33:54to your partner as they tell you what's
33:56wrong yeah why doesn't that work because
33:59they're telling you typically what's
34:01wrong with you and the therapist isn't
34:04stopping them isn't saying that's
34:08criticism that's not going to work that
34:11is going to sabotage you getting
34:13listened to so try this instead try
34:17telling your partner what you feel and
34:19what you need instead of describing your
34:22partner and what's wrong with him I
34:24actually saw at a conference I'm not
34:26making this up somebody was training
34:28therapists and this this therapist who
34:31was doing the training played a
34:33videotape in which a husband said to his
34:36wife you know Sheila you're such a
34:40you only think about yourself and the
34:42therapist said Sheila can you summarize
34:46and reflect back what Harry just said
34:49and empathize with
34:51him I
34:53thought God you know what an idiot I
34:56mean nobody can
34:58empathize with insult and put Downs you
35:02know why isn't she constraining the way
35:04Harry's talking to Sheila not just
35:07Sheila listening so I think a lot of
35:09times therapists really don't know how
35:11to use a tool they don't know what
35:14really is appropriate what a good
35:16relationship looks like what a good
35:18relationship looks like I'm really Keen
35:20to understand the principles of what
35:21successful couples do from your research
35:24you've highlighted a few of those things
35:25I mean you've got the seven principles
35:27of success marriage what are some of the
35:29most important of those principles first
35:32of all um we call the first principle
35:36building love Maps you need to keep
35:39asking your partner open-ended questions
35:42to know who they are open-ended
35:45questions are questions like
35:48so what characteristic would you like to
35:52pass down from your family to our child
35:56or what would be your ideal way of
36:00celebrating Ramadan or Christmas or
36:03whatever holiday so you're asking your
36:06partner questions with answers that have
36:09paragraphs not a one-word answer in
36:12order to keep in touch with who your
36:16partner is what their values are what
36:20their priorities are what their needs
36:22are what their feelings are because
36:25those change over time as you're
36:28together turning toward we talked about
36:31that was super important expressing
36:34fondness and admiration is very
36:37important so you can feel love and if
36:42you don't tell your partner you love
36:45them or express it with touch which is
36:47incredibly
36:48important then your partner may not be
36:51all that sure that you still do love
36:54them 5 years down the road of course
36:57managing conflict is incredibly
36:59important and that's where we've
37:01probably done our most significant work
37:05but in addition to that it's honoring
37:08each other's
37:09dreams dreams meaning what are your
37:12hopes and aspirations for the future
37:14they're not going to be compatible
37:16they're not necessarily going to be
37:18identical it doesn't matter can you
37:22support your partner in realizing their
37:26own dream and fulfilling that and
37:29finally creating shared meaning which
37:33means every one of us is a philosopher
37:37we have our own ideas about what our
37:40purpose in life is well do you tell your
37:44partner what that is for you and you
37:47hear that from your partner that's the
37:50sharing that's
37:51needed and the weightbearing walls and
37:55trust and commitment of course so trust
37:59builds over time and trust is
38:03essentially answering the question will
38:05you be there for me in all kinds of
38:08different situations will you be there
38:11for me when I'm sick when I'm depressed
38:14when I want to celebrate a success when
38:17I'm frustrated will you be there for me
38:20and nobody will be perfectly but the
38:22more the better so that's
38:25trust and commit of course is are you
38:31letting your partner know that this
38:34relationship is your journey for life
38:37you are here for life not for you know
38:42the next three weeks and then you'll
38:43think about it again why is
38:48having expressed dreams so important
38:52because I often think that about sort of
38:54my relationship I think our dreams are
38:56not the same they're very different and
38:58sometimes I wonder and I've wondered and
39:00I think we've both wondered in my
39:02relationship whether that is a big big
39:04issue if it matters but why is it so
39:07important to express your dreams to your
39:08partner and do do they have to be
39:10aligned okay number one they don't have
39:12to be aligned that's one of the big
39:15myths of all time you have to be
39:17compatible you have to have the same
39:19dreams the same passions the same
39:21interest wrong wrong wrong that's not
39:25true in fact often times were attracted
39:27to people who were different from us
39:30what happens when the dreams are in
39:31Conflict though so if one partner's
39:33dreams is to live in Australia and the
39:34other partner's dream is to live on on
39:36America you know there are certain
39:39situations where one person's dream is
39:42the other person's Nightmare and they're
39:46they really don't have a compromise
39:49that's possible so the one you described
39:52I had a couple like that where she lived
39:56in Switzerland he lived in Uganda she
39:59had an autistic son and that autistic
40:02son needed desperately a very good
40:06support system to help him cope with the
40:10differences that he lived with every day
40:13so she wanted to stay in Switzerland he
40:16worked for the government in Uganda he
40:19was making a contribution there he did
40:22not want to move to Switzerland and she
40:25knew she wouldn't get the support for
40:27herself son in Uganda so they had
40:31incompatible totally incompatible dreams
40:34but there was no compromise here so they
40:38ended up breaking up but they knew why
40:42they were breaking up and it was for
40:44good reason are some problems solvable
40:47then and some problems not solvable yeah
40:50it turns out 69% of all problems are not
40:53solvable and just you know we're not
40:56attracted to people who are like us and
41:00then once we get together we find those
41:03differences although initially very
41:05Tractive pretty annoying you know so
41:08it's really great that he's so
41:09spontaneous but then why can't he ever
41:12stick to a
41:14plan you know and that becomes a source
41:16of irritation and unless people can
41:19really be enriched by those differences
41:22and learn to accept the differences
41:24they're going to be in a lot of trouble
41:25so when we looked at over time at what
41:28people fought about it was 69% of the
41:31time it was the same issues and what you
41:34you call these Perpetual problems
41:35Perpetual problems yeah and once you
41:38pick somebody to have a relationship
41:39with you've automatically inherited the
41:42problems you'll have for the next 50
41:43years these are problems you can't solve
41:46really right but you can adapt to them
41:49and laugh about them and compromise
41:51around the edges okay so what's an
41:54example of a Perpetual problem in your
41:55relationship oh my my God okay so um
42:01John first of all he's wearing you know
42:04a a Jewish yam he thinks this is a Halo
42:07right so you know he's
42:10I he's always innocent okay so he calls
42:14me obsessively compulsively neurotically
42:18tidy and he is charmingly sloppy okay so
42:23we have a huge
42:25difference and so
42:27um here's how we've coped with it
42:29because environment is not it's just not
42:32important for him and for me it's super
42:36important it will disorganize my mind if
42:39my environment is disorganized so when
42:43things start to get to me there's too
42:44much mess too many papers books I can't
42:47make the bed because I'm trying to lean
42:50over a 4ot tall pile of books and I may
42:54break my neck if I try to make the bed
42:56so it gets to that point and then I'll
42:59say to him honey I really need you to
43:02please clean up the books in the bedroom
43:05he'll say okay then he won't do it then
43:08I'll ask the next week I'll say honey
43:10it's you know I'm I'm really wanting you
43:14to clean this up please he said okay I
43:17will but then he has to I don't know do
43:20something else so it doesn't happen week
43:24three I say to him
43:27okay honey I've said this now twice I'm
43:31starting to get annoyed he'll say oh
43:35okay all right I'll think I I'll figure
43:39out when I can do
43:40it week
43:43four we're counting down I say okay
43:47we've crossed the threshold I'm now
43:49Angry I really need you to clean up the
43:52books now please and I become a pushy
43:56Jewish Broad that's what happens and he
44:00goes
44:02oh and he says okay okay because I'm
44:06bigger than he is and I had two older
44:08brothers and I'm really good at
44:10wrestling and stuff and so I clean it up
44:14he cleans it up really fast it's
44:16pristine it's beautiful I savor it then
44:20it starts over again so how do we is
44:23that the pathway to dealing with
44:24Perpetual problems is you just have to
44:27like accept them that it's going
44:30to so here's the deal with Perpetual
44:33problems we have a method for compromise
44:38we call it the bagel method or maybe the
44:40donut method depending on your culture
44:43okay so in an inner circle you think
44:47about or you write down what can you not
44:50compromise on in terms of your position
44:54your position on this issue what what
44:57can you not it would be like giving up
44:59the bones of your body or that core
45:02dream you have that is so Central to
45:06your identity that you got to hold on to
45:10that then in an Outer Circle you write
45:13down what you're more flexible about and
45:17those are typically when something will
45:20happen who will do it where it will
45:22happen how much will it cost how long
45:24will it last those nitty-gritty Det
45:27details you share what you've written
45:29down in both circles with your partner
45:33and you look at the flexible areas
45:36around each of your positions on the
45:38issue and you try to reach a compromise
45:42regarding those
45:44flexible points of view while still
45:47honoring each other's inner core dream
45:51or core need but you must want to change
45:53that about John right you must want to
45:55change of course I want to change it but
45:58you know what John wouldn't be John if
46:02he was a tidy neat guy and after a time
46:07it's just
46:09adorable it's funny and we have such a
46:13wonderful relationship that it's
46:15hilarious and it's predictable you need
46:18to talk about gridlocked Perpetual
46:20problems that's a whole different story
46:22that's a different story so gridlock is
46:24when you cannot die dialogue about
46:28something because you hold so fast to
46:32your own position on the issue that you
46:35really want to win this battle it's not
46:38a matter of compromise you know you're
46:40right you want to win and the other
46:43person feels the same way then what you
46:47try to talk without really listening to
46:49one another and understanding at a much
46:53deeper level which is part of our work
46:57what really constitutes our partner's
47:00position why they holding that position
47:03so
47:04strongly and with your understanding
47:08comes more compassion if you don't have
47:11that understanding if you're trying to
47:12win you get gridlocked to the point
47:15where every fight escalates to the
47:17ceiling you end up yelling or you shut
47:21down shove it under the rug but you can
47:24feel it as you walk around the living
47:26room this this is I mean this is one of
47:27the big problems in relationships John
47:29is that we often feel like our partner
47:30is trying to change Us in ways that we
47:32don't want to be changed that's right
47:33and I often I've been in a relationship
47:35before past relationship where my
47:39partner would say things that were an
47:41attempt to change me but in doing so she
47:46was actually telling me that she didn't
47:47think I was good enough right oh you see
47:50what I'm saying sure well that's that's
47:52the nature of gridlock conflict yeah and
47:55and part of what what we've done is
47:58invent six
47:59questions that 87% of the time work to
48:02get people out of gridlock where they
48:05they're asking these questions about
48:07what does this feel like what does this
48:10conversation feel like to you what is it
48:13that you think I'm trying to change
48:14about you and that I don't think is good
48:17enough tell me how that feels and what's
48:21your ideal dream of how we should talk
48:23about things you know and where does
48:26that come from and you know where is it
48:28that you feel unaccepted by me so if you
48:30can have that conversation a lot of
48:33times you develop the sense of
48:36understanding and then you can
48:37compromise about the gridlock this year
48:39one of the recurring things I've had in
48:40relationships is I'm very involved with
48:43technology in my work so sometimes it's
48:46felt in relationships that I've had that
48:48the person is trying to take my work
48:50away from me so because they're always
48:53complaining that I'm on my phone or I'm
48:55on my laptop or whatever thinking like
48:58they they're trying to change me in a
49:00way that I'm unwilling to change I'm not
49:02I I love my work I want to I want that
49:04to be a big part of my life right how
49:06how do I go about solving for that so
49:09and that person wants you to do away
49:12with the technology some of the time
49:14right that's how it feels yeah that's
49:16how it feels okay so you need to have a
49:19conversation where each of you
49:23interviews the other person and asks
49:26asks six questions let me go through
49:29those just really quickly what are your
49:32beliefs values and ethics that are part
49:35of your position on this issue you know
49:37wanting to stay with the technology do
49:39you have some background or childhood
49:42history that relates to your
49:44position why is this so important to you
49:48what do you feel about your position
49:51here what is your ideal dream here what
49:54do you really wish for if the world
49:56could be just like you wanted it
49:58regarding this issue what would it look
50:00like and is there some life purpose or
50:03goal in this for you that is really
50:07important as you answer those questions
50:10Stephen she's gaining an inside look
50:13into what's deepest and most important
50:17to you regarding this issue then then
50:21you ask her the same questions exactly
50:25the same ones to understand where she's
50:28coming from right and what that creates
50:34is much more understanding and
50:37compassion for one another about why
50:40each position is so important to that
50:43particular
50:44partner then you try to work on
50:48compromise like I
50:50described
50:51interesting but those questions are
50:54fundamental if you just just argue on
50:57the surface you're not going to get
51:00anywhere you're going to stay gridlocked
51:02I love my work I want to do my work
51:04period Well does she know why your work
51:07is so important to you what life purpose
51:11that is serving for you does she know
51:14that way down at the core of who you are
51:18in your research you discovered
51:19something which has become pretty iconic
51:21when we talk about relationships and
51:23conflict which is this idea of the Four
51:25Horsemen um you found that during
51:27conflict couples who show four key
51:29behaviors mean that an argument is
51:31doomed and it's the worst way of arguing
51:34I like really nothing can be gained
51:36beyond that point John what are the four
51:38horsemen and how was this discovered
51:41yeah it you know Bob levenson and I uh
51:46first looked at just the ratio of
51:48positivity to negativity and a conflict
51:50discussion and the first thing we
51:53discovered was that among the Masters
51:56that ra IO was 5 to1 or higher and among
51:59the disaster couples it was 8 average 8
52:02to1 what does that mean sorry 5 to1 so
52:05if you take the number of seconds that
52:06they're show displaying interest
52:09curiosity affection humor uh shared
52:13humor validation listening to One
52:16Another uh you know saying things like
52:19no tell me more oh wow oh good point you
52:22know things like that and you divide
52:25that by the number of seconds that
52:26they're angry upset you know
52:28disappointed hurt critical defensive
52:32belligerent you know all these negative
52:34ways these hostile ways of interacting
52:37that ratio of positivity to negativity
52:39was 5 to one or higher among
52:42relationships that work well during
52:44conflict during the conflict yeah so but
52:47the second thing we wanted to know is
52:49well are all negatives equally corrosive
52:52you know and the ones that were the most
52:54corrosive really involved that person
52:57starting off and saying you know as far
52:59as I can tell I'm pretty much fine but
53:02you're defective here's what's wrong
53:04with you and they started with this
53:06criticism that they thought was
53:08constructive criticism you know and they
53:10hoped their partner would respond by
53:11saying you know God you're so insightful
53:14you know tell me more about how I'm
53:17failing but instead what they got was
53:19defensiveness Counterattack or the
53:22innocent victim posture and that was
53:25that was the second Horsemen of the
53:27Apocalypse the third one was contempt
53:30and that was the worst that was the best
53:32predictor of relationship breakup of all
53:35that criticism from a place of
53:38superiority I'm better than you you know
53:41I you know I I correct your grammar even
53:44when you're angry or you know I think
53:46I'm more punctual and that's really
53:47important or I'm tidier than you are or
53:51I'm better informed than you are that
53:53sort of snobbery that you know looking
53:57down on their partner may I add
53:59something go ahead with contempt also
54:02you've got things like name calling you
54:04know calling people bad
54:06names sarcasm
54:09mockery sarcasm can have a real Cutting
54:12Edge it can be funny but then it crosses
54:15over into hurt and the fourth Horseman
54:18is stonewalling which was particularly a
54:21guy thing to do 85% of the time guys
54:23with Stonewall they just shut down and
54:26they don't give these cues to the
54:29speaker that they're listening they're
54:30not nodding their heads or moving their
54:33facial muscles or uttering these
54:35vocalizations like oh you know not doing
54:38that they're just kind of shut down and
54:41look away and you know when we found
54:44those people's physiology is really
54:47elevated so it wasn't about whether
54:49couples were arguing or not because we
54:50typically think a relationship is doomed
54:52if the couple are like screaming at each
54:54other again it depends on your
54:55definition
54:57okay so screaming at each other is one
55:01form of
55:02argument and there are certain couples
55:05that are volatile where both partners
55:08are volatile they're very passionate
55:10they're very intense they may raise
55:13their
55:13voices but depending on what's coming
55:16out of their mouths is it criticism is
55:19it contempt is it defensiveness if it's
55:23any of those it's not going to work but
55:25you can also scream I'm so Furious about
55:30this still describing yourself that's
55:33not going to be a bad thing why is it
55:36men you said talked about stonewalling
55:38there where you kind of shut down and
55:39you you kind of go within yourself and
55:41ignore why is it that men do that more
55:43than women well what I think is that we
55:46men are much more easily physiologically
55:50aroused and the differences are that we
55:53secrete phasal oppression and women
55:56secrete oxytocin much more than
55:59vasopressin and so for us we get once we
56:03get physiologically aroused it takes us
56:05a long time to calm down and most of
56:09what we feel when we get physiologically
56:11aroused is anger and aggression and we
56:14want to shut our partner down we're much
56:16more aggressive than women are and so we
56:20shut ourselves down you know and when
56:23you look at the dialogue that people
56:25have in their minds when they're
56:27stonewalling it's usually stuff like
56:29just shut up and don't say anything you
56:32know I you know you always make it worse
56:35when you say something so just be quiet
56:38endure this and that's kind of a male
56:41response do men have more of a
56:42physiological response to arguments are
56:45you like the sweating palms and the
56:46blood pressure you know through
56:49Evolution women have been responsible
56:52for nurturing an infant in order to do
56:55that you have to have a milk letdown
56:59response right through Evolution so
57:04here's what I mean let's say you know
57:06we're back 3,000 years right there's no
57:09formula in a can so women are
57:12breastfeeding their infants in order for
57:15that breast milk to come down and in in
57:18order to be released to the infant
57:22oxytocin is really important oxytocin
57:26calms you down it relaxes you if you're
57:30very tense and uptight milk isn't going
57:33to come down at all so women have the
57:40physiology in which to relax more easily
57:44men on the other hand through Evolution
57:47have been the protectors right so if
57:50there's a sabertooth tiger attacking a
57:53group of people who's going to jump up
57:56and defend against that tiger well the
57:59men are
58:01typically so men's bodies are really
58:05built to stay vigilant and hypervigilant
58:10especially for attack well that attack
58:13doesn't have to be physical it can also
58:15be mental emotional verbal and men will
58:20have the same response we're talking
58:22about flooding here aren't we the
58:23concept talking about flooding yeah what
58:26flooding John so flooding is really
58:29going into fight or flight it's it's
58:32when we start secreting cortisol and
58:34adrenaline are two major stress hormones
58:37and when we feel attacked when we feel
58:40unsafe you know we start secreting these
58:42stress hormones and there are
58:46implications psychological implications
58:49of being physiologically flooded you
58:51can't take in new information you rely
58:54on overlearned habits it's like
58:56aggression or flight you know you you
59:00can't listen very well you actually your
59:02hearing is compromised your peripheral
59:04vision is compromised you focus only on
59:08the cues you need to survive the moment
59:11and so it's you you don't wind up being
59:14a very creative Problem Solver or a good
59:17listener when you're flooded if men
59:19flood more than women does this go to
59:21explain why men tend to avoid arguments
59:24more than women cuz I think that's a
59:26stereotype at least that men are much
59:29more avoidant in arguments I think I
59:30mean it's a stereotype that holds true
59:32to me I've never been sure whether it's
59:33because we're not good at expressing our
59:35emotions or if there's a physiological
59:38reaction in me that's making me go 80%
59:41of the time women are the ones bringing
59:43up issues in a relationship now when
59:46guys bring up the issues sometimes the
59:48women get flooded too so it's not that
59:50women don't get flooded you know yeah
59:53they're a little better at self soothing
59:55than we are are but you know during
59:58during an argument if a woman gets
59:59flooded she really can't listen also and
1:00:03she repeats herself as well gets more
1:00:06strident you know if I'm flooded then
1:00:10typical advice tells me John it says
1:00:13never fall asleep if you and your
1:00:14partner have been arguing about
1:00:15something yeah what is the best I get
1:00:17flooded sometimes what is the best way
1:00:19for me to deal with that if it's late at
1:00:22night you should go to
1:00:23sleep go to sleep angry I mean St Paul
1:00:26was the one who started that and he
1:00:28wasn't married you know so it's you know
1:00:31it sounds like great advice but if it's
1:00:33going to keep you up and you know you're
1:00:35going to get a terrible night's sleep
1:00:38you know shake hands and go to bed give
1:00:42each other a quick kiss and go to bed
1:00:44angry what did he start St Paul what did
1:00:47St Paul start never go to bed wrathful I
1:00:51think is what his advice was for couples
1:00:55and that's wrong
1:00:56yeah okay so if I if I'm in the middle
1:00:59of an argument and I feel like I'm a
1:01:00little bit flooded my maybe my Palms are
1:01:02a little bit sweaty I should take a time
1:01:04out is what you're saying Julie yeah
1:01:06let's talk about that um so if you're
1:01:09feeling flooded um you really need to
1:01:14take a break but there's specific steps
1:01:17to do that
1:01:19one uh if you're flooded you say I need
1:01:22to take a break you don't say you do I
1:01:25need to take a break and say when you'll
1:01:28come back to continue the
1:01:30conversation if you do that then your
1:01:33partner is not going to feel abandoned
1:01:35and rejected you go apart for maybe 30
1:01:39minutes an hour however long maximum 24
1:01:44hours and you don't think about the
1:01:46fight don't plan your
1:01:49rebuttal because that'll keep you
1:01:51flooded as long as you keep thinking
1:01:53about the fight so do something s
1:01:56soothing like reading a book reading a
1:01:59magazine working out maybe going for a
1:02:02run get on your computer get on your
1:02:04computer do your email don't watch
1:02:07murder mysteries that's not a good thing
1:02:09to do so come back at the designated
1:02:13time when hopefully your body is a lot
1:02:16calmer and continue the
1:02:19conversation but you know a
1:02:22generally consistent result is that
1:02:25women tend to be more Unhappily Married
1:02:28than
1:02:28men
1:02:30guys often think everything's fine oh my
1:02:34God so
1:02:36true I actually had this conversation
1:02:38with a former partner where I said and I
1:02:40shouldn't have said it but I just going
1:02:41to be honest I said to her in our
1:02:45relationship I think if you never raised
1:02:46an issue I think there'd never be an
1:02:48issue because I just felt like
1:02:49everything was always fine and every
1:02:51week she was coming to me with a problem
1:02:55and had she not come to me with that
1:02:56problem I think and I might be bsing
1:02:59myself here I think the relationship
1:03:01would have just been great right that's
1:03:02how it felt and and you know women have
1:03:05have a lot more depression than men do
1:03:07as well you know so I I think in a lot
1:03:11of ways the world is harder for women
1:03:14the world's a more dangerous place for
1:03:16women for example the probability that a
1:03:19woman will be physically or sexually
1:03:21assaulted in her lifetime is 40% it's 9%
1:03:25from men in the United States I think
1:03:27it's harder to be a woman than it is to
1:03:30be a man I've sometimes rebutted myself
1:03:32Julie when I talk when I say what I just
1:03:33said about our relationship would be
1:03:35fine if she never brought issues up
1:03:39because when I zoom out and I go the
1:03:41issues she's brought up have they made
1:03:43our relationship better and had she not
1:03:45brought them up would we have drifted
1:03:48and I say probably M see what I'm saying
1:03:50like I feel like my partner has always
1:03:53played a role in keeping our
1:03:54relationship close the caretaker yeah
1:03:57yes is that a real thing yeah that
1:04:00totally is a real thing what we saw in
1:04:02the research is that 80% of the time
1:04:05women bring up the problems in a
1:04:08relationship 80% you know vast majority
1:04:12and I think it's because again women you
1:04:16know we talked about how men are raised
1:04:18in society well women are raised in
1:04:21society to nurture to create connection
1:04:25contion to maintain the family unit
1:04:29right to create relationship and make
1:04:31sure the relationship is good and solid
1:04:34and secure so we were raised with
1:04:38feeling that responsibility for the
1:04:41relationship being good and when we
1:04:43detect something isn't so good we're
1:04:45going to bring it up and that's what
1:04:47causes a lot of the frustration is that
1:04:49we we don't realize we don't have
1:04:51empathy for how the other person is
1:04:54playing a role in creating whole almost
1:04:57that make sense because I I understand
1:04:59as I said my relationship wouldn't be as
1:05:01good if my partner didn't bring up
1:05:03issues but when she brings up issues I'm
1:05:06like why are you bringing up issues you
1:05:07know what I mean and it's that having
1:05:09that empathy sure but again um is she
1:05:13bringing up issues in a way that doesn't
1:05:16feel blaming or
1:05:18critical to be honest to her she is
1:05:24she's bringing them up pretty well great
1:05:27it's the way that I'm kind of
1:05:28interpreting it yeah yeah I think much
1:05:30of the problem well easy you know that
1:05:33happens easily to all of us because you
1:05:36know we've got these this baggage in our
1:05:39background that has created filters in
1:05:42how we hear things how we perceive
1:05:45things I have a hero on one of these
1:05:48videotapes there was a lawyer and this
1:05:51videotape he's helping his wife identify
1:05:54what in his person personality really
1:05:57makes her the most angry and he's
1:05:59helping her do that he's saying well is
1:06:01it is it the way I talk is that it and
1:06:03she says yeah it's the way you talk but
1:06:05what what is it about the way you talk I
1:06:07mean is it what you know do I sound what
1:06:09authoritarian or yes like the King has
1:06:13spoken and he says yeah well you know I
1:06:15can I guess I am like that sometimes
1:06:18works in the courtroom and she says well
1:06:20it doesn't work with me you know and he
1:06:21says well that makes sense he's my hero
1:06:24he just never gets defensive he's saying
1:06:27tell me more tell me more wow what a guy
1:06:32Julie what do we misunderstand about
1:06:33conflict because you know I've come to
1:06:35believe that the key to understanding if
1:06:37a relationship will be successful over
1:06:38the long term is how well the the pair
1:06:41resolve conflict is that right wrong
1:06:45well clearly uh as we said because 69%
1:06:50of all problems are Perpetual they are
1:06:52not going to be solved so if you rely on
1:06:56seeing problems getting solved as an
1:06:59indicator of the success of the
1:07:00relationship it's not going to look good
1:07:03right so you know what I think what we
1:07:07need to understand about
1:07:10conflict that we've written about in our
1:07:13last book is that if we apply the dictum
1:07:19of really understanding our partner and
1:07:23their point of view before before we
1:07:26work on trying to resolve the problem
1:07:29we're going to do much
1:07:30better conflict also gets a really bad
1:07:34WP you know conflict you're not supposed
1:07:37to have conflicts it means if you have a
1:07:40relationship with a lot of conflict that
1:07:42means it's a bad relationship total myth
1:07:45that is not true what we've seen is that
1:07:50couples who do fight but they fight
1:07:53right as we wrote about with the tools
1:07:57that are
1:07:59describing their own feelings and needs
1:08:02rather than blaming the partner then
1:08:05they're going to really understand each
1:08:08other so much better as the underlying
1:08:12dreams within the conflict come out the
1:08:15underlying family history comes out the
1:08:19life purpose comes out think about those
1:08:23big questions in the heart of a
1:08:26conflict that if they are understood oh
1:08:30my God you know so much more about your
1:08:32partner than you did before conflict how
1:08:36do I become great at conflict and is
1:08:38that really what I should be aiming at
1:08:39should I be aiming at getting becoming a
1:08:41master of conflict resolution I think so
1:08:44you know it's not conflict resolution as
1:08:46much as it is conflict management and my
1:08:49secret is that notebook in my back
1:08:51pocket you know so I get it out you know
1:08:54when we have to talk about something
1:08:56important and I listen to what you're
1:08:59saying write it down is it in your
1:09:01pocket now it's in my pocket now I'm
1:09:04thinking of getting one here it is I'm
1:09:07thinking of getting one yeah it's really
1:09:10great you know and so like if I say to
1:09:12her she's upset you know or she wants to
1:09:14talk about something important you know
1:09:17I'm listening I'm taking notes so you
1:09:18know and as I'm writing stuff down it
1:09:21calms me down and I I'm writing it down
1:09:24first first I'm saying why does she keep
1:09:26bringing up issues you know I didn't
1:09:29want to spend my evening this way but
1:09:31then I go oh that's a good point that's
1:09:34that's interesting you know and I start
1:09:37realizing that she makes a lot of sense
1:09:40is part of that moving the issue from
1:09:41your amydala to your prefrontal cortex
1:09:43I.E it's moving it from your emotional
1:09:44Center to your logical Center yeah yeah
1:09:47I really am CU that's that when you were
1:09:49saying it I was like that would be you
1:09:51use the word it calms me down calms me
1:09:53down that would help calm me down as
1:09:55well yeah sure when you're taking notes
1:09:58you know it's more an intellectual
1:10:00process as opposed to an emotional
1:10:02process right so it takes you out of
1:10:05that emotionally getting stirred up by
1:10:08what your partner is saying and into
1:10:10just processing the words the language
1:10:14writing it down which keeps you calm I
1:10:17one time I filled up an entire yellow
1:10:20pad wow she said I want to talk to you
1:10:23and this I haven't talked to about this
1:10:26ever and but I need you to really be
1:10:29quiet and listen and I just kept writing
1:10:32stuff down did he listen Julie when on
1:10:34that occasion he really did it was
1:10:38phenomenal and the wonderful thing that
1:10:40you will discover if you take notes to
1:10:43is that it it makes your partner feel
1:10:46valued feel important feel like whatever
1:10:50they're saying is worth noting down
1:10:53right it blew my mind I had no idea she
1:10:56felt that those things it's important to
1:10:58you it's important to you it's so
1:11:01important that you're going to take
1:11:02notes on it my partner often says to me
1:11:05halfway through an argument she says do
1:11:08you understand what I'm
1:11:09saying you know and she and I and that's
1:11:12quite a curious question because I guess
1:11:14they're checking to see if yeah you've
1:11:15heard and understood them which clearly
1:11:17is so important and that's a good way of
1:11:20indicating that you do understand or at
1:11:22least you're you know you're hearing and
1:11:24understanding mhm then you can say well
1:11:26here's what I understand and then you
1:11:29know sometimes I'll do that Julie said
1:11:32no that's not
1:11:34it what what is it I thought I was
1:11:36hearing you oh you know and oh I missed
1:11:39that repair attempts you write about
1:11:42repair attempts in your books what is a
1:11:44repair attempt John you know here's the
1:11:46interesting thing is that most people
1:11:49don't repair very effectively the way an
1:11:52argument starts is the way it'll go 96%
1:11:55% of the time so uh I had this woman
1:11:58named Nancy draus who came to my lab and
1:12:01she had written a book of things you can
1:12:04say when you're starting to get flooded
1:12:06in an argument it was brilliant book
1:12:08it's called talk to me like I'm someone
1:12:10you love and it was really interesting
1:12:13but she had written these things down
1:12:15when she was very calm and she wrote the
1:12:18book that way but we actually went to
1:12:20the lab and looked at how do couples
1:12:22actually repair when they try to repair
1:12:25and what we found was that any thing
1:12:29that you would do in a business meeting
1:12:31will fail in a love relationship let's
1:12:34take a look at our options and evaluate
1:12:37them what are our priorities here what's
1:12:40our fundamental goal let's be rational
1:12:43about this let's be rational about this
1:12:45let's evaluate the costs of one option
1:12:48versus another
1:12:50doomed and the only thing that worked
1:12:52with somebody would say you know God you
1:12:55know I'm sorry I I said that you know
1:12:58let let me try again or they would say
1:13:01you know um I'm really starting to feel
1:13:04defensive could you could you say that a
1:13:06gentler way and those kinds of repairs
1:13:09that focused on emotion they worked and
1:13:11the earlier they made them in the
1:13:14conversation the more effective they
1:13:15were so these are attempts to repair the
1:13:18relationship or the argument from one
1:13:20side of the argument jul right yes in
1:13:22the middle of the conversation so if one
1:13:25one person senses it's getting off track
1:13:28to get it back on track they may say one
1:13:32of these repair phrases but if the
1:13:36repair is going to be successful the
1:13:38other person has to accept the repair so
1:13:41if John is saying to me hey I'm starting
1:13:44to feel defensive can you say that you
1:13:47know in a gentler
1:13:49way I could either say no way forget it
1:13:53you deserve all the criticism
1:13:55which is rejecting the repair or I could
1:13:59say ah you're right let me let me try
1:14:02again and say it a different way that's
1:14:05accepting it but there's also repair
1:14:09after an argument that has felt horrible
1:14:13and then how do you process and repair
1:14:17that terrible communication you had
1:14:19that's a whole another that's what I was
1:14:22to say of course it was here
1:14:26right we're telepathic yeah so that
1:14:28coming back to it we have a method for
1:14:31doing that a five-step method for
1:14:35revisiting a really regrettable incident
1:14:38that may have happened in the
1:14:39relationship when you're calmer and and
1:14:43that's very effective what is that fight
1:14:46please give it to me yeah let me that
1:14:48okay so it we actually have a little
1:14:51booklet that has all this structured out
1:14:55that a lot of people keep in their glove
1:14:57compartment because some for some reason
1:15:00arguments happen when you're going 70 M
1:15:02an hour down the freeway right never
1:15:04fails so pull out the book okay in the
1:15:07booklet the first step is each person
1:15:11addresses a list of emotions that we've
1:15:14printed out and says out loud which
1:15:17emotion they had during this regrettable
1:15:21incident first of all and they can name
1:15:24as many as they want and there are
1:15:25things like hurt angry abandoned
1:15:28rejected and so on secondly each person
1:15:32has a chance to describe their point of
1:15:36view about what happened from beginning
1:15:38to end of this incident while the other
1:15:42person here we go again takes
1:15:45notes so at the end of the person's
1:15:50narration they then summarize what they
1:15:52heard that person say to make sure they
1:15:54got all the good points and then says
1:15:57something validating like okay from your
1:16:01point of view I can see why you felt
1:16:03that way the way it's narrated is
1:16:08crucial it it sounds like I felt that
1:16:12you were angry at me I saw this angry
1:16:15look at your face I heard you say leave
1:16:19me alone and get out of here I heard I
1:16:22saw I felt mhm I
1:16:25imagined so it's all about I it's not
1:16:29saying you said this mean thing to me
1:16:32which is critical all right so each
1:16:35person has a chance to share their
1:16:38perception that way and their partner
1:16:41summarizes and validates what they heard
1:16:44third people look at did I have any
1:16:47feelings during this that were actual
1:16:50triggers that were feelings that got
1:16:52started long before this
1:16:55relationship in another relationship
1:16:58maybe or even at home with my caretakers
1:17:00or my family if those feelings got
1:17:04triggered again here and now then you
1:17:08share what feeling got triggered which
1:17:11we call an enduring
1:17:13vulnerability and say where it may have
1:17:15gotten started before this
1:17:17relationship that's step three step four
1:17:21you're finally taking responsibility for
1:17:25what you contributed to this regrettable
1:17:28incident by saying what was your state
1:17:30of mind when it happened I was really
1:17:33stressed I needed time alone you know
1:17:36Etc and then specifically saying what
1:17:40you regret saying or doing during the
1:17:43incident and apologizing for it now note
1:17:46how late the apology is coming you're
1:17:49not aping right away because that
1:17:52doesn't work you don't know what you're
1:17:54apologizing for if you haven't first
1:17:58heard the impact of that incident on
1:18:01your partner so step four is apologizing
1:18:05and then hopefully your partner accepts
1:18:07your apology and finally step five is
1:18:10saying one thing your partner can do
1:18:13differently one thing you can do
1:18:15differently to avoid something like this
1:18:18from happening again then you're done
1:18:20the repair attempts somewhat sounded
1:18:22like I was going to say backing down but
1:18:25it was more like taking an object one of
1:18:27you taking an objective view on the
1:18:29situation and kind of stepping outside
1:18:31and saying I'm feeling like this it's
1:18:33almost like you're like stepping out of
1:18:35the video game grabbing the controller
1:18:37versus being in the video game is that
1:18:39kind of like an accurate description I
1:18:41think so yeah yeah cuz sometimes that
1:18:43does happen in my relationships where my
1:18:45partner will almost take a meta analysis
1:18:47on the situation and
1:18:48go I'm not feeling this or I sorry
1:18:53uh I like take a meta approach they
1:18:55almost like step outside and give a
1:18:57commentary and that diffuses it I don't
1:18:59think you're listening to me something
1:19:00like that yeah well they got to be
1:19:03careful about that they have to be
1:19:05careful they shouldn't be number one
1:19:07analyzing you and where you're coming
1:19:09from and they shouldn't be blaming
1:19:11you're not listening to me shouldn't do
1:19:14that but if they say I'm not feeling
1:19:17listened to right now yeah let me try
1:19:20again yeah that's great interesting what
1:19:23about sex and Intimacy in these subjects
1:19:27what have you learned about the role of
1:19:30kissing in the love lab interesting yeah
1:19:34I mean you know we haven't done a lot of
1:19:36research on sex we we did some in that
1:19:39newlywed study cuz sex had gone down
1:19:43dramatically for most couples uh even
1:19:46three years after the first baby was
1:19:48born and so we're asking people how did
1:19:51they cope how did they keep sex alive
1:19:53but the biggest study done on this
1:19:55question was done uh in a book that came
1:19:59out called the normal bar uh Christiano
1:20:02North is the first author of that and
1:20:06they analyze 70,000 people in 24
1:20:10countries and try to discern what's
1:20:13different about people who say they have
1:20:15a great sex life and people who say they
1:20:17have an awful sex life how are those two
1:20:19groups of people different and they
1:20:21discovered that it was the same across
1:20:22the whole planet and and there are
1:20:25really about a dozen things that people
1:20:27do have a great sex life and saying I
1:20:31love you every day and meaning it is one
1:20:33of them giving
1:20:35compliments uh romantic gifts having a
1:20:41lot of touch cuddling so of the people
1:20:44who don't cuddle only 4% of them said
1:20:47they had a great sex life 96% of the
1:20:50non- cuddlers had an awful sex life so
1:20:53touch is very important important even
1:20:56physical touch even in public affection
1:20:57in public was a big thing and really you
1:21:01know that kind of connection the
1:21:03romantic date you know the Romantic
1:21:06vacation that's what they did so nothing
1:21:09involved kissing or what happened in the
1:21:12bedroom so none of that is there but
1:21:15there has been research on just kissing
1:21:18and it turns out that not every culture
1:21:21do humans kiss but in the ones they do
1:21:24kiss is very powerful very erotic for
1:21:26most most couples and it's a nice
1:21:29Gateway into eroticism I found this
1:21:33really interesting study um in your work
1:21:35where it said a 10-year German study
1:21:37that found that right said again you can
1:21:39repeat the study better than I can men
1:21:41who kiss their wives goodbye when they
1:21:43leave for work live something like four
1:21:46years longer than men who don't so and
1:21:49that's a Priory kiss you know don't
1:21:51forget Sten they're getting mured being
1:21:55muted but the sixc kiss which we
1:21:59recommend has much more potential than
1:22:01that pick on the she cheek what is the
1:22:03sixc kiss a kiss that lasts at least six
1:22:06seconds why not five or four because uh
1:22:10oxytocin gets secreted with a 20 second
1:22:13hug or a 6C kiss you're both secreting
1:22:17oxytocin and that creates a sense of
1:22:20psychological safety and connection and
1:22:23bonding and bonding what what do you
1:22:25think about the subject of um sex Julie
1:22:28and you know how important it is for a
1:22:30relationship how much should we be
1:22:32having sex does it really matter is it a
1:22:34predictor of long-term success in
1:22:35marriage great questions um that my
1:22:38clients ask me a lot and there's huge
1:22:42variability in sexual preference some
1:22:46couples actually don't want to have sex
1:22:49at all both people don't want to have
1:22:52sex they'd rather have kind of a sibling
1:22:54relationship ship almost if they're both
1:22:56content with that then they can have a
1:22:59very successful relationship some
1:23:02couples really want to have sex a lot
1:23:05you know all the time and it's a really
1:23:08important component of the
1:23:10relationship uh and everything in
1:23:13between when you run into trouble is the
1:23:17following and I've seen this so many
1:23:19times the men who I guess I would say
1:23:23are hyper master Uline they think that
1:23:27cuddling is too infantile so they don't
1:23:31want to cuddle and the only way they can
1:23:35accept physical contact which they
1:23:37desperately need is through sex period
1:23:41penetrative sex penetrative sex that's
1:23:44right and the woman has 17 children
1:23:48she's trying to make dinner you know
1:23:50she's
1:23:51exhausted um she may not want to have
1:23:53sex near nearly as much as he does so he
1:23:56begins to feel deprived of touch but
1:24:00instead of complaining about that he
1:24:02says we're not having enough
1:24:04sex and she says I'm not getting enough
1:24:08affection and there you have you know
1:24:11some conflict that has to get sorted out
1:24:15it's like they're speaking two different
1:24:16languages of intimacy you what I mean
1:24:19basically in a sense they are they are
1:24:22though typically the in these
1:24:26relationships really basically need
1:24:29touch and can they accept cuddling as
1:24:33something that's just as masculine as
1:24:36penetrative sex
1:24:39well if they really think about it and
1:24:41if they experience it then yeah you C
1:24:44they can then things really will tend to
1:24:47improve the research there John is
1:24:49suggesting though as you said that life
1:24:51is foreplay because if like the the
1:24:55kissing on the way out the door and the
1:24:56touching my partner's back and the
1:24:58cuddle leads to a better sex life then
1:25:01we should see life public displays of
1:25:03affection all that kind of thing as an
1:25:05investment in what happens tonight in
1:25:07the bedroom right I think that's really
1:25:09true every positive thing you do in a
1:25:12relationship is foreplay and the couples
1:25:15who a lot of times the couples who stop
1:25:17having sex have also shut down high
1:25:20conflict couples of stuff having sex
1:25:23have shut down
1:25:24other things other sensual parts of
1:25:27their lives as well you know they're not
1:25:29having much fun and you know 80% of the
1:25:3340,000 couples we studied said that fun
1:25:37had come to die in the relationship
1:25:39there was much play there wasn't much
1:25:41Adventure it wasn't just sex everything
1:25:44shut down all the things that were
1:25:46really delightful you know exploring new
1:25:49kinds of Cuisine you know traveling
1:25:53uh playing games together you know
1:25:56playing sports together how do we stop
1:25:58that happening though you know because
1:25:59I've often wondered people often said to
1:26:02me that eroticism and attraction is
1:26:06about novelty and spontaneousness and
1:26:08doing all that kind of thing and then
1:26:10they've said that love is about
1:26:12familiarity and you know Comfort which
1:26:15are these are two opposite things let me
1:26:18answer that the person who said that
1:26:21it's all about spontaneity and mystery
1:26:24at so on has never done any research the
1:26:29research shows that the
1:26:33familiarity the emotional connection
1:26:37really knowing your partner creates in
1:26:40the long run much more passion what much
1:26:44better sex actually than maintaining
1:26:50mystery but not really connecting to one
1:26:54another the way people need to there's a
1:26:57wonderful book by Emily ngosi called
1:26:59come as you are that reviews This
1:27:01research and it shows that first of all
1:27:05women have more prerequisites for
1:27:07eroticism than men do Jeffy Chase once
1:27:10said women need a reason for sex men
1:27:12need a place that's all so you know but
1:27:16it's true
1:27:18men men don't need to feel safe to feel
1:27:23sexual women do women need to feel
1:27:26psychologically safe and that means
1:27:29emotional connection it also means there
1:27:32can't be a long to-do list of things
1:27:34that they have to get done that's been
1:27:36neglected the dog's been taken out you
1:27:39know and has done his business and all
1:27:42of that and then the situation feels
1:27:44erotic to a woman and she's receptive
1:27:48let me point out something in addition
1:27:50to that that most men don't know at
1:27:53least in the United States one out of
1:27:57four women have been sexually molested
1:28:01or sexually assaulted by the age of
1:28:0518 and that's only the women who report
1:28:08it it's probably one out of three maybe
1:28:1340% including the ones who haven't
1:28:17reported it so when women have that
1:28:22history not not to mention thousands of
1:28:26years in their bones of being seen only
1:28:29as sex objects and being raped you know
1:28:32every other
1:28:33day you get to understand why women need
1:28:38safety much more so than men yeah we
1:28:42wrote a book called The Man's Guide to
1:28:44women to convey all of these bits of
1:28:47information that have been researched so
1:28:51familiarity is the basis for AIC
1:28:55not for the absence of a rism that's a
1:28:58myth so I've heard a lot about
1:28:59epigenetics recently which is this idea
1:29:01that trauma can be passed on from one
1:29:04one generation to the next and with that
1:29:06in mind if women have been sort of sex
1:29:08objects throughout history and have been
1:29:10raped and those kinds of things it's
1:29:12understandable that as you say Julie
1:29:13that they have like an inbuilt need for
1:29:16safety that men might not understand in
1:29:17the same way exactly which what what
1:29:20does that say for to a man what advice
1:29:22do you then give to a man is is the
1:29:23advice you have to make your partner
1:29:25feel safe for them to be aroused or to
1:29:28okay yes what else was in that book by
1:29:29the way it's quite an interesting book I
1:29:30feel like I need to read it yeah it's
1:29:32well you know it's really that awareness
1:29:34of emotional connection and
1:29:36psychological safety being so important
1:29:38to women and also realizing that men who
1:29:42do housework get a lot more
1:29:46sex is that something Julie told you or
1:29:48is that no that is it's actually an
1:29:51empirical result yeah but specifically
1:29:54honey they have to do the vacuum in yeah
1:29:56and get the books off the
1:29:59bed interesting okay are you seeing a
1:30:02difference in our relationship with sex
1:30:05um as the world is changing because
1:30:08there's some stats that suggest we're
1:30:09getting more and more sexless as a as a
1:30:12society have you seen any changes in
1:30:15your 50 years studying love towards
1:30:17attitudes about sex or you know gender
1:30:19roles have changed in that time as well
1:30:21in society so you know I wouldn't say
1:30:24it's sexless but I would say it's
1:30:27Loveless more Loveless in the sense uh
1:30:31you know again I don't know what it's
1:30:32like in England or in other countries so
1:30:35much but in the United States the hookup
1:30:38culture is a is you know alive and
1:30:40thriving there's so many websites in
1:30:44which um men and men women and women men
1:30:48and women are just hooking up meaning
1:30:52meeting up for the first time having sex
1:30:56and departing the end is that a
1:30:59problem yes you know why because in that
1:31:04kind of sex there's no emotional
1:31:07connection zero and I've heard this from
1:31:11both men and women actually that when
1:31:15they leave they feel more empty than
1:31:19before they started having that sex what
1:31:22do you think that is no emotional
1:31:23connection it's impersonal sex they
1:31:27don't know who they're having sex with
1:31:30so you know it's almost like
1:31:32masturbating practically so you know
1:31:36there's a lot of couples who are doing
1:31:38that but they're they're not committing
1:31:43in long-term relationships as much as
1:31:47they used to and I think there's several
1:31:51factors involved in that one is they've
1:31:53seen their parents divorce so they don't
1:31:56believe in marriage or commitment as an
1:31:59institution that they should live
1:32:02to um secondly women have come into the
1:32:07workforce again in the last 50 years and
1:32:11career is equally important to many
1:32:15women as it is to
1:32:17Men on that point do you see issues with
1:32:20women becoming more successful in that
1:32:22emasculating men to some degree because
1:32:26I read about a study that um said
1:32:29there's an expectation in society for
1:32:32men to provide more at home financially
1:32:35and then a separate study showed that um
1:32:38women and it women's sort of equality
1:32:41with men in terms of their pay and
1:32:43education has is getting closer and then
1:32:47the third study says that men can feel
1:32:52emasculated in the presence of a smarter
1:32:55more successful women and they find it
1:32:56less attractive so if you put all this
1:32:58together and you go okay women are
1:32:59getting richer and more intelligent um
1:33:01men are emasculated by that but men
1:33:03still have this ex social expectation
1:33:05that they'll pay the bill in that
1:33:07framework you go Jesus Christ this is
1:33:08going to be difficult
1:33:10for you know and you can look at it
1:33:12another way and say there's less of a
1:33:14pool for women who typically want to
1:33:17date men that have a certain level of
1:33:18education and a certain level of money
1:33:20the pool is smaller than ever before so
1:33:22is this you know this some of the issues
1:33:24of the the mo some of the challenges of
1:33:26the modern world you're right yeah
1:33:28you're absolutely right about that the
1:33:31roles are really changing and um you
1:33:36know I remember this feeling myself
1:33:38actually as I built my career and John
1:33:41and I were together and I kept thinking
1:33:44no no no I should be a housewife I
1:33:46should just be a mom I should just be
1:33:48taking care of the home I shouldn't be
1:33:51devoting all this time to my career but
1:33:53I love my career I want to work and so
1:33:56there would be this turmoil inside about
1:34:00who should I be and I think men are
1:34:02feeling that too for example as I said
1:34:06earlier men are really wanting to be
1:34:08fathers more but how can you be an
1:34:11involved father when you're working like
1:34:14crazy extra overtime to make more money
1:34:17right it's impossible also those old
1:34:22myths have a hard time falling away that
1:34:26men who make more money have more status
1:34:30have more value as human beings are
1:34:33better Partners that's so more male are
1:34:36more male are more masculine it's so not
1:34:39true another thing to keep in mind is
1:34:43that women used to make 79 cents for
1:34:47every
1:34:48dollar that men made now they make 81
1:34:53cents for every dollar you think that's
1:34:56a big change it is not so women are
1:35:00still fighting for equality in terms of
1:35:06career opportunities work opportunities
1:35:09and so on and valuing their
1:35:13career
1:35:16men sometimes you know are struggling
1:35:19who should I be now I used to be the
1:35:22provider who should I be well that's
1:35:25what we've learned right cuz we come
1:35:26from a generation where like my father
1:35:28might have been the provider and my
1:35:29granddad was the provider so I've
1:35:31modeled that and said well for me to be
1:35:33a man like my father and I need to be
1:35:35able to do this but that's right that's
1:35:37right it's a good thing that we're
1:35:38getting closer to equality of course and
1:35:40I know the pay Gap is still there's
1:35:42still a distance there between men and
1:35:43women but it it kind of you can see
1:35:46there being some kind of challenge for
1:35:49men who now don't know their role but
1:35:52Society still has an expectation that
1:35:54they'll pick up the bill you bet it's a
1:35:57difficult conundrum isn't it but it's
1:35:58well it's really hard on men you know I
1:36:01think men in many ways are having as
1:36:04hard if not harder time now in figuring
1:36:09out what their role is and who they want
1:36:12to be compared with women I mean our
1:36:15fight started earlier Right started in
1:36:18the 70s with women's Liberation and Men
1:36:22kind of sat back and went what what's
1:36:24happening I think I think men are
1:36:26discovering the importance of
1:36:28relationships you know uh we typically
1:36:31have had worse emotional support systems
1:36:34you know uh many men don't don't have a
1:36:37best friend don't have close friends and
1:36:40their only con really close connection
1:36:43is with the woman that they live with
1:36:46and or married to and so I think men are
1:36:48discovering how important social
1:36:51connection is in their lives compareed
1:36:54to achievement you know I mean there's
1:36:56this lie that
1:36:58got sold to women that if they really
1:37:01are the caretakers of relationships
1:37:04they'll be happy the lie to men is if
1:37:07you are successful in your career you'll
1:37:09be happy neither neither lie is really
1:37:13useful because both men and women need
1:37:16close connections they need we need
1:37:18friends we need you know there's an
1:37:20epidemic of loneliness you know in the
1:37:23world right now and that's a killer we
1:37:26really need to reach out more not only
1:37:29to make good friends but also reach out
1:37:32to strangers create community and that
1:37:36needs to change you know what's really
1:37:38interesting I mean just think about it
1:37:41if you go on the internet and you look
1:37:44at what women are looking for in a
1:37:47partner what's the first word they say
1:37:51they don't say rich they don't say
1:37:55highly successful great
1:37:58achievements typically they say
1:38:01sensitive right sensitive emotionally
1:38:05aware
1:38:08caring so hopefully men can absorb that
1:38:14is that it's interesting because they do
1:38:17say that yeah and then they also say
1:38:20strong and they say um can protect me
1:38:24and and again it feels like a pole
1:38:26because on one end it appears that that
1:38:28sort of sensitive emotional openness at
1:38:31somewhat sensing contrast to like
1:38:35the it's like how do I very well you
1:38:38have a very lucky part those people
1:38:41probably listening don't even know what
1:38:42I did but I was just flexing my guns it
1:38:43was the gun show so like you see what
1:38:45I'm saying it feels like a contradiction
1:38:46it's like how you be the this and this
1:38:49the testosterone filled beasts that's
1:38:50going to save the day and then the true
1:38:53but keep in mind that being strong
1:38:57doesn't mean being
1:39:00unemotional sometimes it takes more
1:39:02strength and courage to voice emotion
1:39:06than it does to shut them down and what
1:39:10they're talking about you know let's not
1:39:12forget that women are still getting
1:39:14raped still getting assaulted still
1:39:17getting attacked everywhere still
1:39:20getting murdered right so they want a
1:39:24man allegedly who can physically protect
1:39:28them for sure that would feel great
1:39:31because women still feel
1:39:35unsafe
1:39:36however that doesn't necessarily
1:39:39correlate with being
1:39:40unemotional I guess the contradiction
1:39:42goes both ways because men also want a
1:39:44woman that is you know compassionate and
1:39:47soft but they also wanted to just be
1:39:49like to not not be emotional and not
1:39:51keep that so it's like a contradiction
1:39:52both ways yeah yeah yeah we want
1:39:54everything right all at once and that's
1:39:57part of the problem just closing off on
1:39:59this point about sex cuz I had one last
1:40:00question which is does the research show
1:40:02that couples that have the best sex life
1:40:04talk about it the most yes I had this
1:40:07debate with my friend and I was
1:40:07wondering yes no question coupl who talk
1:40:10about it have a better sex life and how
1:40:12should they be talking about it give me
1:40:14some advice on how to talk about sex
1:40:15with my partner you need to talk about
1:40:17it in a way that is uh accepting and
1:40:20loving you know so you talk about what's
1:40:22really great in the relationship what
1:40:24you've enjoyed what you love about your
1:40:27partner what you find sexy about your
1:40:29partner what you wish for more of you
1:40:32know and right we have we created what
1:40:36we call got
1:40:38sex it's isn't that a I we didn't think
1:40:41of the title I promise so it's it's a
1:40:44kit that includes seven different uh
1:40:49structured conversations to have with
1:40:51your partner about sex
1:40:53that have to do with what do you prefer
1:40:58specifically uh how would you like sex
1:41:01to be initiated when would you like it
1:41:03initiated how can we refuse sex without
1:41:06massacring each other's
1:41:08egos how should sex be completed Etc so
1:41:14the couples who talk much more openly
1:41:16and more comfortably about that do much
1:41:19better sexually and for love Maps we
1:41:22have 100 questions you can ask a man
1:41:25about his erotic world and 100 questions
1:41:27you can ask a woman about her erotic
1:41:30world and they're not the same questions
1:41:32men and women h of well just people
1:41:33generally even in sort of homosexual
1:41:35relationships and heterosexual
1:41:36relationships have very different
1:41:38fantasies yeah often linked to their
1:41:40trauma where wherever they come from
1:41:41whatever what happens in a relationship
1:41:43when one partner isn't willing to do the
1:41:47fantasy that the other partner is really
1:41:49craving how how does one navigate that
1:41:52well couple of ways one is the person
1:41:55who's not willing to do it can maybe
1:41:59describe it verbally because couples who
1:42:03talk more during sex actually have
1:42:07better sexual relationships too so if
1:42:11the partner who doesn't want to do what
1:42:13the other wants at least describes it
1:42:17verbally Whispering it in some kind of
1:42:19really cool tone well the guy can get
1:42:23off on that or the woman can get off on
1:42:26that right I'm imagining you're a
1:42:28cheerleader right now and I'm the
1:42:31football
1:42:32player and I'm 6'4 not 5 foot s for all
1:42:37the businesses and entrepreneurs out
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1:43:33doac 24 to get started right now let's
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1:43:41they're a sponsor of this podcast and
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1:44:28about that okay just for you guys the
1:44:30love lab Research indicates that
1:44:31betrayal lies at the heart of every
1:44:33failed relationship this was in your
1:44:36book the seven principles of of making
1:44:38marriage work betrayal there are a lot
1:44:41of ways to really betray a partner in a
1:44:45relationship I mean you know cheating is
1:44:47one way but any kind of betrayal is
1:44:51something that needs to be healed in a
1:44:53relationship for example if you've uh
1:44:56teamed up with somebody in your family
1:44:58against your partner uh at some point
1:45:01that may feel like a betrayal um you
1:45:03know and it doesn't have to be sexual
1:45:05but it's something that needs to be
1:45:07healed because trust and commitment are
1:45:09so important as the Bedrock of every
1:45:12relationship if I was to say tell me the
1:45:16exact you know in your love lab two c a
1:45:18couple walk in and they they're there
1:45:20for 24 hours in your love lab and you're
1:45:22studying them can you
1:45:24roleplay the behavior that a couple who
1:45:27are destined to fail would exhibit oh
1:45:32yes how many ways can we do that okay
1:45:36God these crossover puals are really
1:45:39hard
1:45:41H you know I'm really sick and tired of
1:45:46you always paying attention to your
1:45:48stupid crossw word puzzles they're just
1:45:51they're such a waste of time I don't
1:45:53know why you do that it's it's just
1:45:57stupid yeah well I I I think they're too
1:46:00challenging for you
1:46:01intellectually that's why you avoid them
1:46:04what are you talking about I could do
1:46:05that with almost my eyes CL I never see
1:46:08you do crossover puzzle because it's
1:46:09stupid activity why would I want to do
1:46:11it I think I think you're avoiding it
1:46:14because you're avoiding challenges in
1:46:15your life you do that in every phase of
1:46:18your life avoid challenges you always
1:46:21take the easy Road you think that
1:46:23marrying you was the easy Road are you
1:46:27kidding okay so that's kind of what it
1:46:30looks
1:46:31like I've seen that before have
1:46:35you so have we what's the opposite then
1:46:38using the cross word example again if
1:46:40you role playay the opposite scenario
1:46:42okay boy some of these Challenger cross
1:46:46puzzles are really
1:46:48hard really yeah oh did you find
1:46:51something really hard in one you're
1:46:53doing now yeah it's like you have to
1:46:54know the names of these dinosaurs I've
1:46:58never heard of in order to complete the
1:47:00puzzle oh my God that sounds impossible
1:47:02I know yeah it really does yikes yeah
1:47:05what are you working on right now that's
1:47:06so hard well I you know I'm trying to do
1:47:10these seduko things oh no I'm having a
1:47:12lot of trouble with those oh those are
1:47:14impossible for me oh my God yeah I like
1:47:17that you really love challenges good
1:47:20luck with that I don't think I'll be
1:47:21able to help you okay all right okay so
1:47:25it kind of looks like that and what what
1:47:27are the like fundamental differences
1:47:28like CU is something being deposited in
1:47:31that first example that's going to be
1:47:32Insidious and and to result in the
1:47:34relationship falling down think of the
1:47:36word stupid I used it three times put
1:47:41down criticism
1:47:43contemptuous how does he respond
1:47:46counterattacks you're not smart enough
1:47:48to do these defensiveness these are like
1:47:51personality attacks straight from the J
1:47:54exactly exactly and how does that lead
1:47:57to divorce how does it feel when
1:48:01somebody looks down on us is disgusted
1:48:04by us does think we're stupid do we want
1:48:09to be close to that person M do we want
1:48:11to have sex with that person mm do we
1:48:14trust that person no we do not we pull
1:48:18away from them it can be much more
1:48:20subtle as well than you demonstrated
1:48:22there what like the subtlest ways that
1:48:24that contentment can show up in a in a
1:48:26conversation so you wouldn't you know I
1:48:29I've asked you to do the dishes you
1:48:31wouldn't really think of getting your
1:48:33hands wet to do the dishes would you so
1:48:36that's I really hate getting my hands
1:48:38wet okay so that was a little bit of
1:48:40sarcastic it was sarcastic but getting
1:48:43your hands wet I mean it's it's
1:48:46like it's contempt again what would what
1:48:50advice would you give to me then I'm 31
1:48:52years old I'm four years into my
1:48:54relationship you're what 36 years into
1:48:55your marriage 37 37 years into your
1:48:58marriage what advice would you give to
1:49:00me to make sure that I get 37 years deep
1:49:03you know you've given me lots of advice
1:49:04today about how to argue and how to
1:49:06resolve conflict get this get this
1:49:08notebook I'm going to get a notebook I'm
1:49:10to get I'm going to carry around a
1:49:11notebook and the minute we have an
1:49:13argument I'm going to start taking notes
1:49:14yeah that's my solution you know and do
1:49:18you do you know her dreams this is a
1:49:20really good question CU I think I know
1:49:23her dreams but I've never really asked
1:49:25directly oh which I probably should have
1:49:29according to Julie's eyes yeah you might
1:49:30be surprised by the answer yes sir and
1:49:33does she know yours and why they're so
1:49:37important to you beyond just yeah it's
1:49:40fascinating I'm not even sure I know
1:49:42mine which is a bit of an issue wonder
1:49:45how does it relate to you being from
1:49:49bwana yeah it's it's an interesting
1:49:51thing because I think some sometimes
1:49:53we're scared of voicing our dreams
1:49:54because we think it might result in
1:49:57figuring out that they're unaligned like
1:49:59I think if I asked her what her dreams
1:50:01were she's she's very ambitious she
1:50:03wants to start a family think she wants
1:50:04to live in the the sun somewhere my
1:50:07dreams are probably more focused on I
1:50:10want to start a family 2 but I want to I
1:50:12love doing this podcast there's only a
1:50:14couple of cities in the world where I
1:50:15can do it um and there's only one city
1:50:19in the world where I think I can do this
1:50:20podcast and it's sunny and that's here
1:50:23oh and she might not like being here but
1:50:25for a variety of reasons so it's like
1:50:28and then you when you have kids you
1:50:29realize that you can't just fly around
1:50:30like I do now I have we have to be
1:50:32together and present and raise the kids
1:50:34so I don't know in my head I've just
1:50:36thought cross that bridge when we come
1:50:37to it is that a good way to deal with
1:50:39life
1:50:41no well it's not a bad way it's not a
1:50:44bad way you know it it depends on uh
1:50:48your timing uh but the book we wrote
1:50:50eight dates uh which gives you
1:50:54conversations to have that are really
1:50:56really important as you are establishing
1:51:00a long-term relationship or if you're
1:51:03already in one but you haven't had
1:51:06conversations like these in a while then
1:51:10those are great to have and you don't
1:51:12have to be afraid you know that your
1:51:15dreams
1:51:16are very different from one another
1:51:20because if there's a lot of love of you
1:51:23know with maybe a couple of exceptions
1:51:25out there you can figure out a way to
1:51:27make it work what advice would you give
1:51:29to me then I want all of the advice that
1:51:31you haven't yet given me today okay so
1:51:34one of them would be just remember that
1:51:3785% turning towards figure okay turn
1:51:42towards her as much as you can you don't
1:51:44mean physically you mean no yeah I mean
1:51:47if she makes a little bit for
1:51:50connection like Hey Stephen um come into
1:51:55the kitchen I want to show you something
1:51:58get up and go to the kitchen 85% of the
1:52:00time at least try do your best it's not
1:52:03going to be perfect it's 86% by the way
1:52:06oh honey see here's my numbers man I can
1:52:10always count on him to come up with the
1:52:13okay so you got to work even harder
1:52:15Stephen okay 86% of the time yeah so
1:52:19that's a good one another one is when
1:52:22and you are talking about an
1:52:26issue work really hard to not blame and
1:52:29not criticize yep describe
1:52:32yourself your own
1:52:34feelings what situation you're upset
1:52:37about and what your positive need is not
1:52:40the negative one anything else John we
1:52:43have this great card deck called
1:52:45expressing your needs I don't know if if
1:52:47you got a copy of that one no no you can
1:52:51download it on the on the App Store
1:52:53gotman cardex have it on your phone and
1:52:56once a week just sit down with her and
1:52:58go through and say okay here's here's
1:53:02two things I need this week why why
1:53:04should I do that because then it's real
1:53:06clear you know and she can tell you what
1:53:09two things you you can do to make her
1:53:11happy this week and you know rather than
1:53:15leaving it a chance you know you're a
1:53:18man that loves maths right yes give me
1:53:21some of the most interesting
1:53:23mathematical conclusions you've been
1:53:25able to arrive at through your work
1:53:26through the love lab I think the most
1:53:28amazing one is
1:53:31that the only way to be powerful in a
1:53:34relationship is to accept
1:53:38influence and it's so
1:53:41counterintuitive but that turns out to
1:53:43be really powerful that I I found that
1:53:45very surprising the only way to be
1:53:48powerful is basically to be
1:53:51influenceable be flexible be movable
1:53:54listen to your partner and try to accept
1:53:57some influence from what they're
1:54:00saying not perfectly of course anything
1:54:04else say what you need don't expect your
1:54:08partner to read your mind because they
1:54:10never
1:54:11can anything else yep one more this is
1:54:15one of our favorite
1:54:16questions ask your partner once a
1:54:20week what is something can do next week
1:54:25to make you feel more loved we have this
1:54:28annual honeymoon that we do uh that
1:54:31we've done for 23 years and we go away
1:54:34and bring our kayak and we ask each
1:54:37other three questions over two weeks
1:54:41what sucked about this year what did you
1:54:43like about this year and what do you
1:54:45want next year to be like so we have
1:54:48that once a year time when we can really
1:54:51take a hard look at our lives and see
1:54:54what needs to change here's the deal
1:54:57we're talking to each other all the time
1:55:00yeah because we work together and we're
1:55:03expressing love and affection and
1:55:06gratitude to one another all the time
1:55:10and a lot of our work is
1:55:13fun it would be great if we went out on
1:55:17more
1:55:18dates the pandemic kind of interfered
1:55:21with that quite a
1:55:24bit um but we loved it but we loved it
1:55:27and we love going on dates it's just
1:55:30we're so darn busy like everybody else
1:55:32right and we're really old Stephen so
1:55:35we're getting
1:55:38tired John what does Julie mean to you
1:55:41what does she mean to me what a question
1:55:44W she's
1:55:47really the most important thing in my
1:55:50life absolutely the most important thing
1:55:53waking up in the morning and having her
1:55:56be next to me is such a joy and cuddling
1:56:00with her and our dog is just wonderful
1:56:03thing every morning and and now we get
1:56:07to be grandparents together we have this
1:56:10two-year-old little boy that we're both
1:56:12in love with and we get to see our
1:56:15daughter be a mom you know
1:56:20it's it's the greatest gift that
1:56:23anybody's ever given me is to become a
1:56:26father she means everything to me she
1:56:29wasn't in your life what would you be
1:56:31missing
1:56:33Everything
1:56:35Everything Julie what does John mean to
1:56:39you he's the most adorable wonderful
1:56:44lovable
1:56:46person I've ever had in my life what he
1:56:50means to me is that he has healed me
1:56:54from a lot of my own past
1:56:57[Music]
1:56:58trauma he makes me laugh all the time
1:57:02and I didn't know how to laugh at all I
1:57:06never laughed before I met
1:57:09him he supports my
1:57:12dreams nobody ever cared about my dreams
1:57:16knew about my dreams before I met him
1:57:21including crazy dreams like going to
1:57:24Antarctica by myself he supported that
1:57:27isn't that
1:57:28amazing he is the most supportive
1:57:31wonderful man and the other thing is
1:57:34that he's so damn smart I knew I would
1:57:38never be bored and he reads a million
1:57:43times as much as I do I mean I read a
1:57:46lot but he reads so much that I'm
1:57:49constantly learning from him
1:57:52so he's a source of knowledge source of
1:57:55laughter source of sunshine source of a
1:58:00fabulous fabulous fabulous daughter and
1:58:03son-in-law and grandson and he's got the
1:58:06most beautiful eyes in the whole wide
1:58:08world that's what he means to me besides
1:58:11that I love his hat he always wears the
1:58:15same hat and he has for like 40 years
1:58:18because it makes him look like a Jewish
1:58:21intellectual B bik what could be better
1:58:24she's talking about my leather hat oh
1:58:26okay going to
1:58:29say Fishman at fight right the book is
1:58:33come out I think February 1st M January
1:58:3630th yeah ah okay why did you write this
1:58:39book why was it so important there's so
1:58:41many things that you could have written
1:58:42about from one of your research but for
1:58:43some reason you wrote a book called
1:58:45fight right why did why take a look at
1:58:48the
1:58:50world fighting
1:58:52especially in the United States has
1:58:54become more polarized than
1:58:58ever secondly hatred has become
1:59:04sanctioned as uh a fine way to express
1:59:08your own political points of view has
1:59:11there been any listening to each other
1:59:15zip none and so you know we can't we're
1:59:20not politicians we're not going to w the
1:59:22whole social system but if we can change
1:59:26how people listen to one another and
1:59:28love one another at home which is what
1:59:32we know the most about then we can hope
1:59:35and pray for a ripple effect to move out
1:59:39into
1:59:40society and create more love out in the
1:59:44world too where we need it so much
1:59:47Making Peace one family at a time oh I
1:59:50love it nice
1:59:53one we have a closing tradition on this
1:59:55podcast where the last guest leaves a
1:59:56question for the next guest not knowing
1:59:57who they're leaving it for I'm going to
1:59:59ask you both to answer the question I
2:00:01don't get to see it until I open the
2:00:02book here we
2:00:06go oh interesting so I'm going to start
2:00:10this with Julie um if you could go back
2:00:14and tell your parents any one thing at
2:00:18the time you were born what would it be
2:00:29I would tell my
2:00:31father would you please stay
2:00:35home at
2:00:38least one day a week instead of
2:00:42abandoning my mother every single day
2:00:44seven days a week I would tell my
2:00:48mother stop being critical stop being
2:00:53contemp
2:00:55contemptuous try to look for what all of
2:00:59us are doing
2:01:00right and say that rather than only
2:01:04pointing out what we're doing wrong why
2:01:07wasn't
2:01:08he he was a
2:01:10cardiologist so he was constantly gone
2:01:14saving lives
2:01:15basically uh as a cardiologist and when
2:01:18he wasn't he was playing golf classic
2:01:22cardiologist and I think my mother may
2:01:25have drove him a little
2:01:27crazy cuz she was a very very disturbed
2:01:32individual so he
2:01:34escaped and he was a 50s 1950s father
2:01:39right which meant all he had to do was
2:01:42provide that was it no role with the
2:01:46children and your mother I'm guessing
2:01:48didn't know how to fight in the way that
2:01:50you describe it in this book oh my God
2:01:53no no no no no no no my my mother had
2:02:01witnessed horrible violence and rape
2:02:05within her home she was incested herself
2:02:09in her own home growing up as a
2:02:13child she didn't feel like she had any
2:02:16value other than her beauty and she was
2:02:19very very beautiful
2:02:22so she didn't feel entitled to ask for
2:02:26what she needed and you need to feel at
2:02:29least some of that in order to fight for
2:02:33what you want and what you need and J
2:02:37same question yeah what would I tell my
2:02:39parents yeah I I think
2:02:46that I would tell my
2:02:50parents first of all how much I love and
2:02:53appreciate them for who they were and I
2:02:59don't think I did that
2:03:01enough um especially with my dad and I
2:03:07would also tell my parents to be better
2:03:10parents toward my
2:03:12sister cuz we really lived in two
2:03:15different
2:03:16families and my sister didn't have an
2:03:21easy going
2:03:22temperament and um and she was extremely
2:03:27talented musically and I wish they had
2:03:30supported her music and loved her better
2:03:34because she really needed it
2:03:38and I think they could have done a much
2:03:40better job being parents of her they did
2:03:43a great job with me what was the cost to
2:03:46your
2:03:46sister I think she felt really
2:03:50unloved still
2:03:53especially by my
2:03:55mom and I felt very loved by my
2:03:58mom I think that's kind of served to
2:04:01make sense of why you both do what you
2:04:03you do in many respects you both have an
2:04:06origin story which is sort of pertinent
2:04:08and present in the work that you do and
2:04:10the perspectives you both take on the
2:04:13subject matter of love and relationships
2:04:15comes from two very different places and
2:04:17um we all have an origin story of love
2:04:19and relationships and I think think we
2:04:22often discount how important and
2:04:23formative that is for us I mean I know
2:04:25from myself personally my my life is
2:04:28dominated by by love and relationships
2:04:30and My Success my business everything
2:04:31that I've done in my life is comes back
2:04:33to the early relationships I had my
2:04:35perspective on love and the lack of Love
2:04:38or you know the love that I once needed
2:04:40so thank you so much to both of you for
2:04:42really being seen as the you know you
2:04:43are seen as the Pioneers on this subject
2:04:46and I said to you before we started
2:04:47recording that so many of my guests have
2:04:48come on this show and mentioned your
2:04:50work they've quoted your work and these
2:04:51are some of the most successful people
2:04:52in the world they're scientists they're
2:04:54neuroscientists Etc but even long before
2:04:57I got to meet you many years ago I did a
2:04:58live show across the UK and I was
2:05:00quoting stuff that came out of your love
2:05:02love lab and on stage in front of
2:05:04thousands and thousands and thousands of
2:05:05people so thank you for turning the
2:05:08lights on to a subject that matters so
2:05:10much to human happiness and health as
2:05:12we've discovered because it's some of
2:05:14the most important work that I think
2:05:15anyone could do in for Humanity and you
2:05:17guys have been leading the way in doing
2:05:18it so thank you both so much thank you
2:05:20stepen for having us on your podcast
2:05:23thank you so much given that you have
2:05:26interviewed some of the most successful
2:05:28brilliant people on the
2:05:31planet uh to be honoring love in the way
2:05:36that you're doing because by doing that
2:05:39you are really endorsing how important
2:05:42love is and everybody needs to hear that
2:05:45so thank you well said honey
2:05:49indeedy everyone needs to go get your
2:05:51books I mean there's quite a lot of them
2:05:52but this particular one here I think
2:05:54everyone should start with because
2:05:56conflict resolution knowing how to um
2:05:58take on conflict knowing how to address
2:05:59it knowing how to be a better sparring
2:06:02partner in relationships so that it can
2:06:04be you and your partner versus the
2:06:05problem versus instead of you versus
2:06:08your partner I think is foundational to
2:06:10us finding the love that most of us are
2:06:11searching for but that feels so elusive
2:06:14so I'd recommend everybody to go get the
2:06:15book I'm going to link in the
2:06:16description below thank you so much
2:06:18we're
2:06:20done
2:06:21[Music]
2:06:41oh

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