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The Ghislaine Maxwell Update: Who killed Robert Maxwell? | STUFF THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW — Transcript

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0:00From UFOs to psychic powers and
0:02government conspiracies, history is
0:04riddled with unexplained events. You can
0:07turn back now or learn the stuff they
0:10don't want you to know.
0:12A production of IHeartRadio.
0:24Hello, welcome back to the show. My name
0:26is Matt.
0:27My name is Noel. They call me Ben. We're
0:29joined as always with our super producer
0:32Paul mission control dekant. Most
0:34importantly, you are you, you are here,
0:37and that makes this stuff they don't
0:39want you to know.
0:41As we record today, Ghislaine Maxwell is
0:44currently incarcerated and trying
0:47desperately to get out of to get out
0:50jail in time for the holidays. You might
0:53recognize this name, folks. It's most
0:57associated with Jeffrey Epstein, the
1:00convicted child abuser who died under
1:03mysterious circumstances
1:05while in prison. We did a multi-part
1:08series on this. How it was it three,
1:10four episodes?
1:11Uh yeah, we've done several updates
1:13since that series, too. So, yeah,
1:15there's a lot.
1:16Mhm. And we even did like an update to
1:18the update where we added like an
1:19addendum or something cuz there was some
1:21breaking news that day. Yes, that is
1:23correct.
1:24room, if I'm not mistaken. Mhm. We
1:26recorded recorded one of the last bits
1:29of that update in a hotel room as the
1:32as the story was developing.
1:36And we're returning today for an update
1:40on Ghislaine Maxwell, who is in the news
1:42a little bit, but not getting as much
1:44coverage hadn't been getting as much
1:46coverage as Epstein for for a time. That
1:50changed recently for some for some very
1:53odd reasons, but let's let's start at
1:55the beginning with Ghislaine. Here are
1:58the facts. Uh Maxwell was born in France
2:01on Christmas Day, December of 1961.
2:06She was the youngest child of media
2:08magnate, some might describe as
2:10disgraced media magnate, Robert Maxwell.
2:13He founded a publishing house
2:16that went on to be quite successful
2:18called Pergamon Press.
2:21She was one of nine children and she
2:24grew up in absolute opulence of the
2:28highest order. She lived in a mansion
2:31that had a name, you know, and you know
2:33it's a mansion if it has a name. That's
2:34more like an estate. And it had a great
2:36one, a very British one, Headington Hill
2:38Hall. It's a It's a good name. And
2:41Maxwell is also pretty interesting and
2:43cool name. It always makes me think of
2:45that Beatles song Maxwell's Silver
2:47Hammer. Hey, there you go.
2:50A lot like that.
2:51Like Robert Maxwell's a character that
2:54could be an entire episode. Maybe it
2:56should. Maybe eventually we'll we'll do
2:58that. But let's just focus on Ghislaine
3:01here for a bit. You know, she grew up
3:03very in luxury, let's say. Very
3:05privileged. Eventually she attended
3:07Oxford University and she kind of she
3:11wasn't I wouldn't characterize it as
3:13being used. I would say she was
3:16effectively
3:18utilized by her father to become a
3:21socialite. Like as a socialite. As a
3:23person who makes connections. Who kind
3:26of goes in first and you know, connects
3:29other people to the Maxwell family.
3:31of socialites, you think of people like
3:33Paris Hilton who just sort of live these
3:34frivolous lives. She was almost more
3:37groomed to be like an operative. You
3:39know what I mean? Like it was very much
3:42I I think you were right on when you
3:43first said it. I think she was used at
3:45an early age and kind of groomed to be
3:48this tool of her father's empire. And
3:50that could be said for uh
3:53other siblings, other other members of
3:55the Maxwell clan. I we're we're going to
3:59be planting some seeds about Sir Robert
4:02Maxwell, and they will come to fruition
4:05in this episode. Uh
4:08yeah, a socialite is a group is an
4:10umbrella term that can mean a number of
4:12things. Uh given that her father had a
4:15bedside manner that could be best
4:17described as terrible, uh he needed
4:20someone like this uh to be able to make
4:22those connections, to play the games of
4:25the wealthy, uh and channel
4:27philanthropic endeavors, and you know,
4:30at times do what is essentially the
4:32legal version of laundering money.
4:35So, today, of course,
4:38Ghislaine Maxwell is best known for her
4:41long-running relationship with the the
4:44the disgraced financier and convicted
4:47child abuser, the late Jeffrey Epstein.
4:50But, there are still What I find
4:51interesting is there's still questions
4:53about how Maxwell and Epstein met. The
4:57Times reported that Maxwell and Epstein
5:01met in the early 1990s after she had had
5:05a difficult breakup with Count
5:08Gianfranco
5:09Sigona Mazzoni.
5:12Who, like a lot of um
5:14like a lot of European aristocrats,
5:17uh
5:18took their vast generational wealth and
5:21and channeled it into industries. This
5:23is a hotel guy. So, she had a rough
5:25breakup, she had this party in New York,
5:27she meets Jeffrey Epstein, they hit it
5:29off, but other sources argue they met
5:32before then, that they met in 1988.
5:36There's a There's a cool podcast about
5:38this called Broken Seeking Justice, and
5:41in there they relay information from a
5:44convicted con artist, a Ponzi scheme guy
5:46named Steve Hoffenberg, and he had once
5:49upon a time worked with Epstein. And on
5:51that show, he says that uh Ghislaine
5:54Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein met through
5:57her father, Robert Maxwell. And Matt, I
6:00love your point there. He is best known
6:03as Robert Maxwell, but that's not the
6:04name he was born with.
6:06Uh the the the podcast, by the way, was
6:08unable to corroborate Hoffenberg's
6:10claim, but then there are other sources
6:15that say a very similar thing. And one
6:18of these people was a former staffer of
6:20Epstein's who says that Ghislaine
6:23Maxwell uh was making them look at
6:25albums, like photo albums, and just kind
6:28of going over, "Oh, here's this. Here's
6:30this person." And it was photos from her
6:31father's funeral. Apparently, when um
6:34when this staffer was just told, "Oh,
6:35yeah, that's when I met uh Jeffrey."
6:38Yeah, it just we're we're talking about
6:40the Sigma Hotels clan, you know, kind of
6:42connecting up there with the Maxwell
6:44family. You have to know that if you've
6:47ever heard of the Daily Mail or
6:49Mhm. I think it's the the Mirror. Yeah.
6:51That's what that's what her family
6:53owned. Which are all kind of trash
6:55papers, if I'm not mistaken. I mean,
6:56they're they're sort of like considered
6:58lower on the uh journalistic integrity
7:00totem pole, let us say.
7:02Well, in
7:02Yeah.
7:03Yeah, and and especially in
7:06you know, 2020 in the in the 20 2000s
7:09and stuff. But remember, we're talking
7:10about the '80s and '90s like as these
7:13papers are kind of first coming to
7:15become a thing. And they were still I I
7:17I mean,
7:18Maxwell could be described as a media
7:21magnate, but he was also often described
7:23as a tabloid tycoon.
7:25Yeah, like a yellow journalist kind of
7:27type deal. Right. So, however Maxwell
7:31Ghislaine Maxwell and Epstein actually
7:34did meet, they soon became an item. They
7:36were dating for some amount of time, and
7:40afterward they remained, to the public
7:42eye as friends, you know, as associates.
7:45One of those relationships that ends
7:47amicably, no harm, no foul. That's a
7:50That's a beautiful thing as anybody
7:52who's experienced that can attest. If
7:55you want full details
7:57on the extent of Epstein's proven crimes
8:01and Ghislaine Maxwell's alleged
8:03involvement, then check out our
8:05multi-part series on Epstein. It is not
8:08appropriate for all audience members. It
8:10goes very
8:12in It's a very in-depth look that has
8:15origins, what he did, his close calls,
8:17how he got caught, and uh the questions
8:20remaining around his death. And I
8:21haven't watched it yet, but I've been
8:23maybe because it's just you know, times
8:25are dark. I kind of want like uplifting
8:27material, but there's a Netflix
8:28documentary that's supposed to be quite
8:30good as well. Mhm.
8:32Essentially, bottom line is that
8:34Ghislaine Maxwell is currently accused
8:37of aiding and abetting
8:40multiple acts of sexual abuse, grooming,
8:43trafficking, and more. Uh this included
8:46her scouting out victims of Epstein and
8:49his associates uh like Prince Andrew. Uh
8:53this also included accusations of
8:55occasionally participating in sexual
8:58acts with the victims herself. So,
9:01actually get getting her quote-unquote
9:02hands dirty. And there's a lot of
9:04alleged activity there that isn't
9:07necessarily, you know, identified in any
9:10of the cases against her,
9:12but alleged activity activity of her
9:14specifically
9:16recording a lot of these uh activities.
9:20Right. Right, which comes into play
9:22later because we do know that Epstein
9:24obsessively recorded
9:27encounters, especially with uh
9:30especially encounters that he had
9:31brokered he and Ghislaine had brokered
9:33between uh the victims and notable
9:37figures in the world of politics, in the
9:39world of aristocracy, and in the world
9:41of business.
9:42Robert Maxwell is one of these giants.
9:45He wasn't, as far as we know, he
9:48he was
9:50aware of Epstein and had worked with him
9:52or interacted with him, and uh, he he
9:56has some murky involvement, but he's not
9:58in this story. The reason you don't see
10:00him too often in the Epstein saga is
10:04because he died in 1991.
10:08And about 19 days after his death,
10:10someone took a photo at the Plaza Hotel
10:13during a memorial event for this guy,
10:15and this photo shows Ghislaine Maxwell
10:17and Jeffrey Epstein mid-conversation,
10:20and they look like they're having a
10:21pleasant time. Just remember, we'll
10:24we'll get back to Robert in a second.
10:26We're just planting the seeds. So, back
10:28to the crimes. Epstein, quick timeline.
10:30Arrested July 6th, 2019. Unlike the
10:34previous arrest, this one sticks. He
10:37goes on to die in jail on August 10th,
10:402019, before he reaches trial.
10:43Ghislaine Maxwell is arrested in New
10:46Hampshire on July 2nd, 2020. Uh, in a
10:50house that she bought with cash. Uh,
10:53it's a million-dollar house. Uh, it
10:55makes me think of our foreign investment
10:57episode. Uh, she's arrested on multiple
10:59charges related to this abuse of young
11:01women and girls by Epstein. Her trial
11:04has been set for July 12th, 2021.
11:08Like everything else, that's probably
11:10pandemic pending. Yeah, and as we are
11:13recording this episode, she currently
11:14sits in prison. Uh, her bail was denied
11:18because she has a lot of money and
11:20access to planes. She also, by the way,
11:23has a helicopter pilot's license. I
11:25don't know if it's still valid today,
11:27but at one point she got a helicopter
11:29pilot's license and was gifted a
11:31helicopter by Epstein.
11:33Her uh father actually is also, just a
11:35peek into this guy, her father is was
11:38actually a big fan of helicopters, too.
11:40He owned a He had a helicopter strip on
11:43top of one of his buildings.
11:45Almost entirely so he could use it to
11:49fly over Rupert Murdoch's office on his
11:53way to and from things because Rupert
11:55Murdoch did not have a helicopter.
11:58You think he like would hawk a Lugia out
12:00of the helicopter like onto the top of
12:01the building just I'm sure for funsies.
12:04He was He was also
12:05like a petty dude. Yeah, he was also
12:07known for urinating off the top of his
12:09office building. And off the side of his
12:11boat. Yeah, off the side of his boat.
12:13Mhm. But But at least he was
12:15It's a yacht, guys. You can't call it a
12:16boat.
12:16Excuse me. Sure. Excuse me. Sure. Uh but
12:19his uh at least he was wearing clothes
12:21when he was urinating off the building.
12:24That's not the case with the ship.
12:25No. And I wanted to add just one
12:27little detail that I I
12:29hadn't heard before, but I was watching
12:31like an old 60 Minutes, not old, like,
12:33you know, from when the Epstein case
12:34kind of first really heated up, and it
12:36was talking about Ghislaine Maxwell and
12:39from the perspective of this young uh
12:40former art student at the uh New York
12:43Art Institute, or I'm sorry, the New
12:44York Ac- uh New York Academy of Art, and
12:48uh Epstein apparently and and Maxwell
12:51were benefactors of hers, and it was
12:53Maria Farmer, and like they really liked
12:55her paintings and bought some of her
12:57first work, and then um Epstein hired
13:00her to kind of be his art buyer like for
13:02his mansion to like, you know, like
13:04outfit his home with like, you know,
13:06good art, tasteful art, cuz he he liked
13:08her taste, but she would ride around
13:10with them all the time, and uh you spent
13:12a lot of time with Maxwell personally.
13:15She talks about a story in this uh 60
13:17Minutes where Maxwell would very
13:19frantically
13:20at the end of the day say, "Oh gosh,
13:22I've got to go find the new biles. I
13:25have to go get the new biles." And she's
13:27like, I don't know what that means. And
13:28she realized that she would go to just
13:30like run out of the car, go to like
13:32parks or like when schools were letting
13:34out and she would see her just write
13:35down her phone number and give it to
13:37these young girls. Some of them she said
13:39that had braces that were like, you
13:41know, that young and then they'd turn up
13:43to the mansion and they just say, oh,
13:45they're going to be models. You know,
13:46for what? I don't know. What do you need
13:48models for if you're a financier? But,
13:50yeah. Financial models.
13:52Mhm. This is that's a common thing. You
13:54know, you're you're right though. That
13:56that 60 minutes is worth is worth a
13:58watch. You can also hear a couple of
13:59audio interviews, I think, with the same
14:01person, same victim.
14:04So, it appears that
14:06now, currently, it appears that
14:09Ghislaine Maxwell also has another close
14:13romantic relationship, a tech CEO and
14:16former Coast Guard officer named Scott
14:19Borgerson.
14:20They met some time ago before the arrest
14:24and they interacted also through an
14:26obscure organization Maxwell founded
14:28called the TerraMar Project. So, like
14:31Earth Sea Project. And
14:34they appear to be in a relationship,
14:36although Borgerson denied it for a
14:38while. They were living together in
14:40Manchester-by-the-Sea
14:42after Maxwell sold her town home on the
14:45Upper East Side in 2016.
14:48Uh that's the same year she struck
14:49several confidential settlements in
14:51civil court with women who said they
14:54were exploited by
14:55Epstein. But, Borgerson is interesting.
14:59Okay, so he's not he's not this landed
15:02gentry or he's not someone who inherited
15:04a bunch of money. He comes from rural
15:06Missouri. He
15:08actually did earn his way in the world.
15:11And so, he's somewhat anomalous in a lot
15:14of these upper-echelon circles.
15:16He also, this is a bit of red meat for
15:20the more conspiracy-minded
15:22of us. He also worked for the Council on
15:26Foreign Relations from 2007 to 2008. He
15:29was fellow in residence, and then
15:32and then he transferred and became
15:33visiting fellow for Oceans Governance
15:36with the organization from '08 to '2010.
15:39It's kind of interesting like I would
15:41maybe you would kind of characterize
15:43someone like this as new money, right?
15:45Cuz all of these like, you know, landed
15:47gentry as you say Ben and the
15:48generational money, they often look down
15:50on folks like that, which is ironic
15:52considering it typically means that
15:53someone actually bootstrapped themselves
15:56from nothing to like being a success as
15:58opposed to just kind of inheriting it
16:00and like, you know, parlaying their, you
16:02know, fortune they were born with into
16:04more, you know, fortune. Um, it almost
16:06is interesting that that's usually a
16:08term of abuse. So, it is interesting
16:09that he would have found his way into
16:11the inner circle with someone like
16:13Maxwell. Mhm, and the CFR.
16:16And then
16:17at this uh at one of these hearings
16:20post-arrest, it's very weird.
16:23Uh,
16:24prosecutors drop a bombshell because
16:27they say that Maxwell is in fact
16:30secretly married,
16:33but they do not disclose the identity of
16:35her spouse. It's just not Epstein. At
16:38some point post-relationship with
16:40Epstein, she got married, and
16:44investigators weren't able to find any
16:47uh
16:48any information about this on publicly
16:50available, widely available databases,
16:52but that could mean that they married in
16:55a foreign country or something. There
16:57are a couple of different ways that
16:58could happen and still be legal, but now
17:01that spouse appears to be Scott
17:03Borgerson. This has not been solidly
17:05proven, but it adds some wrinkles to an
17:08already twisting story. There's a great
17:11New York Times article about this that
17:13quotes a defense lawyer, Jeffrey
17:15Chabraw, and he he says something very
17:20interesting and I don't want to be too
17:23cynical about this, but he raises a good
17:25point when he says there are reasons
17:27that people might get married other than
17:30love, especially if they're facing a
17:32criminal indictment.
17:34Yeah. You know, one of them is all is
17:37kind of obvious if you've watched any
17:39crime procedural on television. That
17:41whole like you you can't testify against
17:44me if if you're my spouse thing. But the
17:47big one, the one that makes a lot of
17:49sense here, I think, is the concept that
17:53being married can help you move some
17:54money around a lot easier. And we know,
17:59at least according to the reports, that
18:01Ghislaine Maxwell is worth around 20
18:03million. That's what she kind of has or
18:06had, I guess, at one point very
18:08recently. But
18:10it would seem that the circles in which
18:12she runs, her background,
18:14her interactions with Epstein, the
18:16amount of money that he had and his
18:19Epstein estate currently has,
18:21it feels like maybe there is or was more
18:24money to be moved around. Curiouser and
18:27curiouser. Yeah. And in the latest news,
18:31so right now, just to be completely
18:34transparent, we're recording this on
18:35December 11th. We're preparing for this
18:38episode on December 10th. Yesterday,
18:41reports emerged that Maxwell,
18:44Scott Borgerson, and some of Maxwell's
18:46siblings are teaming up to propose a
18:50somewhere between a 28.5
18:53million and 30 million dollar bail
18:56package. That's 25 million straight from
18:58Scott.
19:00The other five-ish million from her
19:02siblings and it's an attempt to free
19:05Maxwell
19:06before the holidays. They're trying to
19:09get her out of the Metropolitan
19:10Detention Center in Brooklyn.
19:13And they they say that she'll relinquish
19:15her multiple passports,
19:18she'll go to house arrest, she'll get
19:19electronic monitoring.
19:22She has a French passport, that's one of
19:24the ones she has, and French authorities
19:26have brought a case against her there as
19:27well.
19:28The team that is trying to get her out,
19:32the lawyers working on this, siblings,
19:34call the plan Operation Get Ghislaine
19:37out. We're not even We're not even at
19:39the crazy part yet. To get there, we
19:41have we have to like look at some
19:43speculation. Can we Can we just say Can
19:45we just say maybe they spend $30 million
19:48to get her out just to have like a
19:50Christmas dinner? Yeah, but but like
19:52separated by 6 ft wearing masks. I don't
19:55know. That's just That's hilarious to
19:57me.
19:58Well, I'm sure if you have if
20:01All right, I'm going to say it. Wealthy
20:03people are going to get the vaccines
20:04first. Oh, no question. So, I think that
20:08they may already be I don't know. I
20:10don't know. I don't want to I don't want
20:12to be that person, but statistically
20:14they're much more likely to enjoy
20:18post-pandemic freedoms faster, more
20:20quickly.
20:21So, to get to the actual crazy part of
20:24this,
20:26we have to look at some of the
20:28speculation, some of the concerns,
20:31some of the rumors
20:32that have been spreading
20:34as Ghislaine Maxwell has been
20:37incarcerated. First, number one, let's
20:39point out the biggest badger in the bag,
20:42people are worried about the possibility
20:44that she will be quote Epsteined. Ah.
20:47What does that mean?
20:48As though she would appear to commit
20:51suicide while being held in prison.
20:54Although perhaps it was not suicide.
20:57That's That's the speculation.
20:59And you know, there
21:01we can't prove right now on this
21:03podcast, and I don't think there's
21:05anyone out there right now
21:07that can come on a podcast and and prove
21:10to you for sure that Jeffrey Epstein did
21:12not commit suicide. But as we've talked
21:14about on numerous episodes on this show,
21:16Jeffrey Epstein's death feels
21:18ridiculously fishy. Oh, yeah. I mean the
21:20whole like the guards fell asleep story.
21:24I mean that's that's just come on.
21:26Busted cameras, the hyoid bone, the
21:28timeline. There are issues with it even
21:31if you consider yourself
21:33convinced that he took his own life
21:36and a series of ridiculously incompetent
21:41actions
21:42allowed him to do so successfully, there
21:44are still a lot of questions. And it's
21:45not just, you know, people in the
21:47internet or people on podcast
21:49speculating about this. There are also
21:51investigative journalists, uh numerous
21:54citizen observers, legal groups, and
21:57Epstein's own lawyers say that they
22:00don't believe the official story. So,
22:02naturally, similar concerns are going to
22:04arise regarding regarding Maxwell's
22:05safety.
22:07But then that from that, okay, from that
22:09piece, we build another one. Uh this
22:13there's a I'm doing a bit of a
22:14conspiratorial Bob Ross thing, right?
22:16So, our first brush stroke is the
22:19circumstances of death. Our second brush
22:22stroke
22:23is concerns about
22:26Okay, if Jeffrey Epstein was murdered,
22:30who was behind it? There are concerns
22:32that there might be some person or some
22:35organization
22:37behind his murder and then therefore
22:39they would be the most likely culprit
22:41were anything untoward to happen to
22:44Ghislaine Maxwell. It was MI6. You think
22:47it was MI6?
22:48Yes, Prince Andrew and MI6.
22:51That's now I'm just I'm joking there.
22:53I'm joking.
22:53I don't know, dude. I mean, to me it's
22:54almost like you could take your pick.
22:57There are probably several world
22:58governments that would have had reasons
23:00to bump that guy off. With as
23:02international as his clientele was in
23:04terms of the investments,
23:06God knows that was probably a lot of
23:07crooked stuff going on there. Not to
23:08mention all the people that were on his
23:10plane and on his island and complicit
23:12that we don't even maybe know about, you
23:14know? Mhm. Uh yeah, and I do want to say
23:16that uh Prince Andrew, if you're
23:18listening, uh I think No Sweat would be
23:21really cool street name for you. Uh
23:24but back then, I didn't sweat. Back
23:26then. Explain the origin of that to me,
23:28Ben, real quick. I heard you mention it
23:30at the top of the show. I don't think
23:31I've heard that one. He was literally
23:32saying
23:34I don't sweat, so that you couldn't have
23:35my DNA or something? Or what what what's
23:37he saying? So,
23:39in
23:402019,
23:42he was
23:44trying to prove that he did not assault
23:48a 17-year-old in the 1990s, and part of
23:52his explanation for that was that uh
23:56the victim
23:58said that she danced with the prince and
23:59you Prince Andrew was sweating profusely
24:01and then so much so that she had to go
24:03have a bath later cuz she was sodden
24:05from it. And then he said, quote,
24:08"There's a slight problem with the
24:09sweating because I have a peculiar
24:11medical condition, which is that I don't
24:14sweat. Or I didn't sweat at the time."
24:16And that was
24:17was it. Yes, I I didn't sweat at the
24:19time. So, does he just like hang his
24:21head out the window with his tongue out
24:22like a dog? Like is that how he
24:25releases
24:27uh Didn't go Didn't Didn't go into it.
24:29Didn't I I think it's a good street
24:31name. And in that same interview, the
24:32interviewer says uh to Prince Andrew,
24:35"Just for the record, you've been on his
24:37private plane." Yes. You've been to stay
24:41on his private island. Uh-huh. You've
24:43stayed on his home on Palm Beach. Sure.
24:47You visited Ghislaine Maxwell's house in
24:49Belgrade here in London.
24:50I mean, yeah, what are you getting at? I
24:52mean, come on. He
24:54Yes, for for the record, uh on on our
24:57show, he's just says yes to to every one
25:00of those questions. But, I I don't
25:02really know why we're saying this.
25:04Mostly just because that
25:07concept that, "Oh, it couldn't have been
25:09me because of the whole sweat thing."
25:11When you compare that to the fact that
25:13he was in all of those places where the
25:14alleged sexual abuse was occurring,
25:17it just
25:19you can tell it feels off.
25:21Yeah, so that's that's where we get to
25:22the idea, the concern of conspiracy,
25:25collusion, some sort of hidden hand at
25:28play behind this. Again, if these were
25:30homicide if this were homicide, because
25:33Epstein had tons of potential enemies,
25:35relatives of his victims, which are
25:37sadly probably the least threatening
25:39because they will tend to have the
25:41smallest amount of
25:43state-level influence and ungodly
25:45amounts of money. So,
25:47he also had those powerful associates,
25:49including, of course, Prince Andrew,
25:51Prince An- Prince No Sweat Andrew. And
25:55they may have wanted to silence him
25:56before he revealed any damning
25:58information about their own involvement
26:00in his sex ring.
26:02They're also possible intelligence
26:04organizations using Epstein as a part of
26:07an elaborate honey trap operation to
26:09secure leverage over political
26:12industrial elites. Again, that's not
26:14proven, but I think that's the first
26:16place a lot of our minds went post post
26:19death. At this point, each of these
26:22groups we just described could have a
26:24motive.
26:25If again Epstein was murdered, but how
26:28could we if that's the case, how could
26:30we figure out the most likely culprit?
26:32For some, the answer can be found by
26:35approaching this through an entirely
26:37different angle.
26:39And asking ourselves not
26:41who killed Jeffrey Epstein,
26:44but asking ourselves who killed Robert
26:47Maxwell.
26:48What are we talking about?
26:49We'll tell you after a word from our
26:51sponsor.
26:53Mhm.
26:58Here's where it gets crazy. So,
27:01Ghislaine's father, Robert Maxwell, who
27:03we talked about a little bit at the top
27:04of this show, he's a media tycoon. He
27:07went missing on November 5th, 1991.
27:12He was 68 years old. He was last seen on
27:14his yacht named the Lady Ghislaine at
27:184:25 a.m. local time where he was.
27:22And after a bit of searching and
27:25attempts to locate him, his body was
27:28found nude in the Atlantic Ocean.
27:31And this was just off of the Canary
27:33Islands where his yacht was found and
27:35his body was discovered. The official
27:38conclusion
27:39from an inquest held in December of 1991
27:44found that his death was the result of a
27:47heart attack in conjunction with
27:49accidental drowning. Essentially, that
27:52he was nude urinating off the side of
27:55the vessel as he often did. There it is.
27:58From yeah, as noted by several, it's not
28:01conjecture, it's noted by several people
28:03throughout his life.
28:05Uh and that while he was in this act, he
28:09fell overboard. Whether it was from
28:10staggering from the heart attack or
28:13whether he slipped, the railing here is
28:17wire on this yacht and he's uh he's a
28:20pretty large man. He's pretty top heavy,
28:22so gravity is working against him if he
28:24tilts, you know, too far forward.
28:27But here's the thing. Three pathologists
28:29were unable to agree on the cause of
28:33death. Uh you'll also see that Maxwell
28:35did not have serious
28:37heart conditions. Uh he also he didn't
28:40seem to have serious lung conditions,
28:42though he did have earlier lung
28:44operations. They're just saying it's
28:46it's not as if there were a ticking
28:48cardiac time bomb.
28:50So, murder was ruled out by the judge.
28:52Suicide was also kind of taken off the
28:55board. One of his sons also said, you
28:58know, I don't think my old man would
29:00take his own life. It wasn't in his
29:02makeup or his mentality.
29:03And it was his yacht and he frequently
29:06urinated off the side.
29:08Um and if through toxicology reports
29:10they didn't find that he was grossly
29:12intoxicated, drunk, or you know, on some
29:14other
29:15substance that would cause him to lose
29:17his footing easily. Uh I don't know. If
29:19it just feels weird.
29:21Feels very weird. And
29:23they proceed with the funeral. His
29:26funeral is a huge event. We mentioned
29:29that memorial
29:31service in New York, right? At the Plaza
29:34Hotel. But his actual funeral takes
29:37place in Israel. He's the funeral is
29:41attended by the prime minister,
29:44by the president, by at least six former
29:48and currently serving heads of Israeli
29:50intelligence, and then politicians from
29:53across the domestic political spectrum
29:56there, including the opposition party.
29:58He's buried on the Mount of Olives in
30:00Jerusalem. This is This is a huge
30:02affair. And of course, yes, it makes
30:05sense that it would be a huge affair
30:08because of his stature in the media
30:11industry.
30:13However, it is
30:16the guest list is unusual. Like Rupert
30:19Murdoch, for instance, might not might
30:22have a ton of celebrities at a funeral.
30:24Um might have some politicians he was
30:27friends with, but would he have the
30:29current president? Would he have prime
30:32ministers? Would he have like the head
30:33of the NSA or the FBI or the CIA there
30:37as well? Just to
30:39make sure he's in the grave, you know?
30:41Yeah, maybe that maybe that's what it
30:43is. Just to ensure
30:45to do the whole wake thing and just
30:47watch him for a while and then all
30:48right. All right. We'll let him go. But
30:51but you're right that
30:52and we we won't know until
30:55until Murdoch goes what happens with
30:57with his funeral. But
30:58not wishing death on anyone.
31:00No, no, no, no, no. No, it's just
31:03it it is the intelligence thing
31:06is what makes me
31:08wonder. Not necessarily the heads of
31:09state. It's the intelligence side. Just
31:13hm. I I I want to say too, there's a lot
31:15of parallels here between the Epstein
31:18death and this death in that, you know,
31:21Epstein also didn't strike anybody that
31:24knew him as the type that would have had
31:26the wherewithal to kill himself under
31:29any circumstances, you know? It takes a
31:31certain amount of uh what's the word?
31:34Bravado and kind of like
31:37any interview you hear with Epstein,
31:38he's always talking about how he knows
31:40himself. He uses the fact that he has a
31:43secret island to explore all of the
31:46things that it means to be me. And, you
31:48know, he talks like someone with a lot
31:50of with very self-possessed uh that I
31:52don't really buy would have done that.
31:55And this other Maxwell seems to have a
31:57very similar character.
31:59Oh, sure. Yeah. I
32:01Here's Here's the thing.
32:03So,
32:05the there are all these pieces that we
32:08have to add to our painting here.
32:11Years later, years after his death,
32:13after the official conclusions, etc.
32:17In 2007, there's this production crew.
32:19They're researching a biopic for BBC and
32:23it's on Maxwell. It's called in a burst
32:25of creativity Maxwell.
32:27And they found uh a suitcase
32:31in the possession of one of his security
32:33guys. This suitcase contained a bunch of
32:37tapes
32:38because
32:40in the time leading up to his death, he
32:43had become paranoid and he had started
32:46wiring the offices illegally of his
32:49employees and various associates the
32:52same way that like Nixon obsessively
32:54recorded everything.
32:56So, that's a strong indication that he
32:59appeared to believe trouble was on the
33:03horizon. But why?
33:05Yeah, right. Good question, Matt. That
33:08brings us to his other two careers, I'd
33:12like to call them. Because you see, in
33:13addition to being a media mogul
33:17it turns out that Maxwell had not one,
33:19but two other career pursuits. First,
33:22he was making a living as a thief. After
33:25his death, when all this stuff came to
33:27light
33:28everybody changed their tune about
33:30Robert Maxwell. It was only a couple of
33:32months, too, uh after he died where a
33:35bunch of banks, several banks, came
33:38forward and they were frantically
33:40calling
33:41on some loans that had been taken out.
33:44And
33:46one of them had to do with the pension
33:49for the companies that he had started,
33:51that he was running. You see, they come
33:53to light that Maxwell had been using or
33:56had used already
33:58hundreds of millions of pounds
34:01from his various companies' pension
34:02funds to shore up shares of the Mirror
34:05Group in an attempt to save the
34:07organization from bankruptcy. There were
34:09articles in papers just before his death
34:12that were calling him the man that saved
34:14the Mirror, the the guy that had somehow
34:17come up with all this money to to prop
34:19it up to prop up the Mirror Group and to
34:21make it okay for all the employees. But
34:23what he'd actually been doing is
34:25stealing their pensions,
34:26a four 460 million pounds worth. Yeah.
34:30And I mean, let's just think about it.
34:31Like, in the in the UK especially,
34:34senior citizens are often referred to as
34:36pensioners because that's how they live
34:40when they're older and can't work
34:42anymore.
34:43Um so, he's essentially robbing from
34:45little old men and women
34:47uh to pay back his
34:50loans. Right. However the money moved,
34:53it was no longer moving in his favor.
34:56Which just let me once again shout out
34:58the fantastic graphic novel series The
35:01Black Monday Murders. If you haven't
35:03read it yet, go read it. Uh it's by an
35:06author named Jonathan Hickman.
35:09Uh I think the artist's name is Tim
35:10Coker. But uh if you are one of if you
35:13are Hickman and you're listening to this
35:15podcast, put out Please, man. Put out
35:18volume nine. Don't leave me hanging.
35:20Have you dropped this one on the podcast
35:21before, Ben?
35:22I can't remember. On some podcast. I'm a
35:24big fan of it.
35:25great. Oh god. It's I don't even want to
35:28give you the rough description. I'll
35:30tell you off air.
35:31Really quickly, another quick
35:32recommendation. Um don't want to spoil
35:34anything, but there's an incredible new
35:36show that just hit Amazon Prime. I think
35:38you can watch the first five episodes
35:39for free, but it's on AMC Plus and it's
35:41called The Gangs of London. And it's
35:43like about this organized crime
35:45syndicate in London um that is all
35:49revolves around a front-facingly
35:51legitimate uh real estate mogul kind of
35:55situation. And there's a lot of
35:57parallels with these types of things um
35:59in that show in terms of like laundering
36:01money and uh
36:04intrigue and, you know, just like kind
36:06of uh faction warring factions and
36:08stuff. And it goes to show you how at
36:10the end of the day, like, business is
36:12war and there are no rules,
36:15uh you know, because people
36:18you get to a certain point where you
36:19just want more and more and more. And
36:21being denied that, you'll do anything
36:23that you uh have to to keep what you
36:26have and to get more.
36:27It makes me think about Maxwell flying
36:29over Murdoch's tower, you know, when his
36:32helicopter knowing Well, knowing that
36:35he's just taking that money and
36:37pull it pull it into his helicopter
36:39essentially. So, this is true, but it it
36:42gets away from
36:44it gets away from Maxwell because
36:46you know, you you find great fortune and
36:49you find great danger when you are
36:51functioning at these heights, right? So,
36:55the bottom line is this. He
36:57there's there's a bunch of back and
36:59forth.
37:00It turns out that the way
37:03the way the financial catastrophe is
37:05handled means that his pension theft is
37:09partially repaid from public funds from
37:12UK taxpayer money and the pensioners get
37:17eventually works out to they they they
37:19get around half of what they were
37:20supposed to, which can absolutely wreck
37:22your life in retirement. Is that a
37:25bailout, Ben? Is that what that would be
37:26called? Like literally the government
37:28stepping in and giving taxpayer money to
37:30bail out a
37:32a corrupt business person who stole from
37:35pensioners? It kind of is. Uh there's
37:38this public-private
37:40cooperation that occurs. The pension
37:42funds get replenished with money from
37:45two banks, Goldman Sachs,
37:47Shearson Lehman and the British
37:50government. And it gets uh supported by
37:53a surplus
37:55taken by the government of like 100
37:59million pounds. So,
38:02so that means that yeah, the British
38:05taxpayers paid for part of this guy's
38:07crimes, but that's still not enough to
38:10save the company
38:11or even save all the the entirety of the
38:13pensions. So, the Maxwell companies file
38:15for bankruptcy in 1992. So, this is all
38:18for nothing essentially.
38:21It was to staunch the wounds. Yeah, it
38:23didn't save the company, which was
38:24Maxwell's aim, uh but it did at least
38:27give those people some of their pension
38:29back. Uh Well, I I just mean the
38:31robbing. Like like the stealing of the
38:33pension funds was for naught because it
38:35didn't even ultimately accomplish the
38:37goal that he was hoping, which is to
38:38keep the company from filing for
38:39bankruptcy.
38:41No, yeah. Yeah. And And you know, he's
38:43dead when the company files for
38:45bankruptcy. He's passed on.
38:47Uh his One of his sons, Kevin Maxwell,
38:50is later declared bankrupt with debts to
38:53the tune of 400 million pounds. This
38:56makes him This gives him the dubious
38:59distinction of being the most bankrupt
39:01person in the United Kingdom. So, that's
39:04great heights and great lows.
39:06Uh they He and uh
39:10another sibling, Ian, and two other
39:12former directors went on trial in '95
39:14for conspiracy to defraud, but they were
39:17unanimously acquitted by a jury of their
39:20peers. So, that's that's his other
39:22career. That's Robert Maxwell's other
39:24career. It's proven he was a thief uh
39:27regardless of his motivations.
39:29He has a second career. It's a career
39:32that Yeah, it's a career that uh
39:35many of our astute fellow listeners
39:39knew we were going to get to. And we'll
39:41bring this back to Ghislaine in a
39:42second, but we need to we need to
39:44explore this cuz not enough people talk
39:46about it. His second career was as a
39:49spy. I am ready at this point
39:53to say, you know,
39:55I am ready to say that I personally
39:57believe this is true. In In my opinion.
40:00I I feel that as well.
40:03I'm I'm not going to say it out loud
40:05like that yet. But, listen to this,
40:08okay?
40:09No, it feels it it has a ring of truth
40:12to it, to be sure. So, back to this
40:14funeral,
40:16there's a line from the eulogy that
40:19stuck out to multiple observers. And
40:21then I'm paraphrasing here, but it's
40:24this. Nobody will ever know the extent
40:27to which Maxwell helped Israel. This
40:30could be This could be a couple things.
40:31First, people say
40:33very nice things about their loved ones
40:37at eulogies. That's what eulogies are
40:39for.
40:40Uh secondly,
40:41yeah,
40:43Robert Maxwell is
40:46commonly regarded as a hero in Israel.
40:48He provided immense amounts of funding
40:51for various industries. He was
40:53instrumental
40:55um maintaining lines of communication
40:57between Soviet countries
40:59and uh Israel during the Cold War era.
41:04There's a ton of stuff there.
41:06But the big question is
41:09was he just a really wealthy guy using
41:11his immense wealth to help out a nation
41:15that he saw as a homeland, or was there
41:18something different? Because multiple
41:20journalists, including respectable ones
41:22like Seymour Hersh, have basically come
41:24out and said, "This guy is Mossad."
41:27Yeah, and and I mean and just really
41:29quickly, like just look at who attended
41:32his memorial service. You had Israeli
41:35Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir at the
41:37time, Israeli President Chaim Herzog,
41:40and a source quoted as saying no less
41:43than six serving and former heads of
41:45Israeli intelligence, and many
41:48dignitaries and politicians, both
41:50government and opposition. And uh
41:54there's some interesting stuff that was
41:55reported back in 2013. There were
41:58several outlets
42:01that published reports that the FBI
42:03was a bit afraid that Maxwell was some
42:05kind of spy. They though thought he was
42:09a Soviet spy. And they thought he was
42:12trying to
42:13essentially use his publishing empire to
42:16send intelligence, I guess, to breach
42:18the Iron Curtain through his
42:20publications, if that if that makes
42:22sense, to go past through it. And
42:25you know, there was an investigation,
42:27and eventually they did close it, and I
42:30think that was in 1957. It was way back.
42:33But the suspicions remained in both the
42:35United States and the United Kingdom's
42:38governments. I also do want to point
42:40out, you know, intelligence agencies
42:42like to portray themselves as
42:45domestically in step with one another,
42:47but intelligence agencies have shut down
42:50each other's investigations before.
42:52They're not They're not always on on the
42:55same team. And I can tell you a little
42:57bit about what the FBI's suspicions were
43:01back in the in the '50s there.
43:03They were They were concerned that
43:06Maxwell was taking
43:09scientific journals and research, and
43:13then
43:14using his publishing empire as an avenue
43:17to translate those articles into
43:20Russian,
43:22and then communicate them to Soviet
43:25forces. So, this could be seen as uh
43:28this could be seen as conveying
43:30privileged information. That was their
43:32main concern, that he might be helping
43:34them get a technological leapfrog on the
43:37US, which makes sense.
43:39It'd be weird to use a publication for
43:40that, right? Cuz that That would be more
43:43of a slide it under a door somewhere, or
43:45Right. Right. So, I mean, that's
43:47probably part of why they eventually
43:48closed out their investigation. But as
43:51you said, there were
43:53there were still reservations. You know
43:55what I mean? This was not an Anthony
43:57Bourdain No Reservations situation.
44:00Multiple people ex- I know, they're not
44:03all going to work. We're We're live.
44:04Multiple people who
44:07uh were familiar with this case and with
44:10this his this figure in the US and
44:13across the pond in the UK were like,
44:14"Okay, sure. Maybe not that one, but
44:18this guy is up to something."
44:20And it turned out maybe they knew he was
44:22up to something because they were also
44:23hiring him to do other stuff.
44:25It's it's weird cuz he he's not just a
44:28spy for one country, right? This is
44:30true. There were rumors swirling around
44:32that he was a spy for several different
44:35countries at the same time, the USSR,
44:37Israel, and the UK.
44:40Um he was accused of having ties to the
44:42Mossad abduction of Mordecai Vanunu, who
44:47uh was a person who kind of let slip
44:50some secrets about Israel's secret
44:52nuclear program.
44:54Um and he is uh has been kind of
44:56isolated to the country, is being held
44:58there, unable to leave to this very day.
45:01Um
45:02he also alleged ties to the PROMIS
45:05affair, p r o m i s. Woah. Yeah. Yeah,
45:10yeah. And that's uh largely because the
45:13FBI withdrew his file from public view.
45:18And um Matt, you want to tell us a
45:19little bit more about the PROMIS affair?
45:21Well, I I I just can't believe
45:24I can't believe that he's got both of
45:25those, Vanunu and PROMIS software, in
45:28his background potentially. The shadow
45:30of Castellaro, right, man? Dude, yeah,
45:33it's feeling like an uber conspiracy
45:35here with Maxwell. Uh woah, okay. Uh the
45:38PROMIS PROMIS debacle was something
45:40we've done in a video on, and I believe
45:42we've talked about it. Yeah, we we
45:43talked about it on an episode fairly
45:45recently. No, wait. Did we just do the
45:47Castellaro story and not fully go into
45:49PROMIS? Yes. Oh lord, you guys are in
45:53for a treat when we do that episode.
45:55Um it's it's a
45:58maybe you could characterize it as a
45:59software battle between Uncle Sam,
46:02couple other countries, and this thing
46:04called Inslaw.
46:06Uh that's how I say it, Inslaw.
46:09But Inslaw. And it's essentially this
46:12weird thing where
46:14this company alleges that the government
46:16stole their software or at least the
46:19underlying operation of their software
46:22and then used it to conduct
46:25intelligence. Uh and it's
46:28really creepy stuff. And this guy, this
46:31journalist Danny Casolaro, may have lost
46:33his life due to finding out about it and
46:36this thing called the Octopus. That he
46:38called the Octopus. Yeah, and the rabbit
46:41hole potential here is
46:43profound. So there's this thing that
46:45started happening where people were
46:47digging into questions about Maxwell's
46:49involvement in this. And as they were
46:53digging into it, they noticed that the
46:54FBI started classifying parts of their
46:58parts of their reporting on him. But we
47:01know what those formerly unclassified
47:04material said.
47:05They said that Maxwell accessed an NSA
47:08database with info on how to tap
47:10government databases around the world.
47:13And he got in trouble for that or he got
47:16a lot of heat for that. Which is weird
47:18because it's exactly what US and Israeli
47:20intelligence are accused of modifying
47:23the promise software to do. They're also
47:26accused of stealing it from Inslaw. So
47:29this led some conspiracy theorists to
47:30claim that
47:32instead of slipping off his boat while
47:35peeing, Mossad had itself
47:39killed Maxwell because Israel had
47:42refused to bail out his companies and he
47:45threatened to retaliate by saying,
47:47"Look, I know where the skeletons are
47:49and I will shine a light on it."
47:51And that and that tracks, I would say,
47:53given his willingness to steal from
47:55pension funds. I mean, he seemed like he
47:56was definitely desperate and was going
47:58to go to whatever means necessary to,
48:00you know, stay solvent. Uh probably not
48:03a particularly smart, you know, gamble
48:05to go up against Mossad knowing what we
48:08know about them and how, you know,
48:09hardcore they are.
48:11Um but this tracks to me. I don't know
48:12how you guys feel. Well, it's an
48:14interesting thing like I'm
48:16if you game it out and you just imagine
48:19him on his yacht feeling like, you know,
48:21he's pretty isolated out there in the
48:23water both in a good and bad way.
48:26And then I don't know. God
48:29This is amazing. Thank you, Ben, for
48:31making that connection. I I don't know
48:32how I missed
48:34that connection with Robert Maxwell.
48:36Whoa, we don't I mean, we still don't
48:39That's a Hey, whoa. We didn't prove
48:40anything yet.
48:41No, I know. I know, but just but it
48:43again, like in in this world of
48:46of conspiracy, there's all these webs,
48:50right? And I just didn't realize that
48:52there was a connection there whatsoever.
48:54It's nuts, right? It's It's nuts. So,
48:56let's pause for a moment and when we
48:58return, if we return, uh we are going to
49:03start tracing this breadcrumb trail back
49:07and we'll get to Ghislaine at the end.
49:15We're back. All right. So, as we said,
49:17there are Let's talk about the
49:18relationship between Robert Maxwell,
49:21Jeffrey Epstein. There are multiple
49:22sources claiming Maxwell somehow gave
49:25Epstein his start in business and
49:27finance, whether that's through
49:28connecting him with people who could
49:30help him or whether that's through
49:32giving him money and saying, "Okay, off
49:34to the stock market with you, my boy."
49:36or whatever.
49:37And so, given the long-standing
49:41to a degree credible questions about the
49:43two men's possible involvement with
49:45intelligence activities, it's tempting
49:47and it's easy to trace the sort of
49:49invisible line, you know, like you just
49:51did, that, connecting these guys. What
49:53was the purpose of their interaction?
49:56This brings us
49:58to what I can only call the big what if,
50:00cuz we have to go through so many what
50:02ifs to get here. But, okay, first, what
50:04if Epstein was murdered? What if Maxwell
50:07was also murdered? If those two things
50:10were true, could the same organization
50:13have been responsible for both
50:15homicides? So, three big what's there,
50:19and then we So, we looked into uh the
50:21work of some journalists who have
50:24published books on on this very
50:26question. Yeah, there's a 2003 book.
50:28It's called From Bevan to Blair, 50
50:32Years Reporting from the Political
50:33Frontline. It's a former Mirror
50:36journalist, Geoffrey Goodman,
50:38uh who's writing it. And he concludes
50:40that Maxwell was murdered. Quite
50:42possibly by agents of the same
50:43intelligence organizations that had
50:45assisted uh Maxwell in the past. And
50:49we've got a couple excerpts here from
50:51the book that we'd like to read for you.
50:53The first one is, quote,
50:55"The possibility that Maxwell could have
50:57ended up in the Old Bailey, that's a
50:59jail, essentially a prison, on charges
51:01of criminal fraud, raised critical
51:03questions for a number of countries
51:05involved in the Maxwell triangle of
51:07international dealings." So, he's
51:10already there laying out
51:12the the connections essentially and the
51:14the danger. And he goes on to say, "Bob
51:17Maxwell, Robert Maxwell, on in the dock
51:20of the Old Bailey was not a prospect any
51:22of these groups, which included the
51:24United States, Britain, Soviet Russia,
51:26Israel, and France, would have
51:28appreciated. The intelligence services
51:31in all of these countries were aware of
51:32the dangers. My own theory is that any
51:35of them, or even a combination of
51:37several, could have been responsible for
51:40Maxwell's death." Now, really quickly,
51:42think about what that means.
51:44If someone with intelligence from all of
51:47these different countries who who has
51:49knowledge of the inner workings of
51:51intelligence agencies and bad things
51:53that they've probably done uh
51:56from all these different countries is in
51:58jail, he could turn on any one of them
52:00or all of them or you know, one could be
52:03the winner essentially and everybody
52:04else gets screwed. Um and that that
52:07completely checks out from a factual
52:09standpoint if in fact he was functioning
52:12as a spy or in some kind of uh
52:15intelligence aspect for these groups.
52:17Yeah. Yeah, and it's not it's not as uh
52:21crazy as it might sound because think
52:24about this. If you are if you are an
52:26agency or an organization like any of
52:28the ones named, then what you are doing
52:32is maybe less a matter of what would be
52:36considered ethical and more a matter of
52:38how you control the distribution of
52:41order and chaos. So, there's a
52:43calculation if there's any there's a
52:45homicide involved and there has to be a
52:47calculation where someone says, "Okay,
52:49how do we handle the financial fallout
52:52and what this does to the markets?" And
52:54if the calculation comes back and it's
52:56like, "We can handle it. We can actually
52:58turn it to our advantage." then why
53:00would you why would you help this person
53:02just cuz it's the right thing to do?
53:04Forget that. No, there's a very
53:06Nietzschean, I think, uh reasoning in
53:08intelligence agencies. A little tiny
53:10added detail, the Old Bailey is uh more
53:13than just a jail. It's actually the
53:14Central Criminal Court of England and
53:16Wales and you you might remember it's
53:18the building that uh is targeted as a
53:20terrorist attack uh in V for Vendetta.
53:23It represents kind of like, you know,
53:25the law in London in the UK. Um and so,
53:29he would have been potentially in like a
53:31holding cell there with all of the
53:34people sniffing around asking all the
53:35wrong questions. These governments would
53:37not want uh to have had him under
53:40interrogation answering, right? A lot of
53:42publicity, yeah. And you imagine someone
53:45in that position would have to make some
53:48kind of a deal for his own safety, Sure.
53:52right? And almost immediately. And it
53:54would have to be on the table like
53:55beforehand. You'd You'd have to
53:57You'd want to get a a judge to give you
54:00some kind of immunity, let's say, for
54:02crimes that took place
54:04in the '90s and early 2000s in Florida.
54:07Right.
54:08Right. There's a There's a There's
54:10another book that was published a year
54:12before. It goes even further with this
54:14accusation. It's called Robert Maxwell,
54:16Israel's Super Spy. It's by these
54:18authors Matt Dillon and Gordon Thomas.
54:21And it specifically claims that Mossad
54:23got rid of Maxwell after he was driven
54:25by financial desperation to call them
54:28and threaten to blow the whistle on past
54:30activities that cuz he had assisted
54:33these places numerous times. He said,
54:36"I'm going to blow the whistle on this
54:38if you don't give me the cash I need to
54:40keep my business afloat." His business
54:42is, by the way, I don't think we said
54:43this yet, all told, they were about 3
54:46billion pounds underwater
54:49before, you know, before he was. Oof.
54:52That's That's intense. 3 billion pounds
54:54down, yeah, and then you ask, you know,
54:57Israel essentially
54:58to to pay for it. In their In their
55:01claims, you know, and
55:03just numerically it makes sense because
55:07if you need 3 billion pounds or 3
55:10billion dollars, once you get to the B
55:13level of this stuff, you need state
55:15assistance. Maybe Maybe there are banks
55:17that could help you, but they would want
55:19the state involved. Maybe the Maybe the
55:21Catholic Church, but they would also
55:23probably want the banks involved. So. I
55:25mean, he was a pretty terrible business
55:26person
55:28to have let his businesses get that far
55:30in debt. That's unheard of. That's
55:32That's insane. They're They're huge
55:34empires. It's We're talking about the
55:38press, right? We're talking about
55:39newspapers, right? I mean, these things
55:41have been making so much money over, you
55:44know, for decades and then all of a
55:46sudden the bottom kind of falls out.
55:48true. That's a good point.
55:48So, I mean, that's what it was like.
55:50was in the same boat as a lot of uh a
55:52lot of publishers, I'm sure.
55:53Mhm. Yeah. And then
55:56we want to note this book, Israel's
55:58Super Spies, based on interviews with
56:01former intelligence agents from three
56:04different countries, Israel, US, UK. And
56:06according to the book,
56:09he was actually out there by the Canary
56:11Islands, not for funsies, but because he
56:15was expecting to receive a payment from
56:17Mossad, and his yacht was anchored so he
56:20could have a rendezvous with these
56:22agents.
56:23And they met him.
56:25Yeah. And in this theory, they met him,
56:27but they they didn't give him what they
56:29he thought they were going to give him.
56:31Uh to be to put a fine point on it, the
56:33story is that he got drugged and tossed
56:35overboard. But, we bring it all back
56:38together. So, we've got a lot of stuff
56:40here. If indeed these men were murdered,
56:43and if indeed they were murdered by the
56:46same organization, it always seems to
56:48point to a some intelligence
56:49organization,
56:51or if they were murdered by like a web
56:53of interlocking organizations that, you
56:55know, sometimes conflict but all got on
56:57board about stopping this guy from
56:59squealing, then is it possible that
57:02Ghislaine Maxwell, who was so close to
57:05both of these individuals, was also
57:07somehow involved in or associated with
57:10the various murky missions these men are
57:13alleged to have undertaken?
57:16I don't know. And if that's true, what
57:19does it mean for the future of Ghislaine
57:20Maxwell? More importantly, I would
57:22argue, what does it mean for the victims
57:24of the Epstein ring, who continue to
57:27fight for justice as we record this
57:29episode today? I I don't know. And I
57:32know it's I know it's a hell of a
57:33logical leap to say that there might be
57:37that some of this might like the Robert
57:40Maxwell stuff, I I think we can say is
57:42very credible. The Jeffrey Epstein
57:44stuff, I think we can say indications
57:46are very troubling.
57:48The the Ghislaine Maxwell stuff, though,
57:51it still it it exist concurrently with
57:54these other things, but it's not proof
57:56yet. I don't know. What do you guys
57:57Just dude, for for me, the alarms are
58:01all going off. And again, it it is just
58:03opinion at this point, but it feels as
58:06though the activities that Ghislaine and
58:09Epstein were involved in,
58:11specifically the filming and, you know,
58:14recording of sexual activities that were
58:17going on in all these locations across
58:20the world with powerful people, with
58:23Ghislaine's connections to her father
58:25and possible spy activities, it just
58:28it's at least
58:30if you were writing it as a fiction
58:32piece, it would be perfect. Does that
58:34make sense? Uh-huh. No, I mean,
58:38look,
58:39obviously
58:40part of the show sometimes is like
58:43interesting and informed speculation,
58:46and that certainly is part of what we're
58:48doing here, but God, if it doesn't all
58:50kind of add up
58:51in a big big way. I mean, people's do
58:56I feel like we maybe I should have said
58:58this in the Rebecca Coriam episode. I
59:01don't remember if we did. It is true
59:03that people do slip and fall off of
59:06boats. That does happen. The Coriam
59:08case, obviously, it's hard to slip and
59:12fall
59:14somehow getting around a 6-ft enclosure.
59:17But in this case,
59:19ah, yeah, there are a lot of questions.
59:22I am not surprised that these questions
59:24remain cuz a lot of them do need to be
59:26answered they they get pretty deep into
59:29the Cold War it gets pretty deep into
59:31the idea of compromise they would call
59:33it and the idea of the nature of
59:36leverage and power but
59:38really this point we don't know how that
59:40bail package will go for the Ghislaine
59:42Maxwell team while her team's reportedly
59:46doing everything they can to assure the
59:47court she's not a flight risk. And while
59:50the DOJ has even been keeping her on a
59:53strict suicide watch like every 15
59:55minutes someone comes in to make sure
59:57she's alive
59:59it's still no surprise the people around
1:00:01the world think her life is in serious
1:00:04danger or could be you know um and it
1:00:06but if that's the case then
1:00:09what has protected her so far if someone
1:00:12is behind all of this then who are they
1:00:15and what happens next? Yeah we'll have
1:00:17to find out as we get closer to her
1:00:20trial.
1:00:21Um
1:00:23cuz it feels like that won't be a I
1:00:24don't if that if any of this is true it
1:00:26feels like that wouldn't be allowed to
1:00:28continue. No I I I I agree I mean I I
1:00:30think something likely is going to
1:00:32happen that's going to prevent that from
1:00:34taking place.
1:00:35You think so do you I
1:00:37one of my questions too is
1:00:40okay obviously I think there's a lot of
1:00:43sand to the Maxwell's to the Robert
1:00:45Maxwell stuff and I'm still
1:00:48I'm still very much on the fence about
1:00:50the Jeffrey Epstein death
1:00:54but
1:00:55one question that I wanted to bring to
1:00:57you guys and I think it's something that
1:00:59surprised all of us when we were first
1:01:02looking into the Epstein case is why
1:01:04isn't there a dead hand system that got
1:01:06deployed here you know what I mean in
1:01:08either the Maxwell case or the
1:01:11Epstein case and is it does Ghislaine
1:01:14Maxwell have some kind of insurance
1:01:16policy is that I I don't know.
1:01:19Maybe she was the dead hand.
1:01:21You know what I mean? Like maybe she
1:01:23controlled it.
1:01:24Uh that's all it's all speculation,
1:01:26right? We we we actually want to hear
1:01:28from you. I'd love to hear your
1:01:30speculation, but I've also I think we
1:01:32would love to hear
1:01:34if you know something, if you wouldn't
1:01:36mind communicating with us if you feel
1:01:38safe about doing that. Um we'd very much
1:01:41like to hear what you have to say on
1:01:44this whole thing. And if you want to get
1:01:46in touch with us, you can find us all
1:01:48across the internet on social media. On
1:01:50Twitter and Facebook, we are conspiracy
1:01:52stuff. On Instagram, we are conspiracy
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1:01:57If you head over to YouTube, we are also
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