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The Genius Who Gets Celebrities to Promote His Brand For $0 w/ Ryan Chen — Transcript

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0:00For 2024, we were the fastest growing
0:02company on TikTok Shop. And then 2025,
0:04we had 5 billion impressions.
0:06>> Ryan Chen is the co-founder and CFO of
0:08Neuro Gum, one of the fastest growing
0:09supplement brands in the country. These
0:11guys have exploded over the last few
0:12years, popping off on Joe Rogan, Shark
0:14Tank, [music] and recently on TikTok
0:16Shop. He came on the show to talk about
0:18the spillover effect that brands
0:19experience from investing in a platform
0:21like TikTok Shop, how they're
0:22approaching retail, how they're changing
0:24their product packaging to stand out
0:26more on the shelf. But what I found
0:27fascinating was how Neuro Gum has been
0:29able to get their product in the hands
0:30of the rich and famous. [music] They're
0:31in with Mr. Beast, they're in with all
0:33these different celebrities and athletes
0:34like Andrew Schulz. And Ryan gave us
0:36their entire playbook on how they've
0:37accomplished that, starting with this
0:38story.
0:42>> [music]
0:44>> So tell us about this Mr. Beast video.
0:45>> Yeah, man. So Sunday, we have our first
0:48video coming out with Mr. Beast
0:50Philanthropy in a new year. So really
0:52excited. So we got to sponsor
0:55basically this like whole mobile medical
0:57clinic, uh which came out of Texas A&M.
1:00Uh and so Beast Philanthropy, I don't
1:02know if you guys know how it works, but
1:03they donate 100% of the proceeds that
1:05they raise to the philanthropy that they
1:07partner with.
1:07>> Yeah.
1:08>> So we got super lucky.
1:10I'll kind of give you the backstory, but
1:122 years ago, I got to be a part of a
1:15Beast Philanthropy video for adaptive
1:17athletes. So
1:19I got into a spinal cord injury
1:2117 years ago when I was 19 and broke my
1:24back. I was paralyzed from the waist
1:25down. And you know,
1:28through the grace of a lot of amazing
1:30nonprofits, got into like wheelchair
1:31racing,
1:32trained with the US Paralympic team, and
1:34that was kind of like one of the genesis
1:36of like when Kit was sharing supplements
1:37to create Neuro. But
1:40yeah, got invited to be a part of that
1:41video, saw firsthand what Beast
1:43Philanthropy was doing, supporting all
1:45these like smaller nonprofits that might
1:47not get the light of day. And we're
1:49like, how do we how do we work with
1:50Beast? Like how do we donate back to
1:52something like this? And so through this
1:54roundabout like roundabout way,
1:57one of our investors, Jared Smith, the
1:58co-founder of RXBAR,
2:00his president was a guy named Jim
2:02Murray, who is the co-founder of
2:03Feastables with Mr. Beast. And so Jim
2:06connected me with the president of the
2:07YouTube at the time, connected me to
2:10the guy named Darren, who was the head
2:12of philanthropy. And then we connected
2:14and we're just like, how do we give back
2:16and donate to you guys? And fast forward
2:182 years, now we got this cool cool
2:20partnership and then we're the sponsor
2:22first.
2:23>> With something like this,
2:24working with Mr. Beast on a video, do
2:26you get to think about the creative
2:28process with him or is it almost like
2:30very hands-off
2:31and he he runs with like the ideation
2:33process, conceptualize and everything?
2:35>> It's crazy cuz they have a pipeline of
2:37probably like 10 videos that they're
2:39working like on concurrently. So they'll
2:41give us a list of like, hey, we're
2:43thinking about sponsoring this
2:44philanthropy or this philanthropy, like
2:45which one kind of resonates with you
2:47guys the most? And we're like, this
2:48mobile medical like unit using like old
2:51shipping containers sounds really cool.
2:53Like, how do we partner with that? And
2:55so, well, you know, we'll give Jimmy and
2:58the team a bunch of things that we want
3:00to talk about for Neuro as a kind of the
3:01shout-out as like one of the sponsors
3:03and we just let let them rip. So we
3:06haven't even seen the final cut or copy.
3:08We've seen some like snippets of it, but
3:10the video drops this Sunday.
3:12>> What's the what's the CPM on a Mr. Beast
3:14video?
3:14>> I don't even know. So I think
3:16>> [laughter]
3:16>> So I got a deck recently and this stat
3:19is insane. So Mr. Beast in the last 90
3:22days has reached 1.4 million unique
3:25people. That's like 15% of the world's
3:27population.
3:28>> Brilliant.
3:28>> 1.4 billion.
3:30>> 1.4 billion, yeah.
3:30>> And I mean, that number just like almost
3:33like is hard to comprehend, but 1.4
3:35billion
3:36unique people have been reached in the
3:38last 90 days. So he's like 450 million
3:41subscribers on YouTube and then the
3:42philanthropy is like maybe 30, but right
3:44now they're trying to get the
3:45philanthropy to get more eyeballs. And
3:47so Jimmy and the team has made a big
3:49effort to kind of combine that under one
3:51team. So, I mean, we're very fortunate
3:54because philanthropy has been a big part
3:56of our mission statement for Neuro. And
3:58then now to partner with probably the
3:59most viral like philanthropy in the
4:02world is incredible.
4:02>> of like the ultimate brand marketing
4:04play. I mean, you're just hoping this
4:06video goes mega viral, a bunch of people
4:08see Neuro gum. Like, how are you
4:09evaluating the success of the video? I
4:11mean, assuming that it's not just a pure
4:13passion play.
4:14>> Yeah, I think I think part of the like
4:16the idea is that if this video gets, you
4:18know, 10 15 million views and we
4:20calculate that by impression. But we're
4:22also doing this really cool
4:23collaboration and you guys could
4:24probably sniff it. But it's a Beast
4:26Philanthropy tin x Neuro. There's two
4:28variations on it and it's like a
4:30thumbprint and like kind of a wave. This
4:31idea is like, you know, your action has
4:35like a ripple effect on the things
4:36around you. And it's similar to like
4:38Beast Philanthropy's like philosophy on
4:41the giving back. And so, all the
4:43proceeds for those tins go to the
4:44Philanthropy. So, we'll sell the tins
4:46for like $6 and our goal is to raise,
4:49you know, half a million dollars or
4:50more. So, we've committed to the half a
4:52million and we just want to capture as
4:53much upside as possible.
4:54>> that's awesome. And so, this isn't your
4:56first big partnership. I mean, obviously
4:58you guys have worked with, you know,
4:59people like Joe Rogan. There's a bunch
5:01of athletes that, you know,
5:03>> worked with Joe Rogan.
5:04>> sorry.
5:05>> [laughter]
5:05>> Joe Rogan has
5:06>> He just loves the product, which is like
5:07the best case scenario.
5:08>> Yeah, yeah. You've actually had a better
5:09outcome there for Joe Rogan just loves
5:11the product. But like, how do you guys,
5:13um, I think you've done an excellent job
5:15partnering celebrities, influencers,
5:16thought leaders, stuff like that. How do
5:18you all approach these partnerships?
5:19Like, find people? How do you kind of
5:21structure the deal? That sort of thing.
5:22>> I mean, one, I wrote Rogan definitely
5:24doesn't know who we are as the founders,
5:26but he loves the brand. And the first
5:29time he had dropped Neuro was February
5:322020, like right before like like the
5:34world shut down. And we had seeded him
5:37product back in I think November 2019
5:40through our buddy John Beer who started
5:41Jack Taylor PR.
5:43And we sent a bunch of product out
5:44there, you know, crickets like November,
5:46December, Jan. Or like well, I mean it's
5:48Rogan he's probably getting millions of
5:50stuff every day. There's like no way
5:51he's going to get
5:51>> is literally just full of like venison
5:53and then like random products.
5:55>> [laughter]
5:56>> And somehow I think he started taking it
5:58and he just dropped us like on the
6:00podcast with Dr. Rhonda Patrick and I
6:02just remember my phone blowing up and
6:04getting all these text messages like
6:05dude just Rogan just dropped you on the
6:07podcast and you just see immediately
6:09like the
6:09>> saying what do the analytics look like
6:11after something like
6:12>> I think like at at the time like we were
6:14averaging
6:155, 10 grand on Amazon a day we were like
6:18hitting like 7,500 grand days post like
6:21that drop.
6:23And it was never it wasn't even like
6:24here click a link below or use Rogan 20
6:27for a discount. It was just mentioning
6:28that name
6:29and that's just the power of like how
6:31big his platform is.
6:33>> So what's more powerful a Shark Tank
6:34shoutout or a Joe Rogan shoutout?
6:36>> Rogan shoutout for sure. So when we did
6:38Shark Tank it was we filmed it September
6:412019 and then we aired April 2020. So it
6:44was like right around like 2 months
6:46before the Rogan
6:47and Shark Tank was great. I think we
6:49made like a million bucks in the first
6:50like week, week and a half post airing
6:53and we'd got two offers but we rejected.
6:55So like I can go into like the the
6:58analytics of like what it is.
6:59>> the TikTok clip 50 million times.
7:01>> [laughter]
7:02>> But we were lucky that we still aired
7:04because if you don't take a you know, a
7:06deal on camera you're less likely to
7:08actually air on on the show. So we kind
7:10of just played like
7:12you know, the scenarios in our head and
7:14we're like you know what we don't want
7:15to just take a deal on camera and kill
7:16it and do due diligence like we want to
7:18be honest of like the valuation. We're
7:19just like we can't take it that low.
7:21But Shark Tank was like about a million
7:23change and then you know, using the
7:26clips but the Rogan Rogan effect is like
7:29orders of magnitude bigger.
7:30>> Yeah, that's crazy. That's insane. I
7:32mean it just kind of goes to show too
7:33like these traditional
7:35media publications, whatever they might
7:37be are just dwarfed in popularity by
7:40what's organic, right? Like a creator on
7:43YouTube, the new media is just so much
7:44more powerful.
7:45>> you look at Jimmy and Mr. Beast, that's
7:47the platform. Like instead of CNN, BBC,
7:49Fox, whatever, people are following
7:51their creators that they they want. So,
7:53they have the share voice. And so, I
7:56think when we look at partnerships, you
7:57know, we just kept sending Rogan
7:59product. We sent him like this huge Pez
8:01dispenser of his head that spits out
8:02Paxil and Rogaine. But we just try to
8:05find partners that one love the brand
8:06and that's like the absolute bare
8:08minimum requirement. We don't want to
8:10work with anybody that doesn't know
8:11about the brand or doesn't take it cuz I
8:13don't want to force a partner be like,
8:15"Hey, I'm going to write you a check and
8:17I want you to talk about XYZ. I want you
8:19to take it organically and then you tell
8:21me how it works for you." And then that
8:22makes for great content.
8:24>> When you're trying to develop these
8:25partnerships and you're trying to seed
8:26some of these bigger A-list celebrities,
8:29how are you thinking about getting in
8:30front of them? Like you said you got in
8:32front of you got to Rogan through Is it
8:34John Beer?
8:35>> Yeah.
8:36>> Or John Beer like
8:37how are you getting in front of then Mr.
8:39Beast or the other kind of big players
8:40in the game cuz it's it's not easy to
8:42get in front of those individuals and
8:44you also have to stand out on top of
8:46that.
8:46>> I think so many of these relationships
8:47are a gatekeep gatekept, right? It's
8:49like, how do you even get to Rogan? And
8:51it was just John had the relationship
8:53with like Jamie and the producer
8:55had an address to send it to and and
8:57like through luck and, you know, enough
9:00perseverance like we got through.
9:02Uh and we were just with Mr. Beast in
9:04Ghana like last month. So, we were there
9:06for like 3 days, spent some quality time
9:08with him telling him about more about
9:09the brand, what we wanted to do, how we
9:11want to be a part of this philanthropy.
9:13And now we're like doubling down and
9:14like we're increasing like what we're
9:16donating from half a million to like
9:18millions and going to the philanthropy.
9:20So, we're very committed because I think
9:23once we saw firsthand like this is the
9:25real deal. Like he's like sleeping in
9:27the car, you know, like Jimmy's not
9:29staying at the five-star hotel. He's
9:30like, "I'm going to I I'm going to drive
9:32out 6 hours round trip. I'm just going
9:33to sleep in the car tonight."
9:35And his team around him was like there's
9:37like 30 Like five of them stayed in the
9:39car.
9:40Filmed like some stuff on the sunset.
9:41I'm like, man, that's commitment. Like I
9:43I know I want to go home and shower.
9:44Like it's been a long day.
9:47Um but I just have massive respect for
9:49his work ethic. And so I think just
9:51partnerships in general like we find the
9:52right partner and
9:54I don't know, just sheer will and just
9:57finding different angles to get there.
9:59And sometimes it's not just one degree
10:00of separation. It might be like two or
10:01three. But just
10:04figuring out the angle on being really
10:05honest and genuine. Like, hey, this is
10:07what we want to accomplish. We want to
10:08work with XYZ.
10:10Like, can you make that introduction?
10:11Or, you know, and
10:13luckily people pitch it in the way where
10:15we get their attention and
10:17um fortunately we get these amazing
10:19partnerships. So.
10:21>> I love to kind of talk more about like
10:22your brand journey in terms like the
10:24channels you've activated cuz it seems
10:26like you'll started D2C. Obviously you
10:28had Amazon. You had the Rogan shoutout.
10:30Had the Shark Tank shoutout. Were early
10:32on TikTok shop.
10:34>> Yeah.
10:34>> Proceeded to then get into retail and
10:36I'd love to just kind of hear from you
10:38like, okay, what were these revenue
10:39thresholds? Like what were those key
10:40levers that you pulled that really blew
10:43the brand up during that journey?
10:44>> Yeah. So, we started the company in
10:47September 2015. It's been like
10:4910 and a half years. We're going on 11.
10:51And we've always started with D2C. Like
10:53we I would say the first two or three
10:55years we didn't have any retailers. We
10:56had maybe some small like bodegas here
10:58and there. Our first big account was
11:00CVS, then Whole Foods.
11:02But even up until like last year, like
11:0490% of the business was between Amazon
11:06or website, TikTok shop. And then 10%
11:08was made up between like 20,000 doors.
11:10Like the CVS, Whole Foods, now Walmart.
11:13But this year, I think because we have
11:15enough brand awareness,
11:18now we're entering in like the
11:19discussions with the Walmarts, Costcos
11:21of the world, you know, Sam's Club,
11:247-Eleven.
11:25But no one I think would have taken us
11:27seriously because we're building this
11:29category. So, retailers were like,
11:31"Well, don't even know where to put
11:32you." Like CVS were like, "Uh we'll put
11:34you in the pharmacy like memory
11:35section." And 7-Eleven was like, "Oh,
11:38we'll put you kind of by checkout." But
11:40Walmart was like, "We'll put you in the
11:41candy and gum section." We're like, "No,
11:42we're a functional product. Like we need
11:44to either be in the supplement section
11:45or checkout."
11:46But
11:47people like retailers are not going to
11:50like listen to us at that stage. So,
11:52they were like, "You know, we'll put you
11:53where we put you. You'll be lucky to
11:55even have us."
11:55>> And what was your cuz I mean in a lot of
11:57those different places, I think you're
11:59in a you're in a really unique price
12:00point in terms of like all of the
12:02different locations you just described.
12:04Like you're probably pretty not cheap,
12:06but like you're very affordable in the
12:07supplements section, but at checkout
12:09you're really expensive.
12:10>> Like the whole brand campaign that we
12:12have now is like dumb as gum, Neuro is
12:14smart gum. And first and foremost, we're
12:16a supplement. Like we're the only gummy
12:18mint company on a lot of these retailers
12:20have a supplement label. So, even with
12:22Target when we're getting on target.com,
12:23it was we're the first brand to have a
12:25supplement label on a funk confectionery
12:27product. It took us like a year to go
12:29through like their legal department to
12:30even get cleared.
12:32And so, when we're looking at the price
12:34point, yeah, we're much more expensive
12:36than normal gum, but if you compare it
12:37to like Red Bull or coffee, you know, a
12:39pack is like $4.50 or at, you know, uh
12:43convenience store, we have a six-count.
12:44So, instead of a nine-count, we have
12:45six-counts, like $3.69. So, it's like
12:48comes out to like
12:49less than $0.50 per serving. And it's
12:51like half a cup of
12:53half a cup of coffee and a piece of gum.
12:55So, like if you have that value prop, we
12:56try to educate the consumer that way.
12:58And it's like you're actually saving
12:59money by buying Neurogum long-term than
13:01like going to Starbucks or something
13:03every day.
13:03>> All right. So, over the last two years
13:04of building Nibbl, shipping nearly 8,000
13:06UGC ads and getting performance data on
13:08every single one of them, it became
13:10super clear. There are two types of
13:11brands. Those that understand creative
13:13volume and those that don't. The core
13:14difference was what they focused on.
13:16Brands that focused on volume plus hit
13:17rate were never complaining that Meta
13:19changed the algorithm. Their stuff just
13:20worked. And anytime we did work with one
13:22of those savvy brands, it was always on
13:24the same platform, Motion. Motion is by
13:26far the best tool to optimize your
13:28creative pipeline. Provides structure,
13:29visibility, and insights that your
13:31creative team needs to make better
13:32decisions. I like to think of it as like
13:34what meta would actually show you if
13:35they cared about your success. All the
13:37key metrics like 3-second stop rate,
13:39winning angles, formats, competitor
13:40research, it's all built into their
13:42platform so you can make quicker and
13:43better decisions. They even just
13:45launched a new AI agent Run It which
13:46functions as a 24/7 creative strategist
13:49providing recommendations to your ad
13:50account. Y'all make sure to go check
13:51them out at motionapp.com. All right,
13:53let's get back to the episode.
13:54>> Where do you have that education show up
13:56in your creator videos and your
13:58>> Yeah, the creator videos help. A lot of
14:00it's like kind of on the website, but a
14:01lot of it's trying to convey that
14:03message in that short ad.
14:05>> Yeah, yeah, like price anchoring and
14:06dollar per serving, right?
14:08>> How did you start developing your
14:09positioning strategy?
14:11>> I think figuring out the price point was
14:13one trying to be competitive with energy
14:14drinks, right? Back in the day when we
14:16were starting we were like, "Okay, well,
14:17if Red Bull is 80 mg of caffeine for a
14:19can and we're 40 mg, like half a Red
14:23Bull but one piece of gum, how do we get
14:25competitive to Red Bull's pricing but
14:27get a lot more value out of it?" So,
14:29we're trying to play around with that
14:30pricing model.
14:31Obviously, had to make sense for us
14:32margin-wise to like, you know, be able
14:34to scale up D2C. So, we're like kind of
14:37reverse engineering backwards like, "We
14:38need this margin to survive to scale,
14:41but this is still a value prop better
14:42than like, you know, coffee or energy
14:44drinks."
14:45>> But even from the beginning you were
14:46looking at the Red Bulls, the Monsters.
14:48>> Those were like our like
14:50secondary primary competitors and we're
14:52kind of working backwards.
14:53>> Not the 5 Gums as an example.
14:55>> gums, yeah. And I mean like we I think
14:57we built this category, you know.
14:59Neuro was like kind of the forefront of
15:01trying to put supplementation in gummy
15:03mint form. It took so long for people to
15:05be like, "Oh, well, that makes sense."
15:08And then when we had people try it, then
15:09we slowly built this base of
15:11subscribers. So, I think we're over like
15:13100 plus thousand subscribers up just on
15:15D2C like on our e-commerce platform. And
15:18those people are like those lifetime
15:20value customers that we depend on.
15:21>> Was there any like inflection point in
15:23the market? Cuz you
15:26This was also during the time where the
15:28human's the ATT guys were starting to
15:30talk about, for example, combining
15:31caffeine with L-theanine. Right? And
15:34there's a lot of products that got to
15:36not piggyback off of that, but it was
15:38like the more of culture was starting to
15:39get educated around health and wellness.
15:41Was there an inflection point that it
15:44was almost like the education met what
15:45you had created and and there was a
15:47rise?
15:48>> So, when we first trade Mark Nutrigan,
15:50we were like the world's first nootropic
15:52gum. That was like kind of the tagline.
15:54And then no one knew what nootropics
15:55were unless you were like like a
15:57Redditor. And Kent, luckily my best
15:59friend co-founder, was really big on
16:00Reddit and he was talking about like
16:02nootropics, our nootropics, and just
16:04like kind of talking about our launch on
16:06Indiegogo.
16:08>> Indiegogo?
16:09>> Yeah, we were on Indiegogo.
16:11>> That's almost like a LimeWire.
16:12>> We couldn't we couldn't we couldn't do
16:14Kickstarter, which was a much bigger
16:15platform than Indiegogo, cuz they
16:16weren't supporting supplements. So, we
16:18were like, "We got to go Indiegogo."
16:19>> Yeah.
16:20>> But, you know, luckily Kent and Tyler
16:22were like heavy on that Reddit
16:23community. And then we just realized
16:25it's too niche. So, how do we go with
16:27something bigger? And like energy was
16:29always exploding, right? With energy
16:30drinks. And at the time it was like Red
16:32Bull, Monster, Rockstar. Now you have
16:33like Celsius, Alani Nu, and hundreds of
16:36brands popping up every year.
16:37>> Okay, I have a question for you. Like,
16:38why are energy drinks so popular as a
16:41category? Not necessarily to the
16:43consumer, but everyone is like, "I'm
16:45going to get a random celebrity and I'm
16:47going to start an energy drink." Is it
16:48just the margin profile? Is it the TAM
16:50is so big? Like, why is it so popular?
16:52>> I ask myself that question all the time.
16:54I think the education's there. Every you
16:56know, Red Bull's paved the path. They
16:58started Red Bull in 1987.
17:00>> Yeah.
17:00>> Now everybody's like, "You don't need to
17:01educate somebody." It's like, "Energy
17:02drink? I know what it is." Um I think
17:05it's easier to get into the market, but
17:07through that process it's so diluted and
17:09saturated.
17:09>> seems so ruthlessly competitive.
17:11>> Like our angle is is like, "Well, energy
17:14drinks are usually riddled with sugar,
17:15like 30, 40 g of sugar. That's a lot of
17:17sugar. Like we have zero sugar in the
17:19product. You know, one piece is like
17:20half a cup of coffee or half a Red Bull.
17:22And people get that it like analogy. So,
17:25we kind of anchor ourselves of like,
17:27"Hey, you know how energy drinks might
17:28not make you feel good, you make you
17:30feel jittery? Try this product." And
17:32then yeah, we've had success from people
17:35just trying like, "Actually, I really
17:36like it." And kind of switch over.
17:38>> Just a pivot real quick. I think uh we
17:40have a ton of like brand operators,
17:42founders that watch the podcast. And I
17:43think you guys were one of the very
17:45first like sort of mainstream Shopify
17:48brands to nail TikTok Shop. And you
17:50know, kind of create that virality and
17:52capture the spillover. Like
17:54>> Yeah.
17:54>> A, maybe tell us the story of like how
17:56y'all got on the platform, what your
17:57first 6 months was look like, how you
17:59activated what did you say? 1,500 videos
18:02a day from creators? Like just give us
18:04kind of that little high-level summary.
18:06>> I mean, shout out to like Jonathan,
18:08Kent, everybody like
18:09making that effort to hop onto this
18:11platform cuz TikTok was exploding, but
18:14TikTok Shop was still in its infancy.
18:16And we were financing was very close to
18:19be like, "Hey, we're not getting any
18:20ROI. We're about to cut this." I think
18:22for 4 months in like early 2024, maybe
18:25tail end of 2023.
18:26>> share like those clear numbers like what
18:28you were doing in revenue, spend.
18:30>> Like November, December 2023, we were
18:32like, "Okay, well, we got to sample
18:34NeuroGum to these creators." So, I
18:35remember we had a budget of 300 creators
18:37that we're going to send free product
18:38to.
18:39"Please make a video, you know, this is
18:41like these are all like the one-pager of
18:44like what the attributes of Neuro are."
18:46And it was like January, February,
18:48March, April, like nothing. And we're
18:50just like, "We're just sending all this
18:51product free product, we're spending ads
18:53behind it, nothing's like working." And
18:55then finance team was like, "You know,
18:57maybe we should cut it." And then boom,
18:59we had like one video go viral. And and
19:02then the rest was history. Like we
19:04>> Do you remember what the video was?
19:05>> It was clipping It was clipping the Joe
19:08Rogan content talking about it. And it
19:10is like it wasn't us doing it, but it
19:12was a good creator talking about the
19:14product and then be like, "Hey, what is
19:15this product that you're talking about?"
19:16>> screening it?
19:17>> Green screening thing was really
19:18popular. Now like the TikTok algorithm
19:20has changed like you can't do the green
19:21screening. Um but then they started
19:24clipping the Shark Tank episodes and
19:26like and we just started to see that
19:27like momentum. So 2024
19:30we were the fastest growing company on
19:32TikTok Shop in the health category. And
19:34in 2025 we had 5 billion impressions. So
19:37to go from like nothing and crickets to
19:39like middle H2 of 2024 to be the fastest
19:43growing brand and then using that
19:44momentum in 2025 5 billion impressions
19:47just gave us so much of this halo effect
19:49that translated into website sales
19:51but even more so on Amazon. So I think
19:54TikTok was still a platform for brand
19:56discovery. People are like, "Oh, I've
19:57heard about it on TikTok." But they
19:59still weren't used to you know
20:02transacting on the TikTok Shop platform.
20:04So they would be like, "Okay, let me
20:05Google it, find it on Amazon." One swipe
20:07click and then
20:08>> What what were some of those like
20:10different concrete metrics? Like we hit
20:12a million revenue and we saw like a 25%
20:15boost on Amazon. Like do you do you
20:17remember any of those?
20:17>> There were some days where
20:20there were some days where we would see
20:23maybe a correlation between every dollar
20:26that we made on TikTok was an
20:27incremental 40 cents on Amazon. It's not
20:30It's not that anymore cuz of the the
20:31halo effect is not as prevalent as it
20:34used to be.
20:35>> ceiling to it.
20:35>> But when we saw
20:37there was a clear indication is like
20:39when we would have a video go viral on
20:40TikTok, that day we would have a big
20:43increase despite yeah. Cuz we would
20:45we've been on TikTok we've been on
20:46Amazon for like 9 plus years. So we know
20:49what daily averages are like. It's a
20:50very consistent channel. Plus we had the
20:52subscription base. But then like the the
20:55TikTok part was just you would see this
20:57clip.
20:57>> What are some of the formats that are
20:59that were working then on TikTok Shop
21:01and now continue to work on TikTok Shop?
21:03>> Well, I'll tell you what worked really
21:04well back then was like the clipping and
21:06the green screening. And I think I think
21:07now with like the IP stuff, TikTok's
21:09being a little bit more sensitive on
21:11violations and they're trying to close
21:12that down.
21:13And
21:14I think they know what that leaky bucket
21:16was like when you would see it on
21:18TikTok, but then Amazon would get the
21:20revenue. So, they're trying to be a
21:22little bit more siloed and trying to
21:24keep that transaction happening on
21:25TikTok Shop.
21:27So, the tricky thing right now is like
21:28TikTok is kind of a discount platform,
21:30so people want to get a deal.
21:32But then when you're so big on Amazon,
21:34you Amazon has like the buy box. So, if
21:37you price your product on target.com,
21:39walmart.com, or TikTok lower, then you
21:42lose the buy box on Amazon. So, it's
21:43almost like this math game of like if we
21:46discount it too much on TikTok, but
21:47we're getting more volume, but we lose
21:49that market share on Amazon, then like
21:51how do we find that balance? So, it's
21:53like cons it's just kind of like a math
21:54>> How did you find the balance? I mean,
21:55what was the what was the equation?
21:58>> I think what we came to the conclusion
21:59is is that TikTok is the best like the
22:02undisputed champion for brand awareness.
22:05So, for us to continue to reach new
22:06customers, TikTok is still that
22:08platform. Of course, we're on meta,
22:10we'll do stuff on Instagram, but TikTok
22:12is the king. And so, when we have like
22:14brand campaigns with TikTok, we'll
22:16participate in it, but we're very
22:18sensitive with the team up front like
22:20this is the most that we can discount
22:21and you can do further couponing or
22:23whatever on your back end, but this is
22:25the lowest price that we can advertise
22:26without messing up our Amazon business.
22:28So, it's like being in constant
22:29communication. And I would say
22:32shout out to the TikTok team because
22:33then we have this like internal
22:35relationship that we have that we don't
22:37have with Amazon, even though Amazon's
22:38much bigger channel. Like we can we
22:40we're on like large groups
22:42with like our direct account managers
22:44and like the head of health on TikTok to
22:47be able to like help troubleshoot some
22:49of the issues that we have. So, being
22:50able to have that constant like point of
22:52contact makes it makes a huge
22:54difference.
22:54>> I mean, that that's always like one of
22:55the biggest questions any brand has is
22:57like they're at least somewhat aware
22:59that TikTok is this discount platform.
23:01They're at least somewhat aware that
23:02it's a brand awareness pro- like
23:04platform, but at the same time they're
23:05like, "Okay, well, do I go 30% off here
23:08and then like I need to recoup like an
23:10extra 8% a day on Amazon like just kind
23:13of building out that equation is such a
23:16challenge for people when they're in the
23:18dark.
23:18>> 100%.
23:19>> Obviously, you have a lot of like
23:20historical data now on TikTok Shop, so
23:22you can make much more educated
23:23decisions, but
23:24>> say there would be certain brand
23:26campaigns that we did with like, you
23:28know, uh the spring campaign or um like
23:32the new flavors we launched exclusively
23:33on TikTok like December 2024, like the
23:36wintergreen spearmint flavors that we
23:37had.
23:38That we launched exclusive on TikTok for
23:40like a month and we were promoting it
23:42and we're discounting it way more than
23:43we can even discount on a website cuz
23:46like TikTok would then have subsidies,
23:47right? They'll be like, "Hey, like you
23:49put in this much ad dollars, like we'll
23:51help subsidize and cover some of that
23:52cost." Or else like we would be losing
23:54money if we were to do that same pricing
23:55on D2C. So, I think those days are
23:58starting to dwindle down cuz TikTok
24:00needs to make money as a platform, but I
24:02think we got lucky to ride that wave,
24:04but I still see new brands popping up. I
24:06see new brands popping up every week
24:07that go viral. Now it's a matter of like
24:10do you have a strong enough supply chain
24:11to be able to like, you know, ride that
24:13momentum cuz I've I've seen companies go
24:16viral and then they can't keep up with
24:17the supply and then the demand fades and
24:19they make the supply and then, you know,
24:21>> Now, y'all already know we are super
24:23skeptical on this show about most AI
24:24tools promising the world. They have
24:26flashy demos, huge promises, and
24:28ultimately under-deliver. But, I do have
24:30to tell you about one that has blown me
24:31away and saved my team countless hours
24:33of time and that's Rich Panel. Imagine a
24:3524/7 customer support engine that
24:37handles all of your tickets seamlessly,
24:39escalates anything requiring human
24:41intervention, and here's the best part,
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24:45Their onboarding process is frankly one
24:46of the craziest things I've ever seen.
24:48You input your brand and within 15
24:50minutes it has full context on the
24:51latest drops, product information, and
24:53plugs into all of your apps. That's not
24:55even to mention the cost savings.
24:57They're like three times more affordable
24:58than their competitors. I couldn't
25:00recommend this enough. So, if you're a
25:01brand looking to turn support into an
25:03asset, go check out richpanel.com and
25:05tell them we sent you. Talk about the
25:06parallel path between like your
25:08explosion in popularity, retail
25:09interest, and then like reaching mass
25:12retail now. The Rogan thing happens, the
25:15brand is blowing up. The TikTok shop
25:17inflection point. When were retailers
25:19knocking on the door, and then when did
25:21that flip to now you're a darling in
25:23retail, and they're like, "How do we get
25:25you into Costco in some bundle, some
25:27big-ass like Neuro Gum Pez dispenser
25:29with a Joe Rogan head on it?"
25:30>> I think
25:32I mean, we've been knocking on We've
25:33been working on Costco for a while,
25:35like, you know, a couple years, but
25:37timing wasn't right. Also, we weren't
25:39dialed in on supply chain yet to be able
25:41to handle Costco.
25:43But, I would say, you know, 6 years ago
25:45with the Joe Rogan Shark Tank, we had
25:47like low single digits, like you like US
25:50brand awareness. Like, unaided brand
25:51awareness would be like, you know, 3 4%,
25:54so maybe 3% of the country would know
25:55what Neuro Gum is, or maybe have heard
25:57about it. Now, fast forward, we're like
26:0016%.
26:01And it's like we became orders of
26:03magnitude higher, and I would attribute
26:05that to TikTok.
26:06Um so, it was like not the content
26:08wasn't new. It was like taking the Rogan
26:10Shark Tank, and then founder content did
26:12really well.
26:13And so, that like TikTok was a huge
26:15change. So, then now when you had 16%
26:17compared to 3%, there's a higher chance
26:19that retailers and the buyers have heard
26:21about us. So, they're like, "You know,
26:23my neighbor takes this, or my kids take
26:24this.
26:25Um or I really love this product. I just
26:28don't know where to put you on shelves."
26:29But, I think, you know, in the 10 and
26:301/2 years, we have a lot of data on CVS,
26:33Whole Foods data, now Walmart data. And
26:36so, now retailers are coming in like,
26:37"Hey, we could put you here." And then
26:39it's like we went We would go from like
26:41normally opening an account with a
26:43couple hundred stores to now like
26:447-Eleven will be in 6,500 stores like
26:46off the gate. You know, Casey's like
26:48from zero to 2,500 doors like out the
26:50gate. So, I think it's just a
26:53combination of timing and luck and
26:55getting like the retailers confident
26:58enough to where okay, I've heard about
27:00this brand, I've tried it, I like it.
27:02I've also seen the data and I'm willing
27:03to take that bet on you guys.
27:04>> How was your marketing budget allocation
27:06shifted from performance to brand as
27:09you've entered more doors and like grown
27:11in revenue?
27:12>> I think it's a proxy cuz as we've
27:14increased subscription revenue, we have
27:16kind of this baseline. So, we know if we
27:18pull 100% of marketing, we have a steady
27:20business.
27:21And so as we're able to pull some of
27:23that e-commerce into retail. So, this
27:24year
27:25you know, our focus is to be maybe 35
27:2740% of our total revenue into retail, we
27:30have to pull a lot of that into like
27:31retail spend. So, for us to launch
27:34Walmart in like almost almost
27:36nationally, it's a huge investment up
27:39front. And it's a huge invest- an
27:41investment up front before getting that
27:42like initial PO paid. So, we're kind of
27:45moving budget allocation. So, it's a
27:47constant discussion cuz e-commerce is
27:49like, "Well, like we have certain KPIs
27:51we want to hit."
27:52But as a team, we have a a a total
27:55revenue goal. It doesn't matter where
27:56the revenue is coming from. So, because
27:58retail is the big bet for us this year,
28:00we're just moving allocations around to
28:02support retail.
28:03>> What's kind of like your spend breakout
28:04by channel?
28:05>> And what's the goal for each channel as
28:06uh that then I'm curious about? Like are
28:08you looking at TikTok and be like,
28:09"Okay, this is going to be more of our
28:11awareness or driving foot traffic.
28:12Instagram, we're looking at it for this.
28:15Influencers partnerships we're hoping
28:17does X."
28:17>> I mean, we use so many of these data
28:19platforms to kind of calculate like
28:21individual ROAS per channel, but like
28:24the best way to look at it and my
28:25recommendation is to just look at it as
28:27like e-commerce as a whole. Because if
28:29TikTok is your brand awareness play, the
28:31ROAS might not be there. But if you pull
28:33back from that, then you'll see your
28:34ROAS go down on Amazon. So, I think it's
28:37best if you're on multiple channels,
28:38website, Amazon, TikTok, maybe even
28:40Whatnot, just looking at it as a
28:42combined entity.
28:44Um but retail is a is a wild card. We're
28:46still trying to figure that part out.
28:48But some someone like Walmart is like
28:50here you're going to enter this store.
28:51You're going to have to put half a
28:52million dollars minimum to support this
28:54ad credit.
28:55It It's like a pay-to-play. Unless you
28:57put in that half a million dollars,
28:58they're not going to also give you that
28:59end cap. Yeah, it's crazy.
29:00>> same with like Roundy's at Target.
29:02>> Yeah, Roundy's exactly exactly.
29:05>> But you pay to play.
29:06>> say that.
29:06>> If you If you paid I think when you paid
29:09to play, then they'll also the buyers
29:11want to see like okay you're investing
29:13in this platform. We'll have like a
29:14Times Square billboard coming out with
29:16our friends who's like hooking us up
29:17with some spots and like if the buyers
29:20see that they're like oh you guys are
29:21doing out of home advertisement that's
29:24going to also drive to Walmart.
29:26And you know we're working with a couple
29:27big celebrities like you know Andrew
29:29Schulz is a celebrity partner, Yuki
29:31Tsunoda the Formula 1 driver for Red
29:32Bull, you know Jimmy like we're going to
29:35be like hey can you push some content
29:37that says like we're going to be at
29:38Costco Walmart. Send those clips to the
29:40buyers and be like hey we're getting
29:41some of the biggest celebrities in the
29:42world to talk about how to buy Neurogum
29:44but at your stores. So all these things
29:46like add up incrementally and I think it
29:48comes down to like just a good
29:49partnership on both sides but also the
29:51relationship.
29:52>> I mean
29:53we have the product right here. We can
29:55see it in the wide shot. We'll put that
29:56on camera like you guys just kind of
29:58went through a big packaging brand
30:00refresh because of this retail.
30:02>> to say it's cuz of retail.
30:04>> A big part of it was retail.
30:05You know our current packaging I think
30:07looks great simple but I think we just
30:09stepped it up. It looks a lot cleaner.
30:11Just you know it allows us to expand a
30:12lot more in terms of like product
30:14offering and flavors.
30:16So before we had the flavor represented
30:18as a color but we're like if we expand
30:19more flavors we're going to run out of
30:20colors.
30:21So what we did instead is like we picked
30:24the set color for that function. So if
30:26memory and focus is this like light blue
30:28>> Yeah, you want to create the association
30:29with the benefit.
30:30>> Yeah, and then the energy one's always
30:31going to be this like like our neuro
30:33blue and then from there we have like
30:35the sub like subset colors that
30:37represent the flavor. So peppermint,
30:38spearmint, cinnamon,
30:40uh wintergreen. So we had that just like
30:44like almost like design psychology. And
30:46then now that we have this like format
30:47and process, it's going to allow us to
30:48expand more more functions along the
30:50way.
30:51>> I think there's some things to pay
30:52attention to as well where this feels
30:54like a supplement.
30:55>> Yeah. Yeah, like just from overall
30:57packaging is standing out in a
30:58supplement.
30:59>> Yeah.
30:59>> Um, it pops out, too. I think I yeah,
31:02our team did an amazing job with the the
31:04packaging.
31:04>> Like you put this next to, for example,
31:06like you could put this next to you know
31:07the company Seed?
31:08>> Seed probiotic?
31:09>> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
31:10>> It's like it's a green pill.
31:12>> Green pill. But it's like almost like
31:13the same pack like not same packaging,
31:15but again, like it just it fits on the
31:17shelf with a with a supplement brand,
31:19which going back to your positioning is
31:21is key.
31:22>> I'm about to take this one and just lock
31:23in so hard for us this episode.
31:25>> This one's all right. I do I love the
31:26memory and focus product because for me,
31:28ironically, I'm caffeine sensitive, even
31:30though it's, you know,
31:31>> No, insanely ironic.
31:32>> Well, that's why the L-theanine's in
31:34there.
31:34>> So, we have the L-theanine, but then the
31:35memory and focus one uses 50 mg of like
31:37clinical-grade ginseng. So, it's called
31:40>> Cereboost. Tastes so good.
31:41>> It's really good.
31:43200 mg a day, clinically shown to
31:45improve working memory. So, the the
31:47company that we license this uh, ginseng
31:50from has done a ton of research behind
31:52it. It's our most expensive active
31:53ingredient.
31:54>> How do you test products?
31:56>> All science-based. So, um, I mean, for
31:59us to do a product and launch in the
32:00market, at least takes like a a year in
32:02R&D, at least. And so, like we have to
32:04look at all the the active ingredients,
32:06where we're sourcing it, if there's any
32:07claims. So, this instead of like a
32:09normal ginseng, the Cereboost one, we do
32:11a lot of data and analysis on like this
32:13company, how they're sourcing it, the
32:14papers.
32:15And then of of course, we have to put it
32:17in the product and see if it
32:18>> clinical trials?
32:20>> Uh, we did a white paper study with
32:21Harvard MIT back in 2020. Um, but we
32:24haven't done any other formal clinical
32:25trials.
32:26We would love to, though.
32:27>> I'm uh, I'm super curious. I mean, like
32:29so, obviously Grüns just got acquired by
32:31Unilever. And I mean, probably one of
32:34the biggest like mafia-ruled rackets of
32:37all time is like what Mars has in
32:39distribution and you know with Hudson
32:41News and everything like the gum world,
32:43right? Like five gum, Juicy Fruit,
32:44whatever. I don't think we've really
32:45seen a lot of disruption
32:47on that shelf in decades. I mean five
32:50gum was probably the most recent that I
32:52actually like have
32:52>> and that was more like a packaging play.
32:54>> Yeah, yeah, and they did like I mean
32:55they were like crushing the brand those
32:57ads in like '06 were going crazy.
32:59>> The five senses. Yeah, they did a really
33:01good job.
33:02>> But um
33:02>> And it broke into like middle school and
33:04high schools. Like it was like this
33:05assembly in in middle school. I remember
33:07so like
33:07>> You had a razor? You were chewing five
33:08gum?
33:09>> Yeah.
33:09>> You know, you were on the playground
33:11>> Yeah.
33:11>> going crazy.
33:12>> Motorola razor, you had T-Mobile
33:14Sidekick 5 and and some five
33:16>> You're talking about how you were
33:16shaving for the first time.
33:18>> a Sidekick. You might have a Sidekick.
33:19>> Yeah, yeah, Blackberry if you're lucky.
33:21Um but like M&A in this category like is
33:25is the well, and I mean share whatever
33:27you're comfortable with, but like is it
33:29going with a Mars? Is it going with
33:31someone like that or is it coming after
33:34them because obviously they have the
33:36distribution locked in, but you're kind
33:38of in the supplement category like
33:39>> That would be like the logical choice. I
33:42mean, without going into too much detail
33:44like we had talked to some of the
33:46biggest energy drink like family offices
33:49in the world to talk about a partnership
33:51or an investment. And then we looked at
33:54like your traditional
33:55kind of like CPG holding companies, too.
33:58And then you know, we found an amazing
33:59partner that owns and runs our gummy
34:01mint manufacturer and that felt like the
34:03right play for us cuz we wanted to be
34:05more bit vertically integrated. We
34:07wanted to be able to control the supply
34:08chain. Um Mars and Wrigley I think, you
34:11know, as like a private company,
34:12incredible incredibly well run. Um
34:15Daniel Lubetzky, who's one of our
34:16friends and mentors
34:17>> Yeah, yeah. Hi Mark.
34:18>> Hi, founder of Kind Bar.
34:20He's now like the main judge on Shark
34:21Tank. I I told this story a while ago,
34:24but you know, six years ago when we did
34:25Shark Tank, right after we aired, we got
34:27a trademark lawsuit uh from a drink
34:30company called Neuro. And
34:33like I was freaking out cuz like we're
34:34on a high from the Rogan and Shark Tank
34:36content and now like I have a trademark
34:37lawsuit. I'm going to file for
34:39bankruptcy.
34:40>> the lows and lows of business, baby.
34:41>> Literally the highs and lows and like
34:42within like the month of April 2020, I
34:44was like, "Oh my god, we're going to
34:45lose this business."
34:47And signed away basically these massive
34:49retainers for legal to like defend. And
34:51I just remember Daniel Lubetzky was
34:53like, "Hey, on the show, by the way." He
34:55was like, "If I really like you guys, if
34:56there's anything you guys need, like I
34:58feel like it will cross paths." And I
34:59was like, "Is this for real? Like is he
35:00saying it just on the show?" But like I
35:02had nothing to lose. So hail Mary, I
35:04DM'd Daniel on Instagram. And that was
35:06on a We just did a Shark Tank update
35:08episode a month ago.
35:09>> Oh, no way.
35:10Those are always fun.
35:11>> It just come We're like the I think the
35:13first company in Shark Tank history to
35:14not take a deal on camera and still get
35:16an update episode.
35:17But we told the story of Daniel and I
35:19DM'd him and I told him the whole
35:20scenario and for 18 months he helped
35:22defend and he talked to the person suing
35:24us, the CEO of the company, their legal
35:26team, our legal team and we settled. And
35:28like we own this gummy bear category.
35:30We're able to keep name cuz they wanted
35:33to bully us to change the name.
35:35But through that process, um
35:37yeah, it was
35:39insane. Like Daniel was the goat to help
35:41us.
35:42>> That's awesome. Yeah, friends in high
35:43places.
35:45>> So nice. And don't be afraid to reach
35:47out to people cuz you never know if
35:48they're going to answer or not, but I
35:50had nothing to lose. I was like, "Hey
35:51Daniel, I hope you're doing well.
35:53Uh I don't know if you remember me from
35:54Shark Tank and you said uh if I could
35:56reach out to you if I had some advice.
35:58Uh I really need your advice on
35:59something." And that was like literally
36:01like what I I texted him.
36:02>> That's awesome. He came back to me.
36:04That's awesome. What uh what's next?
36:06What's the future? Like what are you
36:07guys really excited about from, you
36:09know, I mean you've always been kind of
36:11ahead of the curve, you know? So is it
36:12live shopping? Is there like new
36:14incremental categories in marketing that
36:16you're excited about? Share
36:17>> I think for us this year is
36:18distribution.
36:19>> Yeah.
36:20>> Like I we did a really good job kind of
36:22educating consumers
36:24um in like the 16% that know about the
36:26brand, but now how do we get that
36:27incremental, you know,
36:29huge pop pop size of the pie, and a lot
36:32of them just haven't heard about the
36:33brand cuz they're not on social media or
36:36our ads or our content isn't targeted
36:38toward them. So, I think when we're
36:39getting into the Costco, Walmart's,
36:41Target's of the world,
36:42that's going to change the game. And And
36:45it never gets old cuz we were just at
36:47dinner last night and like two of the
36:48people in the front, like the hosts,
36:50like were like, "Oh my god, like we love
36:52NeuroGum." And we're going downstairs
36:54and there's security outside and they're
36:55filming like a music video and we're
36:56talking about Neuro and the security
36:57guard like with like an armored like
36:59armored vest pulls out like literally
37:01>> You think he's pulling out a gat?
37:02>> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was like,
37:03"What are you pulling out?" It was like
37:04literally like a random container and
37:06we're like, "That's not NeuroGum." He
37:07opens it and it's like pack of like
37:09pieces of NeuroGum that he pops in there
37:11because like he wanted like a different
37:12packaging to fit in his pocket.
37:14>> Yeah.
37:14>> And so, it's like that will never get
37:16old for us. And so, like how do we do
37:18that and just continue to grow as a
37:19brand cuz
37:21our dream is like what Red Bull did to
37:22create the energy energy drink category.
37:25Like we want to be the Neuro wants to be
37:28the the category leader.
37:29>> Functional tablet.
37:30>> Yeah, functional gum and mint, so that's
37:32the dream and the goal. And
37:34you know, we've been at it for 10 and
37:351/2 years. I I'd say the next 10 years
37:37are going to be really interesting for
37:38us.
37:38>> Nice. That's awesome, man. Well, thanks
37:40so much for coming on the pod. Dude,
37:41thanks for having me, man. Yeah, that
37:43was awesome. So,
37:45we definitely could. I'm going to keep
37:46trying to pry more into the into the
37:48business though. Well, cool. Uh tell
37:50them where we can find you. I mean, I
37:51think everyone knows, but go buy
37:52NeuroGum on Amazon or where do you want
37:54them to buy it?
37:55>> Do you want retail? I think
37:56>> I think you want that retail the retail
37:57push right now.
37:58>> Um well, check us out at
37:59www.neurogum.com.
38:01Uh Amazon, make sure you buy from our
38:03like actual like NeuroGum page. And then
38:07TikTok shop, if you buy from our page,
38:09like you're not going to get a lot of
38:10these fake sellers cuz we've been
38:12getting a lot of people trying to
38:13imitate us, like literally copy our
38:14brand. So, if you go with our branded
38:17page, like you'll get the real thing.
38:19And
38:19at retail, CVS, Whole Foods, and then
38:21Walmart, and then soon Costco.
38:23>> Nice, and follow you on Instagram?
38:25>> Yeah, Instagram just Neurogum.
38:26>> Okay, all right.
38:27>> Awesome. Thank you guys.
38:28>> Thanks for coming, man.
38:29>> Thanks for coming. Appreciate it.
38:32>> [music]

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