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The Future of Animism: Interview with Graham Harvey — Transcript

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0:00[Music]
0:09Thank you very much for uh for joining
0:12me for this talk. Professor Graeme
0:14Harvey uh from the Open University.
0:17>> That's right. um and probably one of the
0:24most influential people in bringing
0:27animism on the back on the academic
0:31agenda. I think that would probably be
0:33the right thing. Thank you so much for
0:36taking the time to talk with you talk
0:38with me here and yeah, welcome to the
0:40channel.
0:40>> Thank you. It's a pleasure to be with
0:42you and thanks. It's an honor to be
0:43interviewed for this. Thanks. Well, the
0:46honor is absolutely on my side.
0:50>> That's mutual. That's good.
0:52>> Yes. Cool. Um,
0:56as
0:57like obviously you are one of the people
1:01with perhaps the the
1:07strongest perspectives on animism today
1:10in relation to academia. And that's what
1:12I would, you know, like us to to or talk
1:15about. And uh and I'm basically
1:19interested in like the relation between
1:23animism and uh and scholarship
1:27like what the place of animist thinking
1:30and scholarship today. How would you
1:33describe that? And do you see some like
1:36problems methodologically advantages in
1:40for instance seeing other than human
1:43subjectivity and agent and agency as
1:46legitimate parts of the data that we are
1:50analyzing and talking about and
1:52collecting as scholars. Was that was
1:54that a clear
1:56question?
1:57>> Yeah, very much so. Um yeah I think um
2:00in the last shall we say 20 years maybe
2:03a little longer I think things have
2:05changed quite quite a lot. So there's a
2:07number of overlapping academic fields
2:11debates
2:12um engagements which have shifted quite
2:16dramatically. I think that there was a
2:18period I mean I mean obviously we can go
2:21back to the Victorian scholarship in
2:23which animism was just a an accusation
2:26against so-called primitive people who
2:28had crazy ideas and weren't rational and
2:32so on. Okay, that's long gone um for the
2:35most part. Um but even in the late 20th
2:40century there it was it was still like
2:45um academics were
2:48still entangled with this fantasy of
2:50scholarly distance and um a modern
2:54ontology in which humans were
2:58distinctive in in some way. And then you
3:02know there were questions about what
3:03that what that distinction would be
3:06where where it's to be found. But um
3:11since things like the ontological turn
3:14um new materialism
3:17and increased engagement with what we
3:20are calling animism, but also most
3:23significantly
3:25the the the rise of kind of a robust
3:27indigenous scholarship is mostly led by
3:31indigenous scholars but also by allies
3:36and friends of indigenous scholars.
3:38Um I think things are very different. So
3:41now it's possible in lots of disciplines
3:44to to to think of uh animals and plants
3:49as having some sort of
3:53agency, intelligence,
3:55responsiveness,
3:57um and certainly ethical needs and
3:59desires, rights as well as
4:02responsibilities. So all of that makes
4:04it increasing possible to talk about
4:07animism without sounding like in the old
4:11old days going native or going mad even.
4:15Um
4:16>> so yeah I think I think there's it's a
4:18very different world for the most part
4:21that we live in now
4:22>> academically speaking.
4:24What about you mentioned animals and
4:26plants and what about spirits and stones
4:31and and and these sort of things?
4:34>> Okay. Yeah. Well, um yes, I I'm that
4:39that's I guess where the challenge is
4:41for a lot of people in including me. Um
4:44so I'm quite happy with the notion um
4:48that
4:50stones
4:52uh I mean finding the problem really is
4:55finding the right language to say this
4:58in English or any any European language.
5:01Um
5:02um do I want to say stones
5:07want something? Do they desire to be
5:10left alone or they want to speak or
5:13communicate? I mean, never mind whether
5:15they can communicate, but do they want
5:17to communicate? Do they do they have the
5:21ability somehow to signal
5:23um
5:25needs, desires, wishes, and so on. So um
5:30so it's very easy to to talk about um
5:34being respectful of stones that um that
5:40when I walk down a path um I can't I
5:44don't just assume that stones are
5:48inanimate objects there for my benefit
5:51um and I can pick them up and throw
5:52them, crack them open. I can do what I
5:54like. Um, I I want to if I want to take
6:00a stone home, as many people do, whether
6:02they consist or not, pick up a pebble on
6:05a beach um or some special place to you.
6:09Um,
6:11I kind of think we ought to ask
6:15permission somehow and somehow expect
6:21um some sign that it's okay. And maybe
6:25at some point we should take the stone
6:29back somewhere else, you know, where it
6:32wants to go or, you know, they're
6:34complex enough, but um but I have a very
6:38different
6:40personal problem with the word spirit.
6:44um that in English and I believe in most
6:47European languages it suggests
6:50um strongly suggests um
6:54invisibility
6:56um
6:58non-physical non-material reality or
7:01non-reality even it's a spirits um even
7:05for those who quote believe in spirits
7:08they're often understood to be invisible
7:12and totally different to the world of
7:15plants and rocks and humans and badgers
7:17and so on. Um, now that there's that,
7:22but also the problem that when we when
7:26you say animals,
7:29you understand that that's a big kind of
7:31umbrella category. There are lots of
7:33different animals, badgers and hedgehogs
7:36and deer and bison and whatever.
7:40And they're all somehow different
7:43um in their physical reality, but also
7:47in their way of engaging with others,
7:50their food choices and so on. But we
7:53tend to use the word spirit
7:56as if the one thing that they have in
7:59common is invisibility and other
8:02worldliness.
8:04Whereas for a lot of people who talk
8:07about
8:10those kind of beings, there are lots of
8:12different ones and we we can use words
8:14in English like elf and fairy, bogurts,
8:18um brownies,
8:21uh maybe tree spirits and so on and so
8:24on. lots and they're all very different
8:27>> but we collapse them into this one word
8:32>> and then I think we we're we have a
8:35misleading idea that they are
8:39not visible and yeah their way of of
8:42engaging with us is
8:45less empirical than other other beings.
8:48So I I know I'm kind of going around.
8:51It's very difficult to kind of say any
8:53of these things concisely. Um so I in a
8:57lot of my work have avoided talking
8:59about those beings. Um
9:02and
9:04um and then when I engage with a lot of
9:09indigenous scholarship where people talk
9:10about um
9:14Thunderbirds for example or um or Shapi
9:20that theami speak about in the Amazon
9:24and sing to and paint their bodies for
9:27and all those things. um they they when
9:33when you hear people talking about those
9:35beings,
9:37there's there's very little sense of
9:40that their invisibility
9:43is important. I mean, they're they're
9:46they're not often seen, but neither are
9:48hedgehogs. Um there are lots of trees
9:51that I don't see all the time. Mh.
9:54>> So you know um so and more importantly
10:00the Shapi and the Thunderbirds do things
10:03that are that have very physical
10:05effects. They make sounds. They hear
10:08sounds. They the Shapi don't like the
10:13smell of white people according to Davi
10:16Kapanau. um
10:18>> they they want
10:20um various smells and tastes and they
10:25want to be amused and that's that makes
10:29them much more part of a thisorldly
10:31reality than I think European ontologies
10:36have allowed for some centuries.
10:39>> Sorry, I've kind of gone round and round
10:41here. I don't know whether you want
10:42>> but it's a super relevant and
10:44interesting question but Would
10:48you have like an idea that um for
10:54instance specific concepts from other
10:57cultural contexts might be better than
11:01spirit like for instance init sometimes
11:03use uh ina uh which as to the level I
11:08understand it basically means relational
11:10subjectivity uh they also call
11:12themselves enua inuit and so
11:16Would that would it be a better to to
11:20have a word with that kind of semantic
11:23space to talk about
11:26those kinds of other than human subjects
11:28that we try to refer to with the word
11:31spirit.
11:32>> Yes. Well, I mean that that's in a sense
11:35why I've long used the phrase other than
11:38human persons influenced by Irving
11:41Hallowell who spent time with Yajjiway
11:43in Manitoba in the early 20th century
11:46mid 20th century um and was trying to uh
11:51to convey an understanding to his
11:55Euroamerican
11:56philosophical colleagues. Um so
12:01that that that phrase okay other than
12:03human and persons
12:05uh I found very productive but but the
12:10word persons is heavily freightated with
12:15philosophical notions and most people
12:17hearing that that phrase that word think
12:20immediately of humans. M.
12:22>> So then you need a long explanation that
12:24says
12:25>> persons
12:26doesn't just mean humans. We're not the
12:30only kind of person. So then other than
12:32human persons, my problem then is that
12:37when I get into conversation with
12:38somebody and I say that so for and this
12:41mean this is including people like kind
12:44of contemporary pagans, druids and
12:46witches that I talk with and heathens um
12:49they we immediately get we often get
12:52into a conversation about land whites or
12:56the elves or other beings and I go no no
12:59when I talk about other human persons. I
13:03mean hedgehogs and trees and rocks as
13:08well as all those other
13:11>> supposedly other world beings. So, so,
13:14so it means we have to have these long
13:16conversations before I can simply use
13:18the word person or I mean what's
13:21happening now is a lot of people um
13:25again indigenous scholars like um Robin
13:28Kimra
13:29um and many others are using the word
13:32kin
13:34>> so and that works very well but again in
13:38English when we talk about kin or kin
13:41kin groups
13:43uh whether we're anthropologists or
13:44whether we're going to a Christmas party
13:47um we immediately think of human
13:50relations.
13:51So so it doesn't really so we we don't
13:56really get too far without long
13:58explanations. Once we do
14:01>> then with with people who have kind of
14:04come to understand that that they are
14:07animists in some sense
14:11>> then we can just use these words very
14:12simply.
14:14>> Yeah.
14:14>> I'm kind of reluctant to adopt too many
14:19indigenous words.
14:21um partly because that's kind of might
14:25carry on the European colonialism and
14:29partly because it too would need
14:31explanations.
14:33So as you said inu can mean a subject
14:37but subject sounds again too
14:41philosophical too academic when we mean
14:45beings around us and and really this
14:48shouldn't be difficult because most of
14:51us live with cats or dogs or fish or
14:55plants in our houses and in our gardens.
14:59We go for walks and we have trees or
15:02rocks or rivers that are favorite and we
15:07say hello in some way, wave at them. You
15:10know, there's some sort of etiquette
15:12>> and and lots of people do that. um even
15:16laboratory scientists who are trying to
15:18exclude all the kind of emotion and all
15:22of the supposedly extraneous stuff and
15:26get to a the one thing that causes a
15:29reaction in a laboratory. Even they
15:32outside the even in the laboratory but
15:34certainly outside it are kin to all
15:39these other beings all these other
15:41relations. So it shouldn't be difficult,
15:45but this is the world that we live in is
15:47still a a conflict between our everyday
15:52kind of animistic
15:55um way of engaging
15:58and our desperate efforts to be modern
16:02or to be more modern. And and we're
16:04trapped in that. And that's academics
16:08certainly, but everybody else. Um, we
16:11want to be individuals. We want we we're
16:14taught that humans are more important
16:16and that the rest of the world is, if
16:20not inanimate, at least it's nature and
16:23it's there for us to extract some
16:28benefit from, whether it's coal or
16:30whether it's psychological benefit. And
16:32we need to get rid of all of that. We
16:34need to fight against that modernity.
16:38um and and say, "Okay, in in our normal
16:43lives, we aren't really modern." Um in
16:47that sense, um we should stop trying to
16:50reinforce it.
16:51>> Yeah. It it strikes me that that a part
16:55of this
16:58uh discussion should perhaps be but like
17:02the basic epo epistemology of what a
17:04person is and that that is uh a
17:08relational thing in the ground. There's
17:10this wonderful uh I think Zulu uh
17:14proverb that has become popular today
17:17that goes uh um
17:20gabansu or some something like that. I'm
17:23not sure I'm pronouncing that right but
17:25which is said to mean a person is a
17:28person through other persons
17:31>> right
17:31>> uh and
17:33like as soon as we use words like person
17:36or subject then it's kind of baked into
17:40our language
17:42the the the the modern I what what you
17:45have called the separatist agenda uh is
17:49kind of in there. I remember reading um
17:51you also uh referencing
17:56language that that the word totem when
18:01we get it into our language it becomes
18:04perhaps you didn't use those words but
18:06it perhaps it flows in the direction of
18:09we thinking about a spirit or something
18:10like that but in the anabic language it
18:14is never unreational it is always with a
18:17um a suffix or pre prefix that some that
18:22>> so you can't just say fox totem. You can
18:24say my fox totem or maybe you could say
18:27fox totem but yeah that's also relation
18:29between the totem and the fox but
18:32>> um
18:32>> yes no exactly that that um that we
18:35we've turned the word totem into some
18:38sort of symbol of human relations only
18:42human relations. So the the fox
18:44symbolizes
18:46us um especially the aristocracy but um
18:50but yes in a national you can't just say
18:53totem or dom um you can only say my
18:58totem our totem their totem and so on
19:01that has to have uh a reference to a
19:04group but
19:06>> um
19:07>> a relational grounding. Yeah,
19:08absolutely. It's a totally relational
19:10grounding and and it's a a relation
19:13that's always larger than human.
19:17The foxes in your your example are part
19:21of that clan, part of that kinship group
19:25and therefore they're to be respected in
19:28particular ways and that that varies
19:30from group to group. Um so whether you
19:34can eat them, you can't eat them, you
19:38can hunt them but only feed give their
19:41flesh or their fur to somebody else and
19:45so on. Lots of rules around the the
19:47appropriate ways of engaging with your
19:50other than human clan kin. Um so
19:57so so yeah there are there are words
19:59like that and I think um European
20:01languages are enriched by many of the
20:04words that we have adopted from
20:06indigenous communities. So totem,
20:10mana, and so on. Lot lots of these great
20:13words that taboo. I like I've said
20:16before, I don't know how Europeans could
20:19speak about um
20:23uh etiquette or problems when we didn't
20:25have a word the word taboo. Um because
20:29it doesn't mean just sacred or profane.
20:32It's a much more dynamic thing. So So
20:35yeah, our languages are enriched.
20:37We just need to if we're going to adopt
20:40indigenous words um we need to pay them
20:44respect and we need to be express our
20:47gratitude to the first speakers of those
20:50words. But but there's also a sense um
20:54that that we can have this conversation
20:57about um kind of human cultures and the
21:02way that that we and others engage with
21:06the larger world. But um but this isn't
21:11alien to to
21:15um
21:16the natural sciences, physical sciences.
21:19Um, I I've just been rereading um Lin
21:24Margalus's
21:25uh Lin Margalus and Derek Dorian Sean's
21:28book Microcosmos,
21:30which is about the evolution of
21:32microbes. Um, and that okay, we we only
21:37exist because microbes of many kinds,
21:41bacteria,
21:43change this planet to make it
21:45inhabitable by others. I mean, first of
21:48all, some of them caused the first mass
21:51extinction by excreting, out
21:56far too much oxygen, killing all the
21:58creatures that couldn't live in oxygen.
22:00And we couldn't either if it was too
22:01much of it. But and then evolution took
22:05off again and bacteria evolved to use
22:10oxygen. And we only live
22:14every day, every breath, because inside
22:17what I think of as me, there are
22:20bacteria and other microbes taking the
22:23oxygen that comes in through my lungs
22:27and making it available in my blood and
22:30then into my nerves and everywhere else.
22:34>> Really?
22:35>> Yeah. Absolutely. I thought the oxygen
22:38diffused through the membranes in the
22:40alvioles and the lungs.
22:41>> Yes. But not not without not without
22:44some sort of bacterial help. Um
22:47>> Okay.
22:48>> Wow. That's amazing.
22:49>> So there's all sorts of bacteria going
22:51on. And that's just I mean the the the
22:54oxygen be becoming available.
22:57um the nutrients that come in our food
23:01uh broken down by bacteria
23:04um and yeah all of those things and then
23:09that's the bacteria in inside our guts
23:12and bloodstreams and so on.
23:15>> But there are there are bacteria who
23:18live only in our eyebrows only in our
23:22inner inner elbow crook. Um,
23:25>> yeah.
23:25>> And you go, what would be like if they
23:28weren't there? I mean, and they've
23:30evolved with us. So, we are um symbiotic
23:34or hollowant beings. We are immediately
23:40um relational.
23:42>> Yeah.
23:42>> Multiecies communities.
23:45>> Yeah. We're communities of beings.
23:46>> Yeah.
23:47>> Yeah. and we couldn't so if I mean this
23:51that book microcosmos was first
23:53published let me check exactly um
23:581986
24:02but I thought it was earlier than that
24:05um I think there's an earlier edition of
24:07this um anyway um Lim Margalus has has
24:12been a very important scholar in this
24:14kind of field um So over 4 billion years
24:21microbial evolution has led uh and is
24:24carrying on evol evolving so that all
24:27kinds of exciting um relations act
24:30active relationship happen.
24:33>> Mhm.
24:33>> And go so we don't need to go anywhere
24:36to find other species to communicate
24:40with. We just need to touch our elbow
24:42crooks or
24:44our eyebrows and those of us with
24:47beards, you know, all the creatures that
24:49just live in there and they're perfectly
24:51fine until we suddenly apply all these
24:55deadly chemicals to them and yeah, so
25:00>> cool.
25:00>> So all of that, you know, this kind
25:02there's an animism about that. Um, and
25:05that may not be the word that those
25:08scientists want to use, but there's that
25:11effort to be respectful
25:13>> of these species
25:16who make our make life possible.
25:19>> Yeah.
25:19>> Um,
25:20>> in in this extremely literal way like
25:23our breath.
25:24>> Yeah.
25:25>> If that's actually facilitated by uh
25:28bacteria, as you say, that's amazing. I
25:30totally didn't know that. Um,
25:34I'm also thinking about like when you
25:37just referencing back a little bit to
25:40the the totem as a symbol that that um I
25:46think that I totally adopted your
25:47concept of the separatist agenda that is
25:50somehow baked into and I think that this
25:53separatist agenda tends to uh move us
25:58into representation when we think about
26:01stuff where uh like Marshall Silence in
26:04his last and I think quite amazing book
26:09really puts a lot of work into how we
26:13can flip our way of of uh
26:18understanding into into imminence.
26:21>> Yeah. uh and uh uh Tyson Yungaporter is
26:25also talking about representation uh and
26:28and and some of the problems of
26:32being in representation mode when we for
26:35for instance understand or engage the
26:36world.
26:37>> Yes.
26:37>> Um do you have any thoughts about this
26:40um thing? Yeah I I and again it's one of
26:43those things that that throughout our
26:46western modern whatever we call that our
26:50culture global culture now so we're very
26:54we we automatically
26:57convert
26:58we understand things to be
27:00representations
27:02so um so I might when I get to um um uh
27:08across a border an international border
27:11say is my passport. This is me. I so
27:14show my photograph and I say this is me.
27:18But but we hear that to mean this
27:21represents me. Um
27:24>> but in a sense this is me. Um
27:28>> so so this is deep in the the creation
27:32of the the modern ontology or
27:35epistemology or both. um that um the
27:39conflict between
27:41um Protestant and Catholic Christians
27:45um
27:47led both Catholics and Protestants to
27:51think of statues and paintings
27:54eventually as being representations of
27:57the saints or the divine.
27:59>> Um so initially there's an absolute
28:02divide between them. Um and then
28:05official Catholic and Protestant
28:07teaching is that they statues and
28:10paintings represent these other beings
28:14who are beyond those physical forms. Um
28:19and that's influenced our our way of
28:21looking at art um of any kind. So in
28:26fact to even say art
28:29>> suggests representation rather than um
28:33so when when people start worrying
28:35looking at indigenous
28:38painting or tattoo
28:42um they worry about is this art or is it
28:45something else because it's not
28:47representing
28:48>> um it is the thing so I have some
28:51Aboriginal art on my wall art Um, and I
28:55know that those those paintings
29:01are the place
29:03that in in English I would say they
29:06represent a place, but in Aberiginal
29:08languages they'd be they are the place,
29:11but so is the painter and so is their
29:14clan, their totem, their
29:17>> their emu or you know these are all the
29:19same in different shape, a different
29:22form. Um and that's I mean that's
29:25mind-blowing and I don't you know we
29:27can't
29:28>> suddenly convert ourselves into that way
29:32of engaging with the world but we are
29:34shifting that way to saying
29:36>> you know yeah um
29:37>> this I am part of this land
29:41>> um I am this land I mean
29:43>> my teeth
29:45um still have the water in from the
29:49place where I was where they came from
29:50where the the water I was drinking when
29:53my teeth started growing is in my teeth
29:55now. And you go,
29:57>> I am that land.
29:59>> Um I am the the food that's grown here
30:03in my garden is
30:07>> is me and I'm it. And
30:09>> yeah.
30:09>> Yeah. I think that one way of of moving
30:14towards that that way of of
30:17understanding and and engaging the world
30:19is to stop talking and move into
30:24ceremony. uh because
30:27um and and like I studied the for my PhD
30:33I studied and well I would say learned
30:36from actually knowledge keepers in
30:38Afrobrazilian religion and they actually
30:42practice because they they speak modern
30:45Portuguese. It's it's it's a modern
30:47language that probably has the
30:48separatist agenda in it in many ways. So
30:52they they uh uh control communication in
30:56in in a lot of ways. There's a lot of
30:59don't speak about things and uh what did
31:02they call it? Uh yeah, talking too much
31:06is a main cultural value that you should
31:10you should avoid talking too much. uh
31:13and that does not that they don't speak
31:15a lot and flirt with each other and have
31:17a good time but when when you're talking
31:19about the ceremonial content and uh the
31:22knowledge that is I would say imminent
31:25in those ceremonies then then they avoid
31:30talking about them to keep the
31:32ceremonies uh potent.
31:34>> Yes. And and I think it's no accident
31:38um that ritual and ceremony
31:43um were also deeply problematic in that
31:47same phase of early modern creation of
31:50this world. That um rituals became vain
31:56repetition and people are accused of of
31:59not knowing in their head why they do
32:02something. they don't they don't believe
32:04prop they don't understand properly
32:06they're not thinking straight they're
32:08just doing these actions. So, so the
32:11fact that many of the people that we're
32:15interested in when we talk about
32:16animism, whether they're um the Yanomami
32:21or the Inishab
32:23traditional people, whether they're
32:26animist pagans or heathens in Europe, um
32:30and so on that that ritual is ceremony
32:33is the thing that's central uh to their
32:38practice. Um, so whether it's every day
32:40the kind of etiquette of some sort of
32:43greeting to a tree or the directions or
32:46getting up and seeing sunrise, I mean
32:50it's just it's a anybody can see the
32:53sunrise.
32:54>> Um,
32:55>> and yet it becomes central to what many
32:58of these animist people do,
33:02>> whether it's a particular sunrise or
33:04every day for some people. Um, and to
33:08make to make ceremony the thing.
33:11>> Yeah.
33:12>> Um, and often not explaining it. I mean,
33:15I've been in ceremonies where
33:17>> there's been absolutely no explanation
33:19and I've gone away wishing there was a
33:21bit more. What have I just been involved
33:23in? And but I've been in lots more
33:25ceremonies where people have spent so
33:27long explaining it. But I just feel I've
33:30had some sort of I don't know what,
33:33psychological therapy or something. Um,
33:36I I've been preached that and that's and
33:39it ruins the the act, the doing the and
33:43and it it it makes me concentrate on the
33:47other humans explaining things,
33:50>> representing
33:52>> the spirits or Yeah. rather than okay,
33:56let's just let's just try this. Let's
33:59just move around a circle. Let's face in
34:01a direction. Let's touch the ground.
34:04doesn't matter what you think it's
34:06about. Um, things happen and and
34:10>> and literally things happen. You know, a
34:13bird turns up, comes nearer than it
34:15would otherwise, the weather changes,
34:18whether it's the sun comes out or the
34:19clouds come over, something happens
34:22>> when ceremony works that's bigger than
34:25humans. Um so so yeah absolutely that
34:29that that that I think ceremony is much
34:33more true to animist and broader pagan
34:39and indigenous world living than than
34:44all the books that we write and all the
34:46words
34:47>> that we try to explain this stuff.
34:49>> Yeah. They're sort of inherently
34:51imminentist.
34:52>> Yeah. You can't really you can't do
34:56stuff without doing it.
34:58>> No.
34:59>> Uh and it's Yeah. Let me
35:00>> Well, maybe that's weird oxymoronic to
35:03say or something, but yeah.
35:04>> Yeah. No, but but people try that. They
35:06they explain it before and after and
35:08they this is representing this
35:10symbolizes that and you know, no no
35:13let's just let's just do it just you
35:15know afterwards maybe.
35:18>> Yeah.
35:19>> C of coffee or chocolate or whatever a
35:21beer. Then then, you know, tell me what
35:23it is. What were you doing at that
35:25point? Because something happened and I
35:27didn't quite catch what was going on.
35:29And the next time we do it, I want to to
35:32be more fully engaged. But yeah, let
35:34let's go and do it. Come with me for a
35:36walk. Um,
35:38>> come and I'll see, you know, and I'll,
35:41you know, I won't tell you everything.
35:43You won't you might not notice that I
35:45kind of waved at a particular tree. Um,
35:48I might have touched several trees and
35:50you won't know which one was the more
35:53important one to me,
35:54>> the one that I sometimes hear
35:58talking back, you know. Um, so but yeah,
36:02let's let's go and do it. Um and um
36:06yeah, see
36:07>> there's there's a wonderful there's a
36:09wonderful moment in Maya Darren's uh
36:12divine horsemen if if you're familiar
36:14with that where she she's dancing in a
36:18voodoo ceremony in in Heiti and then she
36:24she's little by little she realizes or
36:28she snaps out of representation and
36:31realizes that there isn't doesn't really
36:33matter if she believes in the goddess
36:35Asuli or not, she is actually enacting
36:38it. And then a white darkness starts
36:40reaching through her her feet and and
36:44then she falls into a visionary
36:46religious experience where she hears
36:48like a choir, heavenly choir of angels
36:50that are singing the name of Asuli, the
36:52goddess. is a very beautiful um mystic
36:55experience and I think it is exactly the
36:58>> and this is an on an individual level
37:00she's she's fli flipping out of the the
37:03the separatist agenda and but I think we
37:07also need to think about how to
37:09culturally
37:12make that happen somehow.
37:13>> Sure. So okay so now we go back to the
37:16beginning of our conversation which is
37:18is this difficult for academics? Does
37:21this cause problems in academia? And and
37:25the answer there is okay if if I'm fully
37:29involved in a ceremony who whoever
37:31ceremony it is um as somebody trained to
37:36be an academic I kind of keep
37:40flipping back to a I I must remember
37:43this bit. Um something I need to take a
37:45note. I start getting reflexive about it
37:48and I I need to try and I'm gonna have
37:50to communicate about this to somebody
37:52else.
37:53>> Um and then I'm not in the ceremony
37:55anymore. I'm observing somehow. And and
37:59even for some of our colleagues, they
38:02don't want I mean it's not appropriate
38:07for for a scholar to get so immersed
38:11that suddenly they realize they are
38:14speaking the words of a goddess or
38:16they're hearing a badger giving them
38:19some wisdom or something. Um so so it's
38:24it's kind of really exciting then when
38:26you read people like Paul Stalter and um
38:31um and others lots of others but
38:34particularly indigenous scholars who
38:37don't they know that this is a problem
38:40for some academic colleagues but for
38:43them that that's the problem is that
38:47other people have a problem. The problem
38:49is the modern separatism and they're
38:52going so just get over it. This is what
38:56happens. The real world is about
38:59relations.
39:00Um and if it's okay for in Margalus to
39:05talk about bacterium bacterium
39:08and relations as relations and it's okay
39:12for
39:13uh Donna Harowway to talk about cyborg
39:15relations then the rest of us should get
39:19used to um saying okay things happen
39:23when we engage with this amazing
39:29multiecies
39:31relational world and we we stop trying
39:34to be individuals.
39:37Um
39:39so so yeah so so the answer to your
39:42first question really is yes it's a
39:44problem. Um, but only a problem if you
39:49want to keep reinforcing and policing
39:51this boundary between the modern effort
39:54to be separatist and
39:58supposedly objective and all of that
40:00stuff.
40:00>> Yeah. Um no I I feel that my I'm getting
40:04policed I'm getting policed in
40:06scholarship and uh but but but things
40:10are also changing and they're changing
40:12quite fast in our time and uh like
40:18we're both historian religions right you
40:20also and in history of religions at
40:23least here uh is difficult but there
40:25there other kinds of scholarship and I
40:27experience for instance that artists are
40:30the first to um to really reach out and
40:34and and and engage for instance with the
40:37stuff I'm I'm presenting.
40:39>> Yeah.
40:40>> Um artists are really um so
40:44>> artist performers
40:46>> who who kind of get that even even if an
40:49artist wants to start out by
40:52representing something. I mean, if
40:54they're not just doing here's a painting
40:56to sell or like local tourist spot, you
40:59know, at some point that they're the the
41:02deeper relation with the place they keep
41:03going back to to paint or whatever um
41:07must affect them. Their effort to to
41:11portray um to to put the world or a part
41:16of the world into a different form
41:19is a relationship. So yeah. Yeah, I
41:22think it's might also be just because
41:24artists are free thinkers and
41:29uh I think basically they're or I I've
41:32been thinking that perhaps they're like
41:34a little bit of the what do you call do
41:36you call it canary in the coal mine for
41:39>> where the world is going.
41:40>> Yes.
41:41>> Uh so I don't know if that's a good
41:44expression.
41:44>> Yeah. No, it's nice. It's good. It's um
41:46Yeah, I think you're right. Right. I
41:48mean they're they're again performers of
41:50different kinds,
41:52>> naturalists of different kinds. Um I
41:54mean okay. Um
41:56>> cool.
41:57>> Um yeah,
41:58>> let's perhaps move to the next question.
41:59It's super interesting, but I think we
42:02could have like just open one question
42:04and go on for a very long time. Um
42:08like uh
42:11you mentioned a couple of times here
42:13indigenous knowledge and indigenous
42:14scholarship and uh and there's a lot of
42:18um like social focus on indigenous
42:21knowledge today also in like uh large
42:24scale policym and these sort of things.
42:27uh and part of what I have been trying
42:30to do is kind of
42:33almost playfully actually say can we can
42:36we take indigenous knowledge as a as a
42:38as a discipline and use those ways of
42:43thinking on our own cultural background
42:45as majority persons then then it's not
42:48indigenous knowledge anymore because we
42:50aren't indigenous but the same kinds of
42:53of of knowledge is in our cultural
42:56heritage
42:57And um I mean
43:01c can I just hear what what you think
43:04about that whole project also in terms
43:08of pitfalls and promises problems like
43:13what what do you what is your advice to
43:16me like you know
43:18>> no that it's that's good uh good
43:20questions um okay so
43:24um
43:26Okay. So you use the word take. Can we
43:28take indigenous knowledge? And we can if
43:30it's given. I mean if it's offered then
43:33we can. It would be rude not to take it.
43:35Right. Um
43:36>> did I use the word take?
43:38>> Yeah.
43:39>> Ah okay. Yeah. Of course I should
43:41clarify that obviously what I'm doing
43:45like if for instance Robin Wras he's
43:47actively encouraging
43:48>> Yes.
43:49>> using her thoughts.
43:50>> Exactly. And then so and that doesn't
43:53mean that I'm taking her cultural
43:56background inab and using that but her
44:00her theories her methods. Yeah. Yeah.
44:02You know what I mean?
44:03>> Yeah. No, I understood exactly that
44:04which is why I felt confident about
44:06saying this to you if you you you can
44:10and should take if it's gifted. There
44:12are people that we know who are taking
44:16um inappropriately. they're
44:18appropriating. And there are therefore
44:21lots of indigenous people who are
44:23completely and rightly fed up with um
44:27having stuff taken, people who want to
44:29wear put on some feathers. Um I I met um
44:34I was in an event with an indigenous
44:37elder
44:38uh leader many years ago, many many
44:40years ago. And he was talking about his
44:43community living in poverty and they'd
44:46had to fight to get the the the the
44:52stuff that had been set aside for them
44:54by treaty rights and so on. Um and the
44:58community was now in a much better
44:59place.
45:00and it was very down to earth and very
45:03honest. Um, and then somebody asked a
45:06question and it was
45:11it was kind of well I think almost I
45:13think these exact words. You are a very
45:15spiritual man. How can we be spiritual
45:19like you?
45:21And I I don't know, but I'm fairly sure
45:25that the person asking this question
45:27wanted a kind of
45:29if you put some feathers on and do a a
45:32dance with sunrise and if you you become
45:36you become a more spiritual person and
45:39tell these stories about turtles, you
45:42know, get very mystical. Um,
45:47and I I if I'd been asked that question,
45:49I'd have probably been quite rude. But
45:52this guy is obviously entirely used to
45:55being asked that kind of question. And
45:57he just said,
45:59um, when you get up in the morning, have
46:02a glass of water and think, this is a
46:04new day. What good thing can I do now?
46:08What's the next question? And it's like
46:12that.
46:13>> Awesome.
46:13>> That Yeah. And that that to me is
46:16exactly the kind of issue here.
46:19>> It's also funny. It's great.
46:20>> Yeah, it's funny. And yeah, I mean, you
46:23didn't rub it in and
46:26>> um but it was also listen to me, you
46:28know, I'd have been ang I'd have been
46:30rude and cynical as I still am. Um and
46:34I'd have made that very clear and I'd
46:35probably humiliated this person.
46:37>> What are you talking about? You're
46:38probably the least rude person I've ever
46:40met.
46:41>> Uh there are moments. Maybe it's just in
46:43my head. give me time.
46:44>> Anyway,
46:46um so there are lots of indigenous
46:49people who or there are a lot of sorry
46:52there are a lot of people who've met
46:53indigenous people who come back home
46:55with a story that says this person told
46:58me go home and listen to your land, go
47:00home and find your tradition, go home
47:03and do this and you go right that's
47:05that's the thing. Um and then exactly as
47:09you said there are there are elements of
47:12our longer European traditions.
47:15Modernity isn't very deep and and we've
47:18as Bruno has said we have never been
47:21modern because we can't there is no
47:24separation between humanity and the rest
47:26of the world. Separatism is not possible
47:30in any way from bacteria to the ozone
47:33layer. There is no nature
47:35separate from culture and so on. So we
47:39can't be modern.
47:41>> We our deeper traditions which are many
47:45and various
47:47um and they are being kept. I mean now I
47:50get a bit mystical but those traditions
47:53are being kept by the trees and
47:54hedgehogs and so on. They're they're
47:57celebrating the the days as they get
48:00longer and shorter. They respond to the
48:02weather. They're grateful for what they
48:04get and so on. Uh they negotiate
48:09the the the community. So we've got used
48:13to the idea that blackbirds and other
48:17birds are individualist
48:21fighting for their territories. When
48:23they sing these songs, they're saying
48:25this is mine.
48:27But they're not. What they're doing is
48:29saying, "Okay, this these this this
48:35community that we live in, all of us,
48:38okay, there are bits that this is where
48:40I'm going to get my food and your bit.
48:44You can visit this, but not for the
48:46earthworms. They're they're for me. I
48:49mean they're they're overlapping lands
48:51and they're singing harmonies and dis
48:54discords and you know they're they're
48:57not competing individualistically.
48:59They are they're creating they're
49:01negotiating
49:03appropriate borders between the bits of
49:06this land um in very respectful ways.
49:10>> Um so
49:12our traditions do that too. our we have
49:15all these words for these other world
49:17beings, spirits, whatever we're going to
49:20call them. Uh sometimes
49:23we again have got the unfortunate legacy
49:26of the Victorians who turned some of
49:29those beings into pretty flowers, flower
49:32fairies. And no, that's not our
49:37tradition. These are dangerous beings.
49:39Yeah. Um, just pay them respect, but
49:43don't don't invite them into your into
49:46your house. I mean, that's the way you
49:47get your children, your baby stolen. I
49:50mean, don't you learn these traditions.
49:52Um, you know, respect can mean keeping a
49:57distance. So, so yeah, we have all these
50:00we have lots of good traditions for
50:03saying please and thank you and sorry.
50:05[Music]
50:07We just need to re-emphasize those and
50:09that that's what Robin Kimmer and others
50:13are teaching us that we can do bot in a
50:17respectful way. We can do
50:19>> microbial science in a new way. We can
50:22do
50:23>> anthropology in a new way. We can
50:25certainly study religions in a way that
50:27doesn't emphasize
50:29transcendence and you know all of that.
50:33So when we are
50:37thinking with for instance contemporary
50:39indigenous knowledge on our majority
50:42population heritage like
50:46I I sometimes feel a little bit like a
50:49very clumsy person being in the same
50:52situation as
50:54the beautiful actress Katherine Sitta
50:56Jones is in in some movie where she's go
50:59moving through laser beams. I don't know
51:01if you remember the scene. It's a famous
51:04scene.
51:04>> I Yeah, I think so. I can picture it.
51:06>> Which is like almost dancing through
51:08these laser beam.
51:09>> Yeah.
51:10>> And I sometimes feel that I'm in that
51:13kind of a situation when I'm uh trying
51:17to think about for instance North
51:20European culture in the way that Robin
51:22Wal Kimra thinks about her Anishnab
51:25culture, right? Or put Pawatami. I think
51:27it's a subgroup of Anishnab. Anyway, um
51:32so
51:33how how can we
51:37deal with or what can be the strategy to
51:42maneuver this Gordian knot of very
51:47problematic
51:49uh aspects that can that that are often
51:53they're so close to what
51:57to to that path that the that that that
52:00we must be on if we want to engage
52:02traditional knowledge.
52:04>> Yeah.
52:04>> Like the obvious example is is
52:09nationalists that have been co-opting a
52:12lot of this uh cultural material. But
52:14but there are many cases I mean
52:16criticizing colonialism makes a lot of
52:19white people fall into this sort of
52:20almost cockatry of having been
52:23colonized. And we and and there's so
52:26many like I I feel pitfalls that are so
52:31dangerously close to the project that
52:34project.
52:35>> Yeah. Um yes. No
52:39these are massively difficult problems.
52:42Um okay. So um
52:46obviously there are years of practice or
52:49I mean in an actor's practice probably
52:51maybe only months of practice to learn
52:54to do that dance between the lasers or
52:57whatever. Uh in the same way
53:00learning to do good ritual to move
53:03through
53:05a wood um takes time and and takes
53:10mistakes. You know we we You don't
53:13achieve perfection
53:15just because you you're you know there's
53:18this crazy idea in a lot of pagan
53:20literature. You state your intention and
53:22then you do the thing and you go that's
53:24like as if you could achieve perfection
53:27immediately just by saying what I want
53:30to do is this. And you go no. Um you you
53:34don't get it right the first time or the
53:3610th time. Um and
53:39um it's only when you realize that you
53:41did it wrong and I I can't think who now
53:45um um an anthropologist somewhere in
53:48southern Africa who spent years with
53:52this community
53:54um and he and he knew that he wasn't
53:56getting a lot of what was going on. Um
54:01and and he kept doing the wrong thing
54:04and he knew it was wrong but they never
54:06corrected him and then eventually he
54:08said something about you know can you
54:12just tell me what it is I'm doing wrong
54:14and they said well you know or why
54:16didn't you tell me and they said well
54:17you never asked and we don't you don't
54:20tell people you if you don't get it when
54:23you're there for so long it's like
54:25children you know you don't keep telling
54:27them
54:28>> that if they don't learn then they're
54:30going to grow up being antis and getting
54:32it wrong. So we we need to keep learning
54:34and we need to keep being aware that
54:36we're making mistakes and learning from
54:39them as well. So I don't know that you
54:42know we so having you know you and I
54:44know we've got a lot of a lot of
54:46resources in European cultures for a lot
54:49of this you know botanical knowledge the
54:52Anglo-Saxon nine herbs charm um there's
54:55a lot of good stuff in the hover and so
54:57on um but um but they come from a they
55:03they also come from a different world we
55:06can't we can't just like with a nine
55:09herbs We can't simply remove the
55:11Christian bits. Um, you know, we we've
55:14got to kind of learn things and do
55:17things and um relearn our botanical
55:20knowledge and we do that with the
55:23plants. Um so so yeah there there a lot
55:27of a lot of pitfalls and um I'm I'm less
55:32worried about people being offended when
55:36we talk about colonialism
55:39because
55:42European modernity is still thoroughly
55:45>> colonialist and a lot of
55:49>> a lot of what people trying to do even
55:52in improving the world um is colonial.
55:56So I think you you you briefly alluded
55:59to people using indigenous knowledge to
56:04identify a plant and then they just do
56:07the modern thing of extracting the
56:09active substance
56:12>> and disrespect the whole plant or the
56:15community of the plant
56:16>> as if it's only the
56:20the psilocybin that's important and not
56:22the mushroom and so on. Right? So, so if
56:27we're going to be going to learn from
56:29Robin Kimmer and other indigenous
56:32scholars, we need to be more holistic.
56:35We need to get away from this
56:37greenwashing and all those colonialist
56:40things. And we and we also certainly
56:43don't want to expect indigenous people
56:48to save the world and to tell us
56:51>> how get how to get it right.
56:53um you know um
56:56um
56:58>> they've got they've got other things to
57:00do with their communities who are in
57:03often in desperate situations
57:06um
57:06>> because of us
57:07>> because of us and
57:09>> you know we want to carry on being
57:11extractivist in in all those ways again
57:14from mining through to to
57:17uh
57:19psychedelic tourism and so on ICA
57:22tourism It's all extractivist or not
57:24all. I mean, if it's tourism, it's
57:27extractivist. There are other other
57:29respectful ways.
57:31>> So,
57:31>> yeah. No, it's it's these are these are
57:34I think incredibly uh important insights
57:39uh in in uh in this respect. Um,
57:44>> yeah, I'm not sure I answered your
57:45question entirely, but I think that's
57:47probably because um that I'm still
57:50feeling thoroughly conflicted about um
57:54how do we um do do these this
57:59scholarship and
58:02the rest of our lives because we're not
58:04just scholars. Um but I I've certainly
58:07my my academic career has benefited from
58:10spending time with indigenous people.
58:13>> What's the payback? What's the benefit
58:15to them? Uh I can say I give respect,
58:18but that's that's words. Um, I mean, I
58:24hope you'll trust me that I do a bit
58:26more than that, but I um but I still
58:29don't know that that's enough to deal
58:31with all of the terrible things that
58:34>> our culture that I I am still invested
58:37in. Um
58:40>> I think that I think this also perhaps
58:43hearkens back to some of what we spoke
58:46about before like if we think with um
58:50right relation coming into right
58:52relation with with the world then
58:57uh the nine herbs charm and and the
58:59homal uh homal
59:03might have been what Tyson would call a
59:06right story.
59:07>> Yeah.
59:08>> In their own time and they they would
59:10have been embedded in
59:12>> traditions of knowledge keepers and they
59:14would have been dynamic and and uh
59:16transformational pieces of knowledge and
59:19that implies that copy pasting the nine
59:24herbs charm into today and don't I think
59:28the nine herbs charm is
59:31absolutely amazing. It's one of the mo
59:33most amazing North European pieces of
59:35knowledge. But but
59:37that it it has to be mobile. It has that
59:40has to be in order for it to fall into
59:43right relation with our time.
59:47>> Yes. Very much so. So
59:50we agree on so much which is good.
59:53>> Yeah. Perhaps I should try to disagree
59:56with you a little bit more. Try
59:58>> that. That' be good. Challenge him. Then
1:00:00I learn.
1:00:02Um,
1:00:05uh, let me just
1:00:06>> Oops. Sorry.
1:00:12Sorry.
1:00:16sake.
1:00:24My mobile provider deciding to test an
1:00:27emergency call. Can I please like
1:00:33um
1:00:34cool if we assume that
1:00:38indigenous knowledge
1:00:41actually does hold some sort of promise
1:00:45for less destructive modes of human
1:00:48being in the world?
1:00:50Um then doesn't it also become a kind of
1:00:53an obligation
1:00:56of scholarship actually not just of us
1:00:59as private persons or perhaps animists
1:01:03or or or pagans or however we identify
1:01:06but but also in in scholarship a moral
1:01:10imperative for scholarship to play a
1:01:13role in in uh um
1:01:18somehow channeling
1:01:21the the insights that can lead towards
1:01:24less destructive human culture basically
1:01:26into our societies and what are then the
1:01:30problems with that and do do you have a
1:01:34thoughts or thoughts on that?
1:01:35>> No, absolutely. And I mean the the the
1:01:38crazy thing is that that
1:01:42making it a problem to learn from
1:01:47others, human or otherwise,
1:01:50and feeling like there's therefore an
1:01:52obligation to improve the world, whether
1:01:57it starts with me or my book or my my
1:02:00lecture or my whatever or whether it
1:02:02means in my everyday life. All right.
1:02:05That there's an obligation having
1:02:07learned heard from somebody or spent
1:02:10time with the community to make the
1:02:12world better. That's that's often not
1:02:15sure I was going to say only a problem
1:02:17in the so-called human sciences
1:02:20for for people in the natural sciences.
1:02:25They they want
1:02:27>> they're not just going um I want to
1:02:30understand Mars
1:02:32>> because we understand Mars. They want I
1:02:35mean they may be crazy but they want to
1:02:36eventually live there. I go that you're
1:02:40wrong but um but they've got an
1:02:42intention to to make life better for
1:02:45somebody. They want they want to be a
1:02:47practical outcome and that's at every
1:02:49level of this stuff. They they're
1:02:51testing
1:02:53microbes
1:02:55to improve health and so on and so on.
1:02:59So it's only a problem I mean maybe I'm
1:03:02exaggerating for for people studying
1:03:06other cultures and so on or and
1:03:08religions in particular and again
1:03:10there's a history here that the study of
1:03:12religions
1:03:15uh separated itself from theology as a
1:03:19thoroughly religious practice. And
1:03:21therefore the danger for a scholar of
1:03:24religion
1:03:26um
1:03:28is
1:03:29being religious
1:03:31um and being affected by what people say
1:03:34or do. And you go okay. So um to me the
1:03:39only danger is
1:03:42um thinking that
1:03:44only this group of people that I spent
1:03:47time with have taught me something that
1:03:50I need to learn and practice.
1:03:52But I can tell you that I've been in
1:03:55religious communities, religious events
1:03:58where things happen that if I was a
1:04:02member of that community, I'd say this
1:04:05proves this religion is the truth. So,
1:04:08you know, Christians pray, get answers.
1:04:12Muslims pray, get answers. Buddhists
1:04:17meditate,
1:04:19get benefits or escape the world and so
1:04:22on and so on. Pagans
1:04:24>> do ceremony,
1:04:26the weather changes. You know, every
1:04:29religion can can provide evidence of its
1:04:35benefits, um outcomes and so on. So,
1:04:40so that's that's that's a challenge
1:04:44for me.
1:04:46But it's not a challenge for me to say
1:04:49um when I spend time with all those
1:04:52people
1:04:53um somehow I am responsible for the
1:04:56stuff I've learned not only to
1:04:58communicate it better in lectures or
1:05:02whatever but also to think how might
1:05:07this
1:05:10lead me to improve my life my relations
1:05:14>> um or is there something here that will
1:05:18help me to improve the world for for
1:05:20those people for some other people even
1:05:23if I don't agree with them um there's
1:05:26something I can learn so so there are so
1:05:29it's a difficult world um
1:05:33>> but but it's not the
1:05:34>> particularly particularly for people who
1:05:37study
1:05:39uh study the knowledge productions of
1:05:41people that they disagree with a lot
1:05:44>> yeah like
1:05:46um many of my colleagues that are
1:05:49historians of religion here, they they
1:05:52tend to study stuff that they on a
1:05:55personal level really don't like or some
1:05:58of them some of it's a bit of a tendency
1:05:59and
1:06:01>> and I think that accentuates the problem
1:06:05if uh of because
1:06:09>> if you're starting people who are say
1:06:10Nazis
1:06:13uh like
1:06:16and you how do you come into right
1:06:18relation with something like that
1:06:20>> like
1:06:22>> um h how do you pay them back for having
1:06:26>> taken you in and shared their Nazi
1:06:28knowledge with you?
1:06:30>> No, that that that that's a real
1:06:32challenge and I I confess that I've
1:06:35avoided it largely. I have spent some
1:06:37time with exactly the kind of people
1:06:39you're talking about. Um, and and it was
1:06:44early in my career and I don't think I'd
1:06:46really thought about
1:06:48how do I I mean I think now I could say
1:06:52the only respect I can give them is to
1:06:54try and represent them in ways that they
1:06:57would recognize themselves. That's a
1:06:59fairly standard
1:07:00>> anthropological ethnographic practice.
1:07:03They should represent themselves in in
1:07:05my representation of them, right? But I
1:07:10don't want to learn much else from those
1:07:13people. Um so so I I I then my
1:07:17confession goes on that um I have been
1:07:20criticized for not spending not writing
1:07:25enough about some of those aspects of
1:07:27paganism and I may I have therefore
1:07:31suggested it's a lot nicer than it might
1:07:33be. um that
1:07:37but that's partly in my own defense. Um
1:07:41my excuse for that is I think that I
1:07:44started some of this stuff earlier than
1:07:46some of my colleagues and therefore it
1:07:49was important to say
1:07:52um
1:07:54that there there are these people are
1:07:56doing some interesting and good things.
1:07:59they are at the forefront of ecological
1:08:02movements and maybe I overdid the
1:08:04greenness and the feminism of some of
1:08:06these groups but uh and underplayed the
1:08:10hierarchies and so on. Um
1:08:13>> so but
1:08:16um now it's it's much easier for people
1:08:19to to to write those things because
1:08:21we've got a foundation in a basis that
1:08:23says okay um what's going on? But you
1:08:28know my my colleagues who study
1:08:31Christianity
1:08:33or my immediate colleagues happily some
1:08:35of other scholars who study Christianity
1:08:38>> they're still talking as if Christianity
1:08:40was lovely and if only people understood
1:08:44this and you know they they accuse
1:08:47polytheists of um having deities that
1:08:51justify all the unpleasant parts of
1:08:53human um humanity and you go okay really
1:08:57I mean
1:08:59>> they would say that
1:09:00>> you you haven't noticed that monotheism
1:09:03is
1:09:05deeply embedded in
1:09:07>> hierarchy misogyny you know please and
1:09:11>> there's probably not a deity that has
1:09:14been used to justify more
1:09:18>> you know brutality
1:09:20>> and if they haven't got
1:09:21>> poor Jesus
1:09:22>> yeah if they can't if they can't do and
1:09:24their only their only response to that
1:09:27is of course that's not really
1:09:28Christianity. you go, well, okay, then
1:09:31if it isn't Christianity, then neither
1:09:33is the stuff you've you don't like
1:09:36really polytheism,
1:09:38>> you know, um, Athena didn't say go and
1:09:41slaughter the the the Trojans, you know,
1:09:44it's just you can't do that.
1:09:46>> You've got to accept. So, but my point
1:09:49is if after nearly 2,000 years of
1:09:53Christian study of the of their own
1:09:56traditions, if they can't represent the
1:10:00dark side of their traditions,
1:10:02shallow side, whatever we're going to
1:10:03call that, then don't blame me for
1:10:06portraying paganism as being nice and
1:10:09occasionally fluffy. Um,
1:10:14>> I'm not going about some of the crazy
1:10:16people I've met. So, now I've just said
1:10:19that out loud.
1:10:21But but uh couldn't you I remember
1:10:25reading your um
1:10:28you describing maui culture about
1:10:31different kinds of relating uh where one
1:10:35of these relationships is enmity
1:10:39conflict
1:10:40>> and
1:10:42uh like couldn't you say that
1:10:46like and and for some reason I'm
1:10:47thinking now of the British scholar uh
1:10:49Ross Downing
1:10:51who is uh also a uh pagan or heathen and
1:10:57he is starting rightwing heathenry
1:11:00>> and he is also a heathen himself. So I
1:11:03think you could
1:11:06he should probably represent himself.
1:11:08I'm just speculating now that it's
1:11:10possible possible that that there is a
1:11:14moral
1:11:16integrity to stepping into that field
1:11:19and saying I study these people from a
1:11:22position of enmity.
1:11:24>> Yes.
1:11:26>> What do you think of that?
1:11:27>> No, you're right. And I'm I'm Thank you
1:11:29for reminding me um because I had
1:11:31thought several times that we could talk
1:11:33about being a guest in those
1:11:34communities. Um and that sounds very
1:11:37nice. But but as you said the one phase
1:11:41of the guest making protocols among Mari
1:11:45is that you get inside the ancestor
1:11:48house. you are in the ancestors body um
1:11:52with the local community and you then
1:11:55negotiate
1:11:57why are you there and and this is true
1:12:00whether it's Mari meeting other Mari
1:12:03saying so one example I've used for that
1:12:06maybe it's not an extreme emnity but
1:12:08it's it's a difficult situation if
1:12:11somebody has died and they're supposed
1:12:14to be buried back in their home
1:12:17ancestral and where their placenta was
1:12:20buried when they were born, but they've
1:12:24lived they've married into another
1:12:26community and they lived all their life
1:12:29and that community wants to bury them.
1:12:31That family wants to bury them there.
1:12:34You can't bury the body in two places.
1:12:37So once you get in, you establish
1:12:41respectful guest relations, host guest
1:12:44relations, then you need to spend the
1:12:46time
1:12:48coming to an agreement if you can. Um so
1:12:54um
1:12:55so there's even that level but but even
1:12:58before that as you alluded to in the
1:13:01guest making protocol the beginning of
1:13:02it is um you're called into the space
1:13:06the marai and you're given an
1:13:08opportunity to be an enemy to say um I'm
1:13:13going to the warrior comes up to you and
1:13:16in the in the hucker that we're all
1:13:18familiar with from seeing the all black
1:13:21rope squad and so on. That's part of a
1:13:23protocol that says, "I respect you. If
1:13:26you want to fight me, now's your chance.
1:13:29Otherwise, we'll carry on to be friendly
1:13:33guests." And then we have different
1:13:35responsibilities. If you think you're
1:13:37tough enough, have a fight. And that's
1:13:40that's part of this whole process. Now
1:13:44>> if I said as a scholar, okay, I'm going
1:13:47to fight you, then my research ends
1:13:50because I don't get inside the
1:13:53community, the ancestor, the body of
1:13:55knowledge. I don't learn anything. I
1:13:58just
1:13:59>> I come and I say, "You're wrong." And
1:14:02that's what a lot of our colleagues have
1:14:03done. They just That's what Edward Tyler
1:14:06did. He know he knew that animism was
1:14:09wrong and he didn't learn anything um
1:14:13much. Um
1:14:15but you but when you get into the
1:14:17community and then you say hang on, are
1:14:21you sure about this? Um
1:14:25um my understanding is so and so. You
1:14:28you try and do that in a respectful way
1:14:30and you you may never come to an full
1:14:33agreement. Um, but that's that's the
1:14:36effort. And yes, then I I have great
1:14:38respect for people who do study with
1:14:41Nazi heathens or
1:14:44misogynist druids or uh trying to pick
1:14:48examples here of people I
1:14:51>> that I have met um and so on, you know,
1:14:55but that
1:14:56>> they're around.
1:14:58>> Um and you kind of go, okay, what is it?
1:15:01What can I do with what I learn?
1:15:04um
1:15:05>> from these people. It's also possible
1:15:08that you that it could be viewed as then
1:15:10a methodological
1:15:12constraint that says in order for in
1:15:15order for me to be in right relation
1:15:16with these people there are I need to
1:15:19operate within certain parameters
1:15:22which where one of them could be well
1:15:24perhaps fieldwork with them is not a
1:15:26possibility because that would
1:15:28>> uh demand uh faking fa faking
1:15:32friendship.
1:15:33>> Yes. uh or something like that and that
1:15:35would perhaps be immoral. Uh
1:15:37>> yes,
1:15:38>> unless the enmity teaches you that that
1:15:41you have to sneak I don't know. I'm just
1:15:45that's often an example used of people
1:15:47studying particularly in ritual
1:15:49ceremonial occasions. Um how far can I
1:15:53go if I wanted to study the Roman
1:15:56Catholic mass eukarist? Um,
1:15:59>> yeah,
1:16:00>> I can't, in all honesty, go and go up to
1:16:03the altar
1:16:05um and join in fully.
1:16:07>> So, does my presence disrupt the
1:16:11ceremony? Um, okay. I I'm aware that
1:16:15there are lots of other people in that
1:16:17church community, a church building
1:16:19perhaps, who are also not full members.
1:16:24and um and the the the the religious
1:16:29community there will they preach that's
1:16:33part of the ritual because they want to
1:16:35convert you they want to persuade you of
1:16:38their their reality. Okay. So so then
1:16:42there is there's an opportunity for me I
1:16:44am a participant because I'm hearing
1:16:47them telling me that I'm wrong and
1:16:49they're right and so on. um that they
1:16:52want they want me to sit through that
1:16:55opportunity
1:16:57to
1:16:58>> to become member of the community.
1:17:01Uh and I can I can learn from that even
1:17:04if I at the end go no I'm I'm on my way
1:17:08out now. I've I I still not convinced.
1:17:12Um but but yeah that that's the
1:17:14challenge for doing for studying rituals
1:17:17that there are communities
1:17:19>> who have nothing like the Mari guest
1:17:23making ceremony. They only recognize
1:17:28>> insiders outsiders and some academics
1:17:30only rep only recognize insiders
1:17:33outsiders.
1:17:34>> There's nothing no other position which
1:17:36is crazy because there's always another
1:17:38position. Um
1:17:41uh but yeah, communities that only want
1:17:44to convert you or condemn you as a
1:17:46heretic or whatever.
1:17:48>> Yeah.
1:17:48>> Um they're very difficult to research
1:17:50in. Um so
1:17:53>> yeah no I I confess that I have also uh
1:17:57no not also uh but I have taken the easy
1:18:00easy way out and only studied
1:18:04uh the knowledge of people that I felt
1:18:08that where I felt that I had or almost
1:18:11only studied where I felt that I could
1:18:13legitimately learn something from them
1:18:16where they're not where I regarded their
1:18:17knowledge as superior to mine.
1:18:19>> Right. But but you two know that there
1:18:21are other people not too far from those
1:18:24people that that we spend time with. And
1:18:27even in those communities that we do
1:18:29spend time with, there are people who
1:18:32are
1:18:33>> difficult in some way. Um
1:18:36>> and we try to
1:18:41represent to include them in our
1:18:43understanding of that community. We're
1:18:45not purely representing the the nice
1:18:49Yeah.
1:18:50>> Fully ecological,
1:18:51spiritual, fully animistic community and
1:18:55all that stuff.
1:18:56>> Totally.
1:18:56>> Yeah.
1:18:57>> So, you know, we're we're honest enough
1:18:59about that.
1:19:01>> Cool. Um,
1:19:02>> do you have other questions because I'm
1:19:04going to have to go soon.
1:19:06>> I have I have one more question. We But
1:19:08uh um so we can
1:19:12>> Yeah. Um
1:19:15I I'm sometimes thinking about how how
1:19:19animist thinking is moving in our time
1:19:22and how uh it's it's moving into also
1:19:27different religions. For instance, you
1:19:28see Christian theologians uh who are uh
1:19:34producing Christianity as an an animist
1:19:37form. I I have a friend who's a rabbi
1:19:39here in in Copenhagen who is thinking
1:19:42actually with Nordic land connectedness
1:19:45in trying to think with Judaism and
1:19:49>> and also sometimes I see more more
1:19:51problematic tendencies where
1:19:55stuff that I would sus perhaps suspect
1:19:56of being greenwashy where you have all
1:19:59of a sudden you have these kind of
1:20:02leadership consultancy
1:20:04uh that are being sold and and it it's
1:20:09projected as being perhaps animist or
1:20:12indigenous or these sort of things.
1:20:14>> Uh h how uh how do you see
1:20:19the like the future or the near future
1:20:23of animist thinking in our culture in
1:20:26this problematic landscape?
1:20:29>> Okay. So I I celebrate diversity. Um
1:20:33that um there are lots of different
1:20:35versions of animism and everything else.
1:20:40Uh I don't want to become the
1:20:43fundamentalist or the copyrighting
1:20:46person who says you know no look you use
1:20:49it my way or you don't use it. No. So I
1:20:52know that there are there are different
1:20:54people pagan animists who mean very
1:20:56different things. Some of them are
1:20:58absolutely focused on spirits uh and
1:21:02transcend other world and the goddess
1:21:05and whatever. Um and and then the
1:21:09animists who are
1:21:12interested in plants and so on and
1:21:14that's that's their focus. So that's
1:21:17great. Um I would like there to be a
1:21:20conversation in which we enrich those
1:21:23those practices and so on. But um but it
1:21:26is it is amazing. I I I mean there's a
1:21:29great website called Christian animists
1:21:32and there's there's a great book by Mari
1:21:35Ystat on the Hebrew Bible and
1:21:37environmental
1:21:39knowledge. Is it called environmental
1:21:40knowledge which is a reading of the
1:21:43Hebrew Bible as a as a largely animist
1:21:48text.
1:21:49That's great. I just go wow. Um so there
1:21:54are a lot and and animism of the kind
1:21:56that you and I celebrate um um that
1:22:02there are these relations between humans
1:22:04and the sun and the earth and and the
1:22:07plants and the and and the po the poetry
1:22:11of the book of Psalms isn't about
1:22:14representing
1:22:16um it's not a metaphor when it says the
1:22:18hills clap to praise God. I mean, okay,
1:22:22there's a metaphor. They've got hands,
1:22:24but they are the hills are doing
1:22:27something, right? This is animism. Um,
1:22:31so I kind of think animism will carry on
1:22:35and maybe at some point, you know,
1:22:38there's been a tendency, there's been a
1:22:41what's it called? there's been a an
1:22:45evolution in people saying, "Okay,
1:22:50um, we're pagans and this is what
1:22:52paganism is." And then there was this,
1:22:55um, teen witch phenomenon. A lot of the
1:22:58pagans of a previous generation said,
1:23:00"No, no, okay. I'm not going to call
1:23:01myself pagan anymore because that I
1:23:03don't recognize that. So now I need a
1:23:05new name for myself."
1:23:07Um and these things keep evolving that
1:23:12pe what what the word pagan meant means
1:23:16changes and
1:23:19um
1:23:20just as any other word
1:23:22>> changes and I and I think animism will
1:23:26carry on meaning new things and I think
1:23:30maybe there'll be a point at which I've
1:23:32I've been reading a lot more the kind of
1:23:34new materialism and ontological turn and
1:23:37and these indigenous scholars who don't
1:23:39need the word animism
1:23:41>> um you know they go as um Linda Hogan
1:23:45said um why why do we why do you want
1:23:48this word animism we just call it
1:23:50tradition it's just it's what we do so
1:23:54maybe there's a point at which I'll go
1:23:56the same thing and I'll think there's
1:23:57another word from those different
1:24:01complexes but at the moment I think it's
1:24:04still a useful word because it says
1:24:06something about the animation of the
1:24:08world and what I get animated by. Um and
1:24:13it has a difficult history but we can
1:24:16reclaim those difficult terms.
1:24:18>> Yeah. So um
1:24:20>> I sometimes almost feel that
1:24:22>> the fact that there is difficult history
1:24:25attached to some of the words that we
1:24:27need
1:24:28>> that that is actually
1:24:30>> it's almost a good thing that they have
1:24:33that this attachment is there because it
1:24:35forces us into
1:24:37>> addressing and coping with some of
1:24:38those.
1:24:39>> Yes.
1:24:40>> And it forces us and our audiences,
1:24:44that's the wrong word, but whatever the
1:24:46word is. um to to think because because
1:24:51animism meant this which entirely like
1:24:54Edward Tyler entirely fitted within that
1:24:57modernity that's become more and more
1:24:59problematic. Um, and if we if we only
1:25:03addressed animism as an indigenous
1:25:07relational ontology,
1:25:10um, we'd we'd miss the opportunity to
1:25:13say, can we just talk about the problem
1:25:15of the modern world?
1:25:17>> Yeah.
1:25:18>> And, uh, its oppositions.
1:25:21So, so yes, it's a good opportunity like
1:25:25your earlier question about where we
1:25:27talked about persons and subjects and
1:25:29all these other words.
1:25:31>> Mhm.
1:25:31>> They have a baggage and therefore we can
1:25:35say okay I didn't mean unspirit you know
1:25:39I didn't mean that and this
1:25:42>> but I want to reclaim this word and
1:25:45there are lots of other good words. So
1:25:47at some point, you know, you we've
1:25:50talked about
1:25:52um being gifted uh an indigenous word
1:25:56like totem and taboo.
1:25:59>> And there are plenty of other words, but
1:26:01also reclaiming the European terms.
1:26:05>> Yeah. uh and insisting that they still
1:26:09mean something and can teach us still
1:26:11things that are healthy and necessary in
1:26:15the world we now face. Um
1:26:19>> yeah to totally and and the stuff like
1:26:23the way that like for instance uh many
1:26:27today actually use I mean I use mostly
1:26:31the the
1:26:34saying other than human persons for
1:26:36instance
1:26:37>> um
1:26:39and you were the one who introduced that
1:26:41from hallow right
1:26:43>> yeah well
1:26:43>> did he call it nonhuman persons
1:26:45>> no I think he says other than humans
1:26:47>> okay And to to some degree he he does
1:26:50use examples of the the thunder beings
1:26:53and so on which kind of does point it
1:26:57yeah
1:26:58where when western people might think
1:27:00it's beyond this world but but he's also
1:27:03talking about people who are engaging
1:27:05with the stones and are all the stones
1:27:08alive and so on. Um but yeah, no no he
1:27:11he he he coined the phrase and and I'm
1:27:13not the first person that repeated him
1:27:15saying other than human persons. It's
1:27:18there in very the you know 1990 work by
1:27:24um um
1:27:28my mind's gone blank. Nar Berdevided um
1:27:31writing about animism that that kind of
1:27:35key text for many of us.
1:27:37So how
1:27:38>> that has al that text has also been
1:27:39absolutely
1:27:42decisive for uh for my work.
1:27:45>> Yeah.
1:27:45>> Yeah.
1:27:46>> Cool.
1:27:48>> Yeah.
1:27:49>> Absolutely
1:27:51wonderful to have you on the channel uh
1:27:54Graeme. So great to finally to finally
1:27:57have the chance to uh for you to share
1:28:01uh share some knowledge with me here.
1:28:03I'm really grateful. Um, so
1:28:06>> well, thank you again. It's been an
1:28:08honor.
1:28:09>> Good questions are always always good.
1:28:12Challenges are also good sometimes. So,
1:28:15>> yeah. Yeah. Um, great. So, yes, thanks
1:28:19for being here and um
1:28:23I hope to see you around uh someday. Um,
1:28:27I had hoped to be able to record this
1:28:30kind of an interview live, but it it
1:28:32ended ended up passing too much time
1:28:34where I was not in England. So,
1:28:37>> well, we'll do it sometime and uh maybe
1:28:39we'll have had new thoughts and new
1:28:41practices to share.
1:28:43>> Yeah, we'll we'll we'll meet in person
1:28:44and do it again sometime.
1:28:47>> Great. Thank you very much.
1:28:49>> Thank you.
1:28:53FY
1:28:59red
1:29:03Oh,
1:29:05healthy
1:29:07body.
1:29:08[Music]
1:29:31Oh, long long
1:29:37[Music]

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