The Future Mark Zuckerberg Is Trying To Build — Transcript

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1. 0:00I'd love to start with these. 10 years of work  right there. Someone on your team called these
2. 0:04the real life Tony Stark glasses. Very hard  to make each one of these... That makes me feel
3. 0:08incredibly optimistic... In a world where AI  gets smarter and smarter... This is probably
4. 0:11going to be the next major platform after  phones... I miss hugging my mom. Yeah haptics
5. 0:16is hard... How does generative AI change  how social media feels?... We haven't found
6. 0:21the end yet... The average American has fewer  friends now than they did 15 years ago. Why
7. 0:26do you think that's happening? I mean  there's a lot going on to to unpack there...
8. 0:33I'm about to interview Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg. There are not
9. 0:41that many people with more power over what our  future might look like. Nearly half the total human
10. 0:47population now uses Meta products and I just  tested some of their new tech that feels like
11. 0:52science fiction. This is crazy! Mark Zuckerberg and  the team at Meta are imagining a future that billions
12. 1:00of other people might actually end up living in. So  my goal for this conversation is to try to figure
13. 1:05out what that future really looks like. To paint a  picture of the future Mark Zuckerberg is trying to
14. 1:10build so that you can decide for yourself what you  think of it. Welcome to the first episode of our
15. 1:15new series, Huge Conversations
16. 1:23Hey, good to meet you! Thanks for doing this. Yeah looking forward
17. 1:26to it. Awesome. I'd love to tell you what my goal  is of this conversation. Go for it. We have a called
18. 1:34huge if true which is this very optimistic about  science and technology and the potential futures
19. 1:39that we can build and in every episode we're sort  of exploring what does it look like if you play a
20. 1:45certain technological future out and so my goal  in this conversation is to try to help people
21. 1:52see the future that you're imagining when you're  building the products that you and the Meta team
22. 1:57are building. What are you imagining this looks  like in future? How are you imagining people use
23. 2:01this? All of that. Cool. All right awesome. So  I'd love to start with these. Let's do it. 10 years
24. 2:09of work right there! I got to demo them a little  bit earlier today. I heard someone on your team
25. 2:15call these the real life Tony Stark glasses? We're  getting there. But I'd love to just hear in your
26. 2:20voice what are these? Well these are the first full  holographic augmented reality glasses I think that
27. 2:29exist in the world. We've made I think it's a  a few thousand or something right. Very hard to
28. 2:37make each one of these but this is the culmination  of 10 years of research and and development that
29. 2:43we've done to basically miniaturize all the  computing that you need to have glasses not a
30. 2:53headset but glasses that can put full holograms  into the world with a wide field of view. So you
31. 3:00can imagine sort of in the future we'd be having a  version of this conversation where you know maybe
32. 3:06I or you are not even here it's like one of us is  physically here and the other one is here as a as
33. 3:10kind of a full body hologram and it's not just  a video call you can actually interact you can
34. 3:14do things I mean in the the demo we had the you  know ping pong and games and things like that but
35. 3:20I mean you could you can interact you can work  together you can you know play poker play chests
36. 3:24whatever like the holographic cards holographic  board game. I just think it's going to be wild.
37. 3:29it's going to remake I think so many different  fields that we think about today from how we work
38. 3:36and productivity to a lot of things around science  a lot of things around education entertainment fun
39. 3:43gaming. But this is just the beginning you  know this is the first version, it's a
40. 3:48prototype version that we've made in order  to develop the next version which is hopefully
41. 3:54going to be the consumer one that we sell to  a lot of people. Why build these? Well I think
42. 3:59it's going to be the next major computing platform.  So if you look at like the grand arc of computing
43. 4:04over time you've you've gone from like main  frames to computers that basically like live
44. 4:11on you know your desk or on a tower to phones  that you have in your hand that you basically
45. 4:17like you know can take with you everywhere that  you want but it's it's pretty unnatural right it
46. 4:21takes you away from the world around you and. I  think that the trend in computing is it gets more
47. 4:28ubiquitous it gets more natural and it just  gets more social right so you want to be able
48. 4:34to interact with people in the world around you  and I think that this is probably going to be
49. 4:38the next major platform after phones. I'll give  these to you. These are the clear ones that show
50. 4:44all the... The whole thing is a special edition and  this is like a really special edition. There's
51. 4:48not a single millimeter of of space. You know  everything in here from the micro projectors that
52. 5:00um basically shoot light into the wave guides  right it's a special type of display system. I
53. 5:06mean these aren't normal displays like you have  in a phone or a TV or computer like the type of
54. 5:11displays that people have been building for  decades. It's a waveguide system. The projector
55. 5:15that's shooting light basically goes into these  nano etchings across the wave guide that are what
56. 5:23catches and creates the holograms. In order to  synchronize that with your where you're looking
57. 5:30there's eye tracking and little cameras,  they illuminate your eyes and then of course
58. 5:35there's all the basic stuff that you need all the  computing, the batteries to power the whole thing,
59. 5:41microphones, the speakers because it needs to be  able to play audio and speak with you and the
60. 5:48cameras and sensors to see things around you in  the world so that way when it's placing holograms
61. 5:53in the world it can do that in the right place  and understand where you are so that probably
62. 5:58is still not covering everything because there's  a lot of things that need to go into syncing up
63. 6:03the holographic images between the two displays  because you don't just have a single display
64. 6:08like you have in a phone or TV you have two and  it moves around and you know physical things
65. 6:15are hard and need to be synced up. There's also  the radio that has to communicate with your other
66. 6:19computing devices to do heavier computing um and  the wrist based neural interface that you probably
67. 6:25got to try out. We kind of miniaturized all of this  and fit it into uh you know normal looking pair of
68. 6:31glasses which is... you know when I told the team  that we were going to do this 10 years ago you
69. 6:38know people weren't sure if we were going to be  able to but I think you not only we're going
70. 6:42to be able to do this but I think we're going to  be able to get it cheaper and higher quality and
71. 6:46even even smaller and more stylish over time. So  I think this is going to be a pretty wild future.
72. 6:51There are so many versions of trying to get  a similar idea of digital objects in physical
73. 6:57space. I'm thinking of for example of glasses that  have heads up displays where it's headlocked and
74. 7:05it's moving with my eyes, glasses that are really  creating digital objects in physical space that
75. 7:10don't move as I move, I'm thinking of these, I'm  also thinking of the Snapchat Spectacles that they
76. 7:16just announced, then on the other hand there are  headsets like the Quest and also like the Apple
77. 7:22Vision Pro that seem to fall into a different  category. I'm curious how you would organize this
78. 7:26landscape for people and how you think about  people using these tools in their real lives
79. 7:31in the near future? Yeah so when we were getting  started on this about 10 years ago I thought that
80. 7:36something like this was going to be the ultimate  product for everyone. Right you get to you know
81. 7:41normal looking pair of glasses and we'll continue  improving that that can have full holographic
82. 7:46images. I think it's super powerful  and it is sort of the science fiction future that
83. 7:51I think we all hope to get to. On the journey we  took a few other approaches as well um to help us
84. 7:59develop towards that including building glasses  that don't have displays to try to learn. Just
85. 8:06take a stylish pair of glasses today and put as  much technology into it as you can but really
86. 8:11focus on the form factor and that's the Ray Ban  Meta glasses and it's doing really well and
87. 8:16initially we thought that that was sort of intro  product for us to learn how to build this but one
88. 8:23of the things that's clear now is you're going to  be able to make that product a lot more affordable
89. 8:29than this probably permanently. So I actually think  that there are going to be a bunch of different of
90. 8:35these paths that we've taken are going to be  kind of permanent product lines that people
91. 8:40will choose. I think you'll see display-less glasses  like the Ray Ban Metas continue to get better and
92. 8:45better, great for AI, no display but you can talk  to it, it can talk back. I think there's going to
93. 8:51be something in between these that's basically a  heads up display, so it's not a 70° field of view,
94. 8:57maybe it's a 20° or 30 degree field of view,  so that's not going to be what you want for
95. 9:03putting kind of a full hologram of a person or  interacting with the world around you but it's
96. 9:08going to be great for you know when you're talking  to AI, not just having voice but also being able
97. 9:12to see what it's saying or being able to text  someone with your wrist-based neural interface and
98. 9:18then have their text show up rather than having it  read to you, which is, we read faster than we
99. 9:22can listen or getting directions right or just  being able to search for information get all that.
100. 9:28So there's a lot of value for heads up display  that will be somewhat more expensive than the
101. 9:32display-less but somewhat cheaper than this.  Then I think you're going to get this. It's going
102. 9:38to be probably the most premium and and expensive  of glasses products but hopefully still something
103. 9:46that you know like a computer is generally  accessible to most people in the world but I think
104. 9:51that there are going to be all of those and I  I think people will like them. I also think that
105. 9:55the headsets that people are using around mixed  reality will continue to be a thing too because
106. 10:01no matter how good we get at miniaturizing  the tech for this you're just going to be
107. 10:04able to fit more compute into a full headset.  Fundamentally our mission is not you know build
108. 10:11something that is advanced and only a few people  can use, we want to take it you the last mile and
109. 10:17do all the innovation to get it to everyone. We  you know just shipped or announced Quest 3S,
110. 10:22the new mixed reality headset where we basically are  delivering high quality mixed reality for $299.
111. 10:30I was really proud last year when we delivered  Quest 3, the first kind of really high quality
112. 10:36high resolution color mixed reality device for  $500, right it was like, it's like a fraction of
113. 10:42the cost of of what the competitors are doing  and I think it's actually higher quality in a
114. 10:46lot of ways, and now we've just doubled down on  that. So I think that they're all actually going
115. 10:52to end up being important long-term product lines:  display-less, heads up display, full holographic
116. 10:59AR, full headsets. I think that they're all going  to be important. Yeah. If you play out the future
117. 11:06of not just the hardware that we've been talking  about so Meta Ray Bans, Quest, Orion, but also
118. 11:16the Llama models, if everything goes according to  you and the teams wildest dreams, I'd love for
119. 11:23you to just begin to describe what that feels like.  I mean I think that there are two primary values
120. 11:28that we're trying to bring. On the AR and kind of  mixed reality side, the main value we're trying to
121. 11:34bring is this feeling of presence .Right so there's  something that I think is just really deep about
122. 11:39being physically present with another person that  you don't get from any other technology today and
123. 11:45I think that's the thing when people have a very  visceral reaction to experiencing virtual or mixed
124. 11:51reality what they're really reacting to is that  they actually for the first time with technology
125. 11:56feel a sense of presence like they're in a place  with the person and that's super powerful. I
126. 12:02focused on designing social apps and experiences  for 20 years that's sort of like the Holy Grail
127. 12:08of that is being able to build a technology  platform that delivers this like deep sense of
128. 12:13of social presence. The other big track is around  personalized AI and for that and that's sort of
129. 12:20where Llama and Meta AI and all those things are  going. There's all this development that's going
130. 12:25into making the models smarter and smarter over  time but I think where this is going to get
131. 12:31really compelling is when it's personalized for  you and in order for it to be personalized for you
132. 12:38it has to have context and understand what's going  on in your life both kind of at a global level and
133. 12:44like what's physically happening around you right  now and in order to do that I think that glasses
134. 12:49are going to be the ideal form factor because  they're positioned on your face in a way where
135. 12:53they can let them see what you see and hear what  you hear which are the two most important senses
136. 12:58that we use for for kind of taking information  and context about the world. I think that this is
137. 13:03all going to be kind of really deep and profound  stuff but it's basically those two things: It's
138. 13:07this feeling of presence and this capability  of really personalized intelligence that can
139. 13:12help you. I'd love to talk about each of those  two things. The first on presence, I owe a lot
140. 13:20to being able to connect with people online. Right  this job that I have is by definition that, also with
141. 13:25my family. My parents don't live anywhere close  to me. I video call them a lot and when I think
142. 13:31about the progress of technology like this in a  timeline from the telegram to the telephone
143. 13:39to video call to some feeling of presence with  another person who's feels like they're right
144. 13:45there in front of me, that makes me feel incredibly  optimistic. I would love a future where like I can
145. 13:51lose in Scrabble to my mom and feel like she's  really there in front of me. Yeah and it feels like
146. 13:57we're not that far away from something - I agree! - that persuades my brain that that's happening. Yeah
147. 14:01totally. And also I miss hugging my mom right like  that never goes away. Yeah haptics is hard. Yeah and
148. 14:12so my question is about that  it's about this this feeling of like it's hard
149. 14:16for me to imagine um a future where real physical  presence is not different and special in some way
150. 14:25where I don't miss literally hugging my  mom and I'm curious how you think about the
151. 14:33parts of human connection that are eye contact and  physical touch and things that our ape brains
152. 14:41value for connection with other people. Yeah well eye contact I think we're going to get to a lot before
153. 14:47the the touch part. For haptics I do think we'll  make progress on that but it's it's obviously
154. 14:53there's a spectrum there too from kind of hands  which is where if you you draw out the kind
155. 15:01of like homunculus version of a person in terms  of like what are what are our kind of sensory you
156. 15:05know what what's like the majority of what we're  sensing it's like yeah yeah so I think being
157. 15:10able to do that for your hands is probably the  most important place to start and you have a rough
158. 15:16version of that with controllers today. I think  that that'll get even more over time. We have this
159. 15:21demo playing pingpong where you have a controller  where as the digital ball hits the ping pong
160. 15:27paddle you feel it hit the as if it's hitting the  ping pong paddle wherever it is so you actually
161. 15:31have a sense of like where it's it's hitting  the the the paddle so I think that was that
162. 15:36was just a wild demo so I think we'll get some of  that the most extreme version of this is wanting
163. 15:41force feedback right so I mean like for doing a lot  of sports right it's it's like okay we can kind of
164. 15:47do a good approximation of like boxing today or  you get like good feedback on your hands but it
165. 15:54would be hard to do a virtual reality version of  Jiu-Jitsu where you're like grappling with someone and
166. 15:59you need like real kind of force feedback on  that so that's probably like the hardest thing
167. 16:04right to go do but I think we'll get there.  You know I think like most science fiction it's
168. 16:11not this binary thing that you just like wake up  one day and we're like oh we've realized all the
169. 16:14dreams but but I I do think that these platforms  are going to be the first time that I think that
170. 16:20there's a realistic sense of presence in all  the ways that that's special to people for
171. 16:29most things that people want to do which are not  the most physical ones and even some of the basic
172. 16:33physical ones I think we'll get. But then there's  a long tale of other stuff I mean smell is also
173. 16:38really important for people yeah right it's  I think it's disproportionately important for
174. 16:42memories and that's not really a thing that  I think in the next few years we're going to
175. 16:49have in any of these devices I mean that's a very  difficult and challenging thing on its own. What is
176. 16:55the piece of that that you feel most interested in,  that you keep coming back to in your mind? This has
177. 17:01the frustrating property to develop that the  sense of presence is almost like when you're
178. 17:07designing something that that's sort of trying  to artificially deliver it you're delivering
179. 17:12an illusion to a person and more than any one  thing that provides a sense of presence it's
180. 17:20actually more the case that any one thing done  wrong breaks the sense of presence. You kind
181. 17:24of know that you're interacting with technology  but it's so convincing that um that you just kind
182. 17:33of go along with it. You're like okay yeah no this  person feels like it feel like they're there right.
183. 17:37When I did that pingpong demo I like at the end  of it I dropped the pingpong paddle on the virtual
184. 17:44table and it shattered so that was not the best  for for our internal development but
185. 17:50like that's winning in our in our development  right it's like when when you feel like something
186. 17:55is is kind of so realistic that you you're just  convinced that um that it's there now and there
187. 18:01are a lot of things that can break that right so  I think a a field of view that's too low right so
188. 18:06something feels real but then you turn your head  and it's not there um latency read physics that
189. 18:12don't behave like realistic physics. It also is  interesting in some ways what people can accept
190. 18:19as physically real even though it's not right  so like we've done a ton of work on avatars we
191. 18:25we have this whole work stream on Kodak avatars  to do these photo avatars and it's I think it's
192. 18:30going to be incredbly compelling and people are  going to love it but one of the things I found
193. 18:36interesting is the ability to mix photorealistic  and expressive kind of the cartoony avatars with
194. 18:42photorealistic worlds and kind of more cartoony  computer game type worlds so you can have the
195. 18:49a Kodak kind of photorealistic avatar of a  person in what is clearly like a video game
196. 18:54or cartoon world and people are generally  pretty fine with that it's like okay that
197. 18:58that feels pretty good and similarly having  a photorealistic world but good increasingly
198. 19:06good kind of cartoon avatars as long as the  avatars move in a way that feels authentic to
199. 19:13the person you're interacting with it actually  feels pretty good you know it's when you look at
200. 19:17a 2d still frame of it some of the stuff can  look a little bit silly and and we've certainly
201. 19:22you know had had a our share of memes around  that but um but when you're in there you know and
202. 19:27you you've played around with lot of the stuff it  feels realistic because it's basically mimicking
203. 19:32the kind of authentic mannerisms of of a person  that you're interacting with and even if it's not
204. 19:37a Kodak photo realistic avatar if it's kind of  a more cartoony expressive one so I I think that
205. 19:42that's it's very interesting to see kind of  which pieces you need to unlock and what where you
206. 19:48just need to be like very technically excellent  and consistent but it's um this isn't a space
207. 19:52where it's like you deliver one thing and it's  good this is like there's a wide breth of things
208. 19:58that you need to nail and then have it all come  together and that's why these are you know 10 year
209. 20:03projects. It seems like an interesting way to learn  about the human brain and what we actually care
210. 20:11about with respect to what feels real. I was  wondering about, there was this moment in an
211. 20:17interview that you did with Lex Friedman, you quoted  research that says that the average American has
212. 20:25fewer friends now than they did 15 years ago  and I was so interested in that because
213. 20:30it seems like if we want to get to a world where  there's more human connection this is the trend
214. 20:36that we're going to have to grapple with and just  to give some data on this in the American Time Use
215. 20:43Survey over the last 20 years the amount of time  American adults spend socializing in person has
216. 20:49dropped by nearly 30%. For ages 15 to 24 according  to the Surgeon General it's nearly 70%. and I
217. 20:58look at that data and I think to myself well maybe  if we're all socializing digitally that doesn't
218. 21:03matter so much maybe there's a future where that's  actually fine but there's also data that suggest
219. 21:08that we're struggling somewhat. The number of  Americans who say that they don't have a single
220. 21:15close friend - yeah it's really sad - that share has jumped from 3% to 12% in the last 30 years. It feels to
221. 21:24me like with all the tools that we've built for human connection, we're struggling to connect and I'm curious
222. 21:33why do you think that's happening? I mean there's a lot  going on to to unpack there. A lot has changed
223. 21:43sort of economically and socially during that  period and a lot of those trends go back before
224. 21:49a lot of the modern technology. So I mean this  is something that a lot of academics and folks
225. 21:54have have studied but it is an interesting lens  to look at this though because I think whenever
226. 22:01you're talking about building digital types  of connection one of the first questions that
227. 22:07you get is is that going to replace the physical  connection and my answer to that especially in the
228. 22:16case of something like this is that no because  people already don't have as much connection
229. 22:25as they would like to have. It's not like this is  replacing some sort of better physical connection
230. 22:30that they would have otherwise had. It's that the  average person would like to have 10 friends and
231. 22:37they have two right or three and there's just  more demand to socialize than what people are
232. 22:45able to do given the current construct and giving  people the ability to be present with people who
233. 22:52are in other places physically just seems like  it will unlock more. It's not going to make it
234. 22:56so, if I have glasses, it's not going to make  it that I spend less time with my wife, it's going
235. 23:00to make it so that I spend more time with you  know my sister who lives across the country. And
236. 23:06that's, I think that's good. I  think people need that. As for the rest, I
237. 23:12I think we could probably spend a multi-hour  podcast just going into all of the different
238. 23:19kind of socioeconomic political dynamics that are  going on but none of the trends that I've seen
239. 23:28does it seem like the primary thing that's going  on is that because people are interacting online
240. 23:33they're now not interacting with their with people physically. Now certainly I think you
241. 23:42you I do interact with people online who I also  like to interact with physically but and I think
242. 23:48that that's kind of like a combination um like  more combined richer relationship that you have
243. 23:54overall but I think that there's a lot going  on with the loss of of kind of social capital and
244. 24:01connections that really predates a lot of the  modern technology. The goal of what, I'm what I'm
245. 24:08trying most to learn about is how we can structure  the technologies that we use in the future to get
246. 24:15toward this future I think you're imagining of  more human connection in more ways. I'm curious, you
247. 24:22brought up the other big pillar of AI and in some  of your conversations, I'm thinking of a conversation
248. 24:29with Tim Ferris in particular, you talked about  a lot of different use cases of AI and they seem
249. 24:35to me to fall on somewhat of a spectrum. Like  for example you mentioned automatic real-time
250. 24:42translation, like basically the Star Trek  Universal translator. We're pretty
251. 24:47much there! Yeah and that's one example on one  end of the spectrum where some people might argue
252. 24:54that there is a chance that someone is less likely  for example to learn a language because we can all
253. 24:59speak to each other in real time in different  languages. I think nobody would really argue
254. 25:04that therefore we shouldn't have that kind of  universal translator. People still learn Latin and
255. 25:08Greek. Right exactly and so I think that end  of the spectrum is something like um technologies
256. 25:16that really measurably unlock our humanity because  they remove a struggle between people and then on
257. 25:23the other end of the spectrum there are a lot of  educational things for example where the struggle
258. 25:27is kind of the point right? Like it's like building  a muscle. I can think of so many times
259. 25:32in my life where like the reason why I was doing  something was not the output it was the fact that
260. 25:36I was trying so hard to do it. There's one example  in the Tim Ferris interview where you talked
261. 25:41about your kids struggling to articulate  themselves emotionally and adults very much had
262. 25:48the same problem and you talked about AI as a way  to help them articulate those emotions. Yeah and
263. 25:54I thought about all of the many times in my life  where I have struggled to articulate my emotions
264. 26:00and how I really could have used some help in  those moments and I also found myself thinking
265. 26:04about the times when that was really building  a muscle where like the act of struggling to
266. 26:09communicate with someone and understand what they  wanted from me was was important to my development.
267. 26:14And so my question is if you think about that  as a spectrum between things that are really
268. 26:19important to our humanity where and the struggle  being removed is helpful versus things where the
269. 26:25struggle is the point and it unlocks  something about our humanity and is important
270. 26:31to preserve like building a muscle, how do you  draw the line between those things and how do
271. 26:37we ensure that the muscles that we're building for  this future are stronger and not weaker? Yeah it's
272. 26:42interesting I mean I think we're always going to  find new things to struggle with and I mean it's
273. 26:47you can always get better at communicating with  other people and kind of expressing yourself and
274. 26:52understanding other people so having a tool that  can help you do that better isn't going to mean
275. 26:56that like oh now we perfectly understand every you  know it's I mean I think the maybe one
276. 27:05of the most functional aspects of this you're  already seeing a lot of these AI models really
277. 27:09help people with coding right like a generation  ago um before I was getting started a lot of
278. 27:14coding was like really low-level system software  and you know then by the time that I got into
279. 27:20it there was a little bit of that but um you you  can make websites pretty easily make apps pretty
280. 27:26easily and I think in 20 years or a lot sooner  than that you're going to basically be in a
281. 27:34world where kids will be able to just describe the  things that they want and build incredibly complex
282. 27:39pieces of software so it's um in that world  are kids going to be not struggling I I don't
283. 27:47think so I think that they're going to be just  expressing their creativity and and it'll it'll
284. 27:51be this kind of constant iterative feedback loop  around like okay like yeah I you know took a few
285. 27:59minutes to describe this thing and like yeah this  whole like amazing virtual world was created that
286. 28:05I can have see on my glasses or whatever but like  these things are not exactly what I want them to
287. 28:10be so now I need to like go back and edit them it  just I don't know I think that there's always
288. 28:15more. Another way to get this - it's one of the things  that I think makes makes people so good. It just
289. 28:21there's there's always more to do. We'll always  find the struggle? Yeah. Another way to get at this
290. 28:25is if you if you play this out to make the  tools even better in like 10 years let's say
291. 28:30your kids are in high school are there ways that  you would want them using AI because you think it
292. 28:35would accelerate them intellectually and ways that  you would advocate for them not to use it or
293. 28:42things that you would have concerns about? I mean  I think that there's some things that you need
294. 28:46to be able to do yourself. I think that's a lot of  the basic fear that people have around this is
295. 28:52that while we're building these amazing tools we  get away from this self-confidence and ability of
296. 29:01being able to do like this basic stuff yourself so  it's like all right you have a calculator but it's
297. 29:08still good to be able to do kind of basic math in  your head because there are a lot of things that
298. 29:13come up throughout the day that you just want to  have a general numeracy around right that often
299. 29:19they're not expressed in numerical terms but just  in terms of understanding trends or understanding
300. 29:25arguments that people are making, you you kind of  need to understand the shape of how numbers come
301. 29:30together and so I think one of the big debates  is like should we still teach our kids to program
302. 29:35computers even though you're going to have these tools in the future that are just so much
303. 29:42more powerful than anything that we have now to  produce incredibly complicated pieces of software.
304. 29:49I think the answer to that is probably yes  because I think teaching someone how to code
305. 29:55is teaching them a way to think rigorously and  that even if they're not doing most of the code
306. 30:01production I think it's important that you kind of  have the ability to think in that way and I think
307. 30:06it's going to just make you generally a better  thinker and better person so yeah maybe that's
308. 30:14like this generation's version of calculators  it's like so you you want to you want to use the
309. 30:18calculator but you'll also want to be able to  generally do without it. Other ones like language
310. 30:25I don't know I mean different people can come  out I think this is one of the interesting
311. 30:28questions about parenting these days is like is  is just kind of like what what's important to
312. 30:34teach your your kids and in an era where so much  is going to change over the the time that they're
313. 30:40even in school. Language I think you can make  similar arguments. I think there's a lot of it's
314. 30:45like it's probably going to be less functionally  relevant in the future to learn multiple languages
315. 30:49but it sort of helps you think in different ways, you know I found from the languages that I've
316. 30:54studied that a lot of it you learn about  the structure of your own language, you can
317. 31:00you know you also learn about the culture right  because so much of how things are expressed in
318. 31:04different places is tied to the nuance and the  history of kind of what how so I think
319. 31:09like you that's all valuable and interesting  stuff to get into but then I don't know at the
320. 31:15same time we only have so many hours in the day  so people need to prioritize what they're going
321. 31:18to learn and it may be that okay in a world with  perfect translation which by the way we basically
322. 31:23just announced on the Ray Ban Metas that now  you're going to be able to just like you go to
323. 31:28countries yeah we're starting out with just a few  languages but we'll roll it out to more and you
324. 31:33know you'll be you could be traveling anywhere and  you have your glasses and they just translate in
325. 31:36real time in your ear. So it's wild, yeah so  I think people are going to need to choose what
326. 31:42what what they want to focus on going forward.  How do the developments that we've been talking
327. 31:48about in AI intersect with social media and the  platforms that most people use today? There's a
328. 31:54future where there's images and generated text  and maybe AI influencers. How does generative
329. 32:03AI change how social media feels in the future?  Yeah I mean I think that that's a really
330. 32:10deep one. You know there's already been one  big shift which is that social media started
331. 32:16out as people primarily interacting with their  friends and now it is you know at least half of
332. 32:23the content is basically people interacting  with creators or content that's not created
333. 32:28by people who they kind of personally know so  we sort sort of already have that paradigm and
334. 32:36I think AI is probably going to accelerate that. It  will give all these people additional tools right
335. 32:42so your friends will create kind of funnier memes  and more interesting content um that'll come from
336. 32:49a lot of different ways. I think some of it will  be okay your friends have glasses and they capture
337. 32:54a bunch of stuff and before they might have not  been able bble to edit it to make it interesting
338. 32:59or maybe it was just too much work or they didn't  even realize that they captured something amazing
339. 33:02but now the AI is like hey I like made this thing  for you out of your content um it's like okay
340. 33:07that's awesome like people will enjoy that. Creators  obviously kind of much more specialized skills
341. 33:15are going to be able to use even more advanced AI  tools to make more compelling content but then I
342. 33:20think that there will be a bunch of kind of green  field type stuff where maybe in the future there
343. 33:27will be content that is purely generated by AI  by the system personalized for you maybe it's
344. 33:35summarizing things that are out there that that  are going to be interesting maybe it's um just
345. 33:41producing something funny that makes you laugh  this is going to be like a very kind of deep zone
346. 33:46that there's a lot to to experiment with.  I think there are going to be AI creators as well,
347. 33:52as creators building AI versions of themselves,  I mean that's a thing that we just showed too
348. 33:58at Connect is basically I mean if you're a Creator one of the big challenges is
349. 34:02like all right there are only so many hours  in the day and your community probably has a
350. 34:08nearly unlimited demand to interact with you and  you want to interact with them because you're
351. 34:11trying to grow your community. I mean that's both  socially and from a business perspective that's
352. 34:16sort of you know growing the community is an  important part of what every creator does so
353. 34:20okay if we can make it so that each creator  can basically make an like an AI artifact
354. 34:28that their community can interact with people be  clear it's not the actual creator themselves but
355. 34:32it's almost like a piece of digital art that  you're producing like an interactive sculpture
356. 34:37or something that it's like it's like you train  it to here's the context that I wanted to have
357. 34:41here's the topics I wanted to communicate  on here's stuff that I wanted to stay away
358. 34:45from you're giving your community something to  interact with when you can't be there to to kind
359. 34:51of answer all the questions and I think that's  going to be super compelling so there's like
360. 34:57these interesting things but I think it's I AI  it's kind of like the internet in a way where
361. 35:04it's probably going to change almost every field  and almost every feature of every application that
362. 35:11we use um it seems sort of hyperbolic to say that  but I do think that's true and it's just hard to
363. 35:18sort of enumerate all the different things up  front but I think that over the next 5 to 10
364. 35:23years we're just going to explore the impacts  in each of these areas and it's going to be
365. 35:27like an amazing amount of innovation and really  exciting. I feel two things simultaneously when
366. 35:32you say that. I feel both like I really want  to be optimistic about the future of these
367. 35:38platforms and I obviously have gained so much from  an enormous pace of change right like everything
368. 35:45that we're doing now and what I actually feel is  worried. I feel some specific concerns around the
369. 35:54way that you know I might communicate with an  audience and the way that they might respond to
370. 35:57that or the way that human communication might  change but also more generalized just sort of
371. 36:02fear of the pace of change and and worry and I  don't think I'm alone in that feeling. Yeah and
372. 36:07you're supposed to be the optimist! I know! And I'm  curious like how you talk to people who feel that
373. 36:14way. What concerns do you feel are most legitimate  and what do you feel most misunderstood? I think
374. 36:21the pace of change is always a concerning  thing right it's there is a lot of uncertainty
375. 36:30about how how things will go in the future and  we're all going to get really amazing new tools
376. 36:35to do both our hobbies and our jobs and they'll make it so we can do better work and
377. 36:44have better lives but at least on the professional  side it's going to be our responsibility to keep
378. 36:48up with that or else it's going to be difficult  for us to compete with other people who are
379. 36:53doing a good job of kind of keeping up with  the new trends. So I get it. I mean I think
380. 36:58you know especially in the you know line of of  work of being a creator and it's a very sort of
381. 37:04competitive space, I don't think that like creators  necessarily think about it as competitive but it
382. 37:07is right it's like it's you know and um and so I  get it. I think that this is going to make it so
383. 37:16that like the quality of work that people produce  and how interesting it is and how much they can
384. 37:20communicate and like really efficiently is is  just going to kind of go through the roof but
385. 37:28but when you're staring down a set of changes like  you know that there's some big change coming and
386. 37:35you don't know what it is that's always a time of  anxiety so I get it. If I take my creator hat
387. 37:42off and I'm just a person who is youngish starting  out my career-ish, starting out building a family,
388. 37:51how would you advise someone like me to prepare  well for the future that we're headed toward
389. 38:00to be able to learn new skills now or just think  about this future in an educated way? Yeah I mean
390. 38:09I just think maintaining curiosity about things is  is important. I do think we can overstate to what
391. 38:16extent the next 10 years is going to be sort of  different from the last 10 or 15. I mean a ton of
392. 38:21stuff changed over the last 10 or 15 years too.  It's not like this is the only time in history
393. 38:25where there's some technology it's going to make  it so there's new opportunities and things change
394. 38:30the internet coming into maturity and everyone  having smartphones has already rewired things
395. 38:36dramatically and I mean maybe the next period will  be a somewhat bigger change or maybe it won't I
396. 38:44think it'll feel different to different people but I don't think this is like going from zero to
397. 38:51one it's not like okay everything's just kind of  been normal and now like now it's about to change
398. 38:55it's like the technology of evolves over time and  and like the opportunities that we have evolve and
399. 39:01improve and I think that's like the people who  do well I think are are people who are generally
400. 39:06curious about it and and dig in and and try  to use it to live better lives rather than the
401. 39:14people who who basically you know try to fight it  in in some way. One thing that I really want to ask
402. 39:23you about is open source. Yeah. I think imagine that  we're talking to an audience that has maybe heard
403. 39:30that term but doesn't have any real idea of how  that might impact them in the development of AI.
404. 39:37How would you explain the reasonable debate  that people in your field are having about this
405. 39:41right now? Well I think there are two pieces. I mean  so what does open source mean? It means that people
406. 39:47can build a lot of different things right so at  a high level I look at the vision that a bunch of
407. 39:52companies have right so Open AI, Google, they're  building an AI right like one AI that I think
408. 39:59in general they're like okay this is going to be  it's like you're going to use they think you're
409. 40:03going to use Gemini or ChatGPT for like all the  different things that you want to interact with
410. 40:07and at a high level that's just not how I think  the world is going to go. I think we're going to
411. 40:11have a lot of different AI systems just like we're  going to have we have a lot of different apps.
412. 40:17I think in the future every business just like  they have a website and a phone number and an
413. 40:22email address and a social media account is also  going to have an AI that can interact with with
414. 40:28their customers to help them sell things to help  them do support. I think a lot of creators will
415. 40:34have their own AIs right I think like a lot  of people will interact with with a bunch of
416. 40:39different things. There's a question of okay do you  want a future that's fundamentally kind of very
417. 40:45concentrated and where you're interacting with  kind of one system for everything or do you want
418. 40:50one where a lot of different people are building a lot of different AIs and systems just kind
419. 40:56of like you probably didn't want there to be you  know just one app or just one website. It's like a
420. 41:00richer world when there's a diversity of different  things so that's one piece is is just giving
421. 41:05people the ability to build it themselves and  what open source does it makes it that everyone
422. 41:09can take and modify the model and build stuff on  top of it which is different from the kind
423. 41:15of closed and centralized approach. The safety  debate is a specific part of this which is in a
424. 41:26world where AI gets smarter and smarter, what's the  way that we have the highest chance of of having a
425. 41:35a a kind of positive future and and not having  a lot of the safety concerns? And I think some
426. 41:40people think that if we keep the model closed  and don't give it to a lot of developers that
427. 41:48should make it safer because then you don't get  bad developers doing bad things with the model.
428. 41:59Historically I think what we've seen with open  source is actually the opposite which is that
429. 42:05this is not the first open source project right  I mean this is obviously this has been a thing in
430. 42:09the industry for decades and I think what we've  traditionally seen is that open source software
431. 42:14is safer and more secure largely because you put  it out there more people can scrutinize it because
432. 42:20they can see all parts of the system and then  there are inevitably issues with any software
433. 42:27there are bugs there are security issues and  initially with open source people thought hey if
434. 42:32you're putting the software out there and there  are holes in it isn't everyone just going to go
435. 42:36exploit those holes and especially the bad  guys but it turned out that it sort of in this
436. 42:41counterintuitive way that by making by adding more  scrutiny to the systems the holes became apparent
437. 42:49quicker and then were fixed and then people  roll out a new version just like we roll out
438. 42:52a new version of our models right Llama 3, Llama  3.1, Llama 3.2 everyone upgrades, so I think the
439. 42:59same thing is going to happen here I think it's  sort of this counterintuitive thing where even
440. 43:04though I I think there's some concern around all  right are bad guys going to do bad things with
441. 43:12these models. I actually think you just get a kind  of smarter and safer model for everyone the more
442. 43:18it's rolled out and the more kind of scrutiny  is on it and then part of that is we get
443. 43:23feedback and we make the model safer so that is  we roll it out to to more people it's safer
444. 43:27for more people to use. So I think that the history  of open source in the software industry generally
445. 43:33would suggest that open source is going to lead  to a more prosperous and safer future. Our show
446. 43:39is called Huge If True and what I mean by that is  kind of testing the most optimistic non-obvious
447. 43:46thing and so my question to you is what is the  biggest open genuine question on your mind right
448. 43:51now? In which field? You're in so many! I am  particularly curious about the combination of
449. 44:07AI and hardware but I realize that we've covered  a lot so I'm curious the direction you'd take this
450. 44:12on a question that occupies you right now. Gosh  I mean I think maybe one that's a little more
451. 44:17AI specific is there a current set of methods  that seem to be scaling very well right so with
452. 44:25past AI architecture you could kind of feed an  AI system a certain amount of data and and use
453. 44:32a certain amount of compute but eventually it  hit a plateau and one of the interesting things
454. 44:37about these new transformer based architectures  over the last you know 5 to 10 years is that we
455. 44:44haven't found the end yet. So that leads to this  dynamic where Llama 3 you know we could train on
456. 44:52you know 10 to 20,000 gpus, Llama 4 we could train  on you know more more than 100,000 gpus, Llama 5
457. 44:59we can plan to scale even further and there's just  an interesting question of how far that goes. It's
458. 45:06totally possible that at some point we just like  hit a limit and just like previous systems there's
459. 45:11an asymptote and it doesn't keep on growing but  it's also possible that that limit is not going
460. 45:17to happen anytime soon and that we're going to be  able to keep on just building more clusters and
461. 45:24generating more you know synthetic data train the  systems and that they're just going to keep on
462. 45:30getting more and more useful for people for quite  a while to come and it's a really big and high
463. 45:36stakes question I think for for the company is  because we're basically making these bets on how
464. 45:42much infrastructure to build out for the future  and this is like hundreds of billions of dollars
465. 45:48of infrastructure so like I'm clearly betting  that this is going to keep scaling for a while
466. 45:54but it's one of the big questions I think in the  field because it is possible that it doesn't. You
467. 45:59know that obviously would lead to a very different  world where it's I mean I'm sure people still
468. 46:04figure it out eventually just need to make some  new fundamental improvements to the architecture
469. 46:09in some way but that might be a somewhat longer  trajectory for okay maybe you know the the kind
470. 46:15of fundamental AI advances slow down for a bit  and we just take some time to build new products
471. 46:21around this or it could be the case and that's  what I'm betting on that the fundamental AI will
472. 46:26just continue advancing for quite a while and that  we're going to get both a new set of products that
473. 46:31are just really compelling in all these ways  and that the technology landscape and what's
474. 46:35possible will just continue being dynamic over  like a 20-year period and that's probably what
475. 46:42I'd guess is going to happen but it I think it's  one of the bigger questions in the industry and
476. 46:46kind of for technology across the world today.  Is there anything else that you want to say? I
477. 46:52don't know! Awesome. We're good. Amazing yeah thank  you so much for doing this. Yeah no thank you...