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The Full Johan Norberg: Sweden’s “Socialism,” the Loneliness "Epidemic,” Degrowth and other Myths — Transcript

by John Stossel · 6,211 words · 1,237 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00Lots of people just hate capitalism.
0:02They want socialism.
0:04Socialism is having a moment
0:06in American politics right now.
0:07Socialism is totally on trend.
0:10Especially among young people.
0:12The kids love socialism.
0:13I think socialism is great.
0:15Why?
0:16Because they’re told
0:17capitalism hurts the poor.
0:19The rich getting richer,
0:20and the poor getting poorer.
0:22But that’s just not true.
0:23The poor get richer too.
0:26Norway!
0:27It’s as socialist as they come.
0:29And here’s another myth:
0:30People say Scandinavia is socialist.
0:33Instead of Cuba or China, think Sweden.
0:36Look to countries like Denmark,
0:38like Sweden.
0:39But Sweden isn’t socialist.
0:41Some time ago, pre-beard,
0:42I made this video about that
0:44with Swedish author, Johan Norberg.
0:46But there was more
0:47to that interview and
0:48our more recent one
0:49on his new book,
0:50The Capitalist Manifesto.
0:52So, here’s our full discussion about
0:55capitalism, the Left’s push for “de-growth,”
0:58and “Scandinavian socialism.”
1:01All I hear is that Sweden
1:02is this socialist paradise.
1:04Well, we tried with something that
1:06was similar to socialism
1:07for a brief interlude in Swedish history.
1:09In the 1970’s and the 1980’s.
1:12And that's the period that
1:13even socialists in Sweden now say,
1:15"We overreached.”
1:17What happened?
1:18Well in the 1970’s and 80’s,
1:19that's the moment when
1:20the Swedish government
1:21started to expand dramatically.
1:23Taxes rose,
1:25regulation was all over the place.
1:28And that's the moment in time
1:30when Sweden began to lag behind
1:31the other countries dramatically.
1:33There were no new net jobs
1:34created in the private sector.
1:36No new international companies.
1:39Sweden lagged behind
1:42to the extent that we went from
1:43being the 3rd richest country
1:45on the planet to the
1:4513th richest country on the planet.
1:4813th isn't bad.
1:49Doesn't sound like a crisis.
1:51But it makes it difficult to fund
1:52all these policies that Sweden had.
1:54So, they started to print money.
1:56So, we had a debt and
1:57inflation-fueled boom that
1:58ended in a terrible crisis.
2:00And to defend the Swedish currency,
2:02the central bank even had interest rates
2:04at 500% for a while.
2:06What made it a crisis?
2:08Well suddenly, all those systems
2:09that people depended on,
2:11the pension system,
2:13health care and so on,
2:14didn't get the funding they needed.
2:17So, there were waiting lines
2:18to get health care,
2:19people couldn't get the pension
2:21that they thought that they
2:22depended on for the future.
2:24So, everybody suddenly realized that
2:25something else has to be done.
2:27And even the socialist-leaning politicians agreed?
2:31The socialist Minister of Finance
2:32in Sweden said that,
2:34"Our policies have been unsustainable,
2:37sometimes absurd, and the
2:38tax system is perverse."
2:40So even they wanted to dismantle
2:42the big government that
2:43they had built.
2:44So, what happened?
2:45Well, early 1990’s,
2:47we had a wide agreement,
2:48from the left to the right,
2:49that we have to reform the economy.
2:51Open up new markets,
2:52liberalize product markets so
2:54businesses could start in new areas,
2:57do away with occupational licenses
2:59and things like that.
3:01Lower taxes, reform the pension system
3:04so that it wasn't unsustainable,
3:06partly privatize the pension system.
3:09Privatize the pension system.
3:11That terrifies people.
3:12Yeah, it does.
3:13It means you're not guaranteed
3:14money from the government.
3:16Exactly, it's only a defined contribution,
3:18you don't know what you will get.
3:20And obviously that scares
3:21people who wanted a lot.
3:23But when they realized that
3:24the alternative was that the
3:25whole pension system would collapse,
3:27they thought that this
3:28was much better than nothing.
3:29But Sweden is still cited
3:31as the socialist paradise.
3:33When you look at our policies,
3:35we do have a bigger welfare state
3:36than the U.S.,
3:37higher taxes than the U.S.,
3:38but in other areas,
3:40when it comes to free markets,
3:41when it comes to competition,
3:42when it comes to free trade,
3:44Sweden is actually more free market.
3:46If you look at the latest statistics
3:48from the Heritage Foundation
3:49in the Wall Street Journal,
3:50Sweden is apparently more
3:52free market than the United States.
3:54There's no minimum wage.
3:56Government doesn't control production.
3:58Yeah, and we've also tried to
4:00open up the welfare state
4:02to private providers,
4:03because we've realized that
4:04we've got problems with
4:05a nationalized health care system,
4:07so we need to, well,
4:09privatize one of the biggest hospitals
4:11in Stockholm and open up
4:13to other private companies.
4:15And in the education system,
4:16because it didn't work,
4:18it didn't work very well.
4:19So, we needed competition,
4:20innovation, new ideas.
4:22So, we rolled out a
4:23national school voucher system
4:24so that private schools got
4:25the same funding as the public ones.
4:27From The View—
4:28Name one country that socialism
4:29has ever worked and also–
4:31Sweden.
4:31First of all, socialism means
4:33the government owning the
4:34means of production.
4:36Sweden has never had that.
4:37The socialists realized in Sweden
4:40that they need big business,
4:41they need multinational companies
4:43to fund the welfare state.
4:45So, it was always a free market
4:47to that extent, and they,
4:49the big businesses even got
4:50specific benefits and privileges
4:52because the economy was
4:54so dependent on them.
4:55Jim Carrey—
4:56I grew up in Canada, okay.
4:57We had socialized medicine.
4:59And I am, I’m here to tell you
5:02that this bullshit line that you get
5:04on all of the political shows from people,
5:07is that it's a failure.
5:08“The system is a failure in Canada.”
5:10It is not a failure in Canada.
5:11I never waited for anything in my life.
5:13I chose my own doctors.
5:14My mother never paid
5:15for a prescription.
5:17It was fantastic.
5:18He must have been lucky.
5:20That's great.
5:21But in the recent Swedish election,
5:23the top priority for voters
5:25in the polls was not
5:26crime or immigration or the economy,
5:29it was healthcare and the fact that
5:31people had to wait in line
5:33for treatment for such a long time.
5:35Specifically, when it comes to
5:36cancer treatment.
5:37For certain types of cancer,
5:38you have to wait for more than
5:40200 days to get treatment.
5:42And that tells you something about
5:44the problem of rationing health care
5:47by just not giving people
5:49what they need.
5:49They’ve got a booming economy
5:52that is growing at twice the rate
5:55of the American economy.
5:56They’ve got surpluses.
5:57They've got more people working.
5:59And they have a society that works.
6:01Well, everybody has to work in Sweden
6:03to fund the welfare state
6:04because it's so large.
6:05So, we really have to do
6:07hard work to get people into jobs.
6:09But the way we do that is
6:11by opening up more markets,
6:12having fewer license requirements,
6:14occupational licenses,
6:16the kind of things that
6:17America has to stop people
6:18from entering new jobs
6:20and so, in a way, we have
6:23a successful economy,
6:24but that's partly because we're
6:25free market to some extent.
6:27From your movie—
6:27It is a socialist economy.
6:31Volvos and socialized medicine.
6:35All those stereotypes are quite interesting.
6:38And many of them are
6:39stuck in the past.
6:40Volvo is now a Chinese company.
6:42What does that mean
6:44from a classical liberal point of view?
6:46Well, it means that for a while,
6:48the Swedish economy was doing
6:49so bad and the currency
6:51was going south.
6:52So, everything was quite cheap
6:54so that Chinese and others
6:55could buy our big companies.
6:57And that was incredibly problematic
7:00at that time for the reason that,
7:03not that they were
7:04bought by someone else.
7:05It's in a way, in a sign of strength
7:06that they want to invest in our economy.
7:08But it's a problem if we don't
7:09grow the new companies like that.
7:11In around the turn of the millennium,
7:13we didn't have one company among
7:16the 50 biggest that had been created
7:18over the last 25 years.
7:21So, they were all created
7:22during the, sort of,
7:22small government, laissez-faire era.
7:25But after the reforms,
7:26suddenly we've made,
7:28we’ve reformed the economy,
7:29opened up new markets,
7:30and then suddenly we've got
7:31the new companies in telecoms,
7:33in tech and so on.
7:34And is this just Sweden or is this
7:37also true for Denmark, Norway?
7:39Well, Norway's got oil money.
7:41Yeah, Norway is always a
7:42strange exception because they
7:43have all that oil.
7:44So, unless American socialists
7:46have the plan to strike oil everywhere,
7:49that's not a relevant example.
7:51But Denmark shrank its government too?
7:53Yes.
7:53Finland? Iceland?
7:55Yeah.
7:55Astrid Lindgren, 102% in taxes.
7:59How is this even possible?
8:00Yeah, 102% taxes,
8:02too much even for the socialists.
8:04But how can it be more than 100%?
8:06Yeah, it's quite absurd.
8:07She was this famous author of
8:11children's books, like
8:12"Pippi Longstocking" and so on,
8:13and a longtime Social Democrat.
8:15She found out that
8:16when she sold another book,
8:19she ended up with a marginal tax rate.
8:21She ended up in a higher threshold
8:23that increased the taxes totally
8:26so that she had to pay
8:28for selling more books.
8:29And she wrote this angry essay
8:31about a witch who was
8:33quite mean and vicious,
8:34but not at all as vicious as
8:36the Swedish tax authorities.
8:37How can you have
8:38more than 100% tax bill?
8:41Yeah, well, no one got that math.
8:42And actually, the Swedish
8:45socialist finance minister at that time
8:46said, "No, she's wrong.
8:48She must've, she's bad at math."
8:51But actually, he was the one
8:52who was wrong.
8:53The Swedish tax system
8:54at that time was so
8:55perverse and strange that
8:57the Swedish population just said,
8:59"Enough, we can't do this."
9:01And even the socialists said,
9:02"This is perverse. We can't do this."
9:04So, for every extra dollar she earned,
9:06she'd owe $1.02?
9:08That was too much,
9:09even for the socialists.
9:12We have some very interesting reforms
9:14on letting private enterprises
9:16into welfare, schools, hospitals,
9:20healthcare, elderly care,
9:22that have worked out quite well.
9:25Private enterprise runs schools, hospitals?
9:28Yeah.
9:29Because we realized in Sweden
9:31that with these government monopolies,
9:33nothing happens.
9:34We don't get the innovation
9:36that we get when we have
9:37competition in other areas.
9:39So, the way to create competition
9:41was to allow private businesses
9:42to start new schools,
9:43with new ideas,
9:44with new teaching models,
9:46and then allow families to
9:49pick a school themselves.
9:50Which forces schools to become better.
9:53And one of the results that
9:54we've seen is not just that
9:56the private schools are better
9:57than the public ones,
9:58but even the public schools
10:00in the vicinity of private schools,
10:02they often improve,
10:03because they have to,
10:04to get then,
10:06pupils and the funding that
10:07comes with them.
10:08To compete.
10:09You see that everywhere else
10:10in the economy.
10:11If you're forced to compete,
10:13you have to step up,
10:14you have to be better.
10:15Why not in the welfare services?
10:17Today the health care system
10:19is not primarily run by
10:20the national government?
10:21No, we don't have a,
10:23sort of, single payer system
10:24and the kind of thing that
10:25American socialists think
10:26we do in Sweden.
10:28This is based on the
10:29regional level in Sweden and,
10:31therefore, also funded by
10:33local taxes primarily,
10:35which is a flat tax.
10:36And then the national government
10:39steps in and has some extra funding
10:41for specific things that
10:42they want to do.
10:43But this is primarily a regional issue.
10:46But government run?
10:47Yes.
10:49Government run, but quite often
10:51private businesses in this sector,
10:54funded by government money.
10:56What can America learn from Sweden?
10:58Well, you can learn both from
11:00the good and from the bad.
11:03The bad experiences we've had
11:06and others should learn from is,
11:08don't get cocky.
11:09I mean, even though the economy
11:11might work very well,
11:12you have all this money,
11:13you're on top of the world,
11:15you can't turn your backs to the,
11:18to the well, to the creation of wealth.
11:20That's what we did in
11:21the 1970’s and 1980’s
11:22and just started to redistribute
11:25and make strange policy decisions
11:27that ran counter to any
11:29kind of economic orthodoxy.
11:32And that almost killed
11:35the Swedish economy,
11:36it almost ruined us completely.
11:38So, you have to continue to
11:41create wealth in order to use it.
11:45The good thing to be learned
11:46from Sweden is how you
11:47reform the economy.
11:48I think it's important
11:49for the U.S. then,
11:51to learn from how you
11:53can introduce competition
11:54and choice in government services,
11:57like education, for example,
11:58if you want a better future for our kids.
12:01You can learn how to reform
12:04those systems that we all rely on.
12:06The pension systems, social security,
12:08things that are unsustainable with
12:10the kind of demographic future we have,
12:12unless we change this into
12:14more of a defined contribution,
12:16rather than defined benefits.
12:19Low-income earners in Sweden
12:20pay a lot more than
12:22low-income earners in America.
12:24So, despite the fact that
12:25Sweden looks like
12:26sort of a socialist country
12:28which taxes the rich
12:29exorbitantly high,
12:30the truth is the opposite.
12:32Really?
12:32This is the dirty little secret
12:34about the Swedish tax system.
12:36We don't take from the rich
12:38and give to the poor.
12:39We squeeze the poor,
12:41because they are loyal taxpayers.
12:42They don't move to Monaco
12:44and they don't dodge.
12:45They don't have tax lawyers.
12:47So, we have, most of our
12:49income tax come from a flat,
12:51regional tax at around 30%.
12:53Even on the poor,
12:54even on the middle class.
12:56And then, we also have
12:58a system of the A.T.
12:59A consumption tax at 25%,
13:02where the poor pay
13:02exactly the same amount
13:04as the rich do.
13:05So, all of this—
13:06And it’s quite a bit.
13:07It's about 50-60%
13:09once you're earning $37,000.
13:12But it's interesting that
13:13the Swedish tax system is
13:14less progressive than the American.
13:17If you look at the
13:18whole situation in the U.S.,
13:21the 10% of the richest households,
13:24they pay around 45%
13:26of all the income taxes.
13:27In Sweden they only pay 27%.
13:30And the reason is that
13:31Swedish socialists realized,
13:33you can have a big government
13:34or you can force the rich
13:36to pay for it all.
13:37You have to pick one,
13:38you can't do both.
13:40Because if the rich and the
13:41big businesses leave the country,
13:42then we have nothing.
13:43All these celebrities and politicians
13:46say, "Sweden is socialist.
13:48A socialist success."
13:50Well, Sweden is not socialist,
13:51because the government doesn't
13:52own the means of productions.
13:53To see that, you have to go to
13:54Venezuela or to Cuba or North Korea.
13:57But we did have a period in
13:58the 1970’s and 1980’s when we had
14:01something that resembled socialism.
14:03A big government that taxed
14:04and spent heavily.
14:06And that's the period in
14:07Swedish history when our economy
14:08was going south dramatically.
14:11And even socialists nowadays say,
14:13"That was awful.
14:14That was a terrible failure that
14:16almost killed our economy."
14:18Unfortunately, today, most socialists
14:20still don’t accept the lessons of history.
14:22that real socialism has failed
14:25everywhere it’s been tried.
14:27But we who understand the
14:28benefits of free and competitive markets
14:30shouldn’t just point out
14:31socialism’s problems.
14:33We ought to make the case
14:34for why capitalism works.
14:36So, I was happy that Norberg
14:38has written this new book,
14:39The Capitalist Manifesto.
14:41The subtitle says,
14:43“The global free market
14:44will save the world.”
14:46That's pretty grandiose.
14:47But it is saving the world
14:49bit by bit, step-by-step every day.
14:52Every day, over the past 20 years,
14:54more than 130,000 people were
14:56lifted out of extreme poverty.
14:58Every day for 20 years.
15:00And it happened in societies
15:02that began to open up their economies
15:04and integrate into trade
15:07and global investments.
15:09And that's what capitalism does.
15:12That's not just a fancy theory,
15:14it's something real that is happening.
15:16And it's also something that
15:17we should keep in mind every time
15:18somebody talks about how we
15:20should have more tariffs and
15:21protectionism and regulations,
15:23that every kind of intervention like that
15:27limits what human beings
15:28can do with their lives.
15:30And that hurts opportunity
15:32and it increases poverty.
15:34And we have to save the world
15:36from such interventions.
15:38Elon Musk recommended your book
15:40on Twitter and that's gotten
15:42millions of views.
15:43Congratulations.
15:44But, he says, especially chapter four.
15:46So, I look at chapter four.
15:48It's titled “In Defense of the 1%.”
15:51So, he only likes it because
15:53you're defending rich people like him.
15:56The question is,
15:57how did he get rich?
15:59How does someone get rich?
16:01That's more interesting than
16:02how much money they've got.
16:04In every society, we have people
16:05who control resources.
16:07Did they take them
16:07from somebody else?
16:08That's bad.
16:09We should stop that.
16:10But in a capitalist society,
16:13you get rich by enriching others,
16:15by producing electric cars,
16:18for example, or new
16:19technological capabilities and
16:21making them come down
16:22in price and making sure that
16:24more people have access to them.
16:26In that case, if they get rich
16:28because we hand over our money
16:30because we think those
16:31goods and services are
16:32more valuable to us,
16:33then it's a great thing
16:34that they are rich,
16:36because they got rich
16:37by helping us.
16:38The Nobel laureate William Nordhaus,
16:40he made a back of the envelope calculation
16:42of how much does rich entrepreneurs,
16:46who introduced new technologies
16:48and goods and services in the economy,
16:50capture of the value that they create.
16:53And he came up with the conclusion
16:55that they get to keep some 2%
16:58of the value that they create,
17:00which means that the rest of us
17:02who just laid on the couch
17:04and watched Netflix,
17:05we got 98% because we got
17:07increased purchasing power.
17:08Musk has got billions of dollars.
17:10He only kept 2% of each transaction?
17:13The greatest value of new
17:16goods and services and technologies
17:18does not come in the
17:20dollars and cents that we
17:21hand over to the producer.
17:23It comes in how they enrich our lives.
17:25How we use these goods
17:26and how they keep
17:27coming down in price and
17:29become much more accessible
17:31to more people.
17:32Constantly making sure that
17:33what was luxury goods
17:34a couple of decades ago,
17:36are suddenly something that
17:39most of us can afford.
17:40One of the most astonishing statistics
17:42about the U.S. is that,
17:45people who fall below the
17:46poverty line in the U.S.,
17:48now has a greater chance of
17:50owning amenities like refrigerators,
17:53air conditioners, washing machines,
17:57dishwashers, dryers,
17:58and of course cell phones
17:59and computers than the
18:01average American did in 1970.
18:04That's the greatest voluntary,
18:07spontaneous redistribution
18:09of resources that exists.
18:11The fact that all those luxury goods
18:14come down in price and
18:15are suddenly accessible to most people.
18:18The headlines, “A mass loneliness crisis.”
18:20Loneliness is an epidemic.
18:22We are absolutely in a loneliness crisis.
18:24Nothing to back it up.
18:26Well, yes, there is an
18:27epidemic of headlines
18:29saying that there is
18:30a loneliness epidemic,
18:32but there's no empirical data
18:34that actually shows that we
18:35feel more lonely now than
18:37we did in the past.
18:38This is often based on just
18:40looking at different generations
18:42and notices that yes,
18:44the youngest feel like they're
18:46more lonely than the rest of us,
18:48but the question is,
18:49are they more lonely than
18:50we were when we were young?
18:52And so, you have to
18:53compare like with like.
18:54So, young today compared
18:56with young back then,
18:57old today compared to old back then.
18:59And then, there is no such
19:02increase in loneliness.
19:04Which is interesting because
19:05I would also think that it's
19:06less of a stigma to tell people
19:08that you feel lonely nowadays
19:10than it was in the 1950’s or 70’s.
19:12But more people live alone now.
19:15I would think that would
19:16make more people lonelier.
19:19That's correct.
19:19More people live alone and
19:23there are also instances of
19:25people spending less time
19:27surrounded by other people.
19:30But the interesting thing,
19:31and this is what they never
19:33tell you in the reports in the media,
19:36is that people who live alone
19:38and spend less time with,
19:40surrounded by other people
19:41are also more happy with
19:43those relationships.
19:45So, it seems to be something interesting
19:46that happens when you choose
19:47your own relationships,
19:49when you choose your own partners
19:51and colleagues and friends
19:53to associate with.
19:54It's not necessarily a better world,
19:56a more harmonious relationship
19:59when you're forced into
20:00traditional overcrowding or
20:03forced to spend time with people
20:05because there are no options.
20:07And yet these capitalist media, Forbes,
20:12“Capitalism keeps people isolated
20:14because of support for personal gain.”
20:17This talk about how we're all
20:19getting lonelier in capitalist societies,
20:23but the question is,
20:25if this was the result of capitalism,
20:26then surely we would have
20:27more loneliness in capitalist,
20:29free market societies.
20:31But every survey, every poll,
20:34we're looking at shows that
20:36people say that they're less lonely
20:37in the most market-oriented societies.
20:40There is even a human freedom index
20:42produced by Fraser and Cato Institute,
20:45which measures how free a society is,
20:48how economically free it is.
20:51And it tells you that
20:52on this 10-point scale,
20:53if you increase freedom by one point,
20:56you reduce loneliness levels
20:58by six percentage points according to
21:01what people tell the pollster.
21:03And that's interesting because there's
21:04no such correlation when it comes to
21:06what the left and the right talks about,
21:09that they want a more equal society
21:11or a more religious society.
21:13There's no correlation between
21:14religion and equality and loneliness.
21:17So actually, we need more capitalism
21:21and more personal freedom to
21:22compensate for the loneliness that
21:24apparently equality and religion produces.
21:27In your book you cite a survey
21:30which basically says this,
21:31which is surprising.
21:32They ask people,
21:33“Do you have someone you can
21:34count on in times of trouble?”
21:36And it turns out,
21:38in America and other capitalist countries,
21:42very few people say that,
21:44but in places like India and China,
21:46where I would think they'd have
21:47big families to count on,
21:50many more say they have no one.
21:52Yeah, it's the complete opposite
21:54of what people expect.
21:55They think that in traditional societies
21:57with enforced communities and collective policies,
22:02people would say that they have
22:04more people to trust on,
22:05more friends and more loyalty.
22:07But it's the complete opposite.
22:09It seems like in traditional
22:11and less market-based societies,
22:14between 20% to 30% to 40%
22:16say they have no one to count on
22:18if they need help.
22:19Whereas in the richest and
22:20most individualist societies,
22:22it's in the low single digits.
22:25And it tells you, I think that,
22:27enforced community doesn't really
22:29create community and solidarity.
22:32We have that in our past as well.
22:34Overcrowding and enforced relationships.
22:37That's not necessarily something
22:39that creates solidarity.
22:41Once upon a time, the most frequent crime,
22:44the most frequent violent crime,
22:47was children being
22:49violent to their parents.
22:51It seems like there's something
22:53in these voluntary relationships
22:56in modern market-oriented societies
22:58that creates more decent relationships.
23:00The material incentives of capitalists
23:02isolate us from nature,
23:03each other, and ourselves.
23:05It’s a miracle we aren't even lonelier.
23:07One of the huge sources
23:09of loneliness is capitalism.
23:11I understand why those charlatans
23:13get an audience, because yeah,
23:15at times we all feel lonely and
23:17life and relationships are hard.
23:20But do people think that
23:22any other non-market society
23:24has less of greed?
23:26Do they think that the
23:27Venezuelan oligarchs or
23:29Putin's friends or the
23:30Iranian Revolutionary Guard
23:32have less interest in personal gain?
23:35I think that North Korea is
23:37the place where the leaders
23:38are most interested in
23:39Rolex watches and limousines
23:42and fancy cognac, but it's the
23:43world’s least market-based society.
23:46So, everybody's into some sort of gain,
23:49but how do they get it?
23:50Well, in market-based societies,
23:52we only enrich ourselves
23:55by enriching others.
23:56By coming up with work, goods,
23:59services, technologies, opportunities
24:01that others are willing to pay for.
24:03So, it's actually a way of
24:05caring for other peoples,
24:06taking their interests and their
24:08demand into consideration.
24:09Whereas in Russia and Venezuela,
24:12they get that personal gain
24:13by taking it from others.
24:15I believe that socialism is
24:16the only way forward for humanity.
24:18It is moral. It is just.
24:21At this point, it is just common sense.
24:22With the boot of capitalism
24:24off your neck, you will be
24:25more able to enjoy freedom
24:27in every sense of the word.
24:28This is the traditional way of
24:30comparing the everyday existing capitalism
24:34with all its flaws,
24:35with this dream of how socialism
24:38would work in the best circumstances.
24:40But when you look at
24:41real existing socialism,
24:43it doesn't just produce
24:45poverty and breadlines,
24:47it produces much worse
24:49human relationship because
24:51it's a top-down system.
24:53It's a system where all the
24:54resources are distributed
24:56from the top command and
24:57control and what they get,
25:00you don't get.
25:01So, it's a zero-sum game.
25:02And we can see that impulse.
25:04Countries that have lived through communism,
25:07they express much less subjective wellbeing,
25:11much less trust in human relationship
25:13because they are the places where
25:15you have to exploit every meeting
25:17to get the resources you need.
25:19Not in capitalism.
25:20Capitalist values of
25:21ruthless greed and competition.
25:24Under capitalism, people compete.
25:26Sounds divisive.
25:28Sounds like it would pull us apart.
25:30It sounds divisive because we
25:32use that language about competition,
25:35but I would say that the most
25:36important aspect of capitalism
25:37is cooperation, voluntary cooperation.
25:41The fact that you constantly associate
25:44with and work with and
25:46do transactions with other people
25:48on a voluntary basis.
25:50And that's why you constantly hear,
25:52every time you buy something,
25:53this double thank you.
25:55You say, “Thank you.”
25:57And in the grocery, they thank you.
25:59It's weird you both say, “Thank you.”
26:01You both feel you won.
26:02Thank you.
26:03Thank you.
26:04Yeah. It's strange.
26:05I'm brought up with the idea that
26:06I should say thank you when
26:07someone has done me a service.
26:09But in the market economy,
26:11we do each other services constantly.
26:13That's how we get richer.
26:15No deal ever happens unless
26:16both parties think that they
26:18benefit more from doing that
26:20than not doing that.
26:22And that's a brand new
26:24innovation in human history.
26:26All traditional ways of organizing
26:29an economy, slavery, feudalism,
26:32communism, fascism,
26:33that's all based on getting resources
26:35by taking them from somebody else.
26:37That's divisive.
26:39What capitalism does,
26:40is that it forces us to think
26:41about what do the other guy want?
26:44What are strangers interested in?
26:47And then trying to find a way
26:48to help them because that helps us.
26:50You argue capitalism makes us generous?
26:54It sounds surprising,
26:55and this surprised the researchers as well.
26:59For many years, lots of researchers
27:01around the world have been looking at
27:03how generous are people when
27:04they're playing different economic games
27:07in a kind of social experiment.
27:08There are many real-life tests of that.
27:11This YouTube channel demonstrated
27:12a common experiment.
27:14Here the host gives people 20 dollars.
27:17You're not allowed to communicate
27:18what you're thinking.
27:19Talk about the decision you're making
27:21until you make it.
27:22You can divide this between yourself
27:23and a stranger in any way you like,
27:27but the only condition is,
27:28the other person has to accept the offer.
27:31If he refuses it—
27:32Then you get nothing.
27:33Then I get nothing.
27:34Then nobody gets anything.
27:35Then it's game over.
27:36So, you have to offer something
27:38to the other person.
27:39So at least give me a cent.
27:40That's what lots of people would
27:42expect that capitalists would do.
27:44But interestingly, that never happens,
27:47almost never happens anywhere.
27:50Because people have this
27:52intuitive sense for justice,
27:55even in a relationship with strangers,
27:57even if it's not a repeated game,
27:59they get closer to something like
28:02handing a third to even half
28:05to the other person.
28:06$8 dollars.
28:07$8 bucks.
28:08And the $12 is yours to keep.
28:10So, you've got $10 dollars here.
28:11I’ve got $10 dollars, yeah.
28:13Do you accept Sean’s offer of $10 dollars?
28:15I do accept Sean’s offer.
28:17The most interesting thing is that,
28:20where, in which countries,
28:21from Missouri to Ethiopia to Mongolia,
28:25in which countries and places are
28:27people most generous in their offers?
28:30You wouldn’t have guessed it.
28:31In capitalist societies.
28:33Because we're used to bargaining.
28:36We have to give something to get something.
28:38That's right.
28:39In places where people have
28:41more of buying and selling
28:44in their everyday lives.
28:46There are even studies in Ethiopia,
28:47among 53 different groups,
28:50trying to see who is most generous
28:52in a transaction in an economic game.
28:55And it shows you that the
28:56closer people live to marketplaces,
28:59the more generous they are.
29:01So, if they constantly
29:02buy and sell and negotiate,
29:04they begin to take
29:05other people's interests into consideration.
29:08That's what markets do.
29:10They do affect our character,
29:12but not in this way that the critics say
29:14that it makes us more divisive and aggressive
29:17and neglect the interests of others.
29:20It makes us more generous.
29:22And in fact, this is what Karl Marx
29:24and Friedrich Engels also said,
29:26that those authors of another manifesto.
29:28They notice that look,
29:30the friendlier you are,
29:32the more beneficial it is to you in capitalism.
29:35And obviously they saw that as a bad thing.
29:38It wasn’t real generosity,
29:40you were just being generous to help yourself.
29:43But I for one think it's better if
29:45we can get bad people to behave in
29:47good ways rather than good people
29:49behaving in bad ways,
29:50as we've seen in Marxist societies.
29:52Comparing willingness to donate
29:55blood, organs, bone marrow,
29:57give to charity, volunteer, help strangers.
30:01It's the capitalist countries that win?
30:04And this is a surprise to the researchers
30:07because so many people expect us,
30:09in capitalist individualist societies,
30:11to just elbow our way through life.
30:14But it seems like it's quite the opposite.
30:16It's in capitalist societies that we behave
30:18in the most generous way.
30:20And one reason could be that
30:21we're free to do that.
30:23We're not forced into self-sacrificial
30:26relationships with others.
30:28And if you are allowed to go about
30:32your own business and improve
30:34the lives of yourselves and of
30:37those around you,
30:38then you might be more likely to
30:40also extend a helping hand to others.
30:42Moving on to growth.
30:44Our addiction to economic growth is killing us.
30:46Growth is not killing us.
30:47It is saving us.
30:49It's an incredibly strong correlation
30:50between economic growth in a society,
30:53and a reduction in poverty,
30:55better health, less child mortality.
30:59Growth is most important for
31:01people who have the least.
31:03In poor countries, if you open up
31:05your economy, if you manage to
31:07grow by 4% annually over 20 years,
31:11that reduces poverty in that country,
31:13on average, by 80%.
31:16Alright, so far.
31:17But growth means climate change is worse.
31:20It means a future of climate chaos.
31:23In fact, the risk of dying in a
31:27climate related natural disaster
31:29has declined by some 90%
31:31since the 1950’s.
31:33And that's not because we have
31:34fewer disasters or because there is
31:37no global warming.
31:38It's because we are wealthier than
31:40we've ever been before because
31:41we've had economic growth.
31:43And it means that we improve construction,
31:45we improve early warning systems,
31:48we improve healthcare,
31:50which means that we can deal with
31:51all these problems and all disasters
31:54in a better way than we would
31:56otherwise have had.
31:57If we didn't have any economic growth
32:00since the 1950’s, yes, surely we would
32:02have slightly less global warming,
32:05but many more people,
32:06around half a million more people,
32:07would die because of
32:09climate related natural disasters.
32:11But the activists claim—
32:13Our addiction to making and
32:14consuming more stuff is exhausting the planet.
32:17More than a thousand
32:18so-called “experts” signed this letter—
32:21Calling for an end to a capitalist system
32:23which pursues growth at all costs.
32:25Instead, they advocated for degrowth.
32:28A smaller, slower economy,
32:31could also be a sweeter economy.
32:35We've just had an experiment with degrowth,
32:37unintentionally, during the pandemic,
32:40Suspending all travel from Europe.
32:43States urging people to stay home.
32:45The whole world shut down
32:46and half the world's population
32:47was under house arrest.
32:49All the flights were grounded.
32:51Did that save us? No.
32:53It was a terrible tragedy for humanity.
32:5760 million people were thrown into
32:59extreme poverty in that
33:00one year alone, 2020.
33:02And how much did this reduce CO2 emissions?
33:06By no more than 6%.
33:08So, if we wanted to reduce global warming,
33:13in like the Paris Climate Accords
33:15and just tell us what to do until 2030,
33:17by doing less, then we would need
33:19one pandemic like that every year
33:21until 2030 without any
33:23rebound in between.
33:24And that would be a terrible disaster
33:27for human life and health.
33:28Even a little growth makes
33:31a huge beneficial difference.
33:33Yeah. Compounded interest is the
33:36greatest force in the universe.
33:38If Sweden, my own country,
33:40had had just one percentage point lower
33:43economic growth per capita since we
33:45started to become rich,
33:47then Sweden today would be
33:49as poor as Albania.
33:51What's wrong with Albania?
33:52There's nothing much wrong with Albania,
33:55but Albanians are a quarter as rich as Swedes.
33:59And that shows in everything from
34:01life expectancy and child mortality,
34:03to working conditions,
34:05to how you can invest in
34:07taking care of the environment.
34:10It tells you that growth is
34:12not really about money,
34:13it's about opportunity.
34:14It's about the chance of doing
34:16the things that we want to do
34:18with our lives and for our society
34:21and for our young and for our old.
34:24Today, people in Albania risk their
34:28lives and safety to get to
34:29places like Sweden.
34:30Albanians now make up the single
34:32largest group arriving in small boats.
34:35And that's what you need to know
34:38about different economic and political systems.
34:41Look at where the refugees go.
34:43They always go from more
34:45oppressed societies to freer societies,
34:47from more socialist economies
34:49to capitalist economies.
34:51People risk their lives to get to
34:54freedom and to prosperity.
34:57And that's a more important indicator
34:59than the fantasies of some intellectuals
35:02about where they should be heading.
35:04In that case, the refugees would find
35:07a stream of people moving from the
35:10loneliness and hopelessness in
35:12the U.S. down south.
35:14So, what's up with the intellectuals?
35:16It's not just now.
35:17Forever, they have embraced socialism.
35:20I think there's always a temptation for
35:23the most educated and intellectual people
35:26in a society to think that common people
35:29are vulgar and they're hopeless and
35:31they can't see how they can really thrive
35:34and find meaning in such a shallow society
35:38with the kind of media and
35:40the “Taco Tuesdays” that we've got.
35:43So, I think that intellectuals often
35:45search for something else.
35:48They want people to reach for
35:49something that they find
35:51more of meaning into.
35:53And since Plato, they often think that
35:55they should be the kings themselves.
35:57Angela Davis, famous socialist—
36:00Yeah, racism is intricately
36:01linked to capitalism,
36:03and I think it's a mistake to assume
36:06that we can combat racism
36:08by leaving capitalism in place.
36:10I classify racism and capitalism
36:14as these conjoined twins.
36:15In order to truly be anti-racist,
36:18you also have to truly be anti-capitalist.
36:21What? That's complete nonsense.
36:24When you look around the world,
36:26the least racist societies with
36:28the fewest expressions of racist attitudes
36:31are the most capitalist countries.
36:33And why is that?
36:34Capitalism is the first economic system
36:37where you only get rich by opening up
36:41opportunities for others, for customers,
36:44for workers, for other businesses.
36:46And in that case,
36:48it pays to be colorblind.
36:50It pays to be open to willing customers
36:54and to workers who could
36:55enrich your company.
36:57And to do business with other businesses,
36:59no matter religion or race,
37:02or if they happen to cheer for another team.
37:06Doesn't mean that every person
37:07will be colorblind.
37:08There will always be idiots,
37:10but in capitalism,
37:11it's costly to be an idiot.
37:13In the Jim Crow South,
37:14it was businesses that fought Jim Crow
37:18because they were losing money.
37:19It's often forgotten that owners of
37:23buses, railways, street cars,
37:25in the American south,
37:26didn't really segregate systematically
37:29until the late 19th century.
37:32Why didn't they do that?
37:33It was probably not because
37:35they were less racist than
37:36others in the South,
37:38but they were capitalists.
37:40They wanted money, they wanted clients,
37:42and they didn't want to engage in
37:44some sort of costly and brutal
37:47policing business in segregating buses.
37:51Rosa Parks in Alabama who
37:54famously got on board that bus
37:56and protested against segregation.
37:58Well, buses in Alabama wasn't segregated
38:01until the year 1900 because
38:04the owners were capitalists.
38:06And that's exactly why the
38:08rulers in the American South
38:10instituted laws, Jim Crow laws,
38:12to force them to segregate their businesses.
38:15Because they didn't like greedy capitalists
38:17who weren't willing to discriminate
38:19against the blacks because
38:20it was costly to them.
38:22They cared about green money dollars,
38:26not black or white.
38:27Yeah. The first rule of business is:
38:30don't reject willing paying customers
38:33and don't harass them because
38:35they won't like what you're doing.
38:37So, the owners of these
38:39transport companies in the south,
38:40they tried to avoid those laws,
38:43bypass them secretly and
38:44fight them in courts.
38:46And they were often fined.
38:47And the owners were threatened
38:49with being imprisoned by southern states
38:52because they weren't willing to discriminate.
38:54And that's exactly why we got Jim Crow laws.
38:57Because free markets
38:58weren't willing to discriminate.
38:59So, politicians had to regulate them
39:01to force them to do it.
39:03Thank You, Johan Norberg.
39:05Thank You.
39:06[Swoosh]
39:08Thanks for watching this
39:09longer than usual interview.
39:12I'm still confused by that
39:14because I spent my whole career
39:15shortening interviews,
39:17mostly for 20/20.
39:19But seems lots of you
39:21like longer interviews
39:22so we'll do more.
39:24If there's someone you think
39:26I should talk to for a longer time,
39:28Let us know in the comments below.

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