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The Feminization of Society | Louise Perry and Mary Harrington — Transcript

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0:00I'm seeing radical feminists use exactly
0:01the same rhetorical strategies to try
0:03and avoid facing up to the truth
0:05as was used [music] against them. The
0:07tension between proponents of feminism
0:09and proponents of diversity.
0:11Now, this is this has been a thing for
0:13some time.
0:13>> I mean, my sense is that progressives
0:15have panicked in all sorts of ways. But
0:17particularly on [music] this. And I feel
0:19like when you're playing these language
0:20games, it's probably because actually we
0:22strayed quite far from reality. The big
0:24question is whether modernity survives.
0:26Yeah. I'm rooting for modernity in the
0:28end. Like for all of for all of the
0:30problems with modernity. I I like the
0:32internet and I really like my washing
0:33machine.
0:34>> I know. I really like C-sections and
0:35antibiotics, okay? [laughter] So, I'm
0:37very much rooting for modernity. But
0:39even if modernity doesn't survive
0:45Welcome to Socrates Dialogues. I'm Mary
0:47Harrington and today I'm joined by
0:49Louise Perry, Wall Street Journal
0:51columnist, author of The Case Against
0:53the Sexual Revolution, and host of the
0:56fantastic podcast Maiden, Mother,
0:58Matriarch. Welcome, Louise. Hello.
1:00>> [snorts]
1:01>> Louise,
1:02we've known each other for a little
1:03while and in the course of our
1:05conversations, we've talked a lot about
1:07how we came to how we came to form the
1:10views that we now have. Now, you've
1:13you've talked you've talked previously
1:15in public about your education at SOAS,
1:17which is a notoriously
1:19progressive, I think we might say woke
1:22university. In was it cultural
1:24anthropology?
1:26Or something along those lines? I think
1:27social anthropology is what it was
1:29called, yeah.
1:29>> Um and your and your and how you cut
1:32your teeth professionally as a
1:34campaigner on violence against women.
1:37So, I think my first question to you is
1:38what radicalized you?
1:40What brought [snorts] you from there to
1:42your to your more provocative positions
1:45and your your your current stance on
1:49on politics, on violence against women,
1:50and on on the world as it actually is.
1:54Uh Uh, well, SOAS certainly helped a
1:56lot.
1:57I [laughter] think
1:58So, uh, SOAS is actually
1:59>> Please say more. a fascinating
2:01institution
2:02which, um,
2:04deserves to be better known. So, it was,
2:06uh, it
2:06>> Please explain what what what does SOAS
2:08stand for?
2:08>> I I shall. So, it's Well, nowadays, it
2:10doesn't stand for anything. It just
2:11stands for SOAS because Okay, so, the
2:14original name of the, um, university is
2:18the School of Oriental and African
2:19Studies. And it's a small college of the
2:21University of London. And I think it was
2:23founded in about 1905, something like
2:26that.
2:27And, uh,
2:29they it's now just called SOAS because
2:31they found the Oriental bit too
2:33problematic. And so, they just
2:34re-christened the university. It's very
2:36small. It exclusively teaches, um,
2:41Asian and African culture-related
2:43subjects, um, including law and history
2:47and whatever.
2:48Um, so, I did social anthropology.
2:51A really interesting thing about SOAS is
2:52it was founded as a finishing school for
2:55colonial officers. Hmm. Particularly as
2:57a language school for people who are
2:59going to go out and
3:00and and serve in these parts of the
3:02world, which is why, of course, it's
3:03focused on Asia and Africa and not, say,
3:05South America because it's it's the
3:07British Empire that it was concerned
3:08with.
3:09And, uh,
3:10I assume that there was a period where
3:13there was a kind of ideological changing
3:14of the guards.
3:15We had the old blokes who were still
3:18teaching there
3:20from the colonial days. And then, you
3:21had
3:22>> of Arabia personally yourself.
3:23>> Exactly. And then, you had the new
3:24people coming in. And there must have
3:25been a period of some decades where
3:27there was friction. Thompson squeaks
3:30offstage.
3:30>> Yes, I would love someone to write about
3:32this.
3:32>> [laughter]
3:33>> Um, when I was there, it was, um,
3:38uh, very woke. And actually,
3:42I really
3:44I'm really pleased that I went to SOAS
3:45for multiple reasons. One, I learned all
3:47sorts of really interesting things. I
3:48did loads of courses that I would never
3:50have been able to do anywhere else. I
3:52did a whole year on Japan for instance,
3:53you know, all these kinds of exposure to
3:56uh subjects which I think a more normal
3:59anthropology degree would have been more
4:01focused on historical anthropology and
4:02less focused on contemporary stuff. So,
4:04anyway, that was all good.
4:05It was also very useful because I had a
4:07absolutely intense introduction to like
4:12progressive ideology. Not just in terms
4:14of the student body, but also in terms
4:16of what we were asked to read. And this
4:17was at the period for instance when um
4:20transgenderism was ascendant, but not
4:23yet mainstream. And we were taught it
4:26like it was fact.
4:28Just straightforward. There there was
4:29absolutely no counter narrative offered
4:31at all. This is fact. But it was at a
4:33time where it was quite cutting edge and
4:35quite exciting. And most people I think
4:37exposed to it in that context thought
4:39that it was cool. Did you
4:41>> I thought it was Did you think it was
4:42>> [laughter]
4:44>> And actually it was very useful
4:46experience for me in being I think if I
4:48hadn't been exposed to the most extreme
4:50manifestation of this ideology, it would
4:52have taken me longer to become critical
4:55of it. As it was, I thought, "No, this
4:57is crazy." And I kept that to myself.
5:00And um
5:02I actually became friends with Julie
5:04Bindel when I was an undergraduate
5:06because she was disinvited from um
5:10uh speaking I think at SOAS or the
5:12University of London.
5:14And I thought this was wrong and I
5:15emailed her and just said as a student I
5:17just want to let you know that I think
5:18it was it was bad that you were um
5:20turned away. And she very kindly
5:22responded saying, "How nice, would you
5:23like to get a coffee?" And I did. And
5:25this was a long time ago now. So, known
5:27Julie ever since. So, I was like a baby
5:29TERF
5:30at a time where that really was a
5:32a a fringe thing to be. It was really
5:34the only person who was publicly TERFy
5:37at that point was Julie.
5:38Um So, this was back in the late aughts.
5:42Uh no, not as early as that. This was
5:45This would have been like 2013.
5:48Yeah.
5:48Okay, so just as the great awakening was
5:50beginning to Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was
5:52right there in the thick of it.
5:54And you know the Napoleon line about
5:56what was happening in the world when a
5:57man was 20. That's what was happening in
5:59the world when I was 20. And I was
6:00really in the middle of it. And so I
6:01suppose
6:03um
6:04progressivism loomed large in my life.
6:06And honestly, I don't think I'm ever
6:07going to quite be able to shake that.
6:09Even as I think probably what is
6:11happening now is actually progressivism
6:13is really waning in its influence.
6:16And the big ideological
6:20um fissures of our time aren't quite at
6:23that
6:24aren't necessarily there anymore. There
6:25are other fissures which I'm sure we'll
6:26get on to. But I don't know if I'm ever
6:28going to be able to shake off the
6:29feeling that I've got progressives
6:30looking over my shoulder waiting to
6:31cancel me.
6:32>> Waiting to cancel you. Yeah, because
6:33that was my experience as a young woman.
6:34>> Yeah, for me it was that that atmosphere
6:36for me was the end of history, which I'm
6:38sure I for similar reasons I'll never
6:40shake.
6:41But that's a
6:42half a generation again in a way.
6:43>> It's like fixing your music taste.
6:45>> [laughter]
6:47>> Did that happen to me? I've terrible
6:49taste in music, so I've no idea.
6:51>> [laughter]
6:51>> So so that you mean you fast forward
6:53fast forward another
6:55another decade-ish, and you and I
6:58converged COVID time. roughly around
7:01circle COVID, yeah. Where where this
7:03sort of interesting convergence happened
7:05where the the sort of under
7:07undercurrents of turfism which had been
7:09bubbling for for the whole of the 2010s
7:12began to crystallize into people
7:14thinking and wanting to articulate more
7:16clearly
7:18that this is this is not this is this
7:19doesn't make sense. And actually, you
7:21know, wanting to make those make those
7:22arguments and make those cases more
7:24extensively. And so that was all that
7:26was all really quite a kind of ferment.
7:29And you your book came out I think about
7:31a year ahead of mine and did really
7:33well. And there you made the case that
7:35the sexual revolution in its entirety
7:37had been a net net negative for women.
7:39And you brought a whole a whole panoply
7:41of evidence to this.
7:42And and and the book the book really
7:45made an impact and then
7:47I
7:48you and I you and I got to know each
7:49other I think around that point because
7:50it turned out we had we had come to you
7:53know from really quite different quite
7:54different backgrounds and different
7:55perspectives and generations to to this
7:58this conclusion that no in fact liberal
8:00feminism has overreached and this is
8:02this is just this is doing nobody any
8:04favors and it's not just that it's not
8:05just the transgenderism thing there's a
8:07whole there's a whole panoply of other
8:08things as well. Yeah. Um so you know
8:11rather than rather than rehearse
8:13re-rehearsing those arguments which I
8:15think are sort of fairly well kind of
8:16percolated out into the discourse now.
8:19I I thought it might be fun now I since
8:21I've actually got some time with you so
8:22you know that's how it started at least
8:24in terms of our mutual acquaintance and
8:26collaboration. Um how's it going?
8:29What do you think? So we've had we had a
8:31good chunk of time for you know
8:33what's your sense of how things have
8:35developed in the period since? Um has
8:38there been where you know where is the
8:39where the backlash is coming from? Where
8:41have the winds been? Where how how what
8:43what's the what's the state of play in
8:45whatever whatever you want to call our
8:47little wave of feminism?
8:50When we so I think the first time we
8:52probably ever spoke was um on Unheard
8:55Lockdown TV.
8:57Was that it? I think
8:58>> so [laughter] and which would have been
9:00early COVID.
9:02>> Yeah. Yeah yeah. And
9:03>> the one where my cat Lincoln came or or
9:05the one where my toddler came and
9:06climbed into my lap?
9:07>> Yes I think so yeah and it was it was
9:09all yeah it was all quite um
9:12>> We were all very new to it at that
9:13point.
9:14>> were but and um
9:16I think I think that it's
9:18important to remember that a lot of our
9:22thinking at the time was really
9:24converging around post-liberalism That's
9:27right.
9:27>> as an intellectual movement
9:29um and various publications including
9:31Unheard which we were both writing for
9:32at the time.
9:34Um
9:34and
9:36so in a way I guess the broader question
9:39relates to that as well. Like how has
9:41how has
9:42because
9:43reactionary feminism is
9:46a facet of
9:48a larger ideological
9:51question.
9:52>> Mhm.
9:53And
9:57I'm not sure how I feel about
9:58post-liberalism now.
10:00Honestly. I remember having a
10:02conversation with someone at UnHerd
10:03about a few months into COVID um
10:07who said, "We don't say post-liberalism
10:09anymore." Right.
10:11>> Um or rather ask or No, I think the
10:13phrase was, you know, "Isn't everything
10:14post-liberal now?" Yeah.
10:16>> And I remember that really stuck in my
10:17mind because it was a prescient
10:19assessment of something which I realized
10:21the moment the moment he said that to
10:23me, I realized it was true. Yeah. I
10:25think that's true.
10:26>> COVID was the post-liberal moment and it
10:28turned out that post-liberalism mean
10:30doesn't mean what what the the the red
10:33Tories and the blue labors thought it
10:35meant. In fact, it meant something much
10:37much colder, much more technological.
10:39Mhm. And not really not really
10:42uh congenial to to any of the any any of
10:45the sort of social conservatism with a
10:48side order of Catholic social teaching
10:49Yeah. um kind of sensibilities which
10:53>> for. Yeah.
10:54>> that we were all hoping for. I remember
10:55the phrase that that really kind of
10:57resonated most pervasively in my mind
10:59during that whole COVID era was this is
11:02>> [laughter]
11:02>> this is the wrong post-liberalism and I
11:04want to see the manager. Yeah.
11:06Which is of course true on the left as
11:07well. It is. Yeah.
11:09The the the the left if anything might
11:11have abandoned liberalism much more
11:12vehemently. You think of someone like
11:14Mamdani or any of these figures who
11:16really embody the the new zeitgeist of
11:18the left. Um they're not liberals. No.
11:21No, no. I mean maybe in the very loosest
11:22sense of the term, but their their their
11:24deepest commitments are not to a liberal
11:26ideas. No, no. Um and that's also true
11:28on the right, you know, increasingly. I
11:30I mean there is a
11:32there are there are still lots of there
11:34are still classical liberals flying the
11:36flag.
11:37Um and I
11:39in my heart of hearts, I I I want them
11:42to prevail. I really do. I just feel
11:44quite skeptical about their capacity to
11:46prevail. I'm not sure if
11:48I I feel as if liberalism is not the
11:50human default by any means and therefore
11:52>> No, I think they the the gloomy
11:55conclusion which I'm coming to is that
11:58it was a byproduct of the printing press
12:00era. Yeah. And it only works in a print
12:02media environment.
12:03>> Interesting.
12:04Because that that it it's a there's a
12:06sweet spot between the broadcasting of
12:09information and the propagation of
12:10literacy which creates the the liberal
12:13information consuming rational civil
12:15discourse subjects.
12:16>> Yeah. But then there's the sweet spot
12:18where information doesn't proliferate so
12:20far in such brain rushing formats as to
12:23as to exhaust that and reverse it into
12:25this kind of goldfish uh
12:28discourse which is what we have now
12:30where nobody can remember what what the
12:31moral panic was 10 minutes ago. Yeah. Um
12:34and these these sort of deranged um mass
12:37mass emotional events seem to come sort
12:40of once or twice a week. Mhm. Um
12:42to the point I mean I've I found myself
12:44recently yeah, I I've become more and
12:46more actually conscious um
12:49in in responding to those sorts of
12:51emotional panics about about needing to
12:54be intentional in not not allowing them
12:56to consume you.
12:57>> Mhm.
12:57Um because I I mean I mean part partly
12:59because I mean if you do it for a living
13:01um if you're engaged in that and you're
13:03sort of people expect you to have an
13:04opinion on whatever the latest moral
13:06panic is. It's just it's it's sort of
13:08eats your soul after a while, I think.
13:10And I mean that in quite a literal way.
13:12Yeah. About as literally as it's
13:14possible to it it's I feel I feel sort
13:16of polluted. Yeah. If if if unless I'm
13:18being quite deliberate about uh
13:20maintaining some distance from that
13:22ecosystem. But that was all and I think
13:24perhaps what was so
13:26uh
13:27reality warping about COVID was that was
13:29the point where that in that way of of
13:32existing socially went hit critical
13:35mass. You know, I mean, being very
13:36online had been a thing before then.
13:38Mhm. Um but it wasn't but but COVID just
13:41forced everybody into it, including
13:43people who are not disposed, who are not
13:44naturally inclined towards that. Mhm. It
13:47was it was sort of the moment the moment
13:49of mass literacy but for the internet.
13:51Um and and everything everything which
13:53has just come to seem weird in politics
13:55since then. Mhm. Um has sort of been
13:57downstream of that.
13:59Um and I and I feel like I feel I I
14:01honestly I feel like we haven't really
14:02got a grip on what just happened yet at
14:04all.
14:04>> Yeah. So, when we say liberal, I mean,
14:06we could say the fourth wave stuff. Yes.
14:08>> where it's sort of woke and radically
14:11sort of post embodiment.
14:13>> Yes, right.
14:14>> So, the thing that we both took aim at
14:16in our books,
14:17>> Yeah. which is this idea of there being
14:20no meaningful physical or psychological
14:23differences between the sexes. That
14:25women and men are just interchangeable
14:26widgets.
14:27>> And actually you could you if you could
14:30make the case that that emerged in the
14:322010s partly as a byproduct of the fact
14:35that the left became very online first.
14:38Yeah.
14:38>> were actually early adopters of all of
14:40that entire of that that mode of
14:42consciousness and that mode of thinking
14:44about what a person is.
14:45>> Yeah. Such and I mean, if you if you'd
14:48thought if you'd become of age, your
14:49formative socio-cultural experience was
14:52mediated through Tumblr, I think it's
14:54it's sort of legitimate to draw the
14:55conclusion that in fact men and women
14:57are interchangeable and in fact, you
14:58know, we're all just sort of floating
15:00consciousness.
15:00>> yeah. Yeah, into digital space.
15:02>> Yeah. And that therefore it's legitimate
15:03to reskin your meat avatar in the same
15:05way as you reskin your your digital one.
15:08Yes, indeed. So, you know, people are
15:09just transposing that that metaphor
15:11quite sort of naturally into the real
15:13world. And they're then angry and
15:15aggrieved and sort of genuinely
15:16bewildered when people are like, "No,
15:18you actually actually you can't do that.
15:19It doesn't work."
15:20>> Yeah, there are no that's actually The
15:21the laws of the laws of physics and
15:23biology and so on just don't really work
15:25like that. Yeah. Um so yeah, I mean but
15:28but yeah, that's the thing that you and
15:29I were both responding to. That sort of
15:31very very online early adopter kind of
15:34body radicalism. Yeah, and of course
15:36that does still persist. I mean it may
15:37have become
15:40sections of it have become increasingly
15:42extreme and deranged.
15:43>> And and it's also lower status now,
15:45which I think is interesting.
15:46>> what I was going to say, which is
15:47actually sort of unexpected because um
15:49you'd think as we become as everyone
15:51becomes more and more online
15:53that mode of thinking about men and
15:55women would become more common. And
15:57actually It's not working like that at
15:58all.
15:59>> No, in the last few years. I think I
16:00mean there are bits now where I look
16:02back at my book and think that's a bit
16:04out of date.
16:06Yep. Yep. No, I being able to spend time
16:08offline is actually a flex now. In the
16:10same way as being able to have loads of
16:11kids is a flex. Yeah. Well, cuz of
16:13course we were both writing or maybe you
16:15a bit less so cuz you were a year later,
16:16but about
16:19before kind of the tradwife online
16:21phenomenon
16:22>> [clears throat]
16:22>> had really um built up a head of steam.
16:25Which was of course in a way doing I
16:27mean I think we both have critiques of
16:28the whole tradwife idea, right? But
16:31it was it was reacting against the same
16:33thing that we were reacting against just
16:35in a different medium.
16:36Um and yes, I think that actually the
16:40reaction against men and women as
16:42interchangeable widgets
16:44has come
16:46very aggressively Mhm. um in the last
16:49few years. And so if I were writing the
16:51book now, I think it would have to be
16:52quite a different book. But this is the
16:54nature of online culture, it moves very
16:55quickly.
16:58That's right. You
16:59when when you write a book, you sort of
17:01have to do it you have to do it at warp
17:02speed.
17:03>> Yeah.
17:04Um with with with an eye on the middle
17:05distance and sort of take a punt on
17:07That's one of the challenges of writing
17:08books.
17:09>> Yeah.
17:10>> And one of the reasons why people
17:12increasingly do intellectuals do
17:14podcasts instead of books.
17:16>> [laughter]
17:17>> It's true though. I've got I'm going
17:19down. I'm going down with the long-form
17:20ship.
17:21>> [laughter]
17:21>> Yeah.
17:23But for better or worse, that's I'm I've
17:26lashed myself to the mast and I'm going
17:27down with the ship.
17:28>> It's good for the It's good for you as a
17:29writer. It really is. But I find writing
17:32books hard. I think you find it easier
17:33than I do writing long
17:34>> Well, I mean, I'm only I'm only on book
17:36I'm only on the second, and I found this
17:37one I found it really hard to carve to
17:40claw out the chunks of time that you
17:41need. And that's actually the thing
17:42which I think is definitely the hardest.
17:45Um is is just making making the space
17:47cuz you if you you if you have a day
17:49here and a day there and a day there and
17:51a day there with other stuff in between.
17:53Um I somebody put it really nicely. They
17:54said there are startup costs. Like you
17:56need X number of hours to to to recall
17:59all of the moving parts that you need to
18:00be conjuring with to mind. And once
18:02you've got all the moving parts front of
18:04mind, then you can work really quite
18:05quickly. I mean, I think I I think I I
18:08banged out three chapters in three weeks
18:10once I had the had all the pieces. But
18:12in the previous 3 months, I'd had
18:13constant interruptions to point where I
18:15it was just well, hadn't been possible
18:16to do that. Yeah. Um so yeah, so there's
18:18there's a there's a mode of
18:19consciousness It's It's not even so much
18:21that writing books is difficult is that
18:22there's a mode of consciousness which is
18:24increasingly inaccessible because life
18:26is so full of interruptions. Yeah. Um
18:29Yeah. And perhaps perhaps actually this
18:30speaks to what we were saying about life
18:32online life life offline being a flex.
18:35>> Mhm. Because at the point where you
18:36realize that long-form thinking is a
18:38luxury good um is a little bit like
18:40realizing when you get into the airport
18:42that silence is a luxury. Mhm. Silence
18:44is a luxury good. Um And also, you know,
18:47be having having the the
18:49the the time and resort the the non- the
18:53non-economic resources available to be
18:54able to raise joyfully multiple children
18:57is a luxury good.
18:59Um And yeah, we we've reached this we in
19:02a sense you in a sense I think we've
19:04passed we've passed peak growth. Um the
19:06global financial crash was it with where
19:08where we're into degrowth now. I mean,
19:09that's a The another doomer conversation
19:11we can
19:12have get [laughter] on to in a minute.
19:13But I but I think I you know in this
19:15weird sort of post-economic place we're
19:17in where nothing really works the way
19:18it's supposed to anymore. You know,
19:20actually all of the all of the goods
19:22which are really valuable are
19:24increasingly obviously positional ones.
19:27You know, every everything which is
19:28subject to Baumol's cost disease is now
19:30is now rocketing in value and every
19:32everything else is just cheapening to
19:34the point of being meaningless.
19:36I also think that the um
19:41the ability to resist
19:44the online temptations Yes.
19:46>> is increasingly the
19:49the way of demarcating your own
19:52um
19:55Well, so put it differently. People who
19:57can resist, who have the personality or
19:59psychological traits necessary to resist
20:01the worst of the online world are in an
20:03a uniquely advantageous position. That's
20:06right.
20:06>> And the traits
20:07>> alpha is being able to unplug from the
20:08Skinner machine. Yeah. And I mean it and
20:11it applies to other things as well.
20:13>> brutal scissor. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz you
20:15know, in the way in the way that weed is
20:17a scissor, but actually it's not that
20:18hard to avoid being a stoner. Really,
20:20it's not that hard. Yeah. Um and you
20:22know, there are but but but avoiding
20:24being a an iPhone stoner is so many
20:28orders of magnitude harder. Yeah,
20:29because typically you do have to use
20:31these devices. So you can't go cold
20:32turkey. And you and when you pick it up
20:34the moment you pick it up, it's like
20:35ooh. Yeah.
20:36>> half an hour you've just lost. Yeah.
20:38>> Yeah. Yeah. And also you've let the
20:39vampire in
20:40because the you're immediately sucked
20:42into whatever whatever this week's
20:44emotional panic is. Yeah. Whatever this
20:46this 10 minutes is emotional panic is
20:47and that's consumed your entire inner
20:49life. Yeah. To the point where is it
20:52becomes increasingly difficult to think
20:55um to think. Yeah. Or you know, to to
20:57compose your own thoughts.
20:59We used to people It's already the case
21:01that
21:02one's ability to resist other areas of
21:04limbic capitalism has been a a status
21:06marker for a while.
21:07>> Yes. So, you know, we're filming in this
21:09in the city of London and I was walking
21:11around at rush hour this morning and uh
21:13noticing that everyone is slim.
21:15Yep. Everyone is well-groomed. Everyone
21:17is clearly going to the gym. Every This
21:18is This is a key way in which you can
21:20identify the fact that people are rich
21:22cuz they work they work out here. And
21:23the moment they realized that uh Ozempic
21:26and the other the other GLP uh drugs
21:29were so effective, they immediately
21:30hiked the price so it goes back to being
21:31a class signal again.
21:32>> Right, but it's still the case that
21:34Ozempic can make you skinny fat but it
21:35can't make you look buff, which is like
21:38every man who works in the city around
21:39here is also going to the very many
21:41fancy gyms that you walk past. It's part
21:42of the culture. And it's table it's
21:44table stakes. Yeah, and it's a way of
21:46indicating your own um self-control.
21:48That I think is increasingly true also
21:51of your digital self-control. Yeah. But
21:54physically manifesting it is, you know,
21:56a way that can display your status is
21:58maybe more nascent. I'm not sure how you
22:00would indicate that.
22:02I I don't I mean, you and I have talked
22:03before about digital modesty. Yeah.
22:05>> Probably.
22:06Um and the I mean, there's a there's a
22:08sense in which you sort of if when when
22:10you see somebody doing something
22:12digitally immodest, you know it you know
22:14it when you see it. It's sort of
22:15difficult to
22:16uh it's difficult to define precisely,
22:18but you know it when somebody's
22:19oversharing, when somebody's
22:21somebody's posting photos of themselves
22:24that that you just think, don't do that.
22:26Um or you're going to regret that later.
22:28You might not regret it now and you're
22:29going to and I can see that you see the
22:31likes coming in and you see the the
22:32dopamine that they're obviously enjoying
22:34and then you think, you know, you'll
22:35you'll probably going to regret this
22:36later. Yeah. Even if you don't realize
22:38for a number of years why you're going
22:40to regret it. So, two conjectures about
22:42why fourth-wave feminism might have
22:43peaked a bit.
22:45Um one is that
22:48uh people just got bored and it was no
22:50longer vogish and they moved on to
22:51different things. Primarily, they moved
22:52on to race.
22:54Yep. Cuz really post-2020 that became
22:56the thing and Jezebel feminism was just
22:58sort of abandoned and and the women now
23:01who probably previously would have been
23:03going on like slum walks or
23:04something 10 years ago and now trailing
23:07ice around. Okay, so to some extent it
23:10might just be that that group of
23:11activists have pivoted their attention.
23:13It's also possible that actually the
23:15idea of men and women as interchangeable
23:18widgets has become less attractive in an
23:21era when people are so excessively
23:23online to the extent that it makes them
23:24sick. Mhm. And I think maybe we I think
23:28maybe there's a longing for embodiment,
23:31maybe.
23:32Among
23:33um the
23:35sort of people who engage in this kind
23:37of political discourse.
23:39Those are both just hypotheses. They
23:40might both be right as well. So so much
23:43for fourth-wave the the the Jezebel
23:45girls.
23:46>> Yeah. What about the rest of the gender
23:48discourse? I'm thinking particularly of
23:50the backlash, the noises the noises that
23:53are now coming from inside the
23:54right-wing house. Mhm.
23:55Um which is a whole other, you know,
23:58quite sensitive and quite volatile
24:00territory. Yeah. I mean, you know, to to
24:02put it bluntly, I feel I feel the urge
24:04to punch right these days much more than
24:06I used to.
24:06>> It's cuz we're centrists.
24:08>> [laughter]
24:08>> We've always We've always said this.
24:09We're squishy centrists. We've always
24:11insisted to each other that we're
24:12centrists. It's true, we actually are.
24:13>> We actually are. Yeah. It's just the
24:15people on the left tend not to realize
24:16that because they don't know how far the
24:17right goes. That's right. They They have
24:19no idea what what right-wing actually
24:20looks like.
24:21>> Yes. And they also don't understand
24:22There's this outward homogeneity bias
24:24where they they don't see that the right
24:26is divided. So yes, we're in the middle.
24:30Yeah, I mean well
24:31I I I suppose I'm thinking about
24:34phenomena, you know, such as repeal the
24:3619th
24:37with the that meme in the United States.
24:39And there's a I mean, I'm not going to
24:41I'm not going to point or name or but
24:44there's a there's a theme that I see
24:47sloshing around you know, the the sort
24:49of internet anon's where which seem it's
24:52a sort of fantasy I suppose that
24:54everything would be all right again
24:56across every area you care to name if
24:59only we could just push women out of
25:00public life. Yeah. And and it seems to
25:02be sincerely believed. Firstly, that
25:04that men have been systematically
25:06bullied, excluded, marginalized, and
25:09told that they're rubbish in every
25:10possible way, which is, you know, at
25:12least to a substantial extent true in
25:14some ways. Yeah. Um like that's a
25:16reality, you know. However,
25:18um I I I wonder if I I wonder if the
25:21solution I mean I wonder if the solution
25:23doesn't rather put the cart before the
25:24horse.
25:25I don't know what what I mean I mean
25:26what do you what do you make of that
25:28discourse?
25:29>> One of the questions it begs is why men
25:30have been allowed that to happen.
25:32You you would know you I asked that on
25:35the I I asked that on Twitter once and
25:37you would not I mean people went
25:38bananas. Yeah.
25:40>> Yeah. One explanation which is plausible
25:42is that men in positions of authority
25:45allowed this to happen because they um
25:48either wanted to get laid or just wanted
25:50to be chivalrous, that they did it to
25:51please women, not appreciating that if
25:54they let so many women into positions of
25:56authority that it would change the
25:57culture and so that the men were just
25:59sort of
26:00not thinking with their brains. Kind of.
26:03That's one hypothesis, but also I I feel
26:05like one of the counterfactuals which
26:07doesn't get which doesn't get
26:09reckoned with often enough is that
26:11actually a lot of the like the the
26:13managerial phenomena Mhm. which which
26:16are routinely pointed at as evidence of
26:19feminization um began to emerge and to
26:22be critiqued. I mean, you know, James
26:23Burnham was critiquing managerialism a
26:25long time ago, you know, shortly after
26:27the Second World War. There were not
26:28very many women in public life short
26:30just after the Second World War. Yeah. I
26:32mean it was with women had only been
26:33enfranchised at that point for about two
26:35decades in the United Kingdom at least.
26:37So, the idea the idea that for example,
26:40the culture of academia was already
26:41rampantly rampantly sort of overrun by
26:44HR ladies is just for the birds. It's
26:46just not true. Yeah. And yet here is
26:48here is this well-worked-out critique
26:50of, you know, technocracy and
26:51managerialism and a lot of those sort of
26:54social architectures of the kind whose
26:57existence is now blamed on the the
27:00the conflict styles and cultural
27:03preferences of women.
27:05Um and I I wonder if I I wonder if
27:07blaming it I it I wonder if blaming it
27:09on women is isn't sort of putting it
27:11putting the cart before the horse
27:12somewhat in the sense that you know
27:15having having embraced a sort of
27:16managerialist mode of mode of existence
27:19at least for information workers. Um you
27:22know sort of upper echelon
27:24um office job people. It wasn't it
27:27wasn't at least as much that work just
27:29became much more congenial for women and
27:31much more a much more sort of
27:34livable place. You know and then and
27:35then of course you you could you could
27:37you could argue that subsequently you
27:38know recursive feedback loops exist
27:40which bring us out in a place where
27:42actually some of the more some of the
27:44more direct critiques of quote unquote
27:46feminization are true.
27:48Um but it but I I'm not sure that it
27:49started there.
27:51I mean the argument that you've made
27:52which I I I think is so
27:55beautifully true which is that Twitter
27:58in particular but online discourse in
27:59general makes everyone behave feminine
28:01in a feminine way because it forecloses
28:04the possibility of violence. Yeah.
28:05>> So it may be is that that modernity
28:08feminizes everybody. Yes. Um and that is
28:12what gives the appearance of a feminized
28:14>> Yeah I you're right actually. I've never
28:15really thought about it like that before
28:17but the I mean my that the sort of the
28:18crude characterization of social media
28:20and sort of Twitter in particular but
28:22social media in general as incentivizing
28:24endless talking and foreclosing the
28:25possibility of violence. You know shoves
28:27shoves all of all the interactions which
28:29are mediated through that environment
28:31into a much more much more feminine
28:33coded mode. But I mean you you could you
28:35could say that you know in incentivizing
28:38endless talk and foreclosing physical
28:40violence is really just the
28:41characteristic of information
28:43information type office jobs full stop.
28:45And also of the total state.
28:48>> Yes, using or in McIntyre's term, but
28:50the
28:52like
28:54police forces have the have the effect
28:56of feminizing men,
28:58for instance,
28:59because they take away one task which is
29:01traditionally
29:03uh falls on men. So, you think the state
29:05monopoly on violence is just feminizing
29:07Yeah. as such. Yeah. I'm not saying it's
29:09bad. I'm just saying that that's that's
29:11how it is. I think that it really it
29:12forces people to It certainly forces
29:14people to be aggressive to one another
29:15in a different way.
29:17Um
29:18and that's part of what probably I mean
29:21also there's these wider changes to
29:22economy which have left
29:25a portion of men
29:27um somewhat obsolete economically,
29:30which is just
29:32no one designed it that way, but it
29:33turns out that it's easier to
29:35mechanize
29:37uh heating your home and offshoring
29:40manufacturing and things like that than
29:42it is to mechanize care work. Hm. We
29:45don't have care robots. They're not
29:47really. That's just never That hasn't
29:48worked. So, there's this whole People
29:50keep trying, but no, obviously it
29:51doesn't work.
29:51>> Yeah, so pink-collar work remains as as
29:55dominant as it ever was, whereas
29:56blue-collar work hasn't, and that's just
29:59a quirk of robotics,
30:01um which no one designed, but that's
30:03that is part of what's contributing to
30:04the feeling of male disposability.
30:07Um I mean so I don't so so so Helen
30:09Andrews' thesis on
30:11feminization of public life,
30:13>> [clears throat]
30:13>> I don't
30:15I I don't really disagree with her.
30:18I mean her thesis is actually very her
30:20argument is is actually very mod-
30:22modest. Like by comparison with some of
30:25the people who've picked it up and run
30:26with it. Yes. You know, cuz there are
30:28there I mean they're always
30:29>> say the same of our argument.
30:30>> [laughter]
30:31>> That's absolutely true.
30:32Right, exactly. You know, somebody makes
30:34a modest and carefully thought through
30:35and well-evidenced argument, and then
30:36and then the nutters in the comments
30:37will do whatever they do. Yeah. Um
30:40and and and Helen's Helen's argument is
30:42really only that it would we could that
30:45it would be better to take the thumb off
30:47the scales. Yeah.
30:49>> I think that that really is the entirety
30:50of her contribution.
30:51>> her only policy out output.
30:53>> I which I think is the entirety of her
30:55contribution. I mean, I think I I
30:57support that. I think taking taking the
30:59thumb off the scales
31:01Um I'm
31:02I suppose you can have a secondary
31:03argument if you want about whether it's
31:04possible to take or whether, you know,
31:06it's just a question of whose thumb.
31:08Um that that I mean, that's a very
31:09post-liberal argument in in itself,
31:12isn't it? In the sort of in the
31:13expensive sense of post-liberal. That it
31:15just invites, you know, that there is no
31:17there is no neutral. In fact, it's just
31:19a question of whose thumb is on the
31:20scales.
31:21There are, of course, more ambitious
31:22things that one could do to try and
31:24return to
31:27a previous status quo, like
31:29disenfranchising women. I mean, that's
31:30the that's the big thing that's always
31:31gets muted.
31:32>> But you see, I I honestly don't think it
31:34would work. And and the reason I don't
31:36think it would work is if you go back
31:38and you look at the history of the
31:39enfranchisement of women.
31:41In at least in the United Kingdom, I'm
31:42not so familiar with the with the the
31:44history of the vote women's vote in
31:46other countries. But in in England, the
31:49argument against the enfranchisement of
31:51women as it was advanced by I mean, they
31:52were they were obviously misogynists who
31:54were just oh, no, we mustn't let women
31:55vote because they're silly creatures.
31:57But but the the
31:59the the female argument against the
32:02enfranchisement of women of women, and
32:04there was one. You know, they were there
32:05was a it was a large a large and
32:07well-organized and well-resourced
32:08campaign was that women already have
32:11enough power because they run civil
32:12society. I mean, that's just that's a
32:14reductive paraphrase of it. But they the
32:16argument was that one, women are not
32:18going to go and join the army and die
32:20for the country, so therefore they
32:21shouldn't be involved in decisions about
32:23military or imperial matters. And two,
32:26women already women already have
32:28political power because they they run
32:30all the civil society organizations, you
32:32know, they're basically the they're the
32:34they're the circulatory system for the
32:35church, for local social groups, and so
32:38on. And And a lot of the a lot of the
32:40anti-suffragists were very pro women
32:43being able to stand in local elections
32:44for the same reason. So, it was it was a
32:46coherent argument, and it wasn't the one
32:48that subsequent history has has said it
32:50was. Mhm. But, um the all of their
32:54arguments were basically abolished um or
32:56rendered obsolete by a political change,
32:59which came at the end of the First World
33:01War and really of the over the period of
33:02the two World Wars in England, where all
33:05of those all of those
33:07organs of social reform and social
33:10disciplining and um all all of the the
33:12social infrastructural stuff, which had
33:14been the province of the church ladies
33:16in the 19th and early 20th century, were
33:18nationalized in the form of the welfare
33:19state. And at that point, it simply
33:21didn't make sense to leave women
33:23disenfranchised when they were still
33:25needed to run all of those systems that
33:27they'd previously run on a voluntary
33:29basis. You know, I mean, anti-suffragist
33:32women um who'd been prominent, I forget
33:34the names, but they they were women who
33:36were prominent in the anti-suffrage
33:37campaign, who who then when when their
33:40social reform organizations were
33:41nationalized transitioned seamlessly
33:43into local government.
33:45Um yeah, and they And so, the reason the
33:47reason the argument for against women's
33:49suffrage went away was because they
33:50nationalized all of the things that
33:51women had previously been doing. Mhm. Um
33:53and and and and And I suppose if you
33:55bring that argument up to the present
33:57day and you think, "Well, we still have
33:58all of those infrastructures. They're
33:59all still nationalized. They're all
34:00still basically run by the modern-day
34:02equivalent of church ladies."
34:04>> Yeah. Um under those under those
34:06circumstances, you could remove the vote
34:08from women, but what difference do you
34:09think that would make to the amount of
34:11social and cultural power those women
34:13actually have?
34:14Um all the all all the enfranchisement
34:16of women really did was acknowledge the
34:18reality of the the of the political
34:20power of a certain subset of influential
34:23middle-class women.
34:25And there's a tendency, I think, to
34:27exaggerate how big uh
34:30how
34:31how differently men and women actually
34:32vote. That's right. Like, if you look at
34:35how, um,
34:37I mean, the the the thing the online
34:39right gets so energized about is the
34:42difference between, um,
34:44it's really white men and and white
34:46women in America and how they vote. And
34:48it's like, you look at the actual, you
34:49know, it's like this is this tiny little
34:51area which is considered to be so
34:52vexatious.
34:54White women and white men vote very
34:55similarly. Like, race has a much bigger
34:57impact on voting than does sex. But,
34:59also on all sorts of issues like,
35:02uh, [gasps] I mean, immigration would be
35:04a very vexing one. So, the idea the the
35:06idea you'll commonly hear is that women
35:09just absolutely love open borders. Women
35:10do not love open borders. You look at
35:12polling on what normal women think and
35:13they are roughly in line with men in
35:15that they hate open borders. Again, it's
35:17like you never like Depends very much on
35:19But, depends very much on which women
35:20you ask in
35:21>> Well, exactly. I think it probably is
35:22the case that at the sort of far tail,
35:25the far left tail politically, you get
35:27more women who are really agitating on
35:30some of these including on open borders.
35:32That you have more prominent activists
35:33who skew female and on the right
35:36prominent activists probably skew male.
35:38Um, I think that's true. But, those
35:39people aren't going to go away if you
35:40disenfranchise them. No.
35:43No. Exactly. What difference is it going
35:44to make? Yeah.
35:45>> [laughter]
35:46>> Oh, while we're while we're on the
35:47subject of women and feminism, uh, this
35:50actually segues me beautifully to the
35:53next the next topic I wanted to look at
35:55in our review of, uh, RX Fem.
35:58>> [laughter]
36:00>> What's doing this? Which is the really
36:02interesting and challenging tension
36:05which, really feels more urgent and
36:08present by the day, between, uh,
36:12at campaigners for women's rights and
36:14against violence violence perpetrated
36:17against women. Uh, or or the the tension
36:19between between proponents of feminism
36:21and proponents of diversity. Mhm. Now,
36:24this is this has been a thing for some
36:25time. I mean, it's I remember there were
36:27enormous bun fights on Mumsnet back in
36:29the early 2010s. You I forget exactly
36:31which year it was when the
36:34the the Cologne New Year's Eve sex
36:36attacks happened. Where a group a group
36:38of It was a long time ago. It was It was
36:40either It was either the late '00s or
36:42the early '10s. And it was It was a very
36:44shocking incident. At least it was very
36:45shocking at the time. It's sort of
36:46weirdly routine in Britain today, it
36:48feels.
36:49But at that time there had there had
36:51recently been a very large influx of of
36:54people [snorts] from from Syria and the
36:56Middle East into the country.
36:58And on on one New Year's Eve a group of
37:01women a number of women had experienced
37:02this very shocking
37:04uh
37:05moment of being surrounded surrounded by
37:07men who groped and harassed them and you
37:10know, left them very frightened and and
37:11feeling as though
37:13you know, so something something really
37:14grave was about to happen to them. It
37:16was It was sort of group-based sex
37:17attack of a kind which had was hitherto,
37:19I think, been pretty much completely
37:20unknown in in Western Europe. And I I
37:23believe it has a name in I believe it
37:25has a name too in Arabic.
37:27>> I think. I don't know how to I don't
37:28know how to pronounce it.
37:30Yeah, it's a mode of yeah. Well, it's a
37:32sort of a sort of a sort of a swarm
37:33swarming upon and sexually attacking a
37:37lone isolated woman who can't defend
37:38herself.
37:39>> Yeah.
37:39>> thing. It's a It's a famously happened
37:41to that American journalist in Cologne.
37:43That's right. And this is there's
37:44actually a name for it in some in some
37:46of these cultures.
37:47And but it was very shocking. And I
37:48remember the bun fight on Mumsnet about
37:51how how women should respond to that.
37:53You know, this is obviously a community
37:55of women who who who take seriously I
37:57mean, the the the feminism boards of
37:58Mumsnet are famously you know, the the
38:01incubator the the the pipeline into
38:03gender critical feminism and have been
38:05for
38:06have been for a long time.
38:07>> Those ladies are really scary, too.
38:09Yeah, I mean, these are these are I
38:11don't participate in these message
38:12boards.
38:13>> you know, don't don't mess with the moms
38:14of Middle England. Absolutely. And they
38:16are rightly so. And also but also what's
38:18what's interesting about the about
38:19Mumsnet and the moms of Middle England
38:21is at the very centrist. Um they're
38:22genuinely not ideological.
38:25Yeah, their concerns are you know, can I
38:27raise my children safely? You know, cost
38:29of living.
38:30Um you know,
38:31it's sort of no no normal normal person
38:33stuff. You know, and and rightly so.
38:35This is the
38:36This is the sort of thing you sort of
38:37you feel like it we ought to be free to
38:40be concerned about. Yeah, they're not
38:41they're not party political really.
38:44And but there was this enormous quarrel
38:45fight about about the the the New Year's
38:48Eve sex attacks in Cologne.
38:50Um and and since then that that theme
38:53has recurred on an
38:55ever more insistent basis. You know, can
38:57we
38:58how do we pass the question of women's
39:00safety in relation to the very different
39:03norms concerning
39:06you know, sexual behavior around women
39:07which are common in other countries and
39:09as as these collide with the greater
39:11mobility of people and the you know, the
39:13influx into into Western countries of
39:15people from these very different
39:16cultures.
39:17Um [snorts] and I mean, you know, that's
39:18that's a it's something that I mean, you
39:21you've you've taken you've posted and
39:23written about the about the grooming
39:25gangs on a few occasions recently and
39:27it's something which I found myself
39:28especially as my daughter gets older
39:30increasingly um thinking about. Yeah.
39:33And as we increase with mounting horror.
39:35I I I I mean, how how do you how do we
39:38how do we move forward
39:40with with these questions? You You
39:42notice it's a it's an increasingly
39:44pertinent division among TERFs. It is.
39:46Uh it has been for a little while, but I
39:48think it's that's becoming more and more
39:49insistent because um
39:53And in many ways actually where we're at
39:55right now with the arguments among women
39:59on this
40:00it reminds me so much of about 2013 in
40:04in terms of the gender the
40:05transgenderism. Say more.
40:07In that there are
40:09there are you will you still have to
40:12tread very carefully. You could get in a
40:14lot of trouble for saying the wrong
40:15thing. There are certain figures who get
40:18hung out to dry as you know that who get
40:20Julie Bindel's but Posie Parker would be
40:23the person really who's been Julie
40:24Bindel's on this question within
40:25feminist circles.
40:26>> care.
40:27No. They really doesn't care. They are
40:28yeah, it's admirably unconcerned.
40:30Um
40:32and it also I think depends on some
40:34claims about human nature which are just
40:35false, which is obviously false.
40:38Yeah. And and and demands all sorts of
40:41like I think that the I'm I'm I'm I'm
40:43straying into controver- controversial
40:44waters here. But this is a this is a
40:46debate that is constantly being had and
40:47I think it's important.
40:49The the debate that you have over civic
40:51nationalism often rests on the versus I
40:54think nationalism often rests on the
40:56same premises as the debate over what
40:59defines a woman.
41:01Mhm. So that people will say so talking
41:03about an ethnic group, okay, which is
41:05more slippery than a a sex a sex class,
41:08right? The distinctions between men and
41:10women are you would think very clear and
41:12yet we did have a there was a whole
41:13thing there where people didn't accept
41:15this, but you'd have the same arguments
41:16around um oh, but what about this edge
41:18case? Oh, but what about someone who's
41:20had surgery? Oh, but what about someone
41:22you know? Like what even is a woman? Is
41:23it someone who has ovaries? Is it
41:24someone but I don't have ovaries cuz I
41:26had them removed. You have this like
41:27insane level of
41:29popular philosophizing about what
41:31exactly defines a woman. You get exactly
41:33the same thing over ethnicity. Now, you
41:35say oh, but you know, isn't
41:37isn't everyone
41:38related to everyone? Oh, but what about
41:40the the Danes? Oh, but what about the
41:42the cal- whatever like yes, there are
41:45fuzzy edges. Of course there are fuzzy
41:46edges, but these things exist. I mean
41:48the answer I tend to give to people is
41:50like okay, sure, but if you put me and
41:53my daughter on if you plonk us down on a
41:56beach in say southern Italy and you
41:57asked any five-year-old Italian kid on
42:00that beach to point out the two English,
42:02you know, the English mother and her
42:03daughter, all of them would point at us.
42:05And it wouldn't be because you were
42:05sipping tea. No, and it wouldn't be it
42:07[laughter] wouldn't be although you
42:08probably would be it wouldn't be because
42:09you were sipping tea and playing
42:10croquet. Yes.
42:12Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's it is the exact
42:14the same mode of like insane
42:18biological denialism.
42:20And look, you don't have to say, you can
42:22still hold like a certainly a soft civic
42:24nationalist position, absolutely, and
42:26say, "Well, British is a legal category
42:28and people can be incorporated into it
42:29in various ways." But that doesn't mean
42:31that the ethnic group doesn't exist. And
42:33that's what you're constantly hearing.
42:35Like to the point where you're not there
42:36isn't actually a word that you're
42:37allowed to use to describe
42:40people indigenous to a particular
42:41European country.
42:43In exactly the same way that for so long
42:45you weren't allowed to like what what
42:47you're allowed to say cis women and
42:48trans men.
42:50Or maybe you're allowed to say people
42:51assigned female at birth. But you the
42:53only things you were allowed to say were
42:55cis people.
42:55>> to describe yourself as cis English? I
42:57have I did write some while ago that
42:59maybe that's the term that we should
43:00use, cis English or cis British or
43:01whatever. Because
43:04that that's what that's to me what
43:06recalls so much that particular period
43:08of
43:09political conflict is this is this
43:11funniness over language.
43:14And that people will be jumped on for
43:17for slipping up slightly. And I feel
43:18like when you're playing these language
43:20games, it's probably because actually we
43:21strayed quite far from reality. But it
43:23also strikes me that it it's possible to
43:25have it's possible to have some of these
43:27conversations about women's safety and
43:30um
43:31uh
43:31border management without with without
43:34needing to litigate in any great detail
43:37the ontology of a female.
43:39>> Yes. You would hope so. Yeah, I mean you
43:41would think so. And yes, it evolves
43:42constantly.
43:42>> Yeah. Which is interesting in itself.
43:45The And it it I mean
43:49I mean my sense is that progressives
43:50have panicked
43:52in all sorts of ways.
43:54But particularly on this. Like the
43:56Rotherham is
43:58like
43:59it's I'm not the first to say this is
44:01it's it's the Chernobyl, right? It's
44:03this catastrophic
44:05disaster which highlights all of the
44:08problems with the regime, and it just
44:12it you can't make it go away. It just
44:15rumbles on and on.
44:16>> the
44:17The theme on that that I found
44:19particularly interesting that's been
44:21emerging more recently as people are
44:24just relentlessly insistently pursuing
44:28um
44:30a more a more granular assessment of the
44:32truth
44:33is is this this emergent theme that that
44:36no, in fact, the parallels with the
44:38Epstein story are
44:40much richer than we thought in the sense
44:42that this is just the this is the tip of
44:44the iceberg. And in fact, what we're
44:46looking at is a network of criminality
44:48roughly analogous to the Sicilian Mafia.
44:50Um and in fact, yeah, what we're looking
44:53at is organized crime in which the girls
44:55were in a sense, you know, they were
44:56they were the Ferrero Rocher. Right, you
44:58mean you're thinking of Epstein, right?
44:59And and I'm also thinking of the
45:00grooming gangs. Yes. Um that that that
45:02pattern is present in both cases. Yes.
45:04Um and this is
45:05And in this context, um I think I think
45:08this is a particular this is an
45:09incredibly challenging moment for
45:10left-wing feminists. Yeah. Yeah, because
45:12it in a sense, the two halves of your
45:14truth are coming inexorably apart in a
45:17way which is genuinely painful, I think.
45:19>> Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um and and it's
45:21you know, I'm I'm I'm watching I'm
45:23watching the the the the bloodshed
45:25there.
45:26Um and I'm watching radical feminists
45:27break in both directions in a way which
45:29is really interesting. And I'm seeing I
45:31mean this is why I recalled transing I
45:33I'm seeing radical feminists use exactly
45:35the same rhetorical strategies to try
45:36and avoid facing up to the truth Hm. as
45:39was used against them. Hm. You know, 10
45:41years ago.
45:43That's really extraordinary.
45:44Fascinating. Really extraordinary. Yeah,
45:45just quibbling about statistics,
45:47quibbling about definitions, like yeah,
45:48just playing games rather than being
45:49like, come on.
45:51>> [laughter]
45:51>> Like I mean, it seems yeah, for a
45:54Yeah.
45:55So, I mean, what if you were if you were
45:57to speculate, what what how do you think
45:59how do you think this will cash out? I
46:00mean, may is there anything we can learn
46:02from the way turfism cashed out Hm. Um
46:05or has cashed so so far about turf?
46:08There was there was eventually a
46:09respectability cascade. Yeah. With
46:12turfism.
46:13Um and the people who had previously
46:17condemned Julie Bindel stopped
46:18condemning Julie Bindel and never
46:20apologized. [laughter]
46:23>> [gasps]
46:24>> That was pretty much what happened.
46:25>> were sorry. Yeah, exactly. So I I guess
46:27we can expect roughly the same thing to
46:28happen. Except I think actually this is
46:30going to be more
46:32This is much more serious and much
46:33worse. Hm. As a conflict.
46:35>> How do you think that's going to affect
46:38the equally
46:40ambivalent relationship between
46:42Christianity and feminism?
46:45Um I mean, this is this I mean, this is
46:47an argument which has been going on for
46:48for centuries. So, you know, I doubt
46:50we'll I doubt we're going to solve it
46:51today. But but I mean, you you made the
46:54argument very powerfully, I thought. You
46:56wrote a you wrote a superb piece a while
46:57back on on on repaganization where you
47:01explored how the enabling the enabling
47:04cultural and moral foundations upon
47:06which feminism was even thinkable were
47:09could not could not have come into being
47:10without the prior existence of
47:12Christianity. And even if feminism even
47:14if sub some strands of later feminism
47:17later broke away and sort of rebelled
47:18against their their their ans- their
47:21sort of ans- moral ancestors in the in
47:23the form of, you know, the Christian
47:24insistence on human dignity and on the
47:26the equality on on the equality of men
47:28and women in human dignity and on
47:30chastity as an obligation for both sexes
47:32rather than just just for one etc. and
47:34so on.
47:35Um
47:38How And yet, um we find ourselves in a
47:41in a position now where the the liberal
47:43feminists on one side reject reject
47:45Christian social teaching as being too
47:47reactionary. Yeah. Um and and Christian
47:51and and there's there's a there's a
47:52there's a subset of right-wing
47:53Christians on the other side who reject
47:55the women's movement as being So so in a
47:57sense it in a it feels as though the
47:59breakup has been
48:02irreparable
48:04and it did and left these two sides
48:06radically polarized. And and yet it
48:08seems to me that in fact there's
48:11with the exception of you and perhaps me
48:14and under small a small group of
48:16indomitable Catholic feminists who
48:18insist that you know no in fact these
48:20two things really have something in
48:21common with one another. You know
48:22everybody else is sort of yelling at
48:23each other from the same kind of binary
48:26uh
48:27and you know like like the two like the
48:29boys and the girls at a disco nobody
48:30wants to talk to each other. Yeah.
48:32Well, I think it's certainly true that
48:34the the fully blank slate view of
48:37feminism
48:39the widgets view
48:42I don't think you can really
48:44I mean that's difficult to
48:46that's difficult to sustain full stop
48:48because it so often encounters
48:51reality in a way that's destabilizing.
48:53But I think that's also very difficult
48:55to square with
48:57um Christianity
49:00not least because
49:02Genesis has a fair bit to say about men
49:04and women being different from one
49:05another. I mean that that the just the
49:06foundational ideas are
49:08incompatible.
49:08>> difficult to do Christianity without any
49:10account of teleology as well which is
49:12really what's going on in that blank
49:13slate is. Yeah. You know so so we we can
49:16be we can be people without teleology
49:18which seems
49:19I mean it seems odd to me but Yeah. it's
49:21it's genuinely held. Yeah. I think that
49:24the
49:26I mean something that we haven't even
49:27talked about yet is
49:28the the effect of fertility on how
49:31that's
49:32how society is changing is likely to
49:34change based on differential fertility
49:36rates.
49:37>> but no no let's let's dig into that now
49:38cuz this is the subject of your next
49:40book isn't it?
49:40>> It is. So I was
49:42So on this question of the conflict
49:44between
49:46Christians who are anti-feminist and
49:48like there's a very big difference
49:50between religious and non-religious
49:51people in terms of fertility. A very big
49:53difference. And the And increasingly
49:55there's a partisan fertility gap as
49:56well, which didn't exist 50 years ago.
49:59But now Republicans have um
50:02like a whole extra child, I want to say.
50:04I can't remember the exact numbers, but
50:05they have a lot more children than
50:07Democrats.
50:07>> mirrored in the UK as well?
50:09>> No one as far as I know has really
50:10broken it down by
50:12>> Maybe the sample size isn't big enough
50:13for that. Well, you could you could do
50:15it. It's just that the the availability
50:17of the granular data is quite difficult.
50:18I mean, I can tell you that like
50:19Brighton has the lowest fertility rates
50:21in the country. Like make of that what
50:23you will, but um I would not be at all
50:25surprised if that also is true in other
50:28parts of the world. I think the
50:30Financial Times actually did looked into
50:32the numbers and found this was
50:33consistent across the West, the the
50:34partisan fertility gap. And the
50:36religious fertility gap. I'm not
50:38entirely sure to what extent those are
50:40the same thing.
50:42But the point is that um
50:45the people who hold to the most radical
50:48progressive views and atheist views are
50:50not reproducing themselves.
50:52>> deleting themselves from the gene pool.
50:53>> Yeah, and it may that doesn't
50:55necessarily
50:57spell the end of the ideology because
51:00they might succeed in converting other
51:01people's children.
51:03But
51:04uh
51:05religiosity and to some extent cuz one's
51:08political attitudes are based in large
51:12part on personality. And person other
51:14things like conscientiousness, openness
51:16to experience, etc. And those things are
51:18heritable. So we should expect the
51:22people who are having children right now
51:24to produce people who are more
51:27ideologically like themselves in the
51:28next generation and the generation after
51:30that. And actually the numbers that can
51:31be quite stunning. Like the difference
51:33between having a TFR, a total fertility
51:35rate of like 0.7, which I would I would
51:39guess is probably what we're looking at
51:40in terms of like uh
51:42secular progressives in the West, and
51:45having a TFR of two is enormous Yeah. in
51:48terms of two generations hence. Yeah,
51:51exactly. These are exponential effects.
51:53Um
51:54And so
51:55I feel like the I I I almost feel like
52:01progressive ideas are not really even
52:05though as we discussed at the very
52:06beginning I'll always feel like they're
52:07looking over my shoulder.
52:09They're on the way out probably and
52:12actually the big contest is going to be
52:14within conservative religious spaces.
52:17And questions like questions that
52:20Catholic feminists
52:22Is it possible Is it possible to be a
52:23Christian and also a feminist for
52:25example?
52:25>> Yeah, that's going to be actually the
52:26really big question I'd say of the next
52:28century.
52:28>> Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. Cuz I
52:30mean this has been Yeah,
52:32this has been
52:33increasing in salience as as a struggle
52:36sort of internally to the right. This
52:37might already be why we're seeing rises
52:39in homophobia in Western societies. It
52:41could be although although others have
52:42conjectured that that's that's also
52:44related to Yeah. To to to both rates and
52:47also also to migration. Yes. Yes. Sorry,
52:49that's what I meant by demographics. in
52:50demographics in in with migration from
52:53Yes, it's I'm sure it's both.
52:54>> thesis about uh but but
52:56before before we get on to
52:58but perhaps we shouldn't just get my my
53:00really radioactive thesis. Um
53:03But I but I want to talk about your much
53:05less radioactive but also incredibly
53:07unpopular thesis on why this [laughter]
53:09is
53:11Oh, my most anti-aliens.
53:13>> yes. I want I want to
53:15All right. And I'll I'll I'll Okay, I'll
53:16tell the story of the
53:17>> Everybody Everybody hates Everybody
53:18hates it.
53:19>> gets so mad. Everyone
53:21>> [laughter]
53:21>> Everyone in the comments will be saying
53:23no, actually it's because of my own
53:24personal political hobby [laughter]
53:26horse. That's actually definitely the
53:27explanation.
53:28>> is the only is the sole cause. So, when
53:30I first started writing this book about
53:31So, I'm writing this book about birth
53:32rate. I I
53:34the
53:35the title originally was the case for
53:37having kids. The working title now in my
53:39mind
53:41is
53:42the future belongs to those who show up.
53:43I'm I'm more interested actually in how
53:46I think this is going to change the
53:47world. How what predictions we might be
53:49able to plausibly make about how the
53:50world is going to change in the coming
53:51decades and century-ish.
53:54Um
53:55than in necessarily trying to persuade I
54:00I don't know I
54:01Panda's are notoriously difficult to
54:03persuade to get it on. Yeah. I mean
54:05having said that I always I often get
54:07and I'm so gratified always to get them.
54:09I get emails from women saying and I
54:10know you do as well saying I decided to
54:12have a baby partly because I read you or
54:14I listened to you and I was on the fence
54:15and then I thought no actually
54:16motherhood is a good thing. So
54:18that we we have these small ripples,
54:21these small beautiful ripples. But um in
54:23general I think trying to just tell
54:25people to have more children is not
54:28really a goer.
54:28>> Showing them showing people charts and
54:30graphs doesn't do anything.
54:31>> No. Indeed. Indeed. Um imagine deciding
54:34to get it on just because because you
54:36you looked at the graph the line was
54:38going in the wrong direction. I mean
54:39certainly doing it for like the sake of
54:41the nation. I think the people ought to
54:42realize that there is no welfare state
54:44waiting for them when they're old.
54:45>> Although actually in the 19th century at
54:48the height of maternalism which was the
54:51the the social cultural movement which
54:53which spawned the anti-suffragist but
54:55also spawned the church ladies who then
54:56became the welfare state.
54:57>> Yeah. Angel of the house kind of era. It
54:59was explicitly
55:01um
55:02frequent it was a it was a familiar
55:04trope that having children for the sake
55:06of the race was a good what what was a
55:09noble honorable and proper thing for for
55:11all women to do. Should we try putting
55:13that on a post to Mary Stopes and
55:14[laughter] see how it goes? But this is
55:15you know you know this is to to be clear
55:17I'm not this is this is not an argument
55:18which I I I am making. This was This
55:21This was a completely normal thing to
55:23say. For a for a 19th century church
55:25lady.
55:25>> In Australia during the population
55:26parish period. And they would have used
55:28that phrase. This is not my phrase. This
55:30is a phrase that you you see repeatedly
55:31for the good of the race. Yes. Yes. And
55:33it's And it's astonishing actually when
55:35you think about how how radically the
55:37the the discourse has come has come full
55:40180 from from the way the way it was
55:42completely normal to talk in the 19th
55:44century. And you know, for for better or
55:45for worse, and you
55:47you know, there are there there are pros
55:48and cons of yeah. Sure, but our era is
55:50the outlier in general. Um, the line in
55:53Australia is
55:55was uh have one for mom, one for dad,
55:57one for Australia to encourage people to
55:59have three children. When did when did
56:01people abandon that?
56:03I would guess the 1970s. I don't know
56:04when exactly that slogan was in in
56:07train, but probably about the same time
56:08that the While Australia policy was
56:10abandoned, but anyway, that's another
56:12conversation. Um,
56:14so the my thesis for the book, I started
56:16off thinking my political hobby horse
56:19surely is what explains why people
56:21aren't having children. And surely you
56:23know, you know, that
56:24it must be to do with, you know, lacking
56:27people not valuing motherhood enough and
56:31all the various economic trends that
56:33we've discussed, you know, being not
56:35being conducive to child bearing and so
56:37on. Um,
56:39the problem with trying to explain why
56:40fertility is falling everywhere is it is
56:42happening everywhere.
56:44And it's even happening in places like
56:45sub-Saharan Africa. They still have high
56:47birth rates, but they're falling fast.
56:49And they're probably actually lower than
56:50a lot of countries make out. There are
56:52there are there incentives to inflate
56:54births in some of these countries.
56:56Um,
56:57but any explanation for why this is
56:59happening has to be able to account for
57:02everywhere from Japan to Iran
57:07to Chile to you know, and
57:10trying to blame any particular thing
57:12like trying to blame liberalism or
57:14feminism or anything. That that that
57:15just doesn't work. Um, you might be able
57:17to blame So like it's possible that like
57:20smartphones or something like sometimes
57:21people say the internet is too
57:23distracting or or gives um
57:26scrambles people's status signals in a
57:28way that discourages fertility. The
57:31problem with that is that uh Britain and
57:33America and other really rich countries
57:35fell below the replacement threshold in
57:37the '70s, so long before the internet
57:39came along. You might say that it's an
57:41accelerant,
57:42you know, it's possible.
57:44Um
57:45So, I I have been
57:48reading as much as I can around this
57:50topic and trying trying to work out like
57:52what the puzzle is. The book primarily
57:53isn't about what the puzzle is, but it
57:55is still the big question that everyone
57:56wants to know like what is causing this.
57:58And if you don't know what's causing it,
57:59you certainly can't rectify it. Um which
58:01is why discovering the truth is
58:02important.
58:04Um I think that it's um So, for most of
58:09human history, child mortality rates are
58:12very high.
58:13Our species norm for child mortality
58:15seems to be somewhere in the 30% to 40%
58:17kind of range. It goes up in certain
58:20periods, including in um
58:22immediately post-industrial urban
58:24settings, but um it is just high. It's
58:28high among hunter-gatherers as well.
58:30And um this is one of these sort of
58:32horrifying things that no one ever wants
58:33to really think about too carefully
58:34because it's just so upsetting that
58:35you'd rather not think about it. And I
58:37think people People are vaguely aware
58:38that this is true, but they sort of push
58:39it out of out of their minds. Um
58:42The Industrial Revolution led to a
58:45plummeting in child mortality rates
58:47down from a third ish to less than 1%
58:51even in poor very poor parts of the
58:52world have remarkably low child
58:55mortality rates by historical standards
58:57because they have access to western
59:00medical tech and sanitation and and so
59:03on.
59:04Which were all innovations that came out
59:06of
59:07um Industrial Revolution that began in
59:09Britain. So, really Britain, you know,
59:10gave the world this this phenomenon
59:12for good now.
59:13Um
59:14But child mortality is like the great
59:16good that's come out, you know, the fact
59:18that people can expect their children to
59:19survive to adulthood is like the it's
59:22the one thing about modernity which no
59:24one wants to lose. It's the most
59:25valuable thing about modernity. We can
59:27hate the internet, we can hate air
59:28travel, all these things, but this is
59:30like no one wants to let go of this.
59:32>> I like the internet.
59:33>> [laughter]
59:34>> I like air travel as well, anyway. I
59:35actually love modernity. Anyway, um I
59:38hate airports, though. I
59:39>> Anyway. I fear that
59:42um we know that what happened when um
59:45child mortality initially fell from
59:47about 1800
59:49was it the countries in which it fell
59:51initially saw massive booms in
59:53population because their fertility rates
59:55remained high. So, in Britain, for
59:58instance there was this enormous
1:00:00population explosion in the 19th century
1:00:02and a lot of people went overseas. And
1:00:04that's why the uh Anglo diaspora remains
1:00:07one of the largest ethnic groups in the
1:00:09world because these people went to
1:00:10populate America and Canada and
1:00:12Australia and everywhere else.
1:00:13Um and it's because they had very high
1:00:16fertility rates and very low child
1:00:17mortality rates and they were able to to
1:00:19just explode, okay? But after a while,
1:00:22fertility rates drop.
1:00:25After mortality rates have dropped it
1:00:27takes maybe a couple of generations.
1:00:29It's fairly gradual. It's also somewhat
1:00:32mimetic. So, people respond to what
1:00:34other people are doing around them. So,
1:00:35if other people having lots of kids,
1:00:36you're more likely to. If other people
1:00:38having fewer kids, you're more likely
1:00:39to. Cuz obviously no one is looking
1:00:40almost no one is looking at the charts
1:00:42on child mortality and being like, "Hmm,
1:00:44what are the chances that my children
1:00:45are going to survive childhood?" People
1:00:47make these decisions based on um
1:00:50social settings.
1:00:52And um
1:00:53it seems that people cottoned on to the
1:00:55fact that um
1:00:58well, it seems that in the ancestral
1:01:00environment, when we have very high
1:01:01child mortality, people have a natural
1:01:03instinct towards wanting to have more
1:01:06children
1:01:07with the expectation that quite a large
1:01:09number of them are going to die.
1:01:11And the standard hunter-gatherer woman
1:01:12is to have four children and two of them
1:01:14survive to adulthood, and that's just
1:01:15been true for all of all of human
1:01:17history up until 5 minutes ago, really.
1:01:19It seems that that instinct to have
1:01:22children um is subdued
1:01:25in conditions of very low child
1:01:27mortality.
1:01:28And you see this happening really
1:01:30consistently everywhere. You have child
1:01:32mortality prompt plummet, there's a lag.
1:01:34Lag gap does vary a bit, but there's a
1:01:36lag and then fertility goes down as
1:01:39well. The fertility doesn't just go down
1:01:41to 2.1. Fertility keeps going down. And
1:01:44now it goes down to places like South
1:01:46Korea, it's down at 0.7, those kind of
1:01:47numbers. Like really low.
1:01:49And um
1:01:52there's other pieces of evidence to
1:01:53indicate this in this this um link as
1:01:56well. Like if people if if couples have
1:01:58a child who dies, they
1:02:01have a very strong urge to have another
1:02:02child, try to have another child soon
1:02:03afterwards. If people know children who
1:02:06there's been some interesting studies on
1:02:08like going to funerals and how many
1:02:10funerals you go to, does that affect how
1:02:12much you want to have a child? Um this
1:02:15this is flimsier but interesting. There
1:02:17is also some research showing that um if
1:02:19you remind people of death in a research
1:02:22setting um they uh say they want to have
1:02:25more children and words relating to
1:02:26children spring more easily to mind than
1:02:28they if they haven't been primed with
1:02:30mortality salience.
1:02:32There's lots of experimental data which
1:02:33I I I lay out in the book. Um
1:02:36the unfortunate fact though is basically
1:02:38this, in conditions of very low child
1:02:39mortality
1:02:41um
1:02:42a lot of people seem to lose the desire
1:02:43to reproduce. And when they also have
1:02:45access to contraception
1:02:48which makes it very easy for them to
1:02:49still have sex but not to reproduce
1:02:51uh that's what happens.
1:02:53And I'm guessing that what is going to I
1:02:55mean this is where we get speculative.
1:02:57Um I'm guessing that what what could
1:03:00happen
1:03:02>> [sighs]
1:03:03>> was I think there are two models that we
1:03:05might see emerge from this. One is the
1:03:07cyclical model, the the Spengler model.
1:03:10Mhm. So civilization contracts, there's
1:03:13population decline Chaos emerges and
1:03:16mortality
1:03:17>> of Rome, exactly. And then we have a
1:03:19dark age, child mortality rises again,
1:03:21and people revert to the human norm.
1:03:24Another possibility is more like a J
1:03:26curve
1:03:28where the people right now who for some
1:03:31reason are resistant to this
1:03:33and who for some reason still want to
1:03:34have We both know people who have big
1:03:36families despite the fact that they're
1:03:37living in conditions where that's very
1:03:39unusual. Um the people who are still
1:03:41having four, five, six, seven children
1:03:44um
1:03:45that they there's something about them
1:03:48something genetic, something cultural,
1:03:50both
1:03:51which preserves the desire to have
1:03:54children in a time when no one nobody
1:03:56else is really doing so. So, the open
1:03:57question for those of us who like
1:03:59airports and the internet is whether
1:04:01whether that's going to be enough people
1:04:03>> whether that's going to be enough people
1:04:04to keep all of that ticking over or
1:04:05whether that's more is a sufficiently
1:04:08systemic uh
1:04:10exercise
1:04:11uh but requires
1:04:13uh enough of us to be involved
1:04:15>> and capable, but
1:04:16>> Yeah.
1:04:16that it that is not in fact workable.
1:04:18Yeah. I mean Elon's working very hard,
1:04:20you know, all on his lonesome to try and
1:04:23uh have his own progeny reproduce
1:04:24modernity indefinitely. I I but But he's
1:04:27not the norm, obviously, among people
1:04:29who are highly fertile at the moment.
1:04:33Given all of this and the possible you
1:04:35know several possible apocalypses that
1:04:37that we've just arrived at. People get
1:04:39mad about this. Yes. No, no, no. I'm I'm
1:04:41not I mean that it feels it feels very
1:04:43it feels very plausible to me. I mean
1:04:45I'm generally I'm generally sort of you
1:04:47know astride the bomb with my hat in one
1:04:48hand like the guy at the end of a Dr.
1:04:50Strangelove. I should say as well I I
1:04:52haven't originated this idea. Actually,
1:04:54if you go back and look at the
1:04:55demographic literature from the latter
1:04:58half of the 20th century, people
1:04:59completely knew this already. They knew
1:05:01that there was already a verse just that
1:05:02nobody wants to know because everyone's
1:05:03got their hobbyhorse. Yes, and also that
1:05:05that that this was at the period of the
1:05:07population bombing a source of anxiety.
1:05:09So, So you read demographers saying is
1:05:12actually don't worry, it's safe for us
1:05:15to reduce child mortality in third world
1:05:17countries because actually it will
1:05:19inspire them to have fewer children. So
1:05:21we can inoculate these babies without
1:05:23having to worry about population
1:05:25explosion. That's what academics were
1:05:26concerned with at the time. But of
1:05:28course you can read that now from a
1:05:30completely different vantage point and
1:05:31and and yeah, and reach different
1:05:33conclusions. But the but the link
1:05:35between the two phenomena I think is is
1:05:37is quite well established.
1:05:38>> So given all of these apocalypses,
1:05:40what's your source of hope?
1:05:43Um what what when when you when you
1:05:44think about the future and you think
1:05:46about
1:05:47um about your own kids and you think
1:05:48about our prospects for and then the the
1:05:51the likely futures that that you and I
1:05:54will be spending the rest of our lives
1:05:55living through. What what what gives you
1:05:57hope? What what what's your source of
1:05:58optimism?
1:06:00Uh humanity has seen far far worse than
1:06:01this.
1:06:02I mean genuinely though that like
1:06:04>> qualified note of optimism.
1:06:06>> I mean it's true though. I mean
1:06:08certainly in terms of this is the only
1:06:10period
1:06:11I ever as far as I'm aware where the
1:06:13reason we've seen massive population
1:06:15contraction is because of people just
1:06:16failing to reproduce rather than war,
1:06:18famine, pestilence, etc. Like if you're
1:06:20going to live through a period of
1:06:21population contraction, this is a very
1:06:23easy ride.
1:06:24>> [laughter]
1:06:24>> You know, really it is.
1:06:26Um and I So far. Yeah, and I So So I
1:06:29mean the big question
1:06:31The big question is whether modernity
1:06:33survives. Yeah. I'm rooting for
1:06:35modernity in the end. Like for all of
1:06:37for all of the problems with it.
1:06:39>> And I I like the internet and I really
1:06:40like my washing machine.
1:06:41>> I know you really like C-sections and
1:06:43antibiotics. Okay. So I'm very much
1:06:45rooting for modernity.
1:06:48But even if modernity doesn't survive,
1:06:52everyone that we're descended from
1:06:55lived good lives without modernity.
1:06:58Like lived lives which were much harder
1:06:59than ours and which were that contain
1:07:02contained a lot more grief
1:07:05and pain than ours.
1:07:08But you can't say that those lives
1:07:11aren't worth living just because I mean
1:07:13if you if you were to say that then you
1:07:14would have to just obliterate all of
1:07:15human history up until 5 minutes ago.
1:07:17>> So so your source of hope is in fact the
1:07:19human spirit and the human capacity to
1:07:21to for for nobility but more or less
1:07:23regardless of circumstances.
1:07:26Yeah.
1:07:27And I don't I mean it's if the Spengler
1:07:28model is true, the cyclical model, we
1:07:30just you know return to dark ages and
1:07:31back and back again like well
1:07:34it wouldn't be the first time, okay? So
1:07:35[laughter]
1:07:36um if the J I mean the J curve is maybe
1:07:38more frightening in a way because the
1:07:40thing that frightens me is the
1:07:41possibility of us obliterating
1:07:43ourselves.
1:07:44And that's where modernity becomes a
1:07:46very difficult
1:07:47uh bet because of course if we are going
1:07:49to obliterate ourselves, it will be
1:07:51through tech.
1:07:54I'm I'm cautiously I'm cautiously
1:07:56optimistic on that front but I Yeah.
1:07:58I I mean it comes down to Christian
1:08:00faith in the end. I asked Ross Douthat
1:08:01this question we were talking about AI
1:08:03and I said do you I asked Ross do you do
1:08:05you think
1:08:07in the end that
1:08:09the super intelligence wiping us all out
1:08:11like God wouldn't let God wouldn't let
1:08:13that happen. Like it's just not that's
1:08:15not going to be how and and he said yeah
1:08:17basically in the end like
1:08:18I can't really think that that's going
1:08:20to happen because I don't think that's
1:08:21how God would end the story.
1:08:23And I think
1:08:25I think I agree with him. That's a
1:08:27perfect note to wrap up on. [laughter]
1:08:30I think I agree with him, too. Yeah.
1:08:32>> I I would like I would like to think
1:08:34that that's not how God would end the
1:08:35story.
1:08:35>> Yeah. And and that's a that's a
1:08:37beautiful place to pause.
1:08:39>> [laughter]
1:08:40>> Thank you so much, Louise, for joining
1:08:42me. It's been wonderful. And thank you
1:08:44so much you all for listening. And this
1:08:46has been Socrates in the City, Socrates
1:08:48Dialogues.
1:08:49Um I hope you'll join us again next
1:08:51time.
1:08:53You might be thinking that's not Eric
1:08:55Metaxas.
1:08:57My name's Mary Harrington. I'm a writer
1:09:00and a past contributor to Socrates in
1:09:02the City. I'm thrilled to be joining
1:09:04Socrates in the City as the first
1:09:06inaugural Socrates contributor.
1:09:09Throughout 2026, I'll be hosting many
1:09:11fascinating conversations on life, God,
1:09:14and other small topics.
1:09:17Be sure to subscribe to get
1:09:18notifications whenever a new episode
1:09:20from Eric or myself drops. And thank you
1:09:23for tuning in.

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