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The Feminism Debate: Can Women Have It All? | Megyn Kelly | EP 552 — Transcript

by Jordan B Peterson · 12,709 words · 1,886 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00Half of Western women 30 and under have
0:03no child. Half of them will never have a
0:05child and 90% of them will regret it.
0:08This is a catastrophe. Your life will be
0:11happier if you have a partner and
0:13children. That's just true. And people
0:15should be told that and then they should
0:17be told the realities of fertility. But
0:19in my case, Jordan, from that day to
0:21this, I've always loved working. I love
0:25it. It's totally exciting and
0:28interesting and intellectually
0:30stimulating to me and I cannot imagine
0:33not doing this. We do potentially have a
0:36major societal issue in that men have
0:41their pathologies that are expressed
0:43socially, aggression, antisocial
0:45behavior, drug and alcohol abuse, but
0:48there's no reason to assume whatsoever
0:50that women wouldn't bring their own
0:52pathologies to the workplace. I've seen
0:54women behaving terribly over the past 5
0:57years in particular, and they're at the
0:59apex of the bad messaging. They're
1:01obsessed with abortion, which I just
1:03think speaks to a lot of things like the
1:05absence of religion in the public
1:06square. So, I just think the whole
1:07system is set up to breed that kind of
1:10woman.
1:12[Music]
1:25It's become mandatory in our culture to
1:27assume that the feminist movement has
1:30elevated women to the status that they
1:33now enjoy. I'm I'm not so sure about
1:35that. I think that
1:37technological transformation and
1:40plumbing has had a lot more to do with
1:42that than uh ideological movement, let's
1:45say, especially one based on resentment.
1:47But in any case, it is the case that
1:50women occupy a position in society that
1:53was unheard of 100 years ago. There's a
1:56downside to all of that. And the
1:59downside appears to be the mounting
2:01unhappiness among young women, the
2:03precipitous decline in birth rates, the
2:05collapse of marriage um as a social
2:08institution, and uh a spate of
2:12childlessness among young women, as well
2:15as the feminization of our institutions
2:17in a manner that often borders on the
2:20pathological. I discussed these issues
2:22today with Megan Kelly, a woman who's
2:24married, who has children, and who's had
2:26a stellar career, and we attempted to
2:29sort through these 30 issues and come to
2:32a conclusion about how men and women
2:35might conduct themselves in relationship
2:36to one another and what the consequences
2:39of that are for the way we think about
2:41ourselves in society.
2:44You've had a very successful career and
2:46I'm kind of curious about how you've
2:49balanced your life and your work and how
2:52that's worked for you and what advice
2:54you would give young women who are
2:57apparently struggling quite radically.
3:00Now, young men have their problems and
3:02there's no doubt about that. But um I
3:05think it's something in the neighborhood
3:06of 50 to 60% of liberal young women in
3:09particular between the ages of 18 and 34
3:12who
3:14are who who suffer from at least one
3:18diagnosible mental disorder for example.
3:20And you know, and polls show pretty
3:23consistently that since the 1960s, the
3:27average self-reported happiness of young
3:30women in particular um has declined and
3:34quite precipitously. So, let's start
3:36with that.
3:38Well, I'm not surprised uh to hear those
3:40stats about liberal women in particular
3:42because look, I see it with my own
3:44daughter who's 14. The schools today try
3:49to exploit young girls and young women's
3:52empathy to bend them to their democratic
3:57norms. They they try to impose all of
4:00their left-wing viewpoints on these
4:01young girls uh by tapping into the
4:04empathy vein. You know, if you don't
4:07support Black Lives Matter, you're
4:08racist. If you don't support trans
4:11girls, meaning boys, playing in girls
4:13sports, you're a bigot. They're bullied.
4:16Don't be a bully. Be a nice girl. That's
4:19how we've been raised for time in
4:21memoriam to be nice girls who get patted
4:23on the heads. And and you're not a nice
4:26girl if you're a bully or a bigot or a
4:28racist. So I'm not surprised at all that
4:32girls who don't get inoculated against
4:34that kind of thinking at home who go
4:38into the any normal school system will
4:40be indoctrinated in that kind of
4:42thinking and they will will wind up very
4:44unhappy, very unhappy because her
4:47natural instincts will be to fight
4:49against things like watching a boy take
4:51all of her blue ribbons. But she's been
4:53told by all the people she respects in
4:55the school setting at least that she's a
4:57bad person if she objects to that. And I
5:00think that inongruous feeling leads to
5:03unhappiness. I think the reward system
5:06of K through 12 and college education
5:09right now is for people who play the
5:11victim. And so much the better if you
5:14could actually be a victim. That would
5:15be terrific. You will be celebrated. You
5:18will be the cool one. You'll get the
5:20snaps from your fellow classmates and
5:22your
5:22professors. Writing your college essay
5:25about what a happy childhood you had and
5:27your intact family that supported you
5:29and loved you along the way will not get
5:32you in anywhere. Maybe three
5:34universities in the United States. But
5:37writing about the destitution derby that
5:39you have suffered uh from 0 to 18 can
5:43open doors that would otherwise be
5:44closed to you, especially if you happen
5:45to be a white person, a girl or boy. So
5:49all of the incentives are set up in a
5:51very backward manner. And I think the
5:54other problem facing young liberal women
5:56is young liberal men who by and large
6:01are being turned into these it's
6:03derogatorily referred to as soy boys.
6:05But I get it like they're taking the
6:07masculinity out of our young men and
6:10then telling them that's the only way
6:11that they're going to be accepted. And
6:14especially young liberal men are buying
6:16that and walking around in Birkenstocks
6:19with their Starbucks being quick to cry
6:22at any emotional wound. And crying is
6:25not that's fine. You can cry as a man,
6:27but most women would like somebody who
6:29doesn't do it all the time in response
6:32to all emotional upset. They prefer the
6:34huntergatherer types. And so these young
6:37women I talked to on college campuses
6:38are looking around for a man who will
6:42protect her, who will help lead, who is
6:46not afraid to enter hand-to-hand combat
6:49if necessary or just rhetorical combat
6:51if necessary. And who while he treats
6:54her as an equal, will put his coat over
6:58her shoulders if it's a cool night out.
6:59Will absolutely protect her if somebody
7:02messes with her on the street. will,
7:04like my husband does with me, gently
7:06move me to the side that's not facing
7:09the traffic along the road. Just those
7:11small little things that a man does for
7:13a woman, and women have a different list
7:14that they do for their men if they're in
7:16a kind and loving relationship. And
7:17instead, what they're getting is
7:19somebody who wants to braid each other's
7:21hair, which would depress you and make
7:24you question the whole experience.
7:27Yeah. Well, it's not surprising, I
7:29suppose, that boys are turning in that
7:32direction. You know, I I met a young man
7:34in a restaurant a while back. Um he
7:37wasn't looking too bad when he
7:39approached me. Uh he was a waiter and he
7:43said that he had started listening to
7:46first Ben Shapiro and then me uh 6 years
7:48ago, something like that. And that um
7:52prior to that it was the his proclivity
7:56and his friends to compete with one
7:59another with regard to their victim
8:02status, let's say, and to present
8:05themselves as radically feminized to the
8:08young women that in principle they were
8:11with. Um, he said that was necessary
8:15with the girl he had dated at one point
8:18because she was very radically liberal
8:19and that was a job requirement, you
8:23might say. And he shook all that off and
8:25told me and my wife who was sitting with
8:28me that he was much happier for it for
8:31it. But it doesn't really surprise me,
8:33Megan,
8:34because boys are not well served in the
8:38education system at all. Right. their
8:40play preferences. Uh I was just
8:43reviewing some stats on ADHD over
8:46medication among young boys with one of
8:48my producers and um
8:52what the original
8:54hypothesis such as it was with regards
8:56to hypothetically hyperactive boys was
8:59that stimulants which is what rolin is
9:03have a paradoxical effect on hyperactive
9:06young boys calming them down. And that's
9:09complete bloody biochemical nonsense.
9:11And it's a lie psychologically. What
9:14stimulants do is focus who people
9:18intently on whatever they happen to be
9:21focused on. And they have exactly the
9:24same effect on ordinary boys as they do
9:26on hyperactive boys. Not least because
9:2990% or 95% of hyperactive boys are
9:33actually normal. Um, stimulants suppress
9:37play behavior in animals. So, if you
9:40give stimulants to young juvenile rats,
9:43for example, who are very playful, then
9:45they stop playing. And that's exactly
9:48why they're administered to young boys
9:49in schools. And so, their their play
9:52proclivity is um punished quite
9:56severely. Any attempt they make to be
9:59competitive in a world of cooperative
10:02games. And there's really no such thing
10:04as a cooperative game. Although all
10:06games that are rulegoverned are
10:08cooperative. Any sign of ambition they
10:11have is pillaried. They're associated
10:14constantly with the destructive
10:16patriarchy and presented to the world as
10:18enemies of the planet. And so it's not
10:22surprising that they tilt in a let's say
10:24feminized direction especially to
10:26appease the angrier women. And there's a
10:29deeper problem here that I'd like your
10:30thoughts on. you know the the most woke
10:34disciplines in the universities and
10:35that's really saying something are the
10:38female dominated the more female
10:40dominated they are there's another
10:42contributing factor right so the less
10:46cognitive power the discipline requires
10:48the more woke it tends to be so physics
10:51is the about the least woke discipline
10:54whereas social work well you know enough
10:57the less said about social work the
10:59better but so we have an issue here too
11:02because I have a suspicion. You tell me
11:05what you think about this because I'm
11:07very curious that the
11:09default female ethos let's say
11:15is nurture this isn't really a radical
11:19idea I I don't think is nurturer to
11:22infant and in the absence of managerial
11:26training let's say or uh rigorous
11:30mentoring in the operation of
11:31large-scale
11:33organizations
11:35every situation turns into an
11:39infantileized family. I mean and you you
11:42it's become absolutely preposterous in
11:44universities. I mean the faculty to
11:47their own discredit have been
11:48infantileized by the administrators. You
11:50know we have never seen a large-scale
11:53incursion of women into large
11:56organizations prior to the last 40
11:59years. That's never happened in human
12:02history. And we have no idea what the
12:05social psychopathology that would be
12:07associated with that as well as the
12:09positive benefits. We have no idea what
12:11the social psychopathology might be, but
12:13the infantileization of everyone and
12:16everything might well be it. And so I'm
12:19I'm curious about about what you think
12:21about that. You know, there is data, for
12:23example, that women prefer male
12:27supervisors. So that's one, you know,
12:29it's not overwhelming. It's not
12:31overwhelming data, but it's suggestive.
12:33And um and obviously that doesn't mean
12:37there are no good female managers. We're
12:39talking about broad trends here. But we
12:42do potentially have a major societal
12:46issue in that men have their pathologies
12:50that are expressed socially.
12:53Aggression, antisocial behavior, drug
12:56and alcohol abuse, uh a tilt towards a
13:00kind of self-serving narcissism in some
13:03cases, but there's no reason to assume
13:05whatsoever that women wouldn't bring
13:06their own pathologies to the workplace.
13:09and and it is the female dominated
13:12institutions that seem to be the most
13:14woke. I mean, and that's how the 18 to
13:1734 year olds vote as well, right?
13:19They're radically out of phase with the
13:21entire rest of the culture. So, so what
13:24do you what do you think about that?
13:25What h how how would you reflect on that
13:28like in your personal experience with
13:31the organizations that you've worked
13:33with and the managerial situations that
13:35you've been in? It makes perfect sense
13:38to me. I accept that as a likely cause
13:41of the problem that we're seeing and
13:43probably the more the more than likely
13:45culprit of it. I I see exactly what
13:47you're saying and you know it's I guess
13:50with today's generation I ask is it it's
13:52like a chicken egg like these woke
13:54institutions are trying to exploit girls
13:57natural empathy as I said
13:59but those women at some point were the
14:02first ones in to a system that hadn't
14:05been exploiting their their empathy and
14:08they ran wild with it clearly because
14:09we're now at the place we are and I see
14:12it being done. I see I we just played
14:14videotape on the show today from Peak
14:16BLM right after George Floyd. Oh yeah.
14:19The riots everywhere. And one of those
14:21infamous videos where BLM members got up
14:24in the face of it happened to be a a
14:27woman of color. She looked Latina to me,
14:29sitting there trying to eat her lunch at
14:32an outdoor cafe. And the BLM crowd was
14:35moving in on her, standing over her,
14:38screaming in her face, trying to get her
14:40fist up to say be black lives matter.
14:43And it was all white women. And I
14:47remember this from when I lived on the
14:48Upper West Side, which included 2020
14:50during the George Floyd of Palooa. Um,
14:53and it was all white women who tended to
14:56have some money in their Lululemon out
14:59there at these BLM protests. It's like,
15:01okay, these women would never want that
15:03crowd coming back to their apartment
15:05building with them at the end of the
15:06day, but they want to be out there on
15:08the streets and pretend that they're one
15:09of them, that they understand the
15:11experience that, you know, your average
15:13inner city person of color has had. It's
15:15a lie. Um, so I accept because I've seen
15:18women behaving terribly over the past
15:20five years in particular and they're at
15:23the apex of the bad messaging and
15:25they're the last to come along on the
15:27Trump train which is also disturbing.
15:29You know those same stats I've seen from
15:31that you're citing with young women in
15:33particular. They're obsessed with
15:34abortion which I just think speaks to a
15:37lot of things like the absence of
15:38religious in the religion in the public
15:40square. No one's even telling them the
15:42other side or the other options. you
15:44know, you we had laws at one point where
15:46you'd have to show women the picture of
15:47the fetus before they could abort it and
15:49those got struck down. It was like, no,
15:51you can't even show her what she's
15:52doing. So, I just think the whole system
15:55is set up to breed that kind of woman.
15:57Like, you'd almost think that it's what
16:00it's the kind of woman that society
16:02wants because they're so prevalent.
16:05Welcome to this episode of
16:08Parenting. Our 13-year-old throws
16:10tantrums quite often, loud screaming
16:13tantrums when he doesn't get his way.
16:14There's a time in every child's life
16:16when he or she realizes they stand on
16:18the precipice of adulthood. It's during
16:20this window that learning responsibility
16:22becomes crucial. We're trying to figure
16:23out how to get him through this part of
16:25his life, become a responsible adult.
16:27They don't learn how to be autonomous in
16:29your household when they're teenagers.
16:31How do you expect that they're going to
16:32be able to take care of themselves when
16:34they leave home? Be really good to get
16:36this under control. You have to sit down
16:38with your husband or wife and you have
16:40to see not only where you think things
16:43have gone wrong very concretely around
16:46specific episodes, but you have to flesh
16:48out a vision of what you would rather
16:50see instead. You're going to get push
16:53back, but better late than never.
16:59[Music]
17:03Well, you know, the the question is, you
17:05know, did we tilt in that direction with
17:07uh there's certainly a strain of
17:10feminism that developed particularly in
17:12the 1960s, although it was long there
17:14long before that that really did in some
17:16ways aim at that kind of women. And let
17:19let me ask you something as well that's
17:21that's deeper. You know, I've studied
17:24malevolence as deeply as I can for a
17:28very long time. and the the
17:30philosophical representations of
17:32malevolence and the theological
17:34representations of malevolence. And the
17:37the deepest representation is
17:41luciferian. And that trope underlies
17:45like the evil scientist in in you know
17:48popular entertainment. The idea of the
17:50intellect gone mad. the intellect that
17:53worships itself that then usurps and
17:56attempts to put itself in the highest
17:58place. And so there's an idea that this
18:01is Milton's idea that you know Lucifer
18:04who's the spirit of the unbridled
18:05intellect, the lightbringer is the
18:08spirit that was most finely made that
18:10went most dreadfully wrong. And so the
18:13psychological idea there is that there
18:15isn't anything more remarkable about
18:19human beings than their cognitive
18:21ability. But if it becomes master
18:24instead of serving something higher than
18:26look the hell out. Now there's an echo
18:29of that that's very very deep with
18:31regards to the maternal instinct. And I
18:35think this is what's played out in the
18:36Genesis story of the consort between Eve
18:39and the serpent. What seems to me to
18:42happen is that Eve clutches the
18:46poisonous serpent to her breast. And so
18:49that's that's an overextension of that
18:53empathy that you described, which is the
18:55core element, let's say, of the maternal
18:57instinct and really the instinct that
18:59the species itself depends on, right?
19:02Human beings have the longest dependency
19:04period of any creature by a lot. And
19:07human infants are marketkedly helpless.
19:10And so that self
19:14um sacrificing compassion that's at the
19:18core of the maternal instinct is
19:20absolutely vital. But as Freud pointed
19:22out, if that goes wrong within families
19:26and overextends its view, its its domain
19:30so that for example the that infant
19:34mother bond isn't attenuated as the
19:37child develops, then there's nothing
19:39that's more devouring than the mother.
19:42That's the story of Hansel and Gretle,
19:44right? They go out into the forest um
19:47chased there not chased there in part by
19:51um the fracturing of their family and
19:56they find a gingerbread house which is a
19:59little bit too good to be true, right?
20:01It's not only a house, but it's made out
20:03of candy. And so maybe you might suspect
20:07that the jig is up when something's
20:09painted that beautifully on the outside.
20:11I'm oh so compassionate and and
20:14embracing. And of course inside there's
20:16a witch whose goal is to fatten up the
20:19children and to make them helpless so
20:21that she can eat them. And so fairy
20:24tales are pretty vicious in that sort of
20:26representation. But that's also a rep
20:29that's also a portrayal of
20:35how all devouring the maternal embrace
20:39can be. if it doesn't if it overextends
20:44its domain. Now, you know, it's not like
20:47men get off easy in that Genesis story,
20:49by the way, when Eve decides she's going
20:51to put herself at the center of the
20:53moral universe because that's what she
20:54does. She's tempted to become like a god
20:57because that's the temptation and she
21:00clutches the serpent to her breast. Adam
21:03doesn't object and he and he goes along
21:07for the ride. And then later in this
21:09story,
21:11um, when God wants to walk with Adam so
21:14that they're working together, let's
21:16say, Adam is hiding behind a bush
21:19because he's realized that he's naked.
21:21And so the woman and the serpent have
21:24made himself conscious and now he
21:26doesn't have the courage to walk with
21:28God. And when God asks him why, he
21:31blames the woman and he blames God for
21:35making her. And so there's a like I
21:37don't want to lay this all at the feet
21:39of women because what I saw in the
21:40universities for example is that let's
21:42put it this way that when the maternal
21:45instinct went astray partly because it
21:48didn't have any valid target um the men
21:52just backed off and didn't oppose it.
21:55And so you know they're they're
21:58complicit in
22:00this
22:01disintegration. But we do have a problem
22:04on our hands that's not trivial. And we
22:06also see this reflected in a growing
22:08political divide between young men in
22:11particular and young women all across
22:12the world. Right. Young men are becoming
22:14more conservative. Yeah, I know. Young
22:16women are be and young women are
22:19becoming more liberal and they're also
22:21not finding each other very effectively.
22:24What the political, you know, who would
22:26have guessed that, you know, so we got
22:28two problems. Men and women both have
22:30the vote. Now, does that mean they're
22:32political enemies? Because that's
22:34certainly one of the things that appears
22:35to be happening. And then we have the
22:37mass migration of women into work forces
22:42of a size where empathy cannot be the
22:45regulating principle. You know, I I'll
22:47give you one more example and then I
22:49I'll turn it over for your comments.
22:54If empathy was
22:55the appropriate ethos for operation in a
23:00corporation, let's say of beyond the
23:02size of the family, then the personality
23:05trait agreeableness, which is the index
23:08of compassion and empathy, would
23:10positively predict workplace performance
23:13particularly among managers. But it
23:16isn't agreeableness that predicts. It's
23:18conscientiousness, which is a cold
23:20virtue that typifies conservatives more
23:24than
23:25liberals. Big organizations run on raw
23:28cognitive power and conscientiousness.
23:30They don't run on empathy. Little bitty
23:33families run on empathy, especially when
23:36there are infants. But that doesn't
23:38scale. And I actually think that's why
23:40the personality trait conscientiousness,
23:42which is diligence, orderliness,
23:45industriousness, is associated often
23:47with patriotism and more conservative
23:49values. I think that's why it evolved
23:52because empathy does not scale and
23:55because everyone isn't a big happy
23:58family and once you exceed kin group
24:01size in your organization you have to
24:03turn to a different ethos and that I
24:07think that's particularly problematic
24:09for unconscientious women who self
24:13arandize on the basis of their
24:15compassion.
24:17Yeah, there a lot in there and I I agree
24:19with a lot of it. I I keep thinking
24:20about the fact that look, I was raised
24:22I'm a Gen Xer and I was raised by a a
24:26boomer, right, who was part of that
24:29first wave of feminism who, you know,
24:32they were told, you can have it all, you
24:33can have it all at the same time, and
24:35you're kind of a failure if you don't
24:37have it all at the same time. And uh
24:40that generation of mothers did as told
24:43and left their kids alone for a large
24:46portion of their childhoods. And that
24:48wasn't a bad thing. And I I have a great
24:50relationship with my mom. I'm not saying
24:52I'm glad she wasn't around that much.
24:53But it led to self-sufficiency and
24:56independence and absolutely no
24:59overbearing motherhood. That wasn't a
25:01thing in the 1970s or the 1980s. We were
25:05so neglected. We were called latch key
25:06kids where you had a key around your
25:08neck to let yourself back in after you
25:10walked home from school. And you didn't
25:12really know when your parents were going
25:13to come home. There were rules like, you
25:15know, be home when it gets dark. your
25:17parents had no idea where you were and
25:18really didn't care. Um, those were good
25:21things. Those were, you know, building
25:23the ties for appropriate separation at
25:26the earliest possible age. Love always
25:28remains, caring and all that stays, but
25:30not
25:32overbearing motherhood or fatherhood for
25:34that matter. And that generation, so
25:38that's me now, and maybe my brother and
25:40sister, you know, who are older. And I
25:42think we'll raise the next we'll raise
25:44the solution to the problem that came
25:49just a little bit after we came because
25:51I think what started to happen was those
25:52women got into the workforce and they
25:54were doing it all and they would commit
25:56to work because there was there was an
25:58understanding that they would not blow
25:59it for the next generation of women.
26:01They'd been given the keys to the
26:02kingdom. Now you come in and you do well
26:04at these jobs and and you don't talk
26:07about your kids and you don't leave to
26:08go home early and you don't insist on
26:11flexible work schedules. So the women
26:13did it and they raised tough Gen X kids
26:16who were fine. But as they started to
26:18get more rights at the office and it
26:19sounds great on paper. Okay, flex time
26:21and I only have to work part-time and I
26:23have to leave early for this thing and
26:24the other thing and so on and the
26:26workplace started to bend more to
26:28supporting what mothers needed in their
26:30motherhood motherly roles. uh the
26:32mothers were home more and I think
26:35started to overcorrect started to see
26:37like go go go from the latch key kid to
26:40the you know I'm ne the helicopter
26:42parent right where I'm never leaving you
26:44alone I'm going to I'm going to somehow
26:46overcompensate and be the parent that I
26:48didn't have or that the generation
26:50before me didn't have and slowly we
26:52started to migrate to parents who never
26:54leave their children alone mothers and
26:56fathers for that matter but especially
26:58mothers and that leads to helplessness
27:00and it leads to leaning into
27:03victimization and finding the newest
27:04disorder and overplaying any injury
27:07because you can get attention that way.
27:09Especially when you have a mother who's
27:10whose competition you can potentially
27:13beat by overacting your injury or you're
27:15upset, etc. Like if you're in
27:17competition with a job and she's got to
27:18go to the job and you know that you
27:20don't you don't do anything as the
27:21child. You understand that's the deal.
27:23But if there's a split between her
27:25attentions and you've got to play for
27:27it, I think you lean into more upset,
27:30more victimhood, more things that would
27:31get a mother's attention naturally, like
27:33I have a disorder. I'm not well. I need
27:36extra help. Yeah. Well, that that'll get
27:38her attention if she doesn't have
27:39anything better to do and, you know, has
27:41no sense, right? Because but that is
27:43another example of that exaggeration of
27:46compassion to the point that it becomes
27:48toxic and the the fact that it's
27:52necessary to human beings um especially
27:55in the early years like vital also means
27:58that it's a very power it's a very
28:01difficult force to regulate. I mean, the
28:03general rule for caretaking, and this
28:05goes for the elderly as well, pretty
28:07much anybody you're actually taking care
28:09of, is don't do anything for anyone that
28:12they can do for themselves, right?
28:14Because you're actually stealing from
28:16them, not helping them. You know, I
28:19mean, certainly one of the rules for
28:21psychotherapy in so far as there are
28:24actual rules for that enterprise, which
28:26has probably become now more destructive
28:28than useful, is that people have to make
28:32their own way, right? You listen and you
28:35help people strategize and you ask them
28:37questions, but you don't provide them
28:40with the direction for their life
28:42because that's their enterprise. And
28:46that requires a very well it it requires
28:49a hard bound on compassion that's for
28:51sure because you don't want to get in
28:53there and and interfere. Can I ask you a
28:56little bit about the way that you
28:59constructed your own family and career
29:02pathway because I've been working with
29:04my wife trying to sketch out she does a
29:08podcast on issues related to femininity.
29:11Um, and we've been trying to sketch out
29:15at least hypothetically something like a
29:18appropriate timeline for young women
29:20because they have real no no real
29:22guidance in that. And so here's a stat
29:24for you.
29:26Um, we hit this milestone last year.
29:30Half of Western
29:32women 30 and under have no child.
29:36So it's a little more than half now. So
29:38we we hit more than half. um half of
29:42them will never have a
29:44child and 90% of them will regret it.
29:48That means we're setting up this is a
29:50catastrophe. This is a catastrophe if
29:52it's true and the data are pretty clear.
29:54I believe this means we're setting up
29:57one woman in four for
30:02isolation, right? And that's that gets
30:05increasingly brutal as you get older.
30:07And I also think we're setting up that
30:0925% of women to be prayed upon in a
30:13manner like nothing we've ever seen when
30:15they enter their later years because
30:18they'll have no one to keep an eye out
30:22for them, especially during times of
30:24vulnerability. This is not going to be
30:26good. So, so let me sketch out an idea
30:30for you in terms of a timeline and tell
30:32me what you think about that. I mean,
30:34one couple in three have fertility
30:36problems by the age of
30:3830, and that's defined as not being able
30:42to conceive within a year of trying,
30:44right? And so, it seems pretty obvious,
30:48um, all assistive reproductive
30:52technology, notwithstanding, which is
30:54very expensive and very unreliable and
30:56certainly not something to be depended
30:58on except in cases of absolute
31:01necessity.
31:03um having your children before you're 30
31:07is a wise move if you want to ensure
31:10that it's going to happen. And so then
31:12the question is order. You know, you're
31:16we're best served probably as human
31:19beings to have our children in our 20s
31:23and probably our early 20s. And of
31:26course that's going to be more demanding
31:29for women. More demanding and more of an
31:31opportunity I would say because each
31:35child really requires something
31:37approximating 3 years of pretty
31:39dedicated care. You know the data seem
31:42to show that if your child is three and
31:44reasonably social
31:47then social education daycare can can
31:53work. before that, especially with
31:55transformation of caregivers, it's it
31:57doesn't look like it's a very good idea.
31:59So, you need 3 years per child. Um, and
32:03maybe you want two children or three
32:05children. And so, that's something like,
32:07I don't know, five or six years that you
32:09have to devote to it. Now, women live
32:11about six or seven years longer than
32:13men. So, that's kind of an interesting
32:15little twist on the whole situation. And
32:18if you started your career at 30, you
32:21could have 40 years of career, which is
32:24a lot.
32:26And that way I would say in some ways
32:29you get to have your cake and eat it
32:31too. Although perhaps not at the same
32:32time, you know, which we had talked
32:34about early. But there are no real
32:36guidelines developmentally for young
32:38women and they don't know what to do and
32:40they're increasingly not married and
32:42they increasingly don't have children
32:44and they're increasingly unhappy and it
32:47doesn't look to me like slave to a
32:50corporation is necessarily a substitute
32:53for family life and children. Now some
32:57people have a career, you have a career,
33:00some people have a career, most people
33:02have jobs. So anyways, I'm not saying
33:06that that's a hard and fast rule. Um,
33:11but I don't really see any way around
33:14it. And here's another little twist that
33:16that is worth adding. I think most
33:18people who are popular and attractive
33:20get five chances to establish a
33:23permanent relationship and that's about
33:25it. That's fascinating, right? Well, you
33:29know, well, you figure Well, figure it's
33:31a year to kind of get to know someone.
33:34Yeah. And then assume that, you know,
33:37you're fortunate enough so that people
33:39are lining up, which is not that likely
33:42and probably not the position that most
33:44people are in. And so maybe it's 2 years
33:48including the failure and five is a
33:5110ear span. You know, I mean, I'm not
33:55trying to be overwhelmingly pessimistic,
33:57but I wouldn't say it gets easier as you
34:00get older. You get more different from
34:02other people.
34:04Um, it isn't easier to establish a
34:07relationship when you're older, I
34:09wouldn't say. And more people are
34:10snatched up.
34:12Well, there's that. That's a big
34:14problem. You know, who's left? And the
34:17other issue I would say too that's
34:19germanine
34:21is why wouldn't you want to spend your
34:24young years with the person that you
34:26want to be with you know you're going to
34:28what forestall that for for what reason
34:31you know I got married to Tammy when I
34:33was 27 I think and um one of our regrets
34:38is that we didn't do that earlier now
34:40there were reasons for that and maybe
34:41they were valid probably they weren't
34:44but I'm not happy that that time was
34:49missed. It would have been better to
34:51have spent it together. So, I'd like
34:53your thoughts on that. I mean, the
34:54timeline, the just that general layout.
34:58I mean, I think there's no problem in
34:59setting out those honest truths which
35:01are your life will be happier if you
35:05have a partner and children. I just
35:07think that's just true. And people
35:09should be told that. And then they
35:10should be told the realities of of
35:12fertility because those are realities
35:14that you know can be potentially meddled
35:16with but there's no guarantee. And if
35:19you cannot if you're one of the people
35:20who cannot meddle with it and you missed
35:22your window, it will be a lifelong
35:24regret that will be unsolvable and will
35:26be like a deep source of pain, an
35:29ongoing deep source of pain. So it's not
35:31something that you could easily brush
35:32off. And so all those truths need to be
35:34shared while at the same time
35:37prizing and sharing the fullness of the
35:40rewards of motherhood with young women,
35:42which isn't done. That's the other piece
35:44of it. Like if you listen to Jordan, if
35:46you listen to Ben, if you listen to, you
35:48know, the Daily Wire, you'll hear that.
35:50You won't hear motherhood, early
35:51motherhood or any kind of motherhood
35:53generally bashed. You'll hear it
35:55praised. But in society still in the
35:58movies, on the television shows that
35:59women watch, um it's not. you're still
36:02like you still hear she's just a
36:05stay-at-home mom, you know, or she
36:07doesn't work. They still don't look at,
36:09you know, motherhood as something
36:10that's, you know, something valuable
36:12like work as though it's a bad word.
36:14Motherhood is work, too. It's great
36:16work. It's life fulfilling work. But it
36:18still has this like uh and and women who
36:21I know all over New York and now I'm in
36:23Connecticut. They say things like it's
36:26very important to me that my daughter
36:29see me going to a business meeting. Like
36:31mommy's got a business meeting or going
36:33to the office if they have just like
36:35some small meeting. And I'm like why?
36:38Why? Because they don't think the
36:39daughter will think that they're
36:40important if they don't have some sort
36:43of business pressing on them which is
36:45absurd and hashtag part of the problem,
36:47right? Like no, we we all need to be
36:49teaching young girls and boys that
36:52motherhood is enough. Like being a
36:55mother is a completely valid, beautiful,
36:58awesome, really important choice. I
37:00actually went to my daughter's school
37:01and I said, I think it's fine you have
37:02career night. It's an all girls school
37:04and you bring in doctors and lawyers and
37:06journalists and whomever. You need to
37:08bring in a stay-at-home mom. You need to
37:10have somebody stand up there and tell
37:11the girls, "I made a totally different
37:14choice." And so much the better if she's
37:16got a great education and she can say,
37:18"Yeah, I I I have all the same skills
37:21you have, and I was on the exact same
37:23path as you were." And I loved learning
37:26and being introduced to the classics and
37:28being able to sit around a dinner table
37:29with so-called intellectuals and know
37:31the references. And I to I chose a
37:34totally different path when I graduated
37:36from those schools because there was one
37:38thing that was most important to me. And
37:39let me tell you how that's rewarded me.
37:41The school did not do it. Okay? So, you
37:43know, we've got a counter program at
37:45home. So, having said all that, I'll
37:46tell you my own personal experience
37:48which doesn't really reflect that way of
37:51thinking or or the this recommended
37:53course at all. And yet still, I'm very
37:57very happy. I'm I'm a very contented
38:00person. Happy is a charged word, but I
38:02really am very happy with my life. I'm
38:04contented. I have a very very strong
38:06marriage and extremely intact, loving,
38:10present and meaningful relationships
38:11with my three kids, but I also have a
38:14very large career that's been hugely
38:17successful. Not to be self agrandizing,
38:18I'm just saying like on the scales of
38:20careers, mine has worked out very well.
38:22So, in no way did I really sacrifice
38:24much on in that lane. And I realized
38:27this puts me in the 0.00001%
38:3000001% of people and probably even, you
38:33know, fewer percent of women. Um, so the
38:37the way that I did it was not that
38:41unconventional for, you know, when I
38:43grew up. Um, I was definitely part of a
38:45generation that felt you work, you know,
38:48you you get to work, you graduate from
38:49college, go to college, but when you
38:51finish college, you work. That's the
38:52thing you do. But in my case, Jordan,
38:55from that day to this, I've always loved
38:58working. I love it. It's totally
39:02exciting and interesting and
39:05intellectually stimulating to me. And I
39:07cannot imagine not doing this. It's been
39:10really important to me. And if I looked
39:12at the 21 or 22 year old version of me
39:15versus me now, or let's say when I had
39:18my kids, which was later, 38, 40, and
39:2042, um, I guarantee you I personally,
39:25this isn't true of everybody, but I
39:26personally would not have been anywhere
39:28near as good a mother. I was much more
39:31selfish and less capable of giving. And,
39:34you know, I was more of a taker like
39:35most young people are, not all, but
39:37most. And so I really think that the
39:39calm I've brought to motherhood, the
39:41life lessons, the wisdom has been a boon
39:44to my children who are calm and cool and
39:48not panickers and have a wisdom about
39:50them that I think you kind of get
39:52through osmosis and maybe some genetics.
39:54I but they're in a very good place. I
39:57think in part thanks to the fact that I
39:59was it's not age related for everybody,
40:01but for me I didn't reach that place in
40:04my life until I was older. And
40:06unfortunately, it wasn't planned this
40:08way because I didn't meet my husband
40:09till we were 35. But
40:12unfortunately, and believe me, I think
40:14about it all the time, it means that my
40:16children and I have a shorter runway
40:18together. And I hate that fact. I It
40:22haunts me. I'm so grateful that I have
40:24them at all, you know, unlike so many
40:26women who weren't this fortunate. But I
40:28hate the fact that every time we talk
40:30about their lives, I'm calculating, you
40:33know, it's his age plus 42. That's what
40:35I'll be, you know, when my youngest has
40:38his children. And boy, my kids better
40:40have kids young if they want me to be
40:43part of that child's life at all. If
40:45they want if I if I get to be a
40:47grandparent and it's it's its own
40:49special form of pain, you know, like
40:52would I have
40:54traded my career building and the doing
40:57the things that I love because I was a
40:58lawyer for the first 10 years and then I
40:59switched to
41:00journalism. I don't know if I can say
41:03that. I I didn't meet the right man
41:04until I was 35. If Doug had come into my
41:07life at 22 and I rejected him and then
41:09we went and married different people and
41:11refound each other at 35, that would be
41:13really painful. But I don't have that
41:15regret. We didn't meet until the time I
41:18think God brought us together. And for
41:20me, that was the time. That's when I was
41:22ready. I was ready to not downshift in
41:25my career exactly, but to make
41:27compromises in my career that I hadn't
41:28been prior to that. And I was fully
41:31committed to devoting myself to
41:32motherhood in a way I never had been
41:34before. And some of it was born of the
41:36intense love that I had for my husband
41:38and still have and which my kids were
41:40born into. This swath of like truly mad
41:43romantic love that they're products of
41:46and and are immersed in every day which
41:48is probably the best medicine for them.
41:51So I have no regrets about how I did it.
41:53But I also acknowledge it's not all
41:56roses and unicorns. There are downsides
41:58to doing it the way I did.
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42:58Yeah. Well, you know, our culture is so
43:01youthobsessed and I suppose that came
43:03out of consumer culture in the 1960s
43:07when for the first time in human
43:09history, young people had excess money
43:12to spend and could be, you know, uh,
43:15marketed
43:16at. We we we tend to construe,
43:20especially in popular culture, life as
43:22if it as if you're old by the time
43:24you're 30, right? And oh, Jordan, when I
43:27broke into journalism, I was 32 and I
43:30thought, I'll never be accepted in this
43:31business. I'm too old. I will have no
43:33future in this in this industry. It was
43:35like so silly. That that turned out to
43:38be wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, but
43:40but that that's why it's so useful to
43:43start to start a discussion, let's say,
43:45about the actual span of life. I mean,
43:48you said that one of your regrets, your
43:50potential regrets is that, you know,
43:53you're you you've truncated the time
43:56that you'll have as a grandmother, let's
43:58say. Yeah. And and you you took
44:00advantage of that when you were young
44:01and there was some utility in that for
44:03you. But but that is a price that is
44:06lurking and you know it's very difficult
44:08to tell how it will play out but as a
44:11pattern it's something for people to
44:14give some consideration to. You know,
44:15you optimally you want to be a
44:18grandparent when you're still youthful
44:21enough to
44:22be active and engaged and then you get
44:26to have the um pleasures of having
44:29children again and that's a pretty good
44:33deal and it is something like we're not
44:36good at conceptualizing the entire span
44:38of life consciously. You know that's
44:40what roles were for. So, you didn't
44:42actually have to think about that, but
44:44we have to think about it now.
44:47Um, the there's another perversity in
44:50this that I really have a hard time
44:53figuring out because I would say that by
44:56and large the the feminist
44:59movement that's at the bottom of some of
45:02the things we're talking about has been
45:05a left-wing movement. And I do not
45:08understand for the life of me how in the
45:11world it can be logically coherent that
45:13the left can be
45:16anti- capitalist,
45:18anti-corporate, and
45:20procer. Like I don't I just can't. Yeah.
45:24So there's that. So we could talk about
45:26that for It's like okay, corporations
45:28are evil and there isn't any higher
45:32purpose you can serve as a woman than to
45:34serve one. It's like, okay, I'm I'm not
45:38I'm not exactly sure what to make of
45:40that. Then I want I want to tell you a
45:43weird little story, too. Um, I was
45:45looking at the Brothers Grim Snow White
45:48version recently because I went and saw
45:49the Disney Snow White version, which,
45:52you know, was exactly the sort of
45:53mistake that you'd think it would be,
45:54both to attend and to produce. And so, I
45:58want to just tell you a snippet of that
46:00story. So, Snow White is young and
46:04beautiful and the evil queen wants that,
46:09right? So, she's an older woman who is
46:12competing with the younger woman for the
46:15younger woman's advantages. That's the
46:18evil queen. Okay. Now, Snow White has to
46:20run away from the evil queen, right? And
46:23where does she go? Well, she goes out
46:25into the forest, which is the unknown,
46:27but she goes to where the dwarfs are.
46:30Now, in the Grimms Brother fairy tale,
46:32the dwarfs don't have names, so they're
46:35kind of generic and but they keep an
46:38orderly
46:39house and they work very hard. So, the
46:44Grim Brothers dwarves, now we don't know
46:46how old these fairy tales are, by the
46:47way. There there are have been some
46:50folklorurologists, folklorists,
46:53folklorists, who've traced some fairy
46:55tales back like 10,000 years. They're
46:58very old. Okay. So, it's wisdom
47:01speaking, you could say. So, Snow White
47:04goes to to what? To serve the dwarves.
47:08Okay. So, what does that mean? It means
47:10that to escape the evil queen, she has
47:14to make a pact with ordinary
47:16masculinity, right? She has to serve the
47:19dwarfs. Now, why? Because they protect
47:23her from the evil queen. Now among
47:26primates there is a phenomenon called
47:28fertility suppression which is where
47:31women compete the females compete to
47:33suppress the fertility of other females.
47:37And it's a very widespread phenomenon
47:39that's well known among primatologists
47:41and biologists and it definitely
47:43characterizes human beings. And so the
47:46evil queen in the Snow White story is
47:48suppressing the fertility of Snow White.
47:50Now she runs away from that and takes
47:54shelter among the ordinary men, the
47:56dwarves, let's say, who are the positive
47:59side of the patriarchy, you might say it
48:00that way. When the evil queen comes
48:03back, she shows up again, right? And um
48:07she offers Snow White three gifts. The
48:10first is a bodice that's too tight and
48:12just about strangles her. So that's
48:15exaggeration of sex. It's a narcissistic
48:17exaggeration of sexuality as a
48:19temptation.
48:21The second is a poison
48:23comb. Right. Same thing in slightly
48:26different guys. Right. Right. She's
48:28tempting Snow White to be poisoned by
48:30the worship of her own beauty. That's a
48:32good way of thinking about it. That's
48:34what the evil queen does. The third gift
48:37is the poisoned apple. Now, of course,
48:39that hearkens back to the Genesis story.
48:42Anything you incorporate is something
48:44that changes you. It's like you
48:46incorporate knowledge. And so it's
48:48poisoned
48:50knowledge and the dwarfs can't save her
48:52from that. And that's the situation
48:55young women are in in the modern world
48:57because the evil queen feeds them poison
48:59knowledge. And the qu the deep question
49:02is why? And the real skeptic would say,
49:05well the older, jealous, childless women
49:09are doing absolutely everything they can
49:12to destroy the fertility of young women.
49:14Now there's a correlary to that which is
49:18this happened to die on Hersia Ali for
49:20example. It's often the women in these
49:24brutally patriarchal societies who
49:27enforce the worst impositions on young
49:30women like female genital mutilation for
49:32example is often a practice conducted by
49:35grandmothers. I think about that. Yeah
49:39that's for sure. And so there's a
49:41brutality in this, you know, a brutality
49:44in the and I I think you see it taken to
49:47its logical conclusion, by the way, with
49:49this trans phenomena because the p I
49:52told the bloody Senate in Canada in 2016
49:55when they crammed through that idiot
49:58pronoun bill that was a compelled speech
50:01bill, I told them that they would
50:03produce a psychoggenic epidemic among
50:06young women. Because what happens when
50:09you confuse people about something basic
50:12like their sex, you confuse the most
50:16confused the most. And so, for example,
50:20a 1% increase in unemployment produces a
50:235% increase in psychiatric
50:26hospitalizations because you put a
50:28little pressure on the people who are
50:30barely hanging in there and they're
50:31done. Well, if you take, you know, the
50:34swath of girls or boys, but girls are
50:37more prone to psychoggenic epidemics,
50:40you take the swath of them that are
50:42confused for 15 reasons and you add six
50:45more reasons and they're like, they're
50:46done. And so, and we've, you know, we
50:49can see the full what, the full horror
50:53show. That's the surgical mutilation and
50:58sterilization as the ultimate exemplar
51:01of this evil queen
51:04phenomenon. Really dark. Let me ask you
51:06a question about it. Yeah. Do you think
51:08in this scenario that the evil queens
51:11are conscious of what they're doing or
51:14it's just that's great question. It's
51:16their own self-loathing working its self
51:19out. Well, here's well here's a way of
51:21thinking about it. Every time you make a
51:24decision, you're conscious of it, but
51:27you make a lot of micro decisions and
51:30you don't remember them, right? Like you
51:33don't remember all the decisions you
51:34made yesterday or certainly not a week
51:36ago, but that doesn't mean you weren't
51:38conscious when you made the decision.
51:41Okay? Now if you make thousand little
51:44decisions in the wrong direction, you
51:47are conscious at each of those decision
51:49points. You you might not be cognizant
51:51of where you've ended up. And you know
51:54that's the tale of many a society's
51:57disintegration into what blind
52:00totalitarianism. Look, when people fail
52:03to speak up in a totalitarian in a state
52:06that's tilting towards
52:08totalitarianism, every time they know
52:11they should say something and they
52:13don't, they're conscious. Now, they
52:16might not be conscious of where they're
52:18going to get to if they keep that up
52:20because that's the road to hell for
52:23sure, but they're conscious every step
52:26of the way. And so, they're culpable.
52:29Now, if you're talking to someone who's
52:31made a lot of bad decisions in therapy,
52:33for example, and trying to help them
52:36identify where they took, you know,
52:39where they met the devil at the
52:41crossroads and made the wrong choice, uh
52:44you're going to have to do a lot of
52:45reviewing. And to some degree, that's
52:49the what representation of all that to
52:52conscious consciousness because it's
52:55become implicit. It's become part of the
52:57way that you look at the world.
52:58but is conscious when you do it or don't
53:01do it. Well, I mean, I I would like to
53:05think
53:06that this is what I've been thinking
53:08while you've been talking with all due
53:10respect because I have a lot of friends
53:11who are Democrat women, but I I feel
53:13like you're talking about liberal women
53:14and not just women because the
53:16conservative women I know are just not
53:19like that. They're just they just have a
53:21totally different set of values and they
53:24live by them and they raise children by
53:26them. And I think we see the results of
53:29it. I don't know why. And not even
53:31necessarily your average Democrat woman,
53:33but but a lot of them, but certainly
53:35leftist women. Yeah. I mean, I just feel
53:38like everything you said applies and
53:39it's obvious. Well, here's another
53:43weird data point. So, psychologists have
53:48known for a long
53:50while that sociologists as well, that
53:53people become more conservative as they
53:55get older.
53:57So that's how the data is explained. As
53:59people age, they become more
54:01conservative. But I have you can take
54:03exactly that same data and you can put
54:05another twist on it. It's exactly as
54:07explanatory and I think it's more
54:08accurate. The reason this hasn't
54:10happened is because academics, including
54:12the researchers, are radically biased in
54:15the favor in the direction of the
54:17liberals. It isn't that you become more
54:19conservative as you get older. It's that
54:22conservatism is the political expression
54:24of maturity and liberalism,
54:28progressivism, and the hedenism that
54:30goes along with it. That self-centered
54:32hedonism that that is part and parcel,
54:34let's say, of the pride movement. That
54:37is the political expression of
54:39immaturity. And so here here's something
54:42else this explains, you know, because
54:44this is a perverse fact. There has been
54:48no economic and conceptual doctrine
54:52that's been more radically discredited
54:54than let's say the radical leftism, the
54:57Marxist brands of
54:59leftism. But it doesn't go
55:02away. So it's not leftism, it's not
55:05Marxism, it's Marxism is the most
55:08radical expression
55:10of hedonistic immaturity. And the reason
55:14it doesn't go away is because hedonistic
55:17immaturity doesn't go away. It battles
55:19with maturity. And as you become more
55:22mature, you become more conservative
55:24because conservatives are
55:27communityoriented and not self-oriented.
55:31Now interestingly as well on the
55:33psychological side there is
55:36no
55:38distinction between thinking about
55:41yourself and being unhappy. Those things
55:44are so tightly aligned that you can't
55:46dissociate them statistically. Right? So
55:49as you become more conservative but
55:52truly more mature, the way you orient
55:55your life is toward the future and
55:57towards other people. Mhm. And that
56:00turns out not exactly to make you happy,
56:02you know, and you you pointed this out.
56:05You said happiness was a fraught word,
56:07and I agree because happiness is a
56:08hedenistic goal.
56:11But secure in your identity, free from
56:15chaotic anxiety, goal-directed,
56:18purpose-driven, and in service to
56:19others. Right? Well, that's not bad.
56:21That's a good substitute for happiness.
56:23In fact, if you were wise and mature,
56:25that's what you would substitute for
56:27happiness, right? That that's why
56:30Pinocchio discovers nothing but slavery
56:32on Pleasure Island, by the way. So,
56:36Right. Because you know, if you're a
56:37slave to your hedonic whims, that
56:39doesn't make you happy. It just makes
56:41you a slave. Right. Right. Right. So,
56:45okay. So, but what but but let me ask
56:47you because Yeah. Yeah. I I I look at
56:49the political divide you mentioned when
56:51we kick this off between young people,
56:53young men and young women. And it
56:56doesn't surprise me one iota that young
56:58women are liberal. But it does surprise
57:01me that young men are now becoming
57:03conservative in greater numbers than
57:05I've ever seen in my lifetime. I mean,
57:07it does and it doesn't. It doesn't
57:09because I follow politics for a living
57:10and I've seen what the left has done to
57:12young men. So, I see it's a natural
57:14gravitation. But what do you think that
57:16that's what's caused it? And and if so,
57:18why aren't young
57:20women open to that? You know, we've seen
57:22some we've seen some some young women
57:25start to vote Trump with the Trump hats.
57:28I tend to believe, maybe I'm totally
57:30wrong, this is completely anecdotal, but
57:31I tend to believe it's they see these
57:33young men who are very proTrump with the
57:35hat and it's kind of cool and they like
57:37the guys wearing those hats and they
57:38like what those guys are saying and the
57:40way they're acting and it's a natural
57:42aphrodisiac. And so ne next thing you
57:44know those women have the hat on and
57:45they're open-minded and they're hearing
57:46it discussed.
57:48Okay. Okay. Let's let's delve into that
57:50a little bit. Um first of all I think
57:53it's happening to young men. I think
57:56that the podcast crowd has had a fair
58:00bit to do with that. And I think the
58:03reason for that is
58:05that they're they that's the only place
58:09that young men find
58:11encouragement. And that encouragement
58:14I've been struck to the
58:16core in my travels and my encounters
58:20with thousands of people or tens of
58:22thousands of people, many of them young
58:24men, how little encouragement is enough.
58:28None is not
58:29enough. Some is enough. And they've got
58:34some encouragement from the podcast
58:37sphere world and that's enough. Now, why
58:42not young women? Well, Megan, one of the
58:44mistakes that pollsters make
58:47is assuming that 16-year-old boys or
58:5118-year-old boys, let's say, and
58:5218-year-old girls inhabit the same
58:54world. They don't because worldwide
58:58women prefer men who are about four
59:01years older. And I would say that
59:03proclivity is even more pronounced in
59:05early, you know, in in the teen years
59:07and in early in the early 20s. So I
59:10think we should be matching young men
59:14against girls who are four years
59:16younger, not the same age. So we'll see.
59:19We'll see how that plays out, you know,
59:21in the in the upcoming years. So that
59:25that would be that would be the first
59:27thing. Um I it is also not obvious to me
59:31that the conservative types have done a
59:33particularly good job
59:36of communicating with young women. Now,
59:38there's a bunch of reasons for that. You
59:40know, like the 18 to 34 year old female
59:43crowd gravitates not towards YouTube and
59:46the longer form content that at least at
59:48one once was the hallmark of YouTube,
59:51but to these more pathological sub um
59:54social worlds, you know, Tumblr was one
59:56of them. Wherever you get a large
59:59aggregation of young women um who are
1:00:03unsupervised, let's say, or unmentored,
1:00:06that's a better way of thinking about
1:00:07it. Look the hell out cuz that's a
1:00:09breeding ground for social pathology.
1:00:11And young young women get a lot of their
1:00:14information. I think it's 60 to 70% from
1:00:17Tik Tok. I know it's terrifying. And Tik
1:00:19Tok is a complete bloody snake pet. And
1:00:21the Chinese and the Iranians and the
1:00:23Russians have a major hand in that. And
1:00:26so that's not good. This is one of the
1:00:28main reasons I'm on TikTok, you know, as
1:00:30a show as a as a content creator. I want
1:00:32my voice out there and I want people to
1:00:34hear me and my message just especially
1:00:36young women to hear it. There's another
1:00:38way and there are different ways of
1:00:39thinking about this. But I, you know, I
1:00:41think about the Trump election, Jordan,
1:00:43and I sat in this very studio that night
1:00:44with a bunch of young men from my son's
1:00:47high school. And there there were 16 17
1:00:50of them. And we were up late, you know,
1:00:53Trump the election wasn't called until I
1:00:55think the 2 a.m. hour. And these guys,
1:00:58you know, they didn't have to be a
1:00:59conser a conservative or a Trump
1:01:01supporter to come here. Probably
1:01:02naturally, a lot of them just were. But
1:01:05when we called it for Trump, and I'm
1:01:06sure you saw this in your own world, but
1:01:08they weren't just like, "Yes, they were
1:01:11like
1:01:13this." Thank God there. They were right.
1:01:16They were head in hands like running
1:01:19their hands through their hair like near
1:01:23tears of It was more than joy. It was
1:01:26like relief. Relief. Yeah. Yeah. Well,
1:01:29could you imagine a 4-year term of
1:01:31Camala Harris and Oh, but when I was the
1:01:34LGBTQ crowd, oh my god, like these guys
1:01:38were that into it because they knew they
1:01:40had seen what happened, I think, to the
1:01:42class ahead of them and the one ahead of
1:01:44that and their older brothers and maybe
1:01:46their fathers, you know, and that's why
1:01:48to me it's so crazy. You've got in our
1:01:50society now Democrats throwing $20
1:01:52million was in the New York Times this
1:01:55week at trying to figure out the syntax
1:01:58to use to connect with young men. I'm
1:02:01like, you're so you talk about being
1:02:04myopic. You you don't have the first
1:02:06idea where you've gone wrong or how
1:02:08profound the loss is. You actually think
1:02:11you're going to be able to reach those
1:02:12boys with their heads in their hands in
1:02:15that sort of profound relief that Trump
1:02:17won by changing your syntax or we've
1:02:20seen some of these Democrat senators
1:02:22throw out a swear word here or there.
1:02:25They they have no idea the depths of the
1:02:29betrayal I think that these young men
1:02:31are feeling from those political
1:02:33leaders. And to me that's that's the
1:02:35biggest divide right now. What the left
1:02:37has done to these young men. not not as
1:02:40much with just just women. I yes, women,
1:02:43but also men of the left who have
1:02:46abandoned them or at least gone along
1:02:47with these dominant women at the BLM
1:02:49protests and in corporate America
1:02:51preaching these things because they
1:02:53can't find their balls to stand up for
1:02:56what they know is right and exercise.
1:02:58Yes, maybe some toxic masculinity here
1:03:00and there. It's actually quite useful.
1:03:02Well, as I said, my experience has been
1:03:05that the best pathway out for those
1:03:08young men is encouragement. Say, you
1:03:11know, you're not who you could be. You
1:03:13could get your act together. There could
1:03:15be a lot more to you if you were willing
1:03:18to develop it. And, you know, don't
1:03:21don't accept the line that you're
1:03:24intrinsically pathological. You know, I
1:03:26had a friend who committed suicide
1:03:28because of that fundamentally when he
1:03:30was about 40. you know, he had brought
1:03:32bought the sort of nihilistic Buddhist
1:03:34line
1:03:36that, you know, the patriarch was evil
1:03:39and male ambition was part of the force
1:03:41that was destroying the world. And he
1:03:42was a guilty colonialist. He lived up in
1:03:45northern Alberta where there was a lot
1:03:47of native Canadians and there was a fair
1:03:48bit of tension there and he wouldn't
1:03:50even defend himself in a physical fight
1:03:52if if it came to that because he was so
1:03:54guilty and you know he and some of that
1:03:57was irresponsibility on his part let's
1:03:59say and unwillingness to grow up and
1:04:02take on the challenges of productive
1:04:05life you know I'm not trying to lay it
1:04:08all at the feet of the social world but
1:04:11I saw that in him and he it did him in
1:04:14by the time he was 40, you know, and he
1:04:17was a very smart, attractive, talented
1:04:19person. He had his problems for sure,
1:04:22but
1:04:23um that betrayal that you describe, it's
1:04:27it's it's strikes right to the core.
1:04:31Mhm. There there's nothing moral about
1:04:36demoralizing young people, young men in
1:04:39the name of defending mother nature
1:04:42against the patriarchy. That is the it's
1:04:46an ancient form of nature worship
1:04:48violation. It always ends in child
1:04:50sacrifice, which is exactly the
1:04:52situation today. It's pathological to
1:04:55the core. And as you said, the
1:04:57Democrats, they all they can do is ape
1:05:00respect for masculinity. I mean, they
1:05:03tried to trot out Tim Waltz as a man,
1:05:07you know? I mean, really, I mean, you
1:05:09know, there are worse examples of men
1:05:11than Tim Waltz, admittedly, but we might
1:05:14also point out that no one's coming to
1:05:16mind, but I'm sure theoretically spent
1:05:18enough time. If you're looking for if
1:05:20you're looking for archetype of
1:05:21admirable masculinity, I wouldn't start
1:05:23with hip. Yeah. I mean, right. Right.
1:05:27Well, the fact that that was even an
1:05:28idea. I'm I'm not trying to denigrate
1:05:31walls specifically, but the Can I just
1:05:34say on the same front? Yes. As horrible
1:05:36as they come. I mean, tampon in the
1:05:38boys' rooms, that that's enough. Tampon
1:05:40Tim is enough to convince me he's not
1:05:42the archetype. But they put those in the
1:05:44military bathrooms in Canada. You know,
1:05:47you know, we So, you know, that they're
1:05:49they they've been in some um you know,
1:05:52bathrooms at Facebook. That was one of
1:05:53the things that Mark Zuckerberg undid as
1:05:55he became more right-wing or more of a
1:05:58Trump supporter. Um, but I think more of
1:06:00about somebody like Doug Mhof to to me
1:06:04he's even more of like the poster boy
1:06:06for this problem because he's married to
1:06:08Kla Harris. He is utterly feckless. If
1:06:12you see him speak publicly or in
1:06:15interviews, all he's trying to do is
1:06:19project sweater man. you know, I would
1:06:22never wear a suit because I'm a
1:06:24sweaterman. I'm approachable. I'm a
1:06:27feminist. I'm a likable. I'm
1:06:30non-threatening. And he buys into all
1:06:32the tropes. You know, I'm married to a
1:06:34professional, successful woman. I'm
1:06:36happy to be the second gentleman, not
1:06:38threatened by it at all. Only in his
1:06:40case, as it is in so many of these
1:06:42people who bend over backward to live up
1:06:44to that image, it's all fake. He's
1:06:47actually not a supportive partner at
1:06:49all. He's not comfortable in his own
1:06:51skin. And I mean, I don't like the word
1:06:53feminist and I don't call myself a
1:06:55feminist, but I think there is you could
1:06:56create a definition of that word that
1:06:58would be flattering. You know, it could
1:07:00be used in modern day America in a way
1:07:02that could really embody what what could
1:07:04be great about femininity. Anyway, my
1:07:06point is he's not it. And he is behind
1:07:09the scenes, according to the Daily Mail
1:07:12and the woman to whom it happened, a a
1:07:15an abuser, a physical abuser of women.
1:07:18So, it's always those guys, right? The
1:07:20ones who are totally against the
1:07:22patriarchy and the first to speak out
1:07:24against toxic masculinity and throw
1:07:26their fellow men under the bus as a sex
1:07:29as problematic, who, you know, are in
1:07:32the sweater and saying they'll be second
1:07:34gentlemen, and then you find out they're
1:07:37actually beating the women in their
1:07:39life. That's the allegation. I've spoken
1:07:41to his accuser directly. There's plenty
1:07:44of corroborating evidence and not one
1:07:46journalist would even ask him about it.
1:07:47Jordan when they got this guy in front
1:07:49of them. Now, all these self-s serving
1:07:51leftists who say that that kind of a man
1:07:54would be terrible. We wouldn't want that
1:07:55man anywhere near 1600 Pennsylvania
1:07:58Avenue, never mind a role model for our
1:08:00little boys and girls. Not only did they
1:08:03not inquire into the story that when
1:08:04they had him across from them, wouldn't
1:08:07even ask about it. And to me, that is
1:08:10the embodiment of the problem on the
1:08:12left. They elevate guys like that who
1:08:15actually are complete shits and they
1:08:18want us to celebrate them as
1:08:19non-toxically masculine. Whereas they'll
1:08:22look in at an actual man who will throw
1:08:24a punch in defense of a woman or just a
1:08:27weakling who might be getting bullied in
1:08:29a public setting and say he's the
1:08:31problem. His natural male instincts to
1:08:33protect or compete or get ahead are
1:08:37somehow problematic.
1:08:39Yeah. Well, that's the same ethos that
1:08:41underlies the insistence in so many
1:08:43schools, for example, that there can
1:08:45only be cooperative games, right?
1:08:48There's no winners and losers because
1:08:50we're all winners and there can only be
1:08:52and it's it's so pathological, Megan,
1:08:55because first of all, competitive games
1:08:58are
1:08:59cooperative because everybody plays by
1:09:02the rules. So, they're founded on
1:09:04cooperation, right? They have a the
1:09:06rules of the game are the constitution
1:09:08of the playing field and everyone
1:09:11accepts that. And then if you're a fair
1:09:13player, you abide by the rules in
1:09:16practice and spirit and that's
1:09:17cooperation. And so what it actually is
1:09:19is
1:09:20civilized combat within a container of
1:09:25cooperation. So it's unbelievably
1:09:27sophisticated. And then the victory and
1:09:30the loss issue is well, how about you
1:09:33learn to be a good winner and how about
1:09:35you learn to have some resilience in the
1:09:38face of loss and take some
1:09:40responsibility for it. And all that does
1:09:42is strengthen you in every possible way.
1:09:45And our education systems K through 12
1:09:49are so pathological and so miseducated
1:09:52that they don't even understand those
1:09:55basics about games. Right? And games are
1:09:58the they're a microcosm of society and
1:10:01we get all that wrong. And so that
1:10:03ambitious striving forward towards
1:10:06victory, you might say, that's the
1:10:07hallmark of stereotypical masculinity
1:10:10has become demonized even though it's a
1:10:12hallmark
1:10:13of the civilized conduct that's also
1:10:17protective and resilient. Well, let let
1:10:20me ask you this question. What what if
1:10:21we did an experiment starting, you know,
1:10:23the 202526 school year where we
1:10:27radically changed the so-called academy
1:10:30and we made it much more heavily male
1:10:33the way it used to be. And I don't know
1:10:35what we would do with those women who
1:10:36were formerly in those leadership.
1:10:37They're they're now running these
1:10:39universities. But let's just say we they
1:10:41don't all have to go, but let's say we
1:10:42reduce the numbers
1:10:44dramatically. Forget what where the
1:10:46women go and what we do with them.
1:10:47That's a different problem for a
1:10:48different day. But do you think that the
1:10:50men who would be running those
1:10:51universities would actually change them?
1:10:54Would today's collection of
1:10:56men want to be the men too? That's
1:11:00that's a good question, Megan. Like,
1:11:03well, you know, men what what's the old
1:11:07joke? You know what happened? Never 20
1:11:09women got together and built a boat and
1:11:11traveled to a distant land. Right. I
1:11:14mean, well, we we don't actually Right.
1:11:17Right. Right. Well, we don't we don't
1:11:19actually
1:11:21know, I would say, a tremendous amount
1:11:24about those closed sex dynamics. You
1:11:27know, men are pretty good at sorting
1:11:31themselves out on the basis of
1:11:32competence when they're thrown together
1:11:34in a group. Like, and I think the reason
1:11:36for that, think about it this way
1:11:38evolutionarily, you
1:11:40know, well, why would you ally yourself
1:11:42with the best hunter? because maybe the
1:11:45best hunter is the highest status guy.
1:11:47It's like, well, you don't die. That's a
1:11:49start. And you get to eat and so does
1:11:51your family. And maybe proximity to the
1:11:56top dog confers status. Not the highest
1:12:00status, but you know, do you want to be
1:12:02the quarterback on the winning football
1:12:04team? Yes. But being even the water boy
1:12:07is better than not playing at all. And
1:12:10men are pretty good at that. you know,
1:12:11is if if they're thrown together in a
1:12:13group and there's a task, they sort
1:12:16themselves out pretty quickly in
1:12:17relationship to competence at the task.
1:12:20Now, that can get perverted by power and
1:12:22tyranny and, you know, aggression, but
1:12:25all things considered, that's the that's
1:12:28the way men conduct themselves. Let me
1:12:29ask you something. Let me ask you
1:12:30something. I'm just follow me. My worry
1:12:33about that scenario, this may this is
1:12:36completely offbeat, but I genuinely have
1:12:37this worry is like all the toxins in the
1:12:42environment, all the microplastics, all
1:12:44the messing with hormones that's
1:12:46happening through our drinking water.
1:12:48You know, these guys through no fault of
1:12:50their own may be getting more and more
1:12:53feminine. And it's well it's also the
1:12:56case but ma Megan that women on the
1:12:58birth control pill um are less attracted
1:13:02to masculine men.
1:13:05Well that's it's definitely hormonal
1:13:06manipulation. There's no question. Oh
1:13:08yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and and we like we
1:13:10have we have absolutely no idea
1:13:12whatsoever the political consequences of
1:13:15the birth control pill. We have no idea.
1:13:17They it could be it could be
1:13:19catastrophic for all we know because we
1:13:22don't know what it means that women find
1:13:25masculine men less
1:13:28attractive on the pill than off. Like we
1:13:31don't know what the political
1:13:32ramifications of that are. They don't
1:13:35have to be that great to be determining
1:13:37given the small margins of victory that
1:13:39constitute the typical political
1:13:41campaign. So these these sorts of
1:13:43questions that you're raising like
1:13:44they're they're open-ended. We don't we
1:13:46don't know. And the same thing applies
1:13:48with regards to hormonal alteration in
1:13:50the environment. I think we're finally
1:13:51going to look into it, though. I that's
1:13:52this is one of the reasons why I was
1:13:53such a big supporter of RFKJ is I really
1:13:56think you have someone in there who is
1:13:58very open-minded to looking into those
1:14:01kinds of things. I mean, the the
1:14:02microplastics, gez, I don't even know
1:14:04how we're going to solve that. But there
1:14:05is evidence that it's that it's
1:14:07hormonally manipulating us in a very
1:14:10unfortunate way. And that if that's
1:14:12true, I mean the latest data says that
1:14:14we have the equivalent of five bottle
1:14:16caps worth of plastic in our brains.
1:14:20We'll never be able to solve that. We
1:14:22need medical doctors to actually help.
1:14:24And and and further depressing us is the
1:14:26fact that even if you eliminate all
1:14:28plastics from your life, you never put
1:14:30plastic in the microwave so it doesn't
1:14:31seep into your food, you're inhaling
1:14:33plastics that they're using in Germany.
1:14:35That's what the data are. So to me, I
1:14:38just feel like there's so many things we
1:14:39have to solve for. Even if we were to
1:14:42take out our pen and write the
1:14:43guidelines down and then everybody were
1:14:45to live by them, we have we've lost
1:14:47something as a society when it comes to
1:14:50basic like health, wellness, caretaking,
1:14:55um a structure in the world order that
1:14:57would allow for all those things to
1:14:59blossom. And up until about 2 minutes
1:15:02ago, we were paying zero attention to
1:15:04that as a factor. Yeah. Well, I I guess
1:15:07that's what we hope will transpire as a
1:15:10consequence of this tilt spearheaded by
1:15:14the US towards uh productive
1:15:16conservatism. Hopefully, we'll see that
1:15:18spread. Well, not to Canada by all
1:15:20appearances, but not to Australia calls
1:15:24it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right.
1:15:27Well, look, we should bring this to a
1:15:28close. I know you're I know that your
1:15:30time is uh constrained today. Uh we're
1:15:33going to go over to the Daily Wire side.
1:15:34I think what we'll do there is I think
1:15:36we'll continue a discussion on
1:15:38motherhood per se because I'm curious
1:15:41about how you managed that and also
1:15:45about the manner in which having
1:15:47children shifted the way you looked at
1:15:49the world and also in what you would
1:15:52tell young women about that shift in
1:15:55perspective that's attendant on having
1:15:58your own child which is a very different
1:16:00thing than looking at someone else's
1:16:02child. So I think we'll delve into that.
1:16:04Yeah. And I did a lot of um management
1:16:08consulting with women um as part of my
1:16:12clinical practice and watched a number
1:16:14of them have children at you know in
1:16:17their 30s and later and watched how that
1:16:20what the transformation was like and
1:16:22also the pain that women had when that
1:16:24didn't work. That's not fun. That's not
1:16:27fun. So we'll delve into that on the
1:16:30Daily Wire side. Thank you very much for
1:16:31talking to me today and much
1:16:33appreciated. Um, appreciate your
1:16:36insights on this thorniest of all
1:16:38problems and you know maybe we'll make
1:16:41some headway with it. You know what it's
1:16:43certainly the case that your work on Tik
1:16:45Tok is extremely useful because young
1:16:47women are dying for guidance in the same
1:16:49way that young men were 10 years ago. I
1:16:52know they need some women who aren't
1:16:55evil queens to guide them, you know.
1:16:57That's right. Well, I mean bit by bit,
1:17:00right? Brick by brick, as they say.
1:17:02Yeah, right. Exactly. A typical
1:17:04conservative attitude. Good, good to
1:17:05talk to you, Megan. You too, Jordan.
1:17:07Thanks for having me. And thank you for
1:17:09everybody who's watching on the YouTube
1:17:11side and to the Daily Wire for making
1:17:12this possible to the film crew here in
1:17:15Scottsdale today. And thanks again,
1:17:17Megan.
1:17:20[Music]

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