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The Fear of Being Seen and the Strange Way Out — Transcript

by Joe Hudson | Art of Accomplishment · 6,640 words · 1,019 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00You go into a meeting, you're oh,
0:02there's the person who hadn't said
0:03anything and somehow or another they're
0:05like right there at the table, but
0:06nobody can even remember they were in
0:08the meeting. It's like this amazing
0:09magic trick almost, right? There is a
0:11fear that is if I get seen, I'm going to
0:14be seen as inherently bad. All of the
0:17fear of being seen is a belief that
0:19there's something inherently wrong with
0:21you. If they see me, they will find out
0:24that I am broken, right? And so one of
0:26the ways to work on it is to actually
0:28open your heart to yourself and say,
0:31[music] "What is it that I need?"
0:33Because that flies exactly in the face
0:35of [music]
0:36me worried about what you think.
0:40We've been getting a lot of questions
0:42from people about the fear of being
0:43seen. Why they want it so much, but
0:45they're also so scared of it. And right
0:47when they're about to be seen, about to
0:49be known, they they turn away and run
0:52from it. So, let's do an episode where
0:54we dive into that and then talk about
0:56what people can do about it.
0:57>> Great. Perfect. Yeah.
0:59>> Awesome. So, let's just start with like
1:01what is this? There's there's a lot of
1:02different ways that this can show up for
1:03folks.
1:04>> Yeah. So, the fear of being seen, it can
1:06be split into two categories. There's
1:08the category that people who are just
1:11like acute in this feel, which is, oh, I
1:16am scared. I have social anxiety. I can
1:19figure out how to be completely
1:22like invisible. You go into a meeting,
1:24you're oh, there's the person who hadn't
1:26said anything and somehow or another
1:28they're like right there at the table,
1:29but nobody can even remember they were
1:31in the meeting. It's like this amazing
1:34this magic trick almost, right? For
1:36those folks, it's very much about
1:38like, oh, this isn't safe and so my job
1:41is to avoid. And so there's often times
1:44there's a strong avoidance pattern. And
1:46often times what happened was somebody
1:49in their childhood taught them that like
1:52to be seen was going to be
1:56not good. One of my clients who had this
1:59a lot, he doesn't have it anymore
2:00luckily, but had had this a lot.
2:03[snorts]
2:04He lived in a Eastern European country
2:07and
2:08it was before the wall came down and his
2:12parents were like tall poppy no good.
2:14Particularly his mom, his dad had gone.
2:16So his mom and so his mom was constantly
2:18don't be seen, don't be seen, don't play
2:20the music, don't be too macho, you're
2:23going to get cut down, you're going to
2:24be taken out. And so he was at once
2:27dominated by somebody who was some
2:29somebody's fear and he was told like do
2:33not be big. And so
2:35>> and that might have been true in that
2:37culture.
2:37>> Absolutely. Absolutely. And so he like I
2:41remember he disappeared from the first
2:43time he did Ground Breakers. Just just
2:45was wasn't even in the room. Um and so
2:49that's
2:49>> not physically he was physically in the
2:50room.
2:50>> He was physically in the room but nobody
2:52could remember him. No like he it was
2:55literally as if he was doing a
2:57magician's trick of of being unseen
3:01while being seen. It was amazing to
3:03watch him. And we've now seen that
3:04pattern lots of times. The other form of
3:07not being seen is something that we all
3:09have. I don't think anybody has ever
3:12showed up at a rapid fire coaching and
3:15been completely not nervous, right? And
3:18so the there's a core way in which we
3:20all are scared of being seen and that's
3:22some shame, some way that we're scared
3:25that we're actually not good. We're not
3:27inherently good, that we're inherently
3:29broken in some way. And so to be fully
3:32seen in that
3:34is is a whole another thing that just
3:38kind of hits all people on some level.
3:40And so both of them are are ways of it
3:43that happen. One is this very acute
3:45thing and one is something that happens
3:46for everybody.
3:47>> How does this often play out to the
3:49point in someone's life where they start
3:50to experience that this is holding them
3:52back and what what typically happens at
3:55that inflection point?
3:57>> Yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting thing. I
3:59think on some level
4:02depending on how hardcore it is, right?
4:04So if somebody's got deep social
4:06anxiety, they immediately know this is
4:08holding me back. There's this fear in
4:11that somehow or another they want to be
4:13liked. Like there's this desire, oh, I
4:15want to be liked and there is a fear
4:18that is if I get seen I'm going to be
4:20seen as inherently bad.
4:22>> So there's there's two different and so
4:26they have kind of two choices at that
4:27point. I'm going to just seclude myself
4:30in which they become more and more and
4:32more lonely or I'm going to go out into
4:34the world and interact in the world and
4:38maybe I get more lonely depending on how
4:40real I am or I just stay really quiet in
4:44a crowd and then I feel even more lonely
4:46cuz people don't see me and so the
4:48loneliness builds and this idea that
4:52something is wrong with me builds over
4:54time and they're not even able to see
4:58how people actually
5:01see them. Right? So, I've seen people
5:03who have like either the social anxiety
5:05or scared to say the thing in the
5:06meeting and everybody thinks they're
5:08really really smart and they really want
5:09the feedback, but they can't actually
5:12see it.
5:12>> Yeah.
5:13>> And so, career-wise, this totally
5:15stifles people. It's going to limit you
5:17in like any kind of executive or
5:19leadership role. And so, they start to
5:21see that. They start to recognize that
5:22that's what's going on. Um and then for
5:27most of us like for the for the folks
5:29who are scared of being seen in the
5:32existential way which is you know most
5:35everybody what they start doing what
5:38what starts happening is they just feel
5:40unsatisfied like the this sense of
5:42connection in their life they know it
5:44can be stronger and it's just never
5:46particularly there
5:48>> and it doesn't really go there until
5:51they start really seeing themselves. To
5:54some degree, all of the fear of being
5:56seen is a belief that there's something
5:58inherently wrong with you
6:01and if and you or somebody else is going
6:04to find it out.
6:05>> How does this show up in say romantic
6:07relationships and in family? We've
6:09talked a lot about going out into the
6:10world
6:11>> and you know in work meetings, but what
6:13about what about in love relationships?
6:16>> Devastating.
6:18like it's it's super devastating because
6:20basically what it means is I'm not going
6:22to tell you what I need and what I want
6:24and who I am.
6:26And so if it there and what's
6:28interesting is some people they can be
6:30in this very safe environment and they
6:32can share that and and then some some
6:36people can't even share it in that
6:37environment. Some people can go out into
6:38work and be like this is what I think
6:40blah blah blah blah but when they come
6:41home they can't share what's really
6:43there. They can't share whether it's
6:46like that kinky sexual thing that they
6:47want or they can't share the fact that
6:50they really want to be rich or they
6:51can't share the fact that they really
6:53think your mom sucks and I don't want to
6:56be with her. They can't share all the
6:59like little things that happen in life
7:01and so they start walking on eggshells
7:03and start being different people. And so
7:06it just starts to erode any relationship
7:09because eventually you're going to get
7:10resentful over the fact that the person
7:13across from you isn't actually
7:15considering you or understanding you
7:17because we can't read each other's
7:18minds.
7:19>> Right. Right. So they can't possibly
7:21consider you if you're not showing
7:22yourself. So then you start to collect
7:24evidence over time that you're not being
7:25considered
7:26>> and that you're bad.
7:27>> Yeah. That's the golden algorithm which
7:29we go into you know obviously in other
7:30podcasts and stuff which is oh the more
7:33that I am scared to be seen the more
7:36evidence that I can collect that shows
7:40that oh if somebody sees me there's
7:42going to be a problem.
7:43>> Yeah
7:43>> right because I show up incredibly
7:45scared. People are not
7:48people are not as receptive to fear as
7:50as confidence. you know that that I'm
7:54hesitant in the way that I talk about
7:56something. I'm viewing other people's
7:58responses that might just be curious and
8:00full of wonder
8:01as they don't believe me. They're
8:03they're challenging me and see I I said
8:06something that was bad. And so that's so
8:09it's one of those things that it does
8:11accumulate on itself because
8:15the emotion that we are scared to have
8:19we are avoiding the exact way that we
8:21are actually inviting it in. So I'm
8:23scared to be seen and therefore like
8:27when people see me they see this scared
8:30thing and I don't get the love that I
8:32want. See I've proven that I'm no good.
8:34>> Yeah. So, we've talked about this
8:36belief, the the belief that I'm I'm
8:39unworthy, I'm bad, I'm wrong, I'm
8:41unlovable.
8:42>> Yeah.
8:42>> So, how does this show up on the
8:44different levels like the head, the
8:45heart, the gut? Like, cuz a lot of times
8:47when somebody freezes, they
8:48intellectually know I'm not bad. I have
8:50something valuable to share right now.
8:52What is making my entire body seize up?
8:54Why is my throat clenching? Why? That's
8:56a great question.
8:57>> Why am I sweating? Why did that entire
8:59meeting happen without me even
9:00recognizing what was occurring? Yeah,
9:02it's an interesting one because that's
9:04exactly what you see when you're
9:07>> when rapid coaching is happening. People
9:09are like
9:11and they know Yeah. but their head knows
9:13on some level that they they've raised
9:14their hand. They want this thing and
9:16then when the spotlight's on them,
9:18they're like
9:19>> each one of these things, whether it's
9:20the head or the the human side, the
9:23emotional side or the mamleian side or
9:25the nervous system side, each one of
9:27these things can be on or off. But if
9:29they're on the head is basically saying,
9:32"These people don't like me. They they
9:34if they see me, they're going to think
9:36that I'm bad. I'm bad." That's what the
9:38head is doing. And it's constantly
9:40self-correcting.
9:42You said that wrong. You should have
9:43said it this way. Why didn't you say it
9:45that way?
9:46>> Like all that stuff.
9:47>> I can solve this by intellectually
9:48figuring out the way to be to get my
9:50needs met and love it. Yeah.
9:53>> As if like people need you to be perfect
9:55to to like you, you know? And so that's
9:58what the the head is doing. If the head
9:59isn't doing that and it's just happening
10:01in the in the emotional center and the
10:03nervous system, then the head is like,
10:06why am I why don't just just speak? Why
10:08aren't you just speaking? You know,
10:10which is which is the criticism
10:13of of the parent or the teacher or
10:16whatever saying just do the thing. So
10:19it's like you've actually turned the eye
10:20of Siren on yourself,
10:22>> right?
10:22>> Like what? Like and so you're under
10:24attack.
10:25>> Yeah.
10:25>> Right. And so, and the more you're under
10:27attack, why aren't you doing this thing?
10:29Why why isn't this going right? The more
10:31the the rest of your system starts
10:33freezing up
10:34>> and it ultimately can become a panic
10:36attack, a full-blown literal panic
10:37attack.
10:38>> Well, right. So, it's amazing when you
10:40think about it. It's like to some degree
10:42there's that external eye of Siren like,
10:45okay, the the world is now paying
10:47attention to me. Somebody's going to
10:49criticize me. And the truth is like
10:53there's no time you're going to be in
10:54public where somebody's not having a
10:56judgmental thought about you. [snorts]
10:58Whether you're confident or
10:59non-confident, whether you're scared or
11:01not scared, whether you have social
11:02anxiety or don't have social anxiety,
11:04we're all facing that same reality.
11:08And and then there's the internal
11:11siren. And when that clicks on then that
11:15can really rev up the emotional or the
11:17nervous system side of it. So the
11:20emotional side of it is typically fear,
11:23some version of fear and shame combined.
11:26And so there's fear of the being seen,
11:28but there's also the shame of like if
11:31they see me, they will find out that I
11:33am broken, right? And so the I'm broken
11:36and the fear together is pretty much
11:38what's going on in those moments. Then
11:41the nervous system side is just like
11:44fight, flight, or freeze. That's what's
11:46happening. Often times folks when they
11:50when they are being seen in a meeting or
11:52something like that, they'll just
11:54>> they'll just freeze, right?
11:56>> Or some of them will please, oh, I'm
11:58going to I'm going to I'll say the thing
12:00that makes everybody happy and then and
12:02then they're like, okay, great.
12:03>> Yeah, just blend in.
12:05>> Blend in. And so it's one of those two
12:07things is going to happen on the nervous
12:08system level. And so
12:10>> and it's going to be very activated.
12:12They're going to feel hot. they're going
12:13to feel, you know, like a lot of charge
12:16in the system from the from the nervous
12:18system.
12:19>> Yeah. Okay. So, you you've got you've
12:20got all these layers of a stack here.
12:22You've got the the thoughts, the
12:24emotions, the the nervous system, and
12:26sometimes they're just
12:27>> fighting each other like intellectually
12:30somebody knows I have something valuable
12:31to share here. I showed up to this
12:32coaching session because I want to see
12:34through my patterns.
12:35>> Yes.
12:35>> And the nervous systems locked up,
12:38right?
12:38>> Maybe even vice versa sometimes. So, I
12:41I'd love to talk about now where where
12:43can somebody start working on this
12:44first? What's of all these different
12:47ways that this shows up? What's a what's
12:49a good entry point for somebody to start
12:51investigating to change the pattern?
12:54>> Yeah. So, like I I'll tell you a story.
12:56I had dinner the other night with this
12:58husband and wife team. They're like
13:01really super powerful, doing great stuff
13:03in the world. And the wife, every time
13:08she saw that I saw her, she would,
13:12you know, now she is
13:15like amazing on all fronts. She's a
13:17beautiful person. She's a beautiful
13:19woman, physically beautiful. She's done
13:22crazy cool stuff in the world, achieved
13:24stuff that most people would dream about
13:27achieving.
13:29And as a mom and loving and sweet, like
13:32just like wow, right? And every time I
13:35saw her, she would
13:37look up, look down, like and it's one
13:40point in the meeting, her husband got
13:42up,
13:44went to the bathroom, and I started
13:47talking to her about and she was
13:49basically saying some some version of
13:51like, "My kids, I'm worried about my
13:52kids not getting their needs met. I'm
13:54not worried about me
13:56>> not getting my needs met." I'm like,
13:58"Oh." And she's like, "Yeah, basically
14:00my needs are met." And I just went
14:01through like really emotional being
14:03needs being met. No seen. And she just
14:05like shut down.
14:07>> Her husband came back and he's like,
14:09"Well, did you open up more? Like what
14:11did you say now that I was gone?" She
14:12goes, "No, no, no. I just shut down even
14:14more."
14:15>> And then they laughed about it. She said
14:17it. And then, yeah, it was great. It was
14:19self-aware, too. Right. Amazing woman.
14:21And then and then and then they both
14:24laugh together. But that's like the
14:27quintessential thing of like, okay,
14:29well, what is it that makes her like
14:34this amazing person, but not being able
14:36to
14:38admit her own needs
14:41is very much exactly the same thing as
14:44being seen and what made her scared,
14:46which is this shame
14:49of like, oh, it's not okay for me to
14:52have needs or the needs that I have
14:53aren't okay or who I am generally isn't
14:56okay. And so I'm going to just
14:59evacuate all of my own things that I
15:03need that I that I want because they
15:06must be bad.
15:07>> And so those two things are part and
15:09parcel of the of the pattern. And so if
15:14you're if you're working on the pattern,
15:15there's lots and lots of ways to work on
15:17it. Um, but one of the ways to work on
15:20it is to actually open your heart to
15:22yourself and say, "What is it that I
15:25need?"
15:27Because that flies exactly in the face
15:30of
15:32somebody me worried about what you think
15:35>> you worried about what you're you're
15:36right because I'm now worried. I'm all
15:38about you. I'm worried about you.
15:40>> Which is another way of trying to take
15:42care of your needs. So if if my needs in
15:44if my needs directly aren't safe, aren't
15:48welcome, aren't
15:49>> good, then if I take care of yours, then
15:52by proxy my needs might get taken care
15:54of,
15:54>> right? Except for it never works,
15:56>> right?
15:57>> Or eventually it doesn't work. Which is
15:58why
15:59>> just going, oh, what do I need? Can
16:02totally start changing this pattern at a
16:04core level. So that's one of the ways
16:06that you can really work on how do you
16:09you know how do you change that core un
16:13how do you change that basic fear of
16:15being seen?
16:16>> Yeah.
16:17>> So that's one. The other one is to
16:18actually deeply see yourself,
16:21right? Like what's actually true,
16:23>> right? How how does how does somebody do
16:24that?
16:25>> Well, the dilemma is that most of us
16:26have like soul dysmorphia, right? like
16:29like we see ourselves differently just
16:32the way that an anorexic person looks in
16:33the mirror and sees themselves as fat.
16:35Most of us sees our see ourselves like
16:38not very clearly. [snorts] And so if you
16:41want to have a clean lens of seeing
16:43yourself,
16:44connection course view is like one of
16:46the best ways because if you're
16:48vulnerable with yourself, if you're
16:49impartial with yourself, if you have
16:51empathy with yourself, if you have
16:52wonder about yourself, that's where you
16:54start to see yourself more clearly. And
16:57that ties together with the recognizing
16:59your own needs because you're not going
17:01to be seeing yourself if you're just
17:02seeing everyone around you, reading
17:04their minds, trying to fix them, trying
17:06to get everything okay for them in order
17:08to be safe.
17:08>> Yeah. Exactly. And so the weird part is
17:10like the vulnerable with yourself.
17:12That's the like that's the tricky part
17:14here because what most people think are
17:16is going to be vulnerable is like okay
17:18vulnerably I and I had a client that did
17:21exactly this. I was like they had this
17:24fear of being seen. I'm like like let's
17:26be vulnerable with yourself. He's like,
17:28"The vulnerable thing is that everybody
17:30doesn't like me." [snorts]
17:31You [laughter] know what I mean? And I'm
17:33like,
17:33>> that's still about everybody else. It's
17:35still the dysmorphia. It's the same
17:37pattern.
17:37>> And it's also you're not being
17:39vulnerable because you've told yourself
17:40that story a hundred times.
17:43>> So, what's the actual story that
17:44actually makes you like go uh like what
17:48is that? And like can you see someplace
17:52where somebody actually really liked you
17:53and you couldn't acknowledge it or let
17:56it in
17:57>> that and he immediately he felt how much
18:01more vulnerable that was
18:04than to say people don't like me that
18:06wasn't vulnerable at all
18:08>> and so so the only thing I'd say the
18:10impartiality the empathy and the wonder
18:11that all clicks with this pattern the
18:14vulnerability with yourself in this
18:16particular pattern
18:18doesn't mean I'm admitting that I'm bad.
18:21>> Yeah. [snorts]
18:22>> It means I'm admitting a truth about
18:24myself that I don't want to see.
18:27>> Right. And so that's that's like part of
18:30like switching that around.
18:32>> Yeah. So I mean that example brings up a
18:33really interesting nuance which is that
18:35if you if you say, "Okay, I want to be
18:37vulnerable with myself. I'm going to
18:38look at myself and see myself clearly."
18:40The first thing that's likely to happen
18:41is you're going to see yourself exactly
18:43the way you've been seeing yourself
18:44already.
18:44>> Correct? and you're gonna hide from
18:46yourself exactly the things you've been
18:48hiding from yourself already.
18:49>> Yeah.
18:49>> So there's it seems like in that case in
18:52that coaching moment.
18:53>> Yeah.
18:54>> Something very specific that happened
18:55was actually directing the person's
18:58attention to counter evidence for what
19:01they actually currently thought. So if
19:03you're if you're going internally and
19:04you're like what's what's vulnerable
19:06with myself right now? Nobody likes me.
19:08Okay. If I just assume that that is
19:10actually the story I've been telling
19:11myself already and I haven't seen
19:13anything new,
19:15>> how do I completely invert what I think
19:18I'm seeing?
19:18>> Yeah.
19:19>> And look for the truth in the other side
19:21of it.
19:22>> Yeah. So the nervous system is what's
19:24going to tell you that or the like the
19:26pucker is what's going to tell you that
19:28quicker, right? So intellectually you
19:30can do it by just saying, "Okay, let's
19:32look at counter evidence and what's the
19:33counter evidence I don't want to admit
19:35to?"
19:35>> Yeah.
19:35>> Like that's the easy question
19:37intellectually,
19:37>> right? And that can surface the pucker
19:39like oh wait I have actually been seen
19:41and loved before and then the pucker
19:43shows up.
19:43>> Yeah. Exactly. And like right and then
19:45you're when when you feel that pucker
19:47then you know you're actually in that
19:48vulnerable place rather than in the
19:51place that you're normally telling
19:52yourself or normally beating yourself up
19:54with. So that's another one. The other
19:57thing that you can do if you're scared
19:58of being seen is to open your heart to
20:01the other person. Because what you've
20:03done is you've stopped love and
20:05connection from flowing between you and
20:08the other person. You're worried about
20:11what they're going to think, which means
20:13you've disconnected.
20:14>> Yeah. You've objectified them in a way.
20:16There there's a way that they are now an
20:18object in your game of self-regulating
20:20and feeling safe. Al
20:21>> Also, you're rejecting them.
20:23>> Yeah.
20:24>> Like there's a way in which you're going
20:25to hurt me. Basically, what you're going
20:27to what you're saying is you are going
20:29to hurt me, which is a form of
20:30rejection.
20:31>> Yeah. And so you've already dismissed
20:33them. And so a counteraction is to
20:36actually open your heart to them and
20:38say, "Oh, how like how open and loving
20:41can I be to this person?" No matter what
20:43they think or feel about me, that
20:45doesn't mean that I'm not going to draw
20:46boundaries. It doesn't mean I'm going to
20:47take abuse. It doesn't mean that I'm
20:49going to be like a punching bag for
20:51somebody, but it does mean, oh, right,
20:54I'm going to actually stay connected
20:56with you. So it what's amazing is that
20:59if I choose to be connected with you, it
21:02doesn't really matter if you're
21:04connected to me for my experience,
21:07right? If I'm connected to you and you
21:09can like anybody who's listening to this
21:11right now can just do it. You can just
21:13say, "Okay, like deeply connect with
21:15Brett. Brett is like not connecting with
21:19you right now. Brett's connecting with
21:20me, but like connect with Brett and
21:22notice how much less you give a
21:25what Brett thinks.
21:27about you because there's and how much
21:30that connection doesn't really require
21:32Brett.
21:34So that's the amazing thing is like oh I
21:36can open my heart I can connect with
21:38somebody and that dissipates my concern
21:40with what they think about me which is
21:42like mindbogling
21:45>> and like it just so reverse of the way
21:47that you think things
21:48>> and it as it dissipates the concern for
21:50what they think about you it increases
21:51the wonder for what they're experiencing
21:55which might be thoughts about you
21:56>> right
21:56>> but the wonder replacing the concern is
21:59an interesting shift and opens up the
22:02nervous system opens the sense of safety
22:04and the receptivity
22:06>> to new data, new information.
22:09>> Yeah. And then wonder is another great
22:11one. So, let's just say somebody is you
22:14you're showing up, somebody sees you,
22:18you're like, this is going horribly
22:20wrong.
22:20>> Mhm.
22:21>> Like use wonder. Oh, what are you seeing
22:24right now that's
22:27that that's got you upset? Or how upset
22:30are you at me right now? How are you how
22:33are you feeling about this relationship?
22:34There's like a thousand questions that
22:36will teach you that a lot of what you
22:38think is just not true at all about the
22:41other person.
22:42>> What if the other person has been
22:44running the same pattern? And so you ask
22:45them those questions and then they
22:47finally have the opportunity to dismiss
22:48you and do all the stuff that you've
22:50been doing.
22:51>> Yeah. Great.
22:53>> And so you take that personally. You're
22:54like, I knew it. I knew it. They don't
22:56like me.
22:58>> Yeah. So let let's just assume that for
22:59a second. Let's assume that you are
23:04not being liked by somebody. Well, the
23:07first question is it you that showed up
23:10or is this frozen scared like
23:13>> Right. So, I'm bad cuz I get frozen and
23:15scared. That's just me and people don't
23:17like the frozen and scared and I don't
23:18know how to change it. What do I do?
23:19>> Right. Exactly. So, so the first
23:21question is like is that you? That's the
23:24first question you have to ask yourself.
23:25Is that frozen scared thing you? [sighs]
23:28Like what's you? What do you have to do
23:29to show up to be you? And the second
23:31question that's really good to ask
23:32yourself, are you happy with you? Is
23:35this how you want to be? One of the
23:38things that I notice is that when
23:39somebody's being the way that they want
23:41to be, they care a lot less about what
23:42other people think,
23:45>> right? Because they're not in their own
23:47shame. This is actually I'm really proud
23:49of this. So often times if someone's
23:51like preparing for a meeting or
23:53preparing for like the first date,
23:55they're thinking about what the other
23:57person's going to think about them and
23:59they're [clears throat] trying to manage
24:00that situation. But if they go in and
24:03say, "What's the way that I can behave
24:05that will make me super proud no matter
24:07what happens,
24:10everything starts changing,
24:12>> right?"
24:13>> Yeah. So
24:14>> because you're loving yourself, you're
24:16opening your heart to yourself. And the
24:17opening the heart works whether towards
24:19the other person or towards yourself.
24:21>> You're also moving from a orientation to
24:23outcomes and more towards an orientation
24:25to something that's a more direct
24:27feedback in yourself in the moment of
24:28how do I want to be right?
24:30>> Am I the way I want to be right now? Am
24:32I showing up how I want to show up? And
24:33then everything else that happens, I
24:34don't need to be tracking, predicting,
24:37futuring,
24:39taking personally. All those things get
24:40to fall away if my direct feedback for
24:44my behavior is if I'm showing up in a
24:47way that feels great to me.
24:49>> Right. Which is another version of what
24:51is it that I need?
24:53>> Yeah.
24:54>> Right. It's another version of that
24:55which is oh if [snorts] I'm going to be
24:59proud of myself in this moment, how do I
25:01want to behave? And but so so none of
25:04these things are going to work
25:06absolutely
25:07except for if you have the access to be
25:09able to open your heart. That one's like
25:11a very quick absolute thing. So what
25:13happens for other folks is they're like,
25:15I want to behave this way, but then they
25:17get in there and they're in that nervous
25:18system fight or flight or freeze because
25:21oh my gosh, I'm, you know, like this
25:23it's like this deep trauma of it. And so
25:26there's another way of working with it
25:28which is just exposure. M
25:31>> so you see this happen a lot when people
25:33do our work all of our courses there's a
25:35lot of being seen and as they are seen
25:39they become more and more comfortable
25:40with themselves
25:42>> I mean it's this amazing thing so
25:45you know how many people have we seen go
25:47through the connection course and they
25:48get deeply seen by five different people
25:51over the series of the course and then
25:53they're they're just like so much more
25:55comfortable in who they are and so it's
25:58the same thing that you see in like
25:5912step programs
26:01or
26:02group therapy where the more I speak
26:05about the thing and I'm seen in it, the
26:07less I care what people think, you know?
26:11So, I remember there was a time when I
26:13was in my 20s and I'm like, "My dad's an
26:14alcoholic and everybody's going to judge
26:16me." Now, I'm like, "Yeah, my dad's an
26:17alcoholic." I'll say it on like public
26:19everywhere. It doesn't like, "Yeah, my
26:21dad was an alcoholic." I don't see that
26:24at because I have no shame around it
26:25anymore.
26:26>> Yeah. And the places that I am I'm not
26:30where I'm scared to be seen are the
26:32places where I have the shame and which
26:35gives tells me this is the place where I
26:37have the freedom and shame. One of the
26:40best ways to to just address the shame
26:43is to share it with people and notice,
26:46oh, they're not ashamed. They don't
26:48think there's something broken with me.
26:50Or to notice, wow, we all have that.
26:52Like [laughter] every like everybody has
26:55a parent, not everybody. Most people
26:56have a parent that was addicted to
26:57something somehow, emotion, television,
27:00something like most people have shame,
27:03most people have fear, most people like
27:06these are all human experiences.
27:08>> Yeah. Yeah. So, it's interesting. It's
27:09like both of the ways out are either
27:11recognizing I'm not alone in thinking
27:13this or I was alone in thinking this.
27:15Like this was only a thought in my own
27:16head like I'm the only one I invented
27:18this. Exactly.
27:19>> It's kind of funny how that's like both
27:21of those seem to be a way out.
27:23>> Both. Yeah. And and and and the exposure
27:26just oh I am going to little ways be
27:31seen every day.
27:32>> Yeah. And the thing that that does is
27:34that most of the people who who feel or
27:36are scared of being seen but want to be
27:38seen, another experience that they have
27:40a lot of is that they're lonely. And so
27:43this stops the loneliness. So like
27:45recently I was talking to my daughter
27:48and she was just noticing like she's got
27:51friends in college and everything like
27:52that and she's she's like, "Oh, I'm
27:54starting to feel lonely." And my
27:56question to her was like, "What are the
27:58ways that you're not being yourself?
28:00What are the ways that you're not
28:01showing up asking for what you want,
28:02saying what's wrong, having the hard
28:04conversations?
28:06Because if you aren't doing that, you're
28:08not actually with anybody. You're all
28:11you're by yourself in this reality.
28:14And so, literally, I think it was like 3
28:17days later, cuz you know, Esme is
28:19amazing. She she called me up and she
28:22was like, "I've had three hard
28:25conversations in two days. I feel so
28:27much better. I've like had these like I
28:30just looked everywhere that I wasn't
28:32saying the thing or being the person
28:34that I wanted to be and I just did it
28:36and I feel so much better and it's and
28:38it happens just like that. It's amazing
28:40how quickly loneliness can be cured if
28:43you actually show up in a way that
28:44you're proud of saying the things that
28:46are important to you.
28:47>> Yeah. And I also want to talk about
28:48another aspect of the shame and in this
28:50pattern which is often people will show
28:53up with I I really want to be seen. I
28:56should be seen. I should be doing a
28:57thing. I should go have the hard
28:59conversations. And so that exact uh set
29:01of behaviors you just described could be
29:04somebody something that somebody tries
29:05to force themselves into or beat
29:07themselves up into as a part of this
29:09pattern. What would you say to to that
29:11to somebody who's like
29:12>> I should really show up more. I should
29:14really be seen. I should really be
29:16vulnerable.
29:17>> What I would say is I would point back
29:19to the beginning which is what do you
29:22need to take care of yourself? What what
29:24do you need to open to your heart to
29:26yourself and to other people? Because
29:28that framing prevents it from being I
29:30should do this, I should do that. I
29:31should do this other thing
29:33>> because there's a like a self-care,
29:35there's a love, there's an expansion in
29:38that feeling. There's an opening up to
29:40yourself and to the other person.
29:42>> Yeah.
29:42>> And so that can't coexist with you
29:45should do this. What's wrong with you?
29:46D.
29:47>> Yeah. Your question is a great pointer
29:49because it is emotionally going from
29:56what what what to oh I can actually just
30:00love this moment you myself and that's
30:04really what's changing on the emotional
30:06level is you're going from a contraction
30:08to an openness whether it's through
30:10wonder or whether it's through love or
30:13whether it's through admitting and
30:14owning your needs or what would I be
30:16proud out of there. All these things are
30:18emotionally opening you up to the
30:21experience of what's going on.
30:23>> And when you are closed down and
30:25contracted emotionally, you're not
30:27actually experiencing reality.
30:29>> Yeah.
30:29>> You're experiencing your thought of what
30:31reality is.
30:32>> But what about also the need for safety?
30:35If if my if I see myself as bad or wrong
30:38for hiding, for all the hiding I've done
30:39in my life, what about acknowledging the
30:42need to feel comfort, the need to feel
30:45safe, that that pattern provided for me
30:48even while it limited me in many ways.
30:50>> Awesome. Yeah, I think that's a great
30:52thing to do.
30:53>> Yeah.
30:53>> Right. That's another version of loving
30:55yourself. That's another version of like
30:57honoring who you are.
30:58>> So addressing this pattern isn't about,
31:00oh, I've been doing it wrong all this
31:02time. I've been hiding and I should be
31:04getting out there and getting seen.
31:06>> Correct.
31:07>> Yeah.
31:07>> Yeah. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Like if you
31:09beat yourself up then you are like we
31:12talked about this earlier in the
31:13episode. If you're beating yourself up
31:16then you are now the eye of siren turned
31:20on yourself.
31:21>> Yeah.
31:21>> So any way in which you are like putting
31:25that same criticism on yourself to undo
31:29that is going to be incredibly useful
31:31for this pattern. Right? Because that
31:33self-criticism is the shame, right? And
31:36so any way that you can really look at
31:39that shame and there's lots of ways to
31:42look at the shame and and start to
31:44unwind it, one is with people that we
31:46talked about, but another way to really
31:48look at that shame and unwind the shame
31:51is to just ask yourself, would you
31:55criticize somebody else for it? And that
31:58for some people that's going to get rid
31:59of like 80% of it. Oh, so somebody else
32:02was like scared as a kid and they
32:03learned to hide. Do you think
32:04>> especially if it's somebody they care a
32:05lot about?
32:06>> Exactly. Did you are they an
32:08Are they bad?
32:10>> Do they need to be fixed?
32:13Right. And so that's another way to just
32:15really quickly say, "Oh, wait. If it
32:18wasn't me, would I treat myself this
32:19way?"
32:20>> Yeah. So, I want to leave people with
32:22one like specific concrete thing that
32:23they can do. Yeah. next time they show
32:25up to say a meeting or a tense
32:28conversation with their partner and
32:30they're freezing up, they're hiding,
32:32they recognize this patterns alive, this
32:34podcast is ringing in their head
32:36>> and that little tiny part of the lyic
32:39[snorts] system that's still active.
32:41>> Yeah.
32:41>> Is like, what do I do? What what's a
32:43thing?
32:44>> Open your heart to that person.
32:45>> Mhm.
32:46>> So, stop objectifying them. Recognize
32:50that you've already cut yourself off
32:51from them. You're judging them. You're
32:53basically saying in that moment,
32:56you're going to attack me. You're a bad
32:58person.
33:00You only care about yourself. You can't
33:03see me.
33:05And you're totally self-obsessed and
33:07focused on you.
33:11That's what you're saying about the
33:12other person. So, you've already like
33:13fully disconnected and and you're
33:15worried about what they're thinking
33:17about you, but you're basically thinking
33:18all those things about them. you're like
33:21and you [laughter] right
33:25like and that's the hard thing for
33:27people to like really just grock is like
33:29oh if I'm scared about what you're going
33:30to say about me I have judged you I have
33:33I have categorized you I've boxed you I
33:36I've made you into an enemy
33:39>> like which is everything you're scared
33:41that they're going to do to you've
33:42already done to them and look they don't
33:44seem to give a
33:45>> yeah which [laughter] I I
33:49and I think that's where like A lot of
33:50the fear when people come to a coaching
33:53session about this comes from is, oh, if
33:55I actually see how I've been treating
33:57myself and I see the way that I've been
33:59treating others, then I have to feel a
34:01ton of grief.
34:02>> That's right.
34:03>> And possibly in front of these 300
34:05people on this call.
34:06>> Right. Yep.
34:07>> But in front of myself.
34:08>> Yeah.
34:08>> Especially.
34:09>> Exactly. Because that's what shame's job
34:11is is to is to stagnate an emotional
34:16experience, right? And so when that
34:18shame relieves, there's going to be
34:21grief and other emotions that need to be
34:23felt that are are going to be scary.
34:25>> Yeah. Like you might find yourself on a
34:27podcast and be like, I'm Joe Hudson and
34:29I just realized that I've been
34:31pronouncing I have Sauron wrong this
34:33entire episode.
34:34>> I knew I was doing that. What is is it
34:36Sauron or Siren? S I've still got it
34:39wrong. Siren. I'm going to call it
34:40Siren. What?
34:41>> Yeah, Siren. Go for [laughter] it.
34:43>> Sauron. Yeah, exactly. It's horrible.
34:46Everybody's gonna judge me. [laughter]
34:48>> Everybody who judges Joe for that,
34:50please. They're already commenting. It's
34:52already been there.
34:53>> It's been happening.
34:55>> What a pleasure. Pleasure to be with
34:57you.
34:57>> Yeah, you too, Joe.

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