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The F Word Podcast | Gill Hicks on the healing power of the arts — Transcript

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0:00welcome to the f word a podcast series
0:02that examines excavates unpicks and
0:04reframes forgiveness through the lives
0:06of others
0:08i'm marina cantor casino a journalist
0:10from london founder of the forgiveness
0:12project charity and i built my career
0:14investigating how those who face the
0:16most complex and devastating things in
0:19life find a way through
0:21each episode i'll be talking to a guest
0:24who's experienced something very
0:25difficult or traumatic in their life but
0:28who rather than respond with hate or
0:29bitterness has embraced what the very
0:31least considered forgiveness as a
0:34response to pain
0:38my guest for this episode of the f word
0:40podcast is jill hicks
0:42jill is an author musician artist and
0:45mother she is currently living in
0:47adelaide australia but in 2005 jill was
0:51living and working in england when
0:54suicide bombers attacked the london
0:56transport system
0:5852 people died that day and many were
1:01severely injured including jill who lost
1:04both her legs in the explosion
1:06i first met jill just a year or so after
1:09the attacks because we happened to share
1:11a mutual friend and because i'd heard
1:13that while she didn't forgive she was
1:15keenly exploring peaceful solutions to
1:17violence to help her come to terms with
1:20and heal from the trauma of what had
1:22happened
1:33so jill it's really so lovely to speak
1:35to you again after quite a while i know
1:38you're in adelaide and it's at least two
1:40or three years since we last properly
1:41spoke and i think it's 16 years since
1:45the london bombings so brutally
1:47catapulted your life into a very
1:49different direction
1:51first i want to ask you jill how you're
1:54living your life now since being back in
1:57australia for a few years how do you
1:59spend your days
2:01well
2:02first and foremost i am
2:04a very proud mum
2:07to my beautiful daughter emily who is
2:09now
2:10eight years old i still can't believe
2:13where the time evaporates
2:16so i'm doing school runs and
2:19there's class representative and go out
2:22with all the mums and talk mum things
2:25and it's just really quite quite a very
2:28different life than what i was leading
2:30when i was in london for i think it was
2:3226 years i lived in london so a very
2:35very different life here
2:38but the one thing that i've actually
2:40really
2:41i won't say enjoyed but i felt sort of
2:44like a lifeline if you like to the
2:46tentacles out to my old life
2:49is all the work
2:50thank goodness on computers so everyone
2:53that's now discovered zoom
2:55during the pandemic i just sort of feel
2:57very opaque with it all like well that's
2:59how my life is you know i spend my time
3:01looking at people on facetime or skyping
3:05or zooming
3:06and i know you've recently won a prize
3:09for a really brilliant performance which
3:11i saw live streamed from the adelaide
3:14fringe called still alive and kicking
3:18which is written and performed by you
3:20and tells your story particularly
3:22focusing i think on the period of time
3:25you were in the pitch black bombed tube
3:28deep underground in london
3:31and it seems the resources you found in
3:33those moments in the midst of that hell
3:36somehow served you and allowed you to
3:39survive and create a new life that was
3:42such a brilliant performance i just was
3:44so moved and inspired by it and i just
3:47wondered why did you focus
3:49it was so powerful it really worked by
3:51the way but why did you focus so much
3:54on those minutes i forget how many
3:56minutes was 20 minutes now i can't
3:58remember but it was an hour yes yep
4:00perhaps you could talk through why you
4:02use that and also why that hour jill was
4:06so pivotal to what happened next thanks
4:09marina it's been something for the last
4:1116 years that i think one of my many
4:15quests if you like has been
4:18trying to understand and really tease
4:21apart
4:22why i am not filled with hatred or
4:26bitterness or seeking
4:29revenge and i say that from almost a
4:32sort of a third person view in to my
4:35life
4:36especially when being a double amputee
4:39i still have many days
4:42months that are absolutely overtaken by
4:46pain by being completely incapacitated
4:49so i have many trigger points that can
4:53catapult me back into a situation of
4:55feeling utter bitterness for my
4:58predicament if you like or the
4:59infliction
5:00and i've just been really fascinated as
5:03to
5:04why haven't i gone there why am i still
5:08filled with such
5:11awe of
5:12who we are
5:14so i've kept coming back
5:16to this hour that was literally the
5:19aftermath of the bombing
5:21and what i experienced
5:25in that hour and the subsequent hours
5:28afterwards the immediate rescue
5:31i believe really has shaped
5:34my
5:35second life if you like and for all
5:38intents and purposes i think that what i
5:41felt
5:42was a real deep sense of the power of
5:46human connection can literally move
5:49mountains but i felt wrapped and
5:52shielded by almost like an extraordinary
5:56unconditional love
5:59and
6:00it was so powerful and so strong that
6:03i've actually spent probably most of the
6:06last 16 years
6:08trying to find ways of
6:10describing it of
6:12being the messenger of that experience
6:16because for me i want to be able to
6:18shout and scream and say
6:21we are so much better
6:24than what we give ourselves credit for
6:26and that i feel that i'm walking around
6:29on this earth
6:30with this great
6:32secret of i know
6:34how our capacity to love and to heal can
6:40transform
6:42lives i've witnessed it and i've been
6:44the recipient of it
6:46i've been the recipient of it by
6:48literally someone holding my hand
6:51and that first happened in the aftermath
6:53so when it was the survivors and those
6:56who were very sadly coming to the end of
6:59their life we were together we had
7:02nothing but ourselves and this vast
7:06darkness
7:08and i didn't know what had happened i
7:10didn't know a bomb had just gone off
7:12there was no sound there was nothing it
7:14was just suddenly we were all in this
7:18surreal
7:19new world
7:21and i remember
7:23clearly as if it was just yesterday the
7:26instinct of survival was not only for
7:32oneself
7:33but it was for
7:35us as a collective
7:37that concern
7:39for the other
7:40was palpable it was tangible we were all
7:43reaching out for each other and what
7:46particularly got to me
7:48given that it was london
7:50is that as commuters on the underground
7:54we were conditioned we followed the
7:56etiquette of you don't talk to anyone
7:59you don't look at anyone you don't
8:01interact
8:02that's how you commute
8:04and so to have had that etiquette
8:07ingrained
8:09and then something horrific has happened
8:12and our reaction is to reach out
8:15and help each other and hold on to each
8:17other and in that holding
8:20it was like both a hope
8:23and a reassurance
8:26and also a serenity if i can use that
8:28word because of course there was nothing
8:31remotely serene about the horror of that
8:33scene but
8:35there was a serenity between us as
8:38people in the connection in the holding
8:41on and then all we could hear was
8:45each other's voices like a roll call
8:48something that we did to help keep us
8:51awake help keep us aware help keep us
8:55together because essentially we were
8:57waiting
8:58for we didn't know what i didn't know if
9:01anyone even knew we were down there if
9:03anyone was alerted to the fact that
9:06something had happened so we were just
9:10calling out our first names
9:12around and around and around and i
9:15remember how important it was
9:18to hear the name that was always before
9:20mine to know that that was my cue and i
9:23had to be awake and present because i
9:25was listening for my cue in order to say
9:28my name and that went on for an hour
9:31before
9:32rescue could reach us and once you were
9:34rescued you were taken to saint thomas's
9:37hospital and i know you've spoken about
9:39your time there and i think you even
9:41used the word euphoric about some of
9:44your experiences there which might be
9:46quite hard to understand yes to be
9:48alive but the reality of your injuries
9:53must have hit so deep and been such a
9:56shock i would have thought that would
9:57have wiped out any euphoria not at all
10:00isn't that crazy you know i again
10:03remember waking up not knowing what had
10:05happened
10:06i couldn't speak for a long time and i'd
10:09lost a lot of my hearing the only
10:11mechanism i had to communicate was
10:14through my eyes and
10:16again how amazing we are as a species
10:19that there was all these medical teams
10:21that knew exactly what i was trying to
10:23say through my eyes and they were
10:25responding back to me
10:27and they didn't know if i could hear or
10:29not but there was this real sense of i
10:32was understood and i was safe and
10:36i remember feeling from my arms and that
10:40sort of sense of relief that my arms
10:43were here i was okay i was still jill in
10:46my mind and i did i felt completely
10:50euphoric that i was still here and i
10:53knew that i'd lost both my legs and
10:57somehow i just felt that being me
11:00and still being
11:02here
11:03and alive was everything and
11:06that euphoria stayed pretty high for a
11:09long time it was actually seven years
11:12until i
11:13first discovered my bout of ptsd so it
11:17was completely unexpected
11:19and that was triggered through i'd lost
11:21my eyesight through a detached optic
11:25nerve and that was enough that was the
11:28trigger point for me to just say okay
11:30bad things can still happen i'm not
11:32immune
11:33and i went into a very shocked state of
11:36ptsd and
11:38quite heightened anxiety after that i'd
11:41love you to say if you felt that was
11:43really important actually to go through
11:45that ptsd period after the seven years
11:48but before that i mean i just remember
11:49the first time we spoke you mentioned
11:52that on that day on that morning when
11:54you took the tube
11:55you had just thrown on a scarf you never
11:58normally wear scarves but for some
11:59reason you decided to wear scarf that
12:01day
12:02and that scarf because you used it as a
12:04tourniquet had probably saved your life
12:07because it had prevented the blood
12:09flowing and i just remember you seeing
12:11that as great good fortune whereas a lot
12:14of people and i sure would have been me
12:15would have thought
12:17what misfortune to have got on that
12:19carriage why did i leave the house at
12:22that time i just wondered if it's part
12:23of your personality that you went
12:25straight to the thing that was going to
12:27boil you up and give you hope and make
12:29you see it as you were meant to live and
12:32that was a sign somehow
12:34it's so difficult to answer this because
12:37i'm still very much
12:40in the mind of trying to explore exactly
12:44the question you've asked of the why and
12:47i'm still there in believing that it was
12:50through my experience of feeling
12:53this wrapping
12:55of absolute love
12:58and intention
13:00i can't get past this very
13:03real
13:04situation where literally i was given an
13:07id bracelet when i was taken to hospital
13:10that just said one unknown estimated
13:14female
13:15that was a real moment for me looking at
13:18this arm bracelet
13:20and
13:21realizing that
13:23of course they didn't know who i was i
13:25couldn't speak i couldn't say my name i
13:28was an unknown person
13:30and my skin was completely burned i
13:34looked at those words on that id
13:36bracelet and thought
13:38what state must my body have been in
13:42and all of that i think has really
13:45culminated in me feeling even more
13:48deeply around the exception
13:52and the exceptional love that i was
13:54shown and given and experienced during
13:58my rescue and during those early days in
14:00hospital that really have been the
14:03turning point because i am then able to
14:06look at everything through a different
14:07lens
14:08of how fortunate
14:11am i
14:12like you said that i happened to wear a
14:13scarf that day that i happen
14:16to
14:17have this
14:18presence of mind to even be able to
14:21tourniquet up the tops of my legs i mean
14:24i've never done a first aid course
14:26anyone that knew me marina would
14:29absolutely
14:30say no no no no no jill would not be
14:33able to cope being in a situation like
14:36that and
14:37i surprised myself i surprised myself
14:40with how calm i was i think we all did
14:44as i said i'm coming back to that
14:46description of a serenity
14:48it wasn't the chaos that perhaps someone
14:51may think we were very collected very
14:54gathered and very focused on what we all
14:57had to do and that was to survive and as
15:00you said life one and life two it seems
15:02you embraced this new identity with
15:06great vigor and enthusiasm even
15:08well i felt it i felt the privilege i
15:12felt the honor i remember being there in
15:14hospital and thinking okay
15:16what is my purpose
15:18what am i doing because i've got this
15:21new
15:22chance
15:23to have a life that i could never have
15:25imagined
15:26now being disabled losing both legs i
15:29could never have anticipated such a
15:32change of path
15:34but i still felt what an honor it is to
15:37be alive
15:38and to feel
15:40i can feel
15:42everything i can feel the pain of my
15:44injuries that's a signal that i'm alive
15:47i can feel the joy of being here
15:50of still having my mind
15:53i had some horrific head injuries and
15:56once the extent of my injuries started
15:59to unfold i just felt you've said it
16:01before even more euphoria of how amazing
16:05it is that i'm actually here
16:07every day truly became not only just a
16:10bonus but an opportunity of creation of
16:13how did i want to design
16:16this second life
16:18but that was more than about your own
16:19survival wasn't it you were clearly also
16:23incredibly
16:24inspired and lifted
16:27by
16:27basically the kindness of strangers in
16:30the aftermath of the bomb
16:32how was that for you
16:34for me
16:35i was one unknown estimated female i
16:39can't get over the fact that these
16:42humble human beings that are the
16:44paramedics that are british transport
16:46police that are the met police the tube
16:49workers that they would choose to put
16:53the life and lives of one unknowns
16:57above their own safety and rush towards
17:01a scene where they had no idea whether
17:05there'd be a secondary device whether
17:07the tunnel walls would collapse all that
17:10was important was preserving and saving
17:12human life and
17:14for me that has been the greatest
17:17insight
17:18into
17:19who i know we are it's just how do we
17:22live like that every day
17:24so fast forward to you know seven years
17:27after the bombing
17:29you said the
17:30ptsd kicked in at that point do you
17:33think that was an important
17:35experience to have had it been sort of
17:37buried and was it waiting to come out
17:39did you need to go into the rage and the
17:41anger and the despair and the depression
17:44so when i was in hospital i had three
17:47visits by the psych team
17:50and i remember on the third visit
17:52thinking okay they're really digging to
17:54try and find out why i'm so happy you
17:57know and i remember offering chocolates
17:59and i was sort of sitting there on my
18:00bed you know with bandages still around
18:03my stumps and saying oh would you like a
18:05chocolate and thinking what are they
18:07looking for why are they so bothered by
18:10me being happy and i was trying to
18:12explain look i'm genuinely
18:14happy that i'm alive and i'm okay so
18:17whether i had to go through something to
18:21really feel the depths of it i don't
18:23know
18:24i'd rather not have experienced ptsd i
18:27still carry it to this day the anxiety
18:30sometimes is overwhelming and completely
18:33debilitating
18:35and they're things that i find are the
18:38only parts of my life i start to feel
18:41resentful of so i feel resentful
18:44of any
18:46days where they've been lost to me
18:50having an overload of anxiety and not
18:52being able to
18:54do the things that i want to do
18:56i'd like to just talk about the 19 year
18:58old suicide bomber from the north of
19:00england and i just wondered how much
19:02time you've given to thinking about him
19:05i suspect it's very difficult when the
19:07perpetrator kills himself because it
19:10means justice whatever justice means in
19:12these circumstances can never be served
19:15and there's no one to hear from no one
19:17to explain why they happen no living
19:19person on whom to venture anger
19:22so i just wondered about your thoughts
19:24about this young man
19:26we've had many conversations over the
19:29years around forgiveness and how i've
19:32struggled with the idea of
19:35what it is to forgive because i see him
19:38now perhaps more as a
19:40representation
19:42of something that challenges us as a
19:45society
19:46rather than him as a person
19:49so therefore i've managed to navigate my
19:52feelings towards him the person
19:55and park any ideas of whether i forgive
19:58whether i don't forgive what's my
20:00relationship like with this he's become
20:03this representation in my mind of
20:06someone that's been so susceptible to
20:08follow
20:09an idea so strongly that it's formed a
20:12set of ideas that's created
20:15an ideology that he was willing to die
20:18for
20:19and not only willing to die for
20:21but willing to kill others for
20:25what a challenge for us all in society
20:29to even attempt to unravel that
20:32to begin to understand why would
20:35somebody do this you know why would they
20:38feel so deeply about a supposed cause
20:43i've got to be so careful because the
20:45one thing that i have taken myself
20:49of a lesson
20:50that perhaps i believe he could have
20:52taught me
20:54is to never presume anything about
20:57anyone you don't know
21:00and if ever i think about him i think
21:02about his presumption
21:05and
21:06how he was the only person in that
21:08carriage that morning that knew what was
21:11about to happen
21:13and at any given time when he caught any
21:17of our faces or even looked into any of
21:20our eyes
21:22he could have had that moment of empathy
21:25he could have had that moment of choice
21:28to say what am i doing these people
21:30don't deserve to die
21:33i haven't asked them whether they're on
21:35my side or whether they're my enemy i've
21:37presumed
21:39i've always been so cautious since i've
21:41given him any
21:43deeper thought of his motivations and
21:46his actions
21:47and the one thing i've taken is to never
21:50presume anything about anyone you don't
21:53know so i tried desperately to never do
21:55that
21:56while forgiveness may not be on the
21:58table jill what about not hating or
22:02feeling compassion or even empathy for
22:05someone who might have been drawn into
22:07violent extremism through
22:09having had their mind brainwashed
22:12or just believing things that would seem
22:16quite crazy and dangerous
22:18i've spent probably
22:2012
22:21solid years working in the field of
22:25challenging destructive narratives and
22:28really trying to get under the skin of
22:30it all
22:31and for me i would say
22:34whilst i've parked the idea of
22:36forgiveness
22:38it's not even a sense of compassion or
22:40empathy for me it's the willingness to
22:44understand
22:45and i think that's where i would plant
22:47my flag that i would say i'm willing
22:51to sit at the table to understand i
22:54think that's probably as far as i could
22:56go with it because to me there's no
22:59anger there's no hatred there's no
23:01bitterness and i think they're already a
23:03great leap toward not just healing but
23:07finding a way to eradicate destructive
23:11ideas turning into actions i do believe
23:14that ideas are powerful but i think we
23:16need to have better ideas to challenge
23:19ideas i think we need to be far more
23:22challenging with each other as
23:24communities as society as humanity
23:27rather than again coming back to this
23:30presumption
23:31of a black and white situation of i'm
23:34right you're wrong so for me i'm always
23:37willing
23:38to
23:39offer a position of let me understand
23:43and equally whilst i'm listening to you
23:46i also ask that you listen to me yeah
23:50and i think understanding is absolutely
23:52critical and it's really having a
23:54curious mind isn't it
23:56there's no doubt that people who commit
23:58heinous acts also are capable of doing
24:02great things of loving of being loved
24:04well one of the great motivators of
24:07extremism
24:09is of course lying or this threat of
24:12righteousness
24:13and so it's not actually
24:16seen or felt as a criminal action
24:19it's actually where in the right
24:22by believing this and by following and
24:25wanting to do these actions rather than
24:28we're criminals
24:30i think when we look at 16 years on
24:32to think that there's still this type of
24:34crime then the pendulum that swings
24:37that's then the rise of the alt-right
24:40and
24:41this
24:42cancer of hatred and indifference
24:47and
24:48otherness
24:50really is to the detriment of us
24:52evolving and growing i think as human
24:55beings i know for several years after
24:57the bombing you spoke publicly about the
25:00importance of countering violent
25:02extremism and about peace building yeah
25:05understanding building bridges between
25:07people of difference
25:09and you do less of that now so i'm just
25:10wondering why did that take its toll on
25:13you was there an impact of talking too
25:16publicly about it
25:18it did several things i felt that the
25:21messages of peace
25:23are often met with
25:26people feeling uncomfortable it's like
25:28when you mention the word love
25:30and and i watch people sort of think oh
25:32she's not talking about love again is
25:34she gonna feel so uncomfortable about
25:36that and it's the same with peace you
25:38know i mentioned the word peace and i'd
25:40watch people immediately turn off
25:42and i just thought that these are the
25:44people that you really want to impact
25:46because those who already have a natural
25:49desire for a world that comes together i
25:53don't need to talk to them so much
25:55because they're there and they're
25:56working towards this they practice that
25:59but it's the people that turned off the
26:01of course you want to reach
26:03and did a ted talk that was then picked
26:05up by the american platform of ted
26:08and they ended up having to turn off the
26:11comment section because it was just vile
26:15absolutely vile comments and
26:18you know it does hurt and it did leave
26:20me an inner sense of despair of well
26:23what is it i have to do
26:25to get this message out because it's
26:27definitely a message
26:28that is timeless it's definitely one
26:31that needs to be heard if not today more
26:34than ever
26:35so for me i went deeply inside back into
26:38my shell
26:40because i used to perhaps naively think
26:42that someone who had suffered some great
26:45trauma and tragedy however they chose to
26:48talk about it however they chose to heal
26:50the public would respect it and be
26:52interested in it and perhaps even
26:54inspired by it and it it seems it almost
26:57encourages people to be even more
27:00venomous when it's someone like yourself
27:02the injured traumatized victim
27:05talking about it
27:06do you know why that is exactly i mean
27:08i'm incredulous really
27:10what comforts me is the majority of
27:14people of course are absolutely
27:17writing to me saying jill thank you your
27:19words have changed my life or your
27:21actions have changed my life thank you
27:23so much and if i didn't have that type
27:26of encouragement and acknowledgement i
27:28think it would be very difficult to keep
27:30going but i have been puzzled by the
27:33negativity i remember one comment stuck
27:35out to me someone said oh
27:37virtue's signaling much and i had to go
27:41away and and google what does virtue
27:44signaling actually mean you know and
27:46when i saw the meaning and i thought oh
27:48that's terrible as if i'm preaching from
27:51the parapet of this is how you need to
27:54live and everyone needs to be these
27:56great humans and i thought that's not
27:58what i do at all i'm actually very
28:00conscious
28:01to not do that to not say to people you
28:04must be great and you must love each
28:07other not at all i think my message very
28:10clearly for me has continuously been
28:14everything we need
28:16we already have
28:18and however you want to interpret that
28:20is up to you maybe that's hard for
28:22people to imagine if they had had such
28:25horrific injuries they'd want to lash
28:27out and why haven't i lashed out
28:30maybe it's that
28:31anger and hate is on the rise so when
28:34you have a message that cuts through
28:36that perhaps it's very difficult for
28:39people to hear it and to believe it
28:42but as i said if it wasn't for the
28:44encouragement of the majority
28:46i think i'd find it very very difficult
28:49to continue and you were saying before
28:52that because of all the negativity and
28:54because of the difficulty of this peace
28:56word that you went back into your shell
28:59to think about how to get the message
29:01out
29:02so i'm just wondering what did you come
29:04up with and how are you living your life
29:06now
29:08wonderfully now living in such a
29:10picturesque nature spot in adelaide in
29:13south australia
29:14and my go-to is the ocean and i just
29:19love to sit and stare at the ocean and
29:23somehow i get the answers to the
29:25questions i'm asking by just staring at
29:28this body of water and for me the answer
29:31came back of
29:33explore how you're talking explore how
29:36you're communicating maybe you need to
29:39change the frequency
29:41meaning the dial the tone the medium
29:44so i went back to painting and my
29:47painting which is something i did in
29:50life number one
29:51my painting was completely different
29:54suddenly
29:55everything the whole emphasis of every
29:57piece
29:58was about communicating the importance
30:02of us as a species together as a one
30:06humanity and to see each other not as
30:08the other but as a collective
30:11i noticed with certainly some of your
30:14early paintings and the scarves that
30:16there was a bit of a black and white
30:18theme going on yes and i wondered if
30:21that was intentional absolutely
30:23intentional that was literally taken
30:26from me thinking about the bombers very
30:29black and white mindset and how really a
30:32lot of us
30:33do live in that way of us and them and i
30:37was just so eager to try and find a way
30:40of
30:40where is the gray where is that in
30:43between where is that moment
30:45i just couldn't do enough of this
30:47painting and i thought i know i need to
30:49make scarves
30:51again coming back to this life-saving
30:54scarf that i had on the morning of the
30:57bombing
30:58for me it was just a natural progression
31:01of i need the art to be on a scarf
31:04because i need people to wear these
31:06things to start conversation and that
31:09way they can talk to the other by having
31:13art as almost the enabler to start the
31:16conversation
31:18and that just progressed and then i
31:20wonderfully
31:22found music again again reaching back to
31:25the tentacles of life one when i was a
31:28musician an artist and i thought i need
31:31to go back
31:32to move forward in how i communicate
31:35hence i've sort of parked the
31:38not-for-profit that i had which was mad
31:40for peace
31:41i still loved the acronym of mad and i
31:45thought what is mad for me now
31:48and it was so clear it's music it's art
31:52and it's discussion
31:53is there a sort of restorative healing
31:56element going into your imagination and
31:58being in the present oh
32:01i can't even begin to explain it it was
32:04like coming
32:05home
32:07in the most
32:08exceptional way just that first moment
32:11of being back with a canvas i'm lost in
32:15it and it was just this moment that i
32:17can step away from feeling pain from
32:20feeling that i'm having to balance on
32:22these prosthetic legs there was none of
32:24it it was just me
32:26paintbrush and the canvas and it was
32:28just
32:29flowing and it was the same with coming
32:32back to music everything that i've seen
32:34you produce whether it's your art your
32:36music your book your public speaking
32:40it has a tremendous effect and people
32:42come away i think often having had their
32:45fixed thinking changed and had that
32:48minds opened
32:50so jill i think we've covered a lot of
32:52ground
32:54thank you so much for talking to me
32:55today on the f-word podcast it's just
32:58been such a joy to hear your voice all
33:00the way over there in adelaide oh thank
33:02you thank you marina and wonderful to
33:05talk to you as always
33:09thank you for listening to the f-word
33:10podcast to dig a bit deeper around some
33:13of the themes we've talked about do
33:15check out the show notes by going to the
33:17forgivenessproject.com
33:20f-word podcast
33:21and from there you can also explore the
33:23forgiveness project website which over
33:26the years has collected and shared many
33:28more stories of how people have
33:30transformed the darkest of situations i
33:33also want to invite you to join the
33:35f-word podcast facebook group especially
33:38if you have more to discuss or share
33:40again to find the link go to
33:42theforgivenessproject.com
33:45f wordpodcast but most of all i hope
33:49you'll join me again
34:12you

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