The Ever-Changing App Store | AppStories | Episode 462 — Transcript

Full transcript

1. 0:00Hello and welcome to another episode of
2. 0:02AppStories.
3. 0:03I'm John Voorhees, and I've got Federicoico
4. 0:05Petitio with me.
5. 0:06Hey, Fed Hello.
6. 0:06Hello, hi.
7. 0:07Hi, hi.
8. 0:08I'm doing really well today. about
9. 0:10yourself?
10. 0:10I'm doing I'm doing well.
11. 0:12Friday, which I like, or this week we
12. 0:14couldn't record AppStories on Monday
13. 0:16since I had my condo meeting.
14. 0:19That's always fun.
15. 0:20Nothing like the condo meeting
16. 0:22interrupting your day job.
17. 0:24But I have a topic for you today
18. 0:27Fedorico.
19. 0:27This is one that I came up with.
20. 0:28I want to talk a little bit about the
21. 0:32changing landscape of the world of apps.
22. 0:36The topic of this very podcast, the word
23. 0:39of app.
24. 0:40Exactly.
25. 0:40Because I've been thinking about it a lot
26. 0:42lately.
27. 0:42I mean, recently, Apple announced that it
28. 0:46was making some changes to the way mini
29. 0:49apps work, and mini apps are like usually
30. 0:52web-based technologies embedded inside of
31. 0:55a native app.
32. 0:56Think, you know, things, uh, the line is
33. 1:01like this, and then there's a bunch of
34. 1:02other WeChat.
35. 1:03WeChat.
36. 1:04Yeah, yeah.
37. 1:04Yeah, yeah.
38. 1:05And but even you can look at some of the
39. 1:07things like even like ChatGPT with that
40. 1:10OP, the AIs has an iOS app.
41. 1:12And they are like little mini apps
42. 1:14embedded inside of ChatGPT on the
43. 1:16iPhone.
44. 1:17Yeah, and by the way, that should that
45. 1:19should be happening in the December
46. 1:20right?
47. 1:21OpenAI said that they were going to have
48. 1:23a proper launch for apps inside ChatGPT
49. 1:26before the end of the year.
50. 1:28I think that that's right.
51. 1:30And that was a while ago.
52. 1:31Yeah.
53. 1:31Maybe October or something. end of late
54. 1:34October, maybe?
55. 1:35in a while.
56. 1:36Yeah.
57. 1:37Yeah.
58. 1:38So you know, that's not really the topic
59. 1:39that I want to talk about.
60. 1:41Mini apps are, I don't find them super
61. 1:43interesting.
62. 1:44It's just like really a change in the
63. 1:45business practices of how, how
64. 1:50compensation works on the App Store.
65. 1:52It's a, it's one aspect I want to talk
66. 1:54about.
67. 1:55But what I want to talk about is that you
68. 1:58and I've seen a lot of change since the
69. 2:00early days of the App Store, right?
70. 2:02We've seen subscriptions come, which some
71. 2:05people seem to still think might go away
72. 2:07someday, or should be removed, and
73. 2:10they're not. spoiling. or not.
74. 2:12But we've seen that.
75. 2:14We've seen a bunch of other things
76. 2:16happen.
77. 2:16And we've also seen a lot of attempts
78. 2:20over the years to break down the App
79. 2:24Store silo.
80. 2:25I mean, one of the things that I think
81. 2:27looking at it in hindsight, that Apple
82. 2:30accomplished when the App Store launched
83. 2:32was that it sucked an awful lot of the
84. 2:34oxygen out of online commerce. that a lot
85. 2:38of the economics of the web moved to the
86. 2:42iPhone.
87. 2:43And to a lesser extent, you know, like
88. 2:45the play store and Android, that, you
89. 2:47know, Google was successful to a degree
90. 2:48there too.
91. 2:49And there have been a lot of things since
92. 2:53then, especially in recent years where
93. 2:55people have hyped a new technology or a
94. 2:58new approach as a way to kind of break
95. 3:00that hold on online commerce.
96. 3:03There was, you know, crypto.
97. 3:05Crypto is still around.
98. 3:06Crypto didn't really change the App Store
99. 3:08in any meaningful way, though.
100. 3:09Then there was the metaverse.
101. 3:12And the metaverse was going to be the new
102. 3:13place we lived instead of using our
103. 3:15phone.
104. 3:15Nothing happened.
105. 3:16Nothing happened there either.
106. 3:18But now we're in the midst of an AI
107. 3:21boom.
108. 3:21And I think that we are truly at what I
109. 3:25think is an inflection point in
110. 3:28technology that's not just about the App
111. 3:31Store.
112. 3:31It's much broader than that.
113. 3:33But I do think there's a very important
114. 3:35aspect of this in terms of what its
115. 3:38impact is going to be on the App Store in
116. 3:41particular.
117. 3:42And so I thought we would talk a little
118. 3:44bit about all of those things and kind of
119. 3:48where we are today compared to where we
120. 3:50were a while back with things like
121. 3:52subscriptions and AI and everything
122. 3:57else.
123. 3:57I mean, there's just been an incredible
124. 3:58amount of change, and I think, like, what
125. 4:01we, the way it has even changed the way
126. 4:04we cover apps and Mac stories, because
127. 4:06it's just not the same as it used to be.
128. 4:08And so it's different for us, but it's
129. 4:11also different for developers as well as
130. 4:14consumers as well.
131. 4:15Yeah.
132. 4:16I think so this is an excellent topic, 1st
133. 4:19of all, I think at a high level, the 2
134. 4:23things I would say that have changed. you
135. 4:26know, I started doing this in 2009, I
136. 4:28actually mentioned this on Connected a
137. 4:31few days ago.
138. 4:32This AI boom and the fact that this
139. 4:35landscape is moving so quickly. especially
140. 4:39if you live at the bleeding edge of AI
141. 4:42it's making me feel sort of how I felt
142. 4:43when the App Store was booming in 2008
143. 4:462009, which was the whole reason why I
144. 4:49started Mac stories because there was so
145. 4:51much to write about and I felt that I
146. 4:54needed to have an outlet.
147. 4:55But in terms of apps, the 2 things I
148. 4:58would say, the high level, that are
149. 5:00different.
150. 5:00We have moved away from the old model of
151. 5:03this monolithic app updates, like these
152. 5:08major app updates, like tweetbot two
153. 5:11tweetbot 2.5, tweetbot three, reader one
154. 5:15reader two.
155. 5:16Like that used to be the Mac stories
156. 5:18strategy years ago, like this major app
157. 5:22updates, and the big reason why that's
158. 5:24changed is that subscriptions have
159. 5:27changed the formula for developers.
160. 5:29Now you're no longer incentivized to have
161. 5:31these big app updates every once in a
162. 5:33while and then charge again for the next
163. 5:35version of an app.
164. 5:36Instead, now, app updates happen
165. 5:38throughout the year, every month, every
166. 5:40week, you know, because you're charging
167. 5:43people a subscription, therefore that
168. 5:44changes your relationship to your
169. 5:46customers.
170. 5:46And as a result, it changes how we cover
171. 5:49apps.
172. 5:49Um, so that's one.
173. 5:51And the 2nd is, since 2009, the overall
174. 5:56developer sentiment toward Apple has
175. 5:58changed.
176. 5:58Apple is no longer the underdog.
177. 6:01And what's the expression, John, from a
178. 6:03movie, you either die a hero or live long
179. 6:06enough to become the villain?
180. 6:08Is that something like that from Batman?
181. 6:13I want, I don't know.
182. 6:14Spider-Man?
183. 6:16I don't know.
184. 6:16I honestly don't know, please don't be
185. 6:18upset.
186. 6:18But that's the idea, right?
187. 6:20In 2009, you know, unfortunately toward
188. 6:23the end of Steve Jobs life, the iPhone
189. 6:25was brand new.
190. 6:26The App Store was brand new.
191. 6:28Everybody wanted to make apps.
192. 6:30And sure, there was also the economic
193. 6:33factor.
194. 6:33People were making money. on the actual.
195. 6:36A lot of money early on.
196. 6:37A lot of money.
197. 6:38A lot of money.
198. 6:39But the indie scene, which is why I think
199. 6:42Mac stories is mostly well known for
200. 6:44covering over the years.
201. 6:45They wanted to make apps because it was
202. 6:49Apple's chance to redeem itself and also
203. 6:52to prove that they were paving this new
204. 6:54future, you know, free from Microsoft
205. 6:57free from Google.
206. 6:58They were designing the future.
207. 7:00And so indie developers wanted to make
208. 7:02apps for the App Store.
209. 7:03But over the years, for all the reasons
210. 7:05that we've covered in the past 16 years
211. 7:08of Mac stories.
212. 7:09That's changed.
213. 7:10And now I don't want to see the
214. 7:12developers today resent Apple.
215. 7:14Some of them do.
216. 7:14I think some of them do.
217. 7:16It's a spectrum for sure.
218. 7:17But it's and that spectrum did not exist
219. 7:20before.
220. 7:20Now, for many financial reasons, political
221. 7:26reasons, cultural reasons.
222. 7:28The sentiment has changed.
223. 7:30And so many developers, many many
224. 7:33existing developers from the old guard of
225. 7:36Mac developers and then iPhone developers
226. 7:39they've maybe lost their enthusiasm.
227. 7:41New developers.
228. 7:43I still, there are new apps coming out
229. 7:47right?
230. 7:47Yeah, there are.
231. 7:48I think this is something I want I'm just
232. 7:50going to interrupt us for a 2nd because I
233. 7:52do think that maybe the indie scene is
234. 7:54smaller than it used to be, but it's not
235. 7:58I don't think, but I do think it is
236. 8:00replenishing itself.
237. 8:02I think it's smaller and younger.
238. 8:04Yes.
239. 8:04Yes.
240. 8:05Yes.
241. 8:06I think it's smaller than before, but
242. 8:08it's replenishing itself is a great way
243. 8:11to put it, because we do see these young
244. 8:14developers. students, maybe some of them
245. 8:16still in high school, that are learning
246. 8:18to code maybe thanks to AI and and
247. 8:21shortly Swift UI was was something that
248. 8:24really helped.
249. 8:25Like we see these new utilities come out
250. 8:27on a weekly basis.
251. 8:28Some of them done last.
252. 8:30Some of them just come out, they have a
253. 8:32version one and then kind of abandoned.
254. 8:34Well, it's this, this, they're, they're
255. 8:37what I call portfolio apps where like
256. 8:40like a young student is trying to make
257. 8:42their, have something that they can show
258. 8:44off to get a job or to get into school or
259. 8:47whatever it happens to be.
260. 8:48There are there are a lot of apps that
261. 8:51were only released to get a job and that
262. 8:54young student gets a job at Apple, Google
263. 8:57Anthropic Open.
264. 8:59Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with that
265. 9:00but it's just the way it is.
266. 9:02But they don't have a long shelf life.
267. 9:04I guess is what I'm trying to see.
268. 9:05And so I think I think at a big level
269. 9:09like that idea of subscriptions have
270. 9:11changed how new apps and app updates are
271. 9:15released, and therefore how we cover them
272. 9:17on Mac stories, but also these sentiment
273. 9:19toward Apple is different now.
274. 9:21They're no longer the underdog, they're
275. 9:22the world's biggest corporation.
276. 9:25The politics of Apple and Tim Cook and
277. 9:28the US government surely are not helping
278. 9:30a portion of the developer community that
279. 9:34disagree with Tim Cook's relationship
280. 9:37with the US administration.
281. 9:40From my perspective, Apple's relationship
282. 9:43with the European Union also didn't
283. 9:46help.
284. 9:46So there's also that factor to consider
285. 9:49it's happening.
286. 9:50It's happening everywhere. really is
287. 9:51happening.
288. 9:51Is this happening in Korea and Japan, from
289. 9:54other countries?
290. 9:55In the UK, although in the UK, Apple was
291. 9:58right when it comes to encryption and the
292. 9:59back doors, from my perspective.
293. 10:01But yes, it's gotten more complicated.
294. 10:04So those 2 factors have definitely
295. 10:07changed how we cover apps because the
296. 10:10apps that we cover are different and
297. 10:12maybe we should talk about that.
298. 10:13Like are the actual apps different
299. 10:14from...
300. 10:16Right before we get to that, though.
301. 10:17I do want to touch on subscriptions in a
302. 10:20little more depth because one of the
303. 10:22things I wrote recently for the club was
304. 10:24asking the question whether subscriptions
305. 10:27have spoiled the fun of trying apps.
306. 10:30And what I was thinking about was the
307. 10:34early days of the App Store where for a
308. 10:36dollar or two, you know, at a time.
309. 10:38You could test, you could try out dozens
310. 10:41of apps.
311. 10:42And it wasn't going to, it wasn't going
312. 10:43to break the thing, right?
313. 10:45Right.
314. 10:46Good times, good times.
315. 10:47But now it's like, all right, I really
316. 10:49want to try this, but it's going to be $5
317. 10:5210.
318. 10:54Right, a month.
319. 10:55And one of the things that I find, and
320. 10:58part of this story wasn't so much about
321. 11:00just how it's changed, but ways that
322. 11:03developers should think about
323. 11:04subscriptions and ways to get people, make
324. 11:07it easier for people to try apps, because
325. 11:09what I find myself doing, is if it's an
326. 11:12apple I want to try, but it's maybe 5 or
327. 11:1410 a month.
328. 11:15I'm kind of busy and I, if I just sign up
329. 11:18right now, I may not have enough time to
330. 11:21try it before the whatever free trial
331. 11:24expires.
332. 11:24And I find that that I don't like that
333. 11:26pressure.
334. 11:27Because what I'll end up doing is like
335. 11:29all right, now I'll wait until I know
336. 11:30I've got a little extra free time and
337. 11:33then I'll sign up.
338. 11:33But you know what happens?
339. 11:34I forget about the app and I never try
340. 11:36it.
341. 11:36And that, I think, is unfortunate and why
342. 11:41I think, with subscriptions, I'd like to
343. 11:43see more experimentation with things like
344. 11:46consumables within the, within the app
345. 11:50like, you know, it's, you have so many
346. 11:52searches or you have, you can set up
347. 11:55maybe it's something you're tracking, it's
348. 11:57a media tracker.
349. 11:58You can track like 10 movies, but no more
350. 12:01than that.
351. 12:02You know, that kind of stuff where it's
352. 12:04like, you can get a feel for the full
353. 12:06functionality of an app on your own
354. 12:08schedule without being cut off at some
355. 12:11point.
356. 12:11Yeah, that is true.
357. 12:14Subscriptions really are the default at
358. 12:19this point.
359. 12:19I don't remember.
360. 12:21I don't really remember the last time I
361. 12:22purchased a paid upfront app, especially
362. 12:25on iOS and iPadOS.
363. 12:27I still do purchase apps on the Mac, like
364. 12:29the old-fashioned way because the Mac is
365. 12:31more old-fashioned like that sometimes.
366. 12:33Do you do the one-time payments if
367. 12:35they're available for apps?
368. 12:37Depends how expensive it is.
369. 12:39Like recently, I wanted to do a lifetime
370. 12:42purchase for an app and it was like $200
371. 12:43and I was like, geez, I don't know.
372. 12:45Like, I get it, but...
373. 12:49No, I know.
374. 12:50We turn over our apps so often that $200
375. 12:52is a lot to ask.
376. 12:53Exactly.
377. 12:53Exactly.
378. 12:54There's also, like, I feel like, no
379. 12:59before I get to AI, I want to mention
380. 13:01something else.
381. 13:01I think a major turning turning point
382. 13:04over the past 16 years was iOS 7 and what
383. 13:09came after iOS 7, it used to be possible
384. 13:13back in the day to release an app that
385. 13:15stood out, if only because of its visuals
386. 13:18right?
387. 13:19Because it was visually and graphically
388. 13:24unique, right?
389. 13:26You could make a little visual artifact
390. 13:28and you could sell it as an app on the
391. 13:30App Store. with flat design and move away
392. 13:34from skeomorphism.
393. 13:36It has made everything a little more
394. 13:39heterogeneous in that sense.
395. 13:42Like everything is pretty much, everything
396. 13:44kind of looks the same.
397. 13:45I mean, let's be honest, everything kind
398. 13:46of looks the same.
399. 13:47Swift UI sort of compounded that.
400. 13:51Which is a good and a bad thing, I
401. 13:52think.
402. 13:53Because you've talked about, you've wrote
403. 13:54about this.
404. 13:55We've talked about this.
405. 13:55Like, the tip, you can tell when it's a
406. 13:58typical Swift UI.
407. 13:59Oh, sure.
408. 13:59It's got the look.
409. 14:00It's got the look.
410. 14:01Yeah, the thing is, I mean, one on the on
411. 14:05the plus side with that, I think that
412. 14:07that democratized development in a big
413. 14:10way.
414. 14:10You didn't have to have design shops to
415. 14:13make a good, a good app, a good
416. 14:15functional app.
417. 14:16I mean, in large measure, that's why I
418. 14:18built an app.
419. 14:19I didn't have, I have got no artistic
420. 14:21skill at all.
421. 14:22But using stock UI components, I was able
422. 14:26to build an app.
423. 14:27And I think that's true for a lot of
424. 14:29these portfolio apps, a lot of the
425. 14:31utilities we see, and that's gotten even
426. 14:33better with Swift UI.
427. 14:34Yeah, yeah.
428. 14:36Um, and so there's there's the the Zion
429. 14:39aspect, and I think the next elephant in
430. 14:41the room that we need to address is AI.
431. 14:43Um, from so many different perspectives.
432. 14:46I feel like the obvious one is that all
433. 14:47the VC money is going into AI apps right
434. 14:50now.
435. 14:50Um, I, I mean, in the latest issue of Max
436. 14:55Force Weekly, I wrote about it, another
437. 14:57dictation app for iOS and my quest, I
438. 15:00cannot even tell you how many dictation
439. 15:02apps based on AI we've seen this year.
440. 15:04There are, you know, some of them.
441. 15:07At least a dozen of them at least.
442. 15:08Maybe a dozen, there's always, and it
443. 15:10feels like there's always like a
444. 15:11dictation app that pops up every month.
445. 15:13Um, and that's that happens because all
446. 15:17the VC money is going is going there.
447. 15:19All the all the investment funds are
448. 15:23funding apps that have some kind of AI
449. 15:26integration.
450. 15:27Um, and the reality is that, uh, the
451. 15:30developers are doing that, uh, because
452. 15:33the, when, when you zoom out and you take
453. 15:36a look at chatbots and you take a look at
454. 15:37the big ones, you take a look at ChatGPT
455. 15:40and Google Gemini and and Claude, and to
456. 15:43an extent, Grock by, by XAI, you know
457. 15:46these chatbots that have 1000000s of
458. 15:47users.
459. 15:48People are using them.
460. 15:50And so the assumption goes, if people are
461. 15:51using them and they're getting used to
462. 15:54this different way of working and in this
463. 15:56different way of interacting with the
464. 15:58computer, it only makes sense to sort of
465. 16:01have some of that functionality carry
466. 16:03over, bleed into the apps that you use on
467. 16:07your phone.
468. 16:07And smartphone makers are doing this.
469. 16:09You're seeing AI features into different
470. 16:12Android apps by Google.
471. 16:14You're seeing Apple intelligence features
472. 16:16into different apps made by Apple.
473. 16:18And so developers are saying, well, if
474. 16:20chat bots are so popular.
475. 16:22And if the operating system is getting AI
476. 16:25features, therefore, I, the developer, am
477. 16:28supposed to also put AI features into my
478. 16:30app, because that's the thing now.
479. 16:33Um, and so that's changing the apps that
480. 16:37we cover that's changing the services
481. 16:38that we use, and that's changing the the
482. 16:41the, the economics of it all, really.
483. 16:45Yeah, it is.
484. 16:46And I think when you look at it, even if
485. 16:49a lot of these experiments in AI
486. 16:52integration and apps don't work out in
487. 16:54the long run, what is happening is that
488. 16:57all this money pouring into app
489. 16:59development right now, which I really
490. 17:01wasn't happening probably 3 or 4 years
491. 17:05ago, not anywhere close.
492. 17:07There really was a quiet period.
493. 17:09There was a very quiet period.
494. 17:10And from our perspective, looking at it
495. 17:13that's kind of boring.
496. 17:15I mean, there were there wasn't a lot
497. 17:17going on.
498. 17:17There wasn't a lot of action of new kinds
499. 17:20of apps.
500. 17:21And now we're seeing like some really
501. 17:23interesting approaches to old problems.
502. 17:26You just sent me a Mac app today that
503. 17:29does a new way to manage and navigate
504. 17:34your files on your Mac.
505. 17:36And it looks really interesting to me.
506. 17:37I look at it and I think, hmm, You know
507. 17:40maybe not, but on the other hand, I want
508. 17:43to try it.
509. 17:43And even if it doesn't succeed, doing
510. 17:46that and, you know, it's plugged into AI
511. 17:49in some way.
512. 17:49I think that there are ideas that are
513. 17:52being developed that are going to inform
514. 17:55more apps down the road.
515. 17:57And I think there's only good things can
516. 17:59come from that really.
517. 18:00Yeah, yeah.
518. 18:01And then I think, you know, you know
519. 18:05people keep saying that this AI bubble
520. 18:08will burst.
521. 18:09I don't know if that's the case, I do
522. 18:11think that it's unrealistic to think that
523. 18:15100s of startups will continue to exist
524. 18:18for the foreseeable future.
525. 18:20I do think that at some point there will
526. 18:22be some consolidation, some of the big
527. 18:25players will come in and scoop up a lot
528. 18:27of these startups.
529. 18:28I mean, just take a look at opening AI
530. 18:30which acquired Sky from the original
531. 18:32shortcuts team, even before it launched.
532. 18:35And I think that's going to happen with
533. 18:37all of these dictation apps, with all of
534. 18:39these AI-based file managers, AI-based
535. 18:42audio editors, like all of, it's
536. 18:45unrealistic to think that we're going to
537. 18:47be surrounded by 100s of apps in each
538. 18:50category of software, right?
539. 18:51So there will be, this is just history
540. 18:54speaking.
541. 18:55There will be, it's a cycle.
542. 18:57I spent 25 years as a bankruptcy lawyer.
543. 19:00I've seen a lot of bubbles in my time and
544. 19:03I know how it goes.
545. 19:04And there's, there are good and bad
546. 19:07things about bubbles.
547. 19:08I mean, there's always a human toll when
548. 19:10there's a bubble.
549. 19:11And I think that that's the part of it
550. 19:12that I soured on and why I don't do it
551. 19:15anymore.
552. 19:15But there's also, there can be good
553. 19:20things that come out of a bubble.
554. 19:21We saw it with the development of fiber
555. 19:24optic cable and that being strung across
556. 19:26the United States.
557. 19:27We saw it with the 1st web bubble and the
558. 19:30crash of the web in the early 2000s.
559. 19:33You know, all this investment is
560. 19:35happening and those assets, that
561. 19:37intellectual property, the computers
562. 19:39everything.
563. 19:40They're not going away.
564. 19:42They're still going to be there.
565. 19:43And they'll be available to be repurposed
566. 19:46for new ideas in the future that can be
567. 19:49acquired at a low price if it's from a
568. 19:52failure of a big company.
569. 19:54And that's not a bad thing.
570. 19:56That's why, I mean, I'm not going to get
571. 19:58into a lecture about bankruptcy, but
572. 20:00that's why bankruptcy.
573. 20:01That's fascinating, though, because I was
574. 20:03not thinking of your perspective.
575. 20:05Well, it's why bankruptcy exists.
576. 20:07At least historically, the reason
577. 20:08bankruptcy exists in the United States is
578. 20:11to efficiently reallocate assets from
579. 20:14businesses that fail for one reason or
580. 20:17another.
581. 20:17Maybe they fail because they're a bad
582. 20:19idea.
583. 20:19Maybe they just fail from political or
584. 20:21economic factors that are outside of the
585. 20:23control of the company.
586. 20:24But it's an efficient way of redeploying
587. 20:27assets to new uses that's governed by a
588. 20:32set of laws.
589. 20:33And I think that that is what we're
590. 20:35that's what everybody's anticipating.
591. 20:37And, you know, saying that there's a
592. 20:39bubble and that the bubble's going to
593. 20:41burst, that doesn't mean that AI is going
594. 20:43to go away.
595. 20:44And it doesn't mean that all these
596. 20:45companies are going to fail.
597. 20:47It just means that there are going to be
598. 20:49winners and losers.
599. 20:50And even the fact that they're losers is
600. 20:53not necessarily completely a bad thing is
601. 20:56all, I guess I'm explaining, is that that
602. 20:57capital, that, you know, those assets get
603. 21:01redeployed in a new way.
604. 21:03And life goes on.
605. 21:04So I, you know, I think, I think, yeah, I
606. 21:07think we are in some kind of bubble, and
607. 21:08I think it is going to burst, but I don't
608. 21:10think that there, that every idea that is
609. 21:13being pursued in the world of AI is a bad
610. 21:16idea.
611. 21:17I think it's here to stay, and I think it
612. 21:18does have good use cases.
613. 21:20The problem is, is that it's so overblown
614. 21:22right now.
615. 21:23You know, it's being sold is the solution
616. 21:25to everything.
617. 21:25And it's just probably not.
618. 21:29Right?
619. 21:30But you're saying that the infrastructure
620. 21:33will remain.
621. 21:33Yeah, exactly.
622. 21:35And, and, you know, and the people who
623. 21:37have studied it, you know, there's been
624. 21:39investments in people, investments in
625. 21:41equipment, investments, and all kinds of
626. 21:44things, networking, data centers, which
627. 21:46you know, data centers is a hot topic, I
628. 21:49know.
629. 21:49But, but yeah, I mean, there's all kinds
630. 21:52of things that have happened that'll be
631. 21:54it could end up, you know, all those data
632. 21:55centers, for instance, could end up just
633. 21:58leading to cheaper compute, to the point
634. 22:01where you and I might be able to afford
635. 22:03some time on a, on an NVIDA, you know
636. 22:07GPU.
637. 22:07Yeah.
638. 22:08It's almost likely if that's the case, it
639. 22:11means that all of these, I mean, just
640. 22:14take a look at all of these dictation
641. 22:15apps, for example, it's unrealistic to
642. 22:18think that I think 2 years from now, we
643. 22:21will still have 30 different AI dictation
644. 22:24apps for the Mac, right?
645. 22:25Some of them will be acquired, some of
646. 22:28them will shut down.
647. 22:29There maybe will continue to be a couple
648. 22:31of big players.
649. 22:32It reminds me of the boom of task
650. 22:35managers from a decade ago.
651. 22:36How many of those are still left today?
652. 22:38Right, right.
653. 22:40Less than less than 10, things to do is
654. 22:44tick, tick, omni-focus.
655. 22:46Yeah.
656. 22:49I mean, people are still making new ones
657. 22:52but the ones that were at the beginning
658. 22:53of that boom, most of them are gone.
659. 22:56Yeah, yeah.
660. 22:57And so I think this will also happen.
661. 22:59This will also happen with the AI apps
662. 23:01that we cover.
663. 23:02But right now that we are in this
664. 23:05context.
665. 23:07Um, I think from my perspective, something
666. 23:09that is changing is Chatbots are eating
667. 23:15into a lot of the features that I used to
668. 23:18find an app for or design a shortcut or
669. 23:24an automation for.
670. 23:25We spoke about this last week on the plus
671. 23:28segment of AppStories Plus, like the
672. 23:30changing role of automation.
673. 23:31And chatbots are eating into, you know, 5
674. 23:36years ago, I maybe could have considered
675. 23:39like a Python IDE for the Mac or a web
676. 23:44browser dedicated to research.
677. 23:46And now I'm just consolidating all of
678. 23:49those features into Claude because it's
679. 23:51an easier interface and it's more
680. 23:53powerful.
681. 23:53But a byproduct of that is also not just
682. 23:58that I'm that I'm consolidating workflows
683. 24:01and functionalities into chatbots, which
684. 24:03I think a lot of people are doing the
685. 24:04same.
686. 24:04But it also means that when I do want to
687. 24:07use a standalone app outside of the
688. 24:10chatbot for something like my task
689. 24:12manager, I tend to prioritize apps.
690. 24:16There are not silos, apps that have an
691. 24:19API, apps that support extensions, apps
692. 24:22that let me take my data, and let me put
693. 24:25that data in a in a conversational way
694. 24:28inside of a chatbot.
695. 24:30Yep.
696. 24:31Yep.
697. 24:31And I think that that's a good example of
698. 24:34how this isn't just really a control
699. 24:38issue from Apple's perspective with the
700. 24:41App Store.
701. 24:42It's really widespread because these
702. 24:46chatbots are going to, I think, cause a
703. 24:50lot of people to prefer interoperability
704. 24:53and openness and and the kind of, um
705. 24:57modalities that you can do with AI that
706. 25:01aren't available in any app that's trying
707. 25:03to remain closed.
708. 25:04Yeah, yeah.
709. 25:06Um, I think, I don't know.
710. 25:09The last thing I will say is maybe that
711. 25:13um, when I started Mac stories, um, you
712. 25:19know, back in the, in the golden days of
713. 25:22Twitter, um, the delicious generation of
714. 25:26apps on the Mac, um, there was this, this
715. 25:30sort of like, These days people would
716. 25:33call it like builder culture, or hacker
717. 25:37culture.
718. 25:38And it used to be about making apps.
719. 25:40It used to be about making software that
720. 25:43ran on the iPhone, which was new and then
721. 25:45there was the whole, for a couple of
722. 25:47years, there was the whole boom of iPad
723. 25:49apps.
724. 25:50I remember the original flipboard or read
725. 25:53it later, Insta paper.
726. 25:56Daily, I think...
727. 25:58Daily, the Daily, Digital Magazine.
728. 26:01The magazine by Marco Armand, the
729. 26:05original one.
730. 26:06The original Twitter for iPad, which I
731. 26:10still consider one of the greatest pieces
732. 26:11of software ever made by Lauren
733. 26:12Brichter.
734. 26:13But for a few years in that, you know, I
735. 26:18would say 2008 to 2013 until up until iOS
736. 26:247.
737. 26:26The idea of like builder culture used to
738. 26:28be about making apps, making native apps
739. 26:32especially for Apple platforms.
740. 26:34Now, It's very much, it's very much been
741. 26:39replaced by making web apps and building
742. 26:43software for AI.
743. 26:45I still I spend time on all the social
744. 26:48networks.
745. 26:49And unfortunately, you know, the social
746. 26:54media landscape is another conversation
747. 26:56in and of itself.
748. 26:57It's very fragmented.
749. 26:58A lot of people still posting on X, then
750. 27:01you have Blue Sky, then you have Mastodon
751. 27:03then you have threats, you have Reddit.
752. 27:04I spend time on all of them.
753. 27:06Besides threads, because I really don't
754. 27:09like threads.
755. 27:09And I see this, like young developers, or
756. 27:14even like developers that I knew from
757. 27:16back in the day, as like Indian
758. 27:18developers making native software, I see
759. 27:21I see them making this change.
760. 27:23They're making web stuff.
761. 27:24They're making web apps, they're making
762. 27:27software for LLMs. tinkering with LLMs.
763. 27:30This is very much a thing that has
764. 27:31changed for me.
765. 27:33Like the same, some of the same people
766. 27:35that I knew from the previous era of Mac
767. 27:39stories and the App Store.
768. 27:41Now they're doing something completely
769. 27:42different.
770. 27:43And that's interesting.
771. 27:45I don't really know if that's better or
772. 27:48worse.
773. 27:49It's interesting. from my.
774. 27:51It's just different.
775. 27:52And this is, I mean, obviously this is
776. 27:54something that you and I have thought
777. 27:56about a lot because it does impact what
778. 27:58we do and we, you know, we kind of roll
779. 28:00with the punches.
780. 28:01Yeah, I think we are in a very fortunate
781. 28:04and privileged position to be able to
782. 28:07have this conversation.
783. 28:08Like, it, uh, being on the web with the
784. 28:12same website for 16 years is...
785. 28:16It's kind of unheard of these days
786. 28:18especially with the last few years with
787. 28:19lots and lots of longtime websites, you
788. 28:23know, going away.
789. 28:24Yeah, and it's been a struggle, but that
790. 28:26also allows us, I think, to have that
791. 28:28kind of perspective, and I think it also
792. 28:30helps that both you and I, we very much
793. 28:34don't have the mindset of, let's just
794. 28:38settle with the things that we know and
795. 28:40we're familiar with.
796. 28:41And sometimes, you know, it can be
797. 28:44stressful to keep up with the times and
798. 28:47keep up with everything that's changing
799. 28:50on a weekly basis.
800. 28:51It's fun too, though.
801. 28:53It's like fun.
802. 28:54It's a fun, stressful.
803. 28:55It's busy.
804. 28:57And it can also, and it can also be
805. 28:58stressful for our readers and our
806. 29:00listeners.
807. 29:00Oh, yeah, for sure.
808. 29:01And I totally understand, understand
809. 29:03that.
810. 29:03And I got those comments from people
811. 29:05saying, no, I saw in a screenshot that
812. 29:08you were using this and then a month
813. 29:09later you're using that.
814. 29:11So what do you actually recommend?
815. 29:12And it's become, I guess, I guess, I will
816. 29:16wrap it up here.
817. 29:17It is, it, it is been, it's now hard.
818. 29:20I used to do these articles.
819. 29:22Years ago, at the end of the year.
820. 29:25My must have apps.
821. 29:26It's hard to do that kind of article now
822. 29:31because it's hard to settle on anything
823. 29:34for a long time.
824. 29:37If you are the kind of person who wants
825. 29:39to try new tech.
826. 29:40We have friends who are like, no, I don't
827. 29:44care about that.
828. 29:44I just want to settle with workflow for a
829. 29:46year or a couple of years.
830. 29:48I don't want to touch it ever again, which
831. 29:49is totally respectable and
832. 29:51understandable.
833. 29:51Right.
834. 29:52But we like to try stuff.
835. 29:54And so right now, it's so difficult to
836. 29:57say, yes, I can tell you that the
837. 29:59absolute best must have app in this
838. 30:03category that I'm going to use forever is
839. 30:04this one.
840. 30:06Yeah, I know.
841. 30:07I lost count of how many times you and I
842. 30:09switched task managers and email clients
843. 30:11this year.
844. 30:11Yeah, yeah.
845. 30:13And, and that's, I would say, the thing
846. 30:17that is the most different. from years
847. 30:20ago.
848. 30:20Years ago, you could make a definitive
849. 30:24assessment.
850. 30:24You could take a look at take a look at a
851. 30:26category of apps on the App Store and say
852. 30:28yes, this one is the best, right?
853. 30:30Now, not so much.
854. 30:33Especially because like everything is so
855. 30:35I don't know, extensible and malleable
856. 30:38you know, with shortcuts and up intents
857. 30:40and AI and MCP.
858. 30:42Like everything is sort of blending
859. 30:44together into these new types of
860. 30:46workflows where.
861. 30:47Yeah, there's no such thing as a
862. 30:48monolithic app anymore.
863. 30:50Apps exist in all different places from
864. 30:52your home screen to your automations to
865. 30:55everyone.
866. 30:55Exactly, exactly, exactly.
867. 30:57And it's so fluid, maybe.
868. 30:59The best way to think about it that, um
869. 31:03you gotta take, I think, more of a
870. 31:05holistic view of apps.
871. 31:08What do you want to accomplish?
872. 31:12In general versus which individual apps
873. 31:15do you want to slot into the specific, you
874. 31:20know, areas of your daily life.
875. 31:22It's Right.
876. 31:23And how are those apps interconnect and
877. 31:25relate to each other?
878. 31:26I think that's just as important today as
879. 31:28anything.
880. 31:29All right, Federicoico, well, that's a
881. 31:33really good conversation.
882. 31:34We've been having deep conversations this
883. 31:35week, you and I've got a good mech
884. 31:37stories unwind.
885. 31:38You gotta give me a fun topic on App
886. 31:41Stories Plus, please.
887. 31:42All right.
888. 31:43Well, you know, for AppStories Plus.
889. 31:44We are going to create a little wish list
890. 31:47you and I. We're each going to come up
891. 31:49with gear and gadgets that if money were
892. 31:53no object, we would like to.
893. 31:56Oh, we're gonna spend fake money.
894. 31:58We're going to spend fake money.
895. 31:59This is our Christmas list.
896. 32:00It's an early Christmas list, right?
897. 32:02If money were no options.
898. 32:04If we had a friend with an extra $1000000
899. 32:06lying around who wants to spend it on us
900. 32:07what would we get?
901. 32:09All right.
902. 32:10We'll spend it.
903. 32:11We'll spend it.
904. 32:11We'll figure it out.
905. 32:12All right, everybody.
906. 32:13Thanks for joining us today.
907. 32:14You can find the 2 of us over at
908. 32:16Macstories.net and we're on social
909. 32:18media.
910. 32:18Just look for Federicoico.
911. 32:20He's at Fetici.
912. 32:21That's VITICCI, and look up me.
913. 32:25I'm John Voorhees, J-O-H-N, the V-O-R, H
914. 32:28W-S. Talk to you next week, Federico, go.
915. 32:31T John.