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The Enduring Power of White Guilt with Shelby Steele — Transcript

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0:04good evening
0:05and welcome to our school's seventh
0:06webinar in our civic discourse project
0:09this academic year
0:10our theme this year has been race
0:12justice and leadership
0:13in america i'm paul karis i'm the
0:15director of the school of civic
0:17and economic thought and leadership here
0:19at arizona state university
0:21and we are delighted to be joined this
0:23evening by prominent scholar and social
0:25critic
0:25shelby steele of the hoover institution
0:28at stanford university
0:30he will discuss his views on the
0:32discourse about race and justice
0:34in america in recent decades part of our
0:37school's mission
0:38is to promote civic dialogue about
0:40pressing issues of our time
0:42and each academic year our speaker
0:44series the civic discourse project
0:47extends the conversations and debates of
0:49our classrooms
0:50to a broader community you can visit our
0:54website to see all of our previous
0:56lectures in the civic discourse project
0:58you also can learn about our school's
0:59curriculum and programs
1:01that's at scetl.asu.edu
1:08we'll have three main parts to the hour
1:10this evening
1:11first a presentation from shelby steele
1:14then i'll post some questions in
1:16conversation with him
1:18and then in the third part we'll have a
1:20q a session
1:21from the virtual community that is
1:23joining us
1:24so please do type your questions for
1:27shelby steele
1:28using the q a feature in zoom
1:31our colleague dr carol mcnamara will
1:34collect
1:34those questions behind the scenes and
1:36then i will be posing them
1:38during the final segment so now to our
1:40guest
1:42we are delighted to welcome shelby
1:44steele the robert j
1:45and marion e oster senior fellow
1:48at the hoover institution at stanford
1:50university he specializes in the study
1:53of race
1:55multiculturalism and affirmative action
1:58and he's written widely on race
1:59relations in american society
2:01and the consequences of contemporary
2:03social programs on race relations
2:06in 2006 shelby steele was awarded the
2:09bradley prize
2:10for his contributions to the study of
2:12race in america in 2004 he was awarded
2:14the national humanities medal
2:17in 1991 his work on the documentary
2:20seven days in bensonhurst
2:22was recognized with an emmy award and
2:24two awards for television documentary
2:26writing
2:27the writers guild award and the san
2:29francisco film festival award
2:32still received the national book critics
2:34circle award
2:35in the general nonfiction category for
2:37his 1990 book
2:38the content of our character a new
2:40vision of race relations in america
2:43excuse me a new vision of race in
2:45america other books by steele include
2:48shame how america's past sins have
2:51polarized our country
2:522015. white guilt
2:55how blacks and whites together destroyed
2:57the promise of the civil rights era
2:592006 and a dream deferred
3:03the second betrayal of black freedom in
3:06america
3:061998. he has written essays for the new
3:10york times
3:11and the wall street journal among many
3:13other publications
3:14he is a contributing editor at harper's
3:17magazine
3:18and he has appeared on national news
3:20programs including
3:22nightline and 60 minutes dr steele is a
3:25member of the national association of
3:27scholars
3:28the national board of the american
3:29academy for liberal education
3:32the university accreditation association
3:34and the national board of the center for
3:36the new american community
3:38at the manhattan institute he holds a
3:40phd in english from the university of
3:42utah
3:43and m.a in sociology from southern
3:45illinois university
3:47and a ba in political science from co
3:50college
3:51in iowa
3:55so dr steele i think is going to be
3:57joining us just by phone is that correct
3:59shelby
4:01that's what it looks like well
4:04unfortunately
4:06our guests have to look at me rather
4:08than you that's unfortunate
4:09but we are delighted to hear your voice
4:12and thank you for joining us for
4:14your remarks the floor is now yours on
4:16the enduring power
4:17of white guilt in america thank you
4:21okay okay well thank you i'm i may
4:26be catching my breath a little bit here
4:27from from uh
4:29racing around with the computer uh if i
4:33um have any expertise at all in race
4:36relations i certainly have none
4:38whatsoever in computers
4:40but we did our best um
4:44well i've been invited to speak uh about
4:47uh
4:48basically to talk about white guilt
4:51which is i think a very misunderstood
4:54term
4:55and a term that's uh
4:58difficult to communicate about a little
5:02causes a little awkwardness i think in
5:04most people
5:06but i think white guilt is
5:09at the heart of
5:12race relations in america today and
5:16that it's hard to understand what's
5:17going on really without
5:19a sharp understanding of it so so let me
5:22start a little bit
5:23i think i have about uh eight or nine
5:25minutes is that probably about right
5:27that's just great thanks um okay then
5:30that's what i'll i'll try to run with
5:32here
5:34i think the the biggest moment in
5:39race relations in america with the other
5:41except
5:42the emancipation proclamation i think is
5:44certainly one
5:45but i think the the next biggest one
5:47happened in the 1960s
5:51and it it this was a period
5:54when the civil rights movement sort of
5:57came to a head
5:58uh we had been struggling with race uh
6:01for centuries at that point
6:03the 1960s i think represented what i
6:06like to call the great
6:07confession this was a moment in american
6:11history
6:13where america finally after four
6:16centuries of racial stress from slavery
6:19to segregation and so forth and so on
6:22america finally confessed that this was
6:26a this was something wrong
6:28and needed to be redressed
6:32and so i think it was
6:36and when a nation confesses something
6:38like this
6:40which is very rare i i don't really know
6:43of another incident where anything
6:46has happened like this it's certainly a
6:48measure i think of america's greatness
6:51that it happened here um but
6:54when you confess to a sin uh
6:57on the scale of slavery and segregation
7:01so every aspect of american life
7:04racially segregated
7:05blacks oppressed denied every manner of
7:08opportunity
7:10uh treated as subhuman so forth and so
7:12on
7:13when you confess to something like that
7:17there is a profound loss of moral
7:20authority
7:22uh it's inevitable and
7:25my feeling is after thinking about this
7:28for a long time
7:30that this loss of moral authority is
7:33uh what has driven race relations since
7:36the 60s
7:39america how do you conduct business when
7:42anybody can look at you and say well
7:45you know what you did you've now
7:47admitted it it's
7:49it is it's on the record there's no
7:51doubt this country
7:53is uh as as we see many people today
7:56is grounded in the evil of racism and
7:59so forth and so on
8:03white guilt really is not
8:06a feeling of guilt it is simply
8:10enduring this loss of moral authority
8:14one minute having it in the next minute
8:16understanding
8:17that you don't have it you don't have
8:19the the authority
8:21to enforce in society the kinds of
8:24values and principles that
8:26you once did have the authority to
8:29to do but the the confession now sort of
8:32deprives you of that
8:34and so america has functioned since the
8:3760s
8:38without a really firm and clear moral
8:41authority
8:43when i was a young kid i grew up in
8:45segregation in a segregated world
8:48in chicago every neighborhood was
8:50segregated every school was segregated
8:53everything was was segregated
8:56uh and people would explain that whites
8:59would explain that to me saying
9:00by saying it's god's will
9:05it's it's people like to be with their
9:07own kind
9:09uh it's it's uh it's a natural
9:12thing maybe it's it's your tough luck
9:14that you were born black
9:16but uh there we are
9:19um uh and and
9:22it slavery racism does not in any way
9:26compromise
9:27our moral authority and our our
9:29determination
9:30to run society and and establish the
9:33rules that we want to
9:35it doesn't it doesn't weaken us in any
9:37way
9:38well after the 60s that was gone
9:43uh and the civil rights movement i think
9:47gets credit for accomplishing that i
9:50grew up in that movement my parents were
9:51involved in it
9:53did the demonstrations and so forth when
9:55we went out on a demonstration
9:58we had to wear a shirt and a tie and a
10:00jacket
10:02and before we were allowed to step into
10:04the demonstration the march
10:07uh we had to we had to agree
10:10that no matter who attacked us no matter
10:13who
10:14injured us in any way we would never
10:17fight back ever we would never return
10:21the blows we would never
10:23resort to violence we would instead
10:26go limp or stand in a
10:29solid sort of way and what we would do
10:32is
10:32offer moral witness
10:36to whatever our complaint was
10:39that it was a great movement it
10:41transformed
10:43the issue of race in america
10:46into a moral issue it was not a moral
10:50issue
10:51before that moment when i was a boy
10:54nobody gave a
10:55good you know what about the fate of
10:58black people
11:00blacks were just too bad on their own
11:02and prejud
11:03and oppressed
11:06today we anguish if the numbers for
11:09college admission of blacks are not
11:11healthy enough or not what we want them
11:13to be
11:15uh we worry about blacks their their
11:18sensibility on campus whether they need
11:20safe spaces we
11:21we fret over this kind of thing are they
11:23going to be triggered in some way and
11:26and feel some some anxiety about
11:30functioning on the campus of uh with of
11:32largely white people
11:34um so it's a it is a
11:37uh uh a a very different very different
11:42situation
11:44white guilt is the compulsion
11:48that was born after this
11:51confession to prove our innocence
11:54of it to say no it does not represent
11:57the real america we are better than that
12:01uh we can prove that and of course right
12:04away in the mid 60s president
12:06lyndon johnson came forth with every
12:09kind of social program
12:11basically without saying it directed at
12:13blacks
12:15um he he uh
12:18uh created the great society the war on
12:22poverty
12:23school busing public housing
12:26on and on and uh one huge program after
12:30another by this time
12:31trillions of dollars have been spent on
12:33these these these programs
12:37why did that happen my sense is
12:41again it was it was white guilt that
12:44drove those programs it was the
12:46the sense in the american people that we
12:49have to redeem ourselves
12:51we did these people a horrible thing we
12:53treated them in horrible ways
12:55we have to redeem ourselves in order to
12:58have
12:58political legitimacy
13:01uh if we don't do something for
13:03something redemptive
13:05then it it it diminishes our legitimacy
13:08and and our right to
13:10to conduct society in a in a healthy way
13:14uh and so white guilt uh was this
13:18is in its very essence this pressure
13:22to prove innocence of racism
13:26of all of the old uh evil sins
13:29that america committed earlier in its
13:32history
13:35and so white guilt as as
13:38[Music]
13:39i think i think is is today is pretty is
13:42still
13:43underrated we still don't understand how
13:45huge it is
13:47how powerful it is
13:51i looked this morning it's wall street
13:53journal's a long article in corporate
13:54america
13:56um that they're hiring blacks as fast as
13:59they can but they're not able to keep
14:00them
14:03that they they don't don't stay around
14:05long don't
14:06don't really join finally fit into
14:10the corporate world the corporate model
14:14the implication being somehow that
14:16there's something wrong with american
14:18corporations that blacks are not
14:19thriving there
14:22that's the that's the white guilt
14:24interpretation
14:25uh and keeps the problem within the
14:28framework of white innocence and white
14:30guilt
14:33that's the way affirmative action works
14:35that's the way again
14:36all these social programs uh have tended
14:40to function for the last
14:4260 years now the remarkable
14:46thing about these the this this white
14:49guilt-driven social
14:51reform excuse me
14:55is that it all failed it's one
14:59long uninterrupted exercise
15:02in in failure
15:06blacks are farther behind whites today
15:09in all by almost every single
15:11socio-economic measure
15:14that we know of they graduate
15:19from high school college at lower rates
15:21than
15:22than every other group they have the
15:25highest dropout rate in college of any
15:27other group
15:29uh you go into any medical school most
15:31of the medical schools you
15:32you in the freshman year you will find
15:34many blacks but then by the end of that
15:36year
15:37many are gone but and and many are
15:40who remain are at the very bottom
15:45white guilt-driven
15:48social policies have nothing
15:52to do with black development
15:56they have to do with white innocence
16:01they are about white innocence they are
16:03about what opportunities
16:06for whites to show um
16:11themselves to be innocent of
16:14uh those sins of the past um
16:19and so they are about recovering
16:22the moral authority lost in that
16:25confession
16:27um i'll leave it to others to judge
16:30whether they've
16:31they've succeeded in any way or to what
16:33degree they have or have not uh
16:36but that's what the programs really were
16:38about
16:40uh we didn't care whether they worked we
16:42in in the
16:43film i just did on on michael brown we
16:45looked at the pruitt igo house
16:47public housing uh in st
16:50louis in the back in the 60s and so
16:52forth the 50s and
16:54you see these huge skyscrapers built
16:58public housing for poor blacks but then
17:01they don't allow any men in the in the
17:03families the
17:04men have to leave the building have to
17:06leave the premises so
17:07it begins this sort of long uh
17:11process where you you destroy
17:14the people the families that you claim
17:17to be
17:18helping well mostly most of the social
17:21reform if not all of it
17:23since the 60s has done precisely this
17:27has created therefore a huge black
17:30underclass when i was growing up there
17:32was no black underclass there were
17:34people who were poor
17:35i was one of them but there was no
17:37spirit-less sort of nihilistic
17:40underclass of people drifting around
17:43inner cities across the country with no
17:45direction
17:46often illiterate in the modern world
17:49unable to find a way to survive and
17:53thrive
17:53in the modern world yet we have on the
17:56other side
17:57all these sort of white drill
17:59guilt-driven social policies
18:01uh that are supposed to be lifting these
18:03people up
18:06why did they fail well i think they
18:08committed then i think
18:10my time may be up they they failed
18:14uh they they all failed
18:18um again because
18:21they were about um
18:25the struggle with innocence in white
18:27america rather than
18:29the development of people who had been
18:32held down for four centuries
18:34if you've been held down for four
18:36centuries you're going to be
18:37underdeveloped
18:39you're going to need to to take on the
18:41challenges
18:42of taking on values and
18:46development of skills and taking on
18:49principles and so forth that allow you
18:51to thrive in modernity
18:54all of these social programs trillions
18:56and trillions of dollars worth of them
18:58never did that and so blacks
19:03are today we're solved whites ironically
19:06are doing pretty good
19:07um there there's probably they did make
19:11true moral progress uh since the 60s we
19:14do
19:15understand racism to be wrong to be an
19:18evil
19:19uh and that is a moral cultural and
19:22moral development
19:23advancement that is certainly for the
19:26good
19:28i'll i'll stop there thank you so much
19:31um
19:33yeah sure while you're well you're
19:34looking for a glass of water i i will um
19:38um make my own small confession here i
19:41was not
19:42expecting to pose this question to you
19:44as the first
19:45follow-up question but listening to you
19:48i'm i'm struck by an analogy
19:52of all people to malcolm x
19:55that seems to me what you're arguing is
19:57that
19:58the dominant discourse about race
20:00relations in america
20:02for many decades but now in the early
20:04part of the 21st century
20:06is too focused on the needs of whites
20:09and on the emotional needs of whites and
20:12contrary to the intentions
20:14of the white majority again these are
20:17all freighted terms what does it mean to
20:18be white
20:19in the you know what does it mean to be
20:20black but um
20:24the dominant discourse is self-serving
20:26the majority whites
20:28in our emotional needs i'll put myself
20:30away in the category white
20:31and it's not adequately a malcolm x
20:33might say it's not adequately focused on
20:36the needs of however defined black
20:39people and
20:40actually concretely practically helping
20:43black people is that a fair
20:45characteristic i think it's
20:46uh i mean i know you don't agree with
20:48malcolm x on a great many things
20:50no i i agree with him on uh on many many
20:53things
20:53um the late malcolm x not the early one
20:56but the late one
20:58um what malcolm saw
21:02i think is what so few people see
21:05when you come forward with these kinds
21:08of social programs that really are about
21:11uplifting the moral uh the
21:14of the larger society
21:17you you are stealing the thunder
21:21the the sense of agency the scent the
21:24feeling that i'm a person i determine my
21:27own fate my
21:28fate is in my hands my fate has
21:31something to do with the way
21:32it's connected to the way i live
21:35what all those programs said to black
21:38people is listen
21:40we don't trust that you can improve
21:43yourself
21:44that you can develop we have no faith in
21:47your ability to do it
21:49that's why we're going to give you all
21:50these crazy things that we don't even
21:52bother to think out
21:54we're just going to give you more
21:56welfare without any
21:58question of whether that helps you or
21:59hurt you
22:01um and so in
22:04white driven and white guilt driven
22:06policies are always
22:07are always blind to the humanity
22:11of the people they claim to be helping
22:13they don't see them as human beings
22:16as peers they see them
22:19as inferiors liberalism in america for
22:2360 years now has been based on the
22:26presumption of black
22:28inferiority not the presumption
22:32that we're equal that we're strong that
22:35we're competitive
22:37but the on the presumption that we're a
22:40little less
22:41human than others that we can't be
22:43expected
22:45to compete to develop ourselves
22:48um this is the the the perniciousness of
22:52it
22:53um uh i'm i'm a great fan malcolm is the
22:56is the only one uh lee not certainly not
22:59the only leader but he is
23:01he is the only one nationally known with
23:03who's ever voiced
23:04this point this point of view before and
23:07boy is it
23:08one that that we need but the reasons he
23:11had
23:12he ran into trouble i run into trouble
23:14others would take this point of view
23:15running into trouble
23:17uh is is because blood you know blacks
23:20who are
23:20so seduced by the programs they get are
23:23going to say
23:24you're an uncle tom you're cutting us
23:26off from the help we need to thrive
23:29and you say well the help you need to
23:32thrive makes you sell your soul
23:34to the devil you you're you're giving
23:37away
23:38agency over your own fate over your own
23:40life
23:42uh and what where where have you ever
23:44seen in history a group
23:46do that and and thrive uh
23:49no we have to do it my own personal
23:52sense
23:53is we need we need what i grew up with
23:57in the black community
23:58a focus on dignity
24:01we thank you very much we we can't
24:04we can't change what america's wrongs of
24:08the past were but we're going to move
24:09forward to the future
24:10and and become competitive in the modern
24:14world
24:16well thank you i have a few more
24:17questions for you before we turn to the
24:19audience
24:20uh questions but a reminder to the
24:21audience please use
24:23the q a function in zoom you can see
24:26to type questions and and we'll be
24:29posing some questions to dr steele in
24:31the third
24:32part of the program i wanted to turn to
24:36some of the fundamental views that you
24:38have voiced in the past
24:39about what the american ideal should be
24:43regarding race relations and i already
24:45mentioned the title of your your 1990
24:47book the content of our character which
24:49invokes the phrase made famous by the
24:52reverend dr martin luther king in his
24:541963 address
24:55that the american dream is to make
24:58racial distinctions a secondary or at
25:00least a harmless dimension
25:02of american life and i should say that
25:03we ask our students to read and discuss
25:06dr king's address among many other
25:08classic american texts about these
25:10issues
25:11our pocket constitution adds
25:14the i have a dream address and the
25:16gettysburg address to the declaration of
25:18independence and
25:19and the constitution but as you well
25:21know dr king's view
25:23of this ideal has fallen out of favor in
25:26recent decades so
25:27in terms of the ideal at which you think
25:29you should be aiming
25:30what do you say to critics who say that
25:33the the horrible history of centuries
25:35and the persistence
25:36in the past 60 years of racism
25:40suggests it's it's naive or impossible
25:43to think that americans could focus on
25:46individuality
25:47and and as you just said individual
25:49dignity
25:50and see most people in terms of their
25:52individual character
25:54rather than all of us seeing each other
25:57in terms of
25:58racial categories what what is your
25:59response to that skepticism
26:02well it's uh some a problem i'm working
26:05on now in a
26:07slightly different way but
26:10it is a it is a a belief
26:13that identity is more important
26:18and a better source of power
26:21than one's citizenship in the nation in
26:24a
26:26a nation like america a free democratic
26:28society
26:30um it's a it is the i it is racism
26:35it believes again in the atavistic
26:38what's more what's important is i'm
26:41black and the people
26:42and you're black and so now we're all
26:44together
26:46and we're going to in our blackness
26:49whatever that may be we're going to rise
26:52up
26:52and and be powerful in the world
26:56um well in reality of course it probably
27:00the the opposite is true your your
27:02identity is something you
27:04you sort of embrace when all else when
27:06all hope is gone
27:08um and the
27:14white guilt makes has made identity a
27:17source of power
27:19what we do is we link the identity
27:22with victimization we say
27:26black the black identity is weak boy my
27:29god we've been victimized
27:31uh for centuries now and so forth and
27:34and
27:34as a black person belonging to that
27:37identity
27:39i'm due all sorts of entitlements and
27:42and so forth and so i can make my
27:45special plea
27:46against the strictures of democracy
27:50i can make my special plea in the basis
27:53of that my
27:54identity has been victimized
27:58and so all of a sudden we become super
28:00black
28:01we we just black black black black black
28:04black black
28:06because we think that's the whole that's
28:08our hope that's that's the way
28:10there's power in that white guilt
28:15says oh okay we'll give you a black
28:17history month
28:19we'll give you this little thing and
28:20that little black thing and this little
28:22black thing
28:22and uh um
28:24[Music]
28:26and we'll win our innocence by playing
28:29along with your
28:32silliness your indulgence in the idea of
28:35identity as a source of power
28:38identity is not a source of power if it
28:40was my goodness we've been
28:42we did the whole black thing i grew up
28:44in the black power era
28:46i was a part of it i confess um
28:49it doesn't do it doesn't make you a
28:51person who's going to
28:53thrive in the modern world
28:57it it deflects you it distracts you
29:00it it takes away from your development
29:04rather than add to it um
29:09we we must instead with the the
29:12challenge
29:13is to identify when
29:17black being black i'm you know i've
29:19studied black american culture all my
29:21life i'm proud of it
29:22uh i i have learned enormously from it
29:26uh
29:26anybody who wants to take the time to
29:28really look at
29:30at it will benefit and and and uh
29:33i'll be at the head of the line i mean
29:35uh don't get me started
29:37i'll i'll get going on on the credit
29:41overwhelming creativity of black
29:43americans in the 20s they created one of
29:45the world's great literatures
29:47in the 20th century uh created them
29:50chained transformed music on the whole
29:53planet
29:54uh they've done all sorts of amazing
29:57amazing things
29:58we don't need a month for that that's
30:00that's all for
30:02you know i want to join the world i
30:04don't want to just be an isolated ghetto
30:06guy we can
30:07you know but when we get confused by
30:10identity
30:12identity kill is such a consolation that
30:15it confuses us and we
30:16we again miss the the real challenge
30:19which is development
30:21don't know if i answered your question
30:23no that's very helpful i suppose
30:26there was one point you made that one
30:28sure that we become
30:30um people who are somehow beyond
30:34um bigger than uh
30:37an ethnic or a racial uh identity
30:40uh i'm all for i'm all for that
30:43my biggest collective identity is the
30:45united states of america
30:48this is my home i was born and raised
30:51here
30:52i've been through the good and the bad
30:54this is my country
30:56i am i want to make it i want to make it
30:58a better country
30:59that's my identity that that i
31:03am black is like a religion
31:06it's my private matter private business
31:09it's
31:10i don't want to necessarily keep it from
31:13other people or inflict it on other
31:14people
31:15it enriches me so as we have a
31:17separation of church and state
31:21i for one would love to see a separation
31:23of identity and state
31:26your identity should count for
31:28absolutely
31:29nothing in the public affairs of a
31:32democracy
31:34uh it's something that you privately
31:36take responsibility for
31:38and enrich yourself by and in whatever
31:40ways you can
31:41and as somebody who's from another group
31:43if i see something in your group i like
31:45i'll be enriched by that we'll really
31:47begin to have a melting pot
31:49uh but we have in the last 60 years
31:53elevated this idea of identity
31:55uh to the point where it's i think
31:58really
31:59really destructive so again the premise
32:01there would be
32:02given given the
32:06constitutional amendments after the
32:07civil war given
32:09the super legislation so to speak of the
32:111960s the voting rights act the civil
32:13rights act given some other important
32:15pieces of legislation since
32:17that are oriented toward the
32:21the ideal we we interviewed glenn lowery
32:24a few weeks ago right the the the
32:26american ideal
32:28of racially transcendent humanism right
32:30if
32:31if we accept as the premise that these
32:34constitutional and super statute changes
32:36have occurred
32:38then you could say race should not be
32:42the primary anybody's primary identity
32:44in the public sphere of public policy
32:46it is important as an individual choice
32:49or
32:49a community choice to celebrate a
32:52particular racial identity
32:54um but that the focus on it is not
32:57productive
32:58and i want to emphasize it's not
32:59productive for
33:01individuals of a racial minority group
33:04you're saying black americans
33:06if it's the focus of your public
33:07identity as well as private yes
33:10yeah you you've been seduced
33:13um and um you know what is important is
33:18is is your national identity your larger
33:21idea this is you know you and i
33:23as citizens uh have to live by the same
33:26laws we have the
33:28the same rights the same
33:31responsibilities
33:33i can i can hold you to them you can
33:35hold me to them um
33:38we have a mutual interest if we join the
33:41army and go to war for our country where
33:44we fight together no matter what our
33:46backgrounds are so forth
33:47that's a beautiful thing and it's it's
33:50freedom that's what it's called freedom
33:52what we have with identity is tribalism
33:56the idea that the tribe is the truth is
33:59the atavistic
34:00truth and that that somehow
34:03if we if we can the tribe has to
34:06negotiate
34:08peace or or terms by which we live
34:11with with these others even though
34:14they're
34:15we're citizens of the of the same
34:17country well it's
34:18it's uh tribalism is a
34:21is a again a kind of desperation
34:25that that uh never works out
34:28particularly
34:29uh in america uh a free a country as
34:33free as this
34:36so just to follow up on the the new
34:39development of
34:40white guilt as now white fragility
34:44um is it your view that even if
34:47elite institutions you said corporations
34:49are hiring
34:51black americans especially in recent
34:52years to try to overcome
34:55what's seen as systemic racisms and
34:57persistent racism
34:59in a systemic way against black
35:00americans even though elite institutions
35:03corporations universities others
35:04might be adopting this white fragility
35:06thesis or an anti-racism thesis
35:09your argument is it still won't work
35:13as a collective american approach to
35:16race relations
35:18even if elites adopt this view because
35:22it's still too divisive
35:23and and your term uh tribal we won't
35:27overcome
35:28the legacy of racism if we keep on this
35:31path no matter how many elite
35:33institutions adopt this
35:35this view uh yes absolutely i think
35:38um you know
35:41the idea of white fragility is in itself
35:45inherently racist
35:47you know it supports a larger system
35:49that that
35:50um uh
35:53it supports the idea that that the the
35:57ethnic collectives
35:59are somehow really really as important
36:02as national citizenship
36:07and they're not if if you come here
36:10because you want to be a burmese person
36:14you probably it's going to be it's going
36:16to be a struggle
36:18um and the presumption
36:22has has been until the 60s the
36:24presumption
36:25uh has been that if you come here you
36:27want to assimilate
36:29um well now here we get into a very
36:32dicey area when we're
36:33in the area of race assimilation
36:36is wha oh that's a a forbidden thing
36:39that's that's
36:40mimicking white people that's mimicry
36:43it's it has ugly connotations to it
36:47um and yet the blacks that you see who
36:50are
36:50very successful let's begin with with
36:53president
36:54obama uh our
36:57speak eloquently are assimilated uh
37:00in every way uh to an
37:03international kind of norm
37:06uh of of excellence and of values and so
37:10forth and
37:11are at the very least successful
37:14uh yet in the inner city and many
37:18inner-city schools we're back on this
37:21the drum beat of identity
37:23your your blackness is what's important
37:25and what has to be respected and what
37:27has to be treated
37:28as something sacred and and it's what's
37:30going to
37:31to uh make you transcendent
37:35um no it's going to keep you backward
37:40you unless you learn how to really mesh
37:42bring it into
37:44the modern world uh and that's
37:47that that's not an easy that's not an
37:49easy thing to do but
37:50that's what the black leadership should
37:52be doing bringing us into
37:54not a white world but a modern world
37:57into modernity itself our problem is
38:00that we
38:01under development keeps you out of those
38:05those avenues we need to be in them we
38:08need leadership that
38:10that will actually explain that that
38:13joining modernity
38:14is not being an uncle tom
38:17is being a fuller more expansive human
38:20being
38:22so a final question from me before we
38:24turn to audience questions
38:26you've been critical of affirmative
38:28action as you just were
38:30in your earlier remarks and and in your
38:31writing for a long time so i but i just
38:33want to
38:34get a little bit close to home we're
38:36coming from a public university
38:38you would be of the view that in
38:40response to
38:42george floyd's death last summer the
38:46movement across higher education to
38:49basically double or triple down on
38:51affirmative action policies
38:52including in targeted hiring of faculty
38:56only for
38:57you know black americans could apply for
38:59certain faculty positions or
39:01doubling tripling down on affirmative
39:02action programs in other ways
39:05you you don't see those as ultimately
39:08paths for success
39:09either for the individuals or for
39:12the institutions or for american society
39:15generally
39:18was was segregation um okay whether
39:24did it enhance american society did did
39:27slavery enhance american society did
39:30it is it has to be understood that
39:32racism
39:33racism racial divisions
39:38no matter how we dress them up um
39:43are empty they don't they don't carry
39:46any meaning uh in and of themselves
39:49that i'm that i'm black doesn't really
39:51mean much it means
39:53you can presume certain things that i've
39:55experienced certain things
39:57uh um in my life that that people who
40:00aren't black
40:01didn't experience but that doesn't
40:03really get you very that doesn't really
40:05get you very far
40:07um and so i think you know that is the
40:10uh
40:11um i've been just being distracted over
40:15here a little bit
40:16um the last sentence you
40:20you you uh you mentioned
40:24could you mention that one again no well
40:25i do i think you gave an answer i'm
40:27actually going to turn now to audience
40:28questions because as usual for our our
40:30community
40:30we've got some terrific questions i'm
40:32going to begin with uh
40:34with our friend jim stoner uh from
40:36louisiana basically asking the question
40:39are you saying dr steele that
40:43race can be a positive and constructive
40:46element for example in thinking about
40:48the the past
40:50and thinking about culture but it
40:51shouldn't be a central element
40:54of public policy and thinking about
40:56america
40:58of the future is that a fair way of
40:59formulating your your view
41:02i i think the the danger
41:05nobody ever picks up race
41:09the matter of race without seeking
41:12using it to seek power
41:16it has no other existence at all
41:20it does it has no inherent meaning it's
41:23empty
41:23that's why it's so beautiful as an evil
41:27uh it can be used by anybody the lowest
41:30among us can
41:31can feel better by being a racist
41:34because racism is so empty
41:37so bereft of of of positive meaning of
41:41any meaning
41:41at all and so it's it's just it's an
41:44outgrowth
41:45of of the the
41:48the human desire the human need to have
41:51power over other people
41:53and whenever anybody uses it that's what
41:55they're doing
41:57every single time there are no
41:59exceptions it never is different
42:01affirmative action has been a disaster
42:04for black america um
42:09all these young i was so fortunate
42:12i came along just a few years before
42:14affirmative action came in so
42:16i never ran into i ran into i had to
42:18meet the same standards of other people
42:20and i couldn't go to certain schools
42:21because
42:22my test scores were that i went through
42:24all of that
42:25um and nobody ever uh when i was
42:29in college in graduate school nobody
42:31bent the rules for me
42:34nobody was invested in me succeeding
42:36because i was black
42:39i was lucky i was lucky i i went to
42:42school it was perfect for me i went to
42:44i got a great education there um
42:49again that's white guilt social reform
42:52because
42:53affirmative action helped well we whites
42:56can then say well we send them to school
42:58they're they're at the top that you know
43:00my kid can't get in there but black kids
43:02can
43:03look how good we are and yet the blacks
43:07are struggling when they're in there
43:08they're not
43:09and they doubt themselves many have used
43:12the term with me when i've spoken on
43:14campuses
43:15they will say to me because i didn't i
43:17came along before affirmative action
43:19they will say to me you're the real
43:21thing
43:24you think about how chilling that is
43:28i'm the real thing just because
43:31i i the the the white man didn't
43:34didn't touch me he didn't he didn't he
43:37didn't boost me along
43:39put me in a little bit over my head so
43:41forth
43:42it's it's my my point is is that this
43:45kind of reform
43:47is the most virulent the most vicious
43:50kind of racism
43:52because it it engages the sympathy
43:56of the of the victim it makes these
43:59college kids think they're getting
44:00something special because they're black
44:03and then you'd have to tell them years
44:04later that being black is not special
44:08there's nothing special in being black
44:12or being white race is empty
44:18why can't we accept that because we
44:21all in some way or another want power
44:25so if i can't use it this way i'll find
44:27another way to use
44:29but i'm uh i'm not going to take that
44:31out of my race out of my trick bag i
44:33i need it and so universities
44:36corporations
44:37the government all rush to it
44:40and find ways to use it to seek power
44:44then nobody leaves it alone it's too
44:46inviting it's too tempting
44:48so if people will say well i use it for
44:50the good not the bad
44:51no there is no good
44:54any time you use it down the line
44:58usually very quickly you will run into
45:00corruption
45:02you you will you will face a corruption
45:05now you've got
45:06a generation of black college kids
45:10in self-doubt haven't had an
45:14opportunity to prove their own worth
45:17their own dignity you stole that from
45:20them
45:21telling yourself you were wonderful in
45:23doing so
45:25would you do that to your own kids
45:30uh it's race is never ever
45:34and that's the there's we have to apply
45:36and my feeling is a
45:37a certain absolutism to it it's it can
45:40never be entertained it'll it will take
45:42you
45:43you know to hell in in a hand basket
45:46very quickly
45:48okay thank you for that i'm going to uh
45:51skip over some questions that get at
45:53various aspects of that
45:55response and shift to a question from
45:57our friend peter myers who we
45:58interviewed
45:59earlier in this series in the fall uh a
46:03scholar expert in african-american or
46:05black uh political thought we did a
46:07session on frederick douglass and peter
46:08was one of our guests
46:10danielle allen was the other so he asks
46:13um
46:14setting it up you were dr steele's been
46:16eloquent about
46:17all that can be learned from the black
46:18contribution to american moral and
46:20political thought intellectual culture
46:22especially
46:22malcolm x his specific question could
46:25you say a word about ralph ellison
46:27what ellison means to you as an author a
46:30literary figure
46:32a political thinker how much time do we
46:35have
46:37we only have about 10 minutes
46:42i have a pantheon of of three to my top
46:45three greatest writers
46:47who were for me that have ever
46:50lived sao bello was one of them vs nypal
46:53is another one and at the very top of
46:56the list is ralph ellison
46:58who taught me virtually everything i
47:02know
47:03whose work i have absorbed who
47:06who really helped me understand
47:10race in ways that um
47:13i never came close to understanding
47:16before
47:17um ralph ellison was his
47:20own man nobody
47:23gave him anything he transformed himself
47:26from a poor
47:27black kid no growing up in oklahoma city
47:30to the man who i believe wrote the
47:33greatest american novel ever written
47:35the invisible man some people would say
47:38no the greatest was
47:39moby dick well you can quibble i'll i'll
47:41take invisible man i think it was more
47:43complex i think it was richer
47:46it looked it looked more deeply into the
47:48human conditions
47:49than even then moby dick which
47:52is obviously uh a flawless magical piece
47:56of work
47:57um but ellison gave me a sense
48:02of of the the range of black
48:05possibility for people for americans who
48:08were black
48:10i grew up again in segregation it was
48:12nice to know
48:13to to see i like james baldwin the early
48:17james baldwin very much
48:19uh and still admire have it have a
48:22strong affection for for baldwin's early
48:24work
48:26uh but when you look at
48:29ralph ellison in the sense of the the
48:31irony
48:33at the heart of the black experience
48:35from the opening of the invisible man
48:36all right i'll i'll get lost here
48:39and start lecturing but
48:43he he showed me how the black
48:46experience fit into the human condition
48:51he didn't do it the reverse said no
48:53blackness is special and i'm going to
48:54show you how black people became
48:56they'll be improved if they become go
48:58with black power he didn't do that
49:01he said no you know we're
49:04we're human every single thing
49:08we do is human
49:12black people do all kinds of things
49:14whatever they do it's
49:16human and you approach that culture
49:19you approach black people as you
49:21approach irish people as you approach
49:23anybody as human first
49:27even as they're expressing their
49:29ethnicity
49:30uh they're being human humans do that
49:33kind of thing
49:35uh and uh why and
49:38and so in under looking at the black
49:41characters invisible man you be you are
49:43enlightened about
49:46human the human experience uh so i
49:50almost shut up there because no thank
49:52you so much
49:53i just am a great admirer of that man
49:56that is great to hear i'm going to try
49:58and sneak in two
49:59questions here each of which you could
50:01spend 30 minutes on a piece but
50:04an audience member is asking are there
50:08any
50:08constructive social policies you would
50:11recommend
50:12to address race relations in america or
50:16are you in effect saying we just need
50:19to not have social policies about race
50:22per se
50:23that would be the best path forward i
50:25certainly would say that we should not
50:27have
50:27race policies uh uh per se
50:30um what was the first part though you
50:33mentioned well just you know
50:34you you were critical of you've been
50:36critical of many oh yes
50:37social and political policies that focus
50:40on race are you saying there really are
50:42not
50:42any race-focused policies
50:45in in public life uh and even in you
50:48know major elite institutions even if
50:50it's a private university in harvard
50:52um or are there some that would be
50:54constructed but i think your answer is
50:56they really are not i think the i think
50:59that the test of
51:00of uh of social policies uh
51:04always is for me at any rate what they
51:07ask
51:08of the people they're claiming to help
51:12we know white the first mark of white
51:15guilt
51:16social policies is that they never ask
51:18anything of the minorities
51:20they're claiming to help they never ask
51:22they never say
51:24we'll give you this but it's on the
51:25condition that you achieve
51:27this they just say we'll give it to you
51:32well you know when they give you people
51:34give you something like that in human
51:36affairs they're
51:36they're dominating you that they're
51:39they're treating you as an
51:40inferior or somebody they have complete
51:42control on and on and on
51:44um you you ha
51:48if you're not asking people with social
51:51policy
51:52then you are oppressing them
51:55you're giving them no opportunity to to
51:58be great
51:59to show you how how how talented what
52:02they can do uh
52:04and you're condescending and patronizing
52:07um and you t you just teach them
52:10to manipulate you you know you don't
52:13um and and again
52:17institut suppose we had said to people
52:20who got
52:21with affirmative action uh well
52:24look we'll give you affirmative action
52:26but you have to have a
52:27b plus average you get a b average
52:30you're out
52:34because we're interested actually in you
52:36developing
52:39and if we just give you affirmative
52:40action and you come into the university
52:42and you go straight to the bottom of
52:44your class and you stay there
52:45until you drop out that's the no that's
52:49what we've done
52:50that's white guilt white guilt doesn't
52:52care about you
52:54it cares about being able to say it gave
52:56you affirmative action
52:59um so let me finish with this several
53:02questions
53:03are are asking if in effect you are
53:06suggesting we should be focused in the
53:08area of culture
53:10or not laws not public policy
53:13to produce a healthier racial relations
53:16in the united states what are some
53:19particular constructive steps
53:22in the area of of culture individuals or
53:24or
53:25institutions that are not government
53:26institutions what would you recommend
53:29don't move ahead in american life as a
53:31black or as a minority move ahead in
53:33american life as an individual american
53:35citizen
53:37what makes sense for you who are you
53:40what do you love to do
53:42what are your interests in life what
53:45would be fulfillment to you
53:46who do you know who's actually living in
53:49a way that would be
53:50that would be attractive to you um
53:53the the matter of of being black
53:57uh should never enter your mind
54:01should never enter your mind then you'll
54:02be what god
54:04enables you you'll be a unique human
54:06being
54:08but if you if you waste time trying to
54:11fulfill some collective obligation to
54:14blackness
54:16then you'll you you you you will you'll
54:19fail you won't succeed and you'll
54:22you will have wasted an opportunity um
54:25so i the this doesn't in other words
54:28does
54:29this my rule of thumb is there's no
54:32magic
54:33there's no magic really in life you make
54:35your life
54:37and it's going to be whatever you make
54:39it uh
54:41it's and there are no miracles you know
54:43they we
54:46the heavens just don't open and make you
54:48this or make you that
54:49you you have to live as a free
54:51individual which is a blessing
54:54in a society that is people from all
54:56over the world want to come here to do
54:58just exactly
54:59what you have the opportunity to do what
55:02do you want to do
55:03uh and uh
55:07that message would come through cultural
55:09institutions educational institutions
55:11but it would come from everything
55:12every government policy or uh don't tell
55:15me when i go to school what religion i
55:17should follow and don't tell me anything
55:19about what i owe my race
55:22you don't i don't want to hear it and
55:25then let me sneak in one last question
55:27since several audience members are
55:28asking this question
55:29you did talk about your views about
55:32white guilt and white fragility
55:34and the new the anti-racism movement
55:37but um we didn't specifically talk about
55:39black lives matter so
55:40a few questions are coming in the queue
55:43about that
55:44your view of the black lives matter
55:46social political movement
55:52i wrote a piece on this what fascinates
55:55me about them is
56:01they identities everything to them
56:03blackness
56:04uh and and so forth
56:07um they believe
56:11deeply and absolutely that blacks are
56:14victims of systemic racism in the united
56:16states of america
56:18that that's our faith and that that's
56:20who we are
56:22when you believe that the center of your
56:24identity is victimization
56:29then you you put yourself in a situation
56:32where you
56:32you begin to live like a victim
56:35in other words you become a victim you
56:38don't think for yourself anymore
56:40you just conform you go along with what
56:43what
56:44other seems to be poppy what other
56:46blacks are are doing of course then
56:48again
56:48white guilt will encourage you in in
56:51that
56:52and so you're trying to make a life out
56:53of out of protest and victimization
56:59it's impossible you can't you can't and
57:02so and so therefore you
57:04and you feel inside is is a right you
57:07feel
57:07in uh inauthentic if you don't if you're
57:10not a real
57:11as a black person you you feel
57:13inauthentic if you're not a victim of
57:15racism
57:16so you literally celebrate victimization
57:20you you scream it from the hilltops you
57:23judge
57:24your your peers
57:27on how how deeply ensconced in
57:30victimization they are
57:35and we're wasting it black lives matter
57:37is wasting another generation
57:40we should be freeing each other as
57:43individuals
57:44go for it you want to do this this
57:46interest you follow it go for it
57:48learn go to school get get yourself
57:51drink gets
57:52get a get a life that makes you
57:55happy that makes you gives you
57:58self-respect
58:00self-respect um that you're black
58:04don't waste your time uh of course we're
58:07gonna you're gonna look you're gonna
58:08born that way and you're gonna die that
58:10way
58:11uh there's there's there's you got that
58:14covered
58:15it's it's uh you know you that's in the
58:18bag you're
58:18you're you you don't have to worry about
58:20doing anything special be black
58:23um be bigger than that
58:27and uh encourage you your peers to be
58:29bigger than that that should be
58:31the the the uh
58:35you know the beck and call of of of
58:37young blacks it seems to me today is
58:40enormous uh they're
58:43virtually drowned in possibility and and
58:46opportunities that just
58:49inconceivable to me when i was a young
58:51when i was
58:52in college and so forth they're now wide
58:54open
58:55boy um celebrate that
59:00well thank you i regret we have run out
59:02of time i have a few
59:04closing remarks before i give you a
59:06final word of thanks
59:08so thank you to everyone in our audience
59:10for joining us for this seventh webinar
59:13in our theme this year in the civic
59:14discourse project on race justice and
59:17leadership in america
59:19we ask you please to check the video
59:20catalog on our website
59:22that's sketch.asu.edu
59:26we have recordings of the first six
59:28webinars in the series
59:30ranging from discussions about george
59:31washington frederick douglass
59:33abraham lincoln to my discussions with
59:37contemporary
59:37writers on race relations in america
59:39randall kennedy of harvard law school
59:42our annual martin luther king lecture
59:44event with thomas chatterton williams my
59:46discussion with glenn
59:48lowry of brown university and in just a
59:50day or two we'll have the archive of
59:51this discussion with
59:53shelby steele you can also check our
59:55website for information on our final
59:57event in the race justice and leadership
59:59series coming
1:00:00uh next month we'll be having a
1:00:03discussion
1:00:04about booker t washington and w.e.b du
1:00:07bois
1:00:08my colleague adam seagrave from the
1:00:11school of civic and economic thought and
1:00:12leadership will be serving as moderator
1:00:14for that
1:00:15session so as always i thank our
1:00:17colleagues in the school who made this
1:00:19webinar
1:00:20possible dr carol mcnamara joe
1:00:23our associate director for public
1:00:24programs joe martin our communications
1:00:26manager
1:00:27and our zoom wizard and morgan radick
1:00:30from our events team
1:00:32great thanks again to shelby steele our
1:00:35guest for sharing his expertise and his
1:00:38insights
1:00:39thank you again to everyone for joining
1:00:40us tonight
1:00:42be well and good night great thank you
1:00:46thank you so much

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