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The end of race politics — Transcript

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0:00this is the reason interview with Nick
0:05gespi all
0:08right all right thank you so much and uh
0:11my guest right now is Coleman Hughes a
0:1627-year-old uh I don't know what you are
0:19you're like you are a uh you're a jazz
0:23player you're a trombonist you're a
0:25podcaster you're an author you are a
0:28cause celeb you're kind of an instigator
0:32uh you you've done it all right I
0:34suppose so I don't think I instigate but
0:37people seem to disagree yeah Wherever
0:40You Are Trouble Follows which is pretty
0:42good um you went to juliard for a while
0:45as well as and then you graduated from
0:47Columbia yep I was at juliard for a few
0:50months and then decided nobody really
0:52learns music in school yeah and no one
0:55really learns anything in music school
0:57so I decided to Pivot and I still play
1:00music to this day but did you learn
1:02anything at
1:05Columbia I don't know you know that I
1:07mean it I mean I guess you learned how
1:09to pull things off of poles and things
1:11like that right and demonstration I
1:12learned how to pull pull down hostage
1:14posters and lost puppy dog posters and
1:16all all the rest you were also uh you
1:19know his podcast is conversations with
1:21Coleman and we're going to talk about
1:22that in a little bit um but uh he's also
1:25got a book coming out in February called
1:29uh the end of race politics argument
1:31Arguments for a colorblind America um
1:35let's start with that what you know
1:37briefly what is the case for a
1:39colorblind America well first of all I'm
1:42very happy to be here I'm uh happy to be
1:44in front of a Libertarian audience years
1:46ago I remember seeing a an article which
1:49said that Libertarians of all political
1:51factions have the highest
1:53IQs I don't know if that's true yeah I
1:57don't think it is it's not true yeah as
1:59somebody who I've spent 30 years hanging
2:01out with Libertarians I don't know well
2:05I was hoping I wouldn't have to dumb
2:06myself down but I
2:08I um yeah please for our sake speak
2:11[Laughter]
2:13slower so what is the what is the case
2:15for color blindness in a
2:19nutshell uh we are human beings and
2:23despite the uh you know despite the
2:26philosophies of people like Michelle
2:28Fuko and others who I know you have some
2:30admiration for there is such a thing as
2:32human nature one of the uglier elements
2:36is is
2:37tribalism um the tendency to form tribes
2:40based around you know any variable
2:44really but ethnicity and race to devalue
2:47the lives of others to
2:49compete and this has played out in
2:52history everything from you know
2:54genocide at the worst end to just
2:58everyday social mistrust um at the low
3:03end in
3:04America unlike most places with which
3:07have defined the concept of a Nation
3:10around an ethnicity whether people will
3:13admit it or not America has tried to do
3:15something different where you can come
3:17to this country be any race color or
3:19Creed and Define yourself as an
3:22American this is a fragile experiment
3:25it's not uh it's not an easy experiment
3:28it's something with without precedent
3:32and one of the one of the challenges
3:34that result is that we all have to
3:37figure out how to live with each other
3:39um and trade with each other and
3:43befriend each other and and so
3:45forth without succumbing to our worst
3:48tribal instincts some of it's inevitable
3:51but the question is how should the state
3:54minimize
3:55this now the answer that arose during
3:59the Civil Rights Movement from people
4:01like Martin Luther King by Rustin going
4:04back to A Philip Randolph was
4:06essentially that the state should not
4:10make any laws that take race into
4:12account one way or the other you should
4:14not try to discriminate against people
4:17really for any reason you should not try
4:19to discriminate to repay people for past
4:23discrimination there should be something
4:25which I borrow from David berstein which
4:27is called the separation of race and
4:28State
4:31and in the long run this is the best way
4:33to govern this fragile experiment so uh
4:36two things one is you know when you say
4:40okay so year zero starts now because you
4:44know it is kind of just a brutal irony
4:46and a paradox of of America as a country
4:49that's founded on a Creed rather than
4:51you know an ethnic Identity or
4:54commonality and it also has the worst
4:57version of slavery where uh from uh my
5:00readings which I think are accurate I'm
5:02not sure but American slavery the really
5:05unique contribution was that the
5:07children of slaves were also slaves like
5:10in most other societies that was not
5:12necessarily the case but you know what
5:15do you do with that you know that is a
5:17brutal horrifying Paradox right that on
5:20the one hand you have people talking
5:21about finally this is a place where all
5:23men are created equal etc etc and by the
5:26way we have instituted the worst form of
5:29kind of race-based uh uh race-based cast
5:34system known to you know known to
5:36history up to that point without getting
5:38bogged down I I would quibble with the
5:40worst form because you know the the Arab
5:44world took some 14 million slaves from
5:47Africa into the Middle East the reason
5:49there's no black people as a
5:52subpopulation is because they died they
5:55were castrated they didn't leave
5:57Offspring Brazil unlike America had to
6:00repopulate itself with more and more
6:02slaves each generation CU they died off
6:04and they didn't bring famili so it's
6:06it's it's a complicated
6:09story I believe that uh in in the
6:12transition from the old world where
6:15slavery was normal everywhere on Earth
6:17there was no such word or concept as
6:20racism really until about a hundred
6:22years ago
6:23because there it wasn't a pathology it
6:25was just the norm in the transition from
6:28the old world to the new world that we
6:30all prefer to live in which is a world
6:32of Human Rights Classical liberalism and
6:34so for individualism I think there's
6:36bound to be a period of
6:39hypocrisy so there there's no other way
6:41to make progress such massive progress
6:44without there being a period of
6:45hypocracy in between and I do not hold
6:47that against the American
6:49project um a lot of people now will say
6:53um you know and we'll get to this in a
6:55second talking about color blindness as
6:58the goal of somebody like Martin Luther
6:59King or a generation of leaders in the
7:02Civil Rights Movement people now reject
7:06the idea that color blindness is even
7:09possible um where you obviously don't
7:12agree with that U maybe you could
7:14explain why and where does that come
7:16from the idea that we will never get to
7:19a place where we are actually dealing
7:21with individual uh each other as
7:23individuals we only ultimately see each
7:26other as markers of some group identity
7:28that overwhelms whatever particularity
7:31we might have in any in any you know
7:33specific
7:35instance well first I would concede that
7:37most of all most of our ideals are
7:40unattainable uh if I were to sit here
7:42and say I want a peaceful Society no one
7:45would mistake that for the belief that
7:47we will actually get to a society with
7:49zero murders per year it's never
7:51happened right we take that as a kind of
7:54north star that guides us when we are
7:57choosing between A and B whether whether
7:59in Life or in public policy I view color
8:02blindness the same way I'm under No
8:04Illusion that Humanity will completely
8:06eradicate the racial tribal instinct or
8:10racism or bigotry itself but I feel that
8:14color blindness it's the north star that
8:17we should use when making decisions
8:19about public policy interpersonal and so
8:22forth as for the second question where
8:24does this idea um come from that it's
8:27it's no longer the
8:30goal uh in the 60s there was a consensus
8:33for a short period of time that color
8:35blindness was the way to go this was the
8:37high era of the high classical Civil
8:40Rights Movement if you if you want to
8:41call it that shortly after that the
8:45country experienced massive
8:47rioting the likes of which was basically
8:50not seen again until like Rodney King
8:52and then
8:532020 and uh you know in the 70s
8:57something started brewing in the cies
8:59called critical race Theory um the
9:02brainchild of Derek Bell and Kimberly
9:06krenshaw which basically agreed with the
9:11white supremacists on the
9:13fundamental idea that race is always
9:15going to be everything these naive
9:18people that think we can aspire to
9:19something higher than being obsessed
9:21with race are exactly that they're naive
9:25and the only thing you should do in life
9:27is hunker down into the tribe in which
9:28you born and try to get as much power as
9:31possible and um as as Logan Roy from
9:35succession said life is a a fight a
9:39fight for a knife in the mud yeah so
9:43that's what life is except I was really
9:45hoping if you're were going to quote HBO
9:47series you would have gone with sex in
9:48the city but um you know we're not there
9:51yet as a society right I heard this was
9:53a PG show so um you um uh you talk about
10:00um you know so race-based affirmative
10:03action or race-based policies are
10:05definitely out anything that is based on
10:07that kind of a kind of immutable
10:09characteristic I guess um but you do
10:11talk a lot about class-based uh programs
10:15that will help level things out or help
10:16people who don't have opportunities get
10:18opportunities can you sketch out what
10:21what what are those programs uh you know
10:23what do they look like and what
10:25justifies that as opposed to you know
10:29color blindness is out but but class
10:31Consciousness is
10:33it yes
10:35so fundamentally I think
10:39that and I I overuse the word class it's
10:43not really precise
10:45socioeconomics in general um how much
10:48money you make income
10:51wealth this is a much closer proxy for
10:56disadvantage than racial identity is in
11:00other
11:01words if you pick 10 people from the
11:03country at random from Kansas from New
11:06York from and you wanted to rank them by
11:10privilege right which is a little bit of
11:13a you can question the project to begin
11:16with but if we're going to do that
11:18project it's wiser to use their
11:21socioeconomics than to assume that the
11:25black people are at one end the white
11:26people are on the other um to to lump in
11:29a white white guy from from a you
11:33know proverbial trailer park in Arizona
11:37with uh a black kid like me that grew up
11:39in a wealthy suburb of New York whereas
11:43using socioeconomics you're getting
11:45closer imperfect as well but much closer
11:48to what we mean when we say someone is
11:50disadvantaged so then what are the what
11:53are the kind of uh benefits that
11:55somebody would get say if you know I
11:57don't know they're lower middle class or
11:58or their lowincome uh what are what are
12:01the types of programs that you envision
12:03that would be helpful to make Society
12:06better so this is I mean as as a
12:09philosopher I have the luxury of
12:11painting the abstract picture without
12:14filling in all the
12:16details but look there are already there
12:19are there are already um social programs
12:22that are far more you know uh widely
12:26subscribed and popular like earned
12:28income tax credit need-based financial
12:30aid in in
12:32colleges
12:33that not going to argue that they're
12:35perfect but they are they're based on a
12:39scheme that is generally more correctly
12:42identifying the people that have less
12:44Advantage than the regime of race-based
12:47policies that has become normalized over
12:49the past 50 years do you how do you
12:52define yourself kind of ideologically uh
12:55or do you um and you know then what is
12:59kind of what's a theory of government is
13:02government there to help um you know is
13:05is it a night Watchman State um where it
13:08it's just there to maintain kind of
13:10property rights and to uh adjudicate
13:13disputes between people is it there to
13:16make sure that all people participate or
13:18can participate um could you talk a
13:21little bit about that it's a good
13:22question truthfully I found every theory
13:25of government to be insufficient
13:29so I I'm not a subscriber of any
13:32particular Theory um I i' I liked Tyler
13:37Cowan's idea of quote State capacity
13:39libertarianism quite a bit which was
13:42basically the idea that markets are
13:43fantastic they are the source of the
13:46world's wealth
13:48unlike many people would want to
13:50acknowledge but a lot of our problems
13:52today
13:54necessitate um having a a very
13:57functional State that's capable of
14:00occasionally doing big things and doing
14:02them efficiently and helping out I mean
14:05you know somebody who grows up below the
14:07poverty line and may not have both
14:09parents available or anything like we
14:12can we can give them a little to kind of
14:16so that they can participate more fully
14:17in absolutely have a safety net yeah um
14:21let's talk about TED okay the uh
14:24conference you famously and I say it's
14:28famously it's a fascinating story I
14:30suspect that many of you are familiar
14:31with it um it's partly famous because
14:34you've talked a lot about it and you
14:36have uh but um you were asked to give a
14:40talk at Ted about colorblindness um what
14:44happened so I I don't know if you've all
14:47heard of The Strand effect you've heard
14:50of that I think it was uh May begin the
14:52details wrong but I think some someone
14:54took a picture of Barbara str's house or
14:56something it was it's more comp yeah she
14:59she tried to she tried to get the
15:02California Coastal commission not to put
15:04her a picture of her property on a
15:07website that was available to the public
15:09and then by kicking a stink up about it
15:12it went from having been viewed by like
15:14five people to hundreds of thousands of
15:16people so Ted is the barbish drand of
15:21um and I don't mean the singing voice
15:24um so basically uh CH Chris Anderson
15:28invited me to come give a talk along the
15:30lines of what I've just been talking to
15:32you about I gave the talk and uh
15:36immediately on stage I saw a few a few
15:39people that were visibly upset by it
15:41sort of in the room but but largely the
15:44crowd thought it was within the bounds
15:46of acceptable
15:48conversation uh the next day I start
15:51getting some messages saying there's a
15:52group called black at Ted which is upset
15:56by my talk hurt I think is the word that
15:59was used and um I offered to talk to
16:03them and you know they didn't they
16:05didn't want to so on and so
16:08forth uh in a nutshell what happened is
16:12that rather than release my TED talk
16:15normally like they would any other they
16:18asked me
16:19to agree to a series of kind of strange
16:22release strategies where they would tag
16:25a rebuttal to my talk to the end of my
16:27talk in the same video or a debate that
16:31I participated in with someone else
16:33would be combined into the video all of
16:35which I thought was unfair since there
16:38were no factual errors no nothing like
16:41that um So eventually we we agreed that
16:44they would release my thing normally and
16:46then two weeks later I do a debate with
16:48somebody so I did the debate with Jamal
16:50Buie of the New York Times which you can
16:52you guys can all check out and that was
16:53staged by open to debate which I
16:56sometimes guess moderate for and it's a
16:58great debate I mean it's very good open
17:01to debate did a great job as they always
17:02do and um it came out but uh I'd put the
17:09whole thing behind me but then Tim Urban
17:11who's a great blogger also happens to
17:14have given the most view Ted Talk of all
17:16time on YouTube what is it about
17:19procrastination okay Al I knew I would I
17:22keep meaning to watch
17:23[Laughter]
17:26it so he tweeted
17:29uh that he's pretty sure Ted was
17:33intentionally sandbagging not
17:36promoting um
17:38selectively uh not amplifying my video
17:42because every other Ted Talk had you
17:45know minimum 400,000 views maximum
17:49800,000 mine strangely had 70,000 was
17:53the only outlier in the whole
17:55batch uh and so you know I I I at this
18:01point I went public about this because I
18:04had kept up my end of the
18:06bargain um and they
18:09hadn't and it ended up bringing much
18:12more positive attention to my video and
18:14negative attention to Ted uh and there's
18:17also an interlude where you know Adam
18:20Grant this University of Pennsylvania
18:23social psychologist yeah big social
18:25psychologist said that my talk was
18:27inaccurate using a meta analysis that
18:30really made no sense and then he got
18:32upset when uh his name was outed as
18:35having to having tried to sort of deeps
18:39my talk and it was a whole Fiasco which
18:42you know ended up bringing more
18:44attention to the whole thing but details
18:46aside the The crucial thing that
18:48happened is that Ted like many
18:50organizations is caught between a
18:52faction that believes in free speech and
18:54Viewpoint diversity and a faction that
18:56believes if you hurt my feelings with
18:58with even Center left center right or
19:01God forbid right-wing views you need to
19:04be censored um these are the the same
19:08kinds of people who say that speech is
19:10violence who say that they were actually
19:12hurt um or felt unsafe because of my TED
19:15Talk was the language that was used uh
19:18these are the same kinds of people right
19:19now that see Hamas Hamas slaughtering
19:22children in front of their mothers and
19:23say that that's that's not violence
19:26that's resistance right um but a poster
19:30of a hostage on a telephone poll hurts
19:33them yeah or my recycled Martin Luther
19:36King is an attack on their identity
19:38right so this whole this whole language
19:41unfortunately Chris was not he he didn't
19:45he didn't put his foot down with his
19:47staff in the way that he ought to have
19:50and I think he's taken a lot of heat and
19:53Ted has taken a hit from the outside
19:57world as a result um do you do you I
19:59mean it's it's a lot of extra work and
20:02things like that but do you feel like in
20:03the end um it worked to the benefit of
20:06your point of view and your ideas I
20:09think it did you know TR truthfully I I
20:12was engaged in good faith with it the
20:13entire time I was very happy to be
20:16invited to Ted I felt
20:18great with with 90 literally 99% of the
20:22Ted community of all colors came up to
20:24me after the talk and they they thought
20:27it was interesting it's it's really a
20:29situation of a heckler's veto there's a
20:32tiny minority of people that do not
20:33believe such views should be heard and
20:35they have outsize power and it when
20:38people aren't willing to stand up to it
20:40they it can make it seem like they're
20:41everyone yeah you did you experienced
20:44that as a student at Colombia as well I
20:46mean you were active and outspoken
20:49person I mean you really I mean it's
20:51incredibly impressive as an
20:53undergraduate you were already becoming
20:54a public
20:55intellectual um you know but what what
20:58was it like being a Colombia cuz that
21:00was kind of maybe or maybe not wor past
21:03Peak wokeness but you were an
21:05undergraduate there at a moment when
21:07college campuses were really into
21:10shouting people down cancel culture and
21:12things like that totally yeah I remember
21:15I I in college probably my second year
21:182017 I had a conversation with someone
21:21and we kind of realized that there was
21:24there was this moment in college where
21:27you sort of come out of the closet with
21:29a
21:30friend as not
21:33woke and you just you you you put
21:36yourself out there and you hope to God
21:38that they're also not woke and they're
21:39usually not that's the thing most of the
21:42time almost the the the vast majority of
21:46of kids on these college campuses are
21:48not hookline and sinker woke in the
21:50sense that they believe speech is
21:52violence that they believe um asking
21:55somebody where they're from is racist uh
21:59all of this stuff but there's a radical
22:03let's call it 5% I would really call it
22:055% maybe 10% but there's a there's a
22:09radical Fringe that is very loud and
22:12very confident why do you think you know
22:14in college campuses it seems like the
22:17administrators are totally oh yeah like
22:19those 5% 5% speak for everybody or it
22:24you know it it just seems like the
22:25adults in the room or in the system have
22:28given up and they're like okay yeah
22:29we're scared too where does that come
22:31from I think you said it I think they're
22:33scared too you know they they have a
22:37they in this culture they have quite a
22:39bit to lose especially the
22:42administrators the the the
22:43administrators have everything to lose
22:45if they get a reputation as a racist the
22:48RW that could if not end their career it
22:51could derange the next five years of
22:52their life to have a single article on
22:54the internet calling you a racist for
22:56any reason doesn't doesn't have to be
22:59good a good reason I know there was I
23:01can't remember which school in
23:02California it was maybe you'll remember
23:04but there was the the example of the
23:06college professor the Mandarin Professor
23:08who was teaching the word naiga naiga
23:11which is like a in Mandarin it's like uh
23:14it's like saying that uh it's like
23:16saying um almost you'll hear if you go
23:18well we're almost in Chinatown but
23:20you'll hear people say it all the time
23:21if you say it quick you know when I walk
23:23through neighborhoods I don't see
23:26race it's all little lit L to
23:29me well anyway he got suspended for
23:32saying a a normal Mandarin word that
23:35sort of sounds like the n-word with a
23:37soft a in
23:39English most most people they they see
23:41things like this happen over and over
23:43again and they think look I I have a
23:45family I have a life I
23:47don't I can't I can't lose all of it
23:49like so and and they're not necessarily
23:53responsive to donors um administrators I
23:56mean um so so they they do a cost
24:00benefit and this is how this is how um a
24:04small group of people can take over a
24:06culture or impose tabos over a whole
24:09culture that some 90% of people disagree
24:13with um you mentioned uh a couple of
24:16times uh Martin Luther King Jr um he's
24:20obviously one of the most uh important
24:22people in your kind of intellectual
24:24firmament what you know what draws you
24:26to Martin Luther King
24:30well he's he's really
24:32uh he's a rare figure for a few
24:36reasons one
24:38is the the depth and breadth of his
24:43knowledge he he has a great essay called
24:46my pilgrimage to non-violence where he
24:49explains in detail what it is that he
24:52learned from Plato what it is that he
24:54learned from Kant from Marx uh why he
24:58rejected
25:00Marxism um how he integrated all of the
25:04uh what Western European Canon into his
25:08line of thought and then also brought
25:11with it uh the the kind of Baptist
25:16preacher element integrated all of it in
25:20a way that was rigorous and inspiring to
25:25uh blacks and whites alike
25:28and not only that successfully
25:30implemented a political program which is
25:32a totally different skill
25:34set um he he gave he gave the country
25:38Goosebumps and and changed the country
25:41as a result
25:42fundamentally uh it it's something very
25:45few people could
25:47accomplish and um are you are you
25:50religious at all or Christian at all no
25:52you cuz that is like a huge part of his
25:55rhetoric right I mean and and you know
25:58the the figure of Jesus uh forgiveness
26:01uh Salvation things like that I mean he
26:04he offered a deliverance from sin
26:07whereas it seems like part of the woke
26:10narrative or woke rhetoric is that we
26:12are all sinners but there's no way to
26:14you know get past
26:16that so I I I'm a secular person I'm an
26:20atheist I can't bring myself to believe
26:22in any any of the man-made books but
26:28it's a big butt I believe that secular
26:31and SEC secular
26:34people want to sanitize the Christian
26:37element of of Martin Luther
26:39King because to admit that his
26:42Christianity was a core part of his
26:46success would cast doubt
26:49on um on the hope that secularism can
26:55can stand on its own two feet what do I
26:58mean by that I mean when Martin Luther
27:01King got up there and said in Christ
27:03there is neither Greek nor Jew black nor
27:07white Bond nor
27:09free that made sense and gave Goosebumps
27:12to the black public to the white public
27:14Etc he was speaking a language that
27:17people understood not just in their
27:18prefrontal cortexes but in in their
27:21hearts there's no secular equivalent to
27:24that statement that really resonates
27:27with people to such an extent and that's
27:30a problem for someone like me who is
27:32trying to update in many ways MLK which
27:36is that I'm not a Christian I can't
27:38speak that language honestly and even if
27:41I could the country isn't Christian
27:44enough to resonate with it now in the
27:46place of Christianity instead of uh
27:50instead of rational Enlightenment
27:54liberalism completely filling the void
27:56it has filled that void but what has
27:58also partly filled the void is woke
28:00social justice ideology and Robin
28:03D'Angelo ISM which as as John mcar and
28:06many others have pointed out is a kind
28:08of
28:09replacement replacement Christianity
28:11instead of original sin it's white
28:14guilt they're different ideas but
28:16they're the same shape in the puzzle of
28:19of the mind and uh you know it's it's a
28:23it's a um a flaw that you can
28:26never uh that you can never get rid of
28:29but you have to make weekly or you know
28:33um um weekly
28:37um uh um visits to whether it be church
28:41or or a Dei session in order to
28:44constantly fight in other words you can
28:45never get rid of it but you have to
28:47fight it your entire life right yeah um
28:50another person that you've mentioned is
28:53Bay Rustin who was one of King's uh you
28:56know kind of bleeding lights uh as a
28:58fascinating figure and I forget when it
29:00was years ago you did a uh video opet
29:04about Bay russing for the New York Times
29:06uh which is tremendous there's also a
29:08Netflix I can't remember now if it's a
29:10documentary or a narrative film naril
29:13about Rustin yeah but who is Beed Rustin
29:15and why does he matter so much byed
29:18rustin's he he's one of my great
29:20intellectual Heroes probably more so
29:23than King even he was
29:25um he was born in
29:28Pennsylvania raised by his grandparents
29:30who he thought were his parents for most
29:33of his
29:34life uh was a communist very briefly and
29:37and then a socialist and civil rights
29:40organizer in the
29:421940s and uh he was uh you know this is
29:47one of the interesting things like Rosa
29:49Parks is remembered for refusing to give
29:51up her
29:52seat on the refusing to give up her seat
29:55on the front of the bus and go to the
29:56back
29:58many people had done this before Rosa
29:59Parks she was not the first to do this
30:01right by Rustin did this 13 years before
30:04she did and got beaten to a pulp by the
30:07by the by the cops because of it Rosa
30:09Parks was just the one um lucky enough
30:12to make the history book the country was
30:14ready in in other words so he was right
30:17there from the beginning he ends up
30:19getting involved with Martin Luther King
30:21and helping him start his organization
30:23the southern Christian leadership ship
30:25conference though he omitted the word
30:27Christian initially because Rustin was a
30:30Quaker
30:32um he organized and and led the March on
30:35Washington at which Martin Luther King
30:38gave his famous eye of a Dream speech he
30:40read The List of Demands at that
30:42event um and he was a just a beautiful
30:46essayist throughout the entire period
30:48that very few people know about
30:52um an important fact about why he isn't
30:56known more is he was was openly gay and
30:58he was arrested uh he was arrested for
31:01being caught in a car with a
31:03man and in fact Dr King was blackmailed
31:08by Adam Clayton Powell um who there's a
31:11to this day a Boulevard named after in
31:13Harlem was blackmailed by Adam Clayton
31:16Powell who threatened to expose a
31:17fictional gay Affair between Rustin and
31:19King if they didn't cancel a planned
31:22protest on the DNC Rustin is incredible
31:25because he's unapologetically black and
31:27gay at a time when those were really
31:29dangerous he refused to fight in World
31:32War II as country he wouldn't even
31:35register to get conscientious objector
31:38status because he thought the state did
31:40not have that claim on him although
31:42that's not really what I admire about
31:44him and he later rescinded his hardcore
31:48pacifism um what I really admire about
31:51him is that he was more active and more
31:55passionate than anyone you could name in
31:58American history about getting black
32:00people full human rights but he was also
32:03completely clear about the fact that
32:05race is not what's important and when
32:08the Black Power movement came along in
32:10the late 60s and started saying that
32:12actually we don't want equality we want
32:14more we believe black people are not
32:17just equal to white people but better he
32:20was very cleare eyed in saying that this
32:24this is evil this is not just this is
32:27not something for radical chic white
32:30liberals to sort of pay lip service to
32:33this is an evil on the horizon if we
32:35allow allow it to fester and he he drew
32:37that line very clearly in a way um that
32:42that too few people have courage to uh
32:45you know one of the um attributes of
32:49these salons that we're doing here um we
32:52like to talk to people who are trying to
32:54make good faith arguments regardless of
32:56what you're commitments are and things
32:58like that and uh you know with that
33:01announcement I want to uh talk a little
33:02bit about your podcast conversations
33:04with Coleman which is remarkable um in
33:08its you know for its equin
33:10equinity um you have people on that you
33:13agree with you have people on that you
33:15disagree with um you know uh how do you
33:20you know where did that come from
33:21because this um you know this is rare
33:25most people you know when you have a pod
33:27you have somebody on who you completely
33:29agree with or else it becomes a kind of
33:32you know Billow riy kind of shoutfest um
33:35where where does that model come
33:37from I guess I I always like to think as
33:40a consumer I I prefer to hear people
33:45disagreeing in good faith than two
33:47people agreeing in good faith most of
33:49the time it's more interesting it's also
33:53scarcer so when done well a marketing PL
33:59no no actually you know I think it it's
34:02it's it's um it's scarce because it's
34:07it's so rare to get two people in public
34:09conversation when the cameras are on
34:11that are willing to strongly disagree
34:14about something without constant
34:16Interruption and following kind of like
34:18the the the rules of argument if you
34:21will which is I'm going to steal man you
34:23you're going to steal man me I don't do
34:25it enough on my podcast I would like to
34:27do it more but it's act it is actually
34:29difficult to find the right Partners
34:31It's like because a lot of times you you
34:33talk past each other or you're it's
34:35almost like you're not listening to One
34:37yes and all of that's Amplified when the
34:39cameras are on turn the cameras off
34:42often you find someone is a different
34:44totally different person perfectly
34:46capable buddy yeah not you that's true
34:48true um you know uh some of the recent
34:52episodes that you've had on or or
34:54rebroadcast um after the Hamas attacks
34:58in Israel on October 7th one of the
35:00thing uh you know that I I find you
35:03reran an older episode with an Israeli
35:05historian Benny Morris um who is an
35:09interesting figure because among certain
35:11Israelis they hate him because they
35:13think he's too critical of Israel among
35:15non- Israelis some people think he's an
35:17apologist for them can you talk a little
35:20bit about his message and why he you
35:23know he he's like a really interesting
35:25person to be talking to to or with at
35:28this point in time absolutely Benny
35:30Morris is um a rigorous and beautiful
35:35historian of the Israel Palestine
35:37conflict in particular the war in 1948
35:41and the leadup to
35:42it he more than anyone is responsible
35:45for
35:46unearthing what we would Now call
35:48Israel's war crimes against Palestinians
35:51in the 1948
35:54War for this
35:57he was
35:58blacklisted um or at the at the very
36:02least uh denounced by the majority of
36:05the Israeli
36:07uh Academy at the
36:10time uh and by the way I I I kind of put
36:13war crimes and scare quotes here because
36:15not to trivialize them but because the
36:17concept of a war crime was not really a
36:19thing in 1948 the Geneva Convention to
36:22which we refer now didn't happen till
36:2549
36:28um so he he Unearthed with brutal
36:32honesty what Israel did in the 1948 War
36:36Visa
36:37expelling you know some
36:4070 possibly a little bit more 70,000 or
36:43so Palestinians uh from their
36:46homes but as he has gone on he has not
36:51seen
36:52that admission as synonymous with saying
36:55that Israel
36:57is in the wrong he has a very bracing
37:00honesty about the fact that the
37:04Alternatives facing Israel at the time
37:07were
37:09expulsion of its a fifth
37:12column or genocide against its own
37:16people that's that's those are the
37:19Alternatives that that were being
37:22faced at the time and he the reason he's
37:25hated or criticized at the very least by
37:28both sides he's hated by some on the
37:30Israeli side because he he he will he's
37:35exposed some of those things that many
37:37Israelis have not wanted to
37:39admit but he defends them as the only
37:42realistic option that Israel
37:44had right and that's why he is called
37:47the worst possible names by people
37:49sympathetic to to Pal the Palestinians
37:53because at the end of the day and I
37:55think he's right about this Israel has
37:58always wanted peace more than
38:01Palestinians
38:02have they they atrocities to be found on
38:05both sides but there's not an
38:07equivalence to be found on both sides in
38:09terms of wanting a practical solution
38:11wanting a peaceful solution so he has
38:14been very clear that Israel is on one
38:16side of that while at the same time
38:18being very honest about the uglier parts
38:21of the history I think the figure that
38:23is usually uh given for displac pales
38:26say 700,000 right not 70,000 700 are
38:30700,000 are displaced 70,000 were
38:33expelled I see okay thank you yeah so
38:36this is the the myth on the Palestinian
38:38side has been that they were all
38:39expelled that's not true the the the old
38:42myth on the Israeli side was that none
38:44were expelled and Benny Morris has done
38:47the most careful research that roughly
38:49on10th of those that were displaced were
38:53expelled um you also and I want to I
38:57just I want to add context to this
38:58because I think it's
39:00important millions and millions of
39:02people were displaced and expelled by
39:04wars in the
39:051940s um millions of Germans were
39:08expelled from Poland after World War II
39:11when Poland took a chunk of
39:13land the the of those Millions the only
39:16people that maintain that they still
39:18have a right to return to the places
39:20where their parents or grandparents
39:21lived in the 1940s the only people are
39:24Palestinians so I think it's it's it's
39:27very crucial to understand the context
39:29of what war was in the 1940s before we
39:31had our modern concept of war crimes and
39:33the Alternatives that people actually
39:35faced at the time um you know I found
39:38that episode particularly you know
39:40really informative and and challenging
39:43and just kind of mind-blowing uh you
39:45also did a two-part episode with a Brit
39:48named Andrew gold about anti-Semitism
39:50and whatnot which is fascinating I
39:51highly recommend people check that out
39:54and then you you know and this this is
39:56part of what makes the the podcast great
39:58is that you asked your audience like who
40:01is a good person who's the best person I
40:03should talk to who would present a pro-
40:06Palestinian point of view in the current
40:08situation and you talked with a guy
40:10named yusaf uh man um how do you think
40:15that episode went and um you know again
40:18how how did how did did your audience
40:21respond well to that because it was it
40:23was uh charged uh kind of dialogue but I
40:27also found that incredibly um you know
40:29kind of mesmerizing and
40:31enlightening it's hard for me to know
40:34what the reaction is I get comments that
40:37say things like you know Yousef didn't
40:40acknowledge any of your
40:42points um I get comments that say things
40:44like Yousef was right about everything
40:46and you're ignorant about
40:49history um and I don't know how to
40:51balance these two at the end of the day
40:52I I get I but I get many comments that
40:54are just glad to have heard a debate
40:58where um both sides at least got a
41:02decent amount of air time a debate that
41:04felt a little bit better than cable news
41:07I would like to that that is the soft
41:09bigotry of low expectation true it
41:11really is it really is uh I'd like to do
41:14better I'd like to do more of those in
41:16the future and I'd like to challenge
41:17myself
41:18to um you know hand handle it better as
41:23well because it's um it's a difficult
41:26it's a difficult skill I feel maybe it's
41:28been atrophied by
41:30underuse in our society where we are
41:33less and less talking to people that
41:35disagree with us but Yousef is he he's
41:38someone that he doesn't even believe in
41:40a two-state solution he believes in a
41:41one-state
41:43solution uh with a right of return again
41:47this is something that no no one would
41:50take seriously for any other group of
41:52refugees from a war in the 1940s right
41:55of return for every Palestinian whose
41:57parent or grandparent lived somewhere on
42:00Israeli territory in
42:011948 which would create a demographic
42:04majority of Palestinians in
42:07Israel um and in my view would lead to
42:13an instant attack on the Jews of Israel
42:16a a bloody Civil War that would be
42:18horrible for for both
42:21sides uh but he feels that and I don't
42:25think I'm strongman him that if that
42:28were to happen What would result would
42:30be a a happy Society where people hold
42:34hands and there's no violence and
42:36everyone has
42:38rights and I think that this is
42:41profoundly naive um I think it's
42:44profoundly naive and that that was the
42:47Crux of our disagreement you know he
42:48didn't really want to talk about October
42:507th right I tried I tried to get him to
42:53talk about October 7th and and and the
42:56war he didn't really want to talk about
42:58it every time I brought it up he would
43:00go back to the history which is fine but
43:02I also feel it betrayed a bit of of
43:06embarrassment because how do you defend
43:08how do you defend the dismembering of
43:10children in front of their families the
43:12burning of entire families this is not
43:15this is not the behavior of Freedom
43:16Fighters This is the
43:18behavior of
43:20of Barbarian jihadis bent on genocide so
43:24I think it was a bit telling he didn't
43:26want to go there are there you know
43:29either from race relations in the United
43:31States or elsewhere are there models for
43:34you know the intensity of the Israeli
43:37Palestinian situation particularly now
43:40but really for the past 60 or 70 years
43:43are there um examples of good
43:47resolutions to this kind of uh you know
43:50seething conflict I don't know that
43:53there are any good resolutions but there
43:55are livable
43:57ones the partitioning of India and
43:59Pakistan was absolutely bloody and
44:02brutal the atrocities committed on both
44:05sides were uh in in the partition were
44:09akin to what Hamas did on October
44:147th
44:16um but that was a two-state
44:18solution that was a two-state solution
44:22and my point my point to youf is that
44:26the only realistic solution is a
44:29two-state solution but
44:31unfortunately Palestinian public
44:34opinion
44:35um has not been able to let go of of the
44:39dream of from the river to the sea that
44:42all of Palestine will be there so um
44:45this is this is the core of the dispute
44:48in my view uh hopefully you know that
44:51may not be true I uh there was uh in
44:53foreign affairs uh uh a piece that was
44:57written by people who run What's called
44:58the Arab barometer which had just it's
45:01an ongoing set of surveys and public
45:02opinion polls of uh people in various
45:05Arab countries and they had just
45:07completed a survey of people in Gaza and
45:10there a majority of people actually were
45:13you know said they were in favor of a
45:15two-state solution and only about 20%
45:17said they believed in a one-state
45:20solution that meant getting rid of
45:21Israel so we don't know and of course
45:23that's you know that's a thousand years
45:25ago now post yeah I mean I've seen a
45:27million polls it's it's hard to pick any
45:30one of them as as representative I think
45:33all right well um I for one I'm a huge
45:37uh admirer of what you're doing so thank
45:39you Coleman Hughes for talking of
45:42[Applause]
45:46[Music]
45:49reason

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